Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany

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About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was right around the same week I published Alpha Agents of Righteous Karma and, coming from a fairly attractive woman, it highlighted many of the points I’d made in that post.

Commenter myreality asked me:

To what extent, if at all, do you think that validation hunting is part of male preference for large age differences when a man is in his late 30’s and beyond? It is definitely not 0%…

I think this is presuming a truth that isn’t.

The idea that men “seek validation” for their earned status or to ‘right’ past wrongs to their egos while they were working their way to that status is a social convention. The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

Have a look at my Sexual Market Value Graph. (click to enlarge)

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Although I’ve gone into explaining the loose metrics I’ve based this graph on several occasions, I’ve added some arrows here to illustrate a point that often gets missed or simply blown over because the truths it represents aren’t very flattering. Women would rather men not be aware of their own SMV potential prior to women being able to consolidate upon her sexual strategy.

Popular culture never presumes women are ‘validation hunting’ when they’re enjoying their peak SMV potential at 23 and (by order of degree) indulging that opportunity with men while at their peak. Women are acculturated to feel “empowered” by their sexuality, and really, no guy who wants to bang a hot 23 year old woman is ever going to rebuke her for it, much less develop social conventions to limit their odds of doing so.

However, men enjoying peak SMV in their mid to late 30’s are (by default) presumed to be vindicating themselves and validating their “fragile egos” by dating the younger (and in Jenny Bahn’s case an SMV peaked 23 year old no less) women they naturally find more attractive.

If there is any ‘validation’ for SMV peaked men it’s less about the sense of deserving a hot piece of ass or vindication for the women of his peer age who found him sexually invisible until he hit his peak, and more about validation in a new self-awareness that he finally is in a position of choosing and qualifying women for his intimacy rather than being filtered for his own acceptability for so long.

It’s not about turnabout or fair play now that the sexual selection shoe is on the other foot, but simple deductive pragmatism for a man who is aware of his own SMV and, assuming he’s hasn’t hamstrung his ability to maneuver, wants to exercise that value at (presumedly) the top of his game.

It’s not (usually) that he’s made a conscious effort to make himself an Alpha Agent of Righteous Karma, but that he steps into that role by default when the SMV balance shifts to his favor, and he naturally prefers sexual access to the best physical, and most sexually available woman his newly recognized SMV will afford him. That may not be a 23 year old coed, but it might be with a necessitous 29 year old looking for a solution to her long term investment.

About Those Arrows

One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation.

Critics who like to presume that this attraction is only based on looks, prowess and virility often don’t take this attraction prioritization into account. Obviously a more youthful man is in better physical shape when he’s younger, and if all we were considering was short term mating prospects and the Alpha Fuck side of feminine hypergamy this graph would look much different. However, once a woman has reached 30 (thank you Ms. Bahn) those attraction (not arousal) priorities look much different.

The primary reason I placed men’s peak SMV in his mid to late thirties is because, if he’s made the most of his potential, this is when he is most likely to have established himself in his status, affluence and achievements while (if he’s maintained himself) still retaining the looks of a more mature man.

It’s exactly women’s sexual prioritization at their most necessitous which puts men at the top of their SMV game. As I’ve detailed in many prior posts, hypergamy wants optimization (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks). Women’s pluralistic sexual strategy is optimized when a woman can consolidate a monogamous commitment from a man who can deliver a better genetic benefit and a better personal (providership) investment than her own SMV should realistically be able to warrant her.

In general, at no other point in a man’s life does he possess the a better potential to optimize women’s innate hypergamy.

If you follow the pink arrow, from about women’s 30th year that established SMV peaked man has the best potential to satisfy both aspects of the dualistic nature of hypergamy. It’s important to consider that when a woman reaches her 30s her sexual prioritization is affected by her own capacity to attract and hold male attention. What happens is a sort of subconscious establishing operation – as her capacity to attract becomes diminished, and as the next generation of SMV peaked women comes into their own, the urgency to cash out of the sexual market place increases.

So it’s not that the expectation should be one of 23 year old women wanting to get after it with 38 year old men (though this is exactly the scenario in Jenny Bahn’s story), but rather that 38 year old men increase exponentially in value to 30 year old women at a time when what he possess is what she needs the most.

Back in May a data set was released on Twitter from OKCupid founder Christian Rudder is his book Dataclysm: Who We Are (When We Think No One’s Looking)It’s a fascinating read actually and reinforces much of what I speculate about with regard to my own SMV graph.

Data_9780385347372_3p_all_r1.j.indd Data_9780385347372_3p_all_r1.j.indd

It’s important to remember that this data is based primarily on looks, but it illustrates the point of my adding the blue arrow to the graph. Men’s arousal and attraction triggers are virtually static. While men’s attraction value variates for women, it is a locked value for women.

While in her SMV peak – as we can see averaged her to around 22 – women enjoy the benefit of having the most sexual selectivity of their lives. However, the power of this selectivity declines as she ages and is further stressed by sexual competition as she does. And while men compete for sexual access to women, the sexual market value of the woman being competed for is still rooted in her capacity to attract attention and arouse men.

When in her SMV peak years, women’s preferences and sexual strategy supersede those of the men who would compete for her, however as she moves towards maturity, and as men ascend to their own SMV peak, a man’s preferences gradually take precedence over women’s.

Jenny Bahn, a reasonably attractive (former model) woman provides us with an excellent example of this transition.

Alex is 38. I’m 30. Technically, there are no “people our age.” But I’m starting to feel that a 30-year-old woman might as well be a 40-year-old man, though infinitely less desirable, culturally speaking.

At 40, a man is well into hitting his stride, something the guy I’m arguing with is all too aware of, as evidenced when he professes on multiple occasions, “I’m an amazing guy.” “We’re killing it. KILLING IT,” he tells me, while explaining that he’s been caught up in his rapidly expanding architecture firm.

[…]A 30-year-old woman is an undertaking, and it’s the real reason Alex has been putting me on the back burner for the past two months, telling me that I’m amazing and that he’s interested and then disappearing to hang out with a 23-year-old instead. Age ain’t nothing but a number, until it’s a number someone else doesn’t want to deal with.

As I mentioned in The Threat:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

Jenny, like most women in their Epiphany Phase, is now coming to terms with the transition of sexual selection power from what she once no doubt enjoyed to a man who’s made the most of his maturity and potential she wants to consolidate on in long term monogamy.

Jenny has a rare honesty and insight to recognize this, but naturally the ‘validation’ social convention is there to assuage her predicament. Even in her self-acceptance of her situation Alex is colored with an uncooperative attitude. His perspective is ‘incorrect’ in a fem-centric social order. If he were really ‘mature’ he would be dating and marrying Jenny (a victim of her own past decisions) instead of seeking ‘validation’ with a 23 year old hottie.

The presumption of Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old makes men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order. A mature, established man shouldn’t want to date women in their 20s, he should cooperate with the Feminine Imperative and validate Jenny’s sexual strategy by becoming monogamous with her.

What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny; women who delayed capitalizing on their SMV peak and now, at 30, find themselves on the necessitous side of that sexual selectivity.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

316 comments on “Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany

  1. Rollo has retweeted this today:

    https://twitter.com/PlayDangerously/status/522866323483684864

    Mike C at DangerAndPlay is the definition of Man of Greatness, and he’s demonstrated this again today. He’s setting precedents that will change the course of global events.

    I’m thankful we’re friends.

    EVERY man should supplement his reading here with Mike’s podcast, youtube channel, blog and forthcoming book. It’s all brought drastic change to my life. Some of it has helped my doctor to literally save my life in 2014.

  2. “Is there any actual biological harm that results from not having sex?”

    There probably isn’t, but men, unlike women, need sex not just for physical reasons. Men need sex for psychological reasons – it feeds their ego, for a man having sex means that everything is ok with him. It’s not that way for women.

  3. Rollo, the statement :

    “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side”

    means pretty much :

    “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger VERY ATTRACTIVE women with count =< , statistics are not on your side"

    There are heaps of average looking or even slightly below average looking women with low N counts, but no self respecting man wants these dregs, do they ? For every below average woman who believes she deserves a hot guy, there are as many below average man who believes he deserves a hot girl. It it weren't so funny it would be tragic and it weren't so tragic it would be funny.

  4. rollo what are your thoughts on this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2568763/Kate-Rothschild-heiress-rap-star-lover-photo-thats-alarmed-friends.html

    On Monday, October 13, 2014, WordPress.com wrote: > Rollo Tomassi posted: ” About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was rig” >

  5. Rothschild story is so typical and logical. Nice girl gets married, represses her feral nature to consolidate on security, and then, once comfortable, her feral side comes out. The husband does not know what hit him, because he never took that side of her seriously….and it likely would have stayed dormant had she not been so sure of the love and affection of her “best friend”. The new guy gives her the masculinity she craves and she is willing to do whatever is necessary to fit into his world. Note that he is not responsible for raising the kids, which if not done carefully, has a way of reducing your masculinity. The story plays to the script perfectly and is a lesson for every guy who thinks about an LTR. You need to see the woman’s wild side and be comfortable that you have the masculinity to keep her guessing and trying to please you. The end.

    1. The Rothschild heiress story is a bit more complex. They married early, are of similar super-wealthy families, they had 3 children together, her ex lives close by and sees the children often. Her ex-husband also is together with a former underwear-model (age 26), so it is not really as if he lost so much. The Rothschild girl by the way is no longer “dating” the rapper as he is supposed to be seeing a young model now.

      Elite families always had more leeway in their marriages – the goal was the bonding of wealth and the procreation of suitable progeny. Afterwards depending on the strength of the bond the man and often also the women (!) found lovers while living in the same estate or apart. The UK Royal family employed Royal abortionists going back 2 centuries, since the women were not supposed to create additional heirs – they were allowed to have their fun, but not much else – and it could not be made public either. The couple remained married while living apart.

      Nowadays there are not nearly enough social or religious repercussions for women seeking a divorce and finding the Alpha Fucks in her life. The Rothschild heiress obviously desired to fill that void. The problem with such a strategy of course is that extreme wealth & social status does not interest men as much as women in their search for a partner. A super-wealthy attractive Beta can easily get the most beautiful woman truly interested in him. A woman doing the same will have way more problem finding a highly attractive Alpha who is enamored by her wealth and status.

      As humiliating as the episode might have been for her ex-husband, I believe that in the end he will be the winner in this as they are both in their 30s and he is dating a model, while her Alpha rapper is gone.

  6. Where were you when I got married? I got married years before the ‘sphere came into existence, but in retrospect made every mistake in the book: marrying a former carousel rider just when her SMV was waning while mine was taking off; extreme White Knighting; the works! It’s been as dreary a marriage as you would imagine. It’s too late for me but hopefully this site and others like it will help young men avoid my mistakes.

  7. Nearly every female out there is addicted to male attention. And boy, do they compete for it when the resource is scarce. As a young man in college I see more women in the space of 5 seconds than most men who’ve ever lived, saw, during their entire lives.

    I got Canadians, Mexicans, Italians, Spaniards, South Africans and so on, trying to extract attention from the handful of men like diamonds are going out of style. Thing is, the few men who are in college, quite a few of them are homosexuals, so they’re left with even less men to drain attention from. This isn’t restricted to college girls. High school girls, 30-something women, 50 something women, and even the grandma who can barely walk, wants attention from men.

    Women don’t care much about a man’s age, as long as he’s attractive. I have a 35 year old hot dude dating a 18 year old hot chick in my class. I have another 29 year old(this one looks older than his age) dating a 22 year old decent-looking woman.

    I have 16 year old cheerleaders checking me out and I’m 25. In a nation where the vast majority of the men look like the young brother of Jabba The Hutt, its not that hard to get female attention, if you have a healthy weight and you take a shower once in a while. This is why I don’t understand the concept of game. Women want dick. There are very few men in college/society, most men are obese or have the social skills of a retarded kid.

    its not that complicated. Women need male attention to function properly. Without it they can’t maintain their social hierarchies and they can’t figure out who is the ”Alpha” queen because there are no way to discern who is seen as the most attractive. Obviously, they need men for that to happen.

    Thing is, you get tired of being surrounded by so many women. Sure, their beauty and all that, but female beauty is very abundant and after looking to your left and seeing 10 young Penelope Cruz(es) and looking to your right to see 10 natalie Portmans, you kinda get tired with how women have infiltrated every area of male occupancy and now there’s not one single opportunity nor locale for you to talk to men.

    Trust me, even if you have high testosterone like I have, you get tired of seeing tits everyday in front of you. It could be a result of maturing as a man, tho.

  8. Oh, and by the way, the majority of the women you see younger than 35 don’t have a boyfriend. The few women I’ve met so far with boyfriends are very average-looking women. The women with the lowest self-esteem? They happen to be the most beautiful. How to get one of these? Practice personal hygiene, don’t grow a neckbeard(I’m looking at you Kentucky dudes) lose the extra weight and…. talk to women?

    Most women with good-looks don’t receive male attention in person. Yes, guys will look and stare like the girl is some Roman General transported throughout time to the 21th century, but most men lack the balls to talk to women and to show them they desire them. I’m nothing special, only 5’8” and I’m dating a 6 feet tall French-Canadian 20 year old girl because I had the balls to approach her after she eye-fucked me all night long.

  9. And boys, she has the whitest skin, the bluest eyes, the blondest hair, and damn is she thin. Approach. Talk to women. Forget the nonsense about game. Women want to shag, men have been doing it for thousands of years, no need to complicate it with ”SEXUAL MARKET VALUE,” HYPERGAMY” ”TOP 20% MALES IN LOOKS” and such other retarded beliefs.

  10. ”Nowadays there are not nearly enough social or religious repercussions for women seeking a divorce and finding the Alpha Fucks in her life. The Rothschild heiress obviously desired to fill that void. The problem with such a strategy of course is that extreme wealth & social status does not interest men as much as women in their search for a partner. A super-wealthy attractive Beta can easily get the most beautiful woman truly interested in him. A woman doing the same will have way more problem finding a highly attractive Alpha who is enamored by her wealth and status.”

    Man, most guys in college or even young professional males don’t have any money. That doesn’t prevent men and women from banging each other. You’re talking about high-powered marriages, yes women are going to want men who are from the same social background. The beautiful women you see out there? Most of them are as pennineless as their male equivalent and most of them don’t really care much about money.

    The key here is to not enter a frenzy of ”DAMN SO BEAUTIFUL” and marry the first girl who gives you a look. I’ll state it again. Female beauty is to be found everywhere. You don’t need to look at only American women. There’ll always be plenty of women from Europe or Australia either studying or working in North America. You don’t need to marry them either. There’ll always be another beautiful European/Canadian/Mexican/Brazilian woman interested in sleeping with you. Marrying you? Probably not. Who gives a shit about marriage or co-habitation, anyway?

  11. ”“Is there any actual biological harm that results from not having sex?”
    There probably isn’t, but men, unlike women, need sex not just for physical reasons. Men need sex for psychological reasons – it feeds their ego, for a man having sex means that everything is ok with him. It’s not that way for women.”

    Nope. Plenty of historical men have gone without pussy. They most likely masturbated their hands raw, but they didn’t die from lack of pussy and they had the free time and the money to do something productive with their lives. Even when pussy is for free, its consuming your time and putting obstacles between you and your goals. I know men who are so in-demand, they rarely have time to go home to take a shower, let alone advance in their careers.

  12. ”It’s literally impossible to protect women’s “right” to choose to sex up triumphant jerks and to prevent said triumphants jerks from being jerks and being triumphant.”

    jerks? Jerks are what average-looking(read: obese/bald/ugly/old) call to a guy when he’s sexually successful with women. I’ve met men who were the nicest bunch of people to be around. They had girlfriends and ONS. Good-looks. Talking to women like they are human beings. Not looking like the monster of the lock ness, not being terribly old(say, 40 year old men hitting on 20 year old women.. Sure, at least its funny to watch) and not being obese, and you’re in with the majority of women.

    I know, terrible that women are attracted to men who are healthy, have a sense of humor, or have good-looks.

  13. re: jerks?

    Jerks is what we TrueMen™ call dudes who intentionally finds women specifically to pickup with his “glib posturing with his toy camera” in order to, according to himself, measure himself by how much he can get away with ruining her socio-sexually by publicizing it.

  14. re: Rothschild Heiress

    While Jay’s status as a “bad boy” rapper sealed the deal, it didn’t hurt that he also had a masculine look, which her husband didn’t. Just look at pictures of them together and the guy looks like a complete herb. Physically, women don’t want a man who closely resembles them or one that looks like a complete beta.

    In other words, sexual dimorphism rules the day. Just look at this feral response from a girl to some athlete:

    https://i.imgur.com/tFwIZWB.jpg
    (h/t heartiste’s “goodbyeamerica” website)

  15. Men,

    Here is an apropos chance to influence the mainstream:

    Wireless Design Magazine online posted this article here:
    http://www.wirelessdesignmag.com/news/2014/10/facebook-apple-pay-egg-freezing-sperm-donors?et_cid=4210120&et_rid=263620244&type=cta

    Some excerpts:

    “New York (AP) — Free lunches, dry cleaning, massages — frozen eggs?

    Silicon Valley’s biggest companies have long offered cushy perks to attract top talent and keep workers happy logging scores of hours on the job. But beyond day-to-day luxuries, Facebook and Apple will now give up to $20,000 in benefits to help employees pay for infertility treatments, sperm donors and even to freeze their eggs. The move comes amid stiff competition for skilled engineers, and as many of the biggest firms try to diversify their male-dominated ranks to include and appeal to more women.

    “Anything that gives women more control over the timing of fertility is going to be helpful to professional women,” said Shelley Correll, a sociology professor and director of the Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University. “It potentially addresses the conflicts between the biological clock and the clockwork of women’s careers: The time that’s most important in work, for getting your career established, often coincides with normal fertility time for women. This can potentially help resolve that by pushing women’s fertility into the future.””

    The site has comments open. The comment I made below is awaiting moderation. Anyone else care to pile on?

    “Jack LaBear • 9 minutes ago

    So, are Apple and Facebook going to offer male employees $20,000 for condoms and Viagra? No, didn’t think so.
    Something is being overlooked here: men are not all that attracted to 35 year old women whose ambition in life is to masculinize themselves. Most men prefer feminine women at the peak of attractiveness and fertility. Hence the gay and lesbian angle.
    Regardless of these efforts, liberal/feminist women are failing to reproduce at replacement rates, and they will end up extincting themselves while peoples with traditional values like Muslims and Catholics replace them by default.”

  16. @Feral, you should realize by now you are incorrect out of simple ignorance and racism. Goldsmith has bigger physical masculinities than Electronica in every single dimension.

  17. ”It’s only women that have a vested interest in discouraging “dishonestsignalz” guys from trying. Only women. Any males who do so are so blue they’re green (anti-red) pillers wholly subservient to the FI.’

    You are pretty adamant in telling what women want, have, or how women are like. You sure you are not having a gender crisis? Keeping aside the childish references to a science movie made for kids, do you even talk to women? I’m not referring to ”bar sluts.” Everyday women. Women you see inside a bookstore, getting their groceries, picking up their kids, chilling on a park? Do you have any female friends? Or women are only good for fucking amirite brobrobro?

    ”Did you even read my post or are you pretending to be dense?

    I think the time he spent drinking and taking drugs when he was in a frat house kinda messed him up. He seems to be stuck in this twilight zone where women can barely fight off the advances of the Master Pick-up artist and when they are picked up, they are so taken by the skill of Jf12, they can only but say that they got taken advantage of. I used to see a few guys like this running around when I was walking around campus, but they got over their hatred for women/men who get women by age 22, seems like this fella up here is in his mid 20s but didn’t take the ”grow up” meme.

  18. ”Why do women, and greenpillers, feel the need to defend women’s choices in men?”

    I don’t know. Why do you insist in your persistence that you know everything about women? Are a purple piller or a zeta male with veins of omega and a bit of that venus gas after you eat your lunch? What I mean is, are you AlfaAlfa or BetaBeta Mr. biologist/geneticist/dude who studies human sexual behavior, or are you I don’t know, messed up in the head like you seem to be?

  19. ”While Jay’s status as a “bad boy” rapper sealed the deal, it didn’t hurt that he also had a masculine look, which her husband didn’t. Just look at pictures of them together and the guy looks like a complete herb. Physically, women don’t want a man who closely resembles them or one that looks like a complete beta.
    In other words, sexual dimorphism rules the day. Just look at this feral response from a girl to some athlete:”

    What? Do you know what’s sexual dimorphism? I am friends with 20 guys from Denmark. The shortest is 6’6”. Their girls are also Scandinavian and 5’6” and skinny. Thati s sexual dimorsphim. That black fella just looks like any guy could look like, if the majority of western men didn’t look like pigs being fattened for massive commercial consumption. Most white guys in the western world are disgusting, that’s why the ”high-quality” women you people covet so much won’t give the time of the day. To the majority of the men.

    And it’s rather retarded to claim the high-ground when the majority of men(oh damn, I’m criticizing my own sex, I must be a feminazi or gay!) can’t refuse pussy. Oh, look, a woman is offering sex, better cheat on my girlfriend of 3 years because this chick is hot and I forgot that I’m 20-40 years old, not 13 years old.i

  20. ”Jerks is what we TrueMen™ call dudes who intentionally finds women specifically to pickup with his “glib posturing with his toy camera” in order to, according to himself, measure himself by how much he can get away with ruining her socio-sexually by publicizing it.”

    True men? Last I heard doctors, engineers, teachers, soldiers and so on don’t waste their time ”picking” women up or being all jealous because:

    A) Fit men are desired by women.

    B) Some guys like to spend their time trying to pick up, or picking up women.

    What do I know anyway? Only that Bill Gates is not AlfaAlfa because dude has no game and is wife is lame, yO!

  21. @Phillip,

    I got Canadians, Mexicans, Italians, Spaniards, South Africans and so on, trying to extract attention from the handful of men like diamonds are going out of style. Thing is, the few men who are in college …

    As an aside, do you in fact see fewer men going to college these days?

  22. shorter phillip, distilled form 893 consecutive page-size comments.
    ” Good-looks. Talking to women like they are human beings. Not looking like the monster of the lock ness, not being terribly old(say, 40 year old men hitting on 20 year old women.. Sure, at least its funny to watch) and not being obese, and you’re in with the majority of women.

    I know, terrible that women are attracted to men who are healthy, have a sense of humor, or have good-looks.”

    o god, Professor Headwig is back
    Aussehen über alles.

    1. Good pick up Tam,… Phillip = Professor Von Hardwiggs = Princess SSB = Plagio

      95.94.181.23

      Professor Troll, there’s really no need to post under multiple aliases here. I have an open forum policy and various tracking tools at my disposal – no need to bother creating phantom gmail accounts. You can be a trolling idiot under the same name without worrying if I’ll ban you. Stick with one name, I kind of like Princess SSB personally.

  23. My comment at Wireless Design passed moderation, was up for an hour or two, and then was removed.
    Did anyone else chime in there, or do we all prefer staying in echo chambers?

  24. ” . . . do we all prefer staying in echo chambers?”

    No, I just prefer Rollo’s posting policy.

    Yea, though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I shall fear no evil,
    for I have passed through the valley of unmoderated alt. groups and was the baddest motherfucker in the valley.

  25. Hey Rollo, You know who I am 😉

    One thing I continuously write on sosuave is that a woman’s perfect age range for the picking is age 23-27. Anything younger, and she’s still in her immature party phase. Anything older, and she’s hearing the ticking of her biological clock getting louder. Your charts absolutely validate a woman’s prime years, and with my gf being 24 and myself being 36, I’m happily taking full advantage of it.

    Any woman who finds herself single after age 27 is over-ripe-going-mouldy fruit. She becomes more and more jaded toward men, and more and more desperate to get herself married & pregnant (if she doesn’t already have kids). Her options are reduced to desperate, horny low-status men. Many of these women who were once highly attractive (and still feeling they deserve a high quality man) will simply end up alone…

    That is, until they discover the comfort of having multiple cats.

  26. @ kfg

    I understand where you’re coming from.

    I also believe that there is value in trying to spread Rollo’s wisdom to men in the general culture.

  27. I’m going to go on a tl;dr here, but I’m writing this with the intent of raising a point of discussion that I think is highly relevant.

    Mechanoreceptors in the skin distinguish between intrapersonal and interpersonal touch. What’s the ultimate difference between masturbation and sex?

    How to get laid, how to manage a relationship by being aware of hypergamy, how the FI tries to suppress and repress male sexuality and the expression of it — all these things are relevant.

    But they don’t offer anything as to understanding the actual value of sex. Babies will die without touch. But adults? It’s much less clear. This is not a black and white issue. No one can just say “you need sex” without providing actual relevant evidence.

    Let me make it clear that I’m not advocating avoiding sex or going MGTOW. I’m posing this question again because:

    What do you tell guys who are actively learning and trying to apply Game who’ve been clueless their whole lives, and are virgins well into adulthood?

    If you’re going to posit that sex is a need, it would imply that guys who have never experienced it or have gone a very long time without have sustained some kind of irreparable damage — as would be caused by a deprivation of any other known need, like calories, vitamins, minerals, oxygen, water, etc. Organisms adapt to their environment. If sex is a need, and that need goes unfulfilled, the organism will adapt to that —

    — but what are those adaptations? And will it do any good for guys to obsess about it? Guys like Eliot Roger, and guys like myself, who have come very close to boiling over — whether that’s killing other people or committing suicide — can place a very high importance on sex.

    Is that really warranted? Or was focusing on sex as a NEED the real trigger? I am still not getting any sex, but I’ve changed my attitude about sex and I’ve found that when I center and ground myself, the rage goes away. These days when I think back on it, it’s almost like it was never even there. I am a lot more calm and level-headed now and the only thing I’ve changed is:

    Faster EFT on a daily basis, along with learning about Game on this blog and learning as much as I can about this stuff as possible, and trying to apply Game to get sex — unsuccessfully. Most likely due to my difficulties understanding Game and successfully integrating it, not Game or the concept of it itself.

    And I’m okay with that. I don’t think it’s healthy to feel like you’ve missed out on life or to think that you’re broken, or that not having sex or relationships or even touch has damaged you somehow. I just don’t believe that, based on my own experience of not even touching a girl one time throughout my entire teens and only having some very sparse, non-intercourse fooling around with two girls in my early 20’s.

    Hitting puberty and going all the way to 21 before I even touched a girl, and then it not even being one I was attracted to, sucked major balls. It was hell on earth. But when I look back on it now, there’s nothing I can do about it, and I can understand how I felt back then, but it doesn’t bother me these days. It’s in the past — it’s not real anymore.

    When I think about the fact that I’ve still never had intercourse, it bothers me. But I’m doing the best I can to improve my life, and when I take that into consideration it bothers me a lot less. Even though I’m not succeeding I’m definitely putting myself out there way more than I ever have in my life. That seems to be a much more influential variable than the actual success, again judging by my own experience.

    I am all for learning Game, but what do you tell guys like me who are doing their best to learn Game who’re well into adulthood and are still virgins, and have extremely limited or zero sexual experience?

    I don’t believe guys like me are broken or defective, or irreparably damaged, or even damaged at all. I believe that the belief that we’re damaged and that we’ve been irreparably deprived of something that makes us human is the *BREEDING GROUND* for hostility, rage, violence, etc.

    Again, based on my own experiences. I’ve been to hell and back and I’ve actual been that “psycho,” I’ve had the cops called on me for pulling a knife on someone and chasing them, I’ve experienced the mind bending frustration of feeling completely isolated from touch and sex and general human contact to the point of literally wanting to kill myself, I have been in the E.R. twice and institutionalized for being suicidal.

    And the core of it — at least I thought — was the lack of touch and the lack of sex, feeling invisible to girls and having no clue what to do about it. I was shy and awkward and had extreme difficulty communicating with anyone and I had no one to help me understand anything I was going through.

    Again, based on my experience, I would argue that simply learning about Game, having a healthy understanding of women’s sexual strategy (it does NOT mean that they’re bad or evil or scheming sluts — it is just how they operate, and it’s best to see it in an unbiased light as a part of their hard-wired biological functioning)…..

    …and attempting to apply this knowledge — EVEN if you’re unsuccessful — is enough to provide men with an immense amount of healing and give them a sense of security in who they are.

    In other words, I would say learning about Game and trying to apply it is more important than it actually working.

    Basho said, “The journey itself is home.” I agree with that completely, and I think the self-discovery and radical self-improvement that occurs while reading about and trying to apply Game — changing your behavior, learning to prioritize YOURSELF, dressing well, building a nice physique by paying attention to and taking care of your body —

    — all of these things have provided me with so much benefit. I would even say Faster EFT is an extension of my inner game: me prioritizing my own emotional well-being and health instead of thinking I need other people for it.

    It isn’t that sex can’t be important in a person’s life. I’m just saying that there are guys like me who are really trying their best and are just not having any success.

    What else can you do? You just have to try harder. But for guys who have gone their whole lives without sex and are trying to learn how to get it — I think it’s healthier for them to not perceive sex as a need.

    It’s paradoxical. But it’s completely necessary to understand why this is a paradox and then be okay with it. Sex can be a ‘need’ while you can simultaneously be perfectly fine without it, as long as you’re being honest with your desire for it and are doing your best to get it.

    The more I build myself up and the more I understand hypergamy and women’s pluralistic sexual strategy, the less personally I take rejection. What used to drive me to the point of cutting myself before (yes I am pretty sure I used to have BPD, I think I have rid myself of a lot of ‘mental illnesses’ since I started using Faster EFT) is now resulting in me wondering what I did wrong, and changing my approach the next time.

    I think there’s a lot of danger that can come from perceiving sex as a need, as much as there’s a lot of danger that can come from perceiving sex as something superfluous and irrelevant. Again, it’s a paradox.

    I know I’m writing a lot but this is an example of me trying to communicate as effectively as I can. If people take what I’m saying the wrong way or criticize me or make fun of me or completely misunderstand what I’m trying to say, I see it as the same thing as getting rejected by girls — I’m doing the best I can, I’ll just forgive myself for making any mistakes, and try to do better the next time.

    Men like me NEED to adopt a healthy attitude like this, and again…I think adopting this kind of healthy attitude through self-care and learning Game and attempting to apply it in your life in any way you can —

    — this is the best we can do. Sex may be important, but not as important as acknowledging our desire for it and making peace with that desire, whether we are fulfilling it in our lives right now or not.

    Long story short: do your best to try to meet your sexual needs, but it isn’t worth killing yourself or someone else over if you’re failing at it. Not even a little bit — not worth yelling at someone else or beating yourself up over it.

    What I’m saying is paradoxical, but that’s because this is a paradoxical issue, and I think it’s a paradox that the manosphere in general is in desperate need of realizing and integrating into daily practice. If we aren’t healthy and happy and finding peace within ourselves, what the hell is the point?

  28. BPD: Borderline Personality Disorder was addressed when Rollo was interviewed by Christian McQueen.

    Because of the recurring BPD theme on RM, I chose to accept an invite to hang out with Naomi McDougall Jones (lead actor “Lana”) Writer/Producer of the new BPD-themed feature film “Imagine I’m Beautiful”

    If you’ve ever experienced part of your life in a relationship with someone with BPD, “Imagine I’m Beautiful” will remind you that you’re not the only one affected by someone with BPD.

    There is never a mention of BPD in the movie. The lead character, Lana, demonstrates it as she ‘becomes’ each of the other characters (chameleon) and the males feel she’s giving them exactly what they need. She triangulates between all other characters as she orchestrates their actions into her control. She creates memories of things that never happened and completely believes them true.

    She said she re-wrote the script 52 times, and it’s based on witnessing two people with BPD first hand… seeing how they completely affected the lives of those closest to them.

  29. @Jacklabear

    “I also believe that there is value in trying to spread Rollo’s wisdom to men in the general culture.”

    Not the slightest disagreement from my corner.

    “If you’ve ever experienced part of your life in a relationship with someone with BPD . . . ”

    Married one. Chewed up all my T-shirts. It was decades ago, so I’m better now (twitch, twitch).

  30. Softek,

    “If people take what I’m saying the wrong way or criticize me or make fun of me or completely misunderstand what I’m trying to say, I see it as the same thing as getting rejected by girls — I’m doing the best I can, I’ll just forgive myself for making any mistakes, and try to do better the next time.”

    All that is possible is to continue from where you are and do your best to move forward. Anyone who makes fun of an honest seeker like you is the one with the bigger problems.

    Best wishes.
    .

    Have you ever had yourself recorded (sound and video) while interacting with women, strictly for your own use?

    (If you try this in public instead of in a controlled setting, become aware of privacy laws in your location, first, especially since this would be for personal training and not for self-protection. Also, notice that audio, video, and audio+video can be treated differently.)

    Being video taped is a standard training practice for anything that depends on how you will be perceived by others.

    Very often, in the beginning, what people intend, or how they think that they present themselves, can be quite different from how others perceive them, or even how they perceive themselves, when they watch their first videos.

    “I can’t believe that is how I … “, is a fairly standard reaction.

  31. “She’s a cute girl, maybe even the ‘type’ you’d want to get into an LTR with at first meeting (provided you were ignorant of what she’s capable of). I don’t think it’s jealousy that makes guys want to kill Goldmund – it’s a want to protect “that kind of girl”, the jewel in the rough, from the predations of a guy like Goldmund.”

    Some kind of in-group protection instinct might be at work. In Saving the Best you brought up the idea of “pre-cuckolding”, and I think that applies here. The blue pill conditioned mind recoils, horrified by how easily the good girl is turned. Wants to be turned. There’s a despair and a nihilism that comes with realizing this. You end up making the blanket assumption that they’ve all been corrupted long before you meet them. No matter how sweet and innocent she seems, she almost certainly has a checkered past. Her countenance is an act, even to herself. It’s sad.

    There’s a very real, visceral, hard-coded reaction to this, and I don’t know if disease aversion, paternity uncertainty, and resource protection are enough to explain it. Female purity (or the mirage of it) has immense value. There’s a reason why a certain celebrity and her handlers shat bricks when graphically compromising images of her were stolen and sprayed across the internet like so much… nah, I won’t go there. Suffice to say, the myth of feminine purity has religious power, and they were banking on it. I’m sure they’ll try to paint her as a different kind of hero, but once that blush fades, it’s gone forever.

    The male instinct to protect, preserve, and possess it drives cultural practices like insisting on women being completely covered; so-called honour killings of women who disobey, or tragically, were victims of rape; and elaborate matrimonial rites to marry off girls before the onset of puberty. Even in Christianity, Mary is virginal. Men throughout history have taken up arms to defend their people, driven by this instinct and the horror of imagining their enemies taking their women. No shit it makes them want to kill. It’s there in the reaction of a guy walking in on his wife cheating on him – he wants to kill the other guy, when it’s actually she who’s betraying him. It has been a major driver of progress, a subterranean psychological motivator in times when male achievement was the only qualifier to access.

    Game, while freeing individual men from stultifying cultural programming, is paradoxically accelerating the general trend of devaluation and desensitization… adding fuel to a full-scale attack on k-selected values in the post-industrial landscape. Welcome to the sexual apocalypse. Innocence is chum in the water.

    Still, I’m with Buena Vista: putting this girl’s video up alongside graphic descriptions of events – true or not – is going too far, and not by just a bit. It’s like some kind of digital taxidermy. Call me old-fashioned.

  32. Haven’t seen the Goldmund video, but I no longer care very much when these things happen. Plenty of worse things in the same vein are perpetuated by women every day with the enthusiastic help of government. Fake rape claims are becoming cliché but still ruin careers and lives, up to and including actual murder of the innocent guy by beta relatives of the girl. When those bitches are routinely getting thrown in jail for their lies, let’s take a look at Goldmund. But not before.

  33. Well, Glengarry, if it pleases you to occupy the same moral plane as the false rape accusers, you are absolutely correct in your analysis. You are also absolutely correct if you think there will be no blowback (further harming men) from such gratuitous personal destruction. I’d say your satisfaction in the trophy-mounting that Goldmund practices is entirely appropriate, if both prior premises strike you as correct.

  34. @D-man “It’s there in the reaction of a guy walking in on his wife cheating on him

    This situation is played out in a scene in the BPD-themed movie I mentioned in my last comment. I think the writer has been reading here because the movie perfectly demonstrates many concepts discussed here.

    Cool, artist faithful boyfriend becomes beta begging for sex from his girlfriend. And, when Rollo, Christian or anyone else mentions BPD… anyone that’s not been in a relationship with one wouldn’t know how to spot BPD in someone else. This movie depicts what Rollo has written here:

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/

    There’s a screening of it tomorrow afternoon in Hollywood. Afterward, the writer, the lead actor that plays “Lana” the BPD, the director, producers and a panel of mental health professionals will be there to discuss all, with you.

  35. @D-Man re: “mind recoils, horrified by how easily the good girl is turned. Wants to be turned.”

    Yes. I don’t want the serpent to succeed with Eve, and I don’t want to have to be the serpent to succeed with Eve.

    re: “blush fades”

    Embarrassed (-able) women are very attractive.

    re: “digital taxidermy”

    Marvelous phrase, will steal.

  36. “@Hobbes
    “I honestly don’t really care what age a woman is, I simply ask myself if I am attracted to her and want sex with her. If yes, then I do. But then again, I have always- even in my blue pill days- been a person who thumbed his nose at social conventions. But there are alot of guys who are completely brainwashed. I’ve met guys who swear they think going out with younger women to pedophilia- without exception, these are always the bluest pill, “nice guys” I’ve met”

    Thanks for your detailed response. It’s good that you do what you want and not worry about social conventions. I guess that just makes for an all around happier and more fulfilling life.

    Best

  37. @BV

    I’m sorry that you and your daughter have had to encounter that kind of ignorance when you’re out together. It’s crazy that people actually make comments like that.

    “I’d suggest you reflect on other reasons, which the men do not wish to articulate to you.”

    I’ve tried to but unfortunately, I’m not a mind reader and I can’t think of what else it might be. I don’t know why they wouldn’t want to articulate those reasons to me either, lol, it’s not like I’d go crazy on them or anything. They are entitled to think what they want after all.

  38. @jf “I’m more than twice your age, but for various reasons I tend to find women in their 20s and 40s more attractive than women in their 30s. I don’t know if it’s the psychological effects of the Wall or what, but when I was primarily dating women in their 30s, three decades ago, they were essentiall all nutso, in the clinical sense, totally confused about what they wanted and not amenable to direction, by me anyway.”

    Thanks for your response. You’re definitely entitled to your opinion and I can understand how past experiences might have made you come to that conclusion, but I think you’re just generalizing a bit when it comes to your statement about the looks and mind-set of women in their 30s. I mean sure, there probably are women in their 30s who fit your description to a T, (although I personally don’t know of any) but that doesn’t mean all chicks born from ’75-’84 are like that. Yeah, I know what some of you may say to that, “NATSWALT!” (not all 30 something women are like that) but it is what it is.

  39. @Rollo Tomassi
    “Assuming you’re not trolling (and I don’t think you are at this point) your ‘confusion’ is rooted in the fact that you are what I call a ‘Late Term Virgin’:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/09/the-adolescent-social-skill-set/
    I don’t know what your reasonings are for n=0, never kissed, but at 31 this is a huge red flag you’re still clinging to an adolescent social skill set. To the Men you’re attracted to in their 40-50s, who’ve mature well beyond any self-defeating obligation to sort you out, this is a non-starter”

    Thank you very much for your response. I really like your work (even if I don’t quite agree with everything said) and I appreciate you taking the time to write. You’re absolutely right that I’m NOT a troll, though I can understand how my unusual situation would lead some to believe that. I know it’s incredibly uncommon to have an n=0 and to have never been kissed at 31, but as I’ve stated in my previous post, I have reasons for it. A major one being that I grew up in a home with rather puritanical views on sex, particularly women’s sexuality. I was pretty much told that an unmarried female non-virgin is essentially a “damaged, dirty and worthless whore.” Having stuff like that drilled into your head from a young age definitely makes it difficult to see sex and other physical contact in a healthy and positive light. So it is any wonder that It took me a long time to overcome the impact of that conditioning and realize that what I was taught was false and distorted? The good news is that I finally did overcome my upbringing, so there’s no need for any man “sort me out” as you previously stated. I don’t feel that being a virgin at my age and never having kissed anyone has left me with an “adolescent social skill,” however, I will admit that sometimes when I interact with a man I’m attracted to, I do get nervous which can make me come across as somewhat awkward. Sometimes, a guy will be chucking after I’ve said something, and while I don’t think it’s meant as anything derisive on his part, I have a feeling that I do at times, in spite of being fairly intelligent and well-educated, can come across as somewhat naive in my interactions with people and especially men. However, I don’t think that this is so much from never having had sex or being kissed, as it is from just a general lack of experience with dating in general. As I’ve said before, I’ve only been on few dates in my whole life.

    “Simply put there are experiences and opportunities for personal growth that only embracing our sexuality can offer. One point I regularly make with respect to AFCs is that at some stage in their maturation they became retarded. I use “retarded” in the clinical, not the derogatory sense here; their social maturation becomes held up by their lack of access to experiences that would help them develop new cognitive models. Most of the time this is due to an inability to see past old conventions they learned in adolescence which halts them from passing to the next level so to speak. The problem with saving oneself for marriage becomes apparent in this. I’m not saying there is no merit in it, just that most people subscribing to it blindly do so without understanding the limitations inherent in it.”

    Thanks for the link you sent. I read it, along with all the comments. I really liked and agreed with a lot of what Mathew King, one of your commentator’s wrote. In college, I took a human sexuality course where there was some mention about the various benefits of sex between two consenting adults, however, I don’t recall it being stated in the course (or anything else I’ve read on the subject) that being a virgin arrests your psychological/social development. I just find it hard to believe that if I were to have ever had sex, my social skill set would have been significantly more progressed than it is today. I think maturation seems to result more from just general life experience.(which I don’t necessarily think has to be of the sexual variety.)

  40. Confused, the guys are just saying they don’t have the energy to teach you how to be an adult. A) you didn’t get that. B) It’s not their problem its yours. Good luck.

  41. In my town and others, most of the club goers are 18-25/26 then people tend to stop.

    I’m 21, but i’m worried where am i gonna go when i’m 37 for clubbing? surely i won’t look right hitting up these clubs when im older?

    thanks

  42. You are correct and pedestalized sex can stifle maturation. However, you cannot fully comprehend without experience.

  43. @confused,

    You are correct and pedestalized sex can stifle maturation. However, you cannot fully comprehend without experience.

  44. @BV
    ” the guys are just saying they don’t have the energy to teach you how to be an adult. A) you didn’t get that. B) It’s not their problem its yours. Good luck.”

    I’m not entirely what exactly about me (aside from the fact that I’ve never been sexually active) would make them think that I need to be “taught to be an adult.?” I’m college educated, I have a job, I pay my own bills; all the so-called “adult” responsibilities that I think I do a pretty good job taking care of, to the the point that I’ve sometimes been told that I’m too independent and have “masculine energy.” So what is it really? The simple fact that I lack “experience” in one area, (which isn’t by the way rocket science and can be learned like any thing else) that would cause them to think that?

  45. @BV
    ” the guys are just saying they don’t have the energy to teach you how to be an adult. A) you didn’t get that. B) It’s not their problem its yours. Good luck.”

    I’m not sure entirely what exactly about me (aside from the fact that I’ve never been sexually active) would make them think that I need to be “taught to be an adult.?” I’m college educated, I have a job, I pay my own bills; all the so-called “adult” responsibilities that I think I do a pretty good job taking care of- to the the point that I’ve sometimes been told that I’m too independent and have “masculine energy.” So what is it really? The simple fact that I lack “experience” in one area, (which isn’t by the way rocket science and can be learned like any thing else) that would cause them to think that?

  46. @George
    “You are correct and pedestalized sex can stifle maturation. However, you cannot fully comprehend without experience.”

    Thanks for your comment, I just wasn’t too clear what you meant by it. Could you please further elaborate?

  47. @confused

    Sexual experience is not necessary for maturity in a “general” sense and If we are too obsessed with sex we can slow our maturity. There are some people (in my opinion) who experience it but never aquire a mature understanding of it because they are too obsessed with fantasies associated with it. However, we must experience sex to really understand and appreciate it.

  48. @ Confused

    I think maturity involves the capability of satisfying your sexual desires. This also involves knowing where you stand sexually and not getting into situations that are counter to satisfying your sexuality.

    I’ve been with two girls, and while I’m still a virgin I do know what it’s like to be kissed, and I also know what it’s like to be older and never kissed a girl in my life. I’ve gotten blowjobs and handjobs, and have made out with and fingered two girls. That’s the extent of my experience.

    But compared to having 0 experience I feel like it’s taught me a lot that I didn’t consider otherwise.

    And I will say I do believe those experiences have “longevity” — knowing that I’ve been with a girl makes me feel better even though it’s been a long time since I’ve done anything, and even though I’ve never had sex. As I’ve said before it still bothers me that I’ve never had sex — I do think there’s something to “getting it out of your system,” judging by my experience. Because I do think at least kissing a girl and seeing a real, live pussy in person instead of just on my computer screen, “got it out of my system,” to an extent.

    I’m still not happy about my complete lack of success lately but I think once the ball gets rolling and you at least get some experience it can give you some peace of mind.

    The second girl I hooked up with, I was so nervous I had a panic attack and before I got interrupted when I was about to fuck her….I wonder if I even could’ve, because I was losing my hard on. I was just so fucking nervous.

    Approach anxiety, fear of rejection, this and that. Those are major players. And I think a part of maturity is overcoming those. That’s what I’m struggling with lately, struggling to admit to myself.

    Granted I was a lot younger than you (early 20’s) when I had my first experience. But I also know what it’s like to feel completely left out and abnormal.

    I wouldn’t worry about your age or being a late term virgin. I would worry about changing your attitude as much as possible — respecting your sexual desires. Just acknowledge that they’re there and start looking at girls sexually. Right now the biggest battle is in the privacy of your own mind.

    If you’re like me you might have a lot of resistance to that. I grew up in a very religious household also and thought masturbation was a sin — I have also carried that baggage.

    Also being blue-pill conditioned, and a natural empath, my tendency is to focus on girls’ emotional needs, their need for love and support —

    — it wasn’t until recently that I was like, “Hey, wait. Who’s loving and supporting me?”

    I think twice about listening to some girl complain about her boyfriend breaking up with her and how she’s been having panic attacks, etc., whatever…when I think about my own situation. I’ve spent like 13 years in a row having panic attacks, cutting myself and getting drunk in complete isolation without any support from anyone to try to cope with all the hell I was going through.

    Where’s my support? You have to ask yourself that. We seek out what we believe we deserve deep down. Even now I still have the mentality of not wanting to hook up with girls because I’m afraid I’ll hurt some other guy like me who wants to be with those girls, and other stuff like that. It’s mostly unconscious thoughts that we just operate from automatically, like driving a car.

    That’s just a loop. It’s a trap. But you have to realize that all your inhibitions about sex, and the fact that you’ve never kissed a girl, is more a sign of baggage you’ve been carrying around since you were a kid, than it is a sign that something’s wrong with you as a result of it.

    Your fears and inhibitions, just like mine, are perfect creations of your mind. Your mind is trying to protect you from those “dirty whores” — my mind is trying to protect me from having sex because I grew up with such a negative attitude around it.

    Do you know that my parents never had sex again after I was born? My dad told me one day and I was just shocked. The last time my mother and him had sex was to conceive me, and that was the end of it. No lie. I’ve never walked in on them or heard them doing anything, I never even saw them kiss each other, and almost never saw them hug each other.

    That was just what I grew up with. And again with the masturbation being a sin deal, OH and premarital sex — THAT will land you in hell QUICK.

    So I was completely terrified of it. And to this day I’m still trying to recover from that. Your mind successfully creates programs because it’s trying to keep you safe.

    Both of our lacks of success in sex are actually successes in and of themselves: successful creations of our mind. Programs that are designed to protect us from what we believe to be bad, evil, harmful, dangerous, etc.

    I challenge you to start looking at girls sexually. Notice any resistance that pops up in your mind. Do you feel like you’re using them? Do you feel like you’re dirtying yourself by associating with whores?

    What resistance comes up in your mind when you think of girls in a sexual way?

    We’re getting in our own way. But a very good first step is to realize how FUCKING HARD you’ve had it — YOU DESERVE MORE. In the privacy of your own mind (at first), start putting YOUR NEEDS FIRST. YOUR DESIRES FIRST. Period.

    Your lack of sex, and my lack of sex, are both successful creations of our respective minds. We have successfully avoided something that we grew up to believe was bad, dangerous, harmful, etc.

    But obviously it’s caused us a lot of suffering. Our limbic brain doesn’t know that. It simply perceives a threat and tries to protect you.

    When this resistance comes up, the fear of sex, even beating yourself up about never having sex — to snap yourself back to reality, try to IMMEDIATELY tell yourself as a response to any anxiety/fear/anger/resistance you’re feeling:

    “I’m okay. Thank you for trying to keep me safe. But I’ve got this. Thanks for letting me know you’re concerned, but I’m going to handle this from here.”

    I’m convinced for guys like us the biggest battle is within our minds. Changing our belief system by LETTING GO of self-limiting beliefs we have that are trying to keep us safe.

    Approaching still scares the hell out of me. This is a fantastic opportunity to notice resistance. How do you know you’re scared of going on a date or trying to hook up with a girl?

    You can close your eyes right now and imagine it. Or go on a dating site, even, or go out and look at some girls and start thinking about approaching them.

    Notice what comes up. What do you feel? How do you know you feel it?

    As soon as you feel that resistance come up, just tell yourself: It’s okay. Thanks for the concern, but I can handle this myself. I appreciate it but I’m okay!

    Something like that. The words don’t really matter as much as the fact that they interrupt the response of the limbic system and give your brain a chance to start rewiring how it responds to the environment. Kind of like Pavlovian conditioning in reverse.

    I’m no expert at this, but I *did* use it to go from never having initiated anything with a girl to having my first-ever hookup. It was one time. But it was plenty of proof to me that we really can change our beliefs. That was a monumental event to me. I’m sure it would be to you too.

    I’d wish you good luck, but it takes the discipline and repetition and regard and care for yourself, and prioritization of yourself. I have to keep this in mind too. I am so pissed off and hurt and sad and everything else so much of the time I have to be at the very top of my game just to keep myself going every day.

    But it does get easier the more you do it. I’m struggling but nowhere near as much as I was at earlier points in my life.

    I hope this comment can be of some value to you. Hang in there. And remember, there is nothing wrong with you. You’re not broken. Your fears and anxieties, just like mine, are perfect creations of your mind — your limbic system is trying to keep you safe.

    As you dissolve the fight or flight responses to all these different stimuli your entire world will start to change one color at a time. Notice the resistance, know that the resistance is trying to protect you, and make peace with it by declaring that you’re okay, you heard the warning, you heard the concern, but you’re okay and are going to handle things from here.

  49. @Softek”I’m convinced for guys like us the biggest battle is within our minds. Changing our belief system by LETTING GO of self-limiting beliefs we have that are trying to keep us safe.”

    Thanks for your response. Though I should let you know, I’m female. You (and maybe some others) might be wondering why then am I posting on a Manosphere forum? The truth is, I don’t mean to impose as I understand this is intended as a male space, but I just find it very helpful to read and post where I can gain valuable and diverse male perspectives on the subject (even if I don’t always agree with what’s being said.)

    I agree with what you wrote about self-limiting beliefs “trying to keep us safe.” I realize now that this is probably what my parents and religion was trying to do by portraying sexuality the way they did. Trying to keep me “safe” from the “evils of temptation” and all that jazz. Of course, you know as well as I do how damaging that kind of attitude can really be, but I guess the most important thing is that we now realize as adults that what we were taught was inaccurate and that we don’t need to continue believing in it just because it’s how we were raised.

  50. @George”Sexual experience is not necessary for maturity in a “general” sense and If we are too obsessed with sex we can slow our maturity. There are some people (in my opinion) who experience it but never aquire a mature understanding of it because they are too obsessed with fantasies associated with it. However, we must experience sex to really understand and appreciate it.”

    Thanks so much for the more detailed explanation. I really appreciate it.

  51. @Confused re: “I personally don’t know of any” women who are confused and resist being directed by men, such as me.

    Try looking in the mirror, and get back to me. Heh, heh.

    This is the part, as we’re sitting at the Waffle House counter, where you insisted on meeting me, again, to “Just, you know, talk. And stuff.”, at almost midnight, on non-adjacent stools (a hard-and-fast rule I slowly-and-softly break hardly ever for young women I agree to “just talk. And stuff” with) that you let a tear slip from the eye nearest me, and smirk, in your mannish overcoat/trenchcoat thing covering your babydoll nightgown that you put on even while thinking, maniacally, wildly, as if you could be viewed by a passer-by as a flasher-guy. Emphasis on guy. And you deliberately tip over your half-full little Waffle House glass of water, to make a long puddle on the counter towards me, and as we watch the spill begin to drip between us, the glass also rolls off the edge.

  52. @jf

    “Try looking in the mirror, and get back to me. Heh, heh.”

    I looked. But still saw no sign of the 30 something woman matching your description, sorry. Heh.heh

    “This is the part, as we’re sitting at the Waffle House counter, where you insisted on meeting me, again, to “Just, you know, talk. And stuff.”,
    at almost midnight, on non-adjacent stools (a hard-and-fast rule I slowly-and-softly break hardly ever for young women I agree to “just talk.”

    I recall no such meeting at a “Waffle House counter at almost midnight, on non-adjacent stools” Why would we even need to meet anywhere when we can chat (not sure what you were trying to imply by ” just talk and stuff”) right here on the inter-webz? So much more convenient. Besides, I don’t even like waffles, crepes are so much better! Wouldn’t you agree?

    “with that you let a tear slip from the eye nearest me, and smirk, in your mannish overcoat/trenchcoat thing covering your babydoll nightgown that you put on even while thinking, maniacally, wildly, as if you could be viewed by a passer-by as a flasher-guy.”

    Wrong again there jf. I don’t own any such articles of clothing and I was never one for stunts like flashing. I don’t know how those Mardi Gras girls do it!

    “Emphasis on guy”

    And you’re trying to say?

    “And you deliberately tip over your half-full little Waffle House glass of water, to make a long puddle on the counter towards me, and as we watch the spill begin to drip between us, the glass also rolls off the edge.”

    Even if this imaginary meeting you’ve concocted really did happen, I can assure you my half-full (not half-empty) glass would have remained firmly planted on the counter and not “deliberately” tipped as you claim. By the way, do you write fiction for a living? This is some pretty creative and imaginative stuff!:)

  53. Is the thread full up then? Explains the recent plague of double posting, as hitting [send] produces no observable result.

  54. [Roy Rogers warning: I am not being gratuitously offensive here, merely playing it absolutely straight as I see it, given the minimal amount of information grudgingly conceded, to save going all round the houses. Is that clear? Good.
    Are you sitting comfortably? Then we’ll begin ..]

    Looks like a rare female case of Asperger’s or whatever fancy name the trickcyclists have for it now.
    Explains the unsex, lasting into middle age. Excessive literalism, check; absolute humorlessness, check; “masculine energy”, check (WTF is that anyhow? Like cold fusion or something?); “too independent”, in my experience, is a mealy-mouthed circumlocution by nervous types for “utterly self-absorbed, and intolerable in a confined space”.
    HTH (obviously (((((hugggzzzz))))) would be a waste of time, and invariably misinterpreted).

    [disclaimer: IANAshrink/doctor/priest. I am a carpenter, and my cure for everything looks like a hammer. Because it is]

  55. Although I presented only the general case, the specific case, that she is a flaming Aspie/BPD, did, in fact, occur to me.

  56. @Confused: You seem to be engaged in a “performative” here, after many comments and replies.

    Rollo told you, and BV (succinctly) told you roughly the same. I’ll try, almost certainly to no avail. The themes are consistent.

    Sex itself, of course, does make one an adult. What others have tried to explain is that sex (including its aftermath) can trigger a range of feelings, sensations, and thoughts that would otherwise be nearly impossible to access and predict–and that this is central, whatever happens, to maturing into a full adult.

    You’re now into your 30s, without having undergone this process nor, more worryingly, evincing any understanding or feel for how this works. Grown men, let alone relatively desirable ones (i.e., men with options), really don’t have time or interest to deal with your type of situation. The sex, in the unlikely event that things were to get that far, probably wouldn’t be that good, or the aftermath would be too troublesome–which they can reasonably infer based on the (self-described) circumstances that have led you to this point, never mind your utter lack of sexual experience.

    In short, the prognosis, on the sexual front, simply is not good. Men who might find you particularly interesting as a person are likely to prefer being a chaste friend. There are too many other women out there more willing, eager, experienced, and possessed of self-knowledge as a adult sexual being. Basically, then, the burden is on you to do the convincing–and probably to men who have fewer options, making them more willing to deal with an unpromising situation.

  57. @Tam the Bam
    “Explains the unsex, lasting into middle age. Excessive literalism, check; absolute humorlessness, check; “masculine energy”, check (WTF is that anyhow? Like cold fusion or something?); “too independent”, in my experience, is a mealy-mouthed circumlocution by nervous types for “utterly self-absorbed, and intolerable in a confined space”.

    Alright, somehow I think my last post to jf12 is what may have triggered this response. For the record, it was meant as a tongue in cheek (NOT literal) response to jf and I was simply mirroring what he wrote to me. If I was found to be “absolute humorous” (not really what I was going for anyways) and then fair enough. However, I can assure you that I’m NOT an Aspie, BDP (as someone else stated) or any of the other descriptions that you have for me.

  58. “Although I presented only the general case, the specific case, that she is a flaming Aspie/BPD, did, in fact, occur to me.”

    I’ve been called a lot of things but never “a flaming Aspie/BPD” I guess there’s a first time for everything, but for just the record, I have no such conditions.

  59. @anonG

    “You seem to be engaged in a “performative” here, after many comments and replies.”

    I don’t mean to be engaged in a performative and I’m honestly not trying to be disruptive or get attention. The reason for some of my recent comments and replies was because I had previously received some responses to some of my posts a few days ago and only yesterday was did I had a chance to reply to all of them. Hence my consecutive comments on the thread.

    “Rollo told you, and BV (succinctly) told you roughly the same. I’ll try, almost certainly to no avail. The themes are consistent.
    Sex itself, of course, does make one an adult. What others have tried to explain is that sex (including its aftermath) can trigger a range of feelings, sensations, and thoughts that would otherwise be nearly impossible to access and predict–and that this is central, whatever happens, to maturing into a full adult.”

    I appreciate your reply (as well as Rollo’s, BV’s and everyone else who responded) and I hope you don’t feel that it’s to no avail, but this notion I keep hearing here about how sex “and its aftermath triggering a range of feelings, sensations, and thoughts,” honestly seems to be based on opinion rather than any hard evidence.That’s why I keep questioning it. I’ve tried to do research on the subject, I took a Human Sexuality course in college, I’ve talked to my friends about it (all who are married with children) and oddly enough, nothing that I’ve ever read, and no one who I’ve talked to (in real life) on the subject has indicated that sex significantly changes maturity levels and outlooks. I know virgins who are mature and non-virgins who are pretty much adult children. Sorry, I really don’t mean to be argumentative, these have just been my real life observations.If I could at least find some sources based on actual research then I may reconsider my stance.

    “You’re now into your 30s, without having undergone this process nor, more worryingly, evincing any understanding or feel for how this works. Grown men, let alone relatively desirable ones (i.e., men with options), really don’t have time or interest to deal with your type of situation. The sex, in the unlikely event that things were to get that far, probably wouldn’t be that good, or the aftermath would be too troublesome–which they can reasonably infer based on the (self-described) circumstances that have led you to this point, never mind your utter lack of sexual experience.”

    I can appreciate why you may think that. However, I do know people who were virgins when they married in their 30s and some who hadn’t even kissed anyone at that point. This practice is actually quite common in certain religious and cultural communities. I am North American born and raised but I’m descended from such cultural/religious communities. A lot of these communities have good, solid, happy marriages, so I just find hard to believe that lack of sexual experience before marriage or before 30, means that one is fated to a troublesome/unfulfilling sex life within a marriage or LTR. Aside from that, as I’ve previously mentioned my other posts, I’ve already done the work to overcome the effects of the circumstances that led me to my current situation,so I don’t need any man to “save me” or become my shrink. I wouldn’t expect that from him, nor is it necessary.

    “In short, the prognosis, on the sexual front, simply is not good. Men who might find you particularly interesting as a person are likely to prefer being a chaste friend.”

    If that’s what it comes to down, I’m sure I could live with that and still lead a good and happy life. I’m not desperate by any means, so far, I’ve done okay on my own. (contrary to some people’s perception of me). Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

  60. “I can assure you that I’m NOT an Aspie, BDP (as someone else stated) or any of the other descriptions that you have for me.”
    Fair enough. Then it’ll just remain a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
    I must have had the humor go whooshing over my head.
    Far too indescribable, complicated and difficult.
    Next.

  61. I’ve been getting laid on a regular basis since I was 17. All through my 20s, 30s and now 40s I’ve managed, with a good amount of predictability, to get laid and simply for the sake of enjoying it.

    So, for almost three decades now sex has been part of my life, but before that I remember being a teenager and making out and / or petting, dry humping and getting my first blow job from a girl at 15.

    I remember all the impatience, angst, enjoyment and awkwardness of all that, but from this side, after 3 decades of sex being another part of my life, it speaks volumes to me when I read about a woman at 30 something years old who’s still in her adolescence with regard to sex.

    Were I to find myself single tomorrow at 46, I would never entertain the idea of dating, much less personally investing myself in a 30 year old woman who’d never been so much as kissed and needed the same degree of convincing to be sexual that a 15 year old girl would need.

    I’m sure you’re a nice girl and probably intelligent, affable, and have many redeeming personal qualities, but as a guy who’s known how to get laid for my entire adult life, do you understand where I’m coming from?

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/06/26/you-need-sex/

    If I said I felt pity for men like the blogger I mentioned earlier, who through their own conviction or bad circumstance, have never had sex in their lives, I don’t think I’d be accurate in expressing myself. I feel a profound sadness for them; a sadness similar to when you meet someone who’s lost a limb or has had to live with a physical or mental disability. For guys who want to tell you that you don’t need sex to live a fulfilling life I’m sure this sounds like conceit. There are plenty of inspirational individuals who live their lives without arms or legs, or with other disabilities, that we can all look up to for “overcoming the odds”, but the reason they are inspiring is because they must strive for a quality of life that others simply take for granted. Run a marathon and it’s quite an achievement, but do it as a paraplegic and it’s a triumph of human will.

    Sometimes a sexless life is a choice of conviction, but more often it’s not a choice for men, it’s simply their circumstance. I grieve every time I read a comment by, or receive a painful request for help from a late 30’s man who’s still a virgin. Sex is a part of a healthy human experience; if you want to apply meaning to it, if you only consider its legitimacy within marriage or monogamy, or if you enjoy sex with many women, the function is still the same.

  62. @ Confused

    Who are you trying to convince that you’re doing okay?

    The effects on maturity and development, etc., are all irrelevant. I face the same problem of over-analyzing things. I think it’s a defense mechanism.

    IMO you would not have any interest in reading or thinking about sex unless you wanted to have it.

    I think the best course of action for you, as well as for me, and any other ‘late term virgins,’ is to just drop the beating around the bush and get down to the business of how to get sex. With the one girl I initiated a hookup with, it was a girl I thought had a very high interest level in me based on how she was communicating with me.

    And I was right. I knew I was right but I was so scared of saying anything.

    So I just snapped and I just asked her point blank if she wanted to get together. I said I wasn’t interested in a relationship but would she still want to get together anyway? I said I wanted a fuck buddy and she said she was sure I could find someone like that if I started playing gigs, and then I asked her if she’d be up for that. She got all thrown off by how direct I was, and was all, “You mean me?” I was like “Yeah,” and then she said “definitely.” I talked her into coming over that very night instead of waiting for the weekend like she wanted to.

    I’m not sure how to meet up with her again because she got really distant after we got together and I kind of dropped the ball. Don’t know about that.

    But it was an experience very worth having.

    In Taoism it’s said that you can only release attachments and desires once you realize the emptiness in them. There’s one story about a guy who overcomes his obsession with sex by more or less fucking his brains out in a brothel on a regular basis.

    It’s not about someone ‘saving you,’ as you already know. It’s not about anyone doing anything for you. You have to let go of resistance like that. It’s just a defense mechanism, probably because you’re anxious about pursuing sex.

    The real question is, why shouldn’t you be having sex? Is there any good reason you should deny yourself that? What good reasons do you have to avoid it?

    Is it not worth pursuing even solely for the pleasure of it?

    One of my friends in his 40’s stopped pursuing this girl because she was a virgin and wanted to “wait.” He dated her for a few months and eventually just dumped her because it was pissing him off. She was in her 30’s.

    If it isn’t important for maturity or development or whatever, then just do it. It’s something you haven’t experienced, and because of that, it’s inevitable that your perspective about it will change after experiencing it.

    Does that mean you’ll be more mature or developed or anything? I don’t know and I don’t care.

    Just from my own experience, whether it’s male or female late-term virgins, it IS a giant red flag that some major defense mechanisms are in place.

    Having been suicidal, self-mutilated and fit the whole profile for BPD, I don’t believe in BPD. I believe in internal references — belief systems that we operate from.

    The difference between someone with ‘BPD’ and someone who doesn’t have it are internal references. ‘BPD’ people look crazy to other people, because those other people don’t have the same internal references. They don’t have the memories and emotions and belief systems that operate as “how-to” manuals for operating in the world.

    They don’t understand why someone would act that way because they are operating from a different how-to manual. It doesn’t make sense to them because they don’t understand the structure of problems: belief systems that are supported by memories and the attached emotions.

    So it doesn’t matter if you have BPD or not. It’s all internal references. And it’s clear you are resistant, one way or another, to having sex. This is obvious in your reading about it and trying to learn about it without actually having it. I’ve done the same thing most of my life.

    Once you realize that you’re the only one getting in your way, you can start getting out of your own way.

    It isn’t about someone ‘fixing’ you. It isn’t about someone ‘putting up with you.’

    Although I will say that you’re probably going to have a very hard time if you’re not sexually open while you’re pursuing a guy. You have to be willing to admit that you do in fact want to experience sex and then make yourself available to experience it. If you freak out and hold out like that girl my friend was dating did any ‘relationship’ you get into is probably not going to last very long and will probably end up making you more depressed.

    I’ve been accused of being an Aspie/having BPD and have also reacted to comments over the years in a very similar manner that you have: getting defensive but trying very hard to stay polite and logical, feeling attacked without really showing that you feel attacked.

    Honestly I think it’s all tied back to defense mechanisms, which in this case are rooted in all the unconscious beliefs we have about why we can’t have sex, why it’s bad, why it’s dangerous, etc.

    You say you’ve come to terms with your past but if you’re not having sex, have you really? Wouldn’t having — and enjoying — sex actually be the best proof for being freed of the negative religious beliefs about how bad and evil it is?

    Anyway, just some food for thought. In any areas I was attacking you I was only doing it to deliberately make you mad so you could be aware that I’m pushing your buttons — those buttons are the blueprint for finding out what your hangups are, what you have resistance to.

    Leave the baggage behind and focus on how to get sex is my approach for myself and what I’d advise to any other late-term virgins. You can’t change what happened in the past, but you can change how you hold it. You can accept it for what it was and then choose to live differently now.

    Just the idea of pursuing sex, if it makes you anxious, is an excellent way to identify your hangups about it. Think about pursuing it, put yourself in situations where you’re tempted to do something but are too anxious to, notice your physical responses, and remind yourself that they’re just physical responses based on unconscious beliefs you have.

    Anyway, just entertain the idea and leave all the academic stuff behind. Just admit you want to have sex and notice any anxiety/resistance/etc. that comes up, and start working on that. If you don’t address that stuff you will just keep making excuses for yourself for why you shouldn’t have sex when it’s clearly bothering you that you’re not having it.

    You want it but are not having it. Period. Don’t overcomplicate it, and just start working through your resistance to having it.

    You have nothing to prove to anyone. If you want to go through your entire life without having sex, that’s your choice, but it really doesn’t sound like that would be what you really want.

    I’ve tried to talk myself out of the idea that I need sex and I always just end up either going on porn or fantasizing and beating off because the reality is I have anxiety about pursuing sex. It’s that simple. It can feel very difficult to work through but when you stop beating around the bush it actually becomes much less of a burden.

  63. Our maiden, an expert on that which she abjures:

    “The simple fact that I lack “experience” in one area, (which isn’t by the way rocket science and can be learned like any thing else) that would cause them to think that?”

    A) you literally don’t know what you’re talking about. B) you think, apparently, that men exist to teach you things and that such a pedagogical experience is sexually meaningful for a man. C) your self-centered nature, evidently, prevents you from observing that men enjoy being loved, as much as they enjoy loving women.

    You have nothing to offer most men as a lover. In fact, for most men, you are the worst of all lovers: someone who thinks sex is something a man does to a woman, while he takes care of himself, and applauds herself for giving up the pussy. Newsflash: the only men who are interested in this situation are A) desperate, twisted and likely incompetent in the sack; B) religious and anti-sex themselves; C) charmed to be around solipsistic, sexually incompetent women.

    You’re not getting any action and are being told you’re too young because your average 14 year-old these days knows more about sex, and because the men you’re talking to suspect that sexual activity with you will exist somewhere on a vector between “profoundly awkward” and “profoundly boring.” It’s an enormous error to assume that because you have female genitalia that grown men are therefore going to gasp with delight at the prospect of seeing it. That’s a perspective that expired for most men about the time they entered their sophomore year in college, and much earlier if they were early-maturing jocks.

    I have a friend who just broke up with a beautiful 40-something woman, who is a mother, and a professional. He broke up with her, or at least gave her time-out, because she thought it was appropriate for him to teach her basic sexual skills. She thought that doing so would be meaningful for him, and that if the roles were reversed (i.e., he was sexually incompetent while expecting her to give him pleasure while he offered her nothing other than his presence) she would be fine with it.

    This idea that sex is something that men do for and to women, while men are gratified just for being there, underlies Confused’s self-serving “I’m here and I’m finally ready, where are the men?” outlook. It reminds me of all the late-30’s women I’ve dated, who say, “I finally know what I want so men feel free to apply to take care of me!” Sure. That’s my role in life. After I had spent 20 or 30 years taking care of my career, companies and several other people, rather than 20 years on the sexual playground and on the competitive adventure travel circuit.

  64. @Softek writes:

    I don’t believe in BPD

    Rollo’s post on Borderline Personality Disorder is the most clear work ever written on the important topic. It will save countless lives. I’ve linked to it in other comments on this page.

    The movie “Imagine I’m Beautiful” premieres tonight with the writer, director and lead actor present afterward for a question/answer panel. It accurately depicts BPD (as Rollo described in his post) and its effects on each character.

    If you’re near Los Angeles today it premieres TODAY (10/19) at 5:20 p.m. at Arena Cinema Hollywood.

    Here’s the trailer. Consider what’s been written in recent comments:

  65. Were I a much younger man, and unmarried, I wouldn’t (and didn’t) hesitate to express some interest in an attractivish N=0 31 yr old woman, to see where it might go. And I know I and all the other guys whose earlier life experiences, albeit not preferences, have been that “sex is something that men do for and to women” within marriage, are commonplace. A girl can’t walk around a block without tripping over several of us.

    I wouldn’t have been at all put off by a woman expressing some interest in me (i.e. her doing the work) even in the 1960s. And now here we are five decades after the sexual revolution, which the women won of course, and an attractive youngish women is claiming that she is approaching men, especially older men, expressing interest in the men, and the men think she’s dorky or something, and recoil. I’m not buying it. At all. Sorry, Charlie.

    Men actually sexually like dorky girls, the way that women lie about liking dorky guys. Men actually sexually like girls period. Men are easy.

  66. “I’ve been called a lot of things but never “a flaming Aspie/BPD” I guess there’s a first time for everything . . .”

    In face to face encounters men will think it, and then make their excuses on their way out the door. It is simple self preservation. Here they will talk frankly.

    ” . . . but for just the record, I have no such conditions. I can assure you that I’m NOT an Aspie, BDP . . .”

    If you do have an empathic personalitly disorder, your assurances are worthless. If you do not, others do, and so your assurances are worthless. I assure you you are projecting as someone who “isn’t put together right.”

    “you literally don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    Other than on a minor point of typography, this is exactly what I would have written had not BV beat me to it and I note your resistence to listen and learn from people who do, despite ostensibly being here to do exactly that. This is indicative of a lack of empathy.

  67. Ah BV, think of the lovers from the 17th century et. al., Cyrano, Romeo, Don, etc.

    Does not a man like this exist anymore to swoop Confused away to a land of happiness?

  68. @ BuenaVista, October 18th, 2014 at 11:52 am

    “Well, Glengarry, if it pleases you to occupy the same moral plane as the false rape accusers, you are absolutely correct in your analysis. You are also absolutely correct if you think there will be no blowback (further harming men) from such gratuitous personal destruction. I’d say your satisfaction in the trophy-mounting that Goldmund practices is entirely appropriate, if both prior premises strike you as correct.”
    .

    I am going to have to side with BuenaVista on this.

    It is proper to generalize to probabilities, but not to specifics. It is true that many women do not act like good people, but this actually says nothing about any specific woman.

    So it is quite proper, and even prudent, to say: “Because many women are …, the risk is too great for me, so I will avoid …”

    However, it is not proper, or moral, to say: “Because many women are …, or because some specific women did … to me, I am going to (potentially) hurt some random woman (who may not be part of any particular ‘many women’ group).”

    Men can act on principles, while women operate on instinct (of the moment), and principles are a meaningless concept to them. So men have to realize (and decide) that either they are different from women, or they are not.

    This is similar to how the messages at some MRA sites seem to add up to: “We have shown that women are incapable of accomplishing anything without the guidance, or at least the approval and support, of men. So women did all of this to us, and the only way to get anything to change or to get equal rights, is to act toward women like most women act toward many men, until they feel bad enough to tell the men who make rules to change how we are treated.”

  69. @ Livefearless

    My friend dated a girl for 3 years who had ‘BPD,’ and was severely affected by that experience, I (used to) fit the description for it from the DSM perfectly, I’ve had over 13 years firsthand experience as a patient in both inpatient, institutionalized therapy and outpatient therapy, been on all kinds of medications, etc.

    I was abused, neglected, bullied and also on one occasion molested growing up, have scars all over my body from years of self mutilation, history of dissociative/psychotic episodes and threatening to kill myself as well as other people, and I have understand inside and out what abandonment issues feel like, and have experienced chronic panic attacks, episodes of rage where I would punch out windows or punch holes in the wall or come close to assaulting people in a single snap of rage, and on a few occasions delusional psychotic episodes as a result of feeling/actually being abandoned by people that I loved.

    But when you label something like that and make it into a “thing” — a personality disorder — it basically becomes a death sentence.

    That’s what I disagree with. I don’t think that BPD ‘doesn’t exist’ in the sense that the symptoms expressed in what is called BPD don’t exist — I just don’t think diagnoses are helpful.

    But psychiatry is the system we have established and it likes to categorize things. Personally I think the best answer is that it’s all internal references — whatever it is. I’ve also had OCD as well as ‘bipolar’, ‘major depression’, ‘general anxiety,’ ‘agoraphobia,’ etc. The lists never end. Just thinking about all those labels is enough to give someone a mental disorder.

    A much simpler view is: in order to have these problems you have to know how to have them — which is why it’s no coincidence that there’s a high occurrence of a history of abuse and neglect with BPD.

    You have to know how to feel abandoned. You have to know how to feel insanely jealous. You have to know how to feel left out. And to feel rage and hurt and pain and anger about all these things, and you also have to know how not to express them in healthy ways.

    I’m still struggling to find healthy ways to operate, but I’m recovering. My life has been a living hell for basically as long as I can remember but as I’ve been working on myself I’ve been slowly coming out of it.

    I don’t disagree with the reality of BPD symptoms. It’s definitely a cluster of symptoms — a pattern, or a ‘golden thread.’

    But having experienced these things myself (I actually found myself sympathizing more with my friend’s BPD girlfriend at the time than him, even though she hated my guts because he was spending more time some days hanging out with me than with her)…

    …I think the healthiest attitude is to understand that these behaviors are a result of *knowing how to have the problem.*

    And from my own experience I do think there’s a lot of hope for people diagnosed with BPD. I have another male friend who has been diagnosed with it, we are on the same page with a lot of things, and since I started learning Faster EFT I’ve been using that on myself and have been doing sessions on him to help him improve.

    So to clarify, that’s what I mean when I say I don’t believe BPD exists. The symptoms and behaviors in the patterns as laid out in the DSM definitely exist — I just think it can be counterproductive to label it BPD.

    Because what really matters is what the person is doing in their mind to create these feelings and behaviors. You could call it Reverse Pavlovian Conditioning, but using hypnosis to break up emotional triggers can literally re-frame a person’s mind.

    e.g., when I was on here and getting made fun of because I was having panic attacks after being rejected by my ONE-itis fixation at the time, I eventually started working through it by going inside my own mind.

    What was it? Abandonment. Rejection. Feeling unlovable, unwanted, worthless, etc. And also all the rage that comes up — black and white splitting. One minute I ‘love’ this girl and want to be with her and the next I want to kill her for loving and having sex with someone who isn’t me.

    Without getting too much into it: doing the reverse conditioning, i.e., closing your eyes and imagining upsetting scenarios, noticing how you KNOW they’re upsetting (what do you feel? what pictures are in your mind? etc.), and then using a ‘trance breaker’ to dissolve that response —

    — eventually you can get to a point where you think about this upsetting situation, and it no longer upsets you. It stops being upsetting.

    What happened to the BPD? I still have traces of all the symptoms. But they’re much less than they used to be, and I’m convinced that if I keep at it, they will go away.

    I could’ve said I don’t believe that there are broken people. Personality disorders, etc., are results of broken ideas, broken programs, broken ways of operating in the world — but not broken people. Programs/ideas can be changed.

    I have seen and talked to people at inpatient in hospitals with severe paranoid schizophrenia who didn’t make any sense at all, but I could get them to laugh and calm down and I don’t think even they are broken. Even in the seeming craziness of their behaviors I noticed in every one of them there was congruity. Including myself, when I look back at bizarre behaviors I had.

    It looks crazy and illogical, but from a limbic standpoint it makes perfect sense. The behaviors are there because they’re trying to keep you safe. Even though they’re ruining your life. For example, I learned that people paid attention to me most when I was hurt or in danger. So I used threatening suicide and self mutilation and poor communication to cry out for attention. I never learned any other way to get it.

    I was just doing all I knew how to do to survive the best I could.

    My concern with things like the BPD movie is that they can sensationalize it, and I guess it’s okay to spread awareness about conditions, but I think it’s a much better idea to spread awareness about how to heal conditions.

    Even if it’s a generally universal symptom cluster, I think calling it BPD can do more to stigmatize and isolate people than bring them together. It’s like if you think someone has leprosy or something.

    And from my own perspective, having had a generally shitty and horrible life as far as interpersonal stuff goes, I don’t think it’s fair to write people off as “damaged goods,” as a lot of times these are people like me who didn’t even have a chance to begin with.

    We’re all just born into whatever environment we’re born into, and we do the best we can to survive.

    Some people have generally normal lives, grow up with normal issues and have ups and downs like everyone else does. Other people like me grow up in extreme environments and develop habits and belief systems and behavioral patterns that make it extremely difficult to integrate into normal society, sexual relationships, etc.

    I believe people can heal and as long as that’s the end goal of learning about these things, and people remember that, I’m okay with it.

    But a lot of people who don’t have ‘BPD’ or the associated symptoms (i.e. internal references) will just write them off as crazy psychos that need to be avoided.

    My friend got on a forum for guys who’d been in relationships with girls with BPD. I’m not writing that off. But I do think that people tend to focus on labeling things so they can feel like they’re part of a group, feel less alone, at the expense of completely understanding the greater issue and all the nuances behind it.

    Again, not that that isn’t real or can’t be helpful — just that it’s only looking at a part of the issue.

    BPD after all is a psychiatric diagnosis, not a physiological diagnosis like diabetes or cancer. There are nuances to it. I would much rather people not label themselves and believe they can heal —

    — or label themselves with the intention of the label being temporary. That I have BPD now, I have this problem, but I have this problem for a reason, and as I find out what those reasons are, I can start to let go of these issues and eventually not have them anymore.

    ‘BPD’ is hell on earth, it is a nightmare to live with those thoughts and crazy behaviors and all that pain that you basically can’t express.

    You have to face the reality of what you’re dealing with, and if labeling yourself or being diagnosed with BPD is a way to help with that, I’m all for it, but I think most of the time people use it to put themselves in a box to justify why they’re messed up, and stay messed up through justifying it, instead of letting go of the problems and learning how to heal so they don’t have them anymore.

    After all, for a person like me, saying I have BPD, or PTSD, or telling my story about my horrible childhood…is a program I still use to try to get love and attention from people.

    If you believe that you have to be in pain to receive love and support and that being in pain is a buffer or insurance against abandonment — if they see how much pain I’m in, they’ll be less likely to leave me — why would you want to let go of the pain?

    And so people like me can attach to diagnoses and get stuck on “I have this” or “I have that”…instead of realizing that you don’t have to have or be anything in particular to get love and support.

    You just have to change your programs to seeking love and support in healthy ways, and once you realize you can get what you want without going psycho apeshit, the whole hormonal/biological system that is making you go apeshit, as a result of thinking you NEED to in order to get what you want…..will stop.

    When you know it’s safe to let it go, you can let it go. Anyway that was my point. I’d’ve written it more concisely if I could.

  70. BuenaVista, you surprise me. I never figured you for a scold and I don’t buy your shaming. But please, I wouldn’t want you to exert yourself too far either; by all means call for the head of some dumb blogger with a video that will be taken down by the cops or a lawyer on demand. Society will, I’m sure, thank you.

    Well, Glengarry, if it pleases you to occupy the same moral plane as the false rape accusers, you are absolutely correct in your analysis. You are also absolutely correct if you think there will be no blowback (further harming men) from such gratuitous personal destruction. I’d say your satisfaction in the trophy-mounting that Goldmund practices is entirely appropriate, if both prior premises strike you as correct.

  71. Softek writes:

    My concern with things like the BPD movie is that they can sensationalize it

    Funny you mentioned that, Naomi McDougall Jones, writer and lead actor of the film, addressed that:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jptL2p1xwjM

    “this man stood up (in the audience) and he said ‘I’m the father of somebody with borderline personality disorder, and I’ve never seen this portrayed FAIRLY on screen.’ He said it’s always villainized or SENSATIONALIZED, and he said ‘That is my daughter, and I feel less alone now.'”
    ~Naomi McDougall Jones

    As I’ve written, I’ve no involvement with this film, but I am impressed that that the this movie handles the subject matter delicately, fairly with compassion. BPD is never mentioned during the film.

    It’s going to be a while before “Imagine I’m Beautiful” is available DVD, Blu-Ray, Amazon Prime or Netflix. If you’re near Los Angeles, this afternoon is the time to see it since the writer, lead actor and director will be there to discuss your questions.

  72. “But a lot of people who don’t have ‘BPD’ or the associated symptoms (i.e. internal references) will just write them off as crazy psychos that need to be avoided. ”

    I was not put here to heal you, nor was I put here to allow you to destroy my life. In another time and culture I might well feel obligated to kill you, not out of any sence of malice, but strictly to protect myself.

    And this is one of the issues you will have to confront in your own process of self-healing.

    You are, perfectly legitimately, to be avoided until such time as your behaviours are safe for other people to be around.

  73. @Confused

    “Sorry, I really don’t mean to be argumentative, these have just been my real life observations.If I could at least find some sources based on actual research then I may reconsider my stance.”

    No need to apologize to me. You came here ostensibly seeking guidance. You’re welcome to “reconsider” whatever, whenever, whyever you please.

    “However, I do know people who were virgins when they married in their 30s and some who hadn’t even kissed anyone at that point…. A lot of these communities have good, solid, happy marriages, so I just find hard to believe that lack of sexual experience before marriage or before 30, means that one is fated to a troublesome/unfulfilling sex life within a marriage or LTR.”

    Then why did you come here as if you had a problem 1) with your situation, 2) getting honest, helpful guidance. Just keep waiting and maybe a higher being will provide. Or maybe someone in these “communities” will be kind enough to set you up. Anyway, you seem impressed with the quality of relationships and sex in these “communities.” So why not simply seek their guidance–especially since you appear not to have gleaned anything helpful via your interactions here?

    (No one said anything about “fated,” so no need to introduce that straw man.)

    “…I’ve already done the work to overcome the effects of the circumstances that led me to my current situation….”

    What adequate “work” could you have done (no, taking a Human Sexuality course doesn’t count) and how could you know the full “effects” of your sex-negative history, until you’ve had some kind of experience? Anyway, the men you might be interested in need the convincing. Problem is, most have learned enough, through their own experience, to be highly doubtful.

    “If that’s what it comes to down, I’m sure I could live with that and still lead a good and happy life…so far, I’ve done okay on my own.”

    No doubt you’re already communicating that–and the men you’re interested in are getting the message. This is the fundamental tension at the heart of the Strong, Independent Woman™.

  74. Glengarry, I regret your characterization of me as a scold. I do think, as another as noted, that there are principles at risk here, and that we ignore them at risk of being corrupt, or simply impractical (blowback potential). My faux agreement is just to indicate that I have no authority to scold anyone, but I retain my deep skepticism about the value that the posturing blogger with the toy camera (does he wear a fedora?) is bringing, and that the opposite side of this issue troubles me with its implications. I don’t really see how practicing pickup in environments where a one-eyed man is king (Manhattan, NOLA) warrants publishing nudie pics of unwitting liaisons.

    A) What value is *added* by outing her? B) I see lots of value *subtracted* by outing her. C) Even if she has the dough to go all litigious on the guy, what difference does it make once it’s published?

    Those of us with unconventional personal lives are perhaps far more sensitive to the effects of privacy violations. And it doesn’t make me a scold for asserting that privacy is a two-way street. Last, if we’re going to go swimming in the PUA kiddie pool, I can confidently assert that promising and providing absolute discretion is useful.

  75. JF12:

    “I wouldn’t have been at all put off by a woman expressing some interest in me (i.e. her doing the work) even in the 1960s. And now here we are five decades after the sexual revolution, which the women won of course, and an attractive youngish women is claiming that she is approaching men, especially older men, expressing interest in the men, and the men think she’s dorky or something, and recoil. … I’m not buying it.”

    I buy it because the men she’s been propositioning have already been to hell and back (loveless marriages, marital celibacy, state-sponsored punishment for leaving such situations, children crushed by child-weaponizing mothers). Little of that existed in your (and some of my) youth.

    Confused is essentially proposing transactional sex: man gives her attention, she takes her clothes off, soaring violins, roll credits. (Easy as pie! You put part A in receptacle B, and what’s to ponder, learn, develop?)

    However men who have been around the block may prefer validational sex: heart-stopping attentions, kindness and respect. And they may view transactional sex as a thrilling opportunity to rejoin the Bataan Death March of obligation, liability, divorce apocalypse — and scant emotional, psychological, and sexual compensation for taking the risk.

    She’s not propositioning 45 year-old virgins, you know. They don’t have to be red pill to intuit a set-up, a starfish, a woman who can waltz into divorce court and say, “I saved myself and presented my virginal innocence to that … to that … awful man. Just because he has some perverted desire for nonstop perverted, painful, violent sex doesn’t mean he’s entitled to my person! (Cue sobs.) I’m a person not an object! (Cue 5 nanosecond transition to just-the-facts.) Oh. And give me half of everything he owns, please, and we should not trust my children to his guardianship. Right, Judge?”

  76. @Buena Vista re: “And they may view transactional sex as a thrilling opportunity to rejoin the Bataan Death March of obligation, liability, divorce apocalypse”.

    Yes. Once burned, etc. Yet for many denominations, it is better to re-marry than keep re-burning. The open question is what is she bringing: i.e. the market value of the “emotional, psychological, and sexual compensation” she intends giving to him. I agree they/we/I are outta there if we smell set-up. If she wants, we could give her some pointers to not smell like that.

  77. @Rollo Tomassi

    “I’m sure you’re a nice girl and probably intelligent, affable, and have many redeeming personal qualities, but as a guy who’s known how to get laid for my entire adult life, do you understand where I’m coming from?”

    Thanks for your reply Rollo. I do understand where you’re coming from and I thank you for your expressing your views to me in a rational and respectful way.

  78. @BV”your self-centered nature, evidently, prevents you from observing that men enjoy being loved, as much as they enjoy loving women.
    You have nothing to offer most men as a lover. In fact, for most men, you are the worst of all lovers: someone who thinks sex is something a man does to a woman,”

    I never said anything about men not needing love. Nor did I say that sex is something that “a man does to a woman.” If you’re not clear about some of the statements I’ve made, I’d be happy to provide clarification, just please don’t make assumptions about what I’ve said. When I made my statement about sex not being “rocket science” I was just trying to say that I don’t think it’s this majorly complicated thing that a lot of people seem to make it out to be and figured out. Isn’t that what primal instinct is all about?

    “It’s an enormous error to assume that because you have female genitalia that grown men are therefore going to gasp with delight at the prospect of seeing it.”

    It’s ironic that you’re telling me not to assume when you’re doing just that. Yeah, I really think that because I have “female genitalia that grown men are therefore going to gasp with delight at the prospect of seeing it.”
    COME ON.Please. Not only is that another major assumption, it’s rather crude.

    “I finally know what I want so men feel free to apply to take care of me!” Sure. That’s my role in life. After I had spent 20 or 30 years taking care of my career, companies and several other people, rather than 20 years on the sexual playground and on the competitive adventure travel circuit.”

    I don’t need anyone to “teach” me anything or to “take care of me.” I think I’ve stated before that I work, make my own money and am definitely NOT looking for a sugar daddy but rather someone who’s company I enjoy, and respects and cares for me, as I would for him.

  79. @Anon
    “Then why did you come here as if you had a problem 1) with your situation, 2) getting honest, helpful guidance. Just keep waiting and maybe a higher being will provide.”

    I came here in good faith and I appreciate the honest, helpful guidance I’ve received from a lot of the posters.

    “Or maybe someone in these “communities” will be kind enough to set you up. Anyway, you seem impressed with the quality of relationships and sex in these “communities.” So why not simply seek their guidance–especially since you appear not to have gleaned anything helpful via your interactions here?”

    I spoke of these “communities” merely to show that there are people who marry when they’re older without previous sexual experience and do fine in their marriages contrary to what some of the posters on here say. I was not trying to say that these “communities” are superior in any way, nor was I trying to invoke an “us” vs “them” response. I don’t seek out the advice of these communities because as I’ve stated, they are mostly religious and traditional, and even though I do pray and believe in God, I lead a largely secular lifestyle (minus the sexual experience). Hence my reason for not trying to seek out partners in more religious circles. And I have in fact gleaned many useful things via my interactions “here” even if it may not seem that way to some.

    “(No one said anything about “fated,” so no need to introduce that straw man.)”

    No, but it just seemed to be implied. I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

    “…I’ve already done the work to overcome the effects of the circumstances that led me to my current situation….”
    What adequate “work” could you have done (no, taking a Human Sexuality course doesn’t count) and how could you know the full “effects” of your sex-negative history, until you’ve had some kind of experience?”

    I didn’t say the human sexuality course was part of the work I put in. Although I have done other work on overcoming what I was taught on the subject from early on in life. However after reflecting on what’s been written in this thread, I realize now that I still have a lot of work left to do.

    “If that’s what it comes to down, I’m sure I could live with that and still lead a good and happy life…so far, I’ve done okay on my own.”
    No doubt you’re already communicating that–and the men you’re interested in are getting the message. This is the fundamental tension at the heart of the Strong, Independent Woman™”

    I never thought I gave off that vibe but I realize now it’s quite possible I that am. (albeit unintentionally) I’m really going to try change the way I come across,

  80. @jf”And now here we are five decades after the sexual revolution, which the women won of course, and an attractive youngish women is claiming that she is approaching men, especially older men, expressing interest in the men”

    I think you might have misunderstood a few things in regards to my interactions with some of these guys. First of all, I wasn’t really “approaching” or “expressing interest” in the sense of just walking up to them, asking them on dates, or “propositioning” as one of the other posters so inaccurately seemed to assume. Also, it’s not that I’m specifically trying to look for men 15-25 years older than me, but rather that I just happen to sometimes meet guys who I find attractive and who happen to be in that age range.

    “I’m not buying it. At all. Sorry, Charlie”.
    and the men think she’s dorky or something, and recoil.”Men actually sexually like dorky girls, the way that women lie about liking dorky guys. Men actually sexually like girls period. Men are easy.”

    Ok, I’m a little confused now,(hence my screen name) so you’re saying these guys don’t like me because I’m “dorky” yet “men sexually like dorky girls because men are easy?” which one is it?

  81. @BV”I buy it because the men she’s been propositioning have already been to hell and back (loveless marriages, marital celibacy, state-sponsored punishment for leaving such situations, children crushed by child-weaponizing mothers). Little of that existed in your (and some of my) youth.”

    First of all, I’m not “propositioning” anyone. When I previously said that I’ve being interested in some of these guys, it wasn’t in the sense of walking up to them out of nowhere and telling them that I want to date them. And no, none of the guys I’ve interacted with match your description.at.all.

    “Confused is essentially proposing transactional sex: man gives her attention, she takes her clothes off, soaring violins, roll credits. (Easy as pie! You put part A in receptacle B, and what’s to ponder, learn, develop?)
    However men who have been around the block may prefer validational sex: heart-stopping attentions, kindness and respect. And they may view transactional sex as a thrilling opportunity to rejoin the Bataan Death”

    Again, there’s been NO “proposing” of any kind. And it bears repeating that my earlier comment about sex not being rocket science was not meant as “(Easy as pie! You put part A in receptacle B, and what’s to ponder, learn, develop?)” as you seem to think I was implying. It bears repeating that all I was trying to say was that it could be learned and that instinct would probably factor in.

  82. @jf

    “I agree they/we/I are outta there if we smell set-up. If she wants, we could give her some pointers to not smell like that.”

    If “they/we/I are outta there if we smell set-up” of what?

  83. @Confused re: “you’re saying these guys don’t like me because I’m “dorky””

    No, you said that. I said that was projection.

    re: “I think you might have misunderstood a few things in regards to my interactions with some of these guys.”

    I think, rather, you implied you actually expressed interest and they actually recoiled, and I understood correctly that you weren’t implying reality.

    re: “set-up of what”

    Now we’re getting somewhere. Let’s step back and recall that men *sexually* prefer nice girls. Men *sexually* prefer willing girls. Almost no women are actually good giving and game towards men (reread Buena Vista about that), as defined by men. So, give the GGG vibe and you will be swarmed by men continously. This is generic advice, but it applies.

    But you’ve also said that what you’re doing isn’t working: giving off the SIW vibe about not needing a man but you think you’re ready now to maybe consider a really great one if he danced to your tune properly. EXACTLY like the vast majority of other women. Hear us now. We men hate that; nothing is less attractive than a judgmental b-tch with lists of demands and hoops to jump through.

    So, the set-up here is men worried that they might get stuck into romancing a woman who is going to turn out to be picky, judgmental, neurotic, etc., after huge sunk costs of time and effort and money etc. So to avoid that odor to a guy, first you have to ensure that you are coming across as naturally cheap for him, in the sense that it would not take huge sunk costs for him. You are already far behind the curve on this one, so this is the hard part for you, sorry.

    Second, ensure that you are NOT giving off the picky, judgmental, neurotic, etc. SIW vibe. This is *easy* girl game: bat your eyes at him and tell him he’s SO smart and SO strong and SO capable and you made him his favorite sandwich which is now your favorite too because his tastes are SO wonderful, etc.

  84. Lazy girl’s primer, to supplement the guy up top’s sound counsel.
    (This just occurred to me)
    Go watch Bogie and Katie in “The African Queen” a couple three times.

    Observe the initial portrayal of Ms Hepburn’s persona; do not, by all that is holy, do ANY of this. Of course, you certainly are not. Obviously. Because you said so. Cough cough.

    Observe the latter part ; learn, mark and inwardly digest.

    Dunno why I bother. Ms Spock here is going to demand peer-reviewed citations, no doubt.

  85. Was it heartiste or Rollo who mentioned not to engage in any logical discussuon with a woman?

    When someone posts a comment in the blog and claims to be a woman, there a stream of men rushing to advise her…

  86. Pingback: Arm Candy |

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