Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

I revisited the topic of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) last Saturday on Rule Zero. I don’t like rehashing old debates I’ve learned will ultimately go nowhere. You simply wont reach most people who don’t want to be reached. Once they’ve had some experiential lessons in life, reinforced it with the tribalistic need to affirm the beliefs derived from that experience and then invest their egos in them it becomes kind of pointless. I’m not saying just give up on people, far from it, but do understand what you’re up against. This is why I say unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work, and a lot like triage. Know what’s worth expending energy for.

Most men, and nearly all women, don’t form a belief set based on multiple, independently funded, peer reviewed studies or statistical analyses. We go with experience first and then modify it from there.

I did a bit of preparation for this talk. My schedule last Saturday only permitted me an hour so I wanted to be succinct and throw out at least something new to the conversation. There’s a lot of tribalism in the Manosphere today and it’s no surprise that MGTOW as a tribe in growing – but likely not for the reasons most MGTOW would be willing to admit. MGTOW is becoming atomized and commercialized in the same manner as I predicted the Red Pill would (and has) last year.

What that means is MGTOW is rapidly becoming the same commercial vehicle for grifters that the Red Pill was just a year and a half ago. Life Coaches, Relationship Experts, Fitness Gurus, even Christian men’s ministry pastors are all looking online to find out ‘where have all the men gone?’ When men were found in the Red Pill this is where the grifters would coalesce. Thus, you had every ‘brand-of-me’ self-improvement hack calling himself “red pill”. A few of them still do. A few of them read verbatim from my book(s) and plagiarize it as their own. But more now I see these same grifters referring to themselves as MGTOW without realizing (or even caring) what it really means to men.

MGTOW is the new ‘brand’ that lifestyle ‘coaches’ are adding to their twitter profiles and YouTube channel About pages. They see the potential for growth by association. Even if they get owned in their comments and feeds, adding the tag MGTOW will draw clicks. A few of these ‘coaches’ had a familiarity with the tribe and decided to finally commit in the hopes that it would boost views, others are former ‘power-of-positivity‘ life-coaches who slide into MGTOW because the definition of what makes a man “go his own way” is so loose now that it can align with virtually anything the guy had written about before his new affiliation.

It’s a real short step from “Make yourself your Mental Point of Origin” to “Make yourself #1 in your life” and then to “Go your own way.” I’ve had at least four “dating experts” (one female) claim Mental Point of Origin was their own idea in their subscriber emails as recently as August. Grifters used the Red Pill and are now using MGTOW to legitimize their brands today. In 2015 the MRAs decided to appropriate the Red Pill as their own brand to name a feminist’s “journey of self-discovery” movie The Red Pill. This appropriation is continuing with MGTOW now.

As I said on the Red Man Group back in May, the Red Pill is going to have a real PR problem in the coming year. Everything I predicted in my State of the Manosphere address a year ago has come to pass and I predict it will only intensify in the 2020 election cycle. The Gender War needs a convenient, easy-to-hate villain to point to in order to reinforce the Future is Female narrative.

Very soon MGTOW will have the same PR problem. And once the next Eliot Rodger or Alex Minasian incident occurs you’ll see these grifters scatter from MGTOW like roaches when the lights come on. When there are dead women on the sidewalk somewhere, and the MSM is using terms like ‘MGTOW’, ‘Incel’ and ‘radicalization’ that is when all the ‘tribes’ of the Manosphere will throw each other under the bus. That’s when you’ll know who was ‘playing MGTOW’ for likes.


One thing this re-debate of MGTOW has made me reconsider is whether men are adapting to the new realities of the sexual marketplace or just looking to make their necessities a virtue. At its simplest MGTOW is men refusing to make women the measure of their lives, and then molding their lives to their own plan. This pairs nicely with virtually every pet ideology and ‘positivity’ grift in the ‘sphere today. Even Tradcons will agree with MGTOW if it means “Be the best man you can be“. It agrees with Mental Point of Origin. It agrees with Roissy – “You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.” It agrees with “Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

If that was all there was to MGTOW it would simply be Red Pill. What “MGTOW” life-coach grifters don’t realize is that MGOTW is a derivative of the Red Pill. I’ve always argued that once a guy becomes Red Pill aware he cannot help but live in some different fashion. Even the guys who go into complete denial can’t unsee the truths of intersexual dynamics. It’s what you actually do with that new awareness that sets apart Red Pill praxeology from MGTOW in practice. There’s more to MGTOW than just refusing to make women the measure of a man’s life – it’s also deciding what actually is deference to women. And that’s where it becomes highly subjective.

In my last post I outlined how women were upset there weren’t enough ‘eligible‘ men to marry in the current (westernized) sexual marketplace (SMP) today. Of course the two most common responses were either:

  • Women are the victims of the SMP they created. Women’s solipsistic, socially enabled entitlements to an ‘economically attractive’ man (a man who exceeds her own productivity by 58%) only proves the point that women’s social media bloated egos have made them unrealistic tyrants. Now their beliefs and actions have come home to roost.
  • This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?

For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. The Gender War of today exists because of a systematic segregation between men and women (don’t @me with the cultural marxism/’evil juice’ shit for the moment). Honestly, I’m sick of reading about how negative it is to merely point out the realities of this ‘gender cold war’ by Success Porn grifters, but is not MGTOW an adaptation to this segregation? Is not MGTOW an exacerbation of this segregation. When I read mantras like ‘Dogs, Dudes and Dolls’ it sounds an awful lot like ‘Cats, Girlfriends and Vibrators’.

Is MGTOW an adaptation to the conditions in a sexual marketplace that was (and still is) contrived by feminism/gynocentrism?

The following quote is from a long time commenter and friend Deti. This was from a larger discussion that began here if you want to get some context. Sorry guys, I just don’t have the space to repost the whole thread, but I don’t want this to get lost. Hopefully, it will inspire further discussion in this post’s comments:

I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.

About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Women responded to and lived within that milieu in a number of ways.

Using soft power, manipulation, deceit, subterfuge, behind the scenes machinations. Most women were more or less OK with marrying an OK guy, having OK sex, and living an OK life.

Of course, sometimes women cheated on the downlow. Sometimes women cuckolded husbands. I mean real actual traditional definition of cuckolding, which is a married woman getting pregnant by an Alpha and passing the child(ren) off as the Beta Husband’s. There’s no way to know how often that happened, but it wasn’t really rare – Maybe anywhere from 5 to 20% of children then weren’t fathered by their bio-moms’ husbands. In rare cases, not marrying and becoming spinsters, living as bohemians or as “favorite cousins” or “favorite aunts” with male relatives, working as teachers or seamstresses or some other job, and being live in nanny/maid. In rare cases, divorcing and living off family money or a husband’s alimony money. Living as widows and not remarrying.

The point is that women learned how to adapt. There are a lot of reasons for that, but they did adapt.

The main responses men have used today to adapt to changing circumstances have been:

  1. Game/PUA/Seduction – Use the changes to men’s advantage and go for easy sex and the bachelor lifestyle.
  2. MRA – Fighting the changes to advocate for either equalizing the laws or rolling them back to a return to Marriage 1.0 and pre-sexual revolution status.
  3. MGTOW – Check out of the new system, refuse to support or participate in it, and eschew relationships with women to varying degrees.

About, oh, 20 years in, I think we can safely say that option 2) is dead in the water and has been for some time. About the only real reforms here are that divorce and family laws are slowly, very, very slowly, moving toward 50/50 residential custody and away from alimony (except in the case of longer term marriages with breadwinner spouse/dependent nonemployed wife). Unless you have been married more than 20 years and support a housewife, you probably will not be paying alimony except for temporarily. Thats about the entire sum and substance of how “equal” it’s going to get between men and women.

That leaves 1) Game; and (3) MGTOW.

It’s hard to tell what will come out of this. I think we can say:

• Marriage 1.0 is dead and we are never going back to it for at least 2 more generations. If you think you’re going to have a “traditional marriage” where you don’t have to do much to maintain it or you can let up on your attractiveness levels, think again. Because that is not going to happen. If you’re going to marry a woman, you need to improve your attractiveness, marry a woman who is not financially dependent on you, and cultivate your own life separate and apart from her. You need a contingency plan in the event the marriage goes south. And with all that, you need to consider whether you want to risk bringing kids into the mix. You absolutely need a prenuptial agreement, even if it gets judicially torn up or modified later.

The bottom line is, people are still marrying, it’s just that it’s all being pushed out later and later, and people are staying single longer and spending less time married. Many women are meeting the men they eventually marry in their early to mid 20s, and then marrying in their late 20s and early 30s. That’s a paradigm that’s increasing in frequency; this idea of long term dating and engagements lasting 2 to 5 years while both the man and woman establish their careers.

If you want long term relationships you should consider marriage alternatives like living together, or being exclusive while living apart. You absolutely must avoid at all costs these polyamory/polygyny situations, and open marriages. You absolutely must avoid women who want to continue AF’ing it even after they marry. That must be an absolute no go, not an option, ever.

• Men have to improve and increase their sexual attractiveness to create, maintain, and sustain relationships with women. You can’t let up here. That’s IF you want relationships with women.

• More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.

For most men, avoiding women entirely, except for paying hookers, is a no go. The thirst is that strong. The male sex drive is that potent. Most men want to have some contact with women, even if it’s just random hookups now and again. And the only way to do that is to make yourself as sexually attractive as possible. That just is so. Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women. So if you want sex partners, you have to make yourself sexually attractive. And you have to know male and female sexual nature, so that you know what you’re getting into, you know what you’re seeing, you know what women are doing, and you know what women really mean when they talk.

For men, improving one’s own attractiveness increases one’s power in the market. It increases his ability to control some of the selection process. It gives him an abundance mentality. It gives him the power to walk away from situations that disadvantage him. It gives him the ability to tell women “no” and to reject women who cannot or will not give him what he wants and needs.

On the other hand, going your own way can also increase your power in the market. It maximizes your control over your own life. It sharply reduces your responsibilities to others, and increases your opportunities. It frees up your resources to expend the way you want. Sharp reductions in responsibility means a sharp reduction in the needed resources for day to day living, meaning you can work less and increase your leisure time.

I think that more and more men will go pure MGTOW, which is essentially “make the best of a tough situation, be single, and don’t have a family. At least that’s better than getting divorce raped and it’s less work than going to the gym, getting in shape, and eating clean. This way I can eat what I want and work 30 hours a week, and live by myself in my apartment”. It’s kind of similar to women 100 years ago, where the path of least resistance was for Bertha BigGirl, Martha Dumptruck, and Plain Jane to “find a decent, OK man to support me, and probably have at least 3 of his kids. At least it’s better than living with Mom until she dies, and then having to live with my brother and his wife, and taking care of their kids.” And similar to the spinster, the MGTOW will be low status, or at least perceived as low status. But for the spinster and the MGTOW, their lifestyles will be at least better than whatever else they could have gotten.

Guys, Nova is absolutely correct in that men by and large are not adapting.

I think that what’s going on is that many men are saying “want to stay the same, don’t want to do a lot of work, but I still want women to be attracted to me and to be able to date a lot and eventually get married and have a family like (a) mom and dad had when I was growing up; or (b) like I didn’t get to have growing up.” Well, you can’t have that, at least not without working for it. If you want something you’re going to have to work for it. If you want women and sex, you’re going to have to make yourself attractive to women. And the way you’re going to do that, the only way to do that, is to stand out. And the way you stand out is by improving every area of your life – your job, your body, your finances, your lifestyle, your hobbies, your social acumen, and everything else that involves you going through your life.

The funny thing is that when a man stops caring so much about it, forgets about women, and sets about improving his life, he starts attracting women.

That’s the current state of things, I think.

I don’t disagree that we’re presently at a turning point in intersexual relations. After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable. Now that we’re 50 odd years past that point we’re figuring out how reproduction, love, marriage, and something as simple as boy-meets-girl is going to look for future generations. The internet and a social media acculturation on a global scale has seen to it that it will likely never look like it did under the old social contract. There’s a theory that post-agrarian societies experienced a similar shift in intersexual dynamics in our ancestral past. Socially enforced monogamy was the obvious intersexual shift.

Right now we’re seeing a similar shift in intersexual relations. Is it simply better for men and women to live segregated lives? I don’t believe so, but it seems like a larger cultural narrative believes it’s time for both men and women to go their own ways. Until one side concedes, fuck any notion of evolved complementarity is the narrative I guess.

I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting. They always have. It’s that the adaptation is counter to what we might hope is the natural order between men and women.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

547 comments on “Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

  1. BubbaGumpShrip
    Any season of Survivor provides enough evidience.

    Lol. The lesson from “Survivor” is: Women will live in grass huts with some men and won’t complain any more than they would in a McMansion. Your “dog logic” is borderline LARPing. It is a Fail.

    Read more of this site. Use the Archives link and the Search window.

    Start with “War Brides”. Get a pair of The Glasses, see clearly

  2. kfg
    Related to Wildside’s book recommendation:

    My tl;dr of that link is now to distrust neuroendochronology as a “science”. Because once again, female ingroup preference at work.

  3. I haven’t cut and pasted in a while. But I feel the urge to now. I’m waiting for my pressure cooker to naturally release the pressure on my heirloom beans and Costco rotisserie chicken chili.

    And I just remembered that I forgot to pluck my latest October harvest of shiitake mushrooms at my farm yesterday. While I was done drying my latest October cash crop.

    This came up when discussing Deida’s The Way of the Superior Man.

    I had anger when beta. No longer…

    Because this, in LTR Game:

    Chapter 15

    Stop Hoping for Your Woman to Get Easier

    A woman often seems to test her man’s capacity to remain unperturbed in his truth and purpose. She tests him to feel his freedom and depth of love, to know that he is trustable. Her tests may come in the form of complaining, challenging him, changing her mind, doubting him, dis- tracting him, or even undermining his purpose in a subtle or not so subtle way. A man should never think his woman’s testing is going to end and his life will get easier. Rather, he should appreciate that she does these things to feel his strength, integrity, and openness. Her desire is for his deepest truth and love. As he grows, so will her testing.

    Every moment of your life is either a test or a celebration. The same is true about every moment with your woman, only doubly so. Not only is her simple existence a test for you, but one of her deepest pleasures in intimacy is testing you, and then feeling you are not moved off course by her challenge.

    The most erotic moment for a woman is feeling that you are Shiva, the divine masculine: imperturbable, totally loving, fully present, and all-pervading. She cannot move you, because you already are what you are, with or without her. She cannot scare you away, because you already penetrate her in fearless love, pervading her heart and body. She cannot distract you, because your one-pointed commitment to truth will not bend to her wiles. Feeling this hugeness of love and freedom in you, she can trust you, utterly, and surrender her testing in celebration of love.

    Until she wants to feel you as Shiva again. And then the testing will begin anew. In fact, it is precisely when you are most Shiva-like that she will most test you.

    Perhaps you have been working toward some financial goal, and finally you have succeeded. After months or years of effort, you have creatively earned a large amount of money. You feel happy, full, successful. You feel great. You come home to your woman and want to share the news with her.

    “I just made a million dollars today”

    “That’s nice.”

    “That’s nice!!?? You know how hard I’ve been working for this.”

    “I know. It feels like I haven’t seen you in months. Did you remember to pick up the milk on the way home?”

    “Oh, sorry. I forgot. But who cares? We could buy a dairy farm now!”

    “I asked you to pick up the milk three times this morning, and I put a note on your briefcase. How could you forget?” “I said I’m sorry. Look, I’ll go get the damn milk….”

    Why is she being this way? Because she simply wants to deflate your success? No. She is challenging you because your success doesn’t mean shit to her, unless you are free and loving. And if you are free and loving, nothing she says can collapse you. She wants to feel you are un-collapsable, so she pokes you in your weak spot.

    Of course she knows how much this moment of success means to you. This is precisely why she is negating it. Not because she wants to hurt you. But because she wants to feel Shiva. She wants to feel your strength. She wants to feel that your happiness is not dependent on her response, nor on you making a million dollars. She wants to feel you are a superior man.

    It’s a tall order to be this free, and in your more mediocre moments you will wish your woman would settle for less. But if you are a man who is living his fullest, willing to play his edge and grow through difficulties, then you will want her to test you. You may not like it. But you don’t want her to settle for some bozo that depends on his woman’s response to be happy. If you are aligned with your mission, you are essentially happy, even though times cycle between difficult and easy. You don’t need your woman’s strokes to fulfill your mission. It still feels good when she strokes you, but you don’t need mommy anymore, telling you what a good boy you are. And your woman doesn’t want you to need mommy. In fact, it sickens her.

    If your woman is weak, she may settle for a weak man, and therefore play into your need to feel like a good boy. But if she is a good woman, a strong woman, she won’t tolerate your childish needs for a pat on the head, collecting bigger toys, and being king of the mountain. A good woman will love the childlike part of you, but she wants your life to be guided by your deepest truths, not your untended childhood wounds. She wants to feel that at your core you have grown beyond the need for kudos and million-dollar toys. She wants to feel your self-generated strength of truth.

    So she will test you. She might not be fully conscious of why she is doing it, but she will poke your weak spots, especially in moments of your superficial success, in order to feel your strength. If you collapse, you’ve flunked the test. You have let your woman deflate you. You have demonstrated your dependence on her for external validation. Even if you just made a million dollars, you are a weak man. Your woman cannot trust you fully.

    If you remain full and strong, humorous and happy, your truth unperturbed by her testing, then you pass the test.

    “Honey, I’ll get you some milk, all right,” you say as you sweep her off the ground and lay her on the couch, laughing, kissing, looking deeply into her eyes, and “milking” her happiness with the confident loving of your caresses.

    She can relax and trust your Shiva core. She can surrender the tensions around her heart. You are trustable. You don’t need her validation in order for you to be loving. You simply are loving. The truth of you is love. Your fullness is independent of mommy. You are not only a man, you are a superior man: a man who does his best to live as love in the world and in his intimacy, a man whose heart remains open and whose truth remains strong even when his woman criticizes him, a man who can find the humor in forgetting to pick up the milk on a day he made a million dollars.

    This is the kind of man your woman can trust. Now, the moment is a moment of celebration. Now, she can relax and truly join in your jubilation, knowing you are not dependent on her praise for your happiness. It will last, perhaps, ten minutes. And then she will test you again.

    It never ends. A woman will always test her man for the pleasure of feeling his strength in loving, his capacity to transcend nuisance, his persistence in his own truth, and his capacity to share that truth in love with her, even when she is complaining—especially when she is complaining. Her complaint is the beginning of her pleasure. It is not true criticism, but a test of your Shiva-hood. The criticism is entirely dissolved in love as soon as she feels your humor and happiness in the midst of the poke.

    It never ends. This is the secret. You can’t get out of it. Finding a different woman won’t get you out of it. Therapy won’t get you out of it. Financial or sexual mastery won’t get you out of it. Your woman is testing you because she loves you. She wants to feel your truth. She wants to feel your love. And she wants to feel that your truth and love are stronger than the barbs she can throw at you. Then she can relax and surrender into the polarity of man and woman. Then she can trust you.

    The most loving women are the women who will test you the most. She wants you to be your fullest, most magnificent self.

    She won’t settle for anything less. She knows it is true of you. She knows in your deepest heart you are free, you are Shiva. Anything less than that she will torment. And, as you know, she’s quite good at it.

    Yet, if your purpose is to be free, you wouldn’t have it any other way.

    1. @SJF. That is a good book. Deida gets some criticism from the more hardcore parts of the community (he’s purple pill etc) because his book talks alot about the spiritual side of sexual dynamics. But that chapter you quoted is an excellent understanding of ‘shit testing’.

  4. I guess I am what some would call a “level 1 MGTOW”, or at least to some extent I am. I reject marriage and cohabitation, and that’s about it. Ironically, a big part of the reason for that is that my entire life experience tells me that this is the best way to enjoy healthy, fun, honest relationships with women. All my relationships have been all of those things – until we moved in together (or just split up). So I’m not walking away from women, I’m just walking away from unnecessary entanglement. In all likelihood, any relationship is going to grow stale eventually. So why make it unnecessarily complicated to end it?

    When I decided that I didn’t want to have children, it was like a huge load of my chest. Why? Because it meant I didn’t have to do any of those things. I didn’t have to create a “stable two-parent household”, I didn’t have to corporate with some woman and I didn’t have to let anyone encroach on my space. I also don’t trust women to keep wanting that over time, but more importantly: I don’t trust myself to keep wanting that over time. And when I look around me, or think of my own experiences, I don’t see how that’s anything but 100% rational. Why plan for something that’s either going to be highly unlikely, or highly uncomfortable?

    I’d rather enjoy relationships for as long as our biological imperatives allow us to enjoy them. I don’t take it personally if anybody wants out, I get that, and I would like the same courtesy extended to me as well. Therefore: No marriage, no cohabitation, no owning expensive shit together. All of that is just clutter, pressure and unnecessary hassle that will drive a person to stay in a relationship he or she doesn’t really want to be in. I don’t want that for myself, and I don’t wish it upon my girlfriend either.

  5. Now That was clear, honest and without any buffers and misdirection/misunderstanding.

    Thank you very much.

  6. Asd

    There’s nothing wrong with a man deciding he doesn’t want children because it’s not something he really wants to do. Imagine what things would be like if every single man was forced to have kids, regardless of how he felt about the whole thing.

    That would be a true clusterfuck and this place would become unlivable.

    Imo, that’s different than a guy saying ” I want kids, but I’ll never have them so that my wife and the state can take them away from me ” or ” I won’t have kids because feminist “.

    Not having kids via a conscience decision ( not based on ” somebody ” doing something to you ) is totally reasonable and rational. Some guys don’t care about ” muh lineage/genes “. I have 2 kids, and that wasn’t ever a consideration. I had them because I wanted them, and there were zero fucks given about any dire possible consequences – and there weren’t any. Fatherhood doesn’t necessarily elevate a man, nor does it lower him. I know quite a few fathers that should’ve worn a fucking condom.

  7. Blax, no one is forcing anyone to have kids…but if someone chooses to “win” the Darwin Award, as I’ve said before, they will get shit from me.

    It’s the FI pressuring betas to not reproduce. The “overpopulation” shit test…which is a crock….men should do better…

    …as I’ve said before, a man needs to clean the cobwebs out of his brain before making serious choices about what to do with his life…I aim to shine light on cobwebs…which irritates the eyes…no one said that swallowing the Red Pill is easy…

    …if you know that you have bad genes and ought not reproduce, that is an entirely different matter…but those situations are few and far between…

    …my joints all work at my age and I got Mrs. Gamer pregnant the same month we tried, even though she was 30+, so my genes are pretty good…I should have had a shitload of kids…I guess I don’t want other men to make the mistake I did…and western countries’ populations are dying out…which isn’t good for my granddaughter…

    tl;dr men have the right to make shitty choices and I have the right to give them shit if they have cobwebs in their brain

  8. That scottish Daygamer has been in prison for 9 months whilst awaiting charges for ‘harassment’. (which sounds like approaching a hot 17 year old and trying to get her number from what I gather) Seems odd. I’d assume that’s longer than any actual sentence would be.

    But then read this this morning!

    Potential 10 years for this teen for touching a girls arm? Kind of baffled. Is it that bad in the UK? I often see Field Reports from UK guys on reddit/seddit, and it seems they get much harsher, faster rejections, even in bars, than other posters. Rarely see much success. Any UK guys on here posted cold approach FR’s? Is it all about looks over there? (girls just don’t let you run your game if they’re not into your looks? Especially young ones?)

    1. @Wentworth. Female drinking culture is big over here. Along with prosthetic lips, big false eye lashes, fake tan and eye brows. What man cares about eye brows?????

      I have been told to fuck off many a time after just saying ‘Hi’. And some of those Fuck offs have been screamed. They are usually 6 – 7s who are unable to focus on anything other than Instagram. It is definitely an issue with girls in their party years, 22 – 25. Alcohol and being privelaged is a wonderful combination.

      However they do seem to have superpowers that prevent hyperthermia. Wearing nothing but a small belt and a couple of straps covering their nipples and yet the single digit temperatures, on a cold winter evening, does not phase them. And yet the unstobble approach of the wall is far from their mind.

      The best women I meet in my city are not from the UK and they are far hotter. Hungarian, Romanian, Polish, Italian etc One of my filters for women nowadays, before I approach, is to listen to her speaking. If it is a local accent. Next!

  9. “…from the more hardcore parts of the community…”


    I find that funny. Hardcore. Ego-investment.

    There is an easily determined measure of success “in the community”…

  10. ROLLO


    Have some sympathy for readers on phones… right now I have to scroll to the bottom of a few articles to reach new comments. takes forever. Consider clipping the articles with a “read more” link after a few para’s or moving new comments up on the sidebar above categories and blogroll. How many of the Blogroll are even active anymore?

    Also from Field Reports you do not get new comments sidebar at all.

    Let’s make this thing a bit more usable…

  11. Culture

    [Blax – PS, moar evidence that nobody is going out to bars and clubs and all guys are home jerking off…]

  12. Mister Lauer….

    The subject of his ‘rape”

    Whoa… the fuck? NOW you see why his wife was so disgusted with him…


    At least she looked human at one point…

    Now don’t get me wrong, I detest Matt Lauer, for many many things…

    But this is interesting… Her quote on the night of her purported first anal sex encounter with Matty…

    ““It was non-consensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent,” she reportedly tells Farrow in the book. “It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn’t want to have anal sex.””

    I came to your room and was too drunk to say no… so rape. also bunghole was closed. so rape.

    Matt’s take

    ““In a new book, it is alleged that an extramarital, but consensual, sexual encounter I have previously admitted having, was in fact an assault. It is categorically false, ignores the facts, and defies common sense,” he said. “I had an extramarital affair with Brooke Nevils in 2014. It began when she came to my hotel room very late one night in Sochi, Russia. We engaged in a variety of sexual acts. We performed oral sex on each other, we had vaginal sex, and we had anal sex. Each act was mutual and completely consensual.””


  13. @Sharrukin

    In other words, even if the average man manages to be above average to get that average women, what he gets isn’t worth very much. And then he has to put everything on the table and bet that a woman who has been ditching or failing at relationships for the past ten years is going to make it work with him.

    The average man is programmed to happily be that walking ATM machine, “not see” that he isn’t a real pick for her even now that her market value is falling or has collapsed already, and “be happy” with that.
    Interestingly enough, it’s she who is the disgruntled one in the couple, who is ready to cuckold/leave him, who will file for divorce when she no longer is able to overcome her disgust of him, and so on.
    It’s she who will be the more abusive of the two in their relation. It’s she who will claim, when the time has come, that she has been abused.

  14. @Sentient

    I came to your room and was too drunk to say no… so rape. also bunghole was closed. so rape.

    Unfortunately, men are indifferent to the woes of other men. Therefore these rape allegations, which are akin in function and form to the accusation of being a bourgeois conspiring against the People that were levelled all the time against anyone in People’s Republic for the best part of the past century, are going to continue. Actually, the trend is going to grow.
    All things do, when they come with rewards and without costs.

  15. @ronin

    It cannot be supposed that male Birds of Paradise or Peacocks, for instance, should take so much pains in erecting, spreading, and vibrating their beautiful plumes before the females for no purpose. We should remember the fact given on excellent authority in a former chapter, namely that several peahens, when debarred from an admired male, remained widows during a whole season rather than pair with another bird.

    Nevertheless I know of no fact in natural history more wonderful than that the female Argus pheasant should be able to appreciate the exquisite shading of the ball-and-socket ornaments and the elegant patterns

    on the wing-feathers of the male. He who thinks that the male was created as he now exists must admit that the great plumes, which prevent the wings from being used for flight, and which, as well as the primary feathers, are displayed in a manner quite peculiar to this one species during the act of courtship, and at no other time, were given to him as an ornament. If so, he must likewise admit that the female was created and endowed with the capacity of appreciating such ornaments. I differ only in the conviction that the male Argus pheasant acquired his beauty gradually, through the females having preferred during many generations the more highly ornamented males; the æsthetic capacity of the females having been advanced through exercise or habit in the same manner as our own taste is gradually improved. In the male, through the fortunate chance of a few feathers not having been modified, we can distinctly see how simple spots with a little fulvous shading on one side might have been developed by small and graduated steps into the wonderful ball-and-socket ornaments; and it is probable that they were actually thus developed.

    Everyone who admits the principle of evolution, and yet feels great difficulty in admitting that female mammals, birds, reptiles, and fish, could have acquired the high standard of taste which is implied by the beauty of the males, and which generally coincides with our own standard, should reflect that in each member of the vertebrate series the nerve-cells of the brain are the direct offshoots of those possessed by the common progenitor of the whole group. It thus becomes intelligible that the brain and mental faculties should be capable under similar conditions of nearly the same course of development, and consequently of performing nearly the same functions.

  16. @Palma. I’m always well dressed on a night out. Sports jacket. Shirt. Smart jeans… And a top hat. I have a good physique as well. I am over exaggerating about the severe reactions off women. But I have been told to fuck off a number of times. You know Northern girls, if they are having a bad night 🙂 It’s funny when I turn around and my mate has his arms out emulating a plane crashing.

    When I go out I am just going out with mates and having a good time and not running game. I talk to any women in my vicinity. I’m very prosocial and like talking to women. I think I’m past that age now where I must ‘get off’ with a woman when I go out.

    However, I can see how young men running game would have a hard time in today’s sexual market place. It’s a warzone out there.

  17. Blax

    Don’t worry, ADJ and his girls are going to Make Women Great Again.

    I think you can figure out how that’s going to happen…

    [Hint – many of his guys, including himself, are experienced cucks…]

  18. @Palma – I would say it is an actual direct fuck off, then you are (probably) not going to get that girl. Not impossible, but hard – the best strategy for that is to turn to a girl nearby and build up social proof with other girl(s) until the girl who told you to fuck off starts giving proximity or IOIs again – but not guaranteed of course. There was an old Heartiste post about “How to get a No girl” or something where YaReally had great advice on this.

    PS – I’ve been told to “fuck off” exactly once. And that wasn’t even a direct approach – it was a drunk girl in night game who was obviously having a bad day and told me that when I did some situational opener at the bar. I think everyone gets it occasionally due to sheer bad luck or wrong place/wrong time but if it’s happening regularly (as opposed to normal rejections which are common enough) then there is something wrong with your vibe and that needs to be addressed.

  19. @Palma – no. You’re talking about staying in the same conversation and talking to your target’s friend. That’s a classic MM approach (and line).

    It’s a good option if the target’s rejection has left you room to stay in the conversation. If she’s screaming “fuck off” at you and she means it – aka a hard no – then it’s not really possible to do that.

    You need to build social proof with OTHER girls and let target change her mind about you.

    It’s not easy and it has a high failure rate – but it’s possible.

  20. About Mr. Lauer,

    wasn’t there a somewhat recent catchphrase used to legitimize sodomy, “keep the government out of the bedroom”? What happened to THAT?

    If a woman voluntarily enters a men’s bedroom/home (or voluntarily allows the men to enter her bedroom/home), that’s the limit of the State’s (or anyone else, really) knowledge. After that, unless it’s in exceptional circumstances (hidden cameras, independent reliable witnesses), it is not possible to prove rape beyond a reasonable doubt. It has nothing to do with “letting rapists get away” it’s centuries-old legal protections that were hard won.

  21. Everyone assumes women are adapting just fine. Well if that were the case there wouldn’t be so many women popping anti-depressent pills, a lot more than before.

    1. @Jay Fink. Indeed Jay. I have had depression all my life. But I love my life now and I manage depression without medication. I don’t see it as a crutch. It pushes me to be better because I don’t want to spiral back into dark thoughts. Depression is in the back of my head whispering ‘You are not in control of your life, I am’. But I just sweep it aside and hit the gym. Depression pushed me to find the Red Pill.

      I am a big advocate of helping men with depression. Men are resilient and if you give them the right tools they can pull out of it and manage depression and make their lives better. Rollo’s books are proof of the right tools for the right job.

      As for women, jeez. Women can become depressed at an early age, due to emotional trauma, carry that into maturity and do something stupid like become a prostitute or sugar baby which only compounds that depression 10 fold. Suffering from BPD/HPD they feel love can only be obtained through sex. They are unable to form pair bonding with a man and any man who shows her genuine love is immediately rejected because she sub-consciously believes she is not worthy of genuine love.

      So, the sexual revolution has created a generation of empowered, independant women. The irony, is that it has took 1 step forward 2 steps back. Women now feel entitled but at the same time empty, not in control of their own lives and depressed. The sexual revolution promised so much but did not deliver on its promise. Women have been given the keys to the kingdom but have made themselves sick like a kid who eats too much candy. Emily Pankhurst would be turning in her grave knowing that, what she fought for is to allow a woman the freedom to become a Sugar Baby.

  22. Ranger

    “Reliable witness” …

    Don’t you know women posses a natural truth? Believe women!

    “Brooke Nevils is a credible young woman of good character. She came to NBC News an eager and guileless 20-something brimming with talent,” Curry tweeted — the day after it surfaced for the first time publicly that Nevils was Lauer’s accuser.

    “I believe she is telling the truth,” Curry added of Nevils, who told her story to Ronan Farrow in his explosive new tome, “Catch and Kill.””

    So there… That’s settled then. And don’t try any of that “yes you came up to my room and agreed to suck my married cock and get fucked but when I stuck it in your ads – now THAT was rape?” Type of bamboozlement, you liar…

    Ann Curry believes her. This is well settled now.

  23. anti-SJW trigger warning

    From The Who’s “We Won’t Get Fooled Again” song (1971):

    Violence will be used to support lofty ideals and eliminate old morals and religion…

    “We’ll be fighting in the streets
    With our children at our feet
    And the morals that they worship will be gone
    And the men who spurred us on
    Sit in judgment of all wrong
    They decide and the shotgun sings the song
    I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution…”

    Your SJW leaders will betray you and embrace corruption…

    “Meet the new boss…same as the old boss”

    And the Red Pill solution is to do what you can…for yourself and your immediate family…

    “No, no! I’ll move myself and my family aside
    If we happen to be left half alive”

    Rock music prophets saw it and warned long ago…the idealists are the easiest to fool…then they become the tools of villains…and your ideals become shit in practice…

  24. Now we get to the heart of the affair… Learning opportunity.

    “I admit, I ended the affair poorly. I simply stopped communicating with her. Brooke continued to reach out. She admitted to NBC at the time she filed her complaint that she called me late at night while I was home with my family in an effort to rekindle the affair. But I attempted to go back to my life and pretend as if nothing had happened. I understand how that must have made her feel. However, being upset or having second thoughts does not give anyone the right to make false accusations years later about an affair in which they fully and willingly participated.”

    Ye Olde Skool PUA – “Leave her better than you found her”…

    Yareally on aftercare “Egg McMuffin”…

  25. Actually I’d love to see Matt sit down with Rollo on one if his video casts. He could go “Breaking Bad” or “Sherman McCoy” and become a powerful advocate.

  26. @Palma – indeed.

    In my experience (certainly true the one time it happened to me) plus what I’ve seen elsewhere is that instant “fuck off” hard nos are rarely to do with you. It’s just her emotions erupting based on already having had a shit day or her grandfather dying or being fired or being approached by 20 weird betas in an hour or whatever – you’re just the final straw that causes the “fuck off”.

    So no, it won’t be just your approach or anything you did wrong that was so bad.

    of course you can and will be rejected all the time for all kinds of reasons – but it won’t be with a fuck off.

  27. Sentient,

    The accuser is, obviously, not an independent reliable witness. I was thinking things like roommates or neighbors.

    But I’m sure you (and everyone reading here) know that well.

  28. Sentient
    Ann Curry believes her. This is well settled now.

    “I thought Matt was an Alpha hotty when we were covering the Olympics so I went to his married-man room and let him do me and even do me in the butt although I didn’t like it much and I thought that real loud and maybe said something at the time but now it turns out he’s just another married guy who is sorta boring and reallly Beta so MeToo kinda like raype at least for the buttsex part”.

    Or some similar hamsterbation. And Team #BelieveWomen backs her up, so Team White Knight does also. Lauer is guilty of Weinsteining or worse. Case closed, no appeal possible.


  29. Oh, yeah, forgot:
    Her consent to go to Lauer’s room and get in bed may have been enthusiastic enough but her consent for buttsex not so much – failure to obtain Enthusiastic Consent.

    Remember when Rollo pointed that out as a new standard? Are we there, yet? Or just getting close?

  30. Palma to Culum
    Wondered how it had turned that nasty…

    Not from a simple hello surely??

    Likely goes beyond just the words he’s saying. How’s he saying them? He should check his subcommunications. How he is moving / standing / vocal tonality / facial expression / arm position etc.

    When I find that everyone around me is being terse in speech, even short tempered, barking words out…it might just be they are reacting to me.

  31. Sentient
    Now we get to the heart of the affair… Learning opportunity.

    Interesting excerpt. Reveals a bit more than Lauer intended, too.

    He’s blue pill, he didn’t really think through his affair but just blundered into it like a high schooler. Obviously he made an impression on her, and failed to manage either his or her expectations.

    Simplest solution would have been to just not go there. Really. He’s probably realizing that the sex wasn’t really all that hot anyway, just hotter than what his wife is willing to provide.

    But….having gone and Done It, thinking that “hit ‘n run” would work was really dumb. Because he wasn’t thinking, he was emoting “OMG I banged a 20-something but now I’m home and need to be all normal and pretend it never happened”. Or something along those lines.

    Stuff like this has been happening for a looooong time, but only in the current climate can a short term fling on travel turn into a major crisis. Either own it or shut up about it. Geeze.

    It’s a funny juxtaposition of the post-60’s sexual Revo combined with the post 70’s feminist Puritanism. “Funny” odd but also “funny” hahahahahahah, you dumb “elite journalist” doofus.

  32. Lol @ Blaxie Wonder… still doing concerts, Bro?

    Blaxie and “Game”, lol

    …is the dick just for pleasure, or does it have some other purpose…trick question, lol…

    …if men don’t wanna reproduce, something about them is surely fucked up…and it’s probably their mind…but men should just do what they wanna do…without any introspection…because the FI and others don’t put shit in their brains…lol…


  33. Now we get to the heart of the affair… Learning opportunity.

    The whole Lauer story is like something a good playwright adapted from reading all the TRM essays.

  34. Hi

    Fuck Off

    yareally had a really great discussion here:

    See Direct/Indirect openers

    Switch to more self amusement openers. “Are you local cause I can’t fuck locals”

    Likewise if Fuck Off again self amusement as already suggested above

    On Matt, Sentient nailed it. As soon as I saw it was regret, I knew Matt must have ruined the aftercare. Dan Savage has the campsite rule: “the older or more experienced partner has the responsibility to leave the younger or less experienced partner in at least as good a state (emotionally and physically) as before the relationship”

  35. “I can’t decide the channel”

    Doesn’t matter, so long as it stars Meredith Baxter, just to wrap up a neat little package (she came out as gay to Laur).

  36. From Rollo’s Twitter feed, Palestinian men (high on the oppression grievance stack at the moment) become white if there’s a feminist Highlander in the room (Buchanan is a name from the Loch Lomand area, where people don’t get much more melanin deficient), so she can stay on top the oppression grievance stack:

  37. @cyfox

    Simple. It’s preemptive alienation made to help cunts piss off men(not all types of men). It’s for dykes that don’t even have orgasms to troll their betabux. Or their Betacuddlebux.

    Same shit new flavor.

  38. @cyfox

    That link shows how far women need to go to assure their victimhood.

    Consensual: yes! Orgasm: yes! Positive experience? No, don’t fe good about it, please support me through this troubling time.

    Disgusting. Why give away any power to such easily malleable humans.

  39. Beers

    The majority
    of the time, a woman’s orgasm is an involuntary reaction to stimulus, physical or mental. Yes, sometimes a woman can have an orgasm ” against her will “, positively or negatively. It’s not necessarily about victimhood per se.

    It’s possible to get a woman to orgasm without having physical contact withher, or without her physically touching herself. Understand that men and women have a different wiring schematic. Her ” orgasm ” bears no resemblance to yours

    There’s a lot of truth to the saying that a woman’s biggest sex organ is between her ears.

  40. “Why give away any power to such easily malleable humans.”

    …because women are just men with tits…not…

    Say it with me, “I won’t expect women to behave like men. I won’t judge women for not behaving like men.”

    (You are correct that we generally shouldn’t give power to women.)

  41. well, from what I know, being red pill is about understanding and not about angry feelz and hating da wimminz.


  42. @Yollo

    “Red Pill is for empowering yourself.”

    Nah, Red Pill is so that you can buffer your weaknesses and blame women for your problems.

    /sarcasm off

    (I’m not saying that men haven’t been seriously hurt by women. However, if those men had been Red Pill, which is their due diligence, that would not have happened because they would have been prudent and protected themselves. Blue Pill fantasies leave men foolish and vulnerable to women. Better to blame your Blue Pill past than to blame feral women for behaving like feral women.)

  43. @Blax

    Thanks for your response. Think what you wrote didn’t respond at all about what I posted. All good, though.

    In any case, your last point that a woman’s most powerful organ, sexual or otherwise, is between her ears, is one to keep in mind for all humans.

    Much of what we’ve been discussing on this thread and others throughout the rise of red-pill awareness is controlling the “narrative.”

    In very concrete terms, the post-coitus “narrative” has become anything one wishes it to be.

    Further, world history has become anything one wishes it to be.

    Only the trained, skilled, and strong can see through all the “fuckery” (as some call it) to some understanding that approaches reality and truth.

    Many men, nearly all women, and those politically driven toward assuming governmental power, are all lacking, and should be given the minimal power possible over anyone else’s life.

    The worst, it seems to me, are those who believe to be “woke.” These individuals and groups are some of the worst, and the most dangerous.

    My unsolicited advice for every person is to live ones’s life with these things specifically in mind.

  44. Oh, Man.

    I just reflected on the last three comments by JB, AR, ASD and the the original post.

    And my experiences this past weekend.

    What Adaptation boils down to is how men face Adversity.

    It takes a lot of Mastery to deal with Adversity, but that is the lynchpin.

    How do you face adversity=What are You Going to Do About IT?

    The whole deal is here is how to respond to adversity. Or what Rollo refers to in the OP as Adaptation.

    It is a recurring theme. It happens big time in the medical field. Roll over and die or live another day with a better mindset, healthier body and going forward better mindset, which is a feed forward loop/feed-forward controller.

    In the OP:

    One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?

    This gets back to small social sets, vs. large/huge social sets. When things get huge, they get ugly. How many people are following U.S.A politics (a virtual shit-show…) vs. ignoring them? How many people control their five best guy friends, cultivate them and thrive because of them and donate great things to them? How many people organize their family members as a tribe and have a collaborative alliance to advance each one’s cause? As a tribal affair?

    I got to tell a story about my weekend. (Maybe some other time in a narrative. But maybe not. I’m getting tired of Red Pill and the manosphere.) TL;DR: It was glorious and a culmination of my reconstruction. And it had a fair bit of adversity, but no contention with my buddies and family and relationship with my wife, MRP wise. It was so cool. And beautiful. It had to do with the annual tribal guy party of deer hunters (and a decade of friendships), culled to only accept premium men, getting together with my RP tribe buddy Roused who nearly died last week from a medical condition, hanging out with my son in law who is enjoying spoils of marrying my daughter (he’s dreaming of and started to deer hunt on my glorious wildlife habit farm and enjoying the spoils of marrying her….He dreamed of developing Mastery in deer hunting all this past week. All he could think about at work was that…Lol. He can’t stop saying thank you. I told him to stop that, it’s my pleasure…)

    Also seeing how others face adversity. Adversity is always there. Speed bumps/hurdles. Those that I see doing it well make those bumps and hurdles smaller. Over and over….

    You could die tomorrow and take that legacy to your grave.

    I got to watch a handful of men face adversity this past two weeks. And it was so eye-opening. It made me think: No Big Deal in my speed bumps. Really, no big deal. I did the work and I have great resources. And they haven’t broken down much ever. I rejoice in that fact, that they rarely do.

    It’s great. To be a lover, not a weak fighter. To enjoy the spoils of having beaten whatever adversity threw your way, and you were better. For it.

    Do this: have a hobby. Face hurdles. Get over them. Move on. Repeat. Over and over…

    Do that in life, profession, inter-sexual relationships, sexual attraction, parenting, money issues, family issues.

    Get over your fucking limiting factors…

    Face adversity, adapt. It’s a great option.

    And how that relates to the current shit show in the manosphere–When you are stuck you should get inspiration from content providers/mentors/successful men. You need outside inspiration. You can’t just sit around and inspire yourself. Look to inspirational sources. It’s simple. It’s not easy. So you have to try. And try and try. Because that works for the masculine.
    It really does.

  45. @SJF

    Thank you, for sharing your life in a way to help others move forward.

    My son just finished a section on Norse mythology at school. I’ve been reading him those tales, along with Greek and Egyptian ones, for years now. So much RP in there.

    Rereading the full arc of Heracles is eye-opening to say the least. Also the teachings of Chiron, the centaur teacher of Achilles and other Greek heroes, are not wasted time when reviewed.

    Back to your post, and an addendum to the ones I’ve posted throughout this thread, I feel that it is vital to get other fellow RP men around oneself, and assiduously avoid situations which may eventually hamper your ability to do so. This may take time, yet with the target in mind it may come sooner than you think.

    And Mastery, as @SJF and @Blax keep on telling everyone here. Get good at something that will benefit your RP tribe. And reap the benefits of the tribe, just as SJFs son-in-law is.

    Again, as @SJF puts so well, if you think too big, things are well and truly out of your control. It’s crazy-making.

    Yet if you think just about yourself, you’re in trouble. I hope for all the other men struggling out there that they realize they need to get around healthy men to move forward.

  46. Adversity is personal.

    Half of men never face true adversity, but they’re happy to imagine and create their own version.

    There’s still more than one red pill.

  47. “I feel that it is vital to get other fellow RP men around oneself, and assiduously avoid situations which may eventually hamper your ability to do so.”

    It is not vital. It’s a bonus. It is helpful. I was able to do that with skill and hard work. But I’m somewhat unique. In retrospect I respected or utilized Law #10. It was and Natural and Authentic thing that I did over 35 years. It wasn’t hard for me. I look around and it is real hard for others. (To ditch or not allow energy vampires or losers to suck one’s energy, specifically.)

    It is not necessary to engage in red pill group-think in order to engage in masculine tribal virtues: Strength, courage, mastery and honor among other males. Those things stand on their own and in my experience can be had with any and all pill guys. They just have to be out for the good of the tribe. And after time the tribe will cull their own path.

    JB, I assume you read Jack Donovan’s The Way of Men. Right? Required reading for men and fathers.

    I had read it at a critical juncture when I was engaging in tribal virtuous social circle interactions and it led to more clarity on the way of men and a path to be taken. And that path only compounds virtues and charismatic male features. Success breeds success.

    Your last statement is the essence: “men need to realize and be aware that they need to get around healthy men to move forward”. Same thing our son’s and son-in laws need to realize.
    It made all the difference.

    This past weekend I interacted with 30 apex healthy men. It was awesome. I can’t recall any disagreements or men not resonating with each other. There were a couple. But I just put them out of my mind and move on. Keep moving on…

    Which reminds me of Mary Jane’s Last Dance by Tom Petty.
    (The essence of the song is: Interpret any way you want to. It could be about anything. It’s not a strict interpretation…That’s the way the song was written and expressed. It’s a metaphor for take what you want from it.)

    And Blax:

    Half of men never face true adversity, but they’re happy to imagine and create their own version.

    All men face adversities the other half don’t because of ego investments and Buffers. Adversity is out there. The other half avoids it. In doing so, they also avoid a path to competence and competence. That path being: adventure into disorder. They stand for order only. In their mind. Playing not to lose… They avoid mystery and true adventure. Which sets them on a path to stasis.

    Penetrate the world is a thing.

    Without external validation. With authenticity.

    And with outcome independence.

    Confidence only comes from reference experiences. Otherwise it is delusional. Competence only comes from the process of mastery. And that involves outside influences handled and thought of correctly. And then work. And forging on against real adversity.

    Anyone not seeing adversity is living in their own imagined bubble.

  48. Males don’t need to engage with females. So have at it MGTOW’s. You have a ticket to ride your own ride. Everyone should ride their own ride the best that they can.

    But, when the healthy masculine engages with the healthy feminine, it’s glorious. And fun.

    And I’ll bite my tongue on summoning and David Greenberg (Deida).

  49. Sjf

    What I’m getting at is that adversity can be highly subjective. The tests individual men might go through will be different.

    I have a friend I went to see a couple of months ago in Maryland. I’ve spoken of him here in the past. He was spec ops in Afghanistan. He was engaged in a firefight, and was evacuated along with wounded via helicopter, when that copter came under ground fire and he was hit 6 times, the last shot hitting him in the neck.

    He survived and came home….and got married.

    When I went to see him, he was a shell of his former self. His 6’6″ frame wasting away, aging rapidly. Almost unrecognizable. I pressed him after I got the tears out of my eyes, about what was going on, but he refused to talk about it ( the tremors make me think Parkinson’s..), But he was still going about his days as usual, running his business.

    Yes, men face varying levels of adversity, but there’s a marked difference between adversity of the mind and perception and what I call true, fucked uo, not much I can do about this adversity that there’s no solution to other than death.

    Imo, seeing actual adversity helps men put their actual lives into better perspective. What doesn’t kill me type thing, and never a ” it’s all shit ” type thing. The toughest part of life is the whole ” stopped breathing ” part.

  50. Good comment Blax.

    Yes, it’s all relative.

    But to all those guys Rollo calls AFC, Blue Pills.

    The guys you try to help, etc.

    All that adversity in my realm: The MRP realm. A lot of the adversity is self imposed. I’ve had a shit ton of adversity. I never actually let it get to me. But I’ve never been shot up in Afghanistan…

    The greatest crime is that most of their adversity really is in their head. But it’s still real.

    And there is a Bell Curve and there is a Pareto Principle.

    I see what you mean. And I’m agreeing and my statements are not in contradiction to yours.

    And everyone of us is always facing adversity.

    There is Chaos in nature. There is a fair amount of Mystery in Nature (what will happen next?…).

    Chaos is there to be tamed by humans. That’s our job to do. What we were given big brains that can process stuff, think and act upon.

    The Mystery is what makes things higher-ordered, fun, and makes life worth living if one can take up with it. It is what makes inter-sexual dynamics erotic. Which is also fun. And the role of Mystery for the masculine is to be desirous of jumping at the chance for adventure. To plunge into pussy, hobbies, mother nature, hunting, tribal associations, swapping notes online, being a dare-devil, being intellectual, a lecturer, etc.

    It’s simple. It’s not easy. And we are all a different place on the Bell Curve and the Learning Curve. And the Mastery level.

    “There is nothing more tragic than to find an individual bogged down in the length of life, devoid of breadth.”

    “Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.”

    “If you can’t fly then run, if you can’t run then walk, if you can’t walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward.”

    “We must build dikes of courage to hold back the flood of fear.”

    “Never succumb to the temptation of bitterness.”

    “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”

    “Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

    “Ten thousand fools proclaim themselves into obscurity, while one wise man forgets himself into immortality.”

    “That old law about ‘an eye for an eye’ leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing.”

    “The soft-minded man always fears change. He feels security in the status quo, and he has an almost morbid fear of the new. For him, the greatest pain is the pain of a new idea.”

    –MLK (A wise man.)

  51. @Palma

    You’re up already for morning coffee?

    Roused is fine (he could have died suddenly) and he came to our carefully curated and selected group of guys party. He’s a little worse for the wear. But will be OK.

    Carefully curated and selected group of guys. Go figure.

    “I’d say confidence comes from options..”

    Confidence is a start. And then there is competence. Competence benefits by having a good toolbox of tools. Wouldn’t you agree? You have a huge toolbox yourself…

    That toolbox is generated in Teddy Roosevelt’s metaphorical Arena throughout his life. Bit by bit, one reference experience, done well, throughout that time.

  52. I think the real issue with “man-up” that most older guys still just don’t get is that yes, you absolute can and should improve yourself (albeit, not to grab women in particular, IMO), but the dynamics have changed, largely due to tinder, bumbl, match, etc as well as society at large. As someone with an economics degree and T10 MBA, I think of the situation today as a purely typical supply demand curve in Economics 101.

    If Men are the Demand curve and attractive, reasonably sane women are the Supply curve, compared to 30, 40 years ago, the Demand curve really hasn’t changed much in that time (albeit the quality of the curve has probably shifted to the left a bit, especially in urban cores). However, the supply curve has shrunk significantly to the left, “raising the price” significantly. This means for the same amount of effort for a 25 year old in your generation, it’s vastly higher today for young men. Then you add on the real risk today of false accusations (which I have personally faced before earlier in my career) of either sexual harassment or sex regret rape cry, combined with more porn than ever before, and it’s not hard to see why many men decide it’s just not worth it.

    At 37 recently divorced after 15 years (13 in marriage) with one woman, in decent shape, extremely well traveled and continue to do so, and making top 1% income (albeit only 5′ 11), and pretty good at having an interesting conversation, I have been pleased at what is out there in the market for me (definitely easier in person than online) and currently spinning bunch of plates but even after just 3 months of that, I’m already getting bored by most of the market. Most of these women just are not very interesting or worth much of my time. I’d much rather spend the time with my male friends and my family and that’s what I’ve done most of this year including guys trips to Europe, Caribbean, Louisville bourbon trail, Savannah, Wilmington, etc just this year.

    My advice for young guys is focus on your career, continue learning about your industry through trade groups/websites/etc, focus on your guy friends, and perhaps most importantly – building a person nest egg – do the 401k till it hurts, setup a savings account, start an IRA/Roth IRA, learn about the financial markets. Financial freedom allows so many options in life. If you do all those things, stay in decent shape, and dress decently, you may not “slay” out there but you’ll still have women available to you….and never get married unless you want several kids and even then try to get an iron clad pre-nup.

  53. Ignore ( outside of discussion perhaps).

    ” Ads” don’t destroy men. ” Actions ” do.

    Stcks and stones and all that. Remember Gillette? Anybody talking about that anymore? Nope,.because it doesn’t matter over the long haul. There’s always another ” offense ” on the horizon.

  54. Magus

    Excellent comment.

    I agree with everything you said, except the false premise that you started with. Those of us past five decades do understand the dynamics and the market has changed. Markets always change. What a man does, with his own bottom up approach, in that market takes a proper mindset to deal with it. Some of us believe that mindset should be positive, and it’s not because we are old or un-seeing.

  55. Men aren’t supposed to be women, including periods or being reactive to television commercials and social media shit. The bigger issue is men becoming more like females mentally.

    Men don’t have periods of lay eggs or give birth… None of that. Looking to the herd for understanding and approval is a bad look and is better left to feminine nature.

  56. @Blaximus That ad is totally on topic which if you take a moment to stop spamming us with your teenage reminiscences you’ll note is “Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?”

    Ads like these incept ideas into young men that this idea of “equality” goes into biology.

    The suggestion that if men had periods they’d be somehow more understanding of women is as absurd a notion as “if men wore heels then…”

    The Gillette ad isn’t forgotten. it alienated their target audience so badly they replaced it with ads about male archetypes like the “hero” ad.

    Ads are designed to prompt actions: buying, selling, having “conversations”…ads like these are done by “woke” companies that forget their audiences in a bid to demonstrate some sort of higher social purpose.

  57. File under : Open Hypergamy, Sisterhood Uber Alles, women Heroes, Drumbeat, Media Propaganda, Creating a Narrative

    Adrienne Brodeur’s memoir begins with her mother, Malabar, waking the 14-year-old Adrienne in the middle of the night to tell her that she had just kissed her husband’s best friend. In the first flush of romantic excitement, Malabar takes her daughter into this confidence as if she was a peer and not a child hardly prepared to handle, let alone be party to, a parent’s infidelity.

    Poor Adrienne had enough to sort out in her own life. It was only that same day that she had experienced her first orgasm and was trying to figure out how to manage a grabby boy. Nor did Malabar think better of the dalliance and confession to her daughter. That kiss initiated a long-term affair to which Adrienne would be more than privy; she would actively assist the lovers as they carried on their deception, creating opportunities for them to get time alone, or sometimes playing a phony chaperone. She lied for them, and also carried on her conscience the full weight of the deception.

    This arrangement lasted into Adrienne’s young adulthood. It’s not until she reaches college age that a friend confronts her with a question that the reader has had in mind since the first pages: “What kind of person would do that to her daughter? And with her husband’s best friend? Jesus Christ. Your mother sounds like a piece of work.”

    ““Wild Game” will be published Tuesday following two years of hype and often breathless prepublication attention.

    The book has drawn early praise, not only from the industry press including Publisher’s Weekly and Library Journal (both gave starred reviews) but from mainstream entertainment outlets. Brodeur and “Wild Game” have been featured in recent months in People magazine, Town & Country, Bustle, Business Insider and Entertainment Weekly, which called it “the next big memoir.” Vogue ran an excerpt. It’s a Book of the Month Club pick and a fixture on autumn most-anticipated lists. (Read The Aspen Times review on page A8).

    “Wild Game” is positioned to follow the path of bestselling, acclaimed and hotly debated recent family memoirs like Tara Westover’s “Educated” and Jeannette Walls’ “The Glass Castle.”

    Brodeur, a longtime book editor who splits her time between Aspen and Cambridge, Massachusetts, never thought of it in that way in the years she was working on it.

    “The public’s first glimpse of Brodeur’s story came in a 2012 “Modern Love” column for the New York Times titled “I Am My Own In-Law,” which takes a more flippant tone than the memoir.

    An early draft of “Wild Game” drew bids from 14 publishers in September 2017 and earned Brodeur an unspecified seven-figure advance from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, capturing the attention of the publishing world.”

    Movie rights to the book sold soon after Harcourt bought the manuscript. A film adaptation is in development by “Edge of Seventeen” writer-director Kelly Fremon Craig. Brodeur has read Kelly’s screenplay, which assuaged the standard author fears about Hollywood adaptations.

    “She gets it,” Brodeur said of the filmmaker. “I’ve seen a brilliant first script. … Arguably, a lot of people will remember the movie and not the book, so it’s nice to know I’m not cringing. She knows it’s not some ‘Mommie Dearest’ thing.”

  58. Walawala
    Which ad executive in their right mind thought THIS was a good idea? <i/i>

    The “creative” who came up with it is surely a radical feminist, likely lesbian. Saying “no” to her would be thoughtcrime.

    Gillette lost money…but P&G may still not care.

  59. SJF – Yes, the market is always changing, but I don’t think you at least some on here realize how much has changed. The pace of change in most industries is significantly faster today than it has ever been by an enormous factor and the dating market is no exception. An invention in 1500 would last hundreds of years. One in 1950 would last 1 or 2 generations. Today, 3-7 years. Read Disrupt: Think the Unthinkable to Spark Transformation in Your Business by Luke Williams for more information (not related to dating but still applies)

    Yes, if a 23 year old guy gets buff as hell (2 hrs in the gym every day or at least most days), works on his gaming skills and spends a ton of timing approaching women, he can definitely get some hot ass. Or, he could invest that time in himself and go from making $25-30k a year to $250k+/year in income and a $250k-$2m net worth by the time they are 40. A 35-50 year old man with money, in good shape, well dressed and a LOT of worldly experience will clean up like crazy. It’s Rollo’s SMV graph. My advice to most young guys is focus on the career/money/friends side and dont blow it all in the gym and gaming/approaching at your age – at 40, you’ll have nothing to show for that. You will if you focus on the other things in life. My 2 cents.

  60. Blaximus
    Men aren’t supposed to be women,

    In your opinion…others disagree, and would chastise you for being insufficiently woke. Just for a start.

  61. “An invention in 1500 would last hundreds of years. One in 1950 would last 1 or 2 generations. Today, 3-7 years.”

    I don’t think that integrated circuits and telecommunications satellites are going anywhere soon. Don’t mistake product for invention.

    I also think you might be underestimating the pace of change circa 1500 with the rediscovery of the classical world, the discovery of the new world, the discovery of the universe and the invention of the limited liability company.

  62. Sentient
    Open Hypergamy, Sisterhood Uber Alles, women Heroes, Drumbeat, Media Propaganda, Creating a Narrative

    All of that “off the leash”. It’s the female “monster from the Id” turned loose just a little more. Should easily sell as well as 50 Shades and Eat, Pray, Love did.

    What’s the best musical background for that review?

  63. Sentient –
    “If your “worldly experience” is devoid of sexual relationships with a number of women, you are apt to fail.”

    If you do the things I said, you will have sexual relationships, increasing exponentially as your career/networth/confidence grows. Worst case scenario, you can just get a sugar baby or hire a hooker if it is that important to you – both massively cheaper than a wife with less stress and less risk. The emotional relationship side of what you need as a male is better served by your male friends and family. I think its important to stay in decent shape and dress well but don’t overdue the investment on these. I am a huge fan of the pareto principal in all aspects of business and your personal life. You get 80% of the return on the first 20% of your time investment in just about everything you’ll ever do.

    You are simply wrong. The pace of change is massively faster today than it ever has been in the history of human civilization in every aspect of life. The telecommunication and PC industry has been one of the fastest changers in the last 20 years as those two are increasingly blurring together.
    25 years ago, for a 20-25 year old male, the vast majority of communications with women were in person and the rest over a landline and a woman generally had access to men in her immediate sphere. 15 years ago, that was split evenly between in person, texting and calls on your cell phone and had larger access to men in the immediate sphere and people she has met along the way. 10 years ago, that communication was evenly split between in person, texting, social media and dating apps and a woman’s sphere of men to grab was increasing. Today, it’s largely texting, social media and dating apps for a 20-25 year. Yes, guys gaming in person will have better odds but they are still competing with those devices for a woman’s time and attention whereas before that wasn’t even a concern. What will it be in 5, 10 more years? No idea. Telecoms -> Landlines -> Massive cellphones -> portable cell phones -> Basic smart phone -> phones & tablets with more computing power than $10k PCs 10 years ago.

  64. Magus

    Once again, I don’t disagree with your recommendations for most young guys.

    I did what you recommend and I’m very glad I did.

    On the changing dynamic/landscape. You can keep discussing that all you want. It doesn’t change things much.

    In my profession, medical care, the landscape changed horribly from the seventies till the 2000’s. So much so that physician satisfaction with their job plummeted like a lead balloon every ten years. From like the high 80% to the low 20%’s. What is one to do about that? Whine and cry? Or find your niche where you are happy, healthy and successful. This is analogous to the intersexual dynamics reality.

    Your “gets buff as hell” and “blow it all in the gym and gaming/approaching” is a Strawman Trope.

    “focus on the career/money/friends side” There is not a reason why you can’t include understanding inter-sexual dynamics and having competent social skills and Game in a young man’s focus.

    These are not mutually exclusive or binary choices. Even if most young men can’t succeed.

    When a physician treats a sick patient, the sick patient doesn’t often get to perfect health. But that is the goal. And all should move towards that goal. With the ups and downs that accompany the journey.

    Adaptation is a mental tool to adversity. That is what humans are designed to do.

  65. ” . . . if a 23 year old guy gets buff as hell (2 hrs in the gym every day or at least most days) . . .”

    15 minutes once a week at home, with little if any additional equipment required, plus some lifestyle changes, much of which doesn’t take up any time at all. The “health and fitness” industry is pushing product. They want you to buy as much of it as possible. This is not in your interest.

  66. “I also think you might be underestimating the pace of change circa 1500 with the rediscovery of the classical world, the discovery of the new world, the discovery of the universe and the invention of the limited liability company.”

    See Nassim Taleb’s Lindy Effect in Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder

  67. kfg
    The “health and fitness” industry is pushing product.


    Gyms rent access to machines and weights. It is very profitable if no one ever uses them; zero maintenance, for a start. Renting weights vs. buying them is not a really difficult economic problem.

  68. What is one to do about that? Whine and cry? Or find your niche where you are happy, healthy and successful. This is analogous to the intersexual dynamics reality.

    This is absolutely right.

    The general situation may suck, and it does pretty much suck, but it’s relevance to any individual man is simply contextual. It provides the context in which he must plan his approach and execute his plan. It doesn’t matter that most will not be able to do this — why should that matter to you? What matters to you is that you are able to do it, and do it well and effectively, regardless of the fact that most are failing and flailing. Your goal is to be in the small number of men who find their way in this context and who succeed in getting what they want.

    That is possible regardless of the context, pace of change, difficulty, etc. All of that means it’s likely most men will fail — so? Are you “most men”? Not unless you want to be.

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