The Epiphany Phase Revisited

One of the best things about the Red Pill being a praxeology is that nothing’s set in stone. Like any good science there’s always room for reinterpretation and updating ideas per new information, or sometimes it’s simply something or some observation that seemingly went overlooked that adjust an old interpretation. Reader Playdontpay brought something to light in an old post, Three Strikes:

I agree with the 3 Strike rule for younger chicks of 30 and under but once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.

It’s probably because at this age her clock is ticking and she doesn’t have time to “waste” on flings that would won’t lead to commitment, so she re-invents herself as a “quality woman” in the hope of convincing you that she is LTR/ marriage material.

It’s up to you to decide if you can push the envelope to 5-6 dates max but I would only do this if I was sure it was her ASD holding her back and not down to a low interest level.

If you wait to date 5-6 and the sex is sub par, don’t stick around waiting for it to improve as you’ve been sold a lemon and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze!

This seemingly innocuous comment made me think a lot about some of my older material and how newer readers might interpret it. There’s actually quite a bit to unpack in this short response, so with the benefit of over a decade of hindsight I thought I might riff on it.

“…once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.”

Any long time reader of this blog will immediately associate this phenomenon with the Epiphany Phase women enter when the reality of their lessened capacity to compete intrasexually with their younger sisters becomes unignorable. Generally this phase comes at or around the ages of 29-31, however, depending on circumstance this may come sooner for some women (those whose attractiveness is already understood to be suboptimal), and sometimes much later for others (women who bought into the lie that their attractiveness is subjective and indefinite). I’ve written many essays about this phase and dedicated two sections of Preventive Medicine to it. It’s very recognizable, and very understandable when you have a good grasp of how women prioritize the ‘needs’ of their sexual strategy as they mature.

The Epiphany Phase is really a woman’s subconscious knowledge of The Wall coming into her cognitive acknowledgement. However, what’s not so easy to grasp is why a woman who’s come to this phase would actually make it more difficult for a prospective long-term, parentally invested, hopefully idealized, mate to become intimate with her?

On several occasions I’ve proposed just the opposite; that Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game. Even for women in the luteal phase of ovulatory shift, (when by all means she ought to be seeking the provisioning, comforting and rapport of more Beta men’s attentions) women will be prompted to sexual immediacy and urgency when presented with the prospects of fucking – and hopefully locking down – what she sees as an Alpha man. It is entirely possible to bypass women’s natural, ovulation-induced, Hypergamy when you present yourself as the right Alpha incentive to her (I’ve done this myself). This is the prioritization women’s natural sexual strategy has, and in reality, a woman faking an orgasm for a perceived Alpha, or having proceptive sex with him in her luteal phase only confirms the urgency women’s natural Hypergamy has with regard to locking down an optimal man.

But why would a woman who, for all intents, knows her capacity to attract men is waning be so insistent on delaying her becoming intimate with him? This seems counterintuitive, particularly in light of the fact that most women in their younger, Party Years eagerly had sex with men for whom they made little or no ‘rules’ for in order to become sexual with them. It’s a common enough idea in the manosphere that women will ride the ‘cock carousel’ in their 20s until they realize a lessened capacity to attract guys and then seek to cash out of the sexual marketplace before or around 30. Usually this ends up with a girl settling for a Beta in waiting.

But why would the rules and prerequisites be something she insists on now but didn’t while she was in her sexual peak years?

Vaginas and Moral Compasses

There was a recent article on the HuffPo quoting Cate Blanchett saying “My moral compass is in my vagina“, and while this might be the red meat clickbait the HuffPo relies upon for revenue, it adequately sums up how Hypergamy, a woman’s sexual agency and a woman’s capacity to utilize it throughout her life directs women’s intrinsic and extrinsic priorities throughout their lives. I realize this wasn’t how Cate intended her comment to be taken; she wanted to express some inherent guiding principle for women in an era she believes women are still repressed in, but in doing so she illustrates the real compass women have with regard to moral interpretations of their ideas and behaviors. If something gratifies, optimizes or otherwise benefits a woman’s driving impulse of Hypergamy, it sets a rationale for moral interpretation by her. Or in other words, if it’s good for what optimizes Hypergamy, it’s good for women.

As men we want the easy answer to be the best answer. So it seems obvious to us that a woman making arbitrarily ‘new’ rules of intimacy for her prospectively long-term suitors would follow some epiphany where she comes to her senses, realizes the error of her ways and strives for being some new ‘quality woman’ to represent herself as. As such, her quality should symmetrically be matched by a man’s quality. And that quality should logically take some time to determine. This is, in fact, most women’s self and public rationale for making a ‘quality’ man wait for her sexually when in the past she had no such obstacles for the hawt guy she met on spring break in the Cancun foam cannon party.

We want to believe this because we’re taught to expect such reasonings from a girl who now, at 29, wants to get right with God or “start doing things the right way” with guys. Social conventions abound that condition us to expect that once women, “get it out of their systems” (by following the Sandbergian sexual strategy) she’ll realize the errors of her youthful indiscretion and magically transform into a “Quality Woman”. We want to believe it, and it’s in women’s best interests that we do believe it.

Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself. They love nothing better than the idea of the reformed porn star who’s finally “grown up” and come to her senses about the error of her youth’s indiscretions with the guys they grew up to hate as an archetype. Better still, they’ll feed that rationale/fantasy in the hope that her Epiphany will include her saving her best sex for him since now she’s come to understand that it’s been the ‘nice guys’ all along she ought to have been getting with if not for ‘society’ convincing her otherwise.

The reformed-slut-with-epiphany archetype is a trope Beta men want to forgive because it represents vindication for their self-image, Blue Pill conviction and perseverance (they never gave up on her). Women with the pasts that make them good candidates for eliciting this rationale know men well enough to see the utility it has in securing Blue Pill men’s resources and long term security.

Socially, she’s got countless sources of ‘go grrrl’ moral reinforcement from both men and women. In fact, as a Man, just my bringing this to light makes me guilty of being “judgmental” in popular female-defined culture. And that’s the insurance women will always have in their Epiphany Phase – whether it’s a reformed slut coming to terms with the Wall at 29, or the ex-wife who frivorced her dutiful (but unexciting) Beta to have her own epiphany and discover herself a la Eat, Prey, Love, the social net of feminine-primacy is there with easy rationalizations to catch any and every woman’s Hypergamous fall.

Holding Out

Yet still she hesitates in giving herself to that Beta provisioner.

We excuse this hesitation by claiming it’s because, now, she wants to be extra sure about him. The Alpha men she so effortlessly gave herself to were all, of course, wolves in sheep’s clothing (e.g. men are evil) and in her epiphany she must exercise caution. And if you think it’s because of anything else, well, you’re a misogynist, so shut up.

A woman holding out on a guy during this phase of her life really isn’t about any moral epiphany, it’s really her hindbrain coming to terms with having to make herself become sexual with a type of guy whom previously she would never have naturally flowed into having sex with. We like to think a now ‘quality woman’ is deserving of putting a man through a set of qualifying tests, that seems like appropriate prudence, but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

Later she’ll bemoan that she’d rather cry over an asshole than date a guy who bores her, but in the Epiphany she has to force this subconscious understanding down in order to better insure her Hypergamous security into the future.

This latent, limbic sexual uncertainty has nothing to do with vetting the ‘perfect guy’ for the ‘quality woman’ it’s about a woman, who likely for the first time in her life, is presented with the challenge of having to bypass her hindbrain Hypergamy in order to secure her long term security. Thus, we see this demographic of women make even more rules for a Beta to deserve her intimacy, while a more Alpha tingle-generating man she was more than willing to break rules to get to bed with.

It’s important that we focus on the idea that a man, any man, ought to be deserving of a woman’s sexual ‘gift’. We get this rationale from the affirmations of even the most well meaning of men. Even though the concept of Hypergamy is regularly proven through her Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy prior to her epiphany, the Beta mindset is always ready to do more and expect more from men who would get with his ‘quality woman’. A woman on the expiration of her SMV likes nothing more than to be told, and to encourage the idea in men, that “she deserves better” in spite of her past decisions.

Yet still she hesitates having sex with the ‘perfect’ guy who is ready to overlook all of it.

This is an internal conflict between what her psyche knows she needs to do to ensure her security, and what her hindbrain wants in an exciting Alpha lover. What “flips” in a woman’s head is her inability to resolve her sexuality with her self-consciousness in having to force it to be with a man who likely doesn’t merit it for her – but this meriting her sex, up to now, has always been a process she left to her hindbrain to decide. In a sense it is quality control, but not for the self-righteous rationales we’re supposed to believe it is.

There is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. At some point, what sexualized qualities satisfies a woman’s Id she no longer has the capacity to maintain so there comes an inner conversation of negotiation over what available man represents the best compromise depending on her need and her acknowledgement of it – and her true capacity to satisfy her long term security with or without him.

Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.

There’s a bit more to this reevaluation of the Epiphany Phase I may do soon in another post. However, I think I should add here that a lot of not-so-genuine confusion on the part of well-meaning guys about why a woman would so easily break her own rules to fuck an Alpha guy while require them to jump through hoops to get to a mitigated sexuality with her is primarily due to a woman’s hindbrain expectation about what sex should be like with either type of guy.

I’ve related in the past how women will gladly engage in a same night lay with a guy they see as a hot Alpha sex opportunity, but would never consider if she saw the guy as “relationship material”. This situation is a clichéd joke now – we laugh at it as “chick logic”, but the more Blue Pill men become aware of the Myth of the Good Guy the more these quandaries will give them pause to think about the women whose pasts they’re ready to excuse and the women they’re simply never going to consider “relationship material” themselves. They’ll think twice about the social order that’s encouraging them to “man up and marry those sluts”.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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walawala
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Interesting. I think it comes down to a guy’s game and attitude. I recently banged a girl who works long hours and doesn’t get out much. We met online. I was asking her about this and about an observation I made of these couplings of girls together where one seemed to be dressed like a guy and the other very feminine–a lesbian coupling. The girl laughed and said she wasn’t sure whether they were actually lesbians but many of these girls living abroad and working needed sex and affection. Direct quote: “People say women don’t need sex, it’s not true”.… Read more »

walawala
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Adding this passage:

“”Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.””

The definition of “hamstering”…

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Alex West
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You can never bet against biology and win.

Olongapo
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“Latent limbic uncertainy”. Bingo. Woe to the poor guy who thinks that he can negotiate desire. This internal struggle is post-Wall all the way into peri-menopause. Some women are self-aware enough to recognize this, most aren’t and most provisioners, despite having had their teeth kicked several times, still have a hard time with this piece. The mind is telling her to settle down and her tiny little amygdala is telling her to still seek the best genes. A perfect storm so-to-speak however……what I have learned with the 40-50 year old crowd, that desperation amongst these women is often more effective… Read more »

Shore guy
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It’s a lot of explanation for basically she’s not into you. She doesn’t have the hots for you. That’s it. Don’t over do the thinking. As Rollo has said before you can’t negotiate attraction. The BS lines don’t matter it’s only the action.

Anthony DiValentin
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Had an interesting fuck this past weekend. Met her with two friends and one of their husbands in a bar. First one, single blonde (SB) asked me to let her read my tattoos. I smiled and nodded, then walked past to the bar. After getting one of the best Guinness Stout drafts I’ve ever tasted, I sat down at a nearby table with my back to their group, and concentrated on the live acoustic act and my beer, and texted a plate I have spinning. About an hour later, I go for a refill, and step up to the bar… Read more »

SJF
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@Anthony

Cool sophomoric story bro. Doesn’t actually tie in to to the original post essay.

Next time take it to field reports regarding drunk sex with hot women.

https://therationalmale.com/field-reports/

Atticus
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Girls that are “easy”, which is now socially acceptable (and most girls) are not what a man biologically wants in a wife.

Women inherently know this. So when she’s ready to settle down she can’t be “easy”.

I think this is what you’re saying.

pinelero
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The epiphany phase was the biggest revelation to men upon swallowing the red pill. I got divorced at age of 34, lean, lifting and meeting new women. Many times I would never have to pay my way with these women as they were entertaining me. Now it’s apparent why this was happening. I

Mineter
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Heh. The three date rule is probably obsolete. I think that if she isn’t the one clearly after having sex with you on the second date (not wanting to come across as a slut by doing it on the first date) then a man should probably fold his hand ie she’s not into you. Don’t bother asking her out on a third date. If she fishes for it, you could tell her “you know, I just don’t think I find you sexually appealing enough to keep this going”. YMMV.

Anubis
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@pinelro When I divorced 10 years ago I hadn’t yet learned what I know now, but I made a best effort (listening to Leykis, etc) to be the opposite of the beta-shmuck I was before. I pretty much made that my guiding rule: “Don’t do what I used to do” In my 40s and dating mostly 2-12 years younger, I quickly found a couple things that worked well for me. Always show a little less interest in them they were showing in me – never be the more eager one. And to randomly lose interest for a bit and pull… Read more »

rugby11
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“Everyone hesitates to do something that they REALLY don’t want to do.”
palmasailor

Tarl
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Local bulletin board has some schmuck reporting that his girlfriend, in her early 30s, revealed she used to have a “sugar daddy” (which probably means that in reality she was turning tricks on a streetcorner). He is bitter because she made him wait a long time for sex. He is also repulsed by this information and is having trouble getting over it. Naturally, Team Woman is chiming in with “you should forgive and forget!”

Epubliusrex
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It’s hard not to blame her. You have to see it from her standpoint. She likely got played by more than one alpha male who was keeping a harem. She fell in love, thought she had hit gold and he eventually moved on. As others and Rollo have pointed out, marriage is a great investment for a man and it means going w/o to get something positive in return. For me, it was money and looks. I might date a poor girl and fuck her, but middle class life sucks. Twenty years later I can bump into one of these… Read more »

cheupez
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And to imagine that THIS HERE is the standard advice out there!!!

Anubis
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@cheupez – that Wiki How page – oh my – that’s all the shit I was told growing up. Perform. Wait Act Beta. and Negotiate Desire. All that did was set me up to take the first low SMV woman who came along and finally showed interest in me. That’s my #1 regret in my life – being a fucking beta chump – and that beats out an opportunity that would have made me a couple million dollars. I have second copy of The Rational Male, volumes 1 & 2, set aside with along with a couple other books (Bachelor… Read more »

Playdontpay
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About a year after I started reading this blog i fucked a 41 year old still cute milf/cougar. She held out on me till date 3 despite the fact I knew she was into me. I still remember her saying “I just broke my 5 date rule with you”. I think she wanted to fuck on date one but thought that I would consider her a slut and rule her out for commitment if she did. I’m sure she perceived me as alpha but she still risked making me wait till date 3 because she weighed up the chances of… Read more »

tsotha
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…but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

Yep. She’s not fucking him because she wants to fuck him. She’s fucking him because that’s the only way he’s going to propose to her.

The line between this and prostitution is pretty damn fuzzy, IMO.

Playdontpay
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@ cheupez

Wow that wiki how page should be titled.
” FI guide for AFC’s looking to becoming the perfect cuckold for their pedestalised oneitis” .

BC
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These days if a chick hits me with ” I have an 5date/ 3 week” or whatever ‘rule’ my reply is always ”yea but I’m the man your going to break that rule for.” It works unsurprisingly well.

Gentlemen, add that line, together with firm eye contact and an understated but confident smirk, to your repertoire of stock phrases.

Water Cannon Boy
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True. I also think the hesitation is about the man she thinks can’t get any or has never been able to get any ( or at least can get a little but has to work hard at it) suddenly thinking “hold on a second, I think I’m sexy now” and getting the idea to capitalize on that. Get together too quickly in her mind, she risk the guy feeling maybe I can spin plates, and then the commitment on his part gets a rethink. So she tries to get a signature on a contract. Goes back to what you’ve said… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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@Tsotha
there’s two sayings to think about why people say them.
Prostitution being the worlds oldest profession. And never getting involved with women actors because they never stop acting.

theasdgamer
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If you think that a woman is withholding sex because she’s looking for commitment, disabuse her of the notion that you are an option for a boyfriend. Either she will stop playing Hide the Vagina ™ or she will move on and stop wasting your time.

If she doesn’t want sex with you right away, she’s not really into you.

rugby11
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Power
http://wp.me/p6SXrP-ju9

Playdontpay
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@ theadsgamer @ Rollo I agree 100% that if she doesn’t WANT sex with you straight away she isn’t that in to you. Do you accept that it’s possible that she might want to have sex with you straight away but decides not to so as to present herself as a “quality woman” worthy of commitment or not? Or do you ascertain that all straight women of all ages always fuck a natural alpha straight away as they are afraid of losing him if they hold out? Do you not think they may also fear losing an alpha due to… Read more »

cheupez
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@playdontpay

“FI guide for AFC’s looking to becoming the perfect cuckold for their pedestalised oneitis.”

Exactly!

Imagine a 14 year old boy reading that, believing it, and living the rest of his life believing that. What a pity.

cheupez
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If she is holding out so you do not take her for easy then you have probably given her the impression that you are available for LTR or made her imagine that she will be treated better by holding back or made her think that screwing her is not exciting enough in of itself unless she is getting you for LTR (negotiated fuck). To paraphrase Rollo: “Any woman who makes you wait for sex, when you finally get it, it is not that great.” This has been true for me each single time. No exception. Unfortunately, those who wait are… Read more »

pinelero
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@Anubis – I am since married, but in the past I didn’t have any RP resources. When I got divorced my ex-“wife” actually said to me that she was looking for a bigger/better deal. I took that piece of advice to heart as my own strategy as well. My first marriage was the typical AFC blue pill disaster – fat uneducated wife, dirty house, and primarily my own failing providing proper masculine leadership. Like you I resolved to up may hand and do it differently. I wouldn’t date women that expected me to pay their way, because I was burned… Read more »

Novaseeker
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The girl laughed and said she wasn’t sure whether they were actually lesbians but many of these girls living abroad and working needed sex and affection.

@wala —

There are almost no lesbian women (statistically, significantly fewer women identify as lez than men identify as gay), but …. almost all women are open to going lez for an encounter or a relationship if the circumstances are there (generally either lack of access to attractive men, or wanting to stay away from men for a time for some reason).

TuffLuv
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“It’s a lot of explanation for basically she’s not into you. She doesn’t have the hots for you. That’s it. Don’t over do the thinking. ” I don’t know about that.. since divorce, my gals have been 28, 33, 37, 41, 44, and I’ve recently started up with a woman in her late 40’s… all in some part of the epiphany or possibly wall phase. With regards to sex, they used different levels of ASD or (attempting) holding out with various rationalizations, but it’s because they wanted me to respect them. Yet, none of them managed to delay the sex… Read more »

Zarathusra
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Apropos link: https://nypost.com/2017/03/16/the-rise-of-the-born-again-virgin/

It’s just out in the open at this point. The assumption that we’re to take women’s epiphanies ar face value. Can’t make this stuff up.

Zarathusra
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Apropos link: https://nypost.com/2017/03/16/the-rise-of-the-born-again-virgin/

It’s out in the open now. The assumption that we’re to take women’s epiphanies at face value. Can’t make this stuff up.

ChocDoc
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@ tsotha
March 15, 2017 at 11:39 pm

” …but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

Yep. She’s not fucking him because she wants to fuck him. She’s fucking him because that’s the only way he’s going to propose to her.

The line between this and prostitution is pretty damn fuzzy, IMO. ”

Fucking LOL on this.

It’s really funny, isnt?

Playdontpay
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@ tuff Pretty much agree, I’m the same I’m not monogamous but I don’t generally aim for ONS as I also prefer multiple encounters and plates, fwb’s. Some level of connection aside from the sex is important to me, I’ve never kicked a plate out if she wanted to stay the night unless she was being bitchy or bringing drama. You are on point that a woman will not accompany you into a scenario that offers a clear opportunity for escalation to sex unless she has decided she would fuck you, that’s why ‘Netflix and chill’ is almost a guarantee… Read more »

Fred Flange, in livid stereo
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Here is a question to which I do not have an answer. This follows on the main takeaway from this essay. It is based on unshakeable observation of current events. So I have no har-har jokes or Firesign Theater quotes to drop. Among high schoolers and now college students we see the death of one-on-one dating as we knew it. Some hooking up still happens at the Alpha level, yes, but most boys and girls do things in friend-groups and hope that some kind of hesitant pairing off my occur at some point via happy accident. Beta boys are taught… Read more »

Epubliusrex
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Like all things with regards to women, it’s best to flip it on them. They know, just like you, whether or not they want to have sex with you within five minutes or less. One reason why it’s best to spin plates is that you have options and available sex with other women. This allows you to flip the three date rule. You have your own timeline for sex established which has nothing to do with theirs. You do this to see if they are worth your taking the time to poke them. They’ll see you not as being fearful,… Read more »

anon
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“I think we want to believe so for a variety of reasons that appeal to our egos. That, and the fact that if we doubt a woman’s sincerity of her Epiphany we’re turned into dehumanizing monsters is why we want to buy into the ‘change’ a woman conveniently makes when she reaches her SMV’s expiration date.”

“Waiting” is often the stuff of most chick-lit erotic fan fiction for a reason.
It builds up the suspense and anticipation.
It’s not Penthouse forum serendipity stuff (or the Michael Bay equivalent in pop culture theatre).

Epubliusrex
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@Rollo- Your comment is the long way around of the modern feminist ideal that women can now “sow their wild oats” before settling down with a marriageable man in the same way men played around before settling down. Problem is, is that a man’s ability to couple is not seriously impacted by numbers whereas, statistically, a woman’s is. The truth is, is that in this day and age, the only women that are likely safe for marriage are those raised within what are more or less conservative religious cults where their parents have socialized them to the biblical ideal that… Read more »

Fred Flange, in livid stereo
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Thank you for the reminder sir. Any prior post which quotes ME has to be an ace post.

Maybe the “sexual zoning” is one answer for what things will come to look like: old-style assortive mating sort of becomes moribund.

Nevertheless, he persisted.*

So my more refined question might be: how does a woman in Epiphany phase try to qualify her BB man to wait until the third date to fuck if there’s never an opportunity for a first date?

*Alright, that’s one har-har joke, I can’t help myself. I’m here ’til Thursday, try the veal.

Culum Struan
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One of the key skills I picked after about the first year of online dating – it only comes from experience though – is spotting the difference between the girls who had what HABD calls “genuine desire” for me but didn’t agree to bang me (this almost always was because I messed up logistics/seeding the pull thus triggering ASD – hence things like handjob from a Tinder girl 90 min after meeting her outdoors in the cold but she wouldn’t come up to my apartment 200 yards away) and girls who just weren’t attracted enough to me do it and… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“How is this going to translate into social interaction post college and grad school?”

A form of neo-feudalism in which the aristocratic class are female and the serf class are male. Corporations will fill the role of the House.

fleezer
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“it’s because they wanted me to respect them. Yet, none of them managed to delay the sex with me beyond our first opportunity to go.” respect? too funny. is it possible to respect a toy? when a stupid plastic toy annoys me, I take it outside and beat it with a golf club. how many toys have we all had in our lives that we either threw away, broke on purpose or simply abandoned? if she claims to want you to respect her, she doesn’t want to be your property. she wants to be your boss. a man can’t respect… Read more »

Epubliusrex
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Epubliusrex
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The idea of men dropping out of the SMP is somewhat akin to what life was like for the average male 150 years ago. Most men did not marry and a substantial percentage of women did not either. If they hit the wall–25 back then, they were likely to be spinsters or marry a widowed man later in life. He went through three phases in life, generally speaking. The first was young adulthood. He had to establish himself in the world in order to essentially buy a wife. Her father was the gate keeper and he had to impress the… Read more »

TuffLuv
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Rollo in case you are saying that my gals were putting up resistance because of lack of arousal as opposed to trying to impress me or paint themselves in the best light, I’ll need to argue that with you here. Let me be clear. The ‘implications’ that they give off during our initial interactions, is all I am talking about. They play coy, and they drop hints about ‘not being like that’, in response to me vaguely sexualizing the conversation before I’ve developed any true rapport with them. Once I have escalated to kino, or we have moved to a… Read more »

Epubliusrex
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@ Rollo I don’t think you’re alone in not thinking of them as sluts. Having been raised around girls but having a much older brother and male cousins, I just saw girls/women as sexual creatures period. I just accepted things the way they were. My male role models spent the majority of their time–even in HS, getting laid while trying to keep what they thought of as a “nice girl” spinning so they could marry her post college. They did refer to easy women as “piogs” and laughed about them. The only ones I ever thought of as sluts were… Read more »

Fabrizio
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You know, I think I have been blesses with the right set of flaws to make me completely happy. I’m too egotistical (so I don’t think poorly of myself), I’m too lazy (so I always search for the easier path in life), I’m too cynical (so I never believe anyone), and I have a very low sex drive (so I don’t fall prey for the “fuck at any cost” pitfalls). I never dated, never felt the urge to go out and date, and I never activelly initiated any talks with women to try and impress them with the goal of… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . he just wants her to be HIS slut.” This is rooted in the Madonna/Whore dichotomy. I have come to understand it intellectually, but have never really understood it. “Many men chose to remain single, hung out at their men’s clubs and would simply stop off at the bordello on the way home. Where I live, the one time most prestigious men’s club in the state was built with a tunnel to a bordello across the street and up the block.” And then the Presbyters came along and ruined everything for everybody. “Contrary to popular belief, women… Read more »

Redcastle
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Redcastle
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Because a Nice Guy and a White Knight will get laid enough as to procure long term provisioning with a new 18 year leash

cheupez
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cheupez
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Thanks Rollo. I actually believe that there is such a thing as holding out to make a man think that the woman is special. But the truth is the same woman who is holding out on you will in the blink of an eye literally bend over for another man somewhere and take it like a pro. Just that right now, you are not that man for her, or maybe you will be that man someday, just not yet. Or maybe you can never be that kind of man for her. She will not do it for you. So you… Read more »

cheupez
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cheupez
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Rollo. I cant seem to get posts through. I have lost 2 already. I hope I am not bot flagged.

constrainedlocus
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“There is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. ” This remark struck me. First, I could be wrong about this, but it appears to me often that this “negotiation” also takes place by her externally as well. A 29-33 year old woman finally dismounts the carousel and has started dating a steady Eddie beta boyfriend. For this Epiphany Phase woman employing the infamous “90 day wait” tactic, its common for… Read more »

Novaseeker
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So my more refined question might be: how does a woman in Epiphany phase try to qualify her BB man to wait until the third date to fuck if there’s never an opportunity for a first date? @ Fred — Well, they date, though, they just don’t date people (for the most part) that they meet in de-sexed zones. So, dating apps, friends, parties, clubs — the sexed zones. Schools are actually mixed zones (as are workplaces) … alphas do get action there, as they do everywhere, but the rest of the guys are in a desexed zone where they… Read more »

fleezer
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“Kerr, 33, dropped her infamous guard in an interview with The Times in the UK and gave us a glimpse into the innermost workings of her apparent non-sex life with Spiegel, 26, when she admitted the couple don’t currently use any contraception because they’re not having sex until they’re married. “[Spiegel] is very traditional,” said Kerr. “We can’t…I mean we’re just…waiting.” billionaire waits for older born again virgin mom. “Jo, a 28-year-old single, retail manager from Melbourne, relates to their desire to wait. She has put the breaks on all sexual relationships until she’s found a man whose willing to… Read more »

ChocDoc
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ChocDoc
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“Rise of the born again Virgins”.

I havent read such a nonsense in a quiet long time….Hahaha

fleezer
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fleezer
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“There simply will never an honest accounting of her past decisions and behavior.”

delusion aided by copious amounts of box wine, benzos and anti depressants. and cats. and tv.

ChocDoc
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@ Fleezer

You really are my brother in spirit.

everybodyhatesscott
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I got a strong pushback from an over 30 who clearly wanted to sleep with me but also clearly wanted me as beta bucks. I actually did bang her on the 2nd date but on the 3rd date she tried to re-classify me back like we hadn’t already slept together (this was a few days ago). That was a new one for me. Not sure if it’s even salvageable at this point but she was fun and I wouldn’t mind a few more goes at it.

kfg
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kfg
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“I actually did bang her on the 2nd date but on the 3rd date she tried to re-classify me back . . .”

Next!

“Not sure if it’s even salvageable at this point . . .”

Counter-intuitively, if you do the above.

theasdgamer
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@Tuff

They play coy

Girls only do this when they are looking for betabux. I see girls do this from time to time. It’s a test as a way to screen for betas in their late 20s on up when they are looking for betas.

If a girl does this when she’s in her early 20s, she wants to marry early to avoid riding the cock carousel. Probably devout.

Sun Wukong
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So basically it comes down to the “want to fuck”, “will fuck”, and “won’t fuck’ that deti talked about. She finds herself realizing that she has to turn down “want to fuck” and take “will fuck”, but “want to fuck” is so much more appealing that she pushes her “will fuck” off. Maybe just hoping “want to fuck” will come along with the same qualifications AND a ring if she just holds on a biiiit longer. But he never does… and the poor girl has to accept her fate and settle for “will fuck”.

It does make sense.

theasdgamer
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Regarding longevity of women before docs used clean technique:

About half of women died giving birth to their first child. If they made it thru that, odds were good that they’d make it through more kids.

So, about half of women died very young and the rest lived to be old, toothless hags.

ChocDoc
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With women nowadays i have clear rules

1) If the squeeze is not worth the juice -> next!
Thats means, if we don’t have sex within 2 dates, i next her.

2) Her problems are HER problems, not mine.
So whatever reasons she has, whatever problems she has, whatever game she plays,
whatever born-again-virgin hamstering she has; it’s her issues.

The same way a woman wants a “made” man, i want a “ready for action” woman.

theasdgamer
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Girls who bang a lot of guys are going to have diseases. Most girls 20+ have had upwards of 15 guys, assuming 3 per year from age 15. Antibiotics help? Maybe, maybe not.

There’s a reason that HPV vaccine is mandatory for young people. Even if you’re an old fart, you should get it.

Anonymous Reader
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Nova There are almost no lesbian women True enough. Just watching long enough proves this. A few years perspective, ok. The lezzy girls in college? That’s just LUG. “Married” lesbians who after a few years want a child suddenly morph into a threesome with some man, at least for a while. Or the other way, where a married woman frivorces her husband and “marries” another woman only to move on from her to a man. Any time you engage these women in conversation in a relaxed, “Nah, I’m not judging, just want to know how you are doing?” way sooner… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Fred Flange Seems to me this lack of one-on-one dating and hookup skills will embed into older post-grad populations. How is this going to translate into social interaction post college and grad school? From what I see it leads to people desperate for a group to belong to, and a lot of cognitive dissonance. Plus a lot of frustrated people. Very frustrated, because the girls want men and the men want girls but they’ve both been trained to act more like siblings than anything else. Watching some 20-somethings attempting to flirt is really strange: start-stop jerkiness where she sends off… Read more »

Playdontpay
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Playdontpay
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I know about AF/BB.
I know there are no good girls.
I know there’s no quality women.
I know there’s no unicorns.
I know AWALT.
I know Hypergamy doesn’t care.
I know women know these things.

BUT They don’t know that I know that’s why they try to frame themselves as “good girls” to try and raise their SMV in my eyes because they know deep down that they are unworthy of my commitment.

TheLastCoyote
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Well, I think we can safely say this prosecutor’s moral compass was in her vagina.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/03/16/lead-detective-admits-affair-prosecutor-murder-case/99246068/

Karnak
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Karnak
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All these “born again virgins” episodes will inevitably end the same:

They’ll keep their Betas waiting. While at the same time loosing their “second virginity” to the Alphas who’l make them wet.
And they’ll tell the same stories, in order to convince themselves they’re not cheating and they’re still “second-time virgins”:

“there was no love involved, so I’m still a virgin”

or

“I only took it in the ass, so I’m still a virgin”

XD

TuffLuv
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TuffLuv
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Well said Play.. truth.

fleezer
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fleezer
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“they know deep down that they are unworthy of my commitment.” totally fucking agree. you say “I love you” and she thinks, “why?” you say “I do” and she thinks, “you’re pathetic” you say “yes, dear” and she thinks, “I despise your weakness” you say “please” and she thinks, “I have to get away from you” not that any man should give a shit what a woman thinks, but it is useful to have a basic understanding of how they operate. “You really are my brother in spirit.” I think we’re all brothers here. we all know the red pill… Read more »

rugby11
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rugby11
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Day 16
http://wp.me/p6OxfZ-d4

Hunter S Thompson
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Hunter S Thompson
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Off Topic:
@Rollo
Purchased a copy of your books and gave them to someone who needed them. Thanks. HST.

Water Cannon Boy
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“So my more refined question might be: how does a woman in Epiphany phase try to qualify her BB man to wait until the third date to fuck if there’s never an opportunity for a first date?:” The lack of one on one dating has been going on for a long time. Rollo had a post about women asking for a bigger and bigger supply of men from their social group. I thought it was titled “More Men” and I would link it, but I went way back and it didn’t show up. But women will depend more on having… Read more »

theasdgamer
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Dating is sometimes called “hanging out”…kind of an informal date and the zone can be sexual/asexual, depending on the guy’s SMV and the girl’s SMV. Usually a social circle thing. Either sex may initiate.

Group hangouts give women an opportunity to appraise men’s social skills in a social circle setting. (This sentence has been brought to you by the number 16 and the letter “S”.) Meetups serve this purpose as well.

Glider
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@ Olongapo March 15, 2017 at 5:27 pm “A perfect storm so-to-speak however……what I have learned with the 40-50 year old crowd, that desperation amongst these women is often more effective than Spanish Fly…..especially if you are is reasonable shape (no grandpa bods). It’s incredibly easy to obtain sex and sometimes material items (had one buy me a kayak one time) but……never, never, never lose frame. The shit tests never stop. The downside is that you have to fend off some women who just don’t take of their bodies.” So, so true, bro. Just yesterday i had a 50+ woman… Read more »

Epubliusrex
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Hanging out isn’t new. Women have been doing this for a long time–going with a group of friends to a club for dancing. The males are there to cock block unknown males. The only way in is to know someone in the crowd.

Conversely, it’s not a bad way to meet other women outside the group. You have to get your female friends to do the work for you sometimes, but in my experience, they’ll be more than happy to.

alphabucks
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alphabucks
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How does the sexual marketplace change when men wise up. When those disguised as a beta are actually alpha and decide to just play along for the free pussy waste the females time ? As a low smv man that is what I am encountering now is being their beta bux option I am able waste their time and spin multiple ltr plates who think i’m their long term strategy to get married.I don’t give a shit about them I just think about how they wouldn’t fuck me on the first night and gladly waste their precious wall years. Women… Read more »

Mineter
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Mineter
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Rollo’s post and the comments here are good info. As long as a Beta man can identify when when a former carousel rider “might” consider him as her meal ticket rather than her tingle tickler, he can plan accordingly, as long as he doesn’t lose sight of reality. He can get some milk before the cow dries up, and without having to buy said cow. All he might need to do is make her believe he is in the market for a cow, and has several leads to check out.

Playdontpay
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@ alphabucks “Playing along for the free pussy and wasting females time”. I met a 29 year old 2 years back (me 47 at that time) and plated her for just over a year before I started to feel guilty about wasting her time as she’s ultra low drama and very sweet. I sat her down told her I was not going to get married ever again and that I didn’t want kids. She said it was ok but then started getting lazy in the bedroom so I finished things only for her to come back 3 months later. Things… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
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@Playdontpay
She will of course hamster my reply as “you could be the right woman” and see it as a challenge to become that woman, meanwhile I sit back and reap the benefits of her ” best behaviour sales pitch stage”

Yeah I’m starting to recognize this in the crowd I’m dating (40+). Then they find some lame excuse to dump your ass when they realize the payoff ain’t coming.

Novaseeker
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It will be seen as the kind of place you can go to meet but still claim that you’re not there for that, you’re there for the painting. Yep. That’s been going on for a long time, too, really. Things like book groups, running groups, cycling groups, etc, where you meet up around activities. Although everyone who joins one of these things generally likes the activity in itself, many who join are open to meeting a mate (or a side piece) there, too. These are not uncommon ways that people meet others, although it is admittedly very hit and miss… Read more »

Everything Is Water
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The timing of this article fits Rollo’s post perfectly. Behold, I reveal unto you the phenomenon of the “born again virgin.” Notice how this phenomenon is limited to women ages 29-33 who have decided to wait for the “right guy” before having sex. For these women to convince themselves that they are, in some sense, virgins after they have ridden the cock carousel just because they say so is the ultimate in female hamstering.

http://www.whimn.com.au/love/intimacy/the-rise-of-bornagain-virgins/news-story/b2998c8e3f6f8451de73ca7940f8ea90

EhIntellect
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EhIntellect
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“But the lower SMV people who are not competitive in high-competition settings like bars and clubs use these kind of alternative means to find people, and that’s been going on for some time.” There’s yoga sessions occasionally hosted by a scenic, popular venue nearby. I stumbled into the post-party social after a jog. About 50 people, ratio was 5:1 women:men. Lots of professional women, just pre-post wall. The men were in yoga pants, flamboyant ones too, men’s chatter was yoga-centered but not sexual. I plopped on a mat in a clutch of 4 20 something women. “Ya wanna see my… Read more »

EhIntellect
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‘Socially, she’s got countless sources of ‘go grrrl’ moral reinforcement from both men and women.”

The reinforcement is analogous to female-female complements. Contrived when given and received. The pre-post wall women know the score…well the hindbrain does. No amount of reinforcement replaces the party years sexual success.

Single female sulking turned overeating and drinking around here creates a positive feedback loop. As their SMV declines, their weight climbs, and down goes the SMV.

EhIntellect
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“A woman holding out on a guy during this phase of her life really isn’t about any moral epiphany, it’s really her hindbrain coming to terms with having to make herself become sexual with a type of guy whom previously she would never have naturally flowed into having sex with.”

This resisitance is similar to cultural resistance to the pink pill idea. “Flibanserin is a novel, non-hormonal pill to treat hypoactive sexual desire disorder in premenopausal women,”

It’d incline them to fuck an undesirable guy. The FI will have none of that!

Sentient
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Sentient
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If ever wife and I part, i will build out a mixed use corner development of three commercial bays downstairs – yoga studio, coffe shop and champagne bar/tapas restaurant with aprtments upstairs, of which I will have a corner unit. Across from a uni with 25k enrolled.

Fred Flange, mostly deaf
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Fred Flange, mostly deaf
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Yeah isn’t it funny how the HuffPo Clucking Cartel completely misstates how flibanserin works, as if it was the mythical Spanish Fly you dosed a girl’s drink with and then she’d hump anything! And like it! Not reading the literature which states clearly that, like viagra or Cialis, the stuff works (assuming it does) only if you have the mental inclination to be DTF but aren’t sure the chemical triggers are properly flying. But they don’t see that part, ‘cos we’re the Most Smartest Bestest Coll-Grad Generation ever generated and we were chosen to lead, not to read! Besides learning… Read more »

Agent P
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Agent P
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@Sentient,
I’d be happy to design it for you, I am working on a few operations like that right now.

I admit I had not thought about them in terms of being honey pots for bored Alpha investors.

rugby11
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rugby11
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EhIntellect
“I don’t yoga, but admit it was a fish-barrel scene, the competition weak, women ready-to-go.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hecyXsNpa9k
What a day its going to be…

Razorwire
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Razorwire
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@Sentient I will structure all of the financing and take a modest, rear-facing unit in lieu of fees. If that’s of no value to you, I will start and operate the yoga shop. As long as it is “live/work” zoned so I can maintain my sacred chamber on premises. I happen to speak yoga. In fact, I currently pull a few shifts a month in a studio now. It takes four women all day to change a light bulb. Between the gossip and backstabbery, there is simply no time for actual work to get done. I figure I could run… Read more »

dr zipper
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@Razor – I’ve had exposure to the post-wall women’s self-improvement/spiritual stuff. My running theory is that this is them consciously trying to make sense of the world and how they can improve whatever results they are currently getting. Commendable, kind of like what a man would do. Unconsciously (hamster), it really is them trying to reconcile, justify and assauge all they fucked up shit they’ve done and still do and will do. At some level, they know something’s not quite right, but instead of questioning the FI and why there is still discord even when they’ve partaken in the FI… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@zipper

Unconsciously (hamster), it really is them trying to reconcile, justify and assauge all they fucked up shit they’ve done and still do

Neo: Why do my eyes hurt?

Hamster: Because there’s something wrong with reality.

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