I revisited the topic of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) last Saturday on Rule Zero. I don’t like rehashing old debates I’ve learned will ultimately go nowhere. You simply wont reach most people who don’t want to be reached. Once they’ve had some experiential lessons in life, reinforced it with the tribalistic need to affirm the beliefs derived from that experience and then invest their egos in them it becomes kind of pointless. I’m not saying just give up on people, far from it, but do understand what you’re up against. This is why I say unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work, and a lot like triage. Know what’s worth expending energy for.
Most men, and nearly all women, don’t form a belief set based on multiple, independently funded, peer reviewed studies or statistical analyses. We go with experience first and then modify it from there.
I did a bit of preparation for this talk. My schedule last Saturday only permitted me an hour so I wanted to be succinct and throw out at least something new to the conversation. There’s a lot of tribalism in the Manosphere today and it’s no surprise that MGTOW as a tribe in growing – but likely not for the reasons most MGTOW would be willing to admit. MGTOW is becoming atomized and commercialized in the same manner as I predicted the Red Pill would (and has) last year.
What that means is MGTOW is rapidly becoming the same commercial vehicle for grifters that the Red Pill was just a year and a half ago. Life Coaches, Relationship Experts, Fitness Gurus, even Christian men’s ministry pastors are all looking online to find out ‘where have all the men gone?’ When men were found in the Red Pill this is where the grifters would coalesce. Thus, you had every ‘brand-of-me’ self-improvement hack calling himself “red pill”. A few of them still do. A few of them read verbatim from my book(s) and plagiarize it as their own. But more now I see these same grifters referring to themselves as MGTOW without realizing (or even caring) what it really means to men.
MGTOW is the new ‘brand’ that lifestyle ‘coaches’ are adding to their twitter profiles and YouTube channel About pages. They see the potential for growth by association. Even if they get owned in their comments and feeds, adding the tag MGTOW will draw clicks. A few of these ‘coaches’ had a familiarity with the tribe and decided to finally commit in the hopes that it would boost views, others are former ‘power-of-positivity‘ life-coaches who slide into MGTOW because the definition of what makes a man “go his own way” is so loose now that it can align with virtually anything the guy had written about before his new affiliation.
It’s a real short step from “Make yourself your Mental Point of Origin” to “Make yourself #1 in your life” and then to “Go your own way.” I’ve had at least four “dating experts” (one female) claim Mental Point of Origin was their own idea in their subscriber emails as recently as August. Grifters used the Red Pill and are now using MGTOW to legitimize their brands today. In 2015 the MRAs decided to appropriate the Red Pill as their own brand to name a feminist’s “journey of self-discovery” movie The Red Pill. This appropriation is continuing with MGTOW now.
As I said on the Red Man Group back in May, the Red Pill is going to have a real PR problem in the coming year. Everything I predicted in my State of the Manosphere address a year ago has come to pass and I predict it will only intensify in the 2020 election cycle. The Gender War needs a convenient, easy-to-hate villain to point to in order to reinforce the Future is Female narrative.
Very soon MGTOW will have the same PR problem. And once the next Eliot Rodger or Alex Minasian incident occurs you’ll see these grifters scatter from MGTOW like roaches when the lights come on. When there are dead women on the sidewalk somewhere, and the MSM is using terms like ‘MGTOW’, ‘Incel’ and ‘radicalization’ that is when all the ‘tribes’ of the Manosphere will throw each other under the bus. That’s when you’ll know who was ‘playing MGTOW’ for likes.
One thing this re-debate of MGTOW has made me reconsider is whether men are adapting to the new realities of the sexual marketplace or just looking to make their necessities a virtue. At its simplest MGTOW is men refusing to make women the measure of their lives, and then molding their lives to their own plan. This pairs nicely with virtually every pet ideology and ‘positivity’ grift in the ‘sphere today. Even Tradcons will agree with MGTOW if it means “Be the best man you can be“. It agrees with Mental Point of Origin. It agrees with Roissy – “You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.” It agrees with “Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.“
If that was all there was to MGTOW it would simply be Red Pill. What “MGTOW” life-coach grifters don’t realize is that MGOTW is a derivative of the Red Pill. I’ve always argued that once a guy becomes Red Pill aware he cannot help but live in some different fashion. Even the guys who go into complete denial can’t unsee the truths of intersexual dynamics. It’s what you actually do with that new awareness that sets apart Red Pill praxeology from MGTOW in practice. There’s more to MGTOW than just refusing to make women the measure of a man’s life – it’s also deciding what actually is deference to women. And that’s where it becomes highly subjective.
In my last post I outlined how women were upset there weren’t enough ‘eligible‘ men to marry in the current (westernized) sexual marketplace (SMP) today. Of course the two most common responses were either:
- Women are the victims of the SMP they created. Women’s solipsistic, socially enabled entitlements to an ‘economically attractive’ man (a man who exceeds her own productivity by 58%) only proves the point that women’s social media bloated egos have made them unrealistic tyrants. Now their beliefs and actions have come home to roost.
- This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.
One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?
For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. The Gender War of today exists because of a systematic segregation between men and women (don’t @me with the cultural marxism/’evil juice’ shit for the moment). Honestly, I’m sick of reading about how negative it is to merely point out the realities of this ‘gender cold war’ by Success Porn grifters, but is not MGTOW an adaptation to this segregation? Is not MGTOW an exacerbation of this segregation. When I read mantras like ‘Dogs, Dudes and Dolls’ it sounds an awful lot like ‘Cats, Girlfriends and Vibrators’.
Is MGTOW an adaptation to the conditions in a sexual marketplace that was (and still is) contrived by feminism/gynocentrism?
The following quote is from a long time commenter and friend Deti. This was from a larger discussion that began here if you want to get some context. Sorry guys, I just don’t have the space to repost the whole thread, but I don’t want this to get lost. Hopefully, it will inspire further discussion in this post’s comments:
I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.
About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Women responded to and lived within that milieu in a number of ways.
Using soft power, manipulation, deceit, subterfuge, behind the scenes machinations. Most women were more or less OK with marrying an OK guy, having OK sex, and living an OK life.
Of course, sometimes women cheated on the downlow. Sometimes women cuckolded husbands. I mean real actual traditional definition of cuckolding, which is a married woman getting pregnant by an Alpha and passing the child(ren) off as the Beta Husband’s. There’s no way to know how often that happened, but it wasn’t really rare – Maybe anywhere from 5 to 20% of children then weren’t fathered by their bio-moms’ husbands. In rare cases, not marrying and becoming spinsters, living as bohemians or as “favorite cousins” or “favorite aunts” with male relatives, working as teachers or seamstresses or some other job, and being live in nanny/maid. In rare cases, divorcing and living off family money or a husband’s alimony money. Living as widows and not remarrying.
The point is that women learned how to adapt. There are a lot of reasons for that, but they did adapt.
The main responses men have used today to adapt to changing circumstances have been:
- Game/PUA/Seduction – Use the changes to men’s advantage and go for easy sex and the bachelor lifestyle.
- MRA – Fighting the changes to advocate for either equalizing the laws or rolling them back to a return to Marriage 1.0 and pre-sexual revolution status.
- MGTOW – Check out of the new system, refuse to support or participate in it, and eschew relationships with women to varying degrees.
About, oh, 20 years in, I think we can safely say that option 2) is dead in the water and has been for some time. About the only real reforms here are that divorce and family laws are slowly, very, very slowly, moving toward 50/50 residential custody and away from alimony (except in the case of longer term marriages with breadwinner spouse/dependent nonemployed wife). Unless you have been married more than 20 years and support a housewife, you probably will not be paying alimony except for temporarily. Thats about the entire sum and substance of how “equal” it’s going to get between men and women.
That leaves 1) Game; and (3) MGTOW.
It’s hard to tell what will come out of this. I think we can say:
• Marriage 1.0 is dead and we are never going back to it for at least 2 more generations. If you think you’re going to have a “traditional marriage” where you don’t have to do much to maintain it or you can let up on your attractiveness levels, think again. Because that is not going to happen. If you’re going to marry a woman, you need to improve your attractiveness, marry a woman who is not financially dependent on you, and cultivate your own life separate and apart from her. You need a contingency plan in the event the marriage goes south. And with all that, you need to consider whether you want to risk bringing kids into the mix. You absolutely need a prenuptial agreement, even if it gets judicially torn up or modified later.
The bottom line is, people are still marrying, it’s just that it’s all being pushed out later and later, and people are staying single longer and spending less time married. Many women are meeting the men they eventually marry in their early to mid 20s, and then marrying in their late 20s and early 30s. That’s a paradigm that’s increasing in frequency; this idea of long term dating and engagements lasting 2 to 5 years while both the man and woman establish their careers.
If you want long term relationships you should consider marriage alternatives like living together, or being exclusive while living apart. You absolutely must avoid at all costs these polyamory/polygyny situations, and open marriages. You absolutely must avoid women who want to continue AF’ing it even after they marry. That must be an absolute no go, not an option, ever.
• Men have to improve and increase their sexual attractiveness to create, maintain, and sustain relationships with women. You can’t let up here. That’s IF you want relationships with women.
• More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.
For most men, avoiding women entirely, except for paying hookers, is a no go. The thirst is that strong. The male sex drive is that potent. Most men want to have some contact with women, even if it’s just random hookups now and again. And the only way to do that is to make yourself as sexually attractive as possible. That just is so. Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women. So if you want sex partners, you have to make yourself sexually attractive. And you have to know male and female sexual nature, so that you know what you’re getting into, you know what you’re seeing, you know what women are doing, and you know what women really mean when they talk.
For men, improving one’s own attractiveness increases one’s power in the market. It increases his ability to control some of the selection process. It gives him an abundance mentality. It gives him the power to walk away from situations that disadvantage him. It gives him the ability to tell women “no” and to reject women who cannot or will not give him what he wants and needs.
On the other hand, going your own way can also increase your power in the market. It maximizes your control over your own life. It sharply reduces your responsibilities to others, and increases your opportunities. It frees up your resources to expend the way you want. Sharp reductions in responsibility means a sharp reduction in the needed resources for day to day living, meaning you can work less and increase your leisure time.
I think that more and more men will go pure MGTOW, which is essentially “make the best of a tough situation, be single, and don’t have a family. At least that’s better than getting divorce raped and it’s less work than going to the gym, getting in shape, and eating clean. This way I can eat what I want and work 30 hours a week, and live by myself in my apartment”. It’s kind of similar to women 100 years ago, where the path of least resistance was for Bertha BigGirl, Martha Dumptruck, and Plain Jane to “find a decent, OK man to support me, and probably have at least 3 of his kids. At least it’s better than living with Mom until she dies, and then having to live with my brother and his wife, and taking care of their kids.” And similar to the spinster, the MGTOW will be low status, or at least perceived as low status. But for the spinster and the MGTOW, their lifestyles will be at least better than whatever else they could have gotten.
Guys, Nova is absolutely correct in that men by and large are not adapting.
I think that what’s going on is that many men are saying “want to stay the same, don’t want to do a lot of work, but I still want women to be attracted to me and to be able to date a lot and eventually get married and have a family like (a) mom and dad had when I was growing up; or (b) like I didn’t get to have growing up.” Well, you can’t have that, at least not without working for it. If you want something you’re going to have to work for it. If you want women and sex, you’re going to have to make yourself attractive to women. And the way you’re going to do that, the only way to do that, is to stand out. And the way you stand out is by improving every area of your life – your job, your body, your finances, your lifestyle, your hobbies, your social acumen, and everything else that involves you going through your life.
The funny thing is that when a man stops caring so much about it, forgets about women, and sets about improving his life, he starts attracting women.
That’s the current state of things, I think.
I don’t disagree that we’re presently at a turning point in intersexual relations. After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable. Now that we’re 50 odd years past that point we’re figuring out how reproduction, love, marriage, and something as simple as boy-meets-girl is going to look for future generations. The internet and a social media acculturation on a global scale has seen to it that it will likely never look like it did under the old social contract. There’s a theory that post-agrarian societies experienced a similar shift in intersexual dynamics in our ancestral past. Socially enforced monogamy was the obvious intersexual shift.
Right now we’re seeing a similar shift in intersexual relations. Is it simply better for men and women to live segregated lives? I don’t believe so, but it seems like a larger cultural narrative believes it’s time for both men and women to go their own ways. Until one side concedes, fuck any notion of evolved complementarity is the narrative I guess.
I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting. They always have. It’s that the adaptation is counter to what we might hope is the natural order between men and women.
I submit the idea that: Men have adapted, and are on a course of further adaptation. MRA, PUA, and MGTOW are not actually the adaptations per se, but movements created as a result of the adaptation. In other words, these 3 movements are just a handful of the many manifestations of the male adaptation. The real adaptation, and the best hope for men to preserve themselves, is a shift in how men perceive both women and major societal institutions. The key driver here, is men becoming increasingly likely to question the motivations of both women and societal institutions, with the… Read more »
Really great stuff Deti.
There’s a certain amount of self psychology or stoicism or something that a man has to go through in order to become his own mental point of origin. Part of it is acceptance of the reality of your own situation.
It would be interesting to see where this is all going. As if to read about it in a history book….Feminism and the rise and fall of humanity (1850 – 2100).
“This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working” Working? MGTOW is its own end. It is not a movement. It will not convince women of anything.
@redlight: exactly. Not grand, well defined and monolithic movements, but minor changes in how men conduct themselves. Each little change is a conscious decision, and each change adds to the total shift. All these choices find their root in continually shifting perception. Every expensive dinner aborted in lieu of a cheap coffee or bar date has its roots in a man understanding womens’ motivation differently. The more men mentally redefine women as self-interested actors, the less likely they are to treat them in ways that only benefit the women. The more men view societal institutions as cynical manipulations of their… Read more »
@Incubus_Rising Rollo isn’t trying to segregate and distill only one approved way to be a male. He’s attempting, and I believe he’s been succeeding, to take all knowledge of inter/intrasexual dynamics and unite it through the process of Integration. Therefore, when he “talks shit” about another person, it’s generally pointing out the flaws in their approach that, when followed; lead one’s understanding away from the integrated approach. They can discuss the integrated approach. But more than likely, the challenger will have his ego bruised. Why? Because the challenger can make the error of reserving the right to patent his own… Read more »
Rollo: I disagree that my comment started the discussion on which you based your post. Novaseeker’s superb comment here https://therationalmale.com/2019/09/19/unmarriageable/#comment-281659 started this discussion. That was followed up with Morpheus’ comment here https://therationalmale.com/2019/09/19/unmarriageable/#comment-281666 it started with a discussion of whether men were marriageable; and whether women were justified in complaining that “there are no men worth marrying”. And that’s because most men aren’t worth marrying. Most men aren’t ready for marriage, aren’t marriageable, don’t have what it takes to be married, and don’t have anything most women want. For the purposes of this discussion, it does not matter that most women… Read more »
“Just as I accepted it when I did all I could do to go to The Big City” the big city is a toilet…. but, did you REALLY do ALL you could? “and a sweet job deal did not come my way.” sweet deals generally don’t just appear. did you try gaming the ugly daughter of a top firm’s founding partner in order to make contacts? i know that kind of info wasn’t around back then, but you know what i mean “I kept trying and reaching diminishing returns. It didn’t work out the way I wanted it to. I… Read more »
FLeezer My job search story was to illustrate a point. I could not get a coastal BigLaw job. I was also operating within practical constraints like time, space, and the need to get out of school and start earning money, supporting myself, and living the life I had worked so hard for. I needed a plan to do that. Plan A didn’t work out. I had to change the plan, so I did. To analogize: I can’t attract a woman I’m sufficiently attracted to, despite my maxing out my improvement. OK. Plan A was to get a long term relationship… Read more »
This was also my problem with women. I had a problem. I was in Plan A: A marriage to a woman where I’m not getting the sex or respect I want. This is a problem. It’s a problem for me. Something’s not working right. This isn’t working for me. Plan A has turned out to be a problem. I need a solution. Where am I going to find a solution? I have spent years bitching and complaining about this problem, and that hasn’t solved it. I’ve asked other people, they havent’ solved it. I asked my wife, she didn’t solve… Read more »
@Yollo: “P.S. How many cows have you farmed?” I do not spend my life squatting day and night in the comments section, hence I do not understand the euphemisms used here. “He’s attempting, and I believe he’s been succeeding, to take all knowledge of inter/intrasexual dynamics and unite it through the process of Integration.” I disagree. His past actions of going along with spergs and engaging in deliberate smear campaigns against RSD, Roosh, Incels, MGTOWs and MRAs using RMG as a platform, show otherwise. And now he finds himself as a target of a vicious smear campaign. I am not… Read more »
No prescriptions means that you have to figure out for yourself how to apply the information in your own life.
It doesn’t mean we stop calling out bullshit.
“It doesn’t mean we stop calling out bullshit.”
Calling an entire group of people as “doll fuckers” is how you confront bullshit?
Nice, keep going.
Safe spaces. It’s a decidedly feminine thought process that says no one can be corrected , as any old thing is just as good as any other thing. The gynocracy has been doing heavy squats evidently. I’m more partial to the thoughts laid down by deti and nova. I’m still trying to get my head around brother Morpheus. The reaction has been I interesting and informative, and I spend time here to learn. As one of the dick.swinging boomer fucks,😂 I think men passing on what they have learned is valuable and not particularly prescriptive. Woman cannot instruct men about… Read more »
” doll fuckers ” is hilarious.
Last year we had a big discussion about sex dolls and virtual sex. None of that is an answer to anything seriously.
Some of us are adapting. But this has always been the way as most men are sheep and pussies. They’d rather whine and complain. Perhaps it’s that same adaptability and a powerful orientation towards life that chicks find attractive which makes top 20% men high value? Gosh, who knows? Here’s a POV the lot of you here could benefit from. What’s it like for the women? I wonder how men would feel if they bore the physical burden and risks of reproduction? I wonder how men would feel if they’d been living in a matriarchy, and finally found a way… Read more »
The more I read about MGTOW the more I see it as a total cop out—giving some fancy name to basically giving up.
IF you want to live in monk mode join a monastic order and devote yourself to that cause. But suggesting that as a MAN you want to give up women the way one gives up smoking or bacon or sugary drinks isn’t a deliberate lifestyle choice, it’s simply admitting you’ve run out of real options, lack game and don’t want to play anymore.
Women seem to have a fundamentally transactional view of sex, judging by how readily they will throw the term “used for sex” around. That expression implies they weren’t reimbursed enough for providing sex. Yet even if a woman has a desire sex with an Alpha and he ghosts her, she will be complaining about how he “used her for sex”. This implies that whenever a woman has sex with a man, in the back of her mind is “what am I getting for this?”
It’s not complicated and in most cases women aren’t looking for material. Many look for emotional and intimate contact/connection, and when they have sex and the expected connection doesn’t materialize, some feels used.
I don’t think many men get the idea of ” used ” the way women mean it. More communication difficulty.
Not every girl having sex is looking for a transaction in the way you’re stating. But quite a few are smart enough to turn the tables and make unsatisfactory sex into transactional sex.
High value not Mgtow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JHLijp–dU Supporting yourself and your mission and being MPO along the way. Every day and moment new choices and composure
Reading that comment was incredibly entertaining. You started off with “all the mgtows are pussy sheeps, and I am the red pill!!!” and somehow ended up white knighting for some random chick that was too retarded to take precautions for like 4 paragraphs.
Very impressive transition
I think Ollie’s comment about we are seeing the transitive effects of men adapting through different movements. I don’t think we are seeing the result. It’s more like different groups of men are A/B testing the best way forward with women and relationships. On the relationship front, marriage is going to be dead in the next generation or 2 if something doesn’t change. On the sex side, Rollo is also probably right that we’re going to move into the sugar baby age, if nothing changes in the next generation or 2. Neither of these outcomes are going to be healthy… Read more »
male action over reaction
The cringe is strong in Scribblerg’s post: “I also have real empathy for their lot in life. My old HB9 got pregnant by a married guy and has a newborn now, alone. Fyi, he did it against her will in the sense that she didn’t give him permission to cum inside of her. Good news is he’s a wealthy NYC lawyer so he’s on the hook for 10k a month for the next 18 years as he’s required to provide for his bastard son in the lifestyle his other children live.” Woman has unprotected sex with a man during her… Read more »
One thing I forgot to mention. Woman has unprotected sex during her ovulation period WITH MAN SHE KNOWS IS VERY WEALTHY and gets pregnant “against her will”.
Well, isn’t that special.
I’m still trying to get my head around brother Morpheus. Blax, I haven ‘t forgotten your other posts and question…I will get to all of it…in the meantime ask whatever you want of me and I’ll give you a candid answer, I’m about being real on these boards, not a posturing blowhard (not directed at you but some fit the bill). In the meantime, speaking of this subject and “self-improvement” it is time to go kill my chest workout, but I will get to the comments directed at me. Culum, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY AND TIME! I’ve got a… Read more »
“6’3″, My Degree, fitness and exercise enthusiast, non smoker social drinker, playful, open minded, inquisitive, adventurous but also enjoy quiet night at home watching TV or movies. Favorite music is EDM” Morpheus, I wish you all the best, but your profile is boring and reads like a job application for boyfriend. You are trying to reason the women into wanting to have sex with you instead of engaging her imagination and her emotions. Even if you are visually attractive, this profile will work against you. Remember that “women porn” is romance novels, not pictures of naked dudes. I will not… Read more »
It’s been a few years, so I don’t remember it in detail, but it was something VERY corny like “don’t swipe right unless you are a simmering volcano, waiting to erupt behind a facade of propriety, for when we are alone I WILL stripe that facade and make you explode with pleasure and anticipation”.
@deti tl;dr men need to eliminate debilitating mental programs running in their subconscious and grow balls before their choices will benefit them I think that you left out a couple of things from your list of men’s problems that are even more important than any of the other things you list. First, many men are living under several debilitating mental programs inserted by the FI. These are programs which pedestalize women and assert that “eggs are expensive and sperm is cheap” and “women get to choose”. From what I have seen, when women are around hot guys, their libidos spike.… Read more »
Or they c) do ‘the work’ which is more satisfying in terms of how they spend their time (job, professional development, fitness endeavours, reading, family, cooking healthy for themselves, getting appropriate sleep) versus losing that time to dating/seeking women of equal standing.
I.e. there is more reward to focusing on non-game endeavours
@Incubus_Rising Roosh doesn’t need help smearing himself, man. He went on Dr. Oz and froze when that black whale in Lane Bryant couture went off on him. There’s knowing how to get P in V and then there’s a rough estimate of the character of a man in a given context. From the look of it, it’s as Rollo said. Roosh wanted to find a way to just live off of the shit he’s been doing on into old age. And he didn’t need anyone’s permission to try his hand at that. Nobody is above consequences. Not even unintended ones.… Read more »
Please, please remove the bathroom selfie. It’s so cringeworthy and is like one picture neon sign flashing “stay away” (and not in a good way).
By all means show off being in shape, it’s a great asset but have some kind of natural looking shirtless picture on the beach or working on a construction site or on a boat or whatever, not the bathroom selfie..
“After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable.” The seeds of this upheaval were sown long before the advent of the female monopoly on birth control, sadly. The roots run deep. “Bond came to the conclusion that Tilly Masterton was one of those girls whose hormones had got mixed up. He knew the type well and thought they and their male counterparts were a direct consequence of giving votes to women and ‘sex equality’. As a result of fifty years… Read more »
😂 I’m not that much of a selfie dude, but Palma looks good. Look around at the average 50+ year old man.
Maybe you’re right about the beach shot thing, but bathroom selfies seem to be standard operating procedure.😁
I’m purely speculating here, but it a guy is older and not out of shape, wouldn’t it be prudent to display that he’s not ” what you think of ” to the visually driven market?
Yup. Hindsight is 20/20.
” . . . bathroom selfies seem to be standard operating procedure.” Apply standard procedures, get standard results. To repeat one of my “bumper stickers”: Men can best assess the looks of a woman while she is sleeping Women can best assess the looks of a man while he is chopping wood. Women exist, men do. Women can sit there and look pretty, but it’s part of the Burden of Performance that what a man is doing is part of how he looks. Men’s profile pics should be action shots. In the ring. Hauling up the mainsail. Maybe even actually… Read more »
To be clear, I’m not against the “showing your body off” pictures at all. Women say they hate abs pictures, but they work online – guys showing abs get more messages and more responses.
I’m all for Palma showing off his physique – the effect is even more enhanced at his age for obvious reasons.
I’m just against him doing the “bathroom selfie” – it’s horrific. It just screams “average unimaginative try hard loser”.
Same body shown off in a more casual setting – beach, boat, whatever – is a great idea.
Okay, I get it. I don’t have social media on purpose, but my kids, goddaughters and their friends post me up on IG often and I.see some of the commentary sometimes. Most of the pics are me in a selfie or a candid shot ( grilling, dancing, etc ). Lol, I.was.just speculating on what I would include on a profile if I created one, and I’d most likely include a bathroom selfie because the lighting in the bathroom looks pretty good ( many women take selfies in the bathroom at my home…😂). People/women have preconceived notions when they hear –… Read more »
I see men and women hanging out as friends more than ever. I would hardly call that segregation.
“Lol, I.was.just speculating on what I would include on a profile if I created one, and I’d most likely include a bathroom selfie because the lighting in the bathroom looks pretty good”
And here we see why it’s wise to only listen/take the advice of someone with experience Vs someone without.
Still love you blax <3
I see men and women hanging out as girlfriends more than ever.
There, fixed it for ya
Rollo posts about a paradigm shift going on in the sphere. And it’s degenerating into a discussion about whether bathroom selfies for guys are a bad idea.
Palma looks damn good, and Im sure with a body like that gets his dick wet on the regular. No woman gives a good Goddamn where that pic was taken, so long as she can see the goods beforehand, and get to sample the goods in person. Who the fuck cares that it was in a bathroom? The women who fuck him sure won’t give a shit.
” There are some commenters where I get the image in my mind of all these really attractive women EVERYWHERE and I really think to myself where are all these guys seeing these attractive women.”
Well all around almost any Power Five uni and surrounding area coffe places, smoothy places, yoga etc…. Upscale/cool/in parts of LA, NYC, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Boston, South Fla… even DC. Most resorts, yacht basins… “”scenes”, Hip cool new restaurants and lounges. Upscale hotels. Rooftops… Places that will limit bottom feeders…
It’s the same old same old really. Guys trying to solve cat problems using dog logic. It just wont work.
Morpheus – at 6’3″ and ripped you should have zero trouble doing approaches in real life. Unless you have problems with your game. focus on that. It will translate online as well. But you should just forget online.
“Who the fuck cares that it was in a bathroom? The women who fuck him sure won’t give a shit.”
She won’t fuck him if she doesn’t swipe right on his profile (a lot of times if the girl doesn’t like your main profile pic (currently a bathroom selfie) she won’t bother to look through your other pics. Instant swipe left) in the first place (https://www.playingfire.com/tinder-profile-picture-guide-and-tips/).
Culum’s advice for palma to substitute the bathroom selfie for something more swipeable (doing something cool, while incidentally showing off your body) is good advice.
Rollo posts about a paradigm shift going on in the sphere. And it’s degenerating into a discussion about whether bathroom selfies for guys are a bad idea.
interesting isn’t it?…lol
i’m guessing, but you think that is bad?…
and no, i’m not really setting you up…lol… i’m just wanting to illustrate a point…
so, if you would be so kind as to answer that^^^…
Here is something I see regularly… Girls like this with guys like this [just a random pic]
Now if you want to run into MOAR girls like this… Hit up her Insta and see where she goes…
Then start going to places like that…
The photo is fine. Too much overthinking, methinks.
-just my .01
“The photo is fine. Too much overthinking, methinks.
-just my .01”
and this is why we don’t listen to women 🙂
J…did you ask a woman to pick out your gravatar image?
@Sentient Here is something I see regularly… Girls like this with guys like this [just a random pic] https://www.instagram.com/p/B1ppXBFAiE4/ Now if you want to run into MOAR girls like this… Hit up her Insta and see where she goes… https://www.instagram.com/jessalynxx/ Then start going to places like that… +1… IRL is the BEST!!!… (and ya, that was a pun aimed you, bro…lol) and all you men who are going to step up, just remember… that sh*t^^^ is ALL ‘curated’… so that she LOOKS like she is that ‘awesome’ all the time…lol BUT… that’s NOT true at ALL… that^^^ represents the PEAK… Read more »
I’m going to move any specific responses on online dating apps over to Field Reports after this.
Ranger, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated, I laughed at the “job application” but you are right, and that is kind of the conclusion i was coming to earlier when I mentioned it being to “Factual”…I had figured I’d leave the “Cocky Funny” stuff for the messaging but looks like it is also key to the profile
https://heartiste.net/men-not-at-work-4/ So many conservative social commentators, like Ross Douthat, fail to account for feedback loops in the sexual market, and how that trickles up and affects the economic market. They have a blind spot about women, preferring to lay blame for all society’s woeful indicators at the feet of men, so that they may continue polishing the pedestal of their faire maidens. But men react to opposite sex cues just as much as women do. Think of men as having two engines of motivation, one internal, one external. The internal engine is self-starting and self-perpetuating, and it evolved to confer… Read more »
Men are adapting, much to the distress and repressed amazement of females and pundits of assorted “genders” who expected us to continue following the behaviors approved of in the 1950s.
” . . . feedback loops . . .”
. . . inside of feedback loops, inside of . . .
Hey Morpheus and all Re: online dating. It’s been good to me. If this was around back in the day it’s possible I would not have a son. Son is 9. so far I have not been financially crushed (but certainly compromised) so I’m able to pay for a few drinks without feeling tight. . I’m white, 5’9”, 170lbs have kept my university soccer and wrestling physique throughout my life (from coaching and participating in both even now) I’m 46. Was briefly an English teacher. Now a high-end fitness/health coach, a personal trainer who takes on tougher cases (mostly neuro-issues).… Read more »
“looking like a beast, ”
I think Morpheus solved the problem with that pick in FR section.
He just looks like a large bulky guy. That look does not translate online. The camera adds weight as it is, and being pale washes the rest away. The pics girls like are lean first and foremost. definition.
57 YO Lyon, not chopping wood.
But get off that online thing already!
those two were both from cold approach & FNL by the way
There it is…
” . . . not chopping wood.”
But caught in motion. It’s an action shot.
So we’re undecided about the “bathroom” shot then..
But what about the other two??
They don’t work for me. The women are fine and I always enjoy your material here, but I’m just not attracted to you in that way…
I think kfg is right about the action shots. Ready made for you as a Hen Cruise sailing Captain. Get somebody else to take the photo. Am I the only one that thinks selfies send the wrong message?
Palma in an action shot:
“‘having drinks at a cool place’ is a peak experience for her…lol” lol… if a female tried to take pictures when i was doing normal shit like drinking liquids, enjoying nature, sitting down somewhere in some city, being in a park somewhere… she should delete all pics and just put one post up: “i live a life where i do things in places, but none of them are worth photographing” “entertainment partnerships @ facebook ” is that her job lol who did she blow to get that interview lol last thing that comes to mind with that page is “entertaining”… Read more »
This sort of insta is what you need now
@Lost Patrol I think kfg is right about the action shots. Ready made for you as a Hen Cruise sailing Captain. Get somebody else to take the photo. +1… Am I the only one that thinks selfies send the wrong message? i think you are right… it sort of smacks of try-hard… like nobody else (ie other girls) cares enough to be interested… but there is a slight difference between when a girl takes the shot and when the man does… look at the two photos of the dude @Palmasailor put up…lol… one has both hands in sight, with girl… Read more »
“I had figured I’d leave the “Cocky Funny” stuff for the messaging but looks like it is also key to the profile”
Just saw this…
“If that is not enough of a red pill moment”
“red pill” is making it out of the manosphere
The members of the Red Man Group is in it to make money from men and they are no better than pimping preachers / pastors but men are so thick and gullible that they can’t see the forest for the trees.
For anyone who has had opportunities to overhear women talking about their husbands when they think no male is around ( EG. working in a hair salon) , it becomes very clear it’s nearly always transactional after the honeymoon hormones wear off. Men become docile plow horses and lose their edge after marriage, sometimes egged on by their wives as “I love the Dad Bod” so they can let themselves go as well. The only men women truly want are the ones that refuse to succumb to the pail of oats in the stable. As far as MGTOW’s go, they… Read more »
As a MGTOW I would say that at least, for me, it’s largely about society and it’s laws, especially the enforcement of those laws to the detriment of men that makes MGTOW the clear choice. It’s the understanding and acceptance that “option 2” (MRA) is, and always was, dead. It was never a viable choice because society can’t afford and doesn’t have the stomach to acknowledge or listen to men’s problems, let alone spend money on addressing them. Since MGTOW men often are not incels and often do not have problems dating women (many are divorcees who’ve been royally burned… Read more »
@ Rollo Great quote from heartiste. The OMGs here are overly obsessed with the whole alpha concept. This is why they like to shit on MGTOW types. But alphas are only a very tiny subset of men. They are not superior to non alphas. Rollo even has an essay or two that says something along those lines. I think it is non alpha males that drive collective shifts on the male side of the SMP. They are far more numerous than alpha males, and also have a much greater incentive to act collectively. You could even say they have no… Read more »
Wow… so much hate for the beta here. Sure its that beta fault who was fed for 25 years fantasy romantic porn of being a decent man, helping and being nice. Now some here wonder why it is so hard for many of them to just “change.” Now you are slapping them with trans porn in the face telling them this is how it is done in real life. The red pill is hard to take, but once you get it you have to unlearn all the other bullshit they fed you all those years. Meanwhile the whole media and… Read more »
I honestly don’t get the ” scared of harm ” argument wrt interactions with women.
Question for every single dude that is ” concerned ” about what a women could do ( some have said they will DESTROY you and your life ), are you concerned or afraid about most of your life, or is it strictly women?
Some of that stuff is still easy to find. It would be good for frustrated men to go read it. Hit this site and scroll down: Bonecrkr, Pook, Zenpriest, and others.
LOL @ retarded babydaddy Scribblerg. You and Spergatron should form the Old Man Baby Minder group.
If only YaReally were around to advice babydaddy Scribs!
“I honestly don’t get the ” scared of harm ” argument wrt interactions with women.”
I find that hard to believe.
For clarity then, no one is scared of a woman. They are scared of the state.
As they very well should be.
I see men and women hanging out as friends more than ever. I would hardly call that segregation.
“Friends” = beta orbiter circling a girl hoping for a whiff…acting like another girl…while she treats him as her gay friend.
Great for her when she needs the couch moved. Sucks for him, because he’s her palace eunuch. Yeah, it’s a kind of segregation.
Aeon I don’t believe men should live in fear of anything other than death, state included. Wait until they start putting bullets in you. But what I’m reading over and over is fear of women, that they are going to destroy you using the state/other men. A lot of it is exaggeration and hyperbole, rooted in good old fashioned fear. I’m a divorce man. Nobody should point to me to use me as an excuse – ” see!!! Blaximus got divorced!!!! “. I understand that I’m hanging out in the sphere, so I’m going to have a steady diet of… Read more »
Bwahahahahha. I got 9 thumbs down! I’m a white knight too!. Giggling. Just cuz I try to be supportive to a single mom who I encouraged not to have an abortion. FYI, we don’t t hang out much. I mostly talk to her on the phone to put a smile on her face and provide some solid masculine energy and guidance for her during an incredibly tough time in her life. Even worse? I empathize with women and their lot in the sexual marketplace. That this would trigger some of you proves my point and you can’t even see it.… Read more »
“I don’t believe men should live in fear of anything other than death, state included.” I understand the sentiment, but there’s no room for it in this specific circumstance, in my opinion. “But what I’m reading over and over is fear of women, that they are going to destroy you using the state/other men. A lot of it is exaggeration and hyperbole, rooted in good old fashioned fear.” It really isn’t. This is an option quite readily available to them. They can exercise it at any time, for any reason, and expect full support from the general public and the… Read more »
“I empathize with women and their lot in the sexual marketplace.”
Did you not just humble brag about your new 19 or 20 year old piece? You, a man of over 50 years?
Helping young women step up onto the cock carousel is very compassionate of you, I have to agree
Aeon Okay, we agree to disagree. 300+million people in the U.S. Alone. If you pointed to 150 million ” stories ” I would totally agree. But chew on this perspective. The state/government has been corrupt before you or I were born. People are adept at ignoring the fuckery, until they think it might affect them or their way of life. The trick is to understand this, not ever fear this ( because they are counting on using your fear to control you, or make you voluntarily control yourself ) and figure out how to get what you want despite perceived… Read more »
“The OMGs here are overly obsessed with the whole alpha concept the concept of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, self actualization, and self differentiation, while having sex with their wives 3x a week because they are attractive, and raising their children to be self actualized, great people. This is why they like to shit on MGTOW types.” Thanks for the comments Deti, Novaseeker and Morpheus. I’m indifferent to guys that are lazy, whine, or claim things are hopeless. It’s untrue that some of us have no idea how hard things are out there. It’s untrue that things are exponentially harder now.… Read more »
Opinions please. Is this article about Hypergamy good advice? https://hackspirit.com/female-hypergamy-what-it-is-and-7-ways-to-use-it-to-your-advantage/
Blaximus doesn’t get the idea that there are men afraid of women. C’mon, seriously? You’ve never seen a man who is totally in a woman’s frame? Who lets her treat him like one of the children? I’ve seen it more than once. Dalrock has an essay on one version of this. The zombie cart-pushers of Costco… https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2019/09/24/doing-as-they-were-taught/ Maybe they are afraid of the state, but more likely they are afraid of wifely disapproval., because they were raised in a femcentric culture, by women (40% frivorce rate, remember?), brainwashed in school by women teachers (“here’s your sit-still pill!), etc. Men are… Read more »
Blaximus But what I’m reading over and over is fear of women, that they are going to destroy you using the state/other men. A lot of it is exaggeration and hyperbole, rooted in good old fashioned fear. Fear, ignorance, and being trapped in a femme=centric frame of reference. IMO. Fear – you got it. Ignorance – can’t really read a woman, still got Mommy living in the back of his head because Frame of reference – still trapped in the “must please women!” blue pill state. Churchgoing men especially can get stuck in this, because so many churches are feminized.… Read more »
“The only men women truly want are the ones that refuse to succumb ”
Just put a period there and follow that advice.
“Is this article about Hypergamy good advice?”
Sure. Why not?
Why do you have to ask?
A tip of the hat to Deti and Novaseeker .
Regarding mgtow , men have the right to live life how they see fit. That doesn’t mean any way is wrong or right in the eyes of the person living it. It’s when you start explaining that the reasoning may start to faulter and collapse .
@Ronin “That said, very few over 40 are worth the bother ( I’m 64)” What? Because you’re 64, you think that you should pursue women who are 40+? Feel the hand of the FI on your shoulder? ” I’d sooner play pool, ride my bike and hit the gym with like minded minded guys than waste time looking for unicorns in the herds of Bovineity and the Porcine.” Yeah, you’re right, you’re no Petruchio. It’s beyond your capability to be able to train girls effortlessly. And I have no issue with your hobbies. Unicorns don’t occur naturally–they are created. Kate… Read more »
“I honestly don’t get the ” scared of harm ” argument wrt interactions with women.
Wellll…they are the castrati.
“Bwahahahahha. I got 9 thumbs down”
Piker. Nova got 28 last I looked.
Here’s one of the vids from Dalrock’s essay. This isn’t just some guy, this is a Baptist preacher.
60 year old married bloke. Since you have restarted this site. Brilliant. Deti is a legend.
Baptist preachers are just some guys.
Cosign everything Sentient and HABD said. Right, picture discussion time. @Morpheus – I’ll reply in Field Reports too, but the picture stuff could be useful for you too. LOL@ “undecided” on the bathroom selfie. Palma – your other two pictures are good. Hits the right “cool older guy” and “not a provider” vibes. You only need one of them though, not two. I would choose the one that is NOT a selfie for the reason HABD said. Also you really need to have one picture where she can see your face clearly (the two pictures you have you’re making a… Read more »
Re: what conservative Christian churches are teaching, most people aren’t conservative Christians, and Christ himself wouldn’t approve of much of what is done and said in his name. I understand,but cannot relate to the ” do what you were taught ” thing, because I wasn’t taught these same things ( be kind and nice and whateverthefuck “.) I was taught to treat people with respect until they give you a reason not to. I was taught that many see kindness as a weakness, so he kind but don’t be a sucker and watch your back. There’s no one thing to… Read more »
“I’m indifferent to guys that are lazy, whine, or claim things are hopeless.“ ~ SJF
Some (only some) men here sound like women who want something magical and special to happen to them while doing absolutely nothing to deserve it.
Even worse though, is that some (only some) MGTOW are not even pulling their own weight, and becoming as much as a liability to society as women often are. Understand that even the most forgiving of competent men find this intolerable.
Shit is gonna get rly fucking ugly in the coming decade or so…
It’s all well and good for men to improve, but where does it end? Hypergamy doesn’t care, remember? Only the biggest of the baddest alphas get to have their “pick,” and that sliver shrinks and shrinks as time marches on. How much of life passes us by in this rat race? How much technological progress is lost due to genius men having zero chance to get laid and as such having zero motivation to perform in life? Imagine, if you will, what could’ve been accomplished by now…curing cancer, curing aids, colonizing the stars system…
Evolving while still being human
Next scribb’s post:
“How can you not realize how much better and heroic those young single moms are? All those beautiful, beautiful, beautiful women surrounded by so many chumps! How dare you?!!!”
One does not need to be an MGTOW to recognize a blue-pill secret king wanna-be alpha.