Boundaries

Urban-Boundaries-1-with-copyright1

The Mate Guarding topic of last week’s post made for some lively debate. It usually does because it’s this behavior, and the root motivators of it, that gets to the heart of dynamics such as an Alpha / Beta mindset, the Scarcity Mentality, Hypergamy, issues of morality and maybe an uncomfortable realization that your LTR has been subject to those motivators.

The purpose and approach men have with regard to mate guarding usually comes down to two positions.

The first being a moral high-ground idea that women do in fact have a moral or rational agency and thus have an obligation to keep their own Hypergamy in check. This may be from a religious perspective, but more often it’s based upon men’s idealistic equalist hopes that a woman can rationally be expected to parse her own investment in what men think should be Relational Equity.

Or in other words, women should know better, and be expected to cooperate with a male imperative by self-regulating their Hypergamous impulses as a matter of personal and social responsibility.

On a limbic level Hypergamy doesn’t care about Relational Equity and openly appealing to a woman’s reason, rationality or sense of responsibility a man believes she should be beholden to is counterproductive in influencing her genuine desires. However, this is usually a self-guided hope that women will recognize and regulate those behaviors at the risk of being socially ostracized in an already feminine-primary social environment.

Again, this can be couched in a religious expectation, but in a secular-equalist sense it amounts to putting the burden of mate guarding on women by presuming their ‘equal rationality’ will result in women mate guarding themselves by policing their own Hypergamy in men’s best interests. Anything less either makes them convictionless or the nebulous “low quality woman” who wont play by the old-order rules and expectations.

The second approach is a proactive mate guarding based on the presumption that mate guarding is a ‘defense’ against mate poaching by other, presumably (but not necessarily) more Alpha men than the one doing the guarding.

Within that context it’s understandable why men would want to protect their personal investment in a woman. What woman wouldn’t be aroused by the prospect of being fought over by two men she perceives as Alpha rivals? It’s a strong affirmation of her desirability and SMV.

Where it turns into a Beta Tell is when a man’s lifestyle revolves around ‘keeping’ her in a possessive sense for fear of losing her because she’s his only viable option for sending his genetic material into the future. That kind of mate guarding is the kind inspired by a scarcity mentality, but it’s also due to long evolved, subconscious sensitivities to her behavioral inconsistencies at or around her time of ovulation.

This is what Dr. Hasselton was getting into in her studies – ovulatory shift in mate preferences created an evolved sensitivity of them in men which in turn produced contingency behaviors (mate guarding) to ensure he wasn’t wasting his parental investment efforts with a child that wasn’t his own.

An evolved mate guarding sensitivity and contingent strategy was basically insurance against men’s cuckoldry risks.

I would argue that a contingent mate guarding strategy evolved not as a direct response to Alpha (or even Beta) competition stresses, but rather due to women’s innate Hypergamy, their sexual pluralism and the potential for parental investment deception when women were left with their Hypergamy unchecked.

If a woman’s predominant perception of you is Alpha, if her mental point of origin is one in which she recognizes her own SMV as being subordinate to your own, she wont be asking your “permission” to go to Vegas with her girlfriends for a weekend because her desire for her Alpha will be stronger than her peers influence on her during her ovulation week.

In theory, no woman who sees you as her perceived Alpha and Hypergamous best interest will want to ‘cheat’ on you – so the idea wont even occur to her. I realize this sounds simplistic until you consider the readiness with which most men will similarly isolate themselves socially, putting off friends and family in preference to spending his time with what he believes is a high-value woman.

Demonstrate, Never Explicate

From The 48 Laws of Power

Law 9

Win through your Actions, Never through Argument

Any momentary triumph you think gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory:  The resentment and ill will you stir up is stronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion.  It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions, without saying a word.  Demonstrate, do not explicate.

There is no greater demonstration of higher value for a man than walking away from a woman. Even a woman’s strongest perception of higher value cannot compete with the self-certainty of value a man has when he disconnects himself from a woman who’s already accepted him for her intimacy.

While Dread (even passive dread) is a strong signal of a man’s higher value, removing your own intimate acceptance from a woman and confirming the value her Hypergamous nature questioned about you is the last word in DHV.

For the first half of their lives, even the most mediocre of women become accustomed to men qualifying for their attention, intimacy and sexual access. Women quickly learn the utility of their first, best, agency with men – the power of sexual control.

So when that agency is proven useless with a man, that control is eliminated and she begins to question her capacity for that control. By removing himself from dependency on that agency he confirms that his SMV is more valuable than her own.

A lot of men report that their unprompted disinterest in sex with a woman, a wife, a girlfriend, often provokes a woman’s imagination with regard to her control and/or inspires a greater sexual determination to please him in order to reestablish this control when they next engage in sex.

There’s precious little that’s more effective at reestablishing Frame for a man than the demonstration of higher value walking away from a woman’s accepted intimacy represents. Some of the best sex you’ll have in your life will come after a reunited breakup.

Now, the reason I’ve detailed this is because the foundations of a man maintaining Frame within a relationship are rooted in limiting or removing this sexual agency and demonstrating higher value as part of that process.

Establishing Boundaries

London Towers on the SoSuave forum started a fairly contentious debate on how a man ought to establish boundaries within a relationship last week:

In my last LTR I never set boundaries, let her hang with her ex, guys, never got jealous, just didn’t give a fuck…because my life was going well and I had no insecurity she wouldn’t do anything because I was the shit. She even wanted her ex to hang with us, just so she could show me off. This actually seemed to work for me as I had some natural alpha state for the first 1 year due to life success and she could feel this, thus other guys were just orbiters. I would even joke to her about who she found attractive in the bar, that’s how self confident I was. This would actually make her want me more.

Then cracks in my game came out, I was going through a rough patch with life and suddenly the game shifted. She would start to compare me to other guys including her ex in a negative way. I suddenly became insecure because I didn’t feel Alpha anymore due to life not going well and suddenly started enforcing boundaries which she would constantly test because she knew I lost my game unlike when I was Alpha and didn’t give a shit. Enforcing boundaries was actually coming from an insecure place and I don’t think your words mean shit if you ain’t got your game tight.

Now, I’m not too sure how I would handle my next LTR. I’m in the process of becoming alpha again, but now truly alpha as in my inner game this time. But would I now still have the not give a sh1t attitude if my girl still hung out with her ex/guys?

Part of me thinks if my game is tight, I give her great sex, pluck at her emotional spectrum, she rides on the magic carpet of my exciting life (which comes from knowing my life mission) she will be hooked on me in a multiple of ways and if she knew I would drop her cold and can easily replace her if she doesn’t provide me with the affection/sex that I need.. she will enforce her own boundaries.

This is the only true boundary I can provide. A girls attention will drop if she starts even emotionally to involve someone else. At that point you just freeze immediately. So the only boundary you can ever enforce is through your attention and her subtle awareness you have options and will walk away with ease at the very beginning of her not providing for your needs. That loss is something she could not deal with.

I’d encourage readers to take the time to read through that discussion and the various approaches to establishing boundaries within a relationship (or even non-exclusive plates you may be spinning). After picking through the differing perspectives I made the connection between establishing boundaries and men’s natural predilection for mate guarding behaviors.

Most of the expressed perspectives tend to side with either of the two mate guarding approaches I mentioned at the beginning of today’s post; one, in which women are rationally expected to police their own Hypergamous impulses, and the other, where an active (and equally reasoned) explicating of boundaries are overtly declared as an ultimatum in an effort to protect a man against the parental investment risks of being cuckolded by a woman he knows can’t be expected not to otherwise succumb to her Hypergamous impulses.

If you notice how London Towers’ story unfolds here he essentially proceeded by demonstrating his higher value, secure in the confidence of it, only to have that DHV eroded due to his life’s circumstance.

This is when the boundary of Alpha indifference he’d organically set (albeit unknowingly), based upon his value, was challenged in his drop of status and esteem. I’ve elaborated in the past about a man’s burden of performance or how women’s concept of ‘love’ is based on a passive opportunism of what a man is (rather than who he is), but you get the picture illustrated for you here.

Next, commenter Soolaimon picks up the opposite end of the extreme:

These boundary guys have it ass backwards.

They are judging women by their words instead of judging them by their actions.

Judge women by their actions and not their words.

Agreeing to a boundary is only her words that these guys think will keep her from cheating.

Women who cut out other men from their lives on their own is a woman who understands what an exclusive relationship is.

Those are her actions you judge her on.

Not useless words she can go back on at any moment.

[…]

Smart classy intelligent women already know what exclusivity means they don’t need to have it defined when they are defining it for you by removing other men on their own.

Women do that for Alphas and not betas who need to set a boundary out of fear.

Women that are really into you will agree to what you want with no problem.

When they lose interest they will still cheat on you making your boundary useless.

If your woman knows what exclusivity means and has the same values as you why are you so terrified to put a ring on her finger and marry her?

There’s a lot to consider when you establish boundaries with a woman. Essentially those boundaries men wish to establish and have respected by a woman really just amount to a codified form of mate guarding.

When you think about it, this is what (at least in an old social order) the marriage contract was meant to insure from a male-beneficial perspective – an assurance of fidelity, but also a contractual insurance against Hypergamy.

Considering the contemporary risks involved, in the current social environment there are any number of reasons men are wary of marrying a woman, but what marriage has become is really a challenge to what a man believes about mate guarding and his confidence in controlling a woman’s Hypergamous nature based upon his degree of desirability to her.

Though I don’t disagree in principle, Soolaimon’s exaggeration is founded on the idea that there’s always going to be a bigger fish; another AMOG to seize your woman’s interest should your combination of Game, material and emotional provisioning, or ambition for such be lacking.

Like most absolutists, he does little to contextualize the preconceptions a woman may have with a particular man they’re already involved with. A woman may fantasize about sex with a more Alpha male during her ovulatory phase, but that doesn’t mean she has the opportunity to realize it – even for “smart classy independent women”.

That said, and after London Towers’ example, it’s impossible not to come to a conclusion that implied, demonstrated boundaries – ones that have actionable consequences of intimate and invested loss (i.e. Dread) – are preferable to explicated, but ultimately appealed-reason declarations of boundaries that are negotiated insurance policies to limit her Hypergamy.

While I do believe boundaries are a necessary part of a relationship, it’s far better for women to discover them for what they are, and the consequences of them, by demonstration rather than overt explanation.

The hand burned by the stove teaches better than any warning.

The only person who’s behavior you can control is your own, but that behavior can have a significant impact on the behaviors of others.

 

181 comments

  1. Top-shelf post Rollo.

    “A woman may fantasize about sex with a more Alpha male during her ovulatory phase, but that doesn’t mean she has the opportunity to realize it – even for “smart classy independent women”.”

    Q. Regardless of whether she already perceives see you as Alpha, do you think women ‘unconsciously’ place themselves in potential situations during the ovulatory phase, whereby they create those opportunities (a GNO / Vegas weekend), or, do do you believe they need to ‘consciously’ remove themselves from those opportunities? Ie. Self-regulating their Hypergamous impulses as a matter of personal and social responsibility.

    it seems you’re dammed if you do (DLV) and dammed if you don’t (she’s fantasizing about other men).

    I agree that Dread is ultimately the best form of mate guarding.

  2. Brilliant post Rollo. Explicating defined boundaries (declaring curfews for GNO’s, insisting on de-friending orbiters on facebook, etc.) is only constraining the woman’s ability to cheat and does nothing to alter her desire to cheat. Introspection that leads to self-improvement would be time better spent.

  3. Women see men as nothing more than a safety net and a path up the social ladder. They use men’s shallow and weak ego and self-esteem to their financial advantage. Men are morons.

    If she can get the financial part on her own, she’s going to go after younger, poorer, more fit and horny men. Why? For the same reason older, wealthier men go after younger, poorer women. It’s all about finance, control and sex, people. Men and women are the same. The only difference between the two is who controls the wealth and power. Laws are being rewritten to give women the power.

    Just remember one thing and you’ll live a happy life: Never give a woman power over any aspect of your life. What does this mean? You figure it out. Most of you will fall at a woman’s knees.

    As a man, you write the boundaries for everything in your life. If a woman ever backs you into a seemingly inescapable spot and expects you to think of yourself as wastepaper, just rely on your instincts. Many a fool has perished backing a dark dog into an inescapable corner. Never let a woman have any control over your life. If you do, you will suffer great regrets.

  4. “Girl’s night out? Ok, we’re getting a babysitter and I’m going out drinking with (insert name of your single player buddy). I’ll meet you afterwards if you like.”

  5. In Islamic cultures in which women are mate-guarded by being forced to wear head-covering-clothes, have their mobility restricted, and otherwise kept separate from other men, is this a sign of fundamental beta attitudes in those cultures?

  6. @ Carlos..that’s just religion, but in a way it’s an EXPLICIT way to force Muslim women to overtly demonstrate their devotion to Allah, and consequently their devotion to their men.

    Christian men do it to. “If you love God, you’ll come correct and not be any other man’s whore but mine”. “If you don’t love God, you’re a dismal failure and should be ashamed”.

    What red pill Christian men are learning is that these women are NOT ashamed – of anything. Christian women are hardly devout in any context, and are no better than heathen women in many ways.

    This is why Dread is exponentially effective. If you love God, cool..but I’m not God and unlike him I do not believe in unconditional love. So – act up and you get the boot. Nothing deep and nothing supernatural. You’re no good to me if you allow yourself to be soiled by some other man. Period. Bye, Felicia.

    Mate guarding is a waste of time…and deep down if you like a chick, it’s hard NOT to do it, but by now, we all know, like MostestDevil wrote..you’re going to regret it.

    Be aloof if you want, but don’t be afraid to drop anyone or anything at the drop of a hat if they aren’t team players.

  7. Rollo, really like your stuff but frankly think you’ve been focusing on being Alpha way too much. Most guys that are below avg in Height will almost never be considered Alpha regardless of what they do. That is 1/2 of all men right there. Not attractive. Too skinny. To heavy. Bald. Introverted. You name it; any little flaw and there are large obstacles to overcome. There is a reason way only a small percentage of men ARE considered Alpha; maybe 10%.

    And Alphas MUST always be on their game. Somebody TALLER. Or BETTER LOOKING. Or DRESSED BETTER. Or as in the article, he runs into some tough life issues; confidence, self esteem issues, etc. And frankly most women while they dream of sex with an alpha would prefer to have a beta as a mate. BB is not all about bucks; true Alpha’s suck in LTRs and women know this intuitively.

    What wish you’d do is focus on Beta’s and what they can do to be more successful with women and have more successful relationships. Beta’s are the vast majority of men and you can do far more to help them than you can do to help true or even faux Alpha’s. So maybe its not “Alpha” to mate guard, but for a beta in a LTR who wants to keep his wife from straying … an actual strategy that WORKS would be a great asset.

    Thanks.

  8. @Carlos, not necessarily Beta per se, but you could certainly make a case that the doctrinal rationale and practice is based on an insecurity that borders on being an obsessive compulsion.

    I’m not Muslim so I probably wouldn’t be the best one to ask.

  9. Moslem nations are odd; yes they put a tight control on their women but they put them on pedestals at the same time. Literally all over the map on that one even within the same tribe/ nation

  10. Great post. Very throught provoking. I was this guy….I sometimes am this guy: totally confident with the girl. Then something she does to undermine me–usually at a weak moment causing me to over-react.

    I’ll share two experiences. Years ago (10?) before I became game aware/Red Pill I went out with a girl who suddenly started playing that game of pulling back, making all sorts of weird demands on defining the relationship instead of just going with it.

    That shifted my insecurities but I was still in charge. One time, she took a guy’s card in front of me. The dude called her and they went to lunch.

    I cut her off cold. She cried and cried and cried. We finally talked about it. She said “You were never jealous, I just wanted to see if you really cared about me.”

    Needless to say we never did get back together but we remain friends to this day. She feels somehow like she blew it with me so she finds ways to stay in touch. Maybe just being in touch is enough. But she respects me in ways she didn’t when we went out.

    Recent case is just this past week. Girl just suddenly breaks it off after period of great times. The way she did it was to suddenly distance herself. So I did too—out with other girls, no contact. But she made it so obvious in the last time we went out I called her on it. She immediately replied we were getting “too close”. Ok. I laid out a boundary: im a man you’re a woman, tell me to my face.” Nope. She was done….at that moment. So I’ve walked.

    A big problem with boundaries is enforcing them. When you encounter something…no matter what it may be…if you are clear in your mind that it’s an offense and you don’t see a change/apology/resolution…ok leave. But this is the hard part.

    In leaving it often drives the girl into such a state of despair that she will literally do anything to get you back…only to dump you. That’s happened before to me as well.

  11. Abandonment is a threat, and an option, but it’s not the only threat, and not the only option.

    Just think of training a dog. If the dog misbehaves, do you abandon it? Threaten to abandon it?

    Abandoning is one essential tool. It’s the ultimate tool. It’s the ultimate boundary.

    But it’s not the only tool nor the only boundary.

  12. ” women should know better, and be expected to cooperate with a male imperative by self-regulating their Hypergamous impulses as a matter of personal and social responsibility.”

    I think that men are expecting something much simpler than that: Integrity.

    If a woman wants to live a life indulging in hypergamy and banging alphas that’s fine. What’s dispicable is broken promises of monogamy, and the damage they do to the lives of men and children. That and tricking betas into thinking she isn’t/wasn’t a CC rider.

    In short: It’s ok to be a skank. It’s not ok to be a lying skank.

    If our modern society was brimming with honest skanks there’d scarcely be a problem.

  13. re: “it’s far better for women to discover them”

    I don’t know, frankly. Sometime I think our womenz is not learning because they are incapable of really learning from their own mistakes.

    If it were really better for your wife, for example, to discover for herself the consequences of her committing adultery, then you may as well set her up in a motel room with some guy and videotape him seducing her … oh wait, wasn’t that a different post?

    Even for relatively lesser things such as a SAHW being lazy and not cooking dinner, is it really better to go through the ordeal of her “discovering” consequences *without* fully explaining them beforehand?

  14. Once blown to smithereens, that’s it. There’s no “twice shy”. There is no possible learning from some mistakes. That’s how civilization developed: learning from others. In recent years it’s become clear that imagining correctly described consequences ought to be more than sufficient, actually it’s stronger than experiencing the consequences directly.

    Paul A. Howard-Jones, Rafal Bogacz, Jee H. Yoo, Ute Leonards, Skevi Demetriou. The neural mechanisms of learning from competitors. NeuroImage, 2010; 53 (2): 790 DOI: 10.1016/j.neuroimage.2010.06.027

  15. Reminded of a girl I overheard once talking to her friends that her boyfriend gets mad whenever she tells him she would leave him for Prince.
    Then she told them she doesn’t know why he would get mad, it’s not like she’s ever going to meet him.
    First thought that came to my mind was the best thing the boyfriend should do the next time is not get mad, but either say or demonstrate that he would leave her for a regular girl he found just walking down the street if he thought she was finer or less annoying.

  16. @Rollo,
    I’m about to finish reading all your posts,
    I’m from a middle eastern background, (I’m agnostic) and I assure you that women are the same even in the middle of the Sahara land and they are fantasizing having sex with the Jinni as we speak.

  17. @WaterUnderTheFridge , deciding which acts are despicable or not doesn’t actually carry any influence.

    We tend to think that it does, but that’s an error.

    People don’t really care what we think about them. They care about the consequences of our actions.

    And women are not integral or integrated. They are segmented, like an orange. Their ego is one thing among certain peers, and another thing in different circumstances. They barely have an ego, as men understand it. So don’t expect integrity from them; it’s impossible. They don’t have it.

    Our emotional reactions to other people actually carry very little weight. Social pressure carries very little weight.

    What matters is consequences.

  18. @watercannon: “Then she told them she doesn’t know why he would get mad, it’s not like she’s ever going to meet him.”

    It’s a shit test, of sorts. His anger is mismanaged, as you said. He’d do better like you said, to do tit for tat and tease her in turn.

    Actually, you do it in stages
    1) ignore
    2) tell her to stop doing that particular shit test, because it is rude. She can do that in private if she has to (contacting guys on her phone in front of you, looking at online dating sites in front of you, etc)
    3) call other girls in front of her in return
    4) get physical – hang up her phone, give her a hard spank, etc
    5) scream
    5) threaten to abandon
    6) abandon

    And in all stages humor and misdirection can be used to diffuse the situation.

    But shit tests can escalate into emotional abuse, and so the man really must get emotionally and even physically violent to prevent being treated like a shit stained doormat.

  19. And the notion that we can just casually next any girl if she messes up really isn’t in line with reality.

    1) girls are not all of the same value to us – some girls are hotter, have better personalities, have a valuable history with us, are trained up according to our desires, have a superior sexual chemistry with us, etc. Girls are not equal and replacable like gears for a gear box – they are all different sizes and shapes and don’t match our needs in the same way
    2) Not all relationships are fuck buddy relationships. You are not an alpha by virtue of only having fuck buddy relationships. Some relationships have deep personal bonds value and meaning to the man.
    3) It is unrealistic to assume that even the most alpha and desired of men is going to constantly maintain a full pipeline of girls of the same quality as the girls the guy is currently in relationship with
    4) maintaining a relationship will certainly have moments of drama, and is certainly an ongoing investment in time. However as a cost of hours and emotional and financial outlay per sex act and other benefits, it’s far more cost effective than getting new girls.

    Yes, maintaining and increasing attraction is worth it, and far superior to nexting, in most circumstances. If you are actually into the girl.

  20. There are also a great many stories online of guys who were once treated as betas by their wives, who successfully turned things around.

    So for them it was certainly not better to just dump a girl who wasn’t really ito him and spend his efforts on getting a new girl. They were able to CULTIVATE attraction.

    Attraction is not just a given thing, set in stone and done, at the first glance. You are not an Alpha or Not-an-Alpha.

    They cultivated genuine sexual desire. Over time. And it was worth the investment.

  21. @xsplat

    I agree with you.

    There are two types of honor/shame:

    1. Internal/Emotional
    An implant that is either installed in a human being’s youth, or isn’t. Properly installed it hurts them when they do X ( lie, cheat, steal, betray etc.) and pleases them when they do Y ( honesty, loyalty, charity etc.)

    This implant works well in men though it isn’t installed as well or as often in recent decades (poor socialization). As far as women go, the implant is almost completely incompatible. A human being that can talk itself into anything is immune, add to that our decreased willingness to punish girls, and we get what we should expect: internal honor/shame is almost non-existent in our women.

    2. Reputation

    Effective on men, less on women due to lighter consequences.

    Ultimately we cannot expect our women to be honest or loyal because they do not have the necessary constraints for these qualities. That idea is so hard to truly accept.

    For some of us no matter how many plates we spin, no matter how many confirmations of red pill and wicked hamstering we see, there is, I’ve become increasingly aware, a deep part of the heart that always expected that for self improvement, and getting better at gaming girls and learning their nature we would be rewarded with an exception.

    I think this is why places like TRP Reddit have so much talk about:

    “Here’s how you make sure you’ve got yourself a trustworthy girl with a low notch count”.

    You can’t.

    Or

    “If you keep Alpha you can rest assured she won’t cheat”

    No. You can’t.

    Some fail to swallow the red pill, they never learn/accept some very significant facts about female nature.

    Some swallow but fail to fully digest, they never accept the ramifications of being designed to love a type of human being who cannot be trusted.

    Hypergamy is hypergamy, but without the dishonesty things wouldn’t be so bad.

  22. @wateruderthefridge.

    Yup.

    We can decrease the risks of cheating. Decrease the risks of having our property stolen. But we can’t eliminate them, as far as I know.

    Risk management and reward management.

    I’ve been able to learn of some of the more extreme rewards that women can provide, and I find such a vast life improvement, that I’ve found it important to be able to stay in the game and minimize as much risk as possible while still getting as much reward as possible.

    But there is always risk. I fully expect losses as built right into the very fabric of the game.

  23. Rollo,

    I have been following you for quite a while now and I really respect and admire the value and insight you have provided to the community and men in general.

    I do not consider myself a men’s rights activist but I have sincerely accepted most of the red pill truths and totally agree with your philosophy and views. I have always been a game-aware individual and I wanted to thank you for helping me evolve my mindset and expand my knowledge in areas where game was lacking enough insight such as LTRs.

    What I wanted to say however is that after reading most of your work and effectively digesting your thoughts and directions, I have been finding myself in a weird position lately and I truly believe that most men out there experience the same feeling.

    I am starting to perceive your advice as a rough guide on how to constantly micromanage my woman’s animalistic/hypergamous nature. Although this is partially what the red pill truth is all about and I really want to thank all the redpillers for enlightening us on this, I really don’t feel comfortable finding myself in this position. I know that the red pill truth is bitter and redpillers had never the intention of making you feel comfortable, but for how long can we actually endure this situation. You have been married for 20 years and I suppose you are doing great but don’t you just feel that this truth is putting you in state of slavery rather than a state of freedom? I mean don’t you feel that after all these years you have managed to influence your wife to some extend and help her evolve the way you did? I am not trying to become an evangelist for egalitarianism here but in my whole life my main purpose was to pursue freedom in all aspects of my life and this situation contradicts severely with my pursuit.

    Yes we are still way far from overcoming our animalistic nature and the impulses our reptilian brain is constantly trying to impose on us but does it really need to be this way? Have you not considered that the more we evolve as species and the more knowledge we gain in many areas, the more we can start gradually escaping this fragile nature and apparently embrace a more free reality. And by we I am not only talking about men but also about our female counterparts.

    By all means I am not trying to be offensive here but I would like your personal view on this and if you have thought about analyzing this in the future.

    Best

  24. Interesting article, Rollo

    Takeaways:

    1. Relationships require management. (Andrian, relationships require work by the man. You don’t get a free pass because you’re alpha.)
    2. Management is by actions primarily and ultimately.
    3. Discuss a woman’s behavior that is risky and shows a lack of self-mateguarding. Assume that a woman will acquiesce to expected self-mateguarding behavior.
    4. Do not negotiate boundaries.

    jf12 had useful input about the importance of verbal lessons.

    xsplat had a helpful observation that women aren’t fungible commodities in relationships. Vaginas are fungible commodities, but not fun, sweet, warm women who make sammiches and self-mateguard.

  25. WELL WRITTEN, THOUGHTFUL, HEAVY ON THE … SINCERELY APPRECIATED.

    THE…………Even a woman’s strongest perception of higher value cannot compete with the self-certainty of value a man has when he disconnects himself from a woman who’s already accepted him for her intimacy.

    IS PRICELESS

    THANK YOU

  26. @xsplat re: “There are also a great many stories online of guys who were once treated as betas by their wives, who successfully turned things around.”

    I have never seen any that seemed at all realistic, and believe me I’ve looked at hundreds of thousands of such online pages over the years. I have seen highly ratcheted-up Dread work, online and irl, but nothing else.

    Although women are very flighty and wishy-washy about all other things, about the one thing a woman never changes is whether she treats a particular man as beta. Empirically once beta always beta.

    As you’ve said before, probably the husband can successfully *manage* his wife treating him as beta, but I don’t count that as “turning things around”.

  27. tasdg makes an excellent point. “Vaginas are fungible commodities, but not fun, sweet, warm women who make sammiches and self-mateguard.”

    Obviously it would be ludicrous to Next a good woman. But I think that point has to be made explicitly anyway, because someone’s gonna argue otherwise. Lousy women are indeed fungible, since there are so many of them.

  28. @xsplat re: Hawaiian Libertarian / Keoni Galt / Dave from Hawaii.

    Yes, I’ve read him extensively in the past, including the several different versions, originally redpill now purplepill, of what he thought finally did the trick within his own marriage. I think it’s very nice that his wife managed to change herself into something more closely resembling a good wife. I’d be curious to learn what she believes i.e. which changes in KG’s behavior were most closely correlated with the changes in her behavior.

    I do not believe most/all women respond properly to being treated well. I think it’s far far far far more effective for a man to treat a woman badly,evilly, abusively, bullying etc., if it is the *man’s* behavior that is supposed to cause the woman’s behavior to change for the better.

  29. I am currently writing a book for Koreans traveling to America. I have a chapter on dating I am working on.

    In Korea, the main value in a relationship is HARMONY. In America the main value in a relationship is TRUST.

    Because East Asians/Koreans value HARMONY, anything that interferes with harmony, some opposite sex friend beta orbiter or alpha guy can be safely eliminated from the equation. Couples can be honest how they feel and say,” I don’t like when you talk with him, it makes me feel “. Or the can be more “Patriarchal” and say, DON”T TALK TO HIM ANYMORE.

    However, in America, TRUST is the main value. So American women will say, ” Im having GNO” and you cross your fingers and put on a poker face and agree.

    If you are honest with your feelings, and say, I am worried some bigger better richer funnier guy will attract you. She will think you are a weak bitch and consider breaking up with you.

    Meanwhile if you go Patriarchal on her and tell her, “DON’T TALK TO HIM ANYMORE, or NO GNO for you” She or her friends will accuse you of being “controlling or something like that and that will cause major problems. SO the only option for an American man with an American women is

    POKER FACE – acting cool, unaffected by the opposite sex friend, GNO.

    Xsplat is right about Shame lacking in North America. It is something that has to be woven in from the beginning.

    In East Asia, couples are not allowed to have opposite sex friends and hang out with them alone. If they do have an opposite sex friend, they must hang out with them in a group. These social conventions keep hypergamy in check.,

  30. @xsplat

    “And the notion that we can just casually next any girl if she messes up really isn’t in line with reality. ……….. Yes, maintaining and increasing attraction is worth it, and far superior to nexting, in most circumstances. If you are actually into the girl.”

    This needs to be said, thank you.

    But then, earlier on…”But shit tests can escalate into emotional abuse, and so the man really must get emotionally and even physically violent to prevent being treated like a shit stained doormat.”

    Physical violence is not in the tool box. Nor is physical escalation in the face of last minute resistance. Nor is the statutory rape of a minor.

    Oh, where you live it’s acceptable for an (your self-description) old ugly man to fuck a 17 year old girl? (Nov 16 9:39PM Mental Point of Origin). Well, there is a concerted effort right now by NGO’s to shame guest countries into enforcing home country age of consent laws, Where these efforts have been successful (Cambodia to date), they are being applied ex post facto to sex tourists and, yes, even expatriates.

    Related article: http://www.economist.com/news/international/21632522-laws-teenage-sex-are-converging-so-thinking-about-their-purpose-how-young-too

    Assault, battery, sexual assault, sexual battery, and statutory rape are against the law. Sure, definitions can be parsed by jurisdiction, but the fact remains that NOBODY should behave in a manner that could be construed (even if factually innocent) as any of these things.

    @jf12

    “As you’ve said before, probably the husband can successfully *manage* his wife treating him as beta, but I don’t count that as “turning things around”.”

    I completely agree. The former beta, but now self-anointed alpha, only has to slip up once before the wife veritably unloads in a quest to reestablish the beta. Lost ground needs to be regained (through soft dread) as soon as practicable.

    This CNN story got me in trouble:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/living/2014/11/17/newday-intv-cuomo-blanc-dating.cnn.html

    The FI will now paint anyone who even questions the status quo with the Julien Blanc brush. This groveling asshole set me back weeks.

  31. @xsplat re: purplepill.

    Over at the Dalrock’s, Dave pecked out the following sequence of ASCII text characters: “An unapologetically manly man will cause gina tingles in virtually all women, irrespective of his social or economic status. If the guy in church displays the manhood that was evident in Christ, most of the sisters would swoon over them.”

    Obviously those words have no correspondence to reality, at all, but they do tell us of what Dave, and many men like me, would *prefer* to be true.

    Doctrinal aside, for those who care, Christ’s female followers were not lusting after his manhood. Also, Scripture tells us He lacked physical attractiveness and nobody desired him.

  32. “The hand burned by the stove teaches better than any warning.”
    Gems….
    You are on a roll these last months brother.
    RT has really helped me realize what I think all men already know but subsume to convention – feminine imperative, gynocentrism, etc – the medium is the message.
    There’s this neighbour I’m trying to get to put out…everything I’m learning from RT & the manosphere is being displayed, shaming, shit tests…medium is truly the message.
    And today’s post…On point!!!
    Basically, be aware that you have value and be willing (& able) to walk away…it’s always best for a man to act such a way as to produce the desire for a woman to change her herself to suit the object of her desire, to police her hypergamy.

  33. @jf12 , I have no first hand knowledge of what happened with the guys who claim to have increased the frequency and quality of sex and lessened the strife with their wives. But I know that in my life the act of laying down boundaries and expectations does not all happen on the first date. So the framework of a cultivated sexual response to a cultivated alpha persona is in line with my personal experience.

    Now of course by now I lay a lot down immediately – in fact that’s a big part of my fast seduction style – to act from very early on as if we are already familiar. People very quickly fall into familiarity. Sexual familiarity, as well as couple-dynamic familiarity. In the first fucking session people can make love, as well as grunt fuck. It doesn’t take long habituation.

    But still, some things take time, and some dynamics are cultivated.

    And some of those cultivated dynamics lead to the woman treating the man with all the signature alpha-sucking-up-to tells, such as sucking his dick in public.

  34. @bbb re: “Physical violence is not in the tool box.”

    Correct. But a woman would do well to *perceive* the threat of violence anyway, to help herself maintain the proper respect in LTR.

    My soft Dread was too impotent, apparently.

  35. I do not believe most/all women respond properly to being treated well. I think it’s far far far far more effective for a man to treat a woman badly,evilly, abusively, bullying etc., if it is the *man’s* behavior that is supposed to cause the woman’s behavior to change for the better.

    Treat em mean to keep em keen.

    Ya, but 80 or 90% of the time they have to feel warm and comfortable with you.

    Yes, you can’t be honey all the time, and even vinegar is not always harsh enough.

  36. @bbb

    Assault, battery, sexual assault, sexual battery, and statutory rape are against the law. Sure, definitions can be parsed by jurisdiction, but the fact remains that NOBODY should behave in a manner that could be construed (even if factually innocent) as any of these things.

    Man, you are such a fan of hyperbole and exaggeration.

    I mention a spank and unhooking bras and sex with a 17 year old and you bring up all these completely unrelated things, such as sex with a minor, sexual assault, sexual battery, etc.

    We don’t have to tip toe around so cautiously. Stop making shit up.

  37. In my country the legal age of consent is 16, by the way.

    The girl told me she was nineteen, and will be eighteen in a few months. I have nothing against her being 17. Not a damned thing.

    If I date a 21 year old for five years, in five years she’ll be 26. Have you ever compared a 26 year old ass against a 21 year old ass?

    In 5 years the 17 year old will be 22.

    It’s no wonder that people in the US, Europe, and every fucking where else on the whole planet used to marry women of the age of fourteen not that long ago historicically and since for ever.

  38. @rocket

    > What wish you’d do is focus on Beta’s and what
    > they can do to be more successful with women
    > and have more successful relationships
    >… an actual strategy that WORKS would be a
    > great asset.

    I will recommend my essays about appropriate masculinity, especially this one:
    http://davidvs.net/hobbies/masculinity-connection.shtml

    There are ways to connect with people better that anyone can learn. Being the best man that she can picture herself getting is largely about her memories of how well you two relate,

  39. Regarding Charles Bukowski game, that short temper can be a byproduct of long heavy drinking.

    It’s been about five years since I was a regular drinker – I drink less than once a month now – but I’m very familiar with the drinkers short fuse. I look at that clip and just smirk. Most guys would not be able to intuit the response to expect to such actions. A fiery temper is base and crass. Cave man. That not holding back instant expression of primal emotions tends to elicit some primal responses. I’m not sure if 1 in 100 guys can intuit what those responses are. You pretty well have to live through that lifestyle to know it.

    But from previously being a heavy drinker who didn’t work hard to moderate his emotions, I did learn that that style was personally valuable, and so have for the most part kept that style – although now as a sober man.

    Cave man emotions. It just works.

  40. jf12, don’t know if you’re following my Dread Game reports anymore, but looks like Mrs. Gamer has settled down as far as her insecurity tests go. I woke up today and thought, “Wow, guess I’m happily married!” Don’t know how long this will last.

  41. Here is an example of my Charles Bukowski style game. (I’ve never read his books and that’s the only clip of him I’ve ever seen).

    Two nights ago my new 17 year old came over late. She had been clubbing and had a few drinks, and fucked me like a wild animal possessed by the spirit of another wild animal. In the morning she was unresponsive and distant.

    That pissed me off.

    So after five minutes of gently trying to get some action started, I just got up, pulled my shorts over my lubed dick, and started walking out.

    She clung to my t-shirt and physically tried to prevent me from going. She kept pulling at me, following me down the stairs naked, from the 4th floor of the building that I rent all the way down to the 2nd floor. I gave her a nice wave goodbuy before I left and walked over to fuck my 18 year old.

    She visited again last night, and asked me where I went. “Out.”

    “You were with a girl, weren’t you!”

    “I was just out.”

    The next morning she was again a bit cold and distant, but I just lay on the bed, and let her come to me. She casually started arousing me, and then I locked the door and manhandled her into a long and rough and later mutually intense fuck. After that she cuddled with me as I slept for a few hours.

    That’s the kind of thing that I mean about developing actual real desire through dominance. Ya, in a way it’s treating the girl like shit. But it’s not though. It’s treating her in a way that she knows she no choice but to respect you and treat you well.

    And that makes her happier. She will be happier treating a man well. Even if she is being treated a bit like shit, some of the time.

    And events like that also give me much more leeway to be sweet and romantic. As long as you have balance you don’t have to worry so much about being overly beta, some of the time. And then the more romantic stuff is really appreciated. Wow! He sent me an SMS! He really cares!

  42. Oh, and a few days ago I had left her asleep in my bed to go visit a different girl, and came back with a heart and “I love you” drawn in pen on my belly. I forgot to wipe it off and she discovered it while I was naked with my belly near her face.

    I turned around and quickly rubbed it off and claimed first “oh, it’s just dirt”, and then “oh, I drew it on myself”.

    Both excuses were transparently lame. But I didn’t care how lame they were. I wasn’t trying to pretend they weren’t lame.

    And I didn’t really see her seeing that as much of a problem, really.

  43. @Rocket

    more successful with women and have more successful relationships. Beta’s are the vast majority of men and you can do far more to help them than you can do to help true or even faux Alpha’s. So maybe its not “Alpha” to mate guard, but for a beta in a LTR who wants to keep his wife from straying … an actual strategy that WORKS would be a great asset.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/12/05/build-a-better-beta/

    IMO, soft dread is the best form of mate guarding
    https://therationalmale.com/2013/05/13/soft-dread/

    FWIW don’t expect me to build you up as a ‘positive’ Beta, you’ll only get what you’ve gotten if you keep doing what you’ve done. It’s ultimately up to you to decide what a satisfactory lifestyle is for you, but I doubt you’d be reading my material if you were content with being a ‘good’ Beta.

    I’m not Athol Kay, I don’t sugar coat the message to accommodate the sensibilities of women or men who are comfortable in their Beta mindset. You wont find Blue Pill apologies here. You’re correct, Betas are the majority of men, they’ve got that part down pretty well for themselves and they don’t need a purple pill to make them think they can supplicate to women and expect her to fuck him like the Alpha she fantasizes about once a month.

    You’re reading me because none of that ‘positive’ Beta attitude has generated the female response you were conditioned to expect it should.

  44. the best way to up the alpha is to become dangerous and or master a high risk hobby

    everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence and the ablity to take on risk

  45. @Andrian,

    I am starting to perceive your advice as a rough guide on how to constantly micromanage my woman’s animalistic/hypergamous nature.

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/02/03/tales-of-hypergamy-recursive-game/

    Micromanagement is what men men believe Game and the Red Pill is all about before they internalize this awareness and incorporate it into who they are:

    As you think so shall you become.

    Neo: “What’re you trying to say, that I can dodge bullets?”

    Morpheus: “No Neo, what I’m saying is that when you’re ready you wont have to.”

    There comes a point of internalization when your Game-awareness becomes part of who you are. There is no longer a need to mentally sort out what may or may not be going on with the women you’re interacting with. One of the first resistances I usually read from men when they first pick up on Plate Theory is that they could never manage more than a single woman’s interest at one time. Usually this is due to a fear of being caught by one or more women or thought of as a Player, but the premise is one of not having some imagined resources, time and energy to keep more than a single plate spinning at once.

    Do you see where this is going?

    It’s all about his effort, and his time management, and his capacity or talent for juggling all the responsibilities necessary to convince and qualify for a woman’s effort towards him. He and his concerns are not his mental point of origin and so don’t factor into his concept of what Game could be for him. It’s always energy and resources flowing out, rather than even having the temerity of thought to think that a woman’s effort should come to him.

    When Game is internalized for a Man, he is his mental point of origin. Game critics like to frame this self-concern as sociopathy or Dark Triad, but these distractions from putting himself as his mental point of origin have the latent purpose of keeping him extending himself outward. For as much as it’s rewarded, no one wants to be thought of as an asshole, but Game-awareness doesn’t necessitate being a selfish prick, just putting oneself as their mental point of origin.

  46. When it’s all said and done, a woman, whether she’s a fling, a GF or a wife, will do what she wishes to do and decides to do. The trick for the man in the relationship is to make it so she wants to do what is most beneficial for the man and for the relationship. Sometimes she will choose to do what he wants, sometimes not.

    The man also has to put down his boundaries and institute clear consequences for crossing them. If she crosses them, the man has to impose the consequence.

    The man and/or the relationship has to be high enough value to her such that worsening the relationship or losing it altogether is a less appealing choice than working to preserve it. If you are not high value enough, or if she doesn’t care about the relationship for whatever reason, then nothing a man does, no boundaries he sets nor consequences he imposes, will do anything to save it. If she doesn’t want to remain in the relationship, it’s over, no matter how “alpha” he is.

    It’s less a case of micromanaging her hypergamy and feral nature as it is managing oneself, one’s own awareness of self and the world around him. and one’s expectations. I don’t manage my wife’s hypergamy. I manage my expectations of her; and I manage myself by remaining aware of her nature. In the end, Mrs. deti will do what she chooses to do, good or bad; and there will be concomitant and responsive consequences for what she chooses, good or bad.

  47. There are at least three different aspects to mate guarding, and they should be considered independently.
    .

    Mate guarding, as an attempt to prevent infidelity, directly, cannot work.

    It sends the wrong message, and if a woman wants to cheat, she will find a way around any relevant boundary.

    However, a woman needs boundaries, as a direct expression of male dominance (and which show that her man has self-respect), and as an unambiguous way for her to experience and participate in the submission part of the relationship dynamic (which is natural for her).

    For example, her going on a Girls Night Out, as part of a group whose objectives are to get drunk and pick up men, would be disrespectful as well as potentially problematic.
    .

    Mate guarding can be necessary, as a proper response to a test, because women also need to verify male dominance by proving (testing) boundaries.

    For example (from an earlier comment): “One time, she took a guy’s card in front of me. The dude called her and they went to lunch. I cut her off cold. She cried and cried and cried. We finally talked about it. She said ‘You were never jealous, I just wanted to see if you really cared about me’.”

    Unless a man is explicitly in control of his relationship (like in the way that I described in the “/2014/11/11/beta-tells/” thread), this type of implicit boundary may be the only one that is available, for all verification purposes, and this can lead to disastrous results.

    For this reason, there needs to be unambiguous common understanding of actions that would be irrecoverable, and this should be established, clearly, as early as possible.

    Redhead and I ended up being like two random zipper-halves that meshed perfectly, so (strangely enough) we had our first discussion (which she started) about Really Important Things, only minutes after we first met, as we were walking down the produce aisle of a healthy food store.

    This was when I told her that her well-being would be extremely important to me, but that I was going to be in complete control, and that she was welcome to test me however she wanted, except with other men, because that would end the relationship.
    .

    Mate guarding also includes protecting your woman from other men (but not in the sense of protecting yourself from your woman).

    When an interloper approaches, it should be her responsibility, first, to tell him that she belongs to you (but remember that the two of you may have grown up with different experiences and expectations, and that neither one of you is a mind reader).

    After that point, the responsibility shifts to you to manage the situation.

    Since we do not frequent places where situations can be made irrational and unstable by alcohol, Redhead’s self-identification as my property, combined with my presence (or return) and attitude, is usually enough to bring such encounters to a close.

    The only exceptions have been the few times when there was significant tension, because the guy was there with his buddies, and did not want to lose status.

    In such cases, my standard operating procedure is to first try to reorient them mentally, by saying something like “since we share the same taste in women, let me buy you and your friends … [a beer, if the restaurant serves alcohol, or something small, like an appetizer, and so on]”, to let him save face, while putting my arm around his shoulders and gently leading him away.

    Redhead has seen me use BJJ, so that aspect is not an issue and is always available, but finding a way for everyone to avoid loss is far preferable to allowing a fool to pull me into an altercation that creates disruption for everyone in the vicinity (and ruins expensive clothing), and then possibly having to waste the rest of the evening filling out reports.

  48. @ ton

    the best way to up the alpha is to become dangerous and or master a high risk hobby

    I recommend javelin-catching.

    everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence and the ablity to take on risk

    There ya go. Catching incoming javelins is risky.

    lolz

  49. A thedeti

    The man and/or the relationship has to be high enough value to her such that worsening the relationship or losing it altogether is a less appealing choice than working to preserve it.

    Yes, and this is another way in which the alpha bux/beta fuck dichotomy can break down.

    A woman loves pragmatically. She will subconsciously calculate the mans value to her, as an overall picture. And this calculation will affect how much she fucks him and wants to suck his cock. And the calculation can include how much she needs his money.

    Necessity is the mother of good blowjobs.

    Now that might sound like manipulation, or it might sound like some economic exchange. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then isn’t it a duck? If the woman feels love and wants to suck cock, then who is to argue that her wanting the man’s financial support is some sort of cheating negotiation? Her hindbrain made the calculations, and her genuine pussy juice flowed egged on by those calculations.

    I’m not denying the alpha fux beta bucks dichotomy. I’m just saying that there are overlaps and feedback loops that intersect between the two categories.

    The man can become and feel and behave more dominant as part of his increased income. He can use the money in sexually attractive ways, such as by throwing parties where he is top social dog, having greater free time and better social positioning, and on and on.

    So it’s not just that wealth can increase status and confidence, but the increased lifestyle can cause subconscious calculations that feed into the hypocampus and whisper “release the pussy juice”.

  50. Hi Rollo,
    I’m pumped about book 2!
    Please consider putting this one in it: Plate Theory V: Lady’s Game

    Plate Theory V: Lady’s Game is key

  51. Mate guarding is not a one situation event. There is classic beta mate guarding which I think most everybody is talking about, that is, some insecure schmuck with no boundaries or control over his woman, who is deathly afraid that she’ll stray because he knows that he’s outgunned in the SMP by a whole swath of men. He knows this because his gf openly flirts with other men, treats him like a schmuck, etc. So he jumps between her and any man she sees talking to her.

    The second case is that the woman in fact is yours, you’re the alpha, and she clearly rejects the advances of other men. However, sometimes another guy will persist in unwelcome ways with her, despite her clearly telling him to go away. At that point it’s not so much beta mate guarding as it is a man standing in proxy for a woman who is weaker than an aggressive and unwanted advance.

    For example, you’re camping with a group, which includes some douche you’ve never met before (friend of a friend of a friend deal). He keeps hitting on her, she gives him no reciprocal signs of interest, she tells you that he’s creeping her out, he skulks away in your presence, and you think all is ok. Later that night she goes to the camp latrine and there he is waiting outside when she comes out, throws his arm over her shoulder roughly (he’s drunk) and she’s clearly trying to get away, with limited success. Mate guard away in that case, she’s in actual danger and if you don’t, you’re more than an asshole, you’re a sociopath.

    Distinctions and context are key. There can be alpha mate guarding. If you cannot stand up for your woman when she’s being assaulted bordering on sexually assaulted, you probably shouldn’t be dating.

  52. Tl;dr – if you’re guarding her as you would guard a small child or a weaker male friend, that is, from assault and actual physical bullying, that’s cool. If you guard her because you’re an insecure dweeb who fears that she’ll walk on you with the first guy that talks to you, then you need to up your self esteem and SMV, stat.

    This all assumes you care for her of course.

  53. When I wrote “After that point, the responsibility shifts to you to manage the situation”, I was thinking about “management” in the sense that the threat, to her, is no more than annoyance.

    Otherwise, I agree with The Burninator.

    And Ton was right when he wrote: “the best way to up the alpha is to become dangerous and or master a high risk hobby … everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence and the ability to take on risk”.

    Until you do this, you cannot truly understand what he is talking about.

  54. Also, being disrespected by some random fool is just noise, and does not merit much of a response, in and of itself.

    However, being disrespected on your home turf or in a significant environment is serious, and must be quashed immediately and completely, and in a way that leaves no doubts.

  55. And Ton was right when he wrote: “the best way to up the alpha is to become dangerous and or master a high risk hobby … everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence and the ability to take on risk”.

    LOL

  56. Last comment,

    Please Keep the pictures in the book. Pictures increase retention. They put the abstract into the concrete.

    Pics = way more effective book

  57. @ ton
    “the best way to up the alpha is to become dangerous and or master a high risk hobby”

    I disagree. I’m into skydiving, and it’s just about the most high risk hobby there is. doesn’t make me any more of an alpha…..just means that i’m into a high risk hobby. A woman’s gina isn’t going to tingle just because I jump out of a plane. There has to be the element of douche rag loser piece of shit there beforehand before skydiving would change anything. Then again, since women like doucherag loser pieces of shit, I wouldn’t need to be involved in anything high risk.

    “everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence and the ablity to take on risk”

    take a risk every time i jump out that plane. just as above, doesn’t change anything.

  58. “I disagree. I’m into skydiving, and it’s just about the most high risk hobby there is. doesn’t make me any more of an alpha…..just means that i’m into a high risk hobby.”

    It depends on your mindset and nature. And note that he said “master” a high risk hobby.

    If you are just an adrenaline junkie and numb to everything else, then no, there will be no other benefits, because there will be no self-development through discipline and pushing your mental and physical limits.

  59. A few questions come to mind
    Is there a difference between PDA and mate guarding? I’ve always been a very kino type of guy- probably one of the reasons I did ok even at my worst BP days. I never did it with fear in mind that I can think of, it’s just always been a thing to hold hands, put my hands in the small of her back etc. If anything I always chiled it a bit if other people are around or engaging.. otherwise I just do all that stuff kind of naturally. Now I’m wondering if that was maybe mate guarding? It would be nice to know the difference there
    I agree completely with dread being the best way to go. Talking about stuff never worked for me at all. Since my father was a very jealous man, I grew to ate all tings jealous and insecure, so I always tried my best never to show it. But it has bitten me in the ass more than once- women will start saying I don’t care, complaining that I have one foot out the door etc. it’s really become a problem and ended two relationships.
    I cam to think that my “whatever” attitude towards stuff was a beta thing, and the alpha thngs was to make demands.. this seems to turn that on its head..
    So I was right before? So why did it push them away as opposed to what it’s saying here- that they would come closer?
    Been thinking alot about boundaries and expectations lately- I really appreciate this post

  60. Also, all high-risk activities will not necessarily be seen as Alpha by women.

    The totality of what Ton has done is much more high-risk than just skydiving. And yet, as he has told us, women do not always appreciate these accomplishments.

    Women are unduly impressed by shiny and flashy things, as are pigeons and squirrels.

  61. I think a lot of more insecure guys like to rationalize mate guarding as protecting or guarding their mate from a subjectively more Alpha guy than themselves.

    The evolved instinctual sensitivities and consequent behaviors that constitute a suspicious guarding of a woman don’t originate from running off a sexual rival, but rather from the subconscious understanding that (particularly during ovulation) a woman wants to have an extra-paired mating with a more sexually dominant, sexually desirable male.

    Fighting off a sexual rival can be considered ‘guarding’, but a mental need to guard a woman originates from men’s instinctual sensitivity to women’s Hypergamy and the behaviors it prompts them to.

  62. If a girl wants to cheat and you’ve past the point of no return (in extreme betaness), then nothing you do will stop her from cheating.

    Case in point:
    I hardly have much experience banging older women (only banged two), but on one occasion, I banged some ho who was married and had two kids. I first saw her walking adjacent to me on campus and while her face was hot from a far, her body screamed fertility. She had that ass that latin women are most known for, so I instinctively had to say something to her. I was already envisioning how I would bang her, that’s how bangable her body was. Anyway, I got up close and I instantly knew she had to be at least 10 years older than me. I placed that at the back of my mind and went for the digits anyway. She was all smiles when I approached her and she kept asking me questions so I knew I had something going on with this potential bang.

    I text her a couple of days later, and I shit you not, she responds within a minute. I set up something at a bar near campus and we meet there. Turns out, she’s getting her masters in some bullshit major. I get to know her better and she slips something out that threw me for a loop. I simply ask her what she likes doing for fun and she names the typical boring shit girls do up until she mentions, “…and playing with the kids.”

    Wait, what? Lol

    I look at her ring finger and I don’t see anything. So I just assume she’s a single mom, and still keep my goal in mind. Fast forward through it all and I’m banging her in her SUV. We bang three more times after that and then, she invites me over to her house. I knew something was up when she took this long to invite me over (most girls invite me over the first time they’re dtf or the second time they’re down to bang). I get there and her house is fucking huge. Near mansion style with a swimming pool, Jacuzzi and everything. It didn’t make sense because she’s a simple manager, how the hell could she afford this alone? (Remember, I never pressed about her kids or potential husband/bf. I wanted to see if she’ll let me know on her own.)

    I won’t bore you with the details but eventually, I came to find out that she has two kids and a husband, who at the time, was away on business. Her kids would be at their cousin’s house when I would come over. I asked why she didn’t bring up her husband before we hooked up and she said, “I didn’t view him like that anymore.” I didn’t get it at the time but I do now.

    The moment a guy turns too beta, a girl can mentally exit out of the relationship (via Heartiste style) and it’s all up for grabs for any alpha. At this point, I think the possibility of mitigating this with soft dread, especially after she has banged the new guy, is fruitless. Your constructed indifference will only strengthen hers, for she is not “yours” anymore. Guys are much better off finding new girls to bang. Guys who are married (and with kids) have it a hell of a lot harder than most, because he’s putting all his eggs in one basket, so to speak.

    I have many more experiences like this one (mainly about gfs cheating) but I use this example because it’s so extreme in a way. She was with her husband for over 10 years, had kids, a great place to live, financially set, and still chose to cheat. Goes to show you that the length of a relationship or what you both “have gone through” really doesn’t matter when she’s craving alpha.

    Like they say, 5 minutes of alpha is worth more to a woman than 50 years of beta.

  63. @TheDeti
    “The man and/or the relationship has to be high enough value to her such that worsening the relationship or losing it altogether is a less appealing choice than working to preserve it”

    This can prevent many types of bad behaviour, unfortunately it will not prevent sexual infidelity. It’s simply far too easy for a woman to cheat without being caught. Quite reasonably she does not expect consequences, so no ultimatum, tacit or explicit, will stop her. Only honor would do the trick.

  64. I agree with Tinder here.. when a woman decides to go, she’s gone. Nothing you do will change it and will actually just become part of her rationalization. Dread game? she’ll say she was justified in cheating because you never made her feel safe. Made her feel safe? she’ll just say that she loves you, but is not IN love with you anymore, etc etc..
    The only disagreement with Rollo and TM here is the thought that alphas arent getting cheated on with regularity.
    Yes,they are.
    Women are amazing creatures that way. Remember, women crave alpha certain times of the month, but also crave beta sometimes of the month too. I’ve seen more than a couple of really alpha guys get cheated on. Usually it happens after some feelings of resentment or feeling not cared for by the alpha. They bang some other beta guy who gives her attention because she needs the validation.. or revenge or whatever else they can rationalize it on.
    The only defense from being cheated on is not to become monogamous with women for longer than a few months.

  65. @Rollo
    Me too. Only honor WOULD do the trick. Sadly it’s not on the menu. Very glad you added that link. Even as I said it I had in my head what you had said about honor being a tool invented by man, which woman uses against him while pretending she too adheres to it….if you don’t think I’ve misconstrued it by shortening it.

  66. I agree with what Rollo has written.

    On a related topic, in male dominated and led relationships, a natural dynamic (figuratively speaking, and not as some absolute limit) is that the woman takes care of their inner world, while the man interacts with the outer world, and acts as its boundary.

    So when she tells someone that she belongs to you, she has essentially retreated within your home and closed the door.

    At that point, continuing persistence by another man is equivalent to a stranger pounding (or worse) on your front door.

  67. but also crave beta sometimes of the month too.

    Yeah, when they need something to make life easier.

    Women don’t bang guys for validation, they bang them because the exchange is good while they’re waiting for the Alpha to get done with one of her girlfriends and she’s on her upcycle.

    They bang Betas because they recognize their necessity for doing so in order to ensure a long term provisioning. Women cheat with Alphas and on Betas, but you are right they will bang Betas when necessary or just often enough to keep the intermittent reward dynamic working for her.

  68. @Rollo
    I’d love your opinion on something that I think about often lately.

    I believe that exclusivity of intimate and sexual attention increases the feelings for the target. I’ve experienced monogamy and I’ve experienced non monogamous though affectionate relationships.

    There are plenty of reasons to avoid monogamy (for example decreased capacity for dread game), but one reason to want it, even without sexual jealousy, is the basic reality that human attention is finite and divisible, including the types of attention we call lust and love. I know that when my intimacy is divided between women it dilutes the strength of my love and a little bit my lust too.

    My favorite plate is sweet/young gorgeous, other than being promiscuous she’s perfect ( as ridiculous a sentence as that is ). She wants monogamy with me, I’m tempted to give it to her, because her lust and affection have more value to me than any of my other plates, an undiluted version of her lust and affection seems like it would be more valuable than all of them.

    Hopefully there are some points there you can elucidate, then again maybe I’m just asking the prophet to give me permission to develop oneitis for a high notch count girl.

  69. Rollo wrote:
    “Fighting off a sexual rival can be considered ‘guarding’, but a mental need to guard a woman originates from men’s instinctual sensitivity to women’s Hypergamy and the behaviors it prompts them to.”

    That reminds me of the ev. psychologist David Buss who wrote a book about why jealousy is as necessary as sex and love. “Humans are jealous because non-jealous people were not our ancestors.” First chapter: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/buss-passion.html

    The discussion here about how different men (alpha, beta etc.) express that instinct is most interesting.

    There was a comment about how women who self guard tend to be less sexual by nature, so there is a trade off in choosing that kind of woman. Are betas more likely to make that choice? Is it an alpha thing to engage the ‘high risk’ women? Is that what the tie-in is with alphaing up by getting comfortable with high risk hobbies, getting used to risk and losing a few now and then?

  70. @Rollo- exactly. But a cheat is a cheat. If the guy is alpha enough, he probably won’t care much.. but even the best of alphas can be layed low by a cheating spouse/gf if he’s in any way invested in her.
    End result is alpha or beta- keep your eyes open.. no self comforting lies, no end, as you say, to performance.

  71. @thepatriotblogspot re: danger

    Well, yuh see, there’s cool danger, and there’s uncool danger. High school nerd risking blowing his face off by mouth-pipetting nitrating acid to perform heavily unsanctioned experiments in the woods, somehow doesn’t arouse the girls’ dreams.

  72. @Hobbes:

    I wouldn’t say, “women crave beta”. Alphas are something they do crave but a beta is something they’re “eh” or “okay” about. Also, I don’t think anyone here has stated that alphas don’t get cheated on. They do. Hell, even I got cheated on once (that I could confirm). I suspect that there was probably two other times but that wasn’t ever confirmed.

    Now, where alphas do have the advantage, is they’re more likely to consistently have their girl on check during their luteal/ follicular phase of the month AND the week she’s most fertile (which let’s be honest, is the time where it matters most to us). That’s the difference. Betas have a larger propensity to get cheated on because on a limbic level, during her ovulatory phase, her id craves a genuine alpha which her bf/partner may not be.

  73. Nice post jacklabear. There are clearly biological and genetic reasons for many of our behaviors, jealousy included. Coveting what others have contributes to the competition for resources and reproduction, makes the species stronger, etc.

    Humanity has only lived in this charmed highly advanced prosperous technical civilization for maybe a century out of the 200,000 years our species has existed. Our biology has not fully evolved to this style of sedate living, we still have genetic traits that are more useful to a nomadic hunter and gatherer.

    The fact our society has made illogical and irrational wholesale changes in gender dynamics, tossing our traditional gender roles to cater to the feminine imperative is going to cause chaos.

    Footballs are going to be snatched and taken from women by male fans, heh heh.

    [I had no pity for that woman, a Bengals fan should know better going into another team’s stadium, but that Saints fan held his frame against her pitiful pleading. Kudos to him. Then again, I like the Steelers, so I maybe have a bias against a Bengals fan. ]

    Rollo has good wisdom here at the Rationale Male how to cope and understand gender dynamics.

  74. +1 to that.

    Beta men crave. We’re the ones that know what “craving” is.

    As far as “boundaries” go? That’s the ticket. When you realize how much fucking bullshit you have put up with as a properly-conditioned mangina, and start to reclaim your balls, you will realize that no one has the right to use and abuse you.

    The take home message I’m getting from this post is respect yourself: the boundaries you establish — by demonstration, not explanation — will be a result of your level of self-respect and self-prioritization.

    This goes back to the “show” instead of “tell,” and “just getting it.” Betas negotiate for desire and try to secure that desire as permanently as possible through further negotiation.

    Logic and reason don’t speak. Actions do. Actions are a result of the logic and reason your mind has already settled on, anyway. I think prioritizing yourself is both logical and reasonable. That will inevitably manifest in your actions.

    If you don’t respect and prioritize yourself and supplicate to other people, not even just women, it’ll show in your actions. And those actions generally being oral ‘agreements’ with no actual behaviors to back them up.

    “Demonstrate” higher value. “Just get it.” Internalization is the key here. We have to change as men to get the behaviors we want out of women, and/or ensure we don’t get trapped by women that don’t meet our standards.

    People have said this is a form of subjecting ourselves to women, pandering to them, etc.

    Which would be true if it weren’t for the fact that changing ourselves as men *WHILE PRIORITIZING THE MALE SEXUAL IMPERATIVE*….changes everything.

    Changing yourself to accommodate the FEMALE SEXUAL IMPERATIVE is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place, and is something most or all of us here are, or have been, supremely adept at.

    I am getting more and more pissed off the more I see women complaining on Facebook while thinking of the years I’ve spent as an incel. As if they know fuck all about deprivation or having it rough with “love” —

    — so I’m just re-channeling that anger into establishing my boundaries. Which is all about me: what am I willing to tolerate and not tolerate? What do I really want to experience?

    And all that matters is acting on that, not telling people that’s what I’m doing.

    Even though I haven’t struck anything since that last hookup months ago, I’m still talking to more girls. Some are showing no interest, others are showing a lot more.

    Even that alone is making me feel better. I’m finding that even without any sex at all, just seeing that different girls are more receptive to me, are more responsive, are more pleasant to talk to…it makes everything so much clearer and better.

    Options? Not having sex yet but I think it’s options just the same. And guys like me who haven’t gotten laid need to just start casually talking to girls, and realize that even if you completely fuck up and say something stupid, it doesn’t matter, because there are always more of them. They’re a dime a dozen. It’s helped me tremendously to get on Tinder and get unmatched so much, sometimes immediately, other times after sending some great messages and then something way too serious and awkward and losing the girl. It’s like a fish getting off the line. It happens. Nothing personal.

    One girl at a party I was at, I was drunk and we were playing a game and I casually put my arm around her. She recoiled. There was another girl on my other side that I also put my arm around. She let me do it and then was putting her hand on my knee and leaning into me and all that.

    To get the confidence to do that when I’m not drunk would be good. The touching nonchalantly thing definitely works — but not all the time. I backed off the other girl a bit and focused more on the one that was giving me attention.

    It makes the stuck up, remote ones look pretty much completely worthless. It’s like the rejection doesn’t even register when I experience firsthand the fact that there are “other fish in the sea.”

    And even not thinking of them as stuck up. Just forgetting about them and moving on after quickly deciding that it would be a bad investment.

    Boundaries: if your attitude is that you don’t deserve to be cheated on, that you won’t tolerate it, that you respect yourself too much to put up with x, y, z behavior — your actions will automatically reflect that belief.

    Does it guarantee it won’t happen? No. But that’s not the point. The point is that all you can do is prioritize yourself and concern yourself only with being exactly the person you want to be.

    Changing our internal belief system is where the party’s at. I believe we “just get it” by re-programming our subconscious mind. Since the subconscious does all the “just getting it” for us, and our conscious mind naturally follows.

    We have actually been SUCCESSFUL as being beta men. SUCCESSFULLY conditioned to function exactly as the FI has wanted us to. We have succeeded. We have to realize that unlearning this ‘skill’ and learning a new one, i.e., OUR sexual imperative, is no different.

    This blog and putting effort into self-improvement gives us the tools to start doing that. To successfully create a state of mind that we really want to be in, to desire a life we really want — instead of a state of mind and desires that were more or less implanted in us to prioritize women’s wants and needs while completely neglecting our own.

  75. problem with sky diving is for some reason it doesn’t transfer to you being dangerous. its a rather non physically demanding event… most of the time

  76. “There was a comment about how women who self guard tend to be less sexual by nature, so there is a trade off in choosing that kind of woman”

    My wife comes in the study where I’m watching TV and reading this on the computer. She gives me a kiss, tells me she loves me, and then starts watching a bit of the TV and reads the computer screen. She is mate guarding. She reads the quoted line and asks what is “self guard”. Using google translate new hamster setting, I tell her that some women who have a boy friend or husband still flirt with other guys, and their boy friend and husband sometimes try to guard against that, while other women do not flirt with other men. Since she never flirts, she says “I don’t think I’m less sexual, I’m mean I’m not a nymphomaniac but”

    So there you go.

    Her oldest brother is an alpha, in everything. His wife cheats. He likely cheats but nobody knows for sure. They party a lot. Their marriage seems to work for them.

  77. So interesting Rollo! I kind of agree with jf12 on how it can be better to learn from the mistakes of others… seeing a train-wreck happen in front of you has a way of really getting the message home.

    It’s so weird, we’re in our 7th year of marriage and going strong, but we’ve seen so many friends divorce already – and particularly in their 7th year. A friend (she looks freaking gorgeous – she is actually a pageant winner in our city) just announced her and her husband’s divorce. They are in their 7th year, have THREE kids, her husband works with mine – they are both good-looking alpha men…. I seriously have NO idea what happened (except for noticing the relationship has been deteriorating), I don’t know what happened behind closed doors in their relationship, though.

    But that kind of thing (seeing and reading friends’ divorce announcements) is just so scary to me – the fear of my marriage going south.

  78. Obviously when you guys are talking about “women not craving” a beta you mean a beta with no game. Women are absolutely capable of craving any man who has an understanding of game and how a woman perceives “chemistry”. The difference is that non alpha game is purely about a “love” bond in a woman’s mind not the animal sex bond.

    Women can crave a beta to make love to but not fuck. There might be some crossover on occasion but generally that’s how it works. For an alpha it can be either or both.

  79. @TM and Rollo- You guys are missing the point- it’s not whether she craves beta or not (funny that you guys are hung up on that) it’s the fact that women cheat and being alpha is no insurance on female desire to cheat. Do you really care why some other cock is pounding your womans pussy?
    It needs to be pointed out. There is a false sense of security here concerning alphas as some sort of panacea, and I can just imagine some guy reading all this and thinking – well I got my bitch in check, I’m all alpha- and next thing you know she’s shacking up with some beta because she decided she wanted security, or whatever. Telling yourself “well, she didn’t crave him like she did me” is little comfort if you’ve invested in her at all.
    The only security is no commitment. Thats it.

  80. @ bango

    “For an alpha it can be either or both.” Salient and true dat.

    A great point that cant be reiterated enough is that the ‘sphere is BetaBuilt (and in some rare cases by benevolent Alphas).

    That origin point is a key concept to embrace.

  81. @Hobbes “The only security is no commitment. Thats it.”

    Isn’t that similar to saying that the only way to insure your bank account against loss is to have no funds in it to begin with?

  82. @sfcton, re: dangerous vs violent

    As we’ve discussed there are definitely extremely dangerous things, like skydiving or manufacturing explosives, that don’t involve much violence (if any). I think maybe it is the lack of violence that makes women uninterested.

    So are there extremely violent things, that make women interested, that aren’t dangerous? I think so. The example that sticks in my mind is the buck gorilla pounding his chest and roaring.

  83. @gwadt, re: 7th yr.

    My first marriage took a turn for the worse in the 7th year, but my second marriage got better, for a few years, in the 7th year.

    I’m pretty sure the old “seven year itch” canard has been superseded by a 5 yr itch for young couples. Moreover, the objective quality (=quantity) of a long term sexual relationship goes extremely downhill after the honeymoon period, which for hetero couples is typically a couple of years max, 99.9% due to the woman. If the 7 yr itch period ever had any validity it was only formalizing the end of an already long-dead relationship.

  84. There was a comment about how women who self guard tend to be less sexual by nature, so there is a trade off in choosing that kind of woman

    Not in my experience.

  85. @Hobbes:

    Lol. I was simply pointing out that women do crave alphas but not betas. I don’t see how someone is “hung up on that” by making that simple observation. Also, women aren’t driven by a desire to cheat just for the sake of it, they only do so when their hypergamy assesses that the man she’s with is of lower value. Again, this is in relation to her OR when she meets a men who’s value is higher that your’s and hers. Make no mistake about it, women do compare men especially when she’s in a relationship. Girls have a habit of doing this a lot. Granted there are many other reasons for her to cheat, but those are usually among the first ones to surface.

    But, I’ll still drive my point further now since I probably wasn’t clear enough in the beginning on desire or “craving”. Desire matters a lot in the initial stages of trying to bang a chick because not only will the bang in manifesting itself easily, but she will also be driven by desire to do her part in satisfying you. This is something that you cannot control directly; like arousal, it comes organically from her. Trying to overtly control or force her desire is where the whole “negotiating” part comes from. Looking back at my experiences, it is the desire itself that not only shows me the potential of how far I could take it(as far as relationships are concerned) but also, in just how much I could get away with in general. Needless to say, it staves off cheating as much as possible.

    Also, it isn’t comfort to tell yourself, “well, she didn’t crave him like she did me”. It’s an indicator of something more primal going on. Namely, that you’re placating her id/limbic brain while the going is good. Pacifying her limbic brain is the key to a happy relationship. This is because her limbic brain is primarily responsible for acknowledging your inherent value in relation to hers.

    I mentioned in my last comment that no one is safe by stating that even I got cheated on, so I know no guaranteed security exists. But even though no guarantee exists, that still leaves room for ways in minimizing the risk which is what Rollo (at least I think so) and I are getting at by stating that a man should always look for a girl who desires him. I mean, sure genuine alphas get that desire easily, but that doesn’t mean a man can’t be an alpha in relation to her (the whole 2+ market rule).

    Looking at the big picture, the whole fuck buddy cycle starts (and one could say revolves) around the whole desire dynamic. That is something to be pointed out. It may seem like I’m talking about a completely different topic here, but this has ties to mate guarding, boundaries, or what ever else you want to call it. It IS that important.

  86. One of my favorite movies has a great line of wisdom applicable to the topic of fear of loss.

    “Don’t let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner.”

    The ‘heat’ can be a whole host of FOO issues, hormones, old boyfriend issues, or neurosis that could change a woman’s attachment to you at any time. You need to be willing to lose any relationship, if that relationship becomes toxic and endangers your well-being.

    Rollo is relaying wisdom, so use it to better your own situation. I appreciate his articles that have helped me understand the motives of my own wife and daughter. I am married today. I cannot absolutely guarantee I will be married tomorrow, because I am only in control of myself.

    Rollo isn’t promising you are getting ‘Once Upon A Time’ Disney Princess marriage, he is just giving you knowledge to use so you can try to avoid being the next ‘American Horror Story”.

Speak your mind

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s