I’m working another contract gig for the next few months, and recently I had an interesting encounter with a new girl on my team. She’s 34, Japanese (dual citizenship) maybe an HB 6.5-7 and over the summer she hooked up with a guy here who she had a somewhat monogamous relationship with until he transferred to Australia last August.
This girl is ‘in love’ with this guy who’s not aloof to her, and not fully indifferent, but he sets himself as his first priority and never considered turning down his transfer in order to continue anything with her. The guy is nothing special to look at. No muscle definition, kind of fat-thin if you know what I mean, but pasty white, ginger, not out of shape but not in shape, maybe 5′ 11″.
She cannot shut up about what a ‘real man’ he is. She bought a $2,200 ticket to visit him for a week and a half in January and has made a personalized calendar as a gift for him that has photos all of these events they shared together over the summer, every month with a heartfelt description of some thing she loves about him included.
To her, this guy is Alpha as fuck. On Tinder, this guy would be a left swipe 100% of the time. His attitude is indifferent Alpha, but he’s self-concerned. This girl idolizes him.
Granted there’s a lot more going on here to consider; her being well past the Epiphany Phase, necessitous and urgently wanting to consolidate on a long term monogamy makes this guy into an idealized prospect. Thus he became her Alpha, if not anyone else’s. Granted, it’s mostly situational; she thinks she wants to have kids with him and at 34 that clock is about to expire, but she has to come to him, literally and figuratively.
However, although the guy is definitely a ‘contextual Alpha’, he’s got a genuine Alpha-ish bearing that translates into his being self-aware of his condition and really not giving a damn what anyone else might think. He’s got total Frame control, but it’s not an intentional control, and that natural casualness of indifference only makes her want to please him that much more. There may be a cultural element to this as well, but to hear her talk about other, lesser men, it’s apparent she’s been very much westernized in her sense of entitlement.
Self-Concern Without Self-Awareness
People think I’m crazy to hold up a guy like Corey Worthington as the example of an Alpha Buddah, but this guy has the same unpracticed, self-unaware, mojo as Corey.
Personally, I was at my most Alpha when I didn’t realize I was. That’s not Zen, it’s just doing what came natural for me at a point in my life when I had next to nothing materially, only a marginal amount of social proof, but a strong desire to enjoy women for the sake of just enjoying them in spite of it.
I’ve mentioned before, the most memorable sex I’ve had has been when I was flat broke (mostly). It didn’t matter that I lived in a 2 room studio in North Hollywood or had beer and mac & cheese in the fridge – I got laid and I had women come to me for it.
It didn’t take my doing anything for a woman to get laid or hold her interest. All I did was make myself my mental point of origin. It’s when I started putting women as a goal, making them into more than just a source of enjoyment, that I transferred that mental point of origin to her and I became the necessitous one.
A lot of guys will call that being ‘needy’, and I suppose it is, but it’s a neediness that results from putting a woman (or another person) as your first thought – your mental point of origin.
I’ve used this term in a few posts so I thought it deserved a bit more explanation.
Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame.
If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.
For most of us our understanding of that point of origin develops when we’re children. Kids are necessarily “selfish”, sometimes cruel and greedy because our first survival instinct is to naturally put ourselves as our mental point of origin. Only later, with parenting and learning social skills do we begin to share, cooperate, empathize and sympathize as our mental point of origin shifts to putting the concerns of others before our own.
Young boys are generally very Alpha because of this unlearned self-importance. This is the source of the almost zen-like, mater-of-fact Alpha bearing of Corey Worthington. As I said, he’s not a ‘man’ anyone ought to aspire to, but he is an Alpha without intent or self-awareness.
There is a ‘first thought’ balance we have to maintain in a pro-social respect in order to develop healthy relationships. The problem we run into today is one in which boys are (largely) raised to be the men who provide more than they need in order to establish a future family. That learned, conditioned, mental point of origin is almost always focused outward and onto the people he hopes will reciprocate by placing him as their own point of origin.
Natural feminine solipsism makes this exchange a losing prospect. Women are both raised and affirmed by a vast social mechanism that not just encourages them to put themselves as their mental point of origin, but it shames and ostracizes them for placing it on someone or something other than themselves.
By now I’m sure that much of this comes off as some encouragement towards a retaliatory selfishness or narcissism, but putting oneself as his own point of origin doesn’t have to mean being anti-social or sociopathic. It requires a conscious decision to override an internalized understanding of oneself, but by placing yourself as your mental point of origin you are better positioned to help others and judge who is worth that effort.
It often requires some emotional trauma for men to realign themselves as their own point of origin, and I feel this is a necessary part of unplugging, but the real challenge is in how you deal with that trauma in a Red Pill aware state. If you are to kill the Beta in you, the first step is placing yourself as your mental point of origin.
So my weekend discussion questions are this: Are you your mental point of origin?
Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss?
When men fall into relationships with authoritarian, feminine-primary women, their first thought about any particulars of their actions is how his woman will respond to it, not his own involvement or his motivations for it. Are you a peacekeeper?
Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?
Are you concerned that doing so may lead to your own form of solipsism, or do you think ‘enlightened self-interests’ serves your best interests and those with whom you want to help or become intimate with?
I really enjoyed this article. This year I made alot of changes to improve myself mentally, physically and spiritually. Holding myself as the main point of origin helped me focus on how I wanted to show up in the world based on what I wished to be not how other people thought I should be. That decision caused me to work out more, watch my eating habits, improve my work skills, meditate daily, and read a form of self improvement daily.I recently showed up to a family get together that had alot of people i haven’t seen in months. They… Read more »
I’m older now and I wish I’d red pilled 20 years ago. When I look back on my life I realize that the times I was most attractive to women was when I was deep in a mission. I put myself first and just went for it. Now on the other side of 50 it’s hard to move back to that energy. Maybe it’s lower testosterone. Maybe it’s because I’ve been career successful and I can coast now without ambition. I’ve gone bluepill in my current relationship and I’m not happy but damn.. to start over.. alpha-up and start playing… Read more »
I too am in my 50s (late). Came to the red pill a couple of years ago due to sites like Rollo’s. His site is a great public service for men. Before that, for my entire adult life, I was a white-knight completely submerged in the FI. Now I try to unapologetically put myself first, even with a wife and a mistress. I come first (figuratively speaking), my son comes second, and everyone else comes third. I’m not saying it’s easy: old habits die hard. But my wife treats me with more deference than she ever did, never questions any… Read more »
I really loved this article because it was so personal, thanks Rollo. As for how I answer the questions? Lol, I knew becoming a selfish prick was the right way to go! @ Marcus Arrow – 52 myself and here’s what I’ve been doing. First, begin a serious program of weight lifting. Putting on muscle and gaining strength will help your energy and I’m told it effects testosterone levels. The shift has been dramatic for me. Next, try to take on something fun, not hard. I get it, I’ve been at the grind my whole life too and while I… Read more »
I have recently been considering the idea of “alpha” in the context of women’s progression through the various life stages outlined by Rollo. A couple weeks back, Rollo did a post on a guy who felt he hadn’t changed, but was getting a lot more attention from girls who weren’t interested in him before. Yes, from his own descriptions, he sounded pretty beta. However, I don’t think it’s necessarily as simple as saying “beta bux” kicked in for these women. I think this guy could have been becoming somewhat more “alpha” in the eyes of these women, because as they… Read more »
@biff, I don’t think you’re a heretic at all. In fact my upcoming book basically centers around how women’s determination of what is “Alpha” and the priorities they place on the qualities that determine their perception of it shifts as they move through various phases of their maturity. That’s why I mentioned the Japanese girl in the beginning here. Her conscious perception of what made her LDR boyfriend “Alpha” aligns with what her necessity dictates at her stage of life. Her hindbrain would motivate her to bang an available hot guy here in the U.S. if the opportunity presented itself,… Read more »
She’s 34 and a 6.5-7? Not exactly high in the SMP. Also, she’s Japanese, and they are generally much less demanding than Western women. I don’t think there’s necessarily any remarkable mojo going on here.
@Biff, I also have had experience with women in their teens or early twenties seeming to be affected by the status of the man. One 21 year old girl here had a crush on me, even though there were two other westeners living in my same building were much more young and handsome. Apparently me being their boss and the boss of the shophouse here had a big effect. The stages of mating broad outline works well, but I don’t see it applying always and cross culturally. A lot of women want to marry and have kids as teenagers or… Read more »
That 21 year old was the live in maid, by the way. I never touched her as I didn’t find her attractive enough. But it was a lesson to me how local status can have an affect on attraction. By the way it’s been studied that an increase in testosterone will correlate with an increase in selfishness. Giving the woman commands regularly is a great way to show her of your self interest – and this can get her to not only view you as her leader, but also to start to view attending to you has rituals of devotion.… Read more »
Thanks, Rollo. That explanation makes sense, though if the sexual desire for a “perceived alpha” is strong and real, I’m not sure how it differs in practice from “hindbrain alpha”. I will look forward to reading more about your take on evolving “alpha”.
xsplat, I’ve had similar experiences living abroad (except no maids so young). I think living outside of the first world provides very interesting life perspectives, because the male-female relationship dynamic is very different, and frankly more natural.
@ Biff, I was watching a documentary last night that included stories of rich playboys in the 1800s. They would date 14 year olds, and this was considered the norm. Their wealth apparently had a huge influence on who they could date, back in those days. There are many stories of famous or wealthy men older men getting better access to youth and beauty than the younger hot guys, throughout history. So I don’t know how data like that fits into the schedules of mating blueprint. I do agree generally with that blueprint, but I don’t think we need to… Read more »
Comes down to women’s own perceived SMV. If they are looking for a lasting relationship companion without the stress of trying to keep and hold a natural alpha then they will “love” a “lesser” man. Problem is when it comes to sex it is still the natural who she is dreaming about. It does not work this way with men. Men are just happy when they have a compliant or even semi-compliant woman most of the time. I remember dating a girl at one of my past jobs that was completely goo goo gaga over me. She would always tell… Read more »
And along the same line, I think that our mental maps can be too rigid regarding the rules of what to expect from women. If it’s true that at least some women are turned on in a hindbrain way by relative status and power, it can also be true that the power to provision is not necessarily only in the category of “beta bucks”. Money can be a tool of power used to promote genuine desire. That’s not to dispute the general overal concept of alpha-bucks/beta-bucks. But it is to refine the idea to include alternate uses of wealth and… Read more »
@Bango Tango, I wonder how much behavior alone would affect the woman’s attitude towards you.
There are many (myself included) who claim that behavior alone can get a man the same treatment that is usually reserved for the tall handsome hard-bodies – at least with some women.
There are many (myself included) who claim that behavior alone can get a man the same treatment that is usually reserved for the tall handsome hard-bodies – at least with some women. @xsplat. Hard to say. It might be the case that you can train a woman but I think only to a certain degree. Ultimately men have to understand that a woman has gauged your status in the male hierarchy almost immediately after viewing you for the first time. This perception can definitely be changed with signaling but where it puts you in hierarchy is still open to question.… Read more »
We dance around it, but culture is everything here. If a Westerner is fucking women in South East Asia, the dynamic is very different than if he were operating at home. Women in poor countries are rarely looking for alpha sex, they are hoping for a ticket out their economic condition. They are happy if the man doesn’t abuse them, but their expectations are very low. It’s like hunting in an abattoir. Doesn’t count.
@Bango, I agree, women prioritize their values differently. Some girls are all about the hawtness, and there is nothing more to say about it. And I agree that the very subtle alpha/beta or whatever cues we give can not all be known to us. I think we can learn charisma over time, and that it’s an endless process. However as we do we grow older and uglier. For any particular girl we might not have the power to push her buttons, but I think that charisma and actions, as well as our social positioning and other aspects of our life… Read more »
@BBB, in no place on earth can you negotiate genuine desire.
In no place on earth do actions not affect outcome.
Hey, xsplat, can you clarify something? In your blog post “Use the force. Of paternal love” you write the following:
“I’ve found this [Daddy] a very useful persona, both for arousing passion in and having control over women, as well as raising my own quality of life. Quality of life is raised by the enjoyment of intimacy and romance, as well as the resulting sex-slave behaviour from daughters.”
Are you saying you have had sex with your daughters?
Brody, I suggest you read more of the daddy/daughter related posts to find the answer to your question.
It is a yes then. That’s sick, man.
On this topic of how women’s attraction changes across their lifetimes I don’t think any analysis is complete without looking at the phenomena of teen-idols. As a man who has sisters and daughters its clear that there is something biological going on with pubescent girls in a way that is radically different from boys. Boys may fantasize about a poster girl, but they never fall over themselves for heartthrobs like Bieber, or Lief Garret, and David Cassidy (in the old days). I’m amazed that many of these teen heartthrobs are more on the fair/effeminate side than masculine. They look like… Read more »
xsplat – “And along the same line, I think that our mental maps can be too rigid regarding the rules of what to expect from women.”
It’s my understanding you can only expect them to trade up, or always be looking to, when the opportunity and desire coincide. Otherwise I have zero expectations.
Bango Tango @11:29 I’ve had a similar experience. Dated a bubbly 25-year-old for a while, she was into it, never said no to me, bragged about me on her facebook constantly. A few months in, she was all about feeding me like she was trying out for the Wife Olympics. But her mask started slipping once I found nudes of her college “buddies” on her computer. Her biggest concern wasn’t that I found out. It was that I didn’t tell *them* she had those pictures. Soon after, there were a few histrionic displays and lots of demanding behavior and I… Read more »
Strong points there! I have recently quit my boring as death programming job (which I took up only for money and nothing else really and engineering being a huge thing here in India) to do something more fun and social like work in the media and marketing industry and I firmly beleieve it’s because of red pill truths which made me re-consider what i really want to do. I am trying to get to the fact that most men take up jobs only to earn money—but for what? That’s when it struck me, it’s mostly to play the future provider… Read more »
Great post. Ok, my insights….to your questions: Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss? Sometimes. I need to stop myself…cold. If I can’t stop thinking about it then I wait. If it feels uncomfortable, sometimes I’ll do it anyway just because going against what I hold to be “normal” might bring a surprise. When men fall into relationships with authoritarian, feminine-primary women, their first thought about any particulars of their actions is how his woman will respond to it, not his own involvement or his motivations for it. Are you… Read more »
@badpainter “It’s my understanding you can only expect them to trade up, or always be looking to, when the opportunity and desire coincide. Otherwise I have zero expectations.” I understand that we all have some innate advantages and disadvantages in the sexual marketplace. Some of us are ugly and balding (me). Some of us are not too bright, or have a touch of the ass-burgers, and so will never come across as socially on the ball. Some people grew up with not much testosterone during fetal development, and so lack testosteronized brains, and will never be able to think like… Read more »
This was a lot more difficult for me that a normal unplugging due to the fact that I had a BPD mother and had an incredible drive and attraction to emotionally damaged and controlling women, it is “repetition compulsion” fact. I have been working with a therapist for two years and its surprising the amount of work dissociation takes to put all things right. I was the peacekeeper, walking on eggshells around my mother and several girlfriends; it was always me making up for some perceived infraction of what they deemed to be appropiate behaviour. I’m glad I now understand… Read more »
Shortly after I’d smirk at the idea that I became the prize once I was no longer available. But really, she was just looking for a return on her ego investment. Whether I was even there or not didn’t matter. Glad I got out of it. @RP. Yep you got it. She was mad after because she viewed you as below her SMV and combined with her playing the submissive role should have been all that was needed to keep you there regardless of blatant admissions of how wonderful past flings with other males were. Even wonderful enough for a… Read more »
The desire is always genuine until she recites her repertoire to giggling girlfriends after she stripped-mined your bank account.
But actions do indeed affect outcome. I would never say otherwise – and didn’t.
To paraphrase, you are maintaining frame. Good for you. Having done so you will serve yourself and please any woman you may or may not ultimately link up with. Perhaps, while maintaining your frame, you’ll find compatible women who have equally strong, but complementary, frames of their own.
But who cares what pubescent girls think?
“Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?”
Trick question. If you’re actually asking yourself this, you’re not putting yourself first.
The correct answer is:”It’ll probably turn her off, but that’s irrelevant: it needs to be done.”
@jimmythesaint – I have complex, chronic PTSD, with the initial onset being at the age of 8 due to being the victim of severe physical and emotional abuse. It brought me to my knees after a life threatening rock climbing fall 10 years ago. That trauma launched me into an escalating series of anxiety conditions including multi-year insomnia – if you’ve never had actual insomnia for a long time it’s hard to understand how debilitating it is. It came to head as I began to pass out and was hospitalized as when I went to the ER after having a… Read more »
1. Are you your mental point of origin? 1. A. I’m sure women, maybe especially my wife, would disagree, but I would say no. 2. Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss? 2. A. Yes (wife). Even planning Dread is specifically considering how it will affect her. 3. Are you a peacekeeper? 3. A. Yes. And it was my reading of The Peacekeepers post that led to me … experimenting. 4. Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you… Read more »
Mansa Sundiata says “All the women in my family where convinced that I had found a girlfriend and was keeping her a secret.”
I believe this is the distilled essence of Game right here.
Glenn says “the only way I can keep any one woman from renting space in my head is by spinning plates”
I agree. I fail to see how monogamy and Game are compatible. The only real question is the extent of a man’s physical involvement with other plates.
@BangoTango re: “The fact that she felt comfortable saying that to me was even more proof, like she thought it wouldn’t bother me!”
Been there, done that, too often. I call that sort of thing me being treated as one of the girls.
@xsplat re: “behavior alone”
I’m in total agreement, provided the women’s first exposure to you involves alpha from the get-go.
@Darryl Long re: “its clear that there is something biological [mental] going on with pubescent girls in a way that is radically different from boys”
Yes, 99.9% of girls go instantly insane at puberty. It’s not that they become boy crazy, they become plain crazy in a particular way. They instantly change from knowing what they want and being fun and game to not knowing what they want and being moody and weird. Unfortuantely that aspect never goes aay.
1. Are you your mental point of origin? Yes. No one else will look after your self interests you must do so yourself 2. Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss? Me. My 1st inclination is to consider how something will effect me. No one else will look after your self interests you must do so yourself. Family matters, but a job is only a job and women are replaceable 3. Are you a peacekeeper? LOL 4. Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn… Read more »
@ Glenn You really have had it rough. And anyone who has been through similar can learn from your experience . “I’ll put some commentary up here on the actual techniques I used – but I’m not sure it’s relevant to most here.” An arrow pointing in the general direction would be great. This, this all of this “Your point of “mental origin” as Rollo puts it here is never you because you develop a high state of vigilance when others are around so you can protect yourself, particularly when around your abuser. “ While the therapist never did stick… Read more »
“I believe the same people who were the most ‘alpha’ in high school, i.e., the jocks, wanna be rockstars, thugs, etc. become less ‘alpha’ contextually as they grow older”
I’m doing my own shit at high school when the head cheerleader sits next to me, says “you’re the guy who writes poetry” and wants to get to know me. Enlightened self-interests do serve your best interests, even in high school!
@Jimmythesaint – I can relate to the amount of space a maniac for a parent takes up in one’s life. And I’ve often said that the emotional aspects of my Dad’s abuse were in some ways the worst. Never knowing when he was going to snap and throw a cup of hot coffee at my head – sigh… Resources: Here’s a bullet list. Doing some googling on these topics will send you in the right direction. 1. Developing the skill of “resilience”. Think of this philosophically as developing a stoical philosophy towards life. http://www.annistonstar.com/news/article_7274b86a-5cd6-11e4-9dbb-8bf9577c4e92.html 2. Developing the ability to compartmentalize… Read more »
I think the Mano-sphere understanding of “hypergamy” and “alpha” and “beta” are still fuzzy and vague. At its best is Roissy’s view that alpha = socio-sexual dominance and savvy. In my view, “alpha” is a stand in term for male psycho-sexual dominance with women. Alpha is not six pack abs or hard bodies as many here seem to think. Its also not being the CEO of a company. Those things can coincide with alpha but they are not alpha in itself. Alpha is male psychological strength in relation to women. Alpha always reveals itself as a superior psychological frame. Who… Read more »
” . . .local status can have an affect on attraction.”
A good deal of the reason that the FI has so relentlessly pursued rules and laws against social superiours having sex with those under (as it were) them, isn’t because women don’t want to have sex with them, but because they do.
Great post Rollo… again, as usual. This is one of my last challenges gamewise. I beleive this is the core of what it all comes down to, and gets to the center of what defines alpha/beta and success with women and in life. So many hones and open answers I think I should share mine as well I was raised in an extremely abusive environmnet as well. Father wa a violent alchocolic and my mother was very ill, and become ill after my birth- a fact that was always used to get me under control and to drive guilt deep… Read more »
@kfg re: laws.
I’ve come to the conclusion that sexual and relationship laws (and customs) are in place to try to regulate women’s sexuality by restricting their choices in men. Feminism comes to the same conclusion from the opposite side.
tip o the hat to you Hobbes
xsplat – “So indeed, we may not all have the choice to use red pill truths in order to be in that top 10% and get the alpha treatment from attractive women. But it none the less seems to me as a waste of potential for people to use red pill ideas just to classify themselves as beta losers incapable of maintaining attraction for long enough to bother.” I suspect I misunderstood your usage of the word expectations. I only expect women to be what they are. To expect more seems a fool’s errand. From the previous posts comments RE:… Read more »
@ Hobbes I get your point about caretaking. I am a natural alpha and hold frame in an organic way at this point (although it was not like that before). However, I was raised in a very warm home where everyone was very warm to each other. I am very caring toward my partner and when she goes through issues, I am very loyal but purely within my frame. I make it very clear that all of my help and support are conditional upon appreciation and reciprocal behavior. It is possible to be caring and strong and everything still comes… Read more »
@Bango Tango and @ReticentPill: There’s a lot of truth in both of you guy’s comments, so I won’t bother to quote them. You guys are both getting at the truth which I’ve said before. In that, Alpha is instinctive and women recognize it the moment they see it. It is, for the most part, visual. I’ve experienced this not only through the use of tinder but from my social circle pulls as well. I would have (and still do from time to time) guys telling me that the only reason I pull so well was because of my good looks.… Read more »
“If it were only a mental state, then it would have the potential for everyman to achieve and if everyman where to achieve it, then eventually, it would be rendered useless and women would start to use other features in a man to distinguish him as a true alpha”
this is terrible logic, especially since this site is about rational. To see this use substitution
Rollo’s questions point to an interesting idea, that of time orientation. To be your own metal point of origin suggests an attitude of no time but the present. I suspect that most of those who’s answers defer to the immediate interests of others are doing so because they believe that by doing so they are investing in a future payoff, or the belief that stability can be created and preserved. At least that was the basis of much of my thinking when I behaved that way. The error in such thinking should be obvious. Simply, when it comes to dealing… Read more »
From anarcho’s linked article
“The researchers found that females at their time of peak fertility actively sought to mate with the males that bullied them.”
“Feldblum says he is interested to find out whether some males might find success in paternity in kinder, gentler ways such as spending more time grooming females.”
Hobbes: Godspeed mate… Very heavy, but very enlightening. Gave me some great perspectives on my own childhood and “caretaking” behaviors, although the dial wasn’t turned up as high on the dysfunction as yours. Same general premise though… Divorced parents, fistfights with dad, bailing mom out of her fucked up decisions. It scars and absolutely manifests itself in your long term thinking/outlook. This was particularly relevant: “For my entire life I had a repeating pattern I still struggle to break. They meet me and are attracted, and looking at it they assume I am alpha or at least very desirable, then… Read more »
“From anarcho’s linked article:
“The researchers found that females at their time of peak fertility actively sought to mate with the males that bullied them.”’
And right in the next sentence:
“The researchers note that the evolutionary lineage for humans and chimps split some seven million years ago and that the mating systems for the two species are different.”
“To be your own metal point of origin suggests an attitude of no time but the present.” I’m in a detraining and cutting cycle right now, in preperation for a winter resistence training cycle, in order that in the spring I can retake a speed record I lost a month ago. When I’m pulling a lift or taking an FTP test, I am certainly focused entirely in the now, but the now has a future payoff in mind. The payoff, however, is largely abstract and entirely my own. There is no practical value, not even to myself, let alone a… Read more »
This is primarily why I disagree with Rollo on his maxim: “Alpha is a state of mind and not a demographic.” I believe Alpha is a demographic and it is only reserved for a few selected men. Bear in mind this ‘maxim’ (if you want to call it that) was in response to the tendency of men (and women) to self-define Alpha to better fit their own image, or an idealization of a pro-social man. Alpha = “Leader of Men®”, leader of industry, positive role model, etc. i.e. a demographic. My point was that a drug dealer, convicted gang leader… Read more »
” . . . his child-like demeanor . . .”
Is because his point of origin only exists in the now.
Genghis Kahn’s point of origin projected generations into the future.
Cory is antisocial. Genghis forged a society.
Cory got into legal trouble. Genghis became the law, the Great Kahn.
It isn’t that alphas only exist in a short time span perception. It’s that the perception of time span determines whether an alpha becomes jailed, or the jailor.
Call me crazy, but I’m pretty sure Genghis was on a lot of people’s ‘douchebag’ list during his time.
I get what you’re saying, but anti-social is really defined by which social order a person is ‘anti’ to begin with.
We are trained from birth to put everyone wellbeing ahead of our own, thinking that it’s the “right” thing to do, that people will respect and admire us for it. But in the end people just laugh at you for being such a fool, I was like that until high school when I realized that the more you do for people the more they will expect from you(especially women).
Alawys put yourself first, because no one else will.
That’s like calling Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar anti-social. Given how Caesar died he certainly was on a list
Females are biologically programmed to gravitate toward power (survival/status of young, and such). Game teaches men to ape that perception of power. Works in the short term, but won’t stand the test of time (divorce rape). Far better to develop the real thing. Upon achieving that, yes, game is a very sound (and fundamental) management technique. Failing that, game is a salve, for a time, only… until you’re on to your next spinning wheel. Come on, men. You know IN YOUR BONES what it means to be a man. Stop shopping here and elsewhere for a shortcut that will only… Read more »
“the whole of the manosphere is focused upon females”
and the MGTOW is what according to you?
Your comment reminds of the 2004 Election when John Kerry kept talking is “plan” a better plan, a smarter plan, etc. Yet never once were any details provided. So I ask you how do we become men? Details please. You did provide a nice pep talk.
So far Redpill, and Game are the only actionable, working advice we have albeit imperfect.
too point zero, when Rollo says
“It didn’t take my doing anything for a woman to get laid or hold her interest. All I did was make myself my mental point of origin. It’s when I started putting women as a goal, making them into more than just a source of enjoyment, that I transferred that mental point of origin to her and I became the necessitous one”
he is not saying make females your focus, read the post again
Xsplat says “testosteronized brains”
I work in health and medicine. That’s a classic right there.
“I’m pretty sure Genghis was on a lot of people’s ‘douchebag’ list during his time.” In his time George the Washington was on the ‘douchebag’ list of George the Third, and vice versa. One was a King, One rejected a crown. Both were naturals who had the fortune to be born into positions that fostered that. Both could be deadly. Neither (in times of sanity), was anti-social. They were foundations upon which societies stood. ” . . . anti-social is really defined by which social order a person is ‘anti’ to begin with.” Anybody who isn’t on somebody’s ‘douchebag’ list… Read more »
@New Yorker One thing I have learned is there is a healthy form of caring and an unhealthy form of caretaking. It sounds, like with your background, you got to see what healthy caring is all about,and even then, given the feral nature of women today, you still had problems!! smh I’ve gotten much better at it and seeing when caregiving is appropriate and healthy. Come to think of it, much of the difference, comes down to exactly what this post is about. To care with yourself as the center of your frame, is healthy. To be dependent and reliant… Read more »
@Badpainter “So I ask you how do we become men? Details please.” Appreciate the feedback. How to become men? Well, that’s the question, isn’t it? Hence, 2.0. I have a shit ton of my own thoughts on it, and probably will start in the future some kind of community for its exploration. Wasn’t my intention today, but merely to get the community thinking about a 2.0 version of our current incarnation. To rise to the occasion, I’ll provide one example of something that could grow to something much more meaningful, in time to come (I’m happy to provide more, should… Read more »
“As healthy red blooded males, we take care of OURS. ”
From a woman’s self defense website:
“Not me. Not mine. Not today.”
I think it’s a fine maxim for a man.
so you say ” center yourselves in your own selves” and Rollo says “your mental point of origin” – notice anything there?
@manosphere Saying you are fighting the FI is like saying you are going to defeat biology, which is, ultimately, what the FI is all about. You can pursue your own agenda and goals which, in the end, immunize you from the FI, but as you even admit (won’t trust them in a million years) the FI is still there. Its seems like the one who needs to serve women is you. You are playing rescuer, you will turn those whores into Madonnas, yet all along saying that those Madonnas will still be whores, deep inside. The best way to “fight”… Read more »
@10×10 . Great comment. There was a time when Roissy’s voice was predominant in the manosphere, and he over-emphasized game. I disagreed and kept putting forth the same conception that you outlined above; the confluence of overlapping traits making up a total value. It took a long time but that conception is now more dominant. But there was still resistance in other places to including other values into what raises overall value. Values such as money. Money to women is the same as tits to men. Men will be attracted to women with small tits, and some value tits less… Read more »
Hobbes: “You can pursue your own agenda and goals which, in the end, immunize you from the FI . . .”
You must not live in a mandatory helmet state.
@xsplat that was a well-written comment with a lot that I agree with, in particular “how women are not homogeneous in how they rate certain values in men” and “the alpha fucks beta bucks conception has the contrast turned way up and uses of money that arouse attraction are ignored or downplayed” (I was talking to a friend who was waxing his expensive sports car, when a woman stopped to ask for directions, she didn’t need directions to a provider) I still think you need to articulate your version of mate guard. For example in your comment in a previous… Read more »
@kfg- Ha! noted. I my have stated that a bit more emphatically than I meant. But I think the gist gets across.
Being aware of RP and FI allows a man to plan his defenses and avoid the worst of it, if he is diligent.
I think Manosphere3.0 might mean “be your own man.” That would be a good idea.
@snowy re testosteronized brains: http://www.shb-info.org/sexbrain.html
@Hobbes Saying you are fighting the FI is like saying you are going to defeat biology, which is, ultimately, what the FI is all about. *Fightng nothing, that’s the point. When one is living one’s life focused on a laser mission, there is no fight. You can pursue your own agenda and goals which, in the end, immunize you from the FI, but as you even admit (won’t trust them in a million years) the FI is still there. *That’s like immunizing oneself against microbes. There is NO immunization from all of this… only building up one’s immunity. Its seems… Read more »
Hobbes: “But I think the gist gets across.”
Indeed. I simply can’t resist a straight line. Especially if it’s actually illustrative of a point.
Redlight: “I was talking to a friend who was waxing his expensive sports car, when a woman stopped . . .”
I’ve owned an Alpha Romeo and a Maserati. Finding a way to keep the passenger seat warm was never really an issue. Sometimes I drove the Escort just to be left the hell alone.
@manosphere- at this point you are saying nothing that hasnt then been said by Rollo in this post. you say: “Fightng nothing, that’s the point. When one is living one’s life focused on a laser mission, there is no fight” then say: “However, I’m far less interested in teaching young men how to fight the current war that we are waging” Do you even check yourself for contradictions? “I accept that for what it is, princess” And with this comment you reveal yourself for what you are. Just couldn’t resist the bitchy insult, Look, your selling crap. From a atop… Read more »
@Rollo and “alpha is not a demographic” and “Bear in mind this ‘maxim’ (if you want to call it that) was in response to the tendency of men (and women) to self-define Alpha to better fit their own image, or an idealization of a pro-social man.” You may want to examine if you are lately sliding into the same tendency and defining the demographic according to your personal experiences. For instance you never felt the need to strongly escalate, and so now seem to define alpha as not needing to strongly escalate. There are ugly men who get the alpha… Read more »
@Hobbes Whoa, Hobbes, we’re on different wavelengths, and that’s cool. Let me break it down for you by wavelength: Do you even check yourself for contradictions? +++ Whoa, where are Rollo and I disagreeing? Methinks you’re seeing things that don’t exist. Look, your selling crap. +++Please send me the cash, because I have received zero remuneration from speaking my piece on Rollo’s blog. Rollo, you holding out on me, dude? From a atop a pony only you think its a high horse. +++only concerned about the “middle” horse that the majority of manosphere men are reading, but thanks for your… Read more »
Yes, I know you count looks. I was suggesting that lately you’ve been over-counting them, and dis-counting aggressive dominance. Because you assume that if initial physical based attraction is not high at the beginning, then a man is not alpha, and you talk about dominant escalation as a beta move.
And of course your idea seems to be that money is only attractive to women in later stages of mating, and only from a beta bucks type of attraction, not sexual attraction.
Which does not include the data of sports cars turning young women on.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear: Looks. Assets. Game. Have two. Three is best, but if you only have one, Game is the most essential. I have no doubt that Charles Bukowski Game does work for guys like Charles Bukowski, but there’s a fine line between selling that to a girl and selling it to yourself. Because you assume that if initial physical based attraction is not high at the beginning, then a man is not alpha, and you talk about dominant escalation as a beta move. I assume no such thing. http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/01/command-presence/ What’s bothering you is the conflict between an organic… Read more »
“While confidence and behaviors have their place, they cannot compete with genuine good looks”. @Tinder Master. And confidence and behavior comes as a result of good looks which comes first. This is so obvious that it seems weird to actually have to say it. When young boys are growing up they develop a sense of their smv by the response they get from girls and this response is completely based on the boy’s looks at that age because they have no real “status” other then that. Gradually the good looking boys learn they are attractive to women which grows their… Read more »
“I have no doubt that Charles Bukowski Game does work for guys like Charles Bukowski . . .” I could probably pull it off, but I just can’t drink that much. And I could probably be heavyweight champion of the world, if I were a heavyweight, and could, ya know, box. I’m afraid I’m not very good for your business. I’m a coffee sort of guy. I drink to get things done, not to forget. “Women don’t get turned on by expensive sports cars, they get turned on by what they represent and the emotional association they get from the… Read more »
Drop the heavy stuff Rollo
I think in this looks topic, we lean way too much on the nature and forget the massive impact on nurture. I generally think it’s a problem with alot of RP. We really forget that nurture, while not over riding nature, can change its expression. In human beings As Pavlov showed, a limbic response and reflex can be trained and elicited through nurture. The brain literally rewires itself to account for experience and nurture. To the dog, it does not just hear a bell and feel itself salivate, it probably FEELS hungry. In other words you can show different women… Read more »
“Alpha dominance, and confident escalation is definitely a component to that arousal, but the necessity to oversell it to a less than compliant woman is time better spent with a new prospect, don’t you think?” No, and I think you are not really grasping my point. A less than compliant woman becomes a more compliant woman through the very act of seduction. You are implying that the seduction is done before she gets on the bed. If she isn’t fully complying by that point, then there is not enough “real” arousal. I’m explaining to you that your worldview is so… Read more »
“What’s bothering you is the conflict between an organic genuine desire based on a woman’s arousal and having to negotiate for a mitigated desire based on her necessities. Is it better to be desired because she hot for you, or because she’s fearful of you?” No, you are not listening. That is what you are forced to think if you rigidly maintain your mental map. But your mental map is wrong. I am not correcting your worldview as an ego protection. That argument is like government official claiming that any anti-war sentiment is anti-patriot. I am correcting your view of… Read more »
Do you think your experiences with women in Southeast Asia have had an influence on your perspective of Game?
Let’s be honest, the context you consider escalation and dominance has to be colored by the necessity of the women you bed.
I’m not saying your wrong in your assessment, just that your particular conditions there may lead you to think they’re reflective of a larger picture.
“Women don’t get turned on by expensive sports cars, they get turned on by what they represent and the emotional association they get from the thrill of riding and being seen in one. Conspicuous consumption is a tingle inducement for most women.”
My point is that wealth can be used in ways that create genuine hind-brain non-negatiated desire in women who are not in later stages of mating.
My point is that the alpha-fucks/beta bucks dichotomy can be misused to give a false view of the value of money to men who want to arouse young women.
I could give example after example of how my escalation style, which includes pushing past boundaries, in alternation with backing off and letting the woman come to me, has led to forming extremely strong desire and bonding. I have given the examples. Here and on my blog. At this time in my life I have 5 women in my life. One of them has been very close to me for over 7 years. On the first date she was screaming at the top of her lungs while I was pulling her pants off. There was nothing negotiated about her long… Read more »
Xsplat, I’ve always valued your input here, and I still do, but how would you respond to a commenter like Sirrtyrion, who’s claim is Game is by and large mental masturbation and looks are the first and only foundation for arousal and sexual selection?
Search his name in the blog search for his blog and commentary.
“Do you think your experiences with women in Southeast Asia have had an influence on your perspective of Game? Let’s be honest, the context you consider escalation and dominance has to be colored by the necessity of the women you bed. I’m not saying your wrong in your assessment, just that your particular conditions there may lead you to think they’re reflective of a larger picture.” I’m not operating in a vacuum here. Do you think all the locals have no money? Do you think I’m the only westerner here? In any location there is going to be intense competition… Read more »
I’ve read many of his posts, and he makes a lot of strong points. It’s unbalanced though. It’s known that a man’s looks can grow on a woman, through familiarity. So an ugly guy can grow on a woman, like a fungus. The initial physical attraction makes a huge difference. I don’t do well at nightclubs, and would never even both with tinder. I struggle to get even a single online date. But in person to person there are non-physical traits that can invoke genuine non negotiated pussy wetening orgasm producing desire. A properly fucked girl will come back to… Read more »
Manosphere 2.0 seems to have quickly degraded to spam, not that there was much substance to accommodate the verbosity in the first place. Always entertaining to see a simple “man up” turned into a hundred words or more, good thing talk is cheap.
And Rollo, be cautious about setting up unfalsifiable world views. There are people who believe that everything is purely a mental construct, and therefore if you believe hard enough, you can literally fly. For them the fact that nobody is seen to be flying is therefore proof that nobody believes hard enough. You’re setting up these systems in which you proclaim what is a beta behavior. Anybody who shows evidence otherwise is therefore a beta fighting against being known for his true beta nature. It looks like you are lately slipping into the belief that Alphas are the alpha foremost… Read more »