Mental Point of Origin


I’m working another contract gig for the next few months, and recently I had an interesting encounter with a new girl on my team. She’s 34, Japanese (dual citizenship) maybe an HB 6.5-7 and over the summer she hooked up with a guy here who she had a somewhat monogamous relationship with until he transferred to Australia last August.

This girl is ‘in love’ with this guy who’s not aloof to her, and not fully indifferent, but he sets himself as his first priority and never considered turning down his transfer in order to continue anything with her. The guy is nothing special to look at. No muscle definition, kind of fat-thin if you know what I mean, but pasty white, ginger, not out of shape but not in shape, maybe 5′ 11″.

She cannot shut up about what a ‘real man’ he is. She bought a $2,200 ticket to visit him for a week and a half in January and has made a personalized calendar as a gift for him that has photos all of these events they shared together over the summer, every month with a heartfelt description of some thing she loves about him included.

To her, this guy is Alpha as fuck. On Tinder, this guy would be a left swipe 100% of the time. His attitude is indifferent Alpha, but he’s self-concerned. This girl idolizes him.

Granted there’s a lot more going on here to consider; her being well past the Epiphany Phase, necessitous and urgently wanting to consolidate on a long term monogamy makes this guy into an idealized prospect. Thus he became her Alpha, if not anyone else’s. Granted, it’s mostly situational; she thinks she wants to have kids with him and at 34 that clock is about to expire, but she has to come to him, literally and figuratively.

However, although the guy is definitely a ‘contextual Alpha’, he’s got a genuine Alpha-ish bearing that translates into his being self-aware of his condition and really not giving a damn what anyone else might think. He’s got total Frame control, but it’s not an intentional control, and that natural casualness of indifference only makes her want to please him that much more. There may be a cultural element to this as well, but to hear her talk about other, lesser men, it’s apparent she’s been very much westernized in her sense of entitlement.

Self-Concern Without Self-Awareness

People think I’m crazy to hold up a guy like Corey Worthington as the example of an Alpha Buddah, but this guy has the same unpracticed, self-unaware, mojo as Corey.

Personally, I was at my most Alpha when I didn’t realize I was. That’s not Zen, it’s just doing what came natural for me at a point in my life when I had next to nothing materially, only a marginal amount of social proof, but a strong desire to enjoy women for the sake of just enjoying them in spite of it.

I’ve mentioned before, the most memorable sex I’ve had has been when I was flat broke (mostly). It didn’t matter that I lived in a 2 room studio in North Hollywood or had beer and mac & cheese in the fridge – I got laid and I had women come to me for it.

It didn’t take my doing anything for a woman to get laid or hold her interest. All I did was make myself my mental point of origin. It’s when I started putting women as a goal, making them into more than just a source of enjoyment, that I transferred that mental point of origin to her and I became the necessitous one.

A lot of guys will call that being ‘needy’, and I suppose it is, but it’s a neediness that results from putting a woman (or another person) as your first thought – your mental point of origin.

I’ve used this term in a few posts so I thought it deserved a bit more explanation.

Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame.

If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.

For most of us our understanding of that point of origin develops when we’re children. Kids are necessarily “selfish”, sometimes cruel and greedy because our first survival instinct is to naturally put ourselves as our mental point of origin. Only later, with parenting and learning social skills do we begin to share, cooperate, empathize and sympathize as our mental point of origin shifts to putting the concerns of others before our own.

Young boys are generally very Alpha because of this unlearned self-importance. This is the source of the almost zen-like, mater-of-fact Alpha bearing of Corey Worthington. As I said, he’s not a ‘man’ anyone ought to aspire to, but he is an Alpha without intent or self-awareness.

There is a ‘first thought’ balance we have to maintain in a pro-social respect in order to develop healthy relationships. The problem we run into today is one in which boys are (largely) raised to be the men who provide more than they need in order to establish a future family. That learned, conditioned, mental point of origin is almost always focused outward and onto the people he hopes will reciprocate by placing him as their own point of origin.

Natural feminine solipsism makes this exchange a losing prospect. Women are both raised and affirmed by a vast social mechanism that not just encourages them to put themselves as their mental point of origin, but it shames and ostracizes them for placing it on someone or something other than themselves.

By now I’m sure that much of this comes off as some encouragement towards a retaliatory selfishness or narcissism, but putting oneself as his own point of origin doesn’t have to mean being anti-social or sociopathic. It requires a conscious decision to override an internalized understanding of oneself, but by placing yourself as your mental point of origin you are better positioned to help others and judge who is worth that effort.

It often requires some emotional trauma for men to realign themselves as their own point of origin, and I feel this is a necessary part of unplugging, but the real challenge is in how you deal with that trauma in a Red Pill aware state. If you are to kill the Beta in you, the first step is placing yourself as your mental point of origin.

So my weekend discussion questions are this: Are you your mental point of origin?

Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss?

When men fall into relationships with authoritarian, feminine-primary women, their first thought about any particulars of their actions is how his woman will respond to it, not his own involvement or his motivations for it. Are you a peacekeeper?

Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?

Are you concerned that doing so may lead to your own form of solipsism, or do you think ‘enlightened self-interests’ serves your best interests and those with whom you want to help or become intimate with?

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

264 comments on “Mental Point of Origin

  1. Rollo,

    A great article.

    How does one apply these maxims when one is a Christian ?

    I’ll be hones when I say that if you’re a man with a religion, then a woman with a religion is your only choice, and these women are quite a conundrum for me.

  2. @ Marellus – religion is for the delusional – but good luck with that. I can’t see how one can be “RP aware” and yet still religious.Prove me wrong…

    @ xaplat – nope, Rollo has always been congruent re the looks v Game debate. In 2012 there is a post called Looks Count. Of course looks count, but looks & Game are x 2 SMV multipliers.

    re this post (MPoO) it is so true – the most and best pussy I had was when my MPoO was first and foremost. Trying now at 43 to recapture that.

  3. BadP, what? I can’t hear you. Got this terrible ringing in my ears after M2.0’s heroic diatribe. I think I may have tinnitus.

    Manosphere 2.0 seems to have quickly degraded to spam
    Shame, it was so “man the fuck up exactly like Me in unspecified ways already, losers, just Get It!!”, I was rather hoping it would turn out to be Matt King on crank in the wee small hours of a Sunday morning.

    Not _quite_ tl;dr enough to be a woman.

  4. It’s odd when women write in a manner they think men do. Despite so many examples of men’s writing styles here, the pretenders are obvious. Kinda funny, kinda pathetic.

    IMPO there are a few stunning SEA women in play in Singapore. When walking down Orchard Road in the early evening, the LBFM’s are out in full force – and not all of them hookers or lady boys. Thailand is a mess, where hundreds of women gather at the closed shopping malls calling out to the sex tourists. Philippines has calmed down since Subic Bay closed, but I think that it’s similar.

    Sure, what works for a Westerner in that environment, will sometimes work at home. But physically escalating in the face of resistance, so essential in xsplat’s seduction scheme, would be RAPE even in the non-FI poisoned pre-YMY world. And nobody wants to go down for rape. Nobody.

    Sex offenders have a very bad time in prison and have it much worse after they get out. Don’t be that guy.

    If you live in the West, the only response to resistance is to NEXT the woman. Yes, you will have sex less often, but you also won’t have worry that SWAT will be deployed outside your house the next morning.

  5. Hobbes: “And I am a guy, and we know how much looks and visuals mean to us. And even now, post red pill, I’d rather have sex with my ex than Finnishgirl….How do we account for this? Well, nurture, completely wired my brain to find something about my ex hotter than a clearly much more beautiful woman.”

    I think this is a really significant point in the whole “looks vs. game” debate. If you want to understand the dynamic of female desire, look at the converse. Sure men value looks disproportionately to everything else, but not always.

    I remember in college being wildly physically attracted to a girl who was rather plain judged solely by a physical standard of beauty. But something about her was incredibly sexy. And I wasn’t the only one. My friends were all smitten with her as well (girl game?). Strangely, for me one of the biggest factors was simply how she smelled… Absolutely intoxicating. Some of the wildest sex I ever had and completely uninhibited in bed.

    Other women I bedded who were physically much more beautiful than her didn’t spark that same raw desire. Valuing a woman’s looks above all else may be more pronounced in men sure, but there are intangibles that we’re attracted to beyond looks as well. So why would we think that women don’t desire those same intangible characteristics (game, status, alpha behavior)… And more so?

    I think the mistake we too often make in the “looks vs. game” debate is taking our male template for desire and ascribing that same template to women.

  6. “If you live in the West, the only response to resistance is to NEXT the woman. Yes, you will have sex less often, but you also won’t have worry that SWAT will be deployed outside your house the next morning”

    Not so fast, young padowan.
    Having nexted half the town away for dithering and still somehow closing to the bang, even with a pig in knickers, the “morning-after regret/slut defense/failed to get commitment” gambit is a very real thing in AngloScandinavia from Seattle to Espoo. Almost routine. It’s Raaaaaaayyyypppe!, silly. Every time. But only after the sun rises, like a reverse vampire. Check out the idiot soccerista, Evans of the other damned United, currently being hung in feminist chains all over the meeja.

    Although only in the US can they get the 7th Cav. to white-knight it over the hill guns a-toted at the drop of a tweet.
    Over in The Europe it’s much more subfusc and oldschool, “round up the usual suspects, and bring them in for kvestioning”, Julian Anonysperge Assange style.

    One or more provincial British police commissioners, having been miraculously transformed into the “correct” gender, are even now ordering “reinvestigations” (until the right result is returned) into dozens if not hundreds of historic rape allegations, “no-crimed” by old-fashioned coppers on the misogynistic grounds of being an obvious load of made-up cobblers that couldn’t be stood up in court, and they’d get an earbashing from the beak for wasting his time even if it got past Keir Starmer’s professedly pro-fem/men-bad CPS (“no such thing as false rape allegations” etc.) without being facepalmed to oblivion.

    Not good enough these days. Always believe the “victim” and such. Said hardboiled old flatfeet now under discipline, suspensions etc. themselves, for “insensitivity” or some such thoughtcrime.

  7. So it’s been implied that anyone who escalates while their is resistance is “negotiating desire”, or ruling through “fear”. That escalation during resistance is means that the man is not even desired, and therefore during and after the escalation and sex will remain not desired. And therefore that he should just find a woman who really desires him, instead of being such a beta.

    So if the the logic is that escalation in the face of resistance is beta, then I’m going to use the same logic and turn it around.

    Anyone who truly believes that no means no has very a very poor understanding of women, when it comes to fucking them.

  8. For this particular post, the discussion is supposed to be about the degree to which putting yourself as your own first priority will help women to change how they treat you.

    Bango Tango et al. concedes the point “That doesn’t mean it can’t change, it can be changed to a degree”

  9. @Marellus re: “How does one apply these maxims when one is a Christian ?”

    I have the certainty, repeated often, that one cannot. Dalrock’s blog is the strongest proponent of a Christianizable sort of Game, by picking and choosing those aspects of Game which seem to least violate various Christian doctrines and principles.

    But even the simplest, most basic aspects of Game which (I believe) are absolutely necessary for a man to begin to improve a woman’s sexual behavior towards him, including her *knowing* for sure that he has other sexual options and that he is fully able to drop her like a cold moldy potato if she doesn’t do right by him, are anathema to Christianity.

  10. @xsplat re: “So it’s been implied that anyone who escalates while their is resistance is “negotiating desire”, or ruling through “fear”.”

    Maybe. That’s a definite maybe. I don’t have any experience with women pursuing me, but I do have good experience pushing past initial resistance (I don’t have any experience with LMR). I also do not have any fear of my behavior being labelled beta, even if it works.

  11. @Tam re: “round up the usual suspects, and bring them in for kvestioning”

    Does the oconus anglosphere believe that re-education camps can be effective in pre-retraining potential future offenders?

  12. @Manosphere:

    Good point and I agree with you. But this website is light-years away from the PUA culture and rightly so. It’s not about techniques and pat routines designed to land a pump and dump (not that you can’t apply the knowledge for that end). It’s really about learning the hidden mechanisms of male/ female interactions and how to integrate that in your mindset, resulting in a more aware and positive masculinity. And if you re-read this post carefully, as I did, you’ll see it as a central tenet in that mindset; who is the center of your frame? Are you self directed, or is someone else driving your life?

    I’ll take that life changing insight over a few pick up lines, any day. As hard as it is to look at yourself, recognize your failings and do the heavy lifting to turn that around, that’s a far better investment of!time and efforts because it yields lasting dividends.

  13. @xsplat re: “A less than compliant woman becomes a more compliant woman through the very act of seduction.”

    I whole heartedly agree. Rollo seems to be drifting off into Monkey Dance Hate in his comments on this post, but maybe he’s looking for pushback.

  14. And my note was in response to Manosphere’s 1st comment, not the one that included zombies, goyim and knuckle-dragging. That’s a different movie on another channel, and I got nuthin’ on that one.

  15. @xsplat re: “A less than compliant woman becomes a more compliant woman through the very act of seduction.”

    I whole heartedly agree. Rollo seems to be drifting off into Monkey Dance Hate in his comments on this post, but maybe he’s looking for pushback.

    No one is disagreeing with the above quote. You guys are talking about outliers within the general trend though. Xsplat you admitted this.

    “It looks like you are lately slipping into the belief that Alphas are the alpha foremost by looks. There is ample evidence that you must be aware of that this is not necessarily the case. Often the case, yes. Usually the case, probably. Always the case? No.”

    So examining the predominant role that looks play is not a negation of game. It should be acknowledged and included in game as well as the many various possible exceptions to the general trend/rule that you have talked about.

    You bring up how beta bux has been often presented in such a way as often only equaling (at best) attraction and never arousal. This is a valid observation and a good point, this is not always the case. Your experience has proven to you that genuine sexual desire can be achieved through status of having money. Money often equals power and power can translate into arousal ALMOST as often as superior physical genetics. But this power is also conditional based on the culture that women are operating in and how much economic power the women has (not a lot in SE Asia). It always comes back to culture, the apex fallacy and women’s hypergamy in determining their level of interest or arousal in men MOST of the time.

    As far as your points about the art of seduction. Those are valid as well. An “ugly” man can arouse female genuine non negotiated desire but again when this happens it is an outlier. Average looking men are absolutely capable of seducing women into genuine sexual desire but even here I would say that looks still play a predominant role.

    Much in the same way that men have sexual fetishes for average looking librarians and bbws so do women have for average looking, nerdy or porkly men. Where it comes from who knows. A certain man might remind a woman of some man who was a caretaker she knew as a child at a time when she was going through puberty and so triggers that sexual memory, another man might have the same mannerisms as a teacher she had a hot crush on, she might have been molested as a child or had a pervert expose himself to her and that secretly excited her, then meeting a man with similar features, attitudes of dominant displays bring back that aroused state, etc. etc.

    Since women are above all else social conformists, general trends are still going to dictate their response to whatever art of seduction strategy you are employing MOST of the time.

  16. I remember reading Sirrtyrion’s past comments and noticing that while his style was long-winded, he provided many arguments which challenged the very foundation of the game-o-sphere. This is probably why he was met with such hostility from many guys in these parts. I didn’t completely agree with his absolutist notion on looks but he was right in many ways about the importance of them. I follow his blog and his most recent post was very eye opening to me:

    I knew women respond to handsome guys but I never knew that their was an actual science behind it.

    Nonetheless, it’s a shame the guy doesn’t post here anymore. I do know he does post on the evoandproud blog and at Dr. Robert Burriss blog but that’s about it.

  17. The reason I bring up Sirrtyrion’s posts / blog is because I spent a great deal of effort in posts as recent as Game Works and The Burden of Performance detailing how Game,Red Pill awareness and seduction principles are all a necessary element in ‘success’ with women.

    On one hand I defend Game and the socio-sexual aspects of how, within various contexts, it can compensate for a deficit in looks. And on the other hand I’m acknowledging the importance of genuine desire and emphasizing the understanding of knowing the difference between genuine desire and wasting one’s efforts on less than enthusiastic prospective women when there are other women who would be.

    That is a common Beta mindset; to focus exclusively on a single woman to the exclusion of other more receptive women due to a scarcity mentality. Xsplat’s Game works for him because he’s mature enough to understand this principle and recognize which women (even initially resistant women) will be receptive to it. Even Xsplat still practices a mature, pragmatic form of Plate Spinning and this establishes confidence in his options should one girl, or a new girl not comply with his way of seduction – all or nothing Charles Bukowski Game.

    Yes, the act of seduction and escalation are an integral part of generating sexual urgency and tension. And yes, a token resistance is to be expected in order for a woman to heighten that urgency and determine genuine desire on a man’s part. However, negotiating for a mitigated desire with a woman who’s arousal is questionable (or worse, feigned to acquire something material) is a much different prospect than escalating with an attracted, interested woman.

  18. “Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?” – both questions do not arise from a self-interested man, but from a man who does not have himself as his own point of origin.

  19. “both questions do not arise from a self-interested man . . .”

    Ding, ding, ding, ding ding! We haaaaaaave a winner.

  20. Sirrtyrion’s looks über alles position is problematic because it provides nothing in the way of a solution other than surgery, which still won’t make 5’2″ man 6’2″. The science behind his position also seems a bit shaky. The experiments really don’t tell us anything about the world beyond the experiment itself. It’s sort of like economic theory where the models simply ignore the existance of certain variables in order to isolate the function of the variables being modeled. No one takes such models as absolute proxies for reality. In other words Sirrtyrion’s science works perfectly only in isolation from the dynamic chaos of greater reality. Applied to the real world such knowledge is just another caveat to be weighed against all of the others.

    The value of game is that it is testestable individually by all of us. It is reality based, and though imperfect as a literal how-to instruction manual, the knowledge contained within allow each individual to customize his own game to play to his own strengths while minimizing the impact of his particular weaknesses. Redpill awareness provides a handy guide to understanding the motivations and actions/reactions of women and explanation of why they do as they do. Knowing that allows the individual to apply game in a manner more consistent with one’s own wants/needs/and desires.

  21. I think worrying about a womans primary motivator for liking you, i.e. looks vs game, is really only important in the context of ltrs. If I meet a girl at a bar and all I’m trying to get out of her is a lay(s), then whether she is doing so out of genuine animal attraction or simply because game seduction has pushed her buttons- who cares? It seems to contradict this OPs point which is that it makes a womans mindset primary. What is primary is getting my needs met, and if I put myself first then I really shouldn’t care too much about whether I seduced her or triggered her biological alpha-seeking buttons.
    Now, it probably is advisable, when getting into a long term relationship with a woman to determine exactly why she is attracted to you, and it probably better be completely non-negotiated attraction. But if you’re going to bang her a few times and have a good time, is it really relevant?

  22. @Rollo re: “wasting one’s efforts on less than enthusiastic prospective women when there are other women who would be.”

    Ok, point taken. In my prior bluepilled life I thought it to be a greater accomplishment of mine to eventually get the more difficult woman, but it was because I believed (through experience) that other women would be difficult to me too.

    I would think every man would benefit from having some women be easy for him, but Badpainter’s example leads me to conclude that drawing the correct lesson from the easiness of women still requires the correct mindset.

  23. re: “it’s a shame the guy doesn’t post here anymore.”

    According to him, he never did. On his blog he disavowed the comments made here in his name.

  24. Looks really matter- except they don’t. All things being equal, and living in an orderly world were people are logical/orderly it would, but the world isn’t like that, is it?
    So looks matter, except what a woman finds “hot” are variable. Add to this variable, the fact that nurture and childhood will further deeply influence what a woman finds hot. Add to think that behavior as well makes up a big chunk of what she finds as hot. By the time you are done adding in all the variables, looks ends up being just another factor in a long list of variables.
    I’ve exprienced this myself. I have been rated as basically average, to really hot, to fugly to really handsome. I have met women who have sworn I look like a mature version of James Franco, my exes mom and sister called me the “actor” because they said I looked handsome enough to be an actor. By the same token I remember many times when women have appraised me as a 5 or a 6. And on dating sites like Tinder, I have experimented and found barely a match over the course of a month. If I was god looking would that be the case? I’ve also met very hot women who just assume I must have women coming out of the woodwork, and by the looks I get sometimes, I’m sure some women would be completely surprised I ever lost my virginty.
    Its all over the map, man. So who cares?
    Here is the thing- maximize looks abd then get over it. Learn game, game game. Swallow the red pill and let it inform your lifes decisions. Thats the best we can do. With human beings it is all way to chaotic and trying to stuff every variable into and exact formula will never happen. Psychologists have been trying to come up with human behavior and personality theories that cover everyone an have failed, As men we think we can reduce everything into a few basic principles and reduce reality to a simple equation, its our nature. I just don’t think thats going to happen in the field of human psychology and social interaction. So getting too hung up any one variable seems almost counterproductive.And blanket statements about anything, whether its about what constitutes alpha/beta behavior or the role of looks in mating are bound to be met with problems.

  25. @Hobbes, re: “Its all over the map, man.”

    Yes, depending on the fraction of stuff being counted as “it”. I think we all know how homogeneous women are in their assessment of the top men; essentially 100% of women agree on who the top 20% of men are, looks-wise. But women *highly* disagree on the relative rankings of alphas within the alpha group, and betas within the beta group.

    It’s ironic but true that the extremely uniform hard-wired primary preferences that women have for men’s looks (height, growth-hormone overgrowth of facial bones, broad shoulders) contributes to a cacophony of soft-wired secondary preferences, because the men that most women can get do not meet the primary preferences.

  26. Hobbes – “Here is the thing- maximize looks abd then get over it. Learn game, game game. Swallow the red pill and let it inform your lifes decisions. Thats the best we can do.”

    Pure Gold right there.

  27. On this okcupid study, 80% of men were rated below average by women, and if you look at the graph very few men are rated most attractive:

    Now the most attractive men are likely kept pleasantly busy, but since they can score 9/10s, that means there is a wide range of women who are stuck with the 97% of men, and they need something else besides just looks to get their interest.

  28. @ff12- Of the three things you mention height offers the least amount of option to change. Broad shoulders can be somewhat enhanced by increasing muscle mass in the shoulders and reducing abdominal weight to increase perception of wider shoulders. As to the face/Gh thing, never heard of it, but sounds like a set point, since bones grow in youth- like height- to a genetic set point. But one thing I have noticed is that lifting weights makes a mans face much more masculine. Not sure how that works, but you rarely see a buff guy with an effeminate face. Of course it may be that the more genetically masculine men choose to lift more than not,but I’ve known guys- myself included, who faces changed after lifting and putting on muscle mass, to some degree.

  29. Hobbes – “…one thing I have noticed is that lifting weights makes a mans face much more masculine.”

    It’s mostly all about fat. Anything the reduces excess fat will increase the visibility of muscle and bone structure. There’s a lot of fat in a person’s face.

    Also it’s possible to develope some facial muscles. The jaw muscles are very easy to develope and in conjunction with losing the fat will definitely make a man’s face more rugged and severe in appearance.

  30. @badpainter- hmm, interesting and never thought much about it. I wonder if steroids and the increase of testosterone also affect bone structure. Have you seen those before and after pics of athletes after a cycle of steroids? looks like much more than just fat being removed from the face, it actually looks like thier jaws get more prominent and their face get wider.
    Back when they were having those hearings about steroids in baseball I remember seeing some before and after pics of athletes known to have juiced and it was much more dramatic a change than just losing subcutaneous fat.
    Weightlifting has to have some effect on the bone, since the bones themselves have to get denser/stronger in order to handle the loads they are placed under.. maybe that contributes as well?
    Gonna have to read up onthis stuff.
    Maybe testosterone injections are an option for ugly men? kidding, of course…I’m not suggesting anybody do steroids.

  31. @xsplat

    Like yourself, I find Rollo’s motto that “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” is too broad. Why? Because not everything boils down to hindbrain, visceral impulses. Because at the end of the day, the sex act itself is a transaction, and an exchange (not just of body fluids). Do not transactions require some degree of negotiation? Because it surely doesn’t all boil down to base, animalistic impulses all the time? Perhaps Rollo needs to further define his concept of “genuine”, and “desire”.

  32. I think the whole “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” is pretty on the money, but like anything if you interpret it so narrowly that it loses all meaning. If overcoming LMR or any act of initiating suddenly becomes defined as negotiation, then it becomes a useless tautology. The only real desire then is standing on some street corner waiting for some woman to come rip your clothes off.
    As for behavior not being capable of inducing very real hind brain tingles I have one reply to that- which is also my reply to the “looks is everything” crowd- Mick Jagger. A man so damn ugly if he went on Tinder his own phone would reject him.
    But the man has induced spontaneous orgasms in women based on nothing but status and behavior. I saw this myself as a musician.. the number of women who would express interest in me at a gig was shocking.and interestingly I pissed many opportunites away by playing introverted beta. crap.

  33. Bones are not made of stone, they’re made of protein. Compare a fresh, uncooked chicken bone (protein) with a clam shell (Calcium Carbonate).
    Bones are living tissue, and like all protein based living tissue, turns over. About every year and a half you have a brand new skeleton.

    The environment your skeleton turns over in affects how it develops. Desity, cross section to a degree and even shape can change.
    Nutrition, stress and hormone levels all have an effect.

    Studies have been done and people are reasonalby accurate at predicting strength from pictures of faces. Leaness affects strength – negatively. Power lifters are not lean. Most of them are distinctly chubby. Yet they look strong. Body builders on contest day are weak as kittens. Some of them have been known to lack the strength to make it onto the stage. They are too lean.

    You are confusing popular concepts of ‘health and fitness’ (whatever that means) with empirical strength. A measured quantity. Six packs aren not healthy and often indicate reduced fitness, depending on the metric.

    Lifting actually changes the form of your jaw. So does test treatment. This is most visibly obvious in women who decide to go from fitness modeling to competitive body building. Their faces turn into men’s faces under the influence of the high doses of test they take. You can see it even in the off season when they are dirty bulking, i.e. fat.

    Some of the poor girls of the old East German swim and lifting teams were fucked up for life by their steroid regimens. At least one has done the gender reassignment thing to cope with it.

  34. Now the most attractive men are likely kept pleasantly busy, but since they can score 9/10s, that means there is a wide range of women who are stuck with the 97% of men, and they need something else besides just looks to get their interest.

    That something else is finding a man who has status they can at least live with and the desire to emotionally connect with them. Again that has nothing to do with genuine sexual desire for the man, AND the real problem is the most attractive men are not kept pleasantly busy by the 9/10s, they are kept pleasantly busy by all women from the 5’s (beer) up to the 10’s. And further more many women are often waiting years to see if they can score their 5 minutes of alpha. Calling Dalrock.

  35. @kfg- I’ve been aware of bone physiology – I am in the medical business- but was unaware that bones could reshape as they regenerated. I thought that was genetically set. Oddly, we never covered that in anatomy and physiology- go figure.
    Great information, btw.
    I guess that offers some solace to those who think looks is everything. As I understand it masculine traits make mens faces more attractive? If so, then hitting the gm is not simply working on the muscular level but the hormonal/skeletal as well to increase attractiveness.
    Other than that, all this talk of looks being the end all be all of everything is going to make alot of plastic surgeons very happy.

  36. “I thought that was genetically set. ”

    Well of course within strong limits it is, but they are limits, not rigid set points. You certainly aren’t going to grow your legs three inches longer, but the jaw, I presume because it is non load bearing, of limited mechanical function and low mass, is particularly plastic and sensative to hormone levels.

    ” . . .we never covered that in anatomy and physiology . . .”

    If you want to understand physiology you have to study it as a specialty. Preferably in a sports setting, because high stresses change physiolgy. Along with nutrition it actually isn’t that relevant to most medicine and is given the flash card treatment in medical school. Body Builder Dr. Greg Ellis actually decided to go to medical school to find the information he couldn’t through the bro sources, only to discover that the medical schools didn’t know any more than the bros. Often rather less.

    His doctorate is in physiology, not medicine. He had to switch disciplines to find what he was after.

    I think you’ll find that most doctors believe that sarcopenia is a natural consequence of aging, which you can refute by stepping into any decent gym. But that’s what they were taught, so that’s what they believe. The real reason most people lose muscle mass is simply because they don’t use their muscles. At least up to a very late age.

    So many ‘degenerative diseases’ are avoidable, but the people who understand that best are actually the vets. Their patients are actually worth money. Sometimes millions. Hang out around horse tracks if you want to get the, ummmm, straight dope.

  37. To get back to Biff’s question, do you think you actually may have described the beta bux dynamic. If you didn’t change, the same qualities you have now you had then. So what was the motivation on the women’s part? A girl can treat you like an alpha if you drive a pickup truck and it’s two weeks before her lease expires on her apartment. And you may be drawing from personal experience that was fairly common to you, but I think you’re categorizing the young alpha that girls go for as the stereotypical future minimum wage, scraggly loser that women (& Hollywood) like to use to justify their choices and also use to convince( or even sometimes accuse) the beta to “man up and not be bitter” or “hold it against them”.
    Siirtyrion’s arguments about looks being the only factor always came across as a simplistic, obvious, conclusion drape with an extensive vocabulary. It was as if he based everything on showing women photos of men and asking them to rate them as would you or wouldn’t you.
    The current discussion about desire, I think of the saying that a woman may not be able to say if she would do somebody when she first meets them. But she’ll be able to say if it’s somebody she’d definitely not do. It’s the former where game, seduction, and knowledge of the FI work in conjunction. Like weather patterns.

  38. “they are kept pleasantly busy by all women from the 5′s (beer) up to the 10′s”

    they might hit a 5-8 after beers, but they have no need to, so it doesn’t happen a lot. Check out a club, say 200 guys, 100 women, now the 3%, 6 guys in this case, can go home with 6 to 12 of the women, are all the other 88 to 94 women going to do nothing? Not in any club I’ve seen. If you run Game you will pull these.

  39. @kfg- Not to go to far off the scope of this blog, but I’ve taken four college level A&P classes- with the last to being an honors course, and yes, the curriculum is very much limited to information you are going to need to treat patients in a real world setting.. not much time is wasted on specialized information. I breezed through almost all of it.
    I was also amazed at the amount of old and inaccurate information that was given. When you are taking A&P as part of a program to work in the field the attitude tends to be “this is what is generally believed and its good enough for our purposes”. On several occasions I got teachers to admit exactly that when I pointed out errors.
    Anybody who puts blind faith in modern doctors or healthcare workers in general is doing themselves a disservice, to say the least. In our defense though I’ll say this- the body, like all organic systems, are incredibly complex with everything effecting almost everything else within the system. You can write entire textbooks on a some part of a single cell, I was constantly mindblown as to the complexity present in just the tiniest thing, like a mitochondria or cell nucleus. And much still remains unknown.
    In a way,

  40. Women bodybuilders also get larger noses. As well as the old East German female athletes. Heavier eyebrow ridges as well.
    Is the weakness that bodybuilders get before a show because of leanness due to what they do to get lean? Like dehydration.
    Olympic lifters are almost always undefined. But isn’t part of the technique to succeed to use the mass of the body as leverage. So is it that being lean reduces strength, or does the girth of not being lean work as an advantage to lifting heavier weight?

  41. It’s been studied that women’s estimation of a man’s attraction can dramatically change after long exposure to his face.

    Several of my girlfriends would initially call me ugly to my face, but after long association would later tell me that they now considered me handsome.

    One girl last night, who I’ve been with for over a year, compared me to Prince Charles.

    Any salesman will tell you that no interest in a product only means that the customer is not yet aware of how much interest she can have.

    Having the frame of reference that desire is a pre-ordained snap judment thing, and after that it’s done, is not only flat out incorrect, it’s cock blocking yourself.

    Interest can be developed.

    And every hurdle you pass cements more interest. And if you can fuck worth a damn, then passing that hurdle can cement a great deal of attraction.

    Your actual face will look better.

  42. Snap judments about “genuine” desire are an invalid mental model.

    A better model is that genuine hind-brain desire can be cultivated.

  43. Sometimes people say that what works in SEA is not applicable to what works in the USA.

    While there are some important differences, the foundation of dealing with women remains the same even across the races and cultures.

    But where there are differences, if someones mental model can not account for them, but instead must wholesale dismiss all data from other countries, then it is THAT mental map which is not taking in the wider view.

    There are vast cultural differences just within the US. Within any high school in the world there will be vast cultural differences – geeks and jocks and sluts and prudes.

    The foundational truths are universal – and whenever something is not universal, if you can’t account for why it works in one place and not in another then your model is not a model of WOMEN. It is a model about what works for some people in a certain time and place.

  44. Here in Indonesia the local girls always tell me, with such certaintainty that it’s completely impossible to argue them out of it, that
    1) western men prefer dark Indonesian
    2) western men prefer ugly Indonesians.

    I’ve never met any man in SEA who does anything even close to what I do.

    The older guys tend to be with uglier, darker, older girls.

    They get what they can get. They don’t shoot WAY out of their league, and they don’t make the girls fall in love. They tend to have wallet funded short term associations, or trade commitment for association.

    Just because I’m here in this location, don’t assume that I’m doing the same game.

    The game is not defined by the location.

    When I walk in the mall with one of my hotties, it stands out as really unusual. People never see such contrasts in SMV. They just don’t – it doesn’t happen.

    And so most people assume, according to their mental maps, that the girl MUST be a prostitute.

    Never mind that everytime the girl comes home from shopping she’ll proclaim how much she missed me. Never mind that everytime I come home she’ll remove my shoes for me, and get insulted if I try to do it myself. Never mind if she tells me 20 times a day that she loves me.


    She MUST be a prostitute.

    Because it’s IMPOSSIBLE to have such SMV disparity.

    Nobody does what I do out here. Over and over, year after year and decade after decade.

  45. And while greater age disparities are more accepted out here, they are also very uncommon. The locals tend to date within about 5 years of each other, but allow a bit more for inter-cultural pairings.

    But without question, every girl I’ve ever dated has had all her friends tell her, loudly and over and over, that I’m way too old and ugly for her, and that she can and should do better, and to dump me now.

    You don’t just get a free pussy pass to the hottest and best. You get major pushback, from all of society and all the girls friends and usually family too.

    For a guy like me It’s useless to approach groups of girls in a mall. I have to have her isolated in order for my voodoo charms to work, as the peer pressure of friends won’t allow any one girl to associate with me.

    Guys who think that hot girls date any old westerner just for a financial leg up haven’t tried to date hot girls. Hot girls have options. Anywhere. In any coconut grove village the beauty queen will have local and international suitors.

    Youth and beauty is a scarce commodity, and every beautiful virgin in every location on the earth instinctively knows her value.

    And her value can be in millions of dollars. These girls are not so easy to get.

  46. Rollo is correct in his “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” maxim. But what he’s saying in these comments is that if you have to compensate via excessive dominance or by material possessions, then her sexual desire isn’t genuinely based off her wanting you. It’s either based off fear (by excessive dominance) or her gaining something from you (material possessions).

    I know most men simply want to get off with a receptive chick but getting her to “WANT” to have sex with him is an entirely different piece of the puzzle for most guys.

    I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if most puas simply get sex just because she’s willing and not enthusiastic sex because she’s wanting. The distinction here matters.

    I already know some guys are going to say, “So what?”
    Lol, I’ll tell you why it does matter to the majority of men. Because when her genuine desire isn’t for you it will result in… lackluster sex. Now who honestly wants to bang a chick that isn’t an enthusiasitc fuck?
    I guess if you’ve never had an enthusiastic fuck, (where the girl is doing everything she can to please you) then you wouldn’t know what you’re missing out on. A classic case of where ignorance is bliss, that is, until you find her old videos where she’s banging all the frat bros gangbang style lol.

    I see the disparity here because even I got stale sex. This usually happened when I ventured into a relationship and became beta ass fuck but once I started banging away via tinder (that there r-selection lol), the enthusiastic sex that ALL women are capable of giving came into full view.

    But I think another red pill here is that a woman’s genuine desire really is out of the control for most men. This is why most guys have to keep going through different women to find one who does desire him or find girls who have a comparatively lower market value compared to him. It is up to the girl’s perception (real or not) of you as an alpha. But then again, you can construct an alpha perception of yourself for her, but if it isn’t real, she’ll eventually come to realize it. I’m pretty sure that at a primal level, her hindbrain cannot be fooled consistently. Women really do know alpha when they see it and fuck alphas without any (excessive) restraint based off my experience.

    I personally don’t get much LMR and in some cases, the girl is the initiator. At first, I found it very hard to believe that some guys don’t think women can initiate sex, but then I realized these are just my own subjective experiences and they don’t represent what the majority of male’s experience.

  47. Rollo is correct in his “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” maxim. But what he’s saying in these comments is that if you have to compensate via excessive dominance or by material possessions, then her sexual desire isn’t genuinely based off her wanting you. It’s either based off fear (by excessive dominance) or her gaining something from you (material possessions).

    See, that’s the exact problem right there.

    With a strict mental map that doesn’t account for the interplay of variables, you can come up with such a profoundly wrong conclusion.

    Material possessions are NOT only useful for “negotiating” a non-real desire that leads to tepid sex.

    Dominance is NOT used as fear to force a tepid desireless sex.

    The mental map is grossly off the mark – you feed in correct data into that mental map and you get out garbage.

    I have incredibly great top notch sex with my girls, and they are extraodinarily enthusiastic. One girl routinely eats my asshole just to show her total devotion.

    Dominance is sexually attractive. Say it with me, people. Dominance. is. sexually. attractive.

    Status is sexually attractive. Come one everyone. Status. is. sexually. attractive.

  48. @ xsplat

    You embody what I’ve believed is possible for a long time. I think most people aren’t willing to consider their true potential because they’re afraid of what would come along with utilizing it (e.g., pushback from friends, family, etc., feeling ostracized, like an outcast).

    I’m a perfect example of the opposite end of the spectrum. History of zero confidence. I’ve had girls say over and over again that they couldn’t believe I never had a girlfriend. I’m still a virgin. Probably one out of every 4 people I talk to, small talk or otherwise, says something about my eyes. “They look like crystals.” “Your stare is like a laser beam.” “You have the nicest eyes I’ve ever seen in my life.”

    I’m 5’11”, very solid build, attractive face. I’m a very good looking guy. Keep myself cleaned up and dressed well, but no confidence.

    I’m an extremely gifted musician and I’ve worked very hard at it to get as good as I am now. And I’m very good. But I haven’t played out in years, and have avoided really putting myself out there. I learned how to build instruments and do repairs and I started focusing on doing that, because I could do it behind closed doors in my workshop — stay comfortable in my isolation. I am extremely good at that as well and have a good reputation but I avoid putting myself out there with that as well.

    I’ve used my training in hypnosis therapy to help girls that I wanted to bang get over the guys that dumped them instead of trying to get with them because I had so little confidence I could. I do have a genuine interest in helping people, and as far as therapy goes I’m excellent, but I don’t respect my own needs. That also leads to selling myself short, not promoting my business(es) and doing more for other people than I do for myself. And I end up deprived and unhappy.

    In theory I should have every under the sun going for me. Young, attractive, intelligent, very cool hobbies and interests and definitely tremendous potential in a lot of areas —

    — and yet my sex life is completely nonexistent. It’s a combination of not knowing how to escalate and being afraid of the idea of escalating. No confidence and so much fear.

    You’d think I’d be able to work on myself, knowing what I know about hypnosis/therapy. And I have. But it’s another case where I’m not putting myself first.

    A person like xsplat who says he’s ugly and yet has remarkable success with women due to running tight Game/having the right attitude/whatever you want to call it…I believe it. Why wouldn’t it be possible?

    If someone who looks as good as me and is as talented and intelligent as me hasn’t gotten laid because of a complete lack of confidence and having negative Game — probably subconsciously sabotaging every interaction I have with girls to make sure I won’t have sex with them — why couldn’t someone with less going for them get more if they put in a lot more?

    In my experience, girls don’t initiate. I have had plenty of girls interested in me but I was too scared to do anything about it. It just won’t happen if you don’t do anything. You could be Adonis and it still wouldn’t matter — if you don’t have the confidence to escalate to the point of having sex, nothing is going to happen.

    This is the main problem for me. It’s the fear of escalating.

    Now the one area I’ll diverge a little is that I *do* believe more in trying to capitalize on interest that girls already show.

    I don’t know about cultivating interest — I believe it. For sure. I just don’t know to what extent that’s possible, but I’m not getting laid, so how would I know?

    The core of this debate is this: have more confidence and develop security in escalating and being sexual with women. Making yourself sexually available — through subtle communication, joking around and flirting, or whatever. I’m still trying to figure this out.

    But I worry that guys like me will get trapped in an infinite loop of self-improvement thinking that women will flock to them once their SMV is high enough. It doesn’t work like that. You could be banging girls right now, most likely, if you just put yourself out there and weren’t so afraid of escalating.

    I’m on board with the self-improvement stuff but I’m the type that will use self-improvement as an excuse to avoid escalating and getting sex because I’m afraid of it for whatever reasons. So there’s multiple sides to consider here.

    You have to prioritize yourself and improving yourself, and that’ll help your SMV — but no amount of SMV will escalate for you or put yourself out there automatically.

    The uncomfortable reality guys like me have to face is that we have to develop the confidence to deliberately escalate.

    I would appreciate an article about HOW to escalate, what’s involved in it, etc. Rollo’s mentioned sexual tension a lot, the urgency that leads to sex — I have very limited experience with this and am more or less at a loss about how to cultivate this, on top of being afraid of doing it. I think a lot of recovering blue pill guys like me are in the same boat.

  49. “I realized these are just my own subjective experiences and they don’t represent what the majority of male’s experience”

    and the problem with that is you don’t know if Game works on not, since you don’t need it

  50. Oh sweet Lord.. I’m a 5, at best. Considered handsome, but thats about it. And I have a lifetime full of very enthusiastic sex from many women.. mostly not getting that same enthusiasm in LTRs after a while. And well, lets be honest, I wasn’t very enthusiastic after a few months either!
    Many things contribute to a woman initiating sex, and being enthusiastic. One thing I ahve found is women who are out for a hook-up- like in Tinder- are looking to get wild and let go. I’ve found that my level of enthusiasm also plays a part. A big part is just being the kind of guy she feels she can let go with.

  51. “Genuine desire is something a person must come to – or be led to – on their own volition.”
    I’m wondering if it’s the word negotiated that’s hanging up people. If after long exposure you become more handsome to her, isn’t that being led to desire?

  52. @Softek, regarding how to escalate, I’ll try to put down a few thoughts. I expect my efforts to paint an accurate picture will be more like a child’s fingerpainting; it’s not easy to describe what is mostly unconscious embodied knowledge.

    A few weeks ago I had a date with a 17 year old beauty queen. She was bold enough to put an hours attention into her makeup and dress hot, and she came straight up to my room, so it was my situation to fuck up, but there was no guarantee provided.

    At first we just sat on the edge of my bed, chatting. I was openly nervous, and both of us kept commenting on it. She was so hot that it was a bit uncomfortable to look straight in her face – I think most of us have experienced the anxiety that comes from looking at a true hottie way out of our league.

    But there is no shame in being nervous. It just added to the energy between us. Because I’ve been through this same ritual over and over with many women, most usually successfully, I was deep down completely at ease, even while being nervous. I was at ease with being nervous. Being nervous was not a problem that needed to be corrected; being nervous is perfectly fine.

    We just took turns asking and answering questions about each other, but from the get go I initiated touch. The body is talking, the face is talking, the eyes are talking. The words are carrier tones to the deeper signals.

    It’s possible to even do the entire dance if the two of you don’t speak the same language. I did that a few weeks later with another 17 year old.

    So at first I just sit near her, perhaps knees touching. Quickly I put my hands on her leg, totally un-self-consciously, as if that’s completely natural and to be expected in such a situation. Because it is. She came up to my hotel room – of course I’m going to be familiar.

    Either her or I initiated holding hands, I can’t recall. Then later I might informally cross my legs with mine over her. Now we’re starting to have the body language of people who accept a familiarity with each other. The bodies are creating a shared physical mood. We are sharing the same space; intertwining.

    And the eyes are starting to share the same space – intertwining such that we can melt into each other.

    Later I might move my hand up her legs over her ass, and she might pull them down. Her body language is saying “No! That’s off limits to you. We are not THAT familiar yet! You don’t have a pass.”

    But I just put my hand right back. Immediately, as if her resistance either didn’t happen, or didn’t mean anything.

    She pushes down again, and I just go back.

    I sense what attraction is there, and I understand her resistance, and what her resistance means. It does not mean “I’m not attracted to you and don’t want to have sex with you.” It means “I have not yet given you the green light to have sex with me, and that is going to by my choice.”

    But I know that touching her in that fashion is going to have an effect. And it does.

    Not much later I undo her bra, in a surprise move. Same thing; she goes to put it back on. Shortly after I undo it again. I’m very good at quickly removing bras with one hand. I’ve done it a lot. I don’t have to struggle with it.

    So this time she let’s the bra be undone. Then I complain that her shirt is evil, and has to come off.

    She hesitates, looks me in the eye, finds my face to be happy and at ease, and she feels comfortable with me. She is having fun and it’s a good time. Ok, she takes her shirt off.

    Shortly after that I open up her pants. And then I pull her pants off. Maybe she resists a bit. I’m also expert at taking off pants. You have to pull them off over the waist a bit first, but then pull from the heels.

    After that she just dives in and goes for it.

    Oh, wait, no, she was bleeding. So at first it’s – “no sex, because I’m bleeding”.

    I’m like “I don’t care. Let the hotel staff clean up the mess, it’s not my problem”

    So that goes on for about five minutes.

    And then it turns out that I don’t have a condom.

    So we go out of the hotel, and spend 1/2 hour driving around trying to find a place that’s still open to sell condoms.

    And after that we go upstairs and fuck like porn stars. She even recorded some of it on her cell phone and sent it to me the next day.

  53. Oh, and that girl claims to only have ever had one cock inside her, and claims that usually guys who get her in the same situation don’t ever get her naked.

    I can’t know how much of that is true, but she did convince me that she was not an easy slut.

    She never took any money or gifts from me. She seemed completely uninterested in anything financial.

    Later in the week I was back in my own town in Indonesia, and she’s texting me about moving in with me. Then after that she says that her sister totally hates me and stole her phone to keep her out of touch with me and that she can never see me again.

    So I took 40 minutes on the phone to convince her to have one last brief meet up at a restaurant.

    She finally conceded, and I flew back up.

    She was adament that it was totally over. For about 20 minutes. After which we where fucking.

    There was a great deal more resistance the 2nd time. None of which meant that she didn’t want to fuck me.

    I’m still in touch with the girl, and sometimes she texts me that she misses me, and bullshits around with flirty messages about wanting to marry me. We both expect to meet up again. This time I’ll try to record some of the sex properly.

  54. I already know some guys are going to say, “So what?”
    Lol, I’ll tell you why it does matter to the majority of men. Because when her genuine desire isn’t for you it will result in… lackluster sex. Now who honestly wants to bang a chick that isn’t an enthusiasitc fuck?
    I guess if you’ve never had an enthusiastic fuck, (where the girl is doing everything she can to please you) then you wouldn’t know what you’re missing out on. A classic case of where ignorance is bliss, that is, until you find her old videos where she’s banging all the frat bros gangbang style lol.

    @TM. I think the majority of men are blissfully unaware of the quality of sex they get compared to some such as yourself. Just a few years ago I was as well…until I worked with a super alpha where I actually got to see day in and day out the response he got from women and he shared all the details with me.

    I would have never believed that women had such a monkey response if I had not seen it for myself multiple times over. And not just purely sex, the genuine excitement, happiness and affection women are capable of. After observing this damn near euphoric state this guy put them in I understood what 5 minutes of alpha really means to a woman. He was like a literal Jesus Christ figure to them, their lord and savior.

    We all grew up hearing stories of the Don Juan of course and sayings like “lock up your wives and daughters” but until you observe it in real time you might think that is just an exaggeration. As disconcerting as it might be for guys to hear there are men out there that can seduce your wife, girlfriend, daughter, sister, mother EASILY.

    I can actually name 9 girls that he banged at the office and more that he could have. It doesn’t matter if they are married, engaged to be married or had a long term boyfriend. He banged them all. And that was just the women he worked with! That doesn’t include women in his personal life and Facebook. He could easily clean up on Tinder but he doesn’t need to. He can see a 21 year old HB9 at a gas station strike up a 5 minute conversation, Facebook friend her and the next day she is messaging him saying she was tossing and turning all night thinking about him! True story. His phone was blown up with the naked pics and videos girls would send him. He told me once he doesn’t even ask them to do that. I was floored.

    Yeah the power of super alpha. Most guys just don’t know. I guess it’s better that way.

  55. Oh, and it was explained that the reason why her sister hates me is because I’m old and ugly.

    Damned cock-blocking fem-borg.

    If I get a girl isolated, I can do very well. Never understimate the power of charm.

    Many girls have told me, many times, that I’m an unusually charming man. “You can charm the pants off of any woman”, etc, etc.

    It’s true that a girl might be into your looks because you remind her of that older guy she once dated. But don’t forget – some ugly guy had to be first. Some guy got in there who reminded her of no one at all.

    I’ve been that guy, and I am that guy. I don’t have to remind a hot girl of some other guy. Charm alone can be very persuasive, but add fucking skills and it’s much more so. Add finances and romance and you can compete with younger, taller, richer, more handsome men with more hair.

  56. I’m honestly surprised that people are surprised that attractive people are…..more attractive.
    Really? this is the shocking news to our sensibilities?
    Let me give you guys more bad news.. beautiful people get paid more. They get treated better, They are presented with more opportunities and are more likely to be offered leadership positions. Is any of this news to anyone?
    At the risk of using a shaming tactic here, but I guess if it applies.. Are we women now? sitting here lamenting how unfair life and biology is?
    Be honest with yourselves. When you dated a 6-7 and were really into her, were there no beautiful women within eyesight? Did the site of a prettier woman suddenly make you unlove her, or desire her any less?
    Sure women are more opportunistic, but come on. Like I said in an earlier comment, many times I had the option of a prettier, more beautiful woman and found the supposedly less attractive one hotter.
    Everybody, including everyone on this blog right now.. is trying to get the most beautiful mate they can. And somehow we’re all shocked that women will compete for a hot guy? All the sudden its heart rending news? Isn’t that what we’re all doing?
    get a grip guys, envy is unattractive and makes you uglier

  57. Water Cannon Boy:

    Dehydration is an issue seperate from leanness. It’s done to achieve a certain look that became popular, thus effectively necessary, for no good reason. The majority of body builders who have collapsed before they even made it to the stage have done so because of ‘mismanaging’ their diuretics.

    And it will certainly weaken you.

    But leanness alone does that, even when properly hydrated. You’ll find most marathon runners and road cyclists come in at about 7% body fat. Some can go as low as 5, for a while. But there’s a threshold. Drop below it and the body starts refusing to release fat for fuel. It needs it for other things, like keeping you from disolving into a puddle on the floor, literally. Your cell membranes are made of the stuff.

    Try to get even leaner and your hormones start revolting against it. Testosterone goes into the toilet. Cortisol races to the penthouse. Muscles decline to contract with any force. Everything is trying to get you to just lie down and save energy. Body builders push it right to the edge. It’s horribly self abusive. And sometimes they misjudge the edge.

    You’re right about lifters and leverage, but the amount of raw muscle, and thus raw strength is related to fat mass as well. There comes a point where the body will only add muscle if you let your body fat percentage go up as well. A full and slightly soft face denotes more strength than an excessively lean one. This will decrease your pull up performance, but increase your squat. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.

    Of course there are those who take it as an excuse to go too far. There are always those on either end of the spectrum.

    What this means to women is no never mind to me. I’m interested in the weight on the bar or the time on the watch and they can think any damned thing they want about it, but i note that there are women who know the ‘fat’ guy could take a whole roomful of Jersey Shore types, and like that:

  58. “I’m honestly surprised that people are surprised that attractive people are…..more attractive.”

    Boggles the mind, doesn’t it? I’ve actually found myself asking people, both men and women:

    “Why do you think they call it attractive?”

    “And somehow we’re all shocked that women will compete for a hot guy?”

    And sometimes I’ve had to point out to a guy, “You know, you really are doing exactly what you’re complaining about them doing.”

    After decades of contemplating such behaviours I think I’ve finally hit on the explanation:

    People are funny critters.

  59. It’s old school HGH and Anadrol that messed with bone structure so much

    Looks is a funny topic and maybe to broad spectrum to pin down. I am short (5’7”) and not a good looking man. What I am is powerful (235 pounds, nationally ranked in power lifting and strongman).

    Strongman, throwers, power-lifters, Olympic lifters…. The lower weight class guys are using pretty lean. At the heavier end of the weight classes fat actually works to keep safe, like a shock absorber and all strength sports require thick waists to support and protect the spine.

    Can we separate dominance from status?

    I have noticed doctors constantly miss judge my health and time of recovery. Makes sense. They are use to dealing with overall unhealthy people vs a healthy man who is injured

  60. “Can we separate dominance from status?”

    There is an interplay of variables, and that is what confounds most of the simpler mental maps.

    The variables are distinct, yet additive and subtractive and holistic.

    Muscles alone are attractive. And having them will ALSO increase confidence, which is a SEPARATELY attractive trait.

    The system is so holistic that merely upping your status in one area will have ripple effects into others.

    And the ripples will show up in tiny micromovements of your face. Getting laid by an attractive woman and having a few others on the side will affect how a man deals even with a super hot girl who he become incredibly infatuated with. And all his previous experience and all of his social and financial support systems will all display themselves subtly in his demeanor.

    What we create out of our environment – our business and social and family and sex and martial arts and musical lives – all emanate out of our demeanor. It’s a holistic system. Gains and losses in any portion can affect gains and losses in others.

    So yes, increased status directly affects our sense of dominance. And vice versa. And they are also distinct.

  61. And what especially confounds the simpler mental maps is where there is crossover between different categories of attractive traits.

    For instance we can make the two different broad categories of attraction that women can feel – for safe long term provisioning, or for sperm from a dominant and physically attractive man. And the we can associate provisioning with money, and therefore categorize all things to do with money with turning on only that type of attraction in a woman – the attraction for provisioning.

    But there are crossovers and interplays.

    Money can also be used and interpreted to signal dominance and even good genes. Successful people are often successful because they are in some respects superior; they competed in an open market and won the competition. They are the winners, and will produce winners. Money and social dominance can intertwine. Money and fun can intertwine. Money and social access can intertwine.

    And so the simpler mental maps can wind up giving dramatically incorrect outputs for perfectly good inputs of data.

    It’s fine to occasionally make stated allowances for various variables. But our deeper internalized assumptions come out in how we process the data into the final conclusion. For instance Heartiste can eventually and finally admit that muscles by themselves are inherently attractive, independent of confidence, but doing so won’t change how he processes data – he fundamentally still believes that everything ultimately and only boils down to confidence.

    It’s difficult to have true knowledge of something without true personal experience of it. Can a man who has never sexually escalated in the face of resistance be able to properly interpret data about such events? Or will he fall back to his gut feeling interpretation, no matter what allowances he is forced to concede on the matter in regards to the fact that yes, a great many people do and have talked about no not meaning no and the value of sexual escalation for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    And the interplay of the variables is also difficult for some people to grok, because they may simply have never needed to. A handsome guy in a rock band has absolutely no need to understand how finances can up his game.

    We can come to the wrong – completely backwards – conclusions, using our gut feelings.

    Truly understanding how all the variable fit and work together requires actually dating girls, consistently, in many different situations and from many different advantages and losses.

    Date them as a poor man. Date them as a skinny man. Date them as a rich man. Date them as a buff man. Date them in this country. Date them in that country.

    It’s not really possible to be an armchair philosopher, and still have the gut process the information accurately. That requires experience.

  62. @asplat- brings something to mind- the role of microexpressions and presence in attraction. My brother is a great example- he is actually very handsome, but our childhood left him psychologically very scarred. He emanates a sad almost defeated vibe. He, I’m so grateful, found a woman who loves him very much and they have a good life together. She is no looker though and people swear up and down that I am more attractive than him. But I’ve done the experiment and showed his pics a few times to gfs and friends, and when they see his pics they say he’s very handsome. But in person, no-one has ever said that. According to people who have always known us, I’m the handsome one.
    REminds me of one day I was out with a girl I was dating. We went into a store in theVillage and this college aged girl says to her “he’s got great endorphines!” all googly eyed. When we left my date commented on the fact that the girl was smitten by me. I agreed. She wondered what the girl meant by endorhpins.. I didnt say anything, but I think I know.
    Peoples mental states and energy are attractive. I am a bit of a contradiction- I come across as mellow, but very energetic and “alive”. People point it out.
    I think its why people meet me and say I’m really attractive, yet a picture never captures it and people say I “came out bad”. Nope, thats really me- very much a 5 or less. But I have spirit and energy that attracts.

  63. sfcton: “The lower weight class guys are using pretty lean. ”

    At the skinny guy end it’s actually a rather different game. The weight limits make it a power to weight ratio affair and the guys will necessarily start to look more like gymnasts. Trying to make the most of what they’ve got, rather have the most possible.

    Being stronger, but heavier, can make you bottom man in the weight class one up instead of top man in the weight class below. Sometimes ya gotta get weaker to win.

    xsplat: Feedback loops, inside feedback loops inside feedback loops. Poke one thing and not only does everything change, it tends to do so in unpredictable ways.

    Both in physiology and psychology.

  64. @Hobbes, yes.

    The girls I’m with will take photos of us together. They will be all enthused because when they are with me they feel a lot of attraction.

    But when they see the picture they complain that “I ruined it”. The camera never captures what the girl sees.

  65. @xsplat- I also think people arent realizing that looks can be treated as a negotiated desire as well. Think of a guy who really isnt into a woman, but wants her because she’s hot and will impress his friends.
    Same thing happens to alphas. Doe she really desire and like you? or is she just trying to score the hot guy so she can show off to her friends and use you as a status symbol? Is that really desire?
    We all know women are obsessed with status and impressing thier friends. It should come as no surprise that women will compete for the alpha not out of genuine desire, but for ulterior motives.
    If you say it doesn’t matter, then you are saying that true desire doesn’t matter, at which point this whole topic becomes nullified.
    I’ve seen many attractive dudes dumped because “I really wasnt that into him”. Which seems contradictory after all a woman does to chase a hot guy, but it makes sense once you understand female competition.

  66. @kfg- well, if she was into him, why dump him? I can understand a post rationalization when dumped, but there is no call for any rationalization when one is the dumper

  67. @xsplat:
    What exactly are you getting at? I didn’t quite understand what you were trying to say. I’m talking about your comment on November 16th, 2014 at 9:09 pm.

    I think you’re being too simplistic in your approach on looks and desire and not looking at the big picture. I’m pretty sure everyone knows that attractive people get special treatment simply for being attractive. I won’t deny this. But what the guys are getting at here (as I am too) is the fact that women actually have the capacity to reserve their sexual best for attractive people (alphas) and withhold their sexual best from betas.

    Men do not do this to women (as often). When a man fucks, he fucks and really lets loose on his chick no holds barred. But women are not the same in this regard. She is selective with who she unleashes her primal desire with and that’s what guys are getting at here. Do you honestly think a chick fucks a beta with the same tenacity as an alpha?
    I’m talking about a man she views as a genuine alpha here. Whether a guy fucks a cute girl or hot girl ( if his test levels are normal), his genuine desire for both is still there. You can’t say the same for girls. Banging chicks with boyfriends made me realize that most girls simply tolerate most men until something better comes along.

    You also mention that you personally don’t find other women attractive (or hotter) when you’re with your chick but again, women are different in this regard too. I can sometimes catch women with boyfriends looking at me intently and with longing. I remember going out to eat with a friend of mine’s (who’s also attractive) and he pulled a girls phone number while her boyfriend was talking to his friend on his side. He couldn’t see my friend asking for her digits so he had no idea what was going on (the bar was angled this way). What was interesting to see here, was how secretive the girl was. She would glance at her boyfriend, then look at my friend, give him 3 numbers, and repeated this process till he had all of them. As we left, I caught her smirking at him with one of the most mischievous smiles I had ever seen. Now was he getting her sexual best? I fucking doubt that.

    You could also say, “well, it’s different when a girl genuinely loves her man.” While that is true, how long do you think that will last? A girl’s hypergamy is ruthless and you can bet that while her actions don’t show her wandering onto the next man or slipping away from you, you can bet that her mind does. The mind is the first to go and then the body follows.

    I understand that most men shouldn’t worry about stuff they can’t change but that still doesn’t make things any less true. Sparing other people’s feelings is the start of blue pill thinking, imo. That’s why I comment here. I believe that even if we disagree with each other, we should still post our individual perspectives so that when all the facts are out, we can sort through them and see what makes sense and what doesn’t. I’m still constantly learning here but I’ve come to some real fundamental realizations from this blog that I don’t think I would have been able to piece together anywhere else.

  68. Because it’s IMPOSSIBLE to have such SMV disparity.

    Yes. I can’t tell you the number of times guys remarked to me, “How did you get HER?”

  69. @TM
    “Do you honestly think a chick fucks a beta with the same tenacity as an alpha?”
    actually, yes. I’ve had women dripping and letting loose thorughout my life. Are you so hung up on your looks you think only betas, or uglier men are cheated on? lol or get a woman really hot and bothered?
    I understand what you’re trying to say, I am telling you, as a 5, that you are wrong. Simple. Plain. My experiences disprove your statements. I don’t know how else to say it.
    Notice I do not deny the role of looks, nor does anything I say discount your experiences.. but what you are trying pass off as truth, is disproved by several posters experiences.. and if you chose to look around, you’d see it everywhere as well. I can count several guys in my lifetime who were average looks and drove girls crazy.
    Crap, I’ve even competed on several occasions with much much hotter guys than me and got the girl- and these guys were going for them too, not just laying back.
    To buy what you’re saying I have to discount all of that. Xsplat is right when he says that you are allowing your experiences, what you live to become the Law of the Land.. it’s filtering your perceptions.
    Again I do not deny that more women throw themselves at alphas, I do not deny that women desire them the way we desire models. Bu yo are trying to deny my lived experiences.
    It’s actually quite egotistical- which I’m sure ups your success rate- women love that confident arrogance.. but you are kidding yourself if you think only good looking guys get women wet and horny and wild and get great sex. So, so kidding yourself.

  70. @ Tinder Master. You’ll have to give a more specific question as I can’t see which part was unclear.

    But I’m disagreeing with “if you have to compensate via excessive dominance or by material possessions, ”

    We play to our strengths. Is having a handsome face compensating for a small dick? Dominance is attractive – compensation doesn’t come into it. It is, in and of itself, attractive.

    If dominance raises the overall value of the man enough such that invokes genuine desire, then perfect. Strength played to.

    And the same for material possessions. Wealth can be attractive and increase the overall value of the man past the threshold onto which he receives genuine sexual desire from the woman. Is that a compensation? Is working out at the gym a compensation? Is getting a good haircut a compensation? Is learning social skills a compensation?

    It’s an additive factor, that can help to ameliorate deficits in other areas, yes.

    But it is NOT a sign of transactional sex.

  71. Can a man who has never sexually escalated in the face of resistance be able to properly interpret data about such events?

    I would escalate to reach a desired end point. “Sleep with me naked. No sex. I like the body contact.” And I would escalate and pressure until I got that. And then?

    I slept with her naked. No sex.

    About 3/4s came back gagging for it. Why? “Is there something wrong with me? I gave in. Slept naked. No sex. Is he gay? Am I ugly?”

    And the other 1/4? Well I got to sleep naked with them.

    The “no sex” rule weeds out the girls who just gave in to pressure. The ones who might be inclined to think “rape” the morning after.

  72. @Hobbes – It is the rationalization that allows the dumping, because she was into him. She must get out of being into him to dump him, doesn’t she?

    She got bored, she found another monkey to swing to, she’s dumping him prophylactically to keep him from dumping her; whatever. The thing is she needs to get rid of the guy and she can’t unless she was never into him in the first place, so she rewrites history to make it so. Happens all the time. A lot of really nasty divorces are the result of it. My own ex went through a spate of telling me what a shit I was for things that happened before she married me.

    Not to say that your scenario doesn’t happen. It does. All the time.

    But you can’t take it at face value. What she says isn’t what is. What she says is simply what she needs to be. That might happen to be the truth, or it might happen to be a lie so big it warps the very fabric of space-time.

    Makes no difference to her either way. Veracity and consistency aren’t even relevant. You aren’t going to make logical sense out of it, because it isn’t logical. It just is.

  73. I wonder if a properly fucked girl is inclined to cry regret-rape.

    I’ve never had any experience of regret sex. Ever. I have no idea what people are talking about.

    After sex girls want more sex. Always.

  74. “well, it’s different when a girl genuinely loves her man.”

    As you point out that is good for a few months at most. It is about 1/2 of a woman’s makeup. The other half as you point out is ruthless hypergamy. To keep that in check you need Game. And all the sub games that go with it.

    And you can train her to recognize her imperatives (It is difficult. They don’t like it. It reduces their imagined power.) I now have mine trained to say, “I LIKE seeing you with other women. It makes me hot for you.” And then I go on to describe what the three of us will be doing together and how she will be helping the other woman to bond with me in order to strengthen her bond with me. I have red pilled her.

    I might add that she used to think of herself as a “modern feminist” and she still is to some extent. But not in her relationship to me.

  75. @kfg- I get you. And yeah… rewriting history.. that shit just mindfucks me.
    It really does. I see it all the time and my brain wants to pop an vessel.
    A recent short term relationship was the worst case I ever ran into. Never applied to our shared history, but it got to a point where she once told me “you never ask about my life” and I told her “I have no idea if its your real life you tell me about, or the rewritten one” she actually laughed.

  76. Gentlemen, 

    Looks, like everything else, are influenced by context. One’s costuming, demeanor, behavior, and body language are all context driven and all affect appearances. Few men can by the Alpha in every situation. On Tinder, and online dating looks have primacy because that’s the context.

    A story from my own experience.

    First I am a big guy. 6’2″ 225lbs, my suit size 54R. I gave into genetics and started shaving my head 10 years ago, I wear a beard often scruffy because I’m lazy. I’ve twice been stopped by at airports by people who wanted my autograph before realizing I am not actually Stone Cold Steve Austin, personally I don’t see how anyone could make that mistake.

    The convenience store I most often stop at has a very attractive young woman working the evening shift, around here she’s an 8, probably a hard 7 all cleaned up in the big city. She reasonably good at the friendly customer service thing, but rather pro forma about it. I am in this place several times each week. For the first month or so I show up after work covered in dust, dirt, sweat, generally looking like shit, or I’d make a quick run later to buy lunch for next day wearing sweat pants and generally dressed as a homeless person. She’s polite but completely indifferent to me. I am invisible, and I’m used to that.

    About six weeks ago I stopped in and was dressed nicely, and freshly shaved and groomed so I didn’t smell like drywall dust. Same gal behind the counter. She looks me up and down stopping to make eye contact on the upsweep. Big smile, very friendly, much more talkative, lots of eye contact. A bit un-nerving, and were it not for my time spent here and the rest of the ‘sphere I might never have noticed.

    I figured it must be my clothing so I’ve been testing this. Sure enough when I take the time to give a damn about my costuming she notices me, when I come in IDGAF clothes I’m invisible. The only variable in this experiment is my costume. I therefore conclude that clothes do make the man by contextualizing his SMP. Recognizing the context of that one element of my superficial appearance has been very useful. I just wish I’d received the memo on the primacy of height 25 years ago. Oh well live and learn slowly I guess.

  77. Rollo, I am a strong believer in ensuring my interests are served as a priority over any women or family as like you say you cannot take care of others of you cannot take care of yourself.

    As a result of reading your threads I always refer back to my self as my own point of origin.

    An interesting point to note is over the past 20 months of reading rational male I have made self improvements (I.e.) studying, saving money, lost weight. My mother in law is very vocal about me loosing weight and going to the gym (she disapproves of it). She tells me stories of a couple she knew who broke up because the man was going to the gym too much). She also says I’m “too thin”. This is not the case I’m 5:10 and was 18.5 stone and now still 14 stone!!

    Anyway having been a rational male reader for some time I know that people are terrified by change. I notice the increase in female interest by women in general since improving my self by taking an interest in going to the gym. I find it amazing that She would prefer me to drop my SMV’s to more closely match my wife who is a HB7 if she lost a little weight may be a a HB8.

    (I am 28 my wife is 27) please give your thoughts.

    Many Thanks


  78. @D-man, I plan on some cosmetic facial surgery this year, and one of my girlfriends keeps objecting. I poked fun at her that it was because she knows I’ll become more attractive to the competition, and she at first denied it. But now she’s open about it and wails “I don’t want you attractive to young girls!”

  79. @softek

    I related to your post. If you replaced “escalate” with “approach” I could have copy/pasted it myself.

    After reading all Rollo’s work and the many comments, it seems that many guys have a Game sticking point. Mine is approaching, yours is escalating.

    I’m tall, broad shouldered, similar cool hobbies, 6 figure job etc but If I had a dollar for every time I talked myself out of approaching due to fear of rejection / embarrassment – I’d be one wealthy dude.

    I’m working hard on my approach anxiety and slowly getting better.

    As for escalation anxiety, my advice is to think of it like an escalation ladder; if you escalate to point of resistance, go back one step then try again shortly after. Some girls need plausible denial stages of resistance to rationalize sex so fast after meeting a guy.

    Roosh’s “Bang” is great as is the classic Mystery Method for escalation techniques.

  80. And she is only 25 – she means she doesn’t want me to keep up my habit of dating teenagers and early twenty somethings. My newest girl is over thirty years younger than me.

    By the way if I am to keep up this lifestyle it’s going to require very creative ways to get social access. Online dating isn’t doing it anymore. And to that end I’m developing entire businesses that give me social access in the best possible situations with a large and continuous pipeline of young model quality girls.

    A lot of guys think that the solution is to give up. I don’t think that’s the best solution at all. There are solutions that require more effort and more time that can work.

  81. @kfg

    RE: Bone re-shaping

    Reminds me of what Arnold said about his routines when he trained his checst in the 70s. Along with benching etc he used stiff-armed pull overs to literally ‘expland’ his ribcage.

  82. Not entirely off topic. Probably the biggest handle with which to manipulate women is this: women believe that their opinions matter a lot. More specifically, a woman believes that *her* opinion ought to be highly valued. More specifically yet, each woman believes that her *taste* should be revered, and her selection of girl friends usually depends upon mutual reinforcement of fads and objectively irrelevant choices – peanut butter brands, footwear designs, etc.

    Hence push-pull critiques of her choices, no matter how off-the-wall, will establish you as NOT one of her girls. This is important advice to orbiters. If harsh enough, your critique will count as bullying and therefore buys you immediate alpha points you can cash in at any time. Your tastes matter to her even if they don’t matter to you in reality, so you should pretend that your tastes are original in your uniquely personal choices.

    One sequence that works is
    1. Criticize some other woman’s tastes first. It’s always open season on all footwear. And calling a strange woman’s clothing slutty-looking is an easy gambit.
    2. Sincerely congratulate your target woman’s choices as “practical”, “understated”, and “sensible”.
    3. Talk about some other woman’s “fashion nonsense” (my pet phrase). Emphasize your being perturbed by other women’s clothing choices, made as if they want you to look at them.
    4. If you mention the words “taste” and “footwear” close enough together, a woman’s eyes will glaze over as if she’s imagining you licking her shoes. Make her imagine her licking her own shoes instead.

  83. Rollo,
    Your argument in this post is basically the same as the Fi/Fe argument I’ve commented in your blog in the past. But instead of writing Fi you write “self as point of origin”, and instead of Fe you write “other as point of origin”.

    We are Fi or Fe dominant by temperament, and this is inborn in us. We are able to change our personalities through effort (for example, an introvert learns to act extroverted for his own benefit), but these changes are always effortful and cost us energy. It is fine to act Fi-dominant (assuming that is not a man’s nature) in a short-term relationship, but for a marriage it is better to actually find a woman who is attracted to a man like one’s self. There are women out there who genuinely value Fe-dominant men. But these are not the women who date Alphas in their 20s. Instead, they are the women who look for marriage and quality men from the get-go.

    So I guess my argument with you here is that although a man can effortfully change his point of origin, he is better off with a woman with whom he can be more genuine temperamentally, assuming marriage is his goal. (if getting laid is his only goal, ignore this post).

  84. @Amit – That’s an old trick from the Reeves/Park days. There’s a catch to it though; you have to start it while quite young, before final fusing of your structure takes place. It manipulates development rather making a change in the mature form.

    Manipulating development is quite easy with exercises, binding, starvation, etc.

    Obesity isn’t the only ‘epedemic’ out there. On the other side of the spectrum from the bipedal sea mammals walking the land are the stick insect girls with 32″ hips. For most of them that isn’t genetic. It results from 800 Cal/day dieting while teens. You know something has gone terribly wrong with your culture when people volunteer to be famine victims.

  85. @Badpainter – I ran your experience the other way around. It was a major enhancement to my life when I learned that I could make myself disappear in plain sight without even having to go to the Twilight Zone.

    The hardest part for me is changing my walk which is generally described as “regal.” The head down, rolled shoulder shuffle just does not come naturally to me.

    Do looks matter? Shit yeah. And you can use that get attention – or avoid it.

  86. Doesn’t this dialog really just reflect how inadequate “alpha vs. beta” and “game” are at capturing what’s going on between men and women? I like knowing Red Pill truths about the feminine imperative as expressed in cultural contraptions such as romantic love, courtly love, chivalry etc. But even then, as I’ve studied evolution (and become aware behavioral genetics, group selection, epigenetics etc.) and biology over the past couple of years informally, it’s become clear that there are many other factors at work.

    Just consider this idea, with respect to group selection. Humans are unique in the history of life particularly with respect to our level of social sophistication and organization. Group selection is a huge part of that, in the sense that it sets social systems with varying attributes into competition with each other. Human social systems have developed to be “usocial” in that some sub-groups serve the needs of their group while not serving their own needs (usociality is usually thought of as about just reproduction, but it’s not just about that, if you are interested, check out this link It’s thought that this usociality is key to the success of homo sapiens, just as it is in ants.

    Let’s assume that human competition is reduced to just reproduction. We already know that as many as 40% of of human men will not pass on their genetic material. We know women overshoot for the “best” men, whether we call it hypergamy or not. What does this mean? One way of seeing it is that humanity, or better said, homo sapiens as a group, have succeeded best by denying reproduction to a certain segment of men.

    Even worse for these men, we’ve generalized the provider/protector/gentleman role as an ideal all men should subscribe to as a way to win women over, even though that simply isn’t how they primarily select us for sex. Interestingly, men have exercised their leverage as providers/protectors due to the heavy costs of female reproduction to still obtain sex from women in exchange for provision as the high end males know they don’t have to provision to reproduce. And there aren’t enough “alphas” to go around, so this strategy may not turn out to be so bad for the guys who don’t get picked based on attraction. In other words, Beta guys, if it weren’t for provision, perhaps you wouldn’t ever get laid at all? But it’s also true that you wouldn’t work as hard, which is something that benefits many others in society.

    My point? All this has evolved in large part due to adaptation and selection (far too quickly for random mutation or genetic drift to be the primary drivers), and in particular, group selection in combination with sexual selection. This means it’s not really as plastic as many would have you think. It’s actually much more complicated than all this – read Edward O. Wilson or Christopher Ryan to a get a real appreciation for how complex this all is. But in the end, the Red Pill truths that help me see how this actually works empower me greatly. It helps me compete in the “game” of getting women to have sex with me, and it helps me stop putting my needs second. So, I’m working on my appearance, and have embraced being selfish, which necessitates looking at my life as a self-improvement project. Great – but that’s not game. I’m not running “sets” or whatever the likes of Krauser et al preach. I think PUAs are more Beta than anyone in some ways as women are way too important to them, and I guarantee I can pick up a woman who is actually interested far more readily than most of them can. You see, I’ve boiled it down to looking for IOIs as I roam the earth gregariously and sexually – my nature – and fire when I get tone. I’m not doing any of this consciously, and hence, I think that it really can’t be learned. I’ve finally realized that I was a natural alpha of sorts – can’t have an N of over 100 and not be – and that ultimately, I’m just lucky.

    It also gives me great sympathy for my own failures, and all men’s failures in this regard. It’s a cruel reality to face. I read comments by a guy like Softek, realizing that he’s never once felt a woman’s hunger for him, never felt a women’s submission, and I’m moved. The suffering that many men will have in this system is deep and widespread.

    Can “game” help the likes of Softek? And is “game” what’s really helping Xsplat bang young hotties? Or are a much more complicated set of drivers at work? Why is Xsplat so naturally aggressive – “calm while nervous” (I can completely relate to that)? Fyi, Softek, listen to Xsplat carefully, what he’s doing only works when you can isolate a woman. And then, it only works if you’ve established a sexual context to the interaction from the outset – not verbally or crassly, but in the sense that you don’t come up with some other reason that’s BS or pretend you want to be friends or something. Once you get close with a woman, the cues they take from physical escalation and their autonomic reaction are quite independent of looks. It’s not verbal, it’s visceral. But what he’s also not likely sharing is that most women don’t respond to him initially, and that he’s creating an opening for these kind of interactions with women all the time. Most women pass, as happens to me, which is fine because I don’t care about any of them. This is what is meant by the “point of mental origin” stuff. Their rejection is just a negative finding for Xsplat or me – not something that makes me feel bad about myself. I get rejected all the time, I don’t care. But I also get “tone” sometimes and when I do, I create a sexual context immediately.

    But in the end, Softek, my experience has been that if I have to explain it, well, you’ll never “get it”. Women just want guys who get it, as Rollo points out. I got lots of ass way before I took the Red Pill – it’s just that I managed it all horribly and caused myself a lot of pain. But I always escalated. In a way, the short hand of “they’re all sluts/whores” is true, in that they all can become wild women sexually in the right circumstances. Xsplat and I know this. And we approach every encounter with women knowing this, and women know that we know this, which is why the sexual context is there from the outset in the first place. Fyi, you should know it’s a playful thing, it’s basically just flirting. Most women love being with a man who is like this, even if they don’t fuck us. If you want to try and develop this skill, go try it out on fat or ugly women. The dynamic is the same, but they are so hungry for cock that you won’t struggle or have any real chance of failure. Treat the pretty ones the way you treat the ugly ones – even if you are nervous.

    ProTip: If you get to know beautiful women, they will tell you that while they get bad approaches a lot. they mostly hate the fact that men are stopped by their beauty, or obsessed with it. Just talk to them, if you can get up the nerve and you’ll see I’m right.

    The bottom line is be playful with it, and see if they keep eye contact, open their body up to you etc. Read Joe Navarro on body language. Many women who are interested will at a certain point actually flex their back so they thrust their breasts at you a bit. It’s obvious when it’s on, it’s not hard work. The hard work happens when you are pressing when there is no interest. You might fuck 1 in 100 of those, but I don’t like those odds. I think PUAs spend a lot of time fighting those kinds of odds.

    It also continues into the realm of the actual sex. I don’t know any of the science on this, but I’ve always known that I can “imprint” on a woman who I’ve been with sexually. I was very fortunate that at 21 I had a 35 yr old lover for a few months who was a nyphomaniac. The second time we had sex she stopped me and told me that I had no idea what I was doing, and the next 4 months was a clinic in female sexuality. I relish women who tell me that they have trouble having an orgasm, etc. I know they will come with me, and do so – when I let them. I’m very dominant sexually and very skilled – women don’t lay back and think to themselves, “What the fuck is this guy doing?” when I’m with them? Many have described to me how most other men are terrible lovers, and I think that women become much more bonded to me because of their sexual experiences with me. My recent young lover told me that “our deep inner perverts connected”. She gets soaking wet for me, embarrassingly so for her, actually. I touch her now and he’s hot and wet immediately, yet she’d be seriously embarrassed to have her friends know that I’m fucking her.

    Genetics and environment and socialization and biology all drive these behaviors and tendencies. To think that it’s just mindset or even just looks at work, and that “techniques” can be adopted which can override all this is just ignorant. Of course, we can all optimize how we play the game, and in this Xsplat is also correct. I’m creating entirely new social contexts where I have access to attractive women, many of them young and have high demonstrated value.

    But can Softek become Xsplat? I doubt it. How much of this is actually baked into the cake, so to speak? The cold truth is as that humanity as a collective wants Softek to fail at reproduction. We want the bottom half to not pass on their less fit genetics. Perhaps by excluding Softek, we are getting rid of genes that make people nervous or self-doubting?

    In the end though. an even harsher truth is that I don’t really care that much. All of life is a competition, for money, jobs, promotions, how well tended your lawn is – and zillions of other things in our society. Life itself is a fitness contest and human sexuality is just part of it. I’m out to do as well in that contest as I can for my happiness and satisfaction. I think trying to change any of this as both feminists and men’s rights activists do is ludicrous and destined to fail. I just accept it as the way the world is.

    Perhaps the best aspect of seeing all this realistically is that its taken away all the anger. It’s just reality, and being mad at reality only makes me miserable.

  87. “Funny thing is, this guy would pull more girls than the most technically proficient PUA out there”

    he could but didn’t, had a GF for three years, then got engaged, changed look to boring

    PUA Julien is way ahead on head and count, though no longer welcome back to where Corey lives

  88. @Xsplat – Spot on. Being selfish raises my perceived value – but because I’ve actually become a selfish prick, I’m not that concerned with the how the hamster works. I’m more concerned with fucking women who want to fuck me. So by boiling it all down to being selfish and looking at my life as a self-improvement project based solely on what I actually want out of life I optimize many aspects of how I interact with women.

    I also always have multiple female projects going – spinning plates. If I focus on just those three things – I’m set. I listen to PUAs and game afficionados/experts talk about so much detailed analysis and planning and their gambits with women and I know they are full of shit. Anytime you are that much up in your head with a woman, you aren’t getting laid. Women react to your state of relaxation and happiness and spontaneity – and you can’t be that when you are trying to execute some kind of formula.

    It’s more intuitive than game purveyors seem to think. Be yourself. The real problem with many of you (which nobody wants to talk about) is that your “self” isn’t attractive to women. There is only one solution to that – self-improvement. And my life was always a self-improvement project. Which is another thing women find incredibly attractive – doers. Builders. Being up to something. Having ambition – these all signal high value. No game involved in that. Yeah, I’m helping build 4 companies right now – that is hot shit. You work in a fucking warehouse in South Korea and game 60 hours a week like the putative leader of the MGTOW movement, Stardusk of Thinking Ape TV, does? Don’t expect that stories about how many pallets you loaded today will make a pussy moist when I’m telling them about sailboat racing or wreck diving or a music gig I did or how I sold AIG their derivatives trading and risk management system.

    All of life is a contest and there are always losers and whiners in every competitive front. Frankly, I think most of the PUAs and their minions came from the losing end of the mating game to begin with and their perspective is always skewed by that. Put another way, do you think Corey would ever think about taking a PUA course? Even more to the point – do you think he could “teach” you what he does? Do you think he even knows?

  89. LOL I say the same basic thing; my success with women is based on my drive to become an apex predator. Pussy is a by product of all the other things I do

  90. the four digit count guys I knew couldn’t teach, it would like asking them to teach walking ( they were fun to watch though)

    the relatively low SMV guys who are hitting way above average (in real, not picking up a broke stripper) can teach some ideas (which you can read and see for free). That said the women taking courses on how to snare guys get their money back.

  91. @sfcton – I’ve described my current state of mind to several friends as being predatory, that I feel like a predator when I’m out and about in the world now. Some don’t understand, I don’t give a shit, lol…

  92. @redlight – All lower SMV guys need to do is lower their standards and they will eventually find some women who is excited to fuck them. Setting them about the losers game of trying to manipulate uninterested women into bed for half-hearted sex, and failing the vast majority of the time, that’s no way to live life. Either improve yourself or settle for what you can pull naturally. Engaging in long term campaigns and projects – that is the way of the beta.

    There is also the outlet of professionals for those who want to “punch above their weight”. This is not effort free either because you are still dealing with women, but if some guy who can’t pull hotties wants to do one of them, why not pay? He’s getting negotiated desire one way or the other – but one is much more straight up and much less filled with rejection and bullshit.

    But to tell people that they can learn to be like Hobbes (he’s a natural alpha, he just doesn’t know it) or Xsplat? Fyi, Hobbes probably looks like Harvey Keitel – “ugly but fuckable” or some other version of it. I bet he’s very good at short term connections, as women have very different and more malleable standards for short term mating than they do for long term (older guys can exploit this with young hotties, usually very dependent on circumstances). He’s defacto attractive on a certain level, but is unaware of it. Talk to women about “ugly” guys they would fuck to see what I’m saying. See who they come up with and why, it will be instructive.

  93. as einstein says… it’s all relative… if the best alpha she can find is some simp… she’ll simply be more beta than he is…. just hope that some player doesn’t take a fancy to her…..

  94. Thank you for the replies everyone, that was very helpful. It’s going to take me a while to sift through all of that and absorb it but I appreciate the advice very much and am going to do my best to make the most of it.

    @ Glenn

    Your post reminded me of a zen koan:


    A great Japanese warrior named Nobunaga decided to attack the enemy although he had only one-tenth the number of men the opposition commanded. He knew that he would win, but his soldiers were in doubt.

    On the way he stopped at a Shinto shrine and told his men: “After I visit the shrine I will toss a coin. If heads comes, we will win; if tails, we will lose. Destiny holds us in her hand.”

    Nobunaga entered the shrine and offered a silent prayer. He came forth and tossed a coin. Heads appeared. His soldiers were so eager to fight that they won their battle easily.

    “No one can change the hand of destiny,” his attendant told him after the battle.

    “Indeed not,” said Nobunaga, showing a coin which had been doubled, with heads facing either way.


    Now a little aside on physical attractiveness, personality attractiveness, and genetic determinism vs. Lamarckism:

    Dr. John Mew and Orthotropics. If you Google orthotropics, it’ll explain everything. Facial attractiveness is largely controllable through proper resting oral posture and proper swallowing. Dr. Brian Palmer also discussed the importance of breastfeeding on cranial development.

    A lot of people, men and women alike, have never had the facial attractiveness they would’ve had if they were taught properly from a young age. I had braces and a retainer, and later had all 4 wisdom teeth removed, whereupon I noticed my eyes got closer together, my eyesight got worse, and my facial structure changed for the worse — less masculine, my jawline disappeared and my face got narrower. I kid you not. And I’m not the only one. Wisdom teeth develop for a reason and they absolutely help to support facial structure.

    Path of least resistance. Take the wisdom teeth out and the facial structure will collapse to some degree, because there is no need to maintain a wider palate to accommodate wisdom teeth if there are no wisdom teeth there.

    I have been using proper oral posture for several years, though, since I learned about it, and it has definitely made improvements in how my face looks. It’s subtle but it’s noticeable. Anyway, if everyone taught this to their kids, the world would be a better place. See also: “Buteyko Meets Dr. Mew.” It explains all that in detail. The teeth will form around the tongue and eliminate crowding if the tongue is in the proper position: the “U” shape. When the tongue hangs down and exerts no pressure on the teeth, the palate develops in an unattractive “V” shape.

    I’ve been using Lems shoes and Correct Toes to help with my knee and back pain. Definitely noticing a tremendous improvement. They realign the toes into the proper position, where circulation is maximized and strength and balance are optimal, and the Lems have a wide toe box that allows for toe splay, which is how our feet are designed to function.

    Those are just two examples of acquired traits. The unattractive face might always be unattractive, but nowhere near as unattractive as an unattractive, improperly developed face, as a result of poor oral posture. Which is a behavior long after the fact of conception.

    And even in the womb, there are massive amounts of variables. I’ve theorized for a long time that in tandem with feminism, the rampant chemical “castration” of men due to pesticides, plastics, and general mineral deficiencies and poor health in pregnant and nursing mothers, is a tremendous issue —

    — the extreme amounts of polyunsaturated fats everywhere, that INTENSIFY and EXACERBATE the effects of ESTROGEN; men are being bombarded from birth with toxins that antagonize testosterone…

    …it’s known now that index vs. ring finger length can be correlated to how much testosterone a fetus was exposed to while it was developing.

    Is it bad genes, or being conceived, developed and born in a sub-optimal environment? The line is too blurred to say for sure about anything. But I definitely lean more to the side of Lamarckism, and have a lot of faith in people’s potential to improve themselves.

    “Monsters and Magical Sticks: There’s No Such Thing as Hypnosis?” is an excellent book and opened my mind up quite a bit. Regardless of the role genetics play in our personality, I absolutely believe that beliefs are acquired traits — we learn that this or that way is the “right” way, and just do it on autopilot. Even if it’s killing us.

    One of my efforts lately has been to raise my testosterone and lower cortisol naturally. I have been struggling to get off of porn. From everything I’ve read on Your Brain on Porn, I have the feeling that if I can quit for a long enough time, my brain might balance out and let that “mojo” arise naturally.

    I believe that there’s a high chance that these ‘mating’ behaviors (trying not to sound autistic here) are directly influenced by hormones. It only makes sense that a man with higher testosterone and lower cortisol will “just get it” easier than a guy with low testosterone and high cortisol.

    Hormones are perhaps the most significant influences on our behaviors. Of course our thoughts can influence our hormones and vice versa. So it’s an expansive topic, but that’s why I’ve become so fascinated with studying nutrition and hypnosis as a kind of single unit.

    Anyway, I’ve noticed more “just getting it” before to an extent when I’d quit porn for 6 months. I felt more confident around girls and was flirting out of nowhere, without having to think about it.

    Was still afraid of escalating. But I knew when girls were eye fucking me. I was just too nervous to do anything about it. I think that’s a barrier as a result of a belief system — AKA where the hypnosis comes in.

    I was just so horny and I also wasn’t feeling so strung out all the time — my physiology just changed. From quitting porn. The research Gary’s done on how porn addiction might influence brain chemistry is pretty staggering. I try to be careful about what I believe, but it’s interesting stuff anyway.

    But I got rejected by a girl I asked out and then felt like a giant pussy and sunk back into the porn and self-defeating attitude, which I’m only recently starting to come back out of.

    I think we CAN and DO self-defeat. Is it genetics that wants us to lose out on life? Or is it internal processes and programs, based on broken and untrue ideas about ourselves and our limitations?

    Did our genes screw us over and seal our fate from the start, or is it our belief that we’re screwed that keeps us screwed?

    Expecting to be Don Juan is unrealistic. But beyond that, unnecessary. I’m a good looking 25 year old guy. There is no reason I shouldn’t be able to get laid other than my attitude. And I blame myself for that — and I believe that I can change my attitude if I have the right skills to do it.

    I’ve been using a method similar to the Sedona Method. I’ve mentioned it before. It’s pretty different but the basic idea is similar. I’ve been diagnosed with simple schizophrenia, bipolar, major depression, etc., but years ago refused to give in to the doom and gloom of the mental health system and became determined to study nutrition in order to heal myself naturally, and get off all the zombifying drugs I was on.

    And I’d say I’ve had tremendous success. I am no longer on any medications and refuse to take any, my years-long chronic insomnia has gone away, and the mood swings and panic attacks are also disappearing. My story could be in the NY Times, for real. And maybe one day I will write a book about my transformation and my opinions about necessary reforms in the mental health institution.

    But moving on: Have you heard of the studies on monkeys? There was one study where they replaced an Alpha male with a Beta male. The Beta male, who previously had high cortisol and low testosterone, *ADAPTED* to his new role. His physiology literally rose to the occasion — his cortisol dropped drastically and his testosterone shot up to fit his new assumed role of Alpha male.

    Testosterone I/O by Christopher Walker is another good book.

    I don’t know what I can reasonably expect as far as a sex life goes. All I know is that that doesn’t matter — what matters is doing the best with what I have. All I can do is believe that I can improve myself with every fiber of my being, and act on it.

    And that’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve transformed my health completely and continue to do so as a result of operating on this belief system.

    Will I ever have sex? Have a woman want me? I believe I will if I believe that I can and that I will, and take the necessary actions to get to that point.

    I’m reading this blog for the same reason I’m training to be certified in a form of hypnosis therapy as well as a branch of nutritional counseling. I believe people can change.

    Not everyone is going to get an equal slice of the pie. But it’s like a parable in the Bible: the one about the vineyard workers. The owner paid everyone the same amount, even though some people showed up really late and only worked one hour, while others worked the entire day.

    His response to people complaining was that he gave them the money he promised he’d give them, and they agreed to that amount…so basically he told them to shut the fuck up because they got what they agreed to get, and complaining about how unfair it was that other people got more was just making themselves miserable for no reason.

    I might never have the N count of some guys here. I have no idea what my maximum potential N count could be. But it doesn’t matter. But as a 25 year old man who hasn’t even started approaching his maximum SMV yet, to shoot myself in the foot and believe that I will NEVER HAVE SEX….

    …there are Red Pill guys here in their 60’s who are getting pussy, who only found this blog a year ago or something like that.

    If I believe I’m doomed to a life without sex, that’s what I’ll get. The amount of sex I’m capable of getting, or the quality of women I’m capable of getting, is irrelevant in the face of that idea. All that matters is what I believe about myself, what I believe I deserve, and what I’m willing to do to get what I want, what skills I’m willing to learn, what time I’m willing to put in, etc.

    So I’m reading over those comments carefully and getting what I can out of them, while changing everything else in my life that I can. I agree with Glenn 100% on self improvement. And I am a living breathing example of the reality of self improvement. I have not exactly gone from zero to hero, but pretty close. 5’11”, 118 lb anorexic having nervous breakdowns/psychotic break, in and out of mental hospitals, self-mutilating, suicidal — to 195 lbs with a decent amount of muscle mass, no longer on any medications, thinking more clearly than I ever did and instead of hating myself and wanting to die, feeling proud of who I am and how far I’ve come in my life.

    I actually like myself now, which is probably the greatest accomplishment of my life so far. And I don’t need to be with any women to know that NOBODY can give that to you.

    Although I still have work to do, because if I really respected myself to the maximum, I would respect my desire for sex and pursue it and get it. But I’m working on it. The hardest part about self-respect for me is believing that I deserve things from other people. But again….working on it.

    I know I’m writing a lot but I hope some of my point could get through. The zen koan really expressed the core of what I wanted to say, but I still think the orthotropics stuff and the rest is important enough to bring into the discussion, especially considering physical attractiveness and all that.

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