Mental Point of Origin

PoO

I’m working another contract gig for the next few months, and recently I had an interesting encounter with a new girl on my team. She’s 34, Japanese (dual citizenship) maybe an HB 6.5-7 and over the summer she hooked up with a guy here who she had a somewhat monogamous relationship with until he transferred to Australia last August.

This girl is ‘in love’ with this guy who’s not aloof to her, and not fully indifferent, but he sets himself as his first priority and never considered turning down his transfer in order to continue anything with her. The guy is nothing special to look at. No muscle definition, kind of fat-thin if you know what I mean, but pasty white, ginger, not out of shape but not in shape, maybe 5′ 11″.

She cannot shut up about what a ‘real man’ he is. She bought a $2,200 ticket to visit him for a week and a half in January and has made a personalized calendar as a gift for him that has photos all of these events they shared together over the summer, every month with a heartfelt description of some thing she loves about him included.

To her, this guy is Alpha as fuck. On Tinder, this guy would be a left swipe 100% of the time. His attitude is indifferent Alpha, but he’s self-concerned. This girl idolizes him.

Granted there’s a lot more going on here to consider; her being well past the Epiphany Phase, necessitous and urgently wanting to consolidate on a long term monogamy makes this guy into an idealized prospect. Thus he became her Alpha, if not anyone else’s. Granted, it’s mostly situational; she thinks she wants to have kids with him and at 34 that clock is about to expire, but she has to come to him, literally and figuratively.

However, although the guy is definitely a ‘contextual Alpha’, he’s got a genuine Alpha-ish bearing that translates into his being self-aware of his condition and really not giving a damn what anyone else might think. He’s got total Frame control, but it’s not an intentional control, and that natural casualness of indifference only makes her want to please him that much more. There may be a cultural element to this as well, but to hear her talk about other, lesser men, it’s apparent she’s been very much westernized in her sense of entitlement.

Self-Concern Without Self-Awareness

People think I’m crazy to hold up a guy like Corey Worthington as the example of an Alpha Buddah, but this guy has the same unpracticed, self-unaware, mojo as Corey.

Personally, I was at my most Alpha when I didn’t realize I was. That’s not Zen, it’s just doing what came natural for me at a point in my life when I had next to nothing materially, only a marginal amount of social proof, but a strong desire to enjoy women for the sake of just enjoying them in spite of it.

I’ve mentioned before, the most memorable sex I’ve had has been when I was flat broke (mostly). It didn’t matter that I lived in a 2 room studio in North Hollywood or had beer and mac & cheese in the fridge – I got laid and I had women come to me for it.

It didn’t take my doing anything for a woman to get laid or hold her interest. All I did was make myself my mental point of origin. It’s when I started putting women as a goal, making them into more than just a source of enjoyment, that I transferred that mental point of origin to her and I became the necessitous one.

A lot of guys will call that being ‘needy’, and I suppose it is, but it’s a neediness that results from putting a woman (or another person) as your first thought – your mental point of origin.

I’ve used this term in a few posts so I thought it deserved a bit more explanation.

Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame.

If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.

For most of us our understanding of that point of origin develops when we’re children. Kids are necessarily “selfish”, sometimes cruel and greedy because our first survival instinct is to naturally put ourselves as our mental point of origin. Only later, with parenting and learning social skills do we begin to share, cooperate, empathize and sympathize as our mental point of origin shifts to putting the concerns of others before our own.

Young boys are generally very Alpha because of this unlearned self-importance. This is the source of the almost zen-like, mater-of-fact Alpha bearing of Corey Worthington. As I said, he’s not a ‘man’ anyone ought to aspire to, but he is an Alpha without intent or self-awareness.

There is a ‘first thought’ balance we have to maintain in a pro-social respect in order to develop healthy relationships. The problem we run into today is one in which boys are (largely) raised to be the men who provide more than they need in order to establish a future family. That learned, conditioned, mental point of origin is almost always focused outward and onto the people he hopes will reciprocate by placing him as their own point of origin.

Natural feminine solipsism makes this exchange a losing prospect. Women are both raised and affirmed by a vast social mechanism that not just encourages them to put themselves as their mental point of origin, but it shames and ostracizes them for placing it on someone or something other than themselves.

By now I’m sure that much of this comes off as some encouragement towards a retaliatory selfishness or narcissism, but putting oneself as his own point of origin doesn’t have to mean being anti-social or sociopathic. It requires a conscious decision to override an internalized understanding of oneself, but by placing yourself as your mental point of origin you are better positioned to help others and judge who is worth that effort.

It often requires some emotional trauma for men to realign themselves as their own point of origin, and I feel this is a necessary part of unplugging, but the real challenge is in how you deal with that trauma in a Red Pill aware state. If you are to kill the Beta in you, the first step is placing yourself as your mental point of origin.

So my weekend discussion questions are this: Are you your mental point of origin?

Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss?

When men fall into relationships with authoritarian, feminine-primary women, their first thought about any particulars of their actions is how his woman will respond to it, not his own involvement or his motivations for it. Are you a peacekeeper?

Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?

Are you concerned that doing so may lead to your own form of solipsism, or do you think ‘enlightened self-interests’ serves your best interests and those with whom you want to help or become intimate with?

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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xsplat
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“Do you think your experiences with women in Southeast Asia have had an influence on your perspective of Game? Let’s be honest, the context you consider escalation and dominance has to be colored by the necessity of the women you bed. I’m not saying your wrong in your assessment, just that your particular conditions there may lead you to think they’re reflective of a larger picture.” I’m not operating in a vacuum here. Do you think all the locals have no money? Do you think I’m the only westerner here? In any location there is going to be intense competition… Read more »

xsplat
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I’ve read many of his posts, and he makes a lot of strong points. It’s unbalanced though. It’s known that a man’s looks can grow on a woman, through familiarity. So an ugly guy can grow on a woman, like a fungus. The initial physical attraction makes a huge difference. I don’t do well at nightclubs, and would never even both with tinder. I struggle to get even a single online date. But in person to person there are non-physical traits that can invoke genuine non negotiated pussy wetening orgasm producing desire. A properly fucked girl will come back to… Read more »

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Manosphere 2.0 seems to have quickly degraded to spam, not that there was much substance to accommodate the verbosity in the first place. Always entertaining to see a simple “man up” turned into a hundred words or more, good thing talk is cheap.

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And Rollo, be cautious about setting up unfalsifiable world views. There are people who believe that everything is purely a mental construct, and therefore if you believe hard enough, you can literally fly. For them the fact that nobody is seen to be flying is therefore proof that nobody believes hard enough. You’re setting up these systems in which you proclaim what is a beta behavior. Anybody who shows evidence otherwise is therefore a beta fighting against being known for his true beta nature. It looks like you are lately slipping into the belief that Alphas are the alpha foremost… Read more »

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Rollo,

A great article.

How does one apply these maxims when one is a Christian ?

I’ll be hones when I say that if you’re a man with a religion, then a woman with a religion is your only choice, and these women are quite a conundrum for me.

M Simon
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My first GF cured me of all that beta stuff. She insisted that giving in was the wrong way to attract a woman.

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@ Marellus – religion is for the delusional – but good luck with that. I can’t see how one can be “RP aware” and yet still religious.Prove me wrong…

@ xaplat – nope, Rollo has always been congruent re the looks v Game debate. In 2012 there is a post called Looks Count. Of course looks count, but looks & Game are x 2 SMV multipliers.

re this post (MPoO) it is so true – the most and best pussy I had was when my MPoO was first and foremost. Trying now at 43 to recapture that.

Tam the Bam
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BadP, what? I can’t hear you. Got this terrible ringing in my ears after M2.0’s heroic diatribe. I think I may have tinnitus.

Manosphere 2.0 seems to have quickly degraded to spam
Shame, it was so “man the fuck up exactly like Me in unspecified ways already, losers, just Get It!!”, I was rather hoping it would turn out to be Matt King on crank in the wee small hours of a Sunday morning.

Not _quite_ tl;dr enough to be a woman.

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It’s odd when women write in a manner they think men do. Despite so many examples of men’s writing styles here, the pretenders are obvious. Kinda funny, kinda pathetic. IMPO there are a few stunning SEA women in play in Singapore. When walking down Orchard Road in the early evening, the LBFM’s are out in full force – and not all of them hookers or lady boys. Thailand is a mess, where hundreds of women gather at the closed shopping malls calling out to the sex tourists. Philippines has calmed down since Subic Bay closed, but I think that it’s… Read more »

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Hobbes: “And I am a guy, and we know how much looks and visuals mean to us. And even now, post red pill, I’d rather have sex with my ex than Finnishgirl….How do we account for this? Well, nurture, completely wired my brain to find something about my ex hotter than a clearly much more beautiful woman.” I think this is a really significant point in the whole “looks vs. game” debate. If you want to understand the dynamic of female desire, look at the converse. Sure men value looks disproportionately to everything else, but not always. I remember in… Read more »

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“If you live in the West, the only response to resistance is to NEXT the woman. Yes, you will have sex less often, but you also won’t have worry that SWAT will be deployed outside your house the next morning” Not so fast, young padowan. Having nexted half the town away for dithering and still somehow closing to the bang, even with a pig in knickers, the “morning-after regret/slut defense/failed to get commitment” gambit is a very real thing in AngloScandinavia from Seattle to Espoo. Almost routine. It’s Raaaaaaayyyypppe!, silly. Every time. But only after the sun rises, like a… Read more »

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So it’s been implied that anyone who escalates while their is resistance is “negotiating desire”, or ruling through “fear”. That escalation during resistance is means that the man is not even desired, and therefore during and after the escalation and sex will remain not desired. And therefore that he should just find a woman who really desires him, instead of being such a beta. So if the the logic is that escalation in the face of resistance is beta, then I’m going to use the same logic and turn it around. Anyone who truly believes that no means no has… Read more »

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For this particular post, the discussion is supposed to be about the degree to which putting yourself as your own first priority will help women to change how they treat you.

Bango Tango et al. concedes the point “That doesn’t mean it can’t change, it can be changed to a degree”

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@Marellus re: “How does one apply these maxims when one is a Christian ?” I have the certainty, repeated often, that one cannot. Dalrock’s blog is the strongest proponent of a Christianizable sort of Game, by picking and choosing those aspects of Game which seem to least violate various Christian doctrines and principles. But even the simplest, most basic aspects of Game which (I believe) are absolutely necessary for a man to begin to improve a woman’s sexual behavior towards him, including her *knowing* for sure that he has other sexual options and that he is fully able to drop… Read more »

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@xsplat re: “So it’s been implied that anyone who escalates while their is resistance is “negotiating desire”, or ruling through “fear”.”

Maybe. That’s a definite maybe. I don’t have any experience with women pursuing me, but I do have good experience pushing past initial resistance (I don’t have any experience with LMR). I also do not have any fear of my behavior being labelled beta, even if it works.

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@Tam re: “round up the usual suspects, and bring them in for kvestioning”

Does the oconus anglosphere believe that re-education camps can be effective in pre-retraining potential future offenders?

MikePhil
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@Manosphere: Good point and I agree with you. But this website is light-years away from the PUA culture and rightly so. It’s not about techniques and pat routines designed to land a pump and dump (not that you can’t apply the knowledge for that end). It’s really about learning the hidden mechanisms of male/ female interactions and how to integrate that in your mindset, resulting in a more aware and positive masculinity. And if you re-read this post carefully, as I did, you’ll see it as a central tenet in that mindset; who is the center of your frame? Are… Read more »

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@xsplat re: “A less than compliant woman becomes a more compliant woman through the very act of seduction.”

I whole heartedly agree. Rollo seems to be drifting off into Monkey Dance Hate in his comments on this post, but maybe he’s looking for pushback.

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And my note was in response to Manosphere’s 1st comment, not the one that included zombies, goyim and knuckle-dragging. That’s a different movie on another channel, and I got nuthin’ on that one.

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@xsplat re: “A less than compliant woman becomes a more compliant woman through the very act of seduction.” I whole heartedly agree. Rollo seems to be drifting off into Monkey Dance Hate in his comments on this post, but maybe he’s looking for pushback. No one is disagreeing with the above quote. You guys are talking about outliers within the general trend though. Xsplat you admitted this. “It looks like you are lately slipping into the belief that Alphas are the alpha foremost by looks. There is ample evidence that you must be aware of that this is not necessarily… Read more »

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I remember reading Sirrtyrion’s past comments and noticing that while his style was long-winded, he provided many arguments which challenged the very foundation of the game-o-sphere. This is probably why he was met with such hostility from many guys in these parts. I didn’t completely agree with his absolutist notion on looks but he was right in many ways about the importance of them. I follow his blog and his most recent post was very eye opening to me: http://sirtyrionlannister.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/women-appraise-male-attractiveness-in-a-glance/ I knew women respond to handsome guys but I never knew that their was an actual science behind it. Nonetheless,… Read more »

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“Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?” – both questions do not arise from a self-interested man, but from a man who does not have himself as his own point of origin.

kfg
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“both questions do not arise from a self-interested man . . .”

Ding, ding, ding, ding ding! We haaaaaaave a winner.

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If you’re in or near Los Angeles, come to the meet up of men that think like you.

It’s today.

It begins at noon.

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Badpainter
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Sirrtyrion’s looks über alles position is problematic because it provides nothing in the way of a solution other than surgery, which still won’t make 5’2″ man 6’2″. The science behind his position also seems a bit shaky. The experiments really don’t tell us anything about the world beyond the experiment itself. It’s sort of like economic theory where the models simply ignore the existance of certain variables in order to isolate the function of the variables being modeled. No one takes such models as absolute proxies for reality. In other words Sirrtyrion’s science works perfectly only in isolation from the… Read more »

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I think worrying about a womans primary motivator for liking you, i.e. looks vs game, is really only important in the context of ltrs. If I meet a girl at a bar and all I’m trying to get out of her is a lay(s), then whether she is doing so out of genuine animal attraction or simply because game seduction has pushed her buttons- who cares? It seems to contradict this OPs point which is that it makes a womans mindset primary. What is primary is getting my needs met, and if I put myself first then I really shouldn’t… Read more »

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@Rollo re: “wasting one’s efforts on less than enthusiastic prospective women when there are other women who would be.”

Ok, point taken. In my prior bluepilled life I thought it to be a greater accomplishment of mine to eventually get the more difficult woman, but it was because I believed (through experience) that other women would be difficult to me too.

I would think every man would benefit from having some women be easy for him, but Badpainter’s example leads me to conclude that drawing the correct lesson from the easiness of women still requires the correct mindset.

jf12
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re: “it’s a shame the guy doesn’t post here anymore.”

According to him, he never did. On his blog he disavowed the comments made here in his name.

Hobbes
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Looks really matter- except they don’t. All things being equal, and living in an orderly world were people are logical/orderly it would, but the world isn’t like that, is it? So looks matter, except what a woman finds “hot” are variable. Add to this variable, the fact that nurture and childhood will further deeply influence what a woman finds hot. Add to think that behavior as well makes up a big chunk of what she finds as hot. By the time you are done adding in all the variables, looks ends up being just another factor in a long list… Read more »

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@Hobbes, re: “Its all over the map, man.” Yes, depending on the fraction of stuff being counted as “it”. I think we all know how homogeneous women are in their assessment of the top men; essentially 100% of women agree on who the top 20% of men are, looks-wise. But women *highly* disagree on the relative rankings of alphas within the alpha group, and betas within the beta group. It’s ironic but true that the extremely uniform hard-wired primary preferences that women have for men’s looks (height, growth-hormone overgrowth of facial bones, broad shoulders) contributes to a cacophony of soft-wired… Read more »

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Hobbes – “Here is the thing- maximize looks abd then get over it. Learn game, game game. Swallow the red pill and let it inform your lifes decisions. Thats the best we can do.”

Pure Gold right there.

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On this okcupid study, 80% of men were rated below average by women, and if you look at the graph very few men are rated most attractive:

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

Now the most attractive men are likely kept pleasantly busy, but since they can score 9/10s, that means there is a wide range of women who are stuck with the 97% of men, and they need something else besides just looks to get their interest.

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@ff12- Of the three things you mention height offers the least amount of option to change. Broad shoulders can be somewhat enhanced by increasing muscle mass in the shoulders and reducing abdominal weight to increase perception of wider shoulders. As to the face/Gh thing, never heard of it, but sounds like a set point, since bones grow in youth- like height- to a genetic set point. But one thing I have noticed is that lifting weights makes a mans face much more masculine. Not sure how that works, but you rarely see a buff guy with an effeminate face. Of… Read more »

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Hobbes – “…one thing I have noticed is that lifting weights makes a mans face much more masculine.”

It’s mostly all about fat. Anything the reduces excess fat will increase the visibility of muscle and bone structure. There’s a lot of fat in a person’s face.

Also it’s possible to develope some facial muscles. The jaw muscles are very easy to develope and in conjunction with losing the fat will definitely make a man’s face more rugged and severe in appearance.

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@badpainter- hmm, interesting and never thought much about it. I wonder if steroids and the increase of testosterone also affect bone structure. Have you seen those before and after pics of athletes after a cycle of steroids? looks like much more than just fat being removed from the face, it actually looks like thier jaws get more prominent and their face get wider. Back when they were having those hearings about steroids in baseball I remember seeing some before and after pics of athletes known to have juiced and it was much more dramatic a change than just losing subcutaneous… Read more »

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@xsplat

Like yourself, I find Rollo’s motto that “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” is too broad. Why? Because not everything boils down to hindbrain, visceral impulses. Because at the end of the day, the sex act itself is a transaction, and an exchange (not just of body fluids). Do not transactions require some degree of negotiation? Because it surely doesn’t all boil down to base, animalistic impulses all the time? Perhaps Rollo needs to further define his concept of “genuine”, and “desire”.

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I think the whole “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” is pretty on the money, but like anything if you interpret it so narrowly that it loses all meaning. If overcoming LMR or any act of initiating suddenly becomes defined as negotiation, then it becomes a useless tautology. The only real desire then is standing on some street corner waiting for some woman to come rip your clothes off. As for behavior not being capable of inducing very real hind brain tingles I have one reply to that- which is also my reply to the “looks is everything” crowd- Mick Jagger.… Read more »

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Bones are not made of stone, they’re made of protein. Compare a fresh, uncooked chicken bone (protein) with a clam shell (Calcium Carbonate). Bones are living tissue, and like all protein based living tissue, turns over. About every year and a half you have a brand new skeleton. The environment your skeleton turns over in affects how it develops. Desity, cross section to a degree and even shape can change. Nutrition, stress and hormone levels all have an effect. Studies have been done and people are reasonalby accurate at predicting strength from pictures of faces. Leaness affects strength – negatively.… Read more »

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Now the most attractive men are likely kept pleasantly busy, but since they can score 9/10s, that means there is a wide range of women who are stuck with the 97% of men, and they need something else besides just looks to get their interest. That something else is finding a man who has status they can at least live with and the desire to emotionally connect with them. Again that has nothing to do with genuine sexual desire for the man, AND the real problem is the most attractive men are not kept pleasantly busy by the 9/10s, they… Read more »

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@kfg- I’ve been aware of bone physiology – I am in the medical business- but was unaware that bones could reshape as they regenerated. I thought that was genetically set. Oddly, we never covered that in anatomy and physiology- go figure. Great information, btw. I guess that offers some solace to those who think looks is everything. As I understand it masculine traits make mens faces more attractive? If so, then hitting the gm is not simply working on the muscular level but the hormonal/skeletal as well to increase attractiveness. Other than that, all this talk of looks being the… Read more »

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“I thought that was genetically set. ” Well of course within strong limits it is, but they are limits, not rigid set points. You certainly aren’t going to grow your legs three inches longer, but the jaw, I presume because it is non load bearing, of limited mechanical function and low mass, is particularly plastic and sensative to hormone levels. ” . . .we never covered that in anatomy and physiology . . .” If you want to understand physiology you have to study it as a specialty. Preferably in a sports setting, because high stresses change physiolgy. Along with… Read more »

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To get back to Biff’s question, do you think you actually may have described the beta bux dynamic. If you didn’t change, the same qualities you have now you had then. So what was the motivation on the women’s part? A girl can treat you like an alpha if you drive a pickup truck and it’s two weeks before her lease expires on her apartment. And you may be drawing from personal experience that was fairly common to you, but I think you’re categorizing the young alpha that girls go for as the stereotypical future minimum wage, scraggly loser that… Read more »

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“they are kept pleasantly busy by all women from the 5′s (beer) up to the 10′s”

they might hit a 5-8 after beers, but they have no need to, so it doesn’t happen a lot. Check out a club, say 200 guys, 100 women, now the 3%, 6 guys in this case, can go home with 6 to 12 of the women, are all the other 88 to 94 women going to do nothing? Not in any club I’ve seen. If you run Game you will pull these.

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@kfg- Not to go to far off the scope of this blog, but I’ve taken four college level A&P classes- with the last to being an honors course, and yes, the curriculum is very much limited to information you are going to need to treat patients in a real world setting.. not much time is wasted on specialized information. I breezed through almost all of it. I was also amazed at the amount of old and inaccurate information that was given. When you are taking A&P as part of a program to work in the field the attitude tends to… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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Women bodybuilders also get larger noses. As well as the old East German female athletes. Heavier eyebrow ridges as well.
Is the weakness that bodybuilders get before a show because of leanness due to what they do to get lean? Like dehydration.
Olympic lifters are almost always undefined. But isn’t part of the technique to succeed to use the mass of the body as leverage. So is it that being lean reduces strength, or does the girth of not being lean work as an advantage to lifting heavier weight?

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It’s been studied that women’s estimation of a man’s attraction can dramatically change after long exposure to his face. Several of my girlfriends would initially call me ugly to my face, but after long association would later tell me that they now considered me handsome. One girl last night, who I’ve been with for over a year, compared me to Prince Charles. Any salesman will tell you that no interest in a product only means that the customer is not yet aware of how much interest she can have. Having the frame of reference that desire is a pre-ordained snap… Read more »

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Snap judments about “genuine” desire are an invalid mental model.

A better model is that genuine hind-brain desire can be cultivated.

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Sometimes people say that what works in SEA is not applicable to what works in the USA. While there are some important differences, the foundation of dealing with women remains the same even across the races and cultures. But where there are differences, if someones mental model can not account for them, but instead must wholesale dismiss all data from other countries, then it is THAT mental map which is not taking in the wider view. There are vast cultural differences just within the US. Within any high school in the world there will be vast cultural differences – geeks… Read more »

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Here in Indonesia the local girls always tell me, with such certaintainty that it’s completely impossible to argue them out of it, that 1) western men prefer dark Indonesian 2) western men prefer ugly Indonesians. I’ve never met any man in SEA who does anything even close to what I do. The older guys tend to be with uglier, darker, older girls. They get what they can get. They don’t shoot WAY out of their league, and they don’t make the girls fall in love. They tend to have wallet funded short term associations, or trade commitment for association. Just… Read more »

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And while greater age disparities are more accepted out here, they are also very uncommon. The locals tend to date within about 5 years of each other, but allow a bit more for inter-cultural pairings. But without question, every girl I’ve ever dated has had all her friends tell her, loudly and over and over, that I’m way too old and ugly for her, and that she can and should do better, and to dump me now. You don’t just get a free pussy pass to the hottest and best. You get major pushback, from all of society and all… Read more »

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Rollo is correct in his “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” maxim. But what he’s saying in these comments is that if you have to compensate via excessive dominance or by material possessions, then her sexual desire isn’t genuinely based off her wanting you. It’s either based off fear (by excessive dominance) or her gaining something from you (material possessions). I know most men simply want to get off with a receptive chick but getting her to “WANT” to have sex with him is an entirely different piece of the puzzle for most guys. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if most… Read more »

xsplat
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Rollo is correct in his “genuine desire cannot be negotiated” maxim. But what he’s saying in these comments is that if you have to compensate via excessive dominance or by material possessions, then her sexual desire isn’t genuinely based off her wanting you. It’s either based off fear (by excessive dominance) or her gaining something from you (material possessions). See, that’s the exact problem right there. With a strict mental map that doesn’t account for the interplay of variables, you can come up with such a profoundly wrong conclusion. Material possessions are NOT only useful for “negotiating” a non-real desire… Read more »

Softek
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@ xsplat You embody what I’ve believed is possible for a long time. I think most people aren’t willing to consider their true potential because they’re afraid of what would come along with utilizing it (e.g., pushback from friends, family, etc., feeling ostracized, like an outcast). I’m a perfect example of the opposite end of the spectrum. History of zero confidence. I’ve had girls say over and over again that they couldn’t believe I never had a girlfriend. I’m still a virgin. Probably one out of every 4 people I talk to, small talk or otherwise, says something about my… Read more »

redlight
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“I realized these are just my own subjective experiences and they don’t represent what the majority of male’s experience”

and the problem with that is you don’t know if Game works on not, since you don’t need it

Hobbes
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Oh sweet Lord.. I’m a 5, at best. Considered handsome, but thats about it. And I have a lifetime full of very enthusiastic sex from many women.. mostly not getting that same enthusiasm in LTRs after a while. And well, lets be honest, I wasn’t very enthusiastic after a few months either! Many things contribute to a woman initiating sex, and being enthusiastic. One thing I ahve found is women who are out for a hook-up- like in Tinder- are looking to get wild and let go. I’ve found that my level of enthusiasm also plays a part. A big… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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“Genuine desire is something a person must come to – or be led to – on their own volition.”
I’m wondering if it’s the word negotiated that’s hanging up people. If after long exposure you become more handsome to her, isn’t that being led to desire?

xsplat
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@Softek, regarding how to escalate, I’ll try to put down a few thoughts. I expect my efforts to paint an accurate picture will be more like a child’s fingerpainting; it’s not easy to describe what is mostly unconscious embodied knowledge. A few weeks ago I had a date with a 17 year old beauty queen. She was bold enough to put an hours attention into her makeup and dress hot, and she came straight up to my room, so it was my situation to fuck up, but there was no guarantee provided. At first we just sat on the edge… Read more »

xsplat
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Oh, and that girl claims to only have ever had one cock inside her, and claims that usually guys who get her in the same situation don’t ever get her naked. I can’t know how much of that is true, but she did convince me that she was not an easy slut. She never took any money or gifts from me. She seemed completely uninterested in anything financial. Later in the week I was back in my own town in Indonesia, and she’s texting me about moving in with me. Then after that she says that her sister totally hates… Read more »

Bango Tango
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I already know some guys are going to say, “So what?” Lol, I’ll tell you why it does matter to the majority of men. Because when her genuine desire isn’t for you it will result in… lackluster sex. Now who honestly wants to bang a chick that isn’t an enthusiasitc fuck? I guess if you’ve never had an enthusiastic fuck, (where the girl is doing everything she can to please you) then you wouldn’t know what you’re missing out on. A classic case of where ignorance is bliss, that is, until you find her old videos where she’s banging all… Read more »

xsplat
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Oh, and it was explained that the reason why her sister hates me is because I’m old and ugly. Damned cock-blocking fem-borg. If I get a girl isolated, I can do very well. Never understimate the power of charm. Many girls have told me, many times, that I’m an unusually charming man. “You can charm the pants off of any woman”, etc, etc. It’s true that a girl might be into your looks because you remind her of that older guy she once dated. But don’t forget – some ugly guy had to be first. Some guy got in there… Read more »

Hobbes
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I’m honestly surprised that people are surprised that attractive people are…..more attractive. Really? this is the shocking news to our sensibilities? Let me give you guys more bad news.. beautiful people get paid more. They get treated better, They are presented with more opportunities and are more likely to be offered leadership positions. Is any of this news to anyone? At the risk of using a shaming tactic here, but I guess if it applies.. Are we women now? sitting here lamenting how unfair life and biology is? Be honest with yourselves. When you dated a 6-7 and were really… Read more »

kfg
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Water Cannon Boy: Dehydration is an issue seperate from leanness. It’s done to achieve a certain look that became popular, thus effectively necessary, for no good reason. The majority of body builders who have collapsed before they even made it to the stage have done so because of ‘mismanaging’ their diuretics. And it will certainly weaken you. But leanness alone does that, even when properly hydrated. You’ll find most marathon runners and road cyclists come in at about 7% body fat. Some can go as low as 5, for a while. But there’s a threshold. Drop below it and the… Read more »

kfg
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“I’m honestly surprised that people are surprised that attractive people are…..more attractive.”

Boggles the mind, doesn’t it? I’ve actually found myself asking people, both men and women:

“Why do you think they call it attractive?”

“And somehow we’re all shocked that women will compete for a hot guy?”

And sometimes I’ve had to point out to a guy, “You know, you really are doing exactly what you’re complaining about them doing.”

After decades of contemplating such behaviours I think I’ve finally hit on the explanation:

People are funny critters.

sfcton
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It’s old school HGH and Anadrol that messed with bone structure so much Looks is a funny topic and maybe to broad spectrum to pin down. I am short (5’7”) and not a good looking man. What I am is powerful (235 pounds, nationally ranked in power lifting and strongman). Strongman, throwers, power-lifters, Olympic lifters…. The lower weight class guys are using pretty lean. At the heavier end of the weight classes fat actually works to keep safe, like a shock absorber and all strength sports require thick waists to support and protect the spine. Can we separate dominance from… Read more »

xsplat
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“Can we separate dominance from status?” There is an interplay of variables, and that is what confounds most of the simpler mental maps. The variables are distinct, yet additive and subtractive and holistic. Muscles alone are attractive. And having them will ALSO increase confidence, which is a SEPARATELY attractive trait. The system is so holistic that merely upping your status in one area will have ripple effects into others. And the ripples will show up in tiny micromovements of your face. Getting laid by an attractive woman and having a few others on the side will affect how a man… Read more »

xsplat
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And what especially confounds the simpler mental maps is where there is crossover between different categories of attractive traits. For instance we can make the two different broad categories of attraction that women can feel – for safe long term provisioning, or for sperm from a dominant and physically attractive man. And the we can associate provisioning with money, and therefore categorize all things to do with money with turning on only that type of attraction in a woman – the attraction for provisioning. But there are crossovers and interplays. Money can also be used and interpreted to signal dominance… Read more »

Hobbes
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@asplat- brings something to mind- the role of microexpressions and presence in attraction. My brother is a great example- he is actually very handsome, but our childhood left him psychologically very scarred. He emanates a sad almost defeated vibe. He, I’m so grateful, found a woman who loves him very much and they have a good life together. She is no looker though and people swear up and down that I am more attractive than him. But I’ve done the experiment and showed his pics a few times to gfs and friends, and when they see his pics they say… Read more »

kfg
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sfcton: “The lower weight class guys are using pretty lean. ” At the skinny guy end it’s actually a rather different game. The weight limits make it a power to weight ratio affair and the guys will necessarily start to look more like gymnasts. Trying to make the most of what they’ve got, rather have the most possible. Being stronger, but heavier, can make you bottom man in the weight class one up instead of top man in the weight class below. Sometimes ya gotta get weaker to win. xsplat: Feedback loops, inside feedback loops inside feedback loops. Poke one… Read more »

xsplat
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@Hobbes, yes.

The girls I’m with will take photos of us together. They will be all enthused because when they are with me they feel a lot of attraction.

But when they see the picture they complain that “I ruined it”. The camera never captures what the girl sees.

Hobbes
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@xsplat- I also think people arent realizing that looks can be treated as a negotiated desire as well. Think of a guy who really isnt into a woman, but wants her because she’s hot and will impress his friends. Same thing happens to alphas. Doe she really desire and like you? or is she just trying to score the hot guy so she can show off to her friends and use you as a status symbol? Is that really desire? We all know women are obsessed with status and impressing thier friends. It should come as no surprise that women… Read more »

kfg
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“Which seems contradictory . . .”

. . . if you take it at face value.

Hobbes
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@kfg- well, if she was into him, why dump him? I can understand a post rationalization when dumped, but there is no call for any rationalization when one is the dumper

Tinder Master
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@xsplat: What exactly are you getting at? I didn’t quite understand what you were trying to say. I’m talking about your comment on November 16th, 2014 at 9:09 pm. @Hobbes: I think you’re being too simplistic in your approach on looks and desire and not looking at the big picture. I’m pretty sure everyone knows that attractive people get special treatment simply for being attractive. I won’t deny this. But what the guys are getting at here (as I am too) is the fact that women actually have the capacity to reserve their sexual best for attractive people (alphas) and… Read more »

M Simon
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Because it’s IMPOSSIBLE to have such SMV disparity.

Yes. I can’t tell you the number of times guys remarked to me, “How did you get HER?”

Hobbes
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@TM “Do you honestly think a chick fucks a beta with the same tenacity as an alpha?” actually, yes. I’ve had women dripping and letting loose thorughout my life. Are you so hung up on your looks you think only betas, or uglier men are cheated on? lol or get a woman really hot and bothered? I understand what you’re trying to say, I am telling you, as a 5, that you are wrong. Simple. Plain. My experiences disprove your statements. I don’t know how else to say it. Notice I do not deny the role of looks, nor does… Read more »

xsplat
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@ Tinder Master. You’ll have to give a more specific question as I can’t see which part was unclear. But I’m disagreeing with “if you have to compensate via excessive dominance or by material possessions, ” We play to our strengths. Is having a handsome face compensating for a small dick? Dominance is attractive – compensation doesn’t come into it. It is, in and of itself, attractive. If dominance raises the overall value of the man enough such that invokes genuine desire, then perfect. Strength played to. And the same for material possessions. Wealth can be attractive and increase the… Read more »

M Simon
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Can a man who has never sexually escalated in the face of resistance be able to properly interpret data about such events? I would escalate to reach a desired end point. “Sleep with me naked. No sex. I like the body contact.” And I would escalate and pressure until I got that. And then? I slept with her naked. No sex. About 3/4s came back gagging for it. Why? “Is there something wrong with me? I gave in. Slept naked. No sex. Is he gay? Am I ugly?” And the other 1/4? Well I got to sleep naked with them.… Read more »

kfg
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@Hobbes – It is the rationalization that allows the dumping, because she was into him. She must get out of being into him to dump him, doesn’t she? She got bored, she found another monkey to swing to, she’s dumping him prophylactically to keep him from dumping her; whatever. The thing is she needs to get rid of the guy and she can’t unless she was never into him in the first place, so she rewrites history to make it so. Happens all the time. A lot of really nasty divorces are the result of it. My own ex went… Read more »

xsplat
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I wonder if a properly fucked girl is inclined to cry regret-rape.

I’ve never had any experience of regret sex. Ever. I have no idea what people are talking about.

After sex girls want more sex. Always.

M Simon
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“well, it’s different when a girl genuinely loves her man.” As you point out that is good for a few months at most. It is about 1/2 of a woman’s makeup. The other half as you point out is ruthless hypergamy. To keep that in check you need Game. And all the sub games that go with it. And you can train her to recognize her imperatives (It is difficult. They don’t like it. It reduces their imagined power.) I now have mine trained to say, “I LIKE seeing you with other women. It makes me hot for you.” And… Read more »

Hobbes
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@kfg- I get you. And yeah… rewriting history.. that shit just mindfucks me.
It really does. I see it all the time and my brain wants to pop an vessel.
A recent short term relationship was the worst case I ever ran into. Never applied to our shared history, but it got to a point where she once told me “you never ask about my life” and I told her “I have no idea if its your real life you tell me about, or the rewritten one” she actually laughed.
Nuts

Badpainter
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Gentlemen,  Looks, like everything else, are influenced by context. One’s costuming, demeanor, behavior, and body language are all context driven and all affect appearances. Few men can by the Alpha in every situation. On Tinder, and online dating looks have primacy because that’s the context. A story from my own experience. First I am a big guy. 6’2″ 225lbs, my suit size 54R. I gave into genetics and started shaving my head 10 years ago, I wear a beard often scruffy because I’m lazy. I’ve twice been stopped by at airports by people who wanted my autograph before realizing I… Read more »

D-Man
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Rollo, I am a strong believer in ensuring my interests are served as a priority over any women or family as like you say you cannot take care of others of you cannot take care of yourself. As a result of reading your threads I always refer back to my self as my own point of origin. An interesting point to note is over the past 20 months of reading rational male I have made self improvements (I.e.) studying, saving money, lost weight. My mother in law is very vocal about me loosing weight and going to the gym (she… Read more »

xsplat
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@D-man, I plan on some cosmetic facial surgery this year, and one of my girlfriends keeps objecting. I poked fun at her that it was because she knows I’ll become more attractive to the competition, and she at first denied it. But now she’s open about it and wails “I don’t want you attractive to young girls!”

stuttie
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@softek I related to your post. If you replaced “escalate” with “approach” I could have copy/pasted it myself. After reading all Rollo’s work and the many comments, it seems that many guys have a Game sticking point. Mine is approaching, yours is escalating. I’m tall, broad shouldered, similar cool hobbies, 6 figure job etc but If I had a dollar for every time I talked myself out of approaching due to fear of rejection / embarrassment – I’d be one wealthy dude. I’m working hard on my approach anxiety and slowly getting better. As for escalation anxiety, my advice is… Read more »

xsplat
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And she is only 25 – she means she doesn’t want me to keep up my habit of dating teenagers and early twenty somethings. My newest girl is over thirty years younger than me. By the way if I am to keep up this lifestyle it’s going to require very creative ways to get social access. Online dating isn’t doing it anymore. And to that end I’m developing entire businesses that give me social access in the best possible situations with a large and continuous pipeline of young model quality girls. A lot of guys think that the solution is… Read more »

Amit
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@kfg

RE: Bone re-shaping

Reminds me of what Arnold said about his routines when he trained his checst in the 70s. Along with benching etc he used stiff-armed pull overs to literally ‘expland’ his ribcage.

jf12
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Not entirely off topic. Probably the biggest handle with which to manipulate women is this: women believe that their opinions matter a lot. More specifically, a woman believes that *her* opinion ought to be highly valued. More specifically yet, each woman believes that her *taste* should be revered, and her selection of girl friends usually depends upon mutual reinforcement of fads and objectively irrelevant choices – peanut butter brands, footwear designs, etc. Hence push-pull critiques of her choices, no matter how off-the-wall, will establish you as NOT one of her girls. This is important advice to orbiters. If harsh enough,… Read more »

jeremy
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Rollo, Your argument in this post is basically the same as the Fi/Fe argument I’ve commented in your blog in the past. But instead of writing Fi you write “self as point of origin”, and instead of Fe you write “other as point of origin”. We are Fi or Fe dominant by temperament, and this is inborn in us. We are able to change our personalities through effort (for example, an introvert learns to act extroverted for his own benefit), but these changes are always effortful and cost us energy. It is fine to act Fi-dominant (assuming that is not… Read more »

kfg
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@Amit – That’s an old trick from the Reeves/Park days. There’s a catch to it though; you have to start it while quite young, before final fusing of your structure takes place. It manipulates development rather making a change in the mature form. Manipulating development is quite easy with exercises, binding, starvation, etc. Obesity isn’t the only ‘epedemic’ out there. On the other side of the spectrum from the bipedal sea mammals walking the land are the stick insect girls with 32″ hips. For most of them that isn’t genetic. It results from 800 Cal/day dieting while teens. You know… Read more »

kfg
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@Badpainter – I ran your experience the other way around. It was a major enhancement to my life when I learned that I could make myself disappear in plain sight without even having to go to the Twilight Zone.

The hardest part for me is changing my walk which is generally described as “regal.” The head down, rolled shoulder shuffle just does not come naturally to me.

Do looks matter? Shit yeah. And you can use that get attention – or avoid it.

Glenn
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Doesn’t this dialog really just reflect how inadequate “alpha vs. beta” and “game” are at capturing what’s going on between men and women? I like knowing Red Pill truths about the feminine imperative as expressed in cultural contraptions such as romantic love, courtly love, chivalry etc. But even then, as I’ve studied evolution (and become aware behavioral genetics, group selection, epigenetics etc.) and biology over the past couple of years informally, it’s become clear that there are many other factors at work. Just consider this idea, with respect to group selection. Humans are unique in the history of life particularly… Read more »

redlight
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“Funny thing is, this guy would pull more girls than the most technically proficient PUA out there”

he could but didn’t, had a GF for three years, then got engaged, changed look to boring

PUA Julien is way ahead on head and count, though no longer welcome back to where Corey lives

kfg
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” . . . being mad at reality only makes me miserable.”

You have just described the Social Justice Warrior.

xsplat
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Some other posts related to how being selfish raises attraction: http://xsplat.wordpress.com/?s=selfish

Glenn
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@Xsplat – Spot on. Being selfish raises my perceived value – but because I’ve actually become a selfish prick, I’m not that concerned with the how the hamster works. I’m more concerned with fucking women who want to fuck me. So by boiling it all down to being selfish and looking at my life as a self-improvement project based solely on what I actually want out of life I optimize many aspects of how I interact with women. I also always have multiple female projects going – spinning plates. If I focus on just those three things – I’m set.… Read more »

sfcton
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LOL I say the same basic thing; my success with women is based on my drive to become an apex predator. Pussy is a by product of all the other things I do

redlight
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the four digit count guys I knew couldn’t teach, it would like asking them to teach walking ( they were fun to watch though)

the relatively low SMV guys who are hitting way above average (in real, not picking up a broke stripper) can teach some ideas (which you can read and see for free). That said the women taking courses on how to snare guys get their money back.

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