Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany


About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was right around the same week I published Alpha Agents of Righteous Karma and, coming from a fairly attractive woman, it highlighted many of the points I’d made in that post.

Commenter myreality asked me:

To what extent, if at all, do you think that validation hunting is part of male preference for large age differences when a man is in his late 30’s and beyond? It is definitely not 0%…

I think this is presuming a truth that isn’t.

The idea that men “seek validation” for their earned status or to ‘right’ past wrongs to their egos while they were working their way to that status is a social convention. The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

Have a look at my Sexual Market Value Graph. (click to enlarge)


Although I’ve gone into explaining the loose metrics I’ve based this graph on several occasions, I’ve added some arrows here to illustrate a point that often gets missed or simply blown over because the truths it represents aren’t very flattering. Women would rather men not be aware of their own SMV potential prior to women being able to consolidate upon her sexual strategy.

Popular culture never presumes women are ‘validation hunting’ when they’re enjoying their peak SMV potential at 23 and (by order of degree) indulging that opportunity with men while at their peak. Women are acculturated to feel “empowered” by their sexuality, and really, no guy who wants to bang a hot 23 year old woman is ever going to rebuke her for it, much less develop social conventions to limit their odds of doing so.

However, men enjoying peak SMV in their mid to late 30’s are (by default) presumed to be vindicating themselves and validating their “fragile egos” by dating the younger (and in Jenny Bahn’s case an SMV peaked 23 year old no less) women they naturally find more attractive.

If there is any ‘validation’ for SMV peaked men it’s less about the sense of deserving a hot piece of ass or vindication for the women of his peer age who found him sexually invisible until he hit his peak, and more about validation in a new self-awareness that he finally is in a position of choosing and qualifying women for his intimacy rather than being filtered for his own acceptability for so long.

It’s not about turnabout or fair play now that the sexual selection shoe is on the other foot, but simple deductive pragmatism for a man who is aware of his own SMV and, assuming he’s hasn’t hamstrung his ability to maneuver, wants to exercise that value at (presumedly) the top of his game.

It’s not (usually) that he’s made a conscious effort to make himself an Alpha Agent of Righteous Karma, but that he steps into that role by default when the SMV balance shifts to his favor, and he naturally prefers sexual access to the best physical, and most sexually available woman his newly recognized SMV will afford him. That may not be a 23 year old coed, but it might be with a necessitous 29 year old looking for a solution to her long term investment.

About Those Arrows

One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation.

Critics who like to presume that this attraction is only based on looks, prowess and virility often don’t take this attraction prioritization into account. Obviously a more youthful man is in better physical shape when he’s younger, and if all we were considering was short term mating prospects and the Alpha Fuck side of feminine hypergamy this graph would look much different. However, once a woman has reached 30 (thank you Ms. Bahn) those attraction (not arousal) priorities look much different.

The primary reason I placed men’s peak SMV in his mid to late thirties is because, if he’s made the most of his potential, this is when he is most likely to have established himself in his status, affluence and achievements while (if he’s maintained himself) still retaining the looks of a more mature man.

It’s exactly women’s sexual prioritization at their most necessitous which puts men at the top of their SMV game. As I’ve detailed in many prior posts, hypergamy wants optimization (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks). Women’s pluralistic sexual strategy is optimized when a woman can consolidate a monogamous commitment from a man who can deliver a better genetic benefit and a better personal (providership) investment than her own SMV should realistically be able to warrant her.

In general, at no other point in a man’s life does he possess the a better potential to optimize women’s innate hypergamy.

If you follow the pink arrow, from about women’s 30th year that established SMV peaked man has the best potential to satisfy both aspects of the dualistic nature of hypergamy. It’s important to consider that when a woman reaches her 30s her sexual prioritization is affected by her own capacity to attract and hold male attention. What happens is a sort of subconscious establishing operation – as her capacity to attract becomes diminished, and as the next generation of SMV peaked women comes into their own, the urgency to cash out of the sexual market place increases.

So it’s not that the expectation should be one of 23 year old women wanting to get after it with 38 year old men (though this is exactly the scenario in Jenny Bahn’s story), but rather that 38 year old men increase exponentially in value to 30 year old women at a time when what he possess is what she needs the most.

Back in May a data set was released on Twitter from OKCupid founder Christian Rudder is his book Dataclysm: Who We Are (When We Think No One’s Looking)It’s a fascinating read actually and reinforces much of what I speculate about with regard to my own SMV graph.

Data_9780385347372_3p_all_r1.j.indd Data_9780385347372_3p_all_r1.j.indd

It’s important to remember that this data is based primarily on looks, but it illustrates the point of my adding the blue arrow to the graph. Men’s arousal and attraction triggers are virtually static. While men’s attraction value variates for women, it is a locked value for women.

While in her SMV peak – as we can see averaged her to around 22 – women enjoy the benefit of having the most sexual selectivity of their lives. However, the power of this selectivity declines as she ages and is further stressed by sexual competition as she does. And while men compete for sexual access to women, the sexual market value of the woman being competed for is still rooted in her capacity to attract attention and arouse men.

When in her SMV peak years, women’s preferences and sexual strategy supersede those of the men who would compete for her, however as she moves towards maturity, and as men ascend to their own SMV peak, a man’s preferences gradually take precedence over women’s.

Jenny Bahn, a reasonably attractive (former model) woman provides us with an excellent example of this transition.

Alex is 38. I’m 30. Technically, there are no “people our age.” But I’m starting to feel that a 30-year-old woman might as well be a 40-year-old man, though infinitely less desirable, culturally speaking.

At 40, a man is well into hitting his stride, something the guy I’m arguing with is all too aware of, as evidenced when he professes on multiple occasions, “I’m an amazing guy.” “We’re killing it. KILLING IT,” he tells me, while explaining that he’s been caught up in his rapidly expanding architecture firm.

[…]A 30-year-old woman is an undertaking, and it’s the real reason Alex has been putting me on the back burner for the past two months, telling me that I’m amazing and that he’s interested and then disappearing to hang out with a 23-year-old instead. Age ain’t nothing but a number, until it’s a number someone else doesn’t want to deal with.

As I mentioned in The Threat:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

Jenny, like most women in their Epiphany Phase, is now coming to terms with the transition of sexual selection power from what she once no doubt enjoyed to a man who’s made the most of his maturity and potential she wants to consolidate on in long term monogamy.

Jenny has a rare honesty and insight to recognize this, but naturally the ‘validation’ social convention is there to assuage her predicament. Even in her self-acceptance of her situation Alex is colored with an uncooperative attitude. His perspective is ‘incorrect’ in a fem-centric social order. If he were really ‘mature’ he would be dating and marrying Jenny (a victim of her own past decisions) instead of seeking ‘validation’ with a 23 year old hottie.

The presumption of Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old makes men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order. A mature, established man shouldn’t want to date women in their 20s, he should cooperate with the Feminine Imperative and validate Jenny’s sexual strategy by becoming monogamous with her.

What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny; women who delayed capitalizing on their SMV peak and now, at 30, find themselves on the necessitous side of that sexual selectivity.


  1. These feel good stories of bitter women getting a taste of what they dished out for so long never get old. NEVER GET OLD.

    We’re killing it! lol

    poor hamster. 🙂

  2. The main reason 30s men date 20s women might not be validation, but don’t tell me passive revenge doesn’t taste sweet to a man who was lonely in his 20s.

  3. Such delicious schadenfreude. Alex would have been sexually invisible to Jenny ten years ago when she was banging up and down runways and getting paid big dollars for photo shoots, and I have no doubt she broke the hearts of many a man who was attracted to her but didn’t pass muster. Nice dig in the article that assumes that men in their later years are looking to settle down after decades of fooling around but the truth is that men start “fooling around” after decades of being brutalized seeking “the ONE.” Until Jenny faces the fact that the reason Alex won’t lock down to her is that she isn’t worth locking down to, she fails to face reality–a reality that will only come more grim as days pass and take her farther and farther from the fantasyland of her own sexually-dominant 20s.

  4. Rollo, you briefly mention how different an Alpha Fucks graph would look. I can say that whenever I see this graph of yours two thoughts have always leapt into my mind.

    1. Being desired by a 30 year old woman is essentially worthless compared to being desired by a 20 year old

    2. Most of us here have become aware that Beta Bucks is a fool’s game.

    This graph stands as an excellent example of the terrain that an AFC is pitiably oblivious to, but for those of us who “ain’t fattenin’ no more frogs for snakes”, an Alpha Fucks graph, detailing what a man can expect from women who aren’t moments from their expiration date and looking for a meal ticket, would be very worthwhile.

    Personally, I’m 31 and newly single, and this last year where I have been red pill enlightened has given me about 15 notches with college aged girls. Sometimes with enjoyable emotional connection, sometimes without, but the question is always in my mind: ” If I’m not willing to step into the beta bucks trap, how much longer can I pull this off?”

  5. When the male birth control comes out in 2017 women are going to be in for a rude awakening. No more waiting till the 11th hour to cash in on her lifetime meal ticket. Men around 35 are going to have tremendous power to pump and dump because women are going to be burned left and right by men using up there last few years while spitting blanks. Lol.

  6. Another meme brought up by mid 30s women concerning men around their peak being with women at their peak is what would a mid 30s man talk about with a young 20s woman.
    Well, you can ask the mid 30s woman if she wants to talk about this subject.

  7. Water Fridge, keep in good shape and good muscle tone. If your hair doesn’t gray or thin too much, or if you look good with a shaved head. You still got plenty of time.
    One point Rollo made in another post is that as you get older, don’t try to youth yourself by trying to fit in, or appeal to a younger age group. Can’t remember how he described it, but the gist was keep a youthful vibe by taking care of yourself physically, and also in attitude(no grumpy guy who complains a lot) but not to the point you come across as trying to keep up with a younger age group.(using slang that doesn’t flow naturally to you)
    And stepping into a beta trap is not an option to make up for getting older. It’s something you leave behind like dead skin cells. Shed that thought.

  8. Thanks cannon.
    Yeah, I’m ripped and look young enough that I keep getting carded when I take the young ones to hookah bars. Thanks to a life time of avoiding sugar, getting lots of water, vitamin-c and of course good ol Satan :-P.
    Still, hard to escape the idea that I’m getting away with something unrealistic that surely won’t last.

  9. After being on The Pill for almost a year, most things do not make me rage. A few do.

    Rollo should be eternally praised for uncovering this second layer of the Matrix. This layer is the fact that society/women has written our whole frame of thinking to be gynocentric. Like a virus, it has written itself into the DNA of our own decision process.

    For instance, there is this belief that “men should mature and settle down” as they age. And I say: why the fuck should we?

    What if I did the opposite: had a kid at age 15 (!) and then went to being a free spirit at age 33 and had the fun of my life (travel, surfing, etc.) until I die?

    The whole social script for men has been written to play into the female life strategy. Go to college, have a career, so that you earn a lot of money and have high social status, so that your wife can benefit from 80% of your work and is not ashamed about your lack of a degree.

    Guys, who buy muscle cars at age 40 are shamed to have a midlife crisis. Maybe they are finally sane and are spending their own hard earned money on themselves, instead of pouring it into a big house that is HER status symbol.

  10. It’s infuriating to discover, that the enemy is inside your own head, put there Inception-style through cultural programming and even your own altruistic-to-the-opposite-sex DNA. You thought that you had a male life strategy, but its hidden axioms have been put there to make you a convenient utility to women’s life strategy.

  11. While Rollo states:

    One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation.

    He is correct that it doesn’t necessarily happen. However the reality is that it does sometimes happen. It happened for me.

    That will not stop you from getting screwed over.

  12. Rollo – what would be your take on a man SMV peak if he is interested mainly in Alpha fucks and has started learning Game formally in his early 20s? Since the prime attraction group among all guys are 18-23 year old girls, are we right to assume that a man with Game might peak in his end 20/early 30s due to his massive attraction as Alpha-fucks especially among women in their prime?
    Currently the experiences of young PUAs who are in their end 20s substantiate that assumption.
    Even the Ok-cupid graph somewhat supports that Alpha-fucks-with-Game-peak around 28 and 32 (slight plateaus there) – of course also your 38-general-peak (largest plateau there).

  13. Another spot on article. Part of the “Sex in the City” philosophy was the brainwashing that women get better as they grow older. It was played out in the series that women should have their careers and it was no trouble finding a man (younger) later in life. But this idea never made sense…..and hopefully more men are waking up to the fact that they’ve been duped (and it’s nonsense). Older women don’t carry the same SMV as older men. Women had their time (high SMV) when they were young and many are angry that the time has passed.

  14. As Rollo notes, the current FI zeitgeist asserts that female sexual impulses are to be celebrated as ’empowering.’ On top of that, many women who coupled up 10 or 15 or 20 years ago never rode the sexy train, and thus they both feel cheated *and* politically justified (“empowered”) to run around. (This summary resembles my ex-wife pretty well.)

    So it’s eye-opening to interact with married women now, not as “married women” (i.e., demonstrating some respect for their apparent monogamy), but simply as women, as sexual beings. There are some desperate women out there. I had no idea. I’m sure there always have been, but now they are politically correct, socially advanced, for acting on their feelings. I think that’s what’s new. It’s progressive to cheat, or something. Don’t light any matches unless you’re ready for combustion. The flash point is just about room temperature.

    WaterUnderTheFridge, my experience is that there will be interest by young women in you for a long, long time. I’m a *lot* older than you are, and I was hit on by a 24 year-old Saturday night. In her cohort she’s probably a 7, maybe an eight. Her last boyfriend was a nordic linebacker on the college football team. Now, most women in that cohort look right through me: I’m invisible. But not all, and you will find — even in 20 years — that the younger women who do have an interest will make it extremely plain, provided you are paying attention to nonverbal and verbal cues — and not (as another mentioned above) trying too hard, which immediately pushes a guy into the creepy category.

    This sort of experience happens to me once a month or so, just in everyday interactions. I don’t go looking for 25 year-old strange, nor do I want to get shot by someone’s husband. But in doing my research, and slightly changing how I interact with women both younger and older, I realize that for 30 years I was pulling women unwittingly. My formality with them simply allowed them (and me) to hide behind social convention. Now that I ignore those conventions (taboos against age-inappropriate relationships; taboos against risky, emotional connections with marrieds), I have a *completely* different view of female sexuality.

    Obviously this latter point should inform our capacity to trust a woman enough to care for her longterm, or to marry her.

  15. Isn’t Jenny a “Strong, Independent Woman™”? She doesn’t need a man to have a family, right? She can do it all on her own, no problem. Good luck Jenny, and make very good friends with your vibrator. It won’t be too long before that’s all you’ll have left – memories and masturbation, lol. It couldn’t happen to a nicer girl.

  16. @emma, it isn’t passive revenge. The closest it comes to “revenge” is active Dread, e.g. “What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny”

    When a man who has been waiting, and waiting and waiting, in line to get to the buffet table, when he finally gets to start loading his plate with all the goodies, it’s NOT to get “revenge” on the people who were fressing before him.

  17. I agree with Buena Vista, and will highlight the points:
    1) “interact with married women now, not as “married women” (i.e., demonstrating some respect for their apparent monogamy), but simply as women, as sexual beings”
    Women respond sexually to being treated sexually.
    2) “Don’t light any matches unless you’re ready for combustion. The flash point is just about room temperature.”
    It’s a lot lot lot easier than you think, if you’ve never really tried.
    3) “there will be interest by young women in you for a long, long time. I’m a *lot* older than you are, and I was hit on by a 24 year-old Saturday night.”
    It happens, and will keep happening, provided you present yourself as open to treating her sexually.
    4) “you will find — even in 20 years — that the younger women who do have an interest will make it extremely plain”
    Yes, extremely. It isn’t strictly Daddy issues, btw.
    5) “This sort of experience happens to me once a month or so, just in everyday interactions.”
    After I started making opportunities happen just to see how, I have to make them stop happening. As I said, it becomes too easy, if you don’t want to hurt people.
    6) “Now that I ignore those conventions (taboos against age-inappropriate relationships; taboos against risky, emotional connections with marrieds), I have a *completely* different view of female sexuality.”
    A man’s willingness to be bad is irresistible to women.

  18. JF12, your #5 presents a non-trivial quandary, often. Because one may have a choice between communication and companionship with someone, and imposing hazard (moral or physical) on her or oneself.

    Anyway, it’s a robust insight, I believe (the whole of female availability, regardless of social constraints), but also a fairly bleak one. It is hard o grasp (for me) how ruthless hypergamy is.

    None of us, over time, exists in perfect physical utility. The very qualities that signal value to a woman (e.g., risk-taking, dangerous work, testing against other men) can leave us with a convalescence now and again. And convalescing men aren’t of much interest to a woman who’s crushing on our utility.

  19. I would add that when I say I simply interact with women as sexual beings, I simply treat them like I used to treat female staff: as professional colleagues, as peers, matter of factly. I’m not lobbing PUA grenades.

    The young girl I was talking to over the weekend is a newspaper reporter. I’m in the deep country, and kids like that will moonlight as bartenders just to hang out for free. I know her editor, I worked for papers, my dad was an editor. So we just shot the shit with none of the social framing (e.g., I didn’t highlight the age difference, I didn’t apologize for existing in a fairly young crowd at the roadhouse, I didn’t mock her age). I guess I was pre-qualified in that one of her girlfriends used to go flying with me etc. In 60 minutes she invited me to go out in the dark and smoke, to go with her and some friends to eat, and finally, she made me promise to return to the tavern last night to keep her company (I did not). She then sends me a FB friend request. This woman is younger than my daughter, and until a year or two ago, I would have simply patronized her like a pedastalized ward. And none of the above gestures, of course, would have happened.

    I just had no idea, but I sure understand better why I’m divorced.

    A former brother-in-law is a novelist and story writer, and I remember when I received a collection from him in which there is a picaresque, Rabelaisian, rough-edged plumber in a southern Missouri town. The plumber is banging all the local housewives (this is all the way down into the boot heal. I told him “Great stories, but a little exaggerated, no?” And the author, who worked for the plumber summers during college, said, “I took stuff out.” I still didn’t believe him but I do now.

  20. @BV, some folks may not believe Jennifer Lawrence when she says she’s had the dripping hots for Larry David. Suspending disbelief however, he’s clearly a vigorous i.e. nonconvalescing man. His shtick is primarily hyperactive dork who is willing to be immoral. I’m saying it isn’t his hyperactivity or dorkiness, or devastating wit that works, but the employ of those traits in presenting himself as willing to go “there”, in full view of God and everybody, that (some) young women *will* find dripping hot.

  21. Just read the “30 is the new 50” article. Good grief…

    “It’s this logic that has most of my 30-something guy friends dating girls fresh out of college. Girls who, in my experience, are less impressive, less striving, less volatile, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less complex, less damaged, less opinionated, less powerful, less womanly. They are less, and, to a guy not ready for anything—like most of the guys I have dated in New York—less is more.”

    Allow me to parse:

    It’s been said before, but to reiterate, men just simply don’t care about “striving”, “successful”, “impressive”, “powerful” career shrikes. In fact, the credentials of female careerists are most often a net negative, not a net positive.

    And these adjectives… “less intimidating”, “less questioning”, “less complex” “less damaged”, “less opinionated”. Her truthfulness is admirable I suppose, but it lacks any self-awareness because she equates such qualities with being more “womanly”… Note, she doesn’t say “feminine”… In fact, the only definition these womanly qualities can apply to is “masculine”.

    The appeal of a woman at peak SMV is that they have NONE of these masculine qualities. And for men that desire them, such logic is absolutely sound. In addition to just the physical characteristics, peak SMV woman still have a feminine allure emotionally as well. They have a joie de vivre… An exultation of spirit. A whimsical playfulness, flirtiness and passing innocence.

    Many could keep those qualities into ripe old age too if they didn’t buy into the successful career woman canard. My grandmother was an extremely feminine woman into her 80s – playful, flirtatious and full of life. My alpha grandfather adored her, and she him.

    But sadly, the carousel and career ambitions quickly wring out such desirable qualities. It’s just amazing to me that most women refuse to see this… And irony of ironies… Apply most of the qualities she mentions above to men, and what do you get… an Alpha male.

  22. It has been mentioned that popular love songs are typically written by men. I found this curious and spent some weeks carefully researching song titles I’m familiar with to determine specifically who wrote them. Overwhelmingly most love songs sung by men or women are written by men. Women are more than happy to sing the songs written by men that stimulate and entertain men.

    Confirmation of this fact lead me to research love songs written by women to see what they write and perhaps gain a better understanding of what females experience and want. “Fidelity” written by the female artist Regina Spektor is typical of what I‘ve found so far. Love songs actually written by women seem exclusively focused on how SHE FEELS from “her” perspective and concerned with little else. The title “Fidelity” is an interesting metaphor. The lyrics are copied below.

    I never loved nobody fully
    Always one foot on the ground
    And by protecting my heart truly
    I got lost, in the sounds

    I hear in my mind
    All of these voices
    I hear in my mind
    All of these words
    I hear in my mind
    All of this music
    And it breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart

    Suppose I never ever met you
    Suppose we’d never fell in love
    Suppose I never ever let you
    Kiss me so sweet and so soft
    Suppose I never ever saw you
    Suppose you never ever called
    Suppose I kept on singing love songs
    Just to break my own fall
    Just to break my fall
    Just to break my fall
    Just to break my fall
    Break my fall, break my fall

    All my friends say that of course its
    Gonna get better, gonna get better
    Better, better, better, better, better, better, better

    I never loved nobody fully
    Always one foot on the ground
    And by protecting my heart truly
    I got lost, in the sounds

    I hear in my mind
    All of these voices
    I hear in my mind
    All of these words
    I hear in my mind
    All of this music
    And it breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart

    I hear in my mind
    All of these voices
    I hear in my mind
    All of these words
    I hear in my mind
    All of this music
    And it breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart
    It breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart
    Breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart
    It breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart
    And it breaks my heart

    The apparent female perspective exemplified here may seem extremely selfish and therefore difficult or impossible to negotiate. However, it is not because it can very easily be used to motivate her into a mindset that will drive the behavior you desire. The 30 year old woman’s SMV crisis is a specific example of one condition that can be used to your advantage. Women tend to be irrational making this easier not harder for us. If we assume they are rational or expect them to be, we miss the opportunity to effectively understand reality and capitalize upon female traits that facilitate our sexual advantage. Women are like instruments to be tuned and played. Men are the performers. The instrument does not play the performer.

  23. JF12, in respect of your Larry David comment, a recent event that contributes to my conviction that — for half of the female population, a cohort that changes and shifts over time, incidentally — there are no barriers to hypergamous sexual ambition. I mean, zero. It’s a free-fire zone. We are the targets.

    For five years I’ve had a friend, married, whom I regard as probably the most attractive ‘mature’ woman within 100 miles. Obviously YMMV, but as far as I am concerned, she is as beautiful as my ex-, and my ex- and her mom both modeled for Vogue.

    I have had a lot of quasi-tense, quasi-wow-there’s-some-chemistry-here relationships with other marrieds, when I was married. I managed to stay on my side of the fence for 20 years, although there was the time that my ex-wife’s best friend said, “You look at me like we’re fucking.” And I definitely was, and I definitely (in retrospect) was being told to get busy and make it happen. (She later ran off to Switzerland with another neighbor, kidnapping her younger son in the process. Her husband didn’t see his own son for several years.)

    So this woman, now, for five years, has been my occasional conversation partner in her cafe. Maybe 4-5 times a year. Sometimes she’d come back and reopen and make me something. She’s on marriage #2, a “safety and security” marriage to a country stockbroker. I know little about him, except that he just had hip replacement, he complains about it, and he refuses to perform oral sex. That’s what she’s told me about him, other than he’s a “great guy.” I’m sure she “loves him”, but she’s “just not in love with him.”

    Two weeks ago, after kissing her on the cheeks in the Russian style again, she complained in a text: “What’s with your fascination with my cheeks?”. So in the interests of science I went straight through the fourth wall and texted back “You’re just annoyed I didn’t take your clothes off ha-ha.” She propositioned me that night in a 1000 word email, complaining at the same time that I had wasted five years by being inscrutable and remote (i.e., I respected her marital situation). Yeah, I respected her marital status. However, I do think I’m too old to be this much of a chump. There are no barriers to female sexual hypergamy ambitions. It’s self-actualizing for half of the women out there to cut those ambitions loose.

  24. @Thoroughbred, when I first read the article I really wanted to give Jenny the benefit of the doubt, but for all her personal admissions and insight she still defaults to the social convention narratives of the Feminine Imperative.

    Even after being a model in her 20s, she still clings to the narrative she was taught by the F.I., that men should be attracted to her experience, success, volatility (?), ambition and complexity.

    She then goes on to shame men for preferring younger women who represent less impressiveness, less striving, less volatility, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less damage, less opinionated, less powerful and finally she equates all of that to which to any rational man would see as a boon, as less womanly.

    So lost in her bitterness at her state and so focused on the indignation that men wont cooperate with the lies the F.I. has sold her on, she is literally incapable of seeing the very simple deductive pragmatism men see in dating (fucking) younger women when they’ve subjectively reached a state where their sexual priorities come to prominence.

    The not so latent message is that men in this peak SMV cohort aren’t appreciating her unequalled intrinsic qualities as the F.I. assured her they should. Thus ‘all men’ are vapid and shallow for pursuing their own sexual strategies and ignoring “what real men should be attracted to” in a woman.

    Rather than using her predicament as a cautionary story to the younger, more attractive women she once was, her focus is directed toward the men who naturally don’t want to follow the approved plan of the F.I. Women like Jenny are so ego-invested in the falsehoods of feminine-primacy, she is literally incapable of seeing them even after she’s experienced firsthand proofs and behaviors that expose the falsehood.

  25. @BV re: “for half of the female population, a cohort that changes and shifts over time, incidentally — there are no barriers”

    Yes, besides monthly and seasonal shifts, the cohort changes after the typical few years max of the honeymoon period.

    This is an important point against women who cry that “Game only works on sluts!”, as if that scurrilious designation limits anything. And against women arguing like Siirtyrion and HUS “Game only works on genetically deficient sluts!”

  26. Game is behavior, specifically sexual behavior, specifically competently behaving with sexual intent. No, it isn’t a circular definition, no it isn’t just a sexual “component”, no it isn’t “a branch of Nolij”.

  27. If she is ready for you to get down to business (they all are on some level most of the time) and you are concerned with game too much, she will either think you are “clueless” or you are “chicken”. In either case, she will loose desire.

  28. Rollo,

    I wonder about the difference in SMV and MMV (marriage market value). The percentage of men who marry women more than 8 years younger than them is low; less than 8%. When you go above 15 years it gets even lower. Yes men can have sex and short term flings with younger women, but if you want to marry them you had better be elite or the percentages are against you. The majority of marriages are within 4 years age difference.

    My point, I think that your SMV graph would look different if it just measured MMV. This may not mean anything for those who aim at promiscuity, but for men who want wives and sex to occur within the confines of monogamous commitment AND who want a younger woman, well that is just not open to many men. Not statistically.

  29. One element about the SMV graph that I think gets lost on people is how the Feminine Imperative’s social conventions fluidly accommodate for “appropriateness” of relationships according to the phase of life a woman finds herself in.

    For instance, there’s far less “stigma” for a 40 year old man dating a 30 year old woman, than a 33 year old man dating a 23 year old woman. It’s still a difference of 10 years, but why is the former acceptable and the latter a perversion?

    Because the 30 year old is in a more precarious, necessitous phase of her life. In a feminine-primary social order, the “appropriateness’ of any relationship defaults to a woman’s sexual strategy.

  30. Is the graph an expression of strictly SMV, and do you think marriage statistics would produce similar results if the feminine imperative was not an influence?

  31. “The appropriate age for marriage is around eighteen for girls and thirty-seven for men.” – Aristotle

    I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but I think it’s safe to presume the FI looked much different in 350 BC.

  32. I am going with Aristotles here too. The Marriage Market Value is actually more extreme than the pure short-term mating market value – especially with the highly coveted 18-23 demographic among Players.

    The difficulty is not to in finding a young girl who is sexually attracted to a man 20 years older, but one who wants to settle down in her prime. This becomes quickly clear when guys travel or move to countries like Ukraine or SEA and an unmarried girl by age 24 is already getting a bit frantic and would like to settle down fast. Also in those countries you have way less women brainwashed into expecting her husband to be 5 years older max. The only caveat is that you would have to be in shape and have a youthful adventurous personality (don’t be Mr. Grandpa sitting front of the TV as the main activity).

    But nowadays the differences between generations are small. Remember that the 40-year-old generation X grew up on Nirvana, Videogames, Ecstasy and Rave-parties. Apart from broad social shaming and the feminine imperative there is nothing really that is lowering a man’s MMV in the eyes of a significantly younger girl.

  33. @ jf12:

    The statement: “Successful (competent) sexual behavior (Game) is successful” is an example of circular reasoning.

    If Game works as universally as you claim, you should be able to prove it with all women, most importantly with those who maintain that it does not work.

    Such proof would require well-documented evidence of Game’s efficacy, verified and subjected to critique by independent observers to control for perception and other biases.

    Absent such evidence, the claim “Game works” has as much truth to it as other faith-based, wishful thinking statements (e.g., God exists; unicorns are soft).

  34. I’d love to see Jenny’s face when she reads this article, as I’m sure she will. Oh, and what some of the comments would do to her self-image …

  35. Personally I have never felt anger towards a guy getting a girl, since I was able to get pretty girls too from age 19 on. And ever since I was 15 and worked in a few high-end hotels on summer jobs I realized that wealthy charismatic men were having always women 20 years younger than them. With some it was only wealth and with some it seemed to be real attraction.

    And as far as Jenny is concerned – she is likely still highly attractive. The best thing that she could do is to find that inner girl within her and remember what it was like to be a carefree happy 16-year-old without all that emotional baggage and the gritty expectations. I have in my life met women who were feminine and flirtatious by the age of 65! It was fun to be around with them and were it not for the obvious difference of sexual attraction due to father time – most guys would love to be around those kind of women. Too bad that those feminine women are dying out to be replaced by ball-busting Alpha-widows even at the age of 28.

  36. And one more for the people who claim game doesn’t work:
    At 52 I’ve just recently discovered red pill, pua, game, the manosphere …

    While I’m not spinning plates (yet), the knowledge I’ve gleamed form this site among others has helped me to get my LTR in order so as to satisfy ME – there will probably be a divorce somewhere down the road, but still, it is now far more satisfying than before I applied dread. I also get (and see) IOIs from girls in their 20’s and 30’s – what would confirm what the gentleman above stated. Work is endless covert flirting from several of the 20-somethings and one yummy WILF (wife …). I get hit on regularly at bars when I go out and I generally care about staying in form, mentally as well as physically – you wouldn’t believe how dilapidated some dudes 10 years my junior look.

    When I compare my life now with myself at the beginning of 2013, when I was earnestly elucidating whether jump from a bridge or under a train, well, that’s how things changed for me since discovering this all.

    Thanks, Rollo, for all the dispensed wisdom.

  37. “For instance, there’s far less “stigma” for a 40 year old man dating a 30 year old woman, than a 33 year old man dating a 23 year old woman. It’s still a difference of 10 years, but why is the former acceptable and the latter a perversion? Because the 30 year old is in a more precarious, necessitous phase of her life. In a feminine-primary social order, the “appropriateness’ of any relationship defaults to a woman’s sexual strategy.”

    Scales just geek from my eyes.

    Because the 30 year old is in a more precarious, necessitous phase of her life. In a feminine-primary social order, the “appropriateness’ of any relationship defaults to a woman’s sexual strategy.”

    I understand it ALL now.

    Its simply then cashing out at 30 no matter what! No matter to whome as long as he is above a baseline AFBB. at 30 any monkey will do

  38. “Feminism lied to me, and men have a responsibility to make those lies come true. I had my fun, but now it looks like I might be facing consequences. Give up your day in the sun to save me from my own choices, and you’ll get this official F.I. badge of commendation and appropriateness.

    Otherwise you are just a frightened man-boy who can’t handle my intimidating girl power.”

  39. It is saying that goes like…”show me a man that is using and abusing women and I will show you a man who has been dating for a while. He has been learned well.”

    Thirty and something successfull bachelor does not fuck young hotties in a a hopeless search for the ONE. He fucks them to ENJOY young, nice body and sweet feminine energy. He uses his maturity, wisdom, resources and relative freedom/discipline to navigate SM to his satisfaction. I am one of them.

    I am 39 and “mature” – 30 and something women simply do not exist for me. Frankly the only time they existed was when I was 23. I fucked some mature pussies in a row out of curiosity. If I remember correctly I thought that those women would be more feminine and accopmlished or some other bullshit. Nope. Youg women were, are and will always be, much more carefree, spirited, feminine and easy going. They are not facing the horror of the wall and relating neuroses.

    Young women are only women that actually matter for me in terms of sex and realtionship. It might change with age. Maybe in my 50-ties we might give a chance to some women in her thirties, who knows.

  40. The intellectual level of her following shows: “He lost me after the first chart”…

    The sad thing about women like Jenny is how they rationalize away the only path out of their future misery, namely, recognizing the error of their ways, epiphany or not.

    As for personal attack, the cruelty I’ve experienced from women all my life would be enough motivation to go postal, but instead, I do enjoy their company.

  41. This has been a great post Rollo, including the comments (which isn’t the case for many blogs). I’ll see if I can whip up a quick response in the next few days.

  42. “Like yeah like thanks for the nice shout out, like what’s hypergamy and everything? That sounds like really like smart and everything….”

  43. Apologies for the off-topic question, can anyone point me to a resource that address financial divorce defense?

    I am currently happily married, however, I am not nearly foolish enough to believe that it will *definitely* last forever.

    If that day comes, and we end up getting divorced, I would like to be in the best position that I can be in regard to keeping as much of the assets as possible.

    I have been unable to find any info on this topic; although there is a TON of info for guys who are in the middle of a divorce.

  44. “men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order.”

    Haha, yup, that’s us ladies! However, do not mistake us for people who give a fuck. Reality, especially for women, is a bitter pill to swallow! This is going to increasingly become the norm. The femcentric order is about to be turned on it’s head…men, through the manosphere, are learning that, “There is no spoon!”

  45. Thanks Rollo –

    Watched Blue Valentine. I understand better what you are getting at. What a train wreck! In reality she is far too attractive to have settled for such a pathetic beta, it would probably never have really happened. As far as I can tell the only girls who spend that much time with such a total beta are far less good looking. But the movie does illustrate and clarify a lot. I’m glad I watched it after reading your book and from a better informed point of view. I wonder if the producers intended this?

  46. @George, you should read the back story about Blue Valentine:

    It almost wasn’t made due to lack of funding.


    Before filming the marriage dissolution between the main characters, Gosling and Williams prepared by renting a home, bringing their own clothing and belongings, buying groceries with a budget based on their characters’ incomes, filming home movies and taking a family portrait at a local Sears with the actress who played their daughter, and staging out arguments.[4][6] Cianfrance visited the actors and assisted them in building tension while remaining in character: “One night he told Gosling to go into Williams’ bedroom and try to make love to her. Gosling, soundly rejected, ended up sleeping on the couch.”

  47. ” I think it’s safe to presume the FI looked much different in 350 BC.”

    At that time in Egypt neither the state nor the religion (much the same thing) took any interest in marriage, it was strictly an arrangement between individuals. The FI held enough sway that virgin was not a concept in the culture and women could freely choose their husbands (although I’m sure family pressure played a role). Divorce could be initiated by women and was both easy and nonstigmatized.

    But, as life was hard, life was dominated by men performing hard labor who had the upper hand in broader society and filled all important positions of power.

    About 25% of women chose husbands who were at least their father’s age.

  48. I’m 31 years old, and have been Red Pill for about 9 years now. It’s amazing at my current age to watch women in the same age bracket flail when they are presented with these SMV facts. A girl (27) I was seeing recently found this chart and asked me to explain it to her. I gave her a somewhat thorough explanation, and the look on her face was priceless. She literally could not handle what was being presented. I could see in her mannerisms that an epiphany had occurred….instant regret for her choices within the past decade, and looming dread for what was to come.

    I don’t go out of my way to explain the Crimson Arts to women. I think it is an exercise in futility to present these hard truths to the opposite sex. Even vaguely explaining this chart with positive non-inflammatory language causes women like mine or Ms. Bahn to have verbal conniptions about what’s being presented. But it validates everything I have read and practiced when it comes to the Red Pill. It truly is satisfying and enlightening to watch women’s reactions to this.

  49. re: “you should be able to prove it with all women”

    Arguments by fiat don’t fly here. “All men should be able to pick up all women all the time” is a strawman, at best.

  50. To the unenlightened, a pragmatist looks, from a distance, like engaging in circular logic “it works because it works.” The missing ingredient for the unenlightened, barring revelation, is empiricism.

  51. Marriage in Aristotle’s time is not relevant to marriage in a culture that has gone through the industrial revolution and is now in a developed capitalist phase. Women had no options in those past eras and life was hard. Marriage was often about resources and survival. That is not the case now. I know biology hasn’t changed but the social environment has. Massive capital accumulation and wealth creation has changed societal relations beyond recognition to pre-industrial times. Nothing short of civilizational collapse will set things back (and that may happen given modern politics).

    My point remains though. For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side. Yes, you can fuck them to your hearts delight if your game is tight enough. But if you are a later 30s guy or older and you want to marry that early 20s low N girl AND she is hot, your chances are small.

    As for other countries and MMV, yes there is some truth to the claim that there are less social taboos against older men younger women pairings. However, after traveling through Europe and SEA, in my experience to say that those pairings are the norm is an exaggeration. They happen but you still see assorted mating around age as the norm. That seems to be the consequence of prosperity and female sexual liberation which is near ubiquitous in 1st world and developing countries.

    So if you want to marry a Jennifer Flavin or a Catherine Zeta Jones when she is in her twenties and you are 20 years older, you better be elite. If not choose your 22 year old wife when you are between 26 and 29. Don’t wait till you’re older. Stats are not on your side.

  52. Rollo,
    Your analyses seem to end at age 50.
    Being older than 50 myself, and having dated women older than 50, I’m interested in observations and theory on mating behavior past the age of 50.

    Something I have observed is women older than 50 reverting to an AF strategy. Perhaps after menopause, the ‘biological alarm clock’ is no longer relevant. They often have provisioning on line at that age courtesy of exes, the State and a lifetime of resource accumulation with the result that BB is less compelling.

    I’m curious about a second epiphany and the resulting behaviors. I suspect that what typically happens is not a second BB stage, but rather simply a dedication to spinster cat lady life after the second AF carousel whirl proves as problematic as the first one.

  53. Rollo.

    This is just a suggestion. I read your blog a lot and there is a LOT of good material. It becomes a bit too much to take and confusing sometimes. I wonder if you would be able to create a type of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs for women when it comes to men? And pin down the core tenants of a woman’s psyche in a diagram format based off your own understanding. Summarizing the information in diagram format.
    Like you did with the SMV chart.

  54. @Jacklabear

    Men after 50 still NEED sex. Women, however, enter menopause which eliminates any residual sex drive and causes a rapid masculinization of facial features. If you are married to a post menopausal woman, you’re supposed to go with the program by being a good grandpa: wear cardigan sweaters and baggy polyester double knit slacks, and dispense sweets to children. Sex is supposed to be as icky to you as it now is to her.

    The way out is to insist from the get-go that she treat her medical condition. She must take supplemental estrogen, buy the jumbo tube of KY, never cut her hair below shoulder length, keep toned and flexible, continue to dress provocatively, and to be receptive to a reasonable frequency of sex – even if she has to fake her enthusi – as well as any other -asm.

    You OTOH, need to keep fit, game her, provide for her, and run soft dread.
    Soft dread is key. The envy of other women is a potent aphrodisiac and makes the charade for her worth playing.

  55. George, music may have been written by mostly men, but you can see a definite change in the songs women were willing to sing. A song like Stronger Than Pride would probably not be done by a woman singer today. at least not by anybody that got any significant amount of radio time.
    Women and girls and even some men have always said that girls mature faster than boys. Even up to the teens and 20s, females are claimed to be more mature at a certain age. So it should be a good fit to follow what they say, until you actually do date a woman younger. Then you’re being immature.

  56. bbb

    October 13th, 2014 at 8:15 pm


    “Men after 50 still NEED sex. Women, however, enter menopause which eliminates any residual sex drive …”

    That is a meme I have seen in the ‘sphere’ more than once, but it is counter to my experience. Every menopausal woman I have dated has been plenty horny, as well as more orgasmic than any younger woman I’ve sampled.
    A menopausal woman is the perfect date: no period, no fertility, low drive to land a provider husband and no kids at home.

  57. Jacklabear

    Not a meme. You’ve apparently been lucky to be with women who defy medical science and/or are great at faking it.

  58. Nope bbb Jack is not defying medical science. Post menopausal women can be either hornier or lose libido or it has not effect and there are plenty of women in each group. It is quite the mystery.

  59. @bbb

    From my experience I believe you are mistaken. I’m only one man, a pebble on the beach, but my experience is long enough and broad enough for me to trust the opposite of what you seem to think. Numerous older women have told me the same including my mother who passed at the age of 76, one of my grand mothers, a woman I’m close with currently who is 69, and various others. They all were or are more comfortable talking openly and honestly about the subject, maybe because they have nothing to lose. I’ve also often wondered if women become more openly sexually aggressive as they get older because they loose inhibitions due to less fear of slut shaming or perhaps because their estrogen levels drop effectively raising testostrone. Certainly they experience some physiological difficulties such as tissue deterioration and thinning and loss of lubrication, but the passion is very definitely there.

  60. There is no confusion about why all men prefer early twenties ladies.

    It’s not 22 hotness that is better than 30.
    It’s the lack of 8 YEARS of baggage 22 has over the 30.

    Jenny said it… “less damaged”.
    This Jenny article is a primal scream of the realization that 8 years of female hypergamy DOES NOT yield more Marriage/Relationship value. ALL females NEED their sacrifice of time for knowledge and self fun (alpha fucks) to yield a better outcome.

    Imagine the former models realizing that Men never cared for anything more than attractiveness and innocence . AND that getting older IS destroying the commodities they once had in abundance.

    The hamster can’t allow the cold reality that it’s always a downhill slide from 22 to be true. Otherwise why learn anything? More time and more knowledge equals less attractiveness.

    The female mind can’t accept it. So in reality feminism is the justification for a woman to deny nature.

  61. Just one thought to female hamster. We are saying here that the strategy of women is stupid. NOPE. It is the selecting process of evolution in work. It is everything but stupid.

    Every businessman knows that when he wants to make the best catch, he has to be in situation, in which he has more power and freedom like his opponent. It greatly helps when his opponent is under some pressure..and desperately needs to make this deal. In such a situation the businessman can obtain the best prize/quality ratio.

    Young men between puberty and early 30 are under hard influence of drugs (testosterone). Moreover they are conditiond by feminine society to live as a blind slave for woman. They are desperate and stupid – easy prey. Majority of them are simply defenceless, they stand no chance against woman. Evolution wants it this way – male display female chooses. Male should not have the luxury of choice, he is not supposed to have an option to decide whether to display/court females or not. He simply must have to do this, otherwise he is suffering. His hormones make it very hard for him to push him back into the rat race.

    However, women in the same age bracket, have the most power/freedom in their very lives. So THIS is the age for woman to make her best catch. And they are living that way. They are doing their best to catch/enslave the best genes they could. This is the real reason behind their “cock carousel”. Majority of young women in their teens or early to late twenties..are at least 5. By early thirties they turn into 3/4. To cut is short – when she wants to cacth her best genes, she has to do it in her twenties. Her twenties are not the age for second best – beta provider, it is the age for the bargain of her life. It is the age for ALPHA!

    So she conforms herself around the man with best genes and she tries to get him into commitment. And many times she succeeds. I see many handsome men with ugly harridans. With age this difference becomes even more obvious. Their wives used to be maybe 5 or 6 in their twenties. He was 7 with potential to turn into 8. This was the time when she cought him..she popped out two children in a row and now..she has him.

    When we look at the specification of women who enter their mid to late thirties..many times wee see the attractive ones. They already had their pick, but they still hoped that somethning “better” will come around. They were 8/9 in their teens and twenties. They have power back then! According to my experience – beautifull woman are able to retain her hotness to mid to late thirties. Than they turn into … 4 or 5.

    Their counterparts – bachelors, were 6 or 7 when young. But they were desperate due to hig T, inexperienced, sexually obsessed, naive, etc. Easy prey. They have NONE power, but desperation and occasional luck.

    Now – the hormonal influence is weaker, they have exeprience, they know women to some degree. They watch their married friends living the pitiable existence of whipped worhorse for their lazy ugos. They watch beautifull women from their youth with tons of power…slowly turning into unfuckable bunch of meat with neuroses.

    They are coming to realization that the best thing woman can give them is her pussy, feminine energy and easy going personality. They realize that all power women have its roots in … her young flesh and their dick!

    Women are for the REST, enjoyment..not for work. So they enjoy women, young, easygoing, positive women. They travel with them, fuck them, laugh with them…

    Then mature women enter the scene – and mature women still want to catch them and make another horse/slave from them. They want to pressure them to spend their life working and slaving for their ass? They might have succeeded when our bachelor were young, naive and unexperienced. But now? Good luck mommies..

  62. While I would agree that female beauty tends to peak between 20 and 22, it has been my experience that a noticeable degree of their enchanting lighthearted mirth and excitement is already starting to change when compared to an 18 or 19 year old.

    There is a reality of emotional feedback, and while we all like to think that we bring a lot of unique things to dating/sex/love there is nothing so unique as that which is actually unique.

    If you’re a 9 in terms of game and sexual acumen and she’s young there’s a decent chance you’re the first 9 she’s had. Or at least that she hasn’t encountered a few facets of what you bring to the table, with each year that gets much less likely. If you’re average or worse, you do the math.

    The more experience she has had the less excitement (or even amazement if you’re nailing it) you can generate in her, you can still have a lot of fun without that popping of her emotional alpha cherry, but it’s a powerful feeling…..hell men become habituated in the same way (to a lesser degree) in a way these young ones snap you out of it…..Guess I’m an innocence vampire…still I treat their innocence gentle, girls often eviscerate betas for their innocence.

  63. s.r., 1:56 p.m.:

    “My point, I think that your SMV graph would look different if it just measured MMV. … The percentage of men who marry women more than 8 years younger than them is low; less than 8%.”

    Expressed married market value maybe, if we assume an efficient market.

    Alternatively, if we assume that the marriage market reflects rigging, (e.g., Rollo’s F.I. concept, which imposes conditions via male and female shaming) then we have to look at intrinsic MMV of those reflecting our point of view. For we have moved on from progressive feminist market rules, and really don’t give a fuck what expectations this or that proto-feminist says we should want. In this latter case, 8-10 years difference is nothing, particularly in the case of a middle-aged man. Another way of putting this is that not only do we *not* want to be in s.r.’s 92% (see above), we don’t want to be in his supposed elite 8%. Who gets up in the morning — to actually do something — hoping to be in the 8%? Most of us spend our days seeking or living in conditions that are 1-2%. So who cares what the 92% are doing?

    Sure, the middle aged man may have prog-feminist friends who attempt to set him up with ‘age-appropriate’ women and good for them. But any guy offering utility, in a physical package that has not degraded, will have women 8-10 years younger saying, “I thought you were out of my league and only dating younger women.”

    Thus my view is that Rollo’s graph understates the SMV ask-buy spread for men quite severely if it is adjusted for male utility, personal and social development, and physical fitness. Women, generally, do not fare as well over time in such areas as asset accumulation (financial utility), skills/talents/competencies/social leadership, and physical fitness. One reason they don’t is demonstrated in Jenny’s piece: her core assumption is that a) her real career is the nurturing of her personality; b) her “experience, success, volatility (?), ambition and complexity” — none of which are achievements having any value — “experience” is not per se an achievement — are supposed to qualify her for marriage with her target man audience.

    Really, what she’s saying is that she has an available sexual apparatus, and that her “experience” should make her interesting to some guy who’s just spent 10 or 20 years working 80 hours a week to get established in a profession and a community — and that she’s willing to keep house for him and breed at his financial and emotional risk. Meanwhile her target man audience considers “keeping house” among the easier problems humanity has ever solved. These men can’t get enough quiet time because every single woman of like background is thrusting her sexual favors at him. Their eyes are open as the first wave of divorces crashes through their friends’ worlds. They’re about as turned on by flakey 30 year-old drama queens talking about their “feelings” as they are Leave it to Lucy reruns. They know a desperate lane-changer when they see one (i.e., they discount the lane-changer’s professions of love by 75% because they see panic, not infatuation, in their urgent “I love you’s”). They have been dating for 20 years now and they find it highly programmatic and repetitive; when life assumes apparently hard-wired patterns, a capacity to bend on one knee in order to provide Jenny’s Disney romantic fantasy is fled.

    So anyway, I think the SMV curves squeeze the spread if we adjust for men who actually construct a life over time, versus men who (like Jenny, or women who treat their careers and lives as pleasant diversions prior to pulling their SAHM lever, and cashing out of the SMV at the expense of a man) just float.

    It reminds me of my favorite logic flow diagram when designing software: the “And then a miracle happens!” fuzzy blob in the middle. Where is Jenny’s miracle, dammit!

    Sorry, when you see that, the meeting’s over.

  64. “Women and girls and even some men have always said that girls mature faster than boys.”
    Waters my dear old thing,a good deal of cheap fun can be had by rephrasing that saggy, incontinent and annoying cliché and putting it to its regurgitators e.g.
    “Women stop developing much sooner than men. So do turtles. And cows.”

    The behaviour then forks into more-or-less intense but inevitably incoherent Indignation (thanks Rollo), or flappy goldfish open-mouthing if they’re bright enough to actually hear and understand what has just been said.
    The good thing is it’s clean and can be done in any company.

  65. s.r., 6:07, still celebrating the average and shaming (and misrepresenting) those on the right-hand side of the bell curve:

    “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side. Yes, you can fuck them to your hearts delight if your game is tight enough.”

    This makes complete sense if one believes that a bell curve distribution is destiny, that social convention is law, and that skeptical men (in respect of the SMP, female hypergamy, and credential-matching mating) are mere pleasure-seeking PUAs.

    It makes complete sense if all male behavior and achievement must regress to the mean.

    It’s cautionary wisdom for any man incapable of choosing his relationships, but instead must receive whatever lowest-common-denominator set of female behaviors provides.

    It’s insightful direction for all men who are unable to distinguish between finding one female companion (or a small handful of companions) of like mind, and some weird bias that says men only get what other men get because men get what they get.

    Oddly, it is a restatement of Jenny’s thesis: because assortive mating is (should be) law, and she’s hoisted her “I finally know what I want and I’m available for matrimony” petard, the mass of men will respond positively if they know what’s good for them. So s.r. is restating Jenny’s illogical thesis, which is contradicted by Jenny’s experience.

  66. Here’s Jenny’s take on Gone Girl, which she terms “excellent” (I agree).

    She rifs, though, satirically on the life strategies of the sociopathic heroine. These insights form fun! ironic! suggestions for amazing! girls everywhere.

    Takeaways include:

    a. men are doofuses who can be manipulated into self-destruction through good sex, promises of good sex, archaic notions of patrimony and obligation to offspring, and divorce (should they suggest leaving Manhattan).

    b. always have a Plan B man, for those lane-changing moments. He’s the guy with lots of money who spends his life thinking a Gone Girl will eventually come around and give him some.

    c. real estate and jewels are the lasting virtues of marriage; if they’re threatened, for fuck’s sake, immediately get divorced and keep them for yourself.

    d. complex, volatile women (“psycho ass bitches”, in Jenny’s argot) are really attractive to men, who — did we mention? — are gullible doofuses.

    I agree with Jenny that the movie instructs as she summarizes. And, as she implies by her humor, that the movie is in the end a satirical view of our capacity to engage in “gloriously dysfunctional relationships” directed by psycho ass bitches.

    Caution: diction alert, as the difference between ‘elicit’ and ‘illicit’ is ignored in this monograph.

  67. @BV re: “Thus my view is that Rollo’s graph understates the SMV ask-buy spread for men quite severely if it is adjusted for male utility, personal and social development, and physical fitness.”

    I agree, again. I think Rollo was being overly fair to women, precisely to avoid (to an extent) accusations of overstating.

  68. re: s.r.’s point that if “you want to marry that early 20s low N girl AND she is hot, your chances are small.”

    Almost entirely, the reason your chances of snagging your own unicorn are so small is because unicorns are so rare. If the world were teeming with hot low N girls, you would have much better chances regardless of which side of the 80/20 of 92/8 curve you are on.

  69. @Tam the Bammer, re: ““Women stop developing much sooner than men.”

    This concept was actually some kind of ancient meme, although I do not have a plethora of Authorities’ coattails at hand to clutch. Even at work, since my 3 x 5s went the way of my physical Rolodex, my references to articles tend to reside in scattered near-Desktop folders labeled refs, oldrefs, olderrefs, JOC2013article_refs, etc.

    Yea, much like tadpoles whose limbs have not yet protruded, women were considered to be underdeveloped in the protrusion department.

  70. s.r. translation:

    Men wear socks. Walmart sells more socks than anyone; their average price is $7.99. Odds are you will wear Walmart socks. (Unless you’re a fetishist who picks up a pair of used cashmere socks at the Goodwill.) Your preferences, choices, and Brooks Bros. charge card notwithstanding, get used to the idea of wearing $7.99 socks from Walmart.

  71. @jf12, interesting study, bookmarking.

    A study Cell Press found oxytocin-responsive brain cells that are necessary for female social interest in male mice during estrus, the sexually receptive phase of their cycle.


    “Our findings suggest that social interactions that stimulate oxytocin production will recruit this newly identified circuit to help coordinate the complex behavioral responses elicited by changing social situations in all mammals, including humans,”

    Kind of puts a different spin on the “Looks are the ONLY thing” assertions from Siirtyrion doesn’t it?

  72. Until relatively recently, the age of consent (at least for marriage) was pretty much the age at which Nature declares that a girl has become a young woman.

    One reason for this is because, after this transition point, her hormones start shrieking at her to fuck and have babies, and she also matures much earlier than boys, so that she is able to take care of the children that she is now able to bear.

    (This article has interesting information about ages of maturity: )

    Another reason is that the longer her biological-emotional needs are not met, the more brittle (for lack of a better word) a young woman becomes, and the more emotional baggage she collects.

    This brittleness and baggage then start to erode her “joie de vivre … exultation of spirit … whimsical playfulness, flirtiness and passing innocence”.

    “While I would agree that female beauty tends to peak between 20 and 22, it has been my experience that a noticeable degree of their enchanting lighthearted mirth and excitement is already starting to change when compared to an 18 or 19 year old.”

    And, to the extent that it is even possible for a woman to bond to a man, the probability is highest (and perhaps is only possible) when she is young and with N = 0.

    A third reason is the “bloom of youth”, which starts at the approach of the completion of puberty and lasts for only a few years. It makes ordinary girls pretty, and beautiful girls extraordinary.

    This is also why the Aging Pussy Cartel keeps pushing makeup on girls. The bloom of youth cannot shine through spackle, which obscures (and even erases, through toxic chemicals) the otherwise vibrant difference, and makes young women resemble older women.

    And, despite what some online sources claim, it was not prevalent in the past for parents to say (or for society to approve): “Honey, our little girl has become a young woman, and I just had a brilliant idea! Let’s ’empower’ our hot and horny daughter to be ridden around our village / town for eight to ten years, so that she may ‘experience life’, instead of marrying someone like that fine man with a good reputation *, who has established himself and is looking to start a family, now, with a fertile and unpolluted ** woman whose limited childbearing years are all in front of her.”

    Before the environment was inundated with endocrine disrupting chemicals, completion of puberty used to occur almost only around the mid-teens and, at that age, pregnancy (assuming proper physical development) is safe and recovery is remarkably fast (especially compared to how a woman’s ability to heal diminishes as she ages).

    Also, the women with huge families who are still popping children out easily in their late thirties started quite young, while those in their age group who chose the career path find themselves looking to IVF for their first children.

    Notice that our present society in no way tries to keep a young woman from having her biological needs met, with the only constraint being that she may do so only with those who are not old enough to have the maturity or capability to do anything other than pump-and-dump.

    These “approved” males are specifically the ones who cannot provide the leadership needed to create a relationship that would guide her to prosper, instead of accelerating her toward becoming a slut.

    * I mentioned this article before, which talks about alpha, beta, …, and natural male hierarchies, in non-artificial and unmanipulated societies: no-maam.blogspot[]ca/2012/06/keynesian-sexual-marketplace[]html

    ** For marriage or other permanent relationships, in addition to avoiding an “Alpha Widow” (original story: www[]dailymail[]co[]uk/femail/article-2747077/Wife-admits-let-fantasies-past-lovers-ruin-marriage[]html ), or just not wanting sloppy seconds (or sloppy umpteenths), here are two more reasons why the most relevant categories are N = 0 and N > 0.

    1) You don’t want some other man’s sperm swimming around in your woman’s brain (facetious, but close enough):

    Male Microchimerism in the Human Female Brain: www[]plosone[]org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0045592

    Male microchimerism in women without sons: www[]amjmed[]com/article/S0002-9343%2805%2900270-6/abstract

    2) Sperm from a previous man may turn out to be able to influence future children by a different man, through mechanisms similar to these (from NON-human studies):

    Revisiting telegony: Offspring inherit an acquired characteristic of their mother’s previous mate: www[]bonduriansky[]net/publications[]htm

    Telegony, the sire effect and non-mendelian inheritance mediated by spermatozoa: a historical overview and modern mechanistic speculations: www[]ncbi.nlm.nih[]gov/pubmed/20626678

  73. Another fine reference, previously discussed, finally published.
    Birnbaum G, Ein-Dor T, Reis H, Segal N. 2014. Why do men prefer nice women? Gender typicality mediates the effect of responsiveness on perceived attractiveness in initial acquaintanceships. Pers Soc Psychol Bull.,10, 1341-1353.

    Researchers confirm, again, still, as always, that male cuddly-wuddliness, male giving, male caring, male loving, male concern, male niceness, is a disattractant for human females. And seemingly only human females. Human females are extremely messed-up. The same researchers hope and speculate that there is an island of lost unicorns, somewhere as yet undiscovered, where human females like nice guys.

  74. “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side. Yes, you can fuck them to your hearts delight if your game is tight enough.”

    Oh no!!!! Statistics aren’t on my side??!!!

    I’m so fucking threatened!

    “MARRY” “…fuck them to your hearts delight…”

    Planning to suffer “oneitis” for some broad that’s been rode hard and put up wet?

    Mark Twain said – “There are lies, there are damned lies, then there are statistics”

    Then there are those who thumb suck statistics because they are too WEAK to make their own choices.

  75. “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side.

    Actually they are. Even Aunt Giggles acknowledges that, statistically, most women want to marry at between the ages of 27-29 (precisely my graphs metric) and the majority express a preference to marry men between 3-5 years older than themselves.

    Jenny’s lament is actually on the late side of this equation, but still serves as a good example. Why do you suppose she isn’t looking for an LTR / Marriage with a guy 3-5 years younger than herself? Or even her same age?

    By the “Looks are the ONLY thing that matters” metric it would follow that she ought to be writing ‘woe is me, younger men don’t find me attractive’ articles – but no, it’s over the mature men who don’t find her to be a suitable match.

    Why do you suppose that is?

  76. Whenever I hear people talk about how a younger woman would neither be interested in, nor able to talk to, an older man, I am reminded of a young woman whose nickname was tick-toc.

    She was the daughter of a close friend, and one of the tiny handful of truly nice females that I have ever seen. For quite some time, she had to be given extra presents around holidays, because she insisted on sharing them with her brothers, from the time she was around four. After a while, she figured out that her brothers were only being kind to her and didn’t really want her dolls, but her spirit of giving never changed.

    While she was at a family gathering when she was around five or so, she decided that she really didn’t want to do something, so she stepped way out of character and threw a humongous tantrum that ended with her lying on the ground with her feet in the air, so that she couldn’t be made to walk.

    Her father just picked her up around her ankles, and as he walked she swung a little from side to side. After a few seconds, she started giggling and laughing and then shouting “tick-toc” at the top of her lungs. From that point on, until she became too big, her favorite pastime was to be swung around and tossed around in every possible way.

    In addition to being very sweet, she was also a really goofy kid.

    Later, when she was around her mid-teens, her father had some business at my university, so he asked me to keep an eye on her. I decided to give her a tour, and as we were walking around, she noticed a man surrounded by a bunch of young women.

    At that moment, she must have thought “those bitches aren’t going to steal my man”, because she turned into one of those shape-shifters from a science fiction movie.

    She shook out her hair so that it fell almost down to her waist, and then her whole demeanor changed. She became taller; her walk changed; her posture changed; her facial expressions changed; the way that she talked changed; everything changed.

    As she walked up to him, she became a sophisticated young woman who flawlessly joined his conversation. There is no doubt in my mind that she would have pulled this off without any problem whatsoever. Her ploy failed only because he was one of my graduate students, and he eventually saw me standing there staring at her with an unbelieving look on my face.

  77. The Nice Daughters hypothesis, as stated here, is the symplectic partner of the Sexy Sons hypothesis. Maybe the reason so many men are so nice is because those traits are passed down to their daughters, who then grow up to give births and raise children with motherly care, without being murdered young for being bitchy.

  78. And another, validating women’s SMV peak at age 24
    Antfolk et al. 2014. Women’s and men’s sexual preferences and activities with respect to the partner’s age: evidence for female choice. Evolution & Human Behavior, in press.

    Understatement of the year:
    “men’s heterosexual activity likely is constrained by female choice.”

    Snide observation ofthe year: Look! A whole journal publishing what Siirtyrion says doesn’t exist.

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