Not surprisingly the latest “anti-rape” Yes Means Yes law just passed for California university campuses has been the topic du jour in the manosphere this week. I usually like to allow mainstream news like this to percolate in the ‘sphere before throwing my hat into the ring, but I think it’s gotten a lot of mulling over on various blogs now.
Just as a point of order, I’ll repeat that as a policy I never do politics, religion or race on Rational Male – unless those topics relate to intergender relations or the interests of red pill truths and/or the manosphere in general.
That said it’s impossible not to consider the politics, social perspective and the underlying motivations of this new law. Dalrock has already done three posts to this effect, and I wouldn’t want to take any of that thunder away from him. So if you’re wanting a more in depth social / religious perspective I suggest heading over there and read his last posts.
For the most part Dal dissects the Ezra Klein article Roosh vlogs about here regarding how terrible, but ‘necessarily terrible’ this new law is. I’m not sure what I could add here that hasn’t already been debated with regard to speculating about its long term effects, however I do think this law is less about rape prevention, or even the redefining of ‘what rape is” and a lot more about the need for total control of both the male sexual imperative and optimal feminine hypergamy.
Although Yes Means Yes is law on California University campuses it is merely the first of many coming mandates with the latent purpose of legally mandating men’s cooperation with feminine hypergamy and women’s sexual pluralism (AFBB).
I could elaborate on the details of how Yes Means Yes is essentially worthless without some metric by which to document ‘consent’ at each stage of an intersexual encounter (yes, it’s in the law), but this would be pointless, because the actual intent of this law is to create an environment where men are led into a false sense of security with a woman as they move from stage to stage.
The Yes Means Yes law could also be called the You Better Be Pretty Damn Sure law. You Better Be Pretty Damn Sure she said yes. You Better Be Pretty Damn Sure she meant to say yes, and wasn’t consenting because she was scared, or high, or too tired of fighting. If you’re one half of a loving, committed relationship, then you probably can Be Pretty Damn Sure. If you’re not, then you better fucking ask.
The problem with Ezra’s scenario here is he’s presuming a baseline of two honest agents with each other’s mutual interest at heart, in rational discourse between both men and women in a “loving relationship” with no ulterior motives either in the now or in the future. Being ‘Pretty Damn Sure’ is not enough and that’s what makes YMY so dangerous. It presumes male guilt before, during and after any sex ever occurs, and Ezra knows this…
…men need to feel a cold spike of fear when they begin a sexual encounter.
Sadie Hawkins’ World
And thus we understand the latent purpose of this law – instilling fear in men. Nominally the law is about making men so fearful that they concede all aspects of any intersexual discourse to a feminine imperative. This is Sadie Hawkins’ world. One in which only women are allowed to make any intersexual approach to a man for fear that his doing so will be construed as rape, or an intent to rape, even before he initiates anything.
The goal of feminism is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality – Heartiste
The more a feminine-primary social order embraces, endorses and openly promotes feminine hypergamy as the normative, correct, social paradigm, the more it will be necessary to legally force men to comply with it.
As it stands now, the Feminine Imperative is having an increasingly difficult time enforcing its primacy through social conventions and popular culture shaming men into compliance with it. Increasingly men are becoming aware of the raw duplicity of open hypergamy and are becoming less and less cooperative with what really amounts to their participation in their own hypergamous cuckoldry – which women triumphantly crow about in as public a manner as is practical now.
A common refrain from the manosphere has been that the only reason a man should consider marriage is if he wanted to raise children – a functioning, cooperative, child-rearing environment being the only evident ‘advantage’ marriage offers men – but in light of potentially more laws cut from this cloth and the glaringly evident risks of having his children legally removed from him under the flimsiest of pretenses I can’t say as I agree with this anymore.
In Sadie Hawkins’ world there are no “advantages” for men in marriage – only liabilities enforced by fear.
It’s no longer about buying the cow when you can get the milk for free anymore. It’s about the cow milking itself and giving it away to Alpha Fucks in its peak years and then expecting you to buy her just before she’s gone completely dry. And all under the assumed risk of accusations of nonconsensual sex at her disposal should you choose not to comply at any time.
The latent purpose of Yes Means Yes is to lock feminine hypergamy into a legal mandate while ensuring fear (I should say Dread) is the motivator for men’s compliance in it.
Brave New Hypergamy
Deti is a permanent fixture in the manosphere, and though he doesn’t have his own blog, he regularly hit’s ’em out of the park with his comments here and on various other blogs.
Deti on Dalrock:
Proponents of “Yes means yes” also are Game deniers and Game haters. The funny thing is that this law will only increase Game and swell the prevalence of its practitioners. Jerks, players, and cads will be the only ones with the balls and the resolve to press forward. Less adept men will give up, because they cannot run the risks of an encounter going bad. They can’t risk criminal records, loss of jobs, loss of family, loss of money and time. The risks aren’t worth the puny rewards.
What marriage is now is what social interaction between men and women will become – a man merely looking at a girl too long will bring a complaint to police, and a man will have to answer merely for his gaze. He could be fined or even imprisoned.
The proponents of Yes means Yes think it will reduce Game and assault; will remove the ambiguities. they think it will foster and encourage the growth, development and proliferation of healthy relationships and marriages. They think it will create safer places for women to seek relationships (or not). It will do none of these things.
“Yes means yes” will only increase Game because the only men willing to try will be those with proven successful sexual track records. It will only create more ambiguity. It will only cause more “good men” and providers to drop out or hoard their earnings, refusing to put them to the service of women. It will leave only the jerks, thugs, cads and players in the SMP as the only men willing to navigate the sexual minefield. These men won’t marry because they don’t have to. The men who would be willing to marry won’t be in the marketplace because they dropped out, and they won’t prepare to marry in the first place because they never got the signals to prepare for it and there’s no point in trying anyway. Marriage rates will continue sliding; the age at first marriage for men and women will continue inching up.
Women will continue to get pumped and dumped. The unhappy ones, ones who regret the encounters or they didn’t go exactly as hoped or planned, will quickly and quietly drop their “lack of consent” claims when video recordings of the encounters in question surface, together with smiling photos and confirmatory texts. A few such women and their institutions of higher learning will be defendants in defamation lawsuits. Some of those videos will make their way to the internet; most won’t.
Welcome to our brave new sexual world. I think that our interlocutors really ought to think this all the way through before supporting it and deciding this is what they want.
There’s an idea that the work around to Yes Means Yes is simply to have sex with a girl off campus. Ergo the incidence of “campus rape” declines and the law is spun as a victory for feminists and evidence of a successful enactment of a functional law.
Yes Means Yes will be a ‘success’ insofar as it curbs campus rape because it is uniquely based on male fear. Again, from Klein’s piece:
To work, “Yes Means Yes” needs to create a world where men are afraid.
Read this again, “…to create a WORLD where men are afraid.”
Ezra believes this ‘useful fear’ is a horrible-but-necessary tool with which to fight what ever definition of rape he subscribes to, but what he doesn’t realize is that fear has uses and implications which go well beyond rape prevention.
The ‘big deal’ is the latent purpose of the law and the motivating ideologies behind it. The law won’t actually curb rape, but it will be successful in creating a world where men are afraid by ambiguously and progressively redefining what rape is and what harassment should encompass – all while legally enforcing men’s compliance in feminine hypergamy.
It’s just as easy to say, ‘well, men will simply not cooperate and go their own way”, and while that would certainly predicate what Deti is proposing, the most salient part is that this law has already successfully changed the gender landscape to one based on fear of the Feminine Imperative. For all my female critics decrying my advocating men use Dread (or at least not discouraging it passively) in their relationships, you can see here in stark contrast that it is overwhelmingly the feminine which is not only comfortable in using dread, but openly mandating legal assurances of its use.
The Feminine Imperative is so fixated upon the insecurities inherent to women’s individual capacity to optimize their hypergamy, so entitled are women to an Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks sexual strategy, it will enact legal mandates to ensure that optimization.
When I wrote Fem-Centrism and The Feminine Reality, I took a lot of shit for being a conspiracist in making the assertions I made:
…the feminine imperative is normalized as the CORRECT goal of any conflict. A woman’s existential imperative, her happiness, her contentment, her protection, her provisioning, her empowerment, literally anything that benefits the feminine is not only encouraged socially, but in most cases mandated by law. Ironically, most doctors require a wife’s written consent to perform a vasectomy on a married man; not because of a legal mandate, but rather to avoid legal retaliations and damages from a wife. By hook or by crook, her imperative is the CORRECT one.
Doesn’t sound so crazy now does it?
A few other things to consider; just this week we’ve seen companies like FaceBook and Apple offer a female-only benefit of freezing women’s eggs for future insemination to its potential female employees. On the face this perk is intended to attract ‘professional’ women to the tech field by assuring them they can eventually “have it all” – once they’ve conquered the “male-dominated work world®”.
While that may help assuage the bad PR the tech industry has with finding any women to work for them, the latent purpose is still ensuring feminine hypergamy and the goals of a female-primary social order can be fulfilled, regardless of how realistic those expectations are.
Also consider my favorite whipping girl Emma Watson’s appeal to the United Nations a few weeks ago initiates a campaign which asks men to take “The HeForShe Commitment” pledge: “Gender equality is not only a women’s issue, it is a human rights issue that requires my participation. I commit to take action against all forms of violence and discrimination faced by women and girls.” This essentially distills to the common “lets you and him fight” convention women will use, but in this instance it amounts to a plea for Feminine Imperative compliant men to police the actions of noncompliant men.
When we consider these two recent developments along with the Yes Means Yes law, the veneer of the Feminine Imperative’s purpose comes off in ways which make it recognizable as the driving social paradigm of our time. The more that control is made obvious, the more a need for legal enforcement and male compliance will be necessary as societal efforts to enforce it break down.
freezing eggs perk…for future insemination
@mayleeasia has an opinion about it:
Not enough people have caught on to the fact that the laws they try to push under the banner of “gender equality” aren’t really equal. Imagine a guy trying to file a report for Yes Means Yes, he would be laughed out of the police station. We are quickly reaching a time where every interaction must be recorded in order to protect ourselves from the law being maliciously used against us. Now you can enjoy asking for a yes before you put your hands on her, before you kiss her, before you take her clothes off and before you penetrate.… Read more »
“The goal of feminism is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality – Heartiste”
That is, male heterosexuality. If you’re a male homosexual, go hog wild. You’re only a problem if you’re a heterosexual man.
[…] See the original post – Yes Means Fear […]
Ezra is a horrible-and-unnecessary tool.
Seriously, though, this is one way to tell a TradCon/So/Con from a true conservative – they have just as little understanding of the Law of Unintended Consequences/Perverse Outcomes as your garden variety liberal.
Why does Ezra Klein want men to live in fear?
It’s Rule 9.
The counter is Rule 4, if, as Twenties Mentor notes, you can ram it through somehow. I note that there have been some recent successes along this line. That’s what can happen when you push “equality” so hard people actually start to believe that’s what you want.
Deti is spot on with his post. These things won’t stop game aware and confident men because they know that women are physically and biologically wired to be turned on by alpha males and to have sex with them. Lots of men live in fear just because she could reject him, now to ask her for consensual sex doubles and triples that fear. I wonder if this sort of thing improves the overall alpha fucks / beta bucks part of female imperative because it makes it easier for her to spot men who are there for fucking and are actually… Read more »
YMY is coming to a marriage near you
The yes means yes law has a simple flaw. If no one says anything both are guilty of rape. Of course if they only prosecute men..that would be where men get hurt.
The funny thing is that it will make it easier for Red Pill guys with Game as some well-meaning good-looking Betas will be limiting their sexual encounters. Occasionally a uninitiated Natural might be caught in the fray of regret rape, but the full-on Players with formal Game teachings will thrive more than before. The law will create what the No-Fault-Divorce laws and other such “improvements” have done for marriage – it will destroy ever more healthy mating patterns and only cads will be the winners here. I don’t even consider the Alpha fucking college sluts the co-winners here – the… Read more »
A law should be enacted forcing women to be more honest and direct concerning their sexual desires and requests. All women should be legally required to administer blow jobs prior to any penetration and refusal to allow anal penetration should require mandatory jail time. She should be required to beg for it, “Fuck me! fuck me! I want you inside me…fuck me like an animal you bad ass!
Being serious now…
This is yet another attempt to legislate thought. Laws and courts have always primarily focused on facts and actions, actual damages, etc. this is a completely bullshit attempt to legislate thought or the lack of thought.
This is one step away from “yes means no”
I wouldn’t trust frozen eggs. You probably end up with defective children.
George: We already have that, so no new precedent or law would be required, simply changing a single character in existing law would suffice.
good post Rollo… if a bit rambling. I have stated elsewhere – the unintended consequences to these laws will be huge. I have a young son. Once he is old enough to attend College I will definitely inform him of the consequences of dating/copulating with fellow college student. To me it underscores the REAL problem with College now. Young men have NO incentive to select a future mate there anymore. And Aunt Giggles should be tracking this.. because if California gets it’s way… No more Hooking Smart advice will help the spinsters! In effect there is a state organization (the… Read more »
Flip: I’m putting you on ice. Cool Party! Let me break the ice. Revenge is a dish best served cold. The Ice Man cometh!
Expanding on my own prior comment at Dal’s place: There is a better than 50-50 chance this law, as applied, will be found to be unconstitutional by even more liberal Courts of Appeals, and certainly the conservative majority of the current US Supreme Court. And that is aside from the patent ambiguity of what the term “affirmative consent” in the law means (a legal redundancy: all consent is “affirmative” so that extra word must mean something else, but what?) The fault in this law is letting colleges sort out the standards for themselves without legal advice or training. (That Russian-style… Read more »
Re: Freezing eggs. The notion that a 45 year old uterus will be just as efficient at gestation as a 25 year old uterus is the real humor here, but the latent purpose behind this ‘benefit’ is just a publicity stunt. Essentially FaceBook and Apple are ready to give a $20,000 incentive to women to perform the same job as a man, and they don’t see the irony in the fact that the perk is a bonus to encourage women to perform a job they simply don’t have much interest in performing. I sincerely doubt that ‘professional’ women will educate… Read more »
@Dr. Fred, I find it ironic that the group of people who adamantly want the government out of their bedrooms and out of their uteruses are the same group who want to legislate the appropriate use of my penis.
You don’t get to ‘Yes Means Yes’ until you’ve spent a few decades internalizing ‘No Means No’.
YMY would never have happened had not men already accepted as just and fair the misandric notion that it was perfectly acceptable for a certain class of people to cruely dangle raw meat in front of a hungry dog and not even expect to get nipped much less get their hand bit clean off.
” Just re-outlaw all fornication and non-marital sex . . .”
One character, change a “1” to a “9”. Done.
The legal argument for it was accepted in raising the drinking age above the age of majority.
The shit of unintended consequences gathers mass and momentum as it rolls down hill.
“Essentially FaceBook and Apple are ready to give a $20,000 incentive to women to perform the same job as a man, and they don’t see the irony in the fact that the perk is a bonus to encourage women to perform a job they simply don’t have much interest in performing.” Good point. If the woman never had any intention of ever having kids or would be willing to wait until they were no longer employed with Apple or Facebook then it’s a trip to the doctors office and a 20 grand bonus from the employer. Women suck at tech… Read more »
Love the nod to Deti, Rollo. I copied that quote as well because it really lays it out. All this law does is optimize female hypergamy. It separates out the Betas more efficiently for individual women. Right now the 80:20 rule applies- 20% of men get 80% of the women. With this rule just 10% of men will get 90% of the women. It will be like the QB on Blue Mountain State- the Alphas will need a dedicated CC scheduler. This rule will reduce the market of men pursuing the stank- if you don’t immediately induce the tingles then… Read more »
@Ang Aamer writes:
good post Rollo… if a bit rambling
How ’bout Eugene O’Neill, Tennessee Williams and Ernest Hemingway?
re: “men need to feel a cold spike of fear when they begin a sexual encounter”
It is the “first of many coming” anti-beta law, and deliberately. The fearless men won’t be bothered to obtain actual consent. Soon, the asking will be illegal “if you don’t already know, then you cannot ask”.
Keep in mind that *any* rational reason for YMY was already in No Means No, which either wasn’t working or women didn’t like having to say no so much. I’m certain the *entire* reason for YMY is that they feel “Women shouldn’t have to say no”. In other words, the purpose of the law is to forestall, or stymie, the asking.
In every justification of YMY I’ve been looking, every single one pretends to believe women will do just as much asking as the men.
So, the next step after criminalizing asking from unwanted men will be to criminalize attractive men’s refusing.
@jf12: That is correct: all women everywhere are threatened and compromised by the prospect of having to say no. Look at the Amanda Taub article quoted and cited by Ezra Klein. She calls that the “woman tax”: the fear that every male a woman encounters anywhere and everywhere MAY be the next Ted Bundy, so she has to be nice just in case, adjust her clothes, force herself to encounter the male again, say yes when she means no, etc. etc.
Apparently it has been law for eight weeks with no prosecutions. Raise your hand if you believe zero drunk California coeds have had sex within the past eight weeks.
jf12- “I’m certain the *entire* reason for YMY is that they feel “’Women shouldn’t have to say no’ …” I suspect No Means No worked to well in that many men understood No to mean No and not some variation of try again. Since No is definitive the woman losses plausible deniability and thus her advantage of never ending ambiguity. I suspect YMY will generate similar results but with the added comfort of ambiguity as in “I said yes but not to exacty that.” Either way the requirement to read minds is now law in California. Ignorance of the law… Read more »
@Fred Flange, yes, Taub is one of the articles that presumes women give consent often and that women seek consent often. Both presumptions are very false indeed.
I know for a fact that YMY technically means that *any* libido-enhancing drugs, including estrogen cream or testosterone cream or *anything*, is technically undue influence – it artificially inflates the probability she will say yes.
So, since the law is already not working at all, can the lesbians cease high-fiving each other about decreasing heterosex?
During genital contact for the purpose of stimulation and satisfication, after obtaining consent for the contact, how many times per minute MUST the asker ask for ongoing consent?
1) For PIV, for every insertion?
2) For oral, “Don’t stop!” is NOT “Yes!”. He must stop, every time, and clear his mouth free to clearly ask (“Mfhmm?” doesn’t count as asking.).
More and more I want some excellent version of sex bots or VR sex to come. I say this as a guy who’s getting lots of hot young ass. A little bit I want it for me. Very much I want it for our beta brethren (yes they are our brothers and NO a sucker does not deserve to be betrayed) Mostly I want it for justice. Modern women are not useless to men, but they’re certainly trying their hardest to be. Beta boy engineers and computer scientists need to pick up the slack, meet these ladies half way. One… Read more »
I worked out a way to short circuit that whole scheme 45 years ago. “Snuggle naked with me. No sex. I like the body contact.” About 3/4s will come back gagging for it (her thinking is: “is there something wrong with me?”). The other 1/4? Well you got to snuggle naked with them.
ISIS has a different view. Yes? No? I don’t care what you want. It will be interesting to watch the clash of cultures.
YMY and similar laws won’t go anywhere in the long run. They won’t hold up in the courts, particularly if they are expanded to the non-academic world, and men are already beginning to sue colleges for abusive applications of biased rules. More pushback will come as opponents of such laws become more aware of and focused on the threat. Much of what’s going on with the YMY campaign is, like the race baiting surrounding the recent Missouri riots, part of an orchestrated attempt to gin up interest-group enthusiasm and general distraction ahead of the coming elections. Not to take anything… Read more »
“So, the next step after criminalizing asking from unwanted men will be to criminalize attractive men’s refusing.” Leaving aside the question of whether or not I am an attrative man (I don’t see it myself, but then I’m not a woman), my own experience in this field suggests that it would be a much more pleasant experience to shout, “It’s a fair cop. Take me to jail. Now!” than what they are likely to do to enforce “justice” on their own. They worry about saying no to men? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Nevermind a woman scorned… Read more »
From a GREAT essay by Zenpriest, written many years back. A prophet, this man was. The determination of criminality has shifted completely away from objective interpretation of events to subjective determination based entirely on the perceptions of the female. Behavior on the part of the female which could have been interpreted in the subjective experience of the male as an invitation or enticement to pursue her, the proverbial and inflammatory “she asked for it”, and which can turn really ugly if the woman changes the rules at the last moment and grabs for the maternal power postion of withholding what… Read more »
Found on a feminist site “radical wind” : PIV is always rape, ok?
Cops, cops, cops, cops .. why does everything to do with feminism eventually rout back to the cops? Don’t they understand that there are not, and can never be, enough cops, soldiers or even terminators in the world to even put a dent in a disenfranchised underclass of desperate young men bent on mayhem? Don’t they watch the news? “Oh well, just behave yourselves boys, and we might get around to you in a decade or so, once Princely Buttocksmasher III has tired of our luscious young .. but only if you obey our every command!” Trying to peel back… Read more »
Oh goody. Just read thro the thread (backwards of course) and Mgr. Flange has shown up. As at Dal’s, I strongly suspect that he’s going to be a millionaire, as that is ….. the right answer!!11!
“If you’re a male homosexual, go hog wild. You’re only a problem if you’re a heterosexual man.” and Ezra is …???? Let me guess .. no V.I. in the overnight creation of tens of thousands of “Lost Boys” there then eh?
Frozen eggs huh? Ladies, looks like you better make sure that damn’ Con-Ed bill hasn’t ever “just slipped my mind”.
Remember, the steady-Eddie beta comes after the alphas, who couldn’t give a shit about your debts, eggs, innermost hopes and dreams or anything else. No eggs, no Eddie, though.
FYI, yes there have been officially cases under “no means no” of oral “assault” in which the woman, after the fact, said, “I couldn’t bring myself to tell him to stop, because he was being so sweet in trying so hard …”
It’s not just the few women we have experience with, btw. The vast vast majority of women seldom give *enthusiastic* consent to anything, ever, except maybe cute shoes. Women envision themselves totally unrealistically. Women tend to be wet blankets on *anything* fun; it’s like their job. Let’s make the analogy of sex as a bonfire on the beach. The man brings the matches, the tinder, the initial spark, and the slow building with little twigs, sheltering it carefully to not mess it up or he’ll have to start all over, and he brings the big logs too, stacking them to… Read more »
@Badpainter, you may be right that “no means no” wasn’t ambiguous/deniable enough for women. Further, as Taub et al. complain loudly, “no means no” put the ball in the woman’s court, especially AFTER saying “no”: It’s *not* the strawman that she “has” to keep saying “no” unhappily ever after, but that now the onus is on her to grab his hand and put it on her whatever “I meant “No, not there, but here is fine.””
I agree Tam the Bam. There never be as you say, “enough cops, soldiers or even terminators in the world to even put a dent in a disenfranchised underclass of desperate young men bent on mayhem.” This is simply yet another measure; next take away video games and the last male spaces. Arson, mayhem, and rioting become the new pastimes, creating more “thugs” to create ‘tingles’. An example happened this very last weekend. http://www.wcsh6.com/story/news/local/2014/10/18/keene-state-pumpkin-festival-riots/17533147/ Anyone who thinks having a large number of disenfranchised, under-employed, and increasing the number “sexless” young men is healthy for any country are completely deluded. It… Read more »
I am going to head out to buy stock in Google, allow me to don my tin foil hat for a moment. A. In the short term, Google glasses are going to be handy for limiting false rape accusations under YMY. It won’t change the underlying social currents of fear promulgated by the YMY laws and similar measures which will keep coming down the line at young men today, but it be a momentary safeguard. I see them selling well until the FI outlaws any kind of evidence of YMY to preserve the possibility of legitimized regret rape. B. Google… Read more »
Nice post! Women can never be equal to men there will always be a difference whether they accept it or not.
My thoughts above have to a certain extent been influenced by a book I read earlier this year, The Empty Cradle, how falling birth rates threaten world prosperity and what to do about it. One core idea within the book is that families create something that all societies need, namely HUMAN CAPITAL. What is that? Well its humans that are moderately well adjusted individuals who can make a meaningful contribution to society, most likely in the form of an economic contribution both as a consumer but also as a producer. Traditionally in agrarian societies Mom and Dad would have lots… Read more »
Men who “stay in the game” will quickly learn self-defense. They will start video recording every sexual encounter. They will document every interaction with every woman. They will save every selfie, every nudie, every sext, every explicit text exchange. They will learn to deploy their own nuclear options –“Go right ahead and accuse me of rape. You’ve got the law? I’ve got video, baby. I’ll show the police the video recordings of your, uh, enthusiasm. And after I show the cops, it goes on the internet. So. Still wanna go there?” YMY will severely discourage and curtail marriage. More and… Read more »
One major theme of Gone Girl (the book) is that women do not want to have to be Cool Girl, who is good giving and game, who enthusiastically consents. Seriously, *women* will complain about feeling forced to exhibit enthusiasm.
This law will have (and is clearly intended to have) a chilling effect on less assertive men. It will only embolden the thugs, jerks, players, cads and “rapey” men its proponents say they want to discourage. The “dads” that some in these parts claim they like so much will only become less engaged. “Dads” are the rules followers, the betas, the engine of our economy, the parts of our society who make it run. They can’t afford to take a flyer on some cutie at a bar or some other meeting place. So they won’t approach girls they otherwise might… Read more »
[…] Yes Means Fear. […]
Novaseeker posted this useful comment on Dalrock’s “The Sexual Revolution’s Arab Spring” thread. ============= The more you think about it, really, as this law spreads from college campuses to the rest of us (which will happen almost certainly over the next 10-20 years if not sooner), it will give a lot of women what they want in their marriages to B-list men (compared with pre-marital lovers): a full legal endorsement of the idea that husbands are only entitled to sex when the wife is enthusiastically consenting. If she is less than enthusiastic, he is legally blocked. This is precisely what… Read more »
Five decades of encouraging women to be all they want to be, sexually, has failed. So now to achieve gender equality in enthusiasm, males will have to be forced to become less enthusiastic.
A few thoughts: 1. Those talking about cops and prosecutions seem to miss that this only applies to college campuses and their kangaroo courts, in California. The uniquely far left politics of California permit this to happen, and it may happen in other states. If you aren’t on a college campus in California, it does not apply. And like one commenter noted above, this law will likely not survive judicial challenge and review. You can bet that FIRE and other civil liberties organizations focused on student rights are already sharpening their knives. Any of you who actually want to “do… Read more »
Here’s commenter Escoffier at Dalrock’s on the “How Yes Means Yes Fuels Hookup Culture” thread. ================== What I am looking forward to, and I’m sure it will happen (perhaps it already has started), is certain bloggers-writers-commenters will say of the various horribly unjust speculative scenarios posted here and elsewhere “No way, that will never happen, typical overreaction, reductio ad absurdum, etc. Crazy MRAs and other assorted male losers jump to the worst possible conclusions about this necessary, sensible law.” Then when actual cases start to get reported, many of which will look exactly like the doomsday scenarios we’ve speculated about,… Read more »
Clarification: My comment about “deontology run amok” was with respect to the abstractions of other thinkers mainly, not the consequentialism of Millls per se, literally. But at a higher level, Mills’ justification for a higher morality that trumps individual sovereignty is a principle in and of itself. However, the way I’ve phrased it is awkward and confusing – don’t get hung up on it. I’m not giving a didactic presentation, just having a conversation.
@Glenn re: “They want more leverage over those they consent to have sex with as they already have plenty of power over the lower SMV men” I don’t think so. Ezra Klein’s point about fear was alarmingly honest, but that fear applies solely to the 80% of men who are considered below average. This law *requires* women to compete to show more enthusiasm for the 20% of desirable men. The previous decade of selling selling selling this issue was supposedly to force men to become better lovers. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a lousy lover who… Read more »
I believe there is a large population of very bitter angry desperate lonely old hags in this civilizations future.
You’re a fool to believe this law will remain in force only on California college campuses. This is being used as a test case to condition everyone to its spread to other states’ universities, then into general application to civil and criminal law.
This law, or a version of it, will soon be applied to everyone, adult or college student, married or single.
This law essentially codifies and gives legal force to “tingles”.
This law will, in the next 20 years or less, be applied to EVERY sexual encounter, married or unmarried, anywhere and everywhere. If she didn’t give “affirmative consent”, then you’re a rapist, whether you’re married or not. In Christian circles is the “duty sex” concept, where a wife doesn’t really want to have sex but does so anyway to give her husband “release”. Under this law, husband is a rapist, and he goes to jail. Husband touches wife’s arm, then brushes against her breast. If she didn’t give “affirmative consent” for that encounter, husband is a rapist, and he goes… Read more »
Red Pill songs… Whipping Post I’ve been run down I’ve been lied to I don’t know why, I let that mean woman make me a fool She took all my money Wrecks my new car Now she’s with one of my good time buddies They’re drinkin’ in some cross town bar Sometimes I feel Sometimes I feel Like I’ve been tied To the whipping post Tied to the whipping post Tied to the whipping post Good lord I feel like I’m dyin’ My friends tell me That I’ve been such a fool And I have to stand down and take… Read more »
It also applies to married students, so already applies to married people.
re: defining sexual activity.
Having sex with a different girl CAN be considered sexual abuse of the neglected girl. Not responding promptly enough to her sexts CAN be considered sexual abuse (you weren’t enthusiastic enough about her consent …). Offering a defense to the charges and denying that you did something to upset her CAN be considered sexual abuse.
Somebody had a birthday …
This woman doesn’t find any men attractive enough to have sex with, wonders what’s wrong with all the men …
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that all of this is being driven by the rage of bed-death lesbians who are jealous of all the sexual attention that hetero girls get.
As much as women don’t want to feel they *have* to be Cool Girl, they hate even more being Uncool Girl. And nothing is less cool than a bed-dead lesbian.
Somebody had a birthday … http://thoughtcatalog.com/rebecca-graham/2014/10/i-never-intended-to-be-a-32-year-old-virgin-but-here-i-am/ This woman doesn’t find any men attractive enough to have sex with, wonders what’s wrong with all the men … Well, the thing that strikes me about that is that if you are a 32 year old woman who is not religious and yet is still a virgin … something is off. Either she isn’t that attractive, or she has a persona that sends people off, or she’s very much a loner (i.e., doesn’t meet many people) or something else. But even more than a 32 year old male virgin (where there are also… Read more »
@Rollo re: the aging uterus. If you really need references to educate yourself, you’ll have to obtain my enthusiastic consent first. But, as it turns out, old uteri are just about as good as young uteri, strictly in terms of probability of healthy delivery AFTER implantation. Believe it or not, an ancient wizened crone well past menopause could (almost) as easily bear a full-term baby IF she could get pregnant in the first place. Shorter version: young eggs artificially implanted in old wombs do (almost)exactly as well as young eggs artificially implanted in young wombs. In stark contrast, old eggs… Read more »
But, as it turns out, old uteri are just about as good as young uteri, strictly in terms of probability of healthy delivery AFTER implantation. Believe it or not, an ancient wizened crone well past menopause could (almost) as easily bear a full-term baby IF she could get pregnant in the first place. Shorter version: young eggs artificially implanted in old wombs do (almost)exactly as well as young eggs artificially implanted in young wombs. In stark contrast, old eggs do as lousy in young wombs as in old wombs. Which is why egg freezing is such a big deal (not… Read more »
@ Tam the Bam
while there will never be enough cops* there just might be enough betas and blue pill chumps to enforce the FI’s will
* one cop is one too many
In the future, assuming current trends continue — and there’s no reason to believe they won’t, Cthulhu only swms left, after all — male heterosexuality will be like cocaine, heroin, meth and other illegal drugs. Some men will indulge and have their fun, while hoping they won’t be one of the unlucky ones who gets in trouble, while other men will decide that the risks of punishment outweigh the potential rewards and pleasures, and will just refrain from dealing with women altogether.
Bloody Google, eh. I thought most people had had the “Dive! Dive!!” klaxon go off in their minds when the “Don’t be Evil” shite was being touted around. As people have tried to point out to them, because The Goog is completely unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, defaulting instead into a “good for/not good for The Google” definition, its corporate mindset is in fact the very banal essence of evil. Like they care. Frozen eggs for good little worker bees ahahahahahahahahhhahahhhhhaaaa Let me know how that works out willya? Say. Why don’t you Google “Robert Nelson… Read more »
I saw a date off campus twitter account advocating guys to avoid dating other female students. It’s been closed though. I waiting to see if an increase in girls dating off campus will happen. Mainly hook ups with older men or sugar daddies with tinder and any other apps to come. Women always try to justify their own expansion of dating age range as needing somebody more mature because guys their age aren’t on their level. The web site that men and women sign up for, where men bid on dates to have with the women and just so happens… Read more »
Such fuckheaded, hamfisted and contra natura laws sprout wherever jews are in power. Don’t believe me, just read history.
@Novaseeker re: egg freezing.
Psychologically it’s a big deal. In practice, not so much. Long-frozen eggs are almost impossible to fertilize, which is the entire reason egg-freezing is still so rare in 2014. Beyond a handful of years, the frozen egg apparently forgets how to respond. For many decades, fertility quacks have touted secret recipes and secret thaw schedules/windows of opportunity supposedly maximizing chances.
If I may borrow Rollo’s comment on the linked Dalrock blog: Johnny and Jane have been in a “relationship” for 2 months, and while they’ve kissed and petted intimately on various occasions, Jane tells Johnny she’s still not “comfortable” enough to have sex with him on the occasions he attempts to escalate to sexual intercourse with her. While Johnny hasn’t verbally expressed it to Jane, privately he’s becoming fed up with her hesitancy and disappointed by her repeated resistance to his negotiating and reasoning with her for her genuine desire. As a result, Johnny becomes more open to flirtations and… Read more »
I think the whole thing is a crock of shit despite the so called scientific evidence touted by numerous organizations selling the extremely profitable hoax. Freezing induces crystallization of any moisture present. Any crystilazation decimates cell structure. It’s probably all bullshit despite what you can find on the Internet, etc.
The sort of person who comes out with these kinds of “laws” is deeply sick.
Hmm, musing about Rollo’s “reluctantly initiates” throwaway. Is enthusiastic consent sufficient, or is enthusiastic initiation also *required*? In other words, does half-hearted asking count as asking “Uh, say, we’ve got almost an hour before our next class. You wanna grab some a’ them Frito burgers and then, like, make out and stuff?” Or will boys be required to take classes to learn how to ask enthusiastically? Will girls get enthusiasm lessons? *Should* girls get enthusiasm lessons? (and we all enthusastically say “Yes! Yes! Yes!”) Interestingly, women’s main secular complaint about pornography-for-men is that it portrays the woman as unrealistically enthusiastic.… Read more »
The term “date” rape was coined years ago. Why? Before that rape was rape plain and simple. Why did the description of the crime of rape specifically have to be expanded to include “date” rape? Before that dating was dating and rape was rape. Why was the word “date” used, accepted and embraced as an adjective to express rape in such a specific context?
The legal definition of what constitutes sexual harassment is extremely reliant on whatever the victim claims based on the victims subjective interpretation or claimed interpretation.
The idea that women’s sexual preferences should be deferred to is not new. Pope John Paul II’s opus Theology Of The Body is based largely on his earlier Love And Responsibility, a distillation of decades of housewives complaining to a handsome priest. The celibate Pope mansplains why husbands shouldn’t pester their wives for sex so often, and like a girl he concludes that they both would like it better if they always waited until she initiates. A hundred years ago, Marie Stopes tried to give a scientific nonreligious impetus to the woman’s preference that a man not pester her for… Read more »
Esther Perel makes the much better scientific case that women are the problem in long term relationships, because women cannot handle being treated well and politely asked.
Where is the flood of Uncool Girls when you want them?
A man cannot enthusiastically consent to a cold spike of fear. It is violating to him.
The official 2013 guideline from the American Society for Reproductive Medicine and the Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology: oocyte cryopreservation is NOT recommended for the purpose of circumventing reproductive aging.
This big 2014 review inthe JournalofAssisted Reproduction and Genetics is unambiguous:
“It seems that the longest storage of human oocytes in LN2 after vitrification will be of more than 5 years and less than 10 years, but the evidence provided by those reports do not lend support for the practice of oocyte cryopreservation in long-term cryo-banking requiring a long duration of cryo-storage.”
“the cryo-survival, fertilization rate and embryonic development of the vitrified oocytes are affected significantly, in an adverse manner, by the cryo-storage duration in LN2”
The most cited recent long-duration success story was this publication in 2011:
A 17 yr old’s eggs were cryopreserved, and 1 out of 14 were actually fertilized after being frozen for 5 years, as evidenced by development into an implantable blastocyst.
The smartest thing a young Beta can do is . . . drop out of college. Seriously, unless you’re going for one of a handful of technical or professional degrees, for most dudes the “college experience” is a waste of time, energy and money. Without easy access to young horny girls, what is the point? Men would be better suited ceding the increasingly obsolete university system to the women who want to become corporate spinsters and devote their time instead to piling up technical certifications, opening surf shops,building their bodies and learning the crafts of masculinity while perfecting their Game.… Read more »
@ianironwood is right, in a way. I’m a sophomore in College and I can already tell you this is only meant to stop Betas from advancing with girls. This hardly affects Alphas. I go to a lot of parties and high status girls ignore any Betas or any “outsider” that she sees. They’re almost like a piece of furniture to them. They can be downright cruel to some guys. I remember being at a party with a side piece (fling), sitting outside on a bench watching the debauchery as my bros were getting drunk beyond their minds. As the night… Read more »
In the UK 20 total successful births from women’s cryopreserved eggs. Almost all were short duration.
Females reverted from the technological advance of being internally fertilized via male’s penetrative organs to the much more costly and primitive external fertilization method aka laying eggs.
I is winning.
@keg chugger If you encounter a ‘beta’ en route to dropping out of college, supplement The Rational Male with Victor Pride at Bold and Determined as he’s given exact reasons to do so with simple to follow strategies. He writes, “College was a waste of time for me but the endless books, endless experiences and endless amount of self-study has proven invaluable.” As we speak, an apprentice has left much behind to work with him to learn to have the kind of success he enjoys. Mike C at Danger and Play is another extraordinary resource for men that have a… Read more »
@jf12 October 20th, 2014 at 4:33 pm “The idea that women’s sexual preferences should be deferred to is not new. Pope John Paul II’s opus Theology Of The Body is based largely on his earlier Love And Responsibility……” Religion has always been a feminine beta schema orchistrated to eleminate alpha freedom usurp power and reap wealth. Any man feels at least a slight twinge of awkward uneasiness in church. Religion is the biggest business in the world and the Catholic Church is the wealthiest institution on earth. They own more property than any other and control vast amounts of cash… Read more »