The Epiphany Phase Revisited

One of the best things about the Red Pill being a praxeology is that nothing’s set in stone. Like any good science there’s always room for reinterpretation and updating ideas per new information, or sometimes it’s simply something or some observation that seemingly went overlooked that adjust an old interpretation. Reader Playdontpay brought something to light in an old post, Three Strikes:

I agree with the 3 Strike rule for younger chicks of 30 and under but once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.

It’s probably because at this age her clock is ticking and she doesn’t have time to “waste” on flings that would won’t lead to commitment, so she re-invents herself as a “quality woman” in the hope of convincing you that she is LTR/ marriage material.

It’s up to you to decide if you can push the envelope to 5-6 dates max but I would only do this if I was sure it was her ASD holding her back and not down to a low interest level.

If you wait to date 5-6 and the sex is sub par, don’t stick around waiting for it to improve as you’ve been sold a lemon and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze!

This seemingly innocuous comment made me think a lot about some of my older material and how newer readers might interpret it. There’s actually quite a bit to unpack in this short response, so with the benefit of over a decade of hindsight I thought I might riff on it.

“…once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.”

Any long time reader of this blog will immediately associate this phenomenon with the Epiphany Phase women enter when the reality of their lessened capacity to compete intrasexually with their younger sisters becomes unignorable. Generally this phase comes at or around the ages of 29-31, however, depending on circumstance this may come sooner for some women (those whose attractiveness is already understood to be suboptimal), and sometimes much later for others (women who bought into the lie that their attractiveness is subjective and indefinite). I’ve written many essays about this phase and dedicated two sections of Preventive Medicine to it. It’s very recognizable, and very understandable when you have a good grasp of how women prioritize the ‘needs’ of their sexual strategy as they mature.

The Epiphany Phase is really a woman’s subconscious knowledge of The Wall coming into her cognitive acknowledgement. However, what’s not so easy to grasp is why a woman who’s come to this phase would actually make it more difficult for a prospective long-term, parentally invested, hopefully idealized, mate to become intimate with her?

On several occasions I’ve proposed just the opposite; that Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game. Even for women in the luteal phase of ovulatory shift, (when by all means she ought to be seeking the provisioning, comforting and rapport of more Beta men’s attentions) women will be prompted to sexual immediacy and urgency when presented with the prospects of fucking – and hopefully locking down – what she sees as an Alpha man. It is entirely possible to bypass women’s natural, ovulation-induced, Hypergamy when you present yourself as the right Alpha incentive to her (I’ve done this myself). This is the prioritization women’s natural sexual strategy has, and in reality, a woman faking an orgasm for a perceived Alpha, or having proceptive sex with him in her luteal phase only confirms the urgency women’s natural Hypergamy has with regard to locking down an optimal man.

But why would a woman who, for all intents, knows her capacity to attract men is waning be so insistent on delaying her becoming intimate with him? This seems counterintuitive, particularly in light of the fact that most women in their younger, Party Years eagerly had sex with men for whom they made little or no ‘rules’ for in order to become sexual with them. It’s a common enough idea in the manosphere that women will ride the ‘cock carousel’ in their 20s until they realize a lessened capacity to attract guys and then seek to cash out of the sexual marketplace before or around 30. Usually this ends up with a girl settling for a Beta in waiting.

But why would the rules and prerequisites be something she insists on now but didn’t while she was in her sexual peak years?

Vaginas and Moral Compasses

There was a recent article on the HuffPo quoting Cate Blanchett saying “My moral compass is in my vagina“, and while this might be the red meat clickbait the HuffPo relies upon for revenue, it adequately sums up how Hypergamy, a woman’s sexual agency and a woman’s capacity to utilize it throughout her life directs women’s intrinsic and extrinsic priorities throughout their lives. I realize this wasn’t how Cate intended her comment to be taken; she wanted to express some inherent guiding principle for women in an era she believes women are still repressed in, but in doing so she illustrates the real compass women have with regard to moral interpretations of their ideas and behaviors. If something gratifies, optimizes or otherwise benefits a woman’s driving impulse of Hypergamy, it sets a rationale for moral interpretation by her. Or in other words, if it’s good for what optimizes Hypergamy, it’s good for women.

As men we want the easy answer to be the best answer. So it seems obvious to us that a woman making arbitrarily ‘new’ rules of intimacy for her prospectively long-term suitors would follow some epiphany where she comes to her senses, realizes the error of her ways and strives for being some new ‘quality woman’ to represent herself as. As such, her quality should symmetrically be matched by a man’s quality. And that quality should logically take some time to determine. This is, in fact, most women’s self and public rationale for making a ‘quality’ man wait for her sexually when in the past she had no such obstacles for the hawt guy she met on spring break in the Cancun foam cannon party.

We want to believe this because we’re taught to expect such reasonings from a girl who now, at 29, wants to get right with God or “start doing things the right way” with guys. Social conventions abound that condition us to expect that once women, “get it out of their systems” (by following the Sandbergian sexual strategy) she’ll realize the errors of her youthful indiscretion and magically transform into a “Quality Woman”. We want to believe it, and it’s in women’s best interests that we do believe it.

Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself. They love nothing better than the idea of the reformed porn star who’s finally “grown up” and come to her senses about the error of her youth’s indiscretions with the guys they grew up to hate as an archetype. Better still, they’ll feed that rationale/fantasy in the hope that her Epiphany will include her saving her best sex for him since now she’s come to understand that it’s been the ‘nice guys’ all along she ought to have been getting with if not for ‘society’ convincing her otherwise.

The reformed-slut-with-epiphany archetype is a trope Beta men want to forgive because it represents vindication for their self-image, Blue Pill conviction and perseverance (they never gave up on her). Women with the pasts that make them good candidates for eliciting this rationale know men well enough to see the utility it has in securing Blue Pill men’s resources and long term security.

Socially, she’s got countless sources of ‘go grrrl’ moral reinforcement from both men and women. In fact, as a Man, just my bringing this to light makes me guilty of being “judgmental” in popular female-defined culture. And that’s the insurance women will always have in their Epiphany Phase – whether it’s a reformed slut coming to terms with the Wall at 29, or the ex-wife who frivorced her dutiful (but unexciting) Beta to have her own epiphany and discover herself a la Eat, Prey, Love, the social net of feminine-primacy is there with easy rationalizations to catch any and every woman’s Hypergamous fall.

Holding Out

Yet still she hesitates in giving herself to that Beta provisioner.

We excuse this hesitation by claiming it’s because, now, she wants to be extra sure about him. The Alpha men she so effortlessly gave herself to were all, of course, wolves in sheep’s clothing (e.g. men are evil) and in her epiphany she must exercise caution. And if you think it’s because of anything else, well, you’re a misogynist, so shut up.

A woman holding out on a guy during this phase of her life really isn’t about any moral epiphany, it’s really her hindbrain coming to terms with having to make herself become sexual with a type of guy whom previously she would never have naturally flowed into having sex with. We like to think a now ‘quality woman’ is deserving of putting a man through a set of qualifying tests, that seems like appropriate prudence, but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

Later she’ll bemoan that she’d rather cry over an asshole than date a guy who bores her, but in the Epiphany she has to force this subconscious understanding down in order to better insure her Hypergamous security into the future.

This latent, limbic sexual uncertainty has nothing to do with vetting the ‘perfect guy’ for the ‘quality woman’ it’s about a woman, who likely for the first time in her life, is presented with the challenge of having to bypass her hindbrain Hypergamy in order to secure her long term security. Thus, we see this demographic of women make even more rules for a Beta to deserve her intimacy, while a more Alpha tingle-generating man she was more than willing to break rules to get to bed with.

It’s important that we focus on the idea that a man, any man, ought to be deserving of a woman’s sexual ‘gift’. We get this rationale from the affirmations of even the most well meaning of men. Even though the concept of Hypergamy is regularly proven through her Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy prior to her epiphany, the Beta mindset is always ready to do more and expect more from men who would get with his ‘quality woman’. A woman on the expiration of her SMV likes nothing more than to be told, and to encourage the idea in men, that “she deserves better” in spite of her past decisions.

Yet still she hesitates having sex with the ‘perfect’ guy who is ready to overlook all of it.

This is an internal conflict between what her psyche knows she needs to do to ensure her security, and what her hindbrain wants in an exciting Alpha lover. What “flips” in a woman’s head is her inability to resolve her sexuality with her self-consciousness in having to force it to be with a man who likely doesn’t merit it for her – but this meriting her sex, up to now, has always been a process she left to her hindbrain to decide. In a sense it is quality control, but not for the self-righteous rationales we’re supposed to believe it is.

There is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. At some point, what sexualized qualities satisfies a woman’s Id she no longer has the capacity to maintain so there comes an inner conversation of negotiation over what available man represents the best compromise depending on her need and her acknowledgement of it – and her true capacity to satisfy her long term security with or without him.

Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.

There’s a bit more to this reevaluation of the Epiphany Phase I may do soon in another post. However, I think I should add here that a lot of not-so-genuine confusion on the part of well-meaning guys about why a woman would so easily break her own rules to fuck an Alpha guy while require them to jump through hoops to get to a mitigated sexuality with her is primarily due to a woman’s hindbrain expectation about what sex should be like with either type of guy.

I’ve related in the past how women will gladly engage in a same night lay with a guy they see as a hot Alpha sex opportunity, but would never consider if she saw the guy as “relationship material”. This situation is a clichéd joke now – we laugh at it as “chick logic”, but the more Blue Pill men become aware of the Myth of the Good Guy the more these quandaries will give them pause to think about the women whose pasts they’re ready to excuse and the women they’re simply never going to consider “relationship material” themselves. They’ll think twice about the social order that’s encouraging them to “man up and marry those sluts”.

295 comments

  1. Interesting. I think it comes down to a guy’s game and attitude. I recently banged a girl who works long hours and doesn’t get out much. We met online. I was asking her about this and about an observation I made of these couplings of girls together where one seemed to be dressed like a guy and the other very feminine–a lesbian coupling.

    The girl laughed and said she wasn’t sure whether they were actually lesbians but many of these girls living abroad and working needed sex and affection. Direct quote: “People say women don’t need sex, it’s not true”.

    The age idea of the Epiphany phase I believe is based on a woman’s “Access” to men. If women have little access, are busy, traveling, shut-ins or shy…their desperation levels increase and their emotions and hormones seem to get the better of them. These women will be more pre-disposed to pursuing guys when these hormones reach a peak at any given point in the month.

  2. Adding this passage:

    “”Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.””

    The definition of “hamstering”…

  3. “Latent limbic uncertainy”. Bingo. Woe to the poor guy who thinks that he can negotiate desire. This internal struggle is post-Wall all the way into peri-menopause. Some women are self-aware enough to recognize this, most aren’t and most provisioners, despite having had their teeth kicked several times, still have a hard time with this piece. The mind is telling her to settle down and her tiny little amygdala is telling her to still seek the best genes. A perfect storm so-to-speak however……what I have learned with the 40-50 year old crowd, that desperation amongst these women is often more effective than Spanish Fly…..especially if you are is reasonable shape (no grandpa bods). It’s incredibly easy to obtain sex and sometimes material items (had one buy me a kayak one time) but……never, never, never lose frame. The shit tests never stop. The downside is that you have to fend off some women who just don’t take of their bodies.

  4. It’s a lot of explanation for basically she’s not into you. She doesn’t have the hots for you. That’s it. Don’t over do the thinking. As Rollo has said before you can’t negotiate attraction. The BS lines don’t matter it’s only the action.

  5. Had an interesting fuck this past weekend. Met her with two friends and one of their husbands in a bar. First one, single blonde (SB) asked me to let her read my tattoos. I smiled and nodded, then walked past to the bar. After getting one of the best Guinness Stout drafts I’ve ever tasted, I sat down at a nearby table with my back to their group, and concentrated on the live acoustic act and my beer, and texted a plate I have spinning. About an hour later, I go for a refill, and step up to the bar next to her friend, a cute brunette I would eventually fuck in a few hours, after removing her just ever-so-slightly discolored tampon. So yes, proliferative phase. Contrary to popular belief, her head did not explode with confetti.She is a doctor, or ex-pediatrician, turned personal trainer after she wasted her training to raise children who are now 15 and 17. She’s 46, I am 51, but told her 48. I work out and I’m a retired dietitian, so she and SB believed me and said  looked about 45.So I woke up Sunday at this very nice house of hers, and left on my HD 107 motorcycle I bought recently to make up for hair loss on your very accurate SMV assessment. ;)Texted her a little that evening. She answered immediately. Skipped a day yesterday after making a date with her for this evening (Wednesday), and she started the shit tests. Said she had a rough week thus far, blah blah, can we just do dinner tonight and make it an early night, by which she meant no sex. I told her no, I wanted to feel that little body rubbing on mine tonight. She said she wanted to get to know each other better and thought I was interested in more than sex. I said I am, but I also need sex in order to function properly, or something like that. Then I said I thought she was too busy, but it was nice meeting her, and left it at that. Treated it sort of like a GNO. She responded with “Wow! That was fast”, and proceeded to shame me. Also *surprise*, she refused to take agency for her actions. I was fingering her outside on the street next to her car at one point before we took off, got caught fucking in said car by a security guard, then went back to her house where her sons and mother live with her. She, of course, blamed it on the booze.I started using amused mastery and sent her this meme of Billy Bob Thornton in Sing Blade saying, “Mmmmhmmm”.She found it less than humorous. She said something to the effect of, “I’m very intelligent with a big heart … if you ever decide you passed up something great, let me know”, and I responded with a quote from some shrink talking about prioritizing someone you care about to throw the shaming language back at her, and told her if her schedule cooled down later, and I was still single, HMU.Kind of the same thing you were talking about with this article, epiphany phase revisited. She had regrets about throwing her drunk ass at the alpha biker dude, then decided to try and reinvent herself the next time we got together. Imagine that. 😉

  6. Girls that are “easy”, which is now socially acceptable (and most girls) are not what a man biologically wants in a wife.

    Women inherently know this. So when she’s ready to settle down she can’t be “easy”.

    I think this is what you’re saying.

  7. The epiphany phase was the biggest revelation to men upon swallowing the red pill. I got divorced at age of 34, lean, lifting and meeting new women. Many times I would never have to pay my way with these women as they were entertaining me. Now it’s apparent why this was happening. I

  8. Heh. The three date rule is probably obsolete. I think that if she isn’t the one clearly after having sex with you on the second date (not wanting to come across as a slut by doing it on the first date) then a man should probably fold his hand ie she’s not into you. Don’t bother asking her out on a third date. If she fishes for it, you could tell her “you know, I just don’t think I find you sexually appealing enough to keep this going”. YMMV.

  9. @pinelro

    When I divorced 10 years ago I hadn’t yet learned what I know now, but I made a best effort (listening to Leykis, etc) to be the opposite of the beta-shmuck I was before. I pretty much made that my guiding rule: “Don’t do what I used to do”

    In my 40s and dating mostly 2-12 years younger, I quickly found a couple things that worked well for me. Always show a little less interest in them they were showing in me – never be the more eager one. And to randomly lose interest for a bit and pull back with what I now know as amused mastery. And boy did that keep their hamsters spinning and interest up.

    And just like you said: “Now it’s apparent why this was happening.”

  10. @Rollo

    Excellent post..

    “Yet still she hesitates in giving herself to that Beta provisioner.”

    This can be summed up quite simply:

    Everyone hesitates to do something that they REALLY don’t want to do.

  11. Local bulletin board has some schmuck reporting that his girlfriend, in her early 30s, revealed she used to have a “sugar daddy” (which probably means that in reality she was turning tricks on a streetcorner). He is bitter because she made him wait a long time for sex. He is also repulsed by this information and is having trouble getting over it. Naturally, Team Woman is chiming in with “you should forgive and forget!”

  12. @Atticus, no, that’s what we expect is the Epiphany Phase reframe for women. And as you’ve illustrated it’s the reframe that’s easiest to believe.

    What I’m saying is her not wanting to seem ‘easy’ is the cover story for her hindbrain hesitation to fuck the Beta men she knows are less than optimal from a sexual standpoint.

  13. It’s hard not to blame her. You have to see it from her standpoint. She likely got played by more than one alpha male who was keeping a harem. She fell in love, thought she had hit gold and he eventually moved on. As others and Rollo have pointed out, marriage is a great investment for a man and it means going w/o to get something positive in return. For me, it was money and looks. I might date a poor girl and fuck her, but middle class life sucks.

    Twenty years later I can bump into one of these women and, even tho married, they will ask “why?” Why weren’t they good enough. All I can do is smile softly and say it had nothing to do with them. It was all me–because it was. I chose.

    There are a few I still talk to. They readily admit that they “settled” for less than they should have. I think in the aftermath of being dumped by an alpha, it takes them a long time to get over it. Oh sure–they’ll fuck the first five to 15 guys that come along in rapid succession ( women refer to these as “revenge fucks”). But then they slow down and start looking for someone that’s “safe”. Problem is, is that they still crave mr. asshole. But he’s long gone.

  14. @cheupez – that Wiki How page – oh my – that’s all the shit I was told growing up. Perform. Wait Act Beta. and Negotiate Desire. All that did was set me up to take the first low SMV woman who came along and finally showed interest in me. That’s my #1 regret in my life – being a fucking beta chump – and that beats out an opportunity that would have made me a couple million dollars.

    I have second copy of The Rational Male, volumes 1 & 2, set aside with along with a couple other books (Bachelor Pad Economics, etc), for my son, once he escapes the clutches of his mother, which I see him doing once he nears or turns 18, as I’ve seen him already calling out her BS.

  15. About a year after I started reading this blog i fucked a 41 year old still cute milf/cougar.

    She held out on me till date 3 despite the fact I knew she was into me. I still remember her saying “I just broke my 5 date rule with you”. I think she wanted to fuck on date one but thought that I would consider her a slut and rule her out for commitment if she did.

    I’m sure she perceived me as alpha but she still risked making me wait till date 3 because she weighed up the chances of me losing interest if she fucked on the first date (slut not worth commitment) versus the risk of me losing interest if she held out on me for too long.

    I’m sure an attractive woman of this age has experienced being pumped and dumped by previous Alphas and hamsters that it wasn’t because she wasn’t good enough for them, but that they lost interest in her because she gave it up too fast, hence her new tactical use of making men wait ( even alpha men) even though she is less attractive than her peak years and should have ‘less rules now’ than before she employs the “make them wait” tactic to signal her value as a “quality woman” and to filter for possible commitment.

    The reason I know this woman saw me as AIpha and not BB provider material, yet still made me wait 3 dates is because after just over a month of dating she basically offered to set me up in a business of my choice (boat rental on lake Garda in Italy,approx 350k investment) in return for my commitment/marriage.
    She had divorced a successful businessman and was financially very secure.

    So yes I agree that in most cases women will fuck you fast ( especially younger women) if they perceive you as alpha, sometimes they will employ ASD tactics on an alpha in an attempt to convince them of her “quality” if they are looking for commitment. It’s a risky move on their part but you can understand the thinking behind it.

    So with older chicks of 35+ if she try’s to make me wait I have to determine if it’s because of a low interest level in which case I bounce immediately, or is it she wants to fuck but is employing ASD as a tactic hoping for more than just another alpha fuck that won’t lead to commitment.

    These days if a chick hits me with ” I have an 5date/ 3 week” or whatever ‘rule’ my reply is always ” yea but I’m the man your going to break that rule for.” It works unsurprisingly well.

  16. …but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

    Yep. She’s not fucking him because she wants to fuck him. She’s fucking him because that’s the only way he’s going to propose to her.

    The line between this and prostitution is pretty damn fuzzy, IMO.

  17. @ cheupez

    Wow that wiki how page should be titled.
    ” FI guide for AFC’s looking to becoming the perfect cuckold for their pedestalised oneitis” .

  18. These days if a chick hits me with ” I have an 5date/ 3 week” or whatever ‘rule’ my reply is always ”yea but I’m the man your going to break that rule for.” It works unsurprisingly well.

    Gentlemen, add that line, together with firm eye contact and an understated but confident smirk, to your repertoire of stock phrases.

  19. True. I also think the hesitation is about the man she thinks can’t get any or has never been able to get any ( or at least can get a little but has to work hard at it) suddenly thinking “hold on a second, I think I’m sexy now” and getting the idea to capitalize on that.
    Get together too quickly in her mind, she risk the guy feeling maybe I can spin plates, and then the commitment on his part gets a rethink. So she tries to get a signature on a contract.
    Goes back to what you’ve said of women not wanting men that other women don’t want. And not wanting a man to realize his value due to it hurting her maximizing her agency. So she will try to make him wait. It’s her hindbrain conflict and her not wanting to think he might have better options. Or be able to achieve better options. She has the shame tactics for older betas discovering that “you too can learn to bang young women!” ready and waiting.
    Sanderberg said that nothing is sexier about the later in life betas. Thing is, she doesn’t want them to actually believe they are.
    Once again, fascinating how things tie together. This is even connected to the man in the garage post.

  20. @Tsotha
    there’s two sayings to think about why people say them.
    Prostitution being the worlds oldest profession. And never getting involved with women actors because they never stop acting.

  21. If you think that a woman is withholding sex because she’s looking for commitment, disabuse her of the notion that you are an option for a boyfriend. Either she will stop playing Hide the Vagina ™ or she will move on and stop wasting your time.

    If she doesn’t want sex with you right away, she’s not really into you.

  22. @ theadsgamer
    @ Rollo

    I agree 100% that if she doesn’t WANT sex with you straight away she isn’t that in to you.

    Do you accept that it’s possible that she might want to have sex with you straight away but decides not to so as to present herself as a “quality woman” worthy of commitment or not?

    Or do you ascertain that all straight women of all ages always fuck a natural alpha straight away as they are afraid of losing him if they hold out?

    Do you not think they may also fear losing an alpha due to being perceived as ‘easy’ and therefore unworthy of commitment or do ‘tingles for the alpha’ overrule all other considerations?

    I ascribe fully to AF/BB but I believe a woman can put aside alpha tingles for a couple of dates if she’s hoping for more than just a fuck from her alpha target.

    I used to work with a girl who dated Cristiano Ronaldo when he played for Manchester Utd and if she was telling the truth ( big if lol) she didn’t fuck him on the first date as she didn’t want him to think she was “just like all those other girls”. They dated for a few months so she obviously did something right.

  23. @playdontpay

    “FI guide for AFC’s looking to becoming the perfect cuckold for their pedestalised oneitis.”

    Exactly!

    Imagine a 14 year old boy reading that, believing it, and living the rest of his life believing that. What a pity.

  24. If she is holding out so you do not take her for easy then you have probably given her the impression that you are available for LTR or made her imagine that she will be treated better by holding back or made her think that screwing her is not exciting enough in of itself unless she is getting you for LTR (negotiated fuck).

    To paraphrase Rollo: “Any woman who makes you wait for sex, when you finally get it, it is not that great.”

    This has been true for me each single time.

    No exception.

    Unfortunately, those who wait are the ones I ditch the soonest after they finally cave in. Not out of spite, but out of lack of interest.

    They hold out. You bounce. They wait some months then come begging to be let in. You let them in and find that it is not all that.

    And once they start knocking to be let back in, they sound like their life depends on it. But you let them in and you realise that they had some angle all along.

    If a girl does not give it up the first time, dont expect much from her. She is negotiating. There is a guy somewhere who will bend her over and plough her like nonesense in the blink of an eye.

    May be you will be like that guy some day. But for now, you are that guy for some other chick. Move on.

  25. @Anubis – I am since married, but in the past I didn’t have any RP resources. When I got divorced my ex-“wife” actually said to me that she was looking for a bigger/better deal. I took that piece of advice to heart as my own strategy as well. My first marriage was the typical AFC blue pill disaster – fat uneducated wife, dirty house, and primarily my own failing providing proper masculine leadership. Like you I resolved to up may hand and do it differently. I wouldn’t date women that expected me to pay their way, because I was burned the first time. That unwittingly saved from being a BB at the time. I did eventually re-marry (I know, I know……) a better woman than before. Until I found TRM and MRP reddit, things were coasting along at a much better lifestyle than previously but heading downhill slowly. Thanks to TRM and MRP, the RP praxeology has saved me as a man, which in turn has strengthened my marriage.

  26. The girl laughed and said she wasn’t sure whether they were actually lesbians but many of these girls living abroad and working needed sex and affection.

    @wala —

    There are almost no lesbian women (statistically, significantly fewer women identify as lez than men identify as gay), but …. almost all women are open to going lez for an encounter or a relationship if the circumstances are there (generally either lack of access to attractive men, or wanting to stay away from men for a time for some reason).

  27. “It’s a lot of explanation for basically she’s not into you. She doesn’t have the hots for you. That’s it. Don’t over do the thinking. ”

    I don’t know about that.. since divorce, my gals have been 28, 33, 37, 41, 44, and I’ve recently started up with a woman in her late 40’s… all in some part of the epiphany or possibly wall phase. With regards to sex, they used different levels of ASD or (attempting) holding out with various rationalizations, but it’s because they wanted me to respect them. Yet, none of them managed to delay the sex with me beyond our first opportunity to go. The reason is simple. I took the initiative, and I focused our time together on a proper logistical situation to score, and I’m very good at Kino and comfort.. My level of Alpha with these women correlates directly to their age and beauty, naturally. Some of them gave it up in the hopes of locking me down, and others just because they wanted to fuck me. But what I’ve learned is that no woman will spend time with you that leads to the possibility a sexual opportunity, unless they’ve already decided they ‘would’ fuck you. The rest is up to you and your ability to not fuck it up, and to escalate. How you handle this actually determines whether she puts you in the Alpha/Beta camp, or somewhere in between. I strive to be somewhere in between, because my strategy is generally a source of steady sex, not pump and dump. Call it buffering, but it really goes beyond that for me. It’s a matter of limited time and resources, as well as recognizing my peak sexual satisfaction being derived from multiple sessions with the same woman, combined with an intimate non-sexual connection. It’s just the way I work. If I only banged her once, and then she fades away, I see that as a failure, and I feel unsatisfied.

    It’s been said many times. You have to make your sexual intentions known. It’s tough to do it, especially with a chick that’s a little on the fence about you, without fucking it up or making her uncomfortable. Kino, imo, is the absolute best tool. It not only brings her to the right frame of mind with you, it also is sort of a no risk way to test her attraction. If she recoils at you merely caressing her hand or kissing her neck.. she is repulsed by you, and I can’t explain what she is doing there with you. On the other hand if it makes her happy in any way, you can rest assured you now have an opp to escalate further, and can act accordingly.

  28. @ tsotha
    March 15, 2017 at 11:39 pm

    ” …but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

    Yep. She’s not fucking him because she wants to fuck him. She’s fucking him because that’s the only way he’s going to propose to her.

    The line between this and prostitution is pretty damn fuzzy, IMO. ”

    Fucking LOL on this.

    It’s really funny, isnt?

  29. @ tuff

    Pretty much agree, I’m the same I’m not monogamous but I don’t generally aim for ONS as I also prefer multiple encounters and plates, fwb’s. Some level of connection aside from the sex is important to me, I’ve never kicked a plate out if she wanted to stay the night unless she was being bitchy or bringing drama.

    You are on point that a woman will not accompany you into a scenario that offers a clear opportunity for escalation to sex unless she has decided she would fuck you, that’s why ‘Netflix and chill’ is almost a guarantee of sex unless you fuck it up.

    I usually meet women in bars for the first few dates but maybe that’s because I like drinking almost as much as I like sex!

    Maybe I should think about logistics more in the early stages but I actually enjoy the game part before the sex as the dynamic changes afterwards so I’m ok with it taking up to 3 dates, more than this and I have to be sure that it’s not down to low interest on her part and other factors are coming into play.

  30. I think a lot of what guys want to believe is ASD (anti-slut defense) when a girl is less than enthusiastic about sex with them is really just convincing themselves that she wants him to think “he’s special”.

    The more LARPy a Beta guy is the more this plays to his ego. He enjoys the waiting, the testing, the idea that he’s finally met a girl who doesn’t want HIM (of all guys) to think she’s easy. He’s languished waited for this to finally happen for him for so long what’s another 4-5 dates?

    But I should also mention that this narrative plays well to the moralist mindset too. I think there’s a real want on the part of RP guys who still cling to BP ideals to believe that a girl can “shape up” and turn her life around. So they buy into the Epiphany Phase rationales because they believe their RP awareness inspires this “conversion” in women. So they believe a woman’s hesitation to have sex with him is really her not wanting to appear easy and drive him off. It makes an appeal to men’s egos. It’s these guys who are too eager to affirm women’s hesitation as some kind of confirmation of their own quality. Who wants a slut, right?

    As I mention in the OP, women’s hindbrains know that being sexually available to a Hypergamously optimal man is imperative to her breeding strategy. Women balance their filtering and qualifying perception and intuition of men against the knowledge that their sexual agency is perishable. When a guy, through natural Alpha arousal or Game finesse, makes a significant impact on a woman’s register it’s at this point the hindbrain focuses on her intrasexual competition for him.

    As I’ve said before, women want a man who other men want to be, and other women want to fuck. A guy with fame or commonly acknowledged high social proof is far less likely to have a woman hold out on him or postpone sex for fear of not wanting to appear easy. If everyone confirms his high SMV a woman’s Hypergamous subroutine switches to shutting down her competition. She knows if she doesn’t make herself sexually available to him she risks losing optimizing her Hypergamy to any woman who will.

    So for all of that we’re supposed to believe a woman’s intrinsic sexual strategy and nature shut all this down when she is in a phase of life where her perishable SMV is in decline and she recognizes this? We’re meant to believe her sexual hesitancy is due to her being more selective in a phase of life where she’s at her sexual agency’s weakest and most necessitous?

    I think we want to believe so for a variety of reasons that appeal to our egos. That, and the fact that if we doubt a woman’s sincerity of her Epiphany we’re turned into dehumanizing monsters is why we want to buy into the ‘change’ a woman conveniently makes when she reaches her SMV’s expiration date.

  31. Here is a question to which I do not have an answer. This follows on the main takeaway from this essay. It is based on unshakeable observation of current events. So I have no har-har jokes or Firesign Theater quotes to drop.

    Among high schoolers and now college students we see the death of one-on-one dating as we knew it. Some hooking up still happens at the Alpha level, yes, but most boys and girls do things in friend-groups and hope that some kind of hesitant pairing off my occur at some point via happy accident. Beta boys are taught and know not to push too hard for a fuck or they’ll get expelled/fired if the target takes umbrage, at any time, now or later.

    Seems to me this lack of one-on-one dating and hookup skills will embed into older post-grad populations. How is this going to translate into social interaction post college and grad school?

    Will there be efforts at forming new “social” groups at work to replace the high school/college “friend groups”? That could be fine if the group is cohesive enough to remain together for a time, but since all jobs are fungible, that’s not certain. More reliance on dating apps and text game? Where will they learn it?

    And how will this tie into the social phenomenon spelled out in the NYT article cited in the Twitter tag, where the average Beta boy-man becomes more and more superfluous and is seen as inferior?

  32. Like all things with regards to women, it’s best to flip it on them. They know, just like you, whether or not they want to have sex with you within five minutes or less.

    One reason why it’s best to spin plates is that you have options and available sex with other women. This allows you to flip the three date rule. You have your own timeline for sex established which has nothing to do with theirs. You do this to see if they are worth your taking the time to poke them.

    They’ll see you not as being fearful, but as being supremely confident that you can not only bed them, but rock their world. They’ll also know–though unspoken, you have choices–thus raising your SMV immensely.

    It’s always best to have IDGAS attitude with regard to women–while maintaining a happy go lucky attitude about the whole thing.

  33. “I think we want to believe so for a variety of reasons that appeal to our egos. That, and the fact that if we doubt a woman’s sincerity of her Epiphany we’re turned into dehumanizing monsters is why we want to buy into the ‘change’ a woman conveniently makes when she reaches her SMV’s expiration date.”

    “Waiting” is often the stuff of most chick-lit erotic fan fiction for a reason.
    It builds up the suspense and anticipation.
    It’s not Penthouse forum serendipity stuff (or the Michael Bay equivalent in pop culture theatre).

  34. @Rollo-

    Your comment is the long way around of the modern feminist ideal that women can now “sow their wild oats” before settling down with a marriageable man in the same way men played around before settling down.

    Problem is, is that a man’s ability to couple is not seriously impacted by numbers whereas, statistically, a woman’s is.

    The truth is, is that in this day and age, the only women that are likely safe for marriage are those raised within what are more or less conservative religious cults where their parents have socialized them to the biblical ideal that the man rules the home. These women marry young and tend to marry within their small social world–those who went to their private schools or are closely connected to it.

  35. Thank you for the reminder sir. Any prior post which quotes ME has to be an ace post.

    Maybe the “sexual zoning” is one answer for what things will come to look like: old-style assortive mating sort of becomes moribund.

    Nevertheless, he persisted.*

    So my more refined question might be: how does a woman in Epiphany phase try to qualify her BB man to wait until the third date to fuck if there’s never an opportunity for a first date?

    *Alright, that’s one har-har joke, I can’t help myself. I’m here ’til Thursday, try the veal.

  36. One of the key skills I picked after about the first year of online dating – it only comes from experience though – is spotting the difference between the girls who had what HABD calls “genuine desire” for me but didn’t agree to bang me (this almost always was because I messed up logistics/seeding the pull thus triggering ASD – hence things like handjob from a Tinder girl 90 min after meeting her outdoors in the cold but she wouldn’t come up to my apartment 200 yards away) and girls who just weren’t attracted enough to me do it and viewed me as too much of a beta provider (I did sleep with a couple of girls in this category when I was still doing sugar daddy dating and the vibe was terrible – in effect they were giving me a free sample of the “product” with a hope that I’d want to “buy” or “rent” it more permanently, because they’d already invested an evening in me and had nothing to lose – the sex or BJ was usually crap with this kind of girl – and often they wouldn’t even take off their top or let me touch their tits etc).

  37. “How is this going to translate into social interaction post college and grad school?”

    A form of neo-feudalism in which the aristocratic class are female and the serf class are male. Corporations will fill the role of the House.

  38. Maybe I’m an anomaly in this, but of the 40+ women I’ve had sex with in this lifetime not one of them would I have thought of as a “slut” at the time we were fucking. Especially in my rock star 20s. I can remember playing along with the occasional “good girls” who wanted to wait on fucking me back then, but I did so because I had 3 other go-to fuck buddies concurrent with them. They eventually would be DTF but only after I had (I guess subconsciously) given off the vibe (subcoms) that I was banging other girls while she was sorting out whether or not she wanted to be DTF.

    At no point did I ever think of any of these girls as “easy” or “sluts”, in fact, in my BP conditioned mind would never have allowed that thought to enter my head then. At 17 I felt ‘lucky’ to be getting laid, then in my early to mid 20s it became so easy to escalate a girl to sex I simply didn’t care whether a girl was “quality” or something else. In hindsight that was something that got me into trouble in the long term, but at the time I had no concept of what most guys like to believe is “quality”.

    This is why I say today that there are no such thing as “quality” women, there are just “women”. The good girl who made you jump through hoops and wait like a good boy is the same girl who fucked the guy in the foam cannon party on Spring Break in Cancun – they are the same woman, with the same impulses, the same Hypergamy, and the same convenient priorities that their Hypergamy dictates to them. Every man wants a slut, he just wants her to be HIS slut.

    The Beta mindset buys into the Sandberg plan for Hypergamy. That mindset believes that if he waits long enough, if he jumps through all the hoops, he will become the Alpha (nothing’s sexier in time) to a girl who’s finally ‘come to her senses’. He believes she will ‘save her best sex for him’ and be HIS slut. He’s not concerned with ASD, he just wants her to be HIS slut. This is why the idea of women being preoccupied with being seen as ‘easy’ is a bubbe meise.

    http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-english-lexicon/words/1430

  39. “it’s because they wanted me to respect them. Yet, none of them managed to delay the sex with me beyond our first opportunity to go.”

    respect? too funny. is it possible to respect a toy?

    when a stupid plastic toy annoys me, I take it outside and beat it with a golf club. how many toys have we all had in our lives that we either threw away, broke on purpose or simply abandoned?

    if she claims to want you to respect her, she doesn’t want to be your property. she wants to be your boss. a man can’t respect a replaceable accessory.

    the only things I respect are the things I need to live and the things I cannot control that can injure or kill me. women are neither.

    “Do you accept that it’s possible that she might want to have sex with you straight away but decides not to so as to present herself as a “quality woman” worthy of commitment or not?”

    she knows there are no quality women. she knows this is a game and incredible sex is her top weapon for getting you to see her again. why would she not deploy her 50 megaton nuke if she only had one chance to make an impression?

    she’s a woman. I’ll come back only because I can’t stay away. the ONLY reason I can’t stay away from a woman is because of how she sucks and fucks and the idea that the sucking and fucking could become more fun and interesting in the future.

    every woman knows that every man only wants ONE thing, so the quicker she shows what she’s got, the less chance the guy will excuse himself to take a piss and never come back.

    “Or do you ascertain that all straight women of all ages always fuck a natural alpha straight away as they are afraid of losing him if they hold out? ”

    there is always younger and tighter willing to give it up after an hour. she knows this because she used to do this when she was younger and tighter.

    if she doesn’t spread asap there is no fucking way she’ll ever submit.

    as a man, my commitment is entirely conditional upon looks, blowjobs, sex, cooking and a pleasant feminine attitude. as soon as any one of those things starts to fade I’m gone.

    a woman can’t submit to a man whose commitment is not conditional on him being continually pleased. that’s why “’til death do us part” are the worst words a man can utter and by making a bb man wait for sex in order to secure provisioning, those are exactly the words she wants to hear because it means she’s safe for life or until she pulls the plug and takes half.

    always remember NEXT.

  40. The idea of men dropping out of the SMP is somewhat akin to what life was like for the average male 150 years ago. Most men did not marry and a substantial percentage of women did not either. If they hit the wall–25 back then, they were likely to be spinsters or marry a widowed man later in life.

    He went through three phases in life, generally speaking. The first was young adulthood. He had to establish himself in the world in order to essentially buy a wife. Her father was the gate keeper and he had to impress the father with his where with all. During this phase, he frequented bordellos to releave himself.

    During the second phase, he had acquired the means to support a wife and family and bought his wife. She gave him sex and took care of the children and him in return for his money and support.

    During the last phase of his life, his wife went into menopause and sex went out the door. At this point, he returned to the bordellos and she was, as they said, grateful to have that duty taken over by someone else.

    Contrary to popular belief, women did not outlive their husbands. Many died in child birth or what have you. The average man who was marriageable had multiple wives. Their purpose to care for the home and raise children. It was the last wife, the youngest, who outlived her husband.

    Many men chose to remain single, hung out at their men’s clubs and would simply stop off at the bordello on the way home. Where I live, the one time most prestigious men’s club in the state was built with a tunnel to a bordello across the street and up the block.

    This all changed in the 1920’s for a time. The 20’s had their own “sexual revolution” due to prosperity and women’s rights. It changed again in the 30’s when prosperity ended and women no longer had choices.

    Thus, I do see a return to this in some ways. Men who want to marry will at an age of their choosing, the rest will avail themselves of the pay for play option. Most women will remain on the shelf as they once did.

  41. Rollo in case you are saying that my gals were putting up resistance because of lack of arousal as opposed to trying to impress me or paint themselves in the best light, I’ll need to argue that with you here. Let me be clear. The ‘implications’ that they give off during our initial interactions, is all I am talking about. They play coy, and they drop hints about ‘not being like that’, in response to me vaguely sexualizing the conversation before I’ve developed any true rapport with them. Once I have escalated to kino, or we have moved to a sexually sufficient venue.. it’s all over. The shields are down once I’ve made it known that I want it and now. It’s as if they flip a switch, like fuck it obviously he likes me even though I’m a slut. I think that’s actually the key with getting her to abandon the strategy of waiting to begin with. At this point they seem to be putty in my hands despite any of the things they might have ‘said’. All but one of the girls.. The 37 year old gave a lot of resistance. As I suspected at the time, and found out to be true later, she still had an old flame she hadn’t let go of. She was a one-timer, and she’s the only case where I believe arousal (or competition) was an issue. The rest of them are just projecting the ‘first impression’ they think is the right one. But once you show them you mean now, they gladly do a 180, if the arousal is there, obviously. lol this latest one, as SHE grabbed MY hand and said, “let me show you this other room”, followed by, “I’m not usually like this”, to which I immediately countered, “don’t tell me you’re not like this”.. weird pause.. “you are if it’s the right guy”, with a big smile on my face, did not change her mood one bit. I basically affirmed that I know she’s a slut (sometimes), and laughed about it, and yet she proceeded with alacrity.

    So I agree what you are saying about ego, IF you as a man allow her to truly put you on hold. Then you must proceed to convince yourself it’s for the right reasons, and all the things you said in this last post are true. But in the initial interactions with women, it’s almost always projected that way and was even true in my teenage years from what I recall. I think it makes a man more alpha to a woman when he won’t accept that, and forces her to reveal her true level of attraction, by making it clear that he wants sex asap, by basically ignoring her words and moving forward anyway, not meaning in a forceful or overly aggressive way, just in a presumptuous way (you will bang me and you know it so lets do it). So on the couple of dates I’ve been on where it was left in question, where the logistics weren’t sufficient for immediate sex, or the girl (like the 37 yo) was putting up TRUE resistance, I have a policy there too. She’s not ending the evening without giving me a kiss at the very least. First, I can tell a lot by the kiss. And second, it clarifies whether I will even bother with her again. 37, after dinner, said she had a lot to do, had to end it early, and we’d get together again Friday. My response to that when I dropped her at her home, was not “you sure you don’t want me to come inside”, or even leaning toward her to kiss her.. It was “Alright I’ll see you Friday.. Come here and give me a kiss.” If a girl is on the fence, she’ll capitulate to that, and she did. She gave it up on the next date, and so attraction was there with this girl, but maybe arousal was lacking. Either way, I still established clearly on the first date whether or not she’d bang me, and didn’t have to lie to my ego about her resistance. Never did I internalize, “she’s a good girl”, but rather believed the more simple explanations.. she has other shit going on with other guys.. or she’s just not that into me. So I do agree with you, but I think there’s a difference between real resistance, and just your textbook ‘first impression’ resistance.

  42. @ Rollo

    I don’t think you’re alone in not thinking of them as sluts. Having been raised around girls but having a much older brother and male cousins, I just saw girls/women as sexual creatures period. I just accepted things the way they were. My male role models spent the majority of their time–even in HS, getting laid while trying to keep what they thought of as a “nice girl” spinning so they could marry her post college. They did refer to easy women as “piogs” and laughed about them.

    The only ones I ever thought of as sluts were the ones who told me afterward they were married or had boy friends. The girls who banged me first in HS almost all had BFs at the time, but because I had known them since childhood, I did not think of them as being slutty.

    Women just are. I don’t know why some men fight that idea. The only exceptions are those raised by dominant males. I don’t know how old your daughter is, but it will be interesting to see how you view her behavior as she grows up. My guess is, is that she will look for you and in the process, shun males who don’t live up to the image she has of you. My daughter did so.

  43. You know, I think I have been blesses with the right set of flaws to make me completely happy. I’m too egotistical (so I don’t think poorly of myself), I’m too lazy (so I always search for the easier path in life), I’m too cynical (so I never believe anyone), and I have a very low sex drive (so I don’t fall prey for the “fuck at any cost” pitfalls). I never dated, never felt the urge to go out and date, and I never activelly initiated any talks with women to try and impress them with the goal of dating. I never enjoyed the benefits of online dating because, frankly, I had better things to do online, like shitpost, start flame wars, and play vydia.

    I say I’m happy because I never missed the thrill of “The Game”, as you people call it. Yeah, you can’t miss what you never had, but seeing how there no shortage of thirsty virgins who would give a leg and an arm to just get rid of their v-card, I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. And every single time I see people miserable because of dating/relationship woes, I just shrug and think, “who cares?”. In contrast, I never saw a happy couple together and thought, “man, how I envy them”. I’m usually more focused on what they must have given up as individuals to be together.

    So, seeing such elaborated posts about women sexuality and whatnot makes me smile. Man, did I dodge a bullet or what? It’ so much easier to not care, and now I’m 33 and every day I get from work to home, alone, I count my blessings for not having to play silly mental and social games, nor being worried about “bettering” myself as an individual to score women. It’s comfy.

    As for the women themselves… their value does lie in their ability to look and feel attractive. As long as there are thirsty betas willing to suffer their sillyness, they will act silly. Modern Feminism obviously turn that up to eleven, and “empowers” them by making them even more silly and confrontational, when all they really want is to find a fuck/a provider (depending on the time they left on their biological clocks). They think feminism will help them to go to that market into a position of power (my vagina, my rules! hear me roar, men!), when all it does is cumpl them together into a disform and unattractive mass of identity policy and ressentment. But dellusions of grandeur are also comfy, you see. They’ll keep eating it more and more, as long as the thirsty beta cucks are there to give them whatever meager value they are worth of.

  44. ” . . . he just wants her to be HIS slut.”

    This is rooted in the Madonna/Whore dichotomy. I have come to understand it intellectually, but have never really understood it.

    “Many men chose to remain single, hung out at their men’s clubs and would simply stop off at the bordello on the way home. Where I live, the one time most prestigious men’s club in the state was built with a tunnel to a bordello across the street and up the block.”

    And then the Presbyters came along and ruined everything for everybody.

    “Contrary to popular belief, women did not outlive their husbands.”

    Really? Where the hell did they get that idea from? You only have to read some boy’s novels to know that it wasn’t uncommon for men to go through two or three wives.

  45. Thanks Rollo.

    I actually believe that there is such a thing as holding out to make a man think that the woman is special. But the truth is the same woman who is holding out on you will in the blink of an eye literally bend over for another man somewhere and take it like a pro. Just that right now, you are not that man for her, or maybe you will be that man someday, just not yet. Or maybe you can never be that kind of man for her. She will not do it for you. So you ought to move on. Sooner or later you will meet the girl who will do it for you.

    To paraphrase Rollo, “Any woman who makes you wait for sex, when you finally get, it is not usually worth the wait.”

    As far as can remember, I have found this to be true each and every time.

    When a woman is making you wait, maybe she is gunning for LTR, or you have given her the impression that she will get better treatment by making you wait, or she thinks sex with you is a grind, and that you are not worth it for just the sex…there is something else that she needs from you that will make the grind bearable, and somehow worth it all in all. So she is negotiating. That means either no feels, or weak feels that require some other input for it to add up to acceptable bucks/fucks equity.

    I have had a woman imply that we wait, and I bounced. I LJBFd her. She at first said it was OK, then later said that I had really hurt her by doing that. I told her not to fuck up our friendship since she had told me it was OK. A few months later she starts knocking to be let back in. (And women will say anything to get you back).

    These are women you will have sex with and then just leave. Not out of spite, but out of lack of interest. It is usually just not exciting. I think also a man may sense that the sex is an afterthought for the woman and holds back. And whatever it was that she was gunning for to add up to an acceptable equity will eventually come tumbling out. In fact thinking about it now, I am tempted to think it is probably a let’s wait is worse than flat out NO. A no comes out of a woman who is either repulsed or scared. A wait is a suspended Yes. It reeks of ulterior motives/intentions.

  46. “There is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. ”

    This remark struck me.

    First, I could be wrong about this, but it appears to me often that this “negotiation” also takes place by her externally as well.

    A 29-33 year old woman finally dismounts the carousel and has started dating a steady Eddie beta boyfriend. For this Epiphany Phase woman employing the infamous “90 day wait” tactic, its common for her to repeatedly validate and re-validate (negotiate?) externally with her girlfriends, co-workers, mother, aunts, sisters, even brothers and father (her social security net to break any fall) with probing questions like “He’s really cute, right?”, “He’s hot, don’t you think?”, “He loves cars too, Dad!”, talking up his accomplishments, his position at the company, his utility (good with repairs), his social status, his physique, his alpha traits, even if his actual attributes are comparatively either non-existent or far less noteworthy than those of her previous alpha lovers who rendered her a widow.

    She is hard selling the concept of her steady Eddie unto others. If her external negotiations and sales efforts fail amongst her peers and family, then her 90 day wait (pussy layaway) tactic is vindicated, and she can move on to the next beta male in waiting.

    But it is nevertheless amusing when her beta target is actually not so beta, and she remains convinced that he really is waiting in line with pulled ticket. There will always be legions of such betas in waiting. But I think there is reason to question a woman’s ability to accurately discern this, let alone rely upon it as a sexual relationship strategy.

    I also think that the level of anxiety, despondency, and dare I say, anger, during this so called Ephiphany Phase and shortly after, is woefully understated. The worst point is often when all of her best friends get married off, even when they too were prolific cowgirls in their hay day.
    So “what’s wrong with me?”.

    Thank goodness the media, music and art helps to salve and rationalize such Epiphany Phase experiences, explaining the outcomes as innocent ladies who made mistakes from good intentions, but were preyed upon and taken advantage of by “evil men”.
    There simply will never an honest accounting of her past decisions and behavior.

    With marital rates falling off cliff, a diamond and bridal industry in accelerated free fall, I’d predict even more more anger, misery and general unpleasantness within this 29-35 bracket over the next 10 to 15 years.

  47. So my more refined question might be: how does a woman in Epiphany phase try to qualify her BB man to wait until the third date to fuck if there’s never an opportunity for a first date?

    @ Fred —

    Well, they date, though, they just don’t date people (for the most part) that they meet in de-sexed zones. So, dating apps, friends, parties, clubs — the sexed zones. Schools are actually mixed zones (as are workplaces) … alphas do get action there, as they do everywhere, but the rest of the guys are in a desexed zone where they suffer lots of consequences for pursuing sex. Most of these guys do eventually date, though, and it’s in one of the sexed zones. Yes, their lack of skill development hurts them.

  48. “Kerr, 33, dropped her infamous guard in an interview with The Times in the UK and gave us a glimpse into the innermost workings of her apparent non-sex life with Spiegel, 26, when she admitted the couple don’t currently use any contraception because they’re not having sex until they’re married. “[Spiegel] is very traditional,” said Kerr. “We can’t…I mean we’re just…waiting.”

    billionaire waits for older born again virgin mom.

    “Jo, a 28-year-old single, retail manager from Melbourne, relates to their desire to wait. She has put the breaks on all sexual relationships until she’s found a man whose willing to put a ring on it. In a world of Tinder and casual hookups, she believes chastity is an underrated virtue. “I lost my virginity at 16 to a douche bag, in an indoor sports centre. It was a cold and unemotional experience. He dumped me the next day. I’ve had one relationship and more than a handful of hookups since. I have always struggled with intimacy. So, after one more disastrous sexual relationship that led nowhere, I decided that I was going to take my time and wait for some form of commitment before I jumped into bed. It’s essentially a sex detox to clean the negativity out of my system.”

    The hamster is a remarkable creature. it believes chastity is an underrated virtue while simultaneously living a life entirely devoid of chastity.

  49. “Rise of the born again Virgins”.

    I havent read such a nonsense in a quiet long time….Hahaha

  50. “There simply will never an honest accounting of her past decisions and behavior.”

    delusion aided by copious amounts of box wine, benzos and anti depressants. and cats. and tv.

  51. I got a strong pushback from an over 30 who clearly wanted to sleep with me but also clearly wanted me as beta bucks. I actually did bang her on the 2nd date but on the 3rd date she tried to re-classify me back like we hadn’t already slept together (this was a few days ago). That was a new one for me. Not sure if it’s even salvageable at this point but she was fun and I wouldn’t mind a few more goes at it.

  52. “I actually did bang her on the 2nd date but on the 3rd date she tried to re-classify me back . . .”

    Next!

    “Not sure if it’s even salvageable at this point . . .”

    Counter-intuitively, if you do the above.

  53. @Tuff

    They play coy

    Girls only do this when they are looking for betabux. I see girls do this from time to time. It’s a test as a way to screen for betas in their late 20s on up when they are looking for betas.

    If a girl does this when she’s in her early 20s, she wants to marry early to avoid riding the cock carousel. Probably devout.

  54. So basically it comes down to the “want to fuck”, “will fuck”, and “won’t fuck’ that deti talked about. She finds herself realizing that she has to turn down “want to fuck” and take “will fuck”, but “want to fuck” is so much more appealing that she pushes her “will fuck” off. Maybe just hoping “want to fuck” will come along with the same qualifications AND a ring if she just holds on a biiiit longer. But he never does… and the poor girl has to accept her fate and settle for “will fuck”.

    It does make sense.

  55. Regarding longevity of women before docs used clean technique:

    About half of women died giving birth to their first child. If they made it thru that, odds were good that they’d make it through more kids.

    So, about half of women died very young and the rest lived to be old, toothless hags.

  56. With women nowadays i have clear rules

    1) If the squeeze is not worth the juice -> next!
    Thats means, if we don’t have sex within 2 dates, i next her.

    2) Her problems are HER problems, not mine.
    So whatever reasons she has, whatever problems she has, whatever game she plays,
    whatever born-again-virgin hamstering she has; it’s her issues.

    The same way a woman wants a “made” man, i want a “ready for action” woman.

  57. Girls who bang a lot of guys are going to have diseases. Most girls 20+ have had upwards of 15 guys, assuming 3 per year from age 15. Antibiotics help? Maybe, maybe not.

    There’s a reason that HPV vaccine is mandatory for young people. Even if you’re an old fart, you should get it.

  58. Nova
    There are almost no lesbian women

    True enough. Just watching long enough proves this. A few years perspective, ok.

    The lezzy girls in college? That’s just LUG. “Married” lesbians who after a few years want a child suddenly morph into a threesome with some man, at least for a while. Or the other way, where a married woman frivorces her husband and “marries” another woman only to move on from her to a man.

    Any time you engage these women in conversation in a relaxed, “Nah, I’m not judging, just want to know how you are doing?” way sooner or later the word ” complicated” comes out. As in “I didn’t expect life to become so complicated“. It’s often ironic unintentionally, because a number of these women ran away from something pretty simple and straightforward (heh) to the complicated.

    Something I first saw abouy 10 years ago: women over 50 who were divorced or even widowed suddenly getting a female “roomate”, next thing they’d be driving a Subaru Forester with a rainbow sticker next to the “Coexist” one. There might be more of that showing up if post-Wall women can’t find a beta AFC to settle for. Watch Sheryl Sandburg’s life for cues.

  59. Fred Flange
    Seems to me this lack of one-on-one dating and hookup skills will embed into older post-grad populations. How is this going to translate into social interaction post college and grad school?

    From what I see it leads to people desperate for a group to belong to, and a lot of cognitive dissonance. Plus a lot of frustrated people. Very frustrated, because the girls want men and the men want girls but they’ve both been trained to act more like siblings than anything else.

    Watching some 20-somethings attempting to flirt is really strange: start-stop jerkiness where she sends off IOI”s that he can’t read, he tries to be amusing but comes off as nerdy or clowny, lather, rinse, repeat.

    Dating coaches are a growing business for a reason. Ditto basic table manners / etiquitte.

  60. I know about AF/BB.
    I know there are no good girls.
    I know there’s no quality women.
    I know there’s no unicorns.
    I know AWALT.
    I know Hypergamy doesn’t care.
    I know women know these things.

    BUT They don’t know that I know that’s why they try to frame themselves as “good girls” to try and raise their SMV in my eyes because they know deep down that they are unworthy of my commitment.

  61. All these “born again virgins” episodes will inevitably end the same:

    They’ll keep their Betas waiting. While at the same time loosing their “second virginity” to the Alphas who’l make them wet.
    And they’ll tell the same stories, in order to convince themselves they’re not cheating and they’re still “second-time virgins”:

    “there was no love involved, so I’m still a virgin”

    or

    “I only took it in the ass, so I’m still a virgin”

    XD

  62. @cheupez, I wish I knew WTF was going on with WordPress’ spam filtering in this new version. I have the friggin gate all open and all bans & blocks off and it’s still flagging some posts.

  63. @constrainedlocus, when you date a girl you’re really dating her BFF, her mom, her sisters, her hair stylist, etc. that’s always going to be a factor. The difference here is that she’s using the same filtering resources and social proof affirming mechanisms she always has with the Alpha bad boys, only now it’s with the Beta provider. The Sisterhood at large is keenly aware (like a hivemind) of her position in life and what her phase of maturity makes her necessitous of.

    With the Alphas in her peak SMV years the Sisterhood lived vicariously through her behavior and likely gave very little caution to her because it would make little difference in her decisions to get after it with him. With the Epiphany Phase Beta however, the Sisterhood IS the litmus test for his acceptability. Likewise, they too judge his quality through the same lens and using the same Epiphany Phase rationales and narrative only on a larger scale.

  64. “they know deep down that they are unworthy of my commitment.”

    totally fucking agree.

    you say “I love you” and she thinks, “why?”

    you say “I do” and she thinks, “you’re pathetic”

    you say “yes, dear” and she thinks, “I despise your weakness”

    you say “please” and she thinks, “I have to get away from you”

    not that any man should give a shit what a woman thinks, but it is useful to have a basic understanding of how they operate.

    “You really are my brother in spirit.”

    I think we’re all brothers here. we all know the red pill is delicious. and if it wasn’t for the mano I never would have heard of “steak and blowjob day”

    me: you didn’t say happy holiday

    her: what does that mean?

    me: today is steak and blowjob day

    her: (laughs) is that a thing?

    me: one month after valentines day, but this one is for guys.

    her: that’s awesome. (pause) but that’s kind of every day for you.

    me: shut up and start celebrating

  65. Off Topic:
    @Rollo
    Purchased a copy of your books and gave them to someone who needed them. Thanks. HST.

  66. “So my more refined question might be: how does a woman in Epiphany phase try to qualify her BB man to wait until the third date to fuck if there’s never an opportunity for a first date?:”

    The lack of one on one dating has been going on for a long time. Rollo had a post about women asking for a bigger and bigger supply of men from their social group. I thought it was titled “More Men” and I would link it, but I went way back and it didn’t show up. But women will depend more on having their friends introduce them to somebody, somebody at work finding somebody they know of. Where you think dating will go is where it’s at already.
    Apps, orchestrated social events, and depending on group connections. There may even be an increase in things like this business that was on Under Cover Boss, where they teach you how to paint while serving wine. It will be seen as the kind of place you can go to meet but still claim that you’re not there for that, you’re there for the painting. A buffer like the friend group hang out is to actual dating.

    Too bad there’s not a table of contents with corresponding thumbnails. Think that’d be a good addition if possible.

  67. Dating is sometimes called “hanging out”…kind of an informal date and the zone can be sexual/asexual, depending on the guy’s SMV and the girl’s SMV. Usually a social circle thing. Either sex may initiate.

    Group hangouts give women an opportunity to appraise men’s social skills in a social circle setting. (This sentence has been brought to you by the number 16 and the letter “S”.) Meetups serve this purpose as well.

  68. @ Olongapo
    March 15, 2017 at 5:27 pm

    “A perfect storm so-to-speak however……what I have learned with the 40-50 year old crowd, that desperation amongst these women is often more effective than Spanish Fly…..especially if you are is reasonable shape (no grandpa bods). It’s incredibly easy to obtain sex and sometimes material items (had one buy me a kayak one time) but……never, never, never lose frame. The shit tests never stop. The downside is that you have to fend off some women who just don’t take of their bodies.”

    So, so true, bro. Just yesterday i had a 50+ woman chatting me up in the supermarket, then again in the car park. If she was hotter i might have been interested, but at least she had a try & i let her down gently. I’m a young-looking middle aged man, well dressed, fit & attractive, so the flirting from middle-aged women happens quite regularly. Back in the day all my lovers were 10-15 years younger, sometimes even 20, believe it or not. Earlier in the day another showed me her little herb garden at her place of work where i had an appointment, when i told her i was good in the kitchen. She is a sexy white South African, and whilst she mentioned her husband also likes to cook, i really felt that i could have leaned in and kissed her, or at least amped up a bit sexual tension, which i think i’ll do next time. My current lover is mid-40’s with a hot body and very wild in bed. She loves me being uber-Alpha, and just gets even hornier when i laugh at her shit tests. It works, men. Frame is everything…

  69. Hanging out isn’t new. Women have been doing this for a long time–going with a group of friends to a club for dancing. The males are there to cock block unknown males. The only way in is to know someone in the crowd.

    Conversely, it’s not a bad way to meet other women outside the group. You have to get your female friends to do the work for you sometimes, but in my experience, they’ll be more than happy to.

  70. How does the sexual marketplace change when men wise up. When those disguised as a beta are actually alpha and decide to just play along for the free pussy waste the females time ?

    As a low smv man that is what I am encountering now is being their beta bux option I am able waste their time and spin multiple ltr plates who think i’m their long term strategy to get married.I don’t give a shit about them I just think about how they wouldn’t fuck me on the first night and gladly waste their precious wall years.

    Women would not know what to think if all men stood up

  71. Rollo’s post and the comments here are good info. As long as a Beta man can identify when when a former carousel rider “might” consider him as her meal ticket rather than her tingle tickler, he can plan accordingly, as long as he doesn’t lose sight of reality. He can get some milk before the cow dries up, and without having to buy said cow. All he might need to do is make her believe he is in the market for a cow, and has several leads to check out.

  72. @ alphabucks

    “Playing along for the free pussy and wasting females time”.

    I met a 29 year old 2 years back (me 47 at that time) and plated her for just over a year before I started to feel guilty about wasting her time as she’s ultra low drama and very sweet.

    I sat her down told her I was not going to get married ever again and that I didn’t want kids.
    She said it was ok but then started getting lazy in the bedroom so I finished things only for her to come back 3 months later.

    Things are all good in the bedroom, but I presume she is looking for her BB while using me for sex and affection in the meanwhile, I have no problems with this ‘arrangement’ we don’t speak about it and she seems happy as ever.

    This is the only time so far that I’ve let guilt get the better of me with a girl as most of them deserve what’s coming to them.

    Instead of Being outright deceitful these days I tend to set them a challenge.

    Her “so what are you looking for? / /what do you want? /where do you see this going? ” etc..

    Me “Im not sure right now but with the right woman anything is possible”.

    Of course I don’t tell her that the “right woman” is likely 10+ years younger than her/hotter than her a multimillionairess who wants to marry me without a prenup. (because that’s what it would take).

    She will of course hamster my reply as “you could be the right woman” and see it as a challenge to become that woman, meanwhile I sit back and reap the benefits of her ” best behaviour sales pitch stage” until she gets demotivated by my lack of reciprocation/ commitment.

    It’s generally not necessary to outright lie, you can do it by omission because her hamster will do the rest of the work for you.

    It saves a lot of “you said” and “you promised” accusations because you didn’t .

    Women do this all the time so no way I’m going to feel guilty about “seeding their hamsters” .

    There’s an old saying “you can’t con an honest man”.
    Well I hold women up to the same standard and have found them to be lacking so why should I feel guilty?

  73. @Playdontpay
    She will of course hamster my reply as “you could be the right woman” and see it as a challenge to become that woman, meanwhile I sit back and reap the benefits of her ” best behaviour sales pitch stage”

    Yeah I’m starting to recognize this in the crowd I’m dating (40+). Then they find some lame excuse to dump your ass when they realize the payoff ain’t coming.

  74. It will be seen as the kind of place you can go to meet but still claim that you’re not there for that, you’re there for the painting.

    Yep. That’s been going on for a long time, too, really. Things like book groups, running groups, cycling groups, etc, where you meet up around activities. Although everyone who joins one of these things generally likes the activity in itself, many who join are open to meeting a mate (or a side piece) there, too. These are not uncommon ways that people meet others, although it is admittedly very hit and miss in terms of whether you will find someone there who is interesting to you and who is interested in you. If you’re an attractive, higher SMV man, you don’t need to bother with this kind of thing, anyway, because you have lots of opportunities in pretty much every setting. But the lower SMV people who are not competitive in high-competition settings like bars and clubs use these kind of alternative means to find people, and that’s been going on for some time.

  75. The timing of this article fits Rollo’s post perfectly. Behold, I reveal unto you the phenomenon of the “born again virgin.” Notice how this phenomenon is limited to women ages 29-33 who have decided to wait for the “right guy” before having sex. For these women to convince themselves that they are, in some sense, virgins after they have ridden the cock carousel just because they say so is the ultimate in female hamstering.

    http://www.whimn.com.au/love/intimacy/the-rise-of-bornagain-virgins/news-story/b2998c8e3f6f8451de73ca7940f8ea90

  76. “But the lower SMV people who are not competitive in high-competition settings like bars and clubs use these kind of alternative means to find people, and that’s been going on for some time.”

    There’s yoga sessions occasionally hosted by a scenic, popular venue nearby. I stumbled into the post-party social after a jog. About 50 people, ratio was 5:1 women:men. Lots of professional women, just pre-post wall. The men were in yoga pants, flamboyant ones too, men’s chatter was yoga-centered but not sexual. I plopped on a mat in a clutch of 4 20 something women. “Ya wanna see my downward dog?” Heh. When I mentioned dudes in yoga pants. “You like it…right? Man bun and man bulge? It’s a commanding performance…right?” they rolled their eyes, laughed. It was fun.

    I don’t yoga, but admit it was a fish-barrel scene, the competition weak, women ready-to-go.

  77. ‘Socially, she’s got countless sources of ‘go grrrl’ moral reinforcement from both men and women.”

    The reinforcement is analogous to female-female complements. Contrived when given and received. The pre-post wall women know the score…well the hindbrain does. No amount of reinforcement replaces the party years sexual success.

    Single female sulking turned overeating and drinking around here creates a positive feedback loop. As their SMV declines, their weight climbs, and down goes the SMV.

  78. “A woman holding out on a guy during this phase of her life really isn’t about any moral epiphany, it’s really her hindbrain coming to terms with having to make herself become sexual with a type of guy whom previously she would never have naturally flowed into having sex with.”

    This resisitance is similar to cultural resistance to the pink pill idea. “Flibanserin is a novel, non-hormonal pill to treat hypoactive sexual desire disorder in premenopausal women,”

    It’d incline them to fuck an undesirable guy. The FI will have none of that!

  79. If ever wife and I part, i will build out a mixed use corner development of three commercial bays downstairs – yoga studio, coffe shop and champagne bar/tapas restaurant with aprtments upstairs, of which I will have a corner unit. Across from a uni with 25k enrolled.

  80. Yeah isn’t it funny how the HuffPo Clucking Cartel completely misstates how flibanserin works, as if it was the mythical Spanish Fly you dosed a girl’s drink with and then she’d hump anything! And like it!

    Not reading the literature which states clearly that, like viagra or Cialis, the stuff works (assuming it does) only if you have the mental inclination to be DTF but aren’t sure the chemical triggers are properly flying.

    But they don’t see that part, ‘cos we’re the Most Smartest Bestest Coll-Grad Generation ever generated and we were chosen to lead, not to read! Besides learning shit gets in the way of snap judgments..

  81. @Sentient,
    I’d be happy to design it for you, I am working on a few operations like that right now.

    I admit I had not thought about them in terms of being honey pots for bored Alpha investors.

  82. EhIntellect
    “I don’t yoga, but admit it was a fish-barrel scene, the competition weak, women ready-to-go.”

    What a day its going to be…

  83. @Sentient
    I will structure all of the financing and take a modest, rear-facing unit in lieu of fees. If that’s of no value to you, I will start and operate the yoga shop. As long as it is “live/work” zoned so I can maintain my sacred chamber on premises.

    I happen to speak yoga. In fact, I currently pull a few shifts a month in a studio now. It takes four women all day to change a light bulb. Between the gossip and backstabbery, there is simply no time for actual work to get done. I figure I could run a place at 1/3 the womanpower. Namaste.

    @EhIntellect
    It can certainly be fish barrel, but its also subject to the kinds of fish that live in barrels.

    IOW, I’ve found that women that are involved in a constant array of ‘spiritual exploration and self-improvement’ aka mindfulness, being present, acceptance, letting go, aromatherapy, singing bowls, and other forms of self-soothing, to actually be less aware of reality and thus apt to the trappings of solipsism and other leathery baggage. They have a hole to fill. Indeed.

    That said, there are many who also let the “universe” and their “body” decide what just “feels right”, i.e. manbunfux. They are still looking for their forever man but are so prone to ensnare themselves in the tripwires of their dopamine addictions that they just can’t get fully step off the carousel.

    You don’t have to be particularly skilled in providing magic carpet rides either. Just have to know a bit of the secret language and let them adlib the rest of the story. They have the stories down pat. You are just the man in the upcoming chapter. Abs do help tho. So does good ‘energy’. Or a spiritual sleeve-tat. Preferably acquired somewhere exotic. But dirty exotic, not white-sand Caribbean exotic. I’m not into ink, so I stick with abs+energy.

    Yoga birds are really good at post-facto rationalizations. As are most disciples of self-directed religions that are absent the omnipotent, judgy man in the clouds. Check out “Kumare” (2011 documentary) for a twisted lol on the yoga cult.

    I used to feel kinda bad for these women. Until I realized how much disdain they carry around for the average man (Be Handsome, Don’t be Unattractive) It’s really come forward post-election. There is a lot of anger, resentment, jealousy, and hostility pent-up with them.

    Their social-political beliefs and the shitstorm that is the SMP/MMP are deeply connected, but of course nobody sees it that way, hence the meta-histrionics and doubling down.

    Interestingly, when I tire of the constant angling for MOAR, I dial up my deplorable, but that actually draws them in. I guess they are looking for strength, even if it comes in a package that is counter to their utopian delusions.

    But to me it feels like I’d be taking in a retired circus lion, just roaming around my house waiting to sense weakness so she can chew off my face. So I put them back in the barrel. And I’m sure they make sense of it so it can “just feel right” with the next guy. Though the text: “I miss you, I hope you are well” is always 60-90 days forthcoming. But unless the sex is sizzletits, I’m not keen on re-plating. Its like a good song on a scratched record.

  84. @Razor – I’ve had exposure to the post-wall women’s self-improvement/spiritual stuff. My running theory is that this is them consciously trying to make sense of the world and how they can improve whatever results they are currently getting. Commendable, kind of like what a man would do.

    Unconsciously (hamster), it really is them trying to reconcile, justify and assauge all they fucked up shit they’ve done and still do and will do. At some level, they know something’s not quite right, but instead of questioning the FI and why there is still discord even when they’ve partaken in the FI mindset, they double down on the woo-woo shit that got them there, only now with vague nonsensical new-agey phrasing.

    Exotic eastern philosophies are often misinterpreted to fit their own existing biases. For example, ‘making your own reality’ with all its variations to me means: stay positive, focus on your goals and what you want to happen. But do this while you still do the shit work required.

    However, I have literally heard these women say things like, “… all you have to do is sit around thinking positive thoughts of what you want, and the universe will sense your new reality and deliver it.” They never incorporate the actual work needed to make it happen. I mean, what good is a new religion/philosophy if you have to do shit you don’t want to? Let’s make a new FI-approved one in which judgments are bad, accept everyone, love, peace, kumbaya and gimme gimme for free.

    All this naturally dovetails into the “since my reality is created by me, I am the center of the universe” solipsism and any criticisms can be swept aside since they aren’t real if she so chooses. They don’t explore the end-game repercussions of solipsism: nihilism from the realization and sadness from its implications that everything you’ve done, your dreams, everyone you’ve loved, your family, children… were never real.

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