The Adolescent Social Skill Set

Having been on vacation recently (sorry for the lack of updates) I took some time in between fishing charters and tequila sampling to look at the overhyped stories about the upcoming olympic games. Unfortunately the games don’t really hold the same appeal they used to, and now especially against the more constant awareness people have of professional sports. So in order to generate advertising revenue for the games themselves it’s become necessary for the media to seed the human interest stories months ahead of time about athletes the public would likely never have been aware of left to their own interests. Knowing who the top javelin throwers in the world are is a pretty niche interest.

So it was with a bit of non-olympic interest that I became peripherally aware of the Lolo Jones story. Grit Artisan had a pretty good breakdown about our newest American feel-good olympic hopeful. Win or lose, expect to see her image plastered on a LOT of sportswear, cereal box and energy drink advertising for the next 8 months.

Before you get the wrong impression, my intent in beginning this post off by drawing attention to Lolo isn’t to eviscerate her. I actually kind of like her. Minus the manjaw, she’s a solid HB 7.5 on the rigorous Tomassi scale, mainly because she got the athletic appeal I like, but she also seems genuinely likable. I use Lolo because she is a prime example of socialization based upon an adolescent social skill set:

From Grit’s post:

-She considers her virginity a gift (!) that she wants to give to her husband. She thinks its the hardest thing she has ever done in her life- harder than college or training for the Olympics. She also realizes and acknowledges the past temptation and opportunities that she could have had sex.

I think it’s important to note that a fem-centric media has used 29 year old Flo-Jo’s Lolo’s virgin status not only as a rallying cry for evangelically defined abstinence, but also as the typical and convenient male-sexual-response shaming device it loves so much. Track & field fans or not, all women can lament in chorus with poor Lolo’s quest to find the Right Guy™ amongst so many immature and uncontrollably sex-concerned boy-men:

It was on Twitter earlier this year where she first announced to her almost 55,000 fans that she was a virgin.

She also said on the program that she has grown accustomed to being rejected by men as a result of her beliefs.

She said: ‘Here’s the two things that happen when you tell a guy you’re a virgin, this is the honest truth. One, you tell them [and they say] “oh ok, I respect that”. But you can already see in their eyes [that they're thinking] “she’s lying about this and I’ll crack it”.

‘So we’ll talk usually one to three months [later], then they’re like “oh shoot, she was serious”. Time for me to exit.’

I can’t imagine shots like this wouldn’t convey any message to the average guy other than, “I’m a devout christian and I’m waiting for marriage.” Yep, must be those incorrigible men’s sex drives that make ‘em bottle out before putting a ring on it. Nothing like the continuation of the ‘there are no good men left’ meme to get the otherwise uninterested ladies into watching the Olympics. Maybe Garfunkle and Oates could dedicate this song to Lolo at the opening ceremonies?

Late Term Virgins

Before I get knee deep in the moral rationales for her ‘decision’, let me begin by stating that in and of itself I don’t necessarily disparage the idea of retaining ones virginity (male or female) when that person is fully self-aware of the long term implications that decision represents. I can already hear the howls from the monogamy minded members of the manosphere, “Why would you discourage women from retaining their virginity? Don’t you know the more dicks she’d had the less likely she’ll be able to pair-bond with a guy? You’re encouraging premarital sex and thus cock-carouseling!”

I’ve covered most of this material in Late Term Virgins, but the salient point here is about adolescent social skills:

Simply put there are experiences and opportunities for personal growth that only embracing our sexuality can offer. One point I regularly make with respect to AFCs is that at some stage in their maturation they became retarded. I use “retarded” in the clinical, not the derogatory sense here; their social maturation becomes held up by their lack of access to experiences that would help them develop new cognitive models. Most of the time this is due to an inability to see past old conventions they learned in adolescence which halts them from passing to the next level so to speak. The problem with saving oneself for marriage becomes apparent in this. I’m not saying there is no merit in it, just that most people subscribing to it blindly do so without understanding the limitations inherent in it.

Whether that person is Lolo Jones or Tim Tebow, the latent purpose of a vow of chastity made in a person’s adolescence is an effort to curb the long-term consequences of the actions that a volatile chemical cocktail of pubescent hormones prompt in them. This ‘decision’ is couched in whatever moralism helps them and their parents sleep better at night, but it doesn’t offer much in the way of educating a 15 year old promised virgin to understand the social implications of that promise when she reaches 30 and is still a virgin.

Wearing our public faces (the ones that look like wisdom and prudence) there will no doubt be a demographic with some reason to celebrate Lolo or Tebow. “Wow, they really do hold to their convictions. They are an example, unlike us lesser people who were too weak to resist our carnal appetites.” And while they finish that sentence there’s still a nagging discomfort in revering ‘celebrities’ for not experiencing something that 99% of the human population has experienced well before age 30.

Call it a Double Standard if you like, but when we encounter a 40 year old virgin male our underlying impression of him is not one of reverence, but rather one of suspicion. We wonder what’s wrong with a guy who’s never had sex. Part of being a total Man is to have had sex; it is to have had consolidated upon our most basic biological impetus. A man incapable of this (by choice or by circumstance) is considered deviant and forces us to wonder at his social maturation. In other words, a normal guy should’ve gotten laid by 40.

Lolo’s is an interesting case. There comes a point when normal women ought to have had sex as well. While we can make the case that sex-positive neo-feminism endorses cock-carouseling as a deviancy, there is also a stage at which we begin to wonder about a woman’s maturity and socialization when she hasn’t had sex by a certain age. By today’s standards, at 30 Lolo is practically a nun. We can cling to the sense of hope she inspires by holding out for marriage, but at what age do we determine that maybe Lolo is still stuck on the idealism of her youthful promises?

Adolescent Social Skills vs. Mature Social Skills

My sister-in-law got pregnant at 18 and married at 19. After about 20 years of marriage and 2 children she went feral. Hypergamy prompted her to divorce the husband who’d ‘done the right thing’ at 20 years old and remarry a millionaire. There’s more to this story, but one annoying aspect of her very brief dating period of the millionaire was her psychological regression back into the only social skill set she’d ever known; the one she’d used right up until becoming a teenage mother. Her phone call conversations with this late 40′s millionaire took me aback at first – it was script taken directly from the worst 80′s Brat Pack movie. Cutesy pet names, and behaviorisms that bespoke a woman who’s social understandings were frozen in time since the mid 80′s to be thawed out in 2003.

I shouldn’t really say that she regressed to her adolescent skill set, because she never really had the opportunity afforded by experience to develop a mature way of socializing as an adult (of 40+ years at the time) should realistically be expected of. Her story is a gross, anecdotal illustration that made me realize the larger, much more nuanced, whole of people using their last relatable experience as reference for understanding and applying themselves in novel situations.

One of the most consistent dynamics I deal with when I’m asked for counseling or even just casual advice is determining how much real-world experience the person asking me has. For example, it’s a much tougher task to unplug, and teach a guy Game who’s social understanding is rooted in idealistic, adolescent beliefs he’s never had the opportunity to mature past via experience. For many in the manosphere it’s an almost enjoyable act to be the iconoclast of juvenile, Disneyesque plugged-in idealisms, but it really does nothing to help the man (not to mention woman) who’s only frame of reference has ever been based in their adolescent social skills and understandings.

With every passing year, by order of degree, it becomes that much more difficult to get a person to accept their social retardation and unlearn their adolescent skill set as their only skill set.. A man of 25 might be willing to come to terms with his lack of referable experience, but the man of 45′s ego, by virtue of age, relies upon that model in order to feel validated. He’s had half a lifetime of experiences, but all of that was built upon, and limited by, a social model he’d learned and frozen at age 18.

Add the feminine rationalization hamster to this equation and it’s easy to see how stories like my sister-in-law’s come to pass. For women there’s little motivation to move beyond the adolescent model that worked so well for them in their teens. Thus we have mid-50′s women who’re easily entertained by television (HBO’s Girls) and stories that allow them to vicariously relive the framework of their adolescent social awareness. I have little doubt that in my sister-in-law’s psyche nothing was out of the ordinary, but to those around she was either cute in her unawareness of her 20 year old social behaviors, or she was an anachronism.

Women can get away with a lifetime of social awareness halted at age 17, but socially, men are expected to know better. This is why Lolo Jones gets a smile and a wry wink at 30, but the 40 year old virgin man is “creepy.”

Social Models

There was a time when the practical merits of virginity made sense. When a person’s life expectancy was about 50 years, an adolescent skill set was much different than it is today. There’s a reason individual cultures had ceremonies for passing into manhood and womanhood at age 15, we needed to be men and women at a much earlier age. Adulthood was literally 18. Since then, our biology and our evolution, physically and psycho-socially, conflict with that older model. We’ve drawn the process of maturation out to accommodate a longer lifespan as well as the contemporary expectations of education, career, family, etc. as per the norms of the societies that foster them.

Yet we still use the older socialization model – the one when more was expected of us earlier – as a base for judging the relative maturity of an individual. For all the handwringing about ‘Kidult’ men not manning up to fem-centric expectations, it’s almost comical to think that those expectations are rooted in a traditional, social model for maturation that hasn’t existed in almost a century in western culture. They want the anachronism of the old model to be relevant to men for exploitative purposes that they’re willfully or blissfully unaware of, yet we’re supposed to congratulate a 30 year old woman for not having sex based on an antiquated social model. Lolo Jones living in 1912 would be an old maid by those social standards; people of that era would wonder what was wrong with her.


72 responses to “The Adolescent Social Skill Set

  • Samuel Solomon

    Lolo has a husband, his name is TRAINING. She has elevated her athleticism, olympic goals, and workouts to the position that most women plug a husband into. Her training is in charge of her. Her training dictates her life. Her training makes other pursuits impossible.

    I have no problem with this, as it is her prerogative, and I can think of a lot worse approaches than hers. But its not hard to see the unnatural element of what she is doing, and the most inexplicable part is her complaining that she can’t find a guy when she had already precluded any legit relationship. Guys don’t want to be a damned accessory, and that’s the best a dude can hope for, with her. That might be ok for a few guys, but add in the “no sex” issue and its a non-starter.

    Furthermore, it also improperly takes the decisions about sex out of the man’s hands and places it in hers. She is pre-empting men and usurping their position of decision making. Once again, it is her prerogative to do so…

    but the complaints of her virginity and her inability to see that she is wholly causing the problem given her priorities is remarkable, and does indeed indicate the adolescent mindset. It is an overall indication that she is going to be neurotic and immature about sex, and because over her physical overdevelopment, most men are disqualified just based on fitness.

    Her only hope is Tebow, I guess. Maybe she’ll win some medals and give it a rest and see about a normal life. She may be able to outrun the wall for a while, but her clock is most certainly ticking.

    Her athletic goals are more important to her than sexual goals, and there can be no two ways about it. It is THAT fact, not the douchebags who won’t wait for sex, that’s the problem. Take the athleticism out of the equation, and she could find a suitable guy even with the ‘wait til marriage’ part.

    I hope she isn’t expecting her eventual husband to be a virgin, and I wonder if she hooks up with a high-notch alpha, if resentment and hypergamy will come roaring in as she realizes how unfair life is LOL

    She has made a questionable trade-off that can’t be undone.

  • FFY

    She is going to be incredibly disappointed after she loses her virginity and there aren’t shooting stars and unicorns prancing all around and chocolate waterfalls.

    I’m incredibly wary of any chick thats still a virgin past 25, for this exact reason. Her virginity becomes her identity, in a way, bound to her, as you say, adolescent ideals and dreams. Nobody but the greatest man is allowed into her most glorious of vajayjays. Every year that prince charming doesn’t arrive at her tower only reinforces her identity

  • Grit

    Ironically, she is exactly the high esteem type who would claim that past sexual experiences were void since they weren’t the ‘right one’ a la born again virgins.

    I’m not calling her a liar, but she seems to be exactly the type to fall for a cad, realize her misjudgment, and correct the mistake in her sexual resume by continually playing the virgin card.

    That is exactly the attraction/danger behind Heartiste’s definition of an ingenue: either profound slut or unobtainably high on a virtuous pedestal.

  • HeligKo

    I don’t know that she will get that super fit alpha that can handle this type of woman. She is too old. She will judge most men nearing 40 as too old even if they are fit. They will be broken by their sports. Most of these men who are going to marry do so young to women much more feminine than she is, even when the woman is fit, they generally aren’t world class athlete fit. Women like Lolo typically marry a a contemporary athlete in the same realm of competition or their trainers who represent an appropriate authority(father) figure in their life. The trainer helped develop them, thus have some balance to the physical ability mismatch that may exist. Tim Tebow will marry some pretty Mormon girl just graduating college in a few years. Before he is 30, but not much. He wouldn’t have any desire to go after someone Lolo’s age.

  • HeligKo

    I think the getting stuck in adolescence idea is pretty cool. It seems to fit a lot of the women I have seen in the church who hold out for perfection. They seem to be stuck believing in prince charming and fundamentally fail to develop even as they approach 30 as single virgins. I hadn’t thought about it this way, but it really seems to fit.

  • koevoet

    I have dated/been rejected by two 30+ year old virgins. Both of them were reasonably attractive…well within my range of attractiveness. Both of them suffered from acute Personality Deficit Disorder. If a girl hits 30 and is yet unmarried, there is probably a reason for it. If a girl hits 30 and has not had sex there is a really big reason for it. Both of these girls were Christian women and one thing I have learned by being a regular church-goer is that normally developed Christian women tend to get married early, often right around 25 or earlier.

  • Ronin

    Meh, lesbo.

  • Johnycomelately

    The sister in law that married at 18 is socially immature and yet Lolo who refrained from sex at 30 is socially retarded? Does that mean messing around for a decade makes you socially mature? Most of the bat shit crazy woman I know are the very women who played the field and should have developed social maturity.

    Concerning mature male virginity, isn’t that a fem centric view? I’ve known several monks in my life time and they were amongst the most socially adroit people I have ever met.

    It’s a long bow to draw to equate extensive sexual interactions with maturity, I think responsibility for others is the primary marker of social maturity.

  • Rico

    Tim Tebow will marry some pretty Mormon girl just graduating college in a few years.

    I doubt that, seeing as he’s not a Mormon himself.

  • 39joshua

    A good comment Soloman, which perhaps matches my own thoughts. The issue of trade-offs and women does not receive the attention it deserves, both from feminists (broadly construed) and MRAs – Women often don’t acknowledge the sacrifices they have to make if they want to realistically find a mate and have a children, while men I think fail to sympathize with the real sacrifices women have to make career-wise (e.g. giving up that chance at a medal, which after all does involve a real renunciation – I think men sometimes underestimate the sacrifice that women have to make here) if they want to fullfill the dicates of their feminimity.

  • Pip

    I thought all middle-aged male millionaires went for 20-something hotties. One went for your 40 y.o. sister-in-law with two kids? So that really happens? The carousel goes on forever and the party never ends.

  • Nas

    Yep! Women got it good. It won’t get better for us men with age. We are a slave race!

  • Rollo Tomassi

    As I stated, there’s a lot more to that story, but suffice to say that at the time the she was (and adjusted for age, still is) very attractive for her age – classic blonde hair, blue eyed, big (paid for) boobs and the kids were in college or just about to go.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Tebow just needs to get after it with Taylor Swift to complete the fantasy. Except, I think John Mayer already beat him to it.

  • GeishaKate

    Well, I wish her the best. She is obviously a very determined, perfection-seeking woman. It will be hard for her to find someone “worthy.” Its hard enough just being a regular person! I certainly hopes she finds that one in a million person who will be just what she was waiting for because the ones that don’t work out cost you not only heartbreak but, more essentially, time. If she is interested in having a family, that will be a problem.

    I found this to be a very thought-provoking post. The emotional maturity comes in not just with sex but the duration of relationships. My sexual side is underdeveloped, but I was in a ten year relationship, seven of which was marriage. I didn’t really date before that and learning how to date in my thirties has been pretty much disasterous. Trying to figure things out most people do in their teens at thirty is a bit of a challenge. At 34, I’ve just about comes to terms with dying alone as my sister yesterday so helpfully informed me I would. lol

    We also get our emotional maturity from our careers and our children. What you are referring to is is a sort of “arrested” or “suspended” development. Alcoholics (probably all addicts) experience this too. They become “stuck” at the age their addiction began. As pointed out above, probably any strong fixation interrupts normal patterns of development.

  • Candide

    Her soft core glamour shots make me think of Monty Python’s “Are You A Virgin?” sketch in Life of Brian. Sure she is…

    Like how Kate Bollick’s fame and financial success are now dependent on her being a loser in love, Lolo Jones’ are also dependent on her being a virgin and failing to find Mr Right. Can you imagine being said Mr Right? You’re responsible for her loss of fame and big money. Now that would win you lots of favour from the judge when the divorce comes years later. :D

  • CynicalBachelor

    Ronin is being flippant, but I had a similar reaction when I first heard the Lolo story, “Ah, lesbian.”

    The wear-my-Xianity-on-my-sleeves types who go around trumpeting their virginity are also always crowing about their heterosexuality. This is frequently an overcompensation for their shame about the real substance of their sexual desires. When a 29-year-old, attractive woman is the person in question? Oh, hell yes. What better way to stay true to their preferred religious indoctrination and sublimate their self-hatred and self-disgust than repressing their forbidden urges through conspicuous nobility?

    I’m sure many people will say, “She can’t be a lesbian! Sure, she’s athletic, but she’s so feminine.” Well… there are plenty of feminine lesbians out there. And, most very serious women athletes are lesbians. I used to think this was a homophobic notion… then I went to grad school and become friends with lesbians who study the topic. I discussed Lolo with one of them recently and she had the exact same reaction.

    The broader point relevant to the issue of dating and relationships is that a significant portion of the reticence supposedly straight women have towards sex with men is an expression of underlying lesbian desires. It isn’t always a hypergamous tactic. This includes married women who have kids.

    Yet one more reason to take Mr. Tomassi’s advice and not try to break down last-minute-objections when a woman won’t lift her linens. Most of the time “she’s a lesbian” is lame, Beta whining, but not always.

  • driveallnight

    Jesus. Her dad humped a warthog?

  • ant

    I didn’t know kate upton and lolo jone were the same person? :D

  • llbrontell

    I don’t wholly agree with Rollo. Equating sexual experience (especially isolated from a marriage) as an important part of maturation is like saying you need to experience roller coasters to grow up. It may help, particularly for men, better attract the opposite sex in the future and improve your communication ability with them. But with diverse sexual experience, as the manosphere heavily notes and Rollo in this post, comes consequence.

    People also have different meanings of “maturity.” Some would look at social prowess as a measure of maturity, or communication ability, or management of personal finances, or self-sacrifice, or awareness of others’ feelings, etc.. I know people who are adept in some measures and absolutely void in others.

    But…having said the above. Clearly Lolo is attractive. If she is a virgin and a Christian, she really has no one blame but herself. This whole “wait and save yourself for God’s Perfect Will” motif within evangelical circles (and I speak as an evangelical) is nothing but masked hypergamy dressed in biblical langauge. It literally casts thousands of good, Christian men (who admittedly have little Game) aside.

    There are probably literally thousands of young, virgin evangelical men saying to her “LOOK AT ME!!!” Many of them are probably good looking to boot. But…they are not of her status level. Therefore, they are not good enough for her. This is the unmentionable part, and to do so within an evangelical community would cause the gaggle of women to sqwawk. I know because I am an evangelical.

    And to think about it: that would be fun…I’d love to hear the sqwawking and honking. The sad part is that a Chrstian guy who would have the confidence to point out this simple truth it a humorous way would have a some fawning amongst the honking. And yet 99.9% won’t.

  • llbrontell

    Solomon mentioning the opportunity costs associated with her training is also a great point. That is also taboo to mention within typical evangelical circles. Sqwawks and honks. All the little princesses want to have their cake and eat it, too.

    “Opportunity cost” (with careers or other paths) needs to be taught to young Christian girls. The need to understand that if they seek a certain path, they also significally scale back to number of potential mates. It could mean spinsterhood–especially for the less-attractive.

    Heck, being a devout, honest, chaste evangelical Chrstian alone scales back the number of potential mates.

  • Team-Red

    Adolescent Social Skills vs. Mature Social Skills

    this could easily be an essay entirely on its own because I completely agree that woman rarely develop past the adolescent social skill because they don’t have to in our society nor did they have to in the past. I would go so far to say that women, as a whole, are incapable of reaching the Formal Operational Stage in Piaget’s theory of cognitive development. The story of your sister-in-law brought be back to ‘What’s your Problem’, very sobering.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    http://corycopeland.net/2012/07/06/like-a-28-year-old-virgin-by-bradley-pierce/

    Compare and contrast the gender perspective here with the social response to Lolo’s mate quest. One of the more interesting and consistent aspects I find amongst both the late term virgin mentality and the “I’m haaaaapy single” Kate Bolick perspectives is that all of their writing sounds like legitimized versions of online dating profiles.

    You don’t make the mental efforts of long written appeals for understanding the virginic way of life or the aging spinster’s validation without some preconceived idea / hope that someone, somewhere, might in fact read your piece, identify with you and want to make your fantasy finally a reality.

    And (just like Kate Bolick) you certainly don’t write a book about your plight of singleness without that aspiration of conditional intimacy being integral to your message:

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mad-To-Love-by-Cory-Copeland/199884736747961

  • Sam Spade

    I once worked for a radio network that hosted in-studio interviews (farmed out to FM morning shows). We had as a guest a 29 year old female virgin. The hook was she was looking for a “good guy” to date or something. Just a silly publicity stunt but the kind of thing morning DJs love to talk about. She came in-person and was kind of cute, skinny, blond. I was 30 at the time and some other female staffers were asking me if I was interested, wouldn’t this be a fantasy of mine, etc.? I could not have been less interested in this woman. Maybe it was the fact that she made her virginity a tool for attention-whoring. Kind of like wearing a low cut shirt or tight skirt but with too much advertising. It just seemed like a dangling carrot to get male attention. But besides that, yeah, I assumed that at 29 there was something wrong with her. And any guy looking to date her would be starting out with a handicap because it’s this elephant in the room. Just another way for a woman to get a guy to qualify himself. No thank you, ma’am. I prefer to operate in a situation where sexual interest (and the possibility of sex) is a given and go from there. I have as much suspicion of the woman who trumpets her late-term virginity as a virtue, as I do of the woman who brags to me in our first conversation that she lost it at 15. Beware the woman who overplays the sex card, be she a virgin or a whore.

  • Jeremiah

    Professor Tomassi -

    At what age is a person categorized as a Late Term Virgin, and at what age do you believe social impediment begins to show it’s coarse face?

    Will people skills begin to improve after the virgin finally pops their obstinate cherry?

  • RockHard

    I think that the thing with the “not until marriage” problem isn’t life expectancy, it’s that the institution of marriage has changed. Marriage used to be a necessity, because it took a lot of work to keep a household running. You didn’t have microwave meals, washing machines, or off the rack clothing, so it was much more difficult to live independently.

    As for LoLo, I tend to agree with Geisha’s assessment – she’s stunted because she can’t accept that the world’s imperfect, so she lives in this manufactured reality of a pro athlete where everything is controlled and sanitized. Some day, she won’t be able to compete at that level and she’ll run headlong into reality when Wheaties has moved on to the next fast runner and Nike doesn’t see the value in paying her to wear their shoes.

  • RockHard

    Oh yeah, and the photos – definitely attention seeking, combined with that “sanitized reality”. She’s marketing her brand, but that’s currently based on her legs. When those start to fail, what’s she got to sell?

  • Beer Monkey

    There are a lot more 30 year old women that have only fucked one or two guys than there are 30 year old virgins. And the former aren’t crazy. Lolo is. If you are going to settle for a gorgeous 30 year old, go for the one that has had a couple of LTRs and stayed off the carousel and avoid the virgin like the plague.

    NO MAN will ever be good enough for her. Oh, she’ll settle some day, and it won’t work out. I guarantee you at some point she’s already turned away the best guy she’s ever going to be able to get. But her clock is ticking so she’ll find some Jesus-loving beta to marry her and knock her up a couple of times, then she’ll bail because no man will ever be quite enough like Christ himself for her.

  • GeishaKate

    ” If you are going to settle for a gorgeous 30 year old, go for the one that has had a couple of LTRs and stayed off the carousel…” You made my day. Let’s make t-shirts.

  • Hero

    Rollo, the first link to the pics in “shots like this” is actually Kate Upton.

  • koevoet

    Agreed. A 21 year old virgin is sweet. A 25 year old virgin is admirable. A 30 year old virgin is a cat owner.
    This is interesting that this came up now as I had the ’30 year old virgin’ conversation on Sunday…with my priest of all people. He agreed that a woman unmarried by 30 has some sort of problem.

  • Orion

    Agreed with this assessment. Training for the Olympics up to her current age is as much of a turn on to a man as a fast track career oriented woman. She has already set her priorities and a husband doesn’t appear in the top 5. Considering fertility, she is approaching the wall at a pace much faster than she can run. Either she resets priorities after the Olympics or she becomes another bitter spinster hamster lamenting how she never found a man good enough. The truth is she never presented herself as a viable option.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Fixed.

    My bad, but in my defense it wasn’t hard to find another shot.

  • Jon

    and that’s why I took so long to read the article…..

  • HeligKo

    Details, details. I am not sure where I got that idea, but you are correct. Swap mormon for Christian and I stand by the statement.

  • HeligKo

    Put simply a woman who is 30 and a virgin for religious reasons, and has not married has a problem. She either has prioritized other things to the point of excluding finding a husband or has set the bar so high that no man can ever reach it, and as each year passes the fantasy becomes harder to reach, because as we live, we make mistakes that shape us, and those mistakes to someone with the bar set that high make the men unacceptable for coupling with her. There are also the women who have done both. I am a firm believer that a woman who wants a traditional marriage must, I repeat must, make their job learning to be a good wife and mother, and placing themselves where they will meet men of similar character. There is no time for ladder climbing, and that includes in sports. Similarly a man who wants a traditional marriage should set himself to making a good living and learning how to manage his life well financially and with character, so that he is attractive to such women. Neither should be far beyond college age when they get married. Once a person has bought into the modern ideas of career and life, yet cling to the religious ideals of chastity until marriage, they are in direct conflict and as the author states their development will be retarded. A sexually conservative, modern, secular woman marrying at 30 is in my opinion more likely to have a successful marriage than a sexually pure, neo-traditional Christian woman marrying at 30 for the very reasons the author states here.

  • Beer Monkey

    Even evangelical christian girls usually fuck if they aren’t married in their 20s. Usually only in LTRs, but the majority of them still usually fuck even if they feel some guilt about it.

  • King A (Matthew King)

    You can’t disparage Miss Jones without lionizing sluts. If your intent is to put the slut on a pedestal, then do so directly, rather than naïvely thinking you can have all the good of female innocence without the ill consequences of generational slutdom.

    Say you are Mr. Jones, her father. Are you proud of her or disappointed? How are you instructing your daughters to avoid or survive the cock carousel? Are you instructing them at all?

    The only middle ground between Jones’ over-extended purity and her submission to the cock carousel (even if it’s just for a brief whirl) is marrying your daughters off young at the traditional mid-teen age to coincide with her sexual maturity. The “one or two LTRs” before 29 is a false compromise: she would have been another man’s (men’s) pin cushion for a decade. Men rightfully recoil at damaged goods. Just because men have had to make peace with widespread female promiscuity doesn’t mean it somehow represents a goal worthy of pursuit. It means you have conditionally surrendered to the feminists’ imperative.

    So which shall it be? Do we promote the tragic but unsullied Lolo Joneses of the world, or do we leave our daughters to the ravages of their own unmediated hypergamy?

    Lolo Jones living in 1912 would be an old maid by those social standards; people of that era would wonder what was wrong with her.

    No. Lolo Jones would have been married in 1902 and not a virgin at all. Miss Jones, like all attractive young women of this century, was presented with three essential choices: virginity, marriage to beta, or cock carousel (or a combination of the latter two).

    Which would you have for your daughter?

    Some men are working in the face of cynicism to provide the next generation with a better option: regulated hypergamy. Others are okay with the sluttification, as long as they’re the ones sluttifying a girl, which on its face and by sheer numerical preponderance is an absurd PUA fantasy. Still others pretend, along with the feminists, that female experience has no effect on a woman’s attitude or attractiveness.

    Jones shouldn’t be criticized. She was an idealistic girl whose admirable idealism forced her into spinsterhood. She should be held up as a victim of our culture’s contradictions, not some pathetic dupe who wasn’t cosmopolitan enough to skank herself out like the equally idealistic and naïve Sex and the City cum dumpster.

    Matt

  • King A (Matthew King)

    FFY wrote:

    She is going to be incredibly disappointed after she loses her virginity and there aren’t shooting stars and unicorns prancing all around and chocolate waterfalls.

    So she held out because she’s a secret sensualist without the first clue of what to expect upon being deflowered? This despite growing up in a culture that not only fails to preserve any mystery about the sexual act but also actively and clinically deconstructs it on every TV show, computer screen, magazine page, and billboard?

    It is just your kind of preposterous commentary that passes for wisdom and discredits pick-up artistry as even more naïve than Lolo Jones. If anything, her chastity demonstrates that she regards sexuality as something more than “shooting stars and unicorns prancing all around and chocolate waterfalls,” and yet you still think everyone is consigned to the petty-hedonist limitations which define your life.

    Matt

  • King A (Matthew King)

    FFY wrote:

    I’m incredibly wary of any chick that’s still a virgin past 25, for this exact reason. Her virginity becomes her identity, in a way, bound to her, as you say, adolescent ideals and dreams. Nobody but the greatest man is allowed into her most glorious of vajayjays. Every year that prince charming doesn’t arrive at her tower only reinforces her identity.

    This is the way a childish epicurean interprets actions of principle. He thinks pursuit of ideals is just a mask concealing a person’s real, pleasure-centered motivations, i.e., his own motivations. There can be no other legitimate initiative to action.

    Maybe Lolo Jones wasn’t holding out for “prince charming.” Maybe she was holding out because she wasn’t impressed by “men” like you, betas with just enough alpha bravado to take advantage of a SMP glutted with drunk skanks. Your kindergarten-level conquest allows you to fantasize that an inflated notch count signifies the accomplishment of something manly and rare, while casting the likes of world-prized pussy as somehow beneath you.

    Maybe she never was looking for “the greatest man.” Maybe she was looking for a man, period. No woman of her stature should squander her most valuable sexual asset for anything less than the minimal baseline. But to accept that concept would require you to abandon the fantasy of your irresistibility, in which all women who reject your oily ways are ipso facto “adolescent” or frigid. Because, make no mistake, her existence is a rejection of you. She would rather remain sexless than submit to your type. That might not be all her fault. It could be your lifestyle is more pathetic and resistible than you are aware.

    Let’s take Occam’s razor to your genitals. Should we believe that a world-famous, slender and attractive, alpha athlete is overestimating the worth of her “most glorious of [untouched] vajayjays”? Or is it more likely that some chump denizen of the “manosphere” has drifted past confidence about his perky peter into anonymous exaggeration about the value of his way of life?

    FFY is “wary” of Lolo. Look out, Lolo! You’re dangerously close to foreclosing the FFY option. (I hope she’s reading this.)

    Matt

  • jlw

    “A man incapable of [losing his virginity] (by choice or by circumstance) is considered deviant and forces us to wonder at his social maturation.”

    and

    “Call it a Double Standard if you like, but when we encounter a 40-year-old virgin male our underlying impression of him is not one of reverence, but rather one of suspicion.”

    1 nit to pick in a great post: in my experience, when you look at (mainly) and talk to (secondarily) a 40-year-old virgin male, it’s usually pretty obvious why they are so. There’s no sense of deviancy or suspicion but instead a sense of patheticness and, for females, abject abhorrence.

  • Father Knows Best: Mid-July Edition « Patriactionary

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  • hamilton

    Please – the idea that the Olympics’ most famous female athlete, who’s also good looking, wants to remain a virgin because she can’t find a man “Alpha” enough is laughable. She lives in the midst of alphas…not only the pure social alphas, whom you seem to regale, but the men who are both social and professional alphas. She’s not going to marry some millionaire who has limited social awareness. Nor is she going to marry some meat-market alpha who carries mail for a living (if he’s lucky) once the sun comes up. But she’s got access to men who are both. She chooses to remain a virgin. Her choice.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    More or less the moral absolutist response I’ve come to expect Matt. I will however point one thing out,…

    Kate Bolick: “Men are immature kidults now, incapable of living up to what is expected of them. They should be ashamed of themselves for not growing up, investing in, and marrying women. They’re intimidated by strong women. Where are all the good men?”

    Lolo Jones: “Men wont stick around and date a virgin with conviction. They’re all sex obsessed. They should be ashamed of themselves for not growing up, investing in, and marrying women. What happened to all the good men?”

    Same message, different origins.

  • xsplat

    A useful concept is “socio-sexual orientation”, or how readily a person is predisposed to have sex outside of a loving committed relationship.

    I’ve always hung around men and women with high socio-sexual scores, so up until spending time on game blogs and forums, I’d assumed that men had similar attitudes to mine. It came as a surprise that not only were some men interested in virginity, but that it was a common attitude. And it took me quite a while to accept the fact that some men are GREATLY interested in the sexual purity of their mate.

    In the wikipedia entry on the subject is explains that on the whole women are more interested in relationship security than men; they have a lower socio-sexual score than do men. However some men have a lower S.S. score than does the average women. These are the men that at first I just could not wrap my head around. Even today it’s a struggle, as the sexual strategy is so different from my own.

    Now with that introduction, here is my point. I think some of the low SS score men don’t put much emphasis on fucking, and many of them can’t really fuck. So when given the concept that a person can have a low socio SEXUAL development, they can’t even grasp the concept. They begin by conflating the idea with a low social development.

    Sexuality really does develop in stages, and you can be sexually retarded. And you can be a sexual savant.

    The sad, sad fact is that most men, and most women, can not fuck. Some of those who can really stand out. They can compete in the sexual marketplace mainly on the prowess of their fucking. It’s that much of an advantage.

    They say that for any skill or craft, in order to get really good at it, you have to start your training at a young age.

    Humans, like all animals, are built with “windows of development”, which are the times where our brains retain neuroplasticity during which we can learn a subject. We have a window for learning language, we have a window for learning to read, to walk, and on and on. You can still learn outside of that window, but you’ll learn slowly and never become as great as you could if you learned within it.

    Sex isn’t much important to the low SS score folks. They don’t even compete in that niche. The often even poo poo the importance and value of it.

    But for some of us, we’d never marry a girl who can’t fuck like a demon, and her virginity is of no value what so ever.

  • xsplat

    Also, many men don’t have the concept that it’s possible to have too much self control.

    Willpower is not always a good thing. It’s a sign that she can’t give her self over to being fully taken over by the swoon of erotic passion.

  • Cream

    Perhaps the moment she finally opens the flood gates and gives some guy the worst sex of his life, (because it will surely be near frozen sex), she will mutate into a raging slut to compensate for all the lost years.

    That would be funny. It’s also a real possibility…

  • HeligKo

    I think one of the problems of women waiting that long to have sex is that the act of losing her virginity becomes a religious landmark in her life. It so blown out of proportion that when it isn’t something so incredible as to cause the earth to shake and crack in two, she is forever disappointed and lacks the desire to have sex. It become utility for having babies, and the man she married will be forever disappointed. It really is the inverse problem of the carousel. The women on the carousel won’t be satisfied without variety, and these late term virgins won’t desire sex at all. I believe that the religiously driven virgins do themselves and their future husbands a huge disservice by holding off on marriage until they have achieved whatever milestones they have decided are important in life. I also think that the person who said that a woman at her age who has had a couple of partners in the context of LTRs and feels a little guilty about them is much more likely to be a good partner than the 30 year old virgin. I think if she is one of the people that @xsplat is talking about that doesn’t value sex at much if at all, and whether that was her destiny or not it is likely where she will fall now, then she would do well to marry a man who is also of the same mind. That is unlikely one the testosterone filled athletes she spends most of her time with now. It is more likely going to be a highly successful business man who has not allowed women to distract him as he climbed up in whatever industry he has built his business in.

  • GeishaKate

    “Willpower is not always a good thing. It’s a sign that she can’t give her self over to being fully taken over by the swoon of erotic passion.”

    Good point. However, if the only way for this to happen is to be with someone superior, and Lolo isn’t so shabby herself, its going to be very hard to find. Giving up control/submitting, to those of us who are willful/”spirited”, is a lot harder than you’d think. A fictional example is the play Hedda Gabler by Henrik Ibsen. Rather than bear the child of a man she loathed and dishonor her father’s legacy, she chose suicide. In my own case, I will not get involved with anyone who I do not consider superior in some major and significant way. Not because I want to be snobby, but because the relationship will ultimately be doomed and I do not want to hurt anyone in that way ever again. Even people who are situationally advanced can be caught up to if they do not themselves continue to grow. If one, like Lolo, is committed to advancement, the pool of those equally or more dedicated gets smaller and smaller.

  • Professor Ashur

    Rollo-

    Would you mind sending me an email? I have a question for you.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    leave me an address on the About comments and I’ll hit you up

  • King A (Matthew King)

    “Her choice.” Right, relativist. We are critiquing her choice.

    Lolo Jones “lives in the midst of alphas” who would squander her asset and leave her damaged goods to be picked over by beta dumpster-divers. Jones is one of very few women able to make rational decisions among limited choices. She should be commended for the attempt, if not necessarily for the result.

    We live in the anomaly. We men retain the secret whip hand over confused girls ravaged by the culture, no matter what bromides that culture officially consoles them with. The power of the alpha male is balanced by the power of the virgin female, or else instability reigns, as in today’s sexual marketplace. For today’s girls caught in the gap, forced to make a decision between bad and worse, it’s simply unsporting to laugh at their predicament.

    All the tips handed out to men on blogs like these are great. There are none handed out to women — not our specialty, not our concern. But that leaves the field to the saboteurs of Cosmo and Jezebel.com, or disoriented crones like Susan Walsh. How would you have an earnest girl behave in this climate? Have you thought about what to tell your daughters? I don’t see anyone coming up with answers, much less acknowledging contemporary female behavior as a problem. So long as the carousel keeps grinding on.

    Fine. But for all its temporary excitements, the rule of whores is not stable. Can you further admit that a pimp-prostitute regime is not desirable, or does mere vengeance direct your spirit against teenage trollops-in-training?

    This community has to come to grips with the fact that the behavior it encourages in men creates trashy women. So we either ignore the cause and effect, consider it the just deserts for granddaughters of the feminists who created this chaos, or rationalize the mannish and promiscuous behavior of women to be the preferred/inevitable mode.

    It doesn’t have to be this way. Men can recover the approach of father and mate, protector and peer, and women can be trained to be modest, as their nature urges them to be. Our circumstances are artificially imposed; they can be willfully disposed.

    Lolo Jones is a teardrop in a tidal wave. She never had a chance. In a culture of entitled, fat, and useless XX specimens, she is a humble, slender, and feminine woman who made the best of a bad hand. She is a martyr, and her virginity stands as an example against theoretical feminism as actually lived, where girls are routinely crushed by contradiction.

    Matt

  • King A (Matthew King)

    A woman’s “sexual side” is supposed to be “underdeveloped.” When it is overdeveloped like a man’s, she quickly becomes rancid within and without.

    You have a daughter. Teach her how to be a woman. Be sure her father does the same. Make her decisions for her until her husband can. Independence is overrated for girls, particularly the ones marinated in feminist lies who “independently” all arrive at the same sorry end-state.

    We have become unsexed. We have to re-genderize this epicene culture one child at a time or else consign your daughter to an unimaginable fate, far worse than ours. What banalities we endure today will be active horrors for her.

    Game is just a hint that men are starting to reacquaint themselves with their true power, and we are not known for our voluntary restraint. By the time your daughter comes of age, either she will be protected by men or armed by virtue. The feminist ruins in which geezer lesbians and players frolic is a Mad Max zone for your daughter. They would have her thrown to the feral dogs defenseless — literally naked — unless you get your Sarah Connor on and prepare your little woman for The Rise of The [Rape] Machines.

    Happy news is, we can avoid that trajectory if we get our heads on straight again. Granted, that’s a big if. Feminisma delenda est.

    Matt

  • King A (Matthew King)

    More or less the moral absolutist response I’ve come to expect Matt.

    As opposed to … moral relativist? That contradiction-in-terms? I won’t make a brief against relativism other than to say it is the cancer of our culture, enervating us as a nation of wimps that struggles to justify even the simplest of justices. Everyone is an absolutist. Only some deceive themselves into thinking their philosophy to be more flexible than thou by burying their convictions out of sight and mind, away from others’ sight and beneath their own minds. If you weren’t at some level absolutist, you would never rise from your bed, much less presume to deliver wisdom to strangers through a blog.

    But that’s “just my opinion.”

    Men are “immature kidults now.” Do you have evidence otherwise? The disagreement between Bolick and me (or perhaps Bolick and Jones as well) is how the manboy culture appeared and who is responsible for fixing it. The policies and philosophies Bolick advocates are the cause of the development of the very men she deplores. I don’t think children should extend their adolescence. And neither do you. That’s why you have volunteered yourself to the project of shaping boys into men, or as the trade jargon prefers it, “betas” into “alphas.”

    You don’t like to hear that our predicament is men’s fault. But that’s the default feminism talking. Everything in society is men’s fault, including our white-knight-of-the-millennium move of accepting feminism in the first place. If you seek power, you first seek responsibility. The cringing Men’s Rights Activists think they can reclaim their manhood by acting like whining girls, through apportioning blame and seeking restitution like slaves.

    “Man up” has become one of those thoughtless clichés in these parts, introduced as a fact and never scrutinized again. The term has come to sarcastically signify beta supplicancy writ large, despite it being nothing of the kind. It is a challenge to reclaim the manly prerogative, the exact challenge you issue on this blog.

    Insofar as conservatives want to retain the stinking corpse of feminism, then you have a point, they are slaves to the modalities into which they were born. But this is conservatism inconsistently applied, not some fatal weakness inherent to the philosophy. They are not conservatives at all, a degree of difference with the left not of kind.

    Men will have to man up to take their castles back. Or they can drop out, peruse PUA websites, hit on townies, and play X-Box “poolside.” That is nobody’s definition of a man. It is preemptive self-gelding before the feminists can come with their snip-snips. There is something ancient and noble about suicide, so I can understand why some astute boys take this more honorable path of renouncing manhood. But dead is still dead. Castrated is still castrated. Adolescence is still adolescence, whether it is effected by blade or by culture.

    Matt

  • GeishaKate

    I consider my daughter one of the luckiest little girls alive for all she can learn from me. Had I not come to the brink of so many Cliffs of Cliches myself, I wouldn’t have anything to teach her or know how best to reach her. My mistakes are not for naught. Little Pearl turned out quite well, and so will my little girl.

  • J.M.

    Normally your comments are better than this. FFY even though is a relativist and hedonist, as you say, he understands that a woman without shame or modesty like her (otherwise she wouldn’t appear in those “virginal” poses), if virgin, it´s only because her ego and hypergamy impulses related to her choice of life are greater than her otherwise normal female imperatives (find a good man to marry).

  • J.M.

    Yes, Yes, Yes she is poor poor girl, a martyr nonetheless, where is the violin music when needed? Where are the good guys? you forgot that one (sarcasm). For a christian you really like to insult your spiritual forebears assigning the title of martyr to a girl who has achieved many things but can hardly ever qualify to that distinction. The past comment was directed at you King.

  • Serenety

    maybe a virgin

    definitely an attention whore

    good girl case dismissed

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  • Elijah

    To every well meaning reader of the Rational Male I am a socially retarded individual and I think the good news is the fact that I am not even 20 yet I am still 19 years old. The social skill set that I use to even interact with women is that of a 10 year old because I was bombarded with the abstinence is bliss bullshit and it is affecting me as I am always presented with opportunities to take women and ravish them however there is always this realization that I lack the ways of a man who knows how to engage with women (you know; a man who is socially aware, smart and knows what he is doing). This is my achiles heel. How do I improve on this. The annoying and frustrating thing is that I know that if I can just get this down then I will be okay and take it from there. For example, I used to be a socially intelligent guy who would be playing around with the girls because I matured very early when I was very young but like I said, society just crippled me in my teens and still existent teens and I only use the skill set of a ten year old and it does not work. obviously. I am willing to change and I am not this guy filled with ego who cannot change from blue to red pill, I really am willing to change. To anyone including the author Rollo Tomassi your advices are welcome

  • Dean Alexander

    Just been directed here by Rollo from Krausers site. Thank you sir, you are a gent.

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