Deep Conversion

conversion

About four years ago Nick Krauser dropped a quick-hit post on his blog called Deep Conversion. I made a mental note in my head about this concept back then because, in spite of the brevity of it, I really thought Nick was on to something much more significant. The direction of my recent discussions both on this blog and a few other forums I read got me thinking about Nick’s observations.

I had an old reader (who want’s me to believe he’s a new reader) dig back through my archives and reheat an old debate about conflating my post about women’s concept of love with, “women are incapable of love – at all.” Over the five years that this blog’s been online I’ve gone to great lengths to define my position on the differing concepts of love either gender holds, and what influences the origins of love for either gender. I wont do a remedial post to reassert my points on this here. If you’re new reader and unfamiliar with that expansive series of posts I’ll refer you the Love category on my side bar links. However, to restate the premise for today’s post so everything is clear:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

In its simplicity this speaks volumes about about the condition of Men. It accurately expresses a pervasive nihilism that Men must either confront and accept, or be driven insane in denial for the rest of their lives when they fail to come to terms with the disillusionment.

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

That bolded part there was always emphasized for a very important reason – to avoid the misperception in men that women are entirely incapable of love, and to make a distinction about men’s Blue Pill hope that a woman could love him according to his idealistic concept of love. As I said, there is an expansive series on my ideas about this, and it requires an (I believe rewarding) investment of time and comprehension in understanding them. Sorry, but there is no TL;DR version here.

When I wrote this, and during my deliberating it, I fully expected to get this most common response I get from men still stinging from a more cynical Red Pill awakening. And that is the want to believe that women’s Hypergamy prevents them from ever feeling a “genuine” love or a genuine desire for men beyond what their most immediate opportunistic need may be according to their sexual strategy – short term breeding or long term security. Generally, it’s newly unplugged guys who want to accuse me of not thinking it all the way through because I need some hopeful rationale to justify my 20-year marriage, or they think I’ve never considered Briffault’s Law.

Concepts & Expectations

I expected all of this when I wrote my early essays on men and women’s differing concepts of love. And while I’ve covered the idea of love being a complementary arrangement between men and women each holding differing concepts in prior essays, one thing I haven’t explored is what Nick calls the “Deep Conversion” a woman goes through and what she feels for a man with whom she genuinely falls in love with.

Nick refers to this process as a kind of ‘soul surrender’ in which a woman recognizes a Man’s inherent value to both her short term sexual, and long term security needs. From her perception, this guy represents her Hypergamous ideal. Such is his sexual market value in relation to her own that it puts all but the most deeply rooted doubts of his quality to rest for her and opens her to associating him with an emotional state.

I should also point out that this emotional state needn’t always be a positive association; just that the association he represents is an ideal situation her hindbrain interprets as Hypergamously optimal. If that dynamic seems like a recipe for potential abuse you’re not too far from the mark. This conversion comes as a result of a woman’s perception of her Hypergamous need and her own SMV in comparison to what she believes that man’s  SMV is in relation. Shaking a woman out of the devotion she has with an abusive husband/boyfriend is really shaking her out of the perception that he represents her Hypergamous ideal.

That optimal state is also qualified by her own self-perception of her sexual market value, and again prioritized by her most necessitous needs for her phase of maturity. However, given all these variables, that man’s perceived value to her Hypergamy is always valued as higher than her own. Hypergamy never seeks its own level, but always looks for a better-than deserved SMV comparison. In terms of SMV ratios-to-attachment Deep Conversion takes place somewhere between a 2:1 to 3:1 variance.

Most guys are simply incapable of inspiring this kind of total soul surrender and devotion in a women. Most women never get to feel it and instead must get off on Deep Conversion Lite through sugar-rush books like 50 Shades of Grey. It’s the difference between spinning plates with fuck buddies and having a genuine harem where all your girls are exclusive to you. The women aren’t aligning with you out of cold calculation or temporary strung-out groupie lust, the connection runs far far deeper and feels wholesome to both of you.

This was an excellent observation on Nick’s part, however, I think it’s important to consider this bit in terms of why most men are incapable of instilling a Deep Conversion state in women. The first reason is that most men (being Beta) already presume that any woman who would find them suitable for a monogamous commitment must already feel this sense of Deep Conversion otherwise they’d never agree to that commitment. This is part of the Blue Pill conditioning for Beta men – any girl who says “yes” to him must necessarily see him as her Hypergamous ideal. Most men lack the Red Pill awareness that women regularly make long term relationship decisions based on security needs, not because that guy represents her Hypergamous ideal.

Women would rather cry over an asshole than be saddled with a guy who bores them to tears. That doesn’t sell very well with Blue Pill men raised on Disney dreams, but women readily get into LTRs where the Beta they pair with is no comparison to the Alpha she’s widowed from; for whom she had a Deep Conversion with. And as Nick says, this is when they look to manufacture their own indignation and the excitement they lack in cheap (but safe) substitutes.

Another reason most men never experience this is because, due their Blue Pill conditioning, never give themselves permission to become the conventionally masculine men with a dominance that women need in order to feel this conversion for him. Most Blue Pill men have been taught a default deference to women. Theirs is one of a ‘Nice’, passive sensitivity to a woman’s perceived wants, rather than a dominant knowing of her need which is born from a lifetime of learning to place his mental point of origin on the whims of women.

This may be my own interpretation, but I would also argue that both a woman’s evolved psychological filtering (testing) of a man’s Hypergamous qualifications and her socialized sense of self (ego) contribute to a woman resisting this Deep Conversion for a man. As a lot of men in the Married Red Pill and DeadBedroom subredd forums will attest, it’s entirely possible to spend your life with a woman who will never feel this conversion with a man.

Deep Conversion

Done correctly deep conversion is the most satisfying experience possible between a man and a woman. So long as you keep the elements in place, it has no natural time limit. I had my ex-wife in this state for eight of the nine years we were together (losing it only when I lost my mojo) and I’ve had four girlfriends in the past two years in the same position. I’ve got a few more on the boil now. It’s really not very hard to do if you have the following core competencies in place:

  1. An unshakeably strong frame. You are special, you know you’re special, and your masculinity is stratospheric compared to the chumps around you.
  2. Cheerful misogyny. You love women but don’t take them seriously. This is more than just the attraction phase teasing. You genuinely believe women are more like dogs or children, meaning they are a delight when well-lead and a nightmare when left ill-disciplined without a pack leader. It’s empathetic but not weak or equalist.
  3. Direction. Your life must be a straight line in a Deida-esque manner. Whether it’s your music, philosophy, career, fitness your life contains several arrows pointing the same direction… towards building the archetype of a fully developed man. If you are one-dimensional the girl will hold back.
  4. Sexual mastery. Understand that women crave dominance above all else in the bedroom. Give her the kind of sex that penetrates her soul. This isn’t high-fitness sport sex and G-spot finding. Those men will keep a woman around as her sexual provider, the guy she goes to when she wants a good fucking, the bedroom equivalent of a qualifying beta chump. A sexual master rocks a girl psychologically so even a half-assed knee trembler in a public toilet has her dreaming for weeks afterwards. The girl dreams of pleasing him, not him pleasing her.

All four elements increase with age if you live your life correctly. I don’t want to write too much about it and certainly the book will never be released. Just be aware that it has it’s own ego traps, its own risks…. but it is possible. When you’re tired of the notch-carousel you might want to look into it.

Much of what Nick is outlining here is Red Pill 101 and I’d also add that Roissy’s original 16 Commandments of Poon would fill out this list more completely. What I’m exploring here, however, is the concept of how this Deep Conversion fits into the framework of men and women’s individualized concepts of love. On the one hand I have men who are critics tell me I’m in error because women’s opportunistic concept of love doesn’t meet their criteria for what love ought to be between a man and a woman – a mutually shared, unconsciously agreed upon, concept that aligns with men’s idealistic (love for love’s sake) concept.

Yet still, they don’t disagree with my assessment that women’s concept of love is rooted in optimizing their innate Hypergamy and manifests as an beneficent opportunism (beneficent in terms of quality control for the human race, not necessarily for men). This is where the conflict starts. If a male-idealistic concept of love is the correct one, and women lack a capacity to understand, appreciate or engage in that concept in a genuine, organic fashion then women entirely lack the capacity for love as men would define it. This is the deductive logic that tears men up when I explain men and women’s differing concepts of love. Their definition has to be the correct one, and if it is then women cannot love men. For guys reeling from the initial hopelessness that their Blue Pill world was always an exploitative fantasy, it’s hard for them to accept that their concept of love is only subjectively correct for them.

Blue Pill Idealism

Much of this hopelessness stems from the all-is-equal mentality that the Blue Pill sells us when we’re being raised by the ‘Village’ of pop-culture. Equalism is the religion of the Feminine Imperative, so Blue Pill men are conditioned to believe that men and women, being co-equal, co-rational agents, would necessarily share a common concept of love. As with everything egalitarian, that equalism outright denies any innate differences physically or psychologically that would separate men and women or make them adversarial in sexual strategy or purpose in life. This premise, of course, is deftly twisted by the Feminine Imperative to make feminine-primary sexual strategies and women’s concept of love, the socially correct expressions of ‘equalism’.

But therein lies men’s conflict. The same influences that convince men their idealistic concept of love is the mutually shared one are also the influences that convince men that satisfying women’s socio-sexual imperatives ought to be their life’s priority and their mental point of origin if they ever hope to achieve that idealized love state. Take this Blue Pill path to that idealistic state away from men, and you get very despondent guys who don’t believe women have a capacity to feel actual love for them. It all becomes jumping through hoops to create a feeling of love in women whose criteria for a love that originates in their opportunistic concept they must constantly qualify for.

Women critics of this differing love concepts dynamic, unsurprisingly, personalize every experience they have, their friends have or their family ever had by referring to examples of their own selfless acts of devotion to a certain man. It’s always a story about how they gave everything to a (often unappreciative, unreciprocating) man they felt some undying idealistic love for themselves, and how dare I impugn their sincerity in it?

And again, I’ll add that the only way they came to this idealistic love was through a Deep Conversion they had with a man who satisfied their Hypergamous opportunism long before they were ever inspired to those selfless acts of devotion and sacrifice. For every Alpha Widow woman who ever gave herself over to that conversion and surrendered her soul to a guy who never reciprocated it, there are a hundred Beta men who will never inspire that degree of devotion in the wives who settled on marrying them. Statistically, 80% of men (Betas) will never inspire the Deep Conversion that 10-20% of men women feel it for did.

The Red Pill Conversion

When I wrote The Love Experience I was asked to elaborate on a quote I’d made about men and women both having the capacity to love each other deeply and passionately:

“Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures.”

For men who innately cling to an idealistic concept of love, their own kind of Deep Conversion can come in the form of ONEitis and develop into some very unhealthy dependencies. One of the reasons ONEitis is so common among men is because their Blue Pill conditioning predisposes them to putting women’s needs above his own and they see that as the path to sustaining this True Love state – a state defined by their idealism.

For women, this Deep Conversion can only result from a man who so thoroughly satisfies her Hypergamous nature she’s willing to abandon her own sexual strategy. And, like the guy with ONEitis, she dedicates herself to the one guy she was able to (she thinks) lock down who was a better-than-deserved Hypergamous prospect. Women get very upset when this dedication is questioned (not unlike the ONEitis guy) because they’ve generally abandoned furthering their sexual strategy by investing their egos into a guy who satisfied their Hypergamous natures. To doubt that devotion is to doubt the wisdom of her investment – and that goes down to her evolved biology and psychology in that choice. I should note here that Alpha Widows are born from this conversion.

However, for all of that inherent risk, and despite men and women’s differing concepts of love, men and women can and do come together in individual states of love (that they often believe the other shares) that are ‘genuine’ to them and also last a lifetime. I would argue that this state cannot exist without a woman’s Deep Conversion occurring after, and as a process of, her testing and evaluating the quality of the man she feels it for. And I would also argue that a man who commits himself to this woman must also feel some sense of his idealistic concept of love being validated by that woman who has devoted herself to him.

Under the old social contracts, and under the old set of books, this conversion in men and women was likely something much easier than it is today. Women are distracted by social and cultural influences that distorts their ever truly understanding their greatly diminishing value to men, and at the same time places so many men so far below women in general that this conversion and devotion will always seem demeaning to them – even for men who exceed them in SMV.

However, this Deep Conversion state is not an impossibility and it is not impossible to sustain it in a Red Pill aware paradigm. In fact, I’ll say that Red Pill awareness and internalized Game is really the only way to sustain it in an era of Open Hypergamy where Blue Pill conditioning of men is the norm, and women’s expectations of men are ridiculously low, but standards are ridiculously exaggerated.

For the Red Pill / Game aware guy, understanding this conversion and how to inspire it is something he ought to contemplate since so much of a woman’s ego becomes invested in her devotion to him once that conversion takes place. Conversely, Red Pill men should also understand, as Nick explained about his ex-wife, that this conversion is always tentative upon his own capacity to perpetuate it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Glengarry
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Then there was Pablo Picasso. He died in 1973, whereafter his second wife, his mistress and also a grandson committed suicide. (First wife was already dead. And his son drank himself to an early death too.) Years later [Picasso’s granddaughter] came to understand his relationship with women. ”He submitted them to his animal sexuality, tamed them, bewitched them, ingested them and crushed them onto his canvas,” she writes. ”After he had spent many nights extracting their essence, once they were bled dry, he would dispose of them.” http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/24/books/grandpa-picasso-terribly-famous-not-terribly-nice.html I seem to recall that the book mentioned in the article was… Read more »

Sentient
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Impregnate not equal to live birth… Not equal to raising…

theasdgamer
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“well I’m awesome, and it took me 30 minutes and alone with a girl in an apartment swimming pool in the afternoon (to hit the right switches partly consciously and partly by fluke)”

Totally by fluke…as in I splashed her with my flukes and swam between her legs, lol

fleezer
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“That’s what guys who can’t get deep conversion regularly think because it’s an outlier special thing that happens. It’s LITERALLY laid out in Mystery Method, that Julien video, etc how to purposely trigger that deep a connection.” lol. that deep a connection? when it’s time to actually nut up, a lot of this pua shit falls apart. any common born man with advanced pua knowledge (mystery, julien, etc) who made claims like “I deep convert women all the time” would immediately use his social skills to rise through the ranks of society to the very pinnacle of power. of course… Read more »

Sentient
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Pablo Picasso – girls could not resist his stare…

Ps – DPA guy

fleezer
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“lol the only reason I don’t have a fucking ARMY of baby YaReallys out there is because of condoms.”

are you sure? maybe you’re impotent.

redpillgirlnotes
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Hi atolls, it’s me, Bloom, from back at j4g. As usual, great insight here. I may write a post at my place about the female flip of this, but in a nutshell in a similar way women project that men love the same as women –hypergamously and opportunistically. And many of the relationship games women play stem from that (shit testing, etc) which is why when men play those games w women (hot/cold, neg, ghosting,etc.) they work so well on a woman’s level. He’s speaking her language, so to speak. I believe (myself included) women do not understand the steadfast… Read more »

The Lone Planet
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PUA is dead.

Red Pill is dead.

The Void is the only reality.

redpillgirlnotes
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In addition, I would bet most of the stuff pushed by the FI also stems from this disconnect. Women assume men will love as they do and are setting up “an escape hatch” when in reality most men don’t need those rules, women do.

redpillgirlnotes
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Or women need those FI rules applied to themselves, not to men. Men are for the most part not hypergamus and opportunistic by nature, but can learn to be in self defense.

SJF
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@Redpillgirlnotes That was a run-on comment. You should try using paragraphs for different thoughts. “……..Of course not understanding that all I was accomplishing was frustrating him and making him wall off further from displays of “love.” Almost all the relationship advice geared to women (The Rules, Men Love Bitches, etc.) are female projection. Few say the truth — he sees you, decides he loves you, and it’s that simple. He loves you. It’s a cruel fate of nature that men and women so don’t get each other, and modern social norms around relationships make it that much worse….. Check out… Read more »

scray
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@sentient

lol you had a chance to get your DPA cred with that HB9 in front of her mom. as expected….you did not. instead you went for the low hanging fruit.

the emperor, he has no clothes.

YaReally
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@fleezer “any common born man with advanced pua knowledge (mystery, julien, etc) who made claims like “I deep convert women all the time” would immediately use his social skills to rise through the ranks of society to the very pinnacle of power.” lolol that’s your weird insecurities over whatever powerlessness/envy of more important people than you that you have in your life coming through dude. This is possibly the dumbest logic I’ve ever heard. “PUA don’t real because none of them has taken over the world” lol “of course this has never happened and the so called great puas will… Read more »

rugby11
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YaReally
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(and to pre-empt the spergs who, when I say “there’s no point labelling it “social circle game” or “daygame””, are already typing up “BUT TEH RSD HAS SOCIAL SIRCLE GAME PRODUCT!!111 R U SAYING RSD IS WRONG!?!”, I mean the switches that you’re flipping in social circle game or daygame or that Manson was flipping etc are the exact same switches you flip in just normal “game”…”Social Circle” game is a focus on a different overall strategy for getting into a position TO flip those switches, but it all comes down to the same switches…it’s all the same pizza, just… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@YaReally “Like what is this sudden “Women Are Wonderful” shit? Now they’re so infallible and in control of their emotions and resistant to influence that a guy can’t come along, poke the right emotions, and get them to do shit for them? Buncha strong independent womyn AWALTS now?” Most guys trying to learn pick-up were not only NEVER FUCKED in highschool. To add injury to insult, they had ball-busting moms/sisters who daddy never actually dared to control or fuck with. And THAT’S if mommy and daddy weren’t abusive alcoholics. So guess who these men ACTUALLY think they’re meeting when they… Read more »

Carl
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” …one day when you’re older you’ll understand what it’s TRULY like to have a woman TRULY surrender her SOUL to you”

Women don’t have souls.

“…but it all comes down to the same switches”

Which is why game works like clockwork after enough in field experience.

SJF
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I’m still not buying it’s all the same, just different size pizza. And I actually watched the Julien Video. What I saw was not flipping the switches well for long term relationship game and raising children well to over 21 years old. With the premise that game is game across all relationship platforms, but long term relationship management can use a bit of long term switch flipping, otherwise renamed deep conversion. I mean that was great what Julien did to the Doctor girl. And it made for a great story. But the switches he was flipping were just for a… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@SJF “It’s one thing for a PUA like Julien to advance his own sexual strategy, it is entirely different for a man to get a woman to abandon her long term sexual strategy (with the premise that I state that there is there is nothing wrong with an OMG’s strategy for a LTR.)” This is EXACTLY the type of lop-sided agency, power-hungry men want to achieve. Maybe it just doesn’t work this way past a certain point for women. Perhaps the Deep Conversion point? It looks and feels totally different from the woman’s perspective. And even if you think all… Read more »

hank holiday
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@pua @yareally @culum @forge @habd @othergrain FR Mall. Asian. DVD store. Do the “were you at that party?” she’s immediately receptive, smiling, has the whole “omg WHO ARE YOU” vibe although more toned down that like julien gets. Almost immediately a guy shows up as I start talking. I just include him into the convo. Shake both their hands and get names. Tell them about predicting a trump win, wishing I had put money on it, but at least I still got free beers. Asian laughing and very engaged. Pushed for number from asian. I said something about how I… Read more »

SJF
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“We still throw out the ones who don’t click and go back to formula as to WHY they didn’t click and sarge on?” If you please. Your choice. What if Julien (in the video)wanted convert the young, attractive, wealthly doctor woman for a longer term relationship (he obviously didn’t want that). Wouldn’t the external method of Julien flipping her switches work differently for a pLTR? Here is Rollo’s previous comment without the extensive number of links stripped out: https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/25/for-better-or-worse/comment-page-8/#comment-171804 Rollo: I should add here that women DO need the correction of men. How this correction is implemented is really what’s… Read more »

hank holiday
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@pua @yareally @culum @forge @habd @othergrain

texted blonde girl

“You’ve had time to finish up your applications. Reward yourself and blow off some steam. Meet me at x place in 20 min.”

Sentient
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Scray

200 internet warrior points for meaningless retorts… And two gif credits…

When you get to the supra game state you realize you dont have to chase every snatch to prove anything. You also realize you can if you want to.

Keep grinding you are close to clocking your PUA Alpha Card… But it wont make up for all the time spent looking up to alphas…

Pussy is just pussy when in abundance mindset.

Time you take a step and Get Over It…

Sentient
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Rollo

The issue is clear… You’ve expanded on it very well. Guys coming from a scarcity frame will continue to fight for what they yet cant attain… Fear is a powerful motivating force. Fear of loss of self identity makes those so invested hysterical.

Witness continued sjw meltdowns on Trump…

Mike Wilcox
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Maybe it’s because I’m an old bastard and tend to simplify things, but I simply see it as “It is what it is until it isn’t”.., once they start rolling their eyes it’s only a matter of opportunity.

Carl
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“Pussy is just pussy when in abundance mindset.”

This is false. NotAllPussyIsLikeThat, some pussy is hotter, wetter, and tighter than others.

” Guys coming from a scarcity frame will continue to fight for what they yet cant attain…”

It’s quite difficult to have an abundance mentality when the scarcity of young, fit, attractive, women is real.

Sentient
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Carl….

Depends on where you fish.

Fish in stocked ponds…

Will do wonders for your mindset.

Take that pussy off the pedestal…

Carl
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“Depends on where you fish.
Fish in stocked ponds…”

Spoken like we exist in a vacuum, sorry but the real world doesn’t work that way.

Joe K
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Discussion seems to be going far afield. Rollo’s post was about asserting ‘deep conversion’ as a barometer and ‘proof of’ a woman’s capacity to demonstrate *love*. If anything all the comments further reinforce to me that – in examining this ‘deep conversion’ concept – even in it’s ‘purest’ form we arrive at something that the King’s English would define as being FAR closer to ‘attachment’ than ‘love’. This is, quite predictably, highlighted by first-hand accounts of crazy obsession that’s almost perfectly synonymous with the ‘deeply converted’ women some have written about in the comments above. We would never claim that… Read more »

Elite Manhood
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If you aren’t able to have an explicit harem with all the ladies knowing their role you can’t get Deep Conversion.

rugby11
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hank holiday
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@pua @yareally @culum @forge @habd @othergrain blonde girl continues to text she texted me back “Can’t make it tonite, sorry.” “You’re really sticking to this A+ student story aren’t you?” “Its important to me.” “Sure sure. But I think you are really just looking up guys on tinder.” “I’m not even on tinder!” “A likely story. Who did you pick. Juan the mexican bodybuilder or Dominic the artiste?” “I don’t follow.” “Lol. Which dude from tinder did you pick for tonight? The bodybuilder or the artist?” that’s where I am at now. trying to get a bit of sexual convo,… Read more »

rugby11
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More along the lines of this.
https://instagram.com/p/BLmhDKWBTQA/

rugby11
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SJF
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@ http://prof.chicanas.com/5Q/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/ls-150×150.jpg ” …one day when you’re older you’ll understand what it’s TRULY like to have a woman TRULY surrender her SOUL to you” Women don’t have souls. “…but it all comes down to the same switches” Which is why game works like clockwork after enough in field experience. “Pussy is just pussy when in abundance mindset.” This is false. NotAllPussyIsLikeThat, some pussy is hotter, wetter, tighter than others. ” Guys coming from a scarcity frame will continue to fight for what they yet can’t attain…” It’s quite difficult to have an abundance mentality when the scarcity of young, fit,… Read more »

walawala
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I read Krauser’s post a few years back too and it confused me as it does today. I’ve been working hard to shed all my backlog of Blue Pill thinking. I now work on the idea of having a rotation knowing that at any moment a girl will drop out. I had a girl I was banging who was completely loyal to me…AT THAT TIME…I would have thought it was “Deep conversion”….I still hesitated treating her as a plate. She banged a friend of mine because…..hypergamy. The checklist is a vital part of the Red Pill transformation. I don’t think… Read more »

Scray
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@sentient

Lol at the male hamster.

It’s okay bro, you bitched out. Next time!

Anonyous Reader
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Ok, so now we have Deep Conversion. Does this mean someone’s gonna come up with Shallow Conversion and Medium Conversion, and then some other AMOG will decide that his relationship is Ultra-Deep Conversion with a Deida cherry on top? Looks like attraction. Deep attraction or not, attraction. Or if you want to, call it commitment. But for crying out loud, do we have to keep on creating new assumptions / terms /etc.? Occam’s Razor: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Also quoted as “Do not multiply entities unnecessarilly”. Good observations, redpillgirlnotes, consider rewriting in… Read more »

SJF
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“I like the concept, but I see “deep conversion” still as unicorn thinking….it’s more fantasy than reality.” It is the goal. The reality doesn’t always come to fruition. I see it all the time “in the field” of medicine: we seek a goal of treatment for patients. It often doesn’t get to that goal. It is still “the goal”. Patients have trouble with not taking it as it comes or not having access to the actual prognosticating crystal ball of what the future holds. Some human behavior is not your idea of normal. You can’t control that. You can be… Read more »

Blaximus
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@ Rollo, Thanks for writing about this subject. I figured if you did expound on the deep conversion aspect, numerous posters would absolutely lose their everloving shit. I was not wrong either. Problem is, for men that haven’t experienced this, it is inconceivable. Hard to grasp. Impossible to execute. Therefore it’s very lol_able and, of course, it must be BP. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Any mention of the word ” love ” will set a shitstorm in motion. So men should only ever gain understanding for short term goals in life. But when men decide they’d like more out of life… Read more »

Blaximus
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….oh yeah, if Owen, Julien and RSD didn’t make a video about it, it is laughably invalid.

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“Ok, so now we have Deep Conversion. Does this mean someone’s gonna come up with Shallow Conversion and Medium Conversion, and then some other AMOG will decide that his relationship is Ultra-Deep Conversion with a Deida cherry on top?” This exact thought was popping up in my head today as I was out mowing up leaves. Is it just nomenclature, or is there actually an issue with YaReally and Scray in that they want to argue for Medium or Shallow conversion? I thought so. A struck nerve there? I could be wrong. But I’ll take Ball’s Deep Conversion any day.… Read more »

Blaximus
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Quick question for readers, newbs, lurkers, Masons and such.

Q: what is your perception of the goals of RP awareness vs PUA? Must the 2 always match up 100%? Are the goals of both exactly the same?

Do a majority of readers here want RP knowledge in order to achieve the short term goal of pussy, or are you looking for ” something else ” ???

Curious.

Make America Great Again AFC
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I didn’t really read this article but I am totally fucked over what happened tonight, so I guess here’s my little FR: In the club, 80/20 man to woman ratio (best in the city), dancing on the floor, see this girl grinding on a guy near me. Catch eye contact, she comes over, starts dancing with her ass on my dick, then turns around and slaps me. I absolutely didn’t expect this, I catch her by her hair, pull her down and shout on her what the fuck was that and to not do that again. She starts kissing me,… Read more »

SJF
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Yep, I like the original post. Because game should be for every man. https://therationalmale.com/2014/07/08/game-and-circumstance/ I kind of cut and chopped Rollo’s post on Game and Circumstance to fit a narrative below. The narrative that life is more than just PUA Game. But only because he was on an Appalachian Mountain High and disjointed in his writing there: Game is only going to be as liberating for a man in as far as he’s willing to accept it in terms of his own circumstance. Not Just Sex Game gets a lot of misconstrued criticism in that ignorant critics presume Game only… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
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In recent months I’ve seen three couples sleeping rough in London. One of these couples I saw every day for weeks on end. The woman was regularly coughing and vomiting. She was in a bad way. On hindsight, she was older than her partner and his SMV was higher than hers. Which explains the relational aspect of their bonding. Hypergamy isn’t a factor here. I understand women can’t always express their love in terms of sex. But no one seeing her with him, in those conditions, could doubt her devotion to him. Where I take umbrage is with Rollo’s response… Read more »

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Blaximus, simple questions: Did you achieve “Deep Conversion” with your first wife? If “no”, why not? If “yes”, why didn’t it last? Seems to me that “conversion” should be something that’s one and done, and it doesn’t revert backwards. Not “requires daily maintaining”, and “could revert to previous state at any given moemnet”, but that’s probably just my own perspective. For example, in the business world software conversions are always one-way, they don’t get rolled back as a general rule. So I frankly still don’t see the need for yet another word for all y’all to haggle over and re-re-redefine… Read more »

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Rollo So we don’t like the term “conversion”? Sounds too permanent and we can’t have noobs thinking they have anything like ‘set it and forget it’? I dunno who “we” is, but “deep conversion” looks like one of those permanent sort of things to me, like something out of Advanced $cientology (“Since Mary went trhough Deep Conversion she’s been cleared of most of her Thetans”). Not to mention the religious overtones that should be glaringly obvious to you, even if Krauser can’t or didn’t notice them…and yes, that really does matter given that churchgoing, religious men need game just as… Read more »

rugby11
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Demonstrate not explicate
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=COTrB7N7EOA
Deep conversion

IAS
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@YaReally: in another post I asked about differences between C1, C2 and C3. Someone posted a summary that boiled it down and I interpreted asdoing the same thing but in different venues (C1 at attraction spot, C2 repeat at another venue or within venue at differente spot, C3 repeat at Seduction location). Is that it? Because I never understood it properly from MM.

Kayos
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@Blaximus “Q: what is your perception of the goals of RP awareness vs PUA? Must the 2 always match up 100%? Are the goals of both exactly the same?” I see the red pillers as the theorists and puas as the experimentalists. Otherwise, they’re basically the same thing. “Do a majority of readers here want RP knowledge in order to achieve the short term goal of pussy, or are you looking for ” something else ” ???” Abraham Maslow had an interesting theory about this. He proposed that human motivations could be put in a hierarchy of needs, with physiological… Read more »

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@ Rollo Great essay, haven’t read the comments yet so hope this question has not been posted already. How many times can a woman become al “alpha widow” ? If it is more than once does the second, third… Etc man have to be objectively better than the preceding “widow maker ” to attain the title? Else will she always mourn the original/best of these alphas unless a better one comes along or is “alpha widowhood” a once in a lifetime deal? Knowing the answer to this could be crucial to a man who meets an alpha widow he would… Read more »

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@IAS – That is my understanding of MM as well, interested in Ya’s response too. @Ya – I’ve read MM and watched the vids. I have never run a set to conclusion in the way he describes. I do use a lot of the attraction building, rewarding, comfort building etc that he uses but in more of my long term Uncle Fuck Buddy game, lol. It’s funny, I met another young hottie who told me she loved how I spoke. That’s three in a row where my verbal abilities and way of expressing myself has been singled out, “I love… Read more »

Blaximus
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Why is it when asked direct questions here must certain commenters go on the fucking attack always, or quote what somebody else said once, or make some sideways comparison with something else, or talk about starving men?

It’s getting to be a routine. Formulaic. Lol.

Aight. So it’s not possible to have a serious conversation anymore.

Cool. That’s the answer to my questions right there in a nutshell. Well carry on with what truly matters in life. A1, A3 to C2 is the answers to the meaning of life.

Fuck learning anything else, right?

RP now stands for Red PUA. All hail.

Kate
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Insightful.

Mark calls it “la pareja ideal.”

When the conversion is genuine, commitment is a natural (and even desirable!) consequence.

Blaximus
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@ AR I won’t use my marriage(s) as examples of anything here any longer. Fool me once, and all that. And btw, I’m using a smallish tablet, so the spacing works better for me. @ Scrib The issue to my mind is that a DC is different than just attraction like a firecracker is different in relation to a nuke. For some, an explosion is just an explosion always. A gun is just a gun, a sparrow and a hawk are simply birds. Imo, a DC chick is not something many men understand or even want. In reading some of… Read more »

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A little motherly love from a devoted Democrat towards her son.
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGoatg4ciyc&w=560&h=315%5D

Blaximus
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@ AR Re: conversion being a one and done. On a few occasions, I’d converted a normally aspirated Chevrolet motor into a supercharged one. This included raising the compression within the motor by changing the pistons, and swapping the camshaft, valves and springs, increasing the flow rate of the heads, and installing a larger carburetor. Nominally, I could double the horsepower in this type of conversion. Once completed, this conversion required anhigher degree of tuning, adjustment and maintenance than a normal aspirated motor. I learned to ” read ” sparkplugs as an indication of the internal health of the motor.… Read more »

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@rollo

EPIC TROLL +1000

“These fucken young insolent cultists wants some unity and clarity in the terminology of alpha/beta? Who the fuck do they think they are? Here, let me create some confusion in the attraction terminology. Ha, that will show them.”

Trent Lane
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There is no doubt that what Julien describes in this video will get him “Deep Conversion” with girls. It’s like a Natural who gets in a fight with his girl and goes like: “Fuck you bitch you are out of my life I’m going to the bar there are enough bitches there to replace you!” and she storms off all tearing up and emotional, blowing up her friends phones all night and his too, meanwhile he gets drunk/wasted with his buddies, hits on girls and later that night (or the next morning/few days later) he is like “Sorry babe was… Read more »

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@Blaximus

Apologies. I assumed when you called out to lurkers and other commenters on the quoted post that you actually wanted some of our opinions.

If I sounded like I was attacking you, I really wasn’t. Just stating my opinion on the issue you asked feedback on.

If you didn’t want my opinion, I sincerely apologize again. Honest mistake. Won’t happen again.

Zoe Bowman
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Great article – from a woman’s point of view, it’s all true, having been in three relationships, I’ve only had deep conversion for one (my husband), who conforms to all of the points mentioned that inspire deep conversion. You don’t have to be some kind of super man-god to have deep conversion, my husband is very human – not classically good looking but I am still biochemically attracted to him after many years – yes, he has flaws but far more important is the frame, attitude, life direction etc. Fantastic writing, definitely rings true. Thanks. On a side note, misogyny… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@SJF Relationship Game (Rollo may have covered some of this in his second book) …assumes you’re living together …want to have kids or have kids 1. Rapport around the kids & house & other things you share in common 2. Understanding of/agreement about roles around house and kids coming from rapport 3. Rapport around date activities (e.g., dancing, movies, etc.) & sex 4. Emotional ride for the woman coming from the man…tingles…comfort…drama…validation 5. Hot sex for the man coming from the woman (lol, only if he teaches her to do it) 5. Mateguarding of self by both partners or at… Read more »

Blaximus
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@ kayos

Wasn’t addressing you specifically. I’m only alluding to a pattern that consistently emerges.

It contributes to a circular nature that blunts a different understanding. Everything isn’t always black and white.

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@YaReally And yet no one teaches MM today. RSD moved away from it. Now most of the individual tactics from Mystery are there but RSD’s framework is different. And they dropped the number system. My guess is that too few men were able to actually use Mystery’s method the way he envisioned it. The community moved more towards general principles and free-form conversation structures. I was just watching in-fields from Max’s Natural and Madison’s Boss and while you can see classic game tactics in there, it is also clearly not MM. IMO, what the newer guys do is much more… Read more »

MrT
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@blax Youre projecting that you want a discussion (lousy projection at that but anyway). So I figured I could help. Also bear in mind I speak for myself unless Im clarifying points of other commenters. “Thanks for writing about this subject. I figured if you did expound on the deep conversion aspect, numerous posters would absolutely lose their everloving shit.” Ill make note to use this expression instead of calling guys butthurt next time. “Any mention of the word ” love ” will set a shitstorm in motion.” Not too surprising when you base your arguments on it on a… Read more »

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Carl…

Re stocked ponds… The world DOES work that way. You should get out in it…

River North, Chicago… Meatpacking, NYC… South Beach, Miami… Bev Hills and West Hollywood, LA… Etc.

What is the avergae height and weight of the women in the Grotto? Why do you think RSD has been exploiting social circles now?

Do you know that lounges and clubs have doormen to explicitly keep the fugly away?

Money attracts the honey…

Blaximus
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I guess I’m asking for input from some non PUA adherents on an RP site.

I already know what to expect from ya and scray, and by extension mersonia and mr T. Always the same.

SJF
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@ASD Good points. I had a response to Scray in moderation yesterday (I can kind of see a triggerword in quoting Krauser) and it was released. https://therationalmale.com/2016/11/11/deep-conversion/#comment-178209 I was trying to make the point that externally the results of Julien’s cum-stained, unwashed shirt for a short term be in town relationship to a well provided for young woman doctor is not comparable to the points you describe as authentic long term relationship game. @Trent Lane “There is no doubt that what Julien describes in this video will get him “Deep Conversion” with girls.” No doubt. With 100% Alpha 24/7 Rollercoaster… Read more »

J.A.F.Y.K.
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@ Scray, ha ha. Funny you should say. I was really a late bloomer due to my Christian background mostly. My first girl was at 24 and @35 years of age now. I’ve been with 36 women total. Of the 36, I only paid for 3 of them. So in the grand scheme of things where does that leave me? Honestly I do better with girls in day game outside of club/bar scene. I’m on a dry spell though at the moment.

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@Scribblerg Re: Love-Game – I’ve heard this described before by PUAs too, but I just stumbled upon it and used it sparingly, cuz it really isn’t fair. Basically the entire game is about framing your interaction with a new women as “love at first sight” but you tease her with it. I stopped doing this because I thought it was really mean, lol. I was such a fucking blue pill sap in so many way. Both girls were very confused when I left afterwards and I don’t think they were “better off than when I found them”. I thought I… Read more »

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“Deep Conversion” .Ell Oh Mothertrucking Ell. I post this without sarcasm- why would you WANT a woman in love with you to begin with? All that brings is problems. Get the woman “in like” enough to bang you, then roll when the “let’s be exclusive ” talk pops off. If you’ve gamed her right that talk never happens- she knows you ain’t beta material and doesn’t even try the sales pitch. Deep feelings only lead to deeper problems for everyone involved. I had a plate who was in this state with me. She tried to lock down ol XD with… Read more »

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@ASDgamer Rapport around the kids & house…. Understanding of/agreement about roles around house and kids.. ….around date activities (e.g., dancing, movies, etc.) & sex Emotional ride for the woman coming from the man…tingles…comfort…drama…validation.. Hot sex for the man coming from the woman (lol, only if he teaches her to do it)… Mateguarding of self by both partners or at least total discretion so that egos don’t get bruised and STDs aren’t given to the partner… Separate hobbies/interests so that each gets alone time and personal goals to work on… So let me get this straight, LTR Game Infield consists of… Read more »

Joe K
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@Blaximus I see plenty of input on this blog from 1) PUA types, 2) long-time married guys who came to RP-awareness during their marriage and still make it work in 2016, 3) divorced guys who, in retrospect, recognize that a prior lack of RP-awareness contributed to the demise of their marriage and their suffering afterwards. What I don’t see – guys that got into a moderate-length (4 years) LTR *while RP-aware* and broke off that LTR because of RP truths. While perhaps not as fully RP-integrated as you or Rollo, etc – I am that guy, so here’s my take.… Read more »

theasdgamer
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“You don’t know me but will you sleep with me?” I’d put it like “I like you and think you’re lovely and I want to make love to you.” It’s about my wants and desires and she’s along for the ride (heh). M3 is just a switch that needs to be flipped…you can flip M3 before A1 if you like…you will become a big ping on her radar…you have to show amusement when you do it and follow it with lots of comfort and rapport. Last night I asked a girl to go outside (M3 when you attempt to isolate)… Read more »

theasdgamer
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From last night…

I asked another girl to go outside to cool off after dancing and she declined…she wouldn’t even go with me to the bar to get water, but wanted me to ask her to dance later…we danced and she was kinoing me later when we chatted…obviously, trying to encourage me to kino her…she and her gf and I went outside later…she was much more compliant…I pinged her early with M3, and she was compliant later…unfortunately, she was married and not on my menu…I really (YaReally) need to pay attention to the ring finger…she complained about her husband…Husband Destroyer Game

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Well I just typed this up in response to XD but it is actually ten times more appropriate to respond to Joe K. And this is not merely to tell Joe K just be a better man. But there is a point of red pill, and especially with married red pill and with intermediate term relationship Game, that it does make sense to make yourself better. Did you ever consider that it wasn’t just her, it might be you. And while I’m on the topic of masculine self improvement, which was kind of the theme of Krauser’s original post, as… Read more »

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The smiley up there came from smiley code from commenter referred to as X D.

Note the last two paragraphs in that last cut and paste. It could well have come out of Julien’s mouth in a video.

N1
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@YaReally, gb_hill, hank holiday, culum, learning PUAs I’ve read MM front to back and Juggler Method (JM) too, but you have to remember to put it in practise. The last 2 months I’ve been too much of an asshole to chicks, too aloof, not caring enough and not moving quickly to build a connection. I’ve got: “That’s the first time you’ve been nice to me”, “Finally you’ve been yourself”,”I’m just not that much a sarcastic person like you, it’s not how I am”, “There’s nothing worse than a deep person pretending to be an asshole”, “You’re constantly laughing at me”.… Read more »

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@YaReally, gb_hill, hank holiday, culum, learning PUAs Going back on the “just be yourself” idea, me being myself is not really caring, laughing with my friends and toying with girls in a flirty sarcastic manner. I’m not so good on comfort, get quite a lot of attraction. Had a discussion with a friend last night “just be yourself”. He had introduced me to a girl, I obtained attraction but instead of pushing my advantage, I “was myself” and larked with friends joking with her friends. Left open a window of opportunity. Before I realised it another dude had moved in,… Read more »

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This is pure gold. It’s exactly a year since I encountered the Red pill and I obviously reevaluated my approach on everything since then. Knowing is one thing, application is another, especially trying to escape a beta mindset. Trying to avoid the monogamy as goal approach with a plate I’ve just started spinning, trying to avoid the urge to see her as special, trying to avoid being the agreeable AFC that bombed all my previous relationships -but it’s far from easy. Articles like these continue to put things in piercing perspective. The rabbit hole keeps getting deeper

Culum Struan
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YaReally Sentient HABD Walawala Scray Hank Forge and PUA Quick Friday night FR. Out with wings but the downside of that is you get locked in a bit with what they want to do etc. One wing didn’t bring his ID and we didn’t get into the club we wanted. Some other places nearby but mostly half full and it was too late to go to another part of town. Wing had just had a breakup (SECOND chick in a row had cheated on him – even though he’s a good looking guy with a good job and good social… Read more »

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@Blaximus Quick question for readers, newbs, lurkers, Masons and such. Q: what is your perception of the goals of RP awareness vs PUA? I was thinking of how to answer, but could not figure out how to place my own experience into the framework of your questions. It was MrT that cleared it up for me with this statement: “Theres no such thing as RP goals or PUA goals. At best you could say that the goal of RP is to make the most men aware of RP. But thats it. Those are knowledge and tools.” RP awareness as knowledge… Read more »

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@ N1 Basic red pill theory, not advance Pickup advice: Think a little more in terms of developing Rapport. Not just comfort. I believe Mystery defines rapport as (comfort + trust). Men and women don’t get rapport the same way. Men can easily tolerate having rapport with others in a superficial manner. Men can do it logically as you are doing. You can have objective exchanges and abstract values (cocky and funny) for a long time without problems (for you). And you don’t feel bad about it. That is normal male process. Women process differently. They are more complicated and… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
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@Rollo This blog and the information contain herein is exclusively for men. Imagine if you also wrote a blog for women. Would much of the content change? Sure a few cosmetic changes. No Enter White Knight, no AFC, no Plate Theory (replaced with Orbiter Theory). Though game, dread and other forms of manipulation within the sexual marketplace would remain. I was thinking one of your entries in The Rational Princess would be: Added Value. In the essay ‘Women feel, Men don’t’, I wrote men are unable to process their feeling in way we would understand. A man has a rush… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
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@Rollo This blog and the information contain herein is exclusively for men. Imagine if you also wrote a blog for women. Would much of the content change? Sure a few cosmetic changes. No Enter White Knight, no AFC, no Plate Theory (replaced with Orbiter Theory). Though game, dread and other forms of manipulation within the sexual marketplace would remain. I was thinking one of your entries in The Rational Princess would be: Added Value. In the essay ‘Women feel, Men don’t’, I wrote men are unable to process their feeling in way we would understand. A man has a rush… Read more »

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@culum

Wing had just had a breakup (SECOND chick in a row had cheated on him – even though he’s a good looking guy with a good job and good social skills)

LOOKS MATTER BRAH

had genuinely been talking about whether an n-count of 80 was high for a 25 year old girl (my wing’s ex). Both my wings thought it was very high and I said I didn’t think it was that unusual for a HB7.5 25 year old ex sorority girl in a big city – not in probably 9-10 years of being sexually active.

lol.

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Blaximus I won’t use my marriage(s) as examples of anything here any longer. Fool me once, and all that. Ok. So hypothetically do you believe that Deep Conversion, whatever it may be, is a one-and-done thing or a state of mind that must be constantly maintained in a woman? If “must be maintained”, how is that different from any other form of female-to-male attraction? And btw, I’m using a smallish tablet, so the spacing works better for me. Then you proceeded to write in paragraphs, contradicting this in the very next sentence. C’mon, I know you think clearly and can… Read more »

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Blaximus
[Uprated horsepower in small block Chevy]
Anything operating and higher levels requires a higher level of competence and maintenance. but some are satisfied with ” standard “. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Legit. Thanks.

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Grabbing lunch downtown, their radio on some oldies station, this just came up while reading the thread. Shoe fits? Wear it.

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“Krauser didn’t experience conversion, he was just a victim of a long con.” I don’t buy it Ollie Oxen. Krauser freely admits fucking up by going blue pill beta. And then he moved on. To grief Acceptance relatively quickly. And make no mistake about the intent of Deep Conversion: Particularily geared toward LTR’s. Why? Krauser is a dyed-in-the-wool Myers-Briggs INTJ. “In romance, people with the INTJ personality type approach things the way they do with most situations: they compose a series of calculated actions with a predicted and desirable end goal – a healthy long-term relationship. Rather than falling head… Read more »

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@yareally @pua @hank Thought I would give a little update on my situation. Please comment if you find anything worth commenting about. Went out on 3 nights the Halloween weekend but sadly here Halloween is not that big an event and given that it clashed with local festivities, the scene was bland. Opened totally 15 sets in total on three days. Will only mention the highlights of the best sets . **** Friday Night Club : I opened a big 10 people mixed set seeing that they were having a birthday cake on the table. I opened the girl and… Read more »

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Culum… Sounds like a good headspace to be in. You do you… Ditch the wings and fly…. Went out to a great place forba dinner i was really looking forward to. Couple of drinks… Everything was splendid. Nice lounge down the street i wanted to try, so popped in there. Bar was full except down the end a couple of spots. Go sit there… Have a drink. Mostly dudes and couples. Late 20s 7 eating at the other end of the bar… So we are looking at each other. I peg her as a business traveler… Figure i will go… Read more »

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@Rollo, very good comment that expands on the OP. Will have to re-read and think about it for a while.

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@Rollo
Infogalactic, heh. heh. heh.

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@ AR My experience and perspective is that once ” DC ” ( look, I didn’t come up with the tag, but it fits ) happens with a woman, imo it’s even easier to maintain. This supposes that a man triggered this in a female by his natural behaviours. As with everything else, if the guy is faking and happens to stumble into this situation, he will see it as work and the clock is already ticking on his ass. It’s not the same as basic attraction. Many guys have a hard enough time achieving attraction and desire from a… Read more »

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@AR: “Infogalactic, heh. heh. heh.”

Today the planetary knowledge core, tomorrow the galaxy – and BEYOND!

@Blaximus: “Dudes don’t seem to grasp the concept . . .”

The Deep Conversion(tm) switch changes the polarity on other switches. If you ain’t seen it, you ain’t likely to believe it.

fleezer
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“This is possibly the dumbest logic I’ve ever heard. “PUA don’t real because none of them has taken over the world” lol” once survival needs are met, what is the one thing men want to do more than anything else? fuck many beautiful women. and if fucking many many beautiful women is proof of apex alpha social standing (as we are social animals), then a pua that can, as you claim, fuck any woman, would be that apex alpha because not only would his social savvy soak pussies, it would make men want to follow him and be him make… Read more »

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