Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

I revisited the topic of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) last Saturday on Rule Zero. I don’t like rehashing old debates I’ve learned will ultimately go nowhere. You simply wont reach most people who don’t want to be reached. Once they’ve had some experiential lessons in life, reinforced it with the tribalistic need to affirm the beliefs derived from that experience and then invest their egos in them it becomes kind of pointless. I’m not saying just give up on people, far from it, but do understand what you’re up against. This is why I say unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work, and a lot like triage. Know what’s worth expending energy for.

Most men, and nearly all women, don’t form a belief set based on multiple, independently funded, peer reviewed studies or statistical analyses. We go with experience first and then modify it from there.

I did a bit of preparation for this talk. My schedule last Saturday only permitted me an hour so I wanted to be succinct and throw out at least something new to the conversation. There’s a lot of tribalism in the Manosphere today and it’s no surprise that MGTOW as a tribe in growing – but likely not for the reasons most MGTOW would be willing to admit. MGTOW is becoming atomized and commercialized in the same manner as I predicted the Red Pill would (and has) last year.

What that means is MGTOW is rapidly becoming the same commercial vehicle for grifters that the Red Pill was just a year and a half ago. Life Coaches, Relationship Experts, Fitness Gurus, even Christian men’s ministry pastors are all looking online to find out ‘where have all the men gone?’ When men were found in the Red Pill this is where the grifters would coalesce. Thus, you had every ‘brand-of-me’ self-improvement hack calling himself “red pill”. A few of them still do. A few of them read verbatim from my book(s) and plagiarize it as their own. But more now I see these same grifters referring to themselves as MGTOW without realizing (or even caring) what it really means to men.

MGTOW is the new ‘brand’ that lifestyle ‘coaches’ are adding to their twitter profiles and YouTube channel About pages. They see the potential for growth by association. Even if they get owned in their comments and feeds, adding the tag MGTOW will draw clicks. A few of these ‘coaches’ had a familiarity with the tribe and decided to finally commit in the hopes that it would boost views, others are former ‘power-of-positivity‘ life-coaches who slide into MGTOW because the definition of what makes a man “go his own way” is so loose now that it can align with virtually anything the guy had written about before his new affiliation.

It’s a real short step from “Make yourself your Mental Point of Origin” to “Make yourself #1 in your life” and then to “Go your own way.” I’ve had at least four “dating experts” (one female) claim Mental Point of Origin was their own idea in their subscriber emails as recently as August. Grifters used the Red Pill and are now using MGTOW to legitimize their brands today. In 2015 the MRAs decided to appropriate the Red Pill as their own brand to name a feminist’s “journey of self-discovery” movie The Red Pill. This appropriation is continuing with MGTOW now.

As I said on the Red Man Group back in May, the Red Pill is going to have a real PR problem in the coming year. Everything I predicted in my State of the Manosphere address a year ago has come to pass and I predict it will only intensify in the 2020 election cycle. The Gender War needs a convenient, easy-to-hate villain to point to in order to reinforce the Future is Female narrative.

Very soon MGTOW will have the same PR problem. And once the next Eliot Rodger or Alex Minasian incident occurs you’ll see these grifters scatter from MGTOW like roaches when the lights come on. When there are dead women on the sidewalk somewhere, and the MSM is using terms like ‘MGTOW’, ‘Incel’ and ‘radicalization’ that is when all the ‘tribes’ of the Manosphere will throw each other under the bus. That’s when you’ll know who was ‘playing MGTOW’ for likes.

Adaptation

One thing this re-debate of MGTOW has made me reconsider is whether men are adapting to the new realities of the sexual marketplace or just looking to make their necessities a virtue. At its simplest MGTOW is men refusing to make women the measure of their lives, and then molding their lives to their own plan. This pairs nicely with virtually every pet ideology and ‘positivity’ grift in the ‘sphere today. Even Tradcons will agree with MGTOW if it means “Be the best man you can be“. It agrees with Mental Point of Origin. It agrees with Roissy – “You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.” It agrees with “Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

If that was all there was to MGTOW it would simply be Red Pill. What “MGTOW” life-coach grifters don’t realize is that MGOTW is a derivative of the Red Pill. I’ve always argued that once a guy becomes Red Pill aware he cannot help but live in some different fashion. Even the guys who go into complete denial can’t unsee the truths of intersexual dynamics. It’s what you actually do with that new awareness that sets apart Red Pill praxeology from MGTOW in practice. There’s more to MGTOW than just refusing to make women the measure of a man’s life – it’s also deciding what actually is deference to women. And that’s where it becomes highly subjective.

In my last post I outlined how women were upset there weren’t enough ‘eligible‘ men to marry in the current (westernized) sexual marketplace (SMP) today. Of course the two most common responses were either:

  • Women are the victims of the SMP they created. Women’s solipsistic, socially enabled entitlements to an ‘economically attractive’ man (a man who exceeds her own productivity by 58%) only proves the point that women’s social media bloated egos have made them unrealistic tyrants. Now their beliefs and actions have come home to roost.
  • This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?

For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. The Gender War of today exists because of a systematic segregation between men and women (don’t @me with the cultural marxism/’evil juice’ shit for the moment). Honestly, I’m sick of reading about how negative it is to merely point out the realities of this ‘gender cold war’ by Success Porn grifters, but is not MGTOW an adaptation to this segregation? Is not MGTOW an exacerbation of this segregation. When I read mantras like ‘Dogs, Dudes and Dolls’ it sounds an awful lot like ‘Cats, Girlfriends and Vibrators’.

Is MGTOW an adaptation to the conditions in a sexual marketplace that was (and still is) contrived by feminism/gynocentrism?

The following quote is from a long time commenter and friend Deti. This was from a larger discussion that began here if you want to get some context. Sorry guys, I just don’t have the space to repost the whole thread, but I don’t want this to get lost. Hopefully, it will inspire further discussion in this post’s comments:

I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.

About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Women responded to and lived within that milieu in a number of ways.

Using soft power, manipulation, deceit, subterfuge, behind the scenes machinations. Most women were more or less OK with marrying an OK guy, having OK sex, and living an OK life.

Of course, sometimes women cheated on the downlow. Sometimes women cuckolded husbands. I mean real actual traditional definition of cuckolding, which is a married woman getting pregnant by an Alpha and passing the child(ren) off as the Beta Husband’s. There’s no way to know how often that happened, but it wasn’t really rare – Maybe anywhere from 5 to 20% of children then weren’t fathered by their bio-moms’ husbands. In rare cases, not marrying and becoming spinsters, living as bohemians or as “favorite cousins” or “favorite aunts” with male relatives, working as teachers or seamstresses or some other job, and being live in nanny/maid. In rare cases, divorcing and living off family money or a husband’s alimony money. Living as widows and not remarrying.

The point is that women learned how to adapt. There are a lot of reasons for that, but they did adapt.

The main responses men have used today to adapt to changing circumstances have been:

  1. Game/PUA/Seduction – Use the changes to men’s advantage and go for easy sex and the bachelor lifestyle.
  2. MRA – Fighting the changes to advocate for either equalizing the laws or rolling them back to a return to Marriage 1.0 and pre-sexual revolution status.
  3. MGTOW – Check out of the new system, refuse to support or participate in it, and eschew relationships with women to varying degrees.

About, oh, 20 years in, I think we can safely say that option 2) is dead in the water and has been for some time. About the only real reforms here are that divorce and family laws are slowly, very, very slowly, moving toward 50/50 residential custody and away from alimony (except in the case of longer term marriages with breadwinner spouse/dependent nonemployed wife). Unless you have been married more than 20 years and support a housewife, you probably will not be paying alimony except for temporarily. Thats about the entire sum and substance of how “equal” it’s going to get between men and women.

That leaves 1) Game; and (3) MGTOW.

It’s hard to tell what will come out of this. I think we can say:

• Marriage 1.0 is dead and we are never going back to it for at least 2 more generations. If you think you’re going to have a “traditional marriage” where you don’t have to do much to maintain it or you can let up on your attractiveness levels, think again. Because that is not going to happen. If you’re going to marry a woman, you need to improve your attractiveness, marry a woman who is not financially dependent on you, and cultivate your own life separate and apart from her. You need a contingency plan in the event the marriage goes south. And with all that, you need to consider whether you want to risk bringing kids into the mix. You absolutely need a prenuptial agreement, even if it gets judicially torn up or modified later.

The bottom line is, people are still marrying, it’s just that it’s all being pushed out later and later, and people are staying single longer and spending less time married. Many women are meeting the men they eventually marry in their early to mid 20s, and then marrying in their late 20s and early 30s. That’s a paradigm that’s increasing in frequency; this idea of long term dating and engagements lasting 2 to 5 years while both the man and woman establish their careers.

If you want long term relationships you should consider marriage alternatives like living together, or being exclusive while living apart. You absolutely must avoid at all costs these polyamory/polygyny situations, and open marriages. You absolutely must avoid women who want to continue AF’ing it even after they marry. That must be an absolute no go, not an option, ever.

• Men have to improve and increase their sexual attractiveness to create, maintain, and sustain relationships with women. You can’t let up here. That’s IF you want relationships with women.

• More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.

For most men, avoiding women entirely, except for paying hookers, is a no go. The thirst is that strong. The male sex drive is that potent. Most men want to have some contact with women, even if it’s just random hookups now and again. And the only way to do that is to make yourself as sexually attractive as possible. That just is so. Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women. So if you want sex partners, you have to make yourself sexually attractive. And you have to know male and female sexual nature, so that you know what you’re getting into, you know what you’re seeing, you know what women are doing, and you know what women really mean when they talk.

For men, improving one’s own attractiveness increases one’s power in the market. It increases his ability to control some of the selection process. It gives him an abundance mentality. It gives him the power to walk away from situations that disadvantage him. It gives him the ability to tell women “no” and to reject women who cannot or will not give him what he wants and needs.

On the other hand, going your own way can also increase your power in the market. It maximizes your control over your own life. It sharply reduces your responsibilities to others, and increases your opportunities. It frees up your resources to expend the way you want. Sharp reductions in responsibility means a sharp reduction in the needed resources for day to day living, meaning you can work less and increase your leisure time.

I think that more and more men will go pure MGTOW, which is essentially “make the best of a tough situation, be single, and don’t have a family. At least that’s better than getting divorce raped and it’s less work than going to the gym, getting in shape, and eating clean. This way I can eat what I want and work 30 hours a week, and live by myself in my apartment”. It’s kind of similar to women 100 years ago, where the path of least resistance was for Bertha BigGirl, Martha Dumptruck, and Plain Jane to “find a decent, OK man to support me, and probably have at least 3 of his kids. At least it’s better than living with Mom until she dies, and then having to live with my brother and his wife, and taking care of their kids.” And similar to the spinster, the MGTOW will be low status, or at least perceived as low status. But for the spinster and the MGTOW, their lifestyles will be at least better than whatever else they could have gotten.

Guys, Nova is absolutely correct in that men by and large are not adapting.

I think that what’s going on is that many men are saying “want to stay the same, don’t want to do a lot of work, but I still want women to be attracted to me and to be able to date a lot and eventually get married and have a family like (a) mom and dad had when I was growing up; or (b) like I didn’t get to have growing up.” Well, you can’t have that, at least not without working for it. If you want something you’re going to have to work for it. If you want women and sex, you’re going to have to make yourself attractive to women. And the way you’re going to do that, the only way to do that, is to stand out. And the way you stand out is by improving every area of your life – your job, your body, your finances, your lifestyle, your hobbies, your social acumen, and everything else that involves you going through your life.

The funny thing is that when a man stops caring so much about it, forgets about women, and sets about improving his life, he starts attracting women.

That’s the current state of things, I think.

I don’t disagree that we’re presently at a turning point in intersexual relations. After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable. Now that we’re 50 odd years past that point we’re figuring out how reproduction, love, marriage, and something as simple as boy-meets-girl is going to look for future generations. The internet and a social media acculturation on a global scale has seen to it that it will likely never look like it did under the old social contract. There’s a theory that post-agrarian societies experienced a similar shift in intersexual dynamics in our ancestral past. Socially enforced monogamy was the obvious intersexual shift.

Right now we’re seeing a similar shift in intersexual relations. Is it simply better for men and women to live segregated lives? I don’t believe so, but it seems like a larger cultural narrative believes it’s time for both men and women to go their own ways. Until one side concedes, fuck any notion of evolved complementarity is the narrative I guess.

I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting. They always have. It’s that the adaptation is counter to what we might hope is the natural order between men and women.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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tucsonrazorbacks
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Wasn’t it said, “The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” …as quoted by none other than Albert Einstein? The machines and AI are coming, if not already here influenced our evolutionary progress. Deal with it and do the work. Great article. Informative.

GW
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GW
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A couple of comments. @Rollo, for me!, the best part of all your writings are the learnings, conclusions you and others you synthesize, and specific actionable information you provide. The fair weather grifters will always be a part of any growing group, and I guess I am less interested in the details of that (beyond what it means for me, my kids, friends, men in general, etc.). I know that this is your world, so please understand I mean no disrespect. This is simply my input. The absolute gravy in this post was your framing of Deti’s comment and the… Read more »

A.T.
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A.T.
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I think there are different segments/groups of MGTOW. I could be wrong, but it seems there are: The men who are truly going their own way- and making themselves their mental point of origin. I’ll put the Monks in this group as well. The Incels: who claim MGTOW only because it’s the closest form of red pill they can identify with. “Dollbangers” may also be in this group. And 3. The guys who take on the philosophy of “women aint sh**” but still may get with a woman here and there for just a pump and dump. I’ve seen some… Read more »

constrainedlocus
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Both men and women have adapted, no question. I think men have adapted and responded more slowly however. What I find so interesting however is the readiness with which so many are now wanting to deride the Mgtow guys as some of kind of losers in life, unattractive, fat failures and Darwin Trophy winners, and oh so scared of women. I mean, Jesus Christ, set aside for one moment the brutal dating scene, prolific STI rates, SSRI abuse, the underwhelming value proposition of Marriage 2.0, the reality of Divorce Corp, the Cock Carousel, Open Hypergamy – set it all aside… Read more »

elooie
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elooie
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While I don’t disagree that there are basically two choices men can make but it completely ignores the biggest reason that men are checking out. The inflated ego of women. Most women are Honda civics but they are all demanding Ferrari prices. I’d even argue as the “price” (effort men need to put in) increases because of women’s ego, they are actually decreasing in value. How many women still act feminine, cook, are good with children, and see relationships as a partnership instead of a dominance competition? I meet women all the time but finding any worthy of marriage or… Read more »

Tom Lemke
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Tom Lemke
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About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Citation needed. This sounds like it’s parroting the Christian Feminist article of faith that “feminism only came about because men were abusing their authority over women”. I’m no scholar, but it seems to me that — rather than being geared toward MEN — the SMP and MMP in the West were geared toward the preservation of social order. In other words, for the good of EVERYONE. Yes, this implicitly… Read more »

Daniel Hughes
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Daniel Hughes
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Very few have adapted. The point on tribalism estends to every facet of modern life. People are incredibly easy to influence because they don’t understand how they have been made weak. All schooling is anti education on a personal level. Sure learning law makes you a few shackles but your only learning some one else’s agenda. The whole of western society is a control system. Make them weak through schooling, (anti education) divide them through scams such as personal development, racial issues, gender, sexual orientation, party politics, global warming. Everyone wants to swim with the same fish in the same… Read more »

Tyler
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Tyler
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I think Deti leaves out some obvious points, I’m not sure if on purpose or not. Is Deti a woman? First, Men and women also have an abundance of porn, devices, robots soon, and entertainment options to fill their time. I think this works more in men’s favour, as we are more interested in objects, and women in people. Second, why would men need to up their game if women find that they have less options, or as they like to put it, “where are all the real men?” Last, men don’t only work hard in all sectors of life… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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Yollo Comanche
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Male social behavior needs the rigorous Red Pill lens that we have put on women.

Part of the allure of MGTOW is the way they call you a pussy-begger to terminate any debate.

They learned that as a way to dismiss the same men that set up hoops to jump through for them as well.

If you can’t win, why play? Many men become their own brand so that they never have to play:

“Who are you and why should I care?”

ever again. Life gets hard but what do you do as a contingency when this thing takes place?

jsolbakken
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jsolbakken
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About this bit in your quoted text: “(a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.” What about (c) they did the work and found that the women they attracted were not suitable for any relationship they were interested in? I had several girlfriends in my younger days (I’m 60 now) and I’m grateful to God that I did not get stuck with any of them. Any guy who did the work and still couldn’t attract women should be grateful… Read more »

kooshareem
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@constrainedlocus, I mostly agree, and I will add that a man’s age is a significant factor. There are many men who find themselves in divorce after the age of 50, and after long marriages. I believe that, when those men consider the hard ridden and bat shit crazy women that are available, they simply decide that the juice is not worth the squeeze in the time that remains.

simonwildcat
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I don’t see one word of understanding of what MGTOW actually is written here; just the usual idea that MGTOW are basement dwelling losers who aren’t willing to “step up and do the work”… Most of the MGTOW I know are great and highly succesful men who made a superbly rational choice about the women of today – they are not worth ANY kind of effort or investment in terms of time, money, mental or emotional energy.

SJF
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I don’t see one word of understanding of what MGTOW actually is written here; Why don’t you explain it? …just the usual idea that MGTOW are basement dwelling losers who aren’t willing to “step up and do the work”… Sure. It’s a judgement. It’s what men do in groups of men. Most of the MGTOW I know are great and highly succesful men who made a superbly rational choice about the women of today – That’s a judgement. Easily judged else-wise by another man. they are not worth ANY kind of effort or investment in terms of time, money, mental… Read more »

TJ
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TJ
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The burning question in my mind while I read this essay, is: What if I am attractive and do stay fit, simply because I want to, but don’t want to participate in the SMP any longer? I’m 40 years old and had plenty of sex in my 20’s and 30’s; been engaged twice but never pulled the trigger. I found the Red Pill after my last bad breakup, and decided I just wanted to focus on myself and my kid. I saw the risks in this current MeToo culture and decided the juice just wasn’t worth the squeeze. Why risk… Read more »

Just Beers
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Just Beers
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So, a couple of things. It always seemed to me that the nuclear family was never, by itself, the center of civilization. It was necessarily nested within a village/town/religious ethic. Large groups of families were on the same page, and the pairing of men and women through some sort of binding agreement had created the stable environment within which to raise children and prosper as a culture. The trad cons are trying to move forward with that same script, and they are having a tough go of it. Now, there are only attenuated “villages”, just the matrix and “society” and… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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So what you are saying is that there are not women “worth it” out there, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. But at the same time you are not (as Rian Stone points out) defining what your container words “squeeze” and “juice” actually are… “Is there anything about my strategy that isn’t noble? If I’m not wanting to “spin plates” or hit the bars looking for a piece of ass every Friday, am I somehow any less of a man?” As judged by a fellow man? By some of us? Yes. Most certainly. But are you asking for external validation?… Read more »

Dr. No
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Damn square we are adapting. Men are problem-solvers. Here’s the rub: Rorschach any intersexual dynamic article anywhere written by a woman and we find: 1. Entitlement; 2. Victim mental perspective; 3. New since Meeee Tooooo — mob mentality. Combine the above with the emotion>reason of the woman, and ANY situation involving a woman is highly unpredictable and therefore hazardous. (In medicine nothing is being done differently — too damn busy and tired to be thinking hanky-panky — but suddenly the discipline is besieged with claims of physician impropriety.) Not MGTOW and much success before the madness, but have now taken… Read more »

theasdgamer
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“For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. “ I agree, but did you mean to speak about politics? “I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting.” Looking at it from an evolutionary perspective, many men aren’t reproducing, nor are women. Their genes are simply being filtered out. From an evolutionary perspective, any “adaptation” that doesn’t reproduce its genes is irrelevant because (say it with me) it’s about babies all the way down. Such adaptations are simply invisible in a biological sense. Let’s stick with an evolutionary perspective on… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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😁

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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It depends on perspective and ( learned ) beliefs. Men saying ” they aren’t worth the squeeze ” or some variant is exactly the same as ” there are no good men “. It depends on where one lives and how interactive one is with his environment. Nowhere is everyone” crazy ” , but you will see that it it’s what you want to believe for whatever reasons. If I lived somewhere where it was impossible to ” find a woman worth x “, 2 things might happen, 1) I’d fucking move. 2) I’d have to look at why I… Read more »

Chris
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Chris
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“About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men…” This sounds too much like the claims of feminism and their belief in the all-encompassing “patriarchy”. It may have been geared more towards men then women, but women had a part in shaping it too. But regarding the male sex drive. Yes it is potent, to the point where most women simply can’t understand, unless they take bulk testosterone. But it decreases after early 20s. Other factors like stress, overwork, being out of shape can decrease it too. And anti-depressants a factor, a lot of men are taking those now… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient
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Palma
“In THEORY, and formerly in practice, men and women were complimentary and better together than apart.

But looking at current women in the current social and legal structure, then in the majority of occasions, you have to come to a very different conclusion.”

Masculine is complimented by Feminine. Feminine is complimented by Masculine.

When you have feminine men and masculine women, there is no compliment.

Sentient
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Sentient
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ConstrainedLocus “And then, as if that’s not enough, you have a bunch of Yoda-esque dick-swinging contestants online telling you about how you’re too beta, you don’t have enough frame, your cock isn’t thick enough, you’re too fucking short, you’re are too fat, too soft, your body language is all off, and goddammit pansy, you’re not swole enough……And that is why you fail!” Short one, typing one handed what with the dick swinging and all… Beta, frame and body language are real. The rest is just your Bullshit. What Game does that all this wailing and gnashing doesn’t is give you… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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Porn watching isn’t low libido. It’s a Buffer. And it is Stasis personified. So are MGTOW and fucking dolls. It is The Red Queen–(Lewis Carroll’s Red Queen from Through the Looking-Glass, a character who has to keep running to stay in the same place…) Adversity shouldn’t make you want to run and hide, or stay in the same place. https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/26/buffers/ As a Man, you are going to face rejection in far more facets of your life than just dealing with a woman. The buffers you learn in one aspect of your life will be just as encumbering when they’re transferred… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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“But regarding the male sex drive. Yes it is potent, to the point where most women simply can’t understand, unless they take bulk testosterone. But it decreases after early 20s. Other factors like stress, overwork, being out of shape can decrease it too. And anti-depressants a factor, a lot of men are taking those now too. So for a lot of men who’s libidos have dropped, and who aren’t particularly attractive to women, going hard MGTOW really would be the path of least resistance. ” Wow. I guess much of this may be true nowadays, but its a catastrophe imo… Read more »

My Comment
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My Comment
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In spite of what the red pill hucksters tell men, most men are not going to become alpha Chad’s, especially as the middle class and working class disappear. If the betas of the world hit the gym, get jacked, improve their game and develop successful revenue streams, women will simply raise the bar of what they want in a man. High status is relative not a set ideal. Consequently MGTOW is inevitable unless men set no floor on how little they will require from women. Women are consistently becoming less attractive on emotional, physical, financial, legal and mental levels. The… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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😂 people evidently don’t grasp ” status ” very well, but they seem to be able to identify it in others.

You can’t negotiate desire, but you can purchase pussy. Don’t complain about the price of you only know how to buy it.

Women raise the bar in the same sense that roosters make the sun rise.

Novaseeker
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Novaseeker
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If the betas of the world hit the gym, get jacked, improve their game and develop successful revenue streams, women will simply raise the bar of what they want in a man. High status is relative not a set ideal. This is another rationalizing buffer. The fact is, and you know this is true, that very few betas will ever do that. You don’t have to worry about your hypothetical ever taking place, because you and I both know that it will never take place — there are too many rationalizations betas will use, including this one, to NOT do… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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“And then, as if that’s not enough, you have a bunch of Yoda-esque dick-swinging contestants online telling you about how you’re too beta, ”

It’s a thing.

” you don’t have enough frame, ”

This is a thing too.

“your cock isn’t thick enough, ”

😂 ( pulls out dick )

” you’re too fucking short, ”

Smirk.

” you’re are too fat, ”

Steps on scale.

” too soft, ”

Strikes most muscular pose.

” your body language is all off, ”

Cock head to one side like a dog hearing a strange sound.

Yup, it’s an all you can eat buffer.

Leavetheseatup
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Rollo….be careful with coop. He’s a huckster bully riding on your coattails. His attack on coach greg was uncalled for. MGTOW is a perfectly rational response to the dark triad monsters known as American women and the system that perpetuates their existance. Greg provides gritty on the street advice that some of the goobers in your rule zero group havent a clue about. That mld guy is freaking pathetic.

Leavetheseatup
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I dont believe that Adams is a grifter. His back story and life experiences (if true) make him a perfect example of why one chooses to get off the plantation. He has an excellent point about many dating coaches (and Rule Zero folks) trying to encourage men to learn game and all that so they can end up in LTR/marriage traps, while hes trying to encourage guys not to play the game and just walk the f away. No matter what Adams is or isnt though doesnt change the fact that coop should have just manned up and apologized. Lighten… Read more »

‘Reality’ Doug
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Wow, that’s not pithy. Cucks don’t adapt, they cuck, if they can. They can always pine. And don’t we all just a bit. I’ve come to the conclusion that we are downbred. Government picks winner and losers. They bred us dumb, maybe the past 150 years: Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man (1871). It’s over now. Even in the alt-right I get irritated at the mental density. Queuing Ron White: “You can’t fix stupid.” The sexes are asymmetrical. Women adapted? They had options. Men at large are more kind. In this perversion of civilized materialism and herd coordination most men… Read more »

TJ
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@SJF, thank you for your reply to my comment. In this context, I would define “The Juice” as the return on investment for a man who puts in “The Squeeze” to establish and maintain a relationship. I would define “The Squeeze” as the effort a man must put in to establish and maintain that relationship with a female in the United States in 2019. I have no experience outside of the United States, so I cannot speak to the experience of men in other countries. In 2019, we see the majority of single females becoming of a mindset that they… Read more »

Ringo Starr
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Hi guys, first time poster. I’ve been following this blog since I stumbled on some MGTOW videos a couple years ago when youtube still would recommend them to you. They alerted me to the existence of Rollo’s book. I enjoyed them greatly. I read The Game back in 2008 and noticed that women who put me in the friendzone will acknowledge it that it has truth in them, but will police me when I tried practicing some of these techniques on other women. I am no alpha, by any means, and I didn’t think much of it until 2003. That’s… Read more »

Chris
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“Imo if your libido is tanking in your 20’s, your quality of life is going to suffer over the long haul because something has gone awry with hormones.”

It’s rare that a man’s libido will tank in their 20s, but it will often tend to slowly decrease. And if you’re already on a MGTOW path, that gradual decrease will make it increasingly easy to live without sex.

I have to wonder about the role of anti-depressant medication in the current sexual marketplace. A lot of people, men and woman, are on those and they often do tend to suppress people’s sex drives.

Ringo Starr
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The gender wars is a refactoring of intersexual relations, and men are in full retreat. Since the sexual revolution, men has lost a lot of power. I believe MGTOW is akin to workers going on strike. When labor goes on strike management simply re-calibrates and gives away just enough to keep the system humming but still keeps the bulk of the profits. When you apply this analogy to men and women in the last 50 years women grabbed all the beef and left nothing. It is only when they pushed past the line most men would find tolerable that those… Read more »

Novaseeker
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Reading through these comments, it is truly amazing how fixated men are on the systemic issue. It is revealing that most men rely on external incentives, I guess. Sad. Systemic issues are only resolvable over a long time frame, in most cases much longer than the timeframe of your life when it comes to the relevant bits of being a productive, healthy man — again, leaving women out of the picture. You can, however, improve your own personal outcome. Yet everyone wants to obsess about how this won’t help the system. So? The system can’t be changed in any timeframe… Read more »

theasdgamer
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“Men survive alone.”

Are you keyboard jockeying from your hermit hut? lol

theasdgamer
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“If the betas of the world hit the gym, get jacked, improve their game and develop successful revenue streams, women will simply raise the bar of what they want in a man. “ Women simply don’t work like that. You obviously have no experience with women and your statement isn’t based on anything that you have seen. Just like men have a minimum looks threshold, women have a similar threshold as regards manliness. Just like women have gotten fat because of laziness and so many have dropped below the minimum threshold for most men, so many men have gotten lazy… Read more »

rugby11
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https://youtu.be/hxsld16TjSU
Id rather be a farther than a husband

theasdgamer
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“Women raise the bar”

…if you are shrinking, it sure as hell will look like the bar is being raised…lol

Joe
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You boomer fucks have nothing to offer young men other than empty platitudes like lift, hold frame and work on your game. The SMP is so incredibly stacked against young men it’s these same boomer fucks telling young men that are also completely outpriced in the housing market as wages have stagnated for decades to “put in the work” but their value on their shitty houses skyrocket from these economic bubbles just by sitting on it. It’s funny watching boomers as they bone their post wall hoes telling young guys to adapt when they didn’t have to deal with affirmative… Read more »

Blaximus
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Ringo Welcome and thanks for your comments. You too @ chris. Men improving themselves is nothing like kids doing stuff to get into elite university. You improve yourself for yourself, and to have a better and more fulfilling life without all that angst and worry about what society/women/social media is doing. I’m a certified car nut, so I’ll use my thoughts about the thing I have a very strong affinity for ( women in my life have oft said that they come 2nd to my cars…😂). Back in the good old days cars used to be priced so that almost… Read more »

Blaximus
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Heeeyyyy Joe, where you going with that gun in your hand….

Blaximus
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” My last ex destroyed a perfectly good relationship of 2 years after she decided to try monkey branching and overplayed her hand.

…..

I see.

Blaximus
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” When the US is already one of the top overworked countries in the world next to Asia and there’s shit to fix, errand running, cooking, working out and just being generally productive why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once the honey moon phase wears off for her in a couple years and I have to constantly monitor her attraction level by playing through narrow margins of alpha and beta, inserting just the right amount of dread game to keep her going…or……..you can still play the “game” as… Read more »

Marchárl
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Thank you Rollo for this very informative article. One comment though: it is quite long-winded and technical – as my first language isn’t English I wouldn’t mind a simplified version…

Morpheus
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It’s funny watching boomers as they bone their post wall hoes telling young guys to adapt when they didn’t have to deal with affirmative action everywhere, college campus rape bullshit, tinder, facebook, instagram, affirmative action,where competition wasn’t globalized in a broken system and guys like Roosh freely admitting game is alot harder now than it is then. When instagram status game is becoming necessary to attract chicks at your fake lifestyle this shit is getting fucking ridiculous. Who the fuck has time to approach 100 girls a week at a 8% success rate considered an alright ratio for just getting… Read more »

Morpheus
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Blax,

NOT EVERYONE HAS THE ABILITY OR TIME TO BUILD THE SKILLSET TO CONSTRUCT THEIR OWN CAR.
In the end, the MARKET IS THE MARKET, and the types of cars available for purchase at particular asking prices impacts the ENTIRE MARKET and will influence the buying behavior of purchasers.

Some may inevitably say, you know what, fuck it, I’ll walk, ride a bike, or take public transportation, I don’t need a fucking car.

Morpheus
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Reading through these comments, it is truly amazing how fixated men are on the systemic issue. It is revealing that most men rely on external incentives, I guess. Sad. Nova, There is some of that yes, but i think there is something else. I think not too long ago, there was a OK I become an above average guy, “work on myself”…finances, looks/ social skills/Game and I get an above average woman. OK, good deal. Now, i think there is more of Well, I become Superman and I get an Average girl…ummm, no thanks. Once you remove women as motivator,… Read more »

constrainedlocus
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@Sentient Beta, frame and body language are real. The rest is just your Bullshit. What Game does that all this wailing and gnashing doesn’t is give you actual, predictable and repeatable methods to succeed. But as Yoda says “there is no try”… I do not deny the beta vs alpha dynamic. I don’t deny that game works. It works all too well. Especially now with the modern day vacuum of masculinity just about anywhere one would decide to look or tread – to study, work, travel or play. Male frame and body language? I agree, those are also valid points… Read more »

Culum Struan
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I agree with Novaseeker and Blax. I just want to add one thing quickly – it’s not a dichotomy between individual action and social change. On the contrary, it IS individual action that leads to social change. Aka, “leading from the front”, and the old quote “be the change you want to see”. YOU – yes, YOU, reading this – have to change yourself, for yourself. If you really do the hard work and change yourself, other men will be inspired and change themselves, and if enough men do that, there’s your social change. And if they don’t – you… Read more »

The Inimitable NEET
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@Ringo Starr While the male sex drive is an inexorable force prior to middle age, our technologically advanced, liberally slanted, globally connected world provides many ways to circumvent and channel it into avenues directly opposed to the Feminine Imperative. Remember that to women, male lust is a double-edged sword: it can make the most obstinate guy as malleable as silly putty, but it is also easily satisfied by any service that simply approximates the experience of real sex. In the last 25 years entertainment has made significant challenges to women’s hegemony over that subject. A cornucopia of every single porn… Read more »

The Inimitable NEET
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@Morpheus

You’re making the mistake radical academic feminists have in their attempts to frame masculinity as a flawed social construction: conflating the semiotics of any particular cultural manifestation separate from the way of life and virtues it cultivates. Masculinity as a concept is best described as an example of sophrosyne rooted in biological inclinations, the details can be left up to those interested in quibbles. What really constitutes masculinity is academic. The virtues constantly morph in response to social and cultural context e.g. 9th century Japan had no less than 4 versions existing simultaneously, largely rooted in social class.

TT
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This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

That’s, of course, out of question. Nothing, except a return to patriarchy, will bring balance into the intersexual supply and demand.

ex-cartoonist
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I want to make a distinction between MGTOW as a ‘men’s movement’ and MGTOW as a concept. Technically, I’m a Man Going His Own Way but I do not want to be part of a movement. For me, MGTOW as a concept is not so much a ‘thing’ as the absence of a thing. That is to say, when I split up with my last girlfriend three years ago, I didn’t think ‘Right! I’m going MGTOW!’ I just lived my life, took care of my business, and pursued my ambitions. And in the three years since the split, I have… Read more »

TT
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@Palmasailor In THEORY, and formerly in practice, men and women were complimentary and better together than apart. But looking at current women in the current social and legal structure, then in the majority of occasions, you have to come to a very different conclusion. Well… you have nature, nurture (the cultural marxist “crap” we are invited to not see), and even within nature, divergent, contrasting drives. Ferenczi’s Thalassa delves quite seriously into the hostility embedded in female-male affairs. It’s ancestral, it’s… original (there from the origins). Then there’s the drive to join together, co-operate… because it’s convenient for both. The… Read more »

TT
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@Tom Lemke

I’m no scholar, but it seems to me that — rather than being geared toward MEN — the SMP and MMP in the West were geared toward the preservation of social order.

Why reason as tough those two things couldn’t be both the case at once?
To engineer things towards social preservation you had to favour men in the sexual marketplace. Because the natural balance skews strongly toward the women, you need patriarchy for evenness in the market.
(Of course, a number of men abused that, and vexed women, being quite free to do it.)

TT
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@Morpheus I’m 6’3″, in great shape, and I gotta be honest 70-80% of the matches I do get (and frankly it is a pretty low percentage of the ones I swipe on) are barely bangable. My match rate with my “equivalent” peer which I would say is 40-45 equivalent looks is actually pretty low which makes me wonder what these women are holding out for, its not enough to be tall and good looking to just get the match, but you better be a CEO too, and your pictures show you are rocking status and rich as fuck? I literally… Read more »

rugby11
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Rules and Sexual intercourse

Morpheus
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PalmaSailor, There is A LOT to respond to there and my leg workout is calling, but I’ll get to it all, and try to write up a detailed report on the Date 2 bang…I may even post a pic because I’m curious how she would be rated in comparison to the REALITY of what I see on the dating apps for the majority of women along with the REALITY of women I see in real life. There are some commenters where I get the image in my mind of all these really attractive women EVERYWHERE and I really think to… Read more »

Rudd
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Deti, talk about hitting the nail on the head, out of the ball park spot on ! I could not concur with him anymore. I reckon majority of men are just not prepared to do the real hard work on themselves and accept the burden of perormance. Instead they will blame women, feminism on one side, and be a completely lazy fuck not willing to work on himself, and choosing MGTOW as an absolute pathetic copout.

Guys, get your shit together, work on yourself and make yourself into objects that women will want to fuck with desire !

rugby11
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MGTOW vs improvement on self
First customer as self

Sentient
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ConstrainedLocus

I’d just like to see more of us going in eyes wide open.

To what? Hypotheticals or real life?

Getting arrested by campus police and charged with sexual assault after an FNL is also anything but bullshit anymore.

Losing your job, your scholarship, your career and your personal reputation based on nothing but hearsay from emotionally compromised adults is not bullshit either.

Has this happened to you? Has this happened to anyone you personally know? Someone you speak with?

I’ll give you this, your handle is not ironic.

Sentient
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Joe Who the fuck has time to approach 100 girls a week at a 8% success rate considered an alright ratio for just getting a contact that has a good chance of flaking? Yeah why would you want to work on your game, if this is your expectation? lol Those stats are autists and brown people running around doing London Daygame shit… Most of them would rather fail putting up huge numbers than succeed by really trying to understand game and do proper cold approach pick up. It’s built in to their whole psyche… Then they can sit around with… Read more »

Blaximus
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So is the overarching consensus here is that self improvement and masculinity are dead ends?

Have a large number of men drank the ” toxic masculinity ” kool aid??

Sentient
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Blax

Shut up you bigged dick boomer fuck!

Blaximus
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😂

Yeah I chuckled at that whole ” boomer fuck ” thing.

Novaseeker
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I think many men struggle to find meaning and purpose. For centuries, organized religion provided that role. Also, women and family. And underlying economic necessities. When you remove all of those, what is left? Is it any wonder that some men distract themselves in a world of porn and video gaming? I actually think neither of those are bad in some small doses, but obviously unhealthy if they take over everything. And don’t get me started on Corporate America…as it has become more feminized, the tangible connection between performance and results and rewards is being decoupled. Do you think that… Read more »

Daniel
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I suppose, according to your assessment, I would be more red pill than MGTOW, though I think in the latter it is too simplistic in the two scenarios you describe to paint them as giving up and not bothering to do the work as they either can’t get female attention if they do or they can’t be bothered because it’s implied they’re too lazy. I believe there is a third option. This is anecdotal for sure as I am basing it on myself, but I am someone who is divorced, almost fifty, a self made millionaire, in the gym regularly,… Read more »

Blaximus
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Morpheus Honest question: when you were married, we’re you still approached by women for sex? I ask because there’s a consistent theme put forth that seems to indicate that a man’s life ends or is significantly hampered wrt to opportunities with women. I’m trying to u understand why a lot of comments here say stuff like ” have no idea how much things have changed ” , when marriage isn’t supposed to insulate men in a vacuum tube so that they aren’t aware. Why is it that after divorce so many men are shocked at what dating options are like?… Read more »

Culum Struan
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@Morpheus, yes that was me about online dating. Yes I did very well out of it but within the limitations of online dating itself. I would say that you should focus primarily on IRL – because the girls are hotter in real life and the issues that affect you in getting hot young girls online (your age primarily, plus the fact that online is tilted to the girls’ advantage). Online is fine as an adjunct – I have mostly stopped but still find it useful if I’m horny or I’m travelling etc – but really the focus is on IRL.… Read more »

John O.
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Nowadays, marriages in the West seem to operate in a vacuum, without acknowledging the fact that each partner has effectively joined another family. Family ties on both sides tend to check anti-familial/anti-social behaviour such as marital implosion due to a wife’s boredom or a husband’s roving eye. There’s something to be said for arranged marriages where each partner is positively vetted. After all, it’s not so far removed from the days when families moved in the same circles and pointed out potential spouses for a son, daughter, nephew, niece. This is still the norm in other cultures, despite increasing westernization… Read more »

A MGTOW
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I’ll weigh in a bit on this post. Interesting stuff, and I see applicability in my own life. I’m in my late 50s. Been married twice, have two grown daughters and grandkids. I consider my mission in life, contributing my genes to the next generation(s), to be fulfilled. I consider myself a MGTOW, but I take issue with much of how MGTOW is perceived, even among the red pill community. The original term “men going their own way” was coined quite by accident. Some years ago, there was a relatively small group of men using computer chat and trying to… Read more »

Cistwo
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Rollo I greatly enjoy your work and you have made a positive impact on my life however I have to agree with some other posters that unless you are guy from 18-35 actively dating in today’s market in terms of looking for a 18-25 to share a purpose with and have a LTR/family or even just looking for easy sex then you cannot see where most men are coming from in terms of the lack of quality and coldness of girls these days. I can see where MGTOW come from in terms of the juice isn’t worth the squeeze and… Read more »

Mijas
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I think that something like this must have happened when the Roman civilization declined into the dark ages. As Rome collapsed the monastic lifestyle (medieval MGTOW) became more and more popular. Not everyone could marry and have children because the economic output could not support that, and so some people adapted by moving into a monastery. Around this time too, due to the chaos caused by a weakened Rome and mass migrations, military strongmen (medieval alphas) where in control and probably were getting a lot of attention from women (I’m sure some women then didn’t mind being impregnated by legendary… Read more »

IRL
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Why is online “dating” acknowledged to be broken… only to be actively pursued as the main option?

“Too busy for irl” is a false economy.

theasdgamer
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“The SMP is so incredibly stacked against young men”

“The SMP is so incredibly stacked against lazy men”

fify

“why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once the honey moon phase wears off “

“why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once she realizes that I’m an insecure girly man who doesn’t enforce his boundaries or have relationship skills”

fify

Blaximus
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IRL I’ve been miffed by that idea as well, but I’ve basically given up trying to understand it. When a guy says impossible to find women that aren’t crazy, disease ridden whores that want to take all of your stuff and then you into a slave, and then go on to using tinder, bumble, ok stupid, whore finder as proof, I can’t take that seriously. Yet that stance appears unchallenable. After divorce I had one ” online ” experience that resulted in snl because that’s what the site was set up to do. I lost all interest in that afterwards… Read more »

theasdgamer
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Hi @Morpheus “I’m 6’3″, in great shape, and I gotta be honest 70-80% of the matches I do get” Manly men don’t waste their time with online dating. Go to some “meat markets” like I do. I was in a bar and told a broad that if I used online dating apps, my intro would be “If you’re going to waste my time, fuck off.” Just making conversation. She was trying to french me and feel me up after that. Right in the bar with no privacy at all. Running my hands over her boobs. She found me at the… Read more »

RedPill Practical
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I see men and women as two parties to a contract that needs to get done because the deal is reproduction in the micro, but macro wise its western civilization.
Feminism is allowing women to both inflate their worth/lower their quality via supply and demand. Men now have two things that they/we can do to bargain better, improve our side of the deal (game, red pill and all it entails), or simply saying no deal (MGTOW). It may work on the micro because women can always fine another male to deal with,…but shit breaks down badly if it goes macro

theasdgamer
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“Girls under 30 don’t pick guys who are 45 unless it is for Sugar Daddy arrangements.” lol “Girls under 30 don’t pick betas who are 45 unless it is for Sugar Daddy arrangements.” fify you really don’t understand how women see men a man who is over 40 and has his shit together (has some resources, shows social dominance, and knows his way around women) is very sexually attractive to women just recently two women hinted that I might be the father of my granddaughter…sure, it was teasing…and sure, it was an attempt to flatter…and sure, there was a kernel… Read more »

Blaximus
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Limited time and resources are weak arguments wrt self improvement. You can do whatever you want to do and are willing to work at. That used to be an advantage of growing older – you’ve had plenty of time to figure things out and proceed. We’re talking building habits. I’m not naturally an early riser or a morning person, but I’m usually ( not always mind you) up and out of bed shortly after sunrise. Why? Because there are things I want to accomplish daily and I’d rather have the time to do more without getting frustrated by the clock.… Read more »

Corrector
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@rollo

You meant, I assume, to write: Alek Minassian (k, 2s), the van killer.

You wrote: Alex Minasian, who is a pianist, and killed no one. I hope.

Correct at your convenience.

Feel free to discard this comment after.

fleezer
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fleezer
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“Purchasing pussy is an adaptation.” the original one. whores from the levant had a high price to let the neanderthals fuck them… wheat?? potbelly hill? “If men’s only frame of reference about sex is transactional, why ever bother with a relationship?” every single human relationship is transactional. attention is energy is currency is traded for benefit “Adapt and thrive. Become a Sugar Daddy.” yes. become what you were born to be…. the sovereign pimp “Have a ‘relationship’ with an escort until it gets old and refresh with a new one as needed.” yes. run super max game. twist her mind.… Read more »

foxguy
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A lot of frustration from the comments, I understand the frustration. Below are some good steps to follow, I used these while I was going through my frustrations to certain degrees. Notice how none of them mention women at all, it’s not about them it’s about you. At some point you have to move past it and make the most of the situation. The “system/society” is fucked at this point, that’s the first thing you must accept, stop trying to change it. It’s good to understand the system in order to take the opportunities it presents, stop fighting it, learn… Read more »

The Inimitable NEET
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@Mijas The more intelligent, far-seeing ones anticipated the eventual collapse and migrated to Byzantium decades, even centuries earlier. As a side note, most of the monastic orders in the late Western Roman Empire – early Middle Ages were founded by nobility and sustained by an influx of the highly intelligent and/or local noble families. It offered far more prestige, wealth and privilege than being a petty chieftain quarreling with 20 other minor warlords over scraps of land. In terms of exerting social influence and dictating norms for the rest of the populace, the actual “alphas” of Western Europe worked within… Read more »

j
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j
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‘Well, I become Superman and I get an Average girl…ummm, no thanks”.

To bang above average girls you need 1) go to a high end venue 2) above average looks/style and 3) game.

To bang hot girls you need 1) game 2) cool friend(s) with access to hot girls (i.e. a decent club promoter) and 3) follow the principal of reciprocation.

Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising
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This corner of the internet used to be concerned only about the unfiltered truths and had a strict “No Prescriptions” rule– it was “The Rational Male 1.0” But now it has now devolved into Richard “Pooper’s” brand of success porn bait to reel in AFCs to buy into affiliate programs, 1100 dollar an hour phone calls and Multi Level Marketing style “War Rooms”. Welcome to “The Rational Male 2.0”. In this space now, every married man in a blue pilled cuck waiting to be divorce raped, every incel is a future mass murderer, every MGTOW is a “doll fucker”, every… Read more »

Sharrukin2
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The average woman isn’t interested in the average guy. They are putting off any commitment for as long as possible. They are only willing to cut a deal a decade later when their youth and prospects are in decline and they demand a walking atm machine as compensation. Telling the average man that the solution to his problem is for him to be above average is putting on the suit of Captain Obvious. I doubt that even blue-pillers are unaware of this. Game can help improve the odds but they don’t alter the dreadful equation. It also doesn’t increase the… Read more »

thedeti
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thedeti
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I wish Rollo had quoted Novaseeker’s comments instead of mine, because Nova saw this and articulated it before I did, and because he says it better than I do. But I’ll weigh in anyway. One of the things about the manosphere is that not one of us has it all 100% correct, not one of us has all the answers, and it isn’t possible to concentrate all the “correct” and “right” into one tight space. That’s why a thousand flowers bloomed in the manosphere. MRAs have some things right: The current system sucks and is completely unfair to men and… Read more »

Blaximus
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Sharrukin2

It’s not just about gaining ” her interest “.

Mijas
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@The Inimitable NEET I agree. Being a monk may have given some men prestige and power. It still meant giving women up though. MGTOWs could be making tons of money and getting to positions of power too; they still won’t be competing with other men for women. It’s the act of giving up on the struggle for reproduction that I think connects today’s MGTOW and monasticism during the decline of Rome. Social norms and the economy were breaking down then, and they are breaking down today. I think the ascetic hermit lifestyle is one of the adaptations of men (and… Read more »

thedeti
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@ A MGTOW: That is a great post. That’s what MGTOW was when I got here. You’re an OG MGTOW like Zed, Rob Fedders, and Fidelbogen. Sometimes we need to take our finely tuned observer’s glasses and point them inward. We have seen what women do and are when the limits are removed. They’re slutty, promiscuous, disloyal, dishonest, crass, uncouth, selfish, self-absorbed, bitchy, emotionally out of control, and overall train wrecks. But what men do when reduced to their base common denominator isn’t much better. We men are lazy, externally motivated, demoralized, withdrawn, selfish, self absorbed, sometimes violent, and sometimes… Read more »

Novaseeker
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Novaseeker
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I’m not an expert on the middle ages, but I can imagine that warlords were getting a lot more attention from women than monks even though their high status was short-lived. You’re correct in your lack of expertise. You can’t simply extrapolate backwards in history the SMP realities of a materialistic culture like ours. The medieval world was one where belief in the numinous (which most people today find tediously credulous) was a given. That doesn’t mean people didn’t have lusts, but it does mean that sexuality was viewed differently, and people weren’t FWBing, FNLing and so on left and… Read more »

redlight
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redlight
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Men have adapted but many are distracted by the attempted solutions of the outliers. For shorthand I’ll define a pair as (investment in self, investment in women). Some MGTOWs (?,zero), Japanese “grass eaters” (low, zero) and incels (low, zero) get as expected no pussy. PUAs (low, high) get as expected pussy but everything else stalls (yareally: no career, no hobbies, lots of pussy). However by experience men have found the solution. Across the Red Pill, including here, r/TRP, r/MarriedRedPill, blogs (blackdragon etc.), videos, and in popular books such as No More Mr. Nice Guy and the The Subtle Art of… Read more »

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