Beta Tells

couple-talking-3

 

TRP poster, needathrowawayplease from the Red Pill subreddit has a timely question / observation:

Knowing your SO’s menstrual cycle can be extremely powerful. [Indeed]

During the fertile stage of her cycle, thousands of years of evolution mean her body is screaming at her to get knocked up by an alpha male. A simple test to determine is she sees you as her alpha fucks is to not initiate during the fertile period of her cycle and observe her behavior: does she come to you to get fucked? Does her body language or physical behavior change when she’s fertile. Maybe she touches you more often or more intimately or plays the role of the seductress: things like coming to bed wearing lingerie where she usually wouldn’t? Even if she’s relatively low-sex drive and doesn’t initiate, does she at least respond more passionately to your sexual advances or orgasm more easily or intensely when she’s fertile?

You obviously can’t draw conclusions from a single cycle but you should eventually see a pattern – and the more she values you sexually during her fertile period the better. If she isn’t doing anything differently or reacting to you differently when she’s fertile, something’s up.

This test can have false negatives but not false positives. There’s no false positive case where she suddenly starts riding you while you’re watching the Packers game but she doesn’t see you as her alpha. But it can have false negatives where she doesn’t initiate but still sees you as her alpha. If she isn’t initiating when she’s fertile (and you aren’t initiating in order to test her reaction), it could be due to stress, lack of time, being too used to you doing the initiation, etc. But at the very least she should be demonstrating increased passion and sexual ecstasy during her fertile period.

At a high-level:

The best case: She initiates during her fertile period if you don’t. She gets cravings for your D.

The OK case: She responds more passionately and orgasms more easily during her fertile period.

The uh-oh, something might be wrong case: No observable change during her fertile period.

The beta case: Dead bedroom, what the fuck are you even doing (sorry if you got married and you can’t get out).

Of course if she’s an extremely sexual being and all of the above describes your sex life 24/7, then none of this should even concern you.

Disclaimer: Once again, this test is a tool that works best for women with higher sex drives (who really wanna get fucked when they’re fertile). If your 37 year old wife of 15 years fucks you when you want and isn’t cheating, you’re fine. I don’t think test applies to all women (LOL, broke /trp/ rules oops) but it’s useful nonetheless.

Lets presume for a moment that neither a controlled experiment nor an uncontrolled, but documented, correlatively scientific, sociological field study has ever been performed to test the principle of feminine Hypergamy. For a moment, as a man, imagine yourself living in a period of time prior to any formalized school of psychology; pre-turn of the 20th century. There is no Pavlov, there is no Skinner, there is no Freud.

Using only personal observations, observations of learned behaviors related by your father and brothers, male friends and the intergender experiences of a very socially isolated (by today’s standards) group of  people who make up your peers, and a restrictively limited access to any classic philosophical literature beyond the Judeo-Christian Bible – what would you presume would be the nature inimical to women and the feminine?

Would your observations, intuition and the education proffered by your father, brothers and other influential male friends and relations lead to an insight to know what Hypergamy is, how it motivates women and how to control for, or capitalize on it?

Not only do I believe it would, but I would argue that, up until the sexual revolution and the past 60 or so years, men have had an innate and learned understanding of Hypergamy, how it functions, and how to control for it.

To be sure, it didn’t have the formal name of ‘Hypergamy’ – in fact that term was until recently, strictly defined and reserved for “women with the tendency to marry above their socioeconomic level” in polite, pop-psychology circles – but men knew Hypergamy before the manopshere (re)exposed its true definition.

Waging Hypergamy

Resistance to the uncomfortable truths innate to the female experience is to be expected from women – until the advent of Open Hypergamy, the Feminine Imperative needed the sisterhood to be united and its secrets jealously guarded to the point of cognitive dissonance.

My guess is that most of my female critics would still agree with the basic parameters of Hypergamy, but what I doubt they’re aware of is that in denying the inherent biological nature of female Hypergamy women must also reject the sociological, psychological and (observably) behavioral aspects of Hypergamy inherent (and largely subconscious) in women.

Commenter Mookie:

“As women approach the Epiphany Phase (later the Wall) and realize the decay of their SMV (in comparison to younger women), they become progressively more incentivized towards attraction to the qualities a man possesses that will best satisfy the long-term security of the Beta Bucks side of her Hypergamy demands.”

Did your woman say, “you’re (so much) different than the guys I used to date.” Or, “I finally got smart and found a good guy.” If so, this is clear evidence that you are her Beta Bucks guy. Maybe she used to date DJs, NFL players, drug dealers, whatever. If these guys are different types of guys than you, do NOT continue the relationship. She has no clue, but she is rationalizing her choice in her mind. You will pay a severe price later, as in cheating, nonstop bitchiness, or sudden divorce. Find a girl that always dated guys like you. She may have swooned for the lead guitarist, but if she didn’t devote her early 20s to chasing him, you’re okay.

Beta Tells

One of the more common questions I’m asked in consults is whether something a guy did was ‘Beta’ or not. Usually it was a situation wherein the guy was instinctually sensitive to his own behavior in context to his Frame and how the woman he was dealing with perceived him. In most cases a man knows when he’s slipped in his perception of dominance with a woman, they just look for a third party confirmation of it – which is then followed by more rationalizations for why his behavior shouldn’t be considered Beta because they believe women are equally rational, equally forgiving, agents as men (really he is) are.

From Gut Check:

Whenever you feel something isn’t quite right in your gut, what this is is your subconscious awareness alerting you to inconsistencies going on around you. We tend to ignore these signs in the thinking that our rational mind ‘knows better’ and things really aren’t what they seem. It’s not as bad as you’re imagining, and you can even feel shame or guilt with yourself for acknowledging that lack of trust. However, it’s just this internal rationalization that keeps us blind to the obvious that our subconscious is trying to warn us about. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people’s actions. So when that predictable behavior changes even marginally, our instinctual perceptions fire off all kinds of warnings. Some of which can actually effect us physically.

It’s at this point most guys make the mistake of acting on the “good communication solves everything” feminized meme and go the full disclosure truth route, which only really leads to more rationalizations and repression of what’s really going on. What they don’t realize is that the MEDIUM is the message; her behavior, her nuances, the incongruousness in her words and demeanor (and how your gut perceives them) is the real message. There is an irregularity in her behavior that your subconscious is alerting you to which your consciousness either cannot or will not recognize.

I began the Alpha Tells post with the intent of recognizing how a woman behaves when she’s in the presence of a Man she perceives to be Alpha. A lot of men get hung up on trying to ‘act’ Alpha; wanting to ape (and hopefully internalize) the behavioral tells a more confident Alpha displays.

Consequently there’s a lot of debate about how men posture and how they naturally display these Alpha cues, but I think the best gauge of what defines those cues is not in men’s displays, but women’s behaviors and attitudes that are prompted by a perception of Alpha-ness.

And just as women will respond viscerally to an Alpha perception, they will also manifest behaviors which indicate her subconscious knows she’s dealing with a Beta aligned male.

It’s easy to pick apart what a guy thinks are his own Alpha tells, but it’s far more uncomfortable to dissect women’s Beta tells when they’re in the presence of men they perceive to be Beta. Much of what I’ll outline that follows will be hard to read for many guys, and as always you’re free to disagree.

My purpose here isn’t to bash Betas, rather it’s to increase awareness of women’s behaviors toward them. As I’ve explained above, try to put these behaviors into a Hypergamous context and how they would be perceived by women who’ve evolved to have an instinctual sensitivity to these Beta behaviors, as well as expressions of Beta attitudes in your words and emotional emphasis.

I could very easily compile a list of behaviors that are simply the reverse of the Alpha Tells I noted in the previous post, but it’s much more important to address the root reasons for these Beta Tells:

  • Does she initiate sex or affection spontaneously?
  • Does she entertain a large pool of “male friend” orbiters with the expectation of you being ‘mature enough’ to accept it?
  • Does she keep a core peer group of ‘girlfriends’ she insists on prioritizing over being with you? Frequent GNOs?
  • Has she explained to you how she was so different  in college and how she’s glad those days are behind her now?
  • Is she experiencing her Epiphany Phase?
  • Does she cite “mismatched libidos” as a reason for her lack of sexual interest in you now that you’re married or living together (even after she’s had better sex with you or a former lover when single)?
  • Is she averse or repulsed by your ejaculate being on her skin, in her mouth or overly concerned with soiling a bed sheet?
  • Will she have sex with you anywhere besides the bed?
  • Do you perform oral on her to get her off more than you have intercourse?
  • Is she a wide-eyed lover or does she squint her eyes closed while having sex? Is sex a chore for her to perform?
  • If you’re married, did she assume your last name, or did she insist on a hyphenated surname for herself?
  • When you’re together does her regular, unpracticed body posture indicate an openness or are you always having to break into her intimate space?
  • Is she preoccupied with her side of the family or a certain pet in preference to being concerned with your well-being?
  • Is she consciously aware of being 1-2 points above your own relative SMV? Is she overt about it?
  • Does she presume authority in your relationship? Do you accede this authority as a matter of (equalist) belief?

There are many more tells of course, and I hope more will be presented in the commentary, but it’s important to understand that these behaviors and attitudes are manifestations of a woman who on some level of consciousness understands that she’s dealing with a Beta man.

I should also mention that, as with Stephen’s case in Moments of Clarity, there are particular phases of a woman’s life when she becomes more attuned to dealing with Beta men due to perceived necessities on her part. A clear understanding of how these phases predispose women to convince themselves to be more accepting of Beta behaviors and a Beta mindset is imperative to avoiding the common pitfalls men encounter with regard to issues of Frame in their relationships.

Beta men are all too eager to believe they’ve matured into being a self-defined Alpha when a semi-attractive 29 year old in the midst of her Epiphany Phase is giving him wide-eyed indicators of interest in him. Only after she’s consolidated on that long-term security does he realize the plans her sexual strategy had for him.

Predisposition for Mate Guarding

One of the best Beta tells is how defensive a guy gets about the subject of mate guarding.

An Alpha has little preoccupation with mate guarding because subconsciously he knows he has sexual options. That applies both within and without monogamy. I’m presenting this here because the majority of what motivates Beta tells (and really a Beta mindset) is rooted in how men deal with a scarcity mentality. Beta tells are almost always indicators that a man believes he needs to guard his paired woman and thus telegraphs a Beta status to that woman as well as other women in her peer clutch.

Mate guarding, and its intrinsic set of subconscious suspicions and behaviors, is an evolved adaptation of ensuring paternity for a Beta-provider. These men must rely upon exchanging resources and external benefits for women’s sexual fidelity. In essence, it’s an unspoken awareness that Beta men must negotiate for what they hope will be a woman’s genuine desire in exchange for his provisioning, parental investment support and emotional involvement.

Beta men are aware on on a limbic level that Hypergamy dictates an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks trade-off in women’s sexual strategy – thus a subconscious ‘mate guarding’ mindset evolved from Beta men’s heightened awareness of women’s preference for Alpha Fucks particularly around the proliferative phase time of women’s ovulation.

Paradoxically, the best assurance you have of fidelity with a woman is simply not to allow yourself to become exclusively monogamous with a woman and rather, have her make the efforts to pair with you under her own auspices you being Alpha. Romance is not required from a lover a woman perceives as Alpha, only his sexual interest – this represents a confirmation of Hypergamous optimization for a woman. The fuck-buddy dynamic – all sexual interests with no reciprocal expectation of emotional investment  – is a strong Alpha tell for a man.

The best gauge for determining a woman’s perception of you as either an Alpha or Beta type is examining yourself and your feeling a ‘need’ to mate guard her, to appease her, or an impulse to correct yourself in order to align with her terms for intimacy. A scarcity mentality is the mental point of origin for a Beta mindset – and that internalized mental model will manifest itself in a predisposition for Beta behaviors.

There’s a common belief that even the most Alpha of men will at times slip into a Beta behaviorism. You can’t be ‘on’ your game all of the time, and while that’s true it doesn’t invalidate that women have a mental model of your overall, predominant condition being either Alpha or Beta. A predominantly Alpha frame and mindset (and yes, looks), plus an acknowledged (real or perceived) SMV primacy will cover a multitude of Beta sins, but the predominant Beta has the sisyphean task of convincing a woman he’s more Alpha than she pegs him for.

So to answer the man asking whether or not something he did was Beta, your answer really lies in your motivation for behaving ‘Beta’ as you did in comparison to how a woman perceives your predominant character.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] Beta Tells […]

Phero
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I can’t see how being married is NOT Beta and Red Pill 99% of the time.
She may stay because she can’t do better and sees her friends fail in the SMP but she still has the trigger to take away your life’s work.
And that leaves him with that burdon of performance hanging over his head.
Yep it’s just “how it is” and that is normality for most men.
Sex always has had a price.

Bob Wallace
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I’ve read enough of the Red Pill subreddit to know the posters are fools. I no longer read it. This pseudo-Evo-Psych nonsense is a perfect example. Of adolescent “thinking,” that is.

Azmah
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Azmah
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I would say don’t bother worrying whether or not you are alpha or beta. Simply keep several women in rotation, if she finds out and gets pissed then make up lame excuses. The women will rationalize it away and you keep doing what you are doing. Wake up, take a shower, eat take a shower,go to sleep take a shower…what? You’re simply a clean person lol always be late comming home, always be busy, never pay her any attention, reply to text 30 min to an hour later. There is no pattern to break. Let her live in YOUR world… Read more »

Alan K
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Hey, Rollo, a quick question: do you see a clear difference between ‘mate-guarding’ and ‘assertive-ownership’ of woman? I do, and I’m guessing that you do as well, based upon your circumstantial criteria.

For example, paranoia and anxiety indicate (beta) desperation, while boldly dragging a woman—especially a wife—home by her hair shows a total lack of fear and a presumed (alpha) authority over her.

The reasons and attitude are everything.

Mate-guarding sometimes gets a bad rap because it’s easily associated with scarcity-mentality. And desperation always smells bad to both men and women.

Meanwhile, assured confidence will always get the benefit of the doubt.

Mike M
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One thought that I keep coming back to….If a man who got little attention from girls in his early twenties (due to his beta-ness) but does now as a 30ish year old, why doesn’t he just look at this as finally his opportunity and simply date several late twenty year old women (Epiphany Phase) at once? He could pay lip service to any serious relationship desires she has while (finally?) getting some easy sex and variety. Just seems like a no brainer for a guy who is now getting more attention. He just has to play into the “yes, you’ve… Read more »

Jordan
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Rollo,

Tangential to what Alan K asked; Vox holds that, within the context of a long-term relationship, occasional strong doses of Alpha from an otherwise Beta man goes a very long way to maintaining relationship fidelity and continued interest from the woman. I believe Heartiste may have also had something to say along thosr lines as well.

Has that been your experience generally speaking?

dcllcd
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@Rollo

Is mate guarding and jealously the same thing?
and
Can those behaviors the eradicated?

dcllcd
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*Correction – “be eradicated?”

M Simon
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My Dad (WW2 vet) was always pointing out the women with Ds and up who passed by him and Mom. “Did you see her?” Or he would tell her of the women making passes at him. It wasn’t until I was 40 that I figured it out. And it wasn’t until I stated reading around in the last few years that I got a deep understanding. And the value of all that? It kept my Mom bonded. She would always act embarrassed but I think she liked it. Looking at other women showed her she had value – “he comes… Read more »

M Simon
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“Can those behaviors the eradicated?”

Yes. But you have to retrain her. And that requires that she WANTS to be bonded to you. Then just show her how your interest in other women and their interest in you help keep her bonded.

And teach her that being and staying bonded is an unnatural state for a woman.

All very difficult. Very much worth the effort if you want to maintain a LTR.

Rokalow
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>> Does she entertain a large pool of “male friend” orbiters with the expectation of you being ‘mature enough’ to accept it? This is not (necessarily) a beta tell. My current girl is an 8 and has a ton of orbiters, and always has. One guy likes to get her a box of chocolates whenever he travels. We eat them after sex. I’ve been awestruck by the heartless things I’ve seen women do to betas without any hesitation. I allow her legion of ‘guy friends’ without a word of protest, for one reason: I’m getting all the sex I want… Read more »

titanic
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titanic
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Lotsacocksalolz Studies 401
The History of Hypergamy
Prof. Tomassi

Hobbes
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The more I read these lists the more disturbed I get.. because according to this list I must be an alpha. And on paper I guess I am. An N count of well over 50 women, and as I read this list I find that women have always behaved this way with me… but….. and here is the part that disturbs me.. I always screwed it up. I read these lists and descriptions and realize that women see me as alpha, and I, conditioned as I am, always ruin it by becoming beta as soon as I start to like… Read more »

bbb
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“Does she initiate sex or affection spontaneously?”

I don’t see this as a beta tell. If she wants to have sex with you, aren’t you exhibiting alpha?

Will
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This all makes sense. But. What if you want to go to dinner with a fuck buddy, and you enjoy her company, so you take her out. Which, can be framed as pedestalizing b/c your spending money/resources on her, but it’s because you like hanging out with her….. I take it this will cause her to steer away from you? And move away from being a fuck buddy? That’s so fucked up to think about…like if you want to do something nice for your girl you shouldn’t? B/c her perception of you will subconsciously change? Idk man. Males have higher… Read more »

Will
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Also, I think that it’s impirtant to realize that the sexual market is…..a market. It’s a market. Say it again. It’s a market. What the manosphere (especially Rollo and ch) do is they tell you what are smart investments in this market and what potential investments will fuckin burn you. (I.e. All of these covert ways to identify unhealthy female/male relationship dynamics). Also, I think that the more you learn about the market or realize how to play in this market….then the better time you will have with girls and the better chance you have for one to keep chasing.… Read more »

Tinder Master
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I believe a man’s instinctive predisposition towards Alpha or Beta is already set at conception. The majority of men (betas) can only arm themselves with knowledge, avoid mistakes, and if he’s really looking for that primal alpha love women can give, aim for a chick of lower market value (in relation to his). This especially rings true with the young crowd. I’ve never came across a relationship where a guy was 2 points lower than the girl and it lasting more than 3 months. Either the girl cheats or it wanes off (mainly by her own indifference towards the guy).… Read more »

Ras al Ghul
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Rokalow: “Besides, her betas – unbeknownst to them – have zero chance of ending up in bed with her. She and I both know sleeping with one of her orbiters would be a significant net loss for her because I can and would get another girl, quickly. This would end her chance at the marriage proposal she is hoping for. She’s not doing that, especially not with an orbiter.” How do you know they have “zero chance”? hmm? Because she tells you that? You’re thinking she’s a rational long term thinker about the net loss thing too. And women live… Read more »

dcllcd
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@M Simon

Thanks for responding.

I think I get what you’re saying. Show and display your higher value, through pre-selection and things of that nature, and she will bond to you.

“And teach her that being and staying bonded is an unnatural state for a woman.” I’m not sure I understand that quote though.

How is staying bonded an unnatural state for a woman? Isn’t it the most natural thing for a woman to bond to a man?

I’m a little confused.

Ras al Ghul
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Tinder Master:

“I’ve made girls do things they’ve never done before with their boyfriends. All types of sexual acts and one even said, “I’ll never do this with _____, he wouldn’t appreciate it.” ”

“I’ve never done that before” has got to be one of the biggest lies a woman tells a man.

Makes you feel special, doesn’t it, which is the whole idea.

Badpainter
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Ras al Ghul – “Makes you feel special, doesn’t it, which is the whole idea.”

Actually it makes feel like a chump that she thinks/feels/whatever that I’d be dumb enough to fall for that shit. It’s an indictment of my intelligence, and my dignity. It’s a real mood killer, and a motivation killer.

Will
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I also think that something is seriously seriously seriously wrong with American culture. The fact that the manosphere is blowing up at the fast rate that it is tells you that something is wrong with the sexual market.

Tons of guys shouldn’t be as confused and as analytical in the manosphere as they are and increasingly so. It’s actually scary to see and hear and read about so much confusion and analysis.
Yes it’s healthy to understand the sexual market, but something is wrong when we start seeing the manosphere blowing up like it is. Just saying

Tinder Master
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@ Ra al Ghul and Badpainter:

While I get what you guys are saying, that’s not exactly what I’m getting at. It’s the fact that she’s reserving her genuine desire for a different man that’s the “tell”. I mean, sure, chicks could be lying, but when you’ve done everything imaginable with most and hear about how other men are not able to get a simple blowjob from their partners, then that really puts things into perspective.

BC
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do you see a clear difference between ‘mate-guarding’ and ‘assertive-ownership’ of woman?

Mate guarding = Fear of losing her due to scarcity mentality
Assertive ownership = Marking territory, but also completely willing to kick her to the curb (NEXT!) because you know you can find (or already have) others just as good or better

If you are not honestly making the above distinction, then you are trying to euphemize ‘mate-guarding’ as ‘assertive-ownership’.

Tinder Master
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“Do you ever see these orbiters?..If you haven’t met these guys, she’s probably sleeping around more than you realize” This is true. When a girl is really feeling you (and only you) she’ll cut off a huge bulk of her orbiters or completely ignore them (at least while you two are fucking). If she’s still entertaining them after you’ve been fucking her for quite some time, then you’re just not “all that” to her and she’s definitely looking to upgrade. Basically, it’s hypergamy at work. Also, some orbiters aren’t complete betas as the puasphere makes them out to be. Some… Read more »

Anonymous
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It can be a battle at times to fight the tendency to slide into beta behaviour once a level of comfort and intimancy has been reached with a woman. I am aware of this and yet will still falter. I believe that this in part stems from my main role models; my parents and the dynamics of the relationship between them, me and my siblings. My father was and is a Beta. A good, hard working man but still a beta. In addition to this, he is the youngest of six siblings. So after putting his behaviour under some Red… Read more »

Badpainter
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Tinder Master, I take you at face value and understand what your saying. My comment is only my own response to such lies. I know that I am the beta, and that the lies are just a shameless ploy at getting something out of me in exchange for nothing. At which point I walk because my time is being wasted and my patience is being abused. Rollo’s point about gut instinct applies here. If I get the feeling something is off, if there’s too much anxiety, if I worry at all about “how I am doing” in the evaluative sense… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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Is she averse or repulsed by your ejaculate being on her skin, in her mouth or overly concerned with soiling a bed sheet?
(Time…)

Hobbes
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You can’t count too much on anything women say or do “I’d never do this with… ” is BS, every guy gets that line “I’d never sleep with……” is BS, she would She is having wild sex with you? so what. Women are good at this, many times she’ll bang you senseless and leave you nonetheless.. the affair gets her hot and bothered, and the thought of cuckolding two men hotter still… She is all lovey dovey with you and treating you like a king? means nothing, just ask any guy who has been whiplashed by a wife filing for… Read more »

eon
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eon
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“There’s a common belief that even the most Alpha of men will at times slip into a Beta behaviorism. You can’t be ‘on’ your game all of the time, and while that’s true it doesn’t invalidate that women have a mental model of your overall, predominant condition being either Alpha or Beta.” [From the end of Rollo’s article] . Men can create problems for themselves by not mentally separating important elements of “frame and mindset” (for long-term relationships), so that dependencies and magnitudes can be seen clearly, instead of allowing them to exist as something vague (and confusing), in their… Read more »

M Simon
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These women privately consider their beta friends to be weak, afraid

The first mate and I were discussing the betas she knew and why she found them unattractive. And a statement something like that is exactly what came up. “I couldn’t trust them to protect me when I was in danger. They couldn’t make a decision and certainly not a good one.” Was approximately what she said.

M Simon
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dcllcd
November 12th, 2014 at 12:53 am

How is staying bonded an unnatural state for a woman? Isn’t it the most natural thing for a woman to bond to a man?

Hypergamy works against long term bonding. So maybe I should have said “long term bonding is unnatural.”

I’ve gotten her to acknowledge her nature. I have trained her to say “I like watching you with other women. It makes me hot for you.” And every time she says it she gets a tingle. We both feel it. Delicious.

M Simon
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I might add that I do give some comfort in return. “When you are hot for me it makes me hot for you.”

Women intrinsically are OK with not being the only. (After all they “get” alphas) What they want to think is that they are at the top of the list. Feed that.

And of course with other women on the list they work hard to stay at the top. Competition improves her.

StrongivenC
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“The best gauge for determining a woman’s perception of you as either an Alpha or Beta type is examining yourself and your feeling a ‘need’ to mate guard her, to appease her, or an impulse to correct yourself in order to align with her terms for intimacy” Maybe I am oversimplifying, but I think that “mate guarding”, “appease the other” and the “impulse to correct yourself in order to align with the other” are almost always present in every relationship, in a side or in the other of the relationship. This is the Beta side. If (in an heterosexual relation)… Read more »

jf12
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Great post, Rollo. I especially agree with “mate guarding” as the prime beta tell. One point I’m less clear about is “these behaviors and attitudes are manifestations of a woman who on some level of consciousness understands that she’s dealing with a Beta man.” I’m always amazed that womne (AWALT) keep saying things like “He provides for me, so providing is alpha. He opens doors for me, so opening doors is alpha. He brings me flowers, so bringing flowers is alpha.” Women evidently believe that whatever they *like* about a man is necesarily alpha. Softek on the previous post made… Read more »

jf12
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@StronggiveC, re: “For example “make her jealous” is an efficient technique to move the weight of the “mate guarding” from your side to hers. If you do this, you are trying to get control over the relation (Cardinal Rule of Relationships).”

Great suggestion.

Bango Tango
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The fuck-buddy dynamic – all sexual interests with no reciprocal expectation of emotional investment  – is a strong Alpha tell for a man. This is the only way of dealing with women at this point. All men should adopt this mindset. Romance is dead and was probably just a fantasy in men’s minds to begin with. Betas especially need to view women in this way to keep their romantic fantasies in check. As men our sexual needs must come first or you should walk from the relationship. Women will not be willing to tolerate this from men who they perceive… Read more »

manosphere lurker
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In other news, Open Hypergamy is alive and well:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2831396/Best-man-catches-friend-s-wife-cheating-barman.html

“What’s going on here?”
“Yup, you know exactly what’s going on here.”

“That’s not your husband, right”
“Nope!”

The tone she uses to answers his questions says a lot. Just look at the way she smiles while getting caught in the act. Women have no shame anymore.

bbb
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Beta tell: this -> http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2014/09/the-red-pill/ Where we are expected not to be “male”, but be hetero cis-gendered males. Otherwise nobody knows what we are talking about. This article asserts – without evidence – that red pill adherents hate women, treat women like shit, focus on manipulation and coercion, believe women are devoid of reason and logic, are emotionally abusive, lack internal consistency, use techniques of recruitment used by hate groups for centuries, and offer an enemy (a target) for revenge. Red pillers are not particularly focused on issues like the rape crisis in the military, the demonization of African-American men,… Read more »

Softek
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First: I didn’t know what HUS was until a couple days ago. Kept seeing that around here. Been on this blog for quite a while now but never saw HUS until now…and god damn is that an education. What a mindfuck. If I didn’t have RM to refer to I would be out in the weeds believing all the BS they’re shoveling out over there. The degree of doublespeak and covert manipulation/subliminal messaging/behind the scenes lying and hypocrisy is just unbelievable. If I hadn’t found RM first I’d be lost. A guy the other day told me he thought feminism… Read more »

walawala
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Major beta tell: buying gifts in the hopes of “winning” a girl’s love. Grand gestures… https://au.news.yahoo.com/odd/a/25489722/man-buys-99-iphones-to-propose-girlfriend-says-no/

jimmythesaint
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@manosphere lurker

read the comments, immediate boilerplate default response to footage is to blame the man’s performance and shame him for not providing enough support. pfffffffftttttttttt. Damned of you do and damned if you dont……..

kfg
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” . . . Red pillers are not particularly focused on issues like the rape crisis in the military . . .”

This is an issue that concerns me quite a bit. Women in the military are raping men at an alarming rate, and if caught, it is the men who are prosecuted and have their carreers destroyed.

jf12
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My answers to Rollo’s initial list. I am the consummate beta, and my wife is 64 btw. •Does she initiate sex or affection spontaneously? No, never. But I know she counts her IOIs as her initiating, whereas I would count an IOI as merely signalling openness to me initiating. •Does she entertain a large pool of “male friend” orbiters with the expectation of you being ‘mature enough’ to accept it? No, she is basically scared of men, especially if I’m not around. •Does she keep a core peer group of ‘girlfriends’ she insists on prioritizing over being with you? Frequent… Read more »

sfcton
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never go down on her. eating pussy is chick work jf12 if a woman perceives a man to be alpha enough she will view the majority of his actions as alpha if its a neutral topic and….. women lie t themselves so she might very well be trying to con herself into thinking the guy is alpha so she can bitch/ brag to her “friends” “This article asserts – without evidence – that red pill adherents hate women, treat women like shit, focus on manipulation and coercion, believe women are devoid of reason and logic, are emotionally abusive, lack internal… Read more »

jf12
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Pero says “that leaves him with that burdon of performance”

Repeating: if she usually performs for him, then he’s alpha. If instead he usually has to perform for her and she doesn’t perform, then he’s beta.

thedeti
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Another beta tell:

Her emotional state governs his emotional state and the overall tenor and course of the relationship.

He is consistently attempting to discern her emotional state.

When she is in a “bad” emotional state, he consistently attempts to corral and redirect her into a “good” emotional state.

Softek
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@ eon

“Whether you are a Natural, or someone who first learned, and then thought and internalized, and thus recreated himself, does not matter. What does matter is that you are solid and certain, now, within yourself (as you verify the truth about yourself).

However, if you are still, in any way, like the woman who sobs and then peeks through her fingers to gauge the effect and modify her manipulation, then you have lost before you even start.”

excellent

jf12
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@thedeti re: “He is consistently attempting to discern her emotional state.”

It’s usually not hard to tell. hee hee. Actually I don’t recall ever saying to any woman “What are you feeling?” It’s often not clear “why are you feeling” etc, but the emotional state itself is usually crystal clear.

re: “Her emotional state governs”

Yes. “When momma’s unhappy …”

Sao Feng
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If the woman is walking in front of the man when a couple is out…

LiveFearless
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A man in traditional marriage, following the script that tells him act beta in every hit song he’s heard for most of his life, the same script in every ___________ (you name the source) he’s expfor most of his life… That’s learning from Rollo Tomassi and a few others should matter right now.

jf12
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Man having to meet expectations of woman = he is beta
Woman having to meet expectations of man = he is alpha

eon
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In my previous comment, I wrote that trying to establish your being in charge as the basis of your relationship, after the fact, is often difficult, but I forgot to include a way in which this could be fixed. One way to change the basis of your relationship would be to start chipping away at your equalist (or worse) dynamic slowly and calmly, but always firmly and resolutely, one small piece at a time. This will have to be implicit, in a sense, because the explicit declaration (you tell her how things are going to be, up front) that would… Read more »

jf12
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Let’s regroup around one of the concepts: in the current SMP if the man always has to initiate, then he is beta. Period. If the man almost always gets shot down after trying to initiate, then he is beta. Period. His miniscule successes are the exceptions that prove the rule. Period. The womenz at Donal’s are of the opinion that men shouldn’t take women’s opinions seriously: The women keep saying that initiating and being shot down, because women are of the opinion he isn’t good enough, are part and parcel of being a man, and hence a man shouldn’t care… Read more »

Bluepillprofessor
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“Is she averse or repulsed by your ejaculate being on her skin, in her mouth or overly concerned with soiling a bed sheet?” I first saw this with Archwinger over at TRP who describes this exactly in a marriage. This is perhaps the clearest Beta Tell in a marriage. If she jumps up immediately after sex to wash out that disgusting Beta spooj you can be sure she thinks of you as a Beta and is performing nothing but Duty Sex. My wife did this for years. The interesting thing is when I discovered the Red Pill and upped my… Read more »

jf12
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Rollo mentions “Doubtless a woman will swoon for an Alpha who’ll confirm her associative value to him by mate guarding her, but his mate guarding is similar to the rare reward of a display of Beta sensitivity women so value from Alpha men.”

Bingo.

jf12
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Regarding situational alphas. Repeat the mantra “there is no beta with a side of alpha”, but there is definitely alpha with a side of beta. Many men, such as me, are beta through and through because they are beta around women even if not “beta” around men. For example, Bill Gates is beta through and through because he is beta around women, and his “alphaness” in the boardroom doesn’t matter at all. I know a lot of men who are betas around their wives, and invariably they are betas around other women too. On the flipside I know very few… Read more »

lint
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“I have very few comments and receive no email contact regarding how offensive my content is to women’s sensibilities.”

That’s because most women who read your blog are too appalled to comment on its content, plus they have seen how nastily you treat women and men who dare to say something unfavorable.

Don’t flatter yourself believing that you are somehow an exception from the virulent misogyny and hideous idiocy of TRP.

New Yorker
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@eon Excellent comments. The key is to have a clear SMV edge and know for yourself, irrespective of how much you love your woman, that this love will never hold you hostage to a bad situation. Your woman should know that and provided that you treat her well and she feels that she has optimized her hypergamy, she will bend over backwards to make you happy. This can allow a man to be genuinely in love and treat his woman warmly, while at the same time, implicitly stating that it is not an option to revert to any other form… Read more »

New Yorker
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A big part of getting the relationship you want is maximizng your SMV advantage to demand that your happiness becomes a central part of her life. It has to be the right woman of course, but nevertheless, you will not get that kind of treatment unless she knows that it is what you expect and that no other option is even permissible. Monogamy and family can be great experiences for men (I grew up in a house like that) but they have to be approached from an “I demand this life” mindset where a man can have concrete tools for… Read more »

bbb
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@Lint

Non-trolling, well presented challenges to the red pill have been taken seriously here before. The problem usually is that the challenges fall apart when they rely upon unsupported invective such as “virulent misogyny” and “hideous idiocy”.

Hobbes
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Much as I enjoy a good debate and challenges to any one of my beliefs, I have to say that this is the last place I would want to see the FIs making their case.
RM is the smartest and most intellectually honest RP blog out there and even the comments here are a source of intelligent debate and information. Lets be honest here, the feminists and the white knights will not argue rationally or intelligently, it will always, every time, descend into name calling, shaming and solipsism.

sfcton
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mate guarding; I let the mates do the guarding. About every two months or so I’ll tell some dude “good luck” when he gets to the point one of the girls is getting pissy about the approaches. So it comes down to frame. When I think of betas doing the mate guarding its from a position of weakness. When I do it its challenge accepted and good luck to you; you’ll need it

jf12
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When a woman says “He’s not a good leader *because* he’s not leading me the way I think I should be led.” then he’s beta if and only if she’s not actually following him.

When a woman says “He is a good leader *because* he is leading me the way I want to be led.” then he’s beta, regardless of whether she’s actually following or not.

When a woman says “I’m trying to be a good follower of him; I hope and pray he thinks so.” then he’s alpha, regardless of whether he’s a good leader or not.

jf12
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This is still a men’s lockerroom, not yet sanitized for women’s convenience. If it is the malodorous atmosphere that keeps women from primacy, then make a stink, here and elsewhere.

Jd1
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Rollo, try to fix the typos in the first sentence, I passed this on to a big name journalist that understands what’s going on today and I don’t want him to be turned off by the typos at the start and not read the blog.

jf12
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Livefearless mentioned The Script being a recipe for beta. Certainly I as a boomer, but I think most other generations too, were raised on The Script of men trying to be pleasing to women, and lately feminism has been doubling down on raising women to refuse to be pleasing to men.

I think what women find most appalling about this place is that with the redpill we can clearly see that women ought to be trying harder to please men.

jf12
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Beta tell: wife makes husband hold her purse so she can shop easier.
Beta tell: wife makes husband hand her his wallet so she can shop easier.

The deciding factor: if he has to do what she wants to make her happy, then he’s beta. The better beta he is, the more he has to do for her.

If he’s alpha, then she has to try to make him happy INSTEAD. period.

Bachelorocles
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The semen one is ingenious, Rollo. Does she submissively grovel before your erection and moan while blowing you? Does she dislike your smell when you’re dirty and sweaty? Does she “bust your balls” or subtly make fun of you or make smart-assed remarks to you in front of others? Does she mildly humiliate you in front of others and reveal an irrepressible smile after doing so? Does she wield authority over you? Does she subtly flaunt that authority in front of others? Eg, ask you to get her things? Eg, get up to get her a drink? Her purse? Does… Read more »

M Simon
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believe women are devoid of reason and logic, are emotionally abusive, lack internal consistency,

I believe that is a fair cop.

Bachelorocles
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jf12
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According to Gottman, it is the wife’s contemptuous *behavior* that causes most relationship problems, and the number one predictor of divorce is the husband’s *feelings* that his wife is contemptuous.

Zelcorpion
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Does she emasculate you in front of others by pointing out how wonderful, how successful or how attractive another man is?

I have seen this something happening to a distant friend of mine whose girlfriend always does this. The first time this happened I was taken aback and just stared at them and he did not even blink – he did not even realize how degrading that is to him.

Not passing shit-tests of any kind is a Beta tell as well.

Appeasing a woman whenever she is in a slightly bad mood.

George
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@bbb

“Does she initiate sex or affection spontaneously?”

I don’t see this as a beta tell. If she wants to have sex with you, aren’t you exhibiting alpha?

This IS a beta tell. Women innately want the man to take the initiative especially sexually. They want to be desired by a man who is uninhibited and self confident. They want to be fucked. If she is the one initiating, then he has not initiated and she is the aggressor. Alphas initiate.

New Yorker
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Initiating sex is about who wants it more. If she does it, there is your answer. After she initiates, an an alpha, you dominate.

Badpainter
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Women initiate sex:

George – “This IS a beta tell.”

I’ve had women initiate 25% of the time in my limited experience. As a beta I have to agree with George. But I would add context matters and without context I think it could go either way. I would also question what is the motivation of the average woman to initiate sex with a beta if betas are supposed to be devoid of arousal traits.

Badpainter
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And Rollo thanks for posting this. This is the sort of information that needs to be assembled and printed on 3×5 cards as a cheat sheet for the newly unplugged. Maybe you should think about a smartphone app; The Rationale Male Field Reference Guide.

George
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When I read The Rational Male and began reading this blog I immediately thought this entire endeavor is a reaction of male weakness and self depreciation. I still think this. The existence of the manosphere itself is a reaction to social dynamics. Man has placed woman upon a pedestal. Men (most men) are apparently content to let women set the standards to which men judge themselves and each other. The process of “becoming red pill aware” in this context is actually a process in which men still defer their sense of self worth to women. The red pill concept is… Read more »

New Yorker
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Becoming red pill aware is about living your life for you and on your terms. Women happen to recognize that and are attracted to such men. If you are not getting alpha tells from a woman, that means you are not red pill aware in a real way, but even if you are getting alpha tells, it does not mean that you are living life on your terms. It simply means women find you attractive for other reasons (physical, temporary infatuation with your money, etc.)).

Glenn
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@ Hobbes – I can relate to your comment in a number of ways. As I look more deeply into how this plays out in my life, I see that sometimes I confuse sexual market value with alpha status in women’s eyes. I also find much of this analysis hard to act on in the moment, and in fact, the more I’m thinking, the more beta I am. For me, my smv went up and down based on weight, but I was blessed with natural good looks, even though only 5’8″. I have been with many dimes, my ex-wife being… Read more »

Softek
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@ George I see it differently. To get rid of the subconscious programs, you have to go with the programs. The reality is simply that the majority of men defer to women. Most men are drowning in their emotions surrounding women and have no resources to pull themselves out. They only have one option: feel helpless and hopeless. In order to remedy this, you have to appeal to the desire to defer to women. Go with the program. And the program is “I need women to make me happy,” or maybe more specifically, “I need unconditional love from women to… Read more »

New Yorker
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Red Pill is not about fucking girls. It is about entering relationships with women on the terms that make sense to you and not changing your innate preferences in those relationships while demanding reciprocity from women. It means never qualifying for a woman’s affection and making clear that you value nothing beyond your happiness. That can mean being a cad, being a dad or anything in between……but it has to always be only on your terms….and that’s it..

Bachelorocles
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@George: Red Pill is unplugging from an evaluation of yourself which is based upon how you perceive women evaluate you. Ironically, and some may say strangely, when you take that attitude, women will evaluate you more highly. Being Alpha means a lot of things, but a necessary condition of Alpha is not being needy with respect to women – truly not caring whether you get laid or are loved by a woman, not caring if a woman turns you down (because you know women evaluate men based upon shallow reasons). And when you know women evaluate men for shallow, flighty,… Read more »

Softek
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@ Glenn “Perhaps the best change I’ve made is taking up weight lifting seriously. Putting on muscle changes my entire appearance. I’ve put on enough upper body weight now where I’m getting more of a V shaped torso, with muscular chest, arms and shoulders – and everyone treats me differently. Men and women, it’s crazy.” I recently started doing my hair differently. I have very thick/wavy hair and I started styling it like James Dean. I’ve noticed I’ve been getting more attention since then. A girl at work today said “You are killing me with that haircut.” I also got… Read more »

dcllcd
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@Rollo Okay, let’s see if I got this… Mate Guarding is not attractive to a woman, especially if she perceives her partner to be a beta. (Ex. specifically his motivations behind the behavior; neediness, scarcity mentality) But, Assertive Ownership is attractive to a woman, especially if she perceives her partner to be an alpha. (Ex. specifically his motivations behind the behavior; marking his territory, abundance mentality) The reason I’m so interested in the whole mate guarding thing is because, I figure, if I can find out where these feelings come from I can better prepare myself to deal with them,… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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“her friend said I looked like a serial killer, and this little girl at Wendy’s told me I looked like a werewolf.”
Problem?
You sound like a natural&synergistic fit for Glasgow. Come over and fill yer boots son. But ixnay on the ickchay crack, ok? Fuckin arsetrollogy, whur’s ma wee malkie got tae?

dcllcd
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@Rollo

I’ve read that one and commented as well. Cool read, I’m just still a little confused.

Snowy
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@badpainter

Context matters for the semen “tell” too. My ex-wife used to go to the toilet to expel my load from her a**hole shortly after deposition. I think it was more a matter of cleanliness/hygiene (and not dripping c*m all over the place) than necessarily considering me a full-blown (pardon the pun) beta.

stuttie
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I spot mate guarding all the time now. Mate guarding is essentially a PDA (public display of affection). If you’re the one grabbing her hand, kissing her, or putting your arm around her, then that is a form of mate guarding. If she is the one initiating the PDA then she perceives you as Alpha and of high value.

jf12
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@dcllcd re: confused.

Maybe this helps: everything you were taught by society on how to be a True Man, a Good Man, etc. was designed specifically to make you more beta, in service to the FI.

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