The Epiphany Phase Revisited

One of the best things about the Red Pill being a praxeology is that nothing’s set in stone. Like any good science there’s always room for reinterpretation and updating ideas per new information, or sometimes it’s simply something or some observation that seemingly went overlooked that adjust an old interpretation. Reader Playdontpay brought something to light in an old post, Three Strikes:

I agree with the 3 Strike rule for younger chicks of 30 and under but once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.

It’s probably because at this age her clock is ticking and she doesn’t have time to “waste” on flings that would won’t lead to commitment, so she re-invents herself as a “quality woman” in the hope of convincing you that she is LTR/ marriage material.

It’s up to you to decide if you can push the envelope to 5-6 dates max but I would only do this if I was sure it was her ASD holding her back and not down to a low interest level.

If you wait to date 5-6 and the sex is sub par, don’t stick around waiting for it to improve as you’ve been sold a lemon and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze!

This seemingly innocuous comment made me think a lot about some of my older material and how newer readers might interpret it. There’s actually quite a bit to unpack in this short response, so with the benefit of over a decade of hindsight I thought I might riff on it.

“…once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.”

Any long time reader of this blog will immediately associate this phenomenon with the Epiphany Phase women enter when the reality of their lessened capacity to compete intrasexually with their younger sisters becomes unignorable. Generally this phase comes at or around the ages of 29-31, however, depending on circumstance this may come sooner for some women (those whose attractiveness is already understood to be suboptimal), and sometimes much later for others (women who bought into the lie that their attractiveness is subjective and indefinite). I’ve written many essays about this phase and dedicated two sections of Preventive Medicine to it. It’s very recognizable, and very understandable when you have a good grasp of how women prioritize the ‘needs’ of their sexual strategy as they mature.

The Epiphany Phase is really a woman’s subconscious knowledge of The Wall coming into her cognitive acknowledgement. However, what’s not so easy to grasp is why a woman who’s come to this phase would actually make it more difficult for a prospective long-term, parentally invested, hopefully idealized, mate to become intimate with her?

On several occasions I’ve proposed just the opposite; that Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game. Even for women in the luteal phase of ovulatory shift, (when by all means she ought to be seeking the provisioning, comforting and rapport of more Beta men’s attentions) women will be prompted to sexual immediacy and urgency when presented with the prospects of fucking – and hopefully locking down – what she sees as an Alpha man. It is entirely possible to bypass women’s natural, ovulation-induced, Hypergamy when you present yourself as the right Alpha incentive to her (I’ve done this myself). This is the prioritization women’s natural sexual strategy has, and in reality, a woman faking an orgasm for a perceived Alpha, or having proceptive sex with him in her luteal phase only confirms the urgency women’s natural Hypergamy has with regard to locking down an optimal man.

But why would a woman who, for all intents, knows her capacity to attract men is waning be so insistent on delaying her becoming intimate with him? This seems counterintuitive, particularly in light of the fact that most women in their younger, Party Years eagerly had sex with men for whom they made little or no ‘rules’ for in order to become sexual with them. It’s a common enough idea in the manosphere that women will ride the ‘cock carousel’ in their 20s until they realize a lessened capacity to attract guys and then seek to cash out of the sexual marketplace before or around 30. Usually this ends up with a girl settling for a Beta in waiting.

But why would the rules and prerequisites be something she insists on now but didn’t while she was in her sexual peak years?

Vaginas and Moral Compasses

There was a recent article on the HuffPo quoting Cate Blanchett saying “My moral compass is in my vagina“, and while this might be the red meat clickbait the HuffPo relies upon for revenue, it adequately sums up how Hypergamy, a woman’s sexual agency and a woman’s capacity to utilize it throughout her life directs women’s intrinsic and extrinsic priorities throughout their lives. I realize this wasn’t how Cate intended her comment to be taken; she wanted to express some inherent guiding principle for women in an era she believes women are still repressed in, but in doing so she illustrates the real compass women have with regard to moral interpretations of their ideas and behaviors. If something gratifies, optimizes or otherwise benefits a woman’s driving impulse of Hypergamy, it sets a rationale for moral interpretation by her. Or in other words, if it’s good for what optimizes Hypergamy, it’s good for women.

As men we want the easy answer to be the best answer. So it seems obvious to us that a woman making arbitrarily ‘new’ rules of intimacy for her prospectively long-term suitors would follow some epiphany where she comes to her senses, realizes the error of her ways and strives for being some new ‘quality woman’ to represent herself as. As such, her quality should symmetrically be matched by a man’s quality. And that quality should logically take some time to determine. This is, in fact, most women’s self and public rationale for making a ‘quality’ man wait for her sexually when in the past she had no such obstacles for the hawt guy she met on spring break in the Cancun foam cannon party.

We want to believe this because we’re taught to expect such reasonings from a girl who now, at 29, wants to get right with God or “start doing things the right way” with guys. Social conventions abound that condition us to expect that once women, “get it out of their systems” (by following the Sandbergian sexual strategy) she’ll realize the errors of her youthful indiscretion and magically transform into a “Quality Woman”. We want to believe it, and it’s in women’s best interests that we do believe it.

Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself. They love nothing better than the idea of the reformed porn star who’s finally “grown up” and come to her senses about the error of her youth’s indiscretions with the guys they grew up to hate as an archetype. Better still, they’ll feed that rationale/fantasy in the hope that her Epiphany will include her saving her best sex for him since now she’s come to understand that it’s been the ‘nice guys’ all along she ought to have been getting with if not for ‘society’ convincing her otherwise.

The reformed-slut-with-epiphany archetype is a trope Beta men want to forgive because it represents vindication for their self-image, Blue Pill conviction and perseverance (they never gave up on her). Women with the pasts that make them good candidates for eliciting this rationale know men well enough to see the utility it has in securing Blue Pill men’s resources and long term security.

Socially, she’s got countless sources of ‘go grrrl’ moral reinforcement from both men and women. In fact, as a Man, just my bringing this to light makes me guilty of being “judgmental” in popular female-defined culture. And that’s the insurance women will always have in their Epiphany Phase – whether it’s a reformed slut coming to terms with the Wall at 29, or the ex-wife who frivorced her dutiful (but unexciting) Beta to have her own epiphany and discover herself a la Eat, Prey, Love, the social net of feminine-primacy is there with easy rationalizations to catch any and every woman’s Hypergamous fall.

Holding Out

Yet still she hesitates in giving herself to that Beta provisioner.

We excuse this hesitation by claiming it’s because, now, she wants to be extra sure about him. The Alpha men she so effortlessly gave herself to were all, of course, wolves in sheep’s clothing (e.g. men are evil) and in her epiphany she must exercise caution. And if you think it’s because of anything else, well, you’re a misogynist, so shut up.

A woman holding out on a guy during this phase of her life really isn’t about any moral epiphany, it’s really her hindbrain coming to terms with having to make herself become sexual with a type of guy whom previously she would never have naturally flowed into having sex with. We like to think a now ‘quality woman’ is deserving of putting a man through a set of qualifying tests, that seems like appropriate prudence, but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

Later she’ll bemoan that she’d rather cry over an asshole than date a guy who bores her, but in the Epiphany she has to force this subconscious understanding down in order to better insure her Hypergamous security into the future.

This latent, limbic sexual uncertainty has nothing to do with vetting the ‘perfect guy’ for the ‘quality woman’ it’s about a woman, who likely for the first time in her life, is presented with the challenge of having to bypass her hindbrain Hypergamy in order to secure her long term security. Thus, we see this demographic of women make even more rules for a Beta to deserve her intimacy, while a more Alpha tingle-generating man she was more than willing to break rules to get to bed with.

It’s important that we focus on the idea that a man, any man, ought to be deserving of a woman’s sexual ‘gift’. We get this rationale from the affirmations of even the most well meaning of men. Even though the concept of Hypergamy is regularly proven through her Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy prior to her epiphany, the Beta mindset is always ready to do more and expect more from men who would get with his ‘quality woman’. A woman on the expiration of her SMV likes nothing more than to be told, and to encourage the idea in men, that “she deserves better” in spite of her past decisions.

Yet still she hesitates having sex with the ‘perfect’ guy who is ready to overlook all of it.

This is an internal conflict between what her psyche knows she needs to do to ensure her security, and what her hindbrain wants in an exciting Alpha lover. What “flips” in a woman’s head is her inability to resolve her sexuality with her self-consciousness in having to force it to be with a man who likely doesn’t merit it for her – but this meriting her sex, up to now, has always been a process she left to her hindbrain to decide. In a sense it is quality control, but not for the self-righteous rationales we’re supposed to believe it is.

There is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. At some point, what sexualized qualities satisfies a woman’s Id she no longer has the capacity to maintain so there comes an inner conversation of negotiation over what available man represents the best compromise depending on her need and her acknowledgement of it – and her true capacity to satisfy her long term security with or without him.

Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.

There’s a bit more to this reevaluation of the Epiphany Phase I may do soon in another post. However, I think I should add here that a lot of not-so-genuine confusion on the part of well-meaning guys about why a woman would so easily break her own rules to fuck an Alpha guy while require them to jump through hoops to get to a mitigated sexuality with her is primarily due to a woman’s hindbrain expectation about what sex should be like with either type of guy.

I’ve related in the past how women will gladly engage in a same night lay with a guy they see as a hot Alpha sex opportunity, but would never consider if she saw the guy as “relationship material”. This situation is a clichéd joke now – we laugh at it as “chick logic”, but the more Blue Pill men become aware of the Myth of the Good Guy the more these quandaries will give them pause to think about the women whose pasts they’re ready to excuse and the women they’re simply never going to consider “relationship material” themselves. They’ll think twice about the social order that’s encouraging them to “man up and marry those sluts”.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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SJF
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@Sentient Good reference on Southern Charm on Bravo. I did watch the three year catch up video on what happened there. My take is that the Frame control by the male and female is great. In fact, it is delightful. The purpose and passion of the males (frat boy floundering) is a little mis-guided, but I can overlook that for what your point is. Frame control is everything. As I’ve been working Frame this last five years it is a bit astonishing how powerful it is in living life. It is working great for me in MRP Game. Outstanding in… Read more »

rugby11
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Dalrock
http://wp.me/p5MelF-1NN

rugby11
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rugby11
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A question
http://wp.me/p6SXrP-jv0

EhIntellect
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“…Frame with Command Presence. It works. Beware the medium when the message is the thing to pay attention to.” Thank you for your take on hospital dynamics. I can’t say the average nurse here is as cute …but girls are girls and all. This I find interesting though. Since upping the alpha, younger, female physicians routinely frame battle or shit test, often after a benign personal comment. The RN’s straight up “look at me” comfort test, usually. Me yesterday: Generally women remain attractive if they remain thin, and that’s an intake issue. Men, OTOH, require a level of muscle tone… Read more »

cheupez
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Girl uses tinder to get the men she is NOT sexually attracted to, to shovel snow for her

Notice how she effortlessly and intuitively lumped men into two neat stacks; only later wishing there was overlap on the stacks. There isn’t. Sexy/attractive does not shovel snow, “wholesome” does…

“I swiped right exactly a dozen times. Instead of looking for men I was necessarily attracted to, I looked for men who seemed especially wholesome. (If only this Venn diagram had a greater overlap, perhaps I wouldn’t be in this predicament at all.)”

Women are naturals.

Hehehee…

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Dan
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The Epiphany phase is when a woman comes to terms with her aging biology,she cannot refute it,she’s getting old,less sexy,less sexual,less beautifull,fuck, less everything she’s ever thought she was. Her backbrain,her body is now telling her she is fading,she is becoming less beautifull,she feels less sexual desire as she did in her early twenties(late phase of oestrogen bloom even then),her subconscious knows her fecundity is over. Her overblown sense of self worth ,bolstered in all directions by a bloated super ego JewWorldOrder morals for the goy, to tell her,she is special,sexy,beautifull till the day she dies She compensates,does a bait… Read more »

theasdgamer
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“I swiped right exactly a dozen times. Instead of looking for men I was necessarily attracted to, I looked for men who seemed especially wholesome. (If only this Venn diagram had a greater overlap, perhaps I wouldn’t be in this predicament at all.)”

Wholesome = easily played or hustled

theasdgamer
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@Intellect

Why not get a group from the hospital to meet for a drink? I know surgeons’ hours vary wildly, but some of the surgeons and staff will be able to make it, surely? If it’s a routine thing…call it “team building”, heh…it will be easier for surgeons to make it more often.

cheupez
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@theasdgamer “Wholesome = easily played or hustled How true. Unfortunately for the woman, even if someone who was potentially attractive to her, she loses that spark immediately he takes her on the offer. I think I remember Rollo saying something akin to,”Women do not expect (or even prefer) that the cad be the dad too, or vice versa.” It is as if they are afraid to solicit for a snow shovel from the cad incase he fuks up and takes her on the offer and she has to pluck him from stack A to stack B, therefore losing a tingles… Read more »

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@ ASD Units, departments and social groups do meet, tend to run in their own circles. I crash them routinely. They’re work time rehash, hours long, gossip, the betas commiserate with the gals and I end up rolling my eyes, milking my beer, bored and it shows. I can’t bear not to sexualize, the girls like it, at least find it entertaining, but they’re not that pretty, generally, and I feel I’m giving too much value, taking none (h/t HABD, That concept is clarifying). Doctors, as lawyers generally associate with like-kind, unless they’re looking for action. I’m off the reservation.… Read more »

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On the face of it its absurd that a woman could have sex with a Bad Boy on the first date, but would make a supposedly superior “relationship material” man wait and wait. But could AFBB be an evolved sexual strategy? If she perceives a man as “Alpha” then she (subconsciously) judges him as having superior genetic material. She’s going to be powerfully driven to have sex with him to capture those genes. But for a Beta men she basically just wants his resources, not his genes. She’ll have the bare minimum of sex she can get away with in… Read more »

theasdgamer
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At these parties, grown men approach and fuck with my tie, complimenting it, touching it.

Probably grooming behavior…females and betas groom alphas

kfg
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Women assess clothing, particularly its quality, by touch. Sounds like these guys are women.

EhIntellect
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Ew.

Thanks.

fleezer
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“They think I’m actively blowing my life up. Ironically, my home, my marriage, work and integrity has never been better.”

^^fucking this

most people have no idea what success and happiness look like, so why the fuck would a man listen to anything they have to say regarding his life.

most of them lead lives of “quiet desperation” and taking advice from secretly desperate people is like drinking ocean water because you’re thirsty

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…. I can’t resist ” Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way. Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town Waiting for someone or something to show you the way. Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. So you run and… Read more »

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@EhIntellect Short discussion made long: A little expounding on your Side Note @10:04 today. Re: your erstwhile suicidal, now RP TRM acquaintance discussion. Your wife’s response to overhearing your conversation is normal operating procedure for women. I’ve been through this scenario and could shed some more light on it. Sure it is a shit test. Sure it is a comfort test. Doesn’t matter. It’s not about passing a shit test. It’s about using it to your advantage. “You’re no whore. You’re MY whore.” was an agree and amplify response to the test. Not the best way to accomplish your goals.… Read more »

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Is there an “Epiphany Phase” when a woman who leaves or gets dumped, acts out angrily and badly suddenly realizes “Shit…I’m surrounded by betas who adore me…why won’t HE talk to me?” I’ve noticed this and seen it referred here as “Alpha Widow” but it has started dawning on me that when I withdraw attention women come back and I see this as “mini epiphanies” or realizations of “uh oh…” Sharks’ blog had a great line about how women when they break up or shit test in many ways want to see you suffer because it makes leaving you easier…”He… Read more »

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@Walawala Your question: “Wtf?” It’s just Frame Battling. Enjoy the process. You will always have to frame battle. You kept frame with the older woman and you said the exact right thing. She fell into your Frame. No mystery there. No WTF? Normal female operating procedure. Frame is not power. Sounds like your game is good. Set your mental hurdles (how you view your frustrations) as no big deal. Are you happy, fulfilled, have agency, power to control your own circumstances and direction of your life (sovereignty?). Is there something that you would like to do that you are not… Read more »

Sentient
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Wala

it has started dawning on me that when I withdraw attention women come back

Cat String Theory…

comment image

She had that slight attitude of “I want to lead…why do men always lead???””

A good line I’ve been using is “you send out a signal. Act up. Push them, to find the limits. You search to find the guy who can take… you… in hand.”

walawala
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@Sjf. Do I feel I have enough traction and no regrets about my progress? Progress is subjective. But what’s more significant is Learning not to repeat behaviours that held me back. yes. I learn something new and realized something insightful. Should I have told those “friends” to back off? Maybe. But the reality was the plate was proactively grooming these thirsty losers who enjoyed the attention. They bought expensive dinners and showed up for her silly events. I never did. I feel angry at the dudes but I realized the best way to deal with that anger is use it… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@wala

“Why not try to be a better woman…instead of trying so hard to be a substandard man? You’ll never be good at it because….biology”.

I’m sooo proud of you! Sounds like some of my comments, but in your words.

SJF
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“It’s a work in progress but my self monitoring is much better so I think my game and game and red pill advice go (sic, prob. meant for) dudes here is solid.”

You solid as hell in your advice. Drawing you out is informative in whether you feel you are solid enough to embrace your own personal reality. Which arcs back to the community. Agency and all.

walawala
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@SJF. The biggest learning this year and the hardest thing was ghosting the plate who I think was playing me. She lashed out Ina weird creepy way…blocked and deleted…I noticed but never reacted. I didn’t react mainly because previously in similar situations I did react. It accomplished nothing for me. I felt worse. Now yah sure I felt bad….I felt betrayed by my “friends” who were rationalising their thirsty beta behaviour around her. But….to have expressed any sort of over reaction would have set me back. The revenge I experienced was passive. I went out to enjoy myself and didn’t… Read more »

Playdontpay
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I can’t help but feel some empathy for epiphany phase women. Their epiphany means they’ve failed. It shows that they made the comment FI mistake of believing that the men they could fuck and the ones they could marry are the same. It shows they overplayed their hand in the SMP and are only left with stark choices. The options they have going forward are unpalatable to them but I have to question how deep this “epiphany” really goes? I’m unsure that their egos will allow them to really accept that they overplayed their SMV and ended up chad-less, they… Read more »

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I wonder if they go through the 5 stages too? I would be surprised if they didn’t. Though the hamster should be a great tranquilizer too. I can imagine the same hamster that allows a girl to branch swing with abandon also will be called to task to provide enough matal/psychic cushioning for the fall. Most women do not even know the word “wall” as the redpillers do. So I think for most it is probably a vague nagging discomfort/pain about the state of affairs the reason for which she may not (or may not want to) assign a precise… Read more »

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You’re probably right. But even if they reach the acceptance stage I don’t believe they will own the culpability. Unlike a former beta who can see that his SMP failure was down to his betaness , I don’t believe that any Hb6 plus woman will ever come to the realisation that she just wasn’t hot/feminine/ charming enough to lock down the men she wanted. The best she can do is accept that her options have reduced and deal with her new reality with the help of her hamster, but a true “I wasn’t good enough before” epiphany like a beta… Read more »

theasdgamer
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There’s a 2nd epiphany…

women who get divorced then remarry after a few years of riding the carousel and get a man who is in the “won’t bang” category and they have to bang him occasionally

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I’m unsure that their egos will allow them to really accept that they overplayed their SMV and ended up chad-less, they probably hamster their lack of success down to bad luck and/or men not playing fair. There is some truth to that, I think, in terms of most women seeing the issue as being that the alphas in their lives were too selfish or commitment phobic or caddish or what have you, and they just got unlucky compared to Sally over there who married the Alpha Bux. Most are keenly aware of their shrinking SMV, and resent that to one… Read more »

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At least as men we have built in protection from marriage/ltr to women in the “would not bang” category as we have to perform in bed, we don’t have the option of slapping on a bit of lube and just taking one for the team. This is why men aren’t generally gold diggers as we can’t perform for a woman who repulses us no matter how much wealth or status she has. I’m on TRT and use cialis to enhance my sexual performance and I can confirm that it does not induce desire or increased ability to fuck a woman… Read more »

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“You should know this stuff, but you shouldn’t know this stuff, if it were up to the Sisterhood. You guys are taking away OUR POWER and I’m going to shit test you about that with some INDIGNATION.” @SJF — Yes, it’s because it violates the “just get it” principle. It’s fine if a man “just gets it”. It’s not fine if a man has to learn it in order to get it, because in the latter case there is a concern that he doesn’t actually really “get it”, because he isn’t a man who “just gets it”. More fundamentally, they… Read more »

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The family alpha
http://wp.me/p6OxfZ-df

anon
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It would be interesting to see a poll of how many sphere posters like video instruction, and how many do not. I used to think
I was alone in not liking them, but a couple of years back Badpainter mentioned he never watched them. And several posters over at Scott Adam’s site mentioned it too and said they hoped he wasn’t going to go toward videos instead of the written word.

DisgruntledEarthling
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@SJF Your wife’s response to overhearing your conversation is normal operating procedure for women. I’ve been through this scenario and could shed some more light on it. Classy and profound comment (all of it!). For a minute there while reading this I thought it was Rollo talking. I think this comment should be expanded on in an article in it’s own right- we all need to be reminded that dogspeak needs to be done away from cats. Recently, my supposedly LTR found my copy of Mystery Method (it was close by my copy of The Surrendered Wife I was hoping… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@anon

I much prefer the written word because:

1) input is much, much faster,

2) it’s easy to cut & past text for quoting, and

3) it’s easy to search

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“I much prefer the written word because: 1) input is much, much faster, 2) it’s easy to cut & past text for quoting, and 3) it’s easy to search” Thanks, Gamer. I think the same. The first is particularly key. The videos are competing with things like Ted Talks (and videos of funny animals and real comedians). I think (some of) the ones that demonstrate might be helpful (example some of the pickup videos), but just sitting and talking to the camera…that’s asking the viewer to commit a certain amount of time (often a great deal of time…and everyone’s time… Read more »

kfg
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You don’t have to rewind text 20 times to catch a point. It stays right there until you’re ready to move on. And who actually watches talking video anyway? It’s really just audio. I listen to it while I’m doing something else, like polishing bicycle spokes or something, maybe with the monitor turned off so it doesn’t distract me.

Even when I had a YouTube channel I only posted text. I have no movie maker/star itch to be scratched. I’d rather be Jonathan Swift than Steven Spielberg.

theasdgamer
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@anon

Where nonverbal communication is key, videos surpass text…e.g., comedy and pickup vids

Bachelorocles
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I’m not trying to be evocative or insulting or trollish. I’m just going to use plan words to describe it as it is. When a female enters the epiphany phase she goes into prostitution mode or as the late Reverend Lawrence Shannon called it, the predatory mode. As we know, women are exceptionally and naturally manipulative. She is exponentially more intelligent in this regard than nearly all men. She holds out sex not merely because she lacks lust for him. She is negotiating a future arrangement in which she will have the choice of not working, of fulfilling her deepest… Read more »

Novaseeker
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It would be interesting to see a poll of how many sphere posters like video instruction, and how many do not. What I’ve noticed is that it depends primarily on how each of us prefers to consume information. For people who like to multitask, they prefer videos or even podcasts, because it’s in the background and they are doing something else. Reading is much faster than listening to people talk (it’s really remarkably faster, especially if you read quickly), but it forecloses multitasking. So it really comes down to how people prefer to consume information. I tend strongly to prefer… Read more »

cheupez
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The hamster is strong in them. There was this girl I really “loved” back in my college days. I never got with her. Not that I even tried. She was quite a looker and had it really going for her with some topgun mofos around town. She knew how I felt. She got married to one of the mofos but I gather he ditched her soon after. The other day I ran in to her and could hardly recognize her. It took a moment for me to remember/realise who I was looking at. Her face, skin, her lips…she looked really… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
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@Bachelorocles

I like the way you think…
But she won’t necessarily withhold sex at the beginning. She just may shower him with all he can eat and thus ensnare him in her trap – quantity, BJs, anal, kink…
Then come the withdrawal once the wedding ring is obtained

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@DisgruntledEarthling I agree she could try to addict her target immediately. But I was trying to explore Rollo’s question as why they do hold out during their epiphany or prostitution phase. I don’t have the answer. Just trying to throw a log on the fire. I suspect the sex she gives her beta target in this phase is given with the expectation of future returns. It’s an investment in her and her offspring’s future. When a woman fucks an alpha she does not walk away feeling she is owned for it. Not so with a beta. I think her hold… Read more »

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” . . . why they do hold out during their epiphany or prostitution phase.”

A) They want to.
B) It works.

theasdgamer
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@kfg

C) Because they can

D) Because they think they can until they lower their sights

E) Because they tell themselves that they’ve changed and become serious

EhIntellect
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“I suspect the sex she gives her beta target in this phase is given with the expectation of future returns. ” Not a direct correlation, IMO. It takes much less sex to ensnare many a-Beta’s provisioning. Well, slot machine regularity produces peak ROI. I assume as much as Betas are quasi-celibate prior and would be partially satisfied with the female company, as a LJBF, serving the role of partial girlfriend (special snowflake) until he financially stumbles, is too pathetic to live with and she can leave with ample cash and prizes. There’s a negative correlation phase too. The run up… Read more »

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Novaseeker What I’ve noticed is that it depends primarily on how each of us prefers to consume information. For people who like to multitask, they prefer videos or even podcasts, because it’s in the background and they are doing something else. Reading is much faster than listening to people talk (it’s really remarkably faster, especially if you read quickly), but it forecloses multitasking. Nobody really multitasks, or at least nobody multitasks at that level. What actually appears to happen is th brain does a switch of context from A to B then back to A again very quickly. The focus… Read more »

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cheupez But the way she was talking to me I could tell she still adressing me from her former sense of self. She was talking like the college girl I knew from a decade back! It may have been just for you, because “college”. Although if she keeps that up, she’ll become more like Norma Desmond. Now, it’s not that rare for people to get stuck in a mental rut at some point. How many beta nerd men still talk and act as if they are undergrads in a dorm? More than a few. Part of the Red Pill requires… Read more »

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EhIntellect
They’ve been told to establish their careers and provisioning before marrying.

In other words, to become their own betas. Because “men and women are exactly the same”, so provisioning game will surely work when run by a woman on a man. This is the standard track that is taught to girls in high school, reinforced in college or trade school or on the job.

I used to think it was the feminist side of the FI pushing, but now I’m leaning more towards open hypergamy: party with the Alphas, catch some of their sperm then marry a Beta for provisioning. AF-BC.

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E) Because they tell themselves that they’ve changed and become serious

This fits The hamster intervenes

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In other words, to become their own betas. Because “men and women are exactly the same”, so provisioning game will surely work when run by a woman on a man. This is the standard track that is taught to girls in high school, reinforced in college or trade school or on the job.

I’m seeing in a 19yo I’m currently seeing. I’ve subtly introduced the thought that the traditional female role is also acceptable and could see that thought was pretty foreign to her thinking.

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@KFG B. It works. I believe it is a manipulative strategy to secure provisioning in service of her reproductive urges. I also believe much of female manipulation operates in the background and women are unaware of most of it. It operates in the background in service of her reproductive urges and provisioning needs. I think this is why you cannot get a truthful answer when you ask a woman why she wants marriage. She will give wholesome rationalizations believing them to be honest reasons. Her manipulative firmware, however, operating in the service of her biological urges wants marriage for security,… Read more »

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“Part of the Red Pill requires a man to look at himself as he is, otherwise he can’t know what needs to improve. Women don’t seem to really do that very much.” Also I think a man has much room for improvement. He need not hamster. A girl can only try so much after her face starts falling apart (hence the need for good old Mr. Hamster). Even the men that she previously deemed beneath her want to dodge her! Coz though I was grateful for the coffee, I felt relieved when she said she had someone to meet afterwards.… Read more »

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” I also believe much of female manipulation operates in the background and women are unaware of most of it. It operates in the background in service of her reproductive urges and provisioning needs.”

The female sexual strategy is covert. So covert that it operates double blind. If the player becomes too aware of her strategy, the strategy breaks down.

The babies must flow.

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“creating the illusion she needs him least” It’s no illusion, she doesn’t need the Beta for sex or provisioning. I see it with female PA’s, earning well single, marries husband, who earns well. A designer marriage. It’s a marriage of convienence, not provisioning either way. Yeah, she wins provisioning, I guess…but doesn’t really need it at just over 6 figures. He autolimits his sexual options, though. Therefore, why not hold out? Children aren’t even in the equation for her. Women are told to reject the patriarchy by default as AR wrote “This is the standard track that is taught to… Read more »

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“…men instinctively prefer chaste women.”

Perhaps, perhaps not. Betas excuse a lot. His dynamic is conventionally precooked to her benefit. Wife up that slut!

From the OP:

“Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him.”

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More from the OP: “Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself. They love nothing better than the idea of the reformed porn star who’s finally “grown up” and come to her senses about the error of her youth’s indiscretions with the guys they grew up to hate as an archetype. Better still, they’ll feed that rationale/fantasy in the hope that her Epiphany will include her saving her best sex for him since now she’s come to understand that it’s been the ‘nice guys’ all along she ought… Read more »

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“She just may shower him with all he can eat and thus ensnare him in her trap – quantity, BJs, anal, kink… Then come the withdrawal once the wedding ring is obtained” Women must have a tell if they’re running trap game. I would love to hear from guys who got cut off after the wedding night who can look back during the trap phase and suss out her tell(s). a post revealing those tells would be super valuable for those about to say “I do” as they could still walk away a few possible tells she’s not going to… Read more »

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Fleezer

That’s just what Desire Sex looks like… You can still fuck this up via betaization.

fleezer
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“That’s just what Desire Sex looks like…” so women can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it? women are generally terrible actors as they are so solipsistic it prevents them from even understanding the idea of stepping into another person’s shoes, let alone doing it convincingly. maybe if the hamster is running the show and she’s acting without knowing she’s acting…. that means a woman has no true feelings. just feelz that dictate her behavior based on what she wants and needs at that moment. so is “desire sex” really indicative of desire like men process desire,… Read more »

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@KFG lol I estimate 60% of everything a woman says is not what she really means. Conversations she has are very often directed at those within earshot. When your woman has a telephone conversation in front of you, much of what she says is directed at you. They are wily social creatures. @EhIntellect I would say it depends on her economic status. We know hypergamy impels women to marry up and marrying up includes a rise in income and social status. Don’t forget, high earning men and high social status men like CEOs, doctors, or trust fund babies can be… Read more »

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“so women can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it?”

A woman can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it even when he is actually paying her by the hour.

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To oppose is to support
http://wp.me/p3aTD-alr

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“A woman can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it even when he is actually paying her by the hour.”

Q: What do conmen do for fun on their day off?
A: Con conmen.

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It’s no illusion, she doesn’t need the Beta for sex or provisioning. I see it with female PA’s, earning well single, marries husband, who earns well. A designer marriage. It’s a marriage of convienence, not provisioning either way. Yeah, she wins provisioning, I guess…but doesn’t really need it at just over 6 figures. He autolimits his sexual options, though. Therefore, why not hold out? Children aren’t even in the equation for her. For him? Well, he may be getting more sex, as a practical matter, even with the slow-drip sex of a marriage like that one than he would being… Read more »

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@Intellect

Shudder…I’m selection biased though from this BP world I work in.

Do you think that it’s different anywhere else?

theasdgamer
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@anon

A woman can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it even when he is actually paying her by the hour.

More like he’s paying her to leave.

theasdgamer
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@fleezer maybe if the hamster is running the show and she’s acting without knowing she’s acting…. that means a woman has no true feelings. just feelz that dictate her behavior based on what she wants and needs at that moment. so is “desire sex” really indicative of desire like men process desire, or are we projecting onto them our desire when for her it’s really just “this is how I move when the hamster is happy” is a person without feelings really a person? if her programming really is that fucking cold and amoral, then red pill and game are… Read more »

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@ Bachelorocles Some great and thought provoking posts from yourself. I would like to respectfully disagree with your assertion, most of female manipulation is in the background and she’s unaware of it. I would posit a woman has to be aware of her manipulation or she couldn’t act on it, when it bears fruit. Imagine a woman was stringing a man along with the purpose of rejecting him when he eventually asks her out. She has to be aware of what she’s doing so, or otherwise she might say “yes” when the time comes. She has to be conscious of… Read more »

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[…] in last week’s thread. I’ve edited it for relevant content, but you can read the whole thing here. This touched on an essay topic I’ve been considering since my conversation with Ed Latimore […]

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All women have 2 sides. All of them, even my mom. It’s a feature, not a bug. Side #1 is a loving, caring side. It’s often heavily maternal in nature, and when it’s focused on a man, it is highly desirous. Sex is just one component of the desire under these circumstances. The woman will have a strong desire to please in multiple ways, and she will go about the task of pleasing with a sense of happiness and purpose. The man will not need to instruct her in how to do this, yet the woman will be open to… Read more »

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lol…. I post a couple of times a week only, and Rollo puts up a new OP as soon as I try to actually say something. Lmao…. Well, off to the new OP.

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“So, a woman’s hindbrain is cold and amoral, but her cortex is where she is most like a man. So, lots of contradictions. Got it?” I got nuthin. “I have these memories of my life…. none of them happened.” I know this means the matrix cannot tell me who I am, but shit… I love plowing girls. laughing with them. playing. having fun. it’s all bullshit. no matter what I do I’m just a dancing monkey for their long term strategy. even when things seemed so spontaneous, same day lays, crazy fucking out of nowhere, no strings sex… it was… Read more »

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@ fleezer You will be just fine brother. Life is like the machine you get hooked up to if you wind up in ICU at the hospital. The one that monitors your heartbeat and pulse and shit. As long as that line is going Up and then Down, you’re good. You’re alive. Up….and…Down. When that fucker flatlines, no more ups and downs, …well, cancel Christmas. The past is the past, except for the good feels we can remember. The feels are real, the details are less important. I can recall a bunch of shit that I really, really shouldn’t have… Read more »

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@ollieoxenfree1 I think female manipulation is difficult, really difficult to grasp and I struggle to understand it and place it within the framework of female psychology. The subject to my knowledge has never really been studied in depth. Imagine trying to publish a book on female manipulation? Right now, I believe it operates in the background most of the time like breathing or in the same way we all respond without thinking to the nonverbal gestures of others. I think most of the time women manipulate without trying. They do it effortlessly. We are all capable of consciously manipulating, but… Read more »

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“if her argument is irrational or illogical she is trying to manipulate you.”

Bruce Jenner is a woman.
Racially segregated safespaces are anti-racist.
And war is peace, Brother.

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“Two sentences into an argument, women go rogue, abandon reason and logic and effortlessly tell a thousand little lies and half truths. When I was a young man I would try to argue with them using reason, fairness, and logic and I would find myself in these exhausting, tortuous arguments. Then one day I read a comment in the manosphere which said, “if her argument is irrational or illogical she is trying to manipulate you.” An an ah ha moment. I finally realized when a woman goes rogue in an argument, she is not trying to make sense, understand you,… Read more »

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Blaximus
All women have 2 sides. All of them, even my mom. It’s a feature, not a bug.

Can confirm. Used to be women were taught men have at least 2 sides also.

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@ fleezer

Profound thoughts. I feel the same way although I never had the competence in pickup. I keep feeling, Is this where I want to go? Who I want to be?. It is truly sad

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Fleezer so women can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it? A guy who thinks like a dog, yes. This is the guy who thinks it is all about him, which is just a form of validation seeking. A guy that is his own MPoO will enjoy the sex, but not delude himself into thinking he is “the one” bringing this about. that means a woman has no true feelings. just feelz that dictate her behavior based on what she wants and needs at that moment. Feelz are realz… they are her only reality, therefore she is… Read more »

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@Bachelorocles Are you assuming morality on the part of women’s conscious manipulation? If a woman were in two minds she could rationalise, away, her culpability as you theorised. My problem is, why does she have to have two minds? If hypergamy is amoral why can’t the manipulation needed to serve it, be also? Any sense of shame or guilt wouldn’t arise and therefore require a process to hide her duplicity from herself. It’s a bit like man feeling uneasy about using a computer because he’s managed to manipulate electrons to create binary code and use this for his own purpose.… Read more »

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@Yep “The method is to get you as a logical man to come down to her level as an emotional women and then say” I also think they do it to exhaust us and beat the fuck out of us psychologically. In their short game, I see them doing it to to test us and get their way. But in their long game I think it is to exhaust us. A relationship with a woman can wear a man down to a drooling nub. I speak from experience. @ollieoxenfree1 I don’t think a woman must have two minds. I came… Read more »

cheryll
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cool

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[…] The Epiphany Phase Revisited […]

O.B.I.T.
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Deti’s taxonomy is what I see as most central here: She wants to fuck you, great, She doesn’t want to fuck you, OK. But if she’s merely “willing” to fuck you, maybe you don’t want to be that guy. Please take a moment to locate the nearest exit. Don’t be anywhere near the O.K. Corral at 5 o’clock.

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Social conventions abound that condition us to expect that once women, “get it out of their systems” (by following the Sandbergian sexual strategy) she’ll realize the errors of her youthful indiscretion and magically transform into a “Quality Woman”. We want to believe it, and it’s in women’s best interests that we do believe it.

Women themselves feel better by believing it — therefore, like all what gives them comfortable feelings and cushions them from self-knowledge, they believe it!

Fool yourself to better fool others, as Robert Trivers put it.

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[…] The Epiphany Phase Revisited […]

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