Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany

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About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was right around the same week I published Alpha Agents of Righteous Karma and, coming from a fairly attractive woman, it highlighted many of the points I’d made in that post.

Commenter myreality asked me:

To what extent, if at all, do you think that validation hunting is part of male preference for large age differences when a man is in his late 30’s and beyond? It is definitely not 0%…

I think this is presuming a truth that isn’t.

The idea that men “seek validation” for their earned status or to ‘right’ past wrongs to their egos while they were working their way to that status is a social convention. The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

Have a look at my Sexual Market Value Graph. (click to enlarge)

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Although I’ve gone into explaining the loose metrics I’ve based this graph on several occasions, I’ve added some arrows here to illustrate a point that often gets missed or simply blown over because the truths it represents aren’t very flattering. Women would rather men not be aware of their own SMV potential prior to women being able to consolidate upon her sexual strategy.

Popular culture never presumes women are ‘validation hunting’ when they’re enjoying their peak SMV potential at 23 and (by order of degree) indulging that opportunity with men while at their peak. Women are acculturated to feel “empowered” by their sexuality, and really, no guy who wants to bang a hot 23 year old woman is ever going to rebuke her for it, much less develop social conventions to limit their odds of doing so.

However, men enjoying peak SMV in their mid to late 30’s are (by default) presumed to be vindicating themselves and validating their “fragile egos” by dating the younger (and in Jenny Bahn’s case an SMV peaked 23 year old no less) women they naturally find more attractive.

If there is any ‘validation’ for SMV peaked men it’s less about the sense of deserving a hot piece of ass or vindication for the women of his peer age who found him sexually invisible until he hit his peak, and more about validation in a new self-awareness that he finally is in a position of choosing and qualifying women for his intimacy rather than being filtered for his own acceptability for so long.

It’s not about turnabout or fair play now that the sexual selection shoe is on the other foot, but simple deductive pragmatism for a man who is aware of his own SMV and, assuming he’s hasn’t hamstrung his ability to maneuver, wants to exercise that value at (presumedly) the top of his game.

It’s not (usually) that he’s made a conscious effort to make himself an Alpha Agent of Righteous Karma, but that he steps into that role by default when the SMV balance shifts to his favor, and he naturally prefers sexual access to the best physical, and most sexually available woman his newly recognized SMV will afford him. That may not be a 23 year old coed, but it might be with a necessitous 29 year old looking for a solution to her long term investment.

About Those Arrows

One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation.

Critics who like to presume that this attraction is only based on looks, prowess and virility often don’t take this attraction prioritization into account. Obviously a more youthful man is in better physical shape when he’s younger, and if all we were considering was short term mating prospects and the Alpha Fuck side of feminine hypergamy this graph would look much different. However, once a woman has reached 30 (thank you Ms. Bahn) those attraction (not arousal) priorities look much different.

The primary reason I placed men’s peak SMV in his mid to late thirties is because, if he’s made the most of his potential, this is when he is most likely to have established himself in his status, affluence and achievements while (if he’s maintained himself) still retaining the looks of a more mature man.

It’s exactly women’s sexual prioritization at their most necessitous which puts men at the top of their SMV game. As I’ve detailed in many prior posts, hypergamy wants optimization (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks). Women’s pluralistic sexual strategy is optimized when a woman can consolidate a monogamous commitment from a man who can deliver a better genetic benefit and a better personal (providership) investment than her own SMV should realistically be able to warrant her.

In general, at no other point in a man’s life does he possess the a better potential to optimize women’s innate hypergamy.

If you follow the pink arrow, from about women’s 30th year that established SMV peaked man has the best potential to satisfy both aspects of the dualistic nature of hypergamy. It’s important to consider that when a woman reaches her 30s her sexual prioritization is affected by her own capacity to attract and hold male attention. What happens is a sort of subconscious establishing operation – as her capacity to attract becomes diminished, and as the next generation of SMV peaked women comes into their own, the urgency to cash out of the sexual market place increases.

So it’s not that the expectation should be one of 23 year old women wanting to get after it with 38 year old men (though this is exactly the scenario in Jenny Bahn’s story), but rather that 38 year old men increase exponentially in value to 30 year old women at a time when what he possess is what she needs the most.

Back in May a data set was released on Twitter from OKCupid founder Christian Rudder is his book Dataclysm: Who We Are (When We Think No One’s Looking)It’s a fascinating read actually and reinforces much of what I speculate about with regard to my own SMV graph.

Data_9780385347372_3p_all_r1.j.indd Data_9780385347372_3p_all_r1.j.indd

It’s important to remember that this data is based primarily on looks, but it illustrates the point of my adding the blue arrow to the graph. Men’s arousal and attraction triggers are virtually static. While men’s attraction value variates for women, it is a locked value for women.

While in her SMV peak – as we can see averaged her to around 22 – women enjoy the benefit of having the most sexual selectivity of their lives. However, the power of this selectivity declines as she ages and is further stressed by sexual competition as she does. And while men compete for sexual access to women, the sexual market value of the woman being competed for is still rooted in her capacity to attract attention and arouse men.

When in her SMV peak years, women’s preferences and sexual strategy supersede those of the men who would compete for her, however as she moves towards maturity, and as men ascend to their own SMV peak, a man’s preferences gradually take precedence over women’s.

Jenny Bahn, a reasonably attractive (former model) woman provides us with an excellent example of this transition.

Alex is 38. I’m 30. Technically, there are no “people our age.” But I’m starting to feel that a 30-year-old woman might as well be a 40-year-old man, though infinitely less desirable, culturally speaking.

At 40, a man is well into hitting his stride, something the guy I’m arguing with is all too aware of, as evidenced when he professes on multiple occasions, “I’m an amazing guy.” “We’re killing it. KILLING IT,” he tells me, while explaining that he’s been caught up in his rapidly expanding architecture firm.

[…]A 30-year-old woman is an undertaking, and it’s the real reason Alex has been putting me on the back burner for the past two months, telling me that I’m amazing and that he’s interested and then disappearing to hang out with a 23-year-old instead. Age ain’t nothing but a number, until it’s a number someone else doesn’t want to deal with.

As I mentioned in The Threat:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

Jenny, like most women in their Epiphany Phase, is now coming to terms with the transition of sexual selection power from what she once no doubt enjoyed to a man who’s made the most of his maturity and potential she wants to consolidate on in long term monogamy.

Jenny has a rare honesty and insight to recognize this, but naturally the ‘validation’ social convention is there to assuage her predicament. Even in her self-acceptance of her situation Alex is colored with an uncooperative attitude. His perspective is ‘incorrect’ in a fem-centric social order. If he were really ‘mature’ he would be dating and marrying Jenny (a victim of her own past decisions) instead of seeking ‘validation’ with a 23 year old hottie.

The presumption of Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old makes men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order. A mature, established man shouldn’t want to date women in their 20s, he should cooperate with the Feminine Imperative and validate Jenny’s sexual strategy by becoming monogamous with her.

What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny; women who delayed capitalizing on their SMV peak and now, at 30, find themselves on the necessitous side of that sexual selectivity.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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BuenaVista
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Agent P, at 10:32 a.m., discusses the illusory economic value of being an architect, and why it’s ironic (to anyone in the know) that Jenny ascribes socio-sexual prestige to him. I think his comment (entirely true) reveals much about Jenny’s quandary, how she got there, and where (absent change) she’ll wind up. Basically, these girls are still in college, where someone else pays the bills, looks carry the day, and tomorrow never comes. So sure, the cute guy with the atelier is high status to her, because he just looks like a guy who would be photographed well at an… Read more »

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So was posting highly intimate details online a part of this “art project”? Did he ever tell her that that’s what he was gonna do? Frankly, she should sue him (it is scandalous that thing isn’t removed yet, does she even know?). In ancient times, family men lynched those types of guys. This woman is easy to impress, but first and foremost she is a human being. How would you like to see your female relative’s picture with words like “she sucked my dick while I licked her ass” right next to her face? It can happen to your daughter… Read more »

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re: life of leisure. My (first) wife’s stated reason for majoring in English was so “I’ll get paid for reading good books! Bwa-ha-ha!”

One of my good (male) buddies is a professsor of leisure studies and avid outdoorsman. He literally publishes research articles on what the fish were bitin’ last week.

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It’s literally impossible to protect women’s “right” to choose to sex up triumphant jerks and to prevent said triumphants jerks from being jerks and being triumphant.

kfg
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” . . . the best defense against the new California affirmative consent law is simply to tape all sexual encounters . . .” The law makes every encounter a he said/she said affair (as it were), with primacy given to what she said. Therefore, taping all sexual encounters is simply the first and most obvious defense. The next step is to be able to show where you were when, so you may have a defense against any woman making any specific claim against you. You’ll need a 24/7 GPS log for this. Back it up twenty ways from Sunday… Read more »

Luis García
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Jenny’s post is highly enlightening. I mean, look at her. She’s 30 and a former high profile model.

At that age she is capable of attracting plenty of high value men, but despite that, she is whining because she now lacks the ability to select only the best of the best, the top 1%.

Her life from 17 to 27 must have been so easy…

Max from Australia
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“Girls who, in my experience, are less impressive, less striving, less volatile, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less complex, less damaged, less opinionated, less powerful, less womanly. They are less, and, to a guy not ready for anything—like most of the guys I have dated in New York—less is more.” At 40 most guys in my line of work are billing 400 – 700 grand per year. Every 15 minute conversation that I have where I am subjected to “intimidating, questioning, pressing, opinionated,” costs me $70 to $100 Bucks…. I simply cannot and will not stand for… Read more »

Just Saying
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Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old

Ah… And here I thought I was just f**king them, instead I was being “validated”… That’s a woman’s logic for you – she can’t face the fact that men have sex with young women because we WANT to have sex with ATTRACTIVE, YOUNG women… And 30 year olds are on the downward slide…

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h.s. nails it about architecs, just ask George Constanza!

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Cornelius, from my experience, you have it about right. I was a stammering introverted dude in my teens and early twenties (to much dope smoking if you must know), unless I was drunk. Still was able to get my notch count close to 30 before getting hitched. Turns out the girls thought I was real cute. Out of that bunch, I think I opened/approached about 10 of them, the rest just used me for my looks. Funny how when looking back on it, I was into mostly pump and dump. Just wanted to get laid, and smoke some more grass.… Read more »

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BV – the fight club rule is for a different culture, that us older chaps grew up in. Now a days, just look at Face Book, it is all about putting out there how special we are, male or female. Sickening really.

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@ Hobbes

Send me a message at gt90345@yahoo.com if you want.

Which made me think that while it’s cool that men can talk about this stuff because of the Internet, it would be ideal to get to know people in person who’re on the same page. The personal disconnect of the Internet is kind of disorienting to say the least. Although that’s a topic for another day.

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@softek
Got it, will do

LiveFearless
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Rollo has retweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/PlayDangerously/status/522866323483684864

Mike C at DangerAndPlay is the definition of Man of Greatness, and he’s demonstrated this again today. He’s setting precedents that will change the course of global events.

I’m thankful we’re friends.

EVERY man should supplement his reading here with Mike’s podcast, youtube channel, blog and forthcoming book. It’s all brought drastic change to my life. Some of it has helped my doctor to literally save my life in 2014.

LiveFearless
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The real voice of 7th Heaven Actor Stephen Collins, in 2006… unmistakably him:

h.s.
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“Is there any actual biological harm that results from not having sex?”

There probably isn’t, but men, unlike women, need sex not just for physical reasons. Men need sex for psychological reasons – it feeds their ego, for a man having sex means that everything is ok with him. It’s not that way for women.

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Rollo, the statement : “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger women, statistics are not on your side” means pretty much : “For all those guys that want to MARRY younger VERY ATTRACTIVE women with count =< , statistics are not on your side" There are heaps of average looking or even slightly below average looking women with low N counts, but no self respecting man wants these dregs, do they ? For every below average woman who believes she deserves a hot guy, there are as many below average man who believes he deserves a hot girl.… Read more »

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rollo what are your thoughts on this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2568763/Kate-Rothschild-heiress-rap-star-lover-photo-thats-alarmed-friends.html

On Monday, October 13, 2014, WordPress.com wrote: > Rollo Tomassi posted: ” About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was rig” >

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re: Rothschild. Two words: Tryn2B Bad. That, and drugs. All of the money JE made in his life came from dealing.

New Yorker
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Rothschild story is so typical and logical. Nice girl gets married, represses her feral nature to consolidate on security, and then, once comfortable, her feral side comes out. The husband does not know what hit him, because he never took that side of her seriously….and it likely would have stayed dormant had she not been so sure of the love and affection of her “best friend”. The new guy gives her the masculinity she craves and she is willing to do whatever is necessary to fit into his world. Note that he is not responsible for raising the kids, which… Read more »

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Where were you when I got married? I got married years before the ‘sphere came into existence, but in retrospect made every mistake in the book: marrying a former carousel rider just when her SMV was waning while mine was taking off; extreme White Knighting; the works! It’s been as dreary a marriage as you would imagine. It’s too late for me but hopefully this site and others like it will help young men avoid my mistakes.

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Nearly every female out there is addicted to male attention. And boy, do they compete for it when the resource is scarce. As a young man in college I see more women in the space of 5 seconds than most men who’ve ever lived, saw, during their entire lives. I got Canadians, Mexicans, Italians, Spaniards, South Africans and so on, trying to extract attention from the handful of men like diamonds are going out of style. Thing is, the few men who are in college, quite a few of them are homosexuals, so they’re left with even less men to… Read more »

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Oh, and by the way, the majority of the women you see younger than 35 don’t have a boyfriend. The few women I’ve met so far with boyfriends are very average-looking women. The women with the lowest self-esteem? They happen to be the most beautiful. How to get one of these? Practice personal hygiene, don’t grow a neckbeard(I’m looking at you Kentucky dudes) lose the extra weight and…. talk to women? Most women with good-looks don’t receive male attention in person. Yes, guys will look and stare like the girl is some Roman General transported throughout time to the 21th… Read more »

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The Rothschild heiress story is a bit more complex. They married early, are of similar super-wealthy families, they had 3 children together, her ex lives close by and sees the children often. Her ex-husband also is together with a former underwear-model (age 26), so it is not really as if he lost so much. The Rothschild girl by the way is no longer “dating” the rapper as he is supposed to be seeing a young model now. Elite families always had more leeway in their marriages – the goal was the bonding of wealth and the procreation of suitable progeny.… Read more »

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And boys, she has the whitest skin, the bluest eyes, the blondest hair, and damn is she thin. Approach. Talk to women. Forget the nonsense about game. Women want to shag, men have been doing it for thousands of years, no need to complicate it with ”SEXUAL MARKET VALUE,” HYPERGAMY” ”TOP 20% MALES IN LOOKS” and such other retarded beliefs.

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”Nowadays there are not nearly enough social or religious repercussions for women seeking a divorce and finding the Alpha Fucks in her life. The Rothschild heiress obviously desired to fill that void. The problem with such a strategy of course is that extreme wealth & social status does not interest men as much as women in their search for a partner. A super-wealthy attractive Beta can easily get the most beautiful woman truly interested in him. A woman doing the same will have way more problem finding a highly attractive Alpha who is enamored by her wealth and status.” Man,… Read more »

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”“Is there any actual biological harm that results from not having sex?” There probably isn’t, but men, unlike women, need sex not just for physical reasons. Men need sex for psychological reasons – it feeds their ego, for a man having sex means that everything is ok with him. It’s not that way for women.” Nope. Plenty of historical men have gone without pussy. They most likely masturbated their hands raw, but they didn’t die from lack of pussy and they had the free time and the money to do something productive with their lives. Even when pussy is for… Read more »

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”It’s literally impossible to protect women’s “right” to choose to sex up triumphant jerks and to prevent said triumphants jerks from being jerks and being triumphant.” jerks? Jerks are what average-looking(read: obese/bald/ugly/old) call to a guy when he’s sexually successful with women. I’ve met men who were the nicest bunch of people to be around. They had girlfriends and ONS. Good-looks. Talking to women like they are human beings. Not looking like the monster of the lock ness, not being terribly old(say, 40 year old men hitting on 20 year old women.. Sure, at least its funny to watch) and… Read more »

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re: jerks?

Jerks is what we TrueMen™ call dudes who intentionally finds women specifically to pickup with his “glib posturing with his toy camera” in order to, according to himself, measure himself by how much he can get away with ruining her socio-sexually by publicizing it.

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re: Rothschild Heiress

While Jay’s status as a “bad boy” rapper sealed the deal, it didn’t hurt that he also had a masculine look, which her husband didn’t. Just look at pictures of them together and the guy looks like a complete herb. Physically, women don’t want a man who closely resembles them or one that looks like a complete beta.

In other words, sexual dimorphism rules the day. Just look at this feral response from a girl to some athlete:

comment image
(h/t heartiste’s “goodbyeamerica” website)

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Men, Here is an apropos chance to influence the mainstream: Wireless Design Magazine online posted this article here: http://www.wirelessdesignmag.com/news/2014/10/facebook-apple-pay-egg-freezing-sperm-donors?et_cid=4210120&et_rid=263620244&type=cta Some excerpts: “New York (AP) — Free lunches, dry cleaning, massages — frozen eggs? Silicon Valley’s biggest companies have long offered cushy perks to attract top talent and keep workers happy logging scores of hours on the job. But beyond day-to-day luxuries, Facebook and Apple will now give up to $20,000 in benefits to help employees pay for infertility treatments, sperm donors and even to freeze their eggs. The move comes amid stiff competition for skilled engineers, and as many of… Read more »

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@Feral, you should realize by now you are incorrect out of simple ignorance and racism. Goldsmith has bigger physical masculinities than Electronica in every single dimension.

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Why do women, and greenpillers, feel the need to defend women’s choices in men?

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”It’s only women that have a vested interest in discouraging “dishonestsignalz” guys from trying. Only women. Any males who do so are so blue they’re green (anti-red) pillers wholly subservient to the FI.’ You are pretty adamant in telling what women want, have, or how women are like. You sure you are not having a gender crisis? Keeping aside the childish references to a science movie made for kids, do you even talk to women? I’m not referring to ”bar sluts.” Everyday women. Women you see inside a bookstore, getting their groceries, picking up their kids, chilling on a park?… Read more »

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”Why do women, and greenpillers, feel the need to defend women’s choices in men?”

I don’t know. Why do you insist in your persistence that you know everything about women? Are a purple piller or a zeta male with veins of omega and a bit of that venus gas after you eat your lunch? What I mean is, are you AlfaAlfa or BetaBeta Mr. biologist/geneticist/dude who studies human sexual behavior, or are you I don’t know, messed up in the head like you seem to be?

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”While Jay’s status as a “bad boy” rapper sealed the deal, it didn’t hurt that he also had a masculine look, which her husband didn’t. Just look at pictures of them together and the guy looks like a complete herb. Physically, women don’t want a man who closely resembles them or one that looks like a complete beta. In other words, sexual dimorphism rules the day. Just look at this feral response from a girl to some athlete:” What? Do you know what’s sexual dimorphism? I am friends with 20 guys from Denmark. The shortest is 6’6”. Their girls are… Read more »

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”Jerks is what we TrueMen™ call dudes who intentionally finds women specifically to pickup with his “glib posturing with his toy camera” in order to, according to himself, measure himself by how much he can get away with ruining her socio-sexually by publicizing it.” True men? Last I heard doctors, engineers, teachers, soldiers and so on don’t waste their time ”picking” women up or being all jealous because: A) Fit men are desired by women. B) Some guys like to spend their time trying to pick up, or picking up women. What do I know anyway? Only that Bill Gates… Read more »

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@Phillip,

I got Canadians, Mexicans, Italians, Spaniards, South Africans and so on, trying to extract attention from the handful of men like diamonds are going out of style. Thing is, the few men who are in college …

As an aside, do you in fact see fewer men going to college these days?

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shorter phillip, distilled form 893 consecutive page-size comments.
” Good-looks. Talking to women like they are human beings. Not looking like the monster of the lock ness, not being terribly old(say, 40 year old men hitting on 20 year old women.. Sure, at least its funny to watch) and not being obese, and you’re in with the majority of women.

I know, terrible that women are attracted to men who are healthy, have a sense of humor, or have good-looks.”

o god, Professor Headwig is back
Aussehen über alles.

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“from”

jacklabear
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My comment at Wireless Design passed moderation, was up for an hour or two, and then was removed.
Did anyone else chime in there, or do we all prefer staying in echo chambers?

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” . . . do we all prefer staying in echo chambers?”

No, I just prefer Rollo’s posting policy.

Yea, though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I shall fear no evil,
for I have passed through the valley of unmoderated alt. groups and was the baddest motherfucker in the valley.

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Hey Rollo, You know who I am One thing I continuously write on sosuave is that a woman’s perfect age range for the picking is age 23-27. Anything younger, and she’s still in her immature party phase. Anything older, and she’s hearing the ticking of her biological clock getting louder. Your charts absolutely validate a woman’s prime years, and with my gf being 24 and myself being 36, I’m happily taking full advantage of it. Any woman who finds herself single after age 27 is over-ripe-going-mouldy fruit. She becomes more and more jaded toward men, and more and more desperate… Read more »

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@ kfg

I understand where you’re coming from.

I also believe that there is value in trying to spread Rollo’s wisdom to men in the general culture.

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I’m going to go on a tl;dr here, but I’m writing this with the intent of raising a point of discussion that I think is highly relevant. Mechanoreceptors in the skin distinguish between intrapersonal and interpersonal touch. What’s the ultimate difference between masturbation and sex? How to get laid, how to manage a relationship by being aware of hypergamy, how the FI tries to suppress and repress male sexuality and the expression of it — all these things are relevant. But they don’t offer anything as to understanding the actual value of sex. Babies will die without touch. But adults?… Read more »

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BPD: Borderline Personality Disorder was addressed when Rollo was interviewed by Christian McQueen. Because of the recurring BPD theme on RM, I chose to accept an invite to hang out with Naomi McDougall Jones (lead actor “Lana”) Writer/Producer of the new BPD-themed feature film “Imagine I’m Beautiful” If you’ve ever experienced part of your life in a relationship with someone with BPD, “Imagine I’m Beautiful” will remind you that you’re not the only one affected by someone with BPD. There is never a mention of BPD in the movie. The lead character, Lana, demonstrates it as she ‘becomes’ each of… Read more »

kfg
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@Jacklabear

“I also believe that there is value in trying to spread Rollo’s wisdom to men in the general culture.”

Not the slightest disagreement from my corner.

“If you’ve ever experienced part of your life in a relationship with someone with BPD . . . ”

Married one. Chewed up all my T-shirts. It was decades ago, so I’m better now (twitch, twitch).

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Softek, “If people take what I’m saying the wrong way or criticize me or make fun of me or completely misunderstand what I’m trying to say, I see it as the same thing as getting rejected by girls — I’m doing the best I can, I’ll just forgive myself for making any mistakes, and try to do better the next time.” All that is possible is to continue from where you are and do your best to move forward. Anyone who makes fun of an honest seeker like you is the one with the bigger problems. Best wishes. . Have… Read more »

D-Man
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“She’s a cute girl, maybe even the ‘type’ you’d want to get into an LTR with at first meeting (provided you were ignorant of what she’s capable of). I don’t think it’s jealousy that makes guys want to kill Goldmund – it’s a want to protect “that kind of girl”, the jewel in the rough, from the predations of a guy like Goldmund.” Some kind of in-group protection instinct might be at work. In Saving the Best you brought up the idea of “pre-cuckolding”, and I think that applies here. The blue pill conditioned mind recoils, horrified by how easily… Read more »

Glengarry
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Haven’t seen the Goldmund video, but I no longer care very much when these things happen. Plenty of worse things in the same vein are perpetuated by women every day with the enthusiastic help of government. Fake rape claims are becoming cliché but still ruin careers and lives, up to and including actual murder of the innocent guy by beta relatives of the girl. When those bitches are routinely getting thrown in jail for their lies, let’s take a look at Goldmund. But not before.

BuenaVista
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Well, Glengarry, if it pleases you to occupy the same moral plane as the false rape accusers, you are absolutely correct in your analysis. You are also absolutely correct if you think there will be no blowback (further harming men) from such gratuitous personal destruction. I’d say your satisfaction in the trophy-mounting that Goldmund practices is entirely appropriate, if both prior premises strike you as correct.

LiveFearless
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@D-man “It’s there in the reaction of a guy walking in on his wife cheating on him This situation is played out in a scene in the BPD-themed movie I mentioned in my last comment. I think the writer has been reading here because the movie perfectly demonstrates many concepts discussed here. Cool, artist faithful boyfriend becomes beta begging for sex from his girlfriend. And, when Rollo, Christian or anyone else mentions BPD… anyone that’s not been in a relationship with one wouldn’t know how to spot BPD in someone else. This movie depicts what Rollo has written here: http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/… Read more »

jf12
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@Softek re: smell. Very recent research confirms there are scent receptors actively functioning in human skin.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/14/science/smell-turns-up-in-unexpected-places.html?_r=0

jf12
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@D-Man re: “mind recoils, horrified by how easily the good girl is turned. Wants to be turned.”

Yes. I don’t want the serpent to succeed with Eve, and I don’t want to have to be the serpent to succeed with Eve.

re: “blush fades”

Embarrassed (-able) women are very attractive.

re: “digital taxidermy”

Marvelous phrase, will steal.

Confused
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“@Hobbes “I honestly don’t really care what age a woman is, I simply ask myself if I am attracted to her and want sex with her. If yes, then I do. But then again, I have always- even in my blue pill days- been a person who thumbed his nose at social conventions. But there are alot of guys who are completely brainwashed. I’ve met guys who swear they think going out with younger women to pedophilia- without exception, these are always the bluest pill, “nice guys” I’ve met” Thanks for your detailed response. It’s good that you do what… Read more »

Confused
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@BV

I’m sorry that you and your daughter have had to encounter that kind of ignorance when you’re out together. It’s crazy that people actually make comments like that.

“I’d suggest you reflect on other reasons, which the men do not wish to articulate to you.”

I’ve tried to but unfortunately, I’m not a mind reader and I can’t think of what else it might be. I don’t know why they wouldn’t want to articulate those reasons to me either, lol, it’s not like I’d go crazy on them or anything. They are entitled to think what they want after all.

Confused
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@jf “I’m more than twice your age, but for various reasons I tend to find women in their 20s and 40s more attractive than women in their 30s. I don’t know if it’s the psychological effects of the Wall or what, but when I was primarily dating women in their 30s, three decades ago, they were essentiall all nutso, in the clinical sense, totally confused about what they wanted and not amenable to direction, by me anyway.” Thanks for your response. You’re definitely entitled to your opinion and I can understand how past experiences might have made you come to… Read more »

Confused
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@Rollo Tomassi “Assuming you’re not trolling (and I don’t think you are at this point) your ‘confusion’ is rooted in the fact that you are what I call a ‘Late Term Virgin’: http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/09/the-adolescent-social-skill-set/ I don’t know what your reasonings are for n=0, never kissed, but at 31 this is a huge red flag you’re still clinging to an adolescent social skill set. To the Men you’re attracted to in their 40-50s, who’ve mature well beyond any self-defeating obligation to sort you out, this is a non-starter” Thank you very much for your response. I really like your work (even if… Read more »

BuenaVista
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Confused, the guys are just saying they don’t have the energy to teach you how to be an adult. A) you didn’t get that. B) It’s not their problem its yours. Good luck.

ADawg
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In my town and others, most of the club goers are 18-25/26 then people tend to stop.

I’m 21, but i’m worried where am i gonna go when i’m 37 for clubbing? surely i won’t look right hitting up these clubs when im older?

thanks

George
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You are correct and pedestalized sex can stifle maturation. However, you cannot fully comprehend without experience.

George
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@confused,

You are correct and pedestalized sex can stifle maturation. However, you cannot fully comprehend without experience.

Confused
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@BV ” the guys are just saying they don’t have the energy to teach you how to be an adult. A) you didn’t get that. B) It’s not their problem its yours. Good luck.” I’m not entirely what exactly about me (aside from the fact that I’ve never been sexually active) would make them think that I need to be “taught to be an adult.?” I’m college educated, I have a job, I pay my own bills; all the so-called “adult” responsibilities that I think I do a pretty good job taking care of, to the the point that I’ve… Read more »

Confused
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@BV ” the guys are just saying they don’t have the energy to teach you how to be an adult. A) you didn’t get that. B) It’s not their problem its yours. Good luck.” I’m not sure entirely what exactly about me (aside from the fact that I’ve never been sexually active) would make them think that I need to be “taught to be an adult.?” I’m college educated, I have a job, I pay my own bills; all the so-called “adult” responsibilities that I think I do a pretty good job taking care of- to the the point that… Read more »

Confused
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@George
“You are correct and pedestalized sex can stifle maturation. However, you cannot fully comprehend without experience.”

Thanks for your comment, I just wasn’t too clear what you meant by it. Could you please further elaborate?

George
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@confused

Sexual experience is not necessary for maturity in a “general” sense and If we are too obsessed with sex we can slow our maturity. There are some people (in my opinion) who experience it but never aquire a mature understanding of it because they are too obsessed with fantasies associated with it. However, we must experience sex to really understand and appreciate it.

Softek
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@ Confused I think maturity involves the capability of satisfying your sexual desires. This also involves knowing where you stand sexually and not getting into situations that are counter to satisfying your sexuality. I’ve been with two girls, and while I’m still a virgin I do know what it’s like to be kissed, and I also know what it’s like to be older and never kissed a girl in my life. I’ve gotten blowjobs and handjobs, and have made out with and fingered two girls. That’s the extent of my experience. But compared to having 0 experience I feel like… Read more »

Confused
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@Softek”I’m convinced for guys like us the biggest battle is within our minds. Changing our belief system by LETTING GO of self-limiting beliefs we have that are trying to keep us safe.” Thanks for your response. Though I should let you know, I’m female. You (and maybe some others) might be wondering why then am I posting on a Manosphere forum? The truth is, I don’t mean to impose as I understand this is intended as a male space, but I just find it very helpful to read and post where I can gain valuable and diverse male perspectives on… Read more »

Confused
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@George”Sexual experience is not necessary for maturity in a “general” sense and If we are too obsessed with sex we can slow our maturity. There are some people (in my opinion) who experience it but never aquire a mature understanding of it because they are too obsessed with fantasies associated with it. However, we must experience sex to really understand and appreciate it.”

Thanks so much for the more detailed explanation. I really appreciate it.

jf12
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@Confused re: “I personally don’t know of any” women who are confused and resist being directed by men, such as me. Try looking in the mirror, and get back to me. Heh, heh. This is the part, as we’re sitting at the Waffle House counter, where you insisted on meeting me, again, to “Just, you know, talk. And stuff.”, at almost midnight, on non-adjacent stools (a hard-and-fast rule I slowly-and-softly break hardly ever for young women I agree to “just talk. And stuff” with) that you let a tear slip from the eye nearest me, and smirk, in your mannish… Read more »

Confused
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@jf “Try looking in the mirror, and get back to me. Heh, heh.” I looked. But still saw no sign of the 30 something woman matching your description, sorry. Heh.heh “This is the part, as we’re sitting at the Waffle House counter, where you insisted on meeting me, again, to “Just, you know, talk. And stuff.”, at almost midnight, on non-adjacent stools (a hard-and-fast rule I slowly-and-softly break hardly ever for young women I agree to “just talk.” I recall no such meeting at a “Waffle House counter at almost midnight, on non-adjacent stools” Why would we even need to… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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Is the thread full up then? Explains the recent plague of double posting, as hitting [send] produces no observable result.

Tam the Bam
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Except it just did [confused]

Tam the Bam
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[Roy Rogers warning: I am not being gratuitously offensive here, merely playing it absolutely straight as I see it, given the minimal amount of information grudgingly conceded, to save going all round the houses. Is that clear? Good. Are you sitting comfortably? Then we’ll begin ..] Looks like a rare female case of Asperger’s or whatever fancy name the trickcyclists have for it now. Explains the unsex, lasting into middle age. Excessive literalism, check; absolute humorlessness, check; “masculine energy”, check (WTF is that anyhow? Like cold fusion or something?); “too independent”, in my experience, is a mealy-mouthed circumlocution by nervous… Read more »

kfg
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Although I presented only the general case, the specific case, that she is a flaming Aspie/BPD, did, in fact, occur to me.

anonG
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@Confused: You seem to be engaged in a “performative” here, after many comments and replies. Rollo told you, and BV (succinctly) told you roughly the same. I’ll try, almost certainly to no avail. The themes are consistent. Sex itself, of course, does make one an adult. What others have tried to explain is that sex (including its aftermath) can trigger a range of feelings, sensations, and thoughts that would otherwise be nearly impossible to access and predict–and that this is central, whatever happens, to maturing into a full adult. You’re now into your 30s, without having undergone this process nor,… Read more »

Confused
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@Tam the Bam “Explains the unsex, lasting into middle age. Excessive literalism, check; absolute humorlessness, check; “masculine energy”, check (WTF is that anyhow? Like cold fusion or something?); “too independent”, in my experience, is a mealy-mouthed circumlocution by nervous types for “utterly self-absorbed, and intolerable in a confined space”. Alright, somehow I think my last post to jf12 is what may have triggered this response. For the record, it was meant as a tongue in cheek (NOT literal) response to jf and I was simply mirroring what he wrote to me. If I was found to be “absolute humorous” (not… Read more »

Confused
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“Although I presented only the general case, the specific case, that she is a flaming Aspie/BPD, did, in fact, occur to me.”

I’ve been called a lot of things but never “a flaming Aspie/BPD” I guess there’s a first time for everything, but for just the record, I have no such conditions.

Confused
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@anonG “You seem to be engaged in a “performative” here, after many comments and replies.” I don’t mean to be engaged in a performative and I’m honestly not trying to be disruptive or get attention. The reason for some of my recent comments and replies was because I had previously received some responses to some of my posts a few days ago and only yesterday was did I had a chance to reply to all of them. Hence my consecutive comments on the thread. “Rollo told you, and BV (succinctly) told you roughly the same. I’ll try, almost certainly to… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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“I can assure you that I’m NOT an Aspie, BDP (as someone else stated) or any of the other descriptions that you have for me.”
Fair enough. Then it’ll just remain a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
I must have had the humor go whooshing over my head.
Far too indescribable, complicated and difficult.
Next.

Softek
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@ Confused Who are you trying to convince that you’re doing okay? The effects on maturity and development, etc., are all irrelevant. I face the same problem of over-analyzing things. I think it’s a defense mechanism. IMO you would not have any interest in reading or thinking about sex unless you wanted to have it. I think the best course of action for you, as well as for me, and any other ‘late term virgins,’ is to just drop the beating around the bush and get down to the business of how to get sex. With the one girl I… Read more »

BuenaVista
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Our maiden, an expert on that which she abjures: “The simple fact that I lack “experience” in one area, (which isn’t by the way rocket science and can be learned like any thing else) that would cause them to think that?” A) you literally don’t know what you’re talking about. B) you think, apparently, that men exist to teach you things and that such a pedagogical experience is sexually meaningful for a man. C) your self-centered nature, evidently, prevents you from observing that men enjoy being loved, as much as they enjoy loving women. You have nothing to offer most… Read more »

LiveFearless
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@Softek writes: I don’t believe in BPD Rollo’s post on Borderline Personality Disorder is the most clear work ever written on the important topic. It will save countless lives. I’ve linked to it in other comments on this page. The movie “Imagine I’m Beautiful” premieres tonight with the writer, director and lead actor present afterward for a question/answer panel. It accurately depicts BPD (as Rollo described in his post) and its effects on each character. If you’re near Los Angeles today it premieres TODAY (10/19) at 5:20 p.m. at Arena Cinema Hollywood. Here’s the trailer. Consider what’s been written in… Read more »

jf12
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Were I a much younger man, and unmarried, I wouldn’t (and didn’t) hesitate to express some interest in an attractivish N=0 31 yr old woman, to see where it might go. And I know I and all the other guys whose earlier life experiences, albeit not preferences, have been that “sex is something that men do for and to women” within marriage, are commonplace. A girl can’t walk around a block without tripping over several of us. I wouldn’t have been at all put off by a woman expressing some interest in me (i.e. her doing the work) even in… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“I’ve been called a lot of things but never “a flaming Aspie/BPD” I guess there’s a first time for everything . . .” In face to face encounters men will think it, and then make their excuses on their way out the door. It is simple self preservation. Here they will talk frankly. ” . . . but for just the record, I have no such conditions. I can assure you that I’m NOT an Aspie, BDP . . .” If you do have an empathic personalitly disorder, your assurances are worthless. If you do not, others do, and so… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Ah BV, think of the lovers from the 17th century et. al., Cyrano, Romeo, Don, etc.

Does not a man like this exist anymore to swoop Confused away to a land of happiness?

eon
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eon
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@ BuenaVista, October 18th, 2014 at 11:52 am “Well, Glengarry, if it pleases you to occupy the same moral plane as the false rape accusers, you are absolutely correct in your analysis. You are also absolutely correct if you think there will be no blowback (further harming men) from such gratuitous personal destruction. I’d say your satisfaction in the trophy-mounting that Goldmund practices is entirely appropriate, if both prior premises strike you as correct.” . I am going to have to side with BuenaVista on this. It is proper to generalize to probabilities, but not to specifics. It is true… Read more »

Softek
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@ Livefearless My friend dated a girl for 3 years who had ‘BPD,’ and was severely affected by that experience, I (used to) fit the description for it from the DSM perfectly, I’ve had over 13 years firsthand experience as a patient in both inpatient, institutionalized therapy and outpatient therapy, been on all kinds of medications, etc. I was abused, neglected, bullied and also on one occasion molested growing up, have scars all over my body from years of self mutilation, history of dissociative/psychotic episodes and threatening to kill myself as well as other people, and I have understand inside… Read more »

Glengarry
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BuenaVista, you surprise me. I never figured you for a scold and I don’t buy your shaming. But please, I wouldn’t want you to exert yourself too far either; by all means call for the head of some dumb blogger with a video that will be taken down by the cops or a lawyer on demand. Society will, I’m sure, thank you. Well, Glengarry, if it pleases you to occupy the same moral plane as the false rape accusers, you are absolutely correct in your analysis. You are also absolutely correct if you think there will be no blowback (further… Read more »

LiveFearless
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Softek writes: My concern with things like the BPD movie is that they can sensationalize it Funny you mentioned that, Naomi McDougall Jones, writer and lead actor of the film, addressed that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jptL2p1xwjM “this man stood up (in the audience) and he said ‘I’m the father of somebody with borderline personality disorder, and I’ve never seen this portrayed FAIRLY on screen.’ He said it’s always villainized or SENSATIONALIZED, and he said ‘That is my daughter, and I feel less alone now.'” ~Naomi McDougall Jones As I’ve written, I’ve no involvement with this film, but I am impressed that that the… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“But a lot of people who don’t have ‘BPD’ or the associated symptoms (i.e. internal references) will just write them off as crazy psychos that need to be avoided. ” I was not put here to heal you, nor was I put here to allow you to destroy my life. In another time and culture I might well feel obligated to kill you, not out of any sence of malice, but strictly to protect myself. And this is one of the issues you will have to confront in your own process of self-healing. You are, perfectly legitimately, to be avoided… Read more »

anonG
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@Confused “Sorry, I really don’t mean to be argumentative, these have just been my real life observations.If I could at least find some sources based on actual research then I may reconsider my stance.” No need to apologize to me. You came here ostensibly seeking guidance. You’re welcome to “reconsider” whatever, whenever, whyever you please. “However, I do know people who were virgins when they married in their 30s and some who hadn’t even kissed anyone at that point…. A lot of these communities have good, solid, happy marriages, so I just find hard to believe that lack of sexual… Read more »

BuenaVista
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Glengarry, I regret your characterization of me as a scold. I do think, as another as noted, that there are principles at risk here, and that we ignore them at risk of being corrupt, or simply impractical (blowback potential). My faux agreement is just to indicate that I have no authority to scold anyone, but I retain my deep skepticism about the value that the posturing blogger with the toy camera (does he wear a fedora?) is bringing, and that the opposite side of this issue troubles me with its implications. I don’t really see how practicing pickup in environments… Read more »

BuenaVista
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JF12: “I wouldn’t have been at all put off by a woman expressing some interest in me (i.e. her doing the work) even in the 1960s. And now here we are five decades after the sexual revolution, which the women won of course, and an attractive youngish women is claiming that she is approaching men, especially older men, expressing interest in the men, and the men think she’s dorky or something, and recoil. … I’m not buying it.” I buy it because the men she’s been propositioning have already been to hell and back (loveless marriages, marital celibacy, state-sponsored punishment… Read more »

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