Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

I revisited the topic of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) last Saturday on Rule Zero. I don’t like rehashing old debates I’ve learned will ultimately go nowhere. You simply wont reach most people who don’t want to be reached. Once they’ve had some experiential lessons in life, reinforced it with the tribalistic need to affirm the beliefs derived from that experience and then invest their egos in them it becomes kind of pointless. I’m not saying just give up on people, far from it, but do understand what you’re up against. This is why I say unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work, and a lot like triage. Know what’s worth expending energy for.

Most men, and nearly all women, don’t form a belief set based on multiple, independently funded, peer reviewed studies or statistical analyses. We go with experience first and then modify it from there.

I did a bit of preparation for this talk. My schedule last Saturday only permitted me an hour so I wanted to be succinct and throw out at least something new to the conversation. There’s a lot of tribalism in the Manosphere today and it’s no surprise that MGTOW as a tribe in growing – but likely not for the reasons most MGTOW would be willing to admit. MGTOW is becoming atomized and commercialized in the same manner as I predicted the Red Pill would (and has) last year.

What that means is MGTOW is rapidly becoming the same commercial vehicle for grifters that the Red Pill was just a year and a half ago. Life Coaches, Relationship Experts, Fitness Gurus, even Christian men’s ministry pastors are all looking online to find out ‘where have all the men gone?’ When men were found in the Red Pill this is where the grifters would coalesce. Thus, you had every ‘brand-of-me’ self-improvement hack calling himself “red pill”. A few of them still do. A few of them read verbatim from my book(s) and plagiarize it as their own. But more now I see these same grifters referring to themselves as MGTOW without realizing (or even caring) what it really means to men.

MGTOW is the new ‘brand’ that lifestyle ‘coaches’ are adding to their twitter profiles and YouTube channel About pages. They see the potential for growth by association. Even if they get owned in their comments and feeds, adding the tag MGTOW will draw clicks. A few of these ‘coaches’ had a familiarity with the tribe and decided to finally commit in the hopes that it would boost views, others are former ‘power-of-positivity‘ life-coaches who slide into MGTOW because the definition of what makes a man “go his own way” is so loose now that it can align with virtually anything the guy had written about before his new affiliation.

It’s a real short step from “Make yourself your Mental Point of Origin” to “Make yourself #1 in your life” and then to “Go your own way.” I’ve had at least four “dating experts” (one female) claim Mental Point of Origin was their own idea in their subscriber emails as recently as August. Grifters used the Red Pill and are now using MGTOW to legitimize their brands today. In 2015 the MRAs decided to appropriate the Red Pill as their own brand to name a feminist’s “journey of self-discovery” movie The Red Pill. This appropriation is continuing with MGTOW now.

As I said on the Red Man Group back in May, the Red Pill is going to have a real PR problem in the coming year. Everything I predicted in my State of the Manosphere address a year ago has come to pass and I predict it will only intensify in the 2020 election cycle. The Gender War needs a convenient, easy-to-hate villain to point to in order to reinforce the Future is Female narrative.

Very soon MGTOW will have the same PR problem. And once the next Eliot Rodger or Alex Minasian incident occurs you’ll see these grifters scatter from MGTOW like roaches when the lights come on. When there are dead women on the sidewalk somewhere, and the MSM is using terms like ‘MGTOW’, ‘Incel’ and ‘radicalization’ that is when all the ‘tribes’ of the Manosphere will throw each other under the bus. That’s when you’ll know who was ‘playing MGTOW’ for likes.

Adaptation

One thing this re-debate of MGTOW has made me reconsider is whether men are adapting to the new realities of the sexual marketplace or just looking to make their necessities a virtue. At its simplest MGTOW is men refusing to make women the measure of their lives, and then molding their lives to their own plan. This pairs nicely with virtually every pet ideology and ‘positivity’ grift in the ‘sphere today. Even Tradcons will agree with MGTOW if it means “Be the best man you can be“. It agrees with Mental Point of Origin. It agrees with Roissy – “You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.” It agrees with “Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

If that was all there was to MGTOW it would simply be Red Pill. What “MGTOW” life-coach grifters don’t realize is that MGOTW is a derivative of the Red Pill. I’ve always argued that once a guy becomes Red Pill aware he cannot help but live in some different fashion. Even the guys who go into complete denial can’t unsee the truths of intersexual dynamics. It’s what you actually do with that new awareness that sets apart Red Pill praxeology from MGTOW in practice. There’s more to MGTOW than just refusing to make women the measure of a man’s life – it’s also deciding what actually is deference to women. And that’s where it becomes highly subjective.

In my last post I outlined how women were upset there weren’t enough ‘eligible‘ men to marry in the current (westernized) sexual marketplace (SMP) today. Of course the two most common responses were either:

  • Women are the victims of the SMP they created. Women’s solipsistic, socially enabled entitlements to an ‘economically attractive’ man (a man who exceeds her own productivity by 58%) only proves the point that women’s social media bloated egos have made them unrealistic tyrants. Now their beliefs and actions have come home to roost.
  • This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?

For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. The Gender War of today exists because of a systematic segregation between men and women (don’t @me with the cultural marxism/’evil juice’ shit for the moment). Honestly, I’m sick of reading about how negative it is to merely point out the realities of this ‘gender cold war’ by Success Porn grifters, but is not MGTOW an adaptation to this segregation? Is not MGTOW an exacerbation of this segregation. When I read mantras like ‘Dogs, Dudes and Dolls’ it sounds an awful lot like ‘Cats, Girlfriends and Vibrators’.

Is MGTOW an adaptation to the conditions in a sexual marketplace that was (and still is) contrived by feminism/gynocentrism?

The following quote is from a long time commenter and friend Deti. This was from a larger discussion that began here if you want to get some context. Sorry guys, I just don’t have the space to repost the whole thread, but I don’t want this to get lost. Hopefully, it will inspire further discussion in this post’s comments:

I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.

About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Women responded to and lived within that milieu in a number of ways.

Using soft power, manipulation, deceit, subterfuge, behind the scenes machinations. Most women were more or less OK with marrying an OK guy, having OK sex, and living an OK life.

Of course, sometimes women cheated on the downlow. Sometimes women cuckolded husbands. I mean real actual traditional definition of cuckolding, which is a married woman getting pregnant by an Alpha and passing the child(ren) off as the Beta Husband’s. There’s no way to know how often that happened, but it wasn’t really rare – Maybe anywhere from 5 to 20% of children then weren’t fathered by their bio-moms’ husbands. In rare cases, not marrying and becoming spinsters, living as bohemians or as “favorite cousins” or “favorite aunts” with male relatives, working as teachers or seamstresses or some other job, and being live in nanny/maid. In rare cases, divorcing and living off family money or a husband’s alimony money. Living as widows and not remarrying.

The point is that women learned how to adapt. There are a lot of reasons for that, but they did adapt.

The main responses men have used today to adapt to changing circumstances have been:

  1. Game/PUA/Seduction – Use the changes to men’s advantage and go for easy sex and the bachelor lifestyle.
  2. MRA – Fighting the changes to advocate for either equalizing the laws or rolling them back to a return to Marriage 1.0 and pre-sexual revolution status.
  3. MGTOW – Check out of the new system, refuse to support or participate in it, and eschew relationships with women to varying degrees.

About, oh, 20 years in, I think we can safely say that option 2) is dead in the water and has been for some time. About the only real reforms here are that divorce and family laws are slowly, very, very slowly, moving toward 50/50 residential custody and away from alimony (except in the case of longer term marriages with breadwinner spouse/dependent nonemployed wife). Unless you have been married more than 20 years and support a housewife, you probably will not be paying alimony except for temporarily. Thats about the entire sum and substance of how “equal” it’s going to get between men and women.

That leaves 1) Game; and (3) MGTOW.

It’s hard to tell what will come out of this. I think we can say:

• Marriage 1.0 is dead and we are never going back to it for at least 2 more generations. If you think you’re going to have a “traditional marriage” where you don’t have to do much to maintain it or you can let up on your attractiveness levels, think again. Because that is not going to happen. If you’re going to marry a woman, you need to improve your attractiveness, marry a woman who is not financially dependent on you, and cultivate your own life separate and apart from her. You need a contingency plan in the event the marriage goes south. And with all that, you need to consider whether you want to risk bringing kids into the mix. You absolutely need a prenuptial agreement, even if it gets judicially torn up or modified later.

The bottom line is, people are still marrying, it’s just that it’s all being pushed out later and later, and people are staying single longer and spending less time married. Many women are meeting the men they eventually marry in their early to mid 20s, and then marrying in their late 20s and early 30s. That’s a paradigm that’s increasing in frequency; this idea of long term dating and engagements lasting 2 to 5 years while both the man and woman establish their careers.

If you want long term relationships you should consider marriage alternatives like living together, or being exclusive while living apart. You absolutely must avoid at all costs these polyamory/polygyny situations, and open marriages. You absolutely must avoid women who want to continue AF’ing it even after they marry. That must be an absolute no go, not an option, ever.

• Men have to improve and increase their sexual attractiveness to create, maintain, and sustain relationships with women. You can’t let up here. That’s IF you want relationships with women.

• More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.

For most men, avoiding women entirely, except for paying hookers, is a no go. The thirst is that strong. The male sex drive is that potent. Most men want to have some contact with women, even if it’s just random hookups now and again. And the only way to do that is to make yourself as sexually attractive as possible. That just is so. Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women. So if you want sex partners, you have to make yourself sexually attractive. And you have to know male and female sexual nature, so that you know what you’re getting into, you know what you’re seeing, you know what women are doing, and you know what women really mean when they talk.

For men, improving one’s own attractiveness increases one’s power in the market. It increases his ability to control some of the selection process. It gives him an abundance mentality. It gives him the power to walk away from situations that disadvantage him. It gives him the ability to tell women “no” and to reject women who cannot or will not give him what he wants and needs.

On the other hand, going your own way can also increase your power in the market. It maximizes your control over your own life. It sharply reduces your responsibilities to others, and increases your opportunities. It frees up your resources to expend the way you want. Sharp reductions in responsibility means a sharp reduction in the needed resources for day to day living, meaning you can work less and increase your leisure time.

I think that more and more men will go pure MGTOW, which is essentially “make the best of a tough situation, be single, and don’t have a family. At least that’s better than getting divorce raped and it’s less work than going to the gym, getting in shape, and eating clean. This way I can eat what I want and work 30 hours a week, and live by myself in my apartment”. It’s kind of similar to women 100 years ago, where the path of least resistance was for Bertha BigGirl, Martha Dumptruck, and Plain Jane to “find a decent, OK man to support me, and probably have at least 3 of his kids. At least it’s better than living with Mom until she dies, and then having to live with my brother and his wife, and taking care of their kids.” And similar to the spinster, the MGTOW will be low status, or at least perceived as low status. But for the spinster and the MGTOW, their lifestyles will be at least better than whatever else they could have gotten.

Guys, Nova is absolutely correct in that men by and large are not adapting.

I think that what’s going on is that many men are saying “want to stay the same, don’t want to do a lot of work, but I still want women to be attracted to me and to be able to date a lot and eventually get married and have a family like (a) mom and dad had when I was growing up; or (b) like I didn’t get to have growing up.” Well, you can’t have that, at least not without working for it. If you want something you’re going to have to work for it. If you want women and sex, you’re going to have to make yourself attractive to women. And the way you’re going to do that, the only way to do that, is to stand out. And the way you stand out is by improving every area of your life – your job, your body, your finances, your lifestyle, your hobbies, your social acumen, and everything else that involves you going through your life.

The funny thing is that when a man stops caring so much about it, forgets about women, and sets about improving his life, he starts attracting women.

That’s the current state of things, I think.

I don’t disagree that we’re presently at a turning point in intersexual relations. After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable. Now that we’re 50 odd years past that point we’re figuring out how reproduction, love, marriage, and something as simple as boy-meets-girl is going to look for future generations. The internet and a social media acculturation on a global scale has seen to it that it will likely never look like it did under the old social contract. There’s a theory that post-agrarian societies experienced a similar shift in intersexual dynamics in our ancestral past. Socially enforced monogamy was the obvious intersexual shift.

Right now we’re seeing a similar shift in intersexual relations. Is it simply better for men and women to live segregated lives? I don’t believe so, but it seems like a larger cultural narrative believes it’s time for both men and women to go their own ways. Until one side concedes, fuck any notion of evolved complementarity is the narrative I guess.

I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting. They always have. It’s that the adaptation is counter to what we might hope is the natural order between men and women.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

560 comments on “Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

  1. Yeah, if one commits to trying to keep up with the winds of changing commercial society life is going to be unnecessarily hard/harsh. That goes for 20 year olds as well as 60 year olds equally.

    Take what’s useful and disregard bullshit, and he smart enough to know the difference.

  2. These ‘Magus” types never like to address Sodini…

    “The perpetrator was 48-year-old Scott Township resident George Sodini (September 30, 1960 – August 4, 2009), a systems analyst at the law firm of K&L Gates.

    On a website registered in his name, Sodini chronicled over a nine-month period his rejections by women and his severe sexual frustration. “Who knows why? I am not ugly or too weird. No sex since July 1990 either (I was 29),” he writes. “Last time I slept all night with a girlfriend it was 1982. Girls and women don’t even give me a second look ANYWHERE.”

    About his problems with women, he wrote: “Women just don’t like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one.” He also wrote about contemplating carrying out a shooting, which he referred to as the “exit plan”, while also revealing that he “chickened out” of carrying out such a shooting earlier in the year. The website states that he was “never married” and concludes “Death Lives!” Sodini states, “Probably 99% of the people who know me well don’t even think I was this crazy.” Sodini is reported to have left a note along inside the gym bag stating his hatred for women.

    It was later revealed that Sodini had left $225,000 for the University of Pittsburgh in his estate.”

    https://nypost.com/2009/08/05/full-text-of-gym-killers-blog/

    George Sodini

    Age 48.

    DOB 9/30/1960

    DOD 8/4/2009

    5-10, 155 lbs.

    Never married.

    Many of the young girls here look so beautiful as to not be human, very edible. After joining this gym, started lifting weights and like it. Much info about weight programs, diet etc on the web.

    December 24, 2008:

    Moving into Christmas again. No girlfriend since 1984, last Christmas with Pam was in 1983. Who knows why. I am not ugly or too weird. No sex since July 1990 either (I was 29). No shit! Over eighteen years ago. And did it maybe only 50-75 times in my life. Getting to think that a woman now would just, uh, get in the way of things. Isolated. I have extra money and enjoy traveling, too, wtih my 25-30 days of vacation. LA was the best! But going alone is not too fun. Invited to a party on Christmas day tomorrow. Seems about 15-25 people will actually show. I like her parties; I can meet new people and talk. Got the next 8 days off. I should have exit plan done and practiced by then. I know nothing will change, no matter how hard I try or what goals I set.

    December 29, 2008:

    Just got back from tanning, been doing this for a while. No gym today, my elbow is sore again. I actually look good. I dress good, am clean-shaven, bathe, touch of cologne – yet 30 million women rejected me – over an 18 or 25-year period. That is how I see it. Thirty million is my rough guesstimate of how many desirable single women there are. A man needs a woman for confidence. He gets a boost on the job, career, with other men, and everywhere else when he knows inside he has someone to spend the night with and who is also a friend. This type of life I see is a closed world with me specifically and totally excluded. Every other guy does this successfully to a degree. Flying solo for many years is a destroyer. Yet many people say I am easy to get along with, etc. Looking back, I owe nothing to desirable females who ask for anything, except for basic courtesy – usually. Looking back over everything, what bothers me most is the inability to work towards whatever change I choose.

    December 31, 2008:

    My anger and rage is largely gone since I began lifting weights. Lifting drains me but I still have energy. Somebody else suggested running but that did not help me. I guess strenuous exercise is necesary for a man. So I just learned that now at 48. Maybe 30 years later than I would have liked. My dad never (not once) talked to me or asked about my life’s details and tell me what he knew. He was just a useless sperm doner. Don’t know why, find it fun talking to young kids when I visit someone. Brother was actually counter-productive and would try to embarase me or discourage my efferts when persuing things, esp girls early on (teen years). Useless bully. Result is I am learning basics by trial and error in my 40s, followed by discuragement. Seems odd, but thats true. Writing all this is helping me justify my plan and to see the futility of continuing. Too embarassed to tell anyone this, at almost 50 one is expected to just know these things.

    I hope it doesn’t snow on Tuesday. Just thought of that. The crowd will be thin so I would postpone. Shit!

    Now that I am on the topic of family and people I know, I might as well make a summary of sorts to show where things stand. This is New Years Eve I have time, no date tonight of course,

    May 29, 2009:

    Another lonely Friday night, I’m done. This is too much.

    June 2, 2009:

    Some people I was talking with believed I date a lot and get around with women. They think this because I showed an email I got from a hot woman to the department gossip, but it didn’t work out. All this is funny. Actually, I haven’t had sex since I was 29 years old, 19 years ago. That’s true.

    June 5, 2009:

    I was reading several posts on different forums and it seems many teenage girls have sex frequently. One 16 year old does it usually three times a day with her boyfriend. So, err, after a month of that, this little hoe has had more sex than ME in my LIFE, and I am 48. One more reason. Thanks for nada, bitches! Bye.

    … ”

    And so on…

    If you do the things I said, you will have sexual relationships, increasing exponentially as your career/networth/confidence grows.

    Simply not true. You MAY have women attracted to you, interested in you. But if you haven’t learned how to talk with girls, how to act with girls, how to have a relationship… you are going to fail.

    Worst case scenario, you can just get a sugar baby or hire a hooker if it is that important to you – both massively cheaper than a wife with less stress and less risk.

    If “that” is important? You mean sex with women? Yes THAT is important to men. And they don’t need to pay for it. And who said ANYTHING about getting married?

    ” I am a huge fan of the pareto principal in all aspects of business and your personal life. You get 80% of the return on the first 20% of your time investment in just about everything you’ll ever do.

    Curious why you can’t apply this to women as well? Issue flagged.

  3. Blax: “Yeah, if one commits to trying to keep up with the winds of changing commercial society life is going to be unnecessarily hard/harsh. That goes for 20 year olds as well as 60 year olds equally.

    Take what’s useful and disregard bullshit, and he smart enough to know the difference.”

    I was just driving to work and Bob Seger’s Against the Wind was nice to listen to.

    “Let the cowboys ride (against the wind).

    And Bob Seger was troubled by the lyric “Wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then…”

    He thought it was grammatically incorrect because you can’t use punctuation in song. He wanted to take it out, but all of his buddies told him it was a great lyric, “leave it in man”.

    This ties into what Sentient mentioned to Youngshagger in Field reports:

    Y.S. On one hand I could talk to more of these girls (who won’t matter in 10 months) and try to get more bangs with the potential cost of my time allocation being a little derailed with trying to accomplish my goals. Or I could delay the gratification more and extend my monk mode throughout the whole year to put myself in the best spot to succeed in my college athletic and academic goals even if that means I might not bang anyone this year.

    Sentient: These are false choices. You can and should be able to be successful athletically and academically and get laid. Others are. Oh yeah – that girl you think won’t matter in 10 months, just might be the one who unlocks a winning attitude you will bring into your female relationships for the rest of your life…

    It speaks to getting out of your head (and out of your red pill head at times). Go out and live your best…even if it is against the wind or the tide or the currents.

    You can’t predict the future (you can determine some things probabilistically by looking around and going “Oh, Shit”) nor the value of a relationship with the feminine. It’s like going deer hunting: You take it as it plays out. And sometimes you have a Peak Experience. You want to have good reference experiences and put them in your portfolio. And you can be any “Pill” you want, any relationship you want (STR, LTR or a blend), but you shouldn’t cock-block yourself unless you want to and it benefits your mental masculine health.

    Young or old, we all have headwinds. Put that wind at your back.

    It seems like yesterday
    But it was long ago
    Janey was lovely she was the queen of my nights
    There in the darkness with the radio playing low
    And the secrets that we shared
    The mountains that we moved
    Caught like a wildfire out of control
    ‘Til there was nothing left to burn and nothing left to prove
    And I remember what she said to me
    How she swore that it never would end
    I remember how she held me oh so tight
    Wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then

    Against the wind
    We were runnin’ against the wind
    We were young and strong, we were runnin’
    Against the wind
    The years rolled slowly past
    And I found myself alone
    Surrounded by strangers I thought were my friends
    I found myself further and further from my home
    And I guess I lost my way
    There were oh so many roads
    I was living to run and running to live
    Never worried about paying or even how much I owed
    Moving eight miles a minute for months at a time
    Breaking all of the rules that would bend
    I began to find myself searching
    Searching for shelter again and again

    Against the wind
    A little something against the wind
    I found myself seeking shelter against the wind

    Well those drifter’s days are past me now
    I’ve got so much more to think about
    Deadlines and commitments
    What to leave in, what to leave out

    Against the wind
    I’m still runnin’ against the wind
    I’m older now but still runnin’ against the wind
    Well I’m older now and still runnin’
    Against the wind
    Against the wind
    Against the wind

    I’m still runnin’ against the wind
    I’m still runnin’ against the wind (against the wind)
    I’m still runnin’ (against the wind)
    I’m still runnin’ against the wind (against the wind)
    Still runnin’ (against the wind)
    Running against the wind
    Running against the wind (against the wind)
    See the young man run (against the wind)
    Watch the young man run (against the wind)
    Watch the young man runnin’ (against the wind)
    He’ll be runnin’ against the wind (against the wind)
    Let the cowboys ride (against the wind)
    Oh (against the wind)
    Let the cowboys ride (against the wind)
    They’ll be ridin’ against the wind (against the wind)
    Against the wind (against the wind)
    Ridin’ against the wind (against the wind)
    Against the wind

    Writer: BOB SEGER

  4. Pertinent to the op, way back in the early 90’s Robert Bly wrote Iron John. Some nuggets in that book: one that stood out was men being IRON and women being COPPER.

    Men suffer when they become like copper: malleable, conductive, taking on other forms too readily.

    So, Blax is spot on as ever when he says look beyond all that, for yourself as a man.

    Yet, walawala points out correctly, too, that the copper-women are taking on the shape of ever more strange and chaotic things.

  5. Magus comment of having other “high value” men in their social circle is not for nothing. And I would say it is essential to the masculine in real life. This need/desire/virtuous circle has not changed over time. Male spaces…

    Our annual October get together of 30 guys was an awesome peak experience. Normally there is one female bartender hostess for food. She flaked. And that made it even better than normal. (This is the party that had me get my ass in gear six years ago when annually one of the guys showed up to say his wife divorced him or he was divorcing his wife five years in a row.)

    Email comments rolling in:

    Dan thanks again for putting together a splendid evening the other night. The company, the food, the deer talk was outstanding. Good luck to you and everyone else this year. –Dave

    Great to see this group each year and meet some new ones. Thanks for being such a gracious host Dan. –Jeff

    Dan, I second Dave’s thoughts, thanks again! –Ed

  6. SJF – it is absolutely not a trope. There are only 24 hours in a day and 8 of them will be eaten up by sleep and for the average person 10 of them will eaten up by 8 hour work day + lunch and commute (and hitting on women at work is nuts in this environment). The high achiever in their careers will likely work 1-2 more hours a day than that.

    That leaves exactly 4-6 hours a day (except 2 days a week) for EVERYTHING else including investing in your person and career growth outside of work, making dinner, showers, cleaning, doing laundry, spending time with family, friends, entertainment etc. You can’t become a gym rat or spend hours approaching women and still execute WELL on the other things. I was working 60 hours+ a week at one point and 20 hours/wk doing an executive MBA from a T10 program, my income is up 6x then 7 years later and will rise exponentially from here. I went from a negative net worth to a million dollar net worth in that time.

    Just like the whole bill of goods sold to women that “You can have it all girl!!” – no you can’t – men have to focus on a handful of things to do well that will have the largest impact on your overall life. You have to focus your efforts to a large extent.Nearly every lifetime girl seeking “alpha” I know that’s slayed hundred+ notch count is broke as hell and even the ones that aren’t are significantly behind in their careers and retirement levels vs their friendset when they were in grade school or college. Yes, there are exceptions – people naturally gifted with intelligence, looks, height, good genes for metabolism, and great conversationalists can do that fairly naturally but most people don’t have all of those or even the majority of those.

    Economics is the study of scare resources and time is the scarcest resource of all.

    Sentient – 1) There are approximately 160 million men in this country. If 1% of 1% of that are at risk of that, that is 16,000 dudes willing to do that. I’m talking about the other 159,984,000 men. 2) I already gave you the answer for those 16,000 dudes – hookers or sugarbabies. There is a reason the female imperative wants them illegal.

  7. Forgot to include this comment for the exclusive invitees:

    “Had a great time as always! This was my second invite! Nice to hang out with people who have the same drive! –Paul”

  8. Hypergamy doesn’t care if you saved her life after killing a terrorist in a mountain in Asia.
    I was watching the documentary called The Dawn Wall, which is about one of the greatest climbers in the world Tommy Caldwell.
    In this, there is the fact that he killed a terrorist after being days as prisoners, he, his girlfriend (ex-wife), and other friend.
    So, after 7 years of marriage, she left him for another guy.
    Hypergamy doesn’t care about shit.

  9. “Yet, walawala points out correctly, too, that the copper-women are taking on the shape of ever more strange and chaotic things.”

    It doesn’t matter.

    What women do/say doesn’t matter.

    It should only matter to them and the rest of the herd.

    Don’t join the herd.

  10. “Nearly every lifetime girl seeking “alpha” I know that’s slayed hundred+ notch count is broke as hell and even the ones that aren’t are significantly behind in their careers and retirement levels vs their friendset when they were in grade school or college”

    ….

    Lol.

  11. Magus

    SJF – it is absolutely not a trope. There are only 24 hours in a day and 8 of them will be eaten up by sleep and for the average person 10 of them will eaten up by 8 hour work day + lunch and commute (and hitting on women at work is nuts in this environment). The high achiever in their careers will likely work 1-2 more hours a day than that.

    That leaves exactly 4-6 hours a day (except 2 days a week) for EVERYTHING else including investing in your person and career growth outside of work, making dinner, showers, cleaning, doing laundry, spending time with family, friends, entertainment etc. You can’t become a gym rat or spend hours approaching women and still execute WELL on the other things. I was working 60 hours+ a week at one point and 20 hours/wk doing an executive MBA from a T10 program, my income is up 6x then 7 years later and will rise exponentially from here. I went from a negative net worth to a million dollar net worth in that time.

    I’m sure you have a very clean room as well…

    I do fine with six hours of sleep, four hours of work, a long lunch with beer or wine and no commute. I don’t have a college degree, or an MBA from T10 program, or any other program. I started a business at 24. I learned very early on you don’t need to work hard, you need to work smart. Never worked weekends etc. I beat your goal by two or three years.

    Sentient – 1) There are approximately 160 million men in this country. If 1% of 1% of that are at risk of that, that is 16,000 dudes willing to do that.

    Again with the mysterious “that”? Which that are you talking about. The that of guys killing women in incel rage or this that?

    “I see twenty something couples everywhere. I see a twenty something guy with a nice twentyish young women. I think those years slipped right by for me. Why should I continue another 20+ years alone? I will just work, come home, eat, maybe do something, then go to bed (alone) for the next day of the same thing. This is the Auschwitz Syndrome, to be in serious pain so long one thinks it is normal. I cannot wait for tomorrow!”

    You think that “that” is limited to 16K guys? Or 16M guys? Of the 160M guys, how many aren’t satisfied with their sex life or relations with women?

  12. “Hypergamy doesn’t care about shit.”

    Actually hypergamy does care, it cares a great deal. It cares enough to take risk, to take action, to do… It just doesn’t care about the same stuff you care about.

  13. “Hypergamy doesn’t care if you saved her life after killing a terrorist in a mountain in Asia.
    I was watching the documentary called The Dawn Wall, which is about one of the greatest climbers in the world Tommy Caldwell.
    In this, there is the fact that he killed a terrorist after being days as prisoners, he, his girlfriend (ex-wife), and other friend.
    So, after 7 years of marriage, she left him for another guy.
    Hypergamy doesn’t care about shit.”

    True.

    A feature, not a bug.

  14. Sentient

    “You think that “that” is limited to 16K guys? Or 16M guys? Of the 160M guys, how many aren’t satisfied with their sex life or relations with women?”

    +100

  15. “after 7 years of marriage, she left him for another guy”

    Hypergamy?

    No. It is better explained by David M. Buss’ The Mate Switching Hypothesis. Otherwise known as finding a different mate.

    Both Caldwell and Rodden(ex-wife) found other mates and had children by those new mates.

    They weren’t one and only soulmates.

  16. Trigger warning: reflection on autism

    “A lot of the adversity is self imposed.”

    (I enjoy your posts–even more if they have a lot of downvotes. You sound like an academic, but are actually far from it.)

    And some adversity is imposed by others (e.g., FI-imposed mental programs), but men have the capability of overcoming the adversity.

    If you’re autistic, you didn’t choose to be that way and it’s definitely a different kind of adversity. On the plus side, if you’re autistic, your body may be in better shape when you’re older than non-autists. And there was an interesting article that I read yesterday about some of the advantages of being anti-social. If you’re anti-social, you can focus more on personal missions and don’t have to expend much energy being social. So autists tend to be more obsessive about their personal missions than non-autists and autists tend to have more energy to expend on their personal missions. Autists cannot muster much energy or focus outside of their missions on things like admin or maintenance, so that’s the downside of autism. And autists tend to not be physically dominant in childhood and adolescense and early adulthood. Around age 30, autists may become physically dominant if they pursue strength training and sports. I’m over 60 and am stronger now than I have ever been.

    Autists may not be leaders in society, but, if they marry, are more likely to be alphas in their family simply because they generally present as zero fucks given and are likely to be less invested in the relationship than is the spouse.

    NB

    Some of my mental wiring lets me be a kind of idiot savant about problems that I see. I can get the answer almost immediately without having to reason my way to it (and without being able to explain why the answer is correct, either, lol). One technical security problem at work I knew the answer immediately but couldn’t explain to my boss or genius-level peers why it was the right answer; I had to reason out why the answer was correct in order to persuade my boss and peers. They were impressed, but really my advantage was due to my unusual wiring. I theorized that my mental wiring had been converted from real-time social-signal processing to analysis. That could be accidental, genetic, or environmental in origin and may not be related to autism. Even though I may know the right answer, I still often feel compelled to prove that the answer is correct, which exercises my mind.

    (This wiring sometimes encourages me to be arrogant towards those who can’t come up with the right answer; I need to not do that. I don’t need to create social problems for myself for no profit.)

  17. “15 minutes once a week at home”

    Pretend you are in federal prison and can only do bodyweight exercises…

    …pushups, situps (raise feet if you need more weight), crunches, good mornings with half a bed (or dumbbells), leg lifts, single leg squats in a door frame, etc….

    …you can put up a bar and do pullups, which you can’t do in a federal prison…

    …you can exercise your lats with dumbbells…

    …military press with dumbbells…

    …of course, if you travel a lot like I do, you may have to rent weights.

    single leg squats in a door frame won’t exercise your upper body like deadlifts will…

  18. “You can’t become a gym rat or spend hours approaching women and still execute WELL on the other things.”

    for an educated t10 motherfucker this and that lol

    hypertrophy is not the answer to hypergamy

    it’s not pumped up water filled muscles, body fat percentage and the “right” shirt

    it’s the will to go to the garage and deadlift heavy when it’s 10 below outside

    most guys will never know their limits

    because they are afraid to break themselves

  19. oh yeah, I forgot about this here…

    “Blaximus That ad is totally on topic which if you take a moment to stop spamming us with your teenage reminiscences you’ll note is “Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?””

    Lol.

    Past, is prologue. ” teenage years ” are formative for the future.

    Don’t hate, motivate.

  20. “because they are afraid to break themselves”

    …reminds me of the time where I was benching a measly 70 pounds as a 14 year old weighing maybe 110 lbs….a kid was “spotting” for me who turned out to be crazy and he started pushing down on the weights as I was lifting. I was able to lift the weight and defeat his pressure…that was some serious adversity…lol…he could have killed me…he got sent home from boarding school shortly after that…

    adversity…diversity…perversity…

  21. Hi,

    I am a 29 year old eastern european living in the UK. I am an engineer and make some good money, lift 3-4 times a week, do occasianally some mma in the evenings, ok dressed, but 5ft6 and balding :(. And guess what I can’t get pussy to save my life :D. I am thinking of taking the black pill. Just don’t see a way out of this, i bang hookers eveery now and then, cuz my T leves are a bit higher than avg and think about sex all the frickin time :D. I think black pill guys have it right, some things are genetics and you can’t win no matter how much you ” self improve” or ” think positively” .

    1. @Aqua. Stay on this forum and listen to the men and what they have to say. They are all good men.

      If you become Black Pill you will become an Incel because you want women but feel like you can’t meet them. That is a limiting mindset. Your height is not the limiter. Stay away from that road.

      A subject I do know about is Prossies/Escorts. My advice, stop wasting your money on them. These kind of women drain your masculine energy as well as your wallet. I was visiting them, at times twice a week. I got into the mindset that the only way I could have sex with a woman, or for a woman to feel something for me, was by paying her. A few regulars I had visited on multiple occasions, I even believed they cared about me. But the next day I would get an empty, demoralising feeling knowing I was lieing to myself. It chipped away at me and I felt less of a man and not in control of my life.

      So, I would visit the same woman again thinking she would feel something for me. And when I was with her I would believe that she did because that was her job, to make me believe she felt something for me. It really pushed me into a dark place and I found it difficult to socialise with regular women.

      All you need to know about women is that they are just women. It matters nought if she is an SMV 5, 10 or an Escort. Value yourself as a man and you will meet women of value. Prossies are not women of value because they do not value themselves.

  22. @aqualinespirit

    If you spend very little of your free time interacting with women in social settings you get no free pussy. Likewise if you go out to clubs, pubs, and shows but you rarely interact same results. If your idea of interacting with a woman is to walk up and say hi, then fail.

  23. Redlight,

    +100

    Aqua

    Being an engineer, doing mma, making money etc. Those things are for you and a majority of women that aren’t golddigging won’t be wowed by any of this if you can’t spark attraction and interest.

    If your nose isn’t on the back of your head, there’s always a shot. You might consider spending as much time developing your personality and social skills as you did becoming an engineer and learning mma. All are equally important.

    I have a brother in law that start balding in his 40’s, and after his hairline went to the middle of his head he started shaving it. Who knew he looked so much like vin diesel? Talk about ioi’s.

    My other brother in law is 5’5″ give or take. He too was balding and wears his remaining hair almost shaved/extremely low cut. Much to my sister in-laws dismay, his personality is such that he’s cheated on her numerous times with much younger women. They pursue him. He told me once that he doesn’t intend to cheat, but that it’s the women making the offers and after a while he just gives in. Lol.

    Yes, a man has to improve himself but that improvement is for you first. ” Improvements ” should also include maximizing your personality and social skills, and that can only happen through repeatedly interacting with people and learning about how you’re perceived and then amplifying your positives. Note: I said ” amplifying ” and not ” faking “.

    Going” black pill ” is quitting on yourself. Why do that? Did you quit learning to become an engineer? If someone puts you in numerous submission holds making you tap out will you quit mma, or will you improve?

    ” Results ” with women are more predictable than you ( or many men outside of pua ) realize. You just need to know the theory and the ground rules. Then go out and take note. A degree o r a nice shirt won’t get you laid. That’s one of the worse fallacies ever promoted to men.r

    So if balding bothers you, and you have the head shape for it grab a razor and see what happens. That’s easy because hair grows back. Just understand that if ” balding ” is the strongest thing about you in any interactions, that’s what people Will use in mentally and verbally defining you.

    I listen when women describe men. It’s informative. Sometimes a girl will describe a man to me as ” funny, smart and really sexy/attractive in a way… “. Then I often hear ” well, he’s short. Real short. and he has a funny haircut, but he’s a good person “. If all they can relay about you is “…he’s an engineer or something” , that’s a fail. Don’t believe me? Good – to out and engage 100 women in conversation and work a question into the conversation about a bf or husband or neighbor or the last guy that hit on them. See what the first 2 descriptors are.

    Women aren’t mysteries or complicated or evil, none of that. They are much, much more predictable than you know, but FIRST you have to understand that They aren’t men with tits.

  24. @aqualinespirit

    “I am a 29 year old eastern european living in the UK.”

    Sounds like racist self discrimination.

    “I am an engineer and make some good money,”

    ^= I am serious and spend to much time wrapped around the axle.

    “lift 3-4 times a week, do occasianally some mma in the evenings,”

    Good, if you are doing these things for yourself.

    ” ok dressed,”

    ^= conformatist,needs to learn to peacock.

    “but 5ft6 and balding :(.”

    At least you aren’t cute; Short fat and bowlegged. Ive seen worse genetics that stepped up to the plate with charisma and charm on demand and slayed on a regular basis.

    “And guess what I can’t get pussy to save my life :D. I am thinking of taking the black pill. Just don’t see a way out of this,”

    ^ now this is just negative,I don’t care who you are.

    “i bang hookers eveery now and then, cuz my T leves are a bit higher than avg and think about sex all the frickin time :D.”

    I do it because I can. Try this next time you hire a pro go ahead and work Mystery method on her just for fun and practice and even though you are paying make her enjoy the encounter more than you.

    ” I think black pill guys have it right, some things are genetics and you can’t win no matter how much you ” self improve” or ” think positively” .

    Keep your face to the sun and that shadow will be behind you.

  25. @aqualinespirit

    It is also hard to pinpoint what victory is, and victories are, isn’t it? You want to be more valued and better liked by females; but if that had happened consistently more than it has, perhaps you would have sunk in love for one of them — she would, initially, have partly reciprocated it, to then proceed to turn her back on you — and you would have gone mad, or killed her and/or yourself, and so on.

    We can hardly ever know what, in our walk of life, is a win or a loss. Perhaps if no female ever “loves” you, you won’t experience a certain kind of mental woe, and that’s more of a win than what you would have happen to you.

  26. … Yeah, give up mma because somebody might break your neck one day. It’s hard to know exactly what the future holds and whatnot.

  27. @aqualinespirit

    And guess what I can’t get pussy to save my life :D. I am thinking of taking the black pill. Just don’t see a way out of this

    There are two ways out of this: give up, go black pill, hate women, hate yourself and rationalize the whole thing as your life sucks.

    The second way is to start learning game both inner and outer game. Read the Mystery Method, start opening women. The reason Mystery wrote this was to put some sort of structure around meeting women. The routines, the various openers etc were designed especially for guys (like me and you) to have some understanding of what sparks female to make attraction and work with it.

    Nearly 10 years ago I was in your situation, it was hit and miss with women. Learning Game and understanding the Red Pill turned it around for me. I’m now in my 50’s and have a rotation of 3 girls all of whom are in their 20’s, professional, hot, interesting and chase me.

    If I’d just given up I would be exactly where I was instead of where I am.

    Think about it…

  28. “… Yeah, give up mma because somebody might break your neck one day.”

    …and don’t drive to work because you might die in a wreck…

    …and don’t take a train because it might derail…

    …and don’t walk because you might get hit by a vehicle…

    …just stay in your flat and starve…

    /sarcasm off

  29. @Simon

    ” Most of the MGTOW I know are great and highly succesful men who made a superbly rational choice about the women of today – they are not worth ANY kind of effort or investment in terms of time, money, mental or emotional energy.”

    …and their MGTOW genes aren’t worth ANY kind of effort or investment in terms of time, money, mental or emotional energy–that’s what they themselves say by not reproducing…such men are voting that their genes are shit…selling themselves short…really fucking stupid…but hey, if you wanna win the Darwin Award, more power to ya…

    (of course, some MGTOWs have kids already, so what I said isn’t relevant in their case)

    …but if you put in the effort to fix up a feral woman for the benefit of your future kids, it’s like putting in effort to fix up an antique car, only better, because you aren’t filtering your own genes out of the gene pool…

    I’m curious…have any of you MGTOWs ever run across a “ride or die” woman?

    Gamer Maxim: Never marry a feral woman unless you have the skills to train her and have trained women in the past to be “ride or die.”

  30. And the issue really isn’t about patriotism, but biology. People who fear overpopulation are liberal because the overpopulation scare is part of the liberal narrative.

  31. The future is up for grabs but I disagree with your prediction. MGTOW was already demonetized after the CNN interview and the 2nd wave adpocalypse on YouTube. There’s no money left. That’s why YogiOabs and Alexander Grace left MGTOW and rebranded as “Red Pill”. Also, Incel is a more popular search term than MGTOW, and Incels are creating “The Black Pill”. Because of Big John, the face of MGTOW to the MSM is just bitter divorced men. Full response on my blog here: https://moonbasemgtow.com/2019/10/15/why-big-john-saved-mgtow-rollo-tomassi-response/

  32. kfg, you should probably look at some critiques of the Club of Rome’s “Limits to Growth.” We were supposed to run out of oil long ago because of overpopulation. E.g.,

    By the 1970s, overpopulation hysteria came fully back into vogue. Stanford University biologist Paul Ehrlich published The Population Bomb in 1968, which opened with the lines, “The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now.” Shortly thereafter, in 1972, the Club of Rome issued a report called The Limits to Growth. It bolstered the old argument that population growth would deplete resources and lead to a collapse of society with evidence from computer simulations based on dubious assumptions.

    Many prominent environmentalists — from Johns Hopkins University bioethicist Travis Rieder to entertainer Bill Nye “The Science Guy” — support tax penalties or other state-imposed punishments for having “too many” children.

    It is now well-documented that as countries grow richer, and people escape poverty, they opt for smaller families — a phenomenon called the fertility transition. It is almost unheard of for a country to maintain a high fertility rate after it passes about $5,000 in per-person annual income. Alarmism and extreme measures to combat “overpopulation” are entirely unnecessary.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/07/30/how-big-of-a-problem-is-overpopulation/#53620133216a

    Environmentalists are liberals, in case you have forgotten.

    Who is pushing the carbon tax? Liberals or conservatives? Climate change is being used to justify a massive power grab by liberals. (Conservatives used 9-11 to justify the creation of DHS. Power grabs are done by conservatives, too.)

  33. “Environmentalists are liberals, in case you have forgotten.”

    Some of these words aren’t just team names. They have actual meaning.

    “Who is pushing the carbon tax?”

    Wanna be aristocrat authoritarians. To the point where the only thing they hate worse than a fascist (whatever that is) is a liberal.

  34. ” . . . try to come up with an actual argument.”

    In the words of Marion, madam librarian, “You’ll find it in Paine and Voltaire.”

  35. “Language is my whore, my mistress, my wife, my pen-friend, my check-out girl. Language is a complimentary moist lemon-scented cleansing square or handy freshen-up wipette. Language is the breath of God, the dew on a fresh apple”

    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt in your philosophy.”

    “A rose, by any other name…”

    “Politics makes strange bedfellows.”

    Shakespeare anticipated Voltaire quite a lot.

    I’m still waiting for you to hit the ball over the net.

  36. “And the issue really isn’t about patriotism, but biology. People who fear overpopulation are liberal because the overpopulation scare is part of the liberal narrative.”

    @ASD

    I like your statements for the individual man.

    And humans were successful as a species by being good at overpopulating. Because of their large brains and adaptation over adversity. Which they did big time.

    But to suggest that over population is a goal is quite a miss-step.

    The proper goal is to have your tribe populate. Your tribe starts at two people and goes up-ward. And not to infinity.

    It goes to the Dunbar’s Number.

    Anthropology would suggest that small 75-150 numbered tribes were harmonious.

    ASD seems to be advocating rabbit-like breeding. Which doesn’t work for humans. Large populations of inordinate tribes breeds warring. Do you even history Bro?

    It’s about you and your offspring. Not about Chad’s and MGTOW’s breeding.

    What out group breeding does is just Bring on Da Noise.

    It’s not necessary or warranted. Don’t set external expectations on others breeding. It just waters down your genes. If your genes are good.

    It’s not even close to suggest that others need to breed. Or that that is desirable.

    Each man is out for their own genes. Other genes are competitors to his.

    Keep it small. Keep it bottoms up. Top down breeds ingroup malice and outgroup altruism. Which leads to chaos and exploitation.

    Stop focusing on details and look at a bigger picture ASD. That specifically doesn’t mean have a global approach to everyone should breed. I’d prefer a lot of people don’t actually breed. The big picture is bottoms up approach. Not top down. Take care of yourself. Then you can use altruism to help your wife, family, kids, buddies, co-workers, social circle and others.

    Peace.

  37. So, @Moonbasemgtow,

    Who are you and what is your story?

    Why are you here? Tell us what narrative you are selling?

    And WTF? is this:

    However, there are still scraps to be had, and that comprises of people like Rollo Tomassi and others that brand themselves as “Red Pill”.

    However, as their audience continues to shrink, they are opting to lash out at peripheral groups, like MGTOW.

    Rollo’s latest hot take claims that MGTOW has been infiltrated by grifters, and their growth will only lead them to becoming a target by the mainstream media in the next escalation of the modern Gender Cold War.

    Audience continues to shrink?…

    Your inclusion of “Big John’s most excellent interview with a interview girl was only an indictment of Big John being in a Grief Stage.

    I have no fucking idea of who Big John is. Or who you are. So why don’t you explain to the peanut gallery. Who you guys are and what you take issue with. And what you have to say. From the bottoms up.

    Go and give us a foundational narrative.

    Assuming we know nothing about you. And are ignorant of what you think. And what your message and bottoms up approach for men should be.

    Especially for me who likes and engages with women. And don’t find difficulties in doing so.

    And what we should tell our 25 year old sons.

    And don’t hold back or be reticent here. We are all ears.

    Thanks. And welcome to the debate. You started off on a weak tripod statement. Your premise is that MGTOW is the way to be and you Red Pill fuckers are losing the debate to youse grief stage MGTOWS. You are your grift-ing a narrative of grief. Prove you and Big John are not.

    I mentioned upstream I was listening to Bob Seger’s Against the Wind on the radio driving to work around noon on Monday. Well, I’ll be darned. I drove to work this AM before 9:00 and guess what, it was playing again. Go Figure.

    Come on. You can do better than that open. YGBFSM.

  38. I timed out editing, so:

    I mentioned upstream I was listening to Bob Seger’s Against the Wind on the radio driving to work around noon on Monday. Well, I’ll be darned. I drove to work this AM before 9:00 and guess what, it was playing again. Go Figure. A narrative of facing Adversity and dealing with it. Otherwise known as adapting. Which is fine for you MGTOW’s. Go ahead and adapt that way. But don’t talk down the Red Pill guys that find plunging into the feminine as a way as adapting to the New World Disorder.

    The greatest thing I hated in my career was being lectured to. When I knew better than the lecturer.

  39. I don’t mind how hard life gets or whatever happens to me. All i have is my adaptions with time and perseverance, My grandfather would be 100 today if he didn’t die 8 yrs ago. i’m part of a scared legacy beyond the trauma of itself. I will get better and the process is more than stressful but that won’t mean i give up.
    Just a place for re composure than a new charge out in the dance floor of life and relationships.

    1. @rugby11. Very eloquent. This is why this community is so good and why I stay here. It adds positive value and guidance for men who want to be part of life and like women to compliment their lives.

      MGTOW is a fad. A sales pitch. A cash in. I watched a video by Coach Greg Adams who was not best pleased that Rich Cooper had called MGTOWS ‘Doll fuckers’. Adams states that he is the real deal as he is not trying to sell anything and just deals in the truth. ALL the MGTOW and PUA coaches, charging 1000s, who are triggering young men claim to be ‘The Truth’. He maintains that the Red Pill would not exist without MGTOW. That is a chicken and egg argument.

      So, MGTOW claims that the issue is with them being sold a bad deal by a feminised society (I agree with this to a point.) and women are to blame (completely wrong). They do the bitter and angry routine and hold women accountable for their shitty lives when they need to be looking at themselves. If a man’s life is shitty he needs to re-evaluate why his life is so, change, adapt and not blame external sources. They act like a baby who throws the toys out of its pram because they do not want to play with them anymore. Interesting fact, children’s brains between the age of 2 and 7 are unable to conceptualise an object existing unless it is in the line of sight. This can be demonstrated with ‘peek-a-boo’ games with babies and younger children.

      My apologies for using shaming techniques but these people do slightly trigger me. Outside TRM I just feel the whole manosphere is a shit show.

  40. Cancún foam canon party

    A documentary about today’s young adult hookup culture and the stories in pop-culture that influence it.
    Liberated: The New Sexual Revolution is a documentary about today’s young adult hookup culture. The film follows the journey of college students during their Spring Break revelries, offering an insightful look into their attitudes and behaviors regarding sex. It is an honest and raw depiction of this casual sex environment where sexual violation has become normal. Liberated widens the view of today’s hookup culture by examining the role of pop-culture in shaping conceptions of gender and sexuality that underlie this new sexual revolution. Written by Benjamin Nolot
    Also
    https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/dreamboyz-espresso-shop-opens-in-capitol-hill-employing-shirtless-male-baristas/987410453
    I suppose he has a christian slant according to his twitter account

  41. I drop into a great restaurant and order the combo plate. It arrives, and is delicious as usual, when an older guy sits himself down and starts talking. He says he is the owner, and the restaurant business is going the way he said it would go, getting highly competitive. He says some other places have copied the best of his menu items. He goes on that Beyond Meat is the big thing right now, and some are selling the sizzle more than the Beyond Meat. Some dude walks by and says actually Vegan is the way, nobody wants anything to do with animals, and walks off. Then some madman bursts through the doors, shouts he is the president of all restaurants and that this place is a fraud. He runs off. Since the food was terrific, but the ambience was awful, how much a tip should I leave?

  42. “Interesting fact, children’s brains between the age of 2 and 7 are unable to conceptualise an object existing unless it is in the line of sight. This can be demonstrated with ‘peek-a-boo’ games with babies and younger children.”

    Tested this–definitely not true. Babies can point to boxes containing crackers and will say “cracker”. And with peekaboo games they learn to anticipate.

    From what I can tell, MGTOWs just eschew LTRs and are Ok with sex and no kids. As I’ve said before, this behavior is biologically irrelevant–like the Shakers.

    If someone ought to feel ashamed, then shaming is appropriate, assuming that you are seeking someone’s improvement.

    1. @Asd. My apologies, got the ages mixed up there. It’s much younger than 2 – 7. Up to 8 months a baby has not developed ‘object permanence’. They are unable to understand an object exists if it is not visible.

      2 – 7 is preoperational. Kids logic is flawed and they don’t understand cause and effect. Hide and seek games can come down to “If I can’t see you, you can’t see me”

  43. “Since the food was terrific, but the ambience was awful, how much a tip should I leave?”

    The server gets the tip,if the setting was neat and clean and the service was prompt and courteous 20% is gratuitous.

  44. “” Shame ” is an outdated concept that no longer exists.”

    just like women no longer exist if you pretend that you can’t see them

    I tell ya, MGTOWs are such lolcows.

  45. ” The problem I am having right now is that many factions of the media and the Manosphere are confusing and conflating the concept of a ‘red pill’ mindset with that of a ‘black pill’ mindset. When a man is truly red pill, he tends to evaluate women’s behavior in a manner that is realistic, objective, and fair and balanced. Conversely, when a man adopts what is known as a ‘black pill’ mindset, his attitude toward women tends to be more representative of negativity toward women, bitterness toward women, antagonism toward women, and in some cases, even blatant misogyny and violence toward women. I do not want my name or brand even remotely associated with that,” added Currie, who has been interviewed on national television and national syndicated broadcast radio in addition to being featured in a number of major newspapers and magazines.”

    https://www.pr.com/press-release/791665

  46. To be perfectly Frank, the news should read 31 yo florida con artist sees opening to jack the slang term for an online male space and file it as his own llc trade name in an attempt to increase revenue for his failing conventions.

    Should we rename our free space? Do we need a president?

  47. “A narrative of facing Adversity and dealing with it. Otherwise known as adapting.”

    adapting, lol…cutting off your own balls and hiding your head in the sand…adapting, lol

    SJF, sometimes you are too funny

  48. “adapting, lol…cutting off your own balls and hiding your head in the sand…adapting, lol”

    It doesn’t have to be.

    It is a tool to persevere. Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius and Seneca used adaptation/change in the sense of changing one’s emotions. Not hiding ones head in the sand but holding it high with a healthy masculine, mindset. Avoiding a feminine demeanor.

    Adaptation can be a process of Reduction. Sloughing off emotional fears. Facing Resistance and moving through it in a Flow State.

    Fear (irrational expectation of something bad or harmful) vs. Caution or discretion (rational aversion of truly harmful things).

    https://www.iep.utm.edu/wp-content/media/stoicism-passions.jpeg

    “Once you have identified with some form of negativity, you do not want to let it go, and on a deeply unconscious level, you do not want positive change. It would threaten your identity as a depressed, angry or hard-done by person. You will then ignore, deny or sabotage the positive in your life. This is a common phenomenon. It is also insane.” -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now

    “We fear discovering that we are more than we think we are. More than our parents, children, or teachers think we are. We fear that we actually possess the talent that our still, small voice tells us. That we actually have the guts, the perseverance, the capacity. We fear that we truly can steer our ship, plant our flag, reach our Promised Land. We fear this because, if it’s true, then we become estranged from all we know. We pass through a membrane. We become monsters and monstrous.” -Steven Pressfield, The War of Art

    “All that we ‘know’ is what registers on our brains, so what you perceive (your individual reality-tunnel) is made up of nothing but thoughts—as Sir Humphrey Davy noted when self-experimenting with nitrous oxide in 1819, and as Buddha noticed by sitting alone until all his social imprints atrophied and dropped away.” -Dr. Robert Anton Wilson, Prometheus Rising

    “Your woman knows your weaknesses better than anybody. She knows where you will falter and give up. She knows the degree of mediocrity you will settle for. And, she knows your true capacity as a full man, a man of free consciousness and love. Her gift, if she is a good woman, is to test you with her darkest moods, over and over and over, until your consciousness is unperturbed by feminine challenge, and you are able to pervade her with your love, just as you are here to pervade the world. In response to your fearless consciousness, she will drench your world in love and light.” -David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man

    “Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor are the alpha virtues of men all over the world. They are the fundamental virtues of men because without them, no “higher” virtues can be entertained. You need to be alive to philosophize. You can add to these virtues and you can create rules and moral codes to govern them, but if you remove them from the equation altogether you aren’t just leaving behind the virtues that are specific to men, you are abandoning the virtues that make civilization possible.” -Jack Donovan, The Way of Men

    “Knowing others is intelligence;
    knowing yourself is true wisdom.
    Mastering others is strength;
    mastering yourself is true power.”
    -Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

    “You do not need to do many different exercises to get strong – you need to get strong on a very few important exercises, movements that train the whole body as a system, not as a collection of separate body parts. The problem with the programs advocated by all the national exercise organizations is that they fail to recognize this basic principle: the body best adapts as a whole organism to stress applied to the whole organism. The more stress that can be applied to as much of the body at one time as possible, the more effective and productive the adaptation will be.” -Mark Rippetoe, Starting Strength

    “Handling an emotional crisis leads to greater wisdom and results in lifetime benefits. Fear of life is really the fear of emotions. It is not the facts that we fear but our feelings about them. Once we have mastery over our feelings, our fear of life diminishes.” -David Hawkins M.D. Ph.D., Power vs. Force

    “Do not wait: the time will never be ‘just right’. Start where you stand, and work whatever tools you may have at your command and better tools will be found as you go along.” -Napoleon Hill, Think and Grow Rich

    “The Wild Man doesn’t come to full life through being “natural,” going with the flow, smoking weed, reading nothing, and being generally groovy. Ecstasy amounts to living within reach of the high voltage of the golden gifts. The ecstasy comes after thought, after discipline imposed on ourselves, after grief.” -Robert Bly, Iron John

    Iron John:

    Essentially, what’s going on here, is John exists in the “mother world,” or the world where emotions, intuition, and sensitivity reign supreme. This is the case for all of us; there is a reason why boys of the past were often torn away from their mothers at the age of 8 to become men.

    John is afraid of becoming a man, however—as most young boys are. Being a man involves being courageous, decisive, assertive, and having many qualities that are difficult to develop. This is why he turns down the Wild Man’s offer.

    Eventually, however, it is time to become a man—he must steal the key from his mother. This is symbolic of the fact that becoming a man is often a rebellion against the “mother world.”

    Mothers want to smother their baby boys in love and affection, and keep them in a permanent state of boyhood. Ever seen a Jewish mother kiss her 45 year old son on the forehead and pinch his cheek? That’s what she’s doing.

    It is no coincidence that in order to let out the Wild Man, or his inner masculinity, John must steal the key from his mother, or rebel against the mother world. It is only through standing up to our mothers and asserting our masculinity that they will come to respect us, and that we will come to be men.

    John decides to man up—he steals the key from his mother, and unleashes the Wild Man. This is where his journey towards manhood begins.

    “Just know that it’s fear that keeps most people working at a job. The fear of not paying their bills. The fear of being fired. The fear of not having enough money. the fear of starting over. That’s the price of studying to learn a profession or trade, and then working for money. Most people become a slave to money… and then get angry at their boss.” -Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad Poor Dad

    “The market is a pendulum that forever swings between unsustainable optimism (which makes stocks too expensive) and unjustified pessimism (which makes them too cheap). The Intelligent Investor is a realist who sells to optimists and buys from pessimists.” -Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

    *Equanimity: mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation.

  49. Her gift, if she is a good woman, is to test you with her darkest moods, over and over and over, until your consciousness is unperturbed by feminine challenge, and you are able to pervade her with your love, just as you are here to pervade the world. In response to your fearless consciousness, she will drench your world in love and light.” -David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man

    You wouldn’t expect anything lesser than that, from someone selling to “men” how to be “superior” specimens.
    Take what is tragedy, embrace it, and call it nice fine and victory.
    Be a consciousless, biologically-driven tool, and call it “pervading her with your love”, whilst you call her “reward” “drenching your world in love and light”.

    Or have a tad of dignity… pervade your mind, and realize that all that thing self-proud tools embrace, and sharper-gurus sell them, is all but love, and any sliver of love will make the castle of cards collapse, and all is possible but love.
    She is a biological machine that will tear to shreds your mind and nervous system (and, why not? your physical health too) if you think anything about love can be between you and her.

    She is a biological machine with a hole between her legs designed to select biological machines with a stick between their legs, filtering out anything that has anything do to with “love”: love her, and see the outcome.
    Don’t love her, and have her “love” you, claim that you “love” her, and the Deidas of this world congratulate you on being a superior man (or a superior customer, who knows).

  50. “Adversity plays an important role in relationships… 👉 It’s going through those challenging times together that you get to REALLY know your partner and see what your relationship is made of! Don’t shy away from it… It‘s what adds DEPTH & COMMITMENT. ”

    — George Bruno

    Bruno at it again…

    Wut wait a sec {squints]}… J U L I E N….?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B3kiGcCnvRL/

  51. “She is a biological machine that will tear to shreds your mind and nervous system (and, why not? your physical health too) if you think anything about love can be between you and her.”

    After….

    “” The problem I am having right now is that many factions of the media and the Manosphere are confusing and conflating the concept of a ‘red pill’ mindset with that of a ‘black pill’ mindset. When a man is truly red pill, he tends to evaluate women’s behavior in a manner that is realistic, objective, and fair and balanced. Conversely, when a man adopts what is known as a ‘black pill’ mindset, his attitude toward women tends to be more representative of negativity toward women, bitterness toward women, antagonism toward women, and in some cases, even blatant misogyny and violence toward women. I do not want my name or brand even remotely associated with that,” added Currie, who has been interviewed on national television and national syndicated broadcast radio in addition to being featured in a number of major newspapers and magazines.”

    Machine???

    Really???

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/32/T-X_%28Kristanna_Loken%29.jpg/220px-T-X_%28Kristanna_Loken%29.jpg

  52. “Currie expressed that initially, the Manosphere was more so about helping men improve their level of romantic success with women, but over the last five plus years, the Manosphere has slowly began to become more associated with a ‘men vs. women’ narrative with many bloggers and podcasters repeatedly discussing their hatred of modern-day feminism and their profound disdains toward the overall concept of romance, monogamy, and marriage.”

  53. “Wut wait a sec {squints]}… J U L I E N….?”

    he’s just trolling….

    no way bride approves photo with fucking power lines in the background

    no way that guy got married

    but if he did can somebody send her the video of him bitching out on cnbc

    will dry her used pussy right up

  54. “Registry and all…”

    your secretary could make those pages in an hour….

    and she would have made sure to shop the pics like a real photographer

    isn’t this his business model now…. married soulmate crap…..gotta have a “wife” to do that lol

    raised seal marriage license or it didn’t happen

  55. Maybe the problem is Red Pills think people should only adapt to whatever they feel comfortable with.

    Here’s crazy crackers getting tired of obnoxiously pale pin-cushions writing bullshit about them.

    Here’s a sane MGTOW thinking about how he will continue to spread his message. This name is Think before you Sleep.

    Here’s nerds standing up to communism;

    This might not be adaptation yet. But it’s an encouraging start.

  56. Yollo

    I agree with about 70% of what this guy says –

    I’m just not sold on the hype that this is fully the fault of any Frankfurt School or anything other than good old fashioned capitalist money making. Yeah, it got started with ideals ( that sucked ass ), but it’s spread by hyper-connected corporations, and they have ONE ideal – CASH.

    One thing I do agree with that this guys said, Social Media plays a huge part in the devolution.

    ” There is NO counter-culture “….

    Amen.

  57. Once the “old guys ” ( lol ) who have seen life before this catastrophe are gone, the devolution will accelerate.

    forward to 3:30

    https://youtu.be/bRCwe7J_4YE?t=210

    Years ago Asd and I were going back and forth as he accused me of supporting Black Lives Matter. I’ve never seen a BLM march or protest, because they can’t get a good toe hold where I live. Yet, this imaginary group saturated social media as if they were a massive movement or something.

    Even Asd drank the BLM kool aide ( because it stokes bad feelz …. as designed ).

    it’s kinda like Anthony Johnson turning ” Manosphere ” into a LLC. Is this going to be anything real?

    Fuck No.

    But give it time and enough social media exposure and people will buy it, literally.

  58. Blaximus
    ” There is NO counter-culture “….

    Amen.

    Define terms. I know some men who are pretty counter cultural – married to one woman, 4+ children, hold down a job, keep wife busy, go to their church, help other people – all counter cultural by the standards of modern culture. They also homeschool and are staying “under the radar”.

  59. So, while this topic deals with grifters and an increasing number of would-be bandwagon hopping get-rich guys leveraging the burgeoning size of the Manosphere for profit…what’s the latest status of the delusion narcissist Pipe Dream Johnson?

    Last I checked, signs pointed to Poland not being as great as it “should” have been, and he was melting down on Twatter constantly screaming into the void for no reason. Anyone know if his audience shrank and dried up to blow away in the wind or is he still kicking about insisting he’s going to be a billionaire someday? (Because we all know that if you’re really seeking the truth of reality and to expose that truth to others, getting rich off that should be your primary concern).

  60. AR

    What I mean is, social media is so massive that it renders ” normal ” damn near invisible.

    I’ve lived smack in the middle of ” counter culture ” before, and it was massive without social media – hence it was never truly homogenized the way everything is today.

    There are tangible reasons why we are inundated with suicides, mass shootings and ” The Gay LGBTBBQ ” when we were not before. This shit is driving way too many people stark raving mad.

    The only way I knew what some dude in L.A. was thinking about anything was a) if I knew him personally, and b) If I picked up a phone and called him or wrote him a letter. Now everyone has to hear what everyone else thinks about everything all the time, all over the planet. For way too many people, this is what they consider ” life “.

  61. “So, while this topic deals with grifters and an increasing number of would-be bandwagon hopping get-rich guys leveraging the burgeoning size of the Manosphere for profit…what’s the latest status of the delusion narcissist Pipe Dream Johnson?”

    Johnson is following The Formula.

    The Manosphere started out organic, and he’s trying to monetize and brand it. In order to maximize profitability, the ” sphere ” has to be sanitized for mass consumption.

    Oh yeah, women must be included because ( current year ).

  62. Blaximus
    What I mean is, social media is so massive that it renders ” normal ” damn near invisible.

    Lol, I used to know this guy who insisted that social media didn’t mean much because he didn’t do it and his woman didn’t do it and so there. Or something like that.

    I’ve lived smack in the middle of ” counter culture ” before, and it was massive without social media – hence it was never truly homogenized the way everything is today.

    So “things are different now”, is that what you’re saying?

    There are tangible reasons why we are inundated with suicides, mass shootings and ” The Gay LGBTBBQ ” when we were not before.

    Numbers, man, numbers. Are mass shooting really way up, or is it just the saturation coverage that’s way up? Ditto for “teh ghey”, is there more if it or is it just shoved into people’s faces more than before?

    This shit is driving way too many people stark raving mad.

    Well, ok, no argument there.

    The only way I knew what some dude in L.A. was thinking about anything was a) if I knew him personally, and b) If I picked up a phone and called him or wrote him a letter. Now everyone has to hear what everyone else thinks about everything all the time, all over the planet. For way too many people, this is what they consider ” life “.

    Huh. So YaReally actually had a point about social media’s effects on people, specifically girls, after all?

  63. Blaximus
    Oh yeah, women must be included because ( current year ).

    Lol. Pretty much.
    Branding! Gotta keep The Brand fresh!

    Hey, hey, maybe he can recruit Julian and the new Mrs. Julian? Wife-Life Coaching!
    Worked so well for Athol Kay.

  64. AR

    I has 2 biological daughters, 1 stepdaughter.

    ” Huh. So YaReally actually had a point about social media’s effects on people, specifically girls, after all?”

    Nah, yareally had a very different point ( ALL girls have 10,000 orbiters and fly off to Dubai to get pissed on by wealthy princes…blah, blah , blah…). He always missed a vital point – that this stuff is not real – and that was and is my point.

    Exaggerating how everyone gets what they want via social media is not correct. Girls have always had the choice to have as much sex as they wanted to.

    And it’s not just girls. Guys are getting fucked up by this shit as well. How many times ( even today ) has a man waltzed in here mentioning Tinder, Bumble, ( name dating site )??? It’s consistent, and it’s still not real, but people can’t seem to just leave it alone and live life.

    So, ” life ” goes away.

    Most of this stuff is fake and filled with bullshit, amd people can’t seem to just leave it be.

    YaReally bought into it as well. He wasn’t quite mature enough to know better in a lot of ways.

    So now we have cyber bullying and depression and yes, mass shootings that are increasing.

    Like ISIS, dudes are laeving videos ( on social media ) and manifestos and shit like that.

    What is helping to drive this? Why is so much of it similar?

    Social media makes younger folks anti social. Fin. That’s all that’s happening. Too much screen time and not enough life. So of course, guys have a harder time. Everyone’s stuff gets stupid and complicated if they follow and stay brainwashed.

    But, what do I know/

  65. Blaixmus
    I has 2 biological daughters, 1 stepdaughter.

    Right, while the homeschooling families I know of have 4+ children in their counter-cultural subculture — but you judge them to be “not enough”, right?

    Lol.

    Nah, yareally had a very different point ( ALL girls have 10,000 orbiters and fly off to Dubai to get pissed on by wealthy princes…blah, blah , blah…). He always missed a vital point – that this stuff is not real – and that was and is my point.

    That was one of his more exaggerated points, but not the only one.

    Exaggerating how everyone gets what they want via social media is not correct.

    Now you’re reverting to 2016, and you were doing so well catching up to the current year, too. What does “not correct” even mean in this context?

    “Not a good idea”, yeah, ok.
    “not really happening” –bzzt, you yourself were just fussing about why should you be bothered to learn what some man in California did yestera.

    Most of this stuff is fake and filled with bullshit, amd people can’t seem to just leave it be.

    That was one of YaReally’s points.It’s been one of my points. Good to see you catching up.
    The other day I read an article of “advice for parents of college first year students” that a friend of mine received via email.

    “Contact your student no more than once per day” – lol, really? Ya think? YaReally Mom should put her helicopter in the garage.

    Also a longer text that basically boiled down to “Don’t stalk your student on social media”.

    We don’t fullly understand the longer term effects of this 24 / 7 panopticon, where a man talks to a girl at the student union and not only does she text her besties she may well put something up on her Insta and Snap. People are living in a goldfish bowl and some don’t even realize it.

    Want to play with age demographic? Ask people over 50 if they have smartphones -some don’t – and then ask them if they have location services turned on. In my social circle maybe 1 / 3 do not turn on location.

    Ask the same question of people under 30. My experience is that 100% of people under 30 I’ve asked have invited Apple or Google to track them. They don’t understand that data is stored and never goes away, or they say they don’t care.

    Bonus: I know parents of teenagers who have tracking apps. Their handset keeps track of the handsets of their teens via location services. So when son & daughter go to the football game on Friday night, Mom can and is watching her phone screen to know if they really went to the stadium, and what route they took.

    I honestly do not know what effect that has. Maybe minimal. But it sure makes helicotering easy, and I wonder if Mom is going to turn it off when sonny boy moves out of the house.

    Modern stuff is strange.

  66. Author here. Currently writing a story that has a matriarchy as the political structure. I’m looking to discuss with this community ideas and possible problems with my premise. Anyone interested?

  67. “OT
    GirlsDoPorn getting sued, with one of their stars listed by name.”

    not even close to OT.

    dude was trying to get a gf in the modern marketplace…

    “Monday, a judge denied Girls Do Porn’s filing to “stay,” or halt, the civil trial in the wake of the federal charges.”

    oops. now he fights criminal and civil cases simultaneously lol

    all the cash he made in pron now goes to lawyers

    and his actual cost per lay when it’s all over is perfectly indicative of his place in sexual hierarchy

    he thought he could buy a sex slave…

    now he charged with sex trafficking lol

    unqualified dudes trying to take shortcuts will be punished

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