Deep Conversion

conversion

About four years ago Nick Krauser dropped a quick-hit post on his blog called Deep Conversion. I made a mental note in my head about this concept back then because, in spite of the brevity of it, I really thought Nick was on to something much more significant. The direction of my recent discussions both on this blog and a few other forums I read got me thinking about Nick’s observations.

I had an old reader (who want’s me to believe he’s a new reader) dig back through my archives and reheat an old debate about conflating my post about women’s concept of love with, “women are incapable of love – at all.” Over the five years that this blog’s been online I’ve gone to great lengths to define my position on the differing concepts of love either gender holds, and what influences the origins of love for either gender. I wont do a remedial post to reassert my points on this here. If you’re new reader and unfamiliar with that expansive series of posts I’ll refer you the Love category on my side bar links. However, to restate the premise for today’s post so everything is clear:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

In its simplicity this speaks volumes about about the condition of Men. It accurately expresses a pervasive nihilism that Men must either confront and accept, or be driven insane in denial for the rest of their lives when they fail to come to terms with the disillusionment.

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

That bolded part there was always emphasized for a very important reason – to avoid the misperception in men that women are entirely incapable of love, and to make a distinction about men’s Blue Pill hope that a woman could love him according to his idealistic concept of love. As I said, there is an expansive series on my ideas about this, and it requires an (I believe rewarding) investment of time and comprehension in understanding them. Sorry, but there is no TL;DR version here.

When I wrote this, and during my deliberating it, I fully expected to get this most common response I get from men still stinging from a more cynical Red Pill awakening. And that is the want to believe that women’s Hypergamy prevents them from ever feeling a “genuine” love or a genuine desire for men beyond what their most immediate opportunistic need may be according to their sexual strategy – short term breeding or long term security. Generally, it’s newly unplugged guys who want to accuse me of not thinking it all the way through because I need some hopeful rationale to justify my 20-year marriage, or they think I’ve never considered Briffault’s Law.

Concepts & Expectations

I expected all of this when I wrote my early essays on men and women’s differing concepts of love. And while I’ve covered the idea of love being a complementary arrangement between men and women each holding differing concepts in prior essays, one thing I haven’t explored is what Nick calls the “Deep Conversion” a woman goes through and what she feels for a man with whom she genuinely falls in love with.

Nick refers to this process as a kind of ‘soul surrender’ in which a woman recognizes a Man’s inherent value to both her short term sexual, and long term security needs. From her perception, this guy represents her Hypergamous ideal. Such is his sexual market value in relation to her own that it puts all but the most deeply rooted doubts of his quality to rest for her and opens her to associating him with an emotional state.

I should also point out that this emotional state needn’t always be a positive association; just that the association he represents is an ideal situation her hindbrain interprets as Hypergamously optimal. If that dynamic seems like a recipe for potential abuse you’re not too far from the mark. This conversion comes as a result of a woman’s perception of her Hypergamous need and her own SMV in comparison to what she believes that man’s  SMV is in relation. Shaking a woman out of the devotion she has with an abusive husband/boyfriend is really shaking her out of the perception that he represents her Hypergamous ideal.

That optimal state is also qualified by her own self-perception of her sexual market value, and again prioritized by her most necessitous needs for her phase of maturity. However, given all these variables, that man’s perceived value to her Hypergamy is always valued as higher than her own. Hypergamy never seeks its own level, but always looks for a better-than deserved SMV comparison. In terms of SMV ratios-to-attachment Deep Conversion takes place somewhere between a 2:1 to 3:1 variance.

Most guys are simply incapable of inspiring this kind of total soul surrender and devotion in a women. Most women never get to feel it and instead must get off on Deep Conversion Lite through sugar-rush books like 50 Shades of Grey. It’s the difference between spinning plates with fuck buddies and having a genuine harem where all your girls are exclusive to you. The women aren’t aligning with you out of cold calculation or temporary strung-out groupie lust, the connection runs far far deeper and feels wholesome to both of you.

This was an excellent observation on Nick’s part, however, I think it’s important to consider this bit in terms of why most men are incapable of instilling a Deep Conversion state in women. The first reason is that most men (being Beta) already presume that any woman who would find them suitable for a monogamous commitment must already feel this sense of Deep Conversion otherwise they’d never agree to that commitment. This is part of the Blue Pill conditioning for Beta men – any girl who says “yes” to him must necessarily see him as her Hypergamous ideal. Most men lack the Red Pill awareness that women regularly make long term relationship decisions based on security needs, not because that guy represents her Hypergamous ideal.

Women would rather cry over an asshole than be saddled with a guy who bores them to tears. That doesn’t sell very well with Blue Pill men raised on Disney dreams, but women readily get into LTRs where the Beta they pair with is no comparison to the Alpha she’s widowed from; for whom she had a Deep Conversion with. And as Nick says, this is when they look to manufacture their own indignation and the excitement they lack in cheap (but safe) substitutes.

Another reason most men never experience this is because, due their Blue Pill conditioning, never give themselves permission to become the conventionally masculine men with a dominance that women need in order to feel this conversion for him. Most Blue Pill men have been taught a default deference to women. Theirs is one of a ‘Nice’, passive sensitivity to a woman’s perceived wants, rather than a dominant knowing of her need which is born from a lifetime of learning to place his mental point of origin on the whims of women.

This may be my own interpretation, but I would also argue that both a woman’s evolved psychological filtering (testing) of a man’s Hypergamous qualifications and her socialized sense of self (ego) contribute to a woman resisting this Deep Conversion for a man. As a lot of men in the Married Red Pill and DeadBedroom subredd forums will attest, it’s entirely possible to spend your life with a woman who will never feel this conversion with a man.

Deep Conversion

Done correctly deep conversion is the most satisfying experience possible between a man and a woman. So long as you keep the elements in place, it has no natural time limit. I had my ex-wife in this state for eight of the nine years we were together (losing it only when I lost my mojo) and I’ve had four girlfriends in the past two years in the same position. I’ve got a few more on the boil now. It’s really not very hard to do if you have the following core competencies in place:

  1. An unshakeably strong frame. You are special, you know you’re special, and your masculinity is stratospheric compared to the chumps around you.
  2. Cheerful misogyny. You love women but don’t take them seriously. This is more than just the attraction phase teasing. You genuinely believe women are more like dogs or children, meaning they are a delight when well-lead and a nightmare when left ill-disciplined without a pack leader. It’s empathetic but not weak or equalist.
  3. Direction. Your life must be a straight line in a Deida-esque manner. Whether it’s your music, philosophy, career, fitness your life contains several arrows pointing the same direction… towards building the archetype of a fully developed man. If you are one-dimensional the girl will hold back.
  4. Sexual mastery. Understand that women crave dominance above all else in the bedroom. Give her the kind of sex that penetrates her soul. This isn’t high-fitness sport sex and G-spot finding. Those men will keep a woman around as her sexual provider, the guy she goes to when she wants a good fucking, the bedroom equivalent of a qualifying beta chump. A sexual master rocks a girl psychologically so even a half-assed knee trembler in a public toilet has her dreaming for weeks afterwards. The girl dreams of pleasing him, not him pleasing her.

All four elements increase with age if you live your life correctly. I don’t want to write too much about it and certainly the book will never be released. Just be aware that it has it’s own ego traps, its own risks…. but it is possible. When you’re tired of the notch-carousel you might want to look into it.

Much of what Nick is outlining here is Red Pill 101 and I’d also add that Roissy’s original 16 Commandments of Poon would fill out this list more completely. What I’m exploring here, however, is the concept of how this Deep Conversion fits into the framework of men and women’s individualized concepts of love. On the one hand I have men who are critics tell me I’m in error because women’s opportunistic concept of love doesn’t meet their criteria for what love ought to be between a man and a woman – a mutually shared, unconsciously agreed upon, concept that aligns with men’s idealistic (love for love’s sake) concept.

Yet still, they don’t disagree with my assessment that women’s concept of love is rooted in optimizing their innate Hypergamy and manifests as an beneficent opportunism (beneficent in terms of quality control for the human race, not necessarily for men). This is where the conflict starts. If a male-idealistic concept of love is the correct one, and women lack a capacity to understand, appreciate or engage in that concept in a genuine, organic fashion then women entirely lack the capacity for love as men would define it. This is the deductive logic that tears men up when I explain men and women’s differing concepts of love. Their definition has to be the correct one, and if it is then women cannot love men. For guys reeling from the initial hopelessness that their Blue Pill world was always an exploitative fantasy, it’s hard for them to accept that their concept of love is only subjectively correct for them.

Blue Pill Idealism

Much of this hopelessness stems from the all-is-equal mentality that the Blue Pill sells us when we’re being raised by the ‘Village’ of pop-culture. Equalism is the religion of the Feminine Imperative, so Blue Pill men are conditioned to believe that men and women, being co-equal, co-rational agents, would necessarily share a common concept of love. As with everything egalitarian, that equalism outright denies any innate differences physically or psychologically that would separate men and women or make them adversarial in sexual strategy or purpose in life. This premise, of course, is deftly twisted by the Feminine Imperative to make feminine-primary sexual strategies and women’s concept of love, the socially correct expressions of ‘equalism’.

But therein lies men’s conflict. The same influences that convince men their idealistic concept of love is the mutually shared one are also the influences that convince men that satisfying women’s socio-sexual imperatives ought to be their life’s priority and their mental point of origin if they ever hope to achieve that idealized love state. Take this Blue Pill path to that idealistic state away from men, and you get very despondent guys who don’t believe women have a capacity to feel actual love for them. It all becomes jumping through hoops to create a feeling of love in women whose criteria for a love that originates in their opportunistic concept they must constantly qualify for.

Women critics of this differing love concepts dynamic, unsurprisingly, personalize every experience they have, their friends have or their family ever had by referring to examples of their own selfless acts of devotion to a certain man. It’s always a story about how they gave everything to a (often unappreciative, unreciprocating) man they felt some undying idealistic love for themselves, and how dare I impugn their sincerity in it?

And again, I’ll add that the only way they came to this idealistic love was through a Deep Conversion they had with a man who satisfied their Hypergamous opportunism long before they were ever inspired to those selfless acts of devotion and sacrifice. For every Alpha Widow woman who ever gave herself over to that conversion and surrendered her soul to a guy who never reciprocated it, there are a hundred Beta men who will never inspire that degree of devotion in the wives who settled on marrying them. Statistically, 80% of men (Betas) will never inspire the Deep Conversion that 10-20% of men women feel it for did.

The Red Pill Conversion

When I wrote The Love Experience I was asked to elaborate on a quote I’d made about men and women both having the capacity to love each other deeply and passionately:

“Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures.”

For men who innately cling to an idealistic concept of love, their own kind of Deep Conversion can come in the form of ONEitis and develop into some very unhealthy dependencies. One of the reasons ONEitis is so common among men is because their Blue Pill conditioning predisposes them to putting women’s needs above his own and they see that as the path to sustaining this True Love state – a state defined by their idealism.

For women, this Deep Conversion can only result from a man who so thoroughly satisfies her Hypergamous nature she’s willing to abandon her own sexual strategy. And, like the guy with ONEitis, she dedicates herself to the one guy she was able to (she thinks) lock down who was a better-than-deserved Hypergamous prospect. Women get very upset when this dedication is questioned (not unlike the ONEitis guy) because they’ve generally abandoned furthering their sexual strategy by investing their egos into a guy who satisfied their Hypergamous natures. To doubt that devotion is to doubt the wisdom of her investment – and that goes down to her evolved biology and psychology in that choice. I should note here that Alpha Widows are born from this conversion.

However, for all of that inherent risk, and despite men and women’s differing concepts of love, men and women can and do come together in individual states of love (that they often believe the other shares) that are ‘genuine’ to them and also last a lifetime. I would argue that this state cannot exist without a woman’s Deep Conversion occurring after, and as a process of, her testing and evaluating the quality of the man she feels it for. And I would also argue that a man who commits himself to this woman must also feel some sense of his idealistic concept of love being validated by that woman who has devoted herself to him.

Under the old social contracts, and under the old set of books, this conversion in men and women was likely something much easier than it is today. Women are distracted by social and cultural influences that distorts their ever truly understanding their greatly diminishing value to men, and at the same time places so many men so far below women in general that this conversion and devotion will always seem demeaning to them – even for men who exceed them in SMV.

However, this Deep Conversion state is not an impossibility and it is not impossible to sustain it in a Red Pill aware paradigm. In fact, I’ll say that Red Pill awareness and internalized Game is really the only way to sustain it in an era of Open Hypergamy where Blue Pill conditioning of men is the norm, and women’s expectations of men are ridiculously low, but standards are ridiculously exaggerated.

For the Red Pill / Game aware guy, understanding this conversion and how to inspire it is something he ought to contemplate since so much of a woman’s ego becomes invested in her devotion to him once that conversion takes place. Conversely, Red Pill men should also understand, as Nick explained about his ex-wife, that this conversion is always tentative upon his own capacity to perpetuate it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] About four years ago Nick Krauser dropped a quick-hit post on his blog called Deep Conversion. I made a mental note in my head about this concept back then because, continue […]

theasdgamer
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Lol, this post is right on cue.

The first reason is that most men (being Beta) already presume that any woman who would find them suitable for a monogamous commitment must already feel this sense of Deep Conversion otherwise they’d never agree to that commitment.

Most men cannot read a woman’s emotions and determine her level of commitment to him.

The purpose of “The Taming of the Shrew” was to teach men this thing.

IAS
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@Rollo: seems like a RP man seeking a deep conversion end state in a monogamous relation would be very close to trying to get a BP goal with RP knowledge. Which is not advisable.

Can you clarify?

Atticus
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So Krauser has the Deep Conversation with his wife
and it’s great for 8 years until he loses his mojo. A year later it’s over….right. That was Deep.

I don’t buy it. Words have definitions and no matter what my Blue Pill conditioning, love until you lose your mojo is not love. Women can’t love, they use you as long as you’re useful and hamster that as love.

Unfortunately Rollo, we will never know who’s right.

SJF
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@IAS It is not the man who is deeply converted, it is the woman who deeply converts. In the battle for sexual strategy, He Won. She submitted. Her dual sexual strategy being AF/BB (with BB being safety for her and her children). In this deep conversion paradigm, the man is just out of reach of her converting him for her safety. (And hence set up for future potential Alpha Widow.) <blockquote: The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies: For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own. Hence this paragraph in the OP: For… Read more »

scribblerg
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First off, just wanted to share this with you guys. Not all phones are bad, and not all millennials are SJWs. I’m trying to breathe a breath of fresh air politically, hmmm. Enjoy a win, even if I didn’t vote. Was the weirdest election for me ever – couldn’t participate but terrified of Hillary. I was terrified about Obama too, and of course he exceeded my fears. At any rate, this put a smile on my face… HB rating? As for the article, jesus fuck, i’m bracing myself for the comments. @Rollo – At what point does “Deep Conversion” turn… Read more »

IAS
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@SJF: I understood that, it just seems that thinking of having a deeply converted woman as an ideal end goal seems very close to the classic BP ideal.

SJF
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@Rollo On a technical note, under the new current formatting, when something is formatted in blockquotes, then bolding if a sentence–if formatted that way–will not occur. So in the original post, the following sentence loses its strong or bold characteristics. Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of. …….. That bolded part there was always emphasized for a very important reason – to avoid the misperception in men that women are entirely incapable of love, and to make a distinction about men’s Blue… Read more »

A Wise Man
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Great article. I’ll add that one must possess strong alpha characteristics to inspire and sustain deep conversion in a woman; e.g. dominance and leadership. If a man is unable, or perhaps too uncomfortable due to social conditioning, to dominate and lead his woman, she will never experience deep conversion.

Ironically, his belief in equality and the type of love this leads him to believe women are capable of is precisely what prevents him from cultivating the kind of characteristics which would actually bring a woman to love him in a way that on the surface most closely resembles his ideal.

Not Born This Morning
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This line of reasoning is where you lose most people and obviously you recognize it. It is easily interpreted as if, on a fundamental level, you are preaching against what you are preaching. Men love idealistically Women love opportunistically Men who want to be woman’s opportunity are beta Men who don’t care are alpha Both types of men are the duplicitous opportunities women love A man who,optimizes both in himself is the most loved by women A man who optimizes both for the sake of woman’s love is by definition beta. It is essentially a never ending beta circular do… Read more »

ATTICUS
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Dafuq. Deep conversation is:

1. Strong Frame
2. Cheerful Misogny (Amused Mastery?)
3. Direction (Mission /mental point of origin)
4. Sexual Mastery

This is standard red pill repackaged as a new term that generates oneitis in women, until it doesn’t. Come on.

EhIntellect
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“The purpose of “The Taming of the Shrew” was to teach men this thing.”

What I forgot from last night:

…you’ve always ben the romantic one…I’ve got a lot to learn…I love being with you, not only sexually but just being around you….

With all humility I profess deep conversion can be done. I can be taught and teach, she can be taught, 17 years in. Millady is no different than yours.

A Wise Man
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@scribblerg Personally, I will not allow a woman to deep convert to me for the reasons you mentioned. Of course she’s obsessed and of course one becomes the center of her world, and if this type of behavior from a woman disturbs you then don’t be an idiot. Moreover, describing it as healthy or unhealthy behavior isn’t really helpful here because it really depends on the direction the man is taking her. Does the man plan on making her the mother of his children and raising a family together, or is he going to dump her when a tighter younger… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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“And I would also argue that a man who commits himself to this woman must also feel some sense of his idealistic concept of love being validated by that woman who has devoted herself to him.”

But…

1. Is that devotion even really possible in the face of unrelenting hypergamy?

2. Is his idealistic love validation really nothing more than a delusion and isn’t he risking becoming a casualty of unrelenting hypergamy by believing in that validation?

You have written volumes that define and answer those two questions:

1. NO

2. YES

SJF
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“….it just seems that thinking of having a deeply converted woman as an ideal end goal seems very close to the classic BP ideal.” Not if the relationship is complementary. And the man’s mental point of origin is his own. He can always walk away. And he gets to make the choice. (And would be wise to choose a more beautiful and more feminine woman. One he surmised had lasting beauty and femininity.) As Franco would describe it; The Alpha attitude is the attitude you need to assume to be attractive to women to the maximum level. The attitude is… Read more »

Agent P
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@Rollo, where did you get that photo of me and my wife? Great article as always. Side note with respect to political earthquakes, the coming of Kek and all that. It is often said, quite rightly, that most men come to the Red Pill due to some personal earth shattering catastrophe. As such I wonder given the catterwalling going on now in the US if indeed there might be some meta-quake in the FI. Not all men will feel it but some, a few, may well have the insight to be able to see some glitches in the matrix as… Read more »

cheupez
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cheupez
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I think at some point, it gets old for all of us.

Auvergnat
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@Atticus If you were right, how come women maintain some permanent, ideal “love” for the Alpha that got away (or worse, the one no man will ever be able to compare to, the Alpha who died)? According to what you mention (War Brides dynamics), they should be able to move on quickly to the next best option she can get. Yet, years later, they still think about him. So I think Rollo is onto something. I don’t think this “deep conversion” of women is the very equivalent of men’s “ONEitis”, but I’d agree there seems like there is such a… Read more »

SJF
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For the record, behind impudence, Franco’s second quality of the Alpha Male and the Alpha Attitude is Leadership.

I add that because Leadership can and should mitigate the fear or worry of having deep converted the woman.

Agent P
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@NBTM Loops, yes, define your own loop and let her occupy it. But you must own the loop. Part of the anger phase of RP is of course coming to terms with “women can never love me like that”, “Opportunistic bitches etc” but we all know that passes. I was so happy when I got to the phase where I realized A. I will never “love” like I loved before. It relieved me of a great burden. i then eventually got to a different place, I can love women like I love my children but with some extra sparkle thrown… Read more »

J.A.F.Y.K.
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@ Scribblerg, I’d say HB8 but then again if you live in a small city she might as well be a 10. @Rollo: Great article, lots of typos. I’m sure you are very busy and you can afford an editor. Why not get one? Or use Grammarly, which is better than MS-Word. As far as the article goes. I’ve always maintained that victory over self is the biggest thing one can accomplish because once that is accomplished, the sky is the limit. I say this because, it seems like there are so many layers to Red Pill Awareness / Game… Read more »

Atticue
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@Auvergnat

Woman love what they can’t have; desire what eludes them. They always wonder what they missed and what could’ve been. It’s their nature to always look for better. It’s what made our species dominate and the human male the apex predator on this planet.

Alpha Widow is just a term for old lady regret that she wasn’t good enough to lock that one down.

Not Born This Morning
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“Deep conversion” is at best temporary, and those who expect to manifest it in order to facilitate validation of idealistic unconditional love really never succeed because the need for idealistic unconditional love is born from insecurity and lack of self respect which are primary turn offs. The quest for unconditional love is a coping mechanism for insecurity and lack of self respect. Those who do not love themselves enough to respect themselves and be secure with themselves are showing the world their self perceived value how they expect to be treated. This is why the insatiable desire and longing for… Read more »

Agent P
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@scribs.
I’ll give her an 8. You cannot hear a girls politics when your dick is in her mouth anyhow. Let’s hope she doesn’t shoot her own pussy, would be a shame she looks like some fun.

Perhaps you have not yet noticed Glen, you are a fucking crazy magnet. Sure Sex with crazy is a ton of fun, but you know the rule, don;t stick your dick in crazy.

Deep conversion when maladaptive simply sounds like cluster B time.

theasdgamer
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@scrib

HB rating?

HB9mm

scribblerg
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As for the topic at hand, I would also frame it that the woman gives up her “reservation”. I’ve noticed this in many women overtly, while with their spouses/bfs. I called them “better dealer” girls. The one’s who were open to upgrading had this way of being and kind of scorning their mate as a shit test but also as an advertisement of availability. It can be done quite subtly and covertly, a stolen glance, slight roll of the eye while only you are looking as the mate talks, or sometimes just a sour look. Only saw it in my… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Alpha Widow = Old Maid = fell down or off the hypergamy ladder of penis rungs.

theasdgamer
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@scrib

At what point does “Deep Conversion” turn into obsession?

It seems to me that Deep Conversion implies total submission, so that she goes out of her way to avoid annoying her man. Obsessive behavior means that she is strongly attracted, but not necessarily submitted. Attraction by itself won’t bring about Deep Conversion.

theasdgamer
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Yeah, I get exactly what he’s talking about. Yeesh, harems sound like a lot of work.

NotReally, once you achieve unconscious competence.

M Simon
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A woman’s concept of love is not too different from a man’s –If You Can Get Her To Stay Bonded.

Bonding is not taught much to women these days. My mother knew how to do it. The LTR has difficulty. But at least for this week I’m making some progress. Bonding brings her peace.

Sentient
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Scribblerg

Rating… 6.x maybe 7.x face distorted by pose. To me a rather average plain face. Little pear shape going on. Would bang.

Rollo

I believe a lot of deep conversion is not reached because hypergamy is so often never fully satisfied in the age of birth control. So few get the object of the hypergamous drive… The kids.

So are left feeling unfulfilled…

Atticus
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There is no Deep Conversation!!! It’s just being a masculine man bearing the burden of performance. Once you stumble carrying that lifetime pack of rocks, you’re thrown to the curb as was Krauser.

Then again carrying a pack of rocks your whole life should make a pretty fuckiing strong man. Unless you stumble.

bookooball
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“love until you lose your mojo is not love”….according to a man’s idealized concept of love.

You are completely missing the point.

Love is a FEELING… something men analyze, and women experience. To say women can’t feel it, even temporarily, is asinine. Clear your mind and stop thinking like a male for a second.

Atticus.
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Atticus.
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My apologies for constantly typing conversation rather than conversion. Dafuq is wrong with me.

YaReally
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http://sev.h-cdn.co/assets/16/15/1460762152-tumblr-m8piye7dmt1raofpio1-500.gif Here comes mean ol’ YaReally lol @IAS “@Rollo: seems like a RP man seeking a deep conversion end state in a monogamous relation would be very close to trying to get a BP goal with RP knowledge.” Yup. This is just repackaged “True Love” from a guy (Krauser, not Rollo) who’s 1) getting tired of the fuckbuddy lifestyle and going to start down the Roosh road of “you know guys, the real TRUE game is to monogamously settle with a girl who’s soul is intertwined with your soul” nonsense as he gets older, and who 2) runs a low… Read more »

bookooball
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ever hear term “un-game”

basically, make her run for the hills by being a sensitive beta.

Beartraps are too big to trap a tiny fox.

J.A.F.Y.K.
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@ Rollo: I know you’re not one to delve into politics and religion. So, I’m not sure the best way to ask it or if anything will come of it but I’ll take my chances. Although, I don’t vote, I’ve always been under the impression that had Hilary won we’d have fallen deeper into the FI landscape. I suppose being on this site has me thinking that. Is there a chance you can make a post on how either candidate’s election would have influenced the FI state of America as we know it? One other thing. I post a lot… Read more »

YaReally
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Sorry, this needs a slight addition that I didn’t think of till I read Sentient’s birth control bit: “when it’s really just an expansion of a thing he’s not doing properly (either by choice (ie – I try to purposely AVOID this situation) or by lack of knowledge (Krauser’s style of low emotional-impact game))” That should have also said “or by external circumstances preventing it (birth control, logistical issues, lack of time, etc)” The point is if you don’t do ABC you don’t get D, but ABC is what Mystery Method is teaching and what it’s supposed to look like.… Read more »

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Love is a word; with a definition. If it’s one experience for men and another for women we need two different words.

As to men analyzing love, tell that to the guy that watches another man fuck his wife to make her happy. Or the guy that takes his wife back after he found out 2 of his 3 kids weren’t his.

Lot of analysis going on there.

Culum Struan
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YaReally Sentient HABD Wala Scray Hank Forge and PUA Just a quick note to say I’m back in the Big City and the November blitz is starting for the next 2-3 weeks. I’m a bit busier with work than usual but I’m still planning to go out 11-14 days in the rest of November. And I’ll be following the comments and stuff a lot more closely from now – was too busy for the last couple weeks. Had a quick solo visit to some hotel bars last night when I got in from my flight – some opens but nothing… Read more »

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@Not Born This Morning ““Deep conversion” is at best temporary, and those who expect to manifest it in order to facilitate validation of idealistic unconditional love really never succeed because the need for idealistic unconditional love is born from insecurity and lack of self respect which are primary turn offs.” Uh. I saw the LTR as deeply committed (about 1/2 of her psychology) 40+ years ago. My work has been to make that her dominant expression. We still joke about her “loss of sense” when it comes to me. She also gets why I get hit on (madly) from time… Read more »

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@JAFYK “Furthermore, how much does race play a factor in hypergamy/dating.” Certain minorities have certain stereotypes attributed to them that may give you an initial level of value to the girl. But that becomes completely irrelevant when you run proper game, she removes you from the category of “indian asexual dude similar to Apu or a guy who works in I.T.” and puts you in a category of “attractive guy” where you’re an “other” in her mind…you just AREN’T like “those” guys and she even expects YOU to know that about yourself. As the old mantra goes: PUA is the… Read more »

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@Rollo
“but he changed such that the deep conversion shifted”

Then it was just attraction. Good ol’ normal “there when you trigger her hypergamy, gone when you stop triggering her hypergamy (for whatever reason)”. No reason to give it some mystical name that makes guys think they might be able to cheat the system and not have the burden of performance or have to pass shit-tests or “keep their mojo” up (having bottle model jobs, having good mindsets (Blax), etc).

Like, there’s just no reason to repackage/relabel this is all lol

scray
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Eh, it doesn’t really work like presented. “Deep conversion” (which appears to be shorthand for inspiring true passionate love in a woman” except fooooorrreeeeeever — lol btw dudebros) is definitely a mix of alpha and beta . It’s the exact right mix for that particular woman at that particular time in her life to where the cognitiive dissonance between “this man is alpha and cannot be tamed” and “this man could be mine” dominates her mind. So what is it? The game played very well. THAT IS ALL. NOTHING MORE TO SEE HERE. If you plot raw attraction against ASD/pre-emptive… Read more »

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“Direction. Your life must be a straight line in a Deida-esque manner.” nah. let go instead. “Whether it’s your music, philosophy, career, fitness your life contains several arrows pointing the same direction” nah. it’s more like a bunch of figure eights. or wheels “… towards building the archetype of a fully developed man.” lol. “self-improvement is masturbation. self destruction….” If you are one-dimensional the girl will hold back. maybe. unless that one dimension trips her circuits. then that’s all you need. if pussy is even what you want. “For the Red Pill / Game aware guy, understanding this conversion and… Read more »

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“Atticue, you’re looking at this from a male-idealist perspective. From a female-opportunist perspective those 8 years were deep for her, but he changed such that the deep conversion shifted. That may seem horribly duplicitous to our concept of love, but from a woman’s it makes perfect sense. In fact, so much so that it’s a formulaic plot for romantic stories.” Rollo Love is love, or t’s not. The Greeks had three kinds of love, but we use one word and it fucks men up. I’m not making a moral judgement on women’s “love” (it’s good to be past the anger… Read more »

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@Agent P – Busted, guilty as charged. But I can also generally handle the crazy, hence my bad advice to Softek here a while back. I saw a chance to make a lane changer, epiphany girl degrade herself and commit depravity to keep him around but then again, she might just chop his head off. Had a 1 night stand who was crazy as fuck who had a gun, she mentioned it once, told her i knew, this was after i’d treated her like a barnyard animal, which she’d loved. @ADSGamer – “HB9mm” so obvious yet made me giggle. For… Read more »

scray
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@JA Furthermore, how much does race play a factor in hypergamy/dating. Ah, I know this one well. Non-white you should generally just subtract a point off of whatever you think your rating is. It may be slightly more for like….Asian non-white, slightly less for black non-white, and maybe (MAYBE) significantly less for latino non-white. But 1 point is a good guideline wrt to looks. You didn’t say, but you should also take a point off for every 2.5 inches of height you are below 5’10. And you can add a point for good style. You can also add a point… Read more »

AnnoyingGorilla
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There is a running streak of sentimentalism through this and recent threads. Guys in LTRs offering up detailed credentials with the obvious flavour of redirected male idealism writ large. I am of the 20 year OMG ilk too but, this strain of virulent domesticity on here, sends me back to the sometimes blunt language of TRP.
Deep conversion? Deep complacency.

fleezer
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“Nope, no cheat codes sorry.” bullshit. pua stuff that is routine now would have been almost unthinkable two generations ago and would have appeared very much like magic or a cheat code to our grandfathers if a successful pua was able to travel back in time and apply his craft in front of a pua class. to conclude there are no more cheat codes is premature and self defeating. her brain is a networked system and it seems like systems that evolve via natural selection have plenty of room for surprises, shortcuts, backdoors, happy mistakes…. you yourself found one with… Read more »

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@scray “The game played very well.” This lol That’s why I say it’s just Mystery Method. MM isn’t all about only being a super aloof alpha, there’s the rapport and comfort shit in there too. This is just flipping ALL the switches properly. But Krauser is a guy who stubbornly sticks to his style of game he’s marketed himself as having, so he’s just not flipping all the switches often and when he does it seems like something “special” to him so out comes a new label. “If you plot raw attraction against ASD/pre-emptive rejection, you’d probably see a U.… Read more »

hank holiday
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Whoa. What happened last night? What did I write? That doesn’t sound like me. That sounds like GBFM Wait…. No… Could it be….. I’m GBFM….. It all makes sense now. The lack of sleep….its all because that’s when I switch over to being GBFM. lol Anyway, let me translate what I wrote last night. kno a guy, he’s white tho. supeer white tho. biught me my drinks sincei called trump. anyway saw him months ago w/ asia girls. was like threesok e lol you o guy, but juts biz. he was super impressed i called trump. he was like how… Read more »

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“There is a running streak of sentimentalism through this and recent threads” good. I felt good as hell talking to my dad after the world series. playing catch with your old man in the backyard is something I hope every boy experiences. accepting the truth about the indifference of nature does not preclude a man from looking back fondly on certain events and or times of his life. in fact, I think it can sometimes help him to determine his next moves the other day I got sentimental as fuck over a bottle of young vine musigny I drank ten… Read more »

theasdgamer
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But like, idk, you can just tear through so many ONS (and ghost or not put any effort into it) going full “alpha trait mode,” and the girls won’t chase. Now you can say ‘oh that’s just your game scray” but idk….whenever I toss some beta traits in there, all of a sudden the girls chase. I covered this in my post about relationships…girls need comfort and validation, the giving of which are beta behaviors… I really don’t give a fuck if I get called a beta for doing some beta stuff…it’s necessary in a relationship…a little goes a long… Read more »

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@hank
“Could it be…..”

lol’ed hard at your drunk FR and even harder at the absolutely perfect Fight Club pic.

The sad part is I totally understood your drunk FR lol I’ve written a few of those myself sad

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@pua

also someone give me some tips on my text game from a couple days ago plz k thx bye

https://therationalmale.com/2016/11/04/blue-pill-alphas/comment-page-6/#comment-177907

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@theasdgamer “I really don’t give a fuck if I get called a beta for doing some beta stuff…it’s necessary in a relationship…a little goes a long way…you still need lots of alpha behavior…creating tingles and drama…give a girl a complete emotional feast…she won’t feel like she needs orbiters to give her comfort and validation” This goes back to everyone flipping their shit on Scray because he said some behaviors are “beta”. The Manosphere has this “beta = bad, alpha = good” James Bond “only ever be alpha 100% 24/7 or else if you do ONE beta thing, even if it… Read more »

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@hank “also someone give me some tips on my text game from a couple days ago plz k thx bye” You solved it yourself in that FR lol Spike them and get them on the phone ASAP where you can communicate more subcomms and engage them deeper (and keep them engaged in ONE conversation instead of the 10 txt convos she has going (though even then I’ve known some girls who can talk on the phone with headphones while simultaneously carrying on txt conversations with their friends on the same phone (AND send me screenshots OF those txt convos happening… Read more »

constrainedlocus
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This is a great post. Greatly appreciated. In Nick’s own post he recommends to readers to listen to Billie Holiday’s “Easy Living” tune lyrics – a song from a woman swallowed whole by her “deep conversion” to a man: https://youtu.be/RX7TA3ezjHc Living for you, is easy living. It’s easy to live when you’re in love. And, I’m so in love, There’s nothing in life, but you. I’ll never regret the years I’m giving. They’re easy to give when you’re in love. I’m happy to do whatever I do, for you. For you…maybe I’m a fool, but it’s fun. People say you… Read more »

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@theasdgamer Following up my response to you there, was this excellent post by Pellaeon at the end of the SMV Aging Process article that probably no one saw so I’m cut and pasting it: @Scray “ok well this whole mindset stuff just seems an awful lot like a way to hamster everything under the sun as alpha ‘so long as you FELT LIKE IT BRO’ … you can’t be 100% super alpha unless you’re planning on a life of just ONS and that’s it. so if you want any female companionship beyond that, you’re going to rely on some beta… Read more »

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@yareally

You solved it yourself in that FR lol Spike them and get them on the phone ASAP where you can communicate more subcomms and engage them deeper

yeah but it didn’t really work. it got their attention, but mostly only because they went “okay, what the fuck does that mean, and who the fuck is this.” I didn’t really get to spike them much.

Should I just call them at their first response?

Me: #MAGA

Her: What is that?

call her on voice

I just didn’t really have any luck on getting them very engaged on text.

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@Hank: I laughed heartily when I read your drunk post smile

Sentient
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Fun little instadate this morning… 9am Going to a cafe. Long line out the door. Place packed. Smoking hot blond and her mom last in line. Shit try to scrabble over across the street. By the time i get there two old ladies are in front. Damn. This girl was maybe 19… Full model quality and from what I could observe between her and her mom a sweet girl. Unicorn hunters brimg a rope… So no open of her. Would have been interesting with mom there. Never done that. Any how they get seated way off. Now im up and… Read more »

AnnoyingGorilla
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From reminiscences of an old wine into a bloody old set of song lyrics. Polishing vulnerability game tonight.
Cheers Krauser!

M Simon
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AnnoyingGorilla
November 11, 2016 at 12:57 pm

I don’t care much for “deep conversion”. I like the term bonding better.

YaReally
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@hank “Me: #MAGA Her: What is that? call her on voice” You got it. It doesn’t have to make sense remember. All you need is to trigger enough curiosity for her to pick up the phone because on the phone is where you’re going to do the actual gaming instead of over txt. ie – don’t think “how can I get her Attracted and then call her”, think “how can I get her to pick up the phone so I can get her Attracted” Tyler joked that recently he was trying stuff like promising the girl a romantic dinner on… Read more »

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@M Simon “I don’t care much for “deep conversion”. I like the term bonding better.” ya, the term “conversion” itself is the main thing that bothers me (aside from there being no point to differentiating it really). Conversion implies like, hey, you CHANGED her, now you can sit back and relax, she’s CHANGED, she’s been CONVERTED. She’ll “un-convert” as soon as you stop triggering her Hypergamy properly lol so it’s not really a conversion, or it’s temporary enough a conversion to not be worth naming it that when that word comes with so many connotations to guys learning about the… Read more »

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@yareally Most of the Manosphere has never ACTUALLY studied MM in depth and is working off what they THINK MM is, and is still chasing that retarded Chad Thundercock James Bond version of “alpha” and LARP’ing about beta/alpha hey playdontpay! all this PUA shit doesn’t sit right with me, seems a lot like dancing monkeys or performing clowns, you are the equivalent of court jesters trying to amuse “her majesty” so that she will fuck you! Fuck that! Not for me I have to much self respect for all that shit! On here we have Hank holiday talking about “designing… Read more »

Seven Dials
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Here’s another way of looking at the whole “women don’t love the way men want them to” thing. All our relationships have some conditionality. There will be behaviour that each of us won’t want to be around again from even our closest friends or family. What might that be? Your bestest buddy tells you he needs an alibi to escape a murder rap. Did he do it? Pshhh. Of course he did: she laughed at the size of his dick, so he killed her. I’ll leave that one as an exercise in moral philosophy 101. My guess is most people… Read more »

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@Sentient
“Stupidly i am going away from my hotel…”

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Rollo: “Yes, it was sustaining her attraction, but there’s a marked difference between a woman for whom you represent her Hypergamous ideal and one who’s attraction is just a casual thing.” YaReally: “Yes, but that’s just degrees of the same thing. That’s like saying “there’s a marked difference between a medium pizza and a large pizza so we’re going to call a large pizza a banana”. They’re the same thing, one is just further up the scale than the other, there’s no actual difference except in degree and no functional difference and no reason to relabel one of them and… Read more »

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@SJF

I don’t see this as the same thing as properly executed PUA game. Because of different goals.

comment image

mindset strikes again!

Even though it LITERALLY is the same thing externally, somehow the intent changes everything. Oh Em Gee!

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constrainedlocus
November 11, 2016 at 1:34 pm

Bonding is not something you can create. You can provide the essentials but the bond is from her. It is almost immaterial what you do.

Either the chemistry is there. Or it is not.

Sentient
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Yareally

Lol… Tbh it was so early in the morning not sure if i would have been that up for a romp just then… Like i was just out to get some coffee…

Left out one part… She was talking about what she needs in a guy “that he be fun and exciting”…

DPA bros…

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SJF
November 11, 2016 at 2:06 pm

The change from unbonded to bonded is quite material. The number and level of shit tests goes way down. Way, way, down.

She has made a decision. And you know how hard it is to get a woman to decide.

The LTR made her decision 40+ years ago. It has taken that long to teach her that making the decision irrevocable is better for her. It brings her peace.

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@Rollo So yes, it’s about sustaining attraction, but the depth of that attraction depends on how well a guy fits her ideal of Hypergamous optimization, and that according to her awareness of her own conditions and SMV according to where she finds herself in life. scray already explained this… lol… this is just ‘basic’ calibration… If you plot raw attraction against ASD/pre-emptive rejection, you’d probably see a U. At the lower end she’s on guard for fear of sleeping with or doing something silly with a low quality man. At the higher end she’s on guard for just being a… Read more »

anon
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“HB9mm”

That was clever. smile

scray
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@sentient

Left out one part… She was talking about what she needs in a guy “that he be fun and exciting”…

DPA bros…

you listening to what she she says she wants in a guy and taking it seriously = beta trait bros.

Sentient
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Scray

Lol. Grow up. Unplug.

Observe what they do…

YaReally
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@SJF “The bigger degree is the point.” It’s irrelevant though. What does that bigger degree of investment get a guy? Nothing. She will 180 on him in a War Brides situation and will lose Attraction if he stops triggering Hypergamy. “but he was talking about the girl being all into him” Like I said, this is what MM and traditional PUA teaches. “Once again, not about the girl investing, but the degree of her investing.” It’s just irrelevant. A large pizza IS bigger than a medium pizza, but it’s just a pizza. There’s no point calling it a banana. It… Read more »

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@sentient

lol follow your own advice mister “OMG GUESS WHAT SHE SAID SHE LIKES! SHE VALIDATED MEEEEE YAAAAAAY!”

i mean….

fleezer
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“”Those aren’t cheat codes though. They’re just “how things actually work, but our social conditioning has blinded us to seeing/accepting that”. they are cheat codes because looks do in fact matter all across nature. symmetry, color, a lion’s mane…. for sexually reproductive species with some kind of visual sense, looks do matter or else energy would not be expended to display them or analyze them for clues to fitness but if you know the cheat code (all cheats are different. some allow you extra hit points, or offensive weapons while others allow you to jump levels or access secret areas)… Read more »

Sentient
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Scray

Women love sad and boring…

Be something other than pointless…

scray
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@rollo “You and Scray are explicitly saying you want the girl to stop short of full investment, right?” NO LOL Literally we are saying that WHATEVER YOU WANT WITH A GIRL pretty much will depend on the balance between alpha and beta traits. if you want to sleep with her quickly you will need more alpha than beta. however, if you want her to fall in love with you, you will need some beta in there. like you can do whatever the fuck you want. we’re just saying ‘here’s how you do this and how you do that, and it’s… Read more »

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@fleezer “lol. if you can get a “deep conversion” regularly then it’s not really a deep conversion. and it’s not just a larger pizza.” “but outside of guys like Manson, you can’t make her willing to violate her most deeply held moral convictions or go to prison for you in a night. no fucking way.” That’s what guys who can’t get deep conversion regularly think because it’s an outlier special thing that happens. It’s LITERALLY laid out in Mystery Method, that Julien video, etc how to purposely trigger that deep a connection. Fucking Blue Pill jizzing all over this place… Read more »

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Straight up: who here has legitimately read Mystery Method cover to cover and watched his seminars where he explains stuff in more depth (and ideally gone out and followed MM start to end a bunch, but I’ll settle for even just actually reading it lol)? And who here has watched that Julien clip I linked up above (and ideally some more RSD clips about that subject)? Like, we’re having a conversation where where one side is WILDLY misinformed or lacking education about the subject and thinks that the baseline thing that we DO is some special magic that can only… Read more »

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@sentient

oh….welp your direct approach worked well because an asian 8 is a white 7 and if she’s 30 she’s like a young white 6 and because you’ve mentioned you’re a fairly good looking guy, well, there you have it.

we gotta get you approaching hb9 18-24 year olds.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0YrRbiEDUew/UwpQwl6Qx4I/AAAAAAAAW7M/kyTXGy7jpi8/s1600/300-spear-pantheon.gif

point.

Joe K
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I still disagree Rollo – and as you know, I wrote out a lengthy response on each post you cross-referenced with specific reason-based counterpoints.

From an old Reddit thread I just came across today, some poster named ‘OldRedder’ sums it up better than I did, in fact:

“Love doesn’t get 2 different meanings based on which gender expresses it. Flat out: women exploit, take, lie and repeat. They have the audacity to call it love, to be 100% selfish.”

Sentient
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Scray. Pointless… Increasingly so. And your math lately is hysterical… You are a guy going around rating yourself on a HB scale and playing mixy matchy on numbers while saying looks dont matter etc out of the other side of your mouth. And then the gifs…

Prediction – when you become a dynamic, passionate and authentic guy then you will get it. Bookmark this for that day, should it ever come.

#ITYS

YaReally
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@fleezer The reason you guys think it can’t be done quickly is because it took you a long time to groom it in your girls, so you assume “well I’m awesome, and it took me X time and circumstances (to hit the right switches partly consciously and partly by fluke)” and can’t imagine that you can build that “go to jail for you” connection FAST. And you’ll just disqualify any girls we do it with as “oh well that wasn’t a REAL connection” or “oh that was just a certain type of girl” etc etc because this goes outside of… Read more »

Sentient
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Question. Who here has satisfied hypergamy… Over the long haul… Who has had ride or die girls. Who has had women bear their offspring?

At least Mystery has…

scray
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@sentient just because you don’t really get the point doesn’t mean there isn’t a point. but feel free to ask questions to clarify some issues you have trouble with. and no i’m not rating myself, but cool assumption. there are plenty of places where you can get yourself and your photos rated. it’s not mixy matchy. it’s field tested. anybody who is out in the field will probably have similar observations about how race and height and others shit affect your passive SMV. while saying looks dont matter etc out of the other side of your mouth. it’s only “out… Read more »

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Me: “I don’t see this as the same thing as properly executed PUA game. Because of different goals.” Scray: “Even though it LITERALLY is the same thing externally, somehow the intent changes everything.” There goes your confirmation bias again. What I am saying is that in my opinion I don’t think it is the same thing externally. STR vs. LTR. The intent is exactly the same. Having good PUA game and deep conversion are the same thing internally. And once again precisely because: “The MRP sub is littered with stories of guys whose wives love them well enough, and may… Read more »

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Scray

If you are following your advice you are rating yourself on the scales you point to….

Scratch off “authentic”… Start over.

YaReally
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@Sentient
“Who has had women bear their offspring?”

lol the only reason I don’t have a fucking ARMY of baby YaReallys out there is because of condoms. But the VAST majority of the girls I fuck would HAPPILY get preggers by me or try to stick it in raw (running on their hindbrain emotions in the moment BECAUSE I’M RUNNING PROPER GAME TRIGGERING THEIR HYPERGAMY lol) etc

TIL guys don’t really know what PUA is. wtf.

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@ Rollo a comment by me without any links in reply to Scray got eaten by Moderation.

“….wtf are you guys DOING infield??”

LoL can I have the definition of infield for all of us OMG’s spiking attraction deep converting our wives.

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