Looks Count

“Your bulletproof Game and charming personality wont make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”

Looks.

Assets.

Game.

Have two. Three is best, but if you only have one, Game is the most essential.

I realize that I’m heading into dangerous territory with this, but I maintain that looks are an integral part of attraction – sorry, that’s a fact of life – but I’ve never stated that looks cancel Game. In fact I advocate that learning Game is just as necessary as maintaining a good physique.

The problem is with people who can only think in absolutes. It’s always an either-or proposition; Game trumps physique or physique trumps game is horse shit. They’re both important and play off each other. There are plenty of average looking guys who pull tail thanks to Game in spite of their looks, and there are also good-looking guys who pull tail without ever hearing what Game is. But wouldn’t you rather be the guy with both? The guy who can pull women without compensating for personal deficits?

Consider that greater than 66% of people in western society are overweight (33% are morbidly obese). So it stands to reason that 2/3rd of the guys seeking out the community in order to change their lives, outlook and sexual prospects are going to be struggling with obesity from the outset. Now also consider the preferred belief among guys that looks, at least, matter less than personality, Game, etc. in female attraction. This is NOT a coincidence. For these guys it takes more effort to change their bodies than to change their minds.

“Looks aren’t as important for women

The first thing most men who were previously out of shape will tell you is the marked increase in attention they receive from women after they got in shape. This is perhaps the simplest experiment that puts the lie to this assertion.*

There is a popular misconception men adopt in thinking that “looks aren’t as important for women” and that they’re more forgiving of a few extra pounds if a guy is witty, humorous and/or embodies some combination of the laundry list of nonsensical adjectives they place on their online dating profiles. This is the male version of the body image acceptance social convention women have been promoting themselves for the past 50 years. Don’t worry about getting in shape; money, humor and confidence will make any woman swoon for you. If this were the case the Louie Andersons and Danny Devitos of the world would be swimming in top-shelf poon. I have no doubt that very rich, but out of shape men have a relatively easy time attracting women, but they can’t make a woman genuinely desire to fuck him on a physical level. It’s just the very commercial version of negotiating desire.

While this may seem like a male-specific social convention, guess again; it’s actually a very calculated feminine convention. In terms of feminine breeding strategies and women’s schedules of mating, it is far more advantageous for a woman to engage in short-term breeding strategies with Alpha men during the peak of her sexual viability when she knows there is a social structure ready to accommodate her long-term breeding strategy (i.e. provisioning) with future men. In other words, encourage men to think that “looks aren’t as important to women” so they’ll be more acceptable future providers while breeding in the short-term with men embodying their very specific physical ideal. This is precisely the reason why the “kidult / man-up” phenomenon is so vexing for women today – it threatens this long-term strategy.

Priorities

In accordance with women’s sexual strategies, women place an importance upon looks according to their phase of life. The priorities and importance of characteristics that women will consider prerequisites for intimacy shift as her life’s conditions dictate.

14 – 24 years old: Looks are EVERYTHING. Yes, some romanticism might help complete the fantasy, and Game is definitely a factor, but the priority for arousal is primarily Darwinian. Women will gladly overlook character flaws or a lack of assets in favor of fucking the physical Alpha while she approaches her own sexual apex. For a brilliant study of this take the time to read Dr. Martie Hasselton’s study, Why Muscularity is Sexy.

25-30 years old: Looks are still of primary importance, but other factors are beginning to compete in significance as she becomes increasingly more aware of hitting the impending Wall. While she’s still hot enough to command attention, her hypergamic priorities lean more towards the life time provisioning potential and parental investment potential a Man represents. As she gets closer to 30, she knows she has to play her cards well if she is to cash out of the game while she’s still able to compete with other women. Ambition, character, assets, humor, personality, etc. begin to be more important in the light of a potential lifetime commitment.

30-35 years old: Most single women in this demographic are in varying degrees of denial (aided by social conventions), but on some level of consciousness they realize that they’re past their expiration date and securing a commitment is a progressively more difficult battle with every passing year. Looks lose precedent in favor of assets and status. Game and personality become more prominent, but the primary focus is catching up to the choices she made (or should’ve made) when she was about 28. Locking down a proven commodity – a Man with a reasonable amount of success and status – is the goal now; not a Man with “potential” for that same success. While the physical is still important, she’s more than willing to compromise the physical standards she held at 24 if the Man brings a lot to the table.

35-45 years old: She’s well past her expiration date, hit the Wall and is, graciously or not, accepting the fact that she’s used goods. Any notion of a list of requisites or priorities are a fond memory now. She may play the Cougar card in an ego protection effort. This may seem like she’s back to her primary Looks focus in playing the Cougar, but again, on some level of consciousness she understands that younger Men are doing her the favor by fucking her and in no way expects more than a physical fling. The hope is still, by some miracle, to lock down an aging AFC divorcee in a bad spot, with at least some amount of appreciable assets. Status is nice, looks would be icing on the cake if he’s still got them, but provisioning takes priority above even Game or social intelligence.

Making the Change

Changing yourself takes an effort. The greatest obstacle in change is the first one; recognizing and accepting that you need to change. This is where AFCs and beta males chomp at the bit because they’ve been told for the better part of a lifetime to “just be themselves” and everything will go according to fate’s plan. Then for whatever reason they unplug from the Matrix enough to realize that they’ve been sold a bill of goods and that personal change is necessary for them. They need to change their lifestyle, change their attitudes, change their outlook, change their minds about themselves and yes, change their physiques too.

But change takes effort and people are lazy. They want the quick fix; the magic pill that makes them happy, successful and sexually irresistible. So they flock to guys selling the best program that promises all that for a minimum of effort. Learning Game demands practiced effort, but it requires FAR less physical effort than improving one’s body, and it’s especially daunting for guys unaccustomed to working out. It takes time, energy and dedication all commensurate with how out shape that guy is to begin with.

From Women’s Physical Standards:

There are countless “chubby chaser” websites dedicated to catering to this particular “fetish” for men, but not a single one exists for women, why?. By that I mean there is a percentage in society of otherwise average, fit men seeking out obese women, yet the standard for ideal masculinity seems to remain constant for females by the lack of “fetishes” for obese males. There is such a demand in society by men seeking fat women that businesses have been developed in order meet it, but there is no similar demand on the part of fit women (or one not sufficient enough to register) seeking overweight men. Why do you suppose this is? There has never been a “rubenesque” period for Men – where overweight men were consider the feminine ideal – in history. A muscular athletic build has ALWAYS been the masculine standard.

As I stated in Sexy, men define what is feminine and sexy for women, however the inverse is true in that women define what is masculine and sexy for men. The reason women find particular aspects of Men’s physiology sexually arousing is because the men in the past who embodied them were rewarded with sex often enough to make those traits hard-coded into women’s brains.

Yes, Game is vitally important, as is root level, dynamic personal change. I don’t think I need to explain just how important this is. However, looks COUNT, looks MATTER. What I find amazingly ironic is that looks are one of the few areas of change that a Man has DIRECT control over – his body. Barring physical disabilities, you have no excuse not to be in better shape. Why wouldn’t you want the full package? Stop being so Goddamned lazy and accept that you’ll need to exert some effort and sweat to make yourself more attractive. Game and a positive-masculine DJ mindset are vital elements for your attractiveness and well-being, but they WONT make you look any better with your shirt off.

*Side Note: I should also point out that for as much as women will assert that a man’s penis size is irrelevant to their sexual pleasure, often the first insult they’ll hurl at a man in order to shame him is “I’ll bet he’s got a small dick!” You connect the dots.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

Leave a Reply

  Subscribe  
Notify of
A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada
Offline

I just got into this very debate today on some friend’s Facebook wall. I was always an ugly kid. I was also a fighter, so my face is pretty beaten up. Some women love my scars, crooked chin, busted nose, and misplaced eye-socket. Most don’t — at least, I never did well on dating sites because my photos are pretty asymmetrical. The big issue is that confidence overcomes symmetry. My face has not prevented me from dating beautiful women long term — my confidence has made them completely ignore the cosmetic imperfections. Going primal/paleo and losing 20# of weight (60#… Read more »

Mike C
Guest
Mike C
Offline

Learning Game demands practiced effort, but it requires FAR less physical effort than improving one’s body, and it’s especially daunting for guys unaccustomed to working out. It takes time, energy and dedication all commensurate with how out shape that guy is to begin with. Less physical effort? Yes. But in my opinion, it really is the low-hanging fruit in boosting overall attractiveness because it is formulaic and algorithmic. Learning Game on the other hand requires a lot of trial and error, fucking up, and recalibrating. You can’t just robotically spit some routine where you can go to the gym and… Read more »

My Name Is Jim
Guest
My Name Is Jim
Offline

One minor point in an otherwise perfectly good post: “Consider that greater than 66% of people in western society are overweight (33% are morbidly obese).” I don’t think men are quite as bad as all that. Whenever I see these stats and then chase down the source, it always seems to come back to measuring obesity by straight BMI. BMI isn’t a good measure for men because when a lot of men work out, they gain almost as much muscle weight as they lose fat weight. (Unless they were pretty fat to begin with) I’m not too far from being… Read more »

CaptainAction
Guest

Working on your physique and building muscle increases testosterone. My thinking is that this increased testosterone could then act as a great fuel for your game skills, for dealing with approach anxiety and for taking positive risks. You’d also just feel damn better about yourself.

dragnet
Guest
dragnet
Offline

Rollo has an e-book?

YOHAMI
Guest
YOHAMI
Offline

Looks matter, a lot, but looks is not what gets you laid. Even if you´re stunning the girl is gonna put you through tests. I see the order of importance as: Game (personality, masculinity, drive, charm, dominance) Social proof (the throne other people puts you in) Assets (stuff you own and display) Looks (body, clothes) Some of these are interchangeable and every aspect influence the rest. Say. Your looks say a lot about the rest of the items. If you´re fat and smell silly it says a lot about your game, social proof etc. Looks are the presentation card, and… Read more »

trackback

[…] Looks matter, but looks is not what gets you laid. Even if you´re stunning the girl is gonna put you through tests. I see the order of importance as: […]

dragnet
Guest
dragnet
Offline

This is such a badly needed post in the manosphere—long overdue. I’ve talked about EXACTLY this shit at Roissy’s…and soon found my comments in moderation. Looks matter to women. They. Just. Do. Game uber alles, no doubt…but why not be the total package?? I have a hard time believing that someone who is too lazy to workout and do what is necessary to change their physique will be motivated enough to outlast the pain of the trials, errors and failures that bedevil every aspiring Gamesmen in the beginning of their quest. And being good-looking takes pressure off of your Game—women… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest
YOHAMI
Offline

He should.

YOHAMI
Guest
YOHAMI
Offline

Yeah. Get your body in optimal shape, get a haircut and fashionable clothing. Its amazing how everyone treats you different, even if the rest of you is still the old you.

zeitgeist
Guest
zeitgeist
Offline

It’s so satisfying knowing you’ve been repeatedly punched in the face.

Traveller
Guest
Traveller
Offline

Good post, but I do not agree the belief “look is not important to women” amongst not fit guys is so diffused. Quite the opposite, most of them are aware being passed by football players and motorbikers. The point maybe is, it is natural go for the minumum work path, so many fat guys focus not on exercise, but humour, culture (I make your homework and you make me a bj… sure mate), money. I do not know if Game is statistically judged more difficult than diet and exercise, but for sure it is in a ladder of priorities. Look,… Read more »

Marx
Guest
Marx
Offline

Looks and Game go hand in hand. They should mutually reinforce each other.

Genes gave you your face–your facial symmetry, shape, and skin color. But the great thing about being a man is that you’re NOT condemned to a lifetime of misery if you were born butt-ass ugly. Your body shape, muscle tone, manner of speech, fashion style, confidence, skills, intelligence, and assets can all be changed, with *hard work and perseverance*.

Never cease in your pursuit of holistic self-improvement.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

If you haven’t done so, read through the Martie Hasselton study I link:

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/downloads/Frederick_Haselton_2007_Muscularity_sexy.pdf

In particular pay attention to strategic pluralism and women’s preference for fitness indicators (pg. 4)

This should be required reading for any freshly unplugged guy, and will pretty much put to rest the “looks aren’t as important to women” meme.

unbowed
Guest
unbowed
Offline

“After 40 every man gets the face he deserves” -Abe Lincoln.

Peregrine John
Guest
Peregrine John
Offline

Re BMI: Absolutely true. I’m carrying maybe 15-20# that needs removal, and my upper torso needs much better definition. That said, I look reasonably fit, but according to my BMI I’m seriously overweight. My bones are, I swear, made of depleted uranium or something, because my BMI is way off-kilter.

So I totally ignore it.

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada
Offline

Ha, that’s great — is it real?

I’m pushing 40, and I’ve been told by relatively young women who I never knew long that I look very young, and when they stalk Facebook photos, they admit that I’m far better looking now than ever before in my life.

That’s all bullshit — it’s female doublespeak. The fact is, I’m in far better shape, and my confidence is sky high, and that’s all that matter. Women can not see the ugly if the guy is confident in himself.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Rollo, or anyone here really – do you know a good website for a workout routine? I’ve browsed a couple to go with the gym membership I got two weeks ago, but haven’t found any that really click. I’m 5’10, 185 lbs. I was told by the gym when I signed up and went through all their initial things that I had 20 lbs of fat I could safely lose. Most of it is upper body I’m sure – played soccer most of my life and bike on a regular basis, but have neglected my upper body since stopping wrestling… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest
YOHAMI
Offline

leangains.com

Mike C
Guest
Mike C
Offline

Leap,

http://www.t-nation.com/

If I could go back and tell my 22-year old self what to do, I’d tell him to stay away from the bullshit isolation exercises, and start with the core foundational lifts of squat, deadlift, chest press, and pull-ups. That will put on some size quick, boost test and growth hormone.

rgoltn
Guest
rgoltn
Offline

Being married and 45 here, I agree with this post 100%. Looks matter and always do; especially in a marriage. As I have aged and experienced the stresses in life such as moving up the corporate ladder, starting a company, selling it, having kids etc. looks, assets and game keep the marriage strong. I can attest that I run game on my wife and keep my self in shape and strong. The assets are strong and that always helps, but I cna tell when she is “into me” or not. Total chick-thing. If I look good to her and stay… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

My BMI is 31. Obese. I don’t think anyone who has ever met me would believe that.

YOHAMI
Guest
YOHAMI
Offline
unbowed
Guest
unbowed
Offline

Abe was at least the 1st to say it.
Your inner qualities can impact your outer self. Literally, if you worry a lot, you’re going to develop wrinkles around your mouth & brow. Though I think there’s something more intangible there as well.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Reading through it now. The fasting thing is something I already do actually – though I did it unconsciously without a guide and didn’t workout till recently. Is his site all about the dieting side of things? Seems to be – not seeing anything on a workout routine. Definitely liking what I’m seeing so far with it fitting into my diet and being something I can easily change a few things to work with well.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Most of that site seems to be random advice or pushing the Indigo supplement. Any specific part you’d recommend? Their site layout is confusing and also triggering some of my “click on anything interesting” tendencies, so I’m reading things but not in any organized/productive way.

FFY
Guest
FFY
Offline

Just tweeted the study, because honestly it is one of the most informative things I’ve read in a long time. Thanks, Rollo.

I also found Page 4 very fascinating. Particularly how women will alter their preferences for how much investment they feel they can get from the mate, and if they need any investment. If I read that correctly, they will (ugly chicks) lower their alpha expectations/requirements if they don’t think they can get much investment from one.

Smart ass time: This explains HUS

FFY
Guest
FFY
Offline

In addition to T-Nation, you might want to take a gander over at stronglifts.com.

Mike C-

“start with the core foundational lifts of squat, deadlift, chest press, and pull-ups”

Yep

King A's Bastard Son
Guest
King A's Bastard Son
Offline

….and yet another case where A.B. Dada rushed to post the first comment.

Doesn’t this guy have a life? Or does he spend all day monitoring this site so that he can be assured of posting the first comment on each article?

What a f**cking wanker.

dragnet
Guest
dragnet
Offline

When I first started lifting, I used http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com. It’s a great place for guys who are just starting out trying to get bigger and stronger and are just learning the ropes. After I became an intermediate level lifter and able to design my own programs I started using t-nation and bodybuilding.com. In particular, I found articles written by Peter Van Mol on bodybuilding.com to be especially helpful. Pay close attention to his I.C.E. program articles—those were instrumental in getting me from 180 to 200 lbs. That’s gaining muscle. As for losing fat, I have two words for you: interval training.… Read more »

Flahute
Guest
Flahute
Offline

I don’t know if Mehti gives the program away for free anymore, but stronglifts.com is a decent beginning strength program that owes a lot to Rippetoe. His focus is on the powerlifts: squats, deadlifts, bench press 3 days/week.

Now if you really like cycling, the weight will fly off you if you ride consistently and build volume week over week. I can tell you exactly what you need to do if you want to drop that weight by cycling. If interested, respond to this post and I’ll lay it out for you.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Yep, interested.

Jambo
Guest
Jambo
Offline

Check out this guy for some decent workout plans/advice. He’s a little goofy, but has some good plans and tips for working out at home.

http://scoobysworkshop.com/

Great blog Rollo, wish I would have had access to info like this 20 years ago. Would have saved me a lot of heartache and cash.

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada
Offline

I actually sit on here and hit F5 constantly so I can always be fr1st.

All the cool guys do it.

YOHAMI
Guest
YOHAMI
Offline

One day Im gonna beat you to it.

Im lifting weights just so I can press F5 faster.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Cool. Thanks guys.

I think my goals are to get the fat off first and then work on the muscle gain in small increments. Looks like I have all the tools to start on that and now know where I can go for questions or advice.

Looks like I have a long weekend of reading up on this stuff. Then I’ll start implementing on Monday.

Mike C
Guest
Mike C
Offline

Leap,

Do both simultaneously. Muscle is metabolically active. Estimates vary, but you burn something like 50-100 calories more a day per pound of muscle doing absolutely nothing but sitting on your ass. Building muscle also has positive hormonal impacts on fat loss. Often, the biggest mistake I’ll see women make is live on the cardio machine instead of lifting some weights. All cardio isn’t the best method.

King A's Bastard Son
Guest
King A's Bastard Son
Offline

…..all while flying to Vegas, or to some exotic overseas center of finance, to monitor your investments — your Beretta handy in your purse and your iPhone full of texts from the latest HB 9 you’re banging.

Loser.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Hmmm, I think I was unclear in what I meant. I’ll definitely be hitting the weights. Everything I’ve read and also what I’ve seen in myself says that its a good thing. It teaches your body to keep the muscles and ditch the fat instead of burning muscle mass for energy. What I won’t be doing right away is focusing on adding muscle weight like the first website Dragnet linked tells you how to do to add 25 lbs of muscle. I’m sure I’ll add some, and thats ok and isn’t something I’ll fight – I’ll be happy about it.… Read more »

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada
Offline

I don’t bang HB9s — I LJBF them. Social proof with the insane ones leads to way more pleasant and adoring HB8s. Everyone knows you give up the insane ones when you give up the video games daily. Now pinball and an HB8? I can do that nightly. As for the Beretta, it’s not my own firearm I like traveling with, just the preferred one. Oh, I’ll be in New York next weekend, Miami the week after, LA the week after and Vegas twice in March and April — if you live in any of these cities, let’s meet up… Read more »

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada
Offline

In my experience, height matters way more than looks in terms of getting more women to actively open a guy. I’m relatively short, and when I go out with taller guy friends, even if they’re fat and ugly and poorly dressed, they get opened just due to their height. That being said, I would say that 50% of ugly guys are ugly because they don’t even bother. Bad haircuts, terrible clothes, off posture, slightly overweight, should shave/grow a beard, etc. It bothers me to no end when I have to criticize a friend who complains about meeting women — “you… Read more »

Dan
Guest
Dan
Offline

The 3 primary goals most people have are Financial, Health, and Relationships. For men the main reason why (as a motive to do the actions involved) that they want Money and Fitness, is usually for Sex. Therefore, as in this Rationalmale example, connecting improved Fitness with more Sex as the benefit to him is the reason why that will increase his desire to exercise to get in better shape so he is more attractive (physically and confidence) to women for more sex. For the guys who want to lose some weight (not to get into a fitness debate) as a… Read more »

King A's Bastard Son
Guest
King A's Bastard Son
Offline

I’ll be in London next weekend, Paris the weekend after, Madrid the week after and Moscow twice in March and April. I’ll be carrying my Walther PPK and my special briefcase, provided to me by Q Branch…sorry, our agents carry briefcases, not purses…can you find a good reason to go to one of these cities? I’m sure they’re already on your schedule.

Dolt !

hot tip
Guest
hot tip
Offline

For the record, Dada lives in suburban Illinois.

Flahute
Guest
Flahute
Offline

Great. For cardio, cycling is great because it burns 600+ calories an hour and is non-impact training (unlike running). Bike racers typically train 5 days a week, resting on Monday and Friday, doing various (interval, tempo) workouts on Tue, Wed, Thu and long rides on Sat and Sun. Dedication to the bike means riding 8-10 hours per week. If you can’t commit to that, ride at least 3 days, 5-6 hours a week. The key is consistency. For fat loss I recommend pacing yourself each ride in the “sweet spot”, roughly 55-60% of your maximum effort. A friend of mine… Read more »

Flahute
Guest
Flahute
Offline

Hmm, my link to the Science of Sport didn’t make it.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/01/exercise-and-weight-loss-part-3-fat.html

jack
Guest
jack
Offline

girl:
“I bet he’s got a small dick!!”

reply:
“only a girl who’s experienced a lot of dick would have such finely honed instincts”

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Cool. I’ll check out the links.

Definitely agree with competing. Been in sports majority of my life. Such good motivation.

trackback

[…] Rollo delved into the realm of Looks & Game with his post “Looks Count“. I highly recommend reading it if you haven’t already. More importantly, I highly […]

dragnet
Guest
dragnet
Offline

Whatever floats your boat. Those sites are just information—use it how you see fit. The gain-weight-muscle-fast site is still a great source for what exercises you may want to consider doing. What most people don’t know is that how much (muscle) weight you gain is much more dependent on your caloric intake (composition and quantity) than the actual exercises you do—although the workout is obviously key as well. So you can use the workout routines from that site and couple it with a more modest and lean diet to see strength gains without bulking up, as it were. As for… Read more »

Socialkenny
Guest

At first I thought this was an article exclusively saying that you have to have a Mike the Situation body to pick up chics.Good points were made though.

Jhon Holmes
Guest
Jhon Holmes
Offline

I am curios what teh value of a big penis is to women. Or at least to those who really like them. A quarter of a point on a scale of one to ten or half or one or two?

Heartiste
Guest
Heartiste
Offline

“I’ve talked about EXACTLY this shit at Roissy’s…and soon found my comments in moderation.” jesus. chill dude. everyone gets moderated to keep out the spam and trolls. you’re not special, nor did you say anything to offend anyone’s biases. your comment is in there somewhere, just go back and check around. rollo, re: looks, you should separate face from body. it’s not that hard to improve one’s body (it really isn’t; takes about three months effort amounting to 3 hours per week to show noticeable results), but fixing the face is, well, pretty much impossible. and studies have shown that… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

And yet lately on your blog you’ve been agreeing with Yareally that all attraction reduces down to nothing other than confidence.

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

And yet lately on your blog you’ve been agreeing with Yareally that all attraction reduces down to nothing other than confidence.

Solo
Guest
Solo
Offline

*Claps* Rollo has been saying this for years on Sosuave, as well as most of the other respected members who get it or successful in the game i.e. Backbreaker, Fingz, Pook. Guru1000 etc. Guru1000 was the one who kept drilling it into my head that no matter how good my game is/was. I would be doing myself a disservice by staying “husky”. Hence I’ve been working out like a mad men cause I know Guru and Rollo etc are right Not to hijack the post, but as a guy I’ve been on both sides. The guy women would fuck cause… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

I don’t think we’re as out of concordance as you might think. https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/mr-perfect/ Read the part where I mention the guy Jake. A pronounced beta mindset will self-defeat even the best looking of men. Looks. Assets. Game. Have two. Three is best, but if you only have one, Game is the most essential. My main point in writing this was to draw attention to the necessity of getting in shape as an element of attraction, not to the exclusion of any other, and particularly Game. As has been pointed out in the comments here, getting in shape is the one… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

Also, you seem to confuse the cause and effect of muscles/confidence/attraction. You think that muscles lead to confidence, and it is the confidence that leads to attraction. But there is a reason muscles lead to attraction. It’s because men who’ve built muscles immediately get better feedback from women. The feedback from women is what builds the confidence, and then this leads to the feedback loop you speak of. Without the muscles being attractive in and of themselves, there would be no feedback loop. The same goes for money. Money doesn’t make you confident which makes you attractive. Money makes you… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

Should read “But there is a reason muscles lead to attraction confidence.

Heartiste
Guest
Heartiste
Offline

“If a guy becomes more attractive to a woman he knew prior to his physical transformation you may have a case, but when a guy is consistently drawing attention from women he doesn’t know, where he hadn’t before, there’s more than just a confidence element to it.” no argument there, but it’s better to look at it as a feedback loop. lift –> higher T –> more confidence –> more attraction from women. combine that algorithm with this: lift –> better body –> more attraction from women –> more confidence, and you can see how the two work in concert… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

I’ve had girls meet me after being away for a few years and show unconcealed disappointment when I’d lost bulk. And a few times I’ve gone from a bony rib-ridden chest to toned and bulked and seen the positive effect on both the girls I was already boning, and others. I took a few months off from training lately due to a move and taking my time to find a gym. I lose the weight faster than I put it on. My girl is wary to see it come back – she claims she doesn’t want to see me get… Read more »

Heartiste
Guest
Heartiste
Offline

xsplat, i have posted a study that concluded, straight out, that male overconfidence is a reproductive fitness maximizer. that is, overconfidence ITSELF really will help a man get laid. it really is a turn-on for women. so you need to revisit your priors, as the net nerds might say.

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

And in the comment section on that post I agreed with you that confidence is attractive.

Don’t you remember my snide remark about understanding the concept of AND?

Confidence is attractive AND other traits are ALSO attractive?

And yet here you are again insisting on a black and white either or conception, and again trying to reduce all attraction down to nothing other than confidence.

Yes, confidence is attractive. Must that be agreed with a million times before you admit that other things are attractive in and of themselves?

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

As roissy pointed out it is often as much about the confidence that looking good gives you as it is the looks itself.

Another thing you have to factor in is the fact that being in shape accentuates masculinity. I can put on a fair amount of muscle and my body starts to look better, but when I get below a certain body fat threshold I get blatantly hit on by women. The difference is night and day and I attribute much of this to my face taking on a more masculine appearance.

Heartiste
Guest
Heartiste
Offline

“And yet here you are again insisting on a black and white either or conception, and again trying to reduce all attraction down to nothing other than confidence.” you can stop putting words in my mouth anytime. please cite the passage where i wrote “all attraction comes down to nothing other than confidence”. tapping foot… fyi, what i actually wrote was that overconfidence is the core of game. that is not the same thing as the strawman you composed about me. for the studio audience and your edification, here’s the assertion by you that i was responding to: “Also, you… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

You’re really stretching. Or should I say heavily emphasizing some aspect of attraction that are psychologically oriented in order to devalue the aspects that are not.

This is a glaring bias, that harms your more familiar clear sighted insight.

You pull the same bias against other aspects of attraction, such as money – spinning them all towards the type of game you usually talk about.

The chipendales dancers are not fat because it’s a girls night out thing, or because it helps them to fantasize the men as having better personalities.

Get a grip man.

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

Yes, I see you wrote that comment here just now, agreeing that an initial reason for the confidence boost is because the muscles are in and of themselves attractive, an that this leads to positive feedback from women, which increases confidence. You’ve never said that before. Here is the quote you asked for, from your site http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/overconfidence-is-the-heart-of-game/#comment-305137 where you say “[heartiste: women didn’t evolve over the millennia with a taste for dollar bills and nice cars. these things didn’t exist in the EEA. what they *did* evolve is an attraction for the attitude and mannerism of the powerful man. since… Read more »

dc1000
Guest
dc1000
Offline

BAHAHA +10000!

dc1000
Guest
dc1000
Offline

I’m obese as well.

6’4 265 and wear a 38 inch jean.

make any sense? none.

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

14 – 24 years old: Looks are EVERYTHING

That doesn’t seem to be the case in all cultures. There are still places where virgins marry at 20. And I’ve seen money have an effect on both the words women say about potential prospects and the twinkle in their eye when they are of that young age.

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

As roissy pointed out it is often as much about the confidence that looking good gives you as it is the looks itself. There is a definite feedback loop. And testosterone likely enters into it as well, which also increases with confidence, to heighten the feedback loop. But there is never any need to say that what attraction is “really” about is confidence. It’s about a lot of things. Confidence being a very important part of those things. Men get confident for a reason. It doesn’t come out of thin air, or by accident. Money makes us confident because the… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

But there is never any need to say that what attraction is “really” about is confidence. It’s about a lot of things. Confidence being a very important part of those things. Yes and no. Confidence is a byproduct of success but it is a primary attraction trigger. For example, women aren’t physically turned on by money. They are turned on by the aura of money. Women aren’t turned on by status and power, they are turned on by the aura of status and power. Confidence IS the aura of these things and it is a shortcut, a “filtering mechanism” that… Read more »

dc1000
Guest
dc1000
Offline

Starting Strength. Rippetoe.

Thats all ya need.

Teras
Guest
Teras
Offline
xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

I disagree. A woman can want to partake of the mans wealthy lifestyle – not just his powerful aura. There is science to back up that money when held by a man makes the man more attractive. Not that the money translates first into something else, such as confidence. The studies show it’s the money. Now money may ALSO make the man more confident. But then we are talking about ANOTHER thing that is ALSO attractive. In and of itself, money makes men more attractive. The same man with the same confidence level and the same aura of power will… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

And to forestall the yes-but that always comes after pointing this out – this does not mean that a man must have money to be attractive, or that a poor man can’t out-compete a rich man. There are many attractive traits – there is no need to say yes-but after any trait other than confidence is mentioned.

All things being exactly equal, money in and of itself, and looks in and of themselves, make a man more attractive. And not just a bit – the difference can be dramatic.

Doc
Guest
Doc
Offline

While the breakdown is pretty good, I would say that women respond a lot more to what other women respond to, and are receptive more to outside influence. So if you enter a club with a hottie on your arm, the other women will instantly be attracted to you – mostly because of their competitive natures. But my point is that while looks are important, there are several other components to that. I’m average in looks,but tend to have my pick of women – mostly because I have done my homework, and know various people. So if you go into… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

I disagree. A woman can want to partake of the mans wealthy lifestyle – not just his powerful aura. Wanting to partake of a wealthy lifestyle does not equate to gina tingle. In other words it isn’t true attraction, at least not the kind you want to try to build. I am all about using wealth/status/power game. I know from firsthand experience that this is by far the most powerful game there is. However, if you don’t bring the “inner” game to back it up you will be nothing more than a walking wallet to some less-than-sexually-enthusiastic women. Trading dollars… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

That’s a good point and I think Rollo tends to overplay the looks thing a little, at least in comparison to other things such as status and power which absolutely steamroll looks if you have them in high enough quantity.

I do agree that looks are more important than the game community makes them out to be, especially for short term opportunities. This should just go to underscore the fact that if you want to be really successful in many aspects of life you should be working on yourself as an entire package- looks, money, status, and game.

theprivateman
Guest
xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

I don’t know why you say that wealth doesn’t promote gina tingle. I agree that unless you have other attributes in place, money alone might not be enough to trigger the tingle. However studies have shown that money does indeed trigger the tingle. Deeper orgasms too. I see I was not able to forestall your crossing yourself against the devil when wealth was mentioned. The protective habit goes like this: Money is attractive? That’s the devil – quick – make the sign of the PUA Cross! “Yes-but-game!” As I said, men can’t even imagine how money is sexual. Women do.… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

I think one of the problems that men have empathizing with women’s sexual reaction to wealth, and therefore getting an intuitive grasp of it, is that men don’t see wealth as a character attribute. Women, however, do. For a woman, a man’s wealth is an attribute of the whole man, and changes the value of that man, and how they see him. Men chaff at this idea – we think it’s demeaning and crass. Women SHOULDN’T think that way. If they do they are just cheap gold diggers. But women are built to see wealth as a character attribute. Their… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

Dude…..I will be the first to tell you that money is an attraction trigger, BUT…… 1) Trying to rely on money itself to attract women and keep them around is a fool’s game. I’m going out with a guy tonight who does this. Sure, he’s 45 years old and has an attractive much younger girlfriend, but she doesn’t respect him and would not be with him if it weren’t for the money. I know this because she’s a friend of mine and it she makes it pretty obvious. 2) The trappings of wealth undoubtedly get women’s attention but you aren’t… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

I agree but I still believe that it is personality traits and how other people react toward the man that really amps the attraction.

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

Science disagrees with you. Studies have been done that control for that. Money itself amps up attraction.

You can show women pictures of the same man, and change the backstory regarding his wealth, and attraction as measured by self reporting and physical cues will be different.

Also women orgasm harder for wealthy men. And on and on.

But if you don’t want to believe the science – even the science that controls for the variables you mention – then that is no longer about being interested in facts, but about choosing what beliefs are the most comfortable.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally
Offline

Jesus. Where to even begin. “The first thing most men who were previously out of shape will tell you is the marked increase in attention they receive from women after they got in shape. This is perhaps the simplest experiment that puts the lie to this assertion.*” fucking brilliant. Case closed. The attraction the guys get DEFINITELY isn’t from: – their increased confidence they exude – the better body language they have now that they aren’t shuffling fat around – the obvious increase in love for themselves and their body they have – the fact that it shows that they’re… Read more »

xsplat
Guest
xsplat
Offline

Dude…..I will be the first to tell you that money is an attraction trigger,

No, you would be the first to tell me that money leads to secondary characteristics which are attractive. Characteristics that you don’t need money to develop.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally
Offline

P.S. surf the bodybuilding.com forums Misc and Relationship sections and read posts by the Forever Aloners. Fucktons of guys who look better than any of us commenters here will ever look in our lives, who can’t get girls. Some of them make a shitload of money too. There are guys there who are like “man at 8% body fat I wasn’t getting looks from any girls. But at 7% wow they all love me!!!”. Do you really think girls all over can tell the difference between 7 and 8 % bodyfat? And suddenly the 1% difference makes their ginas all… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

Science disagrees with you. Studies have been done that control for that. Money itself amps up attraction.

I am vaguely aware of the studies you are are talking about but I can’t remember the specifics. Were these studies done with equipment that measures physiological changes in the body (changes in brain activity in attraction centers, vaginal lubrication, body temp etc.) or did they just ask the women “who do you like better?”

If they didn’t measure physical arousal then there wasn’t proper control.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally
Offline

The moment you start talking about scientific studies is the moment you advertise that you don’t go out and pick up regularly. I’m sure for a desperate 3rd world import chick, money is enough to make her fake being into you to get her greencard…I mean, that’s your situ isn’t it? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2088767/G-spot-scientists-60-years.html “Scientific studies” say there’s no G-Spot too. The chick I fucked a few days ago who left my bedsheets drenched while we were literally sitting in pools of her squirting, would probably disagree. Maybe she was just super turned on because I took her to a McDonald’s and… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck
Offline

The moment you start talking about scientific studies is the moment you advertise that you don’t go out and pick up regularly.

blahblahblahblahblahblahblah…..same can be said for a guy who has nothing better to do than to write paragraph upon paragraph of comments to prove his “alphaness” to a bunch of keyboard jockeys.

A.B. Dada
Guest
A.B. Dada
Offline

For the record, I have 7 offices in Illinois.

The one I am at now is at 2118 S. Halsted, Chicago IL 60608. I’m here every Monday from 7am to 2pm when I am in Chicago.

Come visit.

Fearless
Guest
Fearless
Offline

I’ve been on those threads but I thought the Forever Alone tag was a joke. Speaking of, they have a great motivation thread to get guys pumped to hit the iron. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=126915643&s=c45e04197b0ee52e2600036da447abbc Gets me pumped everytime.

NahReally
Guest
NahReally
Offline

Don’t care if you think I’m alpha or not, my points are still grounded in solid experience and if you spend enough time in the field you’ll see that.

Going out once a week to your regular bar to get hammered with your bros and occasionally chatting up a couple girls here and there isn’t experience. Chatting up girls on online dating sites isn’t experience. Reading game blogs and field reports isn’t experience.

NahReally
Guest
NahReally
Offline

It’s a joke tag because it’s turned into a meme but do some digging and you’ll find a ton of guys on there who’ve got incredible bodies but so many internal issues that they have no success with women or are still virgins at 30 etc. Why is a woman attracted to one muscular dude and not another muscular dude? It’s clearly not the muscles that are attractive, duh. Why is a woman attracted to one rich dude and not another rich dude? It’s clearly not the money that’s attractive, duh. Why is a woman attracted to one guy in… Read more »

Pavlov
Guest
Pavlov
Offline

I also found Page 4 very fascinating. Particularly how women will alter their preferences for how much investment they feel they can get from the mate, and if they need any investment. If I read that correctly, they will (ugly chicks) lower their alpha expectations/requirements if they don’t think they can get much investment from one.
Smart ass time: This explains HUS

Yes!

Peacemaker
Guest
Peacemaker
Offline

Especially with our nation’s obesity rate, maintaining a lean, muscular build will separate you from most men.

trackback

[…] of the field – I catch as much or more vitriol from the manosphere when I post something like Looks Count or Women’s Physical Standards and the importance women actually do place on a man’s […]

FrustratedShortMan
Guest
FrustratedShortMan
Offline

At 5’5″, I strike out with women all the time. I’m in great shape (former weightlifter with a V chest, etc.), but it doesn’t matter – short = genetic death!

trackback

[…] studies show that a buff body is in and of itself attractive independently of confidence (as Rollo made a post about), the religion is that this is so because the buff body makes the man confident. And on and on – […]

%d bloggers like this: