Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

I revisited the topic of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) last Saturday on Rule Zero. I don’t like rehashing old debates I’ve learned will ultimately go nowhere. You simply wont reach most people who don’t want to be reached. Once they’ve had some experiential lessons in life, reinforced it with the tribalistic need to affirm the beliefs derived from that experience and then invest their egos in them it becomes kind of pointless. I’m not saying just give up on people, far from it, but do understand what you’re up against. This is why I say unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work, and a lot like triage. Know what’s worth expending energy for.

Most men, and nearly all women, don’t form a belief set based on multiple, independently funded, peer reviewed studies or statistical analyses. We go with experience first and then modify it from there.

I did a bit of preparation for this talk. My schedule last Saturday only permitted me an hour so I wanted to be succinct and throw out at least something new to the conversation. There’s a lot of tribalism in the Manosphere today and it’s no surprise that MGTOW as a tribe in growing – but likely not for the reasons most MGTOW would be willing to admit. MGTOW is becoming atomized and commercialized in the same manner as I predicted the Red Pill would (and has) last year.

What that means is MGTOW is rapidly becoming the same commercial vehicle for grifters that the Red Pill was just a year and a half ago. Life Coaches, Relationship Experts, Fitness Gurus, even Christian men’s ministry pastors are all looking online to find out ‘where have all the men gone?’ When men were found in the Red Pill this is where the grifters would coalesce. Thus, you had every ‘brand-of-me’ self-improvement hack calling himself “red pill”. A few of them still do. A few of them read verbatim from my book(s) and plagiarize it as their own. But more now I see these same grifters referring to themselves as MGTOW without realizing (or even caring) what it really means to men.

MGTOW is the new ‘brand’ that lifestyle ‘coaches’ are adding to their twitter profiles and YouTube channel About pages. They see the potential for growth by association. Even if they get owned in their comments and feeds, adding the tag MGTOW will draw clicks. A few of these ‘coaches’ had a familiarity with the tribe and decided to finally commit in the hopes that it would boost views, others are former ‘power-of-positivity‘ life-coaches who slide into MGTOW because the definition of what makes a man “go his own way” is so loose now that it can align with virtually anything the guy had written about before his new affiliation.

It’s a real short step from “Make yourself your Mental Point of Origin” to “Make yourself #1 in your life” and then to “Go your own way.” I’ve had at least four “dating experts” (one female) claim Mental Point of Origin was their own idea in their subscriber emails as recently as August. Grifters used the Red Pill and are now using MGTOW to legitimize their brands today. In 2015 the MRAs decided to appropriate the Red Pill as their own brand to name a feminist’s “journey of self-discovery” movie The Red Pill. This appropriation is continuing with MGTOW now.

As I said on the Red Man Group back in May, the Red Pill is going to have a real PR problem in the coming year. Everything I predicted in my State of the Manosphere address a year ago has come to pass and I predict it will only intensify in the 2020 election cycle. The Gender War needs a convenient, easy-to-hate villain to point to in order to reinforce the Future is Female narrative.

Very soon MGTOW will have the same PR problem. And once the next Eliot Rodger or Alex Minasian incident occurs you’ll see these grifters scatter from MGTOW like roaches when the lights come on. When there are dead women on the sidewalk somewhere, and the MSM is using terms like ‘MGTOW’, ‘Incel’ and ‘radicalization’ that is when all the ‘tribes’ of the Manosphere will throw each other under the bus. That’s when you’ll know who was ‘playing MGTOW’ for likes.

Adaptation

One thing this re-debate of MGTOW has made me reconsider is whether men are adapting to the new realities of the sexual marketplace or just looking to make their necessities a virtue. At its simplest MGTOW is men refusing to make women the measure of their lives, and then molding their lives to their own plan. This pairs nicely with virtually every pet ideology and ‘positivity’ grift in the ‘sphere today. Even Tradcons will agree with MGTOW if it means “Be the best man you can be“. It agrees with Mental Point of Origin. It agrees with Roissy – “You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.” It agrees with “Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

If that was all there was to MGTOW it would simply be Red Pill. What “MGTOW” life-coach grifters don’t realize is that MGOTW is a derivative of the Red Pill. I’ve always argued that once a guy becomes Red Pill aware he cannot help but live in some different fashion. Even the guys who go into complete denial can’t unsee the truths of intersexual dynamics. It’s what you actually do with that new awareness that sets apart Red Pill praxeology from MGTOW in practice. There’s more to MGTOW than just refusing to make women the measure of a man’s life – it’s also deciding what actually is deference to women. And that’s where it becomes highly subjective.

In my last post I outlined how women were upset there weren’t enough ‘eligible‘ men to marry in the current (westernized) sexual marketplace (SMP) today. Of course the two most common responses were either:

  • Women are the victims of the SMP they created. Women’s solipsistic, socially enabled entitlements to an ‘economically attractive’ man (a man who exceeds her own productivity by 58%) only proves the point that women’s social media bloated egos have made them unrealistic tyrants. Now their beliefs and actions have come home to roost.
  • This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?

For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. The Gender War of today exists because of a systematic segregation between men and women (don’t @me with the cultural marxism/’evil juice’ shit for the moment). Honestly, I’m sick of reading about how negative it is to merely point out the realities of this ‘gender cold war’ by Success Porn grifters, but is not MGTOW an adaptation to this segregation? Is not MGTOW an exacerbation of this segregation. When I read mantras like ‘Dogs, Dudes and Dolls’ it sounds an awful lot like ‘Cats, Girlfriends and Vibrators’.

Is MGTOW an adaptation to the conditions in a sexual marketplace that was (and still is) contrived by feminism/gynocentrism?

The following quote is from a long time commenter and friend Deti. This was from a larger discussion that began here if you want to get some context. Sorry guys, I just don’t have the space to repost the whole thread, but I don’t want this to get lost. Hopefully, it will inspire further discussion in this post’s comments:

I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.

About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Women responded to and lived within that milieu in a number of ways.

Using soft power, manipulation, deceit, subterfuge, behind the scenes machinations. Most women were more or less OK with marrying an OK guy, having OK sex, and living an OK life.

Of course, sometimes women cheated on the downlow. Sometimes women cuckolded husbands. I mean real actual traditional definition of cuckolding, which is a married woman getting pregnant by an Alpha and passing the child(ren) off as the Beta Husband’s. There’s no way to know how often that happened, but it wasn’t really rare – Maybe anywhere from 5 to 20% of children then weren’t fathered by their bio-moms’ husbands. In rare cases, not marrying and becoming spinsters, living as bohemians or as “favorite cousins” or “favorite aunts” with male relatives, working as teachers or seamstresses or some other job, and being live in nanny/maid. In rare cases, divorcing and living off family money or a husband’s alimony money. Living as widows and not remarrying.

The point is that women learned how to adapt. There are a lot of reasons for that, but they did adapt.

The main responses men have used today to adapt to changing circumstances have been:

  1. Game/PUA/Seduction – Use the changes to men’s advantage and go for easy sex and the bachelor lifestyle.
  2. MRA – Fighting the changes to advocate for either equalizing the laws or rolling them back to a return to Marriage 1.0 and pre-sexual revolution status.
  3. MGTOW – Check out of the new system, refuse to support or participate in it, and eschew relationships with women to varying degrees.

About, oh, 20 years in, I think we can safely say that option 2) is dead in the water and has been for some time. About the only real reforms here are that divorce and family laws are slowly, very, very slowly, moving toward 50/50 residential custody and away from alimony (except in the case of longer term marriages with breadwinner spouse/dependent nonemployed wife). Unless you have been married more than 20 years and support a housewife, you probably will not be paying alimony except for temporarily. Thats about the entire sum and substance of how “equal” it’s going to get between men and women.

That leaves 1) Game; and (3) MGTOW.

It’s hard to tell what will come out of this. I think we can say:

• Marriage 1.0 is dead and we are never going back to it for at least 2 more generations. If you think you’re going to have a “traditional marriage” where you don’t have to do much to maintain it or you can let up on your attractiveness levels, think again. Because that is not going to happen. If you’re going to marry a woman, you need to improve your attractiveness, marry a woman who is not financially dependent on you, and cultivate your own life separate and apart from her. You need a contingency plan in the event the marriage goes south. And with all that, you need to consider whether you want to risk bringing kids into the mix. You absolutely need a prenuptial agreement, even if it gets judicially torn up or modified later.

The bottom line is, people are still marrying, it’s just that it’s all being pushed out later and later, and people are staying single longer and spending less time married. Many women are meeting the men they eventually marry in their early to mid 20s, and then marrying in their late 20s and early 30s. That’s a paradigm that’s increasing in frequency; this idea of long term dating and engagements lasting 2 to 5 years while both the man and woman establish their careers.

If you want long term relationships you should consider marriage alternatives like living together, or being exclusive while living apart. You absolutely must avoid at all costs these polyamory/polygyny situations, and open marriages. You absolutely must avoid women who want to continue AF’ing it even after they marry. That must be an absolute no go, not an option, ever.

• Men have to improve and increase their sexual attractiveness to create, maintain, and sustain relationships with women. You can’t let up here. That’s IF you want relationships with women.

• More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.

For most men, avoiding women entirely, except for paying hookers, is a no go. The thirst is that strong. The male sex drive is that potent. Most men want to have some contact with women, even if it’s just random hookups now and again. And the only way to do that is to make yourself as sexually attractive as possible. That just is so. Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women. So if you want sex partners, you have to make yourself sexually attractive. And you have to know male and female sexual nature, so that you know what you’re getting into, you know what you’re seeing, you know what women are doing, and you know what women really mean when they talk.

For men, improving one’s own attractiveness increases one’s power in the market. It increases his ability to control some of the selection process. It gives him an abundance mentality. It gives him the power to walk away from situations that disadvantage him. It gives him the ability to tell women “no” and to reject women who cannot or will not give him what he wants and needs.

On the other hand, going your own way can also increase your power in the market. It maximizes your control over your own life. It sharply reduces your responsibilities to others, and increases your opportunities. It frees up your resources to expend the way you want. Sharp reductions in responsibility means a sharp reduction in the needed resources for day to day living, meaning you can work less and increase your leisure time.

I think that more and more men will go pure MGTOW, which is essentially “make the best of a tough situation, be single, and don’t have a family. At least that’s better than getting divorce raped and it’s less work than going to the gym, getting in shape, and eating clean. This way I can eat what I want and work 30 hours a week, and live by myself in my apartment”. It’s kind of similar to women 100 years ago, where the path of least resistance was for Bertha BigGirl, Martha Dumptruck, and Plain Jane to “find a decent, OK man to support me, and probably have at least 3 of his kids. At least it’s better than living with Mom until she dies, and then having to live with my brother and his wife, and taking care of their kids.” And similar to the spinster, the MGTOW will be low status, or at least perceived as low status. But for the spinster and the MGTOW, their lifestyles will be at least better than whatever else they could have gotten.

Guys, Nova is absolutely correct in that men by and large are not adapting.

I think that what’s going on is that many men are saying “want to stay the same, don’t want to do a lot of work, but I still want women to be attracted to me and to be able to date a lot and eventually get married and have a family like (a) mom and dad had when I was growing up; or (b) like I didn’t get to have growing up.” Well, you can’t have that, at least not without working for it. If you want something you’re going to have to work for it. If you want women and sex, you’re going to have to make yourself attractive to women. And the way you’re going to do that, the only way to do that, is to stand out. And the way you stand out is by improving every area of your life – your job, your body, your finances, your lifestyle, your hobbies, your social acumen, and everything else that involves you going through your life.

The funny thing is that when a man stops caring so much about it, forgets about women, and sets about improving his life, he starts attracting women.

That’s the current state of things, I think.

I don’t disagree that we’re presently at a turning point in intersexual relations. After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable. Now that we’re 50 odd years past that point we’re figuring out how reproduction, love, marriage, and something as simple as boy-meets-girl is going to look for future generations. The internet and a social media acculturation on a global scale has seen to it that it will likely never look like it did under the old social contract. There’s a theory that post-agrarian societies experienced a similar shift in intersexual dynamics in our ancestral past. Socially enforced monogamy was the obvious intersexual shift.

Right now we’re seeing a similar shift in intersexual relations. Is it simply better for men and women to live segregated lives? I don’t believe so, but it seems like a larger cultural narrative believes it’s time for both men and women to go their own ways. Until one side concedes, fuck any notion of evolved complementarity is the narrative I guess.

I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting. They always have. It’s that the adaptation is counter to what we might hope is the natural order between men and women.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

560 comments on “Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

  1. “Ask people over 50 if they have smartphones -some don’t – . . .”

    I went out on a call last week to configure a new phone for an over 50. It was a landline. Except for a few cheap, crappy POTS sets marketed to seniors and outbackers all new phones are smartphones – some just hide it better than others. My $25 flip phone can launch a browser and connect to the Internet.

    All connections are smart, including POTS, and POTS is being forcibly decommissioned everywhere it can be.

    Of course the usefulness of POTS has largely been destroyed by smart telemarketing anyway.

  2. kfg
    Of course the usefulness of POTS has largely been destroyed by smart telemarketing anyway.

    A POTS landline with an answering machine makes a pretty good spamtrap.

  3. @seestories

    “Author here. Currently writing a story that has a matriarchy as the political structure. I’m looking to discuss with this community ideas and possible problems with my premise. Anyone interested”

    matriarchy is sometimes defined as “form of social organization in which the mother or oldest female is the head of the family …”

    However in current western culture the mother or oldest female does not have the most power. That goes to females that have high SMV. Thus Kim Kardashian does not want to dress modestly for her husband, since it decreases her power.

  4. If love were real, there wouldn’t have been billions of abortions. Love, quite frankly, is a load of horse schitt. It’s fostered in culture so that people spend max money. It’s fostered in culture so that people get married, because even though marriage is horrific for men, marriage works best for women and the state. It’s fostered in culture so that a regular crop of new wage slaves are born, because procreation. It’s fostered so the fruits of men’s excess labor and production are either voluntarily transferred to women via women’s sucker husband or forcefully transferred to women via women’s state husband. The evidence is all about you. To see this, one need only truly open their eyes. So many things in life, when you get right down to it, are utter and complete fantastical horse schitt. It takes are really strong person to accept this reality. Most cannot, because most are weak.

  5. “So many things in life, when you get right down to it, are utter and complete fantastical horse schitt.”

    Yes they are.

    “It takes are really strong person to accept this reality.”

    Yes it does.

    “Most cannot, because most are weak.”

    Granted. So what? What do you do about that?

    “Love, quite frankly, is a load of horse schitt.”

    Depends. It can be lovely or shitty depending on how you wield the tool. Or the desire or the intention. It can be not for nothing.

  6. I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.

    LMFAO women “adapted”? For what? Legal theft? It’s like saying “bankers ‘adapted’ within this particular millieu(fractional banking and printing money out of thin air), which makes it possible to theft from people free”. Right? Bankers “noted the (legal) changes” and “have adapted to them”, and by the result they can and do rob the whole world ‘legally’. It’s just ‘adapting within the new millieu’, right? lol
    This is a textbook example of another female hamstering and justification. It’s MEN who are adapting, by TRP or MGTOW or whatever, but not females, who simply chasing shiny things from time to time without any consideration about future.

    About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women.

    LMAO is this a quote from some gender studies degree class? I never thought I’ll see the female oppression myth in this blog(I know it’s not the publisher himself but some random commentator, but anyway). Marriage has never been prepared to advantage men. It ALWAYS has been prepared to advantage WOMEN, not men. 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 1000 years ago, it ALWAYS advantaged women. Let’s see it.
    1) Without men’s providing, women just can’t survive themselves. This is true even NOWADAYS, see the net fiscal impact(https://atavisionary.com/how-expensive-are-women/). Modern women are as ‘economically independent’ as the tyranical government.
    2) So, the old days’ marriage, say hundreds years ago, is about men protects women so she can survive, for life, and get like 10 years of sex in exchange. Saying “marriage, in 100 years ago, advantaged men and disadvantaged women”, is like saying “taxation advantage taxpayers and disadvantage the government.” It’s typical female hamstering at best and the most absurd and harmful false narrative at worst.

  7. 200 years ago men owned their children, which meant they could form estates and even dynasties, working for resources to be handed down the generations. That’s what they got. That’s what women had to offer in exchange for the protection and security provided by men and the risk of childbirth was considerably higher than it is now.

    The deal might still have favored women in many ways, but it wasn’t too terrible for men.

    But then they took the children away.

  8. If that is the case then why don’t YOU the so called “GODFATHER OF THE MANOSPHERE” invite TFM on your THE RED MAN GROUP again ? Last time i remember it was 6 v/s 1 and even then he ripped your a new one, even YOU were looking like a simp in front of him, especially DONOVAN SHARPE.

    Second of all, are not men demonized daily ??? Just for being men ?? And if that is the case , then why would you care about MGTOW philosophy, its doesn’t tell to kill anybody or do harm to other people, Yes Incel philosophy makes them miserable, BUT not MGTOW philosophy. So there is the Difference.

    MGTOW is gaining traction anyways & its not a movement, its a philosophy, so it will not have a PR problem,the reason being it focuses on INDIVIDUALISM & quotes from Buddha & MIYAMOTO MUSASHI ( the greatest samurai warrior of all times).

    So please if you really wanna have a discussion over MGTOW bring someone like TURD FLINGING MONKEY on your “THE RED MAN GROUP” aka PUA group.

    Otherwise don’t try to virtue-signal on behalf of women.

  9. If you want woman and sex you can hire a prostitute, because beside her vagina is there is no reason to have a woman around, you can rent a decent one for €100- per hour and not be in any financial danger and the best thing is after the deed the bitch leaves…

  10. Monogamy is an artificial construct. Back in the early days of humankind then we where living in tribes during the hunter-garter era all the men was having intercourse with all the woman. A varity of genetic material and DNA was very valuable so all the men breed with all the women.

    If we think of a hunter tribe consisting of 4 males and 4 females. If only one man (Alpha) breed with the four women it would lead to incest and no beneficial blood mixing later then the children did grow up. So it is my belief that all four men had children with all the four woman as that would be most beneficial for the tribe/group long term survivial. Let’s say each woman gave birth to 2 children who survived, it would grow the tribe with 8 persons.

    That is the origin where we as humans come from. It was never one Alpha owning a harem of women, and it was never a one-to-one stable pairing of couples.

    1. You have to base current behaviours on hunter gatherers. Agriculture is when it all become fucked up. Finance, commerce and all that bullshit. 14,000 years? A fraction of human evolution.

      So, you have to use the pre-agriculture years as a metric for human sexual behaviour.

  11. well then if you are UNCEREMONIOUSLY removed from your creation, then invite hm for a one on one interview on your own youtube channel,he has been de-platformed & demonetized for uttering the word “MGTOW” anyways from youtube, He is right now on Bitchute,so please call him and take his answer or any other guy like Hammerhand, Undead Chronic, etc. If you are REALLY concerned about MGTOW & their philosophy.

  12. 2011Met my 75 yr old widow lady. In 10 days who lost her husband 5 yrs ago I lost my wife 6 mo ago, we made love 8 days later, she askrd me to go to bed w her, we loved 3 times then I left. Movrd in w her made love nighty until my 85 th birthday. Coild not erection hopimg ..DX AMP MALE PERF FORM WORK 4 ME TONIGHT ..WILL TAKE 2 POLLS NOE AT 7:00pm . will DX AMP HELP ME TONIGHT???

  13. The phenomena of MGTOW is a natural conclusion to the horrible state of sexual relations fostered by the powers that be. It’s not that men are “adapting, it’s that they are NOT ALLOWED TO ADAPT. A sexually undesirable man, (read:below the top 5%) you are actively punished for trying anything close to approaching a woman, you’ll be escorted out of clubs, beaten, arrested, fined, jailed, and then some especially if you’re awkward, or not very proficient in game. So for these men, there’s nothing else left in this world for them, probably why suicide rates for men are so god damned high. What do you do when you can’t have a family, your place in life has been usurped by the strong independent woman, and the few who had all the best get even more while you are left with nothing?

    In fact I’d say the current state of affairs is a powder keg waiting to erupt and the only thing holding it in check is our current bread and circus.

  14. In regards to Deti “Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women.” … I am not sure if this is really true, perhaps they are in denial when this happens. Or perhaps it is not that there isn’t a problem, but merely that they crave the drama involved.

    Men do have, however, a large pool of attractive females who are willing to share themselves with scores of men in as much as they make a lot of money from the group of males that they satisfy. This pool includes escorts, amp masseuses, erotic dancers and others. For a financially responsible male that doesn’t waste money in traditional female pursuit expenses (expensive house, expensive car, expensive clothes….and of course the money spent dating and gifting these women they seek to have sex with “for free”), they will be better off financially if they quench their sexual “thirst” buying it a la cart at a reasonable frequency.

    1. @StormG. You are missing the point. Escorts, strippers etc have no value as women. These kind of women have a high body count, poor sense of self worth, more than likely some form of BPD and find it difficult to pair bond. They usually end up with a Sugar Daddy because they equate love to financial resource. Or the alternative….. 12 cats.

      So, a man of value has no need for these kind of women. A man does not earn money, buy nice cars and a nice house so he can bang hot women. If he does he has no understanding of the Red pill.

      Sugar Babies are an almost normalised part of society. Women who choose that ‘vocation’ are revered as empowered and strong women. Overt hypergamy. Women having a relationship on their terms. The man has no power as a man. Escorts used to say to me ‘It’s cheaper seeing me than taking a date out to a restaurant’. When I became red pill aware I realised that was not true because I don’t take dates out to a restaurant and dates still have genuine desire for me without crossing her palm with silver.

  15. The only thing a man should do to get pussy is remove his pants. Underwear optional.

    It is failure of the most massive to ” buy stuff ” to attract women in hopes that your stuff will goad them to allow you access to naughty bits. Tsk tsk tsk.

    I always believed that earning lots of money makes a blue minded man extremely vulnerable to a lot of unsavory chicks, but the man can’t see it because he’s pussyblind . Escorts and pros, better to jerk off and make a.bank deposit. The reduction of sex to it’s absolute baseline is angry blue pilled fuckery and avoidance.

    Not a good look long term.

    1. @Blax. ‘The reduction of sex to it’s absolute baseline is angry blue pilled fuckery and avoidance’

      I could not of said it better myself. Having been a man who has been there, done that it is totally accurate.

      It was a great training ground for understanding hypergamy in its rawest form.

      I mixed with ‘Punter/John’ communities. They are total angry blue pill guys who hate women and don’t understand themselves as men and definately don’t understand women. They tried to dox me. I would have lost my job and been labeled as a ‘deviant’. I was perma banned from the community for being a troll and ‘prossi lover’. I was heart broken 🙂 Because of that I lurked in TRM for a long while and it took me a while to trust this community.

      I’m writing a book on my experiences. I am an authority on the subject. To me it’s human behaviour. It’s hard to stay objective and not be emotional. There was many bad experiences. It was a 2 year long journey and it was not all bad. I’d been red pill aware for about 15 years (I had not heard of the Red Pill) but that period was the tipping point. I downloaded a copy of TRM to my kindle (bought from Amazon, Rollo). I read it and thought ‘so I am not insane’.

      Apologies Blax for digressing but when guys think paying for Escorts is an easy way to bang women they are sorely mistaken. It does trigger me. It is the MGTOW way not the Red Pill way.

  16. In reply to Blaximus and Wildside. Apologies for not thinking long term…or triggering. Perhaps I do not see the finer points of differentiating MGTOW and red pill. I consider myself Mgtow, and I thought that was a red pill derivative, so perhaps I am a little out of my element in this forum. As you know, fitting in somewhere can be a challenge.
    In terms of classifying the “fuckery” of getting involved with “pros” I would challenge that it is, in fact, black pilled fuckery. No blue pill, angry or otherwise, would avail himself of professional providers. (or at least would not own up to it).
    It may come as no surprise (Wildside) that I have no idea what “value” you seek to find in women. Having one long term relationship (with a son to show for it, at least) down the porcelain drain, I can only see one thing of value in women, pro and amateur, and they all have one.

  17. The reoccurring theme I’ve seen here over the years is the
    ” Women aren’t worth _____”, because my relationship ( or others I’ve known ) relationship failed.

    Do you really understand why the failure took place?

    Not to sound in any way disrespectful ( see Rollo’s new post ), but imo it’s a gigantic cop-out to swear off women, thinking they hold no ” value ” at all by virtue of possessing a vagina. Whenever any man says ” they are only useful for one thing “, it seems that they never realize that they are giving insight to a mindset that was probably at least partly responsible for that relationship doom.

    The thought ” only good for one thing ” has never crossed my mind at any point, regardless of whether a particular relationship went down in flames or not. I mean, I’ve never been able to reliably hit a 100 mph fastball, and that says nothing at all about baseball….

    As far as a man using ” pros “, yes, it is a failure. That’s not a judgement, as prostitution has been around as long as dicks have. I’ve stated here that if circumstances came about in the correctly horrifying order, and I tired of jerking off, I too could find myself procuring the services of a whore, but it would be a failure in my life, and I would resist trying to justify it. Regardless of who is paying chicks for access to vagina, it’s a fail. Men have failures and shortcomings in life, it’s a part of the whole ” life ” thing.

    …. but I’m certain that a desperate Blaximus could find a fairly steady stream of ” 4-5’s ” to relieve testicular pressure before handing over cash for services. I just can’t envision paying any woman for sex, because that ” hawt hb9 ” is still just a girl at the end of the day, and even if you’re old(er) or whatever, if you retain higher level Game and stick to it, you can bang the hotties and keep your wallet in your pocket.

    Game saves lives and money.

    Women are not without ” value “. Think of yourself as a big mirror when dealing with a woman, as she will react and reflect what you’re displaying. Sure, some of them are pure assholes, just like some men, but it’s a man’s responsibility to ferret these things out and have strong hand/frame.Relationship detonation doesn’t say anything about anyone else except the parties involved.

  18. If this site had a better reply feature, most of you ‘Old Timers’ would be laughed out of your own court.

    Get with the times Grandpa, and bring on the AI-powered bread & circus

  19. It always grinds my gears when I read the way in other red pill circles see Mgtow, they think it’s all just low value males without the will to get in shape, the looks or the balls to talk to women.

    Maybe some people that identify as mgtow are like that, man that still need to developed some aspects of their lives and just use the label as shield.

    But generalizing the entire group like that is also wrong. Is it really that hard to you brothers, to make the cost/benefit analysis in 2020 about relationships? You can lose your company, half your shit, half your future income, your sanity and your freedom if you go into LTR with women.

    Internalizing alpha game is no shield either, the laws are the laws and they are designed to transfer resources from one gender to the other.

    MRAs are failing miserably and becoming a PUA is not for everyone, as Mgtow and specially monk is not.

    My point is, by using these derogatory descriptions about mgtow (or grouping mgtow with incels) you guys are doing the female imperative work of shaming man back into compliance.

  20. I’m getting the impression that women don’t know they’re a pain in the butt. Perhaps all this indoctrination women are receiving from schools and the media has convinced them that they’re somehow useful or regarded as equals to males. There’s a very good reason why companies are cajoled to, or offered incentives to, hire females: Because, unless the work involves exposure of their ‘attributes’ to men, or they’re modeling the latest fashions, women AREN’T wanted by companies. They’re too litigious, demanding of ‘special’ considerations and treatment, prone to getting pregnant, they become catty and serve as conduits for gossip and, if they’re at all good looking, they’ll orchestrate competition among male employees for their attention and affection. These harpies fail to understand that, even before MGTOW and Men’s Rights outfits came into being, men knew they were sticking their heads in a noose if they got married, especially to western women. (Some Far Eastern varieties are less combative, and they’ll grudgingly acknowledge their ‘roles’ in relationships. However, they’re just as sneaky, underhanded and manipulative as any western female. I ought to know, I’ve been married to one for almost 30 years.) Women feign ignorance of their “Sexual Market Value”, but THAT is their sole attribute, and many current social issues have eroded that value significantly.

  21. “I’m getting the impression that women don’t know they’re a pain in the butt.”

    Certainly. Women know, have known since the dawn of time, that men are a pain in the butt.

  22. Just off topic slightly. I work as an Application Engineer for a housing association. On Friday I received an email asking me to change the wording in an email template for a document management system.

    Change the wording ‘Bin Man’ (In USA that would be Garbage Man) to ‘Waste Operative’ because there are women who work in the role. OK, I understand the thinking behind it and anybody not Red Pill would think nothing of it. But I see it as changing English language to fit a feminine imperitive. As ridiculous as I think it is, I did what was requested because that’s my job. Nobody in work knows I am Red Pill. I sit there, do my job and I listen to the tedious conversations about blue pill marriages, babies and a 7 month pregnant woman, who constantly talks about herself, asking for her husbands credit card so she can buy clothes for her birthday.

  23. Back in my day when it was Sanitation Engineering all you needed was eyeglass frames held together with a bit of surgical tape and a pocket slide rule.

  24. Depressing set of posts for a soon to be divorced 50 year old. I wish Dalrock were still around to update his set of posts on never-married women percentage. I feel like thats taken a big jump in the two years since he looked at it last. I teach college and hardly any of the many women who come back for alumni reunions at 30 or 35 are married. His point, which I think is still relevant, is that men aren’t making the investments in their 20s that make them good marriage candidates in their 30s. That has definitely progressed, labor force participation for young men has been falling. MGTOW by default. So there is going to be a generation of women whose live look pretty sad to young women. Young women are probably too stupid to notice but you only need movement at the margin to change the market. If some of the marginally brighter young women start grabbing good prospects early, that would change the market even if its not a big percentage.

    Like Dalrock noted, when women and men paired up quickly in their early 20s, everybody got a good sense of their market value. Now, plain jane can just mosey along hoping her 6 6 6 will arrive any day.

    1. Love reading your stuff Rollo. Since I found The Red Pill I don’t give a fuck about chicks. I don’t mean that in a negative MGTOW way. I love hot, sexy women but I understand the ‘Hot and sexy’ bit. She is just a woman and has all the same hang ups as men. And has stinky shit.

      I always said on this forum, I’m single because I am not good enough for the woman I desire. True. I want a physicaly attractive woman who looks after herself and is mentally healthy. Not hard. That’s what she said. The mentally healthy is a bit tricky with women nowadays as ‘My body, my business’ is a cry. ‘Yeh I’m. Gonna fuck a boat load of men and maybe get some wonga for my trouble’. She loves sex and money. Until she hits 30 and realises nobody loves her unless they pay her.

      Yes! Go feminism.

        1. @Palma. As red pill guys we get thrown in the MGTOW and I ncell category. I am a man who fights for men’s rights. Not an MRA. Stick politics up your arse. Yeh we know women have had a rough ride but men get blamed for all the injustice in the world.

          And this is what gets my fucking goat ‘If men where allowed to show their emotions they would be happier’. Fuck right off. That is AMA rhetoric. It’s like a fucking 60s movie. ‘If we all think like women and smile the world will be a better place’.

          Hey I’m the guy who wants to hold hands and sit on a beach, watching the sun go down but women don’t work like that. Movies say a different story. The woman is the romantic one. Since when? A woman is romantic when she thinks she can’t have you.

        2. @Palma. This is the Red Pill for me. You Guys. Rollo. Its a man space. And what fucks me off is the objection of a man space. I have fought since I was 6 with a lesbian sister and staunch Irish grandmother to be a man. I wanted to be a Royal Marine Commando. My cousin is SBS. I never told you 🙂

          I couldn’t get into the milatry because I’m almost blind in one eye..and far too handsome 🙂 I know you Palma will do some Psych evaluation on me. And you will be right. Yeh, being a man is important to me.

          I fucking hated the Red Pill for a long time because I loved women (Blue Pill). I still love women but now I get them. Haha. Just listening to Mr Big ‘She took me down the road to ruin’. TUNE!.

          I have a couple of friends who are married. I chat to them on WhatsApp. I talk shit. Music, red pill. Science, bollox. They are in hell. As I said, I hated the Red Pill for an age, man you muddy the waters with misogynistic MGTOW dicks and its hard to like. However you focus on the likes of Rational Male. It all makes Se sense.

          Through my tough upbringing with my very awesome lesbian sister and staunch grandmother the Rational Male taught me to be a man. Even though Rollo plays Kramer guitars, which are shit 🙂

        3. What the new ‘woke’ society is doing is punishing men and women. Men and women want to attract their opposite. It’s fucking biology. The new narrative works like this ‘You should not find her sexually attractive because she is not just a woman!’. ‘You should not find him sexually attractive because he is a potential misogynist and rapist’. That is the social narrative.

          1. @wildside

            “I know you Palma will do some Psych evaluation on me.”

            Actually I won’t.

            What are you looking for from this place?

          2. @Palma. I believe I have found it. Rollo’s books opened my eyes. This forum is non judgemental. Unless a man is pretending to be something he is not The Rational Male will tell him so.

            Twatter, Facebook, Instagram, all social media is just a social loop with no truth. The majority is the truth. Did we not see that in 1937 nazi Germany? The majority is not the truth. Example COVID is a clear and present danger. The majority will not follow simple distancing rules. I leave the house to go the gym. I constantly wear a mask. My friend visits me on a Saturday. That’s it. I love travelling. I miss it. But people can’t do without their yearly holiday to Spain. Absolute arse holes.

            I fucking hate people. But I miss my friends and I am very pro social. As you can tell, I talk a lot of shit on here 🙂 The Red Pill strips that away. It is critical thinking. Critical thinking is what social media does not like. Emotional rhetoric. Bullshit is the order of the day. I have said before, I would gladly build a log cabin in the middle of nowhere and go live with my dog. But men see that as a cop out. Not really. It’s what I would like to do. Or just constantly travel the world. 2 goals that any man could do. Men should judge me by saying ‘Well why don’t you?’.

            So, Rollo should be proud of what he has accomplished. Yeh I was stoopid and wasted money on escorts and fell in love with an escort but reading The Rational Male opened my eyes and helped me get out of that shit. I am very pro man. But being pro man is a dirty word. I can’t say shit in work. And I don’t mean Red Pill stuff I mean saying things like ‘Man Cave’ gets corrected. What is it a ‘People Cave’? Fuck right off. And on your way out give your wife my number so she knows what it is like to be fucked.

            I like this forum. Palma, you challenge me and make me think. I like you man 🙂 That’s what men should do, challenge each other. I like all of you. You are good. Men

          3. @Palma. And it’s a safe place. A man’s place. Rollo’s little corner of the Internet is a good place.

            Society has put this invisible barrier up between the genders and added another 30 genders just to make sure we understand. So, men can’t look at women as sexual beings but sure as hell women can look at men as sexual objects. So I can’t say ‘She’s hot’ because men get shamed. Fuck that shit. Its not about debasing women, it’s about men’s evolutionary biology.

            This is why young men are fucked. They have no clue how to understand women. ‘Yeh so if I stand outside her window with a boom box playing Lionel Richie – Hello, she will think it is romantic’. No mate she will think you are a stalker and call the busies. ‘So, what do I do? Use pick up lines?’. See answer number 1.

            So, since the sexual revolution men have been royaly screwed. I want to be a masculine man. ‘No, man bad. Masculine is violent and misogynistic’. But I’m not. ‘Women don’ t like masculine men. Be caring and soft… Like a woman and then you may get a kiss’. OK, anything else? ‘Yeh, buy her flowers and let her fuck a boat load of other guys because how dare you try to control her’. OK. I am such a bastard.

            I’m not here to learn pick up. I think that is a shit game anyway. If you know yourself as a man you don’t need smoke and mirrors to meet women. You just…. Meet women. I’m just here to blow off steam 🙂 We all live in a gynocentric world where being a man is frowned upon. So this is the only place I can talk without being shamed or judged

  25. His point, which I think is still relevant, is that men aren’t making the investments in their 20s that make them good marriage candidates in their 30s

    Investment? For women? Does it count?

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