Deep Conversion

conversion

About four years ago Nick Krauser dropped a quick-hit post on his blog called Deep Conversion. I made a mental note in my head about this concept back then because, in spite of the brevity of it, I really thought Nick was on to something much more significant. The direction of my recent discussions both on this blog and a few other forums I read got me thinking about Nick’s observations.

I had an old reader (who want’s me to believe he’s a new reader) dig back through my archives and reheat an old debate about conflating my post about women’s concept of love with, “women are incapable of love – at all.” Over the five years that this blog’s been online I’ve gone to great lengths to define my position on the differing concepts of love either gender holds, and what influences the origins of love for either gender. I wont do a remedial post to reassert my points on this here. If you’re new reader and unfamiliar with that expansive series of posts I’ll refer you the Love category on my side bar links. However, to restate the premise for today’s post so everything is clear:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

In its simplicity this speaks volumes about about the condition of Men. It accurately expresses a pervasive nihilism that Men must either confront and accept, or be driven insane in denial for the rest of their lives when they fail to come to terms with the disillusionment.

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

That bolded part there was always emphasized for a very important reason – to avoid the misperception in men that women are entirely incapable of love, and to make a distinction about men’s Blue Pill hope that a woman could love him according to his idealistic concept of love. As I said, there is an expansive series on my ideas about this, and it requires an (I believe rewarding) investment of time and comprehension in understanding them. Sorry, but there is no TL;DR version here.

When I wrote this, and during my deliberating it, I fully expected to get this most common response I get from men still stinging from a more cynical Red Pill awakening. And that is the want to believe that women’s Hypergamy prevents them from ever feeling a “genuine” love or a genuine desire for men beyond what their most immediate opportunistic need may be according to their sexual strategy – short term breeding or long term security. Generally, it’s newly unplugged guys who want to accuse me of not thinking it all the way through because I need some hopeful rationale to justify my 20-year marriage, or they think I’ve never considered Briffault’s Law.

Concepts & Expectations

I expected all of this when I wrote my early essays on men and women’s differing concepts of love. And while I’ve covered the idea of love being a complementary arrangement between men and women each holding differing concepts in prior essays, one thing I haven’t explored is what Nick calls the “Deep Conversion” a woman goes through and what she feels for a man with whom she genuinely falls in love with.

Nick refers to this process as a kind of ‘soul surrender’ in which a woman recognizes a Man’s inherent value to both her short term sexual, and long term security needs. From her perception, this guy represents her Hypergamous ideal. Such is his sexual market value in relation to her own that it puts all but the most deeply rooted doubts of his quality to rest for her and opens her to associating him with an emotional state.

I should also point out that this emotional state needn’t always be a positive association; just that the association he represents is an ideal situation her hindbrain interprets as Hypergamously optimal. If that dynamic seems like a recipe for potential abuse you’re not too far from the mark. This conversion comes as a result of a woman’s perception of her Hypergamous need and her own SMV in comparison to what she believes that man’s  SMV is in relation. Shaking a woman out of the devotion she has with an abusive husband/boyfriend is really shaking her out of the perception that he represents her Hypergamous ideal.

That optimal state is also qualified by her own self-perception of her sexual market value, and again prioritized by her most necessitous needs for her phase of maturity. However, given all these variables, that man’s perceived value to her Hypergamy is always valued as higher than her own. Hypergamy never seeks its own level, but always looks for a better-than deserved SMV comparison. In terms of SMV ratios-to-attachment Deep Conversion takes place somewhere between a 2:1 to 3:1 variance.

Most guys are simply incapable of inspiring this kind of total soul surrender and devotion in a women. Most women never get to feel it and instead must get off on Deep Conversion Lite through sugar-rush books like 50 Shades of Grey. It’s the difference between spinning plates with fuck buddies and having a genuine harem where all your girls are exclusive to you. The women aren’t aligning with you out of cold calculation or temporary strung-out groupie lust, the connection runs far far deeper and feels wholesome to both of you.

This was an excellent observation on Nick’s part, however, I think it’s important to consider this bit in terms of why most men are incapable of instilling a Deep Conversion state in women. The first reason is that most men (being Beta) already presume that any woman who would find them suitable for a monogamous commitment must already feel this sense of Deep Conversion otherwise they’d never agree to that commitment. This is part of the Blue Pill conditioning for Beta men – any girl who says “yes” to him must necessarily see him as her Hypergamous ideal. Most men lack the Red Pill awareness that women regularly make long term relationship decisions based on security needs, not because that guy represents her Hypergamous ideal.

Women would rather cry over an asshole than be saddled with a guy who bores them to tears. That doesn’t sell very well with Blue Pill men raised on Disney dreams, but women readily get into LTRs where the Beta they pair with is no comparison to the Alpha she’s widowed from; for whom she had a Deep Conversion with. And as Nick says, this is when they look to manufacture their own indignation and the excitement they lack in cheap (but safe) substitutes.

Another reason most men never experience this is because, due their Blue Pill conditioning, never give themselves permission to become the conventionally masculine men with a dominance that women need in order to feel this conversion for him. Most Blue Pill men have been taught a default deference to women. Theirs is one of a ‘Nice’, passive sensitivity to a woman’s perceived wants, rather than a dominant knowing of her need which is born from a lifetime of learning to place his mental point of origin on the whims of women.

This may be my own interpretation, but I would also argue that both a woman’s evolved psychological filtering (testing) of a man’s Hypergamous qualifications and her socialized sense of self (ego) contribute to a woman resisting this Deep Conversion for a man. As a lot of men in the Married Red Pill and DeadBedroom subredd forums will attest, it’s entirely possible to spend your life with a woman who will never feel this conversion with a man.

Deep Conversion

Done correctly deep conversion is the most satisfying experience possible between a man and a woman. So long as you keep the elements in place, it has no natural time limit. I had my ex-wife in this state for eight of the nine years we were together (losing it only when I lost my mojo) and I’ve had four girlfriends in the past two years in the same position. I’ve got a few more on the boil now. It’s really not very hard to do if you have the following core competencies in place:

  1. An unshakeably strong frame. You are special, you know you’re special, and your masculinity is stratospheric compared to the chumps around you.
  2. Cheerful misogyny. You love women but don’t take them seriously. This is more than just the attraction phase teasing. You genuinely believe women are more like dogs or children, meaning they are a delight when well-lead and a nightmare when left ill-disciplined without a pack leader. It’s empathetic but not weak or equalist.
  3. Direction. Your life must be a straight line in a Deida-esque manner. Whether it’s your music, philosophy, career, fitness your life contains several arrows pointing the same direction… towards building the archetype of a fully developed man. If you are one-dimensional the girl will hold back.
  4. Sexual mastery. Understand that women crave dominance above all else in the bedroom. Give her the kind of sex that penetrates her soul. This isn’t high-fitness sport sex and G-spot finding. Those men will keep a woman around as her sexual provider, the guy she goes to when she wants a good fucking, the bedroom equivalent of a qualifying beta chump. A sexual master rocks a girl psychologically so even a half-assed knee trembler in a public toilet has her dreaming for weeks afterwards. The girl dreams of pleasing him, not him pleasing her.

All four elements increase with age if you live your life correctly. I don’t want to write too much about it and certainly the book will never be released. Just be aware that it has it’s own ego traps, its own risks…. but it is possible. When you’re tired of the notch-carousel you might want to look into it.

Much of what Nick is outlining here is Red Pill 101 and I’d also add that Roissy’s original 16 Commandments of Poon would fill out this list more completely. What I’m exploring here, however, is the concept of how this Deep Conversion fits into the framework of men and women’s individualized concepts of love. On the one hand I have men who are critics tell me I’m in error because women’s opportunistic concept of love doesn’t meet their criteria for what love ought to be between a man and a woman – a mutually shared, unconsciously agreed upon, concept that aligns with men’s idealistic (love for love’s sake) concept.

Yet still, they don’t disagree with my assessment that women’s concept of love is rooted in optimizing their innate Hypergamy and manifests as an beneficent opportunism (beneficent in terms of quality control for the human race, not necessarily for men). This is where the conflict starts. If a male-idealistic concept of love is the correct one, and women lack a capacity to understand, appreciate or engage in that concept in a genuine, organic fashion then women entirely lack the capacity for love as men would define it. This is the deductive logic that tears men up when I explain men and women’s differing concepts of love. Their definition has to be the correct one, and if it is then women cannot love men. For guys reeling from the initial hopelessness that their Blue Pill world was always an exploitative fantasy, it’s hard for them to accept that their concept of love is only subjectively correct for them.

Blue Pill Idealism

Much of this hopelessness stems from the all-is-equal mentality that the Blue Pill sells us when we’re being raised by the ‘Village’ of pop-culture. Equalism is the religion of the Feminine Imperative, so Blue Pill men are conditioned to believe that men and women, being co-equal, co-rational agents, would necessarily share a common concept of love. As with everything egalitarian, that equalism outright denies any innate differences physically or psychologically that would separate men and women or make them adversarial in sexual strategy or purpose in life. This premise, of course, is deftly twisted by the Feminine Imperative to make feminine-primary sexual strategies and women’s concept of love, the socially correct expressions of ‘equalism’.

But therein lies men’s conflict. The same influences that convince men their idealistic concept of love is the mutually shared one are also the influences that convince men that satisfying women’s socio-sexual imperatives ought to be their life’s priority and their mental point of origin if they ever hope to achieve that idealized love state. Take this Blue Pill path to that idealistic state away from men, and you get very despondent guys who don’t believe women have a capacity to feel actual love for them. It all becomes jumping through hoops to create a feeling of love in women whose criteria for a love that originates in their opportunistic concept they must constantly qualify for.

Women critics of this differing love concepts dynamic, unsurprisingly, personalize every experience they have, their friends have or their family ever had by referring to examples of their own selfless acts of devotion to a certain man. It’s always a story about how they gave everything to a (often unappreciative, unreciprocating) man they felt some undying idealistic love for themselves, and how dare I impugn their sincerity in it?

And again, I’ll add that the only way they came to this idealistic love was through a Deep Conversion they had with a man who satisfied their Hypergamous opportunism long before they were ever inspired to those selfless acts of devotion and sacrifice. For every Alpha Widow woman who ever gave herself over to that conversion and surrendered her soul to a guy who never reciprocated it, there are a hundred Beta men who will never inspire that degree of devotion in the wives who settled on marrying them. Statistically, 80% of men (Betas) will never inspire the Deep Conversion that 10-20% of men women feel it for did.

The Red Pill Conversion

When I wrote The Love Experience I was asked to elaborate on a quote I’d made about men and women both having the capacity to love each other deeply and passionately:

“Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures.”

For men who innately cling to an idealistic concept of love, their own kind of Deep Conversion can come in the form of ONEitis and develop into some very unhealthy dependencies. One of the reasons ONEitis is so common among men is because their Blue Pill conditioning predisposes them to putting women’s needs above his own and they see that as the path to sustaining this True Love state – a state defined by their idealism.

For women, this Deep Conversion can only result from a man who so thoroughly satisfies her Hypergamous nature she’s willing to abandon her own sexual strategy. And, like the guy with ONEitis, she dedicates herself to the one guy she was able to (she thinks) lock down who was a better-than-deserved Hypergamous prospect. Women get very upset when this dedication is questioned (not unlike the ONEitis guy) because they’ve generally abandoned furthering their sexual strategy by investing their egos into a guy who satisfied their Hypergamous natures. To doubt that devotion is to doubt the wisdom of her investment – and that goes down to her evolved biology and psychology in that choice. I should note here that Alpha Widows are born from this conversion.

However, for all of that inherent risk, and despite men and women’s differing concepts of love, men and women can and do come together in individual states of love (that they often believe the other shares) that are ‘genuine’ to them and also last a lifetime. I would argue that this state cannot exist without a woman’s Deep Conversion occurring after, and as a process of, her testing and evaluating the quality of the man she feels it for. And I would also argue that a man who commits himself to this woman must also feel some sense of his idealistic concept of love being validated by that woman who has devoted herself to him.

Under the old social contracts, and under the old set of books, this conversion in men and women was likely something much easier than it is today. Women are distracted by social and cultural influences that distorts their ever truly understanding their greatly diminishing value to men, and at the same time places so many men so far below women in general that this conversion and devotion will always seem demeaning to them – even for men who exceed them in SMV.

However, this Deep Conversion state is not an impossibility and it is not impossible to sustain it in a Red Pill aware paradigm. In fact, I’ll say that Red Pill awareness and internalized Game is really the only way to sustain it in an era of Open Hypergamy where Blue Pill conditioning of men is the norm, and women’s expectations of men are ridiculously low, but standards are ridiculously exaggerated.

For the Red Pill / Game aware guy, understanding this conversion and how to inspire it is something he ought to contemplate since so much of a woman’s ego becomes invested in her devotion to him once that conversion takes place. Conversely, Red Pill men should also understand, as Nick explained about his ex-wife, that this conversion is always tentative upon his own capacity to perpetuate it.

622 comments

  1. Lol, this post is right on cue.

    The first reason is that most men (being Beta) already presume that any woman who would find them suitable for a monogamous commitment must already feel this sense of Deep Conversion otherwise they’d never agree to that commitment.

    Most men cannot read a woman’s emotions and determine her level of commitment to him.

    The purpose of “The Taming of the Shrew” was to teach men this thing.

  2. @Rollo: seems like a RP man seeking a deep conversion end state in a monogamous relation would be very close to trying to get a BP goal with RP knowledge. Which is not advisable.

    Can you clarify?

  3. So Krauser has the Deep Conversation with his wife
    and it’s great for 8 years until he loses his mojo. A year later it’s over….right. That was Deep.

    I don’t buy it. Words have definitions and no matter what my Blue Pill conditioning, love until you lose your mojo is not love. Women can’t love, they use you as long as you’re useful and hamster that as love.

    Unfortunately Rollo, we will never know who’s right.

  4. @IAS

    It is not the man who is deeply converted, it is the woman who deeply converts.

    In the battle for sexual strategy, He Won. She submitted. Her dual sexual strategy being AF/BB (with BB being safety for her and her children).

    In this deep conversion paradigm, the man is just out of reach of her converting him for her safety. (And hence set up for future potential Alpha Widow.)

    <blockquote: The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:

    For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

    Hence this paragraph in the OP:

    For women, this Deep Conversion can only result from a man who so thoroughly satisfies her Hypergamous nature she’s willing to abandon her own sexual strategy. And, like the guy with ONEitis, she dedicates herself to the one guy she was able to (she thinks) lock down who was a better-than-deserved Hypergamous prospect. Women get very upset when this dedication is questioned (not unlike the ONEitis guy) because they’ve generally abandoned furthering their sexual strategy by investing their egos into a guy who satisfied their Hypergamous natures. To doubt that devotion is to doubt the wisdom of her investment – and that goes down to her evolved biology and psychology in that choice. I should note here that Alpha Widows are born from this conversion.

  5. First off, just wanted to share this with you guys. Not all phones are bad, and not all millennials are SJWs. I’m trying to breathe a breath of fresh air politically, hmmm. Enjoy a win, even if I didn’t vote. Was the weirdest election for me ever – couldn’t participate but terrified of Hillary. I was terrified about Obama too, and of course he exceeded my fears.

    At any rate, this put a smile on my face…

    HB rating?

    As for the article, jesus fuck, i’m bracing myself for the comments.

    @Rollo – At what point does “Deep Conversion” turn into obsession? I’ve had a handful, and a stalker actually, and wow, is it fun to fuck them…But it’s what I call “beartrap pussy”, it’s gonna latch on and you will not be able to take it off without severe damage. But seriously, I’ve seen this with other couples, the women is obsessed with the guy, and it seems quite suffocating in some ways. Doesn’t mean I disagree, I think this is very interesting and something I think I’ve observed although I can’t quite say where…

    Re: Harem vs. Fuckbuddy Plates

    Yeah, I get exactly what he’s talking about. Yeesh, harems sound like a lot of work.

  6. @SJF: I understood that, it just seems that thinking of having a deeply converted woman as an ideal end goal seems very close to the classic BP ideal.

  7. @Rollo

    On a technical note, under the new current formatting, when something is formatted in blockquotes, then bolding if a sentence–if formatted that way–will not occur.

    So in the original post, the following sentence loses its strong or bold characteristics.

    Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.
    ……..

    That bolded part there was always emphasized for a very important reason – to avoid the misperception in men that women are entirely incapable of love, and to make a distinction about men’s Blue Pill hope that a woman could love him according to his idealistic concept of love.

  8. Great article. I’ll add that one must possess strong alpha characteristics to inspire and sustain deep conversion in a woman; e.g. dominance and leadership. If a man is unable, or perhaps too uncomfortable due to social conditioning, to dominate and lead his woman, she will never experience deep conversion.

    Ironically, his belief in equality and the type of love this leads him to believe women are capable of is precisely what prevents him from cultivating the kind of characteristics which would actually bring a woman to love him in a way that on the surface most closely resembles his ideal.

  9. This line of reasoning is where you lose most people and obviously you recognize it. It is easily interpreted as if, on a fundamental level, you are preaching against what you are preaching.

    Men love idealistically
    Women love opportunistically
    Men who want to be woman’s opportunity are beta
    Men who don’t care are alpha
    Both types of men are the duplicitous opportunities women love
    A man who,optimizes both in himself is the most loved by women
    A man who optimizes both for the sake of woman’s love is by definition beta.

    It is essentially a never ending beta circular do loop where the man is jumping through hoops and chasing the carrot.

    The only solution? Break out of the loop. This does not mean MGTOW. It simply means recognizing women for what they are, expendable, replaceable. Discard them when no longer beneficial and or upgrade as desire and ability facilitates. Masculine hypergamy.

  10. Dafuq. Deep conversation is:

    1. Strong Frame
    2. Cheerful Misogny (Amused Mastery?)
    3. Direction (Mission /mental point of origin)
    4. Sexual Mastery

    This is standard red pill repackaged as a new term that generates oneitis in women, until it doesn’t. Come on.

  11. “The purpose of “The Taming of the Shrew” was to teach men this thing.”

    What I forgot from last night:

    …you’ve always ben the romantic one…I’ve got a lot to learn…I love being with you, not only sexually but just being around you….

    With all humility I profess deep conversion can be done. I can be taught and teach, she can be taught, 17 years in. Millady is no different than yours.

  12. @scribblerg Personally, I will not allow a woman to deep convert to me for the reasons you mentioned. Of course she’s obsessed and of course one becomes the center of her world, and if this type of behavior from a woman disturbs you then don’t be an idiot. Moreover, describing it as healthy or unhealthy behavior isn’t really helpful here because it really depends on the direction the man is taking her. Does the man plan on making her the mother of his children and raising a family together, or is he going to dump her when a tighter younger piece of ass comes along? My advice is to not allow a woman to deep convert to you unless you plan on creating a family with her. To deep convert her simply to have her obedience and devotion just for the sake of these things is cruel and immoral. Not to mention that when you turn her into an ‘alpha widow’ you potentially damage her from deep converting to another man in the future she could have had a family with. Of course, if one doesn’t care about the broader social and cultural impact his indulgences have, this advice will fall on deaf ears.

  13. “And I would also argue that a man who commits himself to this woman must also feel some sense of his idealistic concept of love being validated by that woman who has devoted herself to him.”

    But…

    1. Is that devotion even really possible in the face of unrelenting hypergamy?

    2. Is his idealistic love validation really nothing more than a delusion and isn’t he risking becoming a casualty of unrelenting hypergamy by believing in that validation?

    You have written volumes that define and answer those two questions:

    1. NO

    2. YES

  14. “….it just seems that thinking of having a deeply converted woman as an ideal end goal seems very close to the classic BP ideal.”

    Not if the relationship is complementary. And the man’s mental point of origin is his own. He can always walk away.

    And he gets to make the choice. (And would be wise to choose a more beautiful and more feminine woman. One he surmised had lasting beauty and femininity.)

    As Franco would describe it;

    The Alpha attitude is the attitude you need to assume to be attractive to women to the maximum level. The attitude is this:

    “In words, actions and omissions i speak, move and behave in such a way that I never ask for forgiveness about my personality and my sexual desire as a male. I am an impudent individual.”

    Keep in mind, though, that the classic BP Ideal is is to get the girl and then think he has made a completion in life–to rest on his laurels. It is still only a beginning, you neglect to figure in that the TESTing never ends.

    Witness Krauser’s losing his Mojo eight years in.

    LTR’s are an ongoing process. And have to be taken as they come.

    Franco:

    Women test continuously and in a very active way an Alpha male’s qualities…… After you have presented yourself to the woman with the Alpha attitude, she will start to conduct tests on you to see if you are Alpha or beta and her tests never end.

    In my opinion a sexually active woman, especially if she has a very strong sexual instinct, practically never stops testing her male’s Alpha qualities. Women do it in an unconscious and automatic way. It is practically a law of Nature and you need to get used to it.

    When you have learned the appropriate answers to the tests and learned to react to them in the appropriate way, this will seem to you as simple as eating and drinking.

    My experience is that the more beautiful and feminine a woman is the more numerous and difficult to overcome her tests will be. For this reason you need to keep your eyes – and especially your ears – open.

  15. @Rollo, where did you get that photo of me and my wife?

    Great article as always.

    Side note with respect to political earthquakes, the coming of Kek and all that.

    It is often said, quite rightly, that most men come to the Red Pill due to some personal earth shattering catastrophe. As such I wonder given the catterwalling going on now in the US if indeed there might be some meta-quake in the FI. Not all men will feel it but some, a few, may well have the insight to be able to see some glitches in the matrix as a result of the Trumpening. Perhaps they will see that the relentless swerve to the left has jumped the shark for them and it will force them to take stock of “their reality”. I am already seeing this with one or two millennial friends who were pretty much SJW’s but who have really had an awakening in the last week and are beginning to come to terms with the idea that perhaps they had way too much koolaid and should perhaps reconsider where they stand on a whole raft of issues and how they views those on the other side of the fence.

    In light of that I wonder if the ER down at the RP triage center might not see an uptick in men looking for help and direction trying to make sense of it all.

    To be sure, I think men need to be broken to some extent to be able to fully tear themselves down to the ground and build themselves back up in an RP frame. But perhaps younger padawan will take less ruthless methods to be rebuilt properly.

    Maybe I am daydreaming, perhaps not. My gut says we always want more RP men available in the world, not less.

  16. @Atticus

    If you were right, how come women maintain some permanent, ideal “love” for the Alpha that got away (or worse, the one no man will ever be able to compare to, the Alpha who died)? According to what you mention (War Brides dynamics), they should be able to move on quickly to the next best option she can get. Yet, years later, they still think about him.

    So I think Rollo is onto something. I don’t think this “deep conversion” of women is the very equivalent of men’s “ONEitis”, but I’d agree there seems like there is such a thing as a woman’s completely irrational infatuation for the Hypergamous ideal.

  17. For the record, behind impudence, Franco’s second quality of the Alpha Male and the Alpha Attitude is Leadership.

    I add that because Leadership can and should mitigate the fear or worry of having deep converted the woman.

  18. @NBTM

    Loops, yes, define your own loop and let her occupy it. But you must own the loop.

    Part of the anger phase of RP is of course coming to terms with “women can never love me like that”, “Opportunistic bitches etc” but we all know that passes.

    I was so happy when I got to the phase where I realized A. I will never “love” like I loved before. It relieved me of a great burden. i then eventually got to a different place, I can love women like I love my children but with some extra sparkle thrown on top because sex.

    I some times yearn for that feeling of puppy love, because hey, dopamine is a kick, but at the same time I don’t miss it because of what it would cost me in sanity and judgement. There can be no frame when you are in the midst of “romantic” obsession. It’s just nostalgia to think you can have it again. I miss how it energized me but I could never knowingly give myself over to that again. Besides, we get to this stage and we know their farts stink and arenot made of butterflies.

    I feel lucky that I have been disabused of the BP concept of love. It’s harder but its much more amenable to male agency to know that not only can you bend the spoon with your mind but that it doesn’t exist anyhow.

    I am happy to nourish her sense of love even if it is simply the hall of mirrors she inhabits known as hypergamy. With time it becomes easy enough and if it makes her happy, so be it. At this point I don’t care if its Beta or alpha, it’s something I am happy to do and its compatible with my general goals.

  19. @ Scribblerg, I’d say HB8 but then again if you live in a small city she might as well be a 10.

    @Rollo: Great article, lots of typos. I’m sure you are very busy and you can afford an editor. Why not get one? Or use Grammarly, which is better than MS-Word.

    As far as the article goes. I’ve always maintained that victory over self is the biggest thing one can accomplish because once that is accomplished, the sky is the limit. I say this because, it seems like there are so many layers to Red Pill Awareness / Game a man has to master to get his ideal state with a woman and while I know a guy out to do it for himself still a part of you can’t help but feel you’re doing it for a woman. So, if in the end a man does achieve this deep conversion in a woman, I guess the next question becomes, “Is this woman the best I can do?”. If that doubt is there seems like it’s time to start the process over. Sigh!

  20. @Auvergnat

    Woman love what they can’t have; desire what eludes them. They always wonder what they missed and what could’ve been. It’s their nature to always look for better. It’s what made our species dominate and the human male the apex predator on this planet.

    Alpha Widow is just a term for old lady regret that she wasn’t good enough to lock that one down.

  21. “Deep conversion” is at best temporary, and those who expect to manifest it in order to facilitate validation of idealistic unconditional love really never succeed because the need for idealistic unconditional love is born from insecurity and lack of self respect which are primary turn offs. The quest for unconditional love is a coping mechanism for insecurity and lack of self respect. Those who do not love themselves enough to respect themselves and be secure with themselves are showing the world their self perceived value how they expect to be treated. This is why the insatiable desire and longing for unconditional from another is pathetic.

  22. @scribs.
    I’ll give her an 8. You cannot hear a girls politics when your dick is in her mouth anyhow. Let’s hope she doesn’t shoot her own pussy, would be a shame she looks like some fun.

    Perhaps you have not yet noticed Glen, you are a fucking crazy magnet. Sure Sex with crazy is a ton of fun, but you know the rule, don;t stick your dick in crazy.

    Deep conversion when maladaptive simply sounds like cluster B time.

  23. As for the topic at hand, I would also frame it that the woman gives up her “reservation”. I’ve noticed this in many women overtly, while with their spouses/bfs. I called them “better dealer” girls. The one’s who were open to upgrading had this way of being and kind of scorning their mate as a shit test but also as an advertisement of availability. It can be done quite subtly and covertly, a stolen glance, slight roll of the eye while only you are looking as the mate talks, or sometimes just a sour look. Only saw it in my erstwhile wife in hindsight.

    A woman who gives up her reservation is one who’s not looking for an upgrade. I’ve met such women. I’ve had some women do this with me. I’ve had it actually make them lose value to me, like they don’t look as hot when they submit. Weird, yes? I’m a TofTC guy though, like it’s all about conquest and submission.

    HB9 trying to work out when we can get together so i can assfuck her silly, lol. it’s nice to have something on the go, and she’s a dirty girl, she sends pix and texts me about gagging on my cock. It’s wild. All from the Red Pill. Still my stupid long game, i’m like “uncle fuck buddy” or something to her, lol. It is an object lesson in the sense that a woman could fuck anyone – a point that Scray makes. Ugly guys are getting pussy. We have to work harder but then again, once the hook is sunk it’s great. She’s so submissive and responsive when now…

  24. @scrib

    At what point does “Deep Conversion” turn into obsession?

    It seems to me that Deep Conversion implies total submission, so that she goes out of her way to avoid annoying her man. Obsessive behavior means that she is strongly attracted, but not necessarily submitted. Attraction by itself won’t bring about Deep Conversion.

  25. A woman’s concept of love is not too different from a man’s –If You Can Get Her To Stay Bonded.

    Bonding is not taught much to women these days. My mother knew how to do it. The LTR has difficulty. But at least for this week I’m making some progress. Bonding brings her peace.

  26. Scribblerg

    Rating… 6.x maybe 7.x face distorted by pose. To me a rather average plain face. Little pear shape going on. Would bang.

    Rollo

    I believe a lot of deep conversion is not reached because hypergamy is so often never fully satisfied in the age of birth control. So few get the object of the hypergamous drive… The kids.

    So are left feeling unfulfilled…

  27. There is no Deep Conversation!!! It’s just being a masculine man bearing the burden of performance. Once you stumble carrying that lifetime pack of rocks, you’re thrown to the curb as was Krauser.

    Then again carrying a pack of rocks your whole life should make a pretty fuckiing strong man. Unless you stumble.

  28. “love until you lose your mojo is not love”….according to a man’s idealized concept of love.

    You are completely missing the point.

    Love is a FEELING… something men analyze, and women experience. To say women can’t feel it, even temporarily, is asinine. Clear your mind and stop thinking like a male for a second.

  29. Here comes mean ol’ YaReally lol

    @IAS
    “@Rollo: seems like a RP man seeking a deep conversion end state in a monogamous relation would be very close to trying to get a BP goal with RP knowledge.”

    Yup. This is just repackaged “True Love” from a guy (Krauser, not Rollo) who’s 1) getting tired of the fuckbuddy lifestyle and going to start down the Roosh road of “you know guys, the real TRUE game is to monogamously settle with a girl who’s soul is intertwined with your soul” nonsense as he gets older, and who 2) runs a low emotional impact style of game that doesn’t inspire this magic “Deep Conversion” in many girls so when it DOES happen it blows his mind because it’s rare for him and he starts thinking that because it’s the “outlier” to his experience, it must be some magic special new thing he’s discovered when it’s really just an expansion of a thing he’s not doing properly (either by choice (ie – I try to purposely AVOID this situation) or by lack of knowledge (Krauser’s style of low emotional-impact game)).

    @Atticus
    “So Krauser has the Deep Conversation with his wife and it’s great for 8 years until he loses his mojo. A year later it’s over….right. That was Deep.”

    lol “Deep Conversion” is just “triggering her Hypergamy for a long period of time”. The second you stop being her best Hypergamous option, the “Deep Conversion” dies. A girl who’s alpha widowed stays alpha widowed because that guy generally isn’t still in her life so she remembers him at his best (and extrapolates from that, ie – “he WOULD have done the right move in this situation because he did right moves before”) and he’s not around to “lose his mojo” or fail shit-tests or execute too many beta behaviors etc and no longer be her Hypergamous best option.

    War Brides were “Deeply Converted” until a warring tribe came in and killed all their men and became their new Hypergamous/survival best option and then suddenly those guys they were “Deeply Converted” to don’t mean shit to them anymore.

    This is all just fluff from a guy getting older (Krauser not Rollo) trying to find answers and label his game as sooper speshul sekret magic to probably sell a product down the road.

    Mystery Method wasn’t about just getting laid, it was about making girls fall in love with you, “Deep Conversion” style where she feels like your souls are intertwined and all that shit. This is just that, but relabelled and woo-woo’ed up.

    Hypergamy rules all. Deep Conversion is just “a lot of attraction for a long period of time” and goes out the window when you stop triggering her Hypergamy. There’s no point in giving it another label besides “really attracted to you” ’cause it just muddies the waters for men learning. “Oh I don’t want to just hook up, I want this DEEP CONVERSION STUFF!!! Especially as a Blue Pill guy discovering the Red Pill!!” Guess how you get “Deep Conversion”, you just do the same thing you do to get hook ups but take it further (aka execute Mystery Method PROPERLY and in FULL).

    @IAS
    “@SJF: I understood that, it just seems that thinking of having a deeply converted woman as an ideal end goal seems very close to the classic BP ideal.”

    That’s because it IS lol “Deep Conversion” is just a guy’s red pill attempt at finding True Unconditional Love, and he’s ignoring that as soon as he lost his mojo (aka stopped triggering her Hypergamy) suddenly it’s gone. THIS IS JUST STANDARD NORMAL ATTRACTION lol there’s no reason to put some other label on it except that when you don’t get much of it it seems like it’s a special secret and needs it’s own label.

    Here’s Julien explaining how to get “””””Deep Conversion”””””” by just following the standard pickup principles that give girls EMOTIONAL IMPACT and the full rollercoaster of emotions (positive and negative):

    This is just a guy who’s not running game “properly” accidentally running it properly and labelling it as something magical ’cause he doesn’t REALIZE/ACCEPT that he’s generally not running game properly (massive emotional impact and the full rollercoaster of emotions (positive and negative)).

    And because he’s getting old he’s hoping that “Deep Conversion” will be “Unconditional/True Love” ’cause fully swallowing the Red Pill and accepting that no matter how much she “loves” you if you stop triggering her Hypergamy she’s going to lose attraction for you, is too depressing for most guys to accept.

    If “Deep Conversion” doesn’t last when you stop triggering her Hypergamy then it’s just NORMAL ATTRACTION but LOTS of it lol But it’s the same shit that follows the same rules and is achieved the same way.

    @Atticus
    “This is standard red pill repackaged as a new term that generates oneitis in women, until it doesn’t. Come on.”

    This lol Glad other guys spoke up ’cause I was like “well this seems bullshitty but do I want to get into ANOTHER debate against the entire TRM crowd?” lol

    @SJF
    “LTR’s are an ongoing process. And have to be taken as they come.”

    This. ALL relationships are an ongoing process. Even the initial pickup is a second to second process. You can go up or down in value and you can be triggering her Hypergamy one minute and then not triggering it the next and her attraction goes up or down based on that…she may not instantly DUMP you the second she feels less attraction if you’ve invested in her and shit, like she might hold out hope that you’ll go back to triggering it ASAP, but she’s still going to feel less attraction, it’s hardwired, “Attraction is not a choice” and all.

    “Deep Conversion” = a disillusioned Red Pill guy’s label for “Unconditional Love” ’cause it gives him hope that he’ll be able to lock a girl down longterm as he gets older, but when he “loses his mojo” the girl will lose Attraction. That’s just how it goes.

    I’d even argue that using labels like “Deep Conversion” are as damaging to men as “Unconditional/True Love” or saying marriage/monogamy will make the girl stay with you etc because they give the guy a false sense of “if I do this thing she’ll just love my soul and then maybe I can relax and don’t have to deal with the burden of performance anymore”. Nope, no cheat codes sorry.

    She will continually test you and if you fail those tests by executing beta behaviors, she will lose Attraction, even if she felt like your souls were intertwined.

    @Auvergnat
    “If you were right, how come women maintain some permanent, ideal “love” for the Alpha that got away (or worse, the one no man will ever be able to compare to, the Alpha who died)?”

    Because he isn’t around to fail her shit-tests and lower his value to her and lose her Attraction. If he was around she might eventually come to see some of his weaknesses/flaws and he might fail tests or lose his mojo, but a dead man remains “perfect” so real life guys have a much higher bar to match to beat his value (but they CAN, see my next paragraph).

    “According to what you mention (War Brides dynamics), they should be able to move on quickly to the next best option she can get. Yet, years later, they still think about him.”

    The War Brides moving on is because Hypergamy isn’t just the best guy, it’s the best guy her hindbrain thinks she can reasonably get. ie – a dead guy technically no longer has survival/replication use to her VS the foreign barbarian that slaughtered her dead guy, and it’s necessary for her survival/replication for her to be able to focus her Hypergamy on these new guys.

    Whereas a woman who’s alpha just dies naturally and she’s put back into a modern day dating scene, will have a hard time getting over him because other guys aren’t going to compare to him and she doesn’t have the same survival/replication urgency that a War Brides tribe slaughter situation has. She has the “luxury” of being able to not get over him quickly.

    “I’d agree there seems like there is such a thing as a woman’s completely irrational infatuation for the Hypergamous ideal.”

    Agreed, but that’s just NORMAL ATTRACTION (done properly). As soon as he isn’t the Hypergamous ideal, it’s gone. There’s no reason to repackage it with another label except to muddy the waters, or make yourself (Krauser not Rollo) feel special, or sell a product.

    @Not Born This Morning
    ““Deep conversion” is at best temporary, and those who expect to manifest it in order to facilitate validation of idealistic unconditional love really never succeed because the need for idealistic unconditional love is born from insecurity and lack of self respect which are primary turn offs.”

    You got it.

    @Sentient
    “I believe a lot of deep conversion is not reached because hypergamy is so often never fully satisfied in the age of birth control. So few get the object of the hypergamous drive… The kids.”

    This. “Deep conversion” is just PROPERLY ATTRACTING HER lol It’s flipping ALL of the switches Mystery laid out instead of just flipping enough to get laid or keep a fuckbuddy around etc. Like I’ve said, the 7 hours Mystery thing wasn’t about just getting laid, you can get laid way faster than that, the 7 hours was the bare minimum to get her to “fall in love” with you.

    Birth control and men being pussies etc might make it harder for them to trigger her Hypergamy properly, but that doesn’t change that when you trigger it properly, you get this “deep conversion” which is just “LOTS OF ATTRACTION” and will STILL vanish when you stop triggering her Hypergamy (aka “lose your mojo”).

    Now if this shit could make it so she stays attracted even AFTER you’ve “lost your mojo” and are no longer triggering her Hypergamy, hey, cool, let’s give THAT a new label and discuss the dynamics of it.

    But what’s being described is just PROPERLY GAMING GIRLS lol

    inb4 “but YaReally you’ve NEVER had a girl DEEPLY CONVERTED!! You don’t understand TRUE LOVE!! You don’t understand souls! You talk about fuckbuddies so you’ve only been in the stereotypical shallow fuckbuddy arrangements and don’t understand any of this way deeper level shit we’re talking about, one day when you’re older you’ll understand what it’s TRULY like to have a woman TRULY surrender her SOUL to you”

  30. @ Rollo: I know you’re not one to delve into politics and religion. So, I’m not sure the best way to ask it or if anything will come of it but I’ll take my chances.

    Although, I don’t vote, I’ve always been under the impression that had Hilary won we’d have fallen deeper into the FI landscape. I suppose being on this site has me thinking that.

    Is there a chance you can make a post on how either candidate’s election would have influenced the FI state of America as we know it?

    One other thing. I post a lot of things that oppose the FI (especially with regard to equality/Feminism) and I’m met with argument that things are still not great for women and that as a minority myself, I ought to know better and be more sympathetic because it’s like a white man saying to me that things are better for minorities since slavery has been abolished and we have affirmative action etc. How do I respond to that?

    Furthermore, how much does race play a factor in hypergamy/dating. Does red pill awareness trump all that? I’ve been using Tinder and some other dating sites, I even go out to the clubs/ bars but no luck. I have no problem talking to girls or getting their #…I’d like to chalk it down to my game being weak but everyone makes it sound like Tinder, clubs, Halloween are the easiest situations to hookup. Not me, lol.

  31. Sorry, this needs a slight addition that I didn’t think of till I read Sentient’s birth control bit:

    “when it’s really just an expansion of a thing he’s not doing properly (either by choice (ie – I try to purposely AVOID this situation) or by lack of knowledge (Krauser’s style of low emotional-impact game))”

    That should have also said “or by external circumstances preventing it (birth control, logistical issues, lack of time, etc)”

    The point is if you don’t do ABC you don’t get D, but ABC is what Mystery Method is teaching and what it’s supposed to look like. This is a guy who’s game is based around running AB not getting D, who’s occasionally hitting AB AND C and getting D and labeling that as special shit when it’s really just what he’s technically “supposed” to be doing.

  32. Love is a word; with a definition. If it’s one experience for men and another for women we need two different words.

    As to men analyzing love, tell that to the guy that watches another man fuck his wife to make her happy. Or the guy that takes his wife back after he found out 2 of his 3 kids weren’t his.

    Lot of analysis going on there.

  33. Atticue, you’re looking at this from a male-idealist perspective. From a female-opportunist perspective those 8 years were deep for her, but he changed such that the deep conversion shifted. That may seem horribly duplicitous to our concept of love, but from a woman’s it makes perfect sense. In fact, so much so that it’s a formulaic plot for romantic stories.

  34. YaReally Sentient HABD Wala Scray Hank Forge and PUA

    Just a quick note to say I’m back in the Big City and the November blitz is starting for the next 2-3 weeks. I’m a bit busier with work than usual but I’m still planning to go out 11-14 days in the rest of November.

    And I’ll be following the comments and stuff a lot more closely from now – was too busy for the last couple weeks.

    Had a quick solo visit to some hotel bars last night when I got in from my flight – some opens but nothing to speak of.

    Big nights out planned tonight and tomorrow night.

    Priority: Focus on leading and escalating and not “letting things fizzle out”. Just gonna stay in set and move things forward with a view to P in V. Cleaning my apartment before I go out just inc ase.

  35. @Not Born This Morning
    ““Deep conversion” is at best temporary, and those who expect to manifest it in order to facilitate validation of idealistic unconditional love really never succeed because the need for idealistic unconditional love is born from insecurity and lack of self respect which are primary turn offs.”

    Uh. I saw the LTR as deeply committed (about 1/2 of her psychology) 40+ years ago. My work has been to make that her dominant expression.

    We still joke about her “loss of sense” when it comes to me. She also gets why I get hit on (madly) from time to time by other women. Keeps he on her toes.

  36. @JAFYK
    “Furthermore, how much does race play a factor in hypergamy/dating.”

    Certain minorities have certain stereotypes attributed to them that may give you an initial level of value to the girl. But that becomes completely irrelevant when you run proper game, she removes you from the category of “indian asexual dude similar to Apu or a guy who works in I.T.” and puts you in a category of “attractive guy” where you’re an “other” in her mind…you just AREN’T like “those” guys and she even expects YOU to know that about yourself. As the old mantra goes: PUA is the exception to the rules.

    “Does red pill awareness trump all that?”

    Yup. Not red pill awareness though, actually EXECUTING GAME trumps it. You can be all sorts of aware but it doesn’t matter, what matters is how you act in set lol

    “I’ve been using Tinder and some other dating sites,”

    Ditch online/Tinder dating. Don’t waste your energy on it, it’ll just fuck with your self-esteem. Same with if you’re short or ugly etc Because those sites don’t allow you to demonstrate your value (aka execute game), they reduce everything down to looks and some profile text that she may not even read if you aren’t her type looks-wise. If you’re a minority that isn’t considered attractive by her, or too short or ugly or whatever, she’s not going to bother reading your profile because she doesn’t WANT to be attracted to you because she’s already assuming you’re low value.

    Online stuff basically removes a ton of displays of value that you would be demonstrating if you engaged her in person…it’s like a beautiful car with a scratch on it and the profile pic is just a zoom-in of that scratch. If the person actually took that car for a test drive they’d probably love it, but all they see online is a close-up of that scratch and they extrapolate form there.

    If you aren’t a decent-ish looking average white dude bare minimum, don’t waste your time online. Most of the time it’ll just fuck with your self-esteem because you’ll hear how easy it is to get laid online (they won’t mention that it’s often by average/ugly chicks though) and when your inbox is empty you’ll just start to feel like YOU are unattractive. It’s just not good for your inner confidence to bother with it.

    Ditch the online shit and hit the field to game in person. Whatever Apu from 7-11 attributes she labels you with if she sees you from across the room will be obliterated when you start spiking her emotions and then she takes you out of that category. Social circle game (VS cold approach) can help too, since you get an automatic value boost from having social circle value.

    “I even go out to the clubs/ bars but no luck. I have no problem talking to girls or getting their #…I’d like to chalk it down to my game being weak but everyone makes it sound like Tinder, clubs, Halloween are the easiest situations to hookup. Not me, lol.”

    Post Field Reports and we can help you narrow down where you’re fucking up in your live interactions and can help you tighten that up. Otherwise it’s just a guessing game to help ya.

    Most of my good wings have been minorities and lots of my social circles have a bunch (because they’re usually the ones who weren’t getting laid and had REASON to learn game lol)…it always comes down to the same thing: the ones with decent game (learned or Natural or just happening to flip the right switches by fluke when they’re hammered) get laid, the ones with shitty game don’t lol

  37. @Rollo
    “but he changed such that the deep conversion shifted”

    Then it was just attraction. Good ol’ normal “there when you trigger her hypergamy, gone when you stop triggering her hypergamy (for whatever reason)”. No reason to give it some mystical name that makes guys think they might be able to cheat the system and not have the burden of performance or have to pass shit-tests or “keep their mojo” up (having bottle model jobs, having good mindsets (Blax), etc).

    Like, there’s just no reason to repackage/relabel this is all lol

  38. Eh, it doesn’t really work like presented.

    “Deep conversion” (which appears to be shorthand for inspiring true passionate love in a woman” except fooooorrreeeeeever — lol btw dudebros) is definitely a mix of alpha and beta .

    It’s the exact right mix for that particular woman at that particular time in her life to where the cognitiive dissonance between “this man is alpha and cannot be tamed” and “this man could be mine” dominates her mind.

    So what is it?
    The game played very well.

    THAT IS ALL. NOTHING MORE TO SEE HERE.

    If you plot raw attraction against ASD/pre-emptive rejection, you’d probably see a U. At the lower end she’s on guard for fear of sleeping with or doing something silly with a low quality man. At the higher end she’s on guard for just being a sex object and there being no possibility the guy would actually stay. In the sweet spot, her guard is completely down.

    =

    twwwwu wuuuuuuv souuuulmates wuvvvofmyliiiiife.

    I mean, I’m torn at this point, because as a man, I personally want to believe that raw attraction controls all. But like, idk, you can just tear through so many ONS (and ghost or not put any effort into it) going full “alpha trait mode,” and the girls won’t chase.

    Now you can say ‘oh that’s just your game scray” but idk….whenever I toss some beta traits in there, all of a sudden the girls chase.

    You really do make the rules. And they follow them.

    But ya you can generate the “we’re soulmates, you’re my sun and moon” bullshit pretty easily.

    Sorry to say for all you cosmic unconditional love hopefuls.

  39. “Direction. Your life must be a straight line in a Deida-esque manner.”

    nah. let go instead.

    “Whether it’s your music, philosophy, career, fitness your life contains several arrows pointing the same direction”

    nah. it’s more like a bunch of figure eights. or wheels

    “… towards building the archetype of a fully developed man.”

    lol. “self-improvement is masturbation. self destruction….”

    If you are one-dimensional the girl will hold back.

    maybe. unless that one dimension trips her circuits. then that’s all you need. if pussy is even what you want.

    “For the Red Pill / Game aware guy, understanding this conversion and how to inspire it is something he ought to contemplate”

    agree.

    three things I can think of so far that a guy should experience via women

    1. genuine desire. experience this one early (and of course often and in perpetutity) as it helps set the stage for the others in that it is not performance based but nucleotide based and demonstrates that attraction does not require a man to be “fully developed” at all.

    2. owning one. deep conversion. when it’s going really well it sounds like abuse but it’s not. it’s harmony

    3. King Louis style. see the laws of power about his favorite mistress who instead of being a brat and throwing a fit as she got older, simply accepted the truth about her smv and brought him all the young pussy he could handle, knowing that he would get bored with each one in a short time so her power would never be threatened as long as she kept his mind engaged. of course in this case she wasn’t a deep conversion and was simply playing the power game, but the only way for most men to experience anything like the harem of the king is to do a deep conversion first and then force her into the position of having no choice but to offer up the young strange in order to keep her place. this is why dread game is so fucking good

    “since so much of a woman’s ego becomes invested in her devotion to him once that conversion takes place”

    yup. I can do no wrong as acknowldeging my transgressions calls into question her decision. beautiful situation to be in as the hamster is strong and can rationalize anything I do

    “Conversely, Red Pill men should also understand, as Nick explained about his ex-wife, that this conversion is always tentative upon his own capacity to perpetuate it”

    lol. fuck her good. fuck them all good.

  40. “Atticue, you’re looking at this from a male-idealist perspective. From a female-opportunist perspective those 8 years were deep for her, but he changed such that the deep conversion shifted. That may seem horribly duplicitous to our concept of love, but from a woman’s it makes perfect sense. In fact, so much so that it’s a formulaic plot for romantic stories.”

    Rollo Love is love, or t’s not. The Greeks had three kinds of love, but we use one word and it fucks men up. I’m not making a moral judgement on women’s “love” (it’s good to be past the anger phase). I truly get it. It is what they are and is no better than the way men love.

    It just bugs me because when a man says I love you, it is I’ll rush in a burning house to save you. When a women says I love you it is you make me fell so special and then I hate you and then I can’t wait to see you be with you and you buy me shit.

    Simplistic I know but clearly two different concepts? Feelings? Emotions?

  41. @Agent P – Busted, guilty as charged. But I can also generally handle the crazy, hence my bad advice to Softek here a while back. I saw a chance to make a lane changer, epiphany girl degrade herself and commit depravity to keep him around but then again, she might just chop his head off.

    Had a 1 night stand who was crazy as fuck who had a gun, she mentioned it once, told her i knew, this was after i’d treated her like a barnyard animal, which she’d loved.

    @ADSGamer – “HB9mm” so obvious yet made me giggle.

    For me I was thinking HB8ish. She is my type being petite. She’s cute but the face isn’t classically beautiful and her choice of clothing makes her seem curvier than she is.

  42. I believe a lot of deep conversion is not reached because hypergamy is so often never fully satisfied in the age of birth control. So few get the object of the hypergamous drive… The kids.

    So are left feeling unfulfilled…

    Actually I think this should include all of the social repercussions that followed birth control, the Sexual Revolution, the social imperative to feminize boys and men, the era of social media, and lots of other variables that reinforce and reward women emotionally and financially for perpetuating this Hypergamous doubt about men in general.

    So, as I pointed out, you grandfather’s and his father’s generations were far more likely to sustain this deep conversion (or perpetuated attraction if you like) because the terms for sustaining it were different for women then, but even still, these influences can and do alter even older generation women to requalify themselves and the terms for their attraction in light of modern social conditions.

    @Ya, actually I believe you already experienced this Deep Conversion from your first girlfriend and it made separating from her all the more difficult. Yes, it was sustaining her attraction, but there’s a marked difference between a woman for whom you represent her Hypergamous ideal and one who’s attraction is just a casual thing.

    One reason having sex with a virgin is so potentially volatile in the long term is because you being her first is something she’ll always remember. You’ll be the benchmark (for better or worse) for her comparison of anyone else she bangs in her life. Women will even combine this Hypergamous infatuation with their intense need for metaphysical ‘chick crack’, thus making you her own ‘soul mate’.

    So yes, it’s about sustaining attraction, but the depth of that attraction depends on how well a guy fits her ideal of Hypergamous optimization, and that according to her awareness of her own conditions and SMV according to where she finds herself in life. The MRP sub is littered with stories of guys whose wives love them well enough, and may be attracted to them well enough to sustain that marriage, but they simply don’t see their husbands as a Hypergamous ideal, or they pine for the Alphas (imagined or real) from their past or idealized men who they think might fill the role better.

    And just as an aside here, Krauser wrote this post back in 2012. Not sure that figures into your estimation of him wanting to rethink his Red Pill life like Roosh in the now.

  43. @JA

    Furthermore, how much does race play a factor in hypergamy/dating.

    Ah, I know this one well. Non-white you should generally just subtract a point off of whatever you think your rating is. It may be slightly more for like….Asian non-white, slightly less for black non-white, and maybe (MAYBE) significantly less for latino non-white. But 1 point is a good guideline wrt to looks.

    You didn’t say, but you should also take a point off for every 2.5 inches of height you are below 5’10.

    And you can add a point for good style.
    You can also add a point for a good body…probably 2 points for a great body.

    This rule is pretty good for assessing passive SMV. What you can see is that, before you even get to your GAME….you can do a lot of shit to negate “defects”

    Does red pill awareness trump all that?

    Yup.

    I’ve been using Tinder and some other dating sites

    When you’re first starting out, don’t worry about that shit. You’re not advanced enough to understand what’s going to make you successful at it. But you can definitely pull from online.

    The general rule tho is that, because you are more limited, you should just go ahead and subtract another point from your rating to give you an idea about how attractive you are online (because chicks are dealing with a diff market).

    I even go out to the clubs/ bars but no luck. I have no problem talking to girls or getting their #…I’d like to chalk it down to my game being weak but everyone makes it sound like Tinder, clubs, Halloween are the easiest situations to hookup. Not me, lol.

    You may be expecting too much.
    Cold approach, esp for a beginner, should be viewed as like a 1/100 proposition. Esp in a club, an environment where the competition is super fierce.
    Paul Janka’s lay rate is somewhere between 1-3% (but he does something that’s just one step above GLL game, so conceivably, he could bump that up to like 5-6% with just solid game).

    And yeah, stop listening to ‘most people.’
    Most people don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.
    FYI, 90% of men will not tag more than 30 women by age 34. So their judgment of ‘hooking up’ and what’s easy to do while ‘hooking up’ is probably stupid.

  44. There is a running streak of sentimentalism through this and recent threads. Guys in LTRs offering up detailed credentials with the obvious flavour of redirected male idealism writ large. I am of the 20 year OMG ilk too but, this strain of virulent domesticity on here, sends me back to the sometimes blunt language of TRP.
    Deep conversion? Deep complacency.

  45. “Nope, no cheat codes sorry.”

    bullshit. pua stuff that is routine now would have been almost unthinkable two generations ago and would have appeared very much like magic or a cheat code to our grandfathers if a successful pua was able to travel back in time and apply his craft in front of a pua class. to conclude there are no more cheat codes is premature and self defeating.

    her brain is a networked system and it seems like systems that evolve via natural selection have plenty of room for surprises, shortcuts, backdoors, happy mistakes….

    you yourself found one with “looks don’t matter” and there are lots of guys who know that’s just the beginning of the rabbit hole

  46. @scray
    “The game played very well.”

    This lol That’s why I say it’s just Mystery Method. MM isn’t all about only being a super aloof alpha, there’s the rapport and comfort shit in there too. This is just flipping ALL the switches properly.

    But Krauser is a guy who stubbornly sticks to his style of game he’s marketed himself as having, so he’s just not flipping all the switches often and when he does it seems like something “special” to him so out comes a new label.

    “If you plot raw attraction against ASD/pre-emptive rejection, you’d probably see a U. At the lower end she’s on guard for fear of sleeping with or doing something silly with a low quality man. At the higher end she’s on guard for just being a sex object and there being no possibility the guy would actually stay. In the sweet spot, her guard is completely down.”

    This.

    “Now you can say ‘oh that’s just your game scray” but idk….whenever I toss some beta traits in there, all of a sudden the girls chase.”

    MM *HAS* some beta shit IN it, if people would ever actually look at MM lol Most of the Rapport/Comfort stuff is about doing some beta shit like opening up to her and letting her feel like she’s winning you over or seeing some special side of her. Just like Julien is explaining in that video about making girls become obsessed with you when he talks about telling them like he feels like they’re the only ones he can open up to (to balance out the asshole player side of him they know) etc

    That’s doing game PROPERLY. That’s IT. There’s nothing special/unique going on lol

    Now a guy may have reasons for not running that balanced game, like if I just want casual FBs I’ll do less of certain things and more of other things, but like, there’s nothing new going on here, nothing that deserves a new label.

    “But ya you can generate the “we’re soulmates, you’re my sun and moon” bullshit pretty easily.”

    This lol Like, most of the guys who think the soulmate feeling stuff is rare are guys who don’t know how to trigger it quickly ’cause they aren’t running MM properly and aren’t watching that Julien video I just linked etc They’re used to getting the level of attraction the average normal guy gets which is “a good amount”, and then occasionally they get “LOTS of attraction” and settle into LTRs with those girls, and every once in a while for whatever reasons they manage to flip all the right switches and hit the right balance with a girl and hit that “souls intertwining” shit and it BLOWS THEIR FUCKING MIND.

    But like, you can just trigger that whenever you want if you game properly and circumstances allow for it (like you can get enough face time with her etc).

    @Rollo
    “Actually I think this should include all of the social repercussions that followed birth control, the Sexual Revolution, the social imperative to feminize boys and men, the era of social media, and lots of other variables that reinforce and reward women emotionally and financially for perpetuating this Hypergamous doubt about men in general.”

    Agreed. Like I say, when you execute ABC properly, you get D. It doesn’t matter WHY you don’t execute C properly, whether it’s birth control, social media, logistics, bad game, whatever, if C isn’t there then you don’t get D. But as long as you execute ABC (however you do it, natural skillset, learned skillset, pure fluke, having a boost in value ahead of time (social circles, preselection etc)) you get D. That’s what you’re SUPPOSED to learn how to do when you study pickup (MM etc) and then pull back from there to the type of relationships that fit your life the best.

    “So, as I pointed out, you grandfather’s and his father’s generations were far more likely to sustain this deep conversion (or perpetuated attraction if you like) because the terms for sustaining it were different for women then”

    Agree completely. This goes back to the marriage stuff. In a previous society even the LITTLE things, like “guy goes off to work and wife HAS NO COMMUNICATION WITH HIM until he’s back on the doorstep again, he could be dead in a fire or fucking some other girl or WHO KNOWS WHAT”, that was VERY different in terms of maintaining long-term Hypergamy/dread/value than now where guys txt a girl all day long. All these little things add up and made things easier for men in the past to maintain their value and society ENCOURAGED it VS now where the FI brainwashes men to neuter their own value (like how JASYK would even THINK about being a minority being an issue with girls, where did that come from? That came from the FI/society around him).

    “@Ya, actually I believe you already experienced this Deep Conversion from your first girlfriend and it made separating from her all the more difficult.”

    All I did was run MM properly on her lol I just did ABC and got D. And I broke up with her while I was her best Hypergamous option, so I removed the ability for me to “lose my mojo” to her. She’s my alpha widow because in her mind she sees the last version of me she remembers which was the me that was triggering her Hypergamy hardcore. So I could probably txt her tomorrow and get back together.

    But if I had stayed with her and lost my mojo or otherwise stopped triggering her Hypergamy, she would have lost attraction and done the exact same things other women who lose attraction for their man do.

    It’s black and white and consistent across the board. There’s no cheat code where she’s going to stay attracted to me even if I stop triggering her Hypergamy.

    “Yes, it was sustaining her attraction, but there’s a marked difference between a woman for whom you represent her Hypergamous ideal and one who’s attraction is just a casual thing.”

    Yes, but that’s just degrees of the same thing. That’s like saying “there’s a marked difference between a medium pizza and a large pizza so we’re going to call a large pizza a banana”. They’re the same thing, one is just further up the scale than the other, there’s no actual difference except in degree and no functional difference and no reason to relabel one of them and make it sound like it’s some special pizza with unique ingredients. It’s the exact same as the medium pizza except a bigger degree of it.

    That’s why I say if this did something new like prevented them from leaving you when you stop triggering their Hypergamy, then okay, we’ve found some amazing new thing to discuss because that’s an actual change. But this is just relabelling “more/better game” into something that sounds like an Unconditional Love cheat code to new guys.

    I think guys really don’t understand how easy this is to do when you understand the dynamics of it. That’s part of why Blue Pill people hate PUA, is we codified how to trigger this magic soul mate connection stuff. Julien is LITERALLY laying it out step by step in that video I linked that no one will actually watch lol I can trigger the same level of soulmate connection that I had with my LTR, in a casual fuckbuddy or a One Night Stand, if I just execute ABC.

    I think most guys never learn how to consciously do it so they attribute it to being some special rare connection. But like, it’s all laid out in MM and that Julien vid etc lol But nobody likes to watch the surgeon dissect the beautiful human body into cold codified parts.

    “One reason having sex with a virgin is so potentially volatile in the long term is because you being her first is something she’ll always remember.”

    It just gives you a nice value boost ’cause she attaches a bunch of good emotions to you. If you stop triggering her Hypergamy, that will vanish. That’s literally how Buyer’s Remorse works…she’s happy she fucked you until she isn’t and then she regrets it and it was the worst mistake of her life and rape etc But if you take her for an Egg McMuffin and keep giving her the good feels, she’ll stay happy she fucked you.

    “You’ll be the benchmark (for better or worse) for her comparison of anyone else she bangs in her life.”

    Sure, because I’m not there to “lose my mojo” around her. If I lost my mojo around her, she would lose attraction. This is why guys thinking banging some EE/thai virgin is going to be their cheat code are retarded. They’re subject to the exact same “always trigger her Hypergamy” rules as anyone else (which is why entering a relationship structure that makes it harder to keep triggering her Hypergamy is playing the game on Hard Mode for no real benefit since she’ll leave if she’s lost Hypergamy (which you’ve voluntarily made more difficult to maintain) either way)

    “The MRP sub is littered with stories of guys whose wives love them well enough, and may be attracted to them well enough to sustain that marriage, but they simply don’t see their husbands as a Hypergamous ideal”

    Those guys don’t have the game to trigger her Hypergamy properly. They’re not running ABC, they’re running, like, A. lol

    “or they pine for the Alphas (imagined or real) from their past or idealized men who they think might fill the role better.”

    Because those men aren’t around to stop/fail at triggering their Hypergamy, and the guys they’re with don’t have the game to trigger her Hypergamy better. ABC = D.

    “And just as an aside here, Krauser wrote this post back in 2012. Not sure that figures into your estimation of him wanting to rethink his Red Pill life like Roosh in the now.”

    Dude is like 40+. He’s got a renewed enthusiasm for the game right now but there was a point where he seemed miserable as fuck and usually that’s the result of guys trying to process “well shit, what do I do in the LONG term with this??” He might have a different view now and that’s totally cool with me, but guys past 35 who’ve been doing PUA for a long time tend to start thinking about that stuff just because they realize “hmm, wait, is there an endgame here?” and that’s where a lot of them start seeking out Blue Pill “Unconditional Love” solutions, throwing out their entire Red Pill knowledge base.

    Which is why I make fun of them and the marriage debates here…we all LOVE the Red Pill on the weekends when we talk about slaying pussy, until the overall long-term life answers the Red Pill is showing are uncomfortable to us and then we throw it all out and try to fight it and find cheat codes etc instead of accepting the Red Pill fully and working within what we’ve been watching you write about for 5 years lol

    @scray
    “FYI, 90% of men will not tag more than 30 women by age 34. So their judgment of ‘hooking up’ and what’s easy to do while ‘hooking up’ is probably stupid.”

    This lol Not even 30 women. I know cool social guys in their mid-30s that go out regularly but just don’t have game or have Blue Pill mindsets who have a total count of like, 4 lol But they’ll talk a big game when we predrink.

    @AnnoyingGorilla
    “There is a running streak of sentimentalism through this and recent threads. Guys in LTRs offering up detailed credentials with the obvious flavour of redirected male idealism writ large. I am of the 20 year OMG ilk too but, this strain of virulent domesticity on here, sends me back to the sometimes blunt language of TRP. Deep conversion? Deep complacency.”

    That’s why I keep stomping on it lol Probably a side effect of everyone getting older. But it alienates the young guys who are dealing with a world that doesn’t look anything like what these guys are reminiscing about.

    @fleezer
    “you yourself found one with “looks don’t matter” and there are lots of guys who know that’s just the beginning of the rabbit hole”

    Those aren’t cheat codes though. They’re just “how things actually work, but our social conditioning has blinded us to seeing/accepting that”.

    They SEEM like cheat codes, just like the “Deep Conversion” SEEMS like it’s special to guys who don’t know how to get “Deep Conversion” regularly and understand how it’s just a larger pizza with the right balance of toppings but nothing fundamentally different or special, but they aren’t ACTUALLY cheat codes. They’re just the natural order of things.

  47. Whoa.

    What happened last night?

    What did I write? That doesn’t sound like me. That sounds like GBFM

    Wait….

    No…

    Could it be…..

    I’m GBFM…..

    It all makes sense now.

    The lack of sleep….its all because that’s when I switch over to being GBFM.

    lol

    Anyway, let me translate what I wrote last night.

    kno a guy, he’s white tho. supeer white tho. biught me my drinks sincei called trump. anyway saw him months ago w/ asia girls. was like threesok e lol you o guy,

    but juts biz. he was super impressed i called trump. he was like how you kno girl. i said honestly iyt was from picking up cjicks. he waas dissapoint. tol d wife i was like this oracle, nah, just from talking to peeeps. most people do superficial shit. but i talk to peole for long time.

    anyway he hd issue w/ asian woreker. and like, i just wanna bang but like i wanna figure our now and shit. so i’ve got tlikr yhis sduper officasl tak to fgure out and shit. loloolol

    Okay, so there is this guy I was talking to a few days ago, before the election. I was sure Trump would win, and got into a long discussion with him about why that was the case. Yesterday I saw him again and he was exuberant, shook my hand “I could give you a hug.” and he bought me a couple of drinks.

    He told his wife I was this oracle guy to predict the trump win. I told him though it was all on feeling. It came from me getting into really in depth conversations with people so i pick up on things other people don’t. As for my prediction that women would still support him, lol, that just came from picking up random chicks lol.

    He was still impressed and thought I should open up a think tank in washington or something. I had told him my stories of the free beer and sneaking into the costume party. He said I should use my talents for good lol.

    Now, a few months ago he had stopped by my place of work and he had two asians with him. I thought “Nice dude, threesome lol. You go dude.” Ends up they were just his employees. These girls were brought up again, and I was trying to get their number so I could try and bang them lol. However, it ends up there was this major conspiracy that came up around them lol, so he wants me to investigate and see what I can find out. Its pretty cool. Undercover Hank. lol. Not sure how to approach it though. I got her number, but I’m not sure how I want to get her into the meetup yet. Getting the info I need though is easy if I can just bang her lol.

    That was just a neat little interaction. This dude thinks I am super cool and gifted, and gave me the opportunity to do some covert operations if I want lol.

    convinced suuuuuper professional bartender to get me a drink beyond what we allowed

    There’s a limit in this place on how much you can drink. I passed this limit. Bartender working there is uber professional, by the books guy. But I got him to give me another drink.

    talked to blakc dude i kno about chicks. dudes a playa on the dl. we tight (blax in secret???? lol) anyway he gets me beers and shows me pics on balck girls tits. and we like have this long assssss con vo about shit, see tons of tits lololooolol.

    anyway he gets me beers to.

    There’s also this older black dude I know (who’s probably actually secretly blax. same age range). He’s married now, but was telling me all these stories back when he was deployed overseas way back in the day. And he still picks up chicks when he’s out and about. He was showing me all the nudes girls were sending him. We spent a lot of time talking about chicks and shit. He also bought me a beer.

    sory drunk as shit

    but like, everyone likes me and shit, funnny loloololol.

    yeah, got like 5 pints of 9% beers lol.

  48. “There is a running streak of sentimentalism through this and recent threads”

    good.

    I felt good as hell talking to my dad after the world series. playing catch with your old man in the backyard is something I hope every boy experiences.

    accepting the truth about the indifference of nature does not preclude a man from looking back fondly on certain events and or times of his life. in fact, I think it can sometimes help him to determine his next moves

    the other day I got sentimental as fuck over a bottle of young vine musigny I drank ten years ago. in ten years I have not been as surprised or delighted by a liquid as I was that day. what does that mean? it means I have to keep looking because an ever better surprise is out there waiting to be found

    occasional sentimental moments remind me that life is amazing, unpredictable and most of all short

    now is the time.

  49. But like, idk, you can just tear through so many ONS (and ghost or not put any effort into it) going full “alpha trait mode,” and the girls won’t chase.
    Now you can say ‘oh that’s just your game scray” but idk….whenever I toss some beta traits in there, all of a sudden the girls chase.

    I covered this in my post about relationships…girls need comfort and validation, the giving of which are beta behaviors…

    I really don’t give a fuck if I get called a beta for doing some beta stuff…it’s necessary in a relationship…a little goes a long way…you still need lots of alpha behavior…creating tingles and drama…give a girl a complete emotional feast…she won’t feel like she needs orbiters to give her comfort and validation

  50. @hank
    “Could it be…..”

    lol’ed hard at your drunk FR and even harder at the absolutely perfect Fight Club pic.

    The sad part is I totally understood your drunk FR lol I’ve written a few of those myself 😦

  51. @theasdgamer
    “I really don’t give a fuck if I get called a beta for doing some beta stuff…it’s necessary in a relationship…a little goes a long way…you still need lots of alpha behavior…creating tingles and drama…give a girl a complete emotional feast…she won’t feel like she needs orbiters to give her comfort and validation”

    This goes back to everyone flipping their shit on Scray because he said some behaviors are “beta”. The Manosphere has this “beta = bad, alpha = good” James Bond “only ever be alpha 100% 24/7 or else if you do ONE beta thing, even if it benefits the relationship, you are a BETA MINDSET LOSER CHODE LOSER” baggage that prevents real discussion.

    Like I say, parts of MM from way back in the early 2000s involve doing beta behaviors to reach the right balance of shit, that’s what you’re calibrating in interactions. That’s literally the whole point of qualifying her and using SOIs after you have A2 etc.

    Most of the Manosphere has never ACTUALLY studied MM in depth and is working off what they THINK MM is, and is still chasing that retarded Chad Thundercock James Bond version of “alpha” and LARP’ing about beta/alpha, so when Scray says “this is a beta behavior” it gets warped as fuck and he becomes the bad guy for triggering everyone’s baggage lol

  52. @hank
    “also someone give me some tips on my text game from a couple days ago plz k thx bye”

    You solved it yourself in that FR lol Spike them and get them on the phone ASAP where you can communicate more subcomms and engage them deeper (and keep them engaged in ONE conversation instead of the 10 txt convos she has going (though even then I’ve known some girls who can talk on the phone with headphones while simultaneously carrying on txt conversations with their friends on the same phone (AND send me screenshots OF those txt convos happening jesus lol welcome to <25yo 8+/10s in 2016))).

  53. This is a great post. Greatly appreciated.

    In Nick’s own post he recommends to readers to listen to Billie Holiday’s “Easy Living” tune lyrics – a song from a woman swallowed whole by her “deep conversion” to a man:

    Living for you, is easy living.
    It’s easy to live when you’re in love.
    And, I’m so in love,
    There’s nothing in life, but you.

    I’ll never regret the years I’m giving.
    They’re easy to give when you’re in love.
    I’m happy to do whatever I do, for you.
    For you…maybe I’m a fool, but it’s fun.

    People say you rule me with one wave of your hand.
    Darling, it’s grand.
    They just don’t understand.
    Living for you is easy living.

    It’s easy to live when you’re in love.
    And, I’m so in love,
    There’s nothing in life, but you.

    This is the song and expression of a woman entranced in a “deep conversion” to her ideal, alpha man.

    Somehow it’s also a song that all men today have heard many times before when growing up – that still resonates in 80% of our collective chests and sometimes makes us feel like we’re falling down a elevator shaft – that Disneyesque, blue-pill laced, male idealization of a woman out there – somewhere – who longs to devote herself completely, body and soul, to us. Naturally. And no regrets.

    Because its fun.
    Because she is so in love.
    Because she is happy.
    Because none of the other things in life are really that important.
    And because its easy.

    She sings entirely from her perspective. No mention whatsoever of his sensitivity, diligence or protective and provisional deeds. No “what you do for me or how you do for me”. Only his hegemony.

    Her man’s competences – no doubt his IDGAF attitude, indefatigable frame, devoted muscle building, and abundance mentality – were precursors to, not the sequel to, her breaking out in that kind of song.

    For the 80% of us dudes who can never hope to instill or cause a true, deep conversion within another woman, it seems like the best we can do is start lifting like a motherfucker, read and improve. Then maybe, after she has finished her longing, and sets down the copy of 50 shades of grey, she will confuse us with her mental idealization?

    It’s a sucker punch to the stomach either way.

  54. @theasdgamer
    Following up my response to you there, was this excellent post by Pellaeon at the end of the SMV Aging Process article that probably no one saw so I’m cut and pasting it:

    @Scray
    “ok well this whole mindset stuff just seems an awful lot like a way to hamster everything under the sun as alpha ‘so long as you FELT LIKE IT BRO’ … you can’t be 100% super alpha unless you’re planning on a life of just ONS and that’s it. so if you want any female companionship beyond that, you’re going to rely on some beta traits.

    but because the manosphere is so up the butt with ‘alpha = good’ we’re just gonna keep on with this “formulation” I guess.”

    I didn’t realize how much I missed you and YaReally til now.

    I 100% agree and cosign this. There is such a fixation with “alpha = good” that many people refuse to say something is beta that contributes to a successful relationship.

    But literally, from an ego psych perspective, the beta strategy is resources for sex. It’s built into the mantra: alpha fucks (ie genes/short term mating) and beta bucks (ie resources/long term mating). Women have a plural sexual strategy – they feel pulled by both competing needs. Alpha builds arousal and drives the desire for fucking, beta builds bonding and drives the desire for companionship.

    Athol Kay, in the original non-cuck version of MMSL, built a model that exactly represented this idea- beta and alpha as separate “sliders” with values distinct from each other.

    That sliders and values distinct from eachother thing is a good description.

  55. @yareally

    You solved it yourself in that FR lol Spike them and get them on the phone ASAP where you can communicate more subcomms and engage them deeper

    yeah but it didn’t really work. it got their attention, but mostly only because they went “okay, what the fuck does that mean, and who the fuck is this.” I didn’t really get to spike them much.

    Should I just call them at their first response?

    Me: #MAGA

    Her: What is that?

    call her on voice

    I just didn’t really have any luck on getting them very engaged on text.

  56. Fun little instadate this morning… 9am

    Going to a cafe. Long line out the door. Place packed. Smoking hot blond and her mom last in line. Shit try to scrabble over across the street. By the time i get there two old ladies are in front. Damn. This girl was maybe 19… Full model quality and from what I could observe between her and her mom a sweet girl. Unicorn hunters brimg a rope…

    So no open of her. Would have been interesting with mom there. Never done that. Any how they get seated way off. Now im up and the guy poi ts to a table in the back corner. Next to that table is an 8 Asian girl by herslef. I go to her table and pull out the chair. She looks at me. I say “I’ll just squeeze in with you” and take a seat. She looks around like wtf and says OK then… Lol.

    She’s like “uhhh is this normal” and I say full eye contact “for me yeah” and she laughs… She says Well I’m Niki, with an n like Nancy” and we shake hands. so i crack up at this “well i guess it could be with silent K so thanks” like you weirdo… So this becomes a thing i keep calling her Niki with a K…

    She says ” well that table is open back there you can go get it. ” but is laughing. I kick back and stretch out legs right next to her. ” nah… I can see you are socially arkward so this will be good for you” and she bursts out OMG and laughing. My posture flips between laid back like this to sitting up hands on the table shoulder width and full eye contact. Little tiny cafe table so we are close.

    So go through the “what’s up… Why you here” and she says she is here with her whole family cousin got married last night… I tease her about being hung over and she says she doesnt really drink just came from the gym. I tease her about being a cokehead… And she laughs and says she only tried pot the first time last week… I say why did you touch your nose when I said coke… More laughing…

    Lot’s of this going on for almost an hour. Some key points…

    I destroy her with spot on cold reads all in a row…lol

    Kindergarten teacher… Went to private school… Filipina… Spoiled…

    She keeps going OMG this is crazy… Who are you?

    We get to talking about how she is all composedbon the outside but really acts crazy… She nods… I tell her she has hit a guy with a shoe… And she laughs and says yeah and thrown stufff…

    I say “i know… And I know why”… She’s like ” why why” and this is good… Will use this again and it is right i say with strong laser now as she is leaning in ” you are sending a signal…. You act up to find someone with the strength… (she is nodding) to TAKE YOU IN HAND…” She is now all eyes and slack jawed a bit… I’m nodding and go on “right? You meet all these guys who just want to worship you and are needy and need you to complete them and it forces you to test them” and now she is nodding “uh yeah totally… I haven’t had a good relationship in so long” i say “well until today… But lets not get ahead of ourselves here” and she’s like haha you can go now…

    She says I should go about 5 times but never means it… We talk a bit about my 5 kids… She is fascinated by this and i tell her “well yeah I’m very fertile… You are probably pregnant now. Sorry” cracks her up. She is very interested in my wife and whatbshe looks like I tell her “oh she’s hot. Solid 8. Still same size as college” and she says im terrible and “what do you think she is doing now while you are here with me”… I deadpan “laundry… I hope”… She finds this outrageous… She asks how the sex life is… I say “ah you know… Sometimes great sometimes not…” Shrug. She says oh I bet you are a freak… I laugh at this. “nah I fuck like Pat Boone”… But i have a lot of testosterone… Like we could go behind that building…” She is cracking up.

    She says when she was in catholic school they made her sign something. I say “oh a purity pledge” shes like Yes! I say ” so i guess you are still a virgin. ” she smirks Nooooo… We talk about her first time and how guilty she was… Laugh about this.

    She asks how long I’ve been married. She wants to know the secret.. I tell her staying home. She says she wants what I have. I tell her she can be my second wife. This becomes a thing… Keep teasing her about being my second wife and she can work her way up….

    Some kino… She says she is big into powerlifting and xfit… She is in yoga pants and tight top. Killer fitness girl body. But she is short 5’3 and 115 she says. I look at her legs under the table and say she has stubby legs…. Tease her about being weak… Some muscle squeezing and when she flexes i make a disapproving face… Meh soft… She says im in great shape. I say yeah im doing good for an 82 year old…. She is laughing. She tells me she is 30 and I neg that with “really… Oh…. I thought you were much younger…. This is over” sad face… Lol. I really dod think she was like 24…. Asian skin..

    She gets a coffee to go and stays 10 minutes after she gets it… She asks about work saying “im not a goldigger” i tease her about goldiggers always saying that… Then accuse her of being at least a copper and silver digger…

    She keeps coming back to “i cant believe you just came over and sat down” now getting ddb eyes… The last time she says that i say “yeah. I came in like a wrecking ball” and shes going omg you know Miley Cyrus… I tell her i wont stick my tongue out… But might twerk up on her… She laughs and says i probably dance like a white guy. I tell her i dance within myself with very sensuous movements… Some NLP here… Shes like yeah i can see that.

    Ok i say get up. Lets go. Shes like wait what… Lets gontake a walk. She says she needs to get back to her family. Yeah come on. Walk with me.

    So we stroll down the street. I give her my arm. We stop and look in some windows… Stupidly i am going away from my hotel… I see a motorcycle and stop. She says mid life crisis… I say mid life… No crisis. I hold my hand up “the world is my oyster!” Shes like yeah because you are rich. I laugh amd say well that doesnt suck but i do what i want. She is smiling and shaking her head. I ask her if shes ben to my hotel bar shes says no and thinks im inviting her lol i say well you should go with your parents…

    About 15 minutes of strolling and boyfriend kino. She says het phone is blowing up her family want to go sightsee where is she. I tell her tell them you met an amazin guy and are running away with him. She laughs… I pull her in holding her hand… Hug her. Kiss her cheek. Then once lightly and quick on the lips. Still holding her hand as she walks backwards facing me… Sentient Sentient Sentient she says…” I cant believe you”… Her fingers slip out of my hand… “take care Niki with a K” i say… Her standing there grinning like a freakin school girl… I turn and walk off. She goes back the other way.

    Fun… Maybe she will come by the hotel bar later… Or not.

  57. @hank
    “Me: #MAGA

    Her: What is that?

    call her on voice”

    You got it. 🙂 It doesn’t have to make sense remember. All you need is to trigger enough curiosity for her to pick up the phone because on the phone is where you’re going to do the actual gaming instead of over txt.

    ie – don’t think “how can I get her Attracted and then call her”, think “how can I get her to pick up the phone so I can get her Attracted”

    Tyler joked that recently he was trying stuff like promising the girl a romantic dinner on him like full chode shit to where the girl would come out literally expecting to just milk some beta chode for a free dinner, because he knew that as long as he got them in person one on one where he could game them, he would turn that impression around and get them actually attracted to him lol

    The goal is to get into the ideal circumstance where you can spit game at her, as soon as possible, by whatever means necessary. If she was curious enough to ask “What is that?”, she’s probably curious enough to answer the phone. And if she doesn’t answer, either leave a voicemail with some DHVs in it, or txt her teasing her for not answering and being shy etc But don’t try to run your game over txt esp on old numbers that have died off. It’s not that it CAN’T work, it’s just not as efficient as getting them on the phone where you can demonstrate more subcomms etc

  58. @M Simon
    “I don’t care much for “deep conversion”. I like the term bonding better.”

    ya, the term “conversion” itself is the main thing that bothers me (aside from there being no point to differentiating it really). Conversion implies like, hey, you CHANGED her, now you can sit back and relax, she’s CHANGED, she’s been CONVERTED. She’ll “un-convert” as soon as you stop triggering her Hypergamy properly lol so it’s not really a conversion, or it’s temporary enough a conversion to not be worth naming it that when that word comes with so many connotations to guys learning about the red pill who are trying to still find ways to get that Unconditional Love.

    If he had just called it like “deep connection”, cool, that’s just a large pizza instead of a medium pizza but follows the same rules and is achieved by the same actions…but “Deep Conversion” is a bad name for it.

  59. @yareally

    Most of the Manosphere has never ACTUALLY studied MM in depth and is working off what they THINK MM is, and is still chasing that retarded Chad Thundercock James Bond version of “alpha” and LARP’ing about beta/alpha

    hey playdontpay!

    all this PUA shit doesn’t sit right with me, seems a lot like dancing monkeys or performing clowns, you are the equivalent of court jesters trying to amuse “her majesty” so that she will fuck you!

    Fuck that! Not for me I have to much self respect for all that shit!

    On here we have Hank holiday talking about “designing stacks” and obsessing over the wording and delivery of his openers. Wtf? How fucking beta is that?

    I see Game and PUA as different skill sets
    For me game is were its at PUA is for performing seals.

    Game tool kit –
    Alpha mindset, Confidence, command presence, amused mastery, social intelligence, mental point of origin, outcome independence, alpha body language, charisma. Strong physique. Dress well in masculine quality clothing.

    PUA tool kit
    Faked hyper energy levels, peacocking, loud Amoging, scripted sets/stacks/pick up lines etc dancing around like a kid that’s got ahd , attention seeking clothing/outfits and using props.
    Does any of this sound like masculine behaviour?
    Yes it will work better than being a shy nervous wallflower, but anything works better than that.

    How about trying to be a real fucking man?

    I don’t know maybe it’s my age but all this PUA bullshit just seems childish, embarrassing and unnecessary to me.

    I like pussy as much as the next man but I’m not going to fucking sell my soul or compromise my dignity for a piece of ass!

    Textbook.

  60. Here’s another way of looking at the whole “women don’t love the way men want them to” thing.

    All our relationships have some conditionality. There will be behaviour that each of us won’t want to be around again from even our closest friends or family. What might that be? Your bestest buddy tells you he needs an alibi to escape a murder rap. Did he do it? Pshhh. Of course he did: she laughed at the size of his dick, so he killed her. I’ll leave that one as an exercise in moral philosophy 101. My guess is most people would put boundaries at murder, personal treachery, fraud of innocent people, and doing bad stuff to children.

    So the persistence of each of our relationships is conditional. The question is: how conditional does it get before the relationship isn’t going to take any load? Whether you’re a Democrat or Republican? If you use profane language? If you eat meat? If you don’t go to church? If you drive a car that contributes to global warming? If – this is a big one in the UK politics – you send your children to private schools? If you forget your anniversary? If you forgot she gets triggered by marzipan? If you leave the toilet seat up?

    There’s a point at which someone has so many conditions that it’s impossible to have a relationship with them. And there’s another point at which they have so few that they tolerate physical abuse from their partner. Both those people need to see a psychiatrist.

    Let’s not argue about whether women can “love” or not. Let’s look at behaviour. If she is going to drop you when you don’t get your usual annual bonus and have to cancel the holiday in Antigua, well, maybe you don’t want to build a house on that sand. If she has boundaries against serious stuff, but lets the daily stuff go, and is going to stick by you when the town factory closes, that sounds like a rock you can build on.

    In either case, she can claim to “love” you, and sincerely believe it. Love forbids nothing and guarantees nothing. Any action, up to and including murder, can be accompanied by the claim that it was done out of “love” for the victim.

    What matters isn’t the word. It’s the behaviour. If she “loves” her man but won’t have sex with him for a month every time he says “Goddamn”, well, is that the kind of “love” anyone wants in their life? If she “loves” her man and kills another woman for looking at him, is that the kind of “love” anyone wants to be around?

    I suspect a lot of men find that the women they know have too many boundaries around too many things those men think are trivial nonsense. If that’s the case, and the man isn’t a total boor, then she’s not suitable for relationships. Her “love” isn’t functional.

    It maybe that she has boundaries of variable number and size, depending on the Alphatude of the man involved. The question is, how much time, money and attention do you want to put into finding out if you are her (right-now-I-feel-like-you-are-my) kind of Alpha? And how long can you maintain the Alphability?

    The claim that women don’t “love” the way men want them to has to translate into specific behaviours if it is to mean anything. If she a) is loyal, b) stays slim, c) has sex with you when you want to, d) doesn’t spend your money on useless gee-gaws, e) is respectful and affectionate in public, f) is supportive in private, and g) does all this without needing constant Alpha management and supervision, then I’m pretty sure most of us would be happy with that and never mind what label anyone attaches to it.

    So does the Sixth Iron Rule say that, absent unrelenting Alpha supervision and management, she will turn a) traitor, b) fat, c) sex-denying, d) money-wasting, e) disrespectful and harsh in public, f) an undermining nag in private?

    It seems so.

  61. Rollo: “Yes, it was sustaining her attraction, but there’s a marked difference between a woman for whom you represent her Hypergamous ideal and one who’s attraction is just a casual thing.”

    YaReally: “Yes, but that’s just degrees of the same thing. That’s like saying “there’s a marked difference between a medium pizza and a large pizza so we’re going to call a large pizza a banana”. They’re the same thing, one is just further up the scale than the other, there’s no actual difference except in degree and no functional difference and no reason to relabel one of them and make it sound like it’s some special pizza with unique ingredients. It’s the exact same as the medium pizza except a bigger degree of it.

    That’s why I say if this did something new like prevented them from leaving you when you stop triggering their Hypergamy, then okay, we’ve found some amazing new thing to discuss because that’s an actual change. But this is just relabelling “more/better game” into something that sounds like an Unconditional Love cheat code to new guys.

    I think guys really don’t understand how easy this is to do when you understand the dynamics of it. That’s part of why Blue Pill people hate PUA, is we codified how to trigger this magic soul mate connection stuff. Julien is LITERALLY laying it out step by step in that video I linked that no one will actually watch lol I can trigger the same level of soulmate connection that I had with my LTR, in a casual fuckbuddy or a One Night Stand, if I just execute ABC.

    I think most guys never learn how to consciously do it so they attribute it to being some special rare connection. But like, it’s all laid out in MM and that Julien vid etc lol But nobody likes to watch the surgeon dissect the beautiful human body into cold codified parts.”

    You are using confirmation bias here. (Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one’s preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.)

    The whole reason to be for the original post is the matter of degree that the woman is invested in you. The bigger degree is the point.

    Yes Krauser was in a funk at the time and he was bragging about how he can deeply convert a girl. He may or may not have had good enough game to get a girl on the street, but he was talking about the girl being all into him. Not about getting a girl.

    Once again, not about the girl investing, but the degree of her investing. You and Scray are explicitly saying you want the girl to stop short of full investment, right? Because it would interfere with your designs for that relationship.

    That is quite different in the the designs of LTR relationship and especially married with children LTR monogamy (when chosen, I’m not advocating that). In the latter design, there is tremendous value in the woman having been deeply converted, or remaining invested in the man as her actual hypergamous ideal.

    The point Krauser was trying to make is that his ideal actually is: “Total submission of body and soul in which the woman trusts and admires you so much she presents her whole being to you to do as you please.”

    I don’t see this as the same thing as properly executed PUA game. Because of different goals.

    And precisely because of (not in spite of):

    Rollo: “The MRP sub is littered with stories of guys whose wives love them well enough, and may be attracted to them well enough to sustain that marriage, but they simply don’t see their husbands as a Hypergamous ideal”

    YaReally: “Those guys don’t have the game to trigger her Hypergamy properly. They’re not running ABC, they’re running, like, A. lol”

    And there is a distinction of blue pill beta vs. red pill induced conversion. Because of Mental Point of Origin. The blue pill beta AFC is leaning into the girl for true love. The Red Pill Gamer is not. The Red Pill Gamer believes in Roissy’s 16 Commandments of Poon.

    Yes the Degree matters. And the woman having been deeply converted does matter at points in time when a LTR guy does have a lapse in triggering her Hypergamy because it comes in handy there until he regains the ability to control his circumstances.

  62. @SJF

    I don’t see this as the same thing as properly executed PUA game. Because of different goals.

    mindset strikes again!

    Even though it LITERALLY is the same thing externally, somehow the intent changes everything. Oh Em Gee!

  63. constrainedlocus
    November 11, 2016 at 1:34 pm

    Bonding is not something you can create. You can provide the essentials but the bond is from her. It is almost immaterial what you do.

    Either the chemistry is there. Or it is not.

  64. Yareally

    Lol… Tbh it was so early in the morning not sure if i would have been that up for a romp just then… Like i was just out to get some coffee…

    Left out one part… She was talking about what she needs in a guy “that he be fun and exciting”…

    DPA bros…

  65. SJF
    November 11, 2016 at 2:06 pm

    The change from unbonded to bonded is quite material. The number and level of shit tests goes way down. Way, way, down.

    She has made a decision. And you know how hard it is to get a woman to decide.

    The LTR made her decision 40+ years ago. It has taken that long to teach her that making the decision irrevocable is better for her. It brings her peace.

  66. @Rollo

    So yes, it’s about sustaining attraction, but the depth of that attraction depends on how well a guy fits her ideal of Hypergamous optimization, and that according to her awareness of her own conditions and SMV according to where she finds herself in life.

    scray already explained this… lol… this is just ‘basic’ calibration…

    If you plot raw attraction against ASD/pre-emptive rejection, you’d probably see a U. At the lower end she’s on guard for fear of sleeping with or doing something silly with a low quality man. At the higher end she’s on guard for just being a sex object and there being no possibility the guy would actually stay. In the sweet spot, her guard is completely down.

    =

    twwwwu wuuuuuuv souuuulmates wuvvvofmyliiiiife.

    I mean, I’m torn at this point, because as a man, I personally want to believe that raw attraction controls all. But like, idk, you can just tear through so many ONS (and ghost or not put any effort into it) going full “alpha trait mode,” and the girls won’t chase.

    Now you can say ‘oh that’s just your game scray” but idk….whenever I toss some beta traits in there, all of a sudden the girls chase.

    alpha AND beta BEHAVIORS = hypergamous optimization…

    like @YaReally says…

    MM *HAS* some beta shit IN it, if people would ever actually look at MM lol Most of the Rapport/Comfort stuff is about doing some beta shit like opening up to her and letting her feel like she’s winning you over or seeing some special side of her. Just like Julien is explaining in that video about making girls become obsessed with you when he talks about telling them like he feels like they’re the only ones he can open up to (to balance out the asshole player side of him they know) etc

    That’s doing game PROPERLY. That’s IT. There’s nothing special/unique going on lol

    aaand, doing it properly = you NEED to pump the alpha BEHAVIORS to get massive attraction FIRST… and then dial that attraction back by sliding in some beta BEHAVIORS… calibrated to keep you in her ‘zone of hypergamous optimization’… (maybe 2 points up from what she thinks she is…)…

    (and this is why we are saying that ‘beta’ behaviors are not ‘bad’…lol… they are a NECESSARY part of calibration… which leads to her hypergamous optimization… which ALSO leads to the possibility of stable LTRs…)

    good luck!

  67. @sentient

    Left out one part… She was talking about what she needs in a guy “that he be fun and exciting”…

    DPA bros…

    you listening to what she she says she wants in a guy and taking it seriously = beta trait bros.

  68. @SJF
    “The bigger degree is the point.”

    It’s irrelevant though. What does that bigger degree of investment get a guy? Nothing. She will 180 on him in a War Brides situation and will lose Attraction if he stops triggering Hypergamy.

    “but he was talking about the girl being all into him”

    Like I said, this is what MM and traditional PUA teaches.

    “Once again, not about the girl investing, but the degree of her investing.”

    It’s just irrelevant. A large pizza IS bigger than a medium pizza, but it’s just a pizza. There’s no point calling it a banana. It functions and behaves exactly the same way a medium pizza does and is subject to the same rules so why bother making muddy water distinctions?

    “You and Scray are explicitly saying you want the girl to stop short of full investment, right?”

    We do this on purpose, not because we don’t understand how to get deep investment or what it is. It’s all just the same pizza.

    “The point Krauser was trying to make is that his ideal actually is: “Total submission of body and soul in which the woman trusts and admires you so much she presents her whole being to you to do as you please.””

    There’s no such thing as Total submission. There’s “Total submission in the moment while you’re still triggering her Hypergamy…but that will be completely removed if you stop triggering her Hypergamy (or pro-actively un-trigger it lol)”

    Calling it this separate label shit adds all this “so if you can do this cheat code then you’ll have TOTAL submission” connotation that gives Blue Pill guys hope that they can cheat the system.

    If you run proper ABC = D game, you will get “total submission of body and soul in which the woman trusts and admires you so much she presents her whole being to you to do as you please” from a girl you’ve met in a very short period of time and can trigger it on purpose and consistently with lots of girls if you want.

    But that’s just ATTRACTION. That’s just “A LOT OF ATTRACTION” lol That’s not some special attraction with special rules. When you lose Hypergamy, she will no longer feel that way about you. The mechanic itself is just standard attraction.

    “I don’t see this as the same thing as properly executed PUA game.”

    That’s because you do the same thing Krauser is doing with your million labels or Sentient with his DPA etc to try to make what you’re doing seem different/special. You guys just like to muddy the waters so you can add your own copyright labels to shit lol

    “Yes the Degree matters. And the woman having been deeply converted does matter at points in time when a LTR guy does have a lapse in triggering her Hypergamy because it comes in handy there until he regains the ability to control his circumstances.”

    Like I said in my original post, you might buy yourself a bit of extra time to slack off if you’ve invested a lot and she feels guilty peacing out on you right away, or like if she doesn’t have Hypergamously better options than you available etc, but you’re not buying much time and you better get your shit back on track fast.

    And again, this is just EXACTLY WHAT MM/PUA TEACHES lol This magic connection shit is the way you’re SUPPOSED to do LTRs, we’ve taught it from the start lol

    @M Simon
    “Bonding is not something you can create. You can provide the essentials but the bond is from her. It is almost immaterial what you do. Either the chemistry is there. Or it is not.”

    Nah, you can create a lot of that stuff consciously on purpose. Lasers plus cutting space, specific rapport/comfort routines, etc

    “The change from unbonded to bonded is quite material. The number and level of shit tests goes way down. Way, way, down.”

    And when you start to fail some of them, the number of them will increase again, and when you fail enough of them and/or are no longer her best Hypergamous option, she will lose Attraction. This is hard-wired. Attraction is not a choice.

    @having a bad day
    “scray already explained this… lol… this is just ‘basic’ calibration…”

    This lol like what do you guys think pickup IS??? Has ANYONE read MM?? Does ANYONE read Juggler?? lol

    It’s like people are seeing someone drive down a straight road without swerving off and labelling it some new driving technique. It’s called “driving properly”, that’s what it looks like and what you’re taught to DO lol

    “aaand, doing it properly = you NEED to pump the alpha BEHAVIORS to get massive attraction FIRST… and then dial that attraction back by sliding in some beta BEHAVIORS… calibrated to keep you in her ‘zone of hypergamous optimization’… (maybe 2 points up from what she thinks she is…)… ”

    This.

    “and this is why we are saying that ‘beta’ behaviors are not ‘bad’…lol… they are a NECESSARY part of calibration… which leads to her hypergamous optimization… which ALSO leads to the possibility of stable LTRs…”

    And this. That’s why it goes A1-A3 THEN C1 – C3. Attraction FIRST, so that she has A2 and WANTS your Comfort. This is why normal guys suck when they approach, they don’t understand A1-A3 at ALL so they just open and try to go right into C1 and the girl doesn’t WANT the C1 yet. The C1-C3 BALANCE OUT the A1-A3.

    THIS IS BASIC MYSTERY METHOD lol The 7 hours thing was about the minimum time it takes to get this DEEP SOUL TOUCHING GIVE HER BODY MIND AND SOUL TO YOU connection. That’s why it was so AMAZING that he codified it like that lol

  69. @sentient

    lol follow your own advice mister “OMG GUESS WHAT SHE SAID SHE LIKES! SHE VALIDATED MEEEEE YAAAAAAY!”

    i mean….

  70. “”Those aren’t cheat codes though. They’re just “how things actually work, but our social conditioning has blinded us to seeing/accepting that”.

    they are cheat codes because looks do in fact matter all across nature. symmetry, color, a lion’s mane…. for sexually reproductive species with some kind of visual sense, looks do matter or else energy would not be expended to display them or analyze them for clues to fitness

    but if you know the cheat code (all cheats are different. some allow you extra hit points, or offensive weapons while others allow you to jump levels or access secret areas) to get around “looks matter” then you aren’t seeing how things actually work (allowing the default program to run with all its social conditioning included) but making them work for you (by altering the parameters of the current default game with the correct code at the correct time).

    “They SEEM like cheat codes, just like the “Deep Conversion” SEEMS like it’s special to guys who don’t know how to get “Deep Conversion” regularly and understand how it’s just a larger pizza with the right balance of toppings but nothing fundamentally different or special, but they aren’t ACTUALLY cheat codes. They’re just the natural order of things.”

    lol. if you can get a “deep conversion” regularly then it’s not really a deep conversion. and it’s not just a larger pizza. its got the same ingredients of course, but it is an entirely different dish.
    I’ve been digging for well over a decade and one thing I’ve realized is that despite all women being exactly the same, they are all entirely different and just when I think the conversion has gone as deep as it can go, she surprises me. I don’t know what she is, but it’s not a pizza.

    of course you can make a girl “fall in love with you” in a night. that is not special. some would even argue that is the natural order of things – the spontaneous rollercoaster ride leads to a pregnancy. but outside of guys like Manson, you can’t make her willing to violate her most deeply held moral convictions or go to prison for you in a night. no fucking way. a true deep conversion, where your values and vision become hers, takes time. every girl you think you’ve “converted” would sell you out in a heartbeat to save her own ass.

    and a deep conversion is not the natural order of things. the woman should always put her children and her life ahead of that of her man. that’s certainly what I would expect as men don’t need womens help to live, especially in times of great crisis. our survival as a species requires that women understand “women and children first”. it is not some noble gesture on the part of men because the women have already decided that’s how it is. you can’t give what’s already been taken.

    in a deep conversion she abandons her primary reproductive objective (women and children first) for a new one, you first. a true deep conversion is like that of abraham – “kill me a son”. godlike devotion.

    the deep conversion is an actual conversion, using cheat codes to get around nature and the dna’s only goal which is to survive, in order to get her to have a new goal: obedience to you

  71. @rollo

    “You and Scray are explicitly saying you want the girl to stop short of full investment, right?”

    NO LOL

    Literally we are saying that WHATEVER YOU WANT WITH A GIRL pretty much will depend on the balance between alpha and beta traits. if you want to sleep with her quickly you will need more alpha than beta. however, if you want her to fall in love with you, you will need some beta in there.

    like you can do whatever the fuck you want. we’re just saying ‘here’s how you do this and how you do that, and it’s simple and boils down to this.’

    sometimes you may want her to not fall in love. sometimes you may want her to. it all depends on what you want. we already said that you can’t go full alpha unless you just want a lifetime of ONS.

    there

    hope we can put that misunderstanding to bed

  72. @fleezer
    “lol. if you can get a “deep conversion” regularly then it’s not really a deep conversion. and it’s not just a larger pizza.”

    “but outside of guys like Manson, you can’t make her willing to violate her most deeply held moral convictions or go to prison for you in a night. no fucking way.”

    That’s what guys who can’t get deep conversion regularly think because it’s an outlier special thing that happens. It’s LITERALLY laid out in Mystery Method, that Julien video, etc how to purposely trigger that deep a connection.

    Fucking Blue Pill jizzing all over this place lately lol wtf are you guys DOING infield??

  73. Straight up: who here has legitimately read Mystery Method cover to cover and watched his seminars where he explains stuff in more depth (and ideally gone out and followed MM start to end a bunch, but I’ll settle for even just actually reading it lol)?

    And who here has watched that Julien clip I linked up above (and ideally some more RSD clips about that subject)?

    Like, we’re having a conversation where where one side is WILDLY misinformed or lacking education about the subject and thinks that the baseline thing that we DO is some special magic that can only be done rarely.

  74. @sentient

    oh….welp your direct approach worked well because an asian 8 is a white 7 and if she’s 30 she’s like a young white 6 and because you’ve mentioned you’re a fairly good looking guy, well, there you have it.

    we gotta get you approaching hb9 18-24 year olds.

    point.

  75. I still disagree Rollo – and as you know, I wrote out a lengthy response on each post you cross-referenced with specific reason-based counterpoints.

    From an old Reddit thread I just came across today, some poster named ‘OldRedder’ sums it up better than I did, in fact:

    “Love doesn’t get 2 different meanings based on which gender expresses it. Flat out: women exploit, take, lie and repeat. They have the audacity to call it love, to be 100% selfish.”

  76. Scray. Pointless… Increasingly so. And your math lately is hysterical… You are a guy going around rating yourself on a HB scale and playing mixy matchy on numbers while saying looks dont matter etc out of the other side of your mouth. And then the gifs…

    Prediction – when you become a dynamic, passionate and authentic guy then you will get it. Bookmark this for that day, should it ever come.

    #ITYS

  77. @fleezer
    The reason you guys think it can’t be done quickly is because it took you a long time to groom it in your girls, so you assume “well I’m awesome, and it took me X time and circumstances (to hit the right switches partly consciously and partly by fluke)” and can’t imagine that you can build that “go to jail for you” connection FAST. And you’ll just disqualify any girls we do it with as “oh well that wasn’t a REAL connection” or “oh that was just a certain type of girl” etc etc because this goes outside of your reality.

    Why do you guys think Mystery Method was so mindblowing to everyone and spawned a massive wave like it did? It wasn’t just because “hey we can get our dick wet and get some basic attraction for a few hours”. It was because he was literally unlocking how to get this level of deep connection you guys keep describing, but FAST, like 7 hours of face time with her.

    What Scray and I are doing is the MODIFIED version of MM/PUA so that we can have more casual relationships. What MM/PUA teaches at it’s core is GETTING this Manson style “violate her morals for you” connection FAST.

  78. Question. Who here has satisfied hypergamy… Over the long haul… Who has had ride or die girls. Who has had women bear their offspring?

    At least Mystery has…

  79. @sentient

    just because you don’t really get the point doesn’t mean there isn’t a point. but feel free to ask questions to clarify some issues you have trouble with.

    and no i’m not rating myself, but cool assumption. there are plenty of places where you can get yourself and your photos rated. it’s not mixy matchy. it’s field tested. anybody who is out in the field will probably have similar observations about how race and height and others shit affect your passive SMV.

    while saying looks dont matter etc out of the other side of your mouth.

    it’s only “out the other side” of my mouth for people who don’t get it. one last time: certain looks are linked to certain alpha or beta traits vis social conditioning. so the objective LOOK doesn’t matter. the distribution of alpha beta traits people have been conditioned to associate with you is what matters. and with game you can manipulate that, so yes, in conclusion LOOKs don’t really matter.

    so knowing how people rate you is useful information because it lets you know where you initially stand and what work you have to do in either direction.

    dynamic, passionate and authentic guy

    since that shit means everything and nothing, all guys are DPA, including me.

  80. Me: “I don’t see this as the same thing as properly executed PUA game. Because of different goals.”

    Scray: “Even though it LITERALLY is the same thing externally, somehow the intent changes everything.”

    There goes your confirmation bias again. What I am saying is that in my opinion I don’t think it is the same thing externally. STR vs. LTR. The intent is exactly the same.

    Having good PUA game and deep conversion are the same thing internally.

    And once again precisely because: “The MRP sub is littered with stories of guys whose wives love them well enough, and may be attracted to them well enough to sustain that marriage, but they simply don’t see their husbands as a Hypergamous ideal”

    I’m the first one to state that Game is the same across all relationship platforms.

    Externally long term relationship is not the same as short term relationship game. Especially when the guy playing the game explicitly does not want a LTR. (And not that there is anything wrong with that.) The whole point of the original post was in keeping the girl.

    Perhaps you didn’t read Krauser’s original post:

    If there’s one thing I do better than everyone else I’ve ever met, and do to a level where I don’t think I need ever improve, it is to deeply convert a girl. I used to call it Soul Collection and I’d gotten halfway through writing a book on it before Skeletor persuaded me not to. There’s plenty of guys out there who are better than me at getting women whether its lone-wolfing in bars/clubs or creaming off the top tier girls with little effort. That’s fine. I do my best and it’s acceptable to me. Game isn’t about gangbanging supermodels every weekend, it’s about improving your access to women over and above what you’d otherwise get.

    But sometimes I shake my head when I hear how little control some guys have over their women, ending in a lose-lose inverse/low polarity relationship rather than a win-win balanced maledomfemsub. As Tolstoy remarked in opening Anna Karenina:

    “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

    Done correctly courting and relationships are plain sailing. Done incorrectly the pressure builds and bursts out in all manner of unpleasant acting out from disobedient women, lost in existential directionless dread, and pissing and moaning from delusional men.

    Things like:

    –MRAs whining about getting divorce raped or losing their oneitis

    –PUAs jumping through endless hoops to score a little extra pussy

    –Name PUAs redefining their end goals to deny happy committed girls can be kept in that state long term

    –Manosphere speculation on women’s incapacity to love men as they wish to be loved

    All four of these problems are real and unavoidable within their own terms and in very specific cases. I don’t deny the legal system is anti-male, nor do I deny the rigmarole of dealing with bitchy shit-testing women, or the deep-seated genuine differences between male and female hardwiring for love. But these are extremes. The men who suffer most are those who have conditioned themselves to be soft targets, oblivious to danger signals. Even in the depths of the Great Depression, male unemployment was never above 25%, meaning 3/4 of men had jobs. It’s the weak and stupid who bear the brunt so while it’s worth outlining exactly what that brunt is, don’t become obsessed with it. If you know how to deeply convert a girl you are managing the risk to almost zero.

  81. Scray

    If you are following your advice you are rating yourself on the scales you point to….

    Scratch off “authentic”… Start over.

  82. @Sentient
    “Who has had women bear their offspring?”

    lol the only reason I don’t have a fucking ARMY of baby YaReallys out there is because of condoms. But the VAST majority of the girls I fuck would HAPPILY get preggers by me or try to stick it in raw (running on their hindbrain emotions in the moment BECAUSE I’M RUNNING PROPER GAME TRIGGERING THEIR HYPERGAMY lol) etc

    TIL guys don’t really know what PUA is. wtf.

  83. @ Rollo a comment by me without any links in reply to Scray got eaten by Moderation.

    “….wtf are you guys DOING infield??”

    LoL can I have the definition of infield for all of us OMG’s spiking attraction deep converting our wives.

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