Three Strikes

From European DJ on the SoSuave:

How many dates max, before you fuck her?
Let mé know your thought and an explanation.


The problem inherent with coming up with hard and fast Game rules of engagement is that there’s always going to be a caveat or special conditions for a guy’s particular girl of focus at the time. Even when there’s not, guys are prone to think “there’s something special about this one.” Part of the reason that Plate Theory is integral to Game is that it encourages Men to disabuse themselves of their previous beta impressions of each woman they accidentally drew interest from as some unique little snowflake. It’s hard for your average chump to think of a woman showing base-line rudimentary IOIs (indicators of interest) and NOT think she’s predestined for him by virtue of his self-acknowledged scarcity mentality. When you’re starving in the desert, Saltine crackers seem like mana from heaven.

Risk & Reward

In Game, there is a subtle balance that needs to be recognized between risks of over-investing in a particular woman with regards to practicality and not throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water and losing on a potentially rewarding opportunity. Women, as is particular to their own Game, will naturally come down on the side of casting doubt on a man’s valid assessment of a woman’s potential value, both in long term perspectives and potential sexual satisfaction. This presumption of doubt is a built in failsafe social convention for women; if only you’d been more patient, if only you invested a little bit more, you’d be rewarded with a great mother for your children and the best pussy of your life – don’t blow it now!

The short version is that it’s not in women’s best sexual-strategy interests for a man to have sexual options. Women’s sexual strategy is very schizophrenic – ideally women want a Man that other women want to fuck, but in order to assess his sexual market value to other women he’s got to have exercisable options for her to compete against, or at least display indirect social proof to that effect. So, she needs to limit his options while simultaneously determining he has those options. Now add to this the hypergamous necessity of maintaining  a reasonable pool of suitors suspended in doubt of her own SMV in order to determine the best one among them for short term sexual provisioning and long term security provisioning.


In light of understanding women’s sexual strategy, it’s important for Men to adopt an mental schema of pragmatism – in the SMP you’re really another commodity in hypergamy’s estimation. I realize the difficulty most guys (particularly younger guys) have with mentally training themselves for thinking this way, so let me state from the outset that I’m not suggesting you kill your romantic, artistic souls in favor of cold calculations. In fact it’s vital you do keep that side of yourself intact for the survival of any future relationship and a more balanced human experience. Plate Theory and, really, efficient Game can seem dehumanizing, but what Game denialists fail to grasp is that they’re already operating in a dehumanized environment – it’s the social conditioning of the feminine imperative that makes men believe that Game is inhumane, because the feminine imperative has made itself synonymous with humanity.

Hypergamy doesn’t care if you’re a great, poetic soul. Hypergamy doesn’t care about your most sincere religious devotions. Hypergamy doesn’t care if you’re a great Father to your kids. Hypergamy seeks better than its own level, it wants the best commodity it’s capable of attracting and maintaining. Hypergamy is above all, practical, and thus Men, the True Romantics must be pragmatists to enact their own sexual strategy.

Three Strikes

I had a lot of shit slung at me when I offered up Wait For It? As I stated above, I had the predictable feminine doubt doctrine lobbed at me in response from the beginning. I expected that, but to answer European DJ’s question more definitively, be pragmatic.

Put it this way, with just average Game, in 3 dates you should be able to determine if her desire level is high enough to want to fuck you.

In 3 dates you’ll know if her desire is genuine or if it’s mitigated by something else – another guy in rotation, sexual hangups, filibustering, etc.

In 3 dates you’ll have had sex or you’ll have had the “I wanna wait / I need to be comfortable talk.”

If you have sex on the 1st date or a same-night-lay, in all likelihood she’s really hot for, and into, fucking you based on physical criteria alone.

If you have sex on the 2nd or 3rd date, she’s into fucking you and probably wants a relationship because she wanted to give you a token impression of her not being ‘easy’.

If she fucks you after the 4th date, you’ll do as her first alternate.

If you’re sexless after 5-6 dates you’ve probably been at it for over 6 weeks and The Medium is the Message. NEXT.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

33 comments on “Three Strikes

  1. The 3rd Date is extremely reliable. In almost all of my conventional dating seductions, i.e. those that went from number close to dates 1, 2 and 3, the third date was consistently the winner, even if it wasn’t technically a date but just a third face-to-face encounter. Of course it all depends on how you manage the first two, but at some point, Date 3 became the balancing point between the Seductive Man’s imperative (sex her) and the Seduced Woman’s imperative (must not appear exceptionally slutty but must hang on to him).

    The only thing I’d add is that I usually knew well before Date 3 – in fact often before Date 1 – whether she was mine to lose. Those first few minutes of interaction set the tone.

  2. i once waited 8 weeks, what transpired was sexual hang ups, hated oral giving and recieving and missionary position only, never ever worth the wait. ever ever ever. Lesson learned-next!

  3. There’s an idiom that’s been around since the early 80s that says “Women know if they’ll sleep with you in the first five minutes of meeting you.”

    I don’t specifically agree with that, but I would say that women know if they WONT sleep with you within the first five minutes of meeting you.

  4. At last !

    A.B. Dada hasn’t posted the first response !

    He must be in Dubai…no, wait — I mean Vegas….or was it Prague? Or London? Wherever he is, I’m sure he’s carrying his purse, flip-phone, Ipad — and his Beretta, of course.

  5. Yes indeed. Every women I’ve slept with told me that they knew within about 10 minutes of the first date they wanted to sleep with me. All of them. Also, with every women I’ve waited for after three dates to have sex with turned out to have major issues. Not really interested, didn’t like sex, etc. The three date rule holds up for me……

  6. Every relationship I’ve had in the last 10 years we had sex the first night we met or the first date we went on. Everytime sex was delayed it was because there wasn’t the right amount of interest on her end.

    If a woman won’t have sex with you then how much is she interested, really, in having a relationship? Think about it, a relationship has a much higher level of investment required on her part in terms of lost opportunity with other guys. Once upon a time that was exactly reversed, but the pill and sexual revolution changed all that. I think this flip flop is a key reason we have hookup culture today. Sex first, maybe a relationship second.

  7. A few mitigating factors I can think of:
    1) if she’s a virgin who has been strongly conditioned her whole life to wait until marriage


    2) if she’s extremely and unusually hot


    3) if she’s romantically smitten with you to the point of obsession

    But for normal girls, I’m more familiar with sex on the first date leading to whatever relationship is to follow. Some men will be put off by fast sex, an prefer the woman to be more calculated in her fucking, and to coldly and calculatingly wait until the third date, thus proving that she isn’t just a horny slut, but is only fucking the guy for real romantic reasons. Some other men are blind to the slut factor, and will just as happily start a relationship with fast sex – in fact we prefer it as lust is a very large component of our reason to have a relationship at all.

  8. Good post. Girl I gamed and banged on NY Eve suddenly got cold on me after I went on holiday and posted photos of me and my ex having a drink.

    It amped up the tension and scared her off a little.

    Just before coming back from a long holiday, I wrote her suggesting we meet up.

    She replied she was tired and having flu.

    Wrong answer. The correct answer should have been “Let’s meet up blah blah blah”

    This is a next.

    I replied to her text with the following: …

    This non-reply of … really get chicks going. They become very nervous around that tiny non-word …

  9. One. Occasionally 2, but that’s usually because of logistics, not lack of attraction.

    If a chick is going to fuck you on date 5 she’s going to fuck you on date 1. Tighten up your game so that the stuff that builds attraction on date 2-5 happens on date 1. That’s why you have a solid repeatable “Day 2” that has social proof, good logistics, venue changing, etc all built in. Like having her pick you up at your place but not staying long so she’s comfortable coming back there later, have her leave her car at your place because you want to walk, take her to a lounge near your place where the bartenders/waitresses know you by name, have an excuse to leave (“this place is so loud. let’s have the next drink at my place, I’ll show you that movie we talked about”), stop at a convenience store on the way or walk through a park etc. By that point you guys should be making out. Bring her into your place and escalate from there.

    There’s no reason to take her skydiving on date 1 and then to a fancy restaraunt on date 2 and then out to a movie for date 3 blah blah blah. PUAs used to call it Speed Seduction, and our main message board was Fast Seduction. There’s a reason for those titles.

    Any bullshit about “a girl putting out on the first date means she’s not girlfriend material” is just social conditioning and a madonna/whore complex on the man’s part. Which, ironically, is WHY girls try to make guys wait a few dates before they fuck…cause they fear that judgement. When a girl can tell you won’t judge her, she’ll let down the Anti-Slut Defense ASAP.

  10. I’m on the same page with Rollo and YaReally and SamSpade because it is a beneficial Game mindset. Many guys appear to be ecstatic if a girl agrees to go on a date and have no intent to make a physical move or are too nervous to attempt something. Saying to yourself that something sexual is going to happen by “dates (not formal, just getting together)” 1 to 5 or you go on to the next girl who is interested makes you practice escalating (that if done gradually/seductively as perceived by her increases her arousal thus increasing a sexual experience happening) and escalation is the goal directed action that gets your desired sexual results. It may be just me, but I seem to be noticing most guys are AFC’s and more judgmental about sex than many women are. I can give women seductive non-verbal eye contact (while projecting a subtle yet powerful masculine sexual vibe) and within about 3 seconds (women then usually open their eyes wider and look up more and have a faster heart rate) she can feel that the frame/intent of any interaction that we have going forward is of a sexual nature, therefore any physical escalations are to be expected and desired by the both of us on our “dates.” Therefore, this (there is actually a few concepts within this “go for physical escalations by dates 1-5 and if she is not receptive then move on to the next girl who is interested” that is sometimes summerized such as, “Get blown or get blown out” or “Make her say no and she is free to leave or you didn’t escalate far enough”) is a beneficial to you Game suggestion by Rollo.

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  13. Women decide when sex will happen and how far you’ll get with them. Men don’t have that kind of power. Male choice is rarely ever enforced. Female choice is almost always enforced.

  14. Again, isn’t it possible for a girl to be into you, but feel strongly that sex is something that should wait for emotional and/or spiritual reasons?

    And wouldn’t this be the “correct” kind of girl to LTR or marry?

  15. Rollo i have a question in regard to this particular theme. I had my fair share of one night stands and also been forced to wait for an eternity EVEN when i have already started a LTR… Let me put this in perspective, in my country there’s is no implied 3 Dates Rule… in fact, women over here have far more power in this regard, in fact there’s a popular saying over here: “Man proposes, woman disposes”

    So the women over here are “oblivious” of that rule, so if you walk away after only three dates you’re more than likely wasting a chance. But i’ll admit that there’s some girls that are totally leading you on so you can take them on dates, to drink, eat, etc with no obligation whatsoever to fuck with you which is even worse than being directly friendzoned.

    What’s you take in this particular situation?

    A concerned venezuelan recuperating from a LTR and trying to get back in the game

    1. Regional, cultural differences noted, but it’s important to remember that 3-Strikes is about pragmatism, not punishment.

      3-Strikes (or 6 if you read the last part) is more about a man determining genuine interest levels vs. the mitigating factors that influence women’s sexual filtering.

      It’s not about forcing a woman’s hand into complying to your frame (‘3 dates, no sex? NEXT”), it’s about determining her genuine interest in being sexual/intimate with you versus her transactional interests.

      Also, never presume women are “oblivious” to anything, particularly when it come to inter-gender dynamics. They are far more perceptive and calculating than men assume they are.

  16. That´s why i used the “..” hehehe. Thanks for your answer i get what you’re saying… Women are extremely calculating, in fact they tend to use both the advantages machismo and feminism offer them and apply ruthlesly the hypergamy mindset.

    BTW i recently ended (very painfully) a 4 year LTR that was originally headed towards marriage, but ended up in failure. 32 years old

  17. I tend to be extremely cheap of first coffee..I want to know if its even worth going out with. It seems to be a good tactic..offering to take her skydiving and the movies and dinner is beta try hard. Make it the easiest thing for her to say yes to..then use your tongue from there.

  18. I agree with the 3 strike rule for younger chicks of 30
    And under but once she hits about 32 something seems to flip in their heads, women of this age and up seem determined to hold out longer even if they want to fuck.

    It’s probably because at this age her clock is ticking and she doesn’t have time to “waste” on flings that would won’t lead to commitment, so she re-invents herself as a “quality woman” in the hope of convincing you that she is LTR/ marriage material.

    It’s up to you to decide if you can push the envelope to 5-6 dates max but I would only do this if I was sure it was her ASD holding her back and not down to a low interest level.

    If you wait to date 5-6 and the sex is sub par, don’t stick around waiting for it to improve as you’ve been sold a lemon and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze!

  19. @ Rollo

    Wow, great post. Thank you.

    To be honest, the ‘dehumanization’ aspect of Game is one of my big problems with it. Referring to women as ‘plates’ or ‘HB-whatevers’ reminds me of when I worked for a semi-illegal Timeshare company who referred to potential customers as UPs (Unqualified Prospects) rather than ‘people’. It was a deliberate tactic, designed to prevent us salespeople from empathizing too much with them. After all, our job was to sell them a week of Timeshare, not be their friend. And whenever I questioned the ethics of some of our sales techniques, the usual answer was: ‘These UPs are adults and no-one’s putting a gun to their heads. They can always say no.’

    However, your post totally nails the fact that women are equally cold-blooded in their quest for the ‘right’ partner. That hypergamy has no ethics and women’s approach to the Mating Game is entirely pragmatic. Moreover, that it is us men who want to bring some ‘ethics’ into the situation. And I see the logic of your argument: That trying to do that is wrong-headed; that it would serve me better to drop the whole ethical ‘thing’ and meet pragmatism with pragmatism. You say in your post that men are conditioned ‘to believe that Game is inhumane because the feminine imperative has made itself synonymous with humanity’ and on one level I agree.

    But the way I see it, both Game and Hypergamy are equally inhumane—that this is kind of the point. That the development of Game was a pragmatic response to women’s pragmatic approach to fulfilling their sexual imperative. But the question I struggle with is: Do I even want to do that? Sure, trying to be ‘ethical’ in my sexual relationships hasn’t worked all that well, but it’s worked wonderfully in other areas of my life—with my son, my friends, in my freelance career. I like who I am, even if it doesn’t turn women on, and the few times in the past I used Game to get women into bed (and it does work, no doubt about that), I felt the same as I did when I’d sold a Timeshare to some couple: Good in the moment, but with that nagging doubt afterwards, wondering whether they were better off from my actions or not. I had to start cultivating a cold detachment to be able to live with it and it wasn’t good for me. I became a much better person when I quit that job and it feels like the same might be true of me and women.

  20. @ex-cartoonist

    The fact is, it is a market, where one finds contentment if what one likes (or accepts) to supply has some overlap with what the opposite sex likes (or accepts) to receive, and the reverse as well.

    Say one is after truth: telling it and being told it: integrally, and without exception. This person can’t do relationships (be kind, and don’t ask me how I know). But we are talking of 1‰ cases here (mostly only males).

    Say one is irked by conformism and programmability: then this one can’t approach the unlimited stream of “I love to travel, am strong independent, you must make me laugh” online profiles that look like some misogynistic hacking of websites to put women in a terrible light, but I am afraid are real.

    Not all of us are going to find a shelf with the goods that would suit us, and not all of us are going to be goods anyone of the opposite sex wishes to find on a shelf.

    For most healthy people truth, real equality of status within the relation/relationship, sincerity, loyalty, are not needed (or indeed menaces to their comfort of mind), they are adaptive and fluid enough to ensnare men into what relationship is more of use to them at the stage of life they are in, or, if men, to do what it takes to do to get sex, or get offspring (I am not detailing on this, it’s up to each man to determine what it takes to him).

  21. @ TT

    After reading your comment where you spoke of ‘contentment’, I got to thinking: ‘When have I experienced true contentment with a woman?’ And you’re right—all the good memories I have with women have involved some kind of overlap between what I want and what the woman wants. For example, I enjoy deep, serious conversations and dislike ‘chit-chat’, so I’ve tended to gravitate towards women who feel the same way. And in those moments when a woman and I were engaged in a deep, serious conversation—often involving sex—then time spent with a woman was a wonderful, wonderful thing.

    But, sooner or later, the woman’s life agenda and mine clash. My life agenda could be characterised as ‘To achieve my ambition or die trying’, a course which requires my commitment, energy and willingness to make sacrifices. And, however much these women say they respect my ambition, they don’t want to make those sacrifices. I’ve chosen a difficult path and they don’t want to share it. And I understand too—sometimes I wonder if I’d be happier if I just gave up. But I can’t, not really. That just seems to be who I am and how it is.

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