For Better or Worse

betterorworse

Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.

The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.

The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.

Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.

For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.

As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.

Instant Gratification

In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.

It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.

As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.

On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.

The Open Hypergamy Future

I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.

Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?

My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.

People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.

[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.

The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.

The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.

Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.

Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”

We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.

Primary LTRs

The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.

Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.

I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.

The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.

It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.

There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.

We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Tarl
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Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons.

Does she not expect to have and sons or grandsons herself? Does she not care what will happen to them?

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kfg
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“Does she not expect to have and sons or grandsons herself?”

Yes, she does.

“Does she not care what will happen to them?”

Yes, she does. But what she cares happens to them you might not care for.

walawala
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It’s a case of “I’d i knew then what I know now”…I married a woman I shouldn’t have. I overlooked a series of red flags. The divorce was amicable and she married up…an older richer dude. So my instincts were correct all along. The idea of relationships is something i discuss with my plates all the time. Why define what we have? Is say. But a woman’s hypergsmous and contradictory nature demands a definition so that she can shit test it to death. I read so often here and on other discussions when dudes adopt the Red Pill they “hate”… Read more »

bookooball
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I must say, Rollo, you seem to always know what to post in regards to what’s going on in my life. I recently sired my first child(male) with a woman I used your advice to game. A woman that, at the time she met me, fell head-over-heels due to my ZFG attitude and confidence to walk away and tell her no. However, it has been a great learning process for both of us. It didn’t take me long to realize after getting her pregnant that she is determined to fit an alpha peg into a beta hole. Having to constantly… Read more »

The Question
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“There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes.” Our current social order will exist as long as women can call on the state to engage in violence on their behalf against men who… Read more »

rotepilleblog
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This quote about open hypergamy is over the top. I doubt that many women will agree with it. Do u think no woman will ever believe in karma (you get what you give) or some form of balance or fairness?

Colbert
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@ Tari, “Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons.” “Does she not expect to have and sons or grandsons herself? Does she not care what will happen to them?” Her first priority is to herself and every women understands that it is OK to betray her own gender and it’s priorities if and only if the betrayal serves her own personal hyperemic needs/agenda first. Otherwise, she must be loyal to her gender and IT’S overarching hyperemic needs/priorities. The idea that it might come… Read more »

Colbert
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This is also why women obsess so much about “The Patriarchy”. They just naturally assume that we have going on what they have going on – lol. The first rule of the sisterhood is you do not talk about the sisterhood………..

John Smith
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Rollo, I have been reading you for four years now and I have been waiting and waiting and waiting for you to say something as strong as you did in your last two paragraphs of this posting. I’ve been pissed off time and again when you stop at the observation level and don’t take things to their next logical step which is to suggest things be repaired societally. I hope you continue to turn your efforts in this direction. An intellect like yours, pointed in the direction of these problems could start as many revolutions of thought and action as… Read more »

Colbert
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@ John Smith,

“Society needs a return to the patriarchy in a big way. Please continue down this path!”

Shhhhhh! We’ll discuss all of this at the next secret patriarchy meeting.

Colbert
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This is for all of Rollo’s female readers. It will get them past the Patriarchy.

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Jonathan Guerra
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“The minute you commit to a woman she takes it for granted” Then take it from her the moment she does. If she can never find her sucker OR her stud, doesn’t she have to rethink her shit? Maybe she’ll never want to marry as long as she can get attention, but if all of us sent the lot of these whores back to the proverbial kitchen, maybe they’d realize once and for all that it was compliant men who gave her the safety net. They can cluck all they want about Open Hypergamy. But I doubt she’d keep clucking… Read more »

alex
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Rollo, please edit that post to bring up the acronyms after the first time the word they correspond to is used. It’s a pain to have to scroll through the text to understand what pLTR and YSG are

Yollo Comanche
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YSG means Young Single Guy

pLTR means primary Long Term Relationship

alex
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> This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm. I personally think the… Read more »

alex
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@ Yollo Comanche

I understood.. after scrolling down the text a couple of times.

Dwalin
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Saracen III
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“There must come a point where men …”

When the marriage rate dips to 35%,
when strong men simply refuse to have wives or LTGs of any stripe,
when 15% of men, strong or otherwise, hand-grenade their finances
or do indefinite jail-time rather than pay coerced child support,
when single mothers are universally looked upon with quiet contempt,

only then will women as a voting bloc contemplate the necessary Changes.

One: Alimony ceases.
Two: Individual Child Support ceases.
Three: State Child Support conditional on sterilisation.

Pinelero
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Interesting… some women advocate for 50/50 shared custody (leading women for shared parenting group), but out of a sense of fairness to fathers and of course “for the kids”. For this other hypergamous woman Emma Johnson to advocate for 50/50 out of just pure solipsism (she got her sperm and now a better provider) may be one way to get supporters and for this to get more widespread acceptance. Of course once it’s in a woman’s benefit they will want it.

Playdontpay
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To quote RT himself “demonstrate don’t explicate”. Refuse to marry unless the Laws and family courts change marriage into a “fair deal”. (Don’t hold your breath). Refuse to date single mothers (pump and dump or FB only). Don’t live with a woman it’s too restrictive, it limits your options and drains your time and energy that are limited resources. Don’t be afraid to objectify them, the current crop of females have CHOSEN to become the sex objects of Alphas! Never forget this it’s what they want. Love hypergamously and opportunistically as they do, now you know the truth about female… Read more »

Matatan
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@Pinelero on September 26, 2016 at 3:24 am

I think both groups of woman have the same motivation for a shared custody, it’s just that Emma Johnson is frank about it and the others are not. Their hamster still convinces them of their noble intentions whereas miss Johnson no longer needs that.

Andy
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“There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”

So, I guess that means marry your daughters off to an Alpha dude before she hits 25.

How many of you OMG’s are going to do that?

Andy
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“So, I guess that means marry your daughters off to an Alpha dude before she hits 25.
How many of you OMG’s are going to do that?”

Sorry for the snark, but my point is that this is long game. It’s going to take a few generations. The first step is to get Dads back to raising their kids. This is what the YSGs are trying to do…

Sentient
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Andy “How many of you OMG’s are going to do that?” Come now, do try and keep up. recall just a few entries ago, in response to the cry that “no 25YO girl will even consider marriage” that I said my 24YO daughter has been to a couple of weddings this summer and half a dozen engagement parties. I believe SJF noted similar. I’d have no problem with any of my 4 daughters marrying, and would encourage it IF IT IS THE RIGHT GUY. There are tremendous benefits to marrying young and having kids young. I married at 23 and… Read more »

Matatan
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“There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.” While I agree with that statement, I have a hard time imagining a way that doesn’t include some level of violence. I don’t expect parliamentarians abolish divorce laws and reinstate patriarchy, they would get kicked out at the next election by the offended female vote. Ah but we are going to take away the women’s vote by parliamentary vote as well? Not gonna happen. We will have to vote with our feet, money and dicks. And once every four years, vote for an as… Read more »

Sentient
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Matanan

““There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”
While I agree with that statement, I have a hard time imagining a way that doesn’t include some level of violence”

Don’t forget though that the end of the FI system is a lie, it is collapse in actuality. Much like the Soviet system, it will end not with a big bang but collapse under its own weight.

But there must be men ready to pick it up from their. I applaud Rollo’s Call to Patriarchy.

Sentient
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PlayDontPay

“With things as they stand why wouldn’t they ride the CC for as long as possible all trying to get commitment from the top 5% of men? ”

Because as long as possible is really a short ride for the vast majority of women and they never even see the top 20%. If I had a dollar for every late 20’s girl who told me “all the good men are taken (married) or gay”… Nature is brutal and in the end always correct.

Two very different riding experiences…

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/12/article-2073197-0F26D21700000578-164_233x669.jpg

http://images.designntrend.com/data/images/full/17932/passed-out-woman.jpg

Andy
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“How are they trying to “raise their kids” when they are advocating for cuckoldry and seeing them only 50% of the time? Or less?” No, lol. They’re just saying that there is a decent chance that this will happen even if you’re a pimp. Not advocating for it. Personally I think that the chances of that happening are probably lower than what YaReally thinks, but it doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t change the goal of the discussion. “Raise your kids in the image you want… gets back to my point to HABD on culture starting and ending with YOU, within… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“I predict it’s the next stage for our society bent on following the feminine imperative to make it a social convention (through media, shaming tactics, etc.) that “genetic paternity” is irrelevant . . .” Inheritance will be matrilineal. “* No more shared child custody and no more paternal visitation rights after divorce.” There will be no paternal visitation or divorce, because there will be no formal state of marriage outside the upper caste. Women will own the house. Men will not be a legal resident, they will have their own apartment elsewhere. They will visit women in their homes entirely… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“The first step is to get Dads back to raising their kids. This is what the YSGs are trying to do…” No. This is what PUAs got into their heads to do a couple of threads ago when I delineated how they could get married outside of the system. They are in a state of sudden excitement that it could similarly be possible to be a father. But unlike the case of unregistered marriage where they listened to the nuts and bolts of the idea, they are “demanding” nuts and bolts answers to parenthood, yet refuse to listen to the… Read more »

Sentient
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Andy

Do you have a daughter? What will you do? Have you thought about it? I’m curious what your thoughts are on this.

But this ” Not advocating for it” is just false. All of the scenarios imply that the mother has the freedom to lay other dudes (i.e. potential pregnancy) and there was an explicit suggestion to “break up” at year 6 and have her out seeing what she was missing.

Andy
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“Answers being provided by men who have the field experience of being fathers, which the PUAs lack.”

What answers?

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . there was an explicit suggestion to “break up” at year 6 and have her out seeing what she was missing.”

Q.E.D. Men will think it was their idea.

Sentient
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KFG

“Boys will be spun off to men’s housing at adolescence.”

Maybe this is not such a bad thing… as long as the queers are kept away…

Sentient
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KFG

“Men will think it was their idea.”

You are spot on… the more bleating from PUA on this topic the more it underscores that the Alpha Fux Pussy Uber Alles in extrimis is just a prong of the FI.

Those Alpha Farms of 2045 ain’t going to fill themselves…

Agent p
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I see the need for the “hamster window” to be considered in discussions like this. I propose that it’s parallel to the Overton window only it applies to what extent hypergamy will be discussed in the public discourse not political issues (yes there is overlap for sure)

Andy
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“Do you have a daughter? What will you do? Have you thought about it? I’m curious what your thoughts are on this.” I don’t. If I did I would probably raise her to respect men and help her understand what ultimate happiness would be for her. (have kids early with the right guy) Unfortunately from what I’ve seen society has a bigger influence on kids than parents. Maybe I haven’t seen any good parents, but my generation is seriously fucked up compared to yours. Just a scroll through my facebook, and 3/4 of the girls are single Moms or single… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Unfortunately from what I’ve seen society has a bigger influence on kids than parents.”

The schools are designed, by psychologists, to affect a transfer of authority away from parents (and particularly fathers) and onto teachers and school administrators.

And that’s the good news.

The bad news is that the current crop of primary schoolers are being trained to have authority over their parents. Start preparing your public confessions to the Cultural Revolution.

http://img.news.sina.com/china/p/2011/0125/U43P5029T2D357376F26DT20110125173800.jpg

Klem
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I know I’ll get a lot of hate from this, but would what the chick in the article proposes be inherently bad? Like, you meet a girl who you screen for good parental skills/agreeability, emphasizing this vs her hotness/kinkiness etc. You have a kid together, knowing that you might break-up around the 10year mark or before, probably because of sexual boredom. You break up amicably, stay friends and have the kid stay with each other 50% of the time, while agreeing on some basic principles to raise him (so that he does not get 2 different parenting styles in each… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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“….we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.” Can men? How many men are addicted to a constant stream of top-tier women performing sexual acts on screen? I’m not shaming or pearl-clutching here, I’ll enjoy the occasional porn as much as the next bloke but all of these things matter. How many more men would be more inspired to do something with flesh-and-blood women, learn how they tick, develop LEVERAGE with them, if the much-easier option of staying home, jerking it to whatever kind of woman you want, then playing a combat simulator or chatting… Read more »

Sentient
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Andy

“but my generation is seriously fucked up compared to yours. ” This is all part of the lie though. Both my parents and my wife’s are divorced, and hers divorced when she was young. Gen X have huge divorce parent rates (and I believe we are technically the same generation BTW) thanks to Boomers chasing feels and the Silents giving up completely…

In all my kids classes for the past 20 years (and counting) about 1/4 to 1/3 are divorced.

Sentient
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Klem

” while agreeing on some basic principles to raise him (so that he does not get 2 different parenting styles in each homes).”

So you are going to get her next Baby daddy’s agreement to this part too?

Forge the Sky
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“I know I’ll get a lot of hate from this, but would what the chick in the article proposes be inherently bad?”

Ok now y’all are just baiting kfg.

“They will think it was their….”

Forge the Sky
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@klem

The first thing I noticed about the woman’s plan was that it requires the full commitment of two men for each woman for it to work. She would find the plan a bit less appealing if man #1 got remarried and had more kids, diluting his ability to care for the first batch; and then man #2 was ALSO on his second marriage and she had to help care for HIS first batch while hers is away.

Anonymous Reader
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Entertainment is on board with movies promoting hypergamy, both covert and open. A commenter at Dalrock’s dredged up three: The Architect on IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3180912/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 Price Check: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1845849/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_24 The husband in this fiml is ignorant in the end, happily raising another man’s baby. In One Hot Summer http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1422201/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2 — it is not clear who the father is but the Beta dutifully raises it. AF-BB and possibly AF-BC on Hallmark. What’s on Oxygen, Lifetime and Oprah? Dunno but given the way vampire porn took off a few years back…not to mention 50 SOG…we can expect this idea to be firmly rooted in… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“There are strong men here, and elsewhere. But we’re the outliers. We’re like an aristocracy trying to rally an army from a peasantry ravaged by disease.” One of the ideas I have put forward that the YSPUAs find unpalatable is that Joe the Plumber is already hosed. The war has been fought. He has already lost and been occupied. The only way forward for Joe is resistance, counter revolution. It will take generations and there will be heavy losses. The adaptation route (joining Vichy, as I put it in the previous thread, just before Rollo put up this article) leads… Read more »

Andy
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“In all my kids classes for the past 20 years (and counting) about 1/4 to 1/3 are divorced.” I would say a plurality of girls I went to high school with are single moms and never got married (that I know of). About a tie between still married to baby daddy and single no kids. Then a small % are divorced with kids. These are college educated white UMC/MC girls from a 55/45 liberal/conservative town. Most of my friends parents are divorced. Of the one’s I know that are still married all are unhappy (by my definition) and sleep in… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Ok now y’all are just baiting kfg.”

While individual and small groups of outlier men look at the board and try to work out their next move, the collective of women is setting up checkmate in 10.

constrainedlocus
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“There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.” I wonder whether this “correction” is not already starting to take place? Not in an overt, active, public or verbal “dressing down” sense that one would imagine from some drill sergeant, but a more deliberate, calm, passive and almost indifferent response by men. Indeed a growing number of men are no longer silent about how poorly they are being regarded and treated by women and by the state, by teachers, by school administrators, by the corporation at work, by the corporation as consumers, and… Read more »

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@Forge the Sky I noticed the same assumption about the “single mother dream for my daughter” story. She has to find one schlub to deceive first, then find her AF with the expectation that he will be ok with her kids around half the time. Of course it’s assumed that the AF will be single, it isn’t even thought of that he might also have kids and she will have to deal with his half the time, as well as the baby mama drama, etc. Makes me lulz… Such narcissicm and sense of entitlement, fully expecting to just dump the… Read more »

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KFG

” the collective of women is setting up checkmate in 10.”

But what do you call a woman who gets everything she ever wanted?

http://www.tvparty.com/vgifs11/Bob72.gif

Unhappy.

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But we do have to get past this stage… LOL

http://i.imgur.com/VJ17TbF.gif

kfg
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This didn’t happen . . .

http://kingtutone.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/khafrepyramid.jpg

. . . because men were satisfied with this . . .

comment image

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“Sentient” Come now, do try and keep up. recall just a few entries ago, in response to the cry that “no 25YO girl will even consider marriage” that I said my 24YO daughter has been to a couple of weddings this summer and half a dozen engagement parties. Actually “Sentient” offered an unverifiable anecdote in response to my observation: I have a difficult time believing that any UMC girly will want to marry before the age of 29.999 because “collecting experiences” and “establishing career”, i.e. carousel riding. No one said what “Sentient” claimed. That’s just another of his strawman, one… Read more »

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“If This Goes On only the religious and UMC will be marrying . . . men in the working class and lower middle class . . . just aren’t inclined to marry, it appears.”

Oh. Hey! That’s the century old model.

Fancy that.

Sentient
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Anonymous

Try less reading and more comprehension… Note the stats you cite for 25 and under are not nil, as a start…

Atticus
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As a 22 year OMG (now divorced and 54 years old), I can tell you these last three years have been one long journey. From being so angry I almost beat the fuck out of a guy in a Home Depot parking lot the first Christmas Eve I wasn’t with my four kids (it was one week after I caught her cheating and moved out) to banging a 22 year Titled Kilt bartender (Thanks YaReally!). I read Married Red Pill regularly. They have a plan and it seems to work. The problem is you have to be Cal Fuckin Ripken… Read more »

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Forge – nice vid link. I see a lot of that all around me, starting with the toddlers carrying tablets. Sure, there’s plenty of men who are content with the illusion of a harem, just as women are content with the illusion of unlimited male affirmation. There’s a big difference, of course: visual porn is denegrated even now in the wider society, and in the religious subcommunities it’s equated with cheating or adultery. Beta orbiters? No big deal. Ditto women’s preferred form of porn, textual, no big deal. Just more of the catering to the FI. All in favor of… Read more »

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Forge The first thing I noticed about the woman’s plan was that it requires the full commitment of two men for each woman for it to work. She would find the plan a bit less appealing if man #1 got remarried and had more kids, diluting his ability to care for the first batch; and then man #2 was ALSO on his second marriage and she had to help care for HIS first batch while hers is away. Doesn’t matter what the man wants. Under the child-support model of “marriage” the resources follow the child, and her plan assumes the… Read more »

justinbuttrick
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After reading that article Rollo linked, I had to go over there and post this after she claimed that this setup wasn’t deceptive at all: Sounds like such a perfect dream setup… that’s of course if you leave out the sense of entitlement, the hypocrisy, cruelty, and pure selfishness of it all. Yes, the plan absolutely does require deception, as you stated above: “….. her goal is for her daughter, who is now a teenager, is to grow up and have a child with a great man who will be a great co-parent, then END THE RELATIONSHIP and find a… Read more »

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Rollo, Good stuff as usual. Pay attention to the comments ( as you usually seem to do ) and notice the prevalent pattern that I’ve seen as the norm. The last sentences of the op will fly over most commenters head’s at light speed. The work. The responsibility. The understanding. The BURDEN. As an ” OMG ” that has virtually given up on trying to help out ( see Andy’s ” what answers ” comment above ) because there is a closed mindset that is evidently pervasive. This is illustrative of the larger problem at hand. Maintaining strong frame over… Read more »

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Ultimately, a lot of the problems we have in society today (which aren’t limited to the relationships between men and women) exist because we’re a tremendously wealthy civilization. The reason we have an absolutely insane family structure and that, as a society, we kowtow to the lunatics is because we’re wealthy enough to survive the consequences. While individuals might be smart about such things it is general human nature to squander advantages in whatever form they take. We do it because we can afford it. Personally, I expect marriage, family and the relationship between the sexes to revert to what… Read more »

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Me

“If This Goes On only the religious and UMC will be marrying . . . men in the working class and lower middle class . . . just aren’t inclined to marry, it appears.”

kfg

Oh. Hey! That’s the century old model.

Could you support this assertion with some data?
A time series of % married vs. % never married sorted by income starting in, say, 1890 to 1910 running up to around 2014 would be pretty good evidence.

Because I’m sure you aren’t just making stuff up for a cool one-liner.

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atticus, that’s another brick the wall for sure, but I don’t think it’s peak Tranny or peak Blank Slate. It’s not even peak madness.

There’s an old story by Robert Heinlein back in the 50’s called “All You Zombies” that comes to mind. Truth is stranger than fiction, though.

Sentient
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Colbert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueTaJO0pWg

To go along with the Woman Card… any “man” that votes Hillary, well he was asking for what comes next…

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“There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now.”

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Atticus

Maybe men being ” fat lazy fucks ” has negative consequences? Maybe negative consequences being marriage or ltr’s?

Maybe men shouldn’t become fat lazy fucks for a multitude of reasons?

Maybe?

Fred Flange and his Free Speech for the Dumb
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I refer the honorable gentlemen to the reply I gave some moments ago (actually threads ago in the Best of): Andy asks if some of us have daughters. I do have a sproglette of my own, not much younger than the one parented by the Proprietor. And I still don’t know what to tell her on this subject. I have been t her about the modern SMP, in order to pump WHAT IS into her head. That I can do. But beyond that? The prospects are not good out there. I have noted, as sfer did, the way the Swedes… Read more »

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Blaximus
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Ugh… above should read ” negative consequences OUTSIDE of marriage and ltr’s…..”.

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“Sentient”

Try less reading and more comprehension… Note the stats you cite for 25 and under are not nil, as a start…

I know how to read a graph and estimate the central tendency for data sets & data subsets. You too butthurt to think clearly?

Or just not sentient enough for this ride?

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@Blax

“Ya think maybe…”

Absolutely.

Then again, a lot of fit, successful guys (like me) end up divorced because of lack of knowledge and her feelz. Not everyone had the RP role models you were blessed with.

Then there are guys who marry and figure, “well, I provide a roof. No need to work on me.” He gets fat. She gets fat. It one big happy fat family. Until she’s unhappy.

That’s why I said boys need to be taught Red Pill AND game.

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Anonymous

I know you like to duck questions but let’s try again – is the marriage rate in the data you cite for 25 and under zero or not?

Do you know what sentient even means? i don’t think so.

kfg
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@AR: “Could you support this assertion with some data?” The model is not data. It is “papers.” Papers on matriarchal societies. They begin emanating from the sociology department of Columbia University circa 100 years ago. The first “public” paper was Margaret Mead’s report on Samoa, which is almost pure propaganda, and which she was cultured (i.e. grown in a petri dish) to produce. Most of the current papers are originally written in Chinese. You may need to visit Columbia to read English translations, and the academic papers being currently written in commentary. If you want to understand the plan you… Read more »

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Dude: hey man, look at the stats. We’re all fucked. Blaximus: well hold on… we’re not all fucked. Do you live by stats in life? Dude: Lol. Man, the stats can’t be disputed. Ever. Blaximus: but what if I said that I don’t see the same things that the stats point to, or if I said that there’s an underlying reason for those numbers. Dude: lol. That’s all anecdotal man. Blaximus: so you just look at stats that justify your pov/mindset as way to give up without gaining a wider and deeper understanding? Dude: lol. Blaximus: so outside forces play… Read more »

atticus
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BTW Rollo, you’re artwork is consistently top notch and on point. Kudos.

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Fred Flanging it: One canard both wealthysinglemommy’s Johnson and you guys here need to ditch is the notion that kids are OK with parents splitting up. THEY ARE NOT. Cosign + 1 gigapoints. If there was a disease, a germ or virus spread sickness, that did to children and teens what divorce does — a massive nationwide research program would be well underway to find a cure. It would be like the old polio research plus AIDS research rolled into one. It hurts them at all ages. I remember college-aged men and women dreading Christmas and Spring break because that’s… Read more »

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“Sentient” Anonymous I know you like to duck questions but let’s try again – is the marriage rate in the data you cite for 25 and under zero or not? What difference does that make? Do you understand what “central tendency for a data subset” means? Or are you just too butthurt to actually read and understand a simple sentence? Do you know what sentient even means? i don’t think so. Too butthurt to think? Yeah, looks that way. I was going to bring up the fact that age-at-first-marriage varies geographically and therefore culturally, but that’s clearly too complicated for… Read more »

theallmightysynapse
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Hey Rollo, long-time reader, first-time commenter. I feel like this post quite eloquently captured the discontentment I feel over how Western society has become enthralled with social media and its consequences on intersexual dynamics. Having just turned 28 and starting grad school after five years out of school, seeing how these undergrads behave around campus is bizarrely surreal. You could swear their phones were as naturally an appendage as an arm or a leg. Conversation about what’s happening on Facebook or Instagram is the norm. Nobody wants to engage anyone in any sort of meaningful conversation. People’s attentions are stolen… Read more »

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Monogamy is dead , Jim. Regardless of the social machinations that have brought us to this point, we arrive at the conclusion succinctly stated by Rev Lawrence Shannon over 20 years ago; “A man possessing a woman exclusively as his own personal sex kitten is delusional. There are always other men, and sometimes women”. That phrase spells doom in the hearts of men in committed relationships. It should. I came to understand the Predatory Female quote above via my last LTRs friends. I tried to do the “honest man” thing by dating the LTR exclusively, but her pals kept trying… Read more »

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Atticus Then again, a lot of fit, successful guys (like me) end up divorced because of lack of knowledge and her feelz. Not everyone had the RP role models you were blessed with. To his credit, Blaximus is providing himself as a role model to young men. Then there are guys who marry and figure, “well, I provide a roof. No need to work on me.” He gets fat. She gets fat. It one big happy fat family. Until she’s unhappy. That is “provider game”. It worked pretty good until the invention of men’s-fault divorce in the 1970’s. That’s why… Read more »

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> How many more men would be more inspired to do something with flesh-and-blood women, learn how they tick, develop LEVERAGE with them, if the much-easier option of staying home, jerking it to whatever kind of woman you want, then playing a combat simulator or chatting about stuff on Reddit didn’t exist? As a man , I say this : If I could meet a flesh-and-blood woman who has not ridden 10-s of cocks before me, and **still has something she can offer me that no other men had [sic.] from her** , then I will find learning how she… Read more »

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Anonymous

You keep ducking a simple question?

Can you answer my question or do you just want to keep embarrassing yourself?

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kfg
The model is not data. It is “papers.” Papers on matriarchal societies.

They begin emanating from the sociology department of Columbia University circa 100 years ago.

The first “public” paper was Margaret Mead’s report on Samoa, which is almost pure propaganda, and which she was cultured (i.e. grown in a petri dish) to produce.

That’s different from what you previously wrote.

I’ll agree that the model we are seeing peeks of now has been building for some time, a century or so is reasonable.

Plus I’ll see your Margie Mead and raise you a Marija Gimbutas.

kfg
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“hey man, look at the stats. We’re all fucked.”

Just to be clear, and I find I have to reiterate to stay clear, what I have said is, “Joe the Plumber is fucked.”

The outliers are merely between a rock and a hard place.

I note that the man, between a rock and a very hard place indeed, who shouted, “C’mon you sons-of-bitches, do you want to live forever!, ” . . . lived.

Atticus
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@AR My kids were B13, G15, G17, B19 when I had proof of the infidelity and moved out. I don’t have studies but I read a ton on this before I acted. There is a lot of anecdotal stuff on kids that wished their parents would’ve split and not put them through years of Passive/Agrgressive fighting as well as the kids that are devastated. As a man all you can do is make the best decision for all involved. For me, I didn’t want my sons seeing me hang around a cheating whore . For my daughters I didn’t want… Read more »

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allmightysynapse, YaReally has some thoughts on this, in previous threads, unfortunately you have to wade through a lot of other discussion to see them. Summary: Text game is lame and getting lamer. However, actual physical approach is now even more valuable because fewer men are doing it, so get used to cold approaches day or night. Mystery method never goes out of style because it’s fundamental. You can test this pretty easily in any off campus coffee / juice / lunch joint. Even girls who seemingly have their eyeballs superglued to their phones will do a quick look or glance… Read more »

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“Sentient”

Anonymous
You keep ducking a simple question?
Can you answer my question or do you just want to keep embarrassing yourself?

Answered twice so far, same way each time. If you are so butthurt that you have to keep acting like a child, go for it.

Your whining won’t get in the way of the discussions the men are having.

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@alex Here’s my post describing pLTRs/oLTRs/etc and the mechanics behind them in more depth: http://yareallyarchive.com/2015/8/#comment-rationalmale-114069 @Rollo “understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace” To be clear: I’m not “frustrated” with it, I’m just observing it and think it’s absurd/silly, but there’s no “fuck these entitled bitches!!!” or “OH NO THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!” behind it lol These are just objective observations of the changing field, like a scientist observing that mice are responding to different stimulus and what effects that’s having on the colony. But around here the assumption seems to be that if… Read more »

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@AR

I read Dalrock too. Fuck those guys bitching about Game. The Bble clearly spelled it out. Thats how boys were taught Red Pill. That’s all out the window with these “Christians”.

Even the 2,000 year old rock thanks the Roman church has been poisoned.

Boys need a Rational Male class as part as Sex Education in High School and a steady diet of Julien vdeos at home.

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atticus, don’t see how you could have done anything different. In your case, the damage to the kids is what it is, but could have been much worse. “Cut your losses” in other words, which is what you did. I have a friend who divorced his wife after DNA testing showed the second child wasn’t his. He obtained almost full custody of the first child. Haven’t seen him in years, so I don’t know how things turned out, but there was no other path for him. He wasn’t going to stand still for being cuckolded. But. Between 60% and 70%… Read more »

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@AR: “That’s different from what you previously wrote.” I have written of both the model and how the model is being implemented. They are obviously related, but not the same thing. An example of how the model is being implemented is men being saddled with literally impossible debt by the Family Court. It is an overt transference of wealth and property from men to women. Data is hard to come by here and we often need to rely on the anecdotal reports of men, because much of the information is a legally protected secret. “I’ll agree that the model we… Read more »

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Atticus I read Dalrock too. Fuck those guys bitching about Game. The Bble clearly spelled it out. Thats how boys were taught Red Pill. That’s all out the window with these “Christians”. Heh. Truth. Proverbs has plenty of reality about women, from the “My husband has gone and I have fancy sheets on the bed” to “better to live in a tent on the roof than in a fancy house with a contentious woman”. Those guys, we know who they are, are just neo-Victorians who still want a Pure Girl they can put on a pedestal. Trouble with men like… Read more »

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What is actually hard to relate to is the recognition of male influences I’ve had growing up, and then the outright rejection of those same very basic principles when I attempt to share them.

Fear and capitulation is never a strategy that will succeed.

Fight or die.

But don’t complain.

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@sjf- how is not letting your daughters date in high school preparing them for their future happiness? It seems to do so for you now.

Atticus
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@YaReally “None of you have provided anything unique.” I told my boys, you marry, don’t expect cash support from me. I’ll help you out if there is no marriage but marry and you will inherit nothing. I won’t give away another part of my fortune to the girl that gives you the best blow job (in those words). My son meets a girl in college who’s parents (divorced) are worth five times me. I told him I was good with him marrying her unless he signed a prenup. I’m auditioning for the new show, “Gold Digging Men” Loading...

rugby11
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Blaximus
I would add
Don’t criticize complain or condemn.
http://www.robin-baker.com/

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YaReally @Anonymous Reader I’ve come to the unfortunate realization that while this place is great for diagnosis, actual progress probably won’t be made here. Too many egos and too much dick-waving to even LET a simple discussion that questions socially conditioned beliefs. But I have some ideas in mind for when I have more free time down the road. 😛 As frustrating as it can be, this place is way better now than it was back when the old feminists like Bytes and LyingTree were posting their tl;dr rehashing of 1970’s crap. Not to mention some previous situations that were… Read more »

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