The Epiphany Phase Revisited

One of the best things about the Red Pill being a praxeology is that nothing’s set in stone. Like any good science there’s always room for reinterpretation and updating ideas per new information, or sometimes it’s simply something or some observation that seemingly went overlooked that adjust an old interpretation. Reader Playdontpay brought something to light in an old post, Three Strikes:

I agree with the 3 Strike rule for younger chicks of 30 and under but once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.

It’s probably because at this age her clock is ticking and she doesn’t have time to “waste” on flings that would won’t lead to commitment, so she re-invents herself as a “quality woman” in the hope of convincing you that she is LTR/ marriage material.

It’s up to you to decide if you can push the envelope to 5-6 dates max but I would only do this if I was sure it was her ASD holding her back and not down to a low interest level.

If you wait to date 5-6 and the sex is sub par, don’t stick around waiting for it to improve as you’ve been sold a lemon and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze!

This seemingly innocuous comment made me think a lot about some of my older material and how newer readers might interpret it. There’s actually quite a bit to unpack in this short response, so with the benefit of over a decade of hindsight I thought I might riff on it.

“…once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.”

Any long time reader of this blog will immediately associate this phenomenon with the Epiphany Phase women enter when the reality of their lessened capacity to compete intrasexually with their younger sisters becomes unignorable. Generally this phase comes at or around the ages of 29-31, however, depending on circumstance this may come sooner for some women (those whose attractiveness is already understood to be suboptimal), and sometimes much later for others (women who bought into the lie that their attractiveness is subjective and indefinite). I’ve written many essays about this phase and dedicated two sections of Preventive Medicine to it. It’s very recognizable, and very understandable when you have a good grasp of how women prioritize the ‘needs’ of their sexual strategy as they mature.

The Epiphany Phase is really a woman’s subconscious knowledge of The Wall coming into her cognitive acknowledgement. However, what’s not so easy to grasp is why a woman who’s come to this phase would actually make it more difficult for a prospective long-term, parentally invested, hopefully idealized, mate to become intimate with her?

On several occasions I’ve proposed just the opposite; that Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game. Even for women in the luteal phase of ovulatory shift, (when by all means she ought to be seeking the provisioning, comforting and rapport of more Beta men’s attentions) women will be prompted to sexual immediacy and urgency when presented with the prospects of fucking – and hopefully locking down – what she sees as an Alpha man. It is entirely possible to bypass women’s natural, ovulation-induced, Hypergamy when you present yourself as the right Alpha incentive to her (I’ve done this myself). This is the prioritization women’s natural sexual strategy has, and in reality, a woman faking an orgasm for a perceived Alpha, or having proceptive sex with him in her luteal phase only confirms the urgency women’s natural Hypergamy has with regard to locking down an optimal man.

But why would a woman who, for all intents, knows her capacity to attract men is waning be so insistent on delaying her becoming intimate with him? This seems counterintuitive, particularly in light of the fact that most women in their younger, Party Years eagerly had sex with men for whom they made little or no ‘rules’ for in order to become sexual with them. It’s a common enough idea in the manosphere that women will ride the ‘cock carousel’ in their 20s until they realize a lessened capacity to attract guys and then seek to cash out of the sexual marketplace before or around 30. Usually this ends up with a girl settling for a Beta in waiting.

But why would the rules and prerequisites be something she insists on now but didn’t while she was in her sexual peak years?

Vaginas and Moral Compasses

There was a recent article on the HuffPo quoting Cate Blanchett saying “My moral compass is in my vagina“, and while this might be the red meat clickbait the HuffPo relies upon for revenue, it adequately sums up how Hypergamy, a woman’s sexual agency and a woman’s capacity to utilize it throughout her life directs women’s intrinsic and extrinsic priorities throughout their lives. I realize this wasn’t how Cate intended her comment to be taken; she wanted to express some inherent guiding principle for women in an era she believes women are still repressed in, but in doing so she illustrates the real compass women have with regard to moral interpretations of their ideas and behaviors. If something gratifies, optimizes or otherwise benefits a woman’s driving impulse of Hypergamy, it sets a rationale for moral interpretation by her. Or in other words, if it’s good for what optimizes Hypergamy, it’s good for women.

As men we want the easy answer to be the best answer. So it seems obvious to us that a woman making arbitrarily ‘new’ rules of intimacy for her prospectively long-term suitors would follow some epiphany where she comes to her senses, realizes the error of her ways and strives for being some new ‘quality woman’ to represent herself as. As such, her quality should symmetrically be matched by a man’s quality. And that quality should logically take some time to determine. This is, in fact, most women’s self and public rationale for making a ‘quality’ man wait for her sexually when in the past she had no such obstacles for the hawt guy she met on spring break in the Cancun foam cannon party.

We want to believe this because we’re taught to expect such reasonings from a girl who now, at 29, wants to get right with God or “start doing things the right way” with guys. Social conventions abound that condition us to expect that once women, “get it out of their systems” (by following the Sandbergian sexual strategy) she’ll realize the errors of her youthful indiscretion and magically transform into a “Quality Woman”. We want to believe it, and it’s in women’s best interests that we do believe it.

Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself. They love nothing better than the idea of the reformed porn star who’s finally “grown up” and come to her senses about the error of her youth’s indiscretions with the guys they grew up to hate as an archetype. Better still, they’ll feed that rationale/fantasy in the hope that her Epiphany will include her saving her best sex for him since now she’s come to understand that it’s been the ‘nice guys’ all along she ought to have been getting with if not for ‘society’ convincing her otherwise.

The reformed-slut-with-epiphany archetype is a trope Beta men want to forgive because it represents vindication for their self-image, Blue Pill conviction and perseverance (they never gave up on her). Women with the pasts that make them good candidates for eliciting this rationale know men well enough to see the utility it has in securing Blue Pill men’s resources and long term security.

Socially, she’s got countless sources of ‘go grrrl’ moral reinforcement from both men and women. In fact, as a Man, just my bringing this to light makes me guilty of being “judgmental” in popular female-defined culture. And that’s the insurance women will always have in their Epiphany Phase – whether it’s a reformed slut coming to terms with the Wall at 29, or the ex-wife who frivorced her dutiful (but unexciting) Beta to have her own epiphany and discover herself a la Eat, Prey, Love, the social net of feminine-primacy is there with easy rationalizations to catch any and every woman’s Hypergamous fall.

Holding Out

Yet still she hesitates in giving herself to that Beta provisioner.

We excuse this hesitation by claiming it’s because, now, she wants to be extra sure about him. The Alpha men she so effortlessly gave herself to were all, of course, wolves in sheep’s clothing (e.g. men are evil) and in her epiphany she must exercise caution. And if you think it’s because of anything else, well, you’re a misogynist, so shut up.

A woman holding out on a guy during this phase of her life really isn’t about any moral epiphany, it’s really her hindbrain coming to terms with having to make herself become sexual with a type of guy whom previously she would never have naturally flowed into having sex with. We like to think a now ‘quality woman’ is deserving of putting a man through a set of qualifying tests, that seems like appropriate prudence, but in fact her reservation about fucking him comes from a deep seated, subconscious understanding that, while the guy might make for an excellent parental investment, he’s not going to be someone she feels a sexual urgency to fuck.

Later she’ll bemoan that she’d rather cry over an asshole than date a guy who bores her, but in the Epiphany she has to force this subconscious understanding down in order to better insure her Hypergamous security into the future.

This latent, limbic sexual uncertainty has nothing to do with vetting the ‘perfect guy’ for the ‘quality woman’ it’s about a woman, who likely for the first time in her life, is presented with the challenge of having to bypass her hindbrain Hypergamy in order to secure her long term security. Thus, we see this demographic of women make even more rules for a Beta to deserve her intimacy, while a more Alpha tingle-generating man she was more than willing to break rules to get to bed with.

It’s important that we focus on the idea that a man, any man, ought to be deserving of a woman’s sexual ‘gift’. We get this rationale from the affirmations of even the most well meaning of men. Even though the concept of Hypergamy is regularly proven through her Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy prior to her epiphany, the Beta mindset is always ready to do more and expect more from men who would get with his ‘quality woman’. A woman on the expiration of her SMV likes nothing more than to be told, and to encourage the idea in men, that “she deserves better” in spite of her past decisions.

Yet still she hesitates having sex with the ‘perfect’ guy who is ready to overlook all of it.

This is an internal conflict between what her psyche knows she needs to do to ensure her security, and what her hindbrain wants in an exciting Alpha lover. What “flips” in a woman’s head is her inability to resolve her sexuality with her self-consciousness in having to force it to be with a man who likely doesn’t merit it for her – but this meriting her sex, up to now, has always been a process she left to her hindbrain to decide. In a sense it is quality control, but not for the self-righteous rationales we’re supposed to believe it is.

There is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. At some point, what sexualized qualities satisfies a woman’s Id she no longer has the capacity to maintain so there comes an inner conversation of negotiation over what available man represents the best compromise depending on her need and her acknowledgement of it – and her true capacity to satisfy her long term security with or without him.

Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.

There’s a bit more to this reevaluation of the Epiphany Phase I may do soon in another post. However, I think I should add here that a lot of not-so-genuine confusion on the part of well-meaning guys about why a woman would so easily break her own rules to fuck an Alpha guy while require them to jump through hoops to get to a mitigated sexuality with her is primarily due to a woman’s hindbrain expectation about what sex should be like with either type of guy.

I’ve related in the past how women will gladly engage in a same night lay with a guy they see as a hot Alpha sex opportunity, but would never consider if she saw the guy as “relationship material”. This situation is a clichéd joke now – we laugh at it as “chick logic”, but the more Blue Pill men become aware of the Myth of the Good Guy the more these quandaries will give them pause to think about the women whose pasts they’re ready to excuse and the women they’re simply never going to consider “relationship material” themselves. They’ll think twice about the social order that’s encouraging them to “man up and marry those sluts”.

297 comments

  1. @EhIntellect

    The guys are “responsible” to a fault and the women feel entitled, or worse, don’t need an excuse to behave such. The FI rolls on.

    This is an aspect of the Epiphany Phase that would seem to correspond to “revisited” in a way. I’ve recently seen two similar examples of this from people I am related to. One man in his 30’s, the other in his 40’s, each married to women of nearly similar age and each man a loyal, hard working Beta provider; fully dedicated to wife and kids. In both cases the wife is a work from home photographer, and is a good looking woman that has kept herself in shape.

    Both of these women arranged to leave the family and travel with girlfriends for a break. They traveled via air, so far from home. Beta men kept the kids, in both cases enlisting their own parents to travel hundreds of miles to assist so that they wouldn’t need to take too much time off work. In person both of these women present as solid citizens and good church going moms. Looking at the events through Red Pill lenses I am tempted to think they fit your description of “the women are temporarily divorced”. I hope I’m wrong. Time will probably tell.

  2. @Sentient

    Good reference on Southern Charm on Bravo. I did watch the three year catch up video on what happened there.

    My take is that the Frame control by the male and female is great. In fact, it is delightful.

    The purpose and passion of the males (frat boy floundering) is a little mis-guided, but I can overlook that for what your point is.

    Frame control is everything. As I’ve been working Frame this last five years it is a bit astonishing how powerful it is in living life.

    It is working great for me in MRP Game. Outstanding in fact.

    This last two weeks of March is my two weeks of professional call for staff consults in the Hospital. The same hospital that I did my once-divorced-residency specialty at because the housed all the attractive nurses at. And hooked up with my wife with a SNL in 1988. A Huge community hospital with top notch Dynamics. The dynamics in a hospital are…, well really Dynamic.

    It has nothing to do now with hooking up with women there, though. (But I’ll never discount the energy derived from the current pretty nurses, married or not, that’s delightful too) It has to do with the difference in operation in the patient’s frame, the hospital dynamic frame, or the consulting doctors frame. No difference in interpersonal relationships, command presence, assertiveness and mastery, with not being afraid to call shots make just doing rounds as them needing you a princely endeavor. It’s fun and it benefits the patients more. Admittedly that is hard to follow, but it is just merely being in Frame with Command Presence. It works. Beware the medium when the message is the thing to pay attention to.

  3. “…Frame with Command Presence. It works. Beware the medium when the message is the thing to pay attention to.”

    Thank you for your take on hospital dynamics. I can’t say the average nurse here is as cute …but girls are girls and all. This I find interesting though. Since upping the alpha, younger, female physicians routinely frame battle or shit test, often after a benign personal comment. The RN’s straight up “look at me” comfort test, usually.

    Me yesterday: Generally women remain attractive if they remain thin, and that’s an intake issue. Men, OTOH, require a level of muscle tone to maximize their attraction.

    Female surgeon: Oh, God EhIntellect. I’ll play the littlest of violins for you.

    Me: Sorry you missed the simple point. I struck a chord, huh. Didn’t consider you the sensitive type. Try not to take it personally.

    She’s been playing these games for weeks now. Macho independent woman talk, betaizing her husband publicly in conversation, her kids are a burden. I’ll mention she talks like a dude or is she satisfied with panty-waisting her man (which she is). That’s about as aggressive as I’ll be OTJ. I haven’t the off-the-clock,opportunity to discard the kid gloves…yet. Amused mastery re: personal dynamics confuses the accustomed FI equalism.

    I’ve relaxed immensely about patient care. The interdepartmental battles don’t bother me anymore. This unnerves my peers. Been looking to work per diem, too, as my options are limited presently.

    “In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.”

  4. Girl uses tinder to get the men she is NOT sexually attracted to, to shovel snow for her

    Notice how she effortlessly and intuitively lumped men into two neat stacks; only later wishing there was overlap on the stacks. There isn’t. Sexy/attractive does not shovel snow, “wholesome” does…

    “I swiped right exactly a dozen times. Instead of looking for men I was necessarily attracted to, I looked for men who seemed especially wholesome. (If only this Venn diagram had a greater overlap, perhaps I wouldn’t be in this predicament at all.)”

    Women are naturals.

    Hehehee…

  5. The Epiphany phase is when a woman comes to terms with her aging biology,she cannot refute it,she’s getting old,less sexy,less sexual,less beautifull,fuck, less everything she’s ever thought she was.
    Her backbrain,her body is now telling her she is fading,she is becoming less beautifull,she feels less sexual desire as she did in her early twenties(late phase of oestrogen bloom even then),her subconscious knows her fecundity is over.
    Her overblown sense of self worth ,bolstered in all directions by a bloated super ego JewWorldOrder morals for the goy, to tell her,she is special,sexy,beautifull till the day she dies
    She compensates,does a bait and switch and tries to sell her second hand car with lots of mileage(i.e.past its sell by date) on its lovely secondary features, car stereo ,fluffy dice and onboard internet connection.
    She LOve Tests her prospective man,if he will fall for it.
    She’s trying to sell him her specialness ,her LOve trip.Her frame.
    Will he take the hook ,line and sinker? 1st,2nd,3rd date.
    She is less than him,beta man is rising in SMV actually compared to hers which is falling.She’s trying to cast a Feminine Imperitive Spell on him.Trying to sell herself on the special features rather than her raw true sexual value.
    beta men fail and love her, subtly,or not, under her thumb.
    Alpha men were never interested in the fist place.

  6. “I swiped right exactly a dozen times. Instead of looking for men I was necessarily attracted to, I looked for men who seemed especially wholesome. (If only this Venn diagram had a greater overlap, perhaps I wouldn’t be in this predicament at all.)”

    Wholesome = easily played or hustled

  7. @Intellect

    Why not get a group from the hospital to meet for a drink? I know surgeons’ hours vary wildly, but some of the surgeons and staff will be able to make it, surely? If it’s a routine thing…call it “team building”, heh…it will be easier for surgeons to make it more often.

  8. @theasdgamer
    “Wholesome = easily played or hustled

    How true.

    Unfortunately for the woman, even if someone who was potentially attractive to her, she loses that spark immediately he takes her on the offer. I think I remember Rollo saying something akin to,”Women do not expect (or even prefer) that the cad be the dad too, or vice versa.”

    It is as if they are afraid to solicit for a snow shovel from the cad incase he fuks up and takes her on the offer and she has to pluck him from stack A to stack B, therefore losing a tingles kindler. Heheheee…

    It is starting to get clearer to me how painful it must be for the woman to give up stack A and start rooting through stack B for something remotely interesting enough to fuk (and marry! ( at a colourful wedding!!)). She knows stack B is the garbage bin. Her innermost animal self knows this. Since she was a teenager she has lived knowing that it is the reject bin. And there is no overlap. Now she has to go there. It is like rooting through a garbage bin for something to eat then sit down at a well laid table and pretend to yourself you got something worthwhile and appetizing enough (from a garbage bin!), fit for a banquet.

    Heheheee

  9. @ ASD

    Units, departments and social groups do meet, tend to run in their own circles. I crash them routinely. They’re work time rehash, hours long, gossip, the betas commiserate with the gals and I end up rolling my eyes, milking my beer, bored and it shows. I can’t bear not to sexualize, the girls like it, at least find it entertaining, but they’re not that pretty, generally, and I feel I’m giving too much value, taking none (h/t HABD, That concept is clarifying).

    Doctors, as lawyers generally associate with like-kind, unless they’re looking for action. I’m off the reservation. Twice a year there’s an official alcohol fueled physician social, any RP behavior is unnerving though.

    One of the reasons I had an upper management HR meeting recently. They think I’m actively blowing my life up. Ironically, my home, my marriage, work and integrity has never been better.

    Side note: At these parties, grown men approach and fuck with my tie, complimenting it, touching it. Not AMOGing, because I KNOW these guys. They wouldn’t AMOG if their lives depended on it. Happened last week with the younger couple. God, was that analogous to ball sniffing? Fuck.

    Was at a home party a years back. Highly successful surgeons, wives, husbands quickly devolved into quarters, college games. I got a swingers feel. They were drinking heavily, fast. I was tipsy. For whatever reason my mind yelled “Abort! Abort! Abort!” Then again, how would I know what a swinger’s scene is? I’ve only seen a little of it, and booze, drugs play a role. IDK.

    It’s me, not them. I’d rather Sigma the rest of my life than submit to that off hours. I don’t avoid the parties, nor buffer excuse me being too good for them. My home life, kids have much value.

    My wife loves the parties as she gets compliments and conversation she’d otherwise not get. She’s not plugged into that crowd, and I assume doesn’t want to. In a way, that’s fortunate. There is tremendous value in my marriage, parenting. I’m astonished at the change.

    Side note: Mrs. Eh’s shit tests continue, but are a whole different breed. Comfort, mostly, and usually because I don’t calibrate enough. Easily dealt with, I’m astonished at the dynamic. Recently was barrail with wife, and my erstwhile suicidal, now RP TRM acquaintance called asking me to celebrate his 2 (!) plate spinning/back at school/”I know your trick, EhIntellect!”/”Now I understand the true nature of women.” “My life has never been better.” life. I was celebrating on the phone with him. Well, yeah, after the 5-10 minute chat, Mrs. Eh. wasn’t too pleased. She started to test about me treating her as a “whore” and my daughter shabbily.

    Still upbeat, I kissed her forehead and whispered, “You’re no whore. You’re MY whore.” Well, that didn’t work as intended, she sulked, I got up and said let’s go. Nope she sat and I dropping her jacket on my chair, wordlessly left out the back. The bar waitress walked her out by the arm 3 minutes later.

    I’d have never been able to do that without you guys.

    I had a karaoke night planned, for me, so kept on. In a way I “bounced” her to another venue, ran with her happily sprinting with me to the new pub. It’s like the dust up never happened, she was crazy sexual for the rest of the night. That’s what we’re to do right? Spike that test!

    I wanted to sing, and raised the roof that night. Did I reinforce bad behavior? IMO, no. The test is to be passed, my burden of performance, she holds me tighter, begs me for affection as never before. Sex is plentiful. More frame for me, no snark, much laughter. Yay!

  10. On the face of it its absurd that a woman could have sex with a Bad Boy on the first date, but would make a supposedly superior “relationship material” man wait and wait. But could AFBB be an evolved sexual strategy?

    If she perceives a man as “Alpha” then she (subconsciously) judges him as having superior genetic material. She’s going to be powerfully driven to have sex with him to capture those genes.

    But for a Beta men she basically just wants his resources, not his genes. She’ll have the bare minimum of sex she can get away with in order to secure his loyalty. This is to minimize the chance of falling pregnant by him. In the meanwhile she’ll be fucking Alpha males behind his back.

    Even if she isn’t cheating with her Beta provider, this would be the underlying rationale why she feels so sexual little desire for him and so miserly doles out sex to him.

  11. @CSI, the post you’re looking for is this:
    https://therationalmale.com/2014/09/01/the-myth-of-the-good-guy/

    Also something to consider:
    https://therationalmale.com/2015/02/06/two-camps/

    The pushback you’ll get on your comment is that women are still in fact breeding with Betas, however, in a feminine-primary social order that prioritizes Hypergamy above all else, Alphas are ‘outbanging’ those Betas. Meaning the underlying evolutionarily prompted sexual impulses are still the driving factor in the SMP, despite Blue Pill guys believing that they will “win in the end”.

    They also blithely ignore the fact that in the same feminine-primary social dynamic ‘their’ children and women’s unilaterally controlled Hypergamy (both pro and re actively) are never really ‘their’ kids beyond the genetic material he contributes to them. His influence in their upbringing is greatly mitigated and superseded by that of the feminine collective Village influence on ‘his’ kids.

    There was a time when women’s imperative was to have children with as much an Alpha man as her attractiveness could afford at or around her peak SMV years. In our fem-centric era women are convinced that their peak SMV is imperishable (because attractiveness is conflated as a social construct) thus the consolidating on Hypergamy gets further and further delayed in women’s lives. This has the counter-effect of Alpha cads exploiting the ‘banging’ market and the underlying evolved sexual predilections of women.

    Betas like to wave around the idea that eventually they win out because if they’re persistent the used up woman who’d have nothing to do with them prior will now start a family with him. What they fail to grasp is the myriad ways his ‘legacy’ for his kids is never really of his own design. And that’s assuming he isn’t also adopting the genetic legacy of an Alpha who came before him by “doing the right thing” with a single mommie.

  12. At these parties, grown men approach and fuck with my tie, complimenting it, touching it.

    Probably grooming behavior…females and betas groom alphas

  13. “They think I’m actively blowing my life up. Ironically, my home, my marriage, work and integrity has never been better.”

    ^^fucking this

    most people have no idea what success and happiness look like, so why the fuck would a man listen to anything they have to say regarding his life.

    most of them lead lives of “quiet desperation” and taking advice from secretly desperate people is like drinking ocean water because you’re thirsty

  14. …. I can’t resist

    ” Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
    You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.
    Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
    Waiting for someone or something to show you the way.

    Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain.
    You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today.
    And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
    No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.

    So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it’s sinking
    Racing around to come up behind you again.
    The sun is the same in a relative way but you’re older,
    Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

    Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time.
    Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
    Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
    The time is gone, the song is over,
    Thought I’d something more to say. ”

    Unrelated tidbit-

    The very first time I ever ” got high ” was in a room covered with ” black light ” posters from floor to ceiling. After toking up a storm, I reclined in a chair and the Black Light was turned on, and Dark Side was placed on the turntable at a decent audio level.

    Shit. Was. Epic.

    * Disclaimer *

    Just say no.

  15. @EhIntellect

    Short discussion made long:

    A little expounding on your Side Note @10:04 today. Re: your erstwhile suicidal, now RP TRM acquaintance discussion.

    Your wife’s response to overhearing your conversation is normal operating procedure for women. I’ve been through this scenario and could shed some more light on it.

    Sure it is a shit test. Sure it is a comfort test. Doesn’t matter. It’s not about passing a shit test. It’s about using it to your advantage. “You’re no whore. You’re MY whore.” was an agree and amplify response to the test. Not the best way to accomplish your goals. Your goals here were to mentor your buddy. Not to game your wife–you already have that in hand (And BTW I’m enjoying your progress and your comments, they’re inspiring in a sort of way that you are following in a my wake of having gone through the same process. Congrats and high five for your MRP accomplishments. The process is real and it is spectacular.)

    What this situ calls for is to conduct your discussions with men in fight club in private.

    What’s going on with your wife in this situation is and INDIGNATION of the SISTERHOOD scenario. (How fucking dare you help another man to implement his strategy to compromise the strategy of the Sisterhood? The Sisterhood’s Social Conventions and their Feminine Imperatives to implement their strategy are more important in a Feminine Supreme Society than you buddy gaining agency). Your wife on behalf of her and your daughter is affronted by you giving him tactics. (She figures on your part this is you giving her and your daughter and indignity because you are giving this: insult, offend, mortify, provoke, pique, wound, hurt to the Sisterhood Strategy and Imperatives.) You are poking the mother of your children in the ribs with riposte. She doth protests. She figures it’s not fucking fair.

    So this talking red pill to red pill with guys is best kept off the grid and out of sight and earshot.
    Now keep in mind this is not abdicating frame any more than a Machiavellian strategist is embarrassed by his tactics being kept secret.

    Tyler Durden in fight club would not agree about using overt, rather than covert discussions about blowing up the edifices (buildings, social conventions and imperatives) in society to achieve ends.

    I have been having covert discussions with red pill men via email, cell phone and in person at get togethers for a couple years now. I’ve encountered situations, where my wife over hears and gets indignant about me talking guy stuff to other guys. My Take? Well first of all, she doesn’t need to know about my counseling or commiseration or mentoring red pill. I’m not shy to tell her to fuck off when I talk to guys with “direct” language and all. It goes to assertiveness training. To wife: “You don’t have to tell me how to have discussions as an adult male with my guy friends. Nor do you have to listen in or monitor my guy talk. Nor will I ask you to to allow me to monitor your girl talk discussions, texts, and emails with your girl friends in person, at bars, restaurants, bowling, golfing or in socializing at the country club.

    This is plain: not being embarrassed or non assertive about talking red pill to red pill guys. But she doesn’t need to be privy to the communications or be in charge of you overtly talking red pill.

    This is analogous to Softek being covert about porn or not admitting to it. And her lording it over him as a surrogate SuperEgo mother to be embarrassed and not do that shit. I don’t do porn much at all. (My wife admittedly doesn’t care “if I take care of myself when needed”) But if I did I would own it and do it i private. Out of sight out of mind. No Shaming needed. No shame Allowed by the man in question.

    So I keep my red pill guy to guy Convos private for a good reason. No use lording it over as an Alpha mindset. It doesn’t work that way with the sisterhood, any more than girls appreciate guys reading Rollo Tomassi books. “You should know this stuff, but you shouldn’t know this stuff, if it were up to the Sisterhood. You guys are taking away OUR POWER and I’m going to shit test you about that with some INDIGNATION.”

    Best to keep fight club covert. Best to have heart-to-heart unfiltered red pill masculine discussions out the the earshot of women partners that would like to domineer and betatize men.

    This tactic is not being Beta. It is not lacking Assertiveness. It is just respect for her stage of Sensibilities at this Stage in your Reconstruction. Don’t throw it in her face.

    Secret underground forts in the woods were fun in the ’70s and they are still fun now.

  16. Is there an “Epiphany Phase” when a woman who leaves or gets dumped, acts out angrily and badly suddenly realizes “Shit…I’m surrounded by betas who adore me…why won’t HE talk to me?”

    I’ve noticed this and seen it referred here as “Alpha Widow” but it has started dawning on me that when I withdraw attention women come back and I see this as “mini epiphanies” or realizations of “uh oh…”

    Sharks’ blog had a great line about how women when they break up or shit test in many ways want to see you suffer because it makes leaving you easier…”He was weak”.

    The hardest things I’ve done have been the most rewarding personally in terms of growth, satisfaction and my own understanding of female behavior.

    We as guys are always trying to fix things…women fool us into thinking “we can work it out”…

    But it’s really a power struggle isn’t it? I had drinks with an older woman I was gaming who was looking hot for her age. She had that slight attitude of “I want to lead…why do men always lead???””

    I calmly looked at her and used the line I saw somewhere here and now make it part of my standard response to angry feminists:

    “Why not try to be a better woman…instead of trying so hard to be a substandard man? You’ll never be good at it because….biology”.

    She paused…Smiled…We changed the subject. The rest of the night she deferred to me. She now wants to come over and cook and clean up. Wtf?

  17. @Walawala

    Your question: “Wtf?”

    It’s just Frame Battling.

    Enjoy the process. You will always have to frame battle. You kept frame with the older woman and you said the exact right thing. She fell into your Frame. No mystery there. No WTF? Normal female operating procedure.

    Frame is not power.

    Sounds like your game is good. Set your mental hurdles (how you view your frustrations) as no big deal.

    Are you happy, fulfilled, have agency, power to control your own circumstances and direction of your life (sovereignty?).

    Is there something that you would like to do that you are not doing? Are you energized by your Game or are those women sucking your energy? Do you feel like you have enough traction and no regrets about your current progress.

  18. Wala

    it has started dawning on me that when I withdraw attention women come back

    Cat String Theory…

    She had that slight attitude of “I want to lead…why do men always lead???””

    A good line I’ve been using is “you send out a signal. Act up. Push them, to find the limits. You search to find the guy who can take… you… in hand.”

  19. @Sjf. Do I feel I have enough traction and no regrets about my progress?

    Progress is subjective. But what’s more significant is Learning not to repeat behaviours that held me back. yes.

    I learn something new and realized something insightful.

    Should I have told those “friends” to back off? Maybe. But the reality was the plate was proactively grooming these thirsty losers who enjoyed the attention.

    They bought expensive dinners and showed up for her silly events. I never did. I feel angry at the dudes but I realized the best way to deal with that anger is use it as a motivator.

    So im motivated. My game is a bit more calibrated to avoid the big bold moves that at this point might lead to a rejection that I just don’t want AT THIS POINT. But I’m still moving forward.

    It’s a work in progress but my self monitoring is much better so I think my game and game and red pill advice go dudes here is solid.

  20. @wala

    “Why not try to be a better woman…instead of trying so hard to be a substandard man? You’ll never be good at it because….biology”.

    I’m sooo proud of you! Sounds like some of my comments, but in your words.

  21. “It’s a work in progress but my self monitoring is much better so I think my game and game and red pill advice go (sic, prob. meant for) dudes here is solid.”

    You solid as hell in your advice. Drawing you out is informative in whether you feel you are solid enough to embrace your own personal reality. Which arcs back to the community. Agency and all.

  22. @SJF. The biggest learning this year and the hardest thing was ghosting the plate who I think was playing me.

    She lashed out Ina weird creepy way…blocked and deleted…I noticed but never reacted. I didn’t react mainly because previously in similar situations I did react. It accomplished nothing for me. I felt worse.

    Now yah sure I felt bad….I felt betrayed by my “friends” who were rationalising their thirsty beta behaviour around her.

    But….to have expressed any sort of over reaction would have set me back.

    The revenge I experienced was passive. I went out to enjoy myself and didn’t care who saw me.

    These concepts were hard for me to internalise until I’d been through them several times…in other words despite my alphabets I did act beta and that repetition meant I wasn’t advancing.

    Discipline is critical to a Red Pill mindaet,。zfg takes work….because you’ve been conditioned to be accommodating.

    I checked the text I sent married girl. It was cocky but then contained a vulnerable revelation of a guy who has a softer side she never really got to see. The contrast and mystery produce tingles. But abundance means I have to move on and let that one play out however it does.

    I think my advice to dudes here comes from a place of a guy who meets and bangs a lot of women and who has seen muh of the theory of this blog play out in reality.

    This blog has helped shape my thinking but experience has fine tuned it.

  23. I can’t help but feel some empathy for epiphany phase women.

    Their epiphany means they’ve failed. It shows that they made the comment FI mistake of believing that the men they could fuck and the ones they could marry are the same.

    It shows they overplayed their hand in the SMP and are only left with stark choices.

    The options they have going forward are unpalatable to them but I have to question how deep this “epiphany” really goes?
    I’m unsure that their egos will allow them to really accept that they overplayed their SMV and ended up chad-less, they probably hamster their lack of success down to bad luck and/or men not playing fair.

    I don’t think the epiphany goes any deeper than “shit maybe I should lock down a nice beta now while I still can”.
    I’m not sure that there is any acceptance of having played any part of her failure in the SMP, she didn’t make “bad choices” or aim too high for her level of attractiveness, circumstances and the stars just didn’t align for her and she was unjustly denied her rightful prize.

    I have empathy because all she did was follow her biological impulses, choosing alpha chads was not a mistake ( how could it be? ) she was just following her instinctual programming and her ego will not allow her to accept she’s not as attractive as she thought.

    She is left with the options of having to accept the attentions of a beta for whom she has no desire or carrying on riding the alpha fucks cock carousel and likely ending up unmarried and maybe even childless.

    That’s actually a pretty shitty mental space to be in.

    She will never be happy if she settles for BB security, and deep down she know this, she will always feel the call of the alpha, at least until her eggs run out.

    There is no epiphany, there is no “getting right with her self”, there is only an acceptance of her reduced options at most but culpability for these reduced options? Never!

    And she is right she was just following her biological imperative so how could the alpha bad boys be “bad choices”? They weren’t, she was just unsuccessful that is all. That must be a bitter pill to swallow for a woman.

    The epiphany for a woman is like the red pill for a beta male.

    I wonder if they go through the 5 stages too?

  24. I wonder if they go through the 5 stages too?

    I would be surprised if they didn’t. Though the hamster should be a great tranquilizer too. I can imagine the same hamster that allows a girl to branch swing with abandon also will be called to task to provide enough matal/psychic cushioning for the fall. Most women do not even know the word “wall” as the redpillers do. So I think for most it is probably a vague nagging discomfort/pain about the state of affairs the reason for which she may not (or may not want to) assign a precise explanation for.

  25. You’re probably right. But even if they reach the acceptance stage I don’t believe they will own the culpability.

    Unlike a former beta who can see that his SMP failure was down to his betaness , I don’t believe that any Hb6 plus woman will ever come to the realisation that she just wasn’t hot/feminine/ charming enough to lock down the men she wanted.

    The best she can do is accept that her options have reduced and deal with her new reality with the help of her hamster, but a true “I wasn’t good enough before” epiphany like a beta man can have after swallowing the red pill?
    I don’t believe they are capable of killing the ego investments that would require.

  26. There’s a 2nd epiphany…

    women who get divorced then remarry after a few years of riding the carousel and get a man who is in the “won’t bang” category and they have to bang him occasionally

  27. I’m unsure that their egos will allow them to really accept that they overplayed their SMV and ended up chad-less, they probably hamster their lack of success down to bad luck and/or men not playing fair.

    There is some truth to that, I think, in terms of most women seeing the issue as being that the alphas in their lives were too selfish or commitment phobic or caddish or what have you, and they just got unlucky compared to Sally over there who married the Alpha Bux. Most are keenly aware of their shrinking SMV, and resent that to one degree or other (they notice immediately once the ambient male visual attention even begins to drop off slightly, really) and men get the blame for that, often, as well, for being “shallow and obsessed with youth” (which of course they themselves took full advantage of as long as it worked). There is a smaller group of women who sees things a bit more clearly, and recovers from the alpha stage more successfully than marrying an abject “will not bang” lower beta male once the clock runs out, but they’re outnumbered, I think, by the ones who are more clueless about their own role in their life outcomes.

  28. At least as men we have built in protection from marriage/ltr to women in the “would not bang” category as we have to perform in bed, we don’t have the option of slapping on a bit of lube and just taking one for the team.

    This is why men aren’t generally gold diggers as we can’t perform for a woman who repulses us no matter how much wealth or status she has.

    I’m on TRT and use cialis to enhance my sexual performance and I can confirm that it does not induce desire or increased ability to fuck a woman who you are not attracted to.

  29. “You should know this stuff, but you shouldn’t know this stuff, if it were up to the Sisterhood. You guys are taking away OUR POWER and I’m going to shit test you about that with some INDIGNATION.”

    @SJF —

    Yes, it’s because it violates the “just get it” principle. It’s fine if a man “just gets it”. It’s not fine if a man has to learn it in order to get it, because in the latter case there is a concern that he doesn’t actually really “get it”, because he isn’t a man who “just gets it”. More fundamentally, they do not trust themselves to be able to tell the difference between a man who “just gets it” and man who has learned from other men how to “get it”, and they fundamentally *do* want to distinguish between the two types of men because that is a critical alpha filter. What you’re doing is sabotaging their filter, which of course will be unwelcome, never mind that they will generally be just as satisfied with a man who learns to get it as they would with a man who just gets it, in practice (as long as the former guy maintains frame and so on properly). So, yes, don’t talk about fight club outside flght club and all that.

  30. It would be interesting to see a poll of how many sphere posters like video instruction, and how many do not. I used to think
    I was alone in not liking them, but a couple of years back Badpainter mentioned he never watched them. And several posters over at Scott Adam’s site mentioned it too and said they hoped he wasn’t going to go toward videos instead of the written word.

  31. @SJF
    Your wife’s response to overhearing your conversation is normal operating procedure for women. I’ve been through this scenario and could shed some more light on it.

    Classy and profound comment (all of it!). For a minute there while reading this I thought it was Rollo talking. I think this comment should be expanded on in an article in it’s own right- we all need to be reminded that dogspeak needs to be done away from cats.

    Recently, my supposedly LTR found my copy of Mystery Method (it was close by my copy of The Surrendered Wife I was hoping she’d stumble upon). I stupidly discussed it for a couple of evenings and she dumped me soon after under an unrelated frivolous reason. I have no doubt MM and the subsequent discussion was the primary contribution to her leaving. I wonder what would have happened had she found my copies of Rational Male.

    This stuff is powerful and should consumed primarily by adults.

  32. @anon

    I much prefer the written word because:

    1) input is much, much faster,

    2) it’s easy to cut & past text for quoting, and

    3) it’s easy to search

  33. “I much prefer the written word because:

    1) input is much, much faster,

    2) it’s easy to cut & past text for quoting, and

    3) it’s easy to search”

    Thanks, Gamer. I think the same.
    The first is particularly key. The videos are competing with things like Ted Talks (and videos of funny animals and real comedians). I think (some of) the ones that demonstrate might be helpful (example some of the pickup videos), but just sitting and talking to the camera…that’s asking the viewer to commit a certain amount of time (often a great deal of time…and everyone’s time is valuable to them). But that’s just my opinion.
    I’ve noticed (by real life observation) I don’t typically think like most other people, so I go under the assumption my opinion isn’t mainstream. But I think on this one it might be (or at least not in outlier land).

  34. You don’t have to rewind text 20 times to catch a point. It stays right there until you’re ready to move on. And who actually watches talking video anyway? It’s really just audio. I listen to it while I’m doing something else, like polishing bicycle spokes or something, maybe with the monitor turned off so it doesn’t distract me.

    Even when I had a YouTube channel I only posted text. I have no movie maker/star itch to be scratched. I’d rather be Jonathan Swift than Steven Spielberg.

  35. I’m not trying to be evocative or insulting or trollish. I’m just going to use plan words to describe it as it is.

    When a female enters the epiphany phase she goes into prostitution mode or as the late Reverend Lawrence Shannon called it, the predatory mode.

    As we know, women are exceptionally and naturally manipulative. She is exponentially more intelligent in this regard than nearly all men. She holds out sex not merely because she lacks lust for him. She is negotiating a future arrangement in which she will have the choice of not working, of fulfilling her deepest biological desire to reproduce and raise children, of owning half of what he owns and makes (with the promise of alimony) while he wastes himself in endless stress and work.

    When she holds out she is creating the illusion in his mind that he needs her more than she needs him. She will subtly, carefully let him know she has other options. She will flirt with other men. She will tell him of a casual contact she had with a man at work or the coffee shop. This puts her in the position of the employer and him in the position of the employee begging for a job. She has hand, a position of power she will maintain throughout the courtship and marriage.

    At some point she will shower him with sex and blowjobs. This will addict him to her. She goes further: she becomes like him, she begins to like his music, movies, hobbies. As Reverend Shannon put it, she enters the chameleon phase. The hapless beta believes he has found his soul mate.

    She pressures him to move in, the “where is this going” conversation is on the horizon and, if that fails, she will give him an ultimatum. Or she may break things off under fabricated reasons in order to drive beta nuts and and send him into fits of passion which will drive him to earn her love. This is an old-pro move in which she further creates the illusion that she needs him least.

    Rollo’s cardinal rule of relationships: “In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.” She creates the illusion that she needs him the least.

  36. It would be interesting to see a poll of how many sphere posters like video instruction, and how many do not.

    What I’ve noticed is that it depends primarily on how each of us prefers to consume information. For people who like to multitask, they prefer videos or even podcasts, because it’s in the background and they are doing something else. Reading is much faster than listening to people talk (it’s really remarkably faster, especially if you read quickly), but it forecloses multitasking. So it really comes down to how people prefer to consume information. I tend strongly to prefer reading because it’s much faster and when I find I am multitasking during a video, I lose a significant amount of the content by doing so, but I know other people who are just the opposite and can’t imagine taking the fixed block of non-multi-task time to sit and read something when they can multitask with something like that in the background. I think it’s more of a personal preference.

  37. The hamster is strong in them.

    There was this girl I really “loved” back in my college days. I never got with her. Not that I even tried. She was quite a looker and had it really going for her with some topgun mofos around town. She knew how I felt. She got married to one of the mofos but I gather he ditched her soon after.

    The other day I ran in to her and could hardly recognize her. It took a moment for me to remember/realise who I was looking at. Her face, skin, her lips…she looked really different. I must admit I felt a bit repulsed if sorry for her.

    But the way she was talking to me I could tell she still adressing me from her former sense of self. She was talking like the college girl I knew from a decade back! I was in a hurry so I excused myself but not before she invited me for a coffee later.

    We met for the coffee and she came in dressed in a mildly slutty outfit… I recognized the dress code as her, but the body was not her. It was very off. I think I could have felt very different about her younger self in this, but this time round I wanted to just leave. She was obviously still collegiate in mind, but not in body. The way she was chatting sounded like she was oblivious to the fact that her body was considerably run down.

    Well, well…

  38. @Bachelorocles

    I like the way you think…
    But she won’t necessarily withhold sex at the beginning. She just may shower him with all he can eat and thus ensnare him in her trap – quantity, BJs, anal, kink…
    Then come the withdrawal once the wedding ring is obtained

  39. @DisgruntledEarthling

    I agree she could try to addict her target immediately. But I was trying to explore Rollo’s question as why they do hold out during their epiphany or prostitution phase.

    I don’t have the answer. Just trying to throw a log on the fire.

    I suspect the sex she gives her beta target in this phase is given with the expectation of future returns. It’s an investment in her and her offspring’s future. When a woman fucks an alpha she does not walk away feeling she is owned for it. Not so with a beta. I think her hold out is a negotiation and manipulation.

  40. ” . . . why they do hold out during their epiphany or prostitution phase.”

    A) They want to.
    B) It works.

  41. @kfg

    C) Because they can

    D) Because they think they can until they lower their sights

    E) Because they tell themselves that they’ve changed and become serious

  42. “I suspect the sex she gives her beta target in this phase is given with the expectation of future returns. ”

    Not a direct correlation, IMO. It takes much less sex to ensnare many a-Beta’s provisioning. Well, slot machine regularity produces peak ROI. I assume as much as Betas are quasi-celibate prior and would be partially satisfied with the female company, as a LJBF, serving the role of partial girlfriend (special snowflake) until he financially stumbles, is too pathetic to live with and she can leave with ample cash and prizes. There’s a negative correlation phase too. The run up to the big break can be a huge windfall as he romantically appeals to her insatiable consumptive nature.

    IDK, just guessing: Weeks after many a Cancun vacation divorce papers are served.

    F) They’ve been told to establish their careers and provisioning before marrying.

  43. Novaseeker
    What I’ve noticed is that it depends primarily on how each of us prefers to consume information. For people who like to multitask, they prefer videos or even podcasts, because it’s in the background and they are doing something else. Reading is much faster than listening to people talk (it’s really remarkably faster, especially if you read quickly), but it forecloses multitasking.

    Nobody really multitasks, or at least nobody multitasks at that level. What actually appears to happen is th brain does a switch of context from A to B then back to A again very quickly. The focus of attention shifts, then shifts again. Yeah, ok, people drive in traffic while enjoying music, I did it yesterday with a Bach Partita and mulitple lanes of drivers, but the real driver is “in” the traffic with the music as a background process. Maybe tunes in the ears can screen out other audibles that are more of a distraction, I’ve known some pretty good coders who used their earbuds that way.

    The women who claim to multitask in the kitchen with multiple children on the floor? Watch them and see that it’s really fast attention shifts. Or not so fast – the bloody nose leads to burning the rice, for example.

    Listen vs. read: The people I know who listen to words while doing something else tend to not actually get all that is said, unless the spoken words are really simple. Maybe an audio book while driving on a straight freeway can work, but I bet not so much on a 2-lane road in the hills.

    There also seems to be a generational preference, a lot of people under 35 or so are more tuned in to audio/video and less to words in a line. Neuroplasticity at work no doubt, if one is raised on video that is ubiquitous, that’s “normal”.

  44. cheupez
    But the way she was talking to me I could tell she still adressing me from her former sense of self. She was talking like the college girl I knew from a decade back!

    It may have been just for you, because “college”. Although if she keeps that up, she’ll become more like Norma Desmond.

    Now, it’s not that rare for people to get stuck in a mental rut at some point. How many beta nerd men still talk and act as if they are undergrads in a dorm? More than a few. Part of the Red Pill requires a man to look at himself as he is, otherwise he can’t know what needs to improve. Women don’t seem to really do that very much.

  45. EhIntellect
    They’ve been told to establish their careers and provisioning before marrying.

    In other words, to become their own betas. Because “men and women are exactly the same”, so provisioning game will surely work when run by a woman on a man. This is the standard track that is taught to girls in high school, reinforced in college or trade school or on the job.

    I used to think it was the feminist side of the FI pushing, but now I’m leaning more towards open hypergamy: party with the Alphas, catch some of their sperm then marry a Beta for provisioning. AF-BC.

  46. E) Because they tell themselves that they’ve changed and become serious

    This fits The hamster intervenes

  47. In other words, to become their own betas. Because “men and women are exactly the same”, so provisioning game will surely work when run by a woman on a man. This is the standard track that is taught to girls in high school, reinforced in college or trade school or on the job.

    I’m seeing in a 19yo I’m currently seeing. I’ve subtly introduced the thought that the traditional female role is also acceptable and could see that thought was pretty foreign to her thinking.

  48. @KFG

    B. It works.

    I believe it is a manipulative strategy to secure provisioning in service of her reproductive urges. I also believe much of female manipulation operates in the background and women are unaware of most of it. It operates in the background in service of her reproductive urges and provisioning needs.

    I think this is why you cannot get a truthful answer when you ask a woman why she wants marriage. She will give wholesome rationalizations believing them to be honest reasons. Her manipulative firmware, however, operating in the service of her biological urges wants marriage for security, provisioning, the freedom of not working so she can reproduce, and, of course, alimony and child support when the time is right to cash in . . . or a nice retirement plan when he dies ten years before she does because he worked himself into an early death.

    @EhIntellect

    I agree slot machine regularity does produce the greatest ROI. But the question is why does she hold out? If she is going to have him sex with him why not immediately?

    I think women during the epiphany phase in pursuit of a provisioning marriage hold out in order to manipulate her target by creating the illusion she needs him least. It also sends a message that she is of higher value and has other options and is the one sought after. These give her negotiation leverage. It also creates the illusion that she is chaste and men instinctively prefer chaste women.

    But sex here resembles prostitution because she really is receiving fewer sexual rewards in return for the sex she gives her beta and she will therefore feel she is owned for the sex she gives.

    I think the same happens when she transforms an alpha into a provisioning beta.

    http://www.theonion.com/article/girlfriend-changes-man-into-someone-shes-not-inter-1507

    I once heard a recently divorced woman who did not hit the jackpot say, “ten years of marriage and this is all I got in return.”

  49. “Part of the Red Pill requires a man to look at himself as he is, otherwise he can’t know what needs to improve. Women don’t seem to really do that very much.”

    Also I think a man has much room for improvement. He need not hamster. A girl can only try so much after her face starts falling apart (hence the need for good old Mr. Hamster). Even the men that she previously deemed beneath her want to dodge her!

    Coz though I was grateful for the coffee, I felt relieved when she said she had someone to meet afterwards. In college what I could have given to get with that woman! I doubt she would have even given that even a passing thought! But now, I was feeling almost embarrassed to be seen with her in the tight pants and skimpy top. I have plates who are single moms, but they are either just out of college, or the years have been kinder to their faces. This was one of the best looking women I knew but now she was a NO, NO! Life is such a bitch sometimes.

    Sigh.

  50. ” I also believe much of female manipulation operates in the background and women are unaware of most of it. It operates in the background in service of her reproductive urges and provisioning needs.”

    The female sexual strategy is covert. So covert that it operates double blind. If the player becomes too aware of her strategy, the strategy breaks down.

    The babies must flow.

  51. “creating the illusion she needs him least”

    It’s no illusion, she doesn’t need the Beta for sex or provisioning. I see it with female PA’s, earning well single, marries husband, who earns well. A designer marriage. It’s a marriage of convienence, not provisioning either way. Yeah, she wins provisioning, I guess…but doesn’t really need it at just over 6 figures. He autolimits his sexual options, though.

    Therefore, why not hold out? Children aren’t even in the equation for her. Women are told to reject the patriarchy by default as AR wrote “This is the standard track that is taught to girls in high school, reinforced in college or trade school or on the job.”

    I could go on and on. Dudes! Stop me before I…uh…well…think mean thoughts.

    Quoting a DINK-female PA: “We have this 3200 square foot house. I’d never thought it’d be too small.” FFS. Young female humble bragging, they’re not pretty either, equate their education to attraction value. Think anyone in the room gives two chickenshits about money. If anything she’s fomenting jealousy. Solipsism at its finest.

    Shudder…I’m selection biased though from this BP world I work in.

  52. “…men instinctively prefer chaste women.”

    Perhaps, perhaps not. Betas excuse a lot. His dynamic is conventionally precooked to her benefit. Wife up that slut!

    From the OP:

    “Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his conditioning would make of him.”

  53. More from the OP:

    “Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself. They love nothing better than the idea of the reformed porn star who’s finally “grown up” and come to her senses about the error of her youth’s indiscretions with the guys they grew up to hate as an archetype. Better still, they’ll feed that rationale/fantasy in the hope that her Epiphany will include her saving her best sex for him since now she’s come to understand that it’s been the ‘nice guys’ all along she ought to have been getting with if not for ‘society’ convincing her otherwise.”

  54. “She just may shower him with all he can eat and thus ensnare him in her trap – quantity, BJs, anal, kink…
    Then come the withdrawal once the wedding ring is obtained”

    Women must have a tell if they’re running trap game. I would love to hear from guys who got cut off after the wedding night who can look back during the trap phase and suss out her tell(s).

    a post revealing those tells would be super valuable for those about to say “I do” as they could still walk away

    a few possible tells she’s not going to cut it off after the wedding:

    1) she was sexually inexperienced, so she didn’t know for sure that it was such a powerful weapon and had never run trap game before, but she discovered she just really likes to get fucked

    2) she never asked for anything, especially exclusivity, while giving it and everything else she had like money, time, connections, etc.

    3) she never threatened to walk. ever.

    4) she didn’t have a “top hits” playbook. sex was more experimental than a performance, unless I told her to perform

    5) there was no straight progression i.e. handjob, bj, sex, facials, anal, kink play, threesome. everything was always on the table and going “backwards” to a handjob was just as fun as “fast-forwarding” to anal and choking. there was never “saving” anything for things like “special occasions”

    6) there was no “if this, then that” i.e. sex after a nice dinner. sex always came before any date and sex was never a reward for anything. sex was always expected, regardless of what we did or didn’t do.

    7) she always swallowed and never said a word about it

    8) she didn’t wear underwear

  55. Fleezer

    That’s just what Desire Sex looks like… You can still fuck this up via betaization.

  56. “That’s just what Desire Sex looks like…”

    so women can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it?

    women are generally terrible actors as they are so solipsistic it prevents them from even understanding the idea of stepping into another person’s shoes, let alone doing it convincingly.

    maybe if the hamster is running the show and she’s acting without knowing she’s acting….

    that means a woman has no true feelings. just feelz that dictate her behavior based on what she wants and needs at that moment. so is “desire sex” really indicative of desire like men process desire, or are we projecting onto them our desire when for her it’s really just “this is how I move when the hamster is happy”

    is a person without feelings really a person?

    if her programming really is that fucking cold and amoral, then red pill and game are the only reasonable path for men.

  57. @KFG

    lol

    I estimate 60% of everything a woman says is not what she really means. Conversations she has are very often directed at those within earshot. When your woman has a telephone conversation in front of you, much of what she says is directed at you.

    They are wily social creatures.

    @EhIntellect

    I would say it depends on her economic status. We know hypergamy impels women to marry up and marrying up includes a rise in income and social status. Don’t forget, high earning men and high social status men like CEOs, doctors, or trust fund babies can be and very often are betas. We also know high earning women have a difficult time finding spouses because hypergamy prevents them from marrying below their economic class. What is the prize hubby for American heiresses? The titled European aristocrat.

    “Therefore, why not hold out? Children aren’t even in the equation for her.”

    But in the epiphany stage when her ovaries are screaming bloody murder, reproduction is in the equation of her unconscious, semi-conscious, and conscious biological urges.

    Do men prefer chaste women? I would say yes but I could be wrong.

    “Most Beta men (and not a few self-described Red Pill men) want to believe in a woman’s Epiphany about herself.”

    Notice he says betas “want to believe” in a woman’s epiphany. He does not mean they could suppress their revulsion when they find the sex tape of her multi- orgasming while being railed in college by two dudes at the same time.

    Of course our fem primary culture urges men to save the ho. But why do women always underestimate their cock count? Evolutionary psychology would suggest men have an instinctual preference for chaste women because it assures him her offspring will be his.

  58. “so women can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it?”

    A woman can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it even when he is actually paying her by the hour.

  59. “A woman can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it even when he is actually paying her by the hour.”

    Q: What do conmen do for fun on their day off?
    A: Con conmen.

  60. @fleezer, all, I’ll eventually do a post on this topic, but what you’re enumerating here about the progression of signs and predictable behaviors a woman exhibits toward her Beta-in-Waiting (Beta Tells) also follow a similar path when a woman wants to have kids with that Beta.

    I’m presently counseling a good friend whose wife had gone from sexually ‘fun’ and enthusiastic to frigid, drip-feed sex after marriage. To compound this frigidity she’d had several miscarriages and he’d gone the dutiful Beta route of paying a very sizable sum of money for fertility treatments. After this, two more miscarriages, and they essentially accepted that she wasn’t ever going to carry a pregnancy to term.

    During the time they were ‘trying’ to have a kid, the sex was frequent and enthusiastic again and he believed he’d done something right (not via Red Pill). He had a new, great paying job they’d moved to a warmer climate state and he thought she’s finally “come around” to wanting him again. Then, miraculously, she’d gotten pregnant (by him, confirmed) and they had their first kid without their ‘trying’ to. Within another 2 years, she carried their 2nd kid to term.

    Now here we are, about 5 years later, the sex goes back to drip-feed (blamed on her being a SaHM) and the exact same sexlessness characterizes their marriage again. Only now, he’s busting his ass harder than he’d ever done before to support her and 2 kids and he can’t get away as much as he or her would like for family stuff. He starts drinking because he’s lonely, goes out when he can, and she ‘forces’ him to sleep in the basement they have converted into a guest bedroom. It’s not looking good, but he does know me personally, and I’ll do my best to help him.

    The pattern here is also a similar schedule and series of motives that occurs during the Epiphany Phase. The Married Red Pill and Deadbedrooms Reddit subs are rife with husband’s stories that mirror my friend’s. Subjectively good sex prior to marriage, more adventurous, more experimental, imaginative (relative to how much sex a Beta guys was accustomed to), but once the ring goes on all motivation for genuine sexual urgency and desire vanish.

    That is until the need to have kids arises. There are a series of predictable events that characterize this phase for a woman married to a sexless Beta. It may be that he sacks up and threatens to walk if she doesn’t start making sex with him a priority (negotiating desire) and this initiates her procreation-sex drive. They make up, and for a time she turns the sex spigot back on just long enough to get pregnant – usually without his knowing, but possibly with his belief that he scared her with just enough dread to get her to ‘come around’ for him. Or, it may be that trying to have a kid is something they both tacitly agree upon and her upswing in sexual availability is something she necessarily initiates much for the same reason – an existential dread that she’ll be mid 30s and trying to recondition herself to be competitive in an SMP she’s been expired from for 5 or 6 years since marriage.

    Either way, the signs are such that a Beta guy, sexually frustrated with his sexless wife, believes her new-found sexual desires are genuine and somewhat permanent when she wants to become pregnant. Once she’s had the child, the sexlessness returns, only now she has a perfect social convention that convinces her she doesn’t want sex because she’s too tired from childcare and housework(rather than the real reason, her hindbrain Hypergamy knows he’s not an optimal male) – this then gets repurposed to blaming the guy for not doing enough around the house to relieve her stress and predispose her to wanting to have sex with him.

    This is really just another step in the plan that is women’s long term sexual strategy for this era.

  61. It’s no illusion, she doesn’t need the Beta for sex or provisioning. I see it with female PA’s, earning well single, marries husband, who earns well. A designer marriage. It’s a marriage of convienence, not provisioning either way. Yeah, she wins provisioning, I guess…but doesn’t really need it at just over 6 figures. He autolimits his sexual options, though.

    Therefore, why not hold out? Children aren’t even in the equation for her.

    For him? Well, he may be getting more sex, as a practical matter, even with the slow-drip sex of a marriage like that one than he would being single if he’s the typical AFC. Also, the higher you go up the socio-economic totem pole, the more social prestige you get from being married (and the less “acceptable” it is being a long-term unmarried person), so there’s that. That’s probably about 4 or 5 times as strong for women than it is for men, still, but it’s a factor for men once you get high enough on the totem pole in terms of respectability.

    SES has a lot to do with this in my observations in 20+ years of corporate America. I’ve been with the same place for most of that time, and so I’ve been able to observe the same people’s trajectories, in many cases, over about two decades. The women who are lower SES (think secretaries, assistants, lower level folks) generally, by the time they are in their mid 40s are either still single, divorced or on hub2 — these three outcomes outnumber substantially the people who are still on hub1. Keep in mind most of these are college educated but nothing higher than that. When you switch focus to the people who have professional degrees (lawyer, CPA, exec) it flips. Most of them are married to h1 or w1. A few of them are single, and a few of them are divorced and remarried, and a few of them are married to h2 or w2 (that last number goes up when you get past the early 50s). There really are different incentives and different life patterns depending on SES, in my observation. It has held true over the past couple of decades at least, observing a largeish group of people from their mid to late 20s to their mid to late 40s and early 50s. It seems that women with professional degrees are a bit more stable when they pick their BB (perhaps because there is both more bux and more prestige involved) than women without them.

  62. @anon

    A woman can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it even when he is actually paying her by the hour.

    More like he’s paying her to leave.

  63. @fleezer

    maybe if the hamster is running the show and she’s acting without knowing she’s acting….
    that means a woman has no true feelings. just feelz that dictate her behavior based on what she wants and needs at that moment. so is “desire sex” really indicative of desire like men process desire, or are we projecting onto them our desire when for her it’s really just “this is how I move when the hamster is happy”
    is a person without feelings really a person?
    if her programming really is that fucking cold and amoral, then red pill and game are the only reasonable path for men.

    The Hamster…no…it’s the cortex back-rationalizing decisions. What you call “the Hamster” is actually the hindbrain and it truly is programmed for normal women. The cortex of a woman is quite capable of being moral and having rapport.

    So, a woman’s hindbrain is cold and amoral, but her cortex is where she is most like a man. So, lots of contradictions. Got it?

  64. @ Bachelorocles

    Some great and thought provoking posts from yourself.

    I would like to respectfully disagree with your assertion, most of female manipulation is in the background and she’s unaware of it. I would posit a woman has to be aware of her manipulation or she couldn’t act on it, when it bears fruit.
    Imagine a woman was stringing a man along with the purpose of rejecting him when he eventually asks her out. She has to be aware of what she’s doing so, or otherwise she might say “yes” when the time comes.
    She has to be conscious of her deceit and the manifestation she hopes it will engender.

  65. All women have 2 sides. All of them, even my mom. It’s a feature, not a bug.

    Side #1 is a loving, caring side. It’s often heavily maternal in nature, and when it’s focused on a man, it is highly desirous. Sex is just one component of the desire under these circumstances. The woman will have a strong desire to please in multiple ways, and she will go about the task of pleasing with a sense of happiness and purpose.

    The man will not need to instruct her in how to do this, yet the woman will be open to any instruction given her. She will see the instruction as a learning opportunity, and will use it to assist her in an ability to intuit how to please the man in the future.

    Side #2 is something very different. This side is the cold, uncaring and mean spirited side. When a woman has gone to this dark side, she will do unthinkable things, but these unthinkables are usually the things that her target/man will imagine as unthinkable in the first place. Under most circumstances, she can’t physically beat the hell out of you or seriously verbally threaten your safety, so in her weakness she will find other ways to hurt and destroy you. The woman that is best at this is the one who has been close enough to you long enough to figure out what will really fuck you up.

    When women choose side #2, it is ” justified ” as their only viable option since usually physicality is a non starter.

    If one spends enough time in the company of women that one is not sexually involved with, you will often hear these mental machinations discussed. Not long ago I heard a woman talking to her friends, and she was regaling about how she chastised her husband for his porn usage. She told the crowd of females that she yelled that her husband was a pervert and was sick and disgusting – all with a broad smile on her face. She explained that she’d use the behavior as yet another reason not to have sex with him, at the same time forbidding him access to any kind of release sexually. Then she announced that the man was a sexual dud in the sack anyway, and that he should ” Change his name to Santa, because he will only come once a year “.

    Both sides of this behavior are options for all women. The devil lies in the details.

    At this point in American society, the scales are weighed heavily in women’s favor with respect to side #2. Think back a few decades ago to a television show that featured a woman setting her husband’s bed on fire as he slept in it. The point is not whether the action was somehow ” justified “, but the tacit approval shouted from the rafters in praise of the show. Since then we have been deluged with countless movies and television shows about how a woman ” doesn’t have to take it anymore “.

    So if your wife won’t fuck you, well… it’s her body and her right. And if you ” force ” yourself on her in your marital bed in any manner, you may very well find a rape charge waiting in your future. And if you get angry and lose your temper at the bullshit going on in your home, be sure you only use flowery language and soft tones lest you get charged with being verbally abusive and find yourself at best, asked to leave your domicile by the officers of law enforcement, or at worst, charged with domestic abuse, where you will be escorted from said domicile by said officers, and have to stand tall before a magistrate.

    So here’s the Pop Quiz: Where is the disincentive for a woman exercising Side #2?

    Okay, that’s the downside. Now for some ( slightly ) better news.

    All woman have the ability to choose either side #1, or side #2, but most will fall somewhere in the middle, with a majority leaning more towards side #1 than side #2. It is society at large/ The FI that is training women to lean more towards the #2 side, but for many women this doesn’t truly sit right in their heads. Biology – it’s what’s for breakfast.

    Now as a man, understand the popular operating notion that all of this craziness is your fault . Somehow, some way, you have fucked up women. Lol. Hence, you cannot be trusted. You are a fake ( most likely ) and a charlatan that must be tested and tested and tested again. In your confusion at all of this fuckery, if you decide to just become agreeable and pliable, you will be hated and punished by whatever means a woman can use against you.

    There is nothing a woman can ask for from a man that will ultimately make her ” happy “. That shit is just white noise in the background. The beatings will continue until morale improves, and all that.

    So if a guy really wants an LTR or ( gasp!!!!) a marriage under these circumstances, what on earth shall he do?

    Rule 1: You are the only thing that matters.

    Rule 2: The only thing that matters is you.

    The long con that society is playing out right now puts 100% of the focus on the female/princess. Personally, I hope a giant sink hole swallows Disney World whole, but short of that happening, men have to take back their minds first.

    We often speak of Shit Tests here and elsewhere in the sphere. Men need to remember how to shit test women, for lack of a better descriptor. Constantly test her to make sure she is still aware of who’s boss. Hone your discerning abilities. One of the best ways to assist in honing your discerning capabilities, is to bang a lot of chicks with no commitment past a movie of a dinner. Refuse being ” wooed “. Fleezer laid out some golden stuff above. Heed that shit. Your job is to get extremely comfortable with pussy. Take away the magical mysticism from snatch, and you can think more clearly and as a byproduct, discern what the fuck is really going on around you. Always remember that your dick and your stomach might be used against you. Build up a tolerance. Never be overly appreciative. Ladle that stuff out sparingly.

    Our built in attraction to certain aspects of femininity betray us in most situations. Learn to keep looking past these things. What you will find happening is that there are zero HB10’s anymore. There will only be what you like. See Rule 1.

    It’s like climbing a mountain. First it’s a huge, gigantic and imposing obstacle. Then you summit it a few times, and it’s just a mountain. After a while you rebuild your appreciation for it from another perspective and instead of being imposing, it’s just a fucking awesome mountain. Full stop.

    Marriage is not something that is highly advisable in the current day and age. There will be some of us, maybe a shitload, that are just bound to head off in that direction. Think of it like this here, your marriage license requires 10 years of study and a minimum notch count of 20-30. You’ll need a few courses in evo-psych, finances and woodworking…. I like woodworking, so sue me. And you need to always, ALWAYS understand that awalt. It all goes back to Rule 1 & 2, you matter. Are you up to the task? Got the requisite skills? Read through enough disaster stories and cautionary tales and think you got The Right Stuff? Lol. Say your girls is 75% side 1, and 25% side 2. Do you know how to keep that side 2 nonsense in check? After notching 20-30 chicks you’ll have a good start, as long as you pay attention in class.

    And it’s mandatory that you pour a snifter of Brandy and down a big, fat red pill.

    Gentlemen the fucking lunatics are running the asylum. The good thing is that they are lunatics at the end of the day. Their numbers are scary and huge. Everywhere you look, you see some lunatic bullshit happening. But aside from all that sound and fury, they are still lunatics. Eventually their quest for MOAR!!! will start to burn itself out, as long as there’s something there to take it’s place. Something real. Something better. Our job tapping away in comment sections in the sphere is to encourage our fellow men to develop something better, something real. And the best part is that all of us came pre-loaded with the software installed from birth.

  66. lol…. I post a couple of times a week only, and Rollo puts up a new OP as soon as I try to actually say something. Lmao…. Well, off to the new OP.

  67. “So, a woman’s hindbrain is cold and amoral, but her cortex is where she is most like a man. So, lots of contradictions. Got it?”

    I got nuthin. “I have these memories of my life…. none of them happened.” I know this means the matrix cannot tell me who I am, but shit…

    I love plowing girls. laughing with them. playing. having fun. it’s all bullshit. no matter what I do I’m just a dancing monkey for their long term strategy. even when things seemed so spontaneous, same day lays, crazy fucking out of nowhere, no strings sex… it was all part of their plan. they all have a fucking plan. and if I decide to take out my frustration on their asses doggystyle, they like it even more. they actually like being pumped and dumped. it’s impossible to degrade them more than they degrade themselves. I can’t cross boundaries if they don’t exist. I can’t discover new land that isn’t there. I can’t break what’s already broken by design.

    I miss my friends. I miss the way they were before they got married and went totally beta. I was out playing golf with my friend and on the sixth hole his bitch wife strorms onto the course. she was playing with the kids at a park nearby. she told him she was ready to leave and he fucking left the game and went with her. this guy used to crush pussy and now he can’t even play nine holes of golf in peace.

    part of me wishes I could go back and unlearn all this shit and just go at it like I used to, from the gut. I’ve got more control of my game than ever, but that took away all the romance for me. I liked the idea of “getting lucky”. now it’s just applying the formula, adjusting for variables and pushing to close. I don’t feel lucky anymore. I feel fucking sick. every set goes the same way. ignore the target and she jumps in after three minutes. she can’t help herself. neo felt enlightened when he saw the code. I feel sad. all my best early illegal lays weren’t special. those girls just wanted what I had. I wasn’t scoring. I was serving. my pickups now don’t mean shit. is it really sales if she’s on the lot ready to buy? worse than that I’m not the salesman but the product. my mom only loves me because she sees herself in me. my dog only loved me because I fed him. my wife can’t love me because she’s a woman. my friends can’t love me because their wives won’t let them. is this what it means to grow up and be a man? knowing that no one really loves you and still getting up and doing it anyway?

    all you old guys are tough motherfuckers. I admire you all. and yeah, I know I’m a pussy. I’ll drink some mezcal, fuck something and feel better like always. to life… fuck it.

  68. @ fleezer

    You will be just fine brother.

    Life is like the machine you get hooked up to if you wind up in ICU at the hospital. The one that monitors your heartbeat and pulse and shit.

    As long as that line is going Up and then Down, you’re good. You’re alive. Up….and…Down.

    When that fucker flatlines, no more ups and downs, …well, cancel Christmas.

    The past is the past, except for the good feels we can remember. The feels are real, the details are less important. I can recall a bunch of shit that I really, really shouldn’t have done, but I also recall the thrill and great feels from doing it. Don’t waste time dwelling on the negative, emphasize the positive.

    Peace!!!

  69. @ollieoxenfree1

    I think female manipulation is difficult, really difficult to grasp and I struggle to understand it and place it within the framework of female psychology. The subject to my knowledge has never really been studied in depth. Imagine trying to publish a book on female manipulation?

    Right now, I believe it operates in the background most of the time like breathing or in the same way we all respond without thinking to the nonverbal gestures of others. I think most of the time women manipulate without trying. They do it effortlessly. We are all capable of consciously manipulating, but there seems to be something unique about women in that they do it all the time without trying. But few will admit to it.

    It is almost as if a woman has two minds. The first communicates with the second and instructs it what to do but she isn’t aware of what the first tells the second. The first will tell the second to lie, the second will tell the woman the lie and she will believe the lie. The rationalization hamster.

    On the other hand, we all have met women who spill the beans on women and tell us how manipulative they are, which suggests they are aware of it. I know a lawyer to wants women on his jury when he needs to prove a female witness is either lying or being deceptive because, as they say, women don’t trust women, which suggests they are aware of it.

    When it comes to hooking (pun intended) a provisioning mate, I think her manipulative programming is deeply embedded with and works to further her urgent biological drive to reproduce and provide for herself and her offspring.

    The more I think about female manipulation, the more I become aware of it. Two sentences into an argument, women go rogue, abandon reason and logic and effortlessly tell a thousand little lies and half truths. When I was a young man I would try to argue with them using reason, fairness, and logic and I would find myself in these exhausting, tortuous arguments. Then one day I read a comment in the manosphere which said, “if her argument is irrational or illogical she is trying to manipulate you.” An an ah ha moment. I finally realized when a woman goes rogue in an argument, she is not trying to make sense, understand you, or be fair. She is trying to manipulate to get her way.

  70. “if her argument is irrational or illogical she is trying to manipulate you.”

    Bruce Jenner is a woman.
    Racially segregated safespaces are anti-racist.
    And war is peace, Brother.

  71. “Two sentences into an argument, women go rogue, abandon reason and logic and effortlessly tell a thousand little lies and half truths. When I was a young man I would try to argue with them using reason, fairness, and logic and I would find myself in these exhausting, tortuous arguments. Then one day I read a comment in the manosphere which said, “if her argument is irrational or illogical she is trying to manipulate you.” An an ah ha moment. I finally realized when a woman goes rogue in an argument, she is not trying to make sense, understand you, or be fair. She is trying to manipulate to get her way.

    Yep.

    The method is to get you as a logical man to come down to her level as an emotional women and then say: “See, I Knew It. You are an emotional illogical little man”. I have contempt for you.
    Women don’t lie, they swim in their battering, frothy ocean of their emotions. That is them and their way. They are cats not dogs. If you let them they will have you pursue exhausting and tortuous arguments. That is their end game. Don’t allow that.

    Witness:

    https://illimitablemen.com/2014/03/09/how-women-argue/

  72. Blaximus
    All women have 2 sides. All of them, even my mom. It’s a feature, not a bug.

    Can confirm. Used to be women were taught men have at least 2 sides also.

  73. @ fleezer

    Profound thoughts. I feel the same way although I never had the competence in pickup. I keep feeling, Is this where I want to go? Who I want to be?. It is truly sad

  74. Fleezer

    so women can fake desire well enough for a guy to buy it?

    A guy who thinks like a dog, yes. This is the guy who thinks it is all about him, which is just a form of validation seeking. A guy that is his own MPoO will enjoy the sex, but not delude himself into thinking he is “the one” bringing this about.

    that means a woman has no true feelings. just feelz that dictate her behavior based on what she wants and needs at that moment.

    Feelz are realz… they are her only reality, therefore she is quite “believable” in her actions. See Rollo’s story about his friend above. Her “desire” was real… for her purpose – i.e. Child. But it was real in the time and place. His error is thinking she was “coming around to him”.

    no matter what I do I’m just a dancing monkey for their long term strategy. even when things seemed so spontaneous, same day lays, crazy fucking out of nowhere, no strings sex… it was all part of their plan. they all have a fucking plan. and if I decide to take out my frustration on their asses doggystyle, they like it even more. they actually like being pumped and dumped. it’s impossible to degrade them more than they degrade themselves. I can’t cross boundaries if they don’t exist. I can’t discover new land that isn’t there. I can’t break what’s already broken by design.

    This is correct but wrapped in some “dog thinking”… You can’t really “beat” hypergamy and AF/BB. And perhaps this is a net benefit to society. What would the world look like with 100% Alphas pumping and dumping 24/7… Camden?

    ‘Degrade” is purely a dog concept, like love, trust, honor, reason etc. This is Madonna/Whore in the background… there is no Madonna or Whore… cats just are cats.

    DisgruntledEarthling / Fleezer / Blax

    I keep feeling, Is this where I want to go? Who I want to be?. It is truly sad

    Well let me say you can almost beat hypergamy and AF/BB by not playing the game… not as MGTOW isolation and celibacy but via the Platinum Rule [Do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it] and pursing a Dynamic, Passionate and Authentic life. Only this will result in your firmly being your own MPoO and in a fulfilling life – enjoying women along the way in the way they were meant to be, as playthings, helpmates and breeders.

  75. @Bachelorocles

    Are you assuming morality on the part of women’s conscious manipulation? If a woman were in two minds she could rationalise, away, her culpability as you theorised.
    My problem is, why does she have to have two minds? If hypergamy is amoral why can’t the manipulation needed to serve it, be also?
    Any sense of shame or guilt wouldn’t arise and therefore require a process to hide her duplicity from herself.

    It’s a bit like man feeling uneasy about using a computer because he’s managed to manipulate electrons to create binary code and use this for his own purpose. A woman, when all is said and done, sees us no differently.

    I think we would like them to see us as flesh and blood and this factors into our analysis of their behaviour.

    p.s. please excuse this latest post on the topic. My blue pill self use to hold the argument you espouse and since that part of me hasn’t completely vanished (ghosts in the machine), I would like the opportunity to dissuade myself of this notion. As well as lend weight to the half of you that believes women are conscious of their machinations.

  76. @Yep

    “The method is to get you as a logical man to come down to her level as an emotional women and then say”

    I also think they do it to exhaust us and beat the fuck out of us psychologically. In their short game, I see them doing it to to test us and get their way. But in their long game I think it is to exhaust us. A relationship with a woman can wear a man down to a drooling nub. I speak from experience.

    @ollieoxenfree1

    I don’t think a woman must have two minds. I came up with that metaphor to try to explain how it seems women are so unaware of their motives. Or they could just be really good at lying.

    I agree that the manipulation which serves hypergamy is probably amoral.

    “Any sense of shame or guilt wouldn’t arise and therefore require a process to hide her duplicity from herself.”

    Well said. Very well said.

    “It’s a bit like man feeling uneasy about using a computer because he’s managed to manipulate electrons to create binary code and use this for his own purpose. A woman, when all is said and done, sees us no differently.”

    I think women do genuinely love their son and brothers. I think they love alphas. But they seem to be all business when they deal with betas. If a beta loses his job or money, he’s on a time-clock before she falls out of “love.”

  77. Deti’s taxonomy is what I see as most central here: She wants to fuck you, great, She doesn’t want to fuck you, OK. But if she’s merely “willing” to fuck you, maybe you don’t want to be that guy. Please take a moment to locate the nearest exit. Don’t be anywhere near the O.K. Corral at 5 o’clock.

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