Looks Count

“Your bulletproof Game and charming personality wont make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”

Looks.

Assets.

Game.

Have two. Three is best, but if you only have one, Game is the most essential.

I realize that I’m heading into dangerous territory with this, but I maintain that looks are an integral part of attraction – sorry, that’s a fact of life – but I’ve never stated that looks cancel Game. In fact I advocate that learning Game is just as necessary as maintaining a good physique.

The problem is with people who can only think in absolutes. It’s always an either-or proposition; Game trumps physique or physique trumps game is horse shit. They’re both important and play off each other. There are plenty of average looking guys who pull tail thanks to Game in spite of their looks, and there are also good-looking guys who pull tail without ever hearing what Game is. But wouldn’t you rather be the guy with both? The guy who can pull women without compensating for personal deficits?

Consider that greater than 66% of people in western society are overweight (33% are morbidly obese). So it stands to reason that 2/3rd of the guys seeking out the community in order to change their lives, outlook and sexual prospects are going to be struggling with obesity from the outset. Now also consider the preferred belief among guys that looks, at least, matter less than personality, Game, etc. in female attraction. This is NOT a coincidence. For these guys it takes more effort to change their bodies than to change their minds.

“Looks aren’t as important for women

The first thing most men who were previously out of shape will tell you is the marked increase in attention they receive from women after they got in shape. This is perhaps the simplest experiment that puts the lie to this assertion.*

There is a popular misconception men adopt in thinking that “looks aren’t as important for women” and that they’re more forgiving of a few extra pounds if a guy is witty, humorous and/or embodies some combination of the laundry list of nonsensical adjectives they place on their online dating profiles. This is the male version of the body image acceptance social convention women have been promoting themselves for the past 50 years. Don’t worry about getting in shape; money, humor and confidence will make any woman swoon for you. If this were the case the Louie Andersons and Danny Devitos of the world would be swimming in top-shelf poon. I have no doubt that very rich, but out of shape men have a relatively easy time attracting women, but they can’t make a woman genuinely desire to fuck him on a physical level. It’s just the very commercial version of negotiating desire.

While this may seem like a male-specific social convention, guess again; it’s actually a very calculated feminine convention. In terms of feminine breeding strategies and women’s schedules of mating, it is far more advantageous for a woman to engage in short-term breeding strategies with Alpha men during the peak of her sexual viability when she knows there is a social structure ready to accommodate her long-term breeding strategy (i.e. provisioning) with future men. In other words, encourage men to think that “looks aren’t as important to women” so they’ll be more acceptable future providers while breeding in the short-term with men embodying their very specific physical ideal. This is precisely the reason why the “kidult / man-up” phenomenon is so vexing for women today – it threatens this long-term strategy.

Priorities

In accordance with women’s sexual strategies, women place an importance upon looks according to their phase of life. The priorities and importance of characteristics that women will consider prerequisites for intimacy shift as her life’s conditions dictate.

14 – 24 years old: Looks are EVERYTHING. Yes, some romanticism might help complete the fantasy, and Game is definitely a factor, but the priority for arousal is primarily Darwinian. Women will gladly overlook character flaws or a lack of assets in favor of fucking the physical Alpha while she approaches her own sexual apex. For a brilliant study of this take the time to read Dr. Martie Hasselton’s study, Why Muscularity is Sexy.

25-30 years old: Looks are still of primary importance, but other factors are beginning to compete in significance as she becomes increasingly more aware of hitting the impending Wall. While she’s still hot enough to command attention, her hypergamic priorities lean more towards the life time provisioning potential and parental investment potential a Man represents. As she gets closer to 30, she knows she has to play her cards well if she is to cash out of the game while she’s still able to compete with other women. Ambition, character, assets, humor, personality, etc. begin to be more important in the light of a potential lifetime commitment.

30-35 years old: Most single women in this demographic are in varying degrees of denial (aided by social conventions), but on some level of consciousness they realize that they’re past their expiration date and securing a commitment is a progressively more difficult battle with every passing year. Looks lose precedent in favor of assets and status. Game and personality become more prominent, but the primary focus is catching up to the choices she made (or should’ve made) when she was about 28. Locking down a proven commodity – a Man with a reasonable amount of success and status – is the goal now; not a Man with “potential” for that same success. While the physical is still important, she’s more than willing to compromise the physical standards she held at 24 if the Man brings a lot to the table.

35-45 years old: She’s well past her expiration date, hit the Wall and is, graciously or not, accepting the fact that she’s used goods. Any notion of a list of requisites or priorities are a fond memory now. She may play the Cougar card in an ego protection effort. This may seem like she’s back to her primary Looks focus in playing the Cougar, but again, on some level of consciousness she understands that younger Men are doing her the favor by fucking her and in no way expects more than a physical fling. The hope is still, by some miracle, to lock down an aging AFC divorcee in a bad spot, with at least some amount of appreciable assets. Status is nice, looks would be icing on the cake if he’s still got them, but provisioning takes priority above even Game or social intelligence.

Making the Change

Changing yourself takes an effort. The greatest obstacle in change is the first one; recognizing and accepting that you need to change. This is where AFCs and beta males chomp at the bit because they’ve been told for the better part of a lifetime to “just be themselves” and everything will go according to fate’s plan. Then for whatever reason they unplug from the Matrix enough to realize that they’ve been sold a bill of goods and that personal change is necessary for them. They need to change their lifestyle, change their attitudes, change their outlook, change their minds about themselves and yes, change their physiques too.

But change takes effort and people are lazy. They want the quick fix; the magic pill that makes them happy, successful and sexually irresistible. So they flock to guys selling the best program that promises all that for a minimum of effort. Learning Game demands practiced effort, but it requires FAR less physical effort than improving one’s body, and it’s especially daunting for guys unaccustomed to working out. It takes time, energy and dedication all commensurate with how out shape that guy is to begin with.

From Women’s Physical Standards:

There are countless “chubby chaser” websites dedicated to catering to this particular “fetish” for men, but not a single one exists for women, why?. By that I mean there is a percentage in society of otherwise average, fit men seeking out obese women, yet the standard for ideal masculinity seems to remain constant for females by the lack of “fetishes” for obese males. There is such a demand in society by men seeking fat women that businesses have been developed in order meet it, but there is no similar demand on the part of fit women (or one not sufficient enough to register) seeking overweight men. Why do you suppose this is? There has never been a “rubenesque” period for Men – where overweight men were consider the feminine ideal – in history. A muscular athletic build has ALWAYS been the masculine standard.

As I stated in Sexy, men define what is feminine and sexy for women, however the inverse is true in that women define what is masculine and sexy for men. The reason women find particular aspects of Men’s physiology sexually arousing is because the men in the past who embodied them were rewarded with sex often enough to make those traits hard-coded into women’s brains.

Yes, Game is vitally important, as is root level, dynamic personal change. I don’t think I need to explain just how important this is. However, looks COUNT, looks MATTER. What I find amazingly ironic is that looks are one of the few areas of change that a Man has DIRECT control over – his body. Barring physical disabilities, you have no excuse not to be in better shape. Why wouldn’t you want the full package? Stop being so Goddamned lazy and accept that you’ll need to exert some effort and sweat to make yourself more attractive. Game and a positive-masculine DJ mindset are vital elements for your attractiveness and well-being, but they WONT make you look any better with your shirt off.

*Side Note: I should also point out that for as much as women will assert that a man’s penis size is irrelevant to their sexual pleasure, often the first insult they’ll hurl at a man in order to shame him is “I’ll bet he’s got a small dick!” You connect the dots.


108 responses to “Looks Count

  • A.B. Dada

    I just got into this very debate today on some friend’s Facebook wall.

    I was always an ugly kid. I was also a fighter, so my face is pretty beaten up. Some women love my scars, crooked chin, busted nose, and misplaced eye-socket. Most don’t — at least, I never did well on dating sites because my photos are pretty asymmetrical.

    The big issue is that confidence overcomes symmetry. My face has not prevented me from dating beautiful women long term — my confidence has made them completely ignore the cosmetic imperfections.

    Going primal/paleo and losing 20# of weight (60# overall since my mid-20s) has had a huge effect on women. Inverted pyramid physiques lead to tailor-only clothing lead to noticeable initiations of interest from random women in my daily life.

    Sure, my handsome faced guy friends get WAY more in that area, but they quickly lose the women they attract because of their beta nature. I’m constantly amazed at guys who can pull 8s and 9s instantly but then moan about how the gal never responds to texts anymore. I am pull 1/10th their number of 8s or 9s, but I rarely get flaked on. If I even SENSE a flaking, I LJBF them immediately and put them in the DHV/social proof camp. Instantly.

    There’s a lot an ugly-faced guy can do to overcome that problem. The first thing he needs to do is approach 300% more than a handsome guy (at the very least). Approach, approach, approach. Ask for numbers. Go out on first dates. Do it until you can’t do it anymore — and see that even if you get shot down 90% of the time, you’ll still get women. Once you do that, you can start denying women over whatever issue she has. Approaching is power building. It’s the squat of weightlifting in the dating market.

    The second thing an ugly faced guy can do is get a great body. Lose the carbs, increase the healthy fats, do some Crossfit, whatever. Read “The Primal Blueprint” and live it for 6 months.

    Once your body is in shape, GET A HAIRCUT. Go to a gay salon, spend $150, whatever it takes. Get a haircut that makes sense with your features. (I skip this step as I have sissy long hair, since I don’t give a fuck).

    Great body, great haircut — now go get some clothes that look good. I recommend http://www.mytailor.com if you want it simple. 3 suits, 6 dress shirts, 5 slacks, 2 pairs of tailored jeans, and a small rotation of great shoes. I prefer 4% stretch with my cotton shirts since I have a heavy drop (12″ right now).

    Looks matter, but don’t be a metrosexual about it. If I can overcome my fucked up grill and features with a little tiny bit of work once a year, anyone can. It all starts with confidence, and confidence comes from approaches. Do it daily, hourly if you have to, and the rest comes easy.

    Another great post, Rollo. I want to buy your e-book.

  • Mike C

    Learning Game demands practiced effort, but it requires FAR less physical effort than improving one’s body, and it’s especially daunting for guys unaccustomed to working out. It takes time, energy and dedication all commensurate with how out shape that guy is to begin with.

    Less physical effort? Yes. But in my opinion, it really is the low-hanging fruit in boosting overall attractiveness because it is formulaic and algorithmic. Learning Game on the other hand requires a lot of trial and error, fucking up, and recalibrating. You can’t just robotically spit some routine where you can go to the gym and robotically do the workout routine.

    I graduated college in 1995 6’3″ 265 at 30% BF and a virgin. I actually did one of the first Muscle Media body transformation contests. A year later of regular working out I was down to 205 at around 8-10% bodyfat and was tanning 2-3 times a week. Year later I had landed a solid 8 for a GF and lost my virginity. Truth be told, I was still VERY MUCH an inner beta AFC even after the physical transformation, and really didn’t understand how to capitalize on what I had. She became my one-nitis, and I eventually married and divorced her. Incidentally, after reading your post on BP, I’m pretty sure she qualified. I didn’t discover Game until around 2005 post-divorce, and I can say unequivocally that reshaping your personality (especially if you are a logical introvert) to be attractive to women is orders of magnitude more difficult then reshaping your body because the results are not a steady progression. With workouts, you see your body changing week after week consistently.

    In any case, I think it makes sense to go after the low-hanging fruit first and hit looks first. Drop the weight. Workout 5-6 days a week with at least 4 cardio sessions, throw the ECA stack in there, cut out junk carbs, and hit squats and deadlifts heavy. Then go buy a whole new wardrobe if you dress like a dork. Then study Game so that when you actually start getting female attention and IOIs, you don’t completely fuck it up (which was a problem for me for years)

  • My Name Is Jim

    One minor point in an otherwise perfectly good post: “Consider that greater than 66% of people in western society are overweight (33% are morbidly obese).” I don’t think men are quite as bad as all that. Whenever I see these stats and then chase down the source, it always seems to come back to measuring obesity by straight BMI. BMI isn’t a good measure for men because when a lot of men work out, they gain almost as much muscle weight as they lose fat weight. (Unless they were pretty fat to begin with) I’m not too far from being overweight by straight BMI, and my bodyfat percentage is well down in single digits, and it’s not like I’m a natural mesomorph. True, the tens seem to demand those abs, and that takes more discipline than just not having a big beer gut.

    That’s the first thing I went for, the body. Next I’m going for the tailored clothes, and working on the biomechanics. I want the movements, the talk, the gesturing, the expressions of an alpha. They say you should choose an inspriational figure that suits your personality type and learn how he had that charisma. My working choice is JFK. His presidential library has lots of old reels of him for careful observation, and there’s the manosphere to give you tips.

    True I haven’t done a lot of approaching, but I’m in an LTR, so I’m kind of limited there. But I think all this still has plenty of value even if you’re not into ONS game. Step by step, I’ll get there.

  • CaptainAction

    Working on your physique and building muscle increases testosterone. My thinking is that this increased testosterone could then act as a great fuel for your game skills, for dealing with approach anxiety and for taking positive risks. You’d also just feel damn better about yourself.

  • dragnet

    Rollo has an e-book?

  • YOHAMI

    Looks matter, a lot, but looks is not what gets you laid. Even if you´re stunning the girl is gonna put you through tests. I see the order of importance as:

    Game (personality, masculinity, drive, charm, dominance)
    Social proof (the throne other people puts you in)
    Assets (stuff you own and display)
    Looks (body, clothes)

    Some of these are interchangeable and every aspect influence the rest.

    Say. Your looks say a lot about the rest of the items. If you´re fat and smell silly it says a lot about your game, social proof etc. Looks are the presentation card, and they convey the rest of the traits. So in a way, looks are “everything”.

    Assets. The girls you attract with that are not the good kind. But again, assets can produce attraction as they also convey personality traits, game, etc. It´s different if you own a motorcycle or if you own a family motorhome or a corvette. Items convey meaning.

    Social proof. This is the vital external thing. Because girls go with the popular, center of the social circle, here is where dominance is measured. This is what conveys safety. Girls are herd animals, there´s nothing more attractive than the center of the herd.

    Game. At the end this is what counts, because when its you and her alone, all the other stuff has to be true reflection of who you really are, and it has to show in your interpersonal interactions. If there´s dissonance you´re up for a long, uphill and losing battle. Everything else emanates from here.

    In short looks, assets, social proof are assets, that interconnect with each other, and are all reflection of your Game. And your game itself is just another reflection of the “true” you, which in this context is just your genes, since this is a breeding / reproductive game.

  • Looks matter, but looks is not what gets you laid. | YOHAMI

    [...] Looks matter, but looks is not what gets you laid. Even if you´re stunning the girl is gonna put you through tests. I see the order of importance as: [...]

  • dragnet

    This is such a badly needed post in the manosphere—long overdue. I’ve talked about EXACTLY this shit at Roissy’s…and soon found my comments in moderation.

    Looks matter to women. They. Just. Do. Game uber alles, no doubt…but why not be the total package?? I have a hard time believing that someone who is too lazy to workout and do what is necessary to change their physique will be motivated enough to outlast the pain of the trials, errors and failures that bedevil every aspiring Gamesmen in the beginning of their quest.

    And being good-looking takes pressure off of your Game—women simply give you a greater margin of error than they would if you were ugly or fat, the same way men tend to be a more tolerant of hot chicks than their less talented sisters.

    It really depends on what you’re working with, and I’ll use myself as an example.

    I’ve always been tallish (6’1) and athletic, nice build and nice facial features…but I had acne, shitty posture, dressed like crap, and was super skinny. So…I got on accutane, went from 160ish to 205, got my bodyfat under 10 percent and started wearing nicer clothes that fit. The results have been ridiculous. It really depends on the raw material. You just have to be realistic about where you’re starting from and what you have to work with.

    I definitely still have to work to get laid. But my looks mean that my Game simply doesn’t have to be as tight as most other guys—and it isn’t. My Game consists mostly of inner game/frame control and physical escalation. A little comfort building when needed. I mostly just try not to make mistakes and play defense. Being good-looking and physically imposing means girls are less inclined to shit test or challange me—I haven’t had to neg a girl in years and I get away with ignoring most shit tests that do actually come my way. Sure I have to work, but I work a lot less.

    If you can improve your looks to significant degree–and take some pressure off your Game–then it’s worth it do so. It’s worth the rewards and it’s a really incredible feeling realizing the amount of control you’ve exerted on your own reality, even your own body.

  • YOHAMI

    Yeah. Get your body in optimal shape, get a haircut and fashionable clothing. Its amazing how everyone treats you different, even if the rest of you is still the old you.

  • zeitgeist

    It’s so satisfying knowing you’ve been repeatedly punched in the face.

  • Traveller

    Good post, but I do not agree the belief “look is not important to women” amongst not fit guys is so diffused.

    Quite the opposite, most of them are aware being passed by football players and motorbikers.

    The point maybe is, it is natural go for the minumum work path, so many fat guys focus not on exercise, but humour, culture (I make your homework and you make me a bj… sure mate), money. I do not know if Game is statistically judged more difficult than diet and exercise, but for sure it is in a ladder of priorities.

    Look, money, height, men are not so delusional as women. They see the reality. Of course the society in full force tries to push for a fake self acceptance.

  • Marx

    Looks and Game go hand in hand. They should mutually reinforce each other.

    Genes gave you your face–your facial symmetry, shape, and skin color. But the great thing about being a man is that you’re NOT condemned to a lifetime of misery if you were born butt-ass ugly. Your body shape, muscle tone, manner of speech, fashion style, confidence, skills, intelligence, and assets can all be changed, with *hard work and perseverance*.

    Never cease in your pursuit of holistic self-improvement.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    If you haven’t done so, read through the Martie Hasselton study I link:

    http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/downloads/Frederick_Haselton_2007_Muscularity_sexy.pdf

    In particular pay attention to strategic pluralism and women’s preference for fitness indicators (pg. 4)

    This should be required reading for any freshly unplugged guy, and will pretty much put to rest the “looks aren’t as important to women” meme.

  • unbowed

    “After 40 every man gets the face he deserves” -Abe Lincoln.

  • Peregrine John

    Re BMI: Absolutely true. I’m carrying maybe 15-20# that needs removal, and my upper torso needs much better definition. That said, I look reasonably fit, but according to my BMI I’m seriously overweight. My bones are, I swear, made of depleted uranium or something, because my BMI is way off-kilter.

    So I totally ignore it.

  • A.B. Dada

    Ha, that’s great — is it real?

    I’m pushing 40, and I’ve been told by relatively young women who I never knew long that I look very young, and when they stalk Facebook photos, they admit that I’m far better looking now than ever before in my life.

    That’s all bullshit — it’s female doublespeak. The fact is, I’m in far better shape, and my confidence is sky high, and that’s all that matter. Women can not see the ugly if the guy is confident in himself.

  • Leap of a Beta

    Rollo, or anyone here really – do you know a good website for a workout routine? I’ve browsed a couple to go with the gym membership I got two weeks ago, but haven’t found any that really click.

    I’m 5’10, 185 lbs. I was told by the gym when I signed up and went through all their initial things that I had 20 lbs of fat I could safely lose. Most of it is upper body I’m sure – played soccer most of my life and bike on a regular basis, but have neglected my upper body since stopping wrestling in high school.

    I lost about 15 lbs over the last year just through changing my diet up to cut out fats and sugars. I also stopped eating anything but fish for meat – which I’ve considered changing lately as I can’t find a single damn diet for working out/weight loss that’s pescatarian.

  • Mike C

    Leap,

    http://www.t-nation.com/

    If I could go back and tell my 22-year old self what to do, I’d tell him to stay away from the bullshit isolation exercises, and start with the core foundational lifts of squat, deadlift, chest press, and pull-ups. That will put on some size quick, boost test and growth hormone.

  • rgoltn

    Being married and 45 here, I agree with this post 100%. Looks matter and always do; especially in a marriage. As I have aged and experienced the stresses in life such as moving up the corporate ladder, starting a company, selling it, having kids etc. looks, assets and game keep the marriage strong.

    I can attest that I run game on my wife and keep my self in shape and strong. The assets are strong and that always helps, but I cna tell when she is “into me” or not. Total chick-thing. If I look good to her and stay strong and confident, the sex is good. If I gain weight, look like a “shlub,” she gets turned off….and of course she does not hold the same standard for herself. Such a woman.

    She is pretty hot for 45 and her SMV for the 40-50 age group is an 8-9. However, guys pushing 50 make her feel old; she does not want to date “dad” and younger guys under 40 make her feel the same. I am a 8-9 in the same group too, but find women from 30+ interested in me now.

    All of her friends are in the same age group and single. Most are divorced, but many are never-married. They are lonley women who try to project the SITC life, but go home to a lonely house with a dog or cat.

    I keep wifey guessing; run game and make sure I look good. She is beginning to worry and wants to stay married. She knows the 32 yr old hottie at work thinks I’m “cute” and when we go out with her friends, I end up chatting with other girls. She keeps an eye on me and knows when to insert herself into the conversation. Pretty funny.

    Still, you need all three to really have control.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    My BMI is 31. Obese. I don’t think anyone who has ever met me would believe that.

  • unbowed

    Abe was at least the 1st to say it.
    Your inner qualities can impact your outer self. Literally, if you worry a lot, you’re going to develop wrinkles around your mouth & brow. Though I think there’s something more intangible there as well.

  • Leap of a Beta

    Reading through it now. The fasting thing is something I already do actually – though I did it unconsciously without a guide and didn’t workout till recently. Is his site all about the dieting side of things? Seems to be – not seeing anything on a workout routine. Definitely liking what I’m seeing so far with it fitting into my diet and being something I can easily change a few things to work with well.

  • Leap of a Beta

    Most of that site seems to be random advice or pushing the Indigo supplement. Any specific part you’d recommend? Their site layout is confusing and also triggering some of my “click on anything interesting” tendencies, so I’m reading things but not in any organized/productive way.

  • FFY

    Just tweeted the study, because honestly it is one of the most informative things I’ve read in a long time. Thanks, Rollo.

    I also found Page 4 very fascinating. Particularly how women will alter their preferences for how much investment they feel they can get from the mate, and if they need any investment. If I read that correctly, they will (ugly chicks) lower their alpha expectations/requirements if they don’t think they can get much investment from one.

    Smart ass time: This explains HUS

  • FFY

    In addition to T-Nation, you might want to take a gander over at stronglifts.com.

    Mike C-

    “start with the core foundational lifts of squat, deadlift, chest press, and pull-ups”

    Yep

  • King A's Bastard Son

    ….and yet another case where A.B. Dada rushed to post the first comment.

    Doesn’t this guy have a life? Or does he spend all day monitoring this site so that he can be assured of posting the first comment on each article?

    What a f**cking wanker.

  • dragnet

    When I first started lifting, I used http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com. It’s a great place for guys who are just starting out trying to get bigger and stronger and are just learning the ropes.

    After I became an intermediate level lifter and able to design my own programs I started using t-nation and bodybuilding.com. In particular, I found articles written by Peter Van Mol on bodybuilding.com to be especially helpful. Pay close attention to his I.C.E. program articles—those were instrumental in getting me from 180 to 200 lbs.

    That’s gaining muscle. As for losing fat, I have two words for you: interval training. intervaltraining.net is a good place to start—I found tabata workouts to be really beneificial.

  • Flahute

    I don’t know if Mehti gives the program away for free anymore, but stronglifts.com is a decent beginning strength program that owes a lot to Rippetoe. His focus is on the powerlifts: squats, deadlifts, bench press 3 days/week.

    Now if you really like cycling, the weight will fly off you if you ride consistently and build volume week over week. I can tell you exactly what you need to do if you want to drop that weight by cycling. If interested, respond to this post and I’ll lay it out for you.

  • Jambo

    Check out this guy for some decent workout plans/advice. He’s a little goofy, but has some good plans and tips for working out at home.

    http://scoobysworkshop.com/

    Great blog Rollo, wish I would have had access to info like this 20 years ago. Would have saved me a lot of heartache and cash.

  • A.B. Dada

    I actually sit on here and hit F5 constantly so I can always be fr1st.

    All the cool guys do it.

  • YOHAMI

    One day Im gonna beat you to it.

    Im lifting weights just so I can press F5 faster.

  • Leap of a Beta

    Cool. Thanks guys.

    I think my goals are to get the fat off first and then work on the muscle gain in small increments. Looks like I have all the tools to start on that and now know where I can go for questions or advice.

    Looks like I have a long weekend of reading up on this stuff. Then I’ll start implementing on Monday.

  • Mike C

    Leap,

    Do both simultaneously. Muscle is metabolically active. Estimates vary, but you burn something like 50-100 calories more a day per pound of muscle doing absolutely nothing but sitting on your ass. Building muscle also has positive hormonal impacts on fat loss. Often, the biggest mistake I’ll see women make is live on the cardio machine instead of lifting some weights. All cardio isn’t the best method.

  • King A's Bastard Son

    …..all while flying to Vegas, or to some exotic overseas center of finance, to monitor your investments — your Beretta handy in your purse and your iPhone full of texts from the latest HB 9 you’re banging.

    Loser.

  • Leap of a Beta

    Hmmm, I think I was unclear in what I meant.

    I’ll definitely be hitting the weights. Everything I’ve read and also what I’ve seen in myself says that its a good thing. It teaches your body to keep the muscles and ditch the fat instead of burning muscle mass for energy.

    What I won’t be doing right away is focusing on adding muscle weight like the first website Dragnet linked tells you how to do to add 25 lbs of muscle. I’m sure I’ll add some, and thats ok and isn’t something I’ll fight – I’ll be happy about it.

    My main goal is to be healthier and in a more fit condition. I would describe it as toned instead of built. I personally just feel like I’d like myself better that way. Plus I have to tread the line between attractive/intimidating and being overly intimidating. Working in theatre as a scene designer I want to be masculine but still come off as someone that can work in an artistic team to get projects done.

    Considering that no one in my field seems to care about personal health – physical or mental – I just need to be careful not to over do things.

  • A.B. Dada

    I don’t bang HB9s — I LJBF them. Social proof with the insane ones leads to way more pleasant and adoring HB8s. Everyone knows you give up the insane ones when you give up the video games daily.

    Now pinball and an HB8? I can do that nightly.

    As for the Beretta, it’s not my own firearm I like traveling with, just the preferred one.

    Oh, I’ll be in New York next weekend, Miami the week after, LA the week after and Vegas twice in March and April — if you live in any of these cities, let’s meet up and you can tell me these things to my face. If not, just tell me where you’re at and I’m sure I can come up with a good reason to go there.

  • A.B. Dada

    In my experience, height matters way more than looks in terms of getting more women to actively open a guy. I’m relatively short, and when I go out with taller guy friends, even if they’re fat and ugly and poorly dressed, they get opened just due to their height.

    That being said, I would say that 50% of ugly guys are ugly because they don’t even bother. Bad haircuts, terrible clothes, off posture, slightly overweight, should shave/grow a beard, etc. It bothers me to no end when I have to criticize a friend who complains about meeting women — “you look like a total loser. Fix that.”

  • Dan

    The 3 primary goals most people have are Financial, Health, and Relationships. For men the main reason why (as a motive to do the actions involved) that they want Money and Fitness, is usually for Sex. Therefore, as in this Rationalmale example, connecting improved Fitness with more Sex as the benefit to him is the reason why that will increase his desire to exercise to get in better shape so he is more attractive (physically and confidence) to women for more sex. For the guys who want to lose some weight (not to get into a fitness debate) as a starting point he can consider using the “Harris-Benedict Equation x Exercise amount and then subtract 20%” for an estimate of the number of calories to consume a day to lose weight (or find another equation), for example I’m 5’9″ and to lose 10 pounds in the next 2 months I will consume 2000 calories a day 6 days a week and 2500 calories 1 day a week on a heavy lifting day and I write in a notebook every day an estimate of calories and review it often to stay in this target range. On second thought, if losing about 10 lbs makes the male anatomy look say an inch bigger then losing 20 lbs is the way to go. Also, in addition to losing bodyfat weight, maybe carefully trimming below the belt might make it look larger. Cutting out sugar, etc, is beneficial to not take in extra calories, although it can be debated I’m not a fan of low carbs (at least not for over a few months of calorie/carb cycling), as some now say carbs don’t have to go below say 60grams/day on a possible low carb cycling day maybe once or twice a week to better maintain or increase muscles, (on fitness blogs and in the media Carbs are a huge debate), I consume over at least 140grams Carbs/day daily (most carbs in the AM before every workout and carbs with protein after LIFTING days for brain and muscle function and still lose weight and build muscles, and I have gotten ripped before taking in way over 200grams of carbs a day while Benching over 300lbs/Deadlift over 300lbs/Squats over 400lbs, so I focus more on the calories and getting enough protein. When you design your exercise program (to lose weight and/or to gain muscle) it will likely include at least 4 days of Lifting and at least 3 days of HIIT cardio (such as, Jog/Sprint, or Bike slow/Bike Fast > for example, 1 or 2 minutes slower and 30 seconds to 1 minute Sprint/Fast for around 20 minutes), you can also throw in an additional at least 10 to 20 minutes of steady-state cardio 3 to 7 days a week (Walk, Bike, Jog, etc, yup even Venue changes count as Cardio), and write the exercises you are going to do that day in a notebook. It is said to not eat Carbs for 2 hours after HIIT CARDIO (just Water and Protein until 2 hours later) to increase HGH for increased sex-drive. When you research and make your nutrition program don’t be surprised if it includes, Chicken/Eggs/Turkey/at least 8 cups Water daily/Vegetables (Lettuce, etc)/Avocado/Nuts/Spices (garlic is good, but use mouthwash before Opening)/and some Fruit (Banana, Orange, etc), Coffee, Green Tea. The good thing about exercising consistently every day (schedule in around at least 60 minutes daily and make it a habit (review your notebooks daily) is you will notice improvements in only 3 months. Aside from more women being sexually attracted to you, you will be stronger and feel much better about yourSELF.

  • King A's Bastard Son

    I’ll be in London next weekend, Paris the weekend after, Madrid the week after and Moscow twice in March and April. I’ll be carrying my Walther PPK and my special briefcase, provided to me by Q Branch…sorry, our agents carry briefcases, not purses…can you find a good reason to go to one of these cities? I’m sure they’re already on your schedule.

    Dolt !

  • hot tip

    For the record, Dada lives in suburban Illinois.

  • Flahute

    Great. For cardio, cycling is great because it burns 600+ calories an hour and is non-impact training (unlike running). Bike racers typically train 5 days a week, resting on Monday and Friday, doing various (interval, tempo) workouts on Tue, Wed, Thu and long rides on Sat and Sun. Dedication to the bike means riding 8-10 hours per week. If you can’t commit to that, ride at least 3 days, 5-6 hours a week. The key is consistency. For fat loss I recommend pacing yourself each ride in the “sweet spot”, roughly 55-60% of your maximum effort. A friend of mine has an excellent web site called the Science of Sport and an article which explains the sweet spot and much more. Riding what we call endurance pace you can still carry on a conversation (40-50% effort), riding “tempo”, you are actually breathing hard for a long interval without burning out (at ~85% effort). The sweet spot for fat burning is somewhere in between those two.

    Normally I would ask you several questions about your riding and fitness level, to give you a more precise training plan, but in lieu of that, I will say the basic parameters are to ride 5 days a week in the sweet spot and increase your volume (mileage) week over week by no more than 10%. Shorter rides on weekdays and your long rides on the weekend. Start with however long you can ride on a weekday and extend yourself on long rides from there. Long rides should be 1.5-2x as long as your “short” weekday rides.

    If you don’t love riding, this is not for you.

    Technique is also important because it makes you more efficient and you gain fitness more quickly. A quick search found this article which has the diagram (fig. 2) I was looking for about the correct pedal stroke.

    Log everything. Mileage, time on the road, avg. speed, outdoor temps, clothing worn. It helps your motivation. Weigh yourself every morning before you step into the shower, record it daily and calculate a 10 day moving average of your weight. Not to obsess about it, but to gather data and adapt. Your weight can fluctuate by as much as 2 pounds day to day and that can tell you when you are getting dehydrated or over-training and allow you to adjust. The 10 day moving average is a better measure of your weight loss over time. There are a lot of cycling resources on the web if you look. Joe Friel wrote the bible on serious training.

    I will add one more thing. If you like cycling, don’t just ride, race. Compete. If you like strength training, don’t just lift, compete. Another one of the things I admire about Rollo: he competes in his chosen sport. Compete, otherwise you’re just fucking around.

  • jack

    girl:
    “I bet he’s got a small dick!!”

    reply:
    “only a girl who’s experienced a lot of dick would have such finely honed instincts”

  • Leap of a Beta

    Cool. I’ll check out the links.

    Definitely agree with competing. Been in sports majority of my life. Such good motivation.

  • Thoughts on Looks & Game | Generation Nihilism

    [...] Rollo delved into the realm of Looks & Game with his post “Looks Count“. I highly recommend reading it if you haven’t already. More importantly, I highly [...]

  • dragnet

    Whatever floats your boat. Those sites are just information—use it how you see fit.

    The gain-weight-muscle-fast site is still a great source for what exercises you may want to consider doing. What most people don’t know is that how much (muscle) weight you gain is much more dependent on your caloric intake (composition and quantity) than the actual exercises you do—although the workout is obviously key as well. So you can use the workout routines from that site and couple it with a more modest and lean diet to see strength gains without bulking up, as it were.

    As for toning up, that’s depends on getting rid of fat ie, cardio. Once again, I recommend interval training. I used to be a short distance sprinter myself—internal training is the best way to go, bar none.

  • Socialkenny

    At first I thought this was an article exclusively saying that you have to have a Mike the Situation body to pick up chics.Good points were made though.

  • Jhon Holmes

    I am curios what teh value of a big penis is to women. Or at least to those who really like them. A quarter of a point on a scale of one to ten or half or one or two?

  • Heartiste

    “I’ve talked about EXACTLY this shit at Roissy’s…and soon found my comments in moderation.”

    jesus. chill dude. everyone gets moderated to keep out the spam and trolls. you’re not special, nor did you say anything to offend anyone’s biases. your comment is in there somewhere, just go back and check around.

    rollo, re: looks, you should separate face from body. it’s not that hard to improve one’s body (it really isn’t; takes about three months effort amounting to 3 hours per week to show noticeable results), but fixing the face is, well, pretty much impossible. and studies have shown that it’s really only the men in the top 5% of facial looks who get direct, solicitous attention from women. that leaves 95% of men out of the running if facial looks are the biggest factor to getting laid. of course, that’s nonsense, as we can easily observe a healthy percentage of those less-than-ideal 95%ers getting laid.

    so, if you’re in the top 5% of facial looks (think ryan gosling or george clooney), sure, go ahead and just stand around and be yourself, aka shut your mouth. you don’t need much game to land one night stands (you *will* however, need game to keep her around, as even the best looking men bore women if they turn to the beta side.)

    but if you’re like most men, i.e., not ryan gosling in looks, then game will give you the biggest bang for your buck. i differ with you on which should be emphasized, because i saw a marked increase in my success as my game got better that dwarfed the increase in my success as my physique improved. but there’s nothing stopping men from pursuing improvement in both looks and game simultaneously. since game concepts are harder to grasp and intuit than body building concepts, the net is growing with blogs expounding on the former in greater detail, on average, than the latter.

    in my experience, the biggest boost from weightlifting does not come from looking better to women (although there is that), but from feeling more confident and on top of the world. women then sense this radiating confidence and are drawn to it, plus you approach more women with a better attitude. it’s a self-reinforcing positivity feedback loop that manifests as a shit-eating grin, puffed chest and upturned chin.

    finally, i wouldn’t put too much emphasis on any one particular study if doing so has the effect of deemphasizing the findings of other SMP studies in your readers’ attention spans. Hasselton’s study is fine, but nothing new. There is a mountain of evidence out there about female short vs long term mating strategies. the main issue with such studies is that they don’t control for men using game. male subjects in these types of studies are basically your average herbs, who have no clue about game concepts or how to use them. a man with tight game can throw a monkey wrench into the observation that STR seeking women favor muscly jocks. but, sure, compared to the average herb, STR women will flock to the jock.

    In addition to Hasselton’s et all findings, I have posted numerous studies that have basically proven core concepts of game. Overconfidence, for instance, is a reproductive fitness maximizer for men. And calculated uncertainty — a major game principle — is an attraction trigger in women. this is hard science, not field reporting by self-described PUAs (not to say the latter doesn’t have merit.)

    anyone who questions CH ecred on this matter need only re-peruse the original “dating market value test for men” where it was laid out, in clear language, the attractiveness traits that women find most desirable. no one needs a study to notice some very basic and identifiable trends in what women respond to in men. in order of importance, it goes like this:

    – fame (trumps everything else)
    – social or political power, high social status (power is an aphrodisiac)
    – vast, ostentatious wealth (still matters, but you need to be in the top 0.001%. top 1% won’t cut it anymore.)
    – sociosexual power, aka game, charisma, douchery, irrational confidence (yes, i would place this above physique except in cases where the man is far from the ideal male body type, cf jonah hill)
    – facial looks (tied with sociosexual power. a 5%er facially good-looking man will trump a muscle-bound man and a beta learning game)
    – physique (no doubt a lean muscular man will turn on women more than a fat man)
    – humor (chicks dig the funny, which is probably why so many fat men are funny)
    – wit (smart chicks dig the wit)
    – smarts (more as a proxy for provider ability)
    – dependability (chicks looking for LTRs will value this)
    – kindness/altruism (see above)

    one last note. I have an acquaintance who is a mesomorph straight out of central casting. the guy lifts like crazy and is built like the rock of gibraltar, square, heavy jaw, broad shoulders, all the stuff that STR women crave according to Hasselton. When he goes out, women do check him out. some will even feel his biceps.

    but he has the soul of a beta. by that i mean he’s a pedestalizer and a softie at heart. he has zero game and generally relies on social circle hookups. he can make a crowd laugh, but he’s sort of a goofball who leans too much on self-deprecation. he compliments girls constantly, and has no idea how to coyly flirt. girls date him, but he has trouble keeping his relationships going more than a few months. he has told me that some girls he dates keep other guys on the side concurrently. my take: the girls got bored and move on. his relative failure with women beyond what you’d expect a guy like him to experience caused him to retreat into a shell of ever-growing betaness. a negative feedback loop ensued that wasn’t rectified until he got a big promotion and cashed in his newfound status for a chick coworker.

    now i will tell you the opposite scenario. i also know a guy who is a natural. that is, he runs game without knowing it (contra anti-gamers, naturals *do* run game. the difference is that naturals picked up the basic concepts and techniques earlier in life, so game became a part of their core personalities that cemented by their early 20s.) he negged and backturned and teased and did all the things that build attraction in women. he was never without a hot girlfriend. then, over a period of a year, he let himself go and got kind of fat. his confidence (based on his past experience) didn’t waver, though. he remained his charming bastard self and women still responded positively. if things got tougher for him in the dating market, he never let on. I suspect they did to a degree, because he once complained that he needed to do something about his love handles. overall, though, his sex life did not take a huge hit.

    moral of the story: which man would you rather be, if you had to choose? the masculine-looking beta who struggles to keep girls entranced, or the flabby natural with a knack for landing ladies who loses a couple of prospects after his weight gain? it’s not a cut-and-dried answer.

  • xsplat

    And yet lately on your blog you’ve been agreeing with Yareally that all attraction reduces down to nothing other than confidence.

  • xsplat

    And yet lately on your blog you’ve been agreeing with Yareally that all attraction reduces down to nothing other than confidence.

  • Solo

    *Claps*

    Rollo has been saying this for years on Sosuave, as well as most of the other respected members who get it or successful in the game i.e. Backbreaker, Fingz, Pook. Guru1000 etc. Guru1000 was the one who kept drilling it into my head that no matter how good my game is/was. I would be doing myself a disservice by staying “husky”. Hence I’ve been working out like a mad men cause I know Guru and Rollo etc are right

    Not to hijack the post, but as a guy I’ve been on both sides. The guy women would fuck cause he was decent shape and now I’m the fat guy. And while I still pull the caliber/quality isn’t the same when I was on top of my game. Here’s proof that looks matter

    http://thesoloist1.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/physique-matters/

    notice how the girls go ape shit when my buddy takes his shirt off, how many men can say they would get the same reaction? I know I wouldn’t.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I don’t think we’re as out of concordance as you might think.

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/mr-perfect/

    Read the part where I mention the guy Jake. A pronounced beta mindset will self-defeat even the best looking of men.

    Looks.

    Assets.

    Game.

    Have two. Three is best, but if you only have one, Game is the most essential.

    My main point in writing this was to draw attention to the necessity of getting in shape as an element of attraction, not to the exclusion of any other, and particularly Game. As has been pointed out in the comments here, getting in shape is the one men have the most direct control over of these three, yet often the most neglected.

    As per your illustrations, if you’ve got a guy who’s deficient in looks, but has tight Game, he’s probably getting laid. If you have a good looking guy, but he’s not Game-aware, he’s probably getting laid on his looks. But if you’ve got two guys both with comparable Game, the guy who’s getting laid is most likely the one with the lower body fat percentage and a nice face.

    However, I would argue that a guy who’s gotten into shape’s attraction is more than just a psychosomatic result of his increased confidence. If a guy becomes more attractive to a woman he knew prior to his physical transformation you may have a case, but when a guy is consistently drawing attention from women he doesn’t know, where he hadn’t before, there’s more than just a confidence element to it.

    Women like hot guys. If his confidence makes him hot, so be it, but women stuffing dollars in the g-strings of Chippendale’s dancer’s thongs don’t care about his confidence levels. The hormones and tingles got stimulated by his physique. This is why Hasselton’s research is significant, it removes the element of knowing anything about the subjects and reduces the attraction to the physical.

  • xsplat

    Also, you seem to confuse the cause and effect of muscles/confidence/attraction. You think that muscles lead to confidence, and it is the confidence that leads to attraction.

    But there is a reason muscles lead to attraction. It’s because men who’ve built muscles immediately get better feedback from women. The feedback from women is what builds the confidence, and then this leads to the feedback loop you speak of. Without the muscles being attractive in and of themselves, there would be no feedback loop.

    The same goes for money. Money doesn’t make you confident which makes you attractive. Money makes you attractive which makes you confident which leads to a feedback loop.

    This is a major flaw in your theory, and your support of this flaw is a huge gaping hole in your game theory.

  • xsplat

    Should read “But there is a reason muscles lead to attraction confidence.

  • Heartiste

    “If a guy becomes more attractive to a woman he knew prior to his physical transformation you may have a case, but when a guy is consistently drawing attention from women he doesn’t know, where he hadn’t before, there’s more than just a confidence element to it.”

    no argument there, but it’s better to look at it as a feedback loop. lift –> higher T –> more confidence –> more attraction from women. combine that algorithm with this: lift –> better body –> more attraction from women –> more confidence, and you can see how the two work in concert to the man’s benefit. that is, both the confidence *and* the better body are improving his interactions with women. the two phenomena feed off each other.

    you could say a similar thing about the trajectory of learning game. the beta starts off faking it, gets positive feedback, builds confidence, and suddenly he’s not faking his game anymore.

    re: chippendales, most girls i’ve talked to about that have left me with the impression that chippendales nights out are more “jokey” for women, and less about satisfying a primal horniness urge. you’ll also notice that the main attraction at clubs like chippendale’s are the lavish roles the dancers play, and the elaborate staging and costumes. this is in keeping with the evopsych theory that women require a suite of attractiveness traits in men and looks are just one component of that, and probably not the most important.

    in contrast, male oriented strip clubs are more about getting boners for men. men go to leer at hot naked babes and then wack off at home to the memory of those writhing bodies. men will visit strip clubs either alone or with a few friends. women tend to go to chippendale’s in huge groups of girlfriends, behaving as if it’s a massive social function rather than a titillation for their pussies.

    that said, certainly it stands to reason that chippendale’s dancers will be fit rather than fat. a good body helps lube the other parts of women’s fantasies that rely more on the man’s personality and savvy.

  • xsplat

    I’ve had girls meet me after being away for a few years and show unconcealed disappointment when I’d lost bulk. And a few times I’ve gone from a bony rib-ridden chest to toned and bulked and seen the positive effect on both the girls I was already boning, and others.

    I took a few months off from training lately due to a move and taking my time to find a gym. I lose the weight faster than I put it on. My girl is wary to see it come back – she claims she doesn’t want to see me get too big. This is of course code for she doesn’t want other women to find me attractive. When I’m buff she can’t control her excitement to see me take my shirt off.

    Women know the score. Once the man is hooked, they usually try to fatten him up and get him lazy.

  • Heartiste

    xsplat, i have posted a study that concluded, straight out, that male overconfidence is a reproductive fitness maximizer. that is, overconfidence ITSELF really will help a man get laid. it really is a turn-on for women. so you need to revisit your priors, as the net nerds might say.

  • xsplat

    And in the comment section on that post I agreed with you that confidence is attractive.

    Don’t you remember my snide remark about understanding the concept of AND?

    Confidence is attractive AND other traits are ALSO attractive?

    And yet here you are again insisting on a black and white either or conception, and again trying to reduce all attraction down to nothing other than confidence.

    Yes, confidence is attractive. Must that be agreed with a million times before you admit that other things are attractive in and of themselves?

  • Good Luck Chuck

    As roissy pointed out it is often as much about the confidence that looking good gives you as it is the looks itself.

    Another thing you have to factor in is the fact that being in shape accentuates masculinity. I can put on a fair amount of muscle and my body starts to look better, but when I get below a certain body fat threshold I get blatantly hit on by women. The difference is night and day and I attribute much of this to my face taking on a more masculine appearance.

  • Heartiste

    “And yet here you are again insisting on a black and white either or conception, and again trying to reduce all attraction down to nothing other than confidence.”

    you can stop putting words in my mouth anytime. please cite the passage where i wrote “all attraction comes down to nothing other than confidence”. tapping foot…
    fyi, what i actually wrote was that overconfidence is the core of game. that is not the same thing as the strawman you composed about me.

    for the studio audience and your edification, here’s the assertion by you that i was responding to:

    “Also, you seem to confuse the cause and effect of muscles/confidence/attraction. You think that muscles lead to confidence, and it is the confidence that leads to attraction.”

    that’s not what i wrote. what i think is what i actually wrote, which you seem to have trouble parsing. namely, confidence and a better body act synergistically and in a feedback loop to reinforce each other, and attract women. the better body gets more glances from women, AND the higher confidence gets better responses from women. additionally, the higher T from lifting increases confidence which *in itself* is attractive to women.

    now i’m not going to respond to you any more because i have a sneaking suspicion you will ignore everything i just wrote here in favor of your own special narrative.

  • xsplat

    You’re really stretching. Or should I say heavily emphasizing some aspect of attraction that are psychologically oriented in order to devalue the aspects that are not.

    This is a glaring bias, that harms your more familiar clear sighted insight.

    You pull the same bias against other aspects of attraction, such as money – spinning them all towards the type of game you usually talk about.

    The chipendales dancers are not fat because it’s a girls night out thing, or because it helps them to fantasize the men as having better personalities.

    Get a grip man.

  • xsplat

    Yes, I see you wrote that comment here just now, agreeing that an initial reason for the confidence boost is because the muscles are in and of themselves attractive, an that this leads to positive feedback from women, which increases confidence.

    You’ve never said that before.

    Here is the quote you asked for, from your site http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/overconfidence-is-the-heart-of-game/#comment-305137

    where you say
    “[heartiste: women didn't evolve over the millennia with a taste for dollar bills and nice cars. these things didn't exist in the EEA. what they *did* evolve is an attraction for the attitude and mannerism of the powerful man. since the currency by which power is communicated changes all the time on large enough time scales, evolution has ensured that the best way for women to determine among men who is powerful and who is not is to be turned on by those male psychological traits that normally accompany a powerful position in life. thus, women are attracted to the confidence of powerful men, and not the credentials, salary or number of underlings that a modern day powerful man would have. overconfidence is simply confidence without the conventional societal metrics to back it up. and as this study shows, women are attracted to the overconfidence ITSELF.]”

    And this reply of yours was directly as a response to me saying that YES confidence is attractive, but that other traits are also attractive. I took your response to therefore be a rebuttal – that you were saying that no, there is nothing other than confidence that is attractive.

    I’ve been very clear that I agree that confidence is attractive. Yet when I “debate” yareally on the subject, agree that confidence is attractive, and point out that OTHER things that don’t reduce down to confidence are also attractive, you apparently side with the dolt.

    Good to see you being more reasonable. Hope that new found logic shows up on your blog.

    And

  • dc1000

    BAHAHA +10000!

  • dc1000

    I’m obese as well.

    6’4 265 and wear a 38 inch jean.

    make any sense? none.

  • xsplat

    14 – 24 years old: Looks are EVERYTHING

    That doesn’t seem to be the case in all cultures. There are still places where virgins marry at 20. And I’ve seen money have an effect on both the words women say about potential prospects and the twinkle in their eye when they are of that young age.

  • xsplat

    As roissy pointed out it is often as much about the confidence that looking good gives you as it is the looks itself.

    There is a definite feedback loop. And testosterone likely enters into it as well, which also increases with confidence, to heighten the feedback loop.

    But there is never any need to say that what attraction is “really” about is confidence. It’s about a lot of things. Confidence being a very important part of those things.

    Men get confident for a reason. It doesn’t come out of thin air, or by accident. Money makes us confident because the power over resources is in and of itself attractive. Not because it makes us confident.

    The magic word is AND. Not or, and not yes but. AND.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    But there is never any need to say that what attraction is “really” about is confidence. It’s about a lot of things. Confidence being a very important part of those things.

    Yes and no. Confidence is a byproduct of success but it is a primary attraction trigger.

    For example, women aren’t physically turned on by money. They are turned on by the aura of money. Women aren’t turned on by status and power, they are turned on by the aura of status and power. Confidence IS the aura of these things and it is a shortcut, a “filtering mechanism” that allows women to ascertain quickly whether a man is a suitable mate.

    That’s why it is so powerful.

  • dc1000

    Starting Strength. Rippetoe.

    Thats all ya need.

  • xsplat

    I disagree. A woman can want to partake of the mans wealthy lifestyle – not just his powerful aura.

    There is science to back up that money when held by a man makes the man more attractive. Not that the money translates first into something else, such as confidence. The studies show it’s the money.

    Now money may ALSO make the man more confident. But then we are talking about ANOTHER thing that is ALSO attractive.

    In and of itself, money makes men more attractive. The same man with the same confidence level and the same aura of power will do better with money than without it.

    Men have a difficult time conceiving of this because we don’t in any way find money to make a woman sexually appealing.

    A fat wallet is like a womans breasts. Large perky breasts make us attracted to HER more. We aren’t just attracted to her breasts, and we aren’t attracted to her because her breasts make her more confident. She is a more valuable person because of her breasts.

  • xsplat

    And to forestall the yes-but that always comes after pointing this out – this does not mean that a man must have money to be attractive, or that a poor man can’t out-compete a rich man. There are many attractive traits – there is no need to say yes-but after any trait other than confidence is mentioned.

    All things being exactly equal, money in and of itself, and looks in and of themselves, make a man more attractive. And not just a bit – the difference can be dramatic.

  • Doc

    While the breakdown is pretty good, I would say that women respond a lot more to what other women respond to, and are receptive more to outside influence. So if you enter a club with a hottie on your arm, the other women will instantly be attracted to you – mostly because of their competitive natures.

    But my point is that while looks are important, there are several other components to that. I’m average in looks,but tend to have my pick of women – mostly because I have done my homework, and know various people. So if you go into a club, wave to someone and they bring out a table for you, that ups your points by a lot, since suddenly every woman wants to know who this guy is. Mystery, intrigue, excitement… That will do more to get the little cuties nibbling at the bait, than looks since looks are common and the attractive women get enough interest from that group. Give them something unique, and it’s like catnip to them…

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I disagree. A woman can want to partake of the mans wealthy lifestyle – not just his powerful aura.

    Wanting to partake of a wealthy lifestyle does not equate to gina tingle. In other words it isn’t true attraction, at least not the kind you want to try to build.

    I am all about using wealth/status/power game. I know from firsthand experience that this is by far the most powerful game there is. However, if you don’t bring the “inner” game to back it up you will be nothing more than a walking wallet to some less-than-sexually-enthusiastic women.

    Trading dollars directly for pussy is one way to get laid but it isn’t the best way. You have to leverage your assets to maximize your return. The deadly combo is to possess the rock solid confidence that should come along with WSP but also have the goods to back it up.

    The Game is God crowd would like to ignore wealth/status/power and you would like to ignore game, but the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. If you HAVE true WSP to back up your game and game to back up your WSP you will be unstoppable.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    That’s a good point and I think Rollo tends to overplay the looks thing a little, at least in comparison to other things such as status and power which absolutely steamroll looks if you have them in high enough quantity.

    I do agree that looks are more important than the game community makes them out to be, especially for short term opportunities. This should just go to underscore the fact that if you want to be really successful in many aspects of life you should be working on yourself as an entire package- looks, money, status, and game.

  • xsplat

    I don’t know why you say that wealth doesn’t promote gina tingle.

    I agree that unless you have other attributes in place, money alone might not be enough to trigger the tingle. However studies have shown that money does indeed trigger the tingle. Deeper orgasms too.

    I see I was not able to forestall your crossing yourself against the devil when wealth was mentioned. The protective habit goes like this: Money is attractive? That’s the devil – quick – make the sign of the PUA Cross! “Yes-but-game!”

    As I said, men can’t even imagine how money is sexual.

    Women do. The science has proven it – again and again.

  • xsplat

    I think one of the problems that men have empathizing with women’s sexual reaction to wealth, and therefore getting an intuitive grasp of it, is that men don’t see wealth as a character attribute.

    Women, however, do.

    For a woman, a man’s wealth is an attribute of the whole man, and changes the value of that man, and how they see him.

    Men chaff at this idea – we think it’s demeaning and crass. Women SHOULDN’T think that way. If they do they are just cheap gold diggers.

    But women are built to see wealth as a character attribute. Their brains wire up a different mind.

    To help men imagine this, I use that male analogy for this. Men consider breasts to be an attribute of the woman. Women sometimes chaff at this – don’t judge me for my tits! See the real me! But if the girl has great tits, we’ll put up with a great deal more character flaws, plus we’ll get physically turned on easier. Sure, she won’t be able to rely 100% on her tits, but they add a lot to the whole package – often enough to tip the balance in her favor.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Dude…..I will be the first to tell you that money is an attraction trigger, BUT……

    1) Trying to rely on money itself to attract women and keep them around is a fool’s game. I’m going out with a guy tonight who does this. Sure, he’s 45 years old and has an attractive much younger girlfriend, but she doesn’t respect him and would not be with him if it weren’t for the money. I know this because she’s a friend of mine and it she makes it pretty obvious.

    2) The trappings of wealth undoubtedly get women’s attention but you aren’t going to be able to convince me that they are any more than peripherally related to pussy lubing physical attraction. It’s the secondary traits that usually accompany wealth (confidence and social proof) that get women aroused.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I agree but I still believe that it is personality traits and how other people react toward the man that really amps the attraction.

  • xsplat

    Science disagrees with you. Studies have been done that control for that. Money itself amps up attraction.

    You can show women pictures of the same man, and change the backstory regarding his wealth, and attraction as measured by self reporting and physical cues will be different.

    Also women orgasm harder for wealthy men. And on and on.

    But if you don’t want to believe the science – even the science that controls for the variables you mention – then that is no longer about being interested in facts, but about choosing what beliefs are the most comfortable.

  • YaReally

    Jesus. Where to even begin.

    “The first thing most men who were previously out of shape will tell you is the marked increase in attention they receive from women after they got in shape. This is perhaps the simplest experiment that puts the lie to this assertion.*”

    fucking brilliant. Case closed. The attraction the guys get DEFINITELY isn’t from:

    – their increased confidence they exude
    – the better body language they have now that they aren’t shuffling fat around
    – the obvious increase in love for themselves and their body they have
    – the fact that it shows that they’re a man who can set and achieve goals and has determination and willpower
    – the way that they’re not ashamed to make eye contact anymore because they don’t feel people are judging them as worthless
    – the fact that they are so socially conditioned to believe that looks matter that being in shape they literally convince themselves that logically of COURSE girls should be attracted to them. And what do we call that? “assume attraction”. Core concept. “what you feel she feels”.

    This is such a dumb argument I can’t even believe its still going on, let alone written authoritatively to further fuck men up. Why not just tell them to go get money and a 6-pack and surgery to gain a few inches of height? Because there are definitely no cases of rich good looking tall guys who can’t get laid. Except oh no wait, there are a ton. Go out and spend time in rich social circles and watch the depressing shitshow.

    Here’s the concept: if you believe to your core that having your lucky dime, your cool dragon shirt, your 6-pack, etc makes you attractive to women then when you don’t have those things you will not be attractive to them because you will not believe you are attractive since youve created the formula.

    If you obtain those things, then you become attractive to women. The dime, shirt, 6-pack are not attractive themselves. It’s what they do to your internal psyche and how they change your subcommunications.

    If you take someone who thinks the dragon shirt is pimp and let him wear it, he feels pimp an his subcommunications change to reflect that, which changes how girls respond to him. Cue any drunk jock frat boy who thinks his retarded hat costume toga thing etc are pimp.

    If you put that same item on a nerd who thinks it’s stupid and dumb or has no value, nothing will change.

    This is perfectly fine. If you value looks a ton, go get a 6-pack, it will help you. But what will you base your confidence on when you lose some teeth in a fight or get old or get busy with work and can’t maintain your 7% body fat? Oh shit, it’s gone. Cause you base your worth on external things instead of the actuality which is that you are enough.

  • xsplat

    Dude…..I will be the first to tell you that money is an attraction trigger,

    No, you would be the first to tell me that money leads to secondary characteristics which are attractive. Characteristics that you don’t need money to develop.

  • YaReally

    P.S. surf the bodybuilding.com forums Misc and Relationship sections and read posts by the Forever Aloners. Fucktons of guys who look better than any of us commenters here will ever look in our lives, who can’t get girls. Some of them make a shitload of money too.

    There are guys there who are like “man at 8% body fat I wasn’t getting looks from any girls. But at 7% wow they all love me!!!”. Do you really think girls all over can tell the difference between 7 and 8 % bodyfat? And suddenly the 1% difference makes their ginas all tingle? Or do you think maybe the guys didn’t like themselves at 8% so they convinced themselves there were no looks coming their way and talked themselves out of it the way an AFC will talk himself out of noticing a girl’s IOI’s because he doesn’t think he’s attractive enough to get them, and when he likes himself more his reticular activation system picks up on the signals more and believes he deserves them?

    No, you’re right, better hit the gym and get rid of this gut I’ve had since I started gaming and have taken girls off better looking guys routinely. Shit, my main wingman is a 6’4″ natural with a 6-pack and I can take girls from him when my game is tight. I fisted a girl the other night after taking her to a McDonalds and making her pay for my cheeseburger meal.

    Anyone here purposely gained a bunch of weight and then approached girls already talking to really good looking rich guys to try to take them? Anyone? Anyone here gone out purposely unshowered with messy hair and dirty dressed-down clothes and still confidently approached the hottest girls in the club? Anyone here told girls you work at McDonalds when they ask what you do for a living? Anyone here told girls you still live with your parents at 30+?

    Shit like this is why the “DJ”s are way behind in pickup tech. Too concerned with not getting rejected and protecting the “I’m like James Bond” ego to really push the limits and see what’s possible.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Science disagrees with you. Studies have been done that control for that. Money itself amps up attraction.

    I am vaguely aware of the studies you are are talking about but I can’t remember the specifics. Were these studies done with equipment that measures physiological changes in the body (changes in brain activity in attraction centers, vaginal lubrication, body temp etc.) or did they just ask the women “who do you like better?”

    If they didn’t measure physical arousal then there wasn’t proper control.

  • YaReally

    The moment you start talking about scientific studies is the moment you advertise that you don’t go out and pick up regularly.

    I’m sure for a desperate 3rd world import chick, money is enough to make her fake being into you to get her greencard…I mean, that’s your situ isn’t it?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2088767/G-spot-scientists-60-years.html

    “Scientific studies” say there’s no G-Spot too. The chick I fucked a few days ago who left my bedsheets drenched while we were literally sitting in pools of her squirting, would probably disagree.

    Maybe she was just super turned on because I took her to a McDonald’s and made her pay for our food, clearly displaying my millions of dollars.

    Maybe it was the super sexy 6-pack abs I have hidden under my big hairy beer belly.

    Or maybe you’re still a keyboard jockey who should go out more before you start spouting your bullshit advice as fact and fucking with guys who look at these blogs for help improving their lives.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    The moment you start talking about scientific studies is the moment you advertise that you don’t go out and pick up regularly.

    blahblahblahblahblahblahblah…..same can be said for a guy who has nothing better to do than to write paragraph upon paragraph of comments to prove his “alphaness” to a bunch of keyboard jockeys.

  • A.B. Dada

    For the record, I have 7 offices in Illinois.

    The one I am at now is at 2118 S. Halsted, Chicago IL 60608. I’m here every Monday from 7am to 2pm when I am in Chicago.

    Come visit.

  • Fearless

    I’ve been on those threads but I thought the Forever Alone tag was a joke. Speaking of, they have a great motivation thread to get guys pumped to hit the iron. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=126915643&s=c45e04197b0ee52e2600036da447abbc Gets me pumped everytime.

  • NahReally

    Don’t care if you think I’m alpha or not, my points are still grounded in solid experience and if you spend enough time in the field you’ll see that.

    Going out once a week to your regular bar to get hammered with your bros and occasionally chatting up a couple girls here and there isn’t experience. Chatting up girls on online dating sites isn’t experience. Reading game blogs and field reports isn’t experience.

  • NahReally

    It’s a joke tag because it’s turned into a meme but do some digging and you’ll find a ton of guys on there who’ve got incredible bodies but so many internal issues that they have no success with women or are still virgins at 30 etc.

    Why is a woman attracted to one muscular dude and not another muscular dude? It’s clearly not the muscles that are attractive, duh.

    Why is a woman attracted to one rich dude and not another rich dude? It’s clearly not the money that’s attractive, duh.

    Why is a woman attracted to one guy in a fuzzy hat who thinks it makes him awesome and not another guy in a fuzzy hat who thinks he looks stupid? It’s not the hat that’s attractive, duh.

    If we keep boiling things down way past the external superficial surface what do we end up at? Confidence.

  • Pavlov

    I also found Page 4 very fascinating. Particularly how women will alter their preferences for how much investment they feel they can get from the mate, and if they need any investment. If I read that correctly, they will (ugly chicks) lower their alpha expectations/requirements if they don’t think they can get much investment from one.
    Smart ass time: This explains HUS

    Yes!

  • Peacemaker

    Especially with our nation’s obesity rate, maintaining a lean, muscular build will separate you from most men.

  • Moral to the Manosphere «

    [...] of the field – I catch as much or more vitriol from the manosphere when I post something like Looks Count or Women’s Physical Standards and the importance women actually do place on a man’s [...]

  • FrustratedShortMan

    At 5’5″, I strike out with women all the time. I’m in great shape (former weightlifter with a V chest, etc.), but it doesn’t matter – short = genetic death!

  • The Manosphere Matrix « Random Xpat Rantings

    [...] studies show that a buff body is in and of itself attractive independently of confidence (as Rollo made a post about), the religion is that this is so because the buff body makes the man confident. And on and on – [...]

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