For Better or Worse

betterorworse

Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.

The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.

The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.

Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.

For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.

As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.

Instant Gratification

In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.

It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.

As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.

On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.

The Open Hypergamy Future

I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.

Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?

My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.

People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.

[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.

The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.

The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.

Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.

Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”

We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.

Primary LTRs

The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.

Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.

I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.

The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.

It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.

There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.

We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.

1,153 comments

  1. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons.

    Does she not expect to have and sons or grandsons herself? Does she not care what will happen to them?

  2. “Does she not expect to have and sons or grandsons herself?”

    Yes, she does.

    “Does she not care what will happen to them?”

    Yes, she does. But what she cares happens to them you might not care for.

  3. It’s a case of “I’d i knew then what I know now”…I married a woman I shouldn’t have.

    I overlooked a series of red flags. The divorce was amicable and she married up…an older richer dude.

    So my instincts were correct all along. The idea of relationships is something i discuss with my plates all the time.

    Why define what we have? Is say. But a woman’s hypergsmous and contradictory nature demands a definition so that she can shit test it to death.

    I read so often here and on other discussions when dudes adopt the Red Pill they “hate” women.

    Anger is one of the stages of grief. It’s important to mourn he loss of your Blue Pill beliefs thst kept you in denial and held you back.

    But the concept of relationships has been redefined and social media has shaped that.

    But guys can play along too. Use social media to post alpha photos and activities. Use the tools to meet your goals.

    Get orbiters too…I have female friends who form a kind of orbiter group. That increases my value. It’s pre selection.

    When YaReally and I recently opened the discussion around orbiters it seemed to spark an series of responses of the sad inevitability of being marginalised.

    Understanding a woman’s need for orbiters is a way to differentiate yourself.

    I’ve banged hot women with orbiters who use these guys for the things they don’t get from me…mainly being an emotional tampon.

  4. I must say, Rollo, you seem to always know what to post in regards to what’s going on in my life. I recently sired my first child(male) with a woman I used your advice to game. A woman that, at the time she met me, fell head-over-heels due to my ZFG attitude and confidence to walk away and tell her no.

    However, it has been a great learning process for both of us. It didn’t take me long to realize after getting her pregnant that she is determined to fit an alpha peg into a beta hole. Having to constantly assuage her insecurities while maintaining the frame of the relationship isn’t an easy task when you have everyone around you constantly trying to convince her that she “deserves more” from me. Fortunately, commandment 16 is the reason she is still here. Honestly, a part of me is afraid to lose her, not because I have oneitis, but because I want to raise my son in a stable, two parent household.

    The moment you commit to a woman, she will take it for granted.
    The moment you get a woman pregnant, she will start using the child as leverage to gain frame.

    All you can do combat it is lift, swat away shit tests, and remain as stoic as possible… and keep fucking her good.

    I’ve been slowly refining my thoughts and actions in a way to allow her an Illusion of control while in fact she is becoming more and more dependant on me so she cant easily leave when she throws a hissy fit.

    I know in a few years her insecurities will surface a desire to marry me, and at that point I may lose everything I built because I told her from the get-go I don’t believe in marriage… I will stick to my guns. Refusing to marry is my saving grace for maintaining frame with dread and subconsciously she knows it. If she does decide to leave, I will have no one to blame but myself, but seeing my son part time will be 10x better than submitting to a life of nagging misery and cuckoldry.

    The elite have truly created the perfect storm to destroy the family. This is a zero sum game with loaded dice and the only way to win is not play, or break the rules.

  5. “There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes.”

    Our current social order will exist as long as women can call on the state to engage in violence on their behalf against men who challenge it. As I wrote in my post Statism and LARPing, feminism is merely a form of LARPing where we are forced to pretend because we have a gun pointed at our heads.

    https://anarchistnotebook.com/2016/08/05/statism-and-larping/

    The moment the state’s gun is removed from the equation, the changes you speak of can occur. Either that, or men become willing to violently resist the state when it attempts to enforce the FI – I find this approach neither practical nor very likely to occur for the moment.

    We are quickly running out of ways in which the FI can use the state to coerce men into serving its whims. The only was men can remain free of the FI in this regard is by being celibate, not getting married, and/or not having children.

    At some point the FI must and will resort to outright state violence to force men to cooperate. How that would look or what kind of legislation would arrange this, I don’t know.

    Frankly, that is where I see things going if the current trajectory does not change.

  6. This quote about open hypergamy is over the top. I doubt that many women will agree with it. Do u think no woman will ever believe in karma (you get what you give) or some form of balance or fairness?

  7. @ Tari,

    “Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons.”

    “Does she not expect to have and sons or grandsons herself? Does she not care what will happen to them?”

    Her first priority is to herself and every women understands that it is OK to betray her own gender and it’s priorities if and only if the betrayal serves her own personal hyperemic needs/agenda first. Otherwise, she must be loyal to her gender and IT’S overarching hyperemic needs/priorities. The idea that it might come at the expense of men (even the one’s in her life) is foreign and alien to her since her hindbrain naturally objectifies men as utilities to be tooled and exploited. Not being judgmental, bitter or cynical here – lol. It’s just the way women evolved. Men need to understand, accept and come to terms with this fact. This is why women women are so quick to accuse men of objectifying them – lol. It’s simple projection and blame shifting which falls into the DSM criteria of cluster “H” traits 🙂

  8. This is also why women obsess so much about “The Patriarchy”. They just naturally assume that we have going on what they have going on – lol. The first rule of the sisterhood is you do not talk about the sisterhood………..

  9. Rollo, I have been reading you for four years now and I have been waiting and waiting and waiting for you to say something as strong as you did in your last two paragraphs of this posting. I’ve been pissed off time and again when you stop at the observation level and don’t take things to their next logical step which is to suggest things be repaired societally. I hope you continue to turn your efforts in this direction. An intellect like yours, pointed in the direction of these problems could start as many revolutions of thought and action as your Red Pill/Hypergamy stuff has. We can only learn male female dynamics so much. That will only carry us part of the way. Society needs a return to the patriarchy in a big way. Please continue down this path!

  10. @ John Smith,

    “Society needs a return to the patriarchy in a big way. Please continue down this path!”

    Shhhhhh! We’ll discuss all of this at the next secret patriarchy meeting.

  11. “The minute you commit to a woman she takes it for granted”

    Then take it from her the moment she does.

    If she can never find her sucker OR her stud, doesn’t she have to rethink her shit?

    Maybe she’ll never want to marry as long as she can get attention, but if all of us sent the lot of these whores back to the proverbial kitchen, maybe they’d realize once and for all that it was compliant men who gave her the safety net.

    They can cluck all they want about Open Hypergamy. But I doubt she’d keep clucking if no one ever marries her and men keep duping her and dumping her worthless ass.

    On the contrary. She’ll realize she’s been a fucking fool her whole life.

    It’d be nice if she was just a walking fuck doll. But she’s not, and to call her that even though she’s given it up before is a gross oversimplification at best, wishful thinking at worst.

    A fuckdoll doesn’t have a nature. We men have had the power to refuse all along.

  12. Rollo, please edit that post to bring up the acronyms after the first time the word they correspond to is used. It’s a pain to have to scroll through the text to understand what pLTR and YSG are

  13. > This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.

    I personally think the end plan is further than that. Here’s a copy of a comment I made on the redpill subreddit:

    I predict it’s the next stage for our society bent on following the feminine imperative to make it a social convention (through media, shaming tactics, etc.) that “genetic paternity” is irrelevant, that fatherhood as defined as “the one who is helping raising the kids” is the only true measure of male paternity. Slowly conditioning males to accept cuckoldry would then allow women to pursue their dual strategy without a shred of social resistance.

    My prediction is actually **full-blown genetic paternity irrelevancy**, as in:

    * No more shared child custody and no more paternal visitation rights after divorce. Once you’re not with the mother anymore, **they’re not your children anymore.**

    * **Child support after divorce to be paid as a function of the time you spent with the mother**. You had a random hook-up and got her pregnant? You’ll pay of course. But then, when beta Bob takes her in his apartment, you’re off the hook: they are his kids now, not yours, so he’s 100% responsible. When she leaves Bob for Billy, Bob may still have to pay a bit since he was the dad for a while, even though he is not anymore.

    * The above might be difficult to implement, not because of reluctant men of course, but because of the difficulty to find the finances to support single mums during their “transitions”. So alternatively, the kids of a single mother will officially have “no dad” and **single mums will receive massive government subsidies, approximately equal to what former husbands currently pay in child support + alimony**. This will allow now-ex-dads to get off the hook in child support … but only directly, since they’ll actually pay through a massive “male bachelorhood tax” necessary to fund said subsidies. All single males will. You think men will never accept it? They already do. Governments will make it easy on men by **publicly celebrating the end of child support as an advancement for men**, while on the side **raising taxes for everyone, raising subsidies for single mums and increasing tax breaks for couples with children (as well as single childless women “to fight the wage gap”**).

    On par, the social convention will be accepted as **self-evident** as kids are increasingly considered as **”the children of the woman who birthed them and the man who raises them”**:

    * Today, men already find it normal to raise children who don’t share their genes (i.e. adoption and step-dads; note that it speaks volumes that even today in a couple where infertility comes from the woman, the man doesn’t necessarily insist on getting a surrogate mother instead of adopting). In the future, men will find it normal that his wife **and him** decided on getting a sperm donor even though the husband might be perfectly fertile. After all, he’s raising them so he’s the dad right? Since he’s the dad anyway, wouldn’t it be good that his kids inherit great facial features and a good height anyway? There will be future business opportunities to collect and sell sperm from particularly good male specimen (rock stars, Hollywood actors, male models…).

    * Today, some men have a cuckold fetish and the entire society is pressing to allow recognition of “poly-amory” or “open-relationship” as a valid lifestyle choice, **which are all cuckold in disguise** (the wife of a ripped, masculine Chad would never ever bring up the idea). In the future, “sexual exclusivity” will be considered a thing of the past. Men will say “Well of course she’s got her lover on the side! Your wife doesn’t? You guys are such traditionalists…”. And then when the woman gets pregnant, who will really care who’s the genetic father, since the “raiser” he is the de facto dad.

    All of this will come gradually of course, as the Zeitgeist does, but it will undoubtedly happens as **this constitutes Hypergamy heaven – the actual realization of the Feminine sexual imperative -** and thus women are more or less unconsciously pushing in that direction.

    Men will undoubtedly feel in their gut that “it’s not normal that my kids aren’t *really* my kids” but they’ll be constrained by social conventions **the same way as women’s hypergamy has been constrained for centuries despite their feeling in their gut that “I don’t really want to have children with this slob of a weak and poor man”.**

  14. “There must come a point where men …”

    When the marriage rate dips to 35%,
    when strong men simply refuse to have wives or LTGs of any stripe,
    when 15% of men, strong or otherwise, hand-grenade their finances
    or do indefinite jail-time rather than pay coerced child support,
    when single mothers are universally looked upon with quiet contempt,

    only then will women as a voting bloc contemplate the necessary Changes.

    One: Alimony ceases.
    Two: Individual Child Support ceases.
    Three: State Child Support conditional on sterilisation.

  15. Interesting… some women advocate for 50/50 shared custody (leading women for shared parenting group), but out of a sense of fairness to fathers and of course “for the kids”. For this other hypergamous woman Emma Johnson to advocate for 50/50 out of just pure solipsism (she got her sperm and now a better provider) may be one way to get supporters and for this to get more widespread acceptance. Of course once it’s in a woman’s benefit they will want it.

  16. To quote RT himself “demonstrate don’t explicate”.

    Refuse to marry unless the Laws and family courts change marriage into a “fair deal”. (Don’t hold your breath).

    Refuse to date single mothers (pump and dump or FB only).

    Don’t live with a woman it’s too restrictive, it limits your options and drains your time and energy that are limited resources.

    Don’t be afraid to objectify them, the current crop of females have CHOSEN to become the sex objects of Alphas! Never forget this it’s what they want.

    Love hypergamously and opportunistically as they do, now you know the truth about female nature and their lack of loyalty and morals why limit yourself if they don’t return the favour?

    Never bring up another mans children. I had a single mom plate for 15 months (she was 18 years younger than me with 2 young kids).

    I NEVER even met them, I only saw their photos, I Refuse to fuck their lives up even more than their mother has already done, she has to own that shit not me! She stopped seeing me over this issue but I refused to compromise.

    Guess what 3 months later she’s now OK with it and wants to come back!

    Studies have shown women are less happy now than they’ve ever been!
    Who knew?? We have FI supremacy and Slut nirvana and they’re Less happy.

    Women don’t know what they want and that’s a FACT!
    Women don’t actually like each other very much so what does that tell you?

    They have overplayed their hand and it’s our job to call their collective bluff!

    They have the legal system, the state and the media on their side, unless this changes all we can do is say No!

    With things as they stand why wouldn’t they ride the CC for as long as possible all trying to get commitment from the top 5% of men? (20% is bullshit in my opinion) I see it as 5% alphas, 15% greater betas, 80% common betas.

    They have a choice, they are choosing the CC and alpha widowhood over being the esteemed matriarch of a loving family, they have shown their true colours, their true desires and they have the balls to call men Superficial.

    They would rather work a shitty job that they hate and ride the CC in the hope of gaining an alphas commitment (even hb5’s think they ‘deserve’ that top 5% man, that’s how deluded they are, they believe the guys that will fuck them are the same one they can get commitment from !! Go figure)

    They’ve ruined themselves as they Always will when given the chance, how do you expect a creature who’s decisions are based on their ever changing feelings to do anything else?

    It’s a fucking primal jungle in the dating market right now and you need to Adapt to that Fact or destroy yourself with your outdated Idealistic concept of ‘Love’.

  17. @Pinelero on September 26, 2016 at 3:24 am

    I think both groups of woman have the same motivation for a shared custody, it’s just that Emma Johnson is frank about it and the others are not. Their hamster still convinces them of their noble intentions whereas miss Johnson no longer needs that.

  18. “There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”

    So, I guess that means marry your daughters off to an Alpha dude before she hits 25.

    How many of you OMG’s are going to do that?

  19. “So, I guess that means marry your daughters off to an Alpha dude before she hits 25.
    How many of you OMG’s are going to do that?”

    Sorry for the snark, but my point is that this is long game. It’s going to take a few generations. The first step is to get Dads back to raising their kids. This is what the YSGs are trying to do…

  20. Andy

    “How many of you OMG’s are going to do that?”

    Come now, do try and keep up. recall just a few entries ago, in response to the cry that “no 25YO girl will even consider marriage” that I said my 24YO daughter has been to a couple of weddings this summer and half a dozen engagement parties. I believe SJF noted similar.

    I’d have no problem with any of my 4 daughters marrying, and would encourage it IF IT IS THE RIGHT GUY.

    There are tremendous benefits to marrying young and having kids young. I married at 23 and had my first at 24. Women are built to marry and have kids young Andy…

    ” It’s going to take a few generations. The first step is to get Dads back to raising their kids.”

    YES!!! And it starts with you, not “all men you” but you – ANDY. Raise your kids in the image you want… gets back to my point to HABD on culture starting and ending with YOU, within your 4 walls.

    For example in my house – with 4 daughters – I implemented a day one non violable NO DATING rule. Until age 18. Guess what? I t wasn’t easy. Yes I had push back from “enlightened” friends, even the wife hemmed and hawed and needed to be put in place a few times (Her chief gripe was they needed to learn how to go on a date, lol) – all of which was shut down with a simple “they need to learn how to get fingered and give hand jobs?”. Done. After some of my friends daughters went through messy HS dating scenes and breakups etc… they all came back to me and said I was right. Meanwhile my daughters did not become “boy crazy”, that is a myth too…. they got on with their lives and guess what now at 18 they have little interest boys and dating… sure that will change and needs to.. and will… but they have a far better perspective than the 14YO who has been through half a dozen BF’s by the time they graduate… But it takes work Andy. You need to have the backbone to set the rules and enforce them.

    “This is what the YSGs are trying to do”

    How are they trying to “raise their kids” when they are advocating for cuckoldry and seeing them only 50% of the time? Or less?

  21. “There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”

    While I agree with that statement, I have a hard time imagining a way that doesn’t include some level of violence. I don’t expect parliamentarians abolish divorce laws and reinstate patriarchy, they would get kicked out at the next election by the offended female vote. Ah but we are going to take away the women’s vote by parliamentary vote as well? Not gonna happen.

    We will have to vote with our feet, money and dicks. And once every four years, vote for an as red pill politician you can find on your voting ballot. And then hope for the best.

  22. Matanan

    ““There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”
    While I agree with that statement, I have a hard time imagining a way that doesn’t include some level of violence”

    Don’t forget though that the end of the FI system is a lie, it is collapse in actuality. Much like the Soviet system, it will end not with a big bang but collapse under its own weight.

    But there must be men ready to pick it up from their. I applaud Rollo’s Call to Patriarchy.

  23. PlayDontPay

    “With things as they stand why wouldn’t they ride the CC for as long as possible all trying to get commitment from the top 5% of men? ”

    Because as long as possible is really a short ride for the vast majority of women and they never even see the top 20%. If I had a dollar for every late 20’s girl who told me “all the good men are taken (married) or gay”… Nature is brutal and in the end always correct.

    Two very different riding experiences…

  24. “How are they trying to “raise their kids” when they are advocating for cuckoldry and seeing them only 50% of the time? Or less?”

    No, lol. They’re just saying that there is a decent chance that this will happen even if you’re a pimp. Not advocating for it. Personally I think that the chances of that happening are probably lower than what YaReally thinks, but it doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t change the goal of the discussion.

    “Raise your kids in the image you want… gets back to my point to HABD on culture starting and ending with YOU, within your 4 walls.”

    Agreed. Maybe your daughters will marry young. That would be great. I just doubt that will be the case. I’m not slamming you guys, that’s just the reality we live in right now.

  25. “I predict it’s the next stage for our society bent on following the feminine imperative to make it a social convention (through media, shaming tactics, etc.) that “genetic paternity” is irrelevant . . .”

    Inheritance will be matrilineal.

    “* No more shared child custody and no more paternal visitation rights after divorce.”

    There will be no paternal visitation or divorce, because there will be no formal state of marriage outside the upper caste. Women will own the house. Men will not be a legal resident, they will have their own apartment elsewhere. They will visit women in their homes entirely at a woman’s discretion.

    Men will not only be OK with this, they will think it was their own idea, not seeing that they want the arrangement because of the environment created by women to manipulate them into wanting it.

    ” . . . when beta Bob takes her in his apartment . . .”

    Hence, this will not happen. A woman will always have a women’s house to live in.

    ” . . . men will find it normal that his wife . . .”

    Men will not have wives as such. They will have women who allow them regular visits.

    ” . . . he’s raising them so he’s the dad right?”

    No. Children will be raised by the women’s houses. The “village.” Boys will be spun off to men’s housing at adolescence.

  26. “The first step is to get Dads back to raising their kids. This is what the YSGs are trying to do…”

    No. This is what PUAs got into their heads to do a couple of threads ago when I delineated how they could get married outside of the system. They are in a state of sudden excitement that it could similarly be possible to be a father.

    But unlike the case of unregistered marriage where they listened to the nuts and bolts of the idea, they are “demanding” nuts and bolts answers to parenthood, yet refuse to listen to the answers, as in this case they find them unpalatable.

    Answers being provided by men who have the field experience of being fathers, which the PUAs lack.

    While the PUAs simultaneously argue that only men with field experience have a valid perspective of the field.

    And the strawmen continue to march in circles.

  27. Andy

    Do you have a daughter? What will you do? Have you thought about it? I’m curious what your thoughts are on this.

    But this ” Not advocating for it” is just false. All of the scenarios imply that the mother has the freedom to lay other dudes (i.e. potential pregnancy) and there was an explicit suggestion to “break up” at year 6 and have her out seeing what she was missing.

  28. “Answers being provided by men who have the field experience of being fathers, which the PUAs lack.”

    What answers?

  29. ” . . . there was an explicit suggestion to “break up” at year 6 and have her out seeing what she was missing.”

    Q.E.D. Men will think it was their idea.

  30. KFG

    “Boys will be spun off to men’s housing at adolescence.”

    Maybe this is not such a bad thing… as long as the queers are kept away…

  31. KFG

    “Men will think it was their idea.”

    You are spot on… the more bleating from PUA on this topic the more it underscores that the Alpha Fux Pussy Uber Alles in extrimis is just a prong of the FI.

    Those Alpha Farms of 2045 ain’t going to fill themselves…

  32. I see the need for the “hamster window” to be considered in discussions like this. I propose that it’s parallel to the Overton window only it applies to what extent hypergamy will be discussed in the public discourse not political issues (yes there is overlap for sure)

  33. “Do you have a daughter? What will you do? Have you thought about it? I’m curious what your thoughts are on this.”

    I don’t. If I did I would probably raise her to respect men and help her understand what ultimate happiness would be for her. (have kids early with the right guy) Unfortunately from what I’ve seen society has a bigger influence on kids than parents. Maybe I haven’t seen any good parents, but my generation is seriously fucked up compared to yours. Just a scroll through my facebook, and 3/4 of the girls are single Moms or single with no kids at mid 30’s. I wish I was exaggerating.

  34. “Unfortunately from what I’ve seen society has a bigger influence on kids than parents.”

    The schools are designed, by psychologists, to affect a transfer of authority away from parents (and particularly fathers) and onto teachers and school administrators.

    And that’s the good news.

    The bad news is that the current crop of primary schoolers are being trained to have authority over their parents. Start preparing your public confessions to the Cultural Revolution.

  35. I know I’ll get a lot of hate from this, but would what the chick in the article proposes be inherently bad?

    Like, you meet a girl who you screen for good parental skills/agreeability, emphasizing this vs her hotness/kinkiness etc.
    You have a kid together, knowing that you might break-up around the 10year mark or before, probably because of sexual boredom. You break up amicably, stay friends and have the kid stay with each other 50% of the time, while agreeing on some basic principles to raise him (so that he does not get 2 different parenting styles in each homes).
    Would you say that this would really fuck the development of the kid up? And would it be worse than an intact mariage where the parents hate each other and don’t have sex anymore, but stay together “for the sake of the kids”.

    OMGs, tell me in what horribly obvious ways this could go wrong lol

  36. “….we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.”

    Can men? How many men are addicted to a constant stream of top-tier women performing sexual acts on screen?

    I’m not shaming or pearl-clutching here, I’ll enjoy the occasional porn as much as the next bloke but all of these things matter. How many more men would be more inspired to do something with flesh-and-blood women, learn how they tick, develop LEVERAGE with them, if the much-easier option of staying home, jerking it to whatever kind of woman you want, then playing a combat simulator or chatting about stuff on Reddit didn’t exist?

    I’m not really trying to redirect blame or change the topic here. My point is more illustrative. Porn became cheap, discreet and abundant, just like attention and validation did for women. It resulted in a Vox gamma explosion. Think of women’s social media in a similar way. It mars (though does not totally break) the whole market.

    I suppose I’m skeptical that men, as a group, at capable of rallying and forming a new frame for women when we’re kinda pulled down by the same technological forces. There are strong men here, and elsewhere. But we’re the outliers. We’re like an aristocracy trying to rally an army from a peasantry ravaged by disease.

    I’m actually optimistic things are gonna turn out relatively ok in the future, I’m just pointing out the tactical difficulties we currently face. Things are going to proceed rather differently this time around than they have in the past. Tactics change with technology; just like castles are obsolete, the old ways of creating frame are as well.

    Just look at the way the alt-right has developed. That’s not how the Republican Party was formed, to say the least. Pepe the fuckin frog, lol.

    I suppose we just need to find we now need to find ways to work from WITHIN the new virtual paradigm. Her hypergamy is gonna be working online. Is it viable for a man to arrange that it’ll be triggered by him there as well?

    Or the other way: if a girl is worried about her man watching porn, maybe she should make him some. Variety may suffer, but she can customize. Hell, make it a Skype call and he has a free personal stream, which he’d pay good money for on Chaturbate.

    Personally I’m not a huge fan of retreating into the virtual. But even this place here – it’s a virtual tribe/conversation/meeting of minds. Shit’s moving online. Do we follow?

    Relatedly, my sister teenaged sister played me this recently. She told me it was ‘the song of [her] people.’ Warning not for consumption by those with a tween culture allergy:

    http://youtu.be/fqDVIu689ow

  37. Andy

    “but my generation is seriously fucked up compared to yours. ” This is all part of the lie though. Both my parents and my wife’s are divorced, and hers divorced when she was young. Gen X have huge divorce parent rates (and I believe we are technically the same generation BTW) thanks to Boomers chasing feels and the Silents giving up completely…

    In all my kids classes for the past 20 years (and counting) about 1/4 to 1/3 are divorced.

  38. Klem

    ” while agreeing on some basic principles to raise him (so that he does not get 2 different parenting styles in each homes).”

    So you are going to get her next Baby daddy’s agreement to this part too?

  39. “I know I’ll get a lot of hate from this, but would what the chick in the article proposes be inherently bad?”

    Ok now y’all are just baiting kfg.

    “They will think it was their….”

  40. @klem

    The first thing I noticed about the woman’s plan was that it requires the full commitment of two men for each woman for it to work. She would find the plan a bit less appealing if man #1 got remarried and had more kids, diluting his ability to care for the first batch; and then man #2 was ALSO on his second marriage and she had to help care for HIS first batch while hers is away.

  41. Entertainment is on board with movies promoting hypergamy, both covert and open. A commenter at Dalrock’s dredged up three:

    The Architect on IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3180912/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

    Price Check: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1845849/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_24 The husband in this fiml is ignorant in the end, happily raising another man’s baby.

    In One Hot Summer http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1422201/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2 — it is not clear who the father is but the Beta dutifully raises it.

    AF-BB and possibly AF-BC on Hallmark. What’s on Oxygen, Lifetime and Oprah? Dunno but given the way vampire porn took off a few years back…not to mention 50 SOG…we can expect this idea to be firmly rooted in popular culture in 5 years if not sooner.

    One way to rationalize this: “well, now that women are finally freed from the shackles of Patriarchy, it’s time to accept that no one man can provide for all a woman’s needs”, something that open feminsists and conservative feminists AKA “complimentarians” can get on board with.

  42. “There are strong men here, and elsewhere. But we’re the outliers. We’re like an aristocracy trying to rally an army from a peasantry ravaged by disease.”

    One of the ideas I have put forward that the YSPUAs find unpalatable is that Joe the Plumber is already hosed. The war has been fought. He has already lost and been occupied.

    The only way forward for Joe is resistance, counter revolution. It will take generations and there will be heavy losses. The adaptation route (joining Vichy, as I put it in the previous thread, just before Rollo put up this article) leads what I have written above.

    And that’s just the way it is. Try to play “ought,” squish, just like grape.

    ” . . . the Silents giving up completely…”

    Think of all the big names of the 60s social revolution, the movers and shakers. The Hoffmans, Rubins, Fondas, Dylans, et al.

    They weren’t Boomers. They were Silents (with some Greatest, such as the Learys, acting as elder mentors).

  43. “In all my kids classes for the past 20 years (and counting) about 1/4 to 1/3 are divorced.”

    I would say a plurality of girls I went to high school with are single moms and never got married (that I know of). About a tie between still married to baby daddy and single no kids. Then a small % are divorced with kids. These are college educated white UMC/MC girls from a 55/45 liberal/conservative town. Most of my friends parents are divorced. Of the one’s I know that are still married all are unhappy (by my definition) and sleep in separate rooms. I wish I was exaggerating.

  44. “Ok now y’all are just baiting kfg.”

    While individual and small groups of outlier men look at the board and try to work out their next move, the collective of women is setting up checkmate in 10.

  45. “There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”

    I wonder whether this “correction” is not already starting to take place?
    Not in an overt, active, public or verbal “dressing down” sense that one would imagine from some drill sergeant, but a more deliberate, calm, passive and almost indifferent response by men.

    Indeed a growing number of men are no longer silent about how poorly they are being regarded and treated by women and by the state, by teachers, by school administrators, by the corporation at work, by the corporation as consumers, and generally in any public setting one might frequent.

    But the correction may also be taking place regardless. Refusing to marry. Spinning plates. Prioritizing male self-improvement and self-actualization above provider and protector roles and behaviors. Vasalgel.

    It will take time, maybe 5 to 10 years, but women will and must respond to such shifts, no matter how enthralling their social media inputs, or how poor they are at processing it and the wholesale impact on their character.

    The worst thing that can happen, may already be happening in that modern day women don’t realize the extent to which they have over played their hands with respect to men and intersexual relations. I don’t think the author of that article is aware of, or could envision a new generation of men who are becoming more self-aware, more indifferent to female demands and pretexts, and more focused on their own interests. You can even delete all of the guys who are angry, divorced and screwed over (the “you’re just bitter”s). There’s still a shit ton of guys left over right now who look upon married men with contempt, not pity, who distrust women, and frankly would not bat an eye, smile or weep if society burned completely down to the ground. It’s effed up. And it’s only going to get worse.

  46. @Forge the Sky

    I noticed the same assumption about the “single mother dream for my daughter” story. She has to find one schlub to deceive first, then find her AF with the expectation that he will be ok with her kids around half the time. Of course it’s assumed that the AF will be single, it isn’t even thought of that he might also have kids and she will have to deal with his half the time, as well as the baby mama drama, etc. Makes me lulz… Such narcissicm and sense of entitlement, fully expecting to just dump the first husband, then have a perfect, single AF waiting to fully accept her….insane

  47. KFG

    ” the collective of women is setting up checkmate in 10.”

    But what do you call a woman who gets everything she ever wanted?

    Unhappy.

  48. “Sentient”

    Come now, do try and keep up. recall just a few entries ago, in response to the cry that “no 25YO girl will even consider marriage” that I said my 24YO daughter has been to a couple of weddings this summer and half a dozen engagement parties.

    Actually “Sentient” offered an unverifiable anecdote in response to my observation: I have a difficult time believing that any UMC girly will want to marry before the age of 29.999 because “collecting experiences” and “establishing career”, i.e. carousel riding. No one said what “Sentient” claimed. That’s just another of his strawman, one of many created instead of actual thinking about the problem.

    For those who really are sentient and thus interested in reality vs. fantasy, here’s some actual data from the Pew organization. It’s 2 years old, which is pretty close to current by marriage survey standards.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/02/06/new-census-data-show-more-americans-are-tying-the-knot-but-mostly-its-the-college-educated/

    Note that the age bracket with the highest number of marriages is 25 – 34. The average or arithmetic mean of that bracket? Oh, somewhere around 29. Of course that assumes a uniform distribution across the bracket, which is not necessarily supported. However, it’s worth pointing out that actual data from the US Census tends to support my observation, not “Sentient”‘s anecdotes.

    The larger issue in the 2014 data is the uneven distribution of marriage across the economic space, with “has college degree” noticeably more likely to marry than “has high school diploma only”.

    As I have said multiple times, If This Goes On only the religious and UMC will be marrying. The data above supports my assertion. So men in the working class and lower middle class, or “Fishtown” as Charles Murray references them, just aren’t inclined to marry, it appears. This will cause social stress going forward as I’ve pointed out here and other places for the last 6 years.

    Probably the best way to push back against some of this is via memes on social media. Since it is obvious that the girls have short attention spans, pictures with a few words are more likely to capture their brains than long, reasoned arguments. Emotion vs. reason? We know which one women resonate with.

    This topic has been interesting to me in terms of the emotionality generated among the “natural” Alphas. It’s almost as though Alphas are more like women in terms of emotional continence. But the set here is small, so it’s not really significant to draw conclusions from.

  49. “If This Goes On only the religious and UMC will be marrying . . . men in the working class and lower middle class . . . just aren’t inclined to marry, it appears.”

    Oh. Hey! That’s the century old model.

    Fancy that.

  50. Anonymous

    Try less reading and more comprehension… Note the stats you cite for 25 and under are not nil, as a start…

  51. As a 22 year OMG (now divorced and 54 years old), I can tell you these last three years have been one long journey. From being so angry I almost beat the fuck out of a guy in a Home Depot parking lot the first Christmas Eve I wasn’t with my four kids (it was one week after I caught her cheating and moved out) to banging a 22 year Titled Kilt bartender (Thanks YaReally!).

    I read Married Red Pill regularly. They have a plan and it seems to work. The problem is you have to be Cal Fuckin Ripken to make it work. Miss a game and you’re benched for life. It’s sad to read the stories of the guys that post there. Without a doubt every divorced guy ended up divorced because he didn’t know the true nature of women and/or he became a fat lazy fuck.

    Unless they know what Rollo teaches, men are not going to “apologetically correct women for the betterment of society”. Hell, most can’t even walk up to a girl and start talking to her.

    The only way to fix this is teach every boy about the Red Pill and make them learn about tight Game.

  52. Forge – nice vid link. I see a lot of that all around me, starting with the toddlers carrying tablets.

    Sure, there’s plenty of men who are content with the illusion of a harem, just as women are content with the illusion of unlimited male affirmation. There’s a big difference, of course: visual porn is denegrated even now in the wider society, and in the religious subcommunities it’s equated with cheating or adultery. Beta orbiters? No big deal. Ditto women’s preferred form of porn, textual, no big deal. Just more of the catering to the FI.

    All in favor of encouraging men to put away their porn and hit the field.
    Which is easier, convicing Joe the Plumber to turn off Pornhub, or convincing Jane the Government Clerk to turn off Facebook / Instagram / Tinder? Oops.

    The “blank slate” fallacy reigns supreme, and we are not anywhere near its peak, because now we’ve moved beyond “Girls can do ANYTHING” to “gender is just a social construct” in the legal sense. NO idea what ‘peak tranny’ will look like, but it’s going to be bizarre.

    Here, check out this trend. Some of these people are the future UMC movers and shakers. This goes hand in hand with that Brown Uni story about placing tampons / pads in all the uni men’s bathrooms. Where does this lead? No clue. But the sorority girls who have a “sister” that’s just a man in a nightie might wind up with some odd ideas about what “marriage” should look like, maybeso.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/25/transgender-students-fraternities-and-sororities

  53. Forge
    The first thing I noticed about the woman’s plan was that it requires the full commitment of two men for each woman for it to work. She would find the plan a bit less appealing if man #1 got remarried and had more kids, diluting his ability to care for the first batch; and then man #2 was ALSO on his second marriage and she had to help care for HIS first batch while hers is away.

    Doesn’t matter what the man wants. Under the child-support model of “marriage” the resources follow the child, and her plan assumes the child support model, i.e. “marriage” is a three-way between a man, a woman and the state. There are plenty of personal accounts out on the net from remarried men and/or second wives concerning the economic effects of child support to the first wife’s kids. I suspect this is one reason why in many states feminists have opposed mandatory 50-50 child custody laws, because the resources follow the child, so 50-50 custody cuts back on money that Mommy Dearest could be raking in from her ex.

    So long as the child-support model of marriage continues, AF-BB is completely feasible. In fact, so is AF-BC.

    The exterme version of this can be seen in the welfare-based communities, the land of EBT cards, where women can and do push out mulitiple children spawned by multiple different men, thereby collecting multiple checks from government and maybe child support as well.

    So far as I can tell, the child-support model of marriage in the US resulted from the 1970’s invention of men’s-fault divorce, followed by the creation of anti-family court in the late 70’s to early 80’s. However this model was amped up via welfare “reform” in the 1990’s. Now we can put men in jail for failure to pay back child support, and the money owned keeps on piling up while they are inside, thereby guaranteeing they won’t ever be able to pay it off. Great system! But since only poor men wind up in that fix, eh, it doesn’t matter, right?

  54. After reading that article Rollo linked, I had to go over there and post this after she claimed that this setup wasn’t deceptive at all:

    Sounds like such a perfect dream setup… that’s of course if you leave out the sense of entitlement, the hypocrisy, cruelty, and pure selfishness of it all. Yes, the plan absolutely does require deception, as you stated above:

    “….. her goal is for her daughter, who is now a teenager, is to grow up and have a child with a great man who will be a great co-parent, then END THE RELATIONSHIP and find a loving romantic partnership with someone else”.

    Right, because mister great potential co-parent was just totally expecting his relationship to be ended once all this woman’s criteria was in place? Seriously GTFO. The entire tone of that statement is inherently deceptive, and is very clear that this woman doesn’t really give a shit about the feelings or life of the guy getting dumped, it’s all about the fantasy see. There’s no mention of why the relationship should be ended except because she wants it to, that’s it. How is the first husband supposed to feel about it? Like was stated above by another poster, impossible that the guy would go along with this if it was made clear to him that he’s gonna be left when she feels good and ready, and will only see his kids 50/50 now cuz feelz.

    I also find the entitlement and narcissism revolting. This woman’s fantasy for her daughter is that she is gonna have her cake, eat it too, and lick the icing off the candles. Too arrogant and self-absorbed to stop and think for a second how she’s gonna like it if the husband that was dumped re-marries, or re-marries a woman with kids, now having less time to focus on co-parenting their child. Also it’s implied that the new alpha she branch swings to is single, and just has time to spend all on her and their “loving romantic partnership”. How about considering that this man might like his single life and doesn’t care to have her kids around 50% of the time? Or how about considering that this new guy might also have kids, and she’s gonna now have to deal with them around 50/50 and any baby mamma drama, etc. thats invovled? No that wasn’t a thought was it?

    And you talk about sexism? Tell me what would happen if a guy outright stated that his plan for his son was to find some nice church girl, have a few children with her, then “end the relationship” and find some other chick to romp in the hay with and live happily ever after? I can’t even begin to imagine the outrage. But it’s women doing it, so it’s alright, no double standard or anything.

    Sorry folks, all logic, realistic expectations, morals, and decency are suspended during the Hamster Wheel ride. Please keep arms, legs, and wallets inside the safety zone until the ride is over, thank you.

  55. Rollo,

    Good stuff as usual.

    Pay attention to the comments ( as you usually seem to do ) and notice the prevalent pattern that I’ve seen as the norm.

    The last sentences of the op will fly over most commenters head’s at light speed.

    The work. The responsibility. The understanding. The BURDEN.

    As an ” OMG ” that has virtually given up on trying to help out ( see Andy’s ” what answers ” comment above ) because there is a closed mindset that is evidently pervasive.

    This is illustrative of the larger problem at hand. Maintaining strong frame over a lifetime is being seen as impossible. But saying that this mindset is defeatist is ridiculed.

    Trying to explain that seeing your kids sporadically, even 60% of the time is not conducive to good parenting is NOT grasped by the non-parent crowd who inexplicably still profess wanting children at some point.

    Following an FI gameplan.

    Excellent points in the op. I wish all could fully understand and eschew circular, repetitive argument in avoidance of understanding.

  56. Ultimately, a lot of the problems we have in society today (which aren’t limited to the relationships between men and women) exist because we’re a tremendously wealthy civilization. The reason we have an absolutely insane family structure and that, as a society, we kowtow to the lunatics is because we’re wealthy enough to survive the consequences. While individuals might be smart about such things it is general human nature to squander advantages in whatever form they take. We do it because we can afford it.

    Personally, I expect marriage, family and the relationship between the sexes to revert to what we would consider the norm (marriage 1.0) and when it happens I expect to happen very quickly.

    I hope it will occur because we are fortunate enough to find one or more of history’s great visionaries, and I hope that those visionaries are able to revitalize our culture and society across a broad spectrum. There are a few such examples in history.

    I think it is more likely that marriage 1.0 will reassert itself because it’s the best and most effective way to build a family and society in hard times. History is cyclical, and we’re due for some rough patches ahead. Some combination of plague, blight, famine, natural disasters, economic collapse and war (civil and external) will put tremendous pressure on us, and the FI simply isn’t capable of surviving it. FI and a lot of the -isms of today need an overabundance of resources to be frittered away on their pet desires. Think of it as a form of Darwinism.

    I’m not saying don’t look for solutions to the problems in front of you. Problems are there to be solved, after all, and fixing some of them before history hits it’s great reset button might result in a better outcome for everyone down the road. My point is that the things we see around us today will change, and the events that dictate that change are almost impossible to predict precisely. Look for them so you recognize them when they appear, have an idea of what would you think would be best and how you might be able to guide people there, and you might just have that opportunity to make it happen.

  57. Me

    “If This Goes On only the religious and UMC will be marrying . . . men in the working class and lower middle class . . . just aren’t inclined to marry, it appears.”

    kfg

    Oh. Hey! That’s the century old model.

    Could you support this assertion with some data?
    A time series of % married vs. % never married sorted by income starting in, say, 1890 to 1910 running up to around 2014 would be pretty good evidence.

    Because I’m sure you aren’t just making stuff up for a cool one-liner.

  58. atticus, that’s another brick the wall for sure, but I don’t think it’s peak Tranny or peak Blank Slate. It’s not even peak madness.

    There’s an old story by Robert Heinlein back in the 50’s called “All You Zombies” that comes to mind. Truth is stranger than fiction, though.

  59. Colbert

    To go along with the Woman Card… any “man” that votes Hillary, well he was asking for what comes next…

  60. “There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now.”

  61. Atticus

    Maybe men being ” fat lazy fucks ” has negative consequences? Maybe negative consequences being marriage or ltr’s?

    Maybe men shouldn’t become fat lazy fucks for a multitude of reasons?

    Maybe?

  62. I refer the honorable gentlemen to the reply I gave some moments ago (actually threads ago in the Best of):
    Andy asks if some of us have daughters. I do have a sproglette of my own, not much younger than the one parented by the Proprietor.
    And I still don’t know what to tell her on this subject. I have been t her about the modern SMP, in order to pump WHAT IS into her head. That I can do.
    But beyond that? The prospects are not good out there.
    I have noted, as sfer did, the way the Swedes do things,specifically:
    Scandinavian countries have a variety of non-marriage living together situations:
    https://www.government.nl/topics/family-law/contents/marriage-registered-partnership-and-cohabitation-agreements

    Bless her little pointed head, she seems to have already picked up on that. Unprompted from me, she has said (I paraphrase) that the best people like her may be able to get in the future is a Swedish-style informal working agreement with some man with whom she can share some years and raise a kid or more together, no matter what may transpire relationship-wise. Only enforceable for As Long As We Both Shall Love. But hopefully staying enough together for the kids’ sake. You might call it a sense of duty, though she hasn’t used that word.

    She already knows the shit side, seeing all her classmates’ families auto-destructing right and left, and what disfiguring scars that leaves. And yes you could say they’re MC, if not UMC. Oh well.

    One canard both wealthysinglemommy’s Johnson and you guys here need to ditch is the notion that kids are OK with parents splitting up. THEY ARE NOT. Dr. Judith Wallerstein did the study: Children of divorce pine for their daddies. The Single Mothers Handbook has a whole chapter on the thoughtcrime question every child asks: Why No Daddy? Where’s Daddy?

    To which the answer is usually something like [reasons]. Or: you are not to ask that question again you cisheterosexist non-intersectional bigot now go put on this dress while I schedule your reconstruction surgery so you can be a hermaphroditic QIA just like the Joneses’ kid. (Another fashion statement, literally. Right up there with the prior fashion statement,“our sons are fidgety in school so let’s drug them besides it’s good for them”).
    There are now too many studies which confirm that two-parent families are best, and that breakups during childhood put huge head trips on all children.

    So our answer is to bring back the OTHER OTHER fashion statement from the 90’s that we don’t need dads at all, and if they are around, dads should be moms. We tell ourselves all children are resilient and strong and can adapt to any seismic family-busting bomb we throw at them. We adults, however, are special snowflakes who can’t handle not being happy at all times and if we aren’t we’ll blow it all up and start over again.

    The focus on trans-stuff is irritating, to be sure, but keep in mind that is also very much a fashion statement, like “recovered memories” of abuse, the once-trending anti-vaccination scare, or “satanic rituals” at schools and child care centers, or Ritalin for boys who talk too much.

    Remember that ultimately, truly dysmorphic trans folk maybe are like 1/100 percent of the population of 330 million, or 330,000 people. Not a tiny number, sure, but not enough to drive the bus. (By contrast, LG and B folk make up maybe 5 -8%, depending on where you survey, ranging from 18 to 26 million people, a considerably bigger bloc).

    So once again we are focused on the question about WHAT SHOULD BE. You know, that dirty filthy lie.

    Well FWIW, the best I can do is see around the corner sometimes, to make me know what’s THERE.

    So my magic 8 ball says:

    The current crop of high school and college boys are already abandoning courtship, dating, and marriage because they’ve absorbed that any approach to a girl is assault, and any canoodling is an expulsion offense. They get their sex ed from porn because their ex-hippie free-love disco-dancing parents are just as tight-assed about sex ed as their old school “inhibited” no-sex-please-we’re-Catholic gran-grans were. The Illuminanti’s dangling of the old “prizes” of marriage, a family, a home of your own and a lifetime career don’t register. They’re illusory in every respect. Our unemployed collgrads can’t get jobs, careers, or respect, and they’ve seen their families collapse.

    Yet even so, without Trigglypuff on hand to scream “ASSAULT” like a Pod Person to the Dean of Students to stop them – some of the beta chodes and lower-middle HB gals will hook up out of sheer dumb luck and desperation, with no Game or filtering. They’ll be happy for some company for at least a few hours without shaming or bullying from someone else, or to each other. Not using jimmy hats, some will produce a certain quota of sprogs. That’s your workforce of the future.

    To see how they will be raised, read the books “Promises I Can Keep” about single moms holding out for marriage to a good guy but wanting their babeez NOW, and “The Best That I Can Do’, about how the bio-dads try to stay in touch with their kids in various halting ways.

    Which all means something like the Swedish model – with open doors for both Chodemasters and branch-swinging GoGrrls – will by default become the norm.

    Marriage, as we know it, will be for gay folk, UMC legacy-preservation families and arranged-marriage cultures like in Southern Asia.
    See AR’s cite above for further confirmation.

    Anyway – this will be the result:

    Dissatisfaction with these “market” forces will make the reassertion of masculinity possible. It will come back, first as a fashion statement. Ads aimed at women (which most are) will stop showing clueless clods in favor of more Interesting Men who are daring, charming and reckless.

    That’s where you come in. That’s when your seed may find purchase.

    PS: My magic 8-ball now tells me “Reply hazy go fuck yourself.” A millenial model, I guess.

  63. “Sentient”

    Try less reading and more comprehension… Note the stats you cite for 25 and under are not nil, as a start…

    I know how to read a graph and estimate the central tendency for data sets & data subsets. You too butthurt to think clearly?

    Or just not sentient enough for this ride?

  64. @Blax

    “Ya think maybe…”

    Absolutely.

    Then again, a lot of fit, successful guys (like me) end up divorced because of lack of knowledge and her feelz. Not everyone had the RP role models you were blessed with.

    Then there are guys who marry and figure, “well, I provide a roof. No need to work on me.” He gets fat. She gets fat. It one big happy fat family. Until she’s unhappy.

    That’s why I said boys need to be taught Red Pill AND game.

  65. Anonymous

    I know you like to duck questions but let’s try again – is the marriage rate in the data you cite for 25 and under zero or not?

    Do you know what sentient even means? i don’t think so.

  66. @AR: “Could you support this assertion with some data?”

    The model is not data. It is “papers.” Papers on matriarchal societies.

    They begin emanating from the sociology department of Columbia University circa 100 years ago.

    The first “public” paper was Margaret Mead’s report on Samoa, which is almost pure propaganda, and which she was cultured (i.e. grown in a petri dish) to produce. Most of the current papers are originally written in Chinese. You may need to visit Columbia to read English translations, and the academic papers being currently written in commentary.

    If you want to understand the plan you are going to have to leave the measuring things department and walk on down to the feeling things department.

  67. Dude: hey man, look at the stats. We’re all fucked.

    Blaximus: well hold on… we’re not all fucked. Do you live by stats in life?

    Dude: Lol. Man, the stats can’t be disputed. Ever.

    Blaximus: but what if I said that I don’t see the same things that the stats point to, or if I said that there’s an underlying reason for those numbers.

    Dude: lol. That’s all anecdotal man.

    Blaximus: so you just look at stats that justify your pov/mindset as way to give up without gaining a wider and deeper understanding?

    Dude: lol.

    Blaximus: so outside forces play a significant role in your life and how you see yourself?

    Dude: lol. Stats man. Your blind. We’re all completely fucked. There’s nothing anyone can do about it.

    Blaximus: sounds defeatist.

    Dude: just facing reality man.

  68. Fred Flanging it:
    One canard both wealthysinglemommy’s Johnson and you guys here need to ditch is the notion that kids are OK with parents splitting up. THEY ARE NOT.

    Cosign + 1 gigapoints.

    If there was a disease, a germ or virus spread sickness, that did to children and teens what divorce does — a massive nationwide research program would be well underway to find a cure. It would be like the old polio research plus AIDS research rolled into one.

    It hurts them at all ages. I remember college-aged men and women dreading Christmas and Spring break because that’s when the announcements usually came – people 22 to 24 years old, afraid of what their parents were going to tell them. The younger the child, the more extensive the damage and it’s not just at the conscious level, either.

    kfg postulated in an earlier thread that BPD women (and almost all of them are women) are acting out like 5 year olds, because of daddy issues, resulting from divorce. I got nothing to counter that with, so I’m going with it. So men’s-fault divorce may well be the primary driver behind BPD?

    Men screening women for possible LTR’s need to know this, and be very careful around women whose parents divorced in the time window in question. Nobody else will care, of course.

    Men’s fault divorce hurts children, and hurts men, but it serves women’s short term interests. That’s why it cannot be discussed in the larger society, because women’s short term interests are a huge part of the Female Imperative.

  69. “Sentient”

    Anonymous

    I know you like to duck questions but let’s try again – is the marriage rate in the data you cite for 25 and under zero or not?

    What difference does that make?

    Do you understand what “central tendency for a data subset” means? Or are you just too butthurt to actually read and understand a simple sentence?

    Do you know what sentient even means? i don’t think so.

    Too butthurt to think? Yeah, looks that way. I was going to bring up the fact that age-at-first-marriage varies geographically and therefore culturally, but that’s clearly too complicated for you to deal with.

    Let’s try one more time. IN THE AGE GROUP MOST LIKELY TO MARRY, the median age at marriage is about 29 assuming uniform distribution in that subset. Did you get that SUBSET of the data? Now go look at the graph again and see if you can figure this out on your own.

    If ithat is too difficult for you, try asking a 5th grader for help.

  70. Hey Rollo, long-time reader, first-time commenter.

    I feel like this post quite eloquently captured the discontentment I feel over how Western society has become enthralled with social media and its consequences on intersexual dynamics. Having just turned 28 and starting grad school after five years out of school, seeing how these undergrads behave around campus is bizarrely surreal. You could swear their phones were as naturally an appendage as an arm or a leg. Conversation about what’s happening on Facebook or Instagram is the norm. Nobody wants to engage anyone in any sort of meaningful conversation. People’s attentions are stolen away by their mobile devices.

    In dating I find myself contending with the instant validation machine women carry in their purse. I’ve come to accept the fact that any girl I game will have orbiters on the ready to serve her attention and affection if I don’t. But I have the feeling that much like junk food, what she’ll get from those other guys pales in comparison to the five-star dinner I give her when my game is on-point. For the more PUA-minded folks out there, do y’all share this sentiment? How do you guys address this growing dynamic where you compete not only with the other men in any particular social setting, but with the men in her iPhone as well?

  71. Monogamy is dead , Jim.

    Regardless of the social machinations that have brought us to this point, we arrive at the conclusion succinctly stated by Rev Lawrence Shannon over 20 years ago;

    “A man possessing a woman exclusively as his own personal sex kitten is delusional. There are always other men, and sometimes women”.

    That phrase spells doom in the hearts of men in committed relationships. It should.

    I came to understand the Predatory Female quote above via my last LTRs friends. I tried to do the “honest man” thing by dating the LTR exclusively, but her pals kept trying to bed me. I got busted and the fallout meant no more LTR, although her pals kept up contact on the down low.

    Nowadays I’m at a point where an LTR isn’t even socially possible .Because every female has friends of both genders, and good luck keeping male friends when their wives and Gfs and One-Itis objects make moves on you because you’re the default AMOG. If I stay with a woman long enough it all blows up eventually. Even if I turn down an LTRs friends’ advances she’ll feel scorned by the rejection and nuke my reputation out of spite – and I’m back to square one.

    So , by virtue of society, I’m compelled to be a rake. Constantly banging girls behind the backs of their clueless betas .

    It’s a hard job ,but the FI imperative means someone’s gotta do it.

  72. Atticus
    Then again, a lot of fit, successful guys (like me) end up divorced because of lack of knowledge and her feelz. Not everyone had the RP role models you were blessed with.

    To his credit, Blaximus is providing himself as a role model to young men.

    Then there are guys who marry and figure, “well, I provide a roof. No need to work on me.” He gets fat. She gets fat. It one big happy fat family. Until she’s unhappy.

    That is “provider game”. It worked pretty good until the invention of men’s-fault divorce in the 1970’s.

    That’s why I said boys need to be taught Red Pill AND game.

    This is an interesting point. Many of the religious men who come to terms with the true nature of women, the Red Pill or “glasses” to quote Dalrock, nevertheless find Game to be repugnant. They don’t like the idea of using a woman’s baser nature, or “sin nature”, to manage said woman. To me this looks like just purple pill. But it’s a big big hangup for many men.

    Frankly I don’t see how one can “get” the Red Pill and not “get” some Game as well, not to mention vice versa.

  73. > How many more men would be more inspired to do something with flesh-and-blood women, learn how they tick, develop LEVERAGE with them, if the much-easier option of staying home, jerking it to whatever kind of woman you want, then playing a combat simulator or chatting about stuff on Reddit didn’t exist?

    As a man , I say this :

    If I could meet a flesh-and-blood woman who has not ridden 10-s of cocks before me, and **still has something she can offer me that no other men had [sic.] from her** , then I will find learning how she ticks is going to be extremely enjoyable.

    See the thing is, if I see, that it is the same sxxt that she has already offered to other men, may be even less, then I loose interest. If I however find, that there is something – and that something doesn’t have to be virginity, but some expression, some uncharted territory outside her usual world – that she wanted to explore but did not with another man – I will get turned on. I am a scientist – if I get turned on, then I am ready to put everything in to find out how she ticks.

    Also, I dont play video games. My life, in those terms are exciting enough .

  74. Anonymous

    You keep ducking a simple question?

    Can you answer my question or do you just want to keep embarrassing yourself?

  75. kfg
    The model is not data. It is “papers.” Papers on matriarchal societies.

    They begin emanating from the sociology department of Columbia University circa 100 years ago.

    The first “public” paper was Margaret Mead’s report on Samoa, which is almost pure propaganda, and which she was cultured (i.e. grown in a petri dish) to produce.

    That’s different from what you previously wrote.

    I’ll agree that the model we are seeing peeks of now has been building for some time, a century or so is reasonable.

    Plus I’ll see your Margie Mead and raise you a Marija Gimbutas.

  76. “hey man, look at the stats. We’re all fucked.”

    Just to be clear, and I find I have to reiterate to stay clear, what I have said is, “Joe the Plumber is fucked.”

    The outliers are merely between a rock and a hard place.

    I note that the man, between a rock and a very hard place indeed, who shouted, “C’mon you sons-of-bitches, do you want to live forever!, ” . . . lived.

  77. @AR

    My kids were B13, G15, G17, B19 when I had proof of the infidelity and moved out.

    I don’t have studies but I read a ton on this before I acted. There is a lot of anecdotal stuff on kids that wished their parents would’ve split and not put them through years of Passive/Agrgressive fighting as well as the kids that are devastated.

    As a man all you can do is make the best decision for all involved. For me, I didn’t want my sons seeing me hang around a cheating whore . For my daughters I didn’t want them to see a woman cheat with no consequences.

    Funny thing, I made her tell the kids we were divorcing around the kitchen table the night My PI caught her. The youngest started crying and yelling at my wife, “I knew it, your always hiding your phone, whispering and yelling at us when come in the den.” She never told them why.

    I already knew and needed proof. Turns out they also knew. Good thing I made the “right decision”. I’m 50/50 custody on the kids. Amazing what the threat to show your kids some video will do.

    They all seem to be doing fine BTW.

  78. allmightysynapse, YaReally has some thoughts on this, in previous threads, unfortunately you have to wade through a lot of other discussion to see them.

    Summary: Text game is lame and getting lamer. However, actual physical approach is now even more valuable because fewer men are doing it, so get used to cold approaches day or night. Mystery method never goes out of style because it’s fundamental. You can test this pretty easily in any off campus coffee / juice / lunch joint. Even girls who seemingly have their eyeballs superglued to their phones will do a quick look or glance at any man with even halfway decent subcommunications, and often the second glance is there if you are careful to look for it.

    In grad school I’d be real careful about social-circle game because of the ongoing shift towards “yes means yes (until it doesn’t)”. Lots of institutions of higher ed now have more and more regs limiting any sort of contact, not just between faculty / students but between grad students / undergrads, that goes beyond the most superficial of professional. IOW be a colleague / friend to undergrads, any TA’s or GA’s you may get assigned, etc.

  79. “Sentient”

    Anonymous
    You keep ducking a simple question?
    Can you answer my question or do you just want to keep embarrassing yourself?

    Answered twice so far, same way each time. If you are so butthurt that you have to keep acting like a child, go for it.

    Your whining won’t get in the way of the discussions the men are having.

  80. @alex
    Here’s my post describing pLTRs/oLTRs/etc and the mechanics behind them in more depth:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/2015/8/#comment-rationalmale-114069

    @Rollo
    “understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace”

    To be clear: I’m not “frustrated” with it, I’m just observing it and think it’s absurd/silly, but there’s no “fuck these entitled bitches!!!” or “OH NO THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!” behind it lol These are just objective observations of the changing field, like a scientist observing that mice are responding to different stimulus and what effects that’s having on the colony.

    But around here the assumption seems to be that if you at all even remotely point out something negative then you must be obsessing and freaking out over it and letting it rule every decision you make and cry yourself to sleep worrying about it lol

    “The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s.”

    I’ve met a handful of girls who even at <25yo already have an orbiter locked down to settle with at 30+ when they get off the carousel. Like they'll openly admit it ("oh Steve is for later when I'm ready to settle down" etc), it's a part of their actual conscious long-term strategy.

    "Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest."

    The problem is guys will read her post and write her off as crazy/BPD/whore etc and consider THEIR girl the unicorn/madonna/NAWALT, instead of accepting that most girls will do the same shit if they have to, consciously or unconsciously (with hamster rationalization to justify it so they don't have to feel like shitty people). Just like the War Brides dynamic, it's about optimal survival/replication and if push comes to shove you'll see behavior that you can't imagine her being capable of.

    "The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control."

    It's important to understand that a pLTR in the man's favor is different from a pLTR in the woman's favor. The benefits are all in the pLTR in the man's favor. In the woman's favor it's a cuckold/open-hypergamy situation.

    A pLTR in the man's favor is also easier to make work because Hypergamy helps it (that man being able to get other women is attractive). Whereas a pLTR in the woman's favor (the guy cuts off all his options while she continues to have open options) lowers his value.

    "We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity."

    Despite how people paint my position, I actually agree with this. It IS men's fault, for not stepping up and laying down the law. I agree that men need to lay down the law to regain control of this situation.

    The problem with that that the OMGs don't seem to get because it wasn't how things worked in their day, is THIS part:

    "Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order."

    We've passed the point where men can do the things they need to do to bring order back to the system, because those things are now instantly villified if not by the girl herself then by her entire social networks from family to friends to peers to outsiders commenting on her reddit post asking for advice.

    So those actions now come with massive risks, and those risks carry into making a long-term LTR work.

    Like this, I agree with this completely, and it's a wonderful sentiment complete with Braveheart music playing in the background as we all LARP and raise our swords and shields to the sky hashtag manosphere hashtag real men:

    "There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society."

    But the reality is "unapologetically correcting women" equals losing your career, having your name slandered, losing access to your kids, losing assets/resources, social ostracization, losing access to potential NEW partners, and even potential jail time in 2016.

    Men waited too long. Hitler needed to be killed when he was a baby, once he was in power it was significantly riskier. Same deal here.

    "We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes."

    Sure, you guys first. 😛 (metaphorically, that's the mindset lol)

    Like while I agree with this, this is basically old retired war vets telling young guys to go join the frontlines in a Vietnam style impossible to win war that those young guys KNOW they'll be cannon fodder for. No one's going to sign up for that suicide mission for no personal reward.

    When I see some chick act bratty, unless I'm trying to fuck her I ain't saying fuck all. It's not worth risking ending up in a viral cell phone video on the front page of Gawker destroying all my career opportunities etc

    That guy was lucky as fuck that he had video of the incident, just like Hugh Mungus and the Hula Uber cabbie were lucky their girls were so blatantly bat-shit crazy that a lot of people took their side. But if the girls had done the slightest bit of editing, those guys would have been completely fucked for life.

    Why am I gonna take these risks to correct the shitty behavior of some random girl I don't even know? Now extrapolate that mentality to an entire generation of men.

    That's why I'm pushing coming up with a new solution with less risks, to give men a chance of hope where it might be worth fighting back because there's 1) a codifiable plan/system/strategy for them to follow that makes sense and addresses the realities they're dealing with infield, and 2) a possible personal reward for them (not quite the white pickett fence dream but they might at least get to raise a kid in a stable 2-parent household for as long as possible with minimal risk)

    Men respond to incentives and need plans/strategies. We don't accept "go slaughter yourself because it's the "right thing to do" according to people who act like they know better than you what's for your own good". We grew up on that and it and were taken advantage of and ended up at places like this site because of it.

    @Andy
    "Personally I think that the chances of that happening are probably lower than what YaReally thinks"

    Even if they're lower, which way is the trend going and why would it reverse? I'm thinking long-term here, not just "what about ME?"

    @kfg
    "Answers being provided by men who have the field experience of being fathers, which the PUAs lack."

    Field experience in a field that looks less and less like the field we're currently dealing with.

    @Atticus
    "to banging a 22 year Titled Kilt bartender (Thanks YaReally!)"

    @Blaximus
    "The work. The responsibility. The understanding. The BURDEN."

    Give us a benefit that we can't get without the risks. You took on the burden for a reward: the family life. In 2016 that reward is less and less likely to happen and the severe punishments are more and more likely to happen. But you expect us to have the same mindset you did minus the incentives and with a thousand times the risk.

    "As an ” OMG ” that has virtually given up on trying to help out ( see Andy’s ” what answers ” comment above)"

    None of you have provided anything unique. All you guys do is tell us to look at the thousand year old bible shit, or talk about feels that don't hold up in today's society and get butthurt when we tell you women don't view "wife" or "love" the way your wives did, while SJF posts more chapters from books by other men with as much or more experience than you guys.

    It goes back to what I said months back in one of the many times you old guys were (as usual) being condescending about your amazing experience and wisdom: none of you says anything that we haven't already heard a thousand times before from a thousand other old guys who all think they're telling us it for the first time, or can't read/learn from a thousand other old guys who have as much or more sucess than you and teach it better than you.

    We asked for your legitimate personal advice/experience in the vetting/marriage threads and you gave us nothing except the same stuff we've already heard or can learn from other men (from Blaximus' "you should just know how to vet like men in my upbringing taught me to bro if you don't know how then oh well we'll just laugh at you when you get fucked" to SJF's walls of Franco vetting that we've already read). There's no special magical OMG wisdom to be found here. Just a bunch of crying by red pill men about how we didn't ask NICE enough or let them get away with bullshit like "love" as an answer, and then another wall of OTHER men's writing/experience that we can and have already found/read lol

    So like Andy said: what answers?

    "Trying to explain that seeing your kids sporadically, even 60% of the time is not conducive to good parenting is NOT grasped by the non-parent crowd who inexplicably still profess wanting children at some point."

    No one has ever advocated for absentee fatherism, this is a silly strawman you made up when you clutched your pearls. The current marriage system CREATES men who don't get to see their kids 60% or more of the time. We want to come up with a better system with better odds and less risk.

    @Atticus @Blaximus
    "Then again, a lot of fit, successful guys (like me) end up divorced because of lack of knowledge and her feelz. Not everyone had the RP role models you were blessed with."

    This. Blaximus can't relate to the idea that other men are being raised without the same influences he was raised. Natural solipsism.

    @Blaximus: so you just look at stats that justify your pov/mindset as way to give up without gaining a wider and deeper understanding?"

    You seem to be fine with not gaining a wider and deeper understanding when you promote that getting legally married and promising monogamy are the only way to raise healthy children.

    @Anonymous Reader
    I've come to the unfortunate realization that while this place is great for diagnosis, actual progress probably won't be made here. Too many egos and too much dick-waving to even LET a simple discussion that questions socially conditioned beliefs. But I have some ideas in mind for when I have more free time down the road. 😛

  81. @AR

    I read Dalrock too. Fuck those guys bitching about Game. The Bble clearly spelled it out. Thats how boys were taught Red Pill. That’s all out the window with these “Christians”.

    Even the 2,000 year old rock thanks the Roman church has been poisoned.

    Boys need a Rational Male class as part as Sex Education in High School and a steady diet of Julien vdeos at home.

  82. atticus, don’t see how you could have done anything different. In your case, the damage to the kids is what it is, but could have been much worse. “Cut your losses” in other words, which is what you did.

    I have a friend who divorced his wife after DNA testing showed the second child wasn’t his. He obtained almost full custody of the first child. Haven’t seen him in years, so I don’t know how things turned out, but there was no other path for him. He wasn’t going to stand still for being cuckolded.

    But.

    Between 60% and 70% of divorces are filed by women, the vast, vast majority of those divorces are not for abuse or adultery or abandonment but for “unhaaaapiness”, and those are the frivolous ones, the “frivorces”. I strongly suspect that those are the divorces that chew children up the worst.

  83. @AR: “That’s different from what you previously wrote.”

    I have written of both the model and how the model is being implemented. They are obviously related, but not the same thing.

    An example of how the model is being implemented is men being saddled with literally impossible debt by the Family Court. It is an overt transference of wealth and property from men to women.

    Data is hard to come by here and we often need to rely on the anecdotal reports of men, because much of the information is a legally protected secret.

    “I’ll agree that the model we are seeing peeks of now has been building for some time, a century or so is reasonable.”

    The roots go much further back, but the model, as a semi-formal entity and with a plan for promulgating it, began to be put together a bit before WWI. The nihilistic angst of Western culture after the war put legs under it.

    One of, if not thee, chief promulgators, however, was a 19th century Prussian.

    Have I mentioned before that all roads lead to 19th century Prussia?

    ” . . . Marija Gimbutas . . .”

    The geneticists now say that her Pontic Steppe hypothesis is correct. However, they also note that most modern Europeans are descended from a later migration.

  84. Atticus
    I read Dalrock too. Fuck those guys bitching about Game. The Bble clearly spelled it out. Thats how boys were taught Red Pill. That’s all out the window with these “Christians”.

    Heh. Truth. Proverbs has plenty of reality about women, from the “My husband has gone and I have fancy sheets on the bed” to “better to live in a tent on the roof than in a fancy house with a contentious woman”.

    Those guys, we know who they are, are just neo-Victorians who still want a Pure Girl they can put on a pedestal. Trouble with men like that is, they often wind up as church leaders of some kind.

    Boys need a Rational Male class as part as Sex Education in High School and a steady diet of Julien vdeos at home.

    Personal question, you don’t have to answer. Have you considered getting copies of Rollo’s book for your older offspring? Not just the oldest young man, but his sisters as well? Just wondering.

    I’m trying to think of ways to get those books and some other ones into the hands of young men whom I am not related to, it’s challenging.

    But I don’t see any other way. Blaximus is leading by example: teach one-on-one. Years ago at a different site a number of men hashed over the notion of “movement! We gotta build a movement!” and it came to nothing. There’s lots of reasons why, starting with masculine psychology, but I won’t waste the time / space.

    Just this: red pilling is a grassroots thing. It’s going to be done down low. It may even become socially unacceptable, then even illegal in time.

  85. What is actually hard to relate to is the recognition of male influences I’ve had growing up, and then the outright rejection of those same very basic principles when I attempt to share them.

    Fear and capitulation is never a strategy that will succeed.

    Fight or die.

    But don’t complain.

  86. @sjf- how is not letting your daughters date in high school preparing them for their future happiness? It seems to do so for you now.

  87. @YaReally

    “None of you have provided anything unique.”

    I told my boys, you marry, don’t expect cash support from me. I’ll help you out if there is no marriage but marry and you will inherit nothing. I won’t give away another part of my fortune to the girl that gives you the best blow job (in those words).

    My son meets a girl in college who’s parents (divorced) are worth five times me. I told him I was good with him marrying her unless he signed a prenup.

    I’m auditioning for the new show, “Gold Digging Men”

  88. YaReally
    @Anonymous Reader
    I’ve come to the unfortunate realization that while this place is great for diagnosis, actual progress probably won’t be made here. Too many egos and too much dick-waving to even LET a simple discussion that questions socially conditioned beliefs. But I have some ideas in mind for when I have more free time down the road. 😛

    As frustrating as it can be, this place is way better now than it was back when the old feminists like Bytes and LyingTree were posting their tl;dr rehashing of 1970’s crap. Not to mention some previous situations that were mostly soap opera.

    It may well be that the mandatory 3-way is the least bad option, for now, for most men. If that’s the case, then arming as many men with Game as possible is the thing to do, for now at least. Just don’t expect provider game to have any effectiveness, regardless of what various elders in and out of churches may say.

    Taking up food gardening would be a good idea, too, because in the longer run various utilities we all just expect to be there might become less reliable. Puerto Rico’s little adventure in electrical non-generation is a straw in the wind, maybe.

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