For Better or Worse

betterorworse

Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.

The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.

The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.

Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.

For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.

As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.

Instant Gratification

In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.

It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.

As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.

On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.

The Open Hypergamy Future

I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.

Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?

My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.

People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.

[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.

The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.

The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.

Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.

Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”

We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.

Primary LTRs

The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.

Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.

I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.

The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.

It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.

There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.

We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.

5 2 votes
Article Rating

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

Speak your mind

1.2K Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

This is why the discussions turn repetitive, straw mannish and circular every time.

What is it about my repeatedly saying I DO NOT PROPOSE MARRIAGE that is so hard to remember??

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Dr ROBIN BAKER . . . has also published around 100 scientific papers and articles and his work and ideas on the evolution of human behaviour . . .”

. . . rely on cogent criticism to ensure that they are correct as possible.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Taking up food gardening would be a good idea . . .”

Running the numbers on how many daily calories, year round, you need to extract from a garden against how many calories you expend each day while working a garden for your living will probably leave you a bit on the unhappy side.

Atticus
Atticus
6 years ago

@AR I gave my oldest RM1. Asked him if he read it a month later, he just shrugged. Not sure and I did not badger him. Also don’t know if he needs it. He plays AAA hockey. Every summer from 8th grade through Juniors, he had a different girl, every year at the start of hockey season he dropped them. Used to piss my wife off, she actually said I’m worried he’s gay. I told her she’s cute when she’s stupid. I talk about men and women all the time with the girls but I haven’t given them the book.… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
6 years ago

Kfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o__CKKFPvtc
“. . . rely on cogent criticism to ensure that they are correct as possible.”

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

YaReally I’ve met a handful of girls who even at <25yo already have an orbiter locked down to settle with at 30+ when they get off the carousel. Like they'll openly admit it ("oh Steve is for later when I'm ready to settle down" etc), it's a part of their actual conscious long-term strategy. Open hypergamy, aka the Sheryl Sandburg plan. Always amusing to me when some churchgoing, earnest, beta man stumbles over this fact and gets all wide-eyed in shock and surprise. The thing is, it’s not new. An older relative remarked to me a few years back that… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

PS: That was an Upper Middle Class church lady, too. Married to a scientist.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Blaximus

What is it about my repeatedly saying I DO NOT PROPOSE MARRIAGE that is so hard to remember??

Dunno. Who here is trying to marry you?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

kfg Running the numbers on how many daily calories, year round, you need to extract from a garden against how many calories you expend each day while working a garden for your living will probably leave you a bit on the unhappy side. Depends on a lot of variables starting with climate. Just the other week I was listening to an elderly man talk about what living on Prince Edward Island was like when he was young – “Boy, did I get tired of turnips!”. Contrast that with the coastal Carolinas or south Alabama or central Florida, rather different growing… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Blax

“What is actually hard to relate to is the recognition of male influences I’ve had growing up, and then the outright rejection of those same very basic principles when I attempt to share them.”

Gold.

Same thing with pointing them to 1,000’s of years of wisdom… They want a “unique” New New Thing… despite the fact that the biological makeup of women is unaltered…

http://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1398441468i/22011690._UY200_.jpg

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus ““What is actually hard to relate to is the recognition of male influences I’ve had growing up, and then the outright rejection of those same very basic principles when I attempt to share them.”” 1) We aren’t rejecting them, most of the time we AGREE with them. But like I said in my last post: “The problem with that that the OMGs don’t seem to get because it wasn’t how things worked in their day, is THIS part: “Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Even someone with a basement full of rice and beans might find it useful to be able to eat fresh green stuff, right?” Did I leave my back door unlocked or something?And it’s specifically lentils. Highest bioavailable protein of the legumes, least cooking time, with no soaking. Cooking in an insulated container reduces actual heating time to the time to actually boil water, and thus fuel usage. I’ve thought about this shit. You will starve to death on greens. Despite what you have heard, they are nutritionally void. Think 40 lbs of spinach, per day, per person, year round. Think… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

“have heard a thousand times over but still isn’t any less applicable in 2016 culture”

Should read “have heard a thousand times over but is still just as “less applicable” in 2016 culture.”

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Ya

“as you continue playing chess on the 8×8 board you bought in a previous generation.”

Just a willful naivety or perhaps arrogance on your part… Same XX and XY chromosomes… Same Prime Directive… You should be happy – everything has been field tested after all… so your risk is lower…

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

” . . . the chess board is no longer 8×8 and can’t tailor your wisdom to the new board that’s in an L shape.”

In the current shape and state of the game, a pawn that does not convert is fucked.

90% of the pieces are pawns.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

Context: YaReally-OMGs discussion I think that a sometime commenter…Liz…once remarked that her husband “saved” her, i.e., helped her grow up. I suspect that Dread played a significant role. Liz is 40-something as I recall. Her context was not the “Old Set of Books.” Liz is proof that a woman CAN be taught to practice self-restraint. Where else have we heard of a situation where a woman was trained by her husband…? The Taming of the Shrew OMG, Shakespeare is REALLY relevant. YaReally, he is. The plan still works, but you need to recognize the risks and understand the plan. Petruchio… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“The Taming of the Shrew”

That’s the way it’s done.

Try it with a current 24 year old. No, really. Go ahead and try it.

theasdgamer
6 years ago
Reply to  kfg

I doubt that any current 24 yo is any worse than Kate was.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

You will starve to death on greens. Despite what you have heard, they are nutritionally void.

Good thing that minerals and vitamins don’t matter.

Use butter, beef, eggs and liver as your standard for “nutritional density.”

Don’t recall mentioning nutrional density per se. You wouldn’t be listening to the voices in your head coming out of your cellar, would you?

I’m thinking it might be prudent for men to learn how to obtain food from sources other than stores. If you disagree with that, then just say so.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

adsgamer The Taming of the Shrew In a previous thread I mentioned a friend / sometime co-worker who is married with multiple children. I pointed out that his marriage appears stable, and she’s got little time to be at risk over some orbiter or past flame, due to child care. I also pointed out that she is in his church with his family (parents, sister, maybe a cousin) and that pretty much her entire social life is tied up in his family and the church world. That’s one way to make it work. The fact that she’s embedded in a… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

adsgamer
I doubt that any current 24 yo is any worse than Kate was.

Sure. Kate had hundreds of people at her beck and call 24/7 plus a lifetime of affirmation, just like current 24 yo’s, uh huh.

And modern law is just like Elizabethean era law, right?

Radium
Radium
6 years ago

@kfg

“Inheritance will be matrilineal.”

Matriarchies have very little material wealth to inherit. The best example of a matriarchy is the US inner cities. Yeah, this is where we are all heading provided the government can keep empowering all of those strong independent women. In the inner cities, it’s not uncommon for kids to not know anything about their siblings on their dad’s side. Nearly all family knowledge is passed on through their mother’s side of the family. There’s virtually no material wealth to pass onto the next generation.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

A huge part of my upbringing was to not surrender yourself because things are, or appear to be against you. This is a small part of what I try to share here among men. Saying it’s ” too late ” or ” impossible ” because of the date on the calendar is truly, truly missing the point, and I don’t grasp that mindset. Fight or Die. Fear ir NOT a strategy ever. This is not a function or the times or the FI per se. It is a function of fear and giving up. And before it gets said, as… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Good thing that minerals and vitamins don’t matter.” i.e., you will continue to listen to the voices in your head and ignore what I have said. We’re not talking intersexual relationships here. We’re talking nutritional survival, the parameters of which have not changed. I have more than 50 years of survival experience across a range of environments, including alone in the woods. I have provided you with actionable, OMSG information. It is up to you whether you use it or not. “Don’t recall mentioning nutrional density per se.” And not taking it into account is a fatal error when the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Matriarchies have very little material wealth to inherit.”

That’s right, and in previous threads I have pointed out that all men have to lose is high civilization.

” The best example of a matriarchy is the US inner cities.”

No, it isn’t. That is the result of social engineers going in with a jack hammer, because they lacked the skill and patience to use a scalpel and sandpaper.

The best examples of matriarchy are traditional clans who evolved that way over extended time.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

I think where this is going, realistically, is a gradual slide into a combination of (1) single motherhood being the supermajoritarian norm and (2) the remaining “marriages” morphing into the normalization of not only serial AF/BB but open cuckolding/separation of father familial role from genetic siring role. The hurdle between now and that scenario is getting the mass of men to go along with this, but I don’t think we’re all that far from that happening today, really. On the first element, most guys are already going along with this in the social milieu where it already predominates. Porn is… Read more »

T.
T.
6 years ago

Ant colonies and bee hives are matriarchal

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” It goes back to what I said months back in one of the many times you old guys were (as usual) being condescending about your amazing experience and wisdom: none of you says anything that we haven’t already heard a thousand times before from a thousand other old guys who all think they’re telling us it for the first time, or can’t read/learn from a thousand other old guys who have as much or more sucess than you and teach it better than you. We asked for your legitimate personal advice/experience in the vetting/marriage threads and you gave us… Read more »

sfer
sfer
6 years ago

I think the two choices are:

1) don’t have kids; or
2) have kids and take your chances like everybody else

Maybe there is some excellent way to do 2) right (“be alpha” probably), but I don’t know anybody who has done it w/o being alpha to start with.

Major Styles
6 years ago

This post comes just in time… Yesterday, I was informed that a lifelong friend of the family (a woman who is now 45) filed for a frivorce against her “super nice” husband. She spent the marriage refusing to cook and clean, and eventually his acquiescence to her feminist training could not stop her from joining “all the single ladies.” Another broken home with two children wondering why Mommy left the family. There’s little doubt that the social and technological changes that you mention helped to foster the destruction of their family. And more specifically, her inability to process it correctly.… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Novaseeker Why would these guys go along with this? Again, the change will be gradual, not sudden. It will gradually be peddled as being “not uptight” and “not controlling” and “modern” to accept that “no person can satisfy all of another person’s needs” and, importantly, it won’t be peddled as cucking, but rather as mutually open (which it will be in theory as well), and there will be tremendous social pressure on guys to conform to this emergent new norm. Where i disagree with this is the feeling in the ballz… No matter how hard “they” try and peddle it… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” 2) So if that’s all you have to offer, okay then, thanks for trying. We just thought you had more to bring to the table than the same stuff we already knew and have heard a thousand times over but still isn’t any less applicable in 2016 culture.” 2016 culture. To those reading along – Personally I am NOT offering the same old things that you already knew. If you indeed already knew it, you wouldn’t even be here in the FIRST place. My arguments are being rephrased into a narrative that is not one that I am communicating… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Sfer

but I don’t know anybody who has done it w/o being alpha to start with.

Have hand… and all that.. but w/e that’s been said before.

But really, you have the tools (TRM, sphere etc.) to try and become alpha before you start…. Now will “every guy”, not by a long shot, just like with everything else in life… PUA will serve as a sterling example. despite all that is available and paid mentoring… recidivism is high.

Because it is hard work and requires skill development… even when it is all spelled out for you.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“I only ask that other readers who are genuinely trying to sort shit out hear me with open ears and a measure of UNDERSTANDING.”

I can only speak for myself, but I am REALLY trying to understand what you’re saying dude. I think it boils down to: “impose your will”???

I just don’t see why talking about ACTUAL ACTIONABLE details is “thrashing in the ocean”

scray
scray
6 years ago

@OP Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them root cause of like 99% of all this nonsense: I WILL BE THE ALPHA LEVEL 999 EXCEPTION! no, you won’t. but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows. that shit doesn’t really exist. the only arrangement that works for… Read more »

Atticus
Atticus
6 years ago

@Rollo

What’s you’re real Art? Your brand stuff?

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Major Styles

And more specifically, her inability to process it correctly.

Her inability to process it correctly? This is a great example of a guy failing…

1. ““super nice” husband. ” – nice guys finish….?
2. ” refusing to cook and clean” – vetting? Holding her accountable?
3. “his acquiescence to her feminist training” – His frame? Hand? MPO?
4. “all the single ladies” – dread? Not sure if this is a GNO reference but if so – enforcing boundaries?

He culpable here?

The Question
6 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi “@YaReally, I understand what you’re saying about the inherent risks involved in correcting women. And yes, it does sound LARPy, but we are fast approaching a point where men will have nothing to lose by not correcting women.” Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but what keeps most men’s mouths shut on these issues is the threat to his job that provides for his home (via mortgage) 401k, Social Security, retirement savings, and/or pension at half-salary. To challenge the FI is to suffer persecution that nowadays can lead to job termination, trumped up charges, jail time,… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

YSGs: This shit sucks.
OMGs: Get better.
YSGs: Don’t give us that old “Man Up,” crap. We’ve had enough of that already. How do you think we got here?
OMGs: OK. How do you want to do it?
YSGs: Get better.
OMGs: *Facepalm*

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Scray – I would say your root cause analysis is flawed… IME the root cause is men thing that cats will act like dogs. Most men feel uncomfortable thinking Alpha thoughts…

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@The Question:” . . .what keeps most men’s mouths shut on these issues is the threat to his job that provides for his home (via mortgage) 401k, Social Security, retirement savings, and/or pension at half-salary. To challenge the FI is to suffer persecution . . .”

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive . . .”

theasdgamer
6 years ago

Bear in mind that many things a man must do to maintain frame in a modern marriage are abusive according to Federal guidelines. Surely, and marriage is rape. If you raise your voice or even criticize your wife, she may just call 911 and report you and you may be toast…the police are wising up where I live and so are prosecutors. You still need to keep your wits about you. Fight Club has always been with us…it just used to be more secretive and probably had fewer members than today…laws and culture helped to keep its members low. Dread… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

That is why men will go to absurd lengths to avoid confrontation

Avoiding confrontation is Red Pill. In the Taming of the Shrew, Petruchio NEVER confronted Katerina. She tried to start a fight and he deftly avoided it by reframing and maintaining engagement. Of course, Petruchio expected Katerina to try to start a fight and was prepared…in fact, Petruchio manipulated Katerina into trying to start a fight by creating drama. Petruchio continually kept Katerina off balance.

The Question
6 years ago

@ kfg

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive . . .”

“Imagine the Castle like an enclave where anyone, and I mean anyone, who collaborated knew he’d be shot. They would be able to move outside those walls. That’s how serious I am.” – Michael Collins

The Question
6 years ago

@ theasdgamer “Avoiding confrontation is Red Pill.” When it’s done with the proper frame. But when a man avoids challenging a status quo out of fear, it’s not Red Pill. Example: A husband sees his wife conditioning their son for an emasculated existence in service to the FI. She teaches him to be an emotional tampon, that its strange he likes shooting guns or working on cars. She’s basically telling him its wrong to be masculine and encourages him to be feminine. The husband doesn’t confront her or correct her and protect his son from these lies because he’s afraid… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ The Question ” Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but what keeps most men’s mouths shut on these issues is the threat to his job that provides for his home (via mortgage) 401k, Social Security, retirement savings, and/or pension at half-salary. To challenge the FI is to suffer persecution that nowadays can lead to job termination, trumped up charges, jail time, divorce, or a combination of all three. Either way, it represents a total personal catastrophe. That is why men will go to absurd lengths to avoid confrontation in these areas and comply with the ever-increasingly mentally ill… Read more »

thedeti
thedeti
6 years ago

As for the “corrections” Rollo wrote about, Fred Flange and Novaseeker have described how this will play out, more or less. Anon Reader has everyone’s number, pretty much. The top 25 to 30% of men will get all the sex they want in quality and quantity. Those men will marry if they want; and if they do marry they will be able to cheat occasionally. The remaining 70 to 75% of men will have sex lives resembling that of the average high school sophomore. He’ll get a little sex here and there, interspersed into months- and years-long dry spells. That… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Is confrontation avoidance really Red Pill??

Really?

So by default, is it Red Pill to just ” take it “?

Always?

Hmmmm…. nope. Not buying that. Won’t advocate for that.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@Question

Of course, if you surrender frame, you will lose all battles…if you fear, you have lost frame…a Red Pill man will remove his son from his wife’s influence as much as possible if she is shaming masculinity. If she’s doing that, likely it’s because he lost frame long, long ago. The solution, of course, is…wait for it…Dread.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@Blax

Is confrontation avoidance really Red Pill??

Really?

So by default, is it Red Pill to just ” take it “?

NotReally. Reframe and maintain control. Manipulate your woman just like Macchiavelli said good leaders need to do.

Petruchio didn’t just “take it”. He reframed and maintained control.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Asd

I was speaking generally.

scray
scray
6 years ago

If you truly have abundance in your life, you won’t WASTE TIME on confrontation. this is what I’m talking about….marriage and monogamy just fuck you up. if you had 30 other women who are as good or better than the one in front of you and they were all just DYING to spend time with you….you’d literally just kick whichever one of them gave you the SLIGHTEST bit of drama to the curb IN AN INSTANT and MOVE ON TO THE NEXT. the fuck do I care what some chick thinks about me? why engage her nonsense at all? there.… Read more »

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

test

The Question
6 years ago

@ theasdgamer @Blaximus I think we’re envisioning very different scenarios. I’m thinking of situations where men have a moral responsibility to act and do not out of fear. When fathers refuse to stand up for their sons and allow them to be emasculated, whether it be their own wife, other women, or the education system, that is a failure. When they refuse to warn their daughter about the wall or the dangers of chasing after cads or impress upon her the evils of feminism, that is a failure. Imagine how much could be solved if men were free to speak… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@Blax

Me too. I reference Robert Greene’s “48 Laws of Power”, Law #9, “Win through actions, never through argument. Dale Carnegie wrote that we should persuade without bruising the ego of others, which is essentially the same thing.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Rollo ” On the basis of these factors, I expect that more than one-third of all men between 25 and 54 will be out work at mid-century. Very likely more than half of men will experience a year of non-work at least one year out of every five. This would be in the range of the rate of non-work for high school drop-outs and exceeds the rate of non-work for African Americans today.” Although I am by no means a fan of Larry Summers, he is making a point that I’ve subtly pointed to a few times in various… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ The Question

” Imagine how much could be solved if men were free to speak the truth to their own children about the things Rollo has written on for years without fear of what others might do.”

I do it every day.

But I have been socially conditioned to abhor fear.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@Question

Imagine how much could be solved if men were free to speak the truth

Don’t speak the truth directly…people can’t accept it…reframe and use indirect methods…Dread will help you regain frame and then you can proceed to use nonverbal means to correct Mom…if Mom starts in shaming masculinity, you interrupt with something like, “I forgot that we were supposed to play catch”, and you remove the boy from the toxic message. Both boy and Mom will get the message. Dread will help create an environment where Mom will fear trying to dominate you. Dread comes first….

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

@Blaximus “If I see giant puzzle pieces missing in your arguments, and I try to point them out, and all I get is ” Lol’s ” in response, then NONE OF THE PEOPLE READING THE COMMENTS CAN EVER GET A BALANCED ARGUMENT.” If we see giant puzzle pieces missing in your arguments, and we try to point them out, all we get is whining how we reject answers we want, how we should just listen and understand and not question what a name on the screen named Blaximus says, how were all pussies, some more whining, then you get upset… Read more »

thedeti
thedeti
6 years ago

Rollo: Looks like Larry Summers stepped in it again. Didn’t learn his lesson the first time. To ask the questions as Summers did is to answer them. We get what we incentivize. The biggest mistake our feminist overlords made was presuming men would just keep doing what they had been doing — going to school, getting training, earning 400% to 500% of what they needed to survive, and getting married by age 27 or so. The “correction” you’re talking about is starting to be heard, and it is taking the form of men just ‘checking out’. Captain Capitalism wrote about… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

The Question

Imagine how much could be solved if men were free to speak the truth to their own children about the things Rollo has written on for years without fear of what others might do

But they are free… for now…

Work – be self employed.
Pew – Start your own church.
School – private school or hire tutors
Home – easiest of all…

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” a) you are not able to articulate your points well enough
b) I am not able to understand your objectively understandable arguments well enough
c) we do not speak the same “language” and this discussion is moot”

Or d) You are just a stupid sock puppet.

The Question
6 years ago

@ thedeti The problem I’m seeing with the economic outlook in your last paragraph is that those who don’t work won’t have money to spend. Those who don’t have money to spend won’t be able to buy. The U.S. government has already added trillions to the economy in the form of artificial credit in order to keep the current system afloat, but it’s on its way down/ I have no idea what will come of this, but it’s clear that having large populations that don’t work isn’t sustainable in the long run. If they don’t produce and they can only… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Or d) You are just a stupid sock puppet

LOL

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” YaReally is advising absentee-fatherism according to you, YaReally advised Andy to nuke his marriage according to you so it is a tit for tat I guess. I personally think think that it is because we do not speak the same language.”

And there you have it. Circular. I’ve never said YaReally is advising absentee fatherism. Not once. Ever.

She my point about reframing my argument to say something it’s not?

Or no?

The Question
6 years ago

@ theasdgamer

That is sound advice. I’ll have to save that. I’m a bachelor with no kids, but that can come in handy if things change.

@Sentient

Work – be self employed
Pew – Start your own church.
School – private school or hire tutors
Home – easiest of all…

Not all of those options are practical for the average man. Trying to find a fellow Red Pill in my area, let alone a Christian Red Pill man, is difficult enough if I was to form a church.

We have options, but they are limited.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@deti

Women aren’t as productive as men are, and cannot be. Women — even hard driving, hard charging career women — won’t be as productive as the average working man was.

Mostly because it’s a lot easier and more fun for a girl to advance by lying on her back under her boss. Who needs those long hours at the office working in your office?

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
6 years ago

” The only way to fix this is teach every boy about the Red Pill and make them learn about tight Game ” Here’s what I have been doing: 1) Since he was 3 I have been paying him 1 dollar for every girl he talks to, at 13 now he has no approach anxiety. 2) Taking him to the Gym and working out with him since he was about 9 (email Rollo a pic years ago). 3) When at the movies and he wants to know what time the movie starts I have been getting him to find and… Read more »

MrT
MrT
6 years ago

I might be misrepresenting you, true. Ill quote everything next time. What about the other one?

thedeti
thedeti
6 years ago

@ The Question: “The problem I’m seeing with the economic outlook in your last paragraph is that those who don’t work won’t have money to spend. “If they don’t produce and they can only consume because those who produce subsidize it, then what use are they?” The same thing that has happened to unemployed, underemployed and underskilled black men will happen to similarly situated white men. They’ll go on the dole in larger and larger numbers. They’ll subsist on welfare money, government largesse, homeless shelters, and the goodwill of family and churches. Some will fall to drugs and alcoholism. Some… Read more »

The Question
6 years ago

@ thedeti

That may have been the case if we weren’t already on the verge of collapse from all sorts of debt.

We really are living in a period of total artificial prosperity. The national debt alone is $19 trillion. Then there are the trillions in unfunded liabilities for Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security. Then you have the student loan bubble. Then you have the personal credit card debt. Most Americans don’t have $500 in their savings for an emergency.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-handle-a-500-surprise-bill/

I wonder if things will fall apart before we get to the scenario you describe.

The Question
6 years ago

I also forgot to add all the unfunded public pension systems. The state and local governments are allowed to use much more optimistic rate of growth projections than private sector pensions, which is why private pensions are disappearing.

Adam
6 years ago

Women wanting their daughters to grow up to be single mummies like them remind me of a common truth known to pimps everywhere – if a teenage girl falls into casual prostitution so she can buy herself nice things, it will not be difficult to push her into drawing her friends into the same trap. The reason is because misery loves company. The girl will feel better about her poor decision to become a whore if her friends are stuck in the same boat with her. However, while this is true I think it would be a radical move for… Read more »

thedeti
thedeti
6 years ago

@ The question: I know about all that, as you do. It will be sustained as long as possible, by borrowing and taxing, and cutting services. More and more men will go on the dole. Creative advocates for them will claim sexism and racism and give me the goodies like you gave the ghetto guys and the ratchets and the baby mamas. To do otherwise and to keep Beta Bob from his government goodies will be racist and sexist and age-ist and all other manner of -ist you can think of. I don’t know how long it can last. But… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ The Question

http://www.money-rates.com/personal-finance/employee-pension-plans-disappear.htm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewbiggs/2016/04/25/are-disappearing-pensions-hurting-the-economy/#32e94863d364

It’s mostly about risk, but mainly about profit increases.

Don’t forget, hundreds of giant pensions got wasted during the ” housing crisis ” ( lol ) when securitized mortgages were sold as sound investments to entities that included large pension funds.

they lost their asses ( assets ).

YaReally
6 years ago

@Rollo It’s up to each man to determine how much he has to lose. A MGTOW who just checks out of society DOES lose out having and raising a kid in a 2-parent household, but as long as he keeps his mouth shut he at least keeps his career, money, home, reputation, personal health, freedom, etc A guy can lead a pretty comfortable life with that stuff. Again you guys are sitting in a comfy air-conditioned office telling the troops “just run into the minefield “hey, you got nothing to lose!”” Uhh no, we have plenty to lose. Men respond… Read more »

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
6 years ago

” It’s been going on AT LEAST 35 years. It can go on another 20.” It will be lucky to last another 5 years, we are already inside the event horizon for a global debt crisis and a collapse in the financial system*. Here is why: 1) Credit creation is a feature of fractional reserve banking (Economics 101) 2) Credits must equal Debits (Accounting 101) Corollary Financial system credit creation = non-financial system debt creation. *Trucking companies cant fuel their rigs = food supply gone in 2 weeks, societal meltdown. I have seen this first hand, Darwin was cut off… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@MrT Cosign with everything you said. “But maybe other guys here can get something out of a discussion about that.” This is the surreal part. We can’t even have a fucking DISCUSSION, that’s how sensitive these guys are. Literally the second there’s even the START of a discussion or the topic comes in, they have to jump in and shit all over and it argue semantics and make fun. Exact same shit women do when they visit red pill forums…just complicate and squash discussion to prevent progress. But I can see how it would be scary for men to talk…I… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago
Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” If you’re implying that’s me as a sock puppet, I don’t need sock puppets, I’ll call you retarded flat out if I think you’re retarded. But it shows where your head is at…so far up your own ass that you can’t even comprehend that people might actually disagree with the Great Blaximus (who says show no fear of any social/career/personal consequences, but doesn’t use his real name/photo on here hmmm “rules for thee, not for me” again? I mean, what, are you SCARED of SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES?).” Lmao. Ya, do even read the stuff you type? The scared thing, that’s… Read more »

The Question
6 years ago

@thedeti

“It’s been going on AT LEAST 35 years. It can go on another 20.”

It’s why I am skeptical it can keep going on much longer. If we have little to no debt collectively I could see this lasting several generations.

But it very well might last 20 years. We’re really in uncharted territory. No nation that is the world’ reserve currency has engaged in degree of currency increase we’ve experienced.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago
YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus
“But men are going to lose all of their shit, including jobs and everything else, if they do not fight back.”

Then wouldn’t it be nice if we could discuss a lower risk higher odds strategy for them to try to fight back with.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” that’s how sensitive these guys are . Literally the second there’s even the START of a discussion or the topic comes in, they have to jump in and shit all over and it argue semantics and make fun. Exact same shit women do when they visit red pill forums…just complicate and squash discussion to prevent progress. But I can see how it would be scary for men to talk…I mean, what if we found out there WAS a better way with lower risk and higher odds? Then what would a guy who’s identity is based around being a successful… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

For the record- I base my identity on being myself. Imagine that. I don’t fit into others boxes, no matter how hard they push.

Advise other men to do the same.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

” Then wouldn’t it be nice if we could discuss a lower risk higher odds strategy for them to try to fight back with.”

Been doing that for pages upon pages.

Jeremy
6 years ago

OT: Rollo and anyone… I’ve been watching this channel for a while now. There are a number of channels of attractive couples sailing around the world, attempting to supplement their cruising kitty with youtube income. Some are successful (usually because the chicks are f-ing hot), some are less so. Different approaches reign. However, this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvC6orAapK1PAj9k84mVohA (Sailing Miss Lone Star) Has essentially just documented a married couple blowing up. I’d be interested to know what people think. The husband is a vet with PTSD (or so it’s claimed on the show, I don’t know him personally). She’s now claiming he… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Blax Yareally “” Then wouldn’t it be nice if we could discuss a lower risk higher odds strategy for them to try to fight back with.” Been doing that for pages upon pages.” Since you refuse to accept what we are saying Yareally, what have you got now? What do you have that restricts hypergamy and FI sexual options, allows you unfettered access to your children, provides a means to verify that the money you are spending on your children is actually going to their welfare, prohibits other men (or womyn) from raising your children and does not openly support… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

The Question “Not all of those options are practical for the average man. Trying to find a fellow Red Pill in my area, let alone a Christian Red Pill man, is difficult enough if I was to form a church. We have options, but they are limited.” Practical? How was survival ever practical? And the average man is a bad cohort to be a part of. No shit, things are hard man. Hence doing the work. There is not a single thing on that list Question that I or my close friends haven’t done (Done all but the church thing,… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@YaReally At the end of the day all it takes is one accusation to destroy your life for good with ZERO guaranteed return/benefit on taking that risk. Yeah, kind of like stepping off the curb to walk across the street. There’s ZERO guaranteed return/benefit on taking that risk. lol Silly argument. I’ve been accused of taking advantage of a drunk girl. All of my fraternity bros. except her first cousin and all of her sorority except four of her friends sided with me. She was a devout church girl who got drunk all on her own and wanted to go… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Queen:_Sex_and_the_Evolution_of_Human_Nature

“Then wouldn’t it be nice if we could discuss a lower risk higher odds strategy for them to try to fight back with.”

Don’t go down the Red Queen’s corridor. A minefield is a cakewalk compared to that laser shit.

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Jeremy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jqGw9R84rk

Some lessons… Don’t marry a girl 6 months after you met on Match.com, who has a kid with another dude, don’t “convince” her to join you in your dream to sell everything and sail around, don’t get on board with her when she is telling you she has the captain’s hat and then don’t punch her in the face…

You might compare and contrast with the La Vagabonde couple with your RP goggles on…

http://sailing-lavagabonde.com/

Report back…

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Fear stifles our thinking and actions. It creates indecisiveness that results in stagnation. I have known talented people who procrastinate indefinitely rather than risk failure. Lost opportunities cause erosion of confidence, and the downward spiral begins.

Charles Stanley

YaReally
6 years ago

@Sentient @Blaximus “Since you refuse to accept what we are saying Yareally, what have you got now?” You’ve said nothing that men can apply to 2016’s culture that we don’t already know. You guys are ridiculous. “WHY WON’T YOU GUYS LISTEN TO US” “Because what you’re saying isn’t relatable” “BUT WHY WON’T YOU LISTEN TO US??” “Because what you’re saying isn’t relatable” “BUT JUST LISTEN TO US” and on and on. Either make an effort to understand the world we’re dealing with when we try to explain it to you, or accept that your advice is going to be of… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

I ask YOU what do YOU have and you say:

“It’s fascinating how against even the DISCUSSION you guys are. ”

oh the laughter… I’m about to piss myself…

I will take that as you have nothing…

YaReally
6 years ago

@Sentient
“I ask YOU what do YOU have and you say:”

Check the marriage thread, I started laying out a ton of stuff with Anonymous Reader and Trent Lane.

Oh right, you didn’t read any of that. You were too busy waving your dick around.

1.2K
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
%d bloggers like this: