About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was right around the same week I published Alpha Agents of Righteous Karma and, coming from a fairly attractive woman, it highlighted many of the points I’d made in that post.
Commenter myreality asked me:
To what extent, if at all, do you think that validation hunting is part of male preference for large age differences when a man is in his late 30’s and beyond? It is definitely not 0%…
I think this is presuming a truth that isn’t.
The idea that men “seek validation” for their earned status or to ‘right’ past wrongs to their egos while they were working their way to that status is a social convention. The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.
When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.
Have a look at my Sexual Market Value Graph. (click to enlarge)
Although I’ve gone into explaining the loose metrics I’ve based this graph on several occasions, I’ve added some arrows here to illustrate a point that often gets missed or simply blown over because the truths it represents aren’t very flattering. Women would rather men not be aware of their own SMV potential prior to women being able to consolidate upon her sexual strategy.
Popular culture never presumes women are ‘validation hunting’ when they’re enjoying their peak SMV potential at 23 and (by order of degree) indulging that opportunity with men while at their peak. Women are acculturated to feel “empowered” by their sexuality, and really, no guy who wants to bang a hot 23 year old woman is ever going to rebuke her for it, much less develop social conventions to limit their odds of doing so.
However, men enjoying peak SMV in their mid to late 30’s are (by default) presumed to be vindicating themselves and validating their “fragile egos” by dating the younger (and in Jenny Bahn’s case an SMV peaked 23 year old no less) women they naturally find more attractive.
If there is any ‘validation’ for SMV peaked men it’s less about the sense of deserving a hot piece of ass or vindication for the women of his peer age who found him sexually invisible until he hit his peak, and more about validation in a new self-awareness that he finally is in a position of choosing and qualifying women for his intimacy rather than being filtered for his own acceptability for so long.
It’s not about turnabout or fair play now that the sexual selection shoe is on the other foot, but simple deductive pragmatism for a man who is aware of his own SMV and, assuming he’s hasn’t hamstrung his ability to maneuver, wants to exercise that value at (presumedly) the top of his game.
It’s not (usually) that he’s made a conscious effort to make himself an Alpha Agent of Righteous Karma, but that he steps into that role by default when the SMV balance shifts to his favor, and he naturally prefers sexual access to the best physical, and most sexually available woman his newly recognized SMV will afford him. That may not be a 23 year old coed, but it might be with a necessitous 29 year old looking for a solution to her long term investment.
About Those Arrows
One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation.
Critics who like to presume that this attraction is only based on looks, prowess and virility often don’t take this attraction prioritization into account. Obviously a more youthful man is in better physical shape when he’s younger, and if all we were considering was short term mating prospects and the Alpha Fuck side of feminine hypergamy this graph would look much different. However, once a woman has reached 30 (thank you Ms. Bahn) those attraction (not arousal) priorities look much different.
The primary reason I placed men’s peak SMV in his mid to late thirties is because, if he’s made the most of his potential, this is when he is most likely to have established himself in his status, affluence and achievements while (if he’s maintained himself) still retaining the looks of a more mature man.
It’s exactly women’s sexual prioritization at their most necessitous which puts men at the top of their SMV game. As I’ve detailed in many prior posts, hypergamy wants optimization (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks). Women’s pluralistic sexual strategy is optimized when a woman can consolidate a monogamous commitment from a man who can deliver a better genetic benefit and a better personal (providership) investment than her own SMV should realistically be able to warrant her.
In general, at no other point in a man’s life does he possess the a better potential to optimize women’s innate hypergamy.
If you follow the pink arrow, from about women’s 30th year that established SMV peaked man has the best potential to satisfy both aspects of the dualistic nature of hypergamy. It’s important to consider that when a woman reaches her 30s her sexual prioritization is affected by her own capacity to attract and hold male attention. What happens is a sort of subconscious establishing operation – as her capacity to attract becomes diminished, and as the next generation of SMV peaked women comes into their own, the urgency to cash out of the sexual market place increases.
So it’s not that the expectation should be one of 23 year old women wanting to get after it with 38 year old men (though this is exactly the scenario in Jenny Bahn’s story), but rather that 38 year old men increase exponentially in value to 30 year old women at a time when what he possess is what she needs the most.
Back in May a data set was released on Twitter from OKCupid founder Christian Rudder is his book Dataclysm: Who We Are (When We Think No One’s Looking). It’s a fascinating read actually and reinforces much of what I speculate about with regard to my own SMV graph.
It’s important to remember that this data is based primarily on looks, but it illustrates the point of my adding the blue arrow to the graph. Men’s arousal and attraction triggers are virtually static. While men’s attraction value variates for women, it is a locked value for women.
While in her SMV peak – as we can see averaged her to around 22 – women enjoy the benefit of having the most sexual selectivity of their lives. However, the power of this selectivity declines as she ages and is further stressed by sexual competition as she does. And while men compete for sexual access to women, the sexual market value of the woman being competed for is still rooted in her capacity to attract attention and arouse men.
When in her SMV peak years, women’s preferences and sexual strategy supersede those of the men who would compete for her, however as she moves towards maturity, and as men ascend to their own SMV peak, a man’s preferences gradually take precedence over women’s.
Jenny Bahn, a reasonably attractive (former model) woman provides us with an excellent example of this transition.
Alex is 38. I’m 30. Technically, there are no “people our age.” But I’m starting to feel that a 30-year-old woman might as well be a 40-year-old man, though infinitely less desirable, culturally speaking.
At 40, a man is well into hitting his stride, something the guy I’m arguing with is all too aware of, as evidenced when he professes on multiple occasions, “I’m an amazing guy.” “We’re killing it. KILLING IT,” he tells me, while explaining that he’s been caught up in his rapidly expanding architecture firm.
[…]A 30-year-old woman is an undertaking, and it’s the real reason Alex has been putting me on the back burner for the past two months, telling me that I’m amazing and that he’s interested and then disappearing to hang out with a 23-year-old instead. Age ain’t nothing but a number, until it’s a number someone else doesn’t want to deal with.
As I mentioned in The Threat:
Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.
Jenny, like most women in their Epiphany Phase, is now coming to terms with the transition of sexual selection power from what she once no doubt enjoyed to a man who’s made the most of his maturity and potential she wants to consolidate on in long term monogamy.
Jenny has a rare honesty and insight to recognize this, but naturally the ‘validation’ social convention is there to assuage her predicament. Even in her self-acceptance of her situation Alex is colored with an uncooperative attitude. His perspective is ‘incorrect’ in a fem-centric social order. If he were really ‘mature’ he would be dating and marrying Jenny (a victim of her own past decisions) instead of seeking ‘validation’ with a 23 year old hottie.
The presumption of Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old makes men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order. A mature, established man shouldn’t want to date women in their 20s, he should cooperate with the Feminine Imperative and validate Jenny’s sexual strategy by becoming monogamous with her.
What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny; women who delayed capitalizing on their SMV peak and now, at 30, find themselves on the necessitous side of that sexual selectivity.
Rollo, you create many of the illustrations that head your articles from scratch, correct?
These feel good stories of bitter women getting a taste of what they dished out for so long never get old. NEVER GET OLD.
We’re killing it! lol
poor hamster. 🙂
The main reason 30s men date 20s women might not be validation, but don’t tell me passive revenge doesn’t taste sweet to a man who was lonely in his 20s.
Such delicious schadenfreude. Alex would have been sexually invisible to Jenny ten years ago when she was banging up and down runways and getting paid big dollars for photo shoots, and I have no doubt she broke the hearts of many a man who was attracted to her but didn’t pass muster. Nice dig in the article that assumes that men in their later years are looking to settle down after decades of fooling around but the truth is that men start “fooling around” after decades of being brutalized seeking “the ONE.” Until Jenny faces the fact that the reason… Read more »
The main reason 30s men date 20s women?
Because they can.
Rollo, you briefly mention how different an Alpha Fucks graph would look. I can say that whenever I see this graph of yours two thoughts have always leapt into my mind. 1. Being desired by a 30 year old woman is essentially worthless compared to being desired by a 20 year old 2. Most of us here have become aware that Beta Bucks is a fool’s game. This graph stands as an excellent example of the terrain that an AFC is pitiably oblivious to, but for those of us who “ain’t fattenin’ no more frogs for snakes”, an Alpha Fucks… Read more »
When the male birth control comes out in 2017 women are going to be in for a rude awakening. No more waiting till the 11th hour to cash in on her lifetime meal ticket. Men around 35 are going to have tremendous power to pump and dump because women are going to be burned left and right by men using up there last few years while spitting blanks. Lol.
Another meme brought up by mid 30s women concerning men around their peak being with women at their peak is what would a mid 30s man talk about with a young 20s woman.
Well, you can ask the mid 30s woman if she wants to talk about this subject.
Water Fridge, keep in good shape and good muscle tone. If your hair doesn’t gray or thin too much, or if you look good with a shaved head. You still got plenty of time. One point Rollo made in another post is that as you get older, don’t try to youth yourself by trying to fit in, or appeal to a younger age group. Can’t remember how he described it, but the gist was keep a youthful vibe by taking care of yourself physically, and also in attitude(no grumpy guy who complains a lot) but not to the point you… Read more »
Yeah, I’m ripped and look young enough that I keep getting carded when I take the young ones to hookah bars. Thanks to a life time of avoiding sugar, getting lots of water, vitamin-c and of course good ol Satan :-P.
Still, hard to escape the idea that I’m getting away with something unrealistic that surely won’t last.
After being on The Pill for almost a year, most things do not make me rage. A few do. Rollo should be eternally praised for uncovering this second layer of the Matrix. This layer is the fact that society/women has written our whole frame of thinking to be gynocentric. Like a virus, it has written itself into the DNA of our own decision process. For instance, there is this belief that “men should mature and settle down” as they age. And I say: why the fuck should we? What if I did the opposite: had a kid at age 15… Read more »
It’s infuriating to discover, that the enemy is inside your own head, put there Inception-style through cultural programming and even your own altruistic-to-the-opposite-sex DNA. You thought that you had a male life strategy, but its hidden axioms have been put there to make you a convenient utility to women’s life strategy.
While Rollo states: One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation. He is correct that it doesn’t necessarily happen. However the reality is that it does sometimes happen. It happened… Read more »
Rollo – what would be your take on a man SMV peak if he is interested mainly in Alpha fucks and has started learning Game formally in his early 20s? Since the prime attraction group among all guys are 18-23 year old girls, are we right to assume that a man with Game might peak in his end 20/early 30s due to his massive attraction as Alpha-fucks especially among women in their prime? Currently the experiences of young PUAs who are in their end 20s substantiate that assumption. Even the Ok-cupid graph somewhat supports that Alpha-fucks-with-Game-peak around 28 and 32… Read more »
Another spot on article. Part of the “Sex in the City” philosophy was the brainwashing that women get better as they grow older. It was played out in the series that women should have their careers and it was no trouble finding a man (younger) later in life. But this idea never made sense…..and hopefully more men are waking up to the fact that they’ve been duped (and it’s nonsense). Older women don’t carry the same SMV as older men. Women had their time (high SMV) when they were young and many are angry that the time has passed.
As Rollo notes, the current FI zeitgeist asserts that female sexual impulses are to be celebrated as ’empowering.’ On top of that, many women who coupled up 10 or 15 or 20 years ago never rode the sexy train, and thus they both feel cheated *and* politically justified (“empowered”) to run around. (This summary resembles my ex-wife pretty well.) So it’s eye-opening to interact with married women now, not as “married women” (i.e., demonstrating some respect for their apparent monogamy), but simply as women, as sexual beings. There are some desperate women out there. I had no idea. I’m sure… Read more »
Regarding the male birth control pill … let’s just say I’m not going to be the first to try it.
I wonder what the removal of age-of-consent laws would do to that first OKCupid chart.
BuenaVista, yes to everything you just said.
I had a sinking feeling you may say that
Isn’t Jenny a “Strong, Independent Woman™”? She doesn’t need a man to have a family, right? She can do it all on her own, no problem. Good luck Jenny, and make very good friends with your vibrator. It won’t be too long before that’s all you’ll have left – memories and masturbation, lol. It couldn’t happen to a nicer girl.
Why do you think girls have Sweet 16 parties instead of Sweet 20 parties?
@emma, it isn’t passive revenge. The closest it comes to “revenge” is active Dread, e.g. “What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny” When a man who has been waiting, and waiting and waiting, in line to get to the buffet table, when he finally gets to start loading his plate with all the goodies, it’s NOT to… Read more »
I agree with Buena Vista, and will highlight the points: 1) “interact with married women now, not as “married women” (i.e., demonstrating some respect for their apparent monogamy), but simply as women, as sexual beings” Women respond sexually to being treated sexually. 2) “Don’t light any matches unless you’re ready for combustion. The flash point is just about room temperature.” It’s a lot lot lot easier than you think, if you’ve never really tried. 3) “there will be interest by young women in you for a long, long time. I’m a *lot* older than you are, and I was hit… Read more »
JF12, your #5 presents a non-trivial quandary, often. Because one may have a choice between communication and companionship with someone, and imposing hazard (moral or physical) on her or oneself. Anyway, it’s a robust insight, I believe (the whole of female availability, regardless of social constraints), but also a fairly bleak one. It is hard o grasp (for me) how ruthless hypergamy is. None of us, over time, exists in perfect physical utility. The very qualities that signal value to a woman (e.g., risk-taking, dangerous work, testing against other men) can leave us with a convalescence now and again. And… Read more »
I would add that when I say I simply interact with women as sexual beings, I simply treat them like I used to treat female staff: as professional colleagues, as peers, matter of factly. I’m not lobbing PUA grenades. The young girl I was talking to over the weekend is a newspaper reporter. I’m in the deep country, and kids like that will moonlight as bartenders just to hang out for free. I know her editor, I worked for papers, my dad was an editor. So we just shot the shit with none of the social framing (e.g., I didn’t… Read more »
@BV, some folks may not believe Jennifer Lawrence when she says she’s had the dripping hots for Larry David. Suspending disbelief however, he’s clearly a vigorous i.e. nonconvalescing man. His shtick is primarily hyperactive dork who is willing to be immoral. I’m saying it isn’t his hyperactivity or dorkiness, or devastating wit that works, but the employ of those traits in presenting himself as willing to go “there”, in full view of God and everybody, that (some) young women *will* find dripping hot.
“I’m an amazing guy” “We’re Killing it” Haha love this dude!
Just read the “30 is the new 50” article. Good grief… “It’s this logic that has most of my 30-something guy friends dating girls fresh out of college. Girls who, in my experience, are less impressive, less striving, less volatile, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less complex, less damaged, less opinionated, less powerful, less womanly. They are less, and, to a guy not ready for anything—like most of the guys I have dated in New York—less is more.” Allow me to parse: It’s been said before, but to reiterate, men just simply don’t care about “striving”, “successful”,… Read more »
It has been mentioned that popular love songs are typically written by men. I found this curious and spent some weeks carefully researching song titles I’m familiar with to determine specifically who wrote them. Overwhelmingly most love songs sung by men or women are written by men. Women are more than happy to sing the songs written by men that stimulate and entertain men. Confirmation of this fact lead me to research love songs written by women to see what they write and perhaps gain a better understanding of what females experience and want. “Fidelity” written by the female artist… Read more »
JF12, in respect of your Larry David comment, a recent event that contributes to my conviction that — for half of the female population, a cohort that changes and shifts over time, incidentally — there are no barriers to hypergamous sexual ambition. I mean, zero. It’s a free-fire zone. We are the targets. For five years I’ve had a friend, married, whom I regard as probably the most attractive ‘mature’ woman within 100 miles. Obviously YMMV, but as far as I am concerned, she is as beautiful as my ex-, and my ex- and her mom both modeled for Vogue.… Read more »
@Thoroughbred, when I first read the article I really wanted to give Jenny the benefit of the doubt, but for all her personal admissions and insight she still defaults to the social convention narratives of the Feminine Imperative. Even after being a model in her 20s, she still clings to the narrative she was taught by the F.I., that men should be attracted to her experience, success, volatility (?), ambition and complexity. She then goes on to shame men for preferring younger women who represent less impressiveness, less striving, less volatility, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less… Read more »
@BV re: “for half of the female population, a cohort that changes and shifts over time, incidentally — there are no barriers”
Yes, besides monthly and seasonal shifts, the cohort changes after the typical few years max of the honeymoon period.
This is an important point against women who cry that “Game only works on sluts!”, as if that scurrilious designation limits anything. And against women arguing like Siirtyrion and HUS “Game only works on genetically deficient sluts!”
Game is behavior, specifically sexual behavior, specifically competently behaving with sexual intent. No, it isn’t a circular definition, no it isn’t just a sexual “component”, no it isn’t “a branch of Nolij”.
From experience game actually works LESS on “sluts”.
Oops, I meant “Nollij”.
If she is ready for you to get down to business (they all are on some level most of the time) and you are concerned with game too much, she will either think you are “clueless” or you are “chicken”. In either case, she will loose desire.
A woman emailed this to me:
Rollo, I wonder about the difference in SMV and MMV (marriage market value). The percentage of men who marry women more than 8 years younger than them is low; less than 8%. When you go above 15 years it gets even lower. Yes men can have sex and short term flings with younger women, but if you want to marry them you had better be elite or the percentages are against you. The majority of marriages are within 4 years age difference. My point, I think that your SMV graph would look different if it just measured MMV. This may… Read more »
One element about the SMV graph that I think gets lost on people is how the Feminine Imperative’s social conventions fluidly accommodate for “appropriateness” of relationships according to the phase of life a woman finds herself in. For instance, there’s far less “stigma” for a 40 year old man dating a 30 year old woman, than a 33 year old man dating a 23 year old woman. It’s still a difference of 10 years, but why is the former acceptable and the latter a perversion? Because the 30 year old is in a more precarious, necessitous phase of her life.… Read more »
Is the graph an expression of strictly SMV, and do you think marriage statistics would produce similar results if the feminine imperative was not an influence?
“The appropriate age for marriage is around eighteen for girls and thirty-seven for men.” – Aristotle
I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but I think it’s safe to presume the FI looked much different in 350 BC.
I am going with Aristotles here too. The Marriage Market Value is actually more extreme than the pure short-term mating market value – especially with the highly coveted 18-23 demographic among Players. The difficulty is not to in finding a young girl who is sexually attracted to a man 20 years older, but one who wants to settle down in her prime. This becomes quickly clear when guys travel or move to countries like Ukraine or SEA and an unmarried girl by age 24 is already getting a bit frantic and would like to settle down fast. Also in those… Read more »
The statement: “Successful (competent) sexual behavior (Game) is successful” is an example of circular reasoning.
If Game works as universally as you claim, you should be able to prove it with all women, most importantly with those who maintain that it does not work.
Such proof would require well-documented evidence of Game’s efficacy, verified and subjected to critique by independent observers to control for perception and other biases.
Absent such evidence, the claim “Game works” has as much truth to it as other faith-based, wishful thinking statements (e.g., God exists; unicorns are soft).
Would you agree with Aristotle when you were 18?
I would have wanted to cut his balls off
I’d love to see Jenny’s face when she reads this article, as I’m sure she will. Oh, and what some of the comments would do to her self-image …
Personally I have never felt anger towards a guy getting a girl, since I was able to get pretty girls too from age 19 on. And ever since I was 15 and worked in a few high-end hotels on summer jobs I realized that wealthy charismatic men were having always women 20 years younger than them. With some it was only wealth and with some it seemed to be real attraction. And as far as Jenny is concerned – she is likely still highly attractive. The best thing that she could do is to find that inner girl within her… Read more »
And one more for the people who claim game doesn’t work: At 52 I’ve just recently discovered red pill, pua, game, the manosphere … While I’m not spinning plates (yet), the knowledge I’ve gleamed form this site among others has helped me to get my LTR in order so as to satisfy ME – there will probably be a divorce somewhere down the road, but still, it is now far more satisfying than before I applied dread. I also get (and see) IOIs from girls in their 20’s and 30’s – what would confirm what the gentleman above stated. Work… Read more »
“For instance, there’s far less “stigma” for a 40 year old man dating a 30 year old woman, than a 33 year old man dating a 23 year old woman. It’s still a difference of 10 years, but why is the former acceptable and the latter a perversion? Because the 30 year old is in a more precarious, necessitous phase of her life. In a feminine-primary social order, the “appropriateness’ of any relationship defaults to a woman’s sexual strategy.” Scales just geek from my eyes. Because the 30 year old is in a more precarious, necessitous phase of her life.… Read more »
Jenny’s already read here:
I should mention, my intent with using Jenny as an example wasn’t meant to be a personal attack – rather a good illustration of what women confront when they arrive at their Epiphany Phase.
“Feminism lied to me, and men have a responsibility to make those lies come true. I had my fun, but now it looks like I might be facing consequences. Give up your day in the sun to save me from my own choices, and you’ll get this official F.I. badge of commendation and appropriateness.
Otherwise you are just a frightened man-boy who can’t handle my intimidating girl power.”
It is saying that goes like…”show me a man that is using and abusing women and I will show you a man who has been dating for a while. He has been learned well.” Thirty and something successfull bachelor does not fuck young hotties in a a hopeless search for the ONE. He fucks them to ENJOY young, nice body and sweet feminine energy. He uses his maturity, wisdom, resources and relative freedom/discipline to navigate SM to his satisfaction. I am one of them. I am 39 and “mature” – 30 and something women simply do not exist for me.… Read more »
The intellectual level of her following shows: “He lost me after the first chart”…
The sad thing about women like Jenny is how they rationalize away the only path out of their future misery, namely, recognizing the error of their ways, epiphany or not.
As for personal attack, the cruelty I’ve experienced from women all my life would be enough motivation to go postal, but instead, I do enjoy their company.
She should snuggle up to Robin Korth for the ultimate consolation.
This has been a great post Rollo, including the comments (which isn’t the case for many blogs). I’ll see if I can whip up a quick response in the next few days.
“Like yeah like thanks for the nice shout out, like what’s hypergamy and everything? That sounds like really like smart and everything….”
Apologies for the off-topic question, can anyone point me to a resource that address financial divorce defense?
I am currently happily married, however, I am not nearly foolish enough to believe that it will *definitely* last forever.
If that day comes, and we end up getting divorced, I would like to be in the best position that I can be in regard to keeping as much of the assets as possible.
I have been unable to find any info on this topic; although there is a TON of info for guys who are in the middle of a divorce.
“men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order.”
Haha, yup, that’s us ladies! However, do not mistake us for people who give a fuck. Reality, especially for women, is a bitter pill to swallow! This is going to increasingly become the norm. The femcentric order is about to be turned on it’s head…men, through the manosphere, are learning that, “There is no spoon!”
Thanks Rollo –
Watched Blue Valentine. I understand better what you are getting at. What a train wreck! In reality she is far too attractive to have settled for such a pathetic beta, it would probably never have really happened. As far as I can tell the only girls who spend that much time with such a total beta are far less good looking. But the movie does illustrate and clarify a lot. I’m glad I watched it after reading your book and from a better informed point of view. I wonder if the producers intended this?
@George, you should read the back story about Blue Valentine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Valentine_(film) It almost wasn’t made due to lack of funding. Also, Before filming the marriage dissolution between the main characters, Gosling and Williams prepared by renting a home, bringing their own clothing and belongings, buying groceries with a budget based on their characters’ incomes, filming home movies and taking a family portrait at a local Sears with the actress who played their daughter, and staging out arguments. Cianfrance visited the actors and assisted them in building tension while remaining in character: “One night he told Gosling to go into Williams’… Read more »
” I think it’s safe to presume the FI looked much different in 350 BC.” At that time in Egypt neither the state nor the religion (much the same thing) took any interest in marriage, it was strictly an arrangement between individuals. The FI held enough sway that virgin was not a concept in the culture and women could freely choose their husbands (although I’m sure family pressure played a role). Divorce could be initiated by women and was both easy and nonstigmatized. But, as life was hard, life was dominated by men performing hard labor who had the upper… Read more »
I’m 31 years old, and have been Red Pill for about 9 years now. It’s amazing at my current age to watch women in the same age bracket flail when they are presented with these SMV facts. A girl (27) I was seeing recently found this chart and asked me to explain it to her. I gave her a somewhat thorough explanation, and the look on her face was priceless. She literally could not handle what was being presented. I could see in her mannerisms that an epiphany had occurred….instant regret for her choices within the past decade, and looming… Read more »
re: “you should be able to prove it with all women”
Arguments by fiat don’t fly here. “All men should be able to pick up all women all the time” is a strawman, at best.
To the unenlightened, a pragmatist looks, from a distance, like engaging in circular logic “it works because it works.” The missing ingredient for the unenlightened, barring revelation, is empiricism.
Marriage in Aristotle’s time is not relevant to marriage in a culture that has gone through the industrial revolution and is now in a developed capitalist phase. Women had no options in those past eras and life was hard. Marriage was often about resources and survival. That is not the case now. I know biology hasn’t changed but the social environment has. Massive capital accumulation and wealth creation has changed societal relations beyond recognition to pre-industrial times. Nothing short of civilizational collapse will set things back (and that may happen given modern politics). My point remains though. For all those… Read more »
I fail to see the downside to this.
“So if you want to marry . . . ”
You should have a lie down until it goes away.
Rollo, Your analyses seem to end at age 50. Being older than 50 myself, and having dated women older than 50, I’m interested in observations and theory on mating behavior past the age of 50. Something I have observed is women older than 50 reverting to an AF strategy. Perhaps after menopause, the ‘biological alarm clock’ is no longer relevant. They often have provisioning on line at that age courtesy of exes, the State and a lifetime of resource accumulation with the result that BB is less compelling. I’m curious about a second epiphany and the resulting behaviors. I suspect… Read more »
This is just a suggestion. I read your blog a lot and there is a LOT of good material. It becomes a bit too much to take and confusing sometimes. I wonder if you would be able to create a type of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs for women when it comes to men? And pin down the core tenants of a woman’s psyche in a diagram format based off your own understanding. Summarizing the information in diagram format.
Like you did with the SMV chart.
@mickel, start here:
@Jacklabear Men after 50 still NEED sex. Women, however, enter menopause which eliminates any residual sex drive and causes a rapid masculinization of facial features. If you are married to a post menopausal woman, you’re supposed to go with the program by being a good grandpa: wear cardigan sweaters and baggy polyester double knit slacks, and dispense sweets to children. Sex is supposed to be as icky to you as it now is to her. The way out is to insist from the get-go that she treat her medical condition. She must take supplemental estrogen, buy the jumbo tube of… Read more »
George, music may have been written by mostly men, but you can see a definite change in the songs women were willing to sing. A song like Stronger Than Pride would probably not be done by a woman singer today. at least not by anybody that got any significant amount of radio time. Women and girls and even some men have always said that girls mature faster than boys. Even up to the teens and 20s, females are claimed to be more mature at a certain age. So it should be a good fit to follow what they say, until… Read more »
October 13th, 2014 at 8:15 pm
“Men after 50 still NEED sex. Women, however, enter menopause which eliminates any residual sex drive …”
That is a meme I have seen in the ‘sphere’ more than once, but it is counter to my experience. Every menopausal woman I have dated has been plenty horny, as well as more orgasmic than any younger woman I’ve sampled.
A menopausal woman is the perfect date: no period, no fertility, low drive to land a provider husband and no kids at home.
Not a meme. You’ve apparently been lucky to be with women who defy medical science and/or are great at faking it.
Nope bbb Jack is not defying medical science. Post menopausal women can be either hornier or lose libido or it has not effect and there are plenty of women in each group. It is quite the mystery.
@bbb From my experience I believe you are mistaken. I’m only one man, a pebble on the beach, but my experience is long enough and broad enough for me to trust the opposite of what you seem to think. Numerous older women have told me the same including my mother who passed at the age of 76, one of my grand mothers, a woman I’m close with currently who is 69, and various others. They all were or are more comfortable talking openly and honestly about the subject, maybe because they have nothing to lose. I’ve also often wondered if… Read more »
There is no confusion about why all men prefer early twenties ladies. It’s not 22 hotness that is better than 30. It’s the lack of 8 YEARS of baggage 22 has over the 30. Jenny said it… “less damaged”. This Jenny article is a primal scream of the realization that 8 years of female hypergamy DOES NOT yield more Marriage/Relationship value. ALL females NEED their sacrifice of time for knowledge and self fun (alpha fucks) to yield a better outcome. Imagine the former models realizing that Men never cared for anything more than attractiveness and innocence . AND that getting… Read more »
Just one thought to female hamster. We are saying here that the strategy of women is stupid. NOPE. It is the selecting process of evolution in work. It is everything but stupid. Every businessman knows that when he wants to make the best catch, he has to be in situation, in which he has more power and freedom like his opponent. It greatly helps when his opponent is under some pressure..and desperately needs to make this deal. In such a situation the businessman can obtain the best prize/quality ratio. Young men between puberty and early 30 are under hard influence… Read more »
While I would agree that female beauty tends to peak between 20 and 22, it has been my experience that a noticeable degree of their enchanting lighthearted mirth and excitement is already starting to change when compared to an 18 or 19 year old. There is a reality of emotional feedback, and while we all like to think that we bring a lot of unique things to dating/sex/love there is nothing so unique as that which is actually unique. If you’re a 9 in terms of game and sexual acumen and she’s young there’s a decent chance you’re the first… Read more »
s.r., 1:56 p.m.: “My point, I think that your SMV graph would look different if it just measured MMV. … The percentage of men who marry women more than 8 years younger than them is low; less than 8%.” Expressed married market value maybe, if we assume an efficient market. Alternatively, if we assume that the marriage market reflects rigging, (e.g., Rollo’s F.I. concept, which imposes conditions via male and female shaming) then we have to look at intrinsic MMV of those reflecting our point of view. For we have moved on from progressive feminist market rules, and really don’t… Read more »
“Women and girls and even some men have always said that girls mature faster than boys.” Waters my dear old thing,a good deal of cheap fun can be had by rephrasing that saggy, incontinent and annoying cliché and putting it to its regurgitators e.g. “Women stop developing much sooner than men. So do turtles. And cows.” The behaviour then forks into more-or-less intense but inevitably incoherent Indignation (thanks Rollo), or flappy goldfish open-mouthing if they’re bright enough to actually hear and understand what has just been said. The good thing is it’s clean and can be done in any company.… Read more »
s.r., 6:07, still celebrating the average and shaming (and misrepresenting) those on the right-hand side of the bell curve: “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side. Yes, you can fuck them to your hearts delight if your game is tight enough.” This makes complete sense if one believes that a bell curve distribution is destiny, that social convention is law, and that skeptical men (in respect of the SMP, female hypergamy, and credential-matching mating) are mere pleasure-seeking PUAs. It makes complete sense if all male behavior and achievement must regress to… Read more »
Here’s Jenny’s take on Gone Girl, which she terms “excellent” (I agree). She rifs, though, satirically on the life strategies of the sociopathic heroine. These insights form fun! ironic! suggestions for amazing! girls everywhere. Takeaways include: a. men are doofuses who can be manipulated into self-destruction through good sex, promises of good sex, archaic notions of patrimony and obligation to offspring, and divorce (should they suggest leaving Manhattan). b. always have a Plan B man, for those lane-changing moments. He’s the guy with lots of money who spends his life thinking a Gone Girl will eventually come around and give… Read more »
@BV re: “Thus my view is that Rollo’s graph understates the SMV ask-buy spread for men quite severely if it is adjusted for male utility, personal and social development, and physical fitness.”
I agree, again. I think Rollo was being overly fair to women, precisely to avoid (to an extent) accusations of overstating.
re: s.r.’s point that if “you want to marry that early 20s low N girl AND she is hot, your chances are small.”
Almost entirely, the reason your chances of snagging your own unicorn are so small is because unicorns are so rare. If the world were teeming with hot low N girls, you would have much better chances regardless of which side of the 80/20 of 92/8 curve you are on.
@Tam the Bammer, re: ““Women stop developing much sooner than men.”
This concept was actually some kind of ancient meme, although I do not have a plethora of Authorities’ coattails at hand to clutch. Even at work, since my 3 x 5s went the way of my physical Rolodex, my references to articles tend to reside in scattered near-Desktop folders labeled refs, oldrefs, olderrefs, JOC2013article_refs, etc.
Yea, much like tadpoles whose limbs have not yet protruded, women were considered to be underdeveloped in the protrusion department.
Females tend to feel romantic love much like childcare, except weaker.
@jf12, interesting study, bookmarking.
Kind of puts a different spin on the “Looks are the ONLY thing” assertions from Siirtyrion doesn’t it?
Men wear socks. Walmart sells more socks than anyone; their average price is $7.99. Odds are you will wear Walmart socks. (Unless you’re a fetishist who picks up a pair of used cashmere socks at the Goodwill.) Your preferences, choices, and Brooks Bros. charge card notwithstanding, get used to the idea of wearing $7.99 socks from Walmart.
Until relatively recently, the age of consent (at least for marriage) was pretty much the age at which Nature declares that a girl has become a young woman. One reason for this is because, after this transition point, her hormones start shrieking at her to fuck and have babies, and she also matures much earlier than boys, so that she is able to take care of the children that she is now able to bear. (This article has interesting information about ages of maturity: http://no-maam.blogspot.ca/2012/06/woman-most-responsible-teenager-in.html ) Another reason is that the longer her biological-emotional needs are not met, the more… Read more »
Another fine reference, previously discussed, finally published. http://psp.sagepub.com/content/40/10/1341.full Birnbaum G, Ein-Dor T, Reis H, Segal N. 2014. Why do men prefer nice women? Gender typicality mediates the effect of responsiveness on perceived attractiveness in initial acquaintanceships. Pers Soc Psychol Bull.,10, 1341-1353. Researchers confirm, again, still, as always, that male cuddly-wuddliness, male giving, male caring, male loving, male concern, male niceness, is a disattractant for human females. And seemingly only human females. Human females are extremely messed-up. The same researchers hope and speculate that there is an island of lost unicorns, somewhere as yet undiscovered, where human females like nice guys.… Read more »
“Gender typicality” = nice women + mean men! ROFL, and also sad.
“For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side. Yes, you can fuck them to your hearts delight if your game is tight enough.”
Oh no!!!! Statistics aren’t on my side??!!!
I’m so fucking threatened!
“MARRY” “…fuck them to your hearts delight…”
Planning to suffer “oneitis” for some broad that’s been rode hard and put up wet?
Mark Twain said – “There are lies, there are damned lies, then there are statistics”
Then there are those who thumb suck statistics because they are too WEAK to make their own choices.
“For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side. Actually they are. Even Aunt Giggles acknowledges that, statistically, most women want to marry at between the ages of 27-29 (precisely my graphs metric) and the majority express a preference to marry men between 3-5 years older than themselves. Jenny’s lament is actually on the late side of this equation, but still serves as a good example. Why do you suppose she isn’t looking for an LTR / Marriage with a guy 3-5 years younger than herself? Or even her same age? By the… Read more »
Whenever I hear people talk about how a younger woman would neither be interested in, nor able to talk to, an older man, I am reminded of a young woman whose nickname was tick-toc. She was the daughter of a close friend, and one of the tiny handful of truly nice females that I have ever seen. For quite some time, she had to be given extra presents around holidays, because she insisted on sharing them with her brothers, from the time she was around four. After a while, she figured out that her brothers were only being kind to… Read more »
The Nice Daughters hypothesis, as stated here, is the symplectic partner of the Sexy Sons hypothesis. Maybe the reason so many men are so nice is because those traits are passed down to their daughters, who then grow up to give births and raise children with motherly care, without being murdered young for being bitchy.
And another, validating women’s SMV peak at age 24
Antfolk et al. 2014. Women’s and men’s sexual preferences and activities with respect to the partner’s age: evidence for female choice. Evolution & Human Behavior, in press.
Understatement of the year:
“men’s heterosexual activity likely is constrained by female choice.”
Snide observation ofthe year: Look! A whole journal publishing what Siirtyrion says doesn’t exist.
Roosh spends $6500 for each lay. Lol. http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.ca/2014/09/guest-post-roosh-spends-6500-per-lay.html
@Glenn, still a better ROI than most marriages, but less than direct prostitution.
@Glenn That example was rather humorous from Roosh. If you read the article you realize that his life cost that much per bang assuming that the main focus was getting laid – which at that time it was not. A guy making 200k and having a wife and a mistress could aptly calculate 100k price tag per bang and an aging billionaire with his wife a 1 billion $ per bang. This was not what Roosh had in mind with the article. In Poland Roosh had sometimes 20 bangs per month on living expenses of 2k per month. Mind you… Read more »
Eon: “She shook out her hair so that it fell almost down to her waist, and then her whole demeanor changed. She became taller; her walk changed; her posture changed; her facial expressions changed; the way that she talked changed; everything changed. “As she walked up to him, she became a sophisticated young woman who flawlessly joined his conversation.” Rollo has mentioned Aristotle. Post-Aristotle: Epictetus, 135 AD in his Encheiridion: “40. Women from fourteen years old are flattered with the title of “mistresses” by the men. Therefore, perceiving that they are regarded only as qualified to give the men pleasure,… Read more »
About Glenn, October 14th, 2014 at 3:48 pm “Roosh spends $6500 for each lay. Lol. aaronsleazyblogspotca/2014/09/guest-post-roosh-spends-6500-per-layhtml Bwahahahahahahaha!” . Glenn is simply unable to stop himself from trying to mislead the readers here. I followed his link, and even a commenter there [Anonymous, September 21, 2014 at 3:04 PM] pointed out the bullshit. . In this article, wwwrooshvcom/cost-per-notch, from January 15, 2007, Roosh calculated that his Cost Per Notch, as money spent DIRECTLY on women in 2006, was $187 (which “also accounts for those girls I went out on a date with but not did not eventually have sex with”). .… Read more »
I just did some math:
1985: Cost/Bang – $0
1995: Cost/Bang – $116.70
2014: Cost/Bang – $3,020.88
Experimental demonstrations of overall evolutionary benefit of male facial attractiveness: zero.
Lee A, Mitchem D, Wright M, Martin N, Keller M, Zietsch B. 2014. Genetic factors that increase male facial masculinity decrease facial attractiveness of female relatives. Psychol Sci, 25(2), 476-484.
This is the “unsexy sisters” (and daughters) result.
Cornwell R, Perrett D. 2008. Sexy sons and sexy daughters: the influence of parents’ facial characteristics on offspring. Animal Behaviour, 76(6), 1843-1853.
Based just on facial photographs of families across generations, attractiveness is passed on to daughters, not sons.
“We should, therefore, fix our attention on making them sensible that they are valued for the appearance of decent, modest and discreet behavior.”
This is indeed true, and the prerequisite is a society whose created paths at least enable everything that would be involved in doing so.
Although men and women have different characters and natures, both have many potential crossroads, and both are equivalently negatively affected by messages and forces in the current environment, from their earliest years.
The misconception is that Jenny’s article proves she is getting her comeuppance, in fact it proves the exact opposite. You have to remember who Jenny is trying to lock down, a millionaire Alpha architect, top 5%. The fact that she is even getting a look in is proof of her SMV despite being 30. As for the architect, what are his chances of locking down and marrying a hot 22 year old? Going by marriage age gap graphs very very slim, despite being in the top 5%. When men are in high demand they marry early (see post WWII marriage… Read more »
re: “have extraordinary expectations”. Having increasingly-unmet expectations is proof neither of being “in demand” nor of rationality.
” . . . unaccounted for are all the investments we do to become a man that gets laid easily – but that is a philosophical question. ” I went to college because physics, astronomy and engineering had always fascinated me. I strength train to be strong and robust. It makes life easier than being weak and fragile. I speed train to set course records and to be able to get myself around at a reasonable speed without relying on a motorized wheelchair. Plus it’s fun and motion is tranquility. I shoot in order to be able to provide my… Read more »
Why pay for a bang when you can get paid to bang….
Real alpha ain’t cheap