Towards the end of last week’s comment thread there were some very insightful questions about how Men and women communicate.
Jeremy:
Honestly, [Stingray], I’ve never met a woman who actually wanted…”deep meaningful conversations, often.” I think this is another lie that women tell themselves. What women seem to want, conversationally, is an authority figure. They want someone who can talk for hours about things they have no understanding of. They want to be intellectually dazzled more than participate in a “deep meaningful conversation.”
[…] To be honest, and this will sound like I’m being arrogant, most women I’ve spent any time conversing with are poorly-read, lacking creative thoughts, and have an abysmal understanding of politics and the world at large. Having said that, I still can’t stand it when women say nothing on a date.
Yohami:
”deep meaningful conversations” for a woman, means “emotional stuff about how I feel and what I want”, “reaffirmation and validation of my viewpoints” and of course “entertain me with stories that show me your character and make me feel good about myself for being with you”
So of course they want that often.
jf12:
Yohami, deep doesn’t mean just telling her how you feel about her feelings, it means also helping her to uncover her inner goodness in the way that she agonized for almost a few moments when she betrayed one friend at the expense of another. In other words, you hold your metaphorical conch of an echo chamber to her metaphorical ear and its solipsistic otoacoustic emissions, and she can hear what she wants to hear, deeply.
Stingray:
Woman are not good at and hate what men mean by a deep meaningful conversation. The argument and debate, presenting and then criticizing ideas, and the ad hominems (that so often you all can then get up from the table and it is ALL over). That is not our idea of deep conversation at all. Then the feelings are NOT good and most women hate it.
Deti:
And the last thing a woman wants in a “deep, meaningful conversation is for the guy to talk about things important to HIM or, even worse, about HIS feelings. HIS feelings, wants, needs, and desires are the LAST things she wants to talk about because that’s so….beta.
The best male friends I have share one or more common interests with me – a sport, a hobby, music, art, fishing, lifting, golf, etc. – and the best conversations I can remember with these friends occurred while we were engaged in some particular activity or event. Even just moving a friend into his new house; it’s about accomplishing something together and in that time relating about shit. When I lived in Florida some of the best conversations I had with my studio guys were during some project we had to collaborate on for a week or two.
Women, make time with the express purpose of talking between friends. Over coffee perhaps, but the act of communication is more important than the event or activity. Even a ‘stitch-and-bitch’ is simply an organized excuse to get together and relate. For women, communication is about context. They are rewarded by how that communication makes them feel. For Men communication is about content and they are rewarded by the interchange of information and ideas.
Women talk, Men do.
Josey Wales:
Women typically don’t give a shit about world affairs, history, etc. They just don’t seem interested in pondering, learning about, debating the big issues.
There has to be a bio/evo explanation for this, and my best guess is that women’s concerns/interests have always been more provincial, localized and trivial. Picture a bunch of women sitting around a campfire hen party cluck session in primitive societies… Sharing gossip as they threshed the grain or made clothes.
I’m inclined to agree this. It’s no secret that men and women’s brains are wired differently, but what’s interesting is the complementarity between between both sex’s brains. It’s a mistake to think that women’s neural predilections for emotion and intuitiveness is inherently a weakness or a liability, but it’s equally a mistake to think that men’s dispositions towards rationalism, problem solving and inventiveness.
Maps of neural circuitry showed that on average women’s brains were highly connected across the left and right hemispheres, in contrast to men’s brains, where the connections were typically stronger between the front and back regions.
Ragini Verma, a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania, said the greatest surprise was how much the findings supported old stereotypes, with men’s brains apparently wired more for perception and co-ordinated actions, and women’s for social skills and memory, making them better equipped for multitasking.
“If you look at functional studies, the left of the brain is more for logical thinking, the right of the brain is for more intuitive thinking. So if there’s a task that involves doing both of those things, it would seem that women are hardwired to do those better,” Verma said. “Women are better at intuitive thinking. Women are better at remembering things. When you talk, women are more emotionally involved – they will listen more.”
This pretty much confirms men and women’s communicative methods I outlined in The Medium is the Message:
We get frustrated because women communicate differently than we do. Women communicate covertly, men communicate overtly. Men convey information, women convey feeling. Men prioritize content, women prioritize context. One of the great obfuscations fostered by feminization in the last quarter-century is this expectation that women are every bit as rational and inclined to analytical problem solving as men. It’s result of an equalist mentality that misguides men into believing that women communicate no differently than men. That’s not to discount women as problem solvers in their own right, but it flies in the face how women set about a specifically feminine form of communication. Scientific study after study illustrating the natural capacity women have for exceptionally complex forms of communication (to the point of proving their neural pathways are wired differently) are proudly waved in by a feminized media as proof of women’s innate merits, yet as men, we’re expected to accept that she “means what she says, and she says what she means.” While more than a few women like to wear this as a badge of some kind of superiority, it doesn’t necessarily mean that what they communicate is more important, or how they communicate it is more efficient, just that they have a greater capacity to understand nuances of communication better than do men. One of the easiest illustrations of this generational gender switch is to observe the communication methods of the “strong” women the media portray in popular fiction today. How do we know she’s a strong woman? The first cue is she communicates in an overt, information centered, masculine manner.
From an evolutionary perspective, it’s likely that in our hunter-gatherer tribal roles had a hand in men and women’s communication differences. Men went to hunt together and practiced the coordinated actions for a cooperative goal. Bringing down a prey animal would have been a very information-crucial effort; in fact the earliest cave paintings were essentially records of a successful hunt and instructions on how to do it. Early men’s communication would necessarily have been content driven discourse or the tribe didn’t eat.
Similarly women’s communications would’ve been during gathering efforts and childcare. It would stand to reason that due to women’s more collectivist roles they would evolve to be more intuitive, and context oriented, rather than objective oriented. A common recognition in the manosphere is women’s predisposition toward collectivism and/or a more socialist bent to thinking about resource distribution. Whereas men tend to distribute rewards and resources primarily on merit, women have a tendency to spread resources collectively irrespective of merit. Again this predispositions is likely due to how women’s ‘hard-wiring’ evolved as part of the circumstances of their tribal roles.
Men Like Women
When a man attempts to communicate like a woman (context-primary), women associate him with the feminine (i.e. he talks like a woman). This subconsciously indicates to her that a guy is Beta and making concessions of his maleness to better identify with the feminine. When you read about angry women feeling duped by the Nice Guy, who was only ‘playing nice’ in order to earn her intimacies, that deception is rooted in a guy relating to women as a woman would.
As you’re probably guessing, with the rise of social feminization, post-sexual revolution, men have been socialized and acculturated to express themselves increasingly as a woman would. This is part of boys-men’s earliest feminine conditioning; a calculated effort by the Feminine Imperative to train men to communicate as women do. I call this men’s “sensitivity training”, but in essence it’s a social effort to force men to rewire their brains to better accommodate a feminine-primary society. “Get in touch with your feminine side”, is really a plea for men to contort their natural ways of communicating into a feminine aligned mode of communicating.
The results however are very much the same as the faux-nice guy effect I describe. There is a subtle disingenuousness that the feminine mind perceives when a man communicates as a woman would. Alpha Men wouldn’t care enough to accommodate women’s communication preferences.
Incongruent communication styles is a tough obstacle for blue pill men to overcome when transitioning to red pill Game-awareness. The sincerity they hope to convey to women about their intentions is incongruous with how women’s limbic understanding of male communication style works. Men are men, because they talk ‘like men’ and are concerned with what Men are concerned with. Granted, the socialization of men to be more feminine-oriented doesn’t do a man any favors in unlearning this, but overcoming the fear of asserting himself as a Man and communicating to a woman as a Man would is imperative.
As most of the male commenters above will attest, there comes a point (usually for older, mature men with the experience to know) where forcing himself to relate to a woman on her terms is simply exhausting. It becomes mentally taxing to maintain interest – at some point men will want to speak their own language, feminine-primacy be damned, but it’s when he does revert back to his native gender language that he becomes more attractive.
When a Man drops the pretense of catering to the feminine, this is when he sets himself apart as a truly masculine agent. He is unapologetically masculine, and that is the mark of an Alpha – to not bend over into the feminine to better identify himself with the feminine. There is strength(and tingles) in our differences from women. So if you’re a newly red pill Man, start making efforts to consciously identify where you’re aligning yourself, your beliefs, your personality with accommodating the feminine and start unapologetically shifting them to a masculine-primary purpose.
To communicate does require some degree accommodation, though. Agreement to use common language, common semiotics, common memories, etc. Otherwise it’s one-sided hectoring or lecturing. So if she fails to accommodate the masculine then the only accommodating that can be done is by him. And if she fails by refusing, his only recourse is Dread.
What a lot of mental masturbation. You use a word then mean the opposite and say it doesn’t work because what women is the opposite of what society and they say they want because really it’s supposed to be the opposite… and on and on it goes.
“War is a mere continuation of policy (politics) by other means.” Action is a mere continuation of communication (conversation) by other means. When a man changes from talking (relating via the feminine theatre) to doing (relating via the masculine theatre), he is still communicating, just by other (alpha) means. That is the whole point of “don’t tell, show.” Even in the greater world, look at the Ukraine situation. Much has been said on various blogs comparing Obama (beta) and Putin (alpha). Well, guess what – Obama and the west are talking, whereas Putin and Russia are doing. And guess which… Read more »
Works in business too: When a man attempts to communicate like a woman (context-primary), women associate him with the feminine (i.e. he talks like a woman). This subconsciously indicates to her that a guy is… making concessions of his maleness to better identify with the feminine. When you read about angry women feeling duped by the Nice Guy, who was only ‘playing nice’ in order to earn her intimacies, that deception is rooted in a guy relating to women as a woman would.
I work in an office full of older women, it’s a state job. What’s the move? Do I go along to get along or do I communicate in a masculine way? What do I do when these women try to engage me in gossip, or pry into my personal life?
The masculine-primary focus is to fuck and not give a shit. In this post-feminist world, there are consequences that HEAVILY disfavor men. And that, I’ve experienced as of late and am lucky to ‘game’ myself out of the situation. Having done plenty of re-evaluation upon myself; I am still hitting on chicks and not giving a fuck. Male-Female interaction is only a one way street. Take for example myself, I can have deep meaningful conversations with my good friend and we can understand each other and he gives me advice. I can talk to a new acquaintance (who I am… Read more »
“The sincerity they hope to convey to women about their intentions is incongruous with how women’s limbic understanding of male communication style works.”
Brilliant insight.
One thing that interests me though, is how quite effeminate men, with feminine communication styles, are often able to do very well with women. I’m sure we’ve all known someone fitting this description.
The ever more common phenomenon of boys growing up with single mothers bereft of any male input means that the biggest educators of masculinity for many are the TV and one’s peers. The female mind is often all over the place, jumping from one thing to another, over-analysing and focussed inward – women’s conversational style reflects this. The male mind is the complete opposite hence the negative effect on him if he engages in a female style of conversation for too long. Also women are far better than men at appearing to be open but actually filtering what they say.… Read more »
[…] Women Talk, Men Do | […]
You do realize that woman came out of man. The feminine comes out of masculine as well.
Men live in reality, women live in fallacy. Men rationalize, women fantasize. Men acknowledge responsibility, women are responsible for men acting responsibly.
Of course, all this isn’t absolute, but in a world where time is restricted, a man has to go on generalizations if there is nothing else to go on.
To follow up on from the point made in this post about female and male friendships, the below link will add more fuel to the fire.
http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2014/01/female-fake-friendships.html
Besides no matter how you talk to them they will always complain you don’t talk the other way.
Too emotional…he’s not manly enough.
Too stoic…he can’t relate to me.
It’s exhausting either way if you try to figure out how to communicate with women.
A standup comic pointed out, “A woman doesn’t want to hear your opinion. She wants to hear HER opinion, in a deeper voice.”
this article is unintentionally relevant here:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/03/game-characters-are-better-when-they-gossip-and-lie/
the payoff quote, made by a woman?
“Gossip is a type of dialogue that defines our moral compass, and without it, we don’t know what’s socially accepted.”
There’s something more to it than this. I’m a very action orientated guy, I hate talking about gossip and feelings, I’d rather talk about ideas and issues, but that drives women crazy. I’ve had several girlfriends who have been very critical that I don’t want to have “deep emotional conversations.” I’ve seen relationships fall apart because they don’t feel like I’m connected to them on an emotional level. I agree that they don’t want to talk about ideas and “man stuff”, but game hasn’t given any advice on what women want when they feel they need to connect emotionally. This… Read more »
I’m still a virgin, and it’s interesting to me to look at how that’s stayed the same. The communication aspect is huge. I could be spontaneous, really witty and funny — i.e, just fucking around and saying just about whatever came to mind without any regard for how they’d react to it — and that seemed to be headed for good results, but I’d always fuck up by opening up about my thoughts and feelings and looking for support. Every time I got ‘serious’ and revealed some vulnerable aspects of myself, the girl would come to resent me. That was… Read more »
Men went to hunt together and practiced the coordinated actions for a cooperative goal. Bringing down a prey animal would have been a very information-crucial effort
All I could think while reading this is women being allowed in combat. It’s all information crucial and the women are going to want to relate and at least a part of that (most?) will be toward the enemy.
What could go wrong?
@HcH your approach depends upon your intentions. If you wish to be accepted as a member of the elderly women group then act accordingly: Bring a small box of fairly expensive (e.g. $8) cookies to the next hen party and make good gossip friends. Works for me. For the record, I’ve never really had any problems relating to elderly women or young girls, because they aren’t looking for someone else besides me. If you want to be seen by them as A Real Boy for whom they might try to set you up with one of their nieces or something,… Read more »
JS, Women want (and sometimes even need) you to be able to understand the nail. Not fix it. Just understand it. Now, you hate it. I get it. But if a LTR is what you are looking for, in order to be her Rock, sometimes you need to understand the nail without trying to pull the darn thing out. **Does it make rational sense? No. But what is going on for a woman is that she is overwhelmed with her feelings. She needs to dump them. So, she is looking for understanding (am I crazy for feeling this way?) and… Read more »
I agree with @JS and @HARDCOREHOOKUP — this article describes the problem and it’s theory very well. What we need is the ANSWER to the problem.
@Rollo, how does the red pill man reconcile this issue?
@AKA, HCH, stick with this comment thread. Answers will come.
@Softek “The mistake I’ve made is believing that I need abundance in order to have an abundance mentality.” Correct so far. What you need to believe is that you COULD have abundance if you chose to pick up women you had no intentions of getting serious with. Rather than circumlocutious wishful thinking, an easier (!) and more frontal approach is best: initiate the picking up process with women that you do literally wish not to get serious with. You can stop any time you choose.
@AKA re: “That leaves them very dissatisfied.” Answer: give women A LITTLE of what they want, so they will always want more from you.
I was exposed to this the other night. I belong to a Theater group that goes to Plays and Movies every week, the group consists of men and women , some single some married. We car pooled to watch a play in another city myself, another guy ( call him Rick) and three single women, us two guys in the front. After the play Rick and I are in the front discussing the play, how it was staged, the lighting, the actors, how we would have set the stage etc., while the women in the back ( all aged about… Read more »
As a caveat to what I said about the nail, women are going to need this sometimes. They are going to want it far more often.
Frankly, women need to get better at managing their emotions on their own. A man doing this for her all the time is a kiss of death, while figuring out when she needs it is excellent for LTRs.
“Women, make time with the express purpose of talking between friends…….For Men communication is about content and they are rewarded by the interchange of information and ideas.” I also read that women overcome emotional trauma through talking about it whereas men overcome it through action. And this in a period when more men than ever are told to go to talk endlessly about their feelings. To what HCH said, is the concept of treating her/the women you work with as the “oldest daughter in the house”, in no way applicable? Although tiring, I wouldn’t have said being charismatic/diplomatic and masculine… Read more »
My only slight beef with this analysis is that most “Alpha males” have an admixture of the feminine, which is to say, intuitive social skills, awareness of others and their place in the hierarchy, etc. The most purely masculine men are not traditioanlly masculine, but rather Aspergerish nerds that put off both men and women with their pure problem focus and inattention to “saving face,” the rules of hierarchy, etc. True alpha men understand people and get them to do their bidding either through deliberate efforts, a sense of showmanship, or simple native intuition. Think of Vladimir Putin and his… Read more »
So, are we just gonna sit here and talk about it?
@jf12, I was waiting for that.
@Rollo, Testosterone vs. risk. I’ve been evaluating the effect of risk and how it relates to how women communicate. Women lack testosterone, which lowers risk aversion. As such, they tend to avoid making hard decisions, taking strong leadership roles, and most importantly, making a stand (meaning what you say and saying what you mean). They can do these things, but it exacts a high toll on them and isn’t their key skill set. Because men have testosterone, we don’t stress out as much. We are more comfortable taking risks, which means we can make decisions, lead and take a stand… Read more »
@AKA regarding the solution to this communication gap, I would submit that a man should talk to a woman primarily as a man, and consistently resist those times she attempts to engage him in woman-conversation. This works especially well when she is in the company of other women, which you should encourage (eg: at parties, or at the office). That way, when either woman attempts to engage you in conversation, and fails, they will be forced to talk to each other about what a big masculine jerk you are (tingles), instead of talking directly to you. This leaves you free… Read more »
It’s the men in our lives, or lack of them, that allowed this feminine-socialization to take place in our formative years. So many of us had fathers that did not take an active role in shaping us, and I lay the blame on them.
@Mansyn, so noted.However, understand that we are well into the 4th generation of men who’ve become these failed fathers raised by the Feminine Imperative.
Hard to teach what you don’t know. Beta fathers raising beta sons, to better accommodate the FI is at the self-perpetuation point.
Yesterday this kid(21?)put this on his FB status : On behalf of men I apologize to females for the male species” . I was livid when I read that. I replied surely you must jest an entire gender or species has to apologize?! . He deleted my comment .
Testosterone vs. risk. There’s definitely something to this, especially when you consider that women in the proliferative phase of their menstrual cycle experience the highest spike in libido inducing testosterone: http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/25/your-friend-menstruation/ It’s during this phase women are more likely to seek out the sexual attention of men with more masculinized features and behaviors (Alphas), and be most open to risk taking sexual behaviors they would be more self-conscious of when in their down cycle. That said, I would agree, there is a definite biological element to women’s communication methods. Martie Hasselton does an excellent breakdown of vocal cues of ovulation… Read more »
E – “She wants something, but doesn’t have the strength to ask for it directly. If you can ‘see’ through her feminine subterfuge and find what she really is asking for, you can make the decision for her, and thus, remove the responsibility from her and the stress. It will make her feel more feminine and see you more masculine.” Translation: read her mind and accept that it’s all your fault when you read it incorrectly. I used to negotiate decisions. I thought this was showing respect for the woman. I was wrong. I tried mind reading and failed most… Read more »
@Badpainter, I get what you’re driving at, however as I’ve stated before: There is nothing more satisfying for a woman than for her to think she’s figured a man out using her (mythical) feminine intuition.” I understand this sentiment: Screw that. Let this be my shit test: she communicates her wants and needs above board, or she accepts what I choose to give with gratitude. I’m already single, I’ve got nothing to lose. However, there’s a part of the feminine psyche that wants to sustain the solving of the mystery of a man. When men force women into the overt,… Read more »
@JS There’s something more to it than this. I’m a very action orientated guy, I hate talking about gossip and feelings, I’d rather talk about ideas and issues, but that drives women crazy. I’ve had several girlfriends who have been very critical that I don’t want to have “deep emotional conversations.” I’ve seen relationships fall apart because they don’t feel like I’m connected to them on an emotional level. …game hasn’t given any advice on what women want when they feel they need to connect emotionally… I believe that you are taking women at their word, not their actions. Women… Read more »
Re: vocal cues. Given that a woman speaks nicer words in a higher pitch when fertile, could making her speak nicer words in a higher pitch cause her to feel more fertile?
I think different goals explain the difference between male and female communication. Men need status in order to win a mate (their goal), while women need social security (their goal). Men obtain status by risking their lives to gain resources and defend them, so their communication style has to be accurate, effective and efficient. Women communicate to maintain a large social network (security), so their communication style has to form and maintain emotional bonds. To me, talking without an objective is a waste of time; but to my wife, talking is the objective, even if it’s unproductive, because it keeps… Read more »
I think Schopenhauer addressed the issue in that segment of “parerga and paralipomena” known as “on women”. It’s a worthwhile reading, google: On Women – SCHOPENHAUER.pdf – yimg.com – Great article Rollo…
@Badpainter, I nowadays find myself as a Gulliver less hampered by my wife’s Lilliputian slender ligatures, but still frequently annoyed by them.
So, if I put my engineering hat on, I tend to look at male and female communication styles as signal vs noise. Signal is the tone or tones you get that was intended to be communicated to you, it’s the only part of what you hear that can communicate explicit intent or information. However, it is a huge mistake to consider the noise the static) as conveying no information. Women communicate in this realm, in the “static” of language, the context. Likewise, in science, when you’re trying to learn something about a star, the star isn’t going to be transmitting… Read more »
Rollo, My main issue is the woman’s expectation that I will be able to read her mind, and at the same time expect me to be decisive, and grant her veto power over decisions for which she won’t provided any real input. I still try to read minds, and try to determine what it is she wants without the fighting the battle that comes from making her say it. I admit my course of action is likely to fail, but so have all the others. At least now I fail on my terms. All I’m refusing to do is grant… Read more »
@Mr. Roach,
Excellent point and one the sphere often forgets, it’s a mistake to conflate social dominance too directly with masculinity.
The stoic, high-T soldier is sent to die by the pot-bellied politician who couldn’t do a single chin-up; the ladykiller grew up with a big sister and her friends.
While I agree with the point made by Rollo, one thing strikes me in the comments: it’s all polarized, either-or. Why can’t one know a little of both and adapt whatever works? Why does everything have to be so black and white, right and wrong? Why can’t one approach just suit one situation better than another? Where’s the harm in a little flexibility and adaptability? Isn’t that how we survived so many generations, by adopting our skills to the current situation? Maybe it’s just me, having grown up around mostly girls and a few outcast boys, but that seems hopelessly… Read more »
I’d agree with your want for a more balanced approach to intergender communication, however the point still remains that for over the past 60 years feminization has prioritized feminine communication as the ‘correct’ form for men.
The problem isn’t one form being better than another, it’s the need for men to disabuse themselves of their feminine-primary conditioning to default to women’s form of communication, and women recognizing and appreciating the male form.
Re: “Where’s the harm in taking whatever approach provides the most results?” Which results?
Women vent, men fix.
I am very pleased to be following the blog of another non-equalist. I hope that you’ll consider granting me the honor of reading a similar piece I wrote before reading yours, in “lady-speak”. http://caprizchka.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/why-i-am-not-an-equalist/
@Stingray: “Men went to hunt together and practiced the coordinated actions for a cooperative goal. Bringing down a prey animal would have been a very information-crucial effort.” Very true, but that’s only half the story. As coordinated as such information-crucial efforts were, verbal communication between men was and is still often minimal and based on DOING rather than talking. Consequently, it’s significantly more non-verbal and effective from a task-oriented standpoint. From Rich Zubaty (“What Men Know that Women Don’t) again: “Watch a basketball game – darting, dribbling, signaling with a bobbed head, motioning with an eye-twitch, passing to the place… Read more »
@Stingray – women’s real problem is that men don’t give a shit about the nail and women think that we should. The moment a woman tries to talk about the nail with a male friend, that male should know instantly and deep in his gut that he’s been friendzoned. Time to walk away because she thinks of him as another female – probably through his feminised communication style as per Rollo. @Rollo – the left-right brain hypotheses was debunked a couple years ago after taking CAT scans of 1100 brains as they were functioning. No significant difference when doing logical/creative… Read more »
based on DOING rather than talking.
I was wondering about this too, in terms of women on combat. I am wondering how women will respond to the hand signals men use when on a mission and there is no talking.
women’s real problem is that men don’t give a shit about the nail and women think that we should. No, men don’t care about the nail, I agree. But many men do care that their wife has a problem whether it is because he genuinely wants to help her or because he’s just tired of the complaining, he wants to make the problem go away. Men need to understand that very often, the nail is not the problem. Her emotions are. The moment a woman tries to talk about the nail with a male friend, that male should know instantly… Read more »
Outstanding comment E! You really nailed the differences in communication style. With feminine-based communication, facts are not as important as feelings. Now that feminine-based communication is the expectation, if you use logic and facts, you are deemed at a poor communicator. Ha. I had to chuckle at this one. Aunt Giggles over at HUS (Hooking Up Smart) would incessantly accuse me of being a “poor communicator” because at the risk of being arrogant I am lethal with logic and facts, and I routinely exposed her factual inaccuracies and shitty logic. Of course, she was a master of using context, and… Read more »
Nail on the head rollo
Stingray – to clarify “the nail” = her emotions. We always know that it’s her emotions that are the problem (insert picture of roguish wink).
From experience with marriage, I no longer bother listening to a woman’s emotions. Literally a woman who has what I consider too many or inappropriate emotions will not make it to an LTR – let alone marriage. It’s simply not worth being around that amount of immature chaos.
Yohami put it best: “‘deep meaningful conversations’ for a woman, means ‘emotional stuff about how I feel and what I want,’ ‘reaffirmation and validation of my viewpoints.’” And then there’s that priceless gem from Glenn: “Just because it pleases me to learn.” I have regular deep conversations with several close buds – history, politics, religion, women, sex, evolutionary psychology, current events, economics, music, movies. There’s a real give and take in these conversations. There’s no shame in being wrong, no gloating when one’s right. It’s like we’re on a mutual quest to better understand things. The conversations are always playful… Read more »
“So if you’re a newly red pill Man, start making efforts to consciously identify where you’re aligning yourself, your beliefs, your personality with accommodating the feminine and start unapologetically shifting them to a masculine-primary purpose.”
Too much work. I’d rather just get drunk.
E @ 11.12am 4 March 2014 That’s an excellent analysis of the present situation and continuing trend. Just yesterday there was a piece on The Economist web site about the differences between male and female brain anatomy (the well publicised differences in corpus callopsum) centred around autism as shown by The Rain Man movie. Female commentators stated that talking about differences between male and female brains was ‘sexist’. Translation: you’ve offended my personal feelings, so it’s wrong. Several men tried to point that differences in biology are reality, but it took a woman to point out the same thing before… Read more »
“When asked to specifically point out the ‘sexist’ elements of commentary, they did not respond”
Women hate to be asked questions the answers to which require them committing to a defined position, logical argument, or set of facts. This is especially true when the subject is emotionally provocative and personal. The time is near when the mere act of asking a woman a question may be considered as an intellectual assault, or perhaps even a psychological rape.
Badpainter @ 3:15am 5 March 2014 The hilarious thing was the context. The obvious difference in brain anatomy/functioning results in more diagnosed cases of autism in men than women, hands down. The article highlights autism with phrases such as ‘weaker’ and ‘problems’ – yet the women commenting still found room to criticise it by default because it doesn’t follow the typical modern feminist mantra of us all being equal and alike except for ‘gender conditioning’. The article is basically saying men are hard done by generally as a result, yet women are clamouring for the victimhood position. Talk about perpetuating… Read more »
@BlackPoisonSoul
If only viewed as the left hemisphere versus right one, then it’s true. Compare the breadth of communication between language centers in both hemispheres for women vs forward-backward communication between cerebellum, associative cortex, motor and sensory areas for men. Generally, women seem better at wordplay, men better at forming models and templates relevant to the real world (all usual caveats still apply).
BP :- “the mere act of asking a woman a question may be considered as an intellectual assault, or perhaps even a psychological rape.” I guess that makes me an intellectual sodomite then, because just about the only way I can convince a woman to accept a proposition or course of action is to kick the backdoors in, by convincing them that they thought of it. It’s simply a case of inserting bite-size chunks of one’s argument at intervals in her stream-of-consciousness emoting (if there are any of course lol) and agreeing, at first not-to-enthusiastically or she’ll smell a rat… Read more »
@Tam “It is of course, you’ll have recognized, precisely the mechanism employed when forced to deal with a demented/drunk/distracted superior at work.” yep. Brilliant analogy, having been there and done that. “It’s probably not even gamma behavior, possibly even .. female.” a gam’s gotta do what a gam’s gotta do.
@blogster “The primacy of feminism in the MSM as the lens through which all discussion is passed has succeeded in removing logic and rationality as a benchmark for debate.” I don’t think logic and rationality have ever been a benchmark for public “discourse,” especially in the US. But feminism has clearly made things worse. The following story was posted in the Manosphere (I can’t remember where) as an example. Three male students at the University of Ottawa in a private Facebook conversation discussed hard fucking some female president of some student organization. The conversation is outed and this private conversation… Read more »
It’s interesting, I’ve written about this topic before (at least, on communication)… I agree that there are differences are important, and I love how you clarify that neither is typically better, it’s just the way they are….
http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/marriage-sex/
@dragonflytat, while I don’t necessarily believe that either gender-specific form of communication is superior to another, I should note that the Feminine Imperative most definitely believes that the feminine form is superior and has made every social effort to ridicule, deride and mock the masculine form as part of its agenda. If you watch / listen to any popular media within the past 50 years, the foundation for gender interactions always ridicules masculinity, or makes masculine characteristics a fault or problem that only a woman can uniquely solve. By virtue of his maleness, he’s an idiot and needs a woman… Read more »
You’re right, even the latest Disney movie, Frozen, was overtly feminist in it’s ridicule of masculinity… 🙁 And I loved the music in that movie… sad. To me it was so recognizable, and just as ridiculous because most men aren’t idiots that don’t know anything. I know better, and at least the women (most of them) that I know, know better as well. My father & brother are not idiot men, and neither is my husband! I think it gets to the point to where they are so overt with making men look that way in media that it’s offensive… Read more »
@Rollo, the usual example given is that “The man should just listen to her talk about the problems in their relationship, using the feminine form for communication, instead of trying to fix the problems, using the masculine form.” It’s as if women, and their enablers, WANT there to be unfixed problems in relationships, in order to give the women something to talk about …
@Rollo Tomassi …I should note that the Feminine Imperative most definitely believes that the feminine form is superior and has made every social effort to ridicule, deride and mock the masculine form as part of its agenda. Somehow this reasoning feels quite awkward. I think the FI needs male communication to be put down because facts almost always trump feelings. I don’t think any belief in superiority is required. In order for the FI to “gain ground”, masculine communication which relies on definition, fact, and observable results, must be torn down. It must be torn down because when women have… Read more »
Well to be fair guvnor a ‘masculine communication’ TV show would make for piss-poor dramatic dialogue. Be like a Buster Keaton movie, but not in the least bit funny and certainly less hectic. Stuff would just .. get done. Methodically.
And Spock would be told to just STFU and stop babbling like a nervous girl in estrus.
The “A” Team was pretty masculine. It made for great TV. Mind you, without a victim at the beginning for them to make all their crazy explosions/shooting/etc.. later, there isn’t much show. The Prince needs someone to save, or there’s no story.
Tommassi: Could we sum up that women primary way of communication is complaining and whining? Now, a little bit off-topic as I am not so knowledgeable of your complete work, I have seen you’ve written a couple of very good articles recently. I have some questions: 1. About “good girls”: how do you view this issue? Some manosphere bloggers claim that most “good girls” are actually false good girls, either as part of their strategy to make a smooth transition from AFBB, or because they’re just too much entitled. They claim for instance, that most of them are not so… Read more »
Correction: They (these women) just could NOT realize it in the hight of the sexual value.
@Yesod:
1.) http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/10/good-girls-do/
http://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/12/19/the-epiphany-phase/
2.) http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/
http://qz.com/177694/why-major-creative-breakthroughs-happen-in-your-late-thirties/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/12/smv-in-girl-world/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/01/30/hollywood-women-pay-salary-men/5050433/
3.) http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/20/women-regret/
http://therationalmale.com/2013/12/12/madonnas-and-whores/
Read these, as you’re not too familiar with my work, they’ll answer most of your questions.
Its very simple. When women talk about their problems to a man, they are NOT looking for solutions. They merely want to express themselves. In fact, they may become upset if solutions are suggested. They should preface what they are saying to the man with something along the lines of “I’m not expecting you to fix this” or “Would you mind listening for a bit?” When men talk about a problem with a woman, the woman should go into high listening alert as this means the man is looking for a solution to the problem or he wouldn’t have brought… Read more »
@Bachelorocles: *I don’t think logic and rationality have ever been a benchmark for public “discourse,” especially in the US. But feminism has clearly made things worse.* The Twentieth Century could be called the Behavioral Conditioning Century wherein people are being “taught” to think with their feelings in the grand experiment known as massive compulsory schooling. Naturally, women are “better” at “thinking with their feelings” making females the ideal “livestock” (along with castrated men) and a select few segregated studs. Feminism turns out to be Behavioral Conditioning at its finest and the obvious inevitable phase of the scientific livestock management perfected… Read more »
@ Bachelorocles Probably to be more precise, if you look at news outlets, discussion of issues prior feminism and prior the last 10 or so years (where infotainment is the norm and accelerated by social media, which of course is fem-focused), it has been stripped of any pre tense of debate or discussion, or consideration of hard issues. At least previously, while you may have had leftist vs right framework for debate, at least it was based on presentation of arguments and consideration of substantive issues (even if ideologically driven and prone to distortion or selective use of evidence, arguments).… Read more »
“It’s a mistake to think that women’s neural predilections for emotion and intuitiveness is inherently a weakness or a liability” Rollo – you’ve been spending way too much time in female company…. Emotional Liability : Women cannot keep a secret – period…. if a husband tells his wife he’s having a bad time at work, or he’s having impotence trouble or any kind of sexual kink, anything about his ex girls friends, family issues on his side… ANYTHING! – you can be sure that will be spread to any and all of her friends, even women she hasn’t seen in… Read more »
@Kate “Rest assured that any conversation topic brought up by a man is something he wants to discuss.” I agree — men like to discuss things like adults. We control our emotions as we control our bowels. @caprizchka “The Twentieth Century could be called the Behavioral Conditioning Century wherein people are being “taught” to think with their feelings” Has there ever been a golden era of mass rationality? Or has rationality always been the preserve of a small elite? “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” — Nietzsche @blogster “Probably to… Read more »
“Has there ever been a golden era of mass rationality? Or has rationality always been the preserve of a small elite? ” The level of literacy within the personal correspondence of the farmers and homesteaders that initially made up the majority of the denizens of what is now the United States, along with that of civil war soldiers, says to me that yes, there was. Of course, they did have religion, whereas nowadays, we call it “science” but it is still biased and framed. I don’t think there is such thing as human thought that is free of bias or… Read more »
Funny, I came to the same conclusion in HS just with different wording. I think mine was “women act, men are” if I remember correctly. Completely anecdotal rambling incoming: I noticed that women loved to pretend they were something (say an intelligence service agent) by playing dressup and making GQ poses and duck-faces. Guys on the other hand “pretended” by learning to shoot handguns and reading stories of MI6 and CIA missions. In every way when I was a teen: women pretended to be a dream person by playing dressup and making a sexy pose while guys took some practical… Read more »
“I agree — men like to discuss things like adults. We control our emotions as we control our bowels.”
LOL The mark of a true man: in control of his bowels AND his vowels 🙂
@Richard Emotional Liability : Women cannot keep a secret – period…. if a husband tells his wife he’s having a bad time at work, or he’s having impotence trouble or any kind of sexual kink, anything about his ex girls friends, family issues on his side… ANYTHING! No, women *can* keep secrets, as evidenced by how easily they get away with cheating on their SO. What you’re experiencing is a difference in value between information and context to your average woman. Men regard their secrets as the military regards it’s secrets, information that in the wrong hands reveals vulnerabilities, weaknesses,… Read more »
@Bachelorocles, please see above.
@ Valentin: That’s funny. I never thought about that. When I was a kid I liked TV shows like Dragonball Z and Rurouni Kenshin. So I ended up doing karate for around 7 years and took kendo for 2 years. Later on I got into a series called Hajime no Ippo and then I started watching videos online to learn boxing, integrating what I’d already learned from martial arts, and eventually getting a decent heavy bag. I also was huge into Jimi Hendrix (and still am) not too long after picking up the guitar (only a few months into it… Read more »
@Rollo Tommassi: In a previous post you wrote A similar amplification also becomes heightened when a woman is the focus of one or more Beta orbiters. The persistent affirmation by, and supplication of, Beta men puts that Alpha in a spotlight. A constant atmosphere of Beta attention and concern has an effect of preselecting that (more) Alpha Man for a woman. I would like to have this explained further because I guess this is very important for guys to realize, especially if they’re the “nice” type (as I have been myself :)). Another topic I would like to have explored… Read more »
Junior, here’s some links on your second question:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/10/good-girls-do/
http://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/
http://therationalmale.com/2013/03/29/show-and-tell/
Thanks Rollo! I will have a look. Just a small correction to my previous comment: “…I could not realize, for instance….
Meanwhile perhaps you might help me figure out how “good girls” dance:
. She also looks like a good girl. 😀
@Kate ” When women talk about their problems to a man, they are NOT looking for solutions. They merely want to express themselves. ” For what purpose? Why not just vent at the cat? Additionally, men are known problem solvers, so it seems to delve more into sadism to basically force a man to sit and listen to endless problems when he is explicitly instructed to not try to solve the problems being discussed. In fact, it’s emasculating. Point of fact is, when I’m given the “I just need to vent, don’t try to fix what I’m going to talk… Read more »
I think the main disconnect is that men are now expected to relate like women. Thus, your reason and your capacity to solve any problem or complaint is irrelevant – the feminine is the dominant social frame now, so sit there and listen to her like her girlfriends would.
This is one reason I’ve always said, women have boyfriends and girlfriends; if you aren’t fucking her, you’re her girlfriend. Not because you’re necessarily a passive Beta, but that’s how women perceive men – as a girlfriend, when they communicate as her girlfriends would.
Clearly, Burninator, women value a man’s attention more than his reason.
There are better, less annoying ways for a woman to get my attention. But yeah, I know, and I generally don’t indulge that particular type of request. That’s what girlfriends are for, to “talk without a purpose”.
@ Caprizchicka – “Monogamy is overrated and so is monotheism and monopoly, which, by my reckoning, are the same thing.” No, they all just happen to begin with “mono”, that’s all. Monogamy provides for paternal certainty while also being the sine qua non of true romantic virtues. We in the Red Pill world are so unused to the idea of monogamy as desirable, we tend to forget how common it is. Half of married couples don’t cheat and many single people are mostly serially monogamous. Monogamy is seen as a sacrificial offering of loyalty, really, more like fealty. There is… Read more »
@Rollo Precisely. I suspected we saw eye to eye on this. I make it clear at the very start of any LTR that I am the man and not her girlfriend, nor will I be pinch hitting for girlfriend status. Laid out in front, directly, at the beginning and it seems to go rather well afterward. And they respect me all the more for being up front about it, to be frank. As you state in the article, you move into the masculine frame of communication. If you can maintain it, life will get very, very good for you with… Read more »
@Burninator: Did I indicate somewhere these conversations would last for hours? Sure, you can outsource everything a couple could share to some other person, but then what would be the point of being together?
Kate, “being together” is a compromise of competing interests, if there is no compromise, there is only surrender.
I could just as easily turn it around, and accuse a woman of going against the marriage because she doesn’t want to play street basketball with me and the guys. After all, if I “outsource” my fun needs, what’s the “point of being together”?
Going against the marriage? There’s enough strawmen around here for a very successful farm!
Women talk. Men talk about something else 😉
You’re being deliberately dense Kate.
@caprizchka “The level of literacy within the personal correspondence. . . . So much for the Progressive Era.” Your sample is biased: it measures only those who could write and the gulf between the educated and the uneducated (those who couldn’t write) then was wide. And when things were more agrarian folks had time to develop their minds — work had seasons and work was not possible at night. But the industrial revolution created a need for workers and mass education followed suit in order to produce worker-consumers. Today, most Americans work so many hours, have almost no little leisure… Read more »
Exemple of “deep meaningful conversation”
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W34LEhJDfxE
@Glenn: *No, they all just happen to begin with “mono”, that’s all.*
Incorrect. All of these “mono’s” define economic fealty no different from a pyramid scheme except for the various ideological rationalizations tendered.
*I’m 51 and wow, more and more I just don’t even bother having intelligent conversations with women.*
Your fealty to the above position has been thus demonstrated.
*I actually just leave interactions with women that aren’t interesting to me – and they don’t seem to mind. It’s a relief for both of us.*
I am so relieved.
@Rollo I have gotten a lot of mileage from “What do you feel about that?” and “What’s really bothering you?” and then just letting her incoherent feminine waves crash against my masculine rock for a while before judiciously commenting. Women respond well to normative statements, how you would like things to be versus how they actually are. Superficially that might seem like a “feminine frame”, you need to somehow channel all of those feelings and energies into something goal-oriented, and that suits my masculine purposes. (I believe the pua term for this is something like ‘frame announcement’) If anything the… Read more »
@ Caprizchka – Nonsense. You are babbling and I caught you out on it. Your response is absurd and not even hyperbole.
don’t agree that women are better at multitasking and intuitiveness. Quite the opposite. Remember a 20/20 episode that looked into multitasking. Think of how men can listen while still doing something and not looking up at you and stopping what they’re doing. Which really annoys women when you do that. They think you’re not listening. Whereas they need to stop what they’re doing. Women championing multitasking has turned into go to phrase like putting everything on men being insecure. As for intuitiveness, think of the best improvisational musicians. Or how the dynamics that develop in team sports. Men are better… Read more »
To Junior,
Alina Plugaru could still be a nice girl. After all, she is Romanian.
@Glenn: *Nonsense. You are babbling and I caught you out on it. Your response is absurd and not even hyperbole.*
I get the hint. Best of luck in your quest, whatever that may be.