Malice and Forethought

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After the engaging conversation in this week’s comment thread, there’s something I’ve been contemplating and I think it might make for a good weekend discussion.

With regard to this new comfort women have with open Hypergamy now, proudly laying bare their Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks sexual strategy, to the degree that advertising agencies are making blatant commercials about it, I’m starting to think that women hold (or are progressively developing) a subconscious level resentment for those men who would willingly accept her intimately in spite of that foreknowledge.

I realize this reads like a “well, duh Rollo” moment, and I get that a deductive, lesser respect for a Beta man impulse resides in women, but what I’m considering here is this lesser respect in a new, open Hypergamy social context. Whereas before a Beta man might be excused for his ignorance of women’s sexual pluralism (AF/BB) due to women’s secrecy or marginalizing it, now women discover that the Beta men they need to consolidate on in the long term are such hopeless romantics and so sexually optionless that they’ll willfully ignore that open Hypergamy and accept them intimately in spite of it.

It’s an interesting conflict; on one hand the urgency of consolidating on a long term prospect leads her to the Epiphany Phase rationalizations for wanting to do things ‘the right way’ with the Beta provider, but on the other hand, there’s the fact that he accepts his pro-active cuckolding with full knowledge of not just her own prior Alpha ‘indiscretions’, but open Hypergamy on whole.

She needs the guy for provisioning and parental investment impulses, but now the buffer of convincing herself that this Nice guy is simply naive to how Hypergamy functions is gone, thus leaving her more resentful that the type of man she at least figuratively would spend her life with is this pathetic.

Commenter, salemsuwareh had an excellent observation from the last post  that I didn’t want to be lost in the pile:

 I just went to HUS’s article and the explanations given by the women and white knights there actually impressed me because they conveniently demonstrate so many things:

– The most important point is that the whole scenario is defined by the feminine imperative, this point really overrides and defines all others. It’s a form of thought control. If you define what was, what is and what could be according to your imperative then you can make yourself look right. It’s like a way more sophisticated version of 1984’s thought control.

– Women keep chiming in with their stories of how they too enjoy more attention from the other sex now that they’ve fixed some aspect of themselves (and they’ll try to clutch at Stephan doing the same thing to support their argument). What they don’t mention is the difference in SMV between men and women. Women START OUT being arousing to men and go downhill from there. A woman who made herself look better would’ve had at least as much attention when she was younger if she weren’t ugly then.

– Stephan describes himself as not having changed but the women say that is what he has. They are literally conjuring up the idea that Stephan is now more alpha out of thin air.

– They accuse men of doing the same thing women are doing if they can’t make a point or they accuse men of starting it. For example they say MEN who perpetuate the “beta bux” myth. In the next sentence, Susan says that only one of beta bux or post-wall women overestimating their SMV can be true, which coming from her can only be a case of willing, studied ignorance. She’s trying to take pieces out of Rollo’s words and put them against each other but she’s changing the context that the words were made for in the first place, for example – her comparison is false because post-wall women are DEFINED BY (other than visible outer signs ie. fading looks) a realisation that their SMV is under fire, that doesn’t put that in opposition to beta bux, it supports it. By now I’m thinking women have a natural talent for projection and rationalization.

– Men who fear being single like women do are beta men. They are so because a man with options by definition cannot fear being single, since he has options. If you’ve never had any success with women and you’re a plugged-in blue pill, of course you will fear being single! the leaps and haphazard logic she’s making here are just astounding, and that’s before I even begin talking about what she’s implying by saying/implying that men and women have the same problems.

– Susan is selecting the cases that support her point. The two ugly ducklings who find each other at age 28 and live happily ever after.

– Susan talks as if women have no idea what they’re doing with men. If epiphany-phase women are giving signs of being hooked on you, they must genuinely want to fuck you! because women are warm, fuzzy creatures and would never do something like try to push someone’s buttons to get what they want.

– It’s made out like Stephan can turn into a winner if he takes one of these leftover women, or rather that he already IS one because they want him now. They’re trying to prop up his ego to get him to go along with their imperative. Don’t worry Stephan, these girls finally understand that the person they really felt their tingles for was you all along! they were just confused by biker-Rob with the skull tattoo, but I’m all yours now baby.

Overall It’s pretty cool to see the three female weapons as I see them – the anointed trinity of Female Imperative, Rationalization and Projection – in action. They do it so well that you wouldn’t see it for what it is unless you’re familiar with something like Rollo’s blog, which is what’s going on with most men. Unfortunately for these women we have a failsafe, which is to observe what choices women make instead of listening to why they themselves say they make them (assuming she’s a rare woman who holds herself accountable for her own choices, that is).

The problem with convincing Stephan he’s on the right path (of Beta assimilation) is that this feminine-primary advice mistakenly presumes an old order, closed-Hypergamy social paradigm. The ladies at HUS presume Stephan is ignorant of this new-order open Hypergamy (or just initially questioning it), and as with women of their age, they cling to the idea that they can put the Hypergamy genie back in the bottle, reapply his Beta blinders, and thus re-prepare him for a 27-30 year old woman necessitous of his provisioning potential.

This is where their resentment stems from. Any man with the visceral knowledge of women’s dualistic sexual strategy who would still pardon their own participation in it is a man even less respectable than the forgivable Beta without that foreknowledge.

He’s a guy who Just Gets It, yet is so pathetically optionless he willingly chooses to participate in it, since to him the prospect of being manipulated is preferable to the threat of perpetual loneliness; which is the very same threat these women level at him in their advice.

The ‘better’ Beta they think can be built isn’t ego-satisfyingly believable if he’s already aware of and participates in the schadenfreude they have for him.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Zelcorpion
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I am observing a new phenomenon of young guys being accepting of their girlfriends shagging other guys. Some of them are wealthy Betas who simply state that they can equally attract women and it is some kind of open relationship. With other young guys they are usually good-looking slackers, who let their girlfriends do porn or fuck the occasional sugar-daddy. The girl gets the emotional support from her boyfriend while indulging in Alpha fucking. I don’t know whether the feminine imperative is starting to succeed at breeding willing Beta cuckold-men who are seemingly “getting aroused” by their girlfriends sport-fucking the… Read more »

jf12
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Ooh. Maybe related, maybe not, Mayo took pictures of Molly in her underwear in order to convince the guys that she was worth ogling.

jf12
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The only way to continually prop up women’s SMV is to artificially lower men’s SMV.

orion
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I remember that at 20 +- a girl told me “well, girls might not like you now, but when the time comes that they want a RELATIONSHIP….”…..

Serial pedestalizer that I was, I remember answering “And why would I want those disposed of cumrags then?”

“Abgelegte Fickfetzen” in German.

I cannot… I really am at a loss…. I mean I was fucking pathethic, yes, but even then I knew that this was a rotten deal.

I did not even have to think about it, that was a sheer gut reaction.

Those men openly embracing this are broken like Dacian catamites.

The Ronin
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Anymore I drop bombs on hamster conversations of female behavior, such as, “So, she’s 33, got kids by three different guys, lives with her parents and you’re listening to her advice?” I shake my head, laugh and walk away….The reaction is often priceless, even White knights catch themselves shaking their heads in agreement until they catch a dirty look from one of the women…But the seed has been planted…..

Ang Aamer
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Perhaps this is similar to the concept of a cuckold. (temporal cuckold?) The hamster addled pre-wall woman who was hot just a few years prior now settles. But the Beta that provides the Beta Bux must “know” about the her pre epiphany options… So therefore a good Beta Bux husbank who cheerfully accepts that he will always be a cuck to her 5 min of alpha is looked down on. So once again this is a manifestation of female duplicity. These harlots _know_ that the stephens should dump them for younger and hotter with less mileage. It may be a… Read more »

dcllcd
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I got a text from my friend, not too long ago, that (I just realized) was an example of Open Hypergamy. Shared it in this post http://dcllive.wordpress.com/2014/09/18/the-tasmanian-devil-effect/ “K says your stock with females has risen, you are now at nine special needs clients as compared to….Line cook.” I have made self-improvement a priority within the last year. If I had known that’s all it took (plus some game), I would of started a long time ago. Don’t become a better built beta. Become a self made man. (NOTE – Rollo, I hope you don’t mind the recent linking to my… Read more »

bbb
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A man’s choices are to either “alpha up” and spin plates, pay escorts for GF experiences, or search out a non-Westernized woman with ongoing (not born again) traditional values, who understands the duties of wives and husbands, such as fidelity, respect, actual commitment, etc. The latter women are rare when young and non-existent when old. With the ubiquity of the internet, this will only get worse. Most men will fail – repeatedly. Failure means locked into a marriage where children and financials dictate behavior, where sex is an IV drip at best, and where everything can be wisked away at… Read more »

S
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Great post Rollo. So depressing yet enlightening at the same time. A married man wishing to avoid divorce rape must sometimes appear to accept this open hypergamy, which may in fact dig him a deeper hole. However after fully digesting the red pill it becomes clear that the married man’s plight is simply one of cutting the emotional cord to his wife and figuring out how to extract what ever value he can from the transaction. Married men who have their “red pill epiphany” after their marriage are in a unique situation. Divorce becomes an emotional reaction to their wives’… Read more »

walawala
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@Rollo have you been following this “controversy” over Julien from RSD being harassed by white knights and feminists for her seminars. The level of violence by the so-called anti-violence protesters is ironic. In the news story you’ll also note that one of the feminist protesters picketing Julien’s game seminar in Australia hits one of the guys attending or challenging her. That is not challenged, but a bunch of guys attending a seminar is seen as “hateful” towards women. This whole episode is exactly what we discuss here: the shaming of men by feminists for being masculine. Check out the photo… Read more »

Badpainter
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Open hypergamy might be the last straw.

If this is the new reality I see no way anyone can claim women are capable of love either by blue or red pill understanding.

Betas are an absolute necessity to fulfill the epiphany phase, the only reason Betas go along is the lie that they are, if they do things right, the last man in her life. Really they are just the next host for a parasite. The odds that from time to time the parasite is symbiotic aren’t great enough to allow a Beta’s suspension of disbelief to overcome “moments of clarity.”

lepillrouge
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One thing I’d recommend (as a former extreme blue pill beta), is to abandon where possible the folks who used to know you. I don’t mean going overseas, necessarily, but find a new social scene. ‘Cuz once a chick sees you as beta, that’s all you’ll ever be to her, and she will treat your poorly right off the bat. If you think you can change her opinion of you, or that she’s worth correcting her error, you’re still blue pill. In my own life, my alpha skill is karaoke, Normally that’s a #5 skill (after ballroom/swing/salsa dancing in some… Read more »

Bango Tango
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I don’t know whether the feminine imperative is starting to succeed at breeding willing Beta cuckold-men who are seemingly “getting aroused” by their girlfriends sport-fucking the various Alphas.

This is the norm now. As the female imperative grows stronger so does the R selection environment. Men have no choice but to adapt just to stay in the breeding game. Being aroused by his girlfriend getting screwed by other guys seems to be an outgrowth of that environment. An evolutionary adaptation on the extreme end of the spectrum. It really indicates the pair bonding relationship is severely damaged.

Hobbes
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This brings something to mind that makes me a little embarrassed to admit.. but in the sake of science… When I first became RP aware, I was still on the fence and started dating a woman in her mid 30s. My habits were (and still kind of are, damn it) to behave in a BP manner. Even though, at the time I was RP aware I chose to ignore it all – or at least the parts that were difficult to swallow in the hope that RP was wrong, or that she was different. Anyway, at one point- I forget… Read more »

Hobbes
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@zelcorpiion and Bango Tango
Yup. I’ve been noticing the same thing.. Guys actively enjoying their wives and gfs cuckoldery and even fantasizing about it.
A real good friend of mine recently admitted that he watches gang bang videos all the time because its what turns him on- a woman slathered in cock and cum. I wonder if cuckold porn and GB videos are becoming more popular, and In wonder if porn- the act of watching other men fuck women you desire- is having a psychological effect on men.
It’s absolutely crazy.

Bango Tango
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A man’s choices are to either “alpha up” and spin plates, pay escorts for GF experiences, or search out a non-Westernized woman with ongoing (not born again) traditional values, who understands the duties of wives and husbands, such as fidelity, respect, actual commitment, etc. The latter women are rare when young and non-existent when old. With the ubiquity of the internet, this will only get worse. Most men will fail – repeatedly. Agreed. The alpha up and spin plates will be almost impossible for a great many men. The government assisted female imperative is making sure that prostitutes are not… Read more »

orion
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@hobbes

“I almost felt like she was trying to push me into alpha behavior. It’s like she really was attracted to me, and wanted me to be the alpha she saw in me.
After that relationship ended I looked back on my past and I had the idea that more than a few women had done exactly that. This kind of push, a desire, for you to “get it”.”

No, I know that feeling.

I also know what the look on their faces was: Dissapointment.

Bango Tango
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To this day it happens to me sometimes when I slip in BP behavior. I get a quizzical look from women, as if they expected me to be alpha and were confused by my sudden beta “tell”. It may be particular to me, I don’t know. I do know many people- guys included- have always seen me as a guy who must have it easy with the ladies. I wonder, sometimes, if maybe my natural state was alpha but I had been so conditioned that the beta just became ingrained to the point were others see the alpha and I… Read more »

redlight
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“Most men will fail – repeatedly”

All blue pill men will fail – repeatedly. Most red pill men will succeed – repeatedly.

rugby11ljh
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The ability to learn and grow is essential.

Hobbes
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@orion- yeah, thats the look. lol.. I’m getting better, but habits are hard to break.

Hobbes
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@Bango Tango
Great comment. Thanks for that.
But I think alpha and liking women arent all that disconnected. I think. lol. Yeah, its a problem

bbb
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Most men are blue pill -> all blue pill men will fail -> most men will fail – repeatedly.

redlight
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“yeah, thats the look. lol.. I’m getting better, but habits are hard to break.”

I can now switch modes on a dime. When I switch to beta/mgtow/monk/whatever mode, not only does my wife get pissed, but my mom, my sister, my daughters, my female bosses, my female co-workers, the women at the coffee shop etc

Speaking of cuckold, ever been running as an alpha and some guy pitches you his wife? Now that’s some fucked up.

jf12
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re: pushing you into alpha. After the constant shit testing, the second biggest clue that women *want* their loving men to cease acting so loving is that women themselves admit that they cannot understand why so many men refuse to be jerks. You cannot be too cocky towards women; there is no limit to its effectiveness. You cannot be too mean towards women; there is no limit to its effectiveness. re: “Alpha is the state when you do not care about a woman” The absolute fact that every woman tries *hard* to make the man that cares for her to… Read more »

orion
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“The absolute fact that every woman tries *hard* to make the man that cares for her to *cease* caring for her, is the saddest and most broken thing in all the world. I guess its a good thing that women usually fail to make their men into monsters.”

Give them enough time and they just might succeed.

dcllcd
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@jf12 “why so many men refuse to be jerks.” After reading your comment that that quote above is from (great by the way), I came to realize what one of my hurdles was: becoming selfish I use to think being selfish was terrible. I think that’s why ‘nice guys’ can’t even imagine the thought of being mean or a jerk to women. Being a reformed ‘nice guy’ I can say that once you start becoming selfish it no longer feels like a bad thing. It seems almost like normal behavior for me now. It’s not being a jerk or selfish.… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
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What price a jerk? Most men naturally admire their more idealistic selves. Pro-social tendencies are hard-wired: They are reinforced throughout the years. Asking an average man to be a jerk is not much different than asking Jimi Hendrix to smash his guitar. Anyways, Most Blue-Pill men operate from a scarcity mentality. You know that, I know that, we all know that. Starving men aren’t ideologues, they are starving. They’ll accept whatever stupid thing you’ll tell them, if you can just end the pain. The second part is that most men operate in a comfort zone, same as most women. They… Read more »

George
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What is the limit of stupidity? Remaining beta after having the truth shown to you and the lies clearly exposed for what they are by Rollo and others is absolute insanity or you have the sense of a retarted cock roach that has been stepped on.

Tam the Bam
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Ads, boss? They’re starting to get onto it, in a less-than-helpful way, of course.
Here’s an English agency’s exemplar of the ‘Epiphany Phase’. Contains “chick crack” bonus, and is deliberately arch, creaky and campy (it’s English, duh).
Still plenty of old-skool beta-shaming on the shelves of course.

A Definite Beta Guy
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Most men ARE retarded cockroaches that been stepped on, repeatedly. That’s what they are conditioned to be. You can’t undo years of genetic and social programming just because you read something on a blog.

George
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@bango tango “The Beta is the natural state of all men when they actually like a woman, you can’t help yourself ” You are horribly mistaken. The “state” you speak of is not natural. Males who are naturally involved with sex at normal ages from a biological perspective do not have this problem nearly as much. Your “state” is really an unnatural psychosis resulting from extreme frustration and yearning for sexual intimacy caused by deprivation. The biological drive is very strong and unrelenting. When stifled and distorted by lies and culturally imposed imperatives this drive will manifest itself in less… Read more »

George
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@A Definite Beta Guy

To each his own excuse.

redlight
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“You can’t undo years of genetic and social programming”

It’s not genetic

Baby boys are different:

http://www.parenting.com/article/real-difference-between-boys-and-girls

At age 12 all the boys wanted to build tree forts, explore, hunt for stuff, fight, play sports, compete.

Then the testosterone kicked in.

You can undo years social programming by reading a blog, doing some stuff, and seeing how it turns out. It’s a positive feedback loop. Men’s natural state is not slave to women. Read history.

jf12
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George reaches far out and grasps something important. “Your “state” is really an unnatural psychosis resulting from extreme frustration and yearning for sexual intimacy caused by deprivation.”

It is true that if betas had been desired by women since puberty, like alphas are, then nobody would ever do anything else but sex, and we would all die happy.

jf12
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@redlight re: “doing some stuff, and seeing how it turns out. It’s a positive feedback loop. Men’s natural state is not slave to women.”

True. A slumped state seems more “natural” to someone who has been slumped for years, and standing up straight and tall seems “unnatural”. But if he worked at his posture for a while his views will change because his musculature will change.

jf12
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As a beta (and believe me I can be alpha, but unsustainedly because it’s an effort and I don’t like how it makes me feel), I cannot untangle what is my natural inclination to try to please women and appease women, and what is my social conditioning. I am currently (but not permanently) leaning to the hypothesis that alphas are nurtured not natured. Hear me out. I do not believe women have magical pickers/gene sensors. But what women are extremely keenly attuned to is how other women treat a male, AND how other women have been treating that male in… Read more »

Bango Tango
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You are horribly mistaken. The “state” you speak of is not natural. Males who are naturally involved with sex at normal ages from a biological perspective do not have this problem nearly as much. Your “state” is really an unnatural psychosis resulting from extreme frustration and yearning for sexual intimacy caused by deprivation. The biological drive is very strong and unrelenting. When stifled and distorted by lies and culturally imposed imperatives this drive will manifest itself in less than desirable way as we are experiencing. stifled and distorted by lies and culturally imposed imperatives this drive will manifest itself in… Read more »

jf12
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From the latest at How Unsexy Smart nerds are, we have this admission about a nice sweet kind funny gentleman “while he’s the kind of guy I SHOULD date, I don’t feel the sort of attraction and chemistry for him that I’ve felt with other guys” and “Can a woman encourage or bring out the ballsy, confident side”.

She is wondering how she can get him to be cockier and meaner toward her. I’m sure we can help with more realistic suggestions.

1. Grab him hard, like you WOULD if you were attracted to him.

jf12
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The women over there, in every article, ooze entitlement to white knighting by betas. AWALT. Even the tiny pats on the back that Stephen gets are merely pushing him to manning up and rescuing the sluts from their lifestyle choices.

jf12
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re: “Sorry dude you can’t escape evolution.”

It is true, I firmly believe, that evopsych wonderfully explains men’s romanticism and women’s narcissism. But while tendencies are ingrained, the ability to correct tendencies also exists. The fact that your car pulls to the right doesn’t mean you have to always drive in a right hand curve all the time, you merely have to work harder to go where you need to go.

Bango Tango
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You can undo years social programming by reading a blog, doing some stuff, and seeing how it turns out. It’s a positive feedback loop. Men’s natural state is not slave to women. Read history. Um…when you read history it is clear that man’s natural state is this. Women as a group pass on the dna of the species more the men as a group do (80/40). Civilization was basically built for women by men from a biological perspective. That doesn’t mean there is not the possibility for it to change, who knows what evolution has in store, but in order… Read more »

Throughfare
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@Bango Tango >The girls overseas can still be loyal but you better have some serious coin. Its a manosphere myth that there are lands overseas where the grass is greener and women with attitudes that harken back to some traditional golden age can be found. Rather than typing up my own big-ass response, I’m posting a link to something by a guy who’s been there, done that, and, for me, sums up what the reality, not the myth, is really like. But before that, let me say you should not, no- make that Never, blow serious coin on foreign women… Read more »

jf12
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For some reason this part of the Disney canon was deemed politically incorrect and buried in the memory hole. See if you can articulate why.

Ras al Ghul
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I honest think this is trying to get open acceptance of polyandry and cuckolding.

Many men have accepted preemptive cuckolding. The woman has prior partners has been accepted, women having a kid prior to the marriage is getting accepted more, the next step is getting men to accept her having other lovers and raising another man’s child in marriage.

That is the ultimate alpha fux/beta bux end game for a woman. Provisioning from a dutiful male slave and fun with the alpha at the same time.

jf12
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Let me repeat my position to someone. Although I will staunchly defend the truth that violence “works”, because of how women are, I am not advocating violence against women. To accuse me otherwise makes you guilty of the is-ought fallacy.

In fact, my *constant* harping is that women OUGHT to act better in response to being treated nicer.

redlight
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100 years ago, men were the head of the household, was married to a low count woman (often a virgin at marriage), his wife took his name, and laws were biased towards him. Feminists have done a terrific job of documenting this. There is no way that the average man felt he had less power in the relationship, since he didn’t have less power. His natural state was not subservient to his wife. Yes he was emotional attached to her, and hoped she didn’t die in giving birth to his children. Compare all this to today, and see how current… Read more »

redlight
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“Civilization was basically built for women by men” currently gets no search results in google, even taking out “basically”. However the one thing that does get a hit “”Civilization was built by men for women” is ” If civilization was built by men ‘for women’ then why is it just so awful being a women”. Take out the double quotes and you can read lots of Camille Paglia, which will help you take these social blinders off.

jf12
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Looking at the feed, I notice that Twitter has made the anti-male lesbian activist YMY author Jaclyn Friedman in charge of social morality.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/11/one-small-but-important-effort-to-make-twitter-safe-for-women/382484/
Friedman and her latest conquest will spend their time, and Twitter’s money, reading the worst of the abusive tweets to themselves, and discussing how hot they make each other feel.

jf12
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Funny albeit undetailed anecdote about Paglia: my (first) wife was enraged and sulked for days after, when Paglia was more interested in me than her.

sfcton
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women hate beta’s; they hate patriarchy because it forced them to fuck betas and they grow to hate the beta provider after they switch lanes. Seems reasonable they think less of today’s beta provider as the AF/BB plan is in the open and yet men sign up for life long commitment to another man’s leaving

jf12
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re: idealistic Jerk. One way is altruistic narcissism, in the literal sense. e.g. make yourself so blindingly brilliantly great that others around you cannot avoid becoming illuminated too.

Princess
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Let me see if I get this straight. The leaders of the mansphere are: Roosh V who practices sex turism and had his youtube channel banned and will probably lose whatever means of income is. Roissy, who was ousted by a feminist blogger. He lost his job back then, I don’t know what he’s been up to lately, probably saying that every problem is the fault of the jews. Deti, a 50-something obese black man who claims to be an expert on the African-American community. YaReally, an old obese guy who thinks he’s all that because he’s sleeping(paying) young Asian… Read more »

Princess
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”“Jerk” is a terminology invented by the Feminine Imperative. Actually I think being self-concerned or putting yourself as your mental point of origin is critical to a man’s idealism if he’s truly passionate about his idealism. Pandering to feminine-primacy isn’t idealism.” And what would the feminine imperative be? Fuck hot men? What is the reverse of the feminine imperative? fuck hot girls and marry plain-looking girls who’ll put out whenever you want and obey your every command, or as the Sultan Alpha of the King-Alphas we have here you deserve Adriana Lima? Enlighten me, great Alpha. ”“Civilization was basically built… Read more »

Princess
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”Let me repeat my position to someone. Although I will staunchly defend the truth that violence “works”, because of how women are, ” Damn. I already had you figured out for a retard but you’re reaching the level of sodini. And you are married? you bought your wife in Russia or in China? Women who select violent men as their partners had shitty childhoods.I interact everyday with women who have to stay with their abusive husbands because they have no chance. Trust me, you creepy fuck(oh shit, I must be a woman disguised!) I know of plenty of guys who… Read more »

Princess
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”The only way to continually prop up women’s SMV is to artificially lower men’s SMV.”

75% of the male population in the western civilization is beyond obese. Yes, women need to artificially lower what is not fucking there to begin with.

Ok, I’m done. Later, grandpa.

kfg
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” I’m going out and have some fun with people who aren’t socially retarded.”

Wherever you go, there you are.

bbb
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Freud has obviously spent considerable time here. Between the vitriol there might be a point of view I’d be interested in understanding. But again, because of the simplistic characterizations of what and whom we are, Freud’s message is lost.

Most of the tenets espoused in Rational Male fit my own observations of inter-gender behavior. And as a model have proven predictive of future behavior.

OK, so I reviewed Freud’s posts again carefully, looking for any useful nuggets. Came up short. Sorry.

Tam the Bam
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Jesus. It’s Prof. Hardnutt , she’s back.

“The majority of them is more educated” Ha! Irony for effect. Nice one.

“Do you even understand how human beings came from the mesolithic to the neolhitic period? Why men settle down and became farmers?”
Oddly enough, more than you could possibly imagine, sweetie.

“Ok, I’m done. Later, grandpa.”
Balls. That’s only the first 30.5 column inches, by my screen, and now you’ve got a bite you’ll be back. Again, and again, and again.
You simply can’t resist the attention, stumpy. Guaranteed.

Tam the Bam
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Ho ho, I see the landlord has sussed “Freud” out as well while I was tapping away. Is she on something? Take me a week to type out all that crap, it would.

SlothLemur
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Rollo, that “alpha tell” video on your twitter reminds me of videos where girls fainted for the Beatles and Micheal Jackson. Is that what you meant in the book, when you talked about how sexual attraction had characteristics of Anxiety, tension, and urgency ?

jf12
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What is the female analogue of the humiliating male cuckold fantasy? (I don’t grok the concept myself, because even the whiff of the notion that some other guy might be with my girl creates negative emotions for me)

Is it, possibly, the negative-attention whore? Like, she fantasizes about going naked on a slut walk and all the men avert their eyes and make retching noises?

Sao Feng
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Is “Princiess” = LyingTree2013 = confused?

jf12
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I think we all know the fatal flaw in Open Hypergamy: it forces men’s hand, it pushes men into alpha. Open Hypergamy is a surrender in disguise, because the only available countermove is Open Dread.

Check and mate.

New Yorker
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Loving a woman and what she does for your life is totally compatible with Alpha and DHV. She is an important part of your life that helps you become the creator of your personal world (career, family, interests, etc.). She helps you naturally be the man that you want to be. That’s all she wants. A strong, authentic, dynamic protector who values her for her contribution to his life. She does not want to be your life. The men who make a woman their life are those without imagination, drive and courage. That’s why a woman will always despise those… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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“new email accounts for the same IP every time”
Ah. I see. A pauper.

New Yorker
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Alpha is the natural state for men who survive and they are the ones who perpetuate history. Otherwise, the human race would have died out long ago. To any beta, please, stop deluding yourself and embrace your natural dynamic, physical, sexual self.

redlight
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The Nizkor Project (o teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred) has a great index of techniques of the haters. Here’s Personal Attack (also known as Ad Hominem Abusive): http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html That takes care of the bulk of content provided by the girl friend of a Swedish top model. In regard to “enjoy your bitter almonds”, you are quite prescience, I bought some dark chocolate almonds just minutes ago. “Men(not any of you) built civilization because we wanted to bring comfort and warmth and richeness into our lives, it was never about getting laid.” Now that you are agreeing with… Read more »

Bango Tango
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100 years ago, men were the head of the household, was married to a low count woman (often a virgin at marriage), his wife took his name, and laws were biased towards him. Feminists have done a terrific job of documenting this. There is no way that the average man felt he had less power in the relationship, since he didn’t have less power. His natural state was not subservient to his wife. Yes he was emotional attached to her, and hoped she didn’t die in giving birth to his children. Compare all this to today, and see how current… Read more »

manosphere lurker
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Re:cuckold What many “manospherians” seem to forget is that while some men are into cuckolding, it says a lot more about the women who actually succumb to it and cherish it. Obviously, this touches on a women’s pluralistic strategy but there’s a darker truth here. Let me explain, as we all know, women are the gatekeepers of sex. Women won’t have sex with unattractive males they deem unfit or physically unpleasing (from an alpha fucks point of view). Women have sex to potentially have children with their mates. I mean sure, the pill, the condom, and abortions have changed this… Read more »

redlight
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Back to Rollo’s post, have you noticed how short the shelf life of a beta is becoming? When the average of age of marriage was around 25, the beta could get engaged and marry, his wife would be pleasantly occupied with wedding showers, wedding, baby showers, babies, and all her BFFs on the same program. Following the generalized SMV timeline of Rollo (albeit some changes 20 years ago): : the wife didn’t start the abandonment of the marriage, via divorce or dead bedroom, until about 35, giving the beta about 10 “good” years, and if he sat out the next… Read more »

Bango Tango
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Its a manosphere myth that there are lands overseas where the grass is greener and women with attitudes that harken back to some traditional golden age can be found. It is not a myth. I PERSONALLY know 4 different men who all went overseas and found a traditional woman who they married and brought back to the US and had kids with (3 out of the 4). 12-20 years later they are all still together with the houses and the white picket fence. Highly unlikely the women have ever cheated on their husbands either. So your just wrong. It is… Read more »

David
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Rollo, I love your article, but you didn’t mention a small-but-important irony. To resent a man who intimately accepts her despite knowing about hypergamy is *really* to resent all men for granting her the sexual freedom that put her in this position. She wants a society in which men are both sufficiently competent and morally compelled to prevent her from making bad choices, standing in between herself and her Alpha Cad if necessary. She wants, sad and ironic though it may be, a Patriarchy. What’s sad, though, for them is that as I become more self-assured and self-improved, I only… Read more »

redlight
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“Go back 2000 years to Rome and most men were celibate slaves their entire lives while most of the women engaged in orgies with the alphas at the time.”

If you refer to Slavery in the Late Roman World, AD 275–425, you will see that slavery was very unlikely to be male dominated in both the early and late periods. I idea that Romans created their civilization for women is lacking any historical context.

s.r.
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Stephan Molyneaux deals with this in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1tlDYvhiI&list=UUC3L8QaxqEGUiBC252GHy3w

He is really getting red pill in his commentary. I don’t agree with this pro-anarchy but his red pill analysis is excellent.

s.r.
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Wrong video. Its the Women, Marriage and Sexual Attraction video.

Badpainter
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 jf12 – “Let me repeat my position to someone. Although I will staunchly defend the truth that violence ‘works’, because of how women are, I am not advocating violence against women. To accuse me otherwise makes you guilty of the is-ought fallacy.” An idea I’ve been mulling for awhile. Male violence or the tendency for such is the analogue for women’s hypegamy. First we should think of violence and hypegamy not as exclusively sexual strategies but rather as the survival skills unique to each sex.  For woman hypergamy mitigates against being generally smaller, slower, weaker than men and also for… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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Pretty good propositions in yr. com. , BP. “a zero tolerance mindset that has practically eliminated real threats but still needs to reinforce the repression of those who were never a problem” Except one problem. How to dispose of and remove these unattractive men permanently, so they don’t have to sift the dross available to them (their actual SMV equivalents, if assortative mating was practised). The answer being, of course, the perpetual invoking of .. er, violence against them, by those few men who still have the state’s approval to employ this capacity. Who, by dint of their embedding in… Read more »

Bango Tango
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If you refer to Slavery in the Late Roman World, AD 275–425, you will see that slavery was very unlikely to be male dominated in both the early and late periods. I idea that Romans created their civilization for women is lacking any historical context. Dude wtf are talking about? So it was women plowing the fields and doing the heavy lifting? It was women building the infrastructure and growing the food? Every civilization from the big to small was created by men to gather resources to attract women for mating. If you don’t understand this basic concept there is… Read more »

orion
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For Stephen:

redlight
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“Every civilization from the big to small was created by men to gather resources”

good so far, gather and keep resources

“to attract women for mating”

wrong, they didn’t attract, they took

“there is no point in having a discussion”

sure, bail out dude, lmao

Matt
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It’s sort of the same with getting married. She knows it’s a shitty deal for the man, but needs the deal to survive. Unfortunately, any man who signs the shitty deal automatically looks pathetic to the wife, not to mention the competition anxiety that has disappeared.

Rollo, is the imperative in our male dna? I mean, if you look at other species, it seems like the males are often treated like garbage by the females. We are naturally slaves to women in some way, are we not? Only, the red pill awakening makes us hate our nature.

Badpainter
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Bangor Tango – “Every civilization from the big to small was created by men to gather resources to attract women for mating.” I think this is a flawed perspective. Civilization is the collective whole of the technical solutions to the survival problem. Generally the point is not to attract women but to ensure everyone eats. Individually the goalies to produce the same or better output with less actual labor. The drivers of development are first and foremost trying to make their individual lives easier by finding less labor intensive methods of securing, and retaing access to food and clean water.… Read more »

jf12
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@Badpainter, re: violence vs hypergamy. Great points all around. Hypergamy is the means by which the FI manifests itself most directly, and male violence is the means by which the male imperative (to have as many women as possible) manifests itself most directly. re: “Men gave up individual violence to build civilization, women benefitted directly from that. Over time this suppression of male violence has created men who are frustrated, emasculated, betatized and placed in a position of default surrender to an unrestrained FI. One the one hand men are restrained in how they deal physically with women, but more… Read more »

jf12
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A neighbor of sorts in her late 30s, from a different street, I’ve known for some years just from seeing her out and about. After she had her one child at about age 30, she let herself go for a few years then kicked her beta husband out (he’s since remarried, and had another kid). She’s been out walking regularly for a while, but just recently started jogging a bit. She laughs about trying to lose weight to attract a better sort of man. I’ve tried to tell her that jogging just makes you good at jogging, while dieting is… Read more »

Badpainter
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jf12 – “I agree except that I think it’s much more important for gender relations that men are currently restrained in dealing with women.” I agree in principle. How much restraint is enough? Too much? The actual use of violence against a woman is unnecessary as long as there is a credible possibilty that it exists in everyman. The neutered Betas of 2014 collectively lack that threat. That any individual Beta might go ape-shit is not enough to provide a social herd immunity. The crux of the problem is the absence of a credible violent threat. Creating one needs only… Read more »

jf12
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@BP re: herd immunity by proxy. This is some deep stuff we’re wading in, but those who are reading along may benefit. I’m not going to agree that the best way for a man to be credibly violent is to restrain his violence and direct it solely against another man. I also do not agree with the unmade point that women tend to get turned on by, or even care about, one man beating down another man. Women do get turned on by a male exhibiting unrestrained violence, including jumping up and down and pant-hooting and beating the ground with… Read more »

redlight
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“Having never known scarcity they are incapable of understanding the fragility of the system”

thank you for explaining why my wife doesn’t see the need to keep water and canned goods in case of a disaster

Badpainter
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jf12 – “What counts to women is the potential for that violence to be used against them.” The demonstrate willingness to go to blows with another man is alone insufficient you’re correct, but it is still necessary as it demonstrates ability. In aggregate there needs be enough men who show a willingness to do same with women. This need not be full on beat down, a light slap, or hard squeeze of an upper arm would be enough when coupled with the proper frame of obvious controlled anger. However these things will result in jail, and in the US the… Read more »

jf12
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@BP re: “The FI has created a huge game of chicken where men generally are triple dog dared to do something at the risk of loss of liberty or property.” + “game is any sort of macro solution”

You are designing the solution by delineating the problem. To be effective, Game must be a way to win, to cheat, at this game of chicken.

New Yorker
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Game is just an expression of a masculine nature. The point of understanding it is to know the beast that lives inside every blue-pill beta and how to learn to liberate it. There is no way to “cheat”. A man either becomes masculine and lives for his own pleasure, in which case, the women in his life slip into his frame….or he stays a beta provider who gets abused. There is no middle ground.

Just Saying
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Men who fear being single like women do are beta men. Why would any man “fear” being single? Being single means that every woman out their is your prey – and they so like to be “eaten”… It makes sense for women to fear being single – they have a very short window to find and land a man, as well as have children. Men can start a family any time up to the point he dies, and since women find wealth, and power turn-ons, the older he is, the more options he has when it comes to women. Men… Read more »

Badpainter
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jf12 – ” Game must be a way to win, to cheat, at this game of chicken.” I think game is a very good work around for some number of men individually but not a panacea. The existing social structures and poitical/legal regime are fully supportive of open unrestrained hypergamy, game does not address that. Nothing addresses the fundamental deceit of the epiphany phase. I also believe under the current social order that if all men were game aware and redpill then the 80/20 rule would still apply but the value of men much higher. The external incentives for open… Read more »

Badpainter
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New Yorker – “There is no way to ‘cheat.’ A man either becomes masculine and lives for his own pleasure…”

In so far as game is concerned you’re correct. The “cheat” I refer to is external to game. The legal externalities are not adequately mitigated by game and require a conscious awareness of their existance at minimum. Dealing with the basic deceit and duplicity of women is one thing, dealing with the FI’s jack-booted thugs and Kafkaesque legal system is another. Without the externalities created by the FI game might well be a universal solution.

sfcton
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Great work BP

I maintain everything in the SMP is a proxy for competency for violence; competency in violence equals survival and violence makes them wet

http://tonsplace.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/bad-boy-game/

theHedonist
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Nicely put, I’m following all these threads and finding the word stephen to see if he’s commented and read rollo’s take on it . .can someone confirm that??

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