Beta Tells

couple-talking-3

 

TRP poster, needathrowawayplease from the Red Pill subreddit has a timely question / observation:

Knowing your SO’s menstrual cycle can be extremely powerful. [Indeed]

During the fertile stage of her cycle, thousands of years of evolution mean her body is screaming at her to get knocked up by an alpha male. A simple test to determine is she sees you as her alpha fucks is to not initiate during the fertile period of her cycle and observe her behavior: does she come to you to get fucked? Does her body language or physical behavior change when she’s fertile. Maybe she touches you more often or more intimately or plays the role of the seductress: things like coming to bed wearing lingerie where she usually wouldn’t? Even if she’s relatively low-sex drive and doesn’t initiate, does she at least respond more passionately to your sexual advances or orgasm more easily or intensely when she’s fertile?

You obviously can’t draw conclusions from a single cycle but you should eventually see a pattern – and the more she values you sexually during her fertile period the better. If she isn’t doing anything differently or reacting to you differently when she’s fertile, something’s up.

This test can have false negatives but not false positives. There’s no false positive case where she suddenly starts riding you while you’re watching the Packers game but she doesn’t see you as her alpha. But it can have false negatives where she doesn’t initiate but still sees you as her alpha. If she isn’t initiating when she’s fertile (and you aren’t initiating in order to test her reaction), it could be due to stress, lack of time, being too used to you doing the initiation, etc. But at the very least she should be demonstrating increased passion and sexual ecstasy during her fertile period.

At a high-level:

The best case: She initiates during her fertile period if you don’t. She gets cravings for your D.

The OK case: She responds more passionately and orgasms more easily during her fertile period.

The uh-oh, something might be wrong case: No observable change during her fertile period.

The beta case: Dead bedroom, what the fuck are you even doing (sorry if you got married and you can’t get out).

Of course if she’s an extremely sexual being and all of the above describes your sex life 24/7, then none of this should even concern you.

Disclaimer: Once again, this test is a tool that works best for women with higher sex drives (who really wanna get fucked when they’re fertile). If your 37 year old wife of 15 years fucks you when you want and isn’t cheating, you’re fine. I don’t think test applies to all women (LOL, broke /trp/ rules oops) but it’s useful nonetheless.

Lets presume for a moment that neither a controlled experiment nor an uncontrolled, but documented, correlatively scientific, sociological field study has ever been performed to test the principle of feminine Hypergamy. For a moment, as a man, imagine yourself living in a period of time prior to any formalized school of psychology; pre-turn of the 20th century. There is no Pavlov, there is no Skinner, there is no Freud.

Using only personal observations, observations of learned behaviors related by your father and brothers, male friends and the intergender experiences of a very socially isolated (by today’s standards) group of  people who make up your peers, and a restrictively limited access to any classic philosophical literature beyond the Judeo-Christian Bible – what would you presume would be the nature inimical to women and the feminine?

Would your observations, intuition and the education proffered by your father, brothers and other influential male friends and relations lead to an insight to know what Hypergamy is, how it motivates women and how to control for, or capitalize on it?

Not only do I believe it would, but I would argue that, up until the sexual revolution and the past 60 or so years, men have had an innate and learned understanding of Hypergamy, how it functions, and how to control for it.

To be sure, it didn’t have the formal name of ‘Hypergamy’ – in fact that term was until recently, strictly defined and reserved for “women with the tendency to marry above their socioeconomic level” in polite, pop-psychology circles – but men knew Hypergamy before the manopshere (re)exposed its true definition.

Waging Hypergamy

Resistance to the uncomfortable truths innate to the female experience is to be expected from women – until the advent of Open Hypergamy, the Feminine Imperative needed the sisterhood to be united and its secrets jealously guarded to the point of cognitive dissonance.

My guess is that most of my female critics would still agree with the basic parameters of Hypergamy, but what I doubt they’re aware of is that in denying the inherent biological nature of female Hypergamy women must also reject the sociological, psychological and (observably) behavioral aspects of Hypergamy inherent (and largely subconscious) in women.

Commenter Mookie:

“As women approach the Epiphany Phase (later the Wall) and realize the decay of their SMV (in comparison to younger women), they become progressively more incentivized towards attraction to the qualities a man possesses that will best satisfy the long-term security of the Beta Bucks side of her Hypergamy demands.”

Did your woman say, “you’re (so much) different than the guys I used to date.” Or, “I finally got smart and found a good guy.” If so, this is clear evidence that you are her Beta Bucks guy. Maybe she used to date DJs, NFL players, drug dealers, whatever. If these guys are different types of guys than you, do NOT continue the relationship. She has no clue, but she is rationalizing her choice in her mind. You will pay a severe price later, as in cheating, nonstop bitchiness, or sudden divorce. Find a girl that always dated guys like you. She may have swooned for the lead guitarist, but if she didn’t devote her early 20s to chasing him, you’re okay.

Beta Tells

One of the more common questions I’m asked in consults is whether something a guy did was ‘Beta’ or not. Usually it was a situation wherein the guy was instinctually sensitive to his own behavior in context to his Frame and how the woman he was dealing with perceived him. In most cases a man knows when he’s slipped in his perception of dominance with a woman, they just look for a third party confirmation of it – which is then followed by more rationalizations for why his behavior shouldn’t be considered Beta because they believe women are equally rational, equally forgiving, agents as men (really he is) are.

From Gut Check:

Whenever you feel something isn’t quite right in your gut, what this is is your subconscious awareness alerting you to inconsistencies going on around you. We tend to ignore these signs in the thinking that our rational mind ‘knows better’ and things really aren’t what they seem. It’s not as bad as you’re imagining, and you can even feel shame or guilt with yourself for acknowledging that lack of trust. However, it’s just this internal rationalization that keeps us blind to the obvious that our subconscious is trying to warn us about. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people’s actions. So when that predictable behavior changes even marginally, our instinctual perceptions fire off all kinds of warnings. Some of which can actually effect us physically.

It’s at this point most guys make the mistake of acting on the “good communication solves everything” feminized meme and go the full disclosure truth route, which only really leads to more rationalizations and repression of what’s really going on. What they don’t realize is that the MEDIUM is the message; her behavior, her nuances, the incongruousness in her words and demeanor (and how your gut perceives them) is the real message. There is an irregularity in her behavior that your subconscious is alerting you to which your consciousness either cannot or will not recognize.

I began the Alpha Tells post with the intent of recognizing how a woman behaves when she’s in the presence of a Man she perceives to be Alpha. A lot of men get hung up on trying to ‘act’ Alpha; wanting to ape (and hopefully internalize) the behavioral tells a more confident Alpha displays.

Consequently there’s a lot of debate about how men posture and how they naturally display these Alpha cues, but I think the best gauge of what defines those cues is not in men’s displays, but women’s behaviors and attitudes that are prompted by a perception of Alpha-ness.

And just as women will respond viscerally to an Alpha perception, they will also manifest behaviors which indicate her subconscious knows she’s dealing with a Beta aligned male.

It’s easy to pick apart what a guy thinks are his own Alpha tells, but it’s far more uncomfortable to dissect women’s Beta tells when they’re in the presence of men they perceive to be Beta. Much of what I’ll outline that follows will be hard to read for many guys, and as always you’re free to disagree.

My purpose here isn’t to bash Betas, rather it’s to increase awareness of women’s behaviors toward them. As I’ve explained above, try to put these behaviors into a Hypergamous context and how they would be perceived by women who’ve evolved to have an instinctual sensitivity to these Beta behaviors, as well as expressions of Beta attitudes in your words and emotional emphasis.

I could very easily compile a list of behaviors that are simply the reverse of the Alpha Tells I noted in the previous post, but it’s much more important to address the root reasons for these Beta Tells:

  • Does she initiate sex or affection spontaneously?
  • Does she entertain a large pool of “male friend” orbiters with the expectation of you being ‘mature enough’ to accept it?
  • Does she keep a core peer group of ‘girlfriends’ she insists on prioritizing over being with you? Frequent GNOs?
  • Has she explained to you how she was so different  in college and how she’s glad those days are behind her now?
  • Is she experiencing her Epiphany Phase?
  • Does she cite “mismatched libidos” as a reason for her lack of sexual interest in you now that you’re married or living together (even after she’s had better sex with you or a former lover when single)?
  • Is she averse or repulsed by your ejaculate being on her skin, in her mouth or overly concerned with soiling a bed sheet?
  • Will she have sex with you anywhere besides the bed?
  • Do you perform oral on her to get her off more than you have intercourse?
  • Is she a wide-eyed lover or does she squint her eyes closed while having sex? Is sex a chore for her to perform?
  • If you’re married, did she assume your last name, or did she insist on a hyphenated surname for herself?
  • When you’re together does her regular, unpracticed body posture indicate an openness or are you always having to break into her intimate space?
  • Is she preoccupied with her side of the family or a certain pet in preference to being concerned with your well-being?
  • Is she consciously aware of being 1-2 points above your own relative SMV? Is she overt about it?
  • Does she presume authority in your relationship? Do you accede this authority as a matter of (equalist) belief?

There are many more tells of course, and I hope more will be presented in the commentary, but it’s important to understand that these behaviors and attitudes are manifestations of a woman who on some level of consciousness understands that she’s dealing with a Beta man.

I should also mention that, as with Stephen’s case in Moments of Clarity, there are particular phases of a woman’s life when she becomes more attuned to dealing with Beta men due to perceived necessities on her part. A clear understanding of how these phases predispose women to convince themselves to be more accepting of Beta behaviors and a Beta mindset is imperative to avoiding the common pitfalls men encounter with regard to issues of Frame in their relationships.

Beta men are all too eager to believe they’ve matured into being a self-defined Alpha when a semi-attractive 29 year old in the midst of her Epiphany Phase is giving him wide-eyed indicators of interest in him. Only after she’s consolidated on that long-term security does he realize the plans her sexual strategy had for him.

Predisposition for Mate Guarding

One of the best Beta tells is how defensive a guy gets about the subject of mate guarding.

An Alpha has little preoccupation with mate guarding because subconsciously he knows he has sexual options. That applies both within and without monogamy. I’m presenting this here because the majority of what motivates Beta tells (and really a Beta mindset) is rooted in how men deal with a scarcity mentality. Beta tells are almost always indicators that a man believes he needs to guard his paired woman and thus telegraphs a Beta status to that woman as well as other women in her peer clutch.

Mate guarding, and its intrinsic set of subconscious suspicions and behaviors, is an evolved adaptation of ensuring paternity for a Beta-provider. These men must rely upon exchanging resources and external benefits for women’s sexual fidelity. In essence, it’s an unspoken awareness that Beta men must negotiate for what they hope will be a woman’s genuine desire in exchange for his provisioning, parental investment support and emotional involvement.

Beta men are aware on on a limbic level that Hypergamy dictates an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks trade-off in women’s sexual strategy – thus a subconscious ‘mate guarding’ mindset evolved from Beta men’s heightened awareness of women’s preference for Alpha Fucks particularly around the proliferative phase time of women’s ovulation.

Paradoxically, the best assurance you have of fidelity with a woman is simply not to allow yourself to become exclusively monogamous with a woman and rather, have her make the efforts to pair with you under her own auspices you being Alpha. Romance is not required from a lover a woman perceives as Alpha, only his sexual interest – this represents a confirmation of Hypergamous optimization for a woman. The fuck-buddy dynamic – all sexual interests with no reciprocal expectation of emotional investment  – is a strong Alpha tell for a man.

The best gauge for determining a woman’s perception of you as either an Alpha or Beta type is examining yourself and your feeling a ‘need’ to mate guard her, to appease her, or an impulse to correct yourself in order to align with her terms for intimacy. A scarcity mentality is the mental point of origin for a Beta mindset – and that internalized mental model will manifest itself in a predisposition for Beta behaviors.

There’s a common belief that even the most Alpha of men will at times slip into a Beta behaviorism. You can’t be ‘on’ your game all of the time, and while that’s true it doesn’t invalidate that women have a mental model of your overall, predominant condition being either Alpha or Beta. A predominantly Alpha frame and mindset (and yes, looks), plus an acknowledged (real or perceived) SMV primacy will cover a multitude of Beta sins, but the predominant Beta has the sisyphean task of convincing a woman he’s more Alpha than she pegs him for.

So to answer the man asking whether or not something he did was Beta, your answer really lies in your motivation for behaving ‘Beta’ as you did in comparison to how a woman perceives your predominant character.

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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The One Reason
The One Reason
7 years ago

Stuttie:
“If she is the one initiating the PDA then she perceives you as Alpha and of high value.”

Or – depending on case – she’s blowing (a pun, yes) smoke in her providership locking phase to give an impression of him being the Great Catch and to convince herself of that too. Kind of beta orbiter cheek kiss and giggles. After all, she’s soo past those sculpted guys with foot-long dicks. Heh.

Sh*t. Already third comment in a loong time. Back to lurk.

Tim
Tim
7 years ago

“The fuck-buddy dynamic – all sexual interests with no reciprocal expectation of emotional investment – is a strong Alpha tell for a man.”

So … showing zero interest in longterm servitude is seen as alpha. This is why mgtow works. Telling a woman on a first date that you will never be married, never have kids and never live with a woman can get fantastic results. Sounds crazy? Try it.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

btw yes the verbally and emotionally and physically abusive wife-beater Dr. Phil is quite alpha. Women stand in line to service him and make sure he isn’t displeased.

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

Adam, interesting video. Whether he’s exhibiting alpha or beta is less important than that he is has established a solid foundation for effective dread game. His hot wife’s hypergamy has been stone-cold slammed down to the hard concrete and as long as there’s enough bux for the family, his marriage will last as long as HE wants it. An inordinate amount of pressure is on her to keep fit and to keep the sex flowing, otherwise, well, he makes it clear. Turn about is fair play. Few of us have the motivation (or interest) to take it to this degree,… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
7 years ago

Maybe another beta tell is:

“Does she demand to be in a one-way open relationship with you (where she sees other men, yet you are monogamous with her)?”

Interesting on the open hypergamy/cuckolding angle, came across by following a throwaway “gossipy” link to “celebs in open relationships” on the Blaze earlier today:

Megan Fox and Brian Austin Green: Megan Fox and Brian Austin Green have a half-open relationship. This means that Megan is free to date other men, while Brian must remain exclusive to Megan.

http://www.answers.com/article/1213217/9-celebs-you-never-knew-were-in-open-relationships?param4=tb-us-de-enter#slide=2

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

“Softek, that was brilliant”

Softek, please post on reddit so we can upvote this amazing exposition

thedeti
thedeti
7 years ago

The whole “beta tell” thing is important because one of the first things a man has to do when self-improving is to stop doing the things that drag down his value.

If a man notices a beta tell about himself, he needs to stop doing those things. Stopping beta behaviors is one of the first, and easiest, things he can do.

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

beta tell: gifts to you have little thought to them

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“Megan Fox and Brian Austin Green have a half-open relationship . . .”

Of all the things which hypergamy doesn’t care about, reciprocity is at the top of the list.

George
George
7 years ago

Nothing about women should be taken seriously. Any one of us, if we are reasonably fit and not deformed or obviously mentally ill, are capable of developing rewarding relationships with a number of women. There is no reason to get all nutted up. Many women can serve your needs and variety is the spice of life. Much of what Rollo writes is excellent in that he is able to disect and realistically illustrate the details and dynamics of what mostly is really nothing more than a “paper tiger”. The FI has control over you only to the extent that you… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

@adam man Michael in the video is “beta”. His life situation defines it. He maintained a nervous smile subjugating himself throughout the interview. Why would a 21 year old athletic and reasonably attractive male marry a woman ten years older than himself? He could have spent the last ten years of his life experiencing other women, learning and enjoying life a lot more. He openly admits he is not optimally attracted to his wife’s ass. Why the fuck did he marry her? He is now trapped by marriage and children at a time when he should be optimizing his opportunities.… Read more »

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

George, I get your point. He is a situational beta and there is nothing consequence-free to get him out of it. OTOH, he’s making the best of his bad situation by not buckling under to the expectations of Dr Phil and the rest of the feminine imperative. If / when she throws him over, he can hit the ground running…..

Zelcorpion
Zelcorpion
7 years ago

It is really funny to see the comments here regarding this Michael bodybuilder on Dr. Phil. Do you truly believe that he experiences right now in his life more Beta tells or more Alpha tells moments? The truth of the matter is that in the past many men in previous generations shifted from more Beta state as a youth to an Alpha state as they became fathers, more accomplished and more experienced. When they hit their end 20s or 30s they were different men than they were as an 18yo. Michael is one such blue-pill indoctrinated men who is obviously… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

True and if I were in his shoes, I would desperately want out. She is a scarecrow. Horrible for the kids though, regrets for the rest of life.

George
George
7 years ago

Just agreeing to appear on Dr. Phil-O-Shit is a massive beta tell.

Zelcorpion
Zelcorpion
7 years ago

Also one other note – we really have to differentiate here between Blue Pill Alphas, Red Pill Alphas or Red Pill Betas. Accepting the Red Pill does not make you Alpha by default, though you can more strongly work on it. I also knew as likely many of you too some Blue Pill situational Alphas who later in life due to constant indoctrination, marriage to a bitching wife and lack of success became Blue Pill Betas. Men can shift from one state to the other over decades quite naturally. Of course if you add the Red PIll consciousness to it,… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@ Joe and redlight

Thank you. I don’t know what reddit is and I don’t have an account on it, but if anyone wants to share it there for me, copy and paste away.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

I think we are agreeing that looking like an alpha is not an alpha tell. It is behavior that counts, specifically sex-differentiated intra-sexual behavior, specifically females treating the male as if he were an alpha, that makes him alpha. Question, though, somewhat personal. Is the ability to be a strong persuader an alpha tell? Or, is the necessity to be a strong persuader a beta tell? Does an alpha really need to persuade, to be good at persuading? My strong suit has always been verbal. I’m quite entertaining in person, believe it or not, so much so that I’m *expected*… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

re: “An Alpha Tell behavior from a woman doesn’t “make” a guy Alpha.”

Her consistent Alpha Tell behavior makes him Alpha to her. Consistent Alpha Tells from lots of women make him Alpha.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

A definite beta tell is a man trying to comfort women by saying he’s lost a lot of libido and doesn’t want as much sex anymore. He’d still prefer sex “maybe like once a week”, which is “more than I’m getting it”. And his wife is adamantly against even once a week, since he “knows better” than to raise the issue with her. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lesser/you-dont-have-to-have-sex-with-your-husband-every-night_b_6154168.html The life of betas is made a living hell by women, deliberately. Since the only reason betas put up with it is the promise of sex, as soon as the promise of sex is withdrawn the… Read more »

Tinder Master
Tinder Master
7 years ago

“I think we are agreeing that looking like an alpha is not an alpha tell. It is behavior that counts, specifically sex-differentiated intra-sexual behavior, specifically females treating the male as if he were an alpha, that makes him alpha.” I don’t think so. I believe that behavior can seal the deal but where most of the importance lies is in the look. This is because looks not only get you in the door but they also widen your initial mating/dating pool. This is truer for the younger crowd. Girls respond the same way to a tall, handsome guy, as a… Read more »

George
George
7 years ago

Cannot tell for sure. The staged performance proves nothing. However, that masquerade could be affective….

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Women are broken machines, and easily deceived. From the “Perceptions” post: “It’s a scary thought to consider how easy it is to sway the hearts and minds of most women simply with imagery over substance.” re: fake celebrity prank. Yes, he’s alpha exactly to the extent that women are treating him like he’s alpha: to the extent that women want to be pleasing to him. Some of the women do seem to carefully watch him and try to do what he (and his entourage) wants to do. But at least several of the women, for example, aren’t taking pictures of… Read more »

bbb
bbb
7 years ago

Situational alpha, fleeting at best. Funny as a prank, pathetic otherwise. The gullibility of the bystanders is breathtaking. Perhaps analogous to, albeit more effective than, a PUA wanna-be spouting random memorized pick up lines.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

hot off the press

Gallup GG Jr, Ampel BC, Wedberg N, Pogosjan A. 2014.Do orgasms give women feedback about mate choice? Evol Psychol 12(5):958-978.
http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP12958978.pdf

According to self-ratings by college girls in “committed relationships”, sluttier girls who have had a lot of sexual partners have better orgasms. Also, girls who snagged a raised-rich, attractive, and broad-shouldered (main …) boyfriend have better orgasms. Girls also lie about initiating sex with entertaining men.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ deti Beta tells: Her emotional state governs his emotional state and the overall tenor and course of the relationship. He is consistently attempting to discern her emotional state. When she is in a “bad” emotional state, he consistently attempts to corral and redirect her into a “good” emotional state. First one, I agree. 2nd one, it depends. If he is a machiavel, then it is alpha. If he seeks to supplicate, then he is beta. Third one, again, it depends. If he seeks to corral and make her happy by adopting her frame, then he is beta. If he… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

A definite beta tell: believing women when they say they initiate sex with men who are amusing.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

re: sperm competition article. Believable hypothesis, but the r-squareds are awful. If I’m reading correctly, the blobby scatter of Figure 1 has R2 = .072,and Fig 2 has R2 = .119.

Changed_Man
Changed_Man
7 years ago

@Softek nailed it. At its core, the red pill is about owning your shit, self improvement, and frame.

If you want a definition for ‘alpha’, you don’t have to look any further than Frame.

Zelcorpion
Zelcorpion
7 years ago

Funny example with the fake celebrity situational Alpha status. In my opinion – though we comply the Alpha state only in the inter-sexual viewpoint – there are 4 major points of Alpha – and all have to be checked: 1. Being Alpha in his dealings with men (many guys manage that not being doormats or complete wallflowers) 2. Being Alpha in job – again quite a few successful guys manage that 3. Being Alpha in short-term mating – here sometimes having very good looks, fame or local higher status is sufficient to get laid 100 times more than the best… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Women don’t bother faking with betas because women don’t care how betas feel; women fake orgasms in order to please men, to try to kep the man around.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

” A woman’s capacity for orgasm depends not on her partner’s sexual skill but on her subconscious evaluation of his genetic merits.”

Beta Tell:

When a man jumps through hoops to make women orgasm so that he can fool himself into believing he is Alpha.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

Having said that, it is also possible that skill at making a woman orgasm might affect her brain into seeing a man as more alpha (sexually desirable) than she would otherwise. There is a phenomenon in psychology where engaging in behaviors associated with a mental state tends to elicit that mental state. The brain prefers congruency.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

From:
Do Orgasms Give Women Feedback About Mate Choice?

“Their partner’s sense of humor not only predicted
his self-confidence and family income, but it also predicted women’s propensity to initiate sex, how often they had sex, and it enhanced their orgasm frequency in comparison with other partners.”

Sounds like another data point contradicting Siirtyrion’s thesis that a man’s behavior has no influence on how sexually attractive a woman finds him.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@jacklabear re: “it is also possible that skill at making a woman orgasm might affect her brain into seeing a man as more alpha (sexually desirable) than she would otherwise. There is a phenomenon in psychology where engaging in behaviors associated with a mental state tends to elicit that mental state.” The Pavlovian phenomenon included. I’m certain when my wife thinks of sex she *ought* to think of me, but I’m certain when my wife thinks of me she doesn’t think of sex. Moreover, since sex is a service I do for her instead of her doing for me, a… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

I’ve long disagreed with your idea that mate guarding is the exclusive domain of betas. And now you seem to be saying that all men who women treat as alphas restrict themselves to fuck buddy relationships. A man who his woman treats as alpha, according to all your tells listed above, can also benefit himself and his long term relationship, by mate guarding. Men in such situations routinely do. We just need to glance around us for endless examples of this. My own life is a reflection of this; many of my girlfriends offer blowjobs in taxicabs and treat me… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

And we can look to alpha primates as examples. Does the alpha troupe leader ape mate guard? Yes, ferociously.

Do the women fuck him more for successfully mate guarding? Yes.

Mate guarding is not only required of his job position, in itself it helps to create that very job position.

George
George
7 years ago

@xsplat

Excellent comment. True, any man who thinks he is “so alpha” he doesn’t need to mate guard is fooling no one but himself. Such thoughts are the hopes of beta fantasy.

xsplat
7 years ago

I few months ago an aquaintance of a friend invited me to join the local group of expats on the monthly hash house harrier mountain hike. His girlfriend picked me up for the drive. During the afterparty his girlfriend kept hanging out by my side, flirting with me. She’d put peanuts in my shirt pocket and accidentally stimulate my nipples while looking me in the eyes. She invited me to stay the night at the mountain cabin they rented. I later found out her boyfriend and a few other women would be there. At one point in the early evening… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

And recently you were saying or implying that working to overcome last minute resistance was also a sign that the man isn’t alpha enough, because a real alpha would have such a powerful voodoo sex ray emanating from his aura that the women wouldn’t put up any resistance to begin with. That’s again a conflation of notions. A mans alphatude is also expressed through his charisma and charm. His dominance and will. A man who knows what he wants and knows how to get it is displaying an alpha attitude that in itself will get the woman wet and turned… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

Also the picture you have lately been painting of alpha fucks beta bucks has had the contrast turned up to 100, and you seem to have lost track of all the nuance.

A man who women treat as alpha according to all your correct tells can and very often does use all means possible to maintain his position.

Some of those Machiavellian means include controlling finances. Women love opportunistically. Being the best opportunity in all ways, including financial, helps to create love in his woman.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ Tinder the Troll

I believe that behavior can seal the deal but where most of the importance lies is in the look.

Codswallop. Women respond primarily to confidence. Looks may attract initially, but confidence is where it’s at. My nephew is far better looking than I am, but he’s beta and was worried about me dancing with his wife.

Tinder favors looks, but even on Tinder confidence can show thru.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ Rollo

Women fake orgasm to divert a partner’s attention from their infidelities.

Why? I don’t understand this.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ xplat

If a woman mate-guards herself in order to commit to you, then you’re alpha. If you have to spend a lot of energy mate-guarding, then you’re beta.

Badpainter
7 years ago

If women fake orgasm to retain Alphas isn’t also likely they’d fake orgasm to secure a Beta during the ephiphany phase?

stuttie
7 years ago

@ xsplat – have to agree with theasdgamer on mate-guarding. I honestly can’t see how any form of mate-guarding comes across as anything other than beta. Silverback gorillas have a male hierarchy where the female initiates the mating with the dominant Silverback (Alpha). The females actually compete for mating opportunities. He rarely, if ever, mate-guards the females.

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

Alpha/beta becomes such a conceptual problem because it performs as some type of Rorschach test in which men see and project onto it what they want to. While I understand the need for the concept in order to discuss red pill ideas, I just don’t think its very useful in this context of finding out where you stand. The fact of the matter is if you use womens reactions to you and their behaviors as a measure of your value, you will, eventually, become dependent on their estimation. I get that that is not what we’re trying to use the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“I am becoming more and more convinced that the best way is alpha up is by not aiming for it directly. Very much like happiness, which has been proven to be elusive for people searching directly for it, but comes more as a result of focusing on things other than happiness for it to materialize.”

Interviewer: Are you happy?
G.B. Shaw: (pause) I don’t know. I’ve never thought about it. I’ve been too busy doing what I want to do.

xsplat
7 years ago

And I keep on hearing this concept, over and over and everywhere, that to an alpha women are fungible. That is such an adolescent conception of relationships! Not adolescent in that it’s so blue pill, or so beta, so so adolescent as a red pill conception. Is your dog fungible? If you train up a dog from a puppy, would you just let some interloper come in and woo it away, and if it left shrug it off with “oh, she was just a bitch anyway and didn’t deserve me”? No. We not only have real emotional investments in our… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

@Hobbes. I think I understand what you mean by not giving power over to women to decide if we are alpha or beta or whatnot. And I like and share your pragmatic approach. Define our goals and how to get them. If our goal is to have the women we desire also desire us and offer us sex, then we need to know what actions that are under our control will affect that behavior from them. And so regardless, yes, it comes down to improving our quality of life through getting certain reactions out of women. Our lives are intertwined… Read more »

Wanderer
Wanderer
7 years ago

I just read the PsychologyToday article Rollo posted in the comments. Fascinating. It confirms AFBB. But it would seem to completely ignore male behavior (Game) in affecting arousal (female orgasm). It asserts that a woman’s arousal is strictly caused by a man’s genetic material as shown in his symmetry. Game, from my own experience, obviously has a strong influence on how sexual a woman will be with a man. While I do not want to contradict this study, I know that looks are not the only factor that matters with women sexually. Looks help tremendously… but so does Game. I… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

I’m not aware of many bloggers who actively date and have LTRs. There are married guys, and puas who deliberately limit their flings to a few days, but are there other bloggers out there who talk from personal experience when it comes to things like escalation in the bedroom, and who also lead those escalations into sustainable and loving long term relationships? It is inescapable that we all must relate everything back to personal experience. And a person’s position and lifestyle will inform that experience. And it is extremely difficult not to be solipsistic about it and judge very different… Read more »

LiveFearless
7 years ago

A Beta Tell that needs .

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ stuttie If she is the one initiating the PDA then she perceives you as Alpha and of high value. When we have finished a dance, Mrs. Gamer will frequently cup my butt briefly. Recently, a woman was showing me IOI’s and I was flirting with her. Mrs. Gamer sat down next to me and leaned on my leg while talking with the woman. Otoh, there are occasions where mateguarding is required and the mate will signal her need for help, such as when another alpha makes a move. In those cases, mateguarding is alpha. Unicorns will mateguard themselves. Why… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

Hobbes puts the onus on the correct one: “her inability to please me becomes HER failure”.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

I keep failing to see why there is resistance to the utter simplicity of defining a beta by him serving women, and defining an alpha by women serving him. Beta is when the man has to perform, alpha is when the women have to perform. re: “Escalation in the face of what appears to the novice as resistance is a HUGE part of what makes the man attractive.” Yes, but almost everything that a man HAS TO DO (whether or not it is considered “the man’s job”) is beta. Beta is very masculine, btw. It is alpha when it is… Read more »

New Yorker
New Yorker
7 years ago

A unicorn is a woman with good fundamentals whom you shape through exacting standards of behavior for yourself and everyone around you. SMV advantages, game, etc. Are still essential. With a different man, she becomes just another harpy.

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

“No woman is replaceable”

I agree that is a beta tell

xsplat
7 years ago

jjf12, to what purpose or use is your definition? If the woman does all the work, then the man is more alpha. Even if that were true, so what? It is of negative value to conceive of that definition. The pragmatic usefullness of talking about alpha actions is to get something. We need to talk about how to get it. Talking about if the means to the end is alpha or not will get in the way of getting that something. Do we want a woman who is way out of our league who we greatly desire to treat us… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

And I’m also starting to sniff a very defeatist attitude in this whole endeavor. A classist pidgeon holing. Oh, I’m a beta, and my wife doesn’t really desire me. Oh, he’s an alpha because THAT woman in THAT situation treats him with deference and sexual hunger. The whole point of these discussions is not classify. That’s pointless. Totally pointless. The point is to get what we want. There is enormous potential SMV fluidity. There is a HOW to increase attraction. Many hows. Many of the ways are not looks related or money related. Many are. Many are not dependent on… Read more »

agent p
agent p
7 years ago

I must admit when I read Rollo’s post I was concerned that I would being racking up a bunch of Beta points. Lately I have been having a bad run and am not on my game in it’s totality. My focus has been my business and just keeping things solvent and intact. A by-product of taking big risks is big potential down sides and so it is in business, I must perform all the time. This has sapped my confidence and energy levels and in turn this has been reflected into home life somewhat. So knowing that I was not… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@xsplat re: defeatist. It is not defeatist nor merely classificationist pigeon-holing to point out to a beta who thinks he has to massage his wife’s back for half an hour before she will have sex that that is indeed beta behavior. Being a beta, I’ll be the first one to say that beta behavior IS what works for betas. That’s the only reason betas do it. The only reason a beta monkey brings bananas and grooms his female is because that is what works for him and gets him what he wants. Thus I cannot agree with “Anything that works… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@xsplat re: what works. From one of the Haselton papers linked by Rollo:
“More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.”

When “what works” for betas is so COMPLETELY different from “what works” for alphas, then classifying behaviors IS what matters.

New Yorker
New Yorker
7 years ago

Beta is what one makes himself when he does not have the courage to live proactively and accept the risks of life. No such thing as something “working for a beta”. That is the whole point of the manosphere. Beta is the samet thing as cheating yourself of a full life on your terms.

sfcton
7 years ago

a lot of comments here seem to really but a max capacity for masculinity; its like they cannot fully envision a bolder more joyful more masculine life

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

More insight into the manipulable mess that is a woman’s mind. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/serena-piper/i-found-love-in-a-tinder-place_b_6149766.html Self-described bored girl decides to investigate what she knows is a hookup app, supposedly to not hookup. But she did get hooked, because Tinder kept showing her hot frat guys, “just what I had expected”, evidently making her unable to “resist the curiosity of just who I might find”. “I found too much entertainment in seeing who in my town was using this appearance-based app.” Finally working through her choice paralysis, she *bravely* (hee hee) decided to give one of the good looking guys the chance with her… Read more »

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@sfcton re: masculinity capacity.

The Ladder Theory fits here. Guys on the beta ladder can “be all they can be” and be the best beta possible, but it doesn’t get them onto the alpha ladder.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

I’d be curious to see some other guy’s responses to Rollo’s original bulleted list of questions. I think I’m the only one so far to list my responses..

xsplat
7 years ago

@Jf12, a back-rub doesn’t work. Whatever works works. If it doesn’t work, then it doesn’t work. Yes, we need to know generally what are beta behaviors. But if the “beta” behaviors make her treat you more like an alpha and increase attraction and cause more doting and submissiveness and better sex, then they are not beta behaviors. Beta behaviors don’t work. So yes, whatever works works, and nothing that works is beta. It’s tautological. For instance mate guarding works. I know that from personal factual real life lived experience. So does escalation past a womans stated boundaries. Neither is beta.… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

Oh, and actually even backrubs in moderation can be a great display of higher value. It’s a rare and valuable talent.

But of course she should be attending more to the man the he her.

It’s like saying “I love you”. Not only is that perfectly acceptable, but it’s valuable and important. It’s just that she should say it at least 3 times as often.

xsplat
7 years ago

“The Ladder Theory fits here. Guys on the beta ladder can “be all they can be” and be the best beta possible, but it doesn’t get them onto the alpha ladder.”

There’s your defeatist defininition based classist non-fuid smv attitude right there.

We have very different views about how fluid is a mans SMV.

xsplat
7 years ago

And the Hazelton papers are broadly accurate but completely neglect non-looks based value that men can have.

There are plenty of ugly alphas. Some through fame, other through wealth, others through charisma.

You vastly underestimate the effect of non-physical attributes on pure raw attraction and also on gaining pure devoted sexual and physical lust and love.

xsplat
7 years ago

@wanderer “But it would seem to completely ignore male behavior (Game) in affecting arousal (female orgasm). ” Ya, I’m short, ugly and balding. My face is way out of wack – no symmetry to be found in it. But I have a long history of making girls come who never had any orgasm before. Even those who had many partners. As an ugly man I can say with authority that looks matter a LOT. But I can also say with authority that it’s nowhere near the whole story. Even an ugly short man can date very hot women – and… Read more »

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

“I’d be curious to see some other guy’s responses to Rollo’s original bulleted list of questions. I think I’m the only one so far to list my responses”

I didn’t reply as my answers were all no but the first bullet is tricky. We established she would mostly initiate, and then the more beta I was the less she would initiate, and more alpha resulted in endless initiating by her

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ xplat

For instance mate guarding works. I know that from personal factual real life lived experience.

So, you know for certain that you’ve never been cheated on?

Lol, alpha is when a 9 (38 D cup) rubs her tits on you all the time when you’re dancing with her and you just ignore her flirtations and smile knowingly. Alpha is maintaining your frame. If you have taken vows, then keeping them is part of that frame. So, alpha can be keeping vows.

Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
7 years ago

@ Rollo

“Is this guy Alpha?”

Yes. While he’s being treated as an Alpha he is an Alpha. There is no eternal, pure, Platonic form of Alphaness. Alpha is relative.

Man is the measure of all things.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ agent p

Mate guarding. Hmmm, is not the best Alpha style mate guarding simply leaning into your mates flirtations with another man and saying, “Good luck with that one buddy, she’s all yours”.?

Best response is to simply observe for a bit with an amused mastery smile, then walk away. If she’s into you, she will eventually cut off the flirtation.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ New Yorker

A unicorn is a woman with good fundamentals whom you shape through exacting standards of behavior for yourself and everyone around you. SMV advantages, game, etc. Are still essential. With a different man, she becomes just another harpy.

I don’t know how much “shaping” I’ve been doing other than running continual Soft Dread, but Mrs. Gamer is very much a pink unicorn. She mate-guards herself without any guidance from me, works out, tries to please me, tries to look good for me, etc.

Badpainter
7 years ago

exsplat –

“No woman is replaceable”

Everyone and everything is replaceable.

“And I’m here to tell people that some things classified as beta can actually be super-power strengths.”

Context matters.

The value of knowing the general description and character of Alpha and Beta tells is in allowing the individual man to quickly and accurately ascertain his current standing and hopefully provide useful information that will allow him to adjust behavior to achieve the desired outcome.

Water Cannon Boy
Water Cannon Boy
7 years ago

Lint November 12th, 2014 at 1:10 pm “I have very few comments and receive no email contact regarding how offensive my content is to women’s sensibilities.” That’s because most women who read your blog are too appalled to comment on its content, plus they have seen how nastily you treat women and men who dare to say something unfavorable. Don’t flatter yourself believing that you are somehow an exception from the virulent misogyny and hideous idiocy of TRP. Laughed at this because I saw the enormous responses to the post on Return Of Kings about women with tattoos and piercings… Read more »

New Yorker
New Yorker
7 years ago

@ads gamer

Shaping is nothing more than using your perceived advantage in SMV/confidence to lay down clear behavioral standards. It can be done very positively and a normal woman will gladly respond to it. Congrats on what looks like a very compatible partner.

jf12
jf12
7 years ago

@Badpainter, re: context.

In ANY context, my super-powers of being beta make me more beta. My super-powers of servicing my woman make me a super-servicer i.e. a super beta.

xsplat
7 years ago

@water canon boy – great comment. Yes, mate guarding is not necessarily beta – we completely agree. Yes, primates as well as most species where the female mates with the top dude mate guard. As do alpha humans. Agreed. And therefore making blanket statements about mateguarding being a beta tell can not only be misleading, but can be detrimental to a man who wants to get his woman to treat him in the best way possible. Because done properly mate guarding can be very affective in increasing attraction and having the woman treat the man as her genuine alpha. I… Read more »

Badpainter
7 years ago

jf12 – “In ANY context, my super-powers of being beta make me more beta.” That must be frustrating. In the Betas serve women, women serve Alphas model I’ve been on both ends without understanding the context. Many missed/fumbled opportunities where voluntary service displays on the part of women were read as them simply being nice, and nothing else. Often I’ve turned down unsolicited offers of assistance from women. I’ve also never had any problem getting favors from women, or getting them to respond to orders. No “please” required. However, my programming prevented me from ever taking advantage of those situations… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

@badpainter “provide useful information that will allow him to adjust behavior to achieve the desired outcome.”

The useful information is not:
1) don’t mateguard

nor

2) don’t escalate when there is resistance.

George
George
7 years ago

xsplat, Accumulating your comments, one begins to suspect you feel threatened by the alpha-beta dynamic as it is illustrated by Tomassi. Tomassi’s illustration is not wrong. Although it may be misinterpreted. It is not necessary to describe the massive polethera of possible nuances to make a point, and any such attempt would drown the point. The concept being explained would be lost. Maybe this is why Tomassi doesn’t bother with all the inconsequential “if-this-and-or-else-but-oh-maybe-by-the-way-also” superfluous tweaks. He sticks to basic fundamental dynamics. Like it or not, his observations are very consistent with reality. I agree with you that even alpha… Read more »

Badpainter
7 years ago

xsplat,

I don’t disagree.

But there are times when resistance means walk away, and forms of mate guarding that don’t work.

I think mate guarding, to be effective, has to be from the frame of defending one’s prerogatives, not from a frame defensive possession. Or to put it another way messaging is about demanding respect for your boundaries and thus for yourself. A mate poacher is disrespecting you, and that is greater affront than trying to fuck your woman.

xsplat
7 years ago

@George. I’m surprised you didn’t acuse me of having a small penis too.

Rollo’s is one of my favorite blogs. I’ve been quoting him on my own blog for years, and he links to my blog in the sidebar.

I have enormous respect for his work.

But everybody is wrong about some things some times.

This is one of those times.

Badpainter
7 years ago

George – “A preoccupation with mate guarding is most definitely a beta tell and regardless of what you claim no woman is turned on by such insecurity.”

This.

It’s the insecurity that manifests in the displays that are being called out as a Beta Tell.

xsplat
7 years ago

@badpainter, yes, a guy can mateguard improperly. And yes, a guy can mateguard properly. It’s the same with saying anything to a woman. You can say “Hi”, and either raise or lower attraction, just according to your tone of voice and body language. The message is only very partially conveyed in the words. It’s similar with mate guarding. Or even with disciplining children. For some children all that is required is the gentlest of direction. Others respond only to harsher measures. Is the REAL alpha the one who never spanks? NO! The real alpha is the one who gets the… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

Oh good god. If I call out bullshit it means I’m full of bullshit. If I point out an error that harms other men it’s because I’m insecure.

Uh huh. Way to logic. That’s waterproof!

xsplat
7 years ago

You know, I’ve been through this same song and dance on the old Heartiste forum – right about the time it was suspected that authorship changed.

I called him out on his bullshit about over-emphasis of confidence as the sole and primary determination of all that is alpha-attractive.

Many of the commenters there also were very loyal to ALL of heartistes ideas at the time.

Nowadays my notions are generally the accepted ones, and his are generally seen as extreme and wrong.

This is not a religion people. Dissent is not only allowed, it is helpful.

George
George
7 years ago

xsplat,

“escalate when there is resistance”…..

Desire is unmistakable and there is no resistance to negotiate.

xsplat
7 years ago

“Desire is unmistakable and there is no resistance to negotiate.”

Science says otherwise. It has been shown that women get aroused by a mans insistant arousal. Even when she is initially not attracted to him.

xsplat
7 years ago

I have to wonder which commenters are actively dating, or have experience with successfully dating. I can give example after example of when the pivotal moment which spiked attraction and devotion for me long term was an instance of mate guarding. I can and I have. Some of the situations were rather ugly. Women are well known for recounting stories of how after being physically hit in an instance of mate guarding that THAT is the moment they truly fell for their man. There are even songs about it. “He hit me, and it felt like a kiss” This is… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“Desire is unmistakable and there is no resistance to negotiate.”

Whatever you do, don’t throw me in the briar patch.

George
George
7 years ago

xsplat, Rollo has his blog. You have yours. There is nothing wrong with expressing your views anywhere. However, you are wasting your energy getting upset when some of us do not agree with you 100%. You stated “This is not a religion people. Dissent is not only allowed, it is helpful.” Yet with religious fervor you apparently do not allow people to dissent from your views. Furthermore you stated that you had “been through the same song and dance on Heartise”. How many other bloggers views do yours disagree with? Everyone has a right to his personal opinions and interpretations… Read more »

xsplat
7 years ago

Ok, George, so I should shut up and let harmful views disseminate as the predominant meme?

Maybe I should have done the same years back on Heartistes blog?

Or on the Rooshvforum?

No thanks. I have a sense of duty to my fellow men.

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