About three weeks ago I was made aware of Jenny Bahn’s article, 30 is the New 50 which I thought was timely as it went beyond the xojane pablum where it first appeared to wider readership being picked up by Time. It was timely (heh) because it was right around the same week I published Alpha Agents of Righteous Karma and, coming from a fairly attractive woman, it highlighted many of the points I’d made in that post.
Commenter myreality asked me:
To what extent, if at all, do you think that validation hunting is part of male preference for large age differences when a man is in his late 30’s and beyond? It is definitely not 0%…
I think this is presuming a truth that isn’t.
The idea that men “seek validation” for their earned status or to ‘right’ past wrongs to their egos while they were working their way to that status is a social convention. The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.
When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.
Have a look at my Sexual Market Value Graph. (click to enlarge)
Although I’ve gone into explaining the loose metrics I’ve based this graph on several occasions, I’ve added some arrows here to illustrate a point that often gets missed or simply blown over because the truths it represents aren’t very flattering. Women would rather men not be aware of their own SMV potential prior to women being able to consolidate upon her sexual strategy.
Popular culture never presumes women are ‘validation hunting’ when they’re enjoying their peak SMV potential at 23 and (by order of degree) indulging that opportunity with men while at their peak. Women are acculturated to feel “empowered” by their sexuality, and really, no guy who wants to bang a hot 23 year old woman is ever going to rebuke her for it, much less develop social conventions to limit their odds of doing so.
However, men enjoying peak SMV in their mid to late 30’s are (by default) presumed to be vindicating themselves and validating their “fragile egos” by dating the younger (and in Jenny Bahn’s case an SMV peaked 23 year old no less) women they naturally find more attractive.
If there is any ‘validation’ for SMV peaked men it’s less about the sense of deserving a hot piece of ass or vindication for the women of his peer age who found him sexually invisible until he hit his peak, and more about validation in a new self-awareness that he finally is in a position of choosing and qualifying women for his intimacy rather than being filtered for his own acceptability for so long.
It’s not about turnabout or fair play now that the sexual selection shoe is on the other foot, but simple deductive pragmatism for a man who is aware of his own SMV and, assuming he’s hasn’t hamstrung his ability to maneuver, wants to exercise that value at (presumedly) the top of his game.
It’s not (usually) that he’s made a conscious effort to make himself an Alpha Agent of Righteous Karma, but that he steps into that role by default when the SMV balance shifts to his favor, and he naturally prefers sexual access to the best physical, and most sexually available woman his newly recognized SMV will afford him. That may not be a 23 year old coed, but it might be with a necessitous 29 year old looking for a solution to her long term investment.
About Those Arrows
One very common (or deliberate) misunderstanding about this chart is the presumption that like should necessarily attract like. A lot of critics claim indignation over the idea that I was suggesting a 23 year old woman should be attracted to a 36-38 year old SMV peaked man. I’ve never proposed this scenario in any post I’ve ever written about SMV, but it’s important to understand the prioritizations of attraction women make during the later phases of their maturation.
Critics who like to presume that this attraction is only based on looks, prowess and virility often don’t take this attraction prioritization into account. Obviously a more youthful man is in better physical shape when he’s younger, and if all we were considering was short term mating prospects and the Alpha Fuck side of feminine hypergamy this graph would look much different. However, once a woman has reached 30 (thank you Ms. Bahn) those attraction (not arousal) priorities look much different.
The primary reason I placed men’s peak SMV in his mid to late thirties is because, if he’s made the most of his potential, this is when he is most likely to have established himself in his status, affluence and achievements while (if he’s maintained himself) still retaining the looks of a more mature man.
It’s exactly women’s sexual prioritization at their most necessitous which puts men at the top of their SMV game. As I’ve detailed in many prior posts, hypergamy wants optimization (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks). Women’s pluralistic sexual strategy is optimized when a woman can consolidate a monogamous commitment from a man who can deliver a better genetic benefit and a better personal (providership) investment than her own SMV should realistically be able to warrant her.
In general, at no other point in a man’s life does he possess the a better potential to optimize women’s innate hypergamy.
If you follow the pink arrow, from about women’s 30th year that established SMV peaked man has the best potential to satisfy both aspects of the dualistic nature of hypergamy. It’s important to consider that when a woman reaches her 30s her sexual prioritization is affected by her own capacity to attract and hold male attention. What happens is a sort of subconscious establishing operation – as her capacity to attract becomes diminished, and as the next generation of SMV peaked women comes into their own, the urgency to cash out of the sexual market place increases.
So it’s not that the expectation should be one of 23 year old women wanting to get after it with 38 year old men (though this is exactly the scenario in Jenny Bahn’s story), but rather that 38 year old men increase exponentially in value to 30 year old women at a time when what he possess is what she needs the most.
Back in May a data set was released on Twitter from OKCupid founder Christian Rudder is his book Dataclysm: Who We Are (When We Think No One’s Looking). It’s a fascinating read actually and reinforces much of what I speculate about with regard to my own SMV graph.
It’s important to remember that this data is based primarily on looks, but it illustrates the point of my adding the blue arrow to the graph. Men’s arousal and attraction triggers are virtually static. While men’s attraction value variates for women, it is a locked value for women.
While in her SMV peak – as we can see averaged her to around 22 – women enjoy the benefit of having the most sexual selectivity of their lives. However, the power of this selectivity declines as she ages and is further stressed by sexual competition as she does. And while men compete for sexual access to women, the sexual market value of the woman being competed for is still rooted in her capacity to attract attention and arouse men.
When in her SMV peak years, women’s preferences and sexual strategy supersede those of the men who would compete for her, however as she moves towards maturity, and as men ascend to their own SMV peak, a man’s preferences gradually take precedence over women’s.
Jenny Bahn, a reasonably attractive (former model) woman provides us with an excellent example of this transition.
Alex is 38. I’m 30. Technically, there are no “people our age.” But I’m starting to feel that a 30-year-old woman might as well be a 40-year-old man, though infinitely less desirable, culturally speaking.
At 40, a man is well into hitting his stride, something the guy I’m arguing with is all too aware of, as evidenced when he professes on multiple occasions, “I’m an amazing guy.” “We’re killing it. KILLING IT,” he tells me, while explaining that he’s been caught up in his rapidly expanding architecture firm.
[…]A 30-year-old woman is an undertaking, and it’s the real reason Alex has been putting me on the back burner for the past two months, telling me that I’m amazing and that he’s interested and then disappearing to hang out with a 23-year-old instead. Age ain’t nothing but a number, until it’s a number someone else doesn’t want to deal with.
As I mentioned in The Threat:
Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.
Jenny, like most women in their Epiphany Phase, is now coming to terms with the transition of sexual selection power from what she once no doubt enjoyed to a man who’s made the most of his maturity and potential she wants to consolidate on in long term monogamy.
Jenny has a rare honesty and insight to recognize this, but naturally the ‘validation’ social convention is there to assuage her predicament. Even in her self-acceptance of her situation Alex is colored with an uncooperative attitude. His perspective is ‘incorrect’ in a fem-centric social order. If he were really ‘mature’ he would be dating and marrying Jenny (a victim of her own past decisions) instead of seeking ‘validation’ with a 23 year old hottie.
The presumption of Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old makes men his age, in general, more shallow or manipulative, or uncooperative with the mandates of a feminine-primary social order. A mature, established man shouldn’t want to date women in their 20s, he should cooperate with the Feminine Imperative and validate Jenny’s sexual strategy by becoming monogamous with her.
What Alex is doing isn’t seeking validation, it’s simple SMP pragmatism – the power of sexual selectivity (though by no means unilateral) has switched in degree to his favor. Alex is enjoying his peak SMV and a large portion of that value comes from his desirability from women like Jenny; women who delayed capitalizing on their SMV peak and now, at 30, find themselves on the necessitous side of that sexual selectivity.
Don’t invest in the bitch.
Invest in yourself.
“Girls who, in my experience, are less impressive, less striving, less volatile, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less complex, less damaged, less opinionated, less powerful, less womanly.”
They’re MORE womanly, bitch.
Or, to be considerably more succinct:
What George said.
Mmmm … I loves me some volatile womminz
@ Other than Eon – Read the article and make your own mind up. It is more complicated than the title would seem but it’s still worth knowing, isn’t it? And all I did was laugh about it, not assert it as a scientific certainty. Really though, I did that just for Eon, as sending him into a tizzy is so easy it’s just hard to resist. That was a bit troll-like of me. But you should know that Eon is merely demonstrating motivated reasoning, not sharing some blistering truth he possesses. There is also something possibly pathological about his… Read more »
Is she real?
There’s been times when I’ve met and have been attracted to men in their mid 40’s-50’s and some of them have admitted a mutual attraction to me as well. Men in these age ranges are 15-25 years older than me and while I didn’t have an issue with the age gap, they did, and have stated that’s the reason they don’t ask me out in spite of their attraction. I’m 31, but am still slim, attractive, with an n=0 (including no kissing) and I’m often mistaken to be in my early to mid 20’s, (Yeah, I know, what some of… Read more »
” . . . why I am, at 31, being told by men in this age range that I’m “too young” for them?”
Because you are too young for the women they have to deal with. Feminine Imperative blowback. Your sisters have thrown you under the bus.
Disclaimer of Bias: I am more than 25 years older than you. You are too old for me.
“Because you are too young for the women they have to deal with. Feminine Imperative blowback. Your sisters have thrown you under the bus.”
This may be true if they were the type who let others dictate their dating life, but they’re not. On a side note, some of them later did marry and it was to women who were older than I.
“Disclaimer of Bias: I am more than 25 years older than you. You are too old for me.”
LOL, Woe is me:)
“Men after 50 still NEED sex.” Do men (or women) at any age NEED sex? What happens to the brain? Is there really anything significant that happens on a real physiological level that would warrant sex as an actual *need*? Is there any actual biological harm that results from not having sex? There is no evidence that not having sex, in and of itself as an independent variable, causes any problems. Speculations and anecdotes and armchair philosophies and theories, sure. But no actual evidence. Outside of fruit flies deprived of sex tending to become alcoholics I really haven’t found anything… Read more »
” . . .some of them later did marry and it was to women who were older than I. ” Q.E.D.; I can point to the target, but I can’t make you hit it. Much of the dictating was done by the time they were 5. It was drilled in to “instinct” well before they were out of high school. By women. In order to ensure a supply of older men for middle aged widows and divorcees. “LOL, Woe is me:)” Yeah, I know, but the point is that you are stuck in No Woman’s Land, to old for a… Read more »
If nothing else, as a guy, by the time you reach age 40, you’ve generally learned a lot about women (behavior, wants/needs, shit tests, etc) and you know how to deal. You’re your own man, focus on your own self-improvement, have standards, and don’t put up with bad behavior from women.
Just having that frame, you’ll do alright.
Sex is absolutely a human need and it is good for us. There is no escaping it. We are “programmed” with this instinctual drive and it is powerful. Be honest, it is manifested compulsively and consistently in some way with each person unless the person is biologically deformed.
I think the mere existence of this blog and the manosphere in general proves that men need sex. You can split hairs if you want, but male prisoners even do each other when there is no alternative. Tell them that sex is just a want. LOL.
Only low libido people would say that sex is not a need, because, well, for them it isn’t – by definition.
BTW,
I’m happy to hear that some commenters find post-menopausal women to still be enthusiastic and inspired lovers. This can only be a good thing for all men as they age.
@Softek writes: If you really believe that something as subjective as sex is a need, you’re giving it an awful lot of power over you. This is a joke, right? If you really believe that something as subjective as drinking clean, non-toxic fluid is a need, you’re giving it a lot of power over you. If you really believe that something as subjective as eating at least a few times per week is a need, you’re giving it a lot of power over you. People tend to live longer when hydrated. The body needs food on a regular basis too… Read more »
@Softek
Sex is a misdemeanor “The more I miss the meaner I get”.
My father died of prostate cancer. His oncologist told me regular sex may have helped keep his prostate healthier slowing the onset of the disease.
Read this…
http://urology.jhu.edu/newsletter/prostate_cancer712.php
“Q.E.D.; I can point to the target, but I can’t make you hit it. Much of the dictating was done by the time they were 5. It was drilled in to “instinct” well before they were out of high school. By women. In order to ensure a supply of older men for middle aged widows and divorcees.” I’m sorry but this doesn’t make sense. You’re telling me that grown Men allow “old hens” to dictate who they date because by the time they were out of high school it was “drilled into “instinct?” Do you have actual sources? “but the… Read more »
I go to a pizzeria where there is this 18 yr old girl who practically drips every time I walk in- again, I am in my 40s. She doesn’t have daddy issues, her dad seems like a good man, and is still in the home.. we’re just attracted to each other. Yet I don’t move in. Why? Well, I have a few plates already, two of them mid 20s. But mosly it’s because even though I could care less about what society thinks, it can turn out to be a headache we sometimes just don’t want to put up with.… Read more »
@Confused re: “why I am, at 31, being told by men in this age range that I’m “too young” for them?” + “I often see men my age and even 20 years older dating and getting serious with young woman in their early 20’s.”
I agree there seems to be confusion. Rather than asking you to clarify, I’ll suggest maybe the older men you seem attracted to do not want to have children with you.
Hi Rollo,
I do not know if you have seen this article, so I am posting it here because it fits very well with your SMV curve:
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/books-and-culture/make-money-hollywood-dont-woman-34-91186/
The gist of the article is: “For male movie stars, earnings steadily rise until age 51, when things level off. For women, the peak comes 17 years earlier, and it’s followed by a sudden drop.”
A difference of 17 years: exactly what your graph describes, too.
PS
Thanks for this website. I have learned a great deal here. Keep up the great work!
“Well, I have a few plates already, two of them mid 20s. But mosly it’s because even though I could care less about what society thinks, it can turn out to be a headache we sometimes just don’t want to put up with. Like it or not, alot of people will make alot of problems once they see you with a much much younger woman.” Thanks for your comment. I guess I can understand how some people’s reaction to an older man/much younger woman couple could cause some grief, but if he genuinely liked the young woman, couldn’t there be… Read more »
@ jf12 “I agree there seems to be confusion. Rather than asking you to clarify, I’ll suggest maybe the older men you seem attracted to do not want to have children with you.” Thanks for your comment. I don’t think that I want to have children for various reasons and the older men I’ve met know this as well. However, if their reason for not pursuing anything with me is because they don’t want to have children with me, do you think it’s because men that age generally don’t want kids at all (or more of them if they’re widowed… Read more »
Glenn – “Until I see an experiment that uses a control like I mentioned in the comments on the last article, I find myself skeptical.”
Try this one. Guitar game. A bit hokey, but better results then K or R ever get.
http://www.guitarworld.com/two-new-studies-suggest-women-are-more-attracted-man-holding-guitar
@Confused- The fact is mid 20s, it no longer even is an issue- for me at least. And if you are 30 and men in their 40s are saying your too young- well thats just weird. I am mid 40s and that age isn’t an issue in the sense of “being too young” I suspect guys are telling you that for one of many other reasons. A woman in her 30s we assume is looking to “nail you down” and if that is not what a guy wants, he may just be avoiding the hassle. I also think it may… Read more »
” . . . you should tell women they are “too young” for you because it somehow raises their interest . . .”
Young girls don’t mind being thought of as young. They absolutely cannot stand being thought of as “immature,” and will move heaven and earth to prove the assessment wrong.
Some few of them even manage to mature at least a bit in the process.
@rollo or anyone else who knows for that matter.
How did hypergamy fare under communism where there were no social classes defined by income?
@Confused re: fertility. No, a man in his 40s isn’t going to think a 31 yr old women is substantially less fertile than when she was a few years younger. But nowadays what with contraception and all, the main way a woman gets pregnant is when she wants to. Hobbes put it this way “A woman in her 30s we assume is looking to “nail you down” and if that is not what a guy wants, he may just be avoiding the hassle.” I’m more than twice your age, but for various reasons I tend to find women in their… Read more »
@mickel, originally the male Bolshevik leaders went along with the women’s demands for free love and the abolishment of marriage. The young women left the farms and flocked to the cities to party down with Party leaders. But with the “failures” of contraception, despite upwards of 20 or 30 million abortions, the young women started getting pregnant with unwanted children, and the young men left behind on the farms ceased working. The 10 million orphans starving on the streets failed to motivate women, so by the late 1920 as Stalin was getting power, marriage was reinstituted and the women were… Read more »
“How did hypergamy fare under communism where there were no social classes defined by income?” Well my wild and unsupported guess would be 1) most women “marry” the State as their all-knowing, all-providing overlord. Become obsessed with “The Party” and worming their way into it as a way of approaching the godhood of the Apparatus and being noticed. 2) a lucky minority are sexeh enough to hitch a ride with the alpha thugs of the Security Services and their (collectively) unbridled power, usually up to and including arbitrary life or death, and access to special privileges and state resources, i.e.… Read more »
Confused, I think it’s highly unlikely you’re not connecting with the older men you reference because you’re “too young.” Because A) you’re not; B) the explanation (“you’re too young”) is just too disingenuous. I’d suggest you reflect on other reasons, which the men do not wish to articulate to you. Women are hell on wheels when they encounter a man in their age cohort who is dating someone 20-30 years younger. I ‘date’ my daughter in NYC, which is supposed to be sophisticated, and the middle aged women in the restaurants sneer, elbow, block, complain. (They think she’s a lover,… Read more »
“That was the night the woman to my left actually threw an elbow when I transited between our closely-placed tables. “
That’s another bit of grit in the oyster of old on-the-shelf women.
Relentlessly gratuitous misbehaviour on anything like licensed premises that would embarrass a football hooligan. They’re invariably sozzled, and they make for mean drunks. A lifetime of deference from all and sundry has taught them that they are forever protected from any kind of retaliation.
Hide the knives. Or don’t go to those places. Take her bowling.
re: Confused but not @Confused. I bet most men reading here suspect Confused is completely fabricating the part about her being healthy and attractive and never-been-kissed at 31. I have known many such women throughout my life, probably because I’m so heavily plugged in to both the hyperintellectual scientific and the fundamentalist evangelical Christian communities.
All were voluntarily celibate, mostly for religious reasons, partly because of their inability to discern good-enough men, partly because of lack of desire typically enunciated as “I don’t know if I want any children, or not.”
Tam, we go where we want, as I now enjoy the shaming efforts. Oddly, my daughter does too, and we joke about it.
Another dynamic that I’ve noticed a few times: when we go to a ‘hip’ place where the wait staff is 20’s-30’s, some of the waitresses linger and flirt with me. So then I am witnessing what we call preselection, as I presume they are saying to themselves (or just intuiting, more likely) “she’s got a sugar daddy I want one too”.
@BV re: preselection. First, unnerstan I’m not talking trash about your girl. Since I was so very clueless for so very long, I was/am often in the company of respectable women who were/are clearly out of my league. This squiring led/leads to a lot of interest by other women in the respectable *women*, such as “Ooh, I just love your shoes! Where did you get them? And where did you get a guy like that? I need me one too.” It was only after I let myself be seen in the company of disrespectable women that other women began initiating… Read more »
To add to the age difference data base. When I finally finished University and got started on my career after some detours, I was 28 years old. I started dating an old student of mine from a sports camp I had taught at, she was 18. She was the “good girl” we all mythologize around these parts. Smart, tall, slinky, great ass, wonderful friendly demeanor, agreeable, no baggage, n=1 count before me. She walked as if she was still learning to use her newly grown legs like a little fawn. My peer group of men simply could not believe my… Read more »
JF, no worries.
I have to say, recent experiences have rattled me a bit and disagree with your ‘respectable woman’ paragraph. I truly wonder if we’re at a point now with Rollo’s ‘open hypergamy’ idea where even ‘respectable women’ feel entitled, or at least interested in speculating on, some extracurricular sexy time. I suppose there are huge populations of ‘respectable women’ but they seem to be the ones who have traded out of sex for food.
I would document this with some recent anecdotes but I do too much of that.
@ LiveFearless Oh no, I’m not joking. I’m being very serious. **Before I forget** http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2009.01677.x/full We don’t need sex for individual survival. Not satisfying the biological drive to eat and drink will result in death. Not satisfying the biological drive to have sex — what exactly will happen? And can the variable of not having sex be isolated? I understand not wanting to split hairs over it, and how that can be used as a means to repress sexual desire/pursuing satisfaction. I’d be in complete agreement with you there, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m just curious about… Read more »
Signed up to Ashley Madison a while back, for research only!
🙂
The amount of married woman, who “just want someone to have fun with that is missing in my marriage” is amazing. Finger count, about 35-40 percent.
Open hypergamy is well on its way boys. et those condoms ready!
Softek, the Catholic Church is a good example of what happens when sex is forcibly denied. Children get hurt.
If on the other hand, through awareness or just plain fucking yourself out, you drop sex, then there will be no adverse repercussions.
@jf12 “I bet most men reading here suspect Confused is completely fabricating the part about her being healthy and attractive and never-been-kissed at 31” I admit that it’s uncommon for a healthy, attractive 31 year old to have never been kissed but the fact is, in my case, it’s true. Part of this is due to personal values and other reasons are because I went through some things early in life that really hindered my ability to interact and meet men for the possibility of a relationship. I didn’t go on my first date until I was 26 and even… Read more »
@confused, Assuming you’re not trolling (and I don’t think you are at this point) your ‘confusion’ is rooted in the fact that you are what I call a ‘Late Term Virgin’: http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/09/the-adolescent-social-skill-set/ I don’t know what your reasonings are for n=0, never kissed, but at 31 this is a huge red flag you’re still clinging to an adolescent social skill set. To the Men you’re attracted to in their 40-50s, who’ve mature well beyond any self-defeating obligation to sort you out, this is a non-starter. Now, if you’re a troll, your response will be, “you stupid men need to make… Read more »
@Softek, you do need sex: http://therationalmale.com/2013/06/26/you-need-sex/ The unhealthy disconnect here is that human beings do in fact need sex. We can attach other ephemeral aspects to the sex act (or masturbation if that’s the only recourse), like love, emotion, commitment, etc., but on a base level your body needs sexual release in one form or another. Yes, you can willfully override the need, just like you can overcome hunger while you’re fasting or on a hunger strike, but the need is still the operative in that act of will. Once hunger, breathing and thirst are satisfied, sex is the single… Read more »
@Glenn, …and shit tests don’t have much of one either for example. Oh really? Perhaps we should ask the 51 year old “sexiest man alive” about that? http://dishnation.com/exclusive-amber-heard-puts-the-press-on-puny-fiance-johnny-depp-to-muscle-up/ Until I see an experiment that uses a control like I mentioned in the comments on the last article, I find myself skeptical. I guess you still haven’t bothered with the Dr. Martie Hasselton studies I linked there and have been on my side bar links since I started RM? And as I pointed out in that article, Game doesn’t happen in a vacuum, which is precisely the reason PUAs (for better… Read more »
denihilist: 35-40% of married women are free-ranging. That’s in the ballpark of what this woman said. (She says it’s a little higher, but who knows, and anyway, there is no Average Woman.) http://womensinfidelity.com/womens-infidelity-i-ii/ I read these books and started making small disreputable, ironic comments to three highly reputable married women friends, each of whom I’ve known for years in a completely reputable manner (my historical frame with marrieds). I made one such deniable comment to each of three. One of them propositioned me in a long email. One invited me to ‘stop in and see her’ while her husband was… Read more »
@Glenn Whenever I hear that Game is “unscientific” and does not work or that shit-tests do not exist, I always wonder in what kind of world guys live who do not see this behavior? I talked with quite a few women and they start observing the commonly known Red Pill behavior suddenly. I’ve read plenty of articles even in the mainstream where female journalists took part in PUA-bootcamps in order to write scathing articles about them, but usually they come back writing long exposes in the tone of: “Shit – this stuff could really work!” It is one thing reading… Read more »
Of the 40>50 women I’ve had sex with, two of them were over 16 years older than I was at the time. I can tell you from experience, nailing those women (both on a semi-regular basis) was largely a novelty for me. They looked good enough to bang and I simply wanted to see if the ‘more experienced’ trope was true (it’s not). Last night I was at a pre-launch promo event for a new product in my whisky brand line (release party is Saturday). At events like this I’m surrounded by my ‘pour girls’, all in the HB8-9 range,… Read more »
re: open hypergamy, women’s need for dread, the Unreasonable Effectiveness of Disreputability, etc.
There is a good reason that we used to raise our daughters to be demure when young, and our young sons to compete with each other on the ballfield. Otherwise the young women sexually compete for men who are dominant over women.
Given the nature of the FI, I predict there will be increasingly explicit recognition that encouraging men to dominate women would work far too well. So there will be, within months, a massive re-education campaign dismantling the failed kumbaya of the two most recent generations, designed to re-encourage men to compete with other men, instead. The usual “A True Alpha is a Leader of Men!!” claptrap we’ve been hearing in spurts.
@Rollo – I can tell you from personal experience (based on talks with successful older men and their mistresses) that it starts out as “thrill seeking”, but soon after matures into Hamster on overdrive and divorces-his-wife-and-starts-anew-with-me fantasies. In one smaller company I was working at the 3 bosses stopped hiring attractive secretaries, because it cost 2 of them the first marriages. The third one told me stories of his other successful friends – one in which his 20yo Romanian mistress one day could not take it anymore and visited his wife in Germany. He came home to see his mistress… Read more »
How many different ways can we spin Goldmund’s Game working in this encounter?
http://goldmundunleashed.com/goldmund-interviews-attractive-woman-bangs-hour-later/
And fuck you too zellers ” a short ginger guy with average looks “ indeed. It’s entirely normal where I am, in fact it’s The Law, I’ll have you know!
And I’m not even short. Damned impudence.
@ Rollo I’ve read that article, and I agree with the points in it, but it doesn’t discuss sex as a physiological need. Psychological defense mechanisms are one thing, but sex as an independent variable is another. What’s the point of asking this question? To keep people from freaking themselves out by keeping things in perspective. The past is gone. I have gone way more years than most people without having sex — I’m still a virgin. Thinking of sex as a need sets you up for victimizing yourself: feeling like you’ve missed out, like you’re broken or defective, etc.… Read more »
While she is not young, at age 30, everything being normal with her anatomy, she can still have at least three kids with 2-3 years in between each if she starts now or next year. So in that regard she shouldn’t be desperate (and probably isn’t, as her type of women, artsy urban, usually manage to have one baby at best – so basically she has about 12 years left to have one baby which is more than enough). Everyone here is obsessing over age, while ignoring the most important factor – the quality of the males she considers. A… Read more »
re: “she probably has an over inflated sense of value”
She probably thinks the caviar store should be moved closer to her apartment.
W/R/T to Guldman, the privacy violation (publishing his fake, taped interview in the context of bragging on his subsequent conquest) is astonishing. I suppose she may not have a father or brothers who will get in the truck from whatever small town she originates from, and shotgun the intrepid swordsman Guldman. But he shouldn’t be surprised if this act doesn’t get him deep into the shit one day. Turnabout would be extremely fair play.
BuenaVista,
The interview by itself seemed pretty authentic to me. I agree with you on the subsequent violation of privacy. I’m curious what, if any, contact and agreements he had with her post-bang.
re: Goldmund. While I must deplore the overall immorality of it all, I accede to our host’s request. 1) His approach is sound, but ancient. Seriously,”camera game” and “interview game” is quite tired. Yes, it works, obviously. But it would have been cuter as an 1890s b&w flashbulb thing. “Hold this duckling as if you’re going to kiss it.” 2) Upscale disreputability is what works on upscale girls. He portrayed himself as a sort of talent scount for a “gentleman’s club”. That’s what hooked her, not his subsequent patter. No, this isn’t a “Game only works on sluts” comment. 3)… Read more »
The interview is legit only so far as it’s cool to misrepresent oneself as an objective ‘researcher’ or ‘artist’ (he adopts both poses from time to time, or at the same time) in order to cold-approach women. But in my view that really just indicts him for being a small-time hustler, it doesn’t really hurt anyone else. If a girl wants to be hustled for a phony art project, that’s her business. I don’t care. There’s no way she signed a release to be splashed across the internet as a day-game loser archetype. That girl is from some small town,… Read more »
JF12, she is just a relatively lonely, provincial girl whose friends all brag on their occasional hook-ups, and now she wants one too. Whoever was driving into town to meet up with her is hours late, she’s at loose ends, she doesn’t have a lot of friends in the city (otherwise she would have been to Williamsburg or Red Hook or wherever the fuck Guldsman has located his Seduction Spaceship), and the guy made her giggle with his attention and his “I’m am artist-reserarcher” guise. I’m sure Guldsman is fairly handsome or she wouldn’t have gone anywhere with him. So… Read more »
Just to disabuse you of the “Rich Architect” myth, it is a common apex fallacy, like that of the pay gap myth for wymmynz. The tiniest sliver of Architects are “millionaires” as it is a very tough business with a lot of low end talent dragging down the rates that decent offices can charge. Unless said Architect is a “Starchitect” as we call them (top 0.4% of the field) or they are doing side deals in real estate and acting as a developer, so they see upside to the built out project they are unlikely to be raking in massive… Read more »
@BV re: “This is no different than a woman having sex with a man, and then deciding after the fact to publicly claim the man raped her. We are really, really close to an era in which men are publicly shamed and hounded, if not arrested, because they have sex with a woman and for whatever reason she decides it was a bad idea, or he decides it was a bad idea and dumps her — and she uses the public disclosure of private acts to damage the man’s life.” Interesting idea with legs. So, a man’s triumphalist crowing about… Read more »
I don’t know if they are the same thing at all, JF12, but the two ideas converge in the unwarranted, illicit public shaming. And it’s *not* central to his thesis or exposition. This dude just uses her face because he wanted everyone to see that he pulled an attractive girl. Next thing we’ll know he’ll publish the length of his dick, so we can ooh and ah about that.
Splitting logs today, BV out.
re: “same thing” vs “symplectic”. The whole point of using the word symplectic is to denote that that it is not fully parallel, i.e. twisted, partially antisymmetric.
The reason I repeatedly bring up the symplectification of male-female analogues is that empirically they are always symplectic in one and only one way, instead of the 2^n possible ways. Maybe someone will be interested enough to do the hard part of data cataloguing to see the pattern.
Interesting. I posted that link to show an insight to how Game can work. I predicted there’d be guys who’d spin Goldmunds ‘success’ was due to his looks. That was a given, even though we have no pics of him men presume he’s not horrible to look at. He sounds young, perhaps mid-20s, so that’s an advantage. The camera is a crutch for sure, but he has other “interviews” with about a dozen other women, the majority of which were enthusiastic in their being on camera and explaining what men needed to do to get them into bed if not… Read more »
re: the “girl is playing an active part in her own seduction”. Yes, which is exploited more directly in Conspiracy game.
I’m lightly thinking about upscale disreputability as a form of peacocking, handicapping because of the need to carry the burden of disreputability without being arrested or beaten up too much.
I moved to NYC 3 years ago- even without game, you have to be one hell of a train wreck not to get laid here on the regular. the posting of her face is something I hadn’t thought about until the comment upstream, and now that I think about it, it is kind of disturbing. Not sure what I think about that. But I do know that things like that can mess things up for other men. Women, I’ve found, are much less likely to send nude selfies now that so much attention has been shown on guys sharing them… Read more »
@ Hobbes
Is that true? I live within 3-4 hours of NYC but have never been there. The town I live in is in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. I don’t have the money to live out there but it would be interesting to see if visiting there could change anything. I’m about ready to put a bullet through my head over here.
It is. You actually don’t need “typical” game here. Back in Miami I would get about 3-4 lays a year if I was single and many of them where with friends of friends etc and because I was playing music alot which leads to meeting lots of women. Here I am pulling about 10 a yr, at least (already have 13 under my belt for this year) and I am working and going to school full time. I also don’t have many friends.. so its all low effort online stuff -3 out of 5 online dates turn into sex- and… Read more »
@Hobbes, south beach is the majors, for sure.
Rollo,
My kneejerk reaction is that he is unnecessarily shaming her on the the internet, and that’s extremely uncool. You’re making me question my motivations though.
An outstanding piece once again Rollo.
For too long men have been denied these teachings. Thank God we have the internet and and benevolent people such as yourself.
My eternal gratitude.
Found this gem from 2011 by typing Rollo Tomassi and a woman’s all caps question into google.
The Gem: “http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/08/rooting-through-garbage/
Her Question (on FB):
“Is it wrong for a married man or woman to go see a friend of the opposite sex… Especially if this person is their ex-fiancé?”
Which posts on RM answer this question?
Jenny Bahn isn’t thinking about any ex. She’s trying to attract “Alex”
re: Gone Girl-hood.
One of the things that kept Jenny on Alex’s hook is that he was giving her signs of sleeping with a 23 yr old “who he is dating precisely because she’s not looking for anything at all.” The quintessential bad-boy maneuver, that keeps all the other plates spinning, is to have a younger and sluttier girlfriend. It is important, as Jenny emphasizes repeatedly, that the younger girl be “lesser”.
OK, I’ll cop to the experiment now. The Goldmund pick up video is a perfect example of what I’m illustrating in this post. The “where are the numbers/science/proof” guys will always find some reason why it’s not legit. And even Game adherents want to kill the guy for overstepping common decency for actually posting his successful pull video. This is exactly the ethical dilemma I’m describing in here: Even some well meaning red pill Men may want to self-affirmingly ridicule the PUAs of the past and present, but if you have embraced a red pill awareness today, at least partially,… Read more »
re: Architect – it is true that they live off of contracts and most of them are not big shots (as in most professions), however, the original attraction of an architect is not about money – it is one of those professions that artsy girls like. It is not only respectable, but creative! He is designing his own cool stuff, it is beautiful and people want it. This girl could go after investment bankers like other NYC models if she wanted to, but that’s not her type – unless, they have a creative personality too, they are not interesting to… Read more »
Why do you guys assume that she has a crush on Alex? She definitely likes him, but how do you know that next month she won’t be talking on the phone at night with another dude? And, btw, real love doesn’t happen like that, you can’t just select a guy as if from a catalogue, it just happens at some point in your life.
Marketable idea (I brim with them): (mercifully short) POV PUA videos, in which the male viewer can pretend he is the guy doing the picking up. After the commercial success of the first half-dozen of these shorts, grab some millions from the financiers throwing money your way, and produce a new kind of 21st century feature: an interactive movie, sort of a photorealistic choose-your-adventure. Like if Leisure Suit Larry was produced by Bill Gates using a Cray.
Commandment IX. Connect with her emotions
Selection for fitness is the inverse of selection for adaptability.
Kryazhimskiy S, Rice D, Jerison E, Desai M. 2014. Global epistasis makes adaptation predictable despite sequence-level stochasticity. Science, 344(6191), 1519-1522.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6191/1519.long
“initial genotype did not constrain future mutational trajectories”
@Rollo: I think what you don’t understand and what the looks crowd is trying to get across is that since PUAs have tested game (they probably won’t admit this part), we can actually see that looks matter a whole lot than most PUAs would care to admit. Even successful application of game will cap at some point and this “capping” isn’t too significant either. The more I read about the arguments that “looks matter”, the more I’m realizing that this is true. For young women it does matter more than game. Mind you, I’ve been gaming for over 10 years,… Read more »
re: Atticus. If Finch had become the victim of a rumor that he had to get treated for syphilis that he contracted from a (white) prostitute he defended “pro bono”, he would have had a lot (white) women after him a lot more frantically.
re: “in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.” + “I believe game can improve your lot to some degree”
Infact, nothing could be could be more self-contradictory and appallingly ignorant of both logic and science.
PUAs shed a valuable light on reality…..however, posting a video of the girl is just disgusting. She went with him to enjoy the moment and the guy then humiliates her in public for no reason. For all of the talk about female duplicity, this is the male equivalent.
It’s only women that have a vested interest in discouraging “dishonestsignalz” guys from trying. Only women. Any males who do so are so blue they’re green (anti-red) pillers wholly subservient to the FI.
@jf12: Did you even read my post or are you pretending to be dense? Seems to me like you nit picked pieces of my comments to fulfill a narrative of yours. I said, “in fact, nothing could be further from the truth” after I stated that the community upholds the idea that game is the great equalizer. It isn’t. I then said, “game can improve your lot to some degree” as a general statement. Most women who do sleep with men already have it in their heads that they will sleep with the guy, granted he doesn’t fuck up a… Read more »
This — “If a girl wants to be hustled for a phony art project, that’s her business. I don’t care. … For this she is outed on the internet? Women can play this game too, and we men don’t appreciate it.” — is not mate-guarding, white-knighting, or hand-wringing. Perhaps the suggestion was directed elsewhere, rather than being the product of internet mind-reading of BV, in which case, disregard my subsequent notes. The blow-back from this idiot’s self-aggrandizing ‘I am such a playa, watcha me score’ outing of this girl could be severe. If others emulate him it *will* be severe.… Read more »
Agent P, at 10:32 a.m., discusses the illusory economic value of being an architect, and why it’s ironic (to anyone in the know) that Jenny ascribes socio-sexual prestige to him. I think his comment (entirely true) reveals much about Jenny’s quandary, how she got there, and where (absent change) she’ll wind up. Basically, these girls are still in college, where someone else pays the bills, looks carry the day, and tomorrow never comes. So sure, the cute guy with the atelier is high status to her, because he just looks like a guy who would be photographed well at an… Read more »
So was posting highly intimate details online a part of this “art project”? Did he ever tell her that that’s what he was gonna do? Frankly, she should sue him (it is scandalous that thing isn’t removed yet, does she even know?). In ancient times, family men lynched those types of guys. This woman is easy to impress, but first and foremost she is a human being. How would you like to see your female relative’s picture with words like “she sucked my dick while I licked her ass” right next to her face? It can happen to your daughter… Read more »
re: life of leisure. My (first) wife’s stated reason for majoring in English was so “I’ll get paid for reading good books! Bwa-ha-ha!”
One of my good (male) buddies is a professsor of leisure studies and avid outdoorsman. He literally publishes research articles on what the fish were bitin’ last week.
It’s literally impossible to protect women’s “right” to choose to sex up triumphant jerks and to prevent said triumphants jerks from being jerks and being triumphant.
” . . . the best defense against the new California affirmative consent law is simply to tape all sexual encounters . . .” The law makes every encounter a he said/she said affair (as it were), with primacy given to what she said. Therefore, taping all sexual encounters is simply the first and most obvious defense. The next step is to be able to show where you were when, so you may have a defense against any woman making any specific claim against you. You’ll need a 24/7 GPS log for this. Back it up twenty ways from Sunday… Read more »
Jenny’s post is highly enlightening. I mean, look at her. She’s 30 and a former high profile model.
At that age she is capable of attracting plenty of high value men, but despite that, she is whining because she now lacks the ability to select only the best of the best, the top 1%.
Her life from 17 to 27 must have been so easy…
“Girls who, in my experience, are less impressive, less striving, less volatile, less successful, less intimidating, less questioning, less pressing, less complex, less damaged, less opinionated, less powerful, less womanly. They are less, and, to a guy not ready for anything—like most of the guys I have dated in New York—less is more.” At 40 most guys in my line of work are billing 400 – 700 grand per year. Every 15 minute conversation that I have where I am subjected to “intimidating, questioning, pressing, opinionated,” costs me $70 to $100 Bucks…. I simply cannot and will not stand for… Read more »
Alex validating himself with a hot 23 year old
Ah… And here I thought I was just f**king them, instead I was being “validated”… That’s a woman’s logic for you – she can’t face the fact that men have sex with young women because we WANT to have sex with ATTRACTIVE, YOUNG women… And 30 year olds are on the downward slide…
h.s. nails it about architecs, just ask George Constanza!
Cornelius, from my experience, you have it about right. I was a stammering introverted dude in my teens and early twenties (to much dope smoking if you must know), unless I was drunk. Still was able to get my notch count close to 30 before getting hitched. Turns out the girls thought I was real cute. Out of that bunch, I think I opened/approached about 10 of them, the rest just used me for my looks. Funny how when looking back on it, I was into mostly pump and dump. Just wanted to get laid, and smoke some more grass.… Read more »
BV – the fight club rule is for a different culture, that us older chaps grew up in. Now a days, just look at Face Book, it is all about putting out there how special we are, male or female. Sickening really.
@ Hobbes
Send me a message at gt90345@yahoo.com if you want.
Which made me think that while it’s cool that men can talk about this stuff because of the Internet, it would be ideal to get to know people in person who’re on the same page. The personal disconnect of the Internet is kind of disorienting to say the least. Although that’s a topic for another day.
@softek
Got it, will do