The Reconstruction IV

head_hitting

The Red Pill shows you the dark side of women. Not so that you will hate them but so you appreciate them for what they are, not what they’re not.

I think one of the harder aspects of the Red Pill for men who get awakened-while-married (or while monogamous) to accept is the disillusionment of their Blue Pill idealism about women confirmed for them in the behavior and mindsets of their wives. Breaking the Blue Pill ego-investments of single men who unplug is a difficult task, but their investment risk in women (real or imagined) they believe might make acceptable long-term mates is far less than a man who’s been married for more than 4 or 5 years.

For the single Red Pill guy with the option to simply walk away from a less than optimal situation, his conflict becomes one of potentials and weighing them against his Blue Pill ideals – ideals his unplugging should rid him of. His struggles is one about the “what ifs” and disabusing himself of the scarcity mentality that the Blue Pill has conditioned him for. While Hypergamy inherently instills in women a persistent doubt about a man’s quality, the Blue Pill instills in men a doubt about “quality” women’s scarcity and his capacity to find and maintain a ‘soul mate‘.

However for married men, with a considerable amount of emotional, social, financial and familial investment at stake in his marriage, there’s a natural resistance that comes in the form of denial. What’s tough is that, within this initial state of denial, a husband accepts the Red Pill truths about women and then has those truths confirmed for him by the woman he’s been sleeping next to for a number of years. All of the awareness about men and women’s differing concepts of love, the truth of women’s Hypergamously motivated opportunism, her confirming her open Hypergamy, all of the events that led up to his committing himself in marriage to her while he was still effectively Blue Pill – all of that gets confirmed for him when he puts into practice the concepts he learns from the Red Pill.

For all of the ‘anger’ that profiteering critics would like to wipe off on Red Pill thought, that anger finds its base in men’s confirming their own role in what was (or would’ve been) a life-long strategy for him to fulfill the dictates of women’s Hypergamy as well as the larger scope of the Feminine Imperative. When we put this into the perspective of a married man who unplugs, you can see why this is such a threat to the imperative. That man must reassess his life from the position of his being an unwitting participant in his Blue Pill conditioning, but furthermore, he becomes a constant caution, a warning, for men who have yet to make the same uneducated decisions he has.

There is nothing more depressing to me than to listen to a married man parrot back all of the tropes the Feminine Imperative has taught him to repeat about why he’s in the subservient role in his marriage. These are the guys who’ll laughingly tell single men how they must “clear everything with the Boss” before they are allowed (or will allow themselves) to participate in anything remotely masculine or self-entertaining. These are the men who prattle about their ‘honey-do’ lists, the men who count themselves fortunate to have such a ‘great wife’ who’ll allow him to watch hockey or football on a weekend. I wrote a more detailed post about these men in The Abdication Imperative.

These husbands are depressing to me because, in their Blue Pill ignorance, they represent the summation of their roles according to the strategies of the Feminine Imperative. They’ll gladly White Knight for their wives’ right to the Frame of their marriage (under the pretense of equalism). They’ll laugh and commiserate with other husbands sharing their position of powerlessness-but-with-all-accountability. They’ll chirp with funny little Facebook memes that share their ridiculous, married state, but for all of that acquiescing to their ‘fates’ what they really represent is the goal-state of men in the Feminine Imperative’s plan for their lives.

Men generally come to the realization of their appointed role at some point in their lives. Whether it’s Red Pill awareness or coming to a mid life crisis epiphany, men get ‘woke’ in some respect. The few who don’t are men whose existence literally depends on their not coming to terms with how the Blue Pill has made them what/who they are. The most common way for men to come into this awareness has been that mid-life epiphany, but in order for men to reconcile that awareness with maintaining a comfortable sense of self they become the men I describe in The Abdication Imperative. They really don’t know anything else but what the Blue Pill has created them to be, so they go into denial and add some self-deprecating humor to it to cope with the dissonance of knowing they’ve been played by the Feminine Imperative for the better part of their lives. So you get the ‘Yes Dear’ husbands; the men who realize the truth too late, but that same scarcity mentality forces them to go along to get along.

The rise of Red Pill awareness of intersexual dynamics on the internet has made for a community of men who find this denial distasteful. Rather than abdicate to the imperative and their wife’s Frame they look to the Red Pill and Game for a remedy to that state. Sometimes that’s getting their wives to have sex with them more frequently or they’re looking to better themselves in a Red Pill context to gain women’s (their wives’) respect. As I’ve mentioned many times before, the Red Pill represents a threat to the Feminine Imperative keeping men ignorant of their roles in women’s Hypergamous plans. Now that threat comes to fruition in the context of men’s marriages.

One way or another, men will become aware of their role, how that man goes about dealing with it is another story. Most (being Blue Pill) abdicate and accept their powerlessness in their relationships. It’s the other men who choose not to just cope, but to reconstruct themselves that the Red Pill will have answers for.

Break Up with Your Wife

Not too long ago in various comment threads on this blog readers had a discussion about how any marriage (at least in the contemporary sense) is always founded on a Beta status for the husband. I don’t entirely agree with that assessment, but considering how the large majority of marriages are the culmination of Blue Pill conditioned men fulfilling their role as cuckolded provider for women cashing out of the sexual marketplace it’s certainly an understandable presumption. I won’t elaborate too much on the particulars, but the very act of committing to a woman monogamously implies a man (even one with an Alpha persona) is leaning towards a Beta perception. Alpha’s don’t commit to anyone but themselves, Betas are eager to commit from necessity and scarcity. The act becomes the confirmation.

If we follow this binary logic, the only solution to a man’s condition within his marriage – the only way to institute a real change – is to reject and break that commitment. Personally, I have lived out what most men would envy in my marriage for over 20 years now, so the idea of leaving Mrs. Tomassi would only seem like a good idea if I weren’t satisfied sexually, psychologically and life-wise with her. But, as I always repeat, don’t use my marriage as a benchmark. There was a point where I needed to break up with her, if only by adopting my own mental point of origin above that of hers or women in general as my own Blue Pill conditioning would expect of me.

I mentioned in the beginning of this series that married (committed) men seeking to reconstruct themselves within that context ought to read the post for the Iron Rule of Tomassi #7:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #7
It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was.

I mention this as a starting point because when you’re making the decision to reconstruct yourself you must ‘do it for you’. Once again, any real change always beggars the question about who you’re really changing for. Nothing is an act of unguided, unbiased, self-initiated change – there is always some ancillary influences as well as consequences. This is the crisis of motive.

However, if you find yourself awakened-while-married and you want to remake yourself, know that this change must be for yourself and not for your wife. This decision to reconstruct your life, your persona, your belief set, etc., and reject what the Blue Pill has made of you must come as a result of making yourself your mental point of origin. This ‘new you’ precludes any consideration of your wife’s interests. It must be in order for your transformation to be genuine to both yourself and those who know the ‘old’ you. As I mentioned in the last installment, the likelihood of your wife accepting your new persona is dependent on what Frame you entered that relationship with as well as what you’ve surrendered of your self-respect to her.

This is the most difficult part for Blue Pill men wanting to reconstruct themselves. Their mental point of origin doesn’t change, they want to change because they want to be “more Alpha” for their wives, not themselves. The idea is to adopt just enough Alpha that their wives turn the sex spigot back on for them, but never really internalize the Red Pill to the point that is fundamentally changes who they are. Thus, it becomes an act not unlike newbie PUAs aping the behaviors of their mentors, but never internalizing the deeper meanings of why they work or making them part of ‘who’ they are as a person.

This is what kills a man’s reconstruction before it ever starts. That change must be a self-first proposition. Your Red Pill self-work must be intrinsically rewarding because there is absolutely no guarantee that a man’s wife / girlfriend will ever reimagine him from a different perspective. Particularly if that woman entered into that marriage/LTR because she’d hoped to maintain Frame indefinitely due to him abdicating to it.

You must become Red Pill aware for the sake of knowing the larger truth, internalize it and then apply it without the pretense of believing it can be used to achieve Blue Pill ideals.

With this in mind, you must presume that you are breaking up with your wife / girlfriend. It is far better to approach your reconstruction from the idea that the Red Pill you would likely have nothing to do with a woman like your wife. If you were single man, Red Pill aware and Game savvy, would you even approach your wife knowing what you do now about her personally as well as what you know about the Feminine Imperative and how it influences her?

Your reconstruction requires a radical shift that is only possible for you by breaking up with your LTR, at least in a subconscious respect. It is important to assess what, if anything, is worth rooting through garbage for. If you approach your reconstruction by first making yourself your mental point of origin, the next step is to assume you will be breaking up with your wife. It may never come to that, but this is the gravity with which a man must come to his reconstruction. The same reasoning I mention in Rooting through Garbage applies to your reconstruction:

Even if you could go back to where you were, any relationship you might have with an ex will be colored by all of the issues that led up to the breakup. In other words, you know what the end result of those issues has been. It will always be the 800 pound. gorilla in the room in any future relationship. As I elaborated in the Desire Dynamic, healthy relationships are founded on genuine mutual desire, not a list of negotiated terms and obligations, and this is, by definition, exactly what any post-breakup relationship necessitates. You or she may promise to never do something again, you may promise to “rebuild the trust”, you may promise to be someone else, but you cannot promise to accept that the issues leading up to the breakup don’t have the potential to dissolve it again. The doubt is there. You may be married for 30 years, but there will always be that one time when you two broke up, or she fucked that other guy, and everything you think you’ve built with her over the years will always be compromised by that doubt of her desire.

You will never escape her impression that you were so optionless you had to beg her to rekindle her intimacy with you.

It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. This is the same rationale you will need to adopt when you transition into a new Red Pill aware persona. This is necessary because once you’ve become aware there is no going back to that previous state of ignorance. You will know what can be possible with or without your wife/LTR.

Thus, it is important to zero everything out and treat your old wife as a new prospective woman. This perspective may mean she becomes someone not worth your effort, but it might also mean she likes the prospect of a new husband. This may mean she too will have to undertake some kind of transformation in relating to a Red Pill aware husband, or it might be that this is something she never foresaw. Dread works best when a man understands the Cardinal Rule of Relationships: In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

By adopting the mindset that you are breaking up with her you reclaim this power – you have nothing to lose and have no way of going back to unknowing the Red Pill awareness you have now. For single men I often point out that breaking up with a girl is one of the best ways to demonstrate higher value (DHV). The downside to that is that by the time you get to the point of leaving DHV isn’t what you really care about. For the reconstructing man, adopting the position that you are breaking up (or have broken up) harnesses some of this DHV.

Most women (wives) will interpret your new self-importance as some kind of phase or your reclaiming your independence (rather than her co-dependence) as some childish sulking behavior. Anticipate this. She will presume you’re ‘going your own way’ within the marriage to force her to fuck you more or to get her to comply with your Frame. This is to be expected, but watch what her initial reactions to your takeaway are. This will give you an insight into how she perceives you. If you’re predominantly Beta her response will be that you’re pouting or sulking by removing your attention. If she sees you as Alpha her response will be much more serious and you’ll get the “what’s wrong baby?” reaction. This is a good starting point in determining her genuine perception of you.

You will effectively be NEXTing your wife so be prepared for her post-NEXTing behavior-set (extinction burst behavior) in the same way you would if you dropped a plate. This will be a tough transition for men who have invested themselves emotionally in their wives. You’ll want to come back to that place of comfort, but always remember that place is one of disrespect and sexlessness.

Most men will go half-way in their reconstruction and this is usually the result of having played a game of relationship ‘chicken’. They have their bluff called because it was always a bluff to them – they never made themselves their mental point of origin so they go back to the safety of their Blue Pill disrespect. Their wives respond to the takeaway of their attention, but never really connect with being attracted to his new self-respect and self-importance. Once that woman even marginally steps up her sexual frequency – motivated by her wanting him to return to her Frame – the guy gets comfortable and wants to go back to his comfy wife while feeling validated by thinking he made a genuine change that she responded to.

You must go all the way. If you don’t, the next time you attempt to exercise your Red Pill awareness in the hope that she’ll accept the new you, you’ll be that much more laughable to her. In fact, you’ll only further cement her perception of your whiny Beta status. The first time it’s Dread, the second time it’s you being pissy.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

470 comments on “The Reconstruction IV

  1. boxcar
    @Insanity has a good response to Marko here.

    LOL, no, not really. Marco’s an aging blue-pilled man who stinks of TradCon and Bites is an aging, misandric, 2nd stage feminist. Bites has been a fountain of hate for men for years, Marco looks like someone who has been here before under a different name…or two…but neither one of them has men’s interests at heart.

    Marco’s clearly all about appeasing women, and Bites just wants to chivvy male slaves back onto the plantation, as all feminists and most women tend to do.

    Frankly not sure what your point is, aside from trying to cozy up to the only clearly identified female. That right there is why The Spearhead tended to be men-only…to keep White Knighting out of the picture.

  2. @Anonymous Reader

    Hear, hear.

    They are engaged fully in mental masturbation (Engaging in attempted intellectually stimulating conversation with little or no practical purpose.)

    Superfluous ideas to the flow at hand.

  3. “….Bites is an aging, misandric, 2nd stage feminist. Bites has been a fountain of hate for men for years…”

    Sigh. Where’s your cool indifference, your amused mastery, your complete lack of concern about what Mrs Bytes says? I seem to be living rent free in your head, something that’s rather amusing, but it tends to just project fear and insecurity on your part. Also, jealousy. I keep asking if you’re a broken and wounded female, because you come across exactly like one.

    IB has never been a 2nd stage feminist, you’re thinking of my mother. Wrong generation. Nor have I ever been a “fountain of hate for men,” in fact the precise opposite, as in I have tended to always err in the other direction. To err is to know the Divine buttercup, so get over yourself.

  4. “Breaking the Blue Pill ego-investments of single men who unplug is a difficult task, but their investment risk in women (real or imagined) they believe might make acceptable long-term mates is far less than a man who’s been married for more than 4 or 5 years.”

    I get what you mean if it is because some men who are married for a few years have a harder time accepting reality and letting go of their mental investment, however delusional it may be. However, for most men today, I believe it is a bit different. Most are faced with a choice and they know it. I cannot imagine a man being married for several years, certainly for a decade, who has not had enough experience to at least begin to seriously question his blue pill expectations. From this perspective, the experienced man should be more likely to accept red pill reality than the single man, and begin to apply its truth to his life. But, some cling to fantasy more ardently as reality stares them more intently in the face. Sometimes the more blatant the truth is, the faster some run from it. It is up to each individual man how he envisions himself……or if he envisions himself at all. Perhaps the most liberated are those of us who have no self concern whatsoever to the extent that we need no self image, no self envisioned persona, no imagined pretense of what we want to be, or think we should become. After all, aren’t such preoccupations of self merely theatrical deviations from what one “thinks one is” compared to what one thinks one should be, both being erroneously constructed by conditioning? The truly liberated aren’t concerned with self other than how the real world affects the self. Action is the manifestation of freedom. The liberated are outward looking, not inwardly analytical. Those who doubt their own authority over themselves always seek approval from others and fear the rules of social construct. Those who cannot disconnect and be free, cannot because they are concerned with how they fit into the social matrix. They value the matrix rules and constructs more than they value themselves, taking action based on personal conviction and any truly honorable relationships with others. This is why those who are most respected and admired are consistently the ones who forge new paths, create and institute real change. The greater the odds overcome, the greater the admiration and respect. Those of us who are truly liberated, are free to use this social matrix to our advantage. The matrix exists regardless, and everyone operates in relation to it. Real freedom is purely an individual choice. Freedom is purely an individual personal prerogative. If this were not true, there would be no such thing as freedom. The nature of each individual relationship to the matrix is up to each individual alone. Most are its slaves, a few are its masters. This has always been, is, and always will be.

  5. Back to the OP
    Once that woman even marginally steps up her sexual frequency – motivated by her wanting him to return to her Frame – the guy gets comfortable and wants to go back to his comfy wife while feeling validated by thinking he made a genuine change that she responded to.

    This is a key insight, it’s a restating of what Rollo and others have said over and over again, so naturally I’ll restate it a little bit different way. Here is the question each man must ask himself regarding what he’s doing:

    Why am I doing this? Is this what I should be doing?

    Sometimes when I supervise entry level people I try to give them this as a kind of self-reminder mantra: there’s always something that needs doing, maybe just sweeping a sidewalk, but look around. Ask “What am I doing, why am I doing it, is this what I’m supposed to be doing?”

    In the Red Pill / Glasses context it gets to be a sticky question. Because the man in the OP paragraph above is just doing stuff to get laid (irony: some men in this mode will crap all over PUA’s for being “pussy hounds”), which is not bad in and of itself but it’s a short term goal. We all know that making sexytime the sole goal isn’t sexy in the mid term.

    Plus that mindset leads, as Rollo notes, to backsliding. I would bet it works that way every time.
    Minor improvment -> small improvement in bedroom -> slacking -> bedroom quality declines.

    HABD’s insight into the guard-dog spinup is very important here, because in a way this kind of “get a little better, slack off” is to a woman’s hindbrain like cock-teasing is to a man. It will become a source of anger sooner or later.

    tl;dr : I’m not the first man to point out that Why a man is doing something can be more important than what he’s actually doing. Doing stuff to please a woman in order to get sex from her is strictly short term mode.

  6. A BP man has a midlife crisis. A RP man has a midlife epiphany.

    I did a bunch of the MMSL MAP stuff but two of the most effective things that helped me after nearly 25 years of marriage were 1) not being afraid of making my wife mad and 2) mentally getting to an acceptance that I could happily live without her. The latter is a huge deal for men who believe in the Disney commitment but once you get there it is truly freeing.

  7. If you are married, frame is all you have. Frame is not enough IMO. Maybe for some…Rollo, Dalrock, etc., but for many….maybe even most, frame is not enough. Frame is not real power. It is persuasion…..persuading some else to let you keep your own money and your own children. It is not power. Marriage is a contract, not a lifelong, one-sided courtship. For men, modern marriage is a bad deal…by design. Protect your rights, protect your freedom, protect your power. Nobody else will.

  8. “The Red Pill shows you the dark side of women. Not so that you will hate them but so you appreciate them for what they are, not what they’re not.”

    Perhaps “shows you women qua women” is truer. She ain’t dark when she willingly follows you into light too, you see? It was always me, not her.

    “…a husband accepts the Red Pill truths about women and then has those truths confirmed for him by the woman he’s been sleeping next to for a number of years.”

    The truth is I dropped the ball…and she’d been waiting for me to pick it back up and run the field…when I want all in.

    “The few who don’t are men whose existence literally depends on their not coming to terms with how the Blue Pill has made them what/who they are.”

    The majority of men in my health care profession will see no other option than submitting to the HR/FI diktats, ultimately auto-emasculating.

    “The rise of Red Pill awareness of intersexual dynamics on the internet has made for a community of men who find this denial distasteful.”

    I go one further. The FI must be ground into fine paste, if only with those closest to you.

    “Alpha’s don’t commit to anyone but themselves…”

    Themselves, even through a legacy of RP children.

    RP: My 16 y.o. oldest went all in today at a school dance. Naturally analytical, gravitated to the polite quiet academics. He had enough RP talk, PUA and manosphere listicle preparation. He blew into the dance, cocky collared shirt, as class president took control of the MC duties, spoke only in AMOG parlance (“Yo fags.” “Stop being gay.” “Dildo.” “You, honey. Come with me.”) Busting popular kids, tactfully teasing teachers, dragging the spergy literally by the cuff of the neck to the dance floor, pushing everyone to fetch a girl, going from pod to pod of girls, picking the cutest of the clutch and pulling her out to dance with him…some even away from the bf’s. Guess what? Every girl followed, he got all six girls to willingly type their numbers into his phone…and the “popular” guys fist bumped him winding the place up.

    I quote: “Now I can’t go back, Dad…and why would I want to?”

    This is what I’m committed to. High fives around!

    “There was a point where I needed to break up with her…”

    As a BP ideal.

    “If you were single man, Red Pill aware and Game savvy, would you even approach your wife knowing what you do now about her personally as well as what you know about the Feminine Imperative and how it influences her?”

    Knowing now what I do…yeah. Why? I control the destiny of this relationship, the future of at least 6 people…probably many more. She’s never wanted anything less than all alpha, all the time, anyways. I ain’t no Genghis Khan but I’m making it go.

    “This may mean she too will have to undertake some kind of transformation in relating to a Red Pill aware husband, or it might be that this is something she never foresaw.”

    Six weeks ago Mrs. EhIntellect started researching my none-to-concealed attempts to teach RP/TRM to my boys. Guess what? She read BP Professor, next to TRM, ended up in the comment sections…and in a couple weeks figured out my nom-de-plume.

    That was a hairy week. I knew she knew, knew it was better than living cloak-and-dagger, and I was coolly waiting it out. Denying fight club was living in her frame, hurting us both.

    Guess what? Rollo’s posts thoroughly knocked her personal, marriage, religious beliefs into question. This is no less than what I wanted. There was no need to tell her anything. She did my work for her which was better for us both. Acta non Verba.

    Yeah, she’s still processing a lot, but her existence is now no less altered that the awakened RP guy.

    Am I a kid with dynamite? Yeah, probably. Feel free to tear this up, but ultimately here I am, still commenting on TRM with my happy wife fully aware of it all.

    As SJF often says, wives will appreciate the reconstruction too. Well, hell. So it is!

    “Most women (wives) will interpret your new self-importance as some kind of phase or your reclaiming your independence (rather than her co-dependence) as some childish sulking behavior.”

    She had thought I lost my mind, no mid-life crisis. I was mentally ill.

    “Most men will go half-way in their reconstruction…”

    I was stuck in PUA, until it was limiting me. Lazing works…until it doesn’t…and she tests even that…until the lazing is authentic…and (as Forge the Sky long ago described) the lazing shows an undeniable “fierce desire to fuck”. No dark arts, no trickery, all DPA. All in, all the time, always and in all ways.

    “You must go all the way.”

    Exactly. Thanks again all. FUCK YEAH!!

    Take that FI bitch.

    @ Sentient

    re: Marko and passivity.

    He reminds me of Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms: “Hier stehe, ich kann nicht anders”

    That’ll help a marriage. Good luck with that.

  9. “This will give you an insight into how she perceives you. If you’re predominantly Beta her response will be that you’re pouting or sulking by removing your attention. If she sees you as Alpha her response will be much more serious and you’ll get the “what’s wrong baby?” reaction. This is a good starting point in determining her genuine perception of you.” I was going to ask a question about this as my woman’s response was to my manifesting my fully conscious RP awareness was along the lines of “…are you happy?”. But then a second later I also realized that I just don’t really care about what her past perceptions were. I know where I am going now with my mission, and that is all that matters.

  10. EhIntellect: “As SJF often says, wives will appreciate the reconstruction too. Well, hell. So it is!”

    Rollo in OP:

    Most women (wives) will interpret your new self-importance as some kind of phase or your reclaiming your independence (rather than her co-dependence) as some childish sulking behavior. Anticipate this. She will presume you’re ‘going your own way’ within the marriage to force her to fuck you more or to get her to comply with your Frame. This is to be expected, but watch what her initial reactions to your takeaway are. This will give you an insight into how she perceives you. If you’re predominantly Beta her response will be that you’re pouting or sulking by removing your attention. If she sees you as Alpha her response will be much more serious and you’ll get the “what’s wrong baby?” reaction. This is a good starting point in determining her genuine perception of you.

    EhIntellect: “She had thought I lost my mind, no mid-life crisis. I was mentally ill.”

    I didn’t say that wives or girlfriends will appreciate the Reconstruction cognitively (or didn’t mean to). They often won’t at first. Their power over the Beta is diminished. “If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her.”–IM Maxim #26.

    I said (or meant to say) that they are better off for you reconstructing yourself with red pill awareness and competent mastery of Game

    The above quotes said as maxims:

    Illimitable Man MAXIM #85 – “Ignore what she says, watch what she does. Women lie with incredible frequency. Combine this with solipsism devoid of self-awareness, and you do not have someone whose words bear any relation to reality. Corollary: don’t mention the red pill to women, just practice it. They will hate the ideas, but love the effects.

    IM MAXIM #26: “If she is with a submissive man, she prioritises her happiness. If she is with a dominant man, she prioritises his. With the dominant man, making him happy makes her happy. The submissive man’s happiness has no such effect, so she deems it irrelevant.”

    IM MAXIM #87 – “Women are perpetual adolescents. Women mistake confidence and preferences with maturity, but such things are neither. Assertiveness is not maturity. Maturity is measured by the level of responsibility one can assume, as well as the capacity to sufficiently cope with the pressure that said responsibility entails. Women perform poorly on both metrics in comparison to their male counterparts.”

    Often times WTF is Risky, but necessary, Business:

    Miles: Sometimes you gotta say “What the Fuck”, make your move. Joel, every now and then, saying “What the Fuck”, brings freedom. Freedom brings opportunity, opportunity makes your future. So your parents are going out of town. You got the place all to yourself.

    Joel Goodson: Yeah.

    Miles: What the fuck.

  11. I’m laughing so hard I can barely control myself. Ya gotta watch this video from Roosh. First, check out the beard, is he a Taliban now? He sure sounds like one. Second, look at his dead eyes. The look of a man who knows he’s run out his string. Third, look what he says in the last bit “I know I’m a nice guy” or some shit. How being a PUA was a reaction to a world gone amok.
    He’s also so angry, he really does sound like some Muslim nutbag, just not railing about Allah.

    I think most here will at least chuckle at what a loser he’s ended up being too…I do relish it though, as in his case it’s all due to hubris. He shut out those who would have set him straight long ago. So fuck him, he’s getting a well-deserved comeuppance. It’s kind of like Anthony Weiner getting federal child porn charges, after being perhaps the most obnoxious, rude leftist politician in history – i’m sorry, just the thought of him doing 10 years hard time, max security, genpop, well, yeah. He’s earned a good ass-raping. Maybe that will finally shut him up. Ditto for Roosh, he was so arrogant about many things he doesn’t even really understand (economics and history and political philosophy to name 3), he deserves his fall. He focused his life solely on fucking women, and woke up and found it empty – shocker to exactly nobody.

    Now he’s a cult huckster, building a brand and his “tribe” (read Seth Godin, he’s following the Seth Godin marketing model to a tee), and will squeeze them with book sales. I mean look at him, the dramatic silent long pause at the end, and then the commitment to take on changing the world, lol – from where? His Mom’s basement? Some cheap shit hostel in Bulgaria? And don’t think I’m taking cheap shots, he admitted many times to living with his mother or father when he wasn’t in some eastern Euro country.

    This is a man who other men would follow? Would listen to? Some half-smart man-child? I get it, he’s good at pickup in a certain setting – by his own admission he can’t get laid in Western clubs anymore…What a fucking joke.

    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-oXLuSlKqM&w=560&h=315%5D

  12. “Second, look at his dead eyes. The look of a man who knows he’s run out his string. Third, look what he says in the last bit “I know I’m a nice guy” or some shit. How being a PUA was a reaction to a world gone amok.

    He’s also so angry, he really does sound like some Muslim nutbag, just not railing about Allah.”

    The world is out to get him. You can see it in his Sanpaku eyes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanpaku

    “Paranoid? Probably. But just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean there isn’t an invisible demon about to eat your face.”
    ― Jim Butcher, Storm Front

  13. @SJF. Do you have any clear update on how Deida is doing now? The last book I read of his,
    The Way of the Superior Man (1997), his process was leading him to venture into open marriage.
    How is his Long Game going? We can learn from other’s experiences.

  14. I have no idea. Nor do I really care. My journey is self focused. And I can discriminate and interpret the message for that journey.

    He was being descriptive about the true natures of men and woman including their desires that they act out on inter-sexual relationships.

    Authors can write great stuff, and yet follow weird outcomes in their life. Roosh’s Bang was great, Athol Kays books were a unique and good distillation of married manosphere topics, Neil Strauss was a great writer, Tucker Max was entertaining (no, wait, his book was shitty, self aggrandizing and wildly unbelievable….).

    I can’t tell you what Doestoyevski did with his life either, but he wrote some great stuff.

    It’s the content of his writings and his experience of a lot other intersexual relationships in his counseling and seminars were pretty illustritive of essential human natures.

    I felt a queasyness in my stomach when I first read TWSM a long time ago, when I was at my best in my performance as a man and my wife was betatizing me, being a female with young kids. After my red pill awareness and game implementation, it made all the sense in the world and resonated with me. I was more mature and she kept her value and the understanding of the principles made all the sense in the world.

    The idea of keeping masculine/feminine polarity in today’s equalist world with feminine social primacy is indispensible for the Red Pill.

    His Intimate Communion book (which I nominate for the worst title ever, right up there with Athol Kay titles, most likely not to be carried around in public) is really quite excellent in the three levels of aspiration for men. (which are not trinary, but stepping stones). When I read that book, it makes me want to re-title it “The Way of Blaximus” for the way it espouses fearlessness and freedom obtained from being your true self with a balance of Doing (in your burden of performance) and Being (being in the moment and enjoying yourself in life which is beautiful).

    So I say it’s good stuff if it resonates.

    Changing the subject, back to Dominance and Submission and Masculine and Feminine roles, @Markos, check out yesterdays essay by Illimitable Man and tell me what you think of it. In light of what you have discussed here recently.

    https://illimitablemen.com/2017/02/05/dominance-and-submission/

    1.) Introduction:

    It hardly feels worthy of mention, because it comes as naturally to one’s self as a sky of blue or a blade of green grass, yet in our age of dystopic social engineering and decadent artifice, it appears controversial that healthy romantic relationships between men and women take on a dominant-submissive dynamic.

    In a culture of toxic femininity in which the feminine is made primary, the natural and healthy role of man and woman has been perverted to the extent the mere idea of man leading his woman is deemed offensive, if not at the very least backward and regressive in its stance. The intelligentsia of our time, ever unenlightened as they are, have placed their chips on the pillars of equality and obstinately refuse to re-evaluate the foolishness of their pseudo-progressiveness.

    2.) The Dancing Metaphor:

    Dancing has been used ritualistically as a preliminary step to courtship since time immemorial, the dance itself serving as little more than a finessed way of ascertaining a man’s ability to take charge and a woman’s to follow. Now imagine if a couple were silly enough to think that neither partner should lead nor follow, owing to their shared belief that equality negates a need for hierarchy. If their roles as dance partners was not identical, they would inhabit a state of inequality. But because dancing requires a leader and a follower, and our fellow dancers do not believe in inequality, they would quite simply fail to dance! The absurdity of their beliefs would, effectively, render them incapable of dancing.

    Extrapolating this to the dating market of today, much of the general dissatisfaction and unhappiness we see stems from this belief, or at the very least the incapacity for one or either sex to fulfil their roles as dominant and submissive. Be it that the man is an ineffectual and submissive “leader,” or the woman is an insolent, ball-busting sham of a “follower”. Neither is good relationship material for the other and neither will do, for although dominance and submission is necessary for a relationship to take place, a woman’s love is based upon respect, and her inability to respect a man she has been burdened to lead will ultimately conclude in her loss of love for him.

    As such, it falls to man to lead, not to woman, for no matter how much the feminine ego may covet leadership, it is spiritually, emotionally, mentally and psychologically incapable of maintaining the dynamic in a mutually enjoyable and unexploitative fashion. It is within the narcissism and insecurity of women brainwashed by feminism who are uncomfortable in their femininity that we hear the cries of execration denouncing masculine authority, and yet ironically it is within the petty jealousy of this infantilism she lies completely oblivious to the fact that leadership is not all fun and games, but a burden, and a cumbersome one at that.

    A dance in its physical elements foreshadows the optimal dynamic that should take place mentally and emotionally when man and woman couples; as such, dancing, much like relationships, is about complementation. The tyrannical social engineers through their inversion of values have our populace thinking that for a man to be dominant and lead his woman is to oppress her, and that her consequential submissive following of him is tantamount to enslavement, but in matters of intersexual dynamics these connotations are incorrect and misplaced.

    3.) O Equality, Wherefore Art Thou Equality?:

    As per feminist sociocultural influence, there has been a normalisation of the rather perverse paradigm in which the woman leads, or each party is somehow “equal” in the most intangible, esoteric and subjectivist of unquantifiable manners. And be it that this supposed equality is defined by the sentiment of the believer, who even knows what it looks like beyond the figment of the wildest imagination, for equality is a fiction, and all romantic relationships are hierarchically contingent upon a leader-follower dynamic to take form and function.

    Indeed this absurd idea that each party is equal to the other, that nobody leads nor follows, but rather that each makes proposals to the other and that such a thing somehow works is a dysfunctional, pervasive memetic. The absence of hierarchy is chaos, and thus to aim for and idealise equality is to promote and usher in chaos. It is inconceivable to think how one could reach consensus within a democracy of two, for one must eventually concede to the authority of the other, and without concession there is no basis for relationship, but merely a series of conflicts that lead to inevitable forfeiture and abandonment by whomever the most frustrated party happens to……..

  15. ” . . . check out the beard, is he a Taliban now?”

    No, just Eastern, where the religious culture is much older than Christianity and not so influenced by European culture which had non-native Christianity laid on top of it without the root culture as background.

    Thou shalt not trim the corners of your beard. Abrahamic, but it goes back much farther than that even:

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/dd/e5/7b/dde57bb5b9d602c581d1ada699bc78f8.jpg

  16. Roosh has already stated he’s given up on Christianity and is “exploring” eastern religion. My guess is he’s covering all his bases before he ends up on Islam or possibly some home brew religion he concocts.

    People gave me so much shit when I called him out on his rebranding being a cult. I compared him to L. Ron Hubbard because it was exactly that cult profit model. I’m glad some intelligent men saw that for what it was, but I still get RVF commenters trying to define me in the ‘Return of Kings Wiki’ as having a beef with him for profiteering from EXACTLY what I called him out on. And here we are almost 3 years later and he’s transitioned himself into exactly what I said he would.

  17. “Roosh has already stated he’s given up on Christianity . . . ”

    Has he? I haven’t even tried to keep up, because I knew it was pointless the way he was blowing in the wind.

    That’s going to cause him some problems with the only strong, outside support he has left.

    1. Occasionally I get linked to his channel. I think he’s really struggling with the fact that guys like Milo, Molyneux, Cernovich, etc. have outstripped him in popularity doing what he’d hoped he could do by broadening his brand to include LARPy politics and social issues.

      The only thing keeping him afloat is RoK and there are better sources for the same material now.

  18. I will never understand how ‘red pill’ men find it some sort of accomplishment when they are able to hit the right buttons to trigger ‘good’ responses from amoral hypergamous robots (their wives) when y’all know damn well that your wives would NEVER consistently act upon actual values like honor, loyalty, keeping your word…and as much as you guys hate what I’m saying – I know that most of you would act on those values. Why you’d give a flying fuck about the predictable, pull-the-string response of a creature whose only value is building herself up (at your expense, usually) is beyond me, frankly.

    Even sadder is witnessing the older guys here with teenage sons who get all giddy when said teenage sons ‘get the girl’ or ‘get the attention of the popular kids’ et al….seriously, you are like the male equivalent of Dallas-area soccer moms with plastic surgery up-the-wazoo whose chief source of pride in life is in having their daughters appear like the hottest piece of ass on the block, and perhaps moving incrementally closer towards a tryout for the Cowboys’ cheerleader squad ‘someday’. Most fucking pathetic thing ever.

  19. @Joe K

    It’s deeper than that. He’s teaching his son to have his own MPO during his formative years so that his son might one day avoid finding himself sitting on the edge of a bed in an Extended Stay Homewood Suites with a loaded .45 in his mouth after an I-never-saw-it-coming *blindsiding* by hypergamy.

    A blindsiding massively fueled by his paternal lineage’s old set of books, his lifelong belief in the soulmate myth, his baked-in blue pill Disneyesque idealism and his oneitis scarcity mentality.

  20. Thanks for your concern (trolling) of the Apollo Archetype with your Cassandra Metaphor (Curse). I don’t hate what you are saying, the feeling in my bones is more indifference.
    And Happy Super Bowl Sunday.

  21. @Vektor

    If you are married, frame is all you have. Frame is not enough IMO.

    Frame is not enough–I agree; that’s why married men have to practice Game…it has always been thus, tho men’s status has declined since the 1950s.

  22. @Joe K

    I will never understand how ‘red pill’ men find it some sort of accomplishment when they are able to hit the right buttons to trigger ‘good’ responses from amoral hypergamous robots (their wives)

    So, you’re among the Blue Pill men who expect women to act like men…do you expect women to have a penis, too? Sounds gay.

  23. ” I will never understand how ‘red pill’ men find it some sort of accomplishment when they are able to hit the right buttons to trigger ‘good’ responses from amoral hypergamous robots (their wives) when y’all know damn well that your wives would NEVER consistently act upon actual values like honor, loyalty, keeping your word…and as much as you guys hate what I’m saying – I know that most of you would act on those values. Why you’d give a flying fuck about the predictable, pull-the-string response of a creature whose only value is building herself up (at your expense, usually) is beyond me, frankly.”

    http://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/41/34/214083181-denzel-washington-gif.gif

  24. @Joe K

    Even sadder is witnessing the older guys here with teenage sons who get all giddy when said teenage sons ‘get the girl’ or ‘get the attention of the popular kids’ et al….seriously, you are like the male equivalent of Dallas-area soccer moms with plastic surgery up-the-wazoo whose chief source of pride in life is in having their daughters appear like the hottest piece of ass on the block, and perhaps moving incrementally closer towards a tryout for the Cowboys’ cheerleader squad ‘someday’. Most fucking pathetic thing ever.

    Nah…much MORE pathetic is men pretending that half of the human race doesn’t exist.

  25. “The only way up is – more babies.”

    Not for Joe K.
    Who is wise to all that and knows children are nothing but small organic robots one needs to push all the right buttons on to get a “good response”.
    Which means they are a waste of time.
    Of course, by that measure everyone is a waste of time.
    Joe included.

  26. Great comments all round, as a former OMG now five years + out of a 24 year marriage I found going “Warrior Monk” benefiting me tremendously. I realize now that all relationships are temporary, just enjoy the best bits and move on. I found one really needs a daily mantra to maintain their frame to counter what their main issues are or backsliding is inevitable .

  27. An off-topic question to Novaseeker: are you commenting under the name ‘Brendan’ on The American Conservative’s website, by any chance?

    Nah, I don’t read that place. I’ve been there a few times and it just seemed like more rehashed mainstream conservatives who didn’t like Bush or something. But, no, I don’t read there and I don’t comment there.

  28. Even sadder is witnessing the older guys here with teenage sons who get all giddy when said teenage sons ‘get the girl’ or ‘get the attention of the popular kids’ et al….seriously, you are like the male equivalent of Dallas-area soccer moms with plastic surgery up-the-wazoo whose chief source of pride in life is in having their daughters appear like the hottest piece of ass on the block, and perhaps moving incrementally closer towards a tryout for the Cowboys’ cheerleader squad ‘someday’. Most fucking pathetic thing ever.

    Hmm. More like “I can’t even get laid by these desperate DTF hot MILFs who haven’t been screwed properly in years so … I’m going to take my ball and go home”.

  29. People are more attractive to us when they are in demand, aren’t they?

    For women, without question. For men, not at all. That is, a beautiful woman becomes no more beautiful or attractive to us if she is desired by all other men, or by no men — that is, it isn’t a factor in our mind, in our attraction at all. In part this is because all beautiful women are desired by all men, so it would be pointless to take “being in demand” into consideration — any woman you are attracted to, unless you’re really odd and exotic in your taste, is going to be “in demand”. But really, it doesn’t even enter our minds when we are becoming attracted or not — it’s a non-factor. One of the main differences between how men and women are attracted.

  30. @SJF
    Thanks for your reply re Deida. I do think, however, that seeing how in the long run a person’s ideas and beliefs work out in their personal life is important to understanding the utility and depth of implication of those ideas. Logically, the person and the ideas are separate, but as a practical matter the relationship is often profound.

    Re IM: In the post you cite, he states the case clearly:
    “It is man’s responsibility to lead, and woman’s to follow, for man is drawn to feminine submission in much the way woman is drawn to masculine dominance. This basic premise is itself the very basic building block on which attraction is formed, and whether knowingly or unknowingly to those involved, all healthy, happy relationships operate upon this very foundation.”

    Most TRM posters seem to agree with this. I disagree with IM’s “all” assertion.

    I think, if your and your partner want this dynamic, and it works well for you, I get that.
    With today’s economy and individualism Male and Female, I think it’s very hard to pull off. But if you can do it, excellent! I can imagine (had not had that dynamic, except only partly) it would supercharge the sexual charge.

    I’m working from a different set of premises. It’s worked well for me, and many folks in my generation, and for my kids (I’m a OOMG, I’ve got a kid about the age of Rollo).
    I totally agree it works best for man to be older and more experienced, and to marry a younger one so that she can be guided well. And, the complementary-egalitarian (not equal!) model requires a well-vetted high quality woman. (Of course, any marriage model requires that.) And PUA and RP praxeology really do add spice, more insight, and sexual energy into the relationship.

    Re Dancing. Since the early 1960s, with the advent of the Twist, the Monkey, the Watusi, and then zillion others, popular dancing has been individualistic, with no clear leader, and the couples interacting off each others’ moves. Interesting how that mirrored and prefigured our highly individualistic culture!

    1. @Marko:

      “With today’s economy and individualism Male and Female, I think it’s very hard to pull off. But if you can do it, excellent! …”

      To me what the RP implies is that the more natural, healthy, satisfying state of male-female relationships is when more traditional masculine/feminine roles are adopted by both parties. Society tells us that it shouldn’t be that way, but we all know what a sack of lies that is. What you are implying here is that the woman has to be party to the RP man’s actions to “pull it off”, either consciously or subconsciously relishing in the role.

      As I noted in a previous comment, for a modern relationship to hit this mark the WOMAN needs to just as willing to be feminine and ALLOW herself (despite her social programming) to take that traditional feminine role as the man needs to be RP aware and act accordingly.

      Meeting in the middle just means that one or both parties is unwilling to adopt their role fully…it is middle ground at best and less than perfect for both parties. Like all compromises, both parties loose equally.

      While I am still wrapping me head around this, in everything I have read there appears to be a kind of relational equilibrium that it is possible to form when a good RP male is in relationship with a submissive, feminine female. Hypergamy, male or female, takes a back seat as long as each is being of the correct RP value to the other. That isn’t to say that hypergamy isn’t active or relevant, just “satisfied”. Maybe “dormant” is a better word. It is still there and willing to be used, but the relationship is of high enough value to keep them both there.

      In any case, no RP man can force a woman to accept that role, it is something she has to do and is just made more difficult by her own modern programming.

  31. @ Joe

    My boy has spent just under a year dealing with his insecurities and did a fine job realizing true change. GFY.

    I’ve just been along for the ride. He’s better off and those around him are better for it too.

    I don’t know your motivations, why you hate on the next generation or parents looking to avoid betatizing in an FI world. Of note, kids always get the last laugh. Enjoy lying in your geriatric Olympic size pool of urine and stool as my kids ignore your call bell. Dildo.

    Speaking of betatizing parents, a popular FI parenting convention here is overwrought romance proposals to prom. Truly pathetic, the parents who allow their sons to humiliate themselves publicly to a girl who’s clueless how to deal with the unearned attention.

  32. @Marko

    Re Dancing. Since the early 1960s, with the advent of the Twist, the Monkey, the Watusi, and then zillion others, popular dancing has been individualistic, with no clear leader, and the couples interacting off each others’ moves. Interesting how that mirrored and prefigured our highly individualistic culture!

    Ballroom dancing, swing, salsa, and country are still very much alive and they all are lead-follow dances.

  33. Ballroom dancing, swing, salsa, and country are still very much alive and they all are lead-follow dances.

    Yep, and honestly, they’re the only dancing any self-respecting man should be doing. And if he doesn’t know how, he should learn. It’s a critical skill, precisely because it physically reinforces the relationship dynamic.

  34. @Marko

    “With today’s economy and individualism Male and Female, I think it’s very hard to pull off. But if you can do it, excellent! I can imagine (had not had that dynamic, except only partly) it would supercharge the sexual charge.”

    Yes. That’s is the point. Imagine if no one gave you a choice or alternative other than follow the crowd off a cliff.

    I’m working from a different set of premises. It’s worked well for me, and many folks in my generation, and for my kids.

    Also true. And more safe. It’s not a requirement to be more perfect. Older school communities and schools of thought do work well, up until the point that they don’t.

  35. @Marko

    “It is man’s responsibility to lead, and woman’s to follow, for man is drawn to feminine submission in much the way woman is drawn to masculine dominance. This basic premise is itself the very basic building block on which attraction is formed, and whether knowingly or unknowingly to those involved, all healthy, happy relationships operate upon this very foundation.”

    I disagree with IM’s “all” assertion.

    In ALL business partnerships, which are a kind of social, financial, and legal relationship, one partner is dominant and the rest submissive…through ALL of history.

    In socio-sexual relationships, responsibility may be sorted out by spheres…in my case, Mrs. Gamer pays the bills because it drains me of all energy to do so…I am terrible at administrative work. However, in most things, Mrs. Gamer defers to me and to my judgment, generally.

    You can argue that water isn’t wet if you like.

  36. Anyone watching Quarry the Cinemax show?

    Great to watch for the various pieces of Red Pill advice the main character gets and ignores.

    Mack the main character is a returning Vietnam vet in 1972 who returns home and in episode 3 or 4 catches his wife banging a co worker. At one point Mack’s wife is kidnapped by a thug Mack failed to successfully knock off for his boss known as The Broker.

    He turns for help to his boss a crime boss who arranges hits and is known as The Broker for help in finding her and getting her back safetly.

    There is a scene where the Broker sends one of his thugs to give Mack a gun and ransom money for a hit operation.

    The thug tells Mack he’ll help him but if he caught his own wife cheating and she was kidnapped he’d let her get what she deserved.

    I bring this up becAuse it illustrates th alpha beta dilemma. It’s easy to give alpha advice but when we are stuck in some type of commitment or obligation we guys often feel a compulsion to fulfill it.

    This scene hit home for me.

    I have been in the situation where a girl or plate disappears and if we had plans or I had agreed to do something I struggle with whether or not to do it fearing I’ll “look” bad if she holds it against me.

    Seeing this seen is relevant to my own reconstruction and To many of you dudes struggling with the wife who won’t put out or the gf or plate who disrespects you.

    I just had this situation where I had planned to buy something for a plate while on holiday. But she disrespected me. I ended up selling the thing I had bought on her behalf instead of following through.

    I nested her a month ago before my trip and she made no effort to reach out.

    I share this because I know I did the right thing. But I did struggle between the idea of fulfilling my “commitment” to her with the errand and fulfilling the red pill commitment to myself to maintain frame.

    At some point I expect plate to ask about this thing and for me to say “I sold it” andbher yo go nuts and lay a guilt trip. That is the frame control battle brewing. If i ever hear from her I will simply shrug and say “didn’t hear from you so I sold it”.

    Guys who are stuck need to watch this scene to see the contrast beteeen alpha thug and beta provider.

  37. Wala, that’s interesting.

    It’s not really you “looking bad to her” is it? It’s more of an internal battle within you – you have a self-image as a man who lives up to the commitments he makes. So if she flakes or disrespects you or whatever she loses the right to the commitment you made – hence you’re entitled to withdraw the commitment.

    The logic is similar to married guys whose wives withdraw sex..yes, they made a commitment to fidelity but she broke the agreement first, leaving the guys (morally at least) free to get laid elsewhere.

    That said, I can see there’s a real conflict between those two imperatives even in RP men – it’s not a good feeling to break a promise even if it is justified – if you’re a man whose word means something to him.

  38. @Culum,
    Well that it seems is the essence of congruency, “to thine own self be true”.

    Just don’t be true to values that are not yours, e.g. the FI values that are laid upon us as a yoke. Can you live with yourself? Can you hold those around you to the rules you have set for yourself? Do you have the fortitude? Will everything work out the way you want it to if you do hold people to those rules?

    Broken clock is correct twice a day, thus Joe K can have a small momentary point here, never rely on a woman to be “honorable”. That’s just cover fire from the FI to make you keep you head down. No, honor your commitment to yourself first, then decide if there are any table scraps left for others.

    It’s OK Joe K, one day you may get through your anger phase, e.g. being pissed off at yourself for failing to see that cats don’t understand honor, only dogs do.

  39. @wala

    I have been in the situation where a girl or plate disappears and if we had plans or I had agreed to do something I struggle with whether or not to do it fearing I’ll “look” bad if she holds it against me.

    I say that it’s her job to keep you from having doubts about whether she will flake…she should contact you to confirm at least the same day. As Ton says, double book…at least have a Plan B that you will enjoy–doesn’t have to be a date.

  40. @culum. Right. The fact is men are raised to be true to their word, women aren’t.

    I read Blackdragon’s rules of the soft next. Some dude asked the same question: “what if you had plans?”

    Bd’s advice was break them. She should know better.

    Anyway in my situation i didn’t contact one plate for more than a year. In the most recent case it’s been a month. Neither of them likes being ignored but they don’t want to make the first move. Yes that’s why I have several in my rotation and other projects or plans if one flakes.

    Also if a girl doesn’t contact you it generally means there’s another dude involved so I save myself the loss of frame by just walking away.

  41. @Culum
    The logic is similar to married guys whose wives withdraw sex..yes, they made a commitment to fidelity but she broke the agreement first,

    I tend to think the man (myself in my case) broke the commitment first by not being the RP man he should have been. I know now her withdrawing sex was a natural consequence of me not fulfilling my proper role of being the man in the relationship. It’s easy to blame the woman and justify the cheating but harder to turn the spotlight on yourself and understand in the RP world why it happened.

  42. Culum / Wala

    Reciprocity is a Dog concept… rooted in the BP Golden Rule. You fail when you expect cats to live up to the standard. Too much of the “nexting” is a buffer… her behavior is telling you something, you haven’t raised your game.

    Raising your game to get what you want is OK. And there are lines you need to draw, for your own sake. This interplay is an advanced concept. As always living in the DPA frame will help, this is the grease…

    Imagine Leo Dicaprio texting a chick t hang out at XXX… she ignores… he isn’t going to give it a second thought. and it is this – not thinking – that sets him apart… he is off doing whatever he wanted to do. By the same token, if he engages and teases and games her to come through… it is still from his frame. Again – the interplay in between actions is all the difference. Part of that is he doesn’t care when she does come out. It is not defining. It is another day.

    While still betaized I had enough latent RP in me to draw lines… One Christmas I decided to give my wife a nice watch, like a car expensive watch, because she didn’t have one. I wasn’t looking for anything just thought it would be nice for her. So whole family is there, parents etc. exchanging gifts. Give her the watch – which I know is great, on point, daughters loved it etc. – and she is like “ehhhh yeah it’s nice but maybe I can get this one” with the blinky blinky pretty please eyes, which was almost exactly the same looks wise but 10% more. I just smiled at her, took the watch and said, “OK if you don’t like it I will return it.”

    And that was the end of the watch. Never got her one.

  43. Rugby / Rollo

    What do?

    Personally, I’d address the guy, because a wife is property and you don’t touch my property. A simple smile, close space and a flat “what the fuck do you think you are doing?” will chill most guys out… and then they are in your frame. “uh hey man, it’s cool blah blah” usually with palms up.

    Then move her along. Yeah she liked it, OK… Ummm…. you would like it if a 20YO came up and rubbed your cock right? Use the info to inform your game.

    I don’t buy the mateguarding is beta, it is how it is done.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQPHK_7dwTU

    Take note of Tyler here… he doesn’t AMOG, he moves her along…. LOL

  44. What would Rollo do? I wonder?

    You could play it off, and tell her, damn girl, you should go fuck that guy and call her bluff… if it was a plate, or some random girl for sure do it that way. But property is property.

    Incidentally this was a concept – “ownership” – that Tweedlede and Tweedledumb refused to acknowledge and understand during the marriage “debate”…

  45. “she is like “ehhhh yeah it’s nice but maybe I can get this one” with the blinky blinky pretty please eyes, which was almost exactly the same looks wise but 10% more.”

    i haven’t bought anything expensive for Mrs. EhIntellect in years, not even a Christmas present, birthday present.

    I’ll make her something from the shop now, but it is satisfying to me primarily. I’ve created art with her in mind only to be disappointed with “I would have done it this way.” or “It’s too imbalanced/don’t like the colors, I don’t know…”

    All she wanted was the final product, and to power-share the process was in her frame.

    Backing off the “How do I love thee? Let me count the ways…” BP stupidity helped.

    Suasage/sausage making applies here too.

  46. Guy slaps wife’s ass in bar?

    This kind of thing or something similar has happened maybe 3 times over my married life.

    ° wife giggles? Lol, Houston we have a serious issue. This would indicate that there was a flaw in my vetting and training.

    The last time something like that happened was at a party. Dude had been trying to pursue wifey all night. She rebuffed numerous times , each time more firmly than the one prior. The guy was persistent. Then he lightly slapped her ass and she went ballistic. I walked over and wifey held out her hand to stop me saying ” it’s cool, I got this “. She was cursing the guy out while jabbing her finger into his chest. The dude looked at me saying ” man, come get your bitch “.

    A couple of well placed bodyshots put the matter to rest permanently. Ribs heal, so no problem.

    To me this falls under the Protection category. I protect that which is mine.

    But a sign of some kind of enjoyment at the ass slapping? That’s a deeper issue that will have to be dealt with harshly. The giggling iis a spontaneous reaction displaying her true mindset. Not a good look. It might even be a deal breaker of sorts. Even if it’s not, she will think it is.

    This cannot be negotiated.

    I believe iin vetting out behaviors like the giggling shit, before marriage. And it’s not about mate guarding per se when a man escalates to physical contact. It’s about protection.

  47. @Sentient. The watch story is similar to mine and yes I sold the item already so there is no question about whether I did the right thing. The only question is the feeling of uncertainty an de mixed emotions after.

    The beta blue pill thinking is co dependence…basing your feelings and actions around how others see you.

    Men “expect” women to withhold sex so they work extra hard to win it back. Blue Pill.

    Working through to the point returning the watch becomes second nature is the challenge.

  48. Rollo:
    Roosh has already stated he’s given up on Christianity

    Eh? That won’t sit very well with some of the fans of “NeoMasculinity”, unless they are willing to endure permanent cognitive dissonance.

    and is “exploring” eastern religion. My guess is he’s covering all his bases before he ends up on Islam or possibly some home brew religion he concocts.

    Well, my bet is some version of Rumi-poetry or Sufi Islam. Roosh’s real problem is he is “fragile” as in the opposite of “antifragile” due to the narrowness of his previous brand. Books like “Bang Poland” have a limited shelf life. But that and some web presence seems to be RooshV’s income stream. The meetup fiasco made that worse.

    As a rule, talking about other people isn’t very interesting to me except in terms of emulation or avoidance. RooshV’s providing an example of a path to avoid, because his mindset has been whack for a while now; he’s not willling to learn from other men, so now he’s got no where to turn for advice. In my opinion.

    This is not a good mental space to be in. That’s why his situation is sometimes worth discussing.

  49. Gentlemen

    Stay with the hypothetical… She giggles…

    Women are susceptible to the charms of a DPA guy… they are programmed to be so… at some point in your life you may cross paths with a dude who is higher than you on the scale… so of course your wife will react… she is programmed to.

    Now again the hypothetical is she giggles and seems to like it… it isn’t she drops and blows dood right there…

    The giggling iis a spontaneous reaction displaying her true mindset.

    Yes this here ^^^ is true… Blax, you wrote about the fervor of your then wife (forget which one) blowing you because you touched Eddie Murphie’s hem… what if it was Eddie in the bar with the slap and giggle??

    These are realities one needs to be aware of and handle.

    Of course vet, and of course self mate-guarding is key… and have your boundaries on behavior. But the hypothetical is what it is… and the programming is what it is… we just got through all the Dog concepts of honor and such being foreign to the cat mind…

    #Warbrides

    If she is in lurv with you won’t she feel the same for you +1?

  50. EhIntellect
    Speaking of betatizing parents, a popular FI parenting convention here is overwrought romance proposals to prom. Truly pathetic, the parents who allow their sons to humiliate themselves publicly to a girl who’s clueless how to deal with the unearned attention.

    That stuff is the Grand, Romantic Gesture in the 19th century sense, that’s supposed to sweep a girl off of her feet with sheer grandness and romanticleness. Don’t pay much attention to it, but any parents who would allow it are way out of touch with reality; any father who went along with that would be almost certainly a major White Knight with delusions of adequacy.

    Also that kind of goes along with the “purity ball” thing discussed at Dalrock’s lately, or the “Imma sit here cleanin’ mah shotgun when that boy comes to take little Susie out for a date” mindset. These things are all cartoon versions of older styles of being a father. The word “cartoon” is key, because dressing up like a badass while looking like George from Seinfeld will only convince the extremely betaized, and no one else. Although one would get a cookie from the women for trying.

  51. If she giggles…

    Short-term I’d pull affection and emotional engagement, curtly ending the night if needed. Tacitly forcing the issue.

    Long-term I’d seriously consider why she isn’t mate guarding/isn’t satisfied/shit testing and my role in this.

    All women like some form of attention, how she externalizes it speaks to my frame quotient.

    if she’s giggling in my presence, in my absence, I’m cucked.

  52. @Sentient/Wala – LOL at the watch story.

    Back in my LTR – quite a few years ago now, so I was in full BP territory (I knew Game existed and had practiced it for a few months before entering the LTR, but I wasn’t very good at it yet and by this point had lost all the hand I entered the LTR with, which was quite a bit).

    The GF had been talking for ages about taking up photography (she’d never done it before except on her iPhone) as a serious hobby and she kept saying she wanted a DSLR (price varies depending on model and the bells and whistles included but easily $1000-2000).

    I did a LOT of research – online, talking to friends who were into photography etc and determined that for her as a beginner, a DSLR wasn’t appropriate and she needed to get something more basic and simple to learn on and then if she used it and learnt stuff she could graduate to a DSLR.

    For Christmas, I bought her an expensive (several hundred dollars) point-and-shoot – not basic at all actually. It was basically one step down from a DSLR and almost as good.

    She hated it. Didn’t look happy when it was given, kept commenting how she wanted a DSLR.

    I’d also bought her a one-day photography course with a professional (who took a group of 3-4 people on a photo-walk and taught them) and she took it and came back bitching that she couldn’t do a lot of stuff on the course because she didn’t have a DSLR like everyone else..(she’s was a total novice).

    So then I caved and I sold her camera on eBay and gave her the cash to buy herself a DSLR instead.

    One of the worst decisions of my LTR that was. She was actually not a bad person at all – the betaization and stuff was my fault, but that one ranks as one of the worst acts of self-sabotage I committed.

    (She used the DSLR on occasion – it didn’t gather dust – but nowhere near enough to justify buying it instead of the other one)

  53. AgentP
    Broken clock is correct twice a day, thus Joe K can have a small momentary point here, never rely on a woman to be “honorable”. That’s just cover fire from the FI to make you keep you head down. No, honor your commitment to yourself first, then decide if there are any table scraps left for others.

    Girls like to pretend they are one of the guys. They also are physically weak and still need men psychologically to “move heavy objects” for them; there are any number of “heavy objects” that need moving in a woman’s life, although frankly a mousetrap ain’t that heavy. So the combo of “want to be one of the guys” but “need heavy objects moved” leads some women to behave in what they think is a more masculine fashion, and that leads them to use words like “honor” in order to get men to do something.

    That’s just a cat using dog-words. Men manipulate their environment with muscles, brains and tools; women manipulate their environment by manipulating men. This is just reality.

    Joe K, don’t expect girls to have honor. Don’t expect cats to bark and sit on command, either. You’ll be frustrated in both cases.

  54. In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.

    2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”

    6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.

    10 David was told, “Uriah did not go home.” So he asked Uriah, “Haven’t you just come from a military campaign? Why didn’t you go home?”

    11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents,[a] and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”

    12 Then David said to him, “Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David’s invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master’s servants; he did not go home.

    14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”

    16 So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. 17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.

    18 Joab sent David a full account of the battle. 19 He instructed the messenger: “When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, 20 the king’s anger may flare up, and he may ask you, ‘Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn’t you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? 21 Who killed Abimelek son of Jerub-Besheth[b]? Didn’t a woman drop an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?’ If he asks you this, then say to him, ‘Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.’”

    22 The messenger set out, and when he arrived he told David everything Joab had sent him to say. 23 The messenger said to David, “The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance of the city gate. 24 Then the archers shot arrows at your servants from the wall, and some of the king’s men died. Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.”

    25 David told the messenger, “Say this to Joab: ‘Don’t let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.’ Say this to encourage Joab.”

    26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.

    Old story… Uriah was a badass Alpha Male Warrior.

  55. @Sentient

    I don’t buy the mateguarding is beta, it is how it is done.

    Depends. If you’re around, own your property. If you’re not around, it’s on the woman to mateguard herself. If you’re trying to keep your woman corralled or watched when you’re not around, you’re doing it wrong.

    You’re in a bar and this guy slaps your wife’s ass. She giggles and seems to like it. What do?

    Blax and Sentient nailed this. As for What Would Gamer Do….

    Depends…if he’s drunk, just move her along. If he’s sober, tell him she’s your wife and move her along. If the man would get in my face over this, I’d say, “If you want a wife, get your own…plenty of pussy out there.” If he persists, it’s time to get the bouncers.

    Slapping a woman’s ass isn’t a big deal. It’s rude, sure, but no harm is done.

    Once a man was incidentally putting his hands on Mrs. Gamer’s ass while dancing…she handled it by not dancing with him again. She brings up that obnoxious guy occasionally.

    Once a man was making Mrs. Gamer feel very good while dancing…he was a player. She gave me a “come save me” look while chatting with him, so I asked her to dance. After that, the player asked my permission to ask Mrs. Gamer to dance and he didn’t try to romance her again.

  56. @Blaximus: what Sentient said.

    Attraction is not a choice. The giggle is involuntary and can be triggered by a competent PUA on your wife, regardless of vetting, unless you actually don’t believe certain tenets of the Red Pill (which I think you don’t), inlcuding AWALT. Game works on your wife even if it isn’t you working the game on her.

    Now, where I think the vetting works is after the giggle, the voluntary actions which are choices is your wife can activate ASD (to differing degrees), by removing herself from the situation etc.

    BTW if she shit tests in such situations that is arguably a vulnerability – although most men suck at passing shit tests, if the PUA can destroy the shit test her attraction will go up (involuntarily).

    Your RL example from your wife being hit on persistently by a guy is not applicable to the hypothetical because the guy in your example was, according to your recounting of his actions, pretty bad at Game (persistently chasing 1 married girl without IOIs – terrible logistics if nothing else).

  57. Rollo great finish to the series. I just want to interject without disagreeing with anything you’re saying.. I think it would be great for you to extend this with one more installment about this same topic (unplugging during marriage), but factor in the ‘kid factor’.. especially when the kid(s) is a son. It really does become the controlling factor that prevents a man from taking positive steps to improve the situation.

    At the risk of boring everyone with more of my story..

    22 yr old Tuff meets 19 yr old hottie the future Mrs. Luv when she arrives as a waitress at the bar he runs.

    Raging young lust relationship ensues, temporary (college) move in together ensues.

    Pregnancy ensues. Tuff is reluctant and scared shitless of ‘doing the right thing’ with this chick. Tuff is 3 months from graduating college.

    Ms. Hot waits patiently for Tuff to man up. Tuff proposes with the shittiest proposal ever..

    A marriage.. A son is born. Then another intentional one 2 years later.

    Tuff is a tough love kind of guy. Tuff makes no bones about who has the final say in this relationship. TUFF IS AFFORDED this luxury for a very important reason often overlooked in the manosphere. The words ‘barefoot and pregnant’ have persisted through time for good reason. What kinds of options does a 20 yr old pregnant woman have? Not many.

    However, Mrs. Luv is very feisty.. High conflict, and shit-testy, but still young and not nearly as bad as she would show in the future.. I’ve stated she’s BPD and I stand by that.. all the evidence is there in her actions and in her childhood experiences. She is high functioning however.

    Mrs. Luv is a very feminine, even traditional woman, despite her poor upbringing, because we live in Texas, and she’s from a small town. She is mostly content to follow whatever Tuff says. She “loves” him. They are poor, and young, but Tuff is capable beyond his years at “adulting”, like so many Gen-X, because he’s been simulating it since age 15, and was raised by parents who actually taught him shit and made him well-rounded. He is an acceptable combination of exciter/provider, a good father, handsome, smart, tough and witty enough to never lose face to an AMOG in her presence, also has a sweet side, etc..

    Tuff thoroughly enjoys the first decade of this situation.. Hot but mostly classy wife. Plenty of chemistry. Two above average sons. Career success and drastic financial improvement. Social group composed of mostly couples. Zero opposite-sex friends for either side. Zero exes in the picture. No social media. No bullshit. The only time I had to mate-guard was when she was on my arm in social situations, and it was often.. not a lot of fun, but doable and also what she expects. But it was definitely not the futile situation men are faced with today holy shit.

    Now I’m gonna say here.. I think most men whose lives come crashing down hard, as mine did.. are in this type of situation, regardless of how/when it began. INVESTED heavily in FAR MORE than just the woman.. a family. I just think all the time about what a cake walk it would have been to divorce her at any point when shit got ugly, if it hadn’t been for the far more important investments that she and our marriage, were the cornerstones of. #1 being my sons. It’s simple really, I would make any sacrifice necessary to make sure those boys had me as their only father, and in their presence every day of their young lives. I felt the same way about my daughter ten years later, and I went lower than low in pathetic BP beggary to try and hang on for her.. but things had changed far too much by then and I simply failed. Continuing the descent, killing her mother, and/or killing myself.. Both prospects were entertained. THAT IS the bottom. Nowhere to go but up from there.

    But this all had to do with the kids, and my ego.. Not really the bitch. Not at all. And I was right. Managing post-divorce-rape-slavery, maintaining your pride and respect as a father while doing it, dealing with a vindictive ex while paying handsomely for the all these privileges, really sucks.

    But I want to point out something that I suspected with my wife during our ~6-year decline, and has now been pretty well confirmed for me by the relationships I’ve had since divorce, and in just absorbing the modern single woman’s viewpoint in general (something I had the luxury to ignore for most of my adult life). I do think it is important for your RP readers.. especially those dealing with this particular enigma (LTR/Marriage RP Zen)

    There needs to be a formula for this. Because what it is is that as a woman ages into a relationship, she DOES expect to ‘tame the beast’ to some extent.

    If you ask my ex why she blew it up.. She would have 5 words for you..

    Because He Is An Asshole

    Yes.. I was the asshole she wanted for 15 years, and now I’m the asshole she despises.

    This is true, even though I had a desperate BP slide that lasted 6 years, resulting from her communicating to me to soften up, to stop controlling, to give her more leeway, more power, hear her roar, etc.. from her general unhappiness and my determination to make it work.. and finally from my demise, and complete loss of me as any part of my mental point of origin at all. See, throughout my era of concession, I was still myself. I was still the patriarch. Still the boss, just one with shackles on.. Therefore, I’m still an asshole, despite my concessions. In fact in the end, I was a supplicating-no-self-respect-having-weak-emasculated-control-freak-chavnist-

    It’s a catch 22 fellas. Her replacement for me is just your AFC. He’s medium-everything but overall a good guy. While I’ve seen him even be guiding of her, and her allowing it.. his game consists strictly of nice-guy game. He’s the nice guy I wasn’t, though knowing him, I know it is an act.. I know he’s just settling because he’s been lonely too long. I have no doubt if she were younger and not rapidly decaying SMV-wise, she would eventually shit all over his world, but it’s a different game at this stage, and he’s ready to play it.. Better him than me.

    The chicks in my age range I’ve dated (37-44), holy shit do they make it clear they want the NICE guy. They are NOT interested in your dominant side, except STRICTLY in the bedroom. Show it to them outwardly, and unless they have a serious need for you, you are out. Keep in mind chicks at this age have declining libidos.. Sure they have recreational sex, but not like the youngers.. They generally take it or leave it (or have it on rotation coming to them haha).. not going out of their way for AF.. and also not necessarily looking for BB. They just want a nice guy, period. Hamster-rationale tells them their shitty situation is the result of one thing.. Assholes they spent their time with. But don’t think that means they want to settle down with you, nice guy.. Don’t think when you present them with the best they could possibly do, that they’ll latch on.. Not if they have a shred of SMV left, nope. Yes, I daresay, a man having a soft-harem of women in this age range chasing is impossible. It’s the reverse actually, (female pLTR all the way, read YaReally on this), because these women can totally control their urges and can pass on even the most honed gamers among us. And if you are work for them, forget it.

    The younger chicks I’ve dated (28-35).. yes, much more predictable and manageable. PUA skills work just fine on them, even in a relationship. Conventional RP wisdom is the right way to go in the beginning. They still feel the need for the Alpha.. But of course they are all looking for that perfect combination to cash out with, and they want to cash out as badly as the older hag wants a nice guy to string along or just spend intermittent time with.

    If you’re in the long game and serious about making it work, you could stumble badly on this “reinvigorating” of yourself.. if you are 15 years deep and in your late 30s/early 40s. Although the drama created alone might be enough to satisfy her haha.. If you have kids and/or other investments.

    So all of this.. and I don’t have an answer. I’m pointing these things out because I think a praxeology for the long game that accounts for these things is absent from the discussion.

    Best suggestion I could make is that when you choose to change something because the RP has awoken you to your seriously fucked up situation, like others (@horseman) said, you must first next her in your mind, expect it to fail, expect to leave. In order to do this you must also accept all the fallout, including losing control of your children. I could not do this.

    The Cardinal Rule has much to say about the situation of a married man who has and loves his children and his life in general, but is just having some ‘issues’ with his bitch wife.

  58. @ Sentient

    You think Uriah knew he was being played? His conversion demanded he disobey David, and David blinked. Then Uriah was sent to die. Uriah must of known.

    Oh man, I guess we all have mini-Uriah moments.

  59. You think Uriah knew he was being played?

    Not at all… he executed the Dog plan to perfection… Loyalty, honor, self sacrifice, do unto others… shit man, he could be a mid level accountant with that… Or a Midwest Regional Manager… and BS Troop Leader.

  60. I read a comment on an article over the weekend regarding marriage and the commenter was breaking down the horizon of bachelorhood across the various age ranges. The one that stood out to me was “bachelorhood after 40 is terminal.” The old blue pill me would have read that comment and been quite sad thinking wow…..I’ve failed at life. Bwahahahahaha. The Red Pill me read that comment and was grateful for two things: 1) I’ll never have to worry about getting ass-raped in divorce court and 2) I managed to swallow the pill before making the greatest mistake a man can possibly make. You may be thinking to yourself “greatest mistake”? Yes young padawan…..greatest mistake. Yours truly happens to live in the U.S. and we ALL know the sunken depravity that has set in on the modern Ameriskank.

    It’s funny I always get the question “don’t you wanna have kids”? I’m like….there’s 7 billion people on the planet. Me not having children is not going to impact that. If anything, it’s just me playing my part in the “soshukou danshi” imperative in the U.S. Now I’m not naïve enough to think that a sole lone individual is going to do anything to impact the feminist machine that is so thoroughly entrenched in the American way of life. However, it does allow me to educate those who aren’t “in the know” about the system and how it will be terminally stacked against them. With the court system, feminism, and the “lady gaga” slutdom aimed to fire a brigade volley in your direction at the slightest chink in your armor, the marriage game is too stressful, too costly, and too cumbersome to win against no matter your effort.

    In short, if you haven’t gotten married, DON’T! If you’re already married, make sure you have a solid exit strategy in place…..not for IF the bomb goes off, but for WHEN it goes off. If you’re fortunate that it never does, then consider yourselves lucky. If it does, at least you’ll be prepared.

  61. @Sentient

    She didn’t like the guy…she avoided him on a trip to the bathroom and has never talked to him nor has he been at other dances. Mrs. Gamer considered it an insult because he wasn’t Tom Brady. Remember the Brady Rules…heh

  62. Perhaps he knew he was a dead man walking, he disobeyed David, escaped execution publicly, and he knew death was coming. Went all in, let the chips fall.

    Then again, there’s a scene from “A Man for All Seasons” where More consoles his wife (I think) by saying such that he won’t be, people aren’t, executed over such things. Was he lying for her benefit or both?

    Guys prevaricate re: wives’ cheating, giggling-type behavior.

    Denial is a powerful buffer.

  63. @ IAS

    Of course awalt.

    You’d be surprised at what a woman’s mind can control. Lol, at competent pua thing.

    Problem iis, and it’s quite common, you don’t understand vetting and training I grew up where many guys are hyper aggressive iin going after women. Competition was always extreme. Probably on levels you couldn’t even imagine. You learn things in that environment, like how to spot chicks that don’t fold under pressure from another male. You also learn to, as puas love to say, ” always be the highest value option “. Period.

    Then it’s” let the best man win “.

    So nah, no giggling shit. 2 wives and that’s not ever been any cause for concern.

    Gf’s are different matter though. That’s why they stayed gf’s.

  64. TuffLuv
    The chicks in my age range I’ve dated (37-44), holy shit do they make it clear they want the NICE guy.

    That’s what they say. What do they do, though?

    Thanks for the long discussion of your own marriage. Hope this place can be helpful to you.

  65. @Blax

    You’d be surprised at what a woman’s mind can control. Lol, at competent pua thing.

    If a woman catches on EARLY enough, sure, she can remove herself from temptation…however, once she is lit up and bouncing off the walls, her self-control goes to zero and her libido goes sky-high.

  66. “The rise of Red Pill awareness of intersexual dynamics on the internet has made for a community of men who find this denial distasteful. Rather than abdicate to the imperative and their wife’s Frame they look to the Red Pill and Game for a remedy to that state.”

    Yes…these are the “flogging a dead horse” men/husbands/boyfriends who I hear all the time on Tom Leykis videos on youtube. “Quality woman” “responsibility” are some of their buzzwords.

  67. The chicks in my age range I’ve dated (37-44), holy shit do they make it clear they want the NICE guy.

    For chicks, “make it clear (i.e., “say”) they want the NICE guy” doesn’t equal “what they do”.

    Younger chicks will never admit to their friends that they are sleeping with an older guy. However, if you ask them what they SEE other girls doing, you will get to the truth. A buddy and I asked this of a waitress and she said that young girls back when she was young were with old guys about 50/50 and that they preferred old guys because the old guys were less insecure.

  68. @anon

    That’s my experience.. it’s a requisite if you want access. Not pussy pansy nice.. just well behaved. They still want dominance as you’ll find out when you get them alone.. but I’ve noticed a real queen bee laziness in the ones who can afford it.. financially and looks wise.. they ain’t chasing.. they’re harvesting. It seems they dgaf.. they are the players.

    Limited experience here.. but definitely very notable differences in the age groups. The 44 yr old was a 9 in her heyday.. so she got mad game. But she is extremely blunt.. not secretive.. not shy about her orbiters.. and some of these guys are quite studly.. but you should see the sickening displays of betatude on her feed.. I’m an empiricist.. they got the same response I did.. be nice and accept my parameters or get lost. But thrill me and you get access. It’s sick man. Thanks to rollo I don’t engage.. I ignore her a lot and it works.. sort of. There is no winning, only scoring but at least I can do it with my dignity in tact. Some of these dudes.. Jesus Christ.

    RP applies she still wants what she perceives she can’t have the most.. but again.. unless the chick needs something, you will be stepping into her world, her frame basically. Briffault you know.. and a 40+ chick who needs something is not really what I want. So I’ll play.

  69. @ Sentient

    Wifey 1 was an anomaly. I had nothing to fear from Mr Murphy. Lol. Wife 1 fell madly in love with me at the tender age of 13, and had always hoped and dreamed that we would be together one day. Prior to me she had one bf, and an n count of 3-4 ( she claimed 2… I assume 3-4 ). I was a constant enough presence in her life that I was able to observe her behaviors first hand.

    There were always a bunch of guys around vying for her attention. Some with more money and things, some were more smooth talking players, some were pretty alpha boys.

    One thing I’d never doubted iis that she wanted me above all else. 20 years after our divorce she is still ” single “.

    In contrast my first ever gf fucked the lead singer from the band Slave on their tour bus. Lol.

    It’s not easy or universal at all, but it’s possible to short circuit a woman’s normal biological drive towards other high value men. Sure, sometimes shit goes south.

    It’s like the prior conversation about Deep Conversion that got ridiculed and derailed by the strictly pua guys here. Damn shame because iit limited discussion on ” possibilities “.

  70. @ ASD

    Then the man is responsible for knowing how to light her up, keep her bouncing off the walls and sending her libido through the roof.

  71. @gamer you hit the nail on the head…

    ” they preferred old guys because the old guys were less insecure.”

    It really is one massive self-esteem shit test. It’s a must pass.

    When I said, “They make it clear they want a nice guy”, I did not mean with words.. I mean they WILL next YOU.. and their reasoning is that they see machismo as insecurity.. plain and simple. So you might ask, well how I’m I supposed to be nice and show high self esteem when the chick gives me all sorts of reasons not to? indeed.. it is a different game. But I am very thankful for the 44 yr old.. a) because she’s still hot and dtf, and b) because she is super blunt and stubborn, therefore improving not only my game, but truly my inner strength and self assuredness. She gave me a choice.. accept it like this, or not at all. Rather than nexting her, I kept her as FWB, as I did with the 28 year old.. this arrangement is new to me, and look, it’s not lovely or perfect.. but it does have advantages. It’s kind of a sweet spot not having to be her ONE, but still having the benefits of associating with her that I desire. She nuked my hangups about exclusivity, improving my abundance mentality, making me snap out of it and realize.. this is actually the way I want it now, not finding another chick to settle down with.. Just the fun stuff, not the responsibility.. not the drama.

  72. “This is the most difficult part for Blue Pill men wanting to reconstruct themselves. Their mental point of origin doesn’t change, they want to change because they want to be “more Alpha” for their wives, not themselves. The idea is to adopt just enough Alpha that their wives turn the sex spigot back on for them, but never really internalize the Red Pill to the point that is fundamentally changes who they are.”

    This is the thing – they start adopting red pill concepts, then they meet resistance from their wives. Meanwhile outside the marriage other willing women are noticing and ready to turn on their sex-spigots (nice one Rollo) for them any time, anywhere….but then they’re hit by innate male loyalty and deference to honour and of course their default blue pill mentality and run back to their wives, with arms wide open saying “see I’ve become red pill for you honey” and are met with even more resistance…

    The blue pill and the imperative are strong…men really can’t afford to underestimate their insidious pervasiveness.

  73. but I’ve noticed a real queen bee laziness in the ones who can afford it.. financially and looks wise.. they ain’t chasing.. they’re harvesting. It seems they dgaf.. they are the players.

    Limited experience here.. but definitely very notable differences in the age groups. The 44 yr old was a 9 in her heyday.. so she got mad game. But she is extremely blunt.. not secretive.. not shy about her orbiters.. and some of these guys are quite studly.. but you should see the sickening displays of betatude on her feed.. I’m an empiricist.. they got the same response I did.. be nice and accept my parameters or get lost. But thrill me and you get access.

    Yep.

    It often gets lost in the sphere, I think, where the predominant view of women in this age range is “they’re past the wall and not attractive” (true enough, *most* of them are, but not the ones you, and everyone else, wants) and/or “they can’t remarry well at that age, so they’re screwed” (also true, but this assumes they want to remarry to begin with).

    When you are in this market (and this is the pond I fish in, too), what you realize is that the hot women at this age range are in super-super-high demand, precisely because there are so few of them. That is, it’s true that most women in that age range are not very well put together or well-maintained. Only a minority of women are when you get to the mid-40s and beyond. Most let themselves go to some extent due to being married, or having kids or both, or just not caring that much any more and so on. There’s a much smaller group at this age range who has kept themselves up, so to speak, via nutrition, fitness, trainers, surgery (and, yes, in many cases good baseline genes, too). This group is a smaller percentage of women at this age range than it is at 35, and much, much smaller than at 25 (i.e., there are more hotties overall at 25, then less at 35 but still more than at 45). By the time you get to mid40s and beyond, the group is small, which means that they is an insane demand for them. Why? Because the guys who are fishing in this pond aren’t interested *at all* for the most part in the more slovenly women in this range (for obvious reasons), and so the women who are in this position at this age have huge market power because they are scarce. It’s not quite as much as the market power of a 24yo HB9, of course, but in the market at this age they have a lot of market power. And so they act that way — she dgaf because every guy in the world who is in the market for a woman of that age is standing in a long line outside her door.

    Now, the issue about not being able to get George Clooney to marry you is a real issue, that’s true. The guys who are lining up are generally not the same quality as the ones she could access at least in bed when she was CCing at 25 as an HB8. But it’s still a long line of guys, and so she can do what she wants with them. Vis-a-vis these guys, she has tremendous market power, and she uses it. I see this all the time with this small, select group of women at this age — they know they are relatively rare, they know their power, and they use it (as you would expect them to).

    If a woman at this age wants to MARRY, well that’s a different story, because the guys who want to marry her are typically not the ones she wants, and she has trouble accessing the ones she wants for that (they’re marrying younger women). But if she just wants to mosey along and play orbiters off each other, the attractive woman of that age can do that 24/7 with no issue and have a permanent line of thirsties outside her door 24/7 as well.

    The answer for men, of course, is to date younger women. Not because these woman are unattractive — they’re not. But because of the power dynamic due to their *relative* market power in a market where there are so few, in relative terms, highly attractive women compared to younger age ranges. [In this way it’s similar to the effect that people talk about in terms of obesity inflating average female perceived SMV — if there are so many fat girls, just not being fat means you have pretty good SMV as a woman, so you have increased power in the market just by not being fat. In the 40s, if you’re one of the few who really is well put together in a sea of women who have let themselves go to one extent or other, you’re at the top of the pack and you have significant SMV in that range as a result of that.] Date younger women, and you’ll find that the women in this range don’t have as much power vis-a-vis you, because you’re playing in more than one pool, and she has a harder time competing with women in the younger pool.

    There are, of course, pitfalls at all ages. Women in their early 30s are also very hard to deal with in some ways due to the ticking clock and the race to lockdown the best BB they can get. So that’s another challenging range for different reasons. Either way, you have to know the market you’re in, and, as a man, play the expanded market, age-wise, so as not to become beholden to the artificially increased SMV/power of the women in this position.

  74. @Tuff
    this arrangement is new to me, and look, it’s not lovely or perfect.

    I think for folks our age this is an ideal situ

  75. I guess I don’t understand getting back with the ex…ever. My first wife cheated on me and we had two kids under 10. I immediately kicked her out and filed for divorce (“…why don’t you get an apartment and the kids and I will stay in the house?” – nope, GET OUT!).

    I would go to pick the kids up and once in a while she’d wander out in a bra and panties and chat. Nothing. You cheat, the hammer comes down and DONE!

    I even made her change her name back – I told her she didn’t deserve my last name.

  76. ASD

    She didn’t like the guy…

    Didn’t like him, yet she is still bringing him up “occasionally”…

    Watch what they do and all right? Why would she bring him up?

    1. Attracted. Attracted does not need to equal “like”. Not a choice right?
    2. Testing you, jealousy plot line. comfort test?
    3. Testing you, goading “let’s you two fight” plot line.
    4. Testing you, are you a cuck?

    AWALT right? PUA rule make “emotional impact” number 1. Fits right in here.

    If a woman catches on EARLY enough, sure, she can remove herself from temptation…however, once she is lit up and bouncing off the walls, her self-control goes to zero and her libido goes sky-high.

    And so this happens… She didn’t like the guy…she avoided him on a trip to the bathroom and has never talked to him

  77. Blax

    I had nothing to fear from Mr Murphy. well this is mooted by his not being around… But on the theoretical, on the AWALT side of things you have to admit to the possibility that she could come upon who is higher net value than you, and would respond as programmed…

  78. @ Sentient

    Yup, awalt, so theoretically anything was possible. If I failed to remember that, potentially iIcould find myself blindsided and in a world of shit.

  79. @Sentient

    Mrs. Gamer wasn’t lit up…I stopped watching her after I saw that…I was busy dancing with other women. Mr. Hands made a negative emotional impact on Mrs. Gamer and that was it. He never demonstrated value, so he crashed and burned. Mrs. Gamer said that Hands was drunk and Mrs..Gamer doesn’t tolerate drunks…low value in her eyes.

    Mrs. Gamer wasn’t lit up about the bodybuilder PUA when she danced with him during group dance lessons. All the other girls were watching the BB PUA with high interest, but Mrs. Gamer didn’t even notice him which she said when I asked her about him (“Who?”). Her romantic tastes are eccentric and run to smart religious geeks who wear glasses. From grade school on.

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