For Better or Worse

betterorworse

Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.

The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.

The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.

Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.

For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.

As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.

Instant Gratification

In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.

It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.

As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.

On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.

The Open Hypergamy Future

I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.

Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?

My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.

People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.

[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.

The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.

The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.

Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.

Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”

We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.

Primary LTRs

The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.

Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.

I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.

The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.

It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.

There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.

We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ AR

” Dunno. How important should your feelz be to me or anyone else?”

They should be paramount.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

If Boudica had been a man, she would have won. Relevant to Scribbler’s comment to me, although I’m not sure he and I disagree as much as he seems to think we do. Men think like a shark. Women think like a school of herring. Because these are different orders of thought, they cannot be directly compared. The closest you can get is to compare the concise thought of an individual man with the emergent thought of the group of women. ” . . . various elites for the last 40 or more years have warned of “overpopulation” and insisted… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Rollo @AnonReader, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Judaism matrilinear? I’ve got a lot of jewish friends and business associates and they’ve told me that they trace their racial lines through the mother. A while back I was told by a very earnest Jewish woman that the matrilinearity in Judaism began in the Palitinate in what is now Germany due to rapes by Crusaders. It’s always interesting what people believe and why they believe it. Wikipedia is increasingly politicized but this topic seems fairly benign, looking at the link Blaximus posted I see a number of facts that can… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ AR

I too was told a long time ago by elder Jewish men and women that one’s ” Jewishness ” was determined matrilinealy.

Idk about the Palitinate thing.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

“They should be paramount.”

Cool.

http://filmpopper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Paramount.jpg

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ AR

Lol. Of course.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Blaximus

@ AR

I too was told a long time ago by elder Jewish men and women that one’s ” Jewishness ” was determined matrilinealy.

Yeah, me too.

Idk about the Palitinate thing.

Me either. It was at a social event and she had a glass of free wine in her hand. It was very important to her to tell me this in detail, apparently. Her husband stood by saying nothing, but shrugging a time or two.

People tell me the strangest things sometimes.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

kfg It is, but it is causing much consternation in the ranks, because while it piles the bodies high and deep, the population keeps rising anyway. Population growth is distinctly not uniform across the planet. That’s a problem for them that would control everything. And then there are the unintended consequences (such as few female births in China). The one-child policy will make China pretty uncomfortable in a few years, when combined with automation; “get old before get rich”. The one-child policy has been effectively changed to a two-child policy, but not for everyone. China is making a big push… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Culum ” absolutely agree nuance is important and guys who are learning and/or thirsty might ignore instructions to watch for that nuance and use judgment (in fact they definitely will – look at the details of what the two rapists did). But is that situation going to be worse or better in the absence of PUA? At least PUA teaching is a resource on how to do it right – it’s not as if men are going to stop trying to have sex with women (with the result that some men will do it badly and/or rape) in the… Read more »

Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@AR

Possibly relevant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilocal_residence

There are a few societies like this scattered across the world. I’ve visited the Mosuo and the Dai and they’re doing OK, as these things go in that neck of the woods. A bit battered about by larger cultural forces and powers-that-be, but that’s pretty normal for Eastern Himalayan ethnic minorities…

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@AR “I figured you’re always ready to quibble over when “marriage” as practiced in the past mutated into what it is now, i.e. from the “have and hold” model to the “child support” model.” Nah. It isn’t relevant to what you said. If I’m going to pick a quibble it would be that while it is on the surface a child support model, child support is a proxy. The function is the transfer of wealth to women. “A while back I was told by a very earnest Jewish woman that the matrilinearity in Judaism began in the Palitinate in what… Read more »

Forge the Sky
6 years ago

“the Alex mentioned here is just some dude who posted on the RSD forum and worked for some other random small pickup company” Ah, good. It would be pretty strange if this was an RSD instructor, Tyler isn’t a fool about these things. @Blax “There is much more to picking up a woman, for whatever purposes, than just ” picking them up “. From the little I have seen of the pickup vids ( mostly RSD stuff ), there is instruction not to be an unfeeling, molesting asshole. Guys are cautioned to be careful and read the signs given off… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ AR ” China is making a big push into Africa. Whether young Chinese men are willing to move there permanently and take local women as wives is unknown” Funny, we circle back to Puerto Rico, believe it or not. When researching the History of the island, I tried to discern what had happened to the Tiano population. It was almost wiped out. During my studies, I happened upon an interesting bit. Spanish solidiers stationed in PR ( by the thousands ) wanted to take Tiano brides, since there were not many Spanish women on the island. This required the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

As for questions about Judaism, there is an old Jewish saying:

Ask a rabbi a question and you will get a learned discourse.

Ask two rabbis a question and they will argue about it for the rest of their lives.

stuffinbox
6 years ago

The Jewish people are matrilineal.The Bedouins inherit their property to the females.This may stem from nomadic tribes the tent belongs to the woman as the man may not return. The Navajo are matrilineal. “Today, the total number of clans represented is calculated in to be over one hundred and forty, from twenty-one major groups. K’é—the Navajo kinship system—is the strength of the People. It keeps the Navajo people together. Navajo is a matrilineal and matrilocal society. Each Navajo belongs to four different, unrelated clans. He or she belongs to his or her mother’s clan. He or she is born for… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Then there is this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/three-parent-baby-world-first-born-mexico-a7333191.html

And this was done by a US based doctor, although in Mexico because there’s no rules against it.

Can’t help but wonder what is going on in mainland China in terms of genetic engineering.

Kate
Kate
6 years ago

I keep saying men need to withhold sex until there’s a commitment.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@KFG – I agree with most of what you say, and I guess I should also say that I enjoy your commentary immensely. I learn from your opaque clarity… So, is it your point that female collective/cooperative behavior is more advanced than male? Or sophisticated? Or are they merely better replicators of memes? I think it can be said that male social structures and relationships are quite complex and varied. This made me think of female ingroup preferences, could it be that their extreme social bias for ingroup is part of their evolved, collective socialization? I also wanted to direct… Read more »

Colbert
Colbert
6 years ago

@ Blax, “And just for the sake of argument, say a guy wants to tackle fatherhood, but doesn’t want risk, and pretty much figures he has the woman in question under control so that he’s confident she will go along with his risk averse plan, and your kid is born blind or with no arms? Where does the risk averse mindset fit into that scenario? How does the aversion to doing hard shit match up with this outcome?” True dat. No argument there, Blax. BTW, the death march minefield analogy was admittedly over the top after re-reading my own post.… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus “And just for the sake of argument, say a guy wants to tackle fatherhood, but doesn’t want risk, and pretty much figures he has the woman in question under control so that he’s confident she will go along with his risk averse plan, and your kid is born blind or with no arms? Where does the risk averse mindset fit into that scenario? How does the aversion to doing hard shit match up with this outcome?” lol wut? Why would being in a pLTR mean you can’t take care of your blind armless kid? She would be even more… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Interesting… [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8aD5zKPg4A&w=854&h=480%5D So, has the *nature* of young women/girls really *changed*, or is it only ramped up now? Admittedly that first GnR album, I wore that shit out. The whole album is great and Rocket Queen is a fave. I’d heard rumors about the moaning chick on Rocket Queen, but never got actual confirmation. Old Man Story 2- The first job I ever had in tech, I got promoted and had my own little office. On the wall behind my desk was a huge black and white framed poster of Slash passed out drunk in a doorway. In bold… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@gb_hill
Under the Tyler vid in this post:

https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/20/a-womans-prerogative/comment-page-2/#comment-170477

@Blaximus
“So, has the *nature* of young women/girls really *changed*, or is it only ramped up now?”

No one is saying the nature of women has changed, we are saying the societal influences on them have changed. Why do I have to keep repeating this 500000000 times?

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ YaReally ” lol wut? Why would being in a pLTR mean you can’t take care of your blind armless kid? She would be even more likely to need your support and less likely to bail on you in that case. You think she’s going to run off with the blind armless kid to fend for herself because you have side-poon? Or is your argument “someone who avoids risk in one area avoids risk in all other areas because I’m incapable of nuanced thinking and think that someone who doesn’t want to risk all of their assets, alimony, etc for… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” No one is saying the nature of women has changed, we are saying the societal influences on them have changed. Why do I have to keep repeating this 500000000 times?”

So… ramped up now, yes?

that’s what I said.

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus “Pua’s provide a needed service imo. Paid or not. It would be unfortunate to see the entre movement painted with a negative brush, especially if that negativity scares off men in need of services.” So put down the brush and do some research into what Tyler/Mystery/etc teach instead. PUAs teach all that win/win “leave her better than you found her” stuff. But a martial arts instructor who teaches his students not to use their skills to bully people can’t control that some people are fucking retarded and will go beat the shit out of someone for no reason with… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus
No idea what your point is, why would the blind armless kid be any worse off than in a legal marriage situation?

“So… ramped up now, yes? that’s what I said.”

That’s what we’ve all said since the beginning.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” lol wut? Why would being in a pLTR mean you can’t take care of your blind armless kid? She would be even more likely to need your support and less likely to bail on you in that case. You think she’s going to run off with the blind armless kid to fend for herself because you have side-poon?”

Lol.

Bruh, do you even women?

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus
So no actual argument, cool, about what I figured.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Hmmmm… I said – “Pua’s provide a needed service imo. Paid or not. It would be unfortunate to see the entre movement painted with a negative brush, especially if that negativity scares off men in need of services.” Then you said – So put down the brush and do some research into what Tyler/Mystery/etc teach instead. PUAs teach all that win/win “leave her better than you found her” stuff. But a martial arts instructor who teaches his students not to use their skills to bully people can’t control that some people are fucking retarded and will go beat the shit… Read more »

Colbert
Colbert
6 years ago

“Not sure how well the child would bond with even the pLTR given it’s not HER child.”

“wut? The baby would be the pLTR’s child.
wtf is anyone even talking about now lol”

LOL – I’m talking about having a surrogate child to which you would have FULL CUSTODY and THEN setting up a living arrangement with a pLTR and plates to get around marriage and custody issues. Just thinking out loud, Ya – lol. I’m not getting anywhere with it so NEVER MIND – lol.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ YaReally

Nah. No argument other than what I already stated. You got this man.

YaReally
6 years ago

@Colbert
lol ya I’d say that’s going backwards, she’d need it to be her baby.

Colbert
Colbert
6 years ago

@ YaReally,

Unless you’re a cult leader or Charlie Sheen 😉

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Colbert ” I guess a super mega alpha-pimp could maybe pull it off too. Charlie Sheen might have some thoughts on how to do this since he tried the ‘two goddesses raising my children thing” for a while.” Ummm…Charlie Sheen is not a model of success in this arena…lol. Charlie Sheen regrets not being “more involved” in his children’s lives. The ‘Two And A Half Men’ star – who has Cassandra, 31, with his ex-partner Paula Profit, daughters Sam, 12, and Lola, 11, with his former wife Denise Richards and seven-year-old twins Bob and Max with his ex-spouse Brooke… Read more »

stuffinbox
6 years ago

@Ya

So do you pick your favorite plate or your least favorite,to leave watching the kids?Would a HB 4 or an HB8 be more likely to agree to this pltr? f

Colbert
Colbert
6 years ago

Gotta love the guy though, lol.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZjOk2G80GM&w=560&h=315%5D

stringerbell
stringerbell
6 years ago

@yareally @scray @sentient

I posted some text FRs here. Really curious what you think of em’

https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/20/a-womans-prerogative/comment-page-5/#comment-170888

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Colbert

Now he’s this guy.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJGsCzKUO3k&w=854&h=480%5D

YaReally
6 years ago

@Colbert @Blaximus “Ummm…Charlie Sheen is not a model of success in this arena…lol.” lol I don’t think Charlie Sheen is a model of success in ANY arena to anyone. Lots of good subcomms in that Bueller vid though @stuffinbox “So do you pick your favorite plate or your least favorite,to leave watching the kids?” What? Does Sentient invite the stripper he bangs on a business trip to watch his kids? Why would you even let the other girls meet your kids? Why does everyone think that if you don’t promise monogamy then that means you’ll have 50 women walking in… Read more »

stuffinbox
6 years ago

Ststststutter much

stuffinbox
6 years ago

@Ya
Well you have to have the kids with someone! If you are spinning plates do you choose one of them?Or look for THE ONE?

You do the math the hotter the girl the more options she has for support,sex,orbiters ect.the less likely she is to be happy raising kids.
The more likely ou are to be watching the kids while she has her fun.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” Why does everyone think that if you don’t promise monogamy then that means you’ll have 50 women walking in and out of your house raising your kids for you while you go Charlie Sheen it up in nightclubs skipping their little league games lol I can’t believe how hard it is for people to grasp nuances around here.” Maybe, just maybe some of us have already seen and heard this all before. It’s not grasping nuance that’s the issue. Your defense is basically ” I will be different and do the correct thing always. Trust me “. Lol. ”… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@stringerbell Welcome to 2016 text game lol It’s a nightmare to get plans made. It wasn’t like that 5-10 years ago. In all your interactions you’re the one chasing them (initiating, pushing for the meetup, etc). Gonna be hard to build enough attraction via txt to get them chasing you and wanting a meetup. Phone call with voice might help, game them a bit on the phone then get them to commit to something solid. You might be stuck just pinging them every couple weeks till they happen to be free because it doesn’t sound like you have enough attraction… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus
So does this summarize your position?

comment image

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Anybody here got a count on the ” raised in 2016 ” culture thing yet? ” ..Why are you against men discussing improving their strategies to lower their risk and increase the odds of success with better methods/training/strategy?” I’m not against it. That how you like portraying me. Why are against fathers explaining the possible flaws in your plan? I listed a bunch of them a page ago. I believe a man’s best defense for increasing his odds of success, depending on how an individual defines *success* in the first place, will not involve kids if he is saying he… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

comment image

Yeah sure. that’s what I’ve been telling guys here since I started commenting. Y’all try way too hard, relax and chill and stop trying “

You can see countless posts I’ve made here stating exactly that.

stuffinbox
6 years ago

@Blax

“risk.

Your plan is dependent on multiple women not fucking you up, not just one.

See the risk there?”

Bullseye!

othergrain
othergrain
6 years ago

Mystery is hosting bootcamps in Amsterdam, as well as starting some “bootcamps” for guys looking to become PUA instructors.

https://youtu.be/ZTQ68IPx09c

having a bad day
having a bad day
6 years ago

@Culum Blaximus Forge

PUA?…what’s that?…

uh, hang on a second…

“hey baby! spin around for me and let me see that pretty dress!…”

lol

good luck!

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Scribbler: “So, is it your point that female collective/cooperative behavior is more advanced than male?” No, different. Each mode of thinking fulfils the requirements of their social and reproductive niche. Each has it’s corresponding strengths and weaknesses. A man picks up a weapon and looks for the critical, direct tactical strike that will advance his strategy. The group of women cloak themselves in subterfuge and push in the direction of their feels, and push, and push, relentlessly, over generations. So, applied to things as they are now, men are developing tactics (game) in order achieve their strategic goal (getting laid,… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

@stringerbell – Just to add to YaReally’s point – I did a lot of online dating 2013-2015. In 2013-14 I was seeing around 40-50% flake rate (for first dates from online – ie, we’d make plans to meet and exchange numbers and text for a while before meeting). In 2015 there was a clear decline and climbed well over 50%. I haven’t really done online dating much in 2016 but in the bits and pieces that I have done, I’m looking at more like 70-80%. And it’s become much more common to outright stand you up without even telling you… Read more »

stringerbell
stringerbell
6 years ago

@yareally I hear ya. I feel like I did make a huge emotional impact when I met them, and they were pretty invested, but if I can’t get anything setup that week, they lose that attraction over time. Unfortuantely with work and social shit, alotta times I can’t get em out that first week. And because I live in a city with way more dudes than chicks, a lot of them have insane amount of options from good looking, confident, successful dudes. Anything structurally you’d fix about my text game? I agree I’m always chasing / pushing for the meetup,… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

Lol@HABD

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus “Why are against fathers explaining the possible flaws in your plan?” What?? You actually posted something that contributed to the discussion?? Holy shit, lemme go read it, I must’ve scroll-wheeled through it ’cause I’m just so used to you NOT doing that. Snark aside thanks for FINALLY actually bringing up actual discussion points that we can get into: “Since there is no ” benefit ” in marriage in 2016 ( it is utterly impossible.,..anything pointing to the contrary is unproven anectdote..evidently )” No, I’m sure you got benefits from your marriage, but 1) that wasn’t in 2016 to 2016… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Ya Really: “So a kid who hasn’t been on a bike before falling off means that he can’t be taught and practice learning how to stay on it.”

Q: How many failures are you allowed in learning to ride a bicycle?
A: As many as you need.

Q: How many failures are you allowed in learning to vet and maintain a baby mama without getting sliced and diced?
A: None.

stringerbell
stringerbell
6 years ago

@culum

Yeah I hear ya but I did meet these girls during cold approach. The crazy part is I think I made a massive emotional impact on them. I think they just legit forgot how much fun they had with me and now it looks like I’m chasing since the attraction wore off. It’s fucking hard being a not great looking asian dude in a city with way more men than women and having all the women being career focused feminists

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Ya Really: “NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR ABSENTEE FATHERISM.”

I take it you mean “other than the 2016 women”?

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

Mystery looks and sounds out of it…at 6:55 I Lolllled….he loses his train of thought while his wingman or whatever just keeps rampling.

Cheech and Chong redux.

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

@kfg “Me: The problem with modern marriage is that registering it with the state assigns you a draft number for the meat grinder. So, here’s how to get traditionally married in current times, without registration. YR: Fan-fucking-tastic! Oh. Wait. If I can get married, what if I want kids and to be real father with a white picket fence and everything. How do I do that? Me: Well, ya see, when you have a kid, you are automagically assigned a draft number for the meat grinder. So, ya know, don’t have kids. At least not officially. But then you can’t… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@Culum Struan @stringerbell “And it’s become much more common to outright stand you up without even telling you that she’s not going to make it.” Also notice the way the girls in stringer’s posts are flaking. Half the time if he doesn’t ping them for “are we still on?” they wouldn’t even let him know they can’t make it. And the other half the time the plans they’re flaking on you for are plans that they made AFTER you already had plans discussed lol Like “something came up” like a dinner party or whatever that was just more important than… Read more »

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

@blaximus “Maybe, just maybe some of us have already seen and heard this all before. It’s not grasping nuance that’s the issue. Your defense is basically ” I will be different and do the correct thing always. Trust me “. Lol.” Ive been seeing failed marriages my whole life, does that mean I should throw away the concept of marriage per se? According to this logic I should. “I will be different and do the correct thing always. Trust me. “ This is exactly the logic of a guy like BigAl. But no one here was advising him make sure… Read more »

stringerbell
stringerbell
6 years ago

@yareally thanks for the perspective. all makes sense, it’s just annoying

I’ve watched Julian’s PIMP and SHIFT and paid attention to his hardcore time bridging but it doesn’t fit my personality and honestly he comes across as a needy dancing monkey about it. I’ve tried to imitate him but it’s way too uncalibrated.

Any routines / structure for how you time bridge hardcore?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

Ya Really: Come on, Dude. All you need is practice to learn. Are you telling me you can’t practice? Me: Right. You can’t practice. You’re all in the first time. Grand champion or Stuff on a Rock. Ya Really: I know that. So we need to discuss a way to become a grand champion without practice. Me. *facepalm* ” . . . minimize the baby mama’s ability to slice and dice as much as possible by not signing legal marriage contracts.” Why do you keep bringing up marriage? We’ve been there. We’ve done that. We have stipulated that it’s not… Read more »

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

@yareally @scray @culum

Any experience with pinging them 15 min prior to the date to tell them you are going to be late 10 min? Will have to try this but Im expecting it might at least let you know if they are flaking in advance (sometimes at least?).

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

@kfg

“Mr. T suggests that I have misrepresented the discussion we’ve been having that you suggest we aren’t having because we keep avoiding it even though we’re having it.”

I think we would get along irl pretty well

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Mr. T: “But nobody here gave a shit about him because everyone was too busy clapping to his courage.”

Are we somehow reading different websites but commenting on the same one? The one I was reading the guy was dogpiled with “Don’t do it! You have NOT done your homework.”

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Mr. T: “I think we would get along irl pretty well”

It’s quite possible. Perhaps even likely.

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

@kfg

“Are we somehow reading different websites but commenting on the same one? The one I was reading the guy was dogpiled with “Don’t do it! You have NOT done your homework.””

It’s quite possible. Perhaps even likely.

In all seriousness, Im not a natural, Im not 100% certain my perception of reality is objective.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Im not 100% certain my perception of reality is objective.

“What is reality?” — a whole bunch of people across time

To keep a whole lot of noise down I’ll answer my own question with a quote.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
— Philip K. Dick,

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”

As I am 100% sure that I am not 100% objective, I have devoted some time to trying to ferret out that which does not go away.

Although some things, like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, were obvious bullshit right from the start. I am a natural Red Pill.

But I am not a natural Alpha.

I am Jack of Shadows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_Shadows

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Red herring alert = marriage and absentee father. I’m not talking about either, and have said no such thing. Bad father does not automatically equal absentee. You keep reading into what I actually say purposely, it appears. Lol. You really think you are gonna stand before a judge and recite your kid’s teachers names and the doctors name, and that is gonna help??? Really man? This is what happens when you refuse to hear. ” Gotta counter whateverr blaximus says ” is not a discussion. I can only assume that your inability to understand is due to 1) zero parenting… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“But I can tell you that I know precious few men that came out of support situations with their assholes intact.”

I have brought up that divorce is a cakewalk compared to child support, and he has stipulated to it.

And yet, around we go again.

Is a puzzlement.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Guys, if at all possible, stay far away from court entanglements. You think justice is blind and fair until you get crushed.

Marriage is full of risk in it’s present form and ill-advised, support mandated by the state can be just as bad, especially if you make good money.

Kids are risk for single men. No one gives a damn about you or how you will be affected.

Don’t ever go whistling blindly into a maternity ward.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

@MrT – that is my standard ping text the day of the date. 2-4 hours ahead of time though – 15 min ahead is too late. They’ve flaked by then.

It definitely helps and often reveals a flake. But I’ve had girls who confirmed then and still stood me up without even a text to say so.

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

As an OMG with 2 YSG’s as sons, and two more of a younger age, I tell them that they have access to knowledge that I didn’t have, and encourage them to take advantage of it. And they do. They see the trouble their mom and I have and were it originates from. They will not play by the old set of books because that would be stupid.They’ve seen the results at home and at their friends places. And hey, compared to many of those are families I run a pretty tight ship, but if you ask me is it… Read more »

Vanir (@Vanir85)
6 years ago

“Did I just receive a covert threat from Vanir??” -Blaximus No, an open assurance that an attack on women and their rights will be met with resistance. “I also support the 1st amendment.” -Blaximus Planning criminal activity; kidnapping, isolating and brainwashing – is not covered by 1a. “For the record, I don’t hate women. I love women. Even more than they love themselves.” -Blaximus If you want to force women to change. To have less rights. If you don’t accept who they are and want to be, their liberty and opinions, then you certainly do not love them. “[…] his… Read more »

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

“planned single motherhood is better than dealing with a wannabe-tyrant like you.”
Better for whom? For you of course, but not for your kids, who you conveniently don’t mention. I’ll be honest, I would be better of alone. Being a wannabe-tyrant takes way too much energy that would be better spend elsewhere. But my kids would be worse off. That’s all there is to it.

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

Ah, and this planned single motherhood? Not with my boys as baby daddies.

Colbert
Colbert
6 years ago

@ Vanir,

Shhhhhhhhh. I want you to have this. Now, this is just between us women cus we gotta stick together gurl! Here’s your card. Keep it in your purse at all times. All these evil guys here think I’m a man too BTW. xoxo

comment image

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

Hi Varin, Since you seem to be easily riled, I’ll throw you another bone. My wife has seriously problematic spending habits, and despite us both making well north of 6 figures a year (and she makes more than I do) we never had any money to spare. Around a year ago after yet another unforeseen cc bill on her side of over 5k one month, I had enough. I told her I would either be well off with her in old age or well off without her, but I was not gonna be a poor old man, not with what… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Matatan There has been some debate on the margin about what falls under her allowance and what under the family budget, but overall this is working and her spending is now under control, to the benefit of us all. And how many divorced guys refused to lead by example like this here. This is exactly what I do btw. actually you are even going one more since she is working. Kudos to you and your example of what it takes. Men lead, women follow. if you go into an LTR, make sure you are the dominant party by default, by… Read more »

rugby11
6 years ago
Reply to  Sentient

http://wp.me/p6SXrP-j4X

Scibblerg
Check out the book throwing rocks at the google bus

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

@MrT Most girls are ALWAYS late. I tend to text 5 minutes before and say “running late, meet me in the lobby” that means even if I’m on time I don’t look eager.

But I hate being late and hate people being late without an excuse.

I just got flaked on last week. Girl didn’t show up. I just said: “I waited, we arranged to meet. You didn’t call”

Lots of qualifying and an apology but no attempt to reschedule…so it wasn’t a flake it was a blow off. Oh well.

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
6 years ago

@Blaximus
“But I can tell you that I know precious few men that came out of support situations with their assholes intact.”

Tip-toes into the minefield …

I’m wondering if it would have been worse if those men had been legally married. There would have been child support plus alimony and losing half the dog… Or does child support also include ‘the parent that houses the child’-support also and hence the gutting by the judge?

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

Re: Blax laying some serious truth down. My divorce was whatever, my SMV was going up and many high quality women were expressing sexual interest in me in my late 20s. I realized that my then wife was not the best woman I’d ever meet. It was sad, like the end of any romantic relationship but seriously, I was fine to move on. But my daughter? And the entire vision of myself as a husband, father, provider and protector? This was a core part of my identity and losing it was nothing short of an existential crisis. I mistakenly believed… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

some heartfelt reality on display there Scribblerg. Guys should pay attention. It’s having your very parenthood violated and destroyed that is the issue, not divorce. That’s what paying “support” and “vistitation” means for most men – a slow death of their role as father. I know a couple of guys who have been through this, one of them for over 20 YEARS… constantly back into court… constant battles over more child support… constant battles over which of his 3 kids wanted to live with him, which didn’t and all the shifting dynamics around teens who find they can play the… Read more »

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

“If you are going to have kids, you are going to have to exercise control over the family situation”

This.

And scriblerg, I feel for you man. I don’t even want to imagine what that must be like.

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

Since this thread is in part about OMG’s giving actionable advice to YSG’s, I have another advice with example I told my boys. 6 years ago an acquaintance of mine, and we were pretty close at the time, got dumped by his wife and mother of his then 8 year old son, because she had met a handsome 5 years younger doctor at salsa class (no joke). The guy was devastated and tried in vain for 3,months to get her back. No mercy nor fucks were given by the soon to be ex wife, at least not to him. She… Read more »

Vanir (@Vanir85)
6 years ago

“Ah, and this planned single motherhood? Not with my boys as baby daddies.” – Matatan Then you better pray your male supremacist bullshit won’t rub off on them. ‘Cause using them and losing them is the only reason any sane woman would want to get involved with them, if it has. Tho they may just end up in jail, or dead, if they try any of the dominating bullshit they’ve picked up from you on the wrong woman. “Is that steam coming out of your ears?” – Matatan Nope. If she already hasn’t token off with the kids – for… Read more »

rugby11
6 years ago
Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

So much of this is avoidable…

“salsa class’ – oh boy…

“She had already a daughter ” – a cuck…

“a previous marriage by the way, to a true alpha bad boy” – an alpha widow…

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
6 years ago

@scribblerg “They prey on our desire to be good fathers and to not make waves…” I’m starting to see this in my 16yo now living with her mother… We used to be really, really close and now she’s drifting away. I tell myself I need to let her go forth into the world and grow into a young adult, but without me being much involved. Maybe she’ll be back, maybe she won’t… However, last week one of their equestrian friends, a pretty blond 22yo, one of the good ones, died in a car crash. Stable girl, adoring parents, and she… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Rugby – Rushkoff is wrong. There is nothing so different about this age of technological advancement in the social sense compared to say the impact of the steam engine or the light bulb or alternating electrical current being made widely available. Rushkoff typically misses the basics of economics and instead sees things primarily via the lens of culture which is hopelessly politicized. What’s different today is the pose of social engineers throughout society. Google should have rocks thrown at it, it’s run by leftist dingbat, pseudo-intellectual wannabe elitists who don’t know how to use their power for public good. This… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Vanir

comment image

who enjoys this more?

Matatan
Matatan
6 years ago

@vinar
Yep, that’s steam coming out of your ears. Hilarious.

Vanir (@Vanir85)
6 years ago

“If you are going to have kids, you are going to have to exercise control over the family situation.”
– Sentient

A good advice – for women. With there being misogynist control freaks around (like y’all), women must make plans independent from men, and *always* have an out.

My advice to women, using the discussion here as an example: Never build a bridge you can’t burn, ’cause any relationship with a man you can’t walk away from, kids or no, might turn out to be a trap ready to spring.

Colbert
Colbert
6 years ago

@ Sentient,

He’s prolly jerking to it as we speak – lol

Vanir (@Vanir85)
6 years ago

“He’s prolly jerking to it as we speak – lol”
-Colbert

That’s your thing. Mine is the 2.amendment – which should immediately be involved if any man tries that with any women (without overt consent).

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“My advice to women, using the discussion here as an example: Never build a bridge you can’t burn, ’cause any relationship with a man you can’t walk away from, kids or no, might turn out to be a trap ready to spring.”

@Vanir

Whats your gender?

Vanir (@Vanir85)
6 years ago

“Yep, that’s steam coming out of your ears. Hilarious.” – Matatan Wow. You REALLY want to have triggered me, don’t ya – your practically getting hard at the thought of it 😀 No. Your wife does not need you to survive, and thus had a responsibility to take the kids and leave the moment you revealed yourself as a male supremacist control freak – if she couldn’t do so for their sake, I have little sympathy for any crap she has to endure by staying. And if you make your kids to think of women as inferior, with their broken… Read more »

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