Deep Conversion

conversion

About four years ago Nick Krauser dropped a quick-hit post on his blog called Deep Conversion. I made a mental note in my head about this concept back then because, in spite of the brevity of it, I really thought Nick was on to something much more significant. The direction of my recent discussions both on this blog and a few other forums I read got me thinking about Nick’s observations.

I had an old reader (who want’s me to believe he’s a new reader) dig back through my archives and reheat an old debate about conflating my post about women’s concept of love with, “women are incapable of love – at all.” Over the five years that this blog’s been online I’ve gone to great lengths to define my position on the differing concepts of love either gender holds, and what influences the origins of love for either gender. I wont do a remedial post to reassert my points on this here. If you’re new reader and unfamiliar with that expansive series of posts I’ll refer you the Love category on my side bar links. However, to restate the premise for today’s post so everything is clear:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

In its simplicity this speaks volumes about about the condition of Men. It accurately expresses a pervasive nihilism that Men must either confront and accept, or be driven insane in denial for the rest of their lives when they fail to come to terms with the disillusionment.

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

That bolded part there was always emphasized for a very important reason – to avoid the misperception in men that women are entirely incapable of love, and to make a distinction about men’s Blue Pill hope that a woman could love him according to his idealistic concept of love. As I said, there is an expansive series on my ideas about this, and it requires an (I believe rewarding) investment of time and comprehension in understanding them. Sorry, but there is no TL;DR version here.

When I wrote this, and during my deliberating it, I fully expected to get this most common response I get from men still stinging from a more cynical Red Pill awakening. And that is the want to believe that women’s Hypergamy prevents them from ever feeling a “genuine” love or a genuine desire for men beyond what their most immediate opportunistic need may be according to their sexual strategy – short term breeding or long term security. Generally, it’s newly unplugged guys who want to accuse me of not thinking it all the way through because I need some hopeful rationale to justify my 20-year marriage, or they think I’ve never considered Briffault’s Law.

Concepts & Expectations

I expected all of this when I wrote my early essays on men and women’s differing concepts of love. And while I’ve covered the idea of love being a complementary arrangement between men and women each holding differing concepts in prior essays, one thing I haven’t explored is what Nick calls the “Deep Conversion” a woman goes through and what she feels for a man with whom she genuinely falls in love with.

Nick refers to this process as a kind of ‘soul surrender’ in which a woman recognizes a Man’s inherent value to both her short term sexual, and long term security needs. From her perception, this guy represents her Hypergamous ideal. Such is his sexual market value in relation to her own that it puts all but the most deeply rooted doubts of his quality to rest for her and opens her to associating him with an emotional state.

I should also point out that this emotional state needn’t always be a positive association; just that the association he represents is an ideal situation her hindbrain interprets as Hypergamously optimal. If that dynamic seems like a recipe for potential abuse you’re not too far from the mark. This conversion comes as a result of a woman’s perception of her Hypergamous need and her own SMV in comparison to what she believes that man’s  SMV is in relation. Shaking a woman out of the devotion she has with an abusive husband/boyfriend is really shaking her out of the perception that he represents her Hypergamous ideal.

That optimal state is also qualified by her own self-perception of her sexual market value, and again prioritized by her most necessitous needs for her phase of maturity. However, given all these variables, that man’s perceived value to her Hypergamy is always valued as higher than her own. Hypergamy never seeks its own level, but always looks for a better-than deserved SMV comparison. In terms of SMV ratios-to-attachment Deep Conversion takes place somewhere between a 2:1 to 3:1 variance.

Most guys are simply incapable of inspiring this kind of total soul surrender and devotion in a women. Most women never get to feel it and instead must get off on Deep Conversion Lite through sugar-rush books like 50 Shades of Grey. It’s the difference between spinning plates with fuck buddies and having a genuine harem where all your girls are exclusive to you. The women aren’t aligning with you out of cold calculation or temporary strung-out groupie lust, the connection runs far far deeper and feels wholesome to both of you.

This was an excellent observation on Nick’s part, however, I think it’s important to consider this bit in terms of why most men are incapable of instilling a Deep Conversion state in women. The first reason is that most men (being Beta) already presume that any woman who would find them suitable for a monogamous commitment must already feel this sense of Deep Conversion otherwise they’d never agree to that commitment. This is part of the Blue Pill conditioning for Beta men – any girl who says “yes” to him must necessarily see him as her Hypergamous ideal. Most men lack the Red Pill awareness that women regularly make long term relationship decisions based on security needs, not because that guy represents her Hypergamous ideal.

Women would rather cry over an asshole than be saddled with a guy who bores them to tears. That doesn’t sell very well with Blue Pill men raised on Disney dreams, but women readily get into LTRs where the Beta they pair with is no comparison to the Alpha she’s widowed from; for whom she had a Deep Conversion with. And as Nick says, this is when they look to manufacture their own indignation and the excitement they lack in cheap (but safe) substitutes.

Another reason most men never experience this is because, due their Blue Pill conditioning, never give themselves permission to become the conventionally masculine men with a dominance that women need in order to feel this conversion for him. Most Blue Pill men have been taught a default deference to women. Theirs is one of a ‘Nice’, passive sensitivity to a woman’s perceived wants, rather than a dominant knowing of her need which is born from a lifetime of learning to place his mental point of origin on the whims of women.

This may be my own interpretation, but I would also argue that both a woman’s evolved psychological filtering (testing) of a man’s Hypergamous qualifications and her socialized sense of self (ego) contribute to a woman resisting this Deep Conversion for a man. As a lot of men in the Married Red Pill and DeadBedroom subredd forums will attest, it’s entirely possible to spend your life with a woman who will never feel this conversion with a man.

Deep Conversion

Done correctly deep conversion is the most satisfying experience possible between a man and a woman. So long as you keep the elements in place, it has no natural time limit. I had my ex-wife in this state for eight of the nine years we were together (losing it only when I lost my mojo) and I’ve had four girlfriends in the past two years in the same position. I’ve got a few more on the boil now. It’s really not very hard to do if you have the following core competencies in place:

  1. An unshakeably strong frame. You are special, you know you’re special, and your masculinity is stratospheric compared to the chumps around you.
  2. Cheerful misogyny. You love women but don’t take them seriously. This is more than just the attraction phase teasing. You genuinely believe women are more like dogs or children, meaning they are a delight when well-lead and a nightmare when left ill-disciplined without a pack leader. It’s empathetic but not weak or equalist.
  3. Direction. Your life must be a straight line in a Deida-esque manner. Whether it’s your music, philosophy, career, fitness your life contains several arrows pointing the same direction… towards building the archetype of a fully developed man. If you are one-dimensional the girl will hold back.
  4. Sexual mastery. Understand that women crave dominance above all else in the bedroom. Give her the kind of sex that penetrates her soul. This isn’t high-fitness sport sex and G-spot finding. Those men will keep a woman around as her sexual provider, the guy she goes to when she wants a good fucking, the bedroom equivalent of a qualifying beta chump. A sexual master rocks a girl psychologically so even a half-assed knee trembler in a public toilet has her dreaming for weeks afterwards. The girl dreams of pleasing him, not him pleasing her.

All four elements increase with age if you live your life correctly. I don’t want to write too much about it and certainly the book will never be released. Just be aware that it has it’s own ego traps, its own risks…. but it is possible. When you’re tired of the notch-carousel you might want to look into it.

Much of what Nick is outlining here is Red Pill 101 and I’d also add that Roissy’s original 16 Commandments of Poon would fill out this list more completely. What I’m exploring here, however, is the concept of how this Deep Conversion fits into the framework of men and women’s individualized concepts of love. On the one hand I have men who are critics tell me I’m in error because women’s opportunistic concept of love doesn’t meet their criteria for what love ought to be between a man and a woman – a mutually shared, unconsciously agreed upon, concept that aligns with men’s idealistic (love for love’s sake) concept.

Yet still, they don’t disagree with my assessment that women’s concept of love is rooted in optimizing their innate Hypergamy and manifests as an beneficent opportunism (beneficent in terms of quality control for the human race, not necessarily for men). This is where the conflict starts. If a male-idealistic concept of love is the correct one, and women lack a capacity to understand, appreciate or engage in that concept in a genuine, organic fashion then women entirely lack the capacity for love as men would define it. This is the deductive logic that tears men up when I explain men and women’s differing concepts of love. Their definition has to be the correct one, and if it is then women cannot love men. For guys reeling from the initial hopelessness that their Blue Pill world was always an exploitative fantasy, it’s hard for them to accept that their concept of love is only subjectively correct for them.

Blue Pill Idealism

Much of this hopelessness stems from the all-is-equal mentality that the Blue Pill sells us when we’re being raised by the ‘Village’ of pop-culture. Equalism is the religion of the Feminine Imperative, so Blue Pill men are conditioned to believe that men and women, being co-equal, co-rational agents, would necessarily share a common concept of love. As with everything egalitarian, that equalism outright denies any innate differences physically or psychologically that would separate men and women or make them adversarial in sexual strategy or purpose in life. This premise, of course, is deftly twisted by the Feminine Imperative to make feminine-primary sexual strategies and women’s concept of love, the socially correct expressions of ‘equalism’.

But therein lies men’s conflict. The same influences that convince men their idealistic concept of love is the mutually shared one are also the influences that convince men that satisfying women’s socio-sexual imperatives ought to be their life’s priority and their mental point of origin if they ever hope to achieve that idealized love state. Take this Blue Pill path to that idealistic state away from men, and you get very despondent guys who don’t believe women have a capacity to feel actual love for them. It all becomes jumping through hoops to create a feeling of love in women whose criteria for a love that originates in their opportunistic concept they must constantly qualify for.

Women critics of this differing love concepts dynamic, unsurprisingly, personalize every experience they have, their friends have or their family ever had by referring to examples of their own selfless acts of devotion to a certain man. It’s always a story about how they gave everything to a (often unappreciative, unreciprocating) man they felt some undying idealistic love for themselves, and how dare I impugn their sincerity in it?

And again, I’ll add that the only way they came to this idealistic love was through a Deep Conversion they had with a man who satisfied their Hypergamous opportunism long before they were ever inspired to those selfless acts of devotion and sacrifice. For every Alpha Widow woman who ever gave herself over to that conversion and surrendered her soul to a guy who never reciprocated it, there are a hundred Beta men who will never inspire that degree of devotion in the wives who settled on marrying them. Statistically, 80% of men (Betas) will never inspire the Deep Conversion that 10-20% of men women feel it for did.

The Red Pill Conversion

When I wrote The Love Experience I was asked to elaborate on a quote I’d made about men and women both having the capacity to love each other deeply and passionately:

“Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures.”

For men who innately cling to an idealistic concept of love, their own kind of Deep Conversion can come in the form of ONEitis and develop into some very unhealthy dependencies. One of the reasons ONEitis is so common among men is because their Blue Pill conditioning predisposes them to putting women’s needs above his own and they see that as the path to sustaining this True Love state – a state defined by their idealism.

For women, this Deep Conversion can only result from a man who so thoroughly satisfies her Hypergamous nature she’s willing to abandon her own sexual strategy. And, like the guy with ONEitis, she dedicates herself to the one guy she was able to (she thinks) lock down who was a better-than-deserved Hypergamous prospect. Women get very upset when this dedication is questioned (not unlike the ONEitis guy) because they’ve generally abandoned furthering their sexual strategy by investing their egos into a guy who satisfied their Hypergamous natures. To doubt that devotion is to doubt the wisdom of her investment – and that goes down to her evolved biology and psychology in that choice. I should note here that Alpha Widows are born from this conversion.

However, for all of that inherent risk, and despite men and women’s differing concepts of love, men and women can and do come together in individual states of love (that they often believe the other shares) that are ‘genuine’ to them and also last a lifetime. I would argue that this state cannot exist without a woman’s Deep Conversion occurring after, and as a process of, her testing and evaluating the quality of the man she feels it for. And I would also argue that a man who commits himself to this woman must also feel some sense of his idealistic concept of love being validated by that woman who has devoted herself to him.

Under the old social contracts, and under the old set of books, this conversion in men and women was likely something much easier than it is today. Women are distracted by social and cultural influences that distorts their ever truly understanding their greatly diminishing value to men, and at the same time places so many men so far below women in general that this conversion and devotion will always seem demeaning to them – even for men who exceed them in SMV.

However, this Deep Conversion state is not an impossibility and it is not impossible to sustain it in a Red Pill aware paradigm. In fact, I’ll say that Red Pill awareness and internalized Game is really the only way to sustain it in an era of Open Hypergamy where Blue Pill conditioning of men is the norm, and women’s expectations of men are ridiculously low, but standards are ridiculously exaggerated.

For the Red Pill / Game aware guy, understanding this conversion and how to inspire it is something he ought to contemplate since so much of a woman’s ego becomes invested in her devotion to him once that conversion takes place. Conversely, Red Pill men should also understand, as Nick explained about his ex-wife, that this conversion is always tentative upon his own capacity to perpetuate it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

624 comments on “Deep Conversion

  1. h a b d
    and also this tracks with athol’s MAP idea of shifting SMV value differentials… there just seems to be another ‘something’ in play… i just can’t quite place it yet…

    Men are the true romantics. We write stories in our heads that nobody actually lives up to. Probably most men have at one time or another believed stuff about a woman that was just all in their head. That could be part of it. Sorry if that takes some of the fun out of it for anyone. It shouldn’t, really. Understanding the digestive system doesn’t make a good steak accompanied by an aged Rhone any less of a fine experience, right?

    There’s utility, real utility, to deep attraction.
    Again, I can tell an evo-psyche Just So story from the good old days 15,000 years ago when a woman literally was in “ride or die” mode; that extreme loyalty would keep her and at least some of her children alive long enough for them to become independent, and pass down those genes. Possibly the same combination of dopamine etc. than when shut down enabled that same woman to monkey branch to another man, maybe as a War Bride.

    Over the years various people have attempted to sell Rilly Deep experiences to me, I have a fair amount of skepticism. “Deep Convergence” (Soon on Netflix!) that’s more than deep attraction, but some kind of speshul sekret mystical experience that only the annointed, speshul-knowledge-equipped can have reminds me of other cult leader wannabes, in other parts of space and time. My BS detector beeps pretty loud.

    Occam’s razor is very sharp.

  2. does Stockholm Syndrome have an expiry date?…

    Of course, once the kidnappers show weakness, they may lose their alpha status.

    Even Charlie Manson lost status with some of his followers once he was captured.

  3. Sentient
    You already are..

    Yeah, whatever. Look, your analysis of FR’s is always interesting to read because you have a large knowledge base and as a salesman keen powers of observation. I always learn from them. But you are just too short for some rides.

  4. kfg
    publik skoolz
    The bad news is that about 75% of them will be so badly mentally damaged that they will be beyond recovery without the full V for Vendetta self-identity destruction program.

    Maybe. In Communist East Germany the control over people was total, until it wasn’t. Preference cascade was swifter than probably anyone inside the STASI ever expected. Same thing happened in Communist Romania. Reality can be a real shock to the system.

  5. @ ROLLO Got a question ? Sam botta make me think why don’t red pill writers play the game ? The book writers make the books that turn into movies from Hollywood that shape the cultures and government and law follows culture. My daughters have read them all twilight saga , hunger games , 5th wave and a lot more. Those books all turn into movies and shape the culture that we live in. Why don’t red pill writers make novels for the masculine side of things. To start to shape culture back to male positive effect. Dude you got smart successful guys on here that know stuff. Scribblerg and sentient and nova seeker. Anonymous reader and SJF. And like a ton more that I can’t name off the top of my head ! But they smart and could write some books and start a change in society. It might take 40 years but the book writers shape the culture. Why are there no books that are for male youth ? You had a post on this story teller I think it was. Hollywood and disiny and all that are pretty much brain dead they just steal or borrow from real brains I mean look what they are doing to Star Wars. I’m just saying because of the FI or modern culture or whatever you call it the west is failing and falling. Rome did not fall In a moment it took centuries. Their is time to make a difference. ROLLO I know why you do what you do and yes you save one here and over there. The AFC and the fucked up confused white knight. Yes awesome but I’m talking about a whole culture that needs to change

  6. “Why are there no books that are for male youth ?”

    One of the reasons I do not write such books is because there are already mountains of them, better written than I could manage.

    Why don’t young men simply read them?

    John Carter, Conan and Tarzan are available instantly and for free on any “device.” Everything ever written by Jack London, Joseph Conrad, Rudyard Kipling. Most of Raphael Sabatini. Instantly. Free.

  7. Rollo,

    Amazing article, thank you for expanding on this!!!

    I had a question on some of the verbiage above. Would the following:
    “Theirs is one of a ‘Nice’, passive sensitivity to a woman’s perceived wants, rather than a dominant knowing of her need which is born from a lifetime of learning to place his mental point of origin on the whims of women.”

    Actually read:
    “Theirs is one of a ‘Nice’, passive sensitivity to a woman’s perceived wants, which is born from a lifetime of learning to place his mental point of origin on the whims of women, rather than a dominant knowing of her need.”

    Also, possibly the following:
    “Statistically, 80% of men (Betas) will never inspire the Deep Conversion that 10-20% of men women feel it for did.”

    Actually read:
    “Statistically, 80% of men (Betas) will never inspire the Deep Conversion that 10-20% of men women feel it did.”

    I think you’re policy is once it’s put out for print, you don’t modify it. Just wanted to check in on the above as it’s a challenge to make sense of the concepts the way they’re worded.

    Your work = priceless!

  8. @ Sentient

    re: music

    My best ones have been from Rush (e.g., Spirit of Radio), Tool (46 and 2), and Led Zepplin (Immigrant Song).

    This one’s out of the mold, although it really captures the playa vibe:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ks9GS26Ng
    Caviar – Tangerine Speedo

    Some U2 songs have a big frisson hit, too. Discotheque is a big one for me.

  9. @Sentient

    Regarding the dopamine music thing.

    I have always been able to subscribe to enhancing dopamine when appropriate in different context via curating music. I.e, personal Djing and have always had a stash of free music content.

    I didn’t have time to check out your links, but how do you actually define this music in more detail, is it scientific or personal? Is it contextual? Is it different when personal for psyching you up versus entertaining a crowd? Campfire, tailgate party, backyard barbecue. One on one with a girl/wife?

    I get the personal, is there a difference for being a DJ for social?

    And do you have a list for personal or social songlist?

    Rather than just “sounds good”, amp the emotions seems to be what you are ordering.

    Take for example “Last Dance for Mary Jane” by Bob Petty seems to be the right style of getting in psyche.

    Take for example Train’s discography. Half is red pill, half is blue pill. I think the guy (Patrick Monahan) had it both ways. Early on Free, I Am, and Meet Virginia–red pill. I’d listen to that shit driving out to deer hunt.

    Soul Sister and beyond– blue pill as all get out. But that’s what I’d request, actually at a social event of couples at the country club.

    My questions are actually more aligned with pumping dopamine and music song style. Purpose for what type of Game is more specific.

    So address all issues or not. Playlists or not.

  10. SJF

    Rather than just “sounds good”, amp the emotions seems to be what you are ordering.

    Yes… raw primal emotion, not fun happy get your feat moving emotion… intensity. When you have the right song you can feel the chemical secretions… It is more than the “frisson” effect, that is what the studies focus on because it is a more easily observable phenomenon… but what I am talking about you can feel more in your gut and limbic system. again you know you have it when you feel like you want to punch someone or bend her over… Intensity

    Like this

    http://superhypeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/JimMorrison.jpg

    So for example at a house party this song here is reliable to get everyone no matter what age grooving along and moving…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw5Gl28Xe5o

    But lacks the same impact to dilate your eyes… at least for me. For me the common elements of the music that have this effect are a sustained high note on guitar or synch, metronomic drums, driving bass lines and building to a crescendo… and then just play that over and over on a loop.

    Some more science here…

    http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v14/n2/fig_tab/nn.2726_ft.html

  11. @Sentient

    HABD

    Explain your views on the “Alpha Widow” phenomenon… would be interesting.

    why do you put girls on the emotional rollercoaster?…(rhetorical…)

    my basic understanding is that the limbic system is the source of emotions… it is an encoded data-base that uses emotions as problem-solving subroutines (among other things)… the ‘alpha stud response’ emotion (“let’s go meet hot guys!…”…lol) in girls is wired in to that data-base to solve a problem… that’s why ‘attraction is not a choice’…

    her problem = find superior genetic material for her future offspring…

    her solution = use her limbic system (emotions) to ‘find’ superior alpha stud genetics… by interacting with guys until all of her switches are flipped (or at least ‘enough’ are flipped given her current situ… of say, the last day of her fertility cycle and the only guy around is BB husband/bf… and her hindbrain doesn’t see any other options…)

    when all of those emotions line up/are flipped = success! = found that ‘alpha stud’ (best genetics available to her in the moment)… the only thing left to figure out is who cleans up the mess on the sheets…lol…

    issue = the limbic system is subject to ‘burn in’ (like adrenal fatigue… as an example)… so toooo much ‘success’ (find that one super alpha guy that trips all her switches…) will affect that ‘find superior genetic material’ subroutine with an ‘echo’ (for lack of a better term)… which will activate when that subroutine activates…

    (note – theoretically, this effect should also be ‘disbursable’ across many guys (even without that one alpha stud experience), which would just leave her subroutine ‘burned out’ as opposed to ‘burned in’ on the one guy… = carousel rider/slut…)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_and_memory

    high arousal and high valence (valence = intensity of emotional response) swings = imprint on limbic system… (positive to negative = rollercoaster = high amplitude = large delta on intensity of emotional swings… which happens when she can push on your oak tree with impunity…lol… and happens with even MORE intensity when you push back on her to increase her emotional response… = push her higher… push her lower… just like with a swing set…lol… just like a natural that really likes the drama…lol)

    the next time she accesses that subroutine (for arousal…or whatever other reason… could just be a triggered ‘memory’…) that echo is sort of burned in… and unless that next guy can bring more heat…

    = alpha widow…

    as long as that alpha stud is not around to ‘unburn in’ that subroutine… (get betaized or be killed by a rival in a war brides situ… in which case the new guy would be the ‘alpha’ by definition…lol)

    throw in some chemical (pair bonding) interaction with the alpha stud’s semen cocktail to lock in the ‘imprint’ personal to him… and it’s a done deal…

    aaand, with THAT analysis, i think i’m back to ‘deep conversion’ is all based on attraction/arousal… plus ‘hot sex’ as the ‘missing component’…lol…

    Point of View based on experience is not wrong…

    that is true… the experiences are not ‘wrong’… but the interpretation of causality by the player (lol) might be less than accurate…

    that’s why ALL experiences need to be accounted for (OMGs, YSGs, OSGs, YMGs, MGTOWs, LJBF-zonedGs (lol)… BP guys… RP guys…(even Blaximus’s experience…lol… which some people seem to discount as ‘unrepeatable’…) = EVERYBODY’s experience… bc if you don’t do that your new theory is just wishful thinking…lol)…

    then do your analysis…

    and it helps to use occum’s razor like a hyperactive sweeney todd on a meth bender…lol…

    if your new theory can now explain (make predictions in any situ) ALL things that it is supposed to be able to predict… then it’s solid enough to use/put pressure on… if not… then not…lol… and back to a new theory formulation…

    that’s why i’m MORE than willing to revise my opinion on how shit works…lol… but also why i’m also willing to push back when i believe i’m correct in my analysis…

    and why i backed off on my certainty of ‘attraction/arousal with high male SMV ratio alone’ = deep conversion… bc there does seem to be something else in play in addition to that… but maybe not…lol… and i think i figured it out above… but that hasn’t solidified for me yet…

    may take one some time to appreciate it though…

    nope, i appreciate that shit right the f*k NOW!… lol… that’s just how my brain is wired… it’s baked in to my firmware…lol…

    i have 3 settings for ‘analysis –> conclusions’ –

    (which have actually gotten much more stream-lined/solid since i got RPed…lol… bc i can see through the FI bs… it actually makes analysis easier/more straight-forward…and i can REALLY see the BP bias in ‘scientific’ analysis now… it was just sort of ‘off’ before, but now i know why…)

    1) that makes sense/works/’just fits’ into my universal mental model AND i can completely explain it… (at least to my own satisfaction…which is a pretty high standard…or at least i like to think it is… lol)

    2) that sort of makes sense, but i can’t completely explain it and it doesn’t ‘just fit’ (which is where ‘deep conversion’ still is right now…lol)

    and

    3) ‘that’s just stupid!…lol’ (note – the ‘lol’ is included in the category description…lol) (where something is really nowhere close to reality (RP)… and i’m hyper sensitive about this shit… now that i went through that ‘the FI is trying to f*k with me again’ phase…)

    that’s it… no value judgments… just ‘does it work this way… or not?…’

    high trust is part of it…

    i don’t know that high trust is part of the causality chain up stream… or if it’s down stream (as a result of the deep conversion already being in place…) or chicken/egg…

    good luck!

  12. @AR

    Music link is interesting, I followed down to the original paper. The personality link of “open to new experiences” correlating with “music shivers” makes sense to me. I know lots of men use tunes to get in state / stay in state, and that’s good as long as we are working to not need that particular crutch.

    any other thoughts come to mind? i don’t want to pollute your response with a hint…

    good luck!

  13. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HTAl7cevL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Flashman – the anti-hero role model… life has many twists and turns… whose rules do YOU follow son?

    Flashman’s expulsion from Rugby for drunkenness leads him to join the British Army in what he hopes will be a sinecure. He joins the 11th Regiment of Light Dragoons commanded by Lord Cardigan, to whom he toadies in his best style. After an affair with a fellow-officer’s lover, he is challenged to a duel but wins after promising a large sum of money to the pistol loader, to give his opponent a blank load in his gun. He does not kill his opponent but instead delopes and accidentally shoots the top off a bottle thirty yards away, an action that gives him instant fame and the respect of the Duke of Wellington. Once the reason for fighting emerges, the army stations Flashman in Scotland. He is quartered with the Morrison family and soon enough takes advantage of one of the daughters, Elspeth. After a forced marriage, Flashman is required to resign the Hussars due to marrying below his station. He is given another option, to make his reputation in India.

    By showing off his language and riding skills in India, Flashman is assigned to the staff of General Elphinstone, who is to command the garrison at the worst frontier of the British Empire at that time, Afghanistan. Upon arrival, he meets a soldier who relates the narrow escape he made in November 1842, on the first night of the Afghan Uprising. After Akbar Khan proclaims a general revolt which the citizens of Kabul immediately heed, a mob storms the house of Sir Alexander Burnes, one of the senior British political officers and murders him and his staff. The soldier, stationed nearby, manages to flee in midst of the confusion. This tale sets the tone for Flashman’s proceeding adventures, including the retreat from Kabul, Last Stand at the Battle of Gandamak and the Siege of Jalalabad, in the First Anglo-Afghan War. Despite being captured, tortured and escaping death numerous times, hiding and shirking his duty as much as possible, he comes through it with a hero’s reputation … although his triumph is tempered when he realises his wife might have been unfaithful while he was away.

  14. @AR

    can i ask a favor?… can you just use ‘habd’ or ‘having a bad day’ instead of ‘h a b d’?… that way i only have to ctrl ‘f’ 2 things instead of 3 when i’m pressed for time… if not, it’s cool, i just might miss something…

    thanks.

    good luck!

  15. I’ve experienced that ‘music frission’ countless times, but never paid much attention to it. Happens with books and movies too with really poignant, heartfelt or inspiring moments.

    Interesting concept, sentient, harnessing that feeling and riding that wave when out, I’m definitely gonna give that a try.

    When you first mentioned it yesterday, I picked a few songs that I knew would probably trigger it, and they did. But after doing it a few times, I could trigger it (at least the shiver and goosebumps) on command. I don’t think it was the full effect you were describing though, like it was missing the adrenal response. I think letting the music trigger it more subconsciously will help with that.

    Re: deep conversion

    I’m of the belief that it IS just a state of attraction (massive though it is). And that this “Deep Conversion” or ride-or-die is a combination of attraction + time. Bonnie didn’t rob a bank with Clyde on their first date.

    I also think that there is no Alpha Widow without “De ep Conversion”. Or maybe Not All Alpha Widows Are Like That lol…there’s a difference between the girl who had the best sex of her life with an Alpha Trump Supporter ONS:

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/11/08/this-woman-accidentally-banged-a-trump-supporter-and-her-post-cock-rationalizations-will-blow-your-mind/ (borderline clickbait headline lol)

    but then eventually settles down with a stable beta, and an actual widow who never remarries because: “nothing compares to YOUUUU” lol

    As Gladys Knight so eloquently said:
    “I’d rather live in his world
    Than live without him in mine.”

  16. @YaReally

    “aaand, doing it properly = you NEED to pump the alpha BEHAVIORS to get massive attraction FIRST… and then dial that attraction back by sliding in some beta BEHAVIORS

    I was at a meetup tonite and was teasing a girl and she started smiling big and was getting into me…it was all “nonsexual” and involved brief touch…something about it seemed to have a sexual tinge, tho. Maybe it was the teasing kino. There is very little kino in the group, so even the little I provided may have been on the alpha slider.

    I recognize that I’m very weak on bonding behaviors…that is the weak part of my game…I don’t like to show my feelings or give deep hugs…probably an autism thing for me to overcome…I do it with women I trust….

    I broke down tonight and stayed after the meetup so that a woman wouldn’t have to eat alone…she arrived late. So, I provided a LITTLE comfort.

    Thanks for putting your thoughts out there…if I look at my basic pickup game post, there’s both alpha and beta behaviors in it. I just didn’t know that that’s what they were…my game was developed from experience and calibration.

  17. @Culum @pua

    Yes, dude. India which is in Asia . Because the Diwali which is celebrated for 3 days continuously clashed with the Halloween weekend, and since India is a Hindu country, Diwali gets more preference and people use that long holiday to stay with the family and visit family.

    Never considered that point, I will have to somehow convey that man-woman frame in online text (may be tell them they are cute) and set the frame, even if I get rejection. But if she takes the bait, the game is ON when the date happens. Thanks for helping there.

    I stay alone in a home. Have my own vehicle though it is a bike. Have the Uber installed and wallet loaded. All the logistics is sorted out.

    The problem is ONS is rarity here in India. If I get a # and the interaction is smooth and do the comfort stage of MM in isolation with only the girl and me(you don’t even have to kiss then and there), that is far more effective and a realistic agenda. Also the one I am working now.
    All the logistics can only help me once I get there. Not yet but I am putting the effort here and there.

    I problem is since I was doing Day game, I took that mindset in Night Game. The day game is very short hardly 10-15 minutes if there is no Instadate. SO there is no reason to bring up the “what area you doing next” unless you figure out the A2(female to male interest)- A3(she is qualifying and I did the qualification) of MM has already happened.
    Now that I have been going out night time, I realize that there is nothing to talk of and can be just be more lenient of the convo topics and shoot the shit just when you don’t get anything in your head to talk about.
    I am more comfortable in the last month about this issue since I am opening at night veneus and being consciously aware of convo topics people talk about.

    Regarding day game , it is more about me being Sexual and expressing my sexuality to the girl I am talking and being comfortable with it since , I was totally asexual whole my life.
    I remember reading a scray FR where girls were asking him if he was gay and he is like WTF. Exact same thing happened in my college days since I had too much SMV for a college dude at that age but because of Madonna/Whore complex YaReally has beautifully mentioned( and having deeper intellectual interest that fascinated that silly girls ), would never think of the girls I saw in real life as sexual human beings to think of hitting on them and reserved the sperm for the dirty whores you see on the internet lol.

    I am guessing at nights it is easier to be more sexual than day time. The sun and the other brightness around is a state breaker unconsciously to develop the sexual vibe explicitly. Working on it.

  18. @yareally @culum @hank @scray @PUA

    The girl who # closed me FR.

    PARTY VENUE

    I go the regular place I go to. Open a lone girl sitting there. Didn’t dance proper since the song had already started previously and it was mid-song.

    Then the next time I go near her, she asks me to take a video of her dance she is dancing with a friend. I told her to give me her phone and she is like do it in your phone.

    Suddenly I realized the girl was trying to # close with me.

    Went with flow. At the end, she took my phone and entered her number lol

    Once I realized it was ON. I went and sat next to her with no space it between and touching each others legs. She is comfortable with it. Because the noise is loud, I am speaking into her ears again whispering into her ear. She is okay with it.

    I was asking really boring things and she was doing the same but then I realized it is all subcomms that matter as YaReally says. Here it was were flirting beneath the surface by touching each other all the time.

    Later I disappeared into the crowd.

    I was at the bar ordering drinks. She then on the pretext of wanting to drink water , came and stood next to me and I reopened her. We are again standing close to close leaning against the bar facing the crowd and dancefloor.

    The body language between us was so good that a guy came to ask for a dance, hesitanted and then went away. We were still talking the boring shit.

    At the end of the night, I noticed she had come along and I told to join me and a friend for an afterparty in a nearby club where dancing still continues late into the night.

    She agreed and I was mentally high-fiving myself.

    LESSONS:
    1.I was totally dominant when asking her to bounce with us.

    2.I took all the cues she was giving and acted on it. Just an year back, I would have missed all those signals. Starting for her asking to take video till coming and standing next to me.

    3. In the club we bounced to, the group from previous club were already there . I had befriended them so I took her and joined that group. BIG MISTAKE. Should have lead her somewhere else where only we two would have danced very closely..

    4. Once in the group, other guys start AMOGGing and dancing with her face to face and actively blocked me out by pushing me to the outer part of the circle. But I noticed that she once came near me and we started dancing side by side.

    5. I have the number, I teased her. Even she is loling for all the jokes I am cracking. I pushed for a meetup and she has agreed to meet. Have to see. What might happen.

    6. This is a rare instance where the girl is alone and should depend on more # from these type of girls.

  19. @SJF
    “I’m still not buying it’s all the same, just different size pizza.”

    You don’t have to. You don’t have to believe in gravity either lol

    “I mean that was great what Julien did to the Doctor girl. And it made for a great story. But the switches he was flipping were just for a few bites of pizza. (cock-roaches or not).”

    Extrapolate and use common sense. All this long term shit is the same as short term shit. You’re only dividing it because you insist on trying to separate “LTR Game” from “Pickup Game” so you can have a seat at the table and feel like you bring some special expertise and wisdom on this special unique game that’s “different”. It’s all the same pizza lol MMSL is LITERALLY a plan that forces guys into flipping the Attraction switches (not the “SHORT TERM” attraction switches lol there’s just “attraction switches”, it’s all the same shit).

    “it is entirely different for a man to get a woman to abandon her long term sexual strategy”

    Hypergamy doesn’t care. If you stop triggering her Hypergamy and some other guy triggers it and her hindbrain thinks she has a realistic shot at getting him, she will bail/cheat.

    If what he’s doing made women “abandon their long-term sexual strategy” then he could quit his job and lay on the couch being a piece of shit begging for sex and have zero ambition or passion or charisma and she would turn down Chad Thundercock for him.

    She wouldn’t do that, we all know that, so they aren’t “abandoning” fuck all. It’s bullshit that muddies the water and confuses newbies who WANT to believe they can find a loophole around Hypergamy so they can unshoulder the burden of performance, which fucks them over.

    You guys are literally suggesting that HYPERGAMY CAN BE BEATEN. This is fucking retarded lol Your own wife didn’t suck your dick when you weren’t triggering her Hypergamy. Now you’re actively triggering it so she’s attracted. YOU CAN’T BEAT HYPERGAMY. Attraction is not a choice. Where the fuck am I right now lol

    “Wouldn’t the external method of Julien flipping her switches work differently for a pLTR?”

    MMSL = exactly what Julien is doing. Giving her a rollercoaster of emotions, making her feel dread, making her feel like you have preselection, etc etc It’s all the same pizza.

    “But what is actually wrong with it as a goal? I can see PUA’s dissing the nomenclature. But having it as a goal in a relationship?”

    It’s mainly the name that’s misleading. And the fact that he (Krauser) doesn’t understand that this is just SEDUCTION. This has been the goal from day 1 lol There’s nothing new here, but it’s taking something that’s not new and relabelling it with a misleading label for newbies. It’s achieved the exact same way you achieve normal attraction and it’s subject to the exact same pitfalls that normal attraction is, so why name it something else? It’s just muddying the waters for newbies.

    @Rollo
    “So we don’t like the term “conversion”? Sounds too permanent and we can’t have noobs thinking they have anything like ‘set it and forget it’?”

    This. Take some Blue Pill newbies out into the field and tell them they can convert women then watch what happens when they get into an LTR and think they can “set it and forget it” because she’s “converted”.

    “Fine, what registered trademark does Owen or Mystery have that Krauser is infringing on that means the same thing, maybe we can call it that?”

    It’s called “SEDUCTION” lol This is the RESULT of properly seducing a woman, this is what MM was made to accomplish. What he’s describing is what seduction is SUPPOSED to be.

    “I thought he was pretty clear about the fact that this conversion, or shift in emotional investment, or point of selfless devotion, wasn’t a permanent feature.”

    Then “conversion” is a bad name for it. He’s literally just occasionally accidentally discovered that he can pull off proper seduction here and there and, because he normally DOESN’T, it’s blowing his mind to where he has to give a name to it and make it into some mystical shit because to HIM it’s rare. Like before I learned how to do laser eye-contact I thought you just randomly magically connect with girls sometimes and have that sexual tension, but no, it turns out I was just by fluke happening to do laser eye-contact and now that I know how to consciously do it, I can do it with most girls whenever I want to…I didn’t create something new, I’m not going to label it Eye-Magic, it’s just what I was SUPPOSED to be doing from Day 1 but didn’t learn properly so I wasn’t getting the effect that I get when I do it right.

    This is like someone knocking over the high-jump pole 80% of the time but 20% of the time he sails right over it and goes:

    “man, THIS is special, I need a new name for doing this”

    “uh bro it’s called the high-jump”

    “no man, you don’t understand, this is DIFFERENT, this isn’t like when I knock the pole down and because I knock the pole down and I’m too full of myself to allow the idea that other people might have better game than me or know something I don’t know (meaning Krauser, not Rollo), I assume everyone else must be knocking the pole down like me so this must be different to all of YOU too.”

    “well you’re not SUPPOSED to knock the pole down, like what MM teaches is how to high-jump OVER the pole”

    “look man, you don’t understand, you don’t make it over the pole okay? Only us SUPER-PUAs and OMGs make it over the pole. It was hard for me to do so it’s IMPOSSIBLE that you guys could do it.”

    “we get over the pole all the time, that’s LITERALLY what MM was teaching us to DO. That’s what the high-jump IS.”

    “well what trademark copyright should I use to describe this phenomenon then??”

    “…HIGH-JUMP!!! wtf??”

    lol

    @walawala @Rollo
    “I had a girl I was banging who was completely loyal to me…AT THAT TIME…I would have thought it was “Deep conversion”….I still hesitated treating her as a plate. She banged a friend of mine because…..hypergamy.”

    This is why it’s stupid lol This is just SEDUCTION. Calling it “conversion” or thinking it’s “different” is dumb…it’s just MORE ATTRACTION lol It’s like “deep comfort” VS “REALLY deep comfort”. They’re the same pizza, there’s no reason to call REALLY deep comfort zomething different, it’s the same as comfort but just MORE of it.

    If this short-circuited Hypergamy, then hey, cool, we’ve discovered something new. But it doesn’t. It’s literally just PROPER SEDUCTION.

    Again this brings me back to how many people have ACTUALLY read/watched Mystery Method and actually GET that he was figuring out how to make girls fall in LOVE with him, not just touch his dick. Even Julien’s “give her a rollercoaster of emotions” stuff in that video is an extrapolation of Mystery Method to give it more immediate impact (to compete with the stimulus girls have in 2016). It’s all the same pizza.

    Like I say: wtf do you guys think we’re DOING out there? Wtf do you think Mystery Method is FOR?

    “I like the concept, but I see “deep conversion” still as unicorn thinking….it’s more fantasy than reality.”

    Yup. Because it IS. lol

    The OMGs think “oh these guys have never experienced DEEP Conversion, they’ve only had LOTS OF ATTRACTION” because they don’t go properly DO this shit and they don’t SEE that yes, we CAN get this shit, it’s what Mystery Method is FOR. Guys who just want a casual thing like myself LEAVE OUT parts of Mystery Method because we don’t WANT the girl to hit “DEEP “”CONVERSION”””(TM)(TM) because it’s annoying to us and our lifestyle lol We are actively NOT doing parts of what we’re SUPPOSED to do, to get the type of relationships we want, but what we learned how to do is GET this “Deep Conversion”, that was the whoel POINT of Mystery Method. That’s why MM even HAS C1-C3 and why Mystery spends hours in that shit instead of the brief 30 seconds I’ll spend in it.

    This is guys who don’t know what seduction is supposed to look like, thinking they’ve discovered something new lol It’s just ALL of the pieces of the puzzle in the right place. It’s exactly the same thing the OMGs have managed to do, except they did it by fluke while we have it all laid out in MM, Julien, etc step by step.

    Like this nonsense from Blaximus:

    “Problem is, for men that haven’t experienced this, it is inconceivable. Hard to grasp. Impossible to execute.”

    Guess what, we HAVE experienced this shit, it’s NOT inconceivable, it’s NOT hard to grasp, it’s NOT hard to execute. What if instead of looking down on us condescendingly so you can brag about what a boss you are, you stopped to consider for just a second that MAYBE what you did wasn’t THAT special and maybe it isn’t THAT hard to achieve and maybe, just maybe, it’s been codified into a system and all the wizardry taken out of it.

    Exactly like any other part of pickup. “Oh you can’t make girls CHASE you, I did it but I’m super special, you don’t really know what it’s like to experience it, it’s inconceivable, hard to grasp, impossible to execute”

    http://giffiles.alphacoders.com/261/261.gif

    Guess what you just DHV then devalidate them, here are routines A B and C to achieve that. OH SHIT I TOOK ALL THE MAGIC OUT OF IT, NOW YOU’RE NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE. lol

    This is the EXACT same argument that feminists give over pickup in GENERAL. “Noooo you can’t predict LOVE!! You can’t just make it HAPPEN like that!! It’s SPECIAL and MAGICAL and DIFFERENT!!” No, it’s the same shit, we broke it down and codified it, we pulled apart the corpse and labelled every part of it. You might not want to watch the surgery channel and you might get an icky feeling thinking humans are just a bunch of organs running on electric impulses (or whatever) instead of magic beings governed by souls given to them by some higher entity.

    That’s why MM was such a mind-fuck for everyone. He pulled back the curtain on all of this and said “here are the steps to replicate this consistently if you want to”.

    This is why it’s so hard to talk about PUA topics like this with guys who aren’t going out and regularly executing this shit. They have no frame of reference for what we’re doing or experiencing.

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Ok, so now we have Deep Conversion. Does this mean someone’s gonna come up with Shallow Conversion and Medium Conversion, and then some other AMOG will decide that his relationship is Ultra-Deep Conversion with a Deida cherry on top?”

    Fucking THIS lol

    “Looks like attraction. Deep attraction or not, attraction. Or if you want to, call it commitment. But for crying out loud, do we have to keep on creating new assumptions / terms /etc.?”

    THIS. This is just muddying the waters for newbies.

    @hank holiday
    “A likely story. Who did you pick. Juan the mexican bodybuilder or Dominic the artiste?”
    “I don’t follow.”
    “Lol. Which dude from tinder did you pick for tonight? The bodybuilder or the artist?”

    This is why I’m not into text game much anymore. That’s something I would have said back in 2010 and it would have slayed. But now I find they assume the worst possible meaning as a fast-track to rule guys out because they have so many options. So I try not to get cutesy and game like this over txt, I just try to get them on the phone instead where she can hear my tonality etc These days that girl is just as likely to think “OMG THIS GUY IS JEALOUS AND OBSESSIVE” lol

    @Blaximus
    “Q: what is your perception of the goals of RP awareness vs PUA? Must the 2 always match up 100%? Are the goals of both exactly the same?”

    It’s all about codifying the truth.

    “Do a majority of readers here want RP knowledge in order to achieve the short term goal of pussy, or are you looking for ” something else ” ???”

    THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT JEZEBEL WRITES. WHERE AM I?? What happened to this place?? lolol “Oh you don’t want that red pill stuff, that’s just to get laid by drunk bar sluts, if you want a REAL DEEP connection that’s DIFFERENT, it’s MYSTICAL and MAGICAL” No it’s the same shit, just “more” of it lol That’s WHY MMSL recovers marriages. MMSL is making guys do that “achieving the short term goal of pussy” thing on their LTRs and HOLY SHIT it works, because it’s all the same thing lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Seems to me that “conversion” should be something that’s one and done, and it doesn’t revert backwards. Not “requires daily maintaining”, and “could revert to previous state at any given moemnet”, but that’s probably just my own perspective.”

    This.

    “It’s late where I am and I may have misread, but frankly the OP was all full of “Deep Conversion” (said in a Deep, manly Voice) as a True Thing and a Fine Thing and an Intense Thing then at the end, oh, yeah, by the way, hehe, it lasted for a while then fizzledout…. Looked to me like the whole nonpermanence was mentioned purely as an afterthought. ”

    This. ’cause Krauser doesn’t really fully understand seduction and that post is the same as the RVF thinking they’re going to find some EE unicorn where they can let down the burden of performance. All Krauser had in his post is PROPER ATTRACTION/SEDUCTION, which is why it WENT AWAY lol And it blew his mind to get it because he doesn’t get it much because his game style has very low emotional impact and he refuses to tweak it at all or listen to anyone who points out blind spots.

    If he was running game with more emotional impact (not higher energy, more DEEP EMOTIONAL IMPACT, like hitting her at her core like he’s supposed to (picture aiming for the punching bag VS aiming THROUGH the punching bag)) he would be getting that more often.

    Krauser has written/video’ed some GREAT stuff. But he’s still LEARNING.

    “Given the tendency of BP men to oneitis, that’s really not helpful. IMO far better to state up front “This is a state of mind that WILL NOT LAST without work and MAY NOT LAST even with work”. Of course, that would not produce nearly the same goodfeelze in the average reader, plus it would reduce Deep Conversion to simply another facet of the diamond that is “attraction”, and then there would not be any special New Term to argue about. Instead we’d just have to limp along with the same old same old talking past each other arguments.”

    Fucking this. lol This is more about Krauser than Rollo, I think Rollo’s intentions were 100% for the best. But that doesn’t change that bad information is bad information.

    “Lately comments have reminded me of sitting around with bored pistol shooters.”

    This is why on PUA boards we all go out and post Field Reports. Because when you have a group of guys who aren’t actively pushing the boundaries out there, getting together to theorize, it becomes exactly what the RVF used to lol at this place for: a bunch of dudes who don’t go out circle-jerking and mentally masturbating theory. If guys were all going out and regularly trying to stick their dick in <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 there wouldn't be all this posturing for "This is my Patented XYZ Game that's only for super secret special guys like me, you all don't understand what I'M doing, I look down my nose at you" nonsense, muddying the water for the sake of everyone getting a winner ribbon so everyone feels special.

    And that's fine if that's what people want, a community can be anything, but Rollo's writing carries massive clout now and NOT having correct info (or easily misinterpreted by newbies info) is GOING to send newbies down wrong paths, put bad mindsets in them, give them misinformation, and in the end we're going to have more and more men getting burned and blindsided when they SHOULD'VE been getting proper information that would help them avoid that, even if it meant that nobody is special and Attraction just boils down to a handful of elements that have already been solved and codified.

  20. “The OMGs think “oh these guys have never experienced DEEP Conversion, they’ve only had LOTS OF ATTRACTION” because they don’t go properly DO this shit and they don’t SEE that yes, we CAN get this shit, it’s what Mystery Method is FOR.”

    @YaReally

    I don’t know how anyone could have read your archive and think you have never experienced “Deep Conversion.” All this “Love” talk is just fucking disgusting. smh. Here’s a sweet maxim kfg style.

    “People would never fall in love if they hadn’t heard love talked about.”

  21. ““People would never fall in love if they hadn’t heard love talked about.”

    How absurd.
    I’m more surprised that people DO fall in love in spite of the fact that they’ve heard it talked about.
    “Love” as the noun is described today, is an impossible and unrealistic standard. Yet even so people do fall in love. And if they haven’t drank from the status quo koolaid pool, they can even stay in love.

  22. “You don’t have to believe in gravity either”

    Unless you’ve been reading Wheeler between sets gravity probably doesn’t work the way you think it does. Neither does time or space. We don’t teach newbs tensor geometry because it would only confuse them pointlessly, but we don’t fail to teach advanced students how shit really works just because it would confuse the newbs.

    “man, THIS is special, I need a new name for doing this . . . “uh bro it’s called the high-jump””

    No, it’s called the Fosbury Flop, because Fosbury demonstrated that it was superior to just jumping high. They gave him a medal for it and everything.

    In skating there is the Solchow Jump.

    In cycling there is the Obree Egg. This one actually caused the very rules of the game to be changed, just because it had come into existence. So Obree invented the Superman, and they changed the rules of the game again, only retroactively this time, so cycling isn’t even just cycling any more.

    “People would never fall in love if they hadn’t heard love talked about.”

    If there were no chairs, there wouldn’t be the word “chair.”

  23. HABD

    and why i backed off on my certainty of ‘attraction/arousal with high male SMV ratio alone’ = deep conversion… bc there does seem to be something else in play in addition to that… but maybe not…lol… and i think i figured it out above… but that hasn’t solidified for me yet…

    Yeah your explanation is to me still not accounting for latency, decay and re-uptake of the back in the frame after 20 years Alpha…

    If it is just, as Yareally keeps bleating on about, the constant treadmill like repetition of hypergamous triggering in real time… you would have no Alpha Widows, spanning decades long absences… you would have to retrigger attraction by all the switch flipping scale sliding actions… and anyone who has ever had and old GF who still longs for them knows, you can just start right where things left off… there is what you call “burn in” and what Krauser terms Deep Conversion and what others say are Alpha Widows…

  24. “… there is what you call “burn in” and what Krauser terms Deep Conversion and what others say are Alpha Widows…”

    If the matter is dense enough and you get sufficiently close to it, the attraction is so strong that time-space forms a closed loop and travelling in a straight line keeps returning you to where you started from.

  25. “If there were no chairs, there wouldn’t be the word “chair.””

    I didn’t write that quote. It was La Rochefoucauld. Do you really believe that “love” is some mystical deep concept separate from attraction and ego attachment?

  26. “Do you really believe that “love” is some mystical deep concept separate from attraction and ego attachment?”

    No.

  27. “Love” is actually a thing, in my view. I’m not contending that it doesn’t exist. Even the simple Merriam-Webster definition describes it as something “constant”. “Love” involves honor. You can’t “love” someone if you knowingly dishonor them, regardless of how you ‘feel’ in any given moment.

    So if we want to define hypergamous female ego-attachment to a superior man as being “love”- OK, make that alteration and have at it. But if you do that, you are placing “love” hierarchically, significantly beneath ‘honor’ and ‘loyalty’ – among a whole host of other concepts concerning positive/workable interpersonal human dynamics.

  28. Love, honor, loyalty. It’s all just idealistic sentimental BS. Parsing the definitions isn’t worth any practical value. Best not to use the words at all.

  29. “But if you do that, you are placing “love” hierarchically, significantly beneath ‘honor’ and ‘loyalty’ – among a whole host of other concepts concerning positive/workable interpersonal human dynamics.”

    Your first paragraph mentioned that “love” involves honor (and last bit referred to not knowingly dishonoring someone…which I would liken to loyalty). In which case, love requires that loyalty and honor are intrinsic, not “lesser” in some pecking order. I agree with your first paragraph.

  30. “It’s all just idealistic sentimental BS. Parsing the definitions isn’t worth any practical value.”

    This is what happens when we dismiss a Classical education because the Greeks are just a bunch of dead white men.

  31. @mersonia
    “But you didn’t break down the human mating process and he did……”

    No, brah, you don’t understand. What BLAXIMUS did was SPECIAL. Cuz he’s a boss who banged the nurse that delivered him. This Attraction stuff PUAs learn is DIFFERENT. You can’t CODIFY ATTRACTION, didn’t you read the latest Jezebel article that said love is just something that either happens or it doesn’t?? It’s MAGIC.

    @Blaximus
    “Life, for a vast majority of men, is not viewed through a PUA lens. If that works for you, wonderful.”

    Do you think men googling “why the fuck did my girlfriend cheat on me?” or “how do I make a girl fall in love because I’m so fucking lonely?” are arriving here wanting to look at the world around them through an “I’d like to properly understand how Attraction works” lens?

    “I mean, this is a RP blog with great non PUA content.”
    “If anything is discussed outside of PUA think”

    To be fair this post is a PUA related post. Rollo is referencing Krauser and Krauser’s theory and talking about literally the goal OF PUA/seduction. What we’re bringing up is a valid point. This is entirely on topic. If what the implications behind the post are, go against what holds up infield (ie – this isn’t special, this is just normal seduction there’s no need for a new name, especially not one that newbies looking for burden of performance loopholes can easily misinterpret), then it needs to be addressed.

    “But the arrogance factor of the ” just get pussy ” crowd”

    You labelling us as the “just get pussy” crowd is WHY I have to explain that Mystery Method was ABOUT getting this “Deep Conversion” magical love shit and why I have to keep explaining that MMSL is just having married guys do the “SHORT TERM (ONLY WORKS TO GET SHALLOW PUSSY ON DRUNK BAR SLUTS) ATTRACTION” game. Because you guys keep trying to separate shit and put us in some little corner with a label. Because you don’t go out and do what we do so you don’t see just how much of what you think is super special unique magic Blaximus skillz can be broken down into codified steps for guys to follow and get the same thing if they want it and can execute it properly.

    “Just once I’d like to see an essay discussed while moving forward, instead of circular. No more Snark Week. Locks removed from minds.”

    Sure, but WE’RE not the ones with the locked minds dude. You’re the one who automatically dismisses everything us young guys say up on your OMG high-horse because it’s unfathomable to you that maybe other guys are able to understand things that you took a while to figure out.

    @Black Pill
    lol don’t sweat it. You’re in a way better spot compared to a lot of guys. My main wingman and I are mid-30s and we’re gaming young chicks lol Girls love older men these days.

    (didn’t notice your FR till after I wrote this so you can just skim this next part but it’s more applicable to general frustrated newbies more than you specifically, I make more direct notes to you below):

    “I have approached a good 100 women who have given me IOIs without it going further than maybe a kiss”

    Write Field Reports so we can see why it’s not going further than a kiss. Literally that’s the solution lol Like, we need to know what sort of stuff you’re doing to be able to go “ok this is where you dropped the ball, next time do XYZ”

    “and I am starting to lose confidence, because nothing ever goes anywhere”

    Nothing “goes anywhere”, that’s passive. You have to TAKE/LEAD things somewhere, which is where structure (like Mystery Method) comes in. 😉

    As Scribblerg says: “You sound like you are just kind of winging it when it comes to pickup and actual gaming of women. For me, buckling down and studying mystery method and running structured sets with a method to my madness was a huge stop forward”

    Exactly this. It sounds like you’ve mainly had Manosphere influences which are okay for getting some basic mindsets down but you still don’t have any CONTROL out there in your interactions. It sounds like you’re just hoping something happens. Field Reports help us narrow down “okay here is where you should’ve led her to isolation bla bla” I recommend you check out Mystery Method so you can start adding proper structure into your game to get you from having an interaction to having her in your apartment wanting to bone.

    You can still get results doing what you’re doing, but they’ll be inconsistent and frustrating and you’ll miss opportunities that you KNOW you “should’ve” gotten but didn’t know what to do to make it happen. It’s like a feeling of helplessness, a leaf blowing in the wind type shit. You want to MAKE shit happen, and that comes from structure and purposely leading things toward your goal.

    “For some reason all my friends who are in relationships, their wives are interested in me, and some have come onto me really hard.”

    Because most monoLTRs are boring lol

    “Eventually it turned out that one couple were literal swingers and I ended up fucking his wife a few weeks ago.. so none of this makes any fucking sense to me.”

    lolol could turn into drama so be careful with that one.

    “Next day I whatsapp her telling her I hope she didnt get in shit. Turns out her dad warned her about older guys, and that was that. Next time I saw her she’d gotten back together with her ex bf (who came across as beta as fuck), who she isnt sleeping with.”

    Nothing you could’ve really done here, just bad luck/timing on your part. You could’ve banged her before taking her back to her dad but that’s about it. Everything you did up to that point was fine. You could try to use Boyfriend Destroyers on her BF but it can be a long process. If she works there again just focus on flirting/teasing, giving her good emotions, laser eye-contact, etc and offer her a ride home or whatever and try escalating.

    (here’s some direct advice after reading your FR, which is why they’re important, I can tell from your FR whereabouts you are with game and what sticking points you’re likely to have etc):

    “It’s not like I am an outright failure”

    Your game is fine, first off lol You’re getting enough Attraction to get the girls so I wouldn’t even have you go spend time on Mystery Method now that I’ve read your FR, ’cause your problems sound like they’re coming down more to handling logistics than anything and you’re running into flakey txt shit (like girls making a plan for a picnic a week later, by the time that day arrives she’s got 100 other offers on the table…in the MOMENT she really wanted to do a picnic, but if you just number close you’re still usually just “some guy” a week later…it was different 5-10 years ago, but they’re just bombarded with options and attention these days). Was there a reason you couldn’t just stick with the Polish girl and try for the actual pull to sex? Even if there was, you also could’ve had the conversation over the phone via voice (where she can hear your tonality and you have her full attention and can hear immediate feedback/responses to calibrate to etc etc) rather than trying to game via a txt conversation.

    That’s the big takeaway in 2016, same as hank is figuring out: don’t try to game over txt. Avoid number closing in favor of the same night lay if you can, and if you can’t then just use txt as a way to get to a voice call where you can run better game. EVERY guy is trying to game via txt these days.

    “That second one she was really into me, had the deer in headlights look when I talked to her. This is what I find confusing. My text game may be way crap, and may show up the age gap, but I try keep it short, curt, and cocky, so I dunno.”

    Try phone calls instead (shoot a txt so when she responds you know you have her attention and then just call her and if she doesn’t pick up tease her about being shy in txt). Or ideally focus on the Same Night Lay. Flaking is at an all-time high in 2016, so you want to capitalize on the attraction while you have it. If you DO have to get a number, try HARD Time-Bridging (check out Julien’s PIMP product (get it by whatever means wink wink), specifically the section on Closing and how he does his number closes (and the infield with the pornstar chick where he Time Bridges EXACT specific plans with her for the next day, for like 20 minutes lol)) for a meetup within 48 hours. Like if you DO have to separate from her, you want to get back into an interaction with her within 48 hours, while she’s still feeling the attraction she had for you…past that you’re looking at a much higher flake rate. Like if you HAVE to take her number, do a hard Time Bridge (again watch that Julien infield, all his push/pull and disqualifying about like “don’t say yes if you’re one of those ditzy girls that makes a bunch of plans but flakes” etc lol) and push for coffee the next afternoon, like you meet her Friday night, push a Time Bridge for coffee Saturday afternoon (she may have plans for Saturday night already but you can bang her in the daytime just as much as at night lol).

    Ignore my recommendation for Mystery Method, your FR shows that you’re already doing that stuff fine. Instead just go get Julien’s PIMP product (by whatever means wink wink) and watch the entire section on Closing (there’s like 4 vids in it), and specifically watch the infield that starts with him on the dance floor telling a girl he has a sword (he’s carrying a balloon sword or something).

    Pay attention to when he gets her isolated in the corner, watch the whole thing from that point on and notice how much he goes back to his Time Bridging the coffee date. He’ll talk about other stuff and then go back to it, over and over, and get her to participate in defining and repeating the plans over and over etc. Combine that with meeting up within 48 hours and you should get less flakes…but ideally, like Julien describes in the Closing section (and demonstrates in his infield, like with the girl on the sidewalk in the daytime in the PIMP infield), always try for the actual pull even if it seems crazy to try for it (“but she’s with her friends”, figure out how to disarm them, “but she lives far away”, offer to drive her home, “but her dad is txting”, give her an excuse to tell him for why she’ll be a few min late and try to escalate, etc etc think of it like problem-solving lol)

    Spend the 2-3 hours it’ll take to watch the Julien PIMP stuff I recommend and you should be able to tighten your end/logistical game up.

    “Would be nice to just have one win to give me some confidence.”

    If it helps your game in general sounds just fine. You’re just running into endgame issues. It’s like you have a racecar with just one blown tire instead of a piece of shit car that’s broken and mangled and needs a complete overhaul lol Fix that tire and you’ll be cruising along just fine. 🙂

    And if you want to take up some super interesting hobby, go for it, but that super interesting hobby isn’t going to make girls not flake on you or make her whip her panties off when her dad txts her or make her stick around after a kiss etc lol those are external/logistical hurdles that there are external game solutions for.

    “so I get the fatty cockblock”

    GOTTA befriend the friends in that situation (fat girl hot girl combos). That fatty is your wingman for you to get her friend if you can win her over. Mystery Method Group Theory stuff for this one. Also consider that 3-sets might be easier for you than 2-sets, because in a 3-set the fatty has someone to talk to…in a 2-set, the fatty is stuck not having fun or you have to engage her and juggle more shit.

    “Also there are more, and younger, guys with game, so competition is more intense, bitch shields are up and activated.”

    Try merging sets:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fwlgN4378k

    This is an excessive version of it, you don’t have to go THIS extreme with this many people, but if you take a hot girl/ugly girl combo and merge them with another hot girl/ugly girl combo, now you have two hot girls to choose from (and the 2nd one views you as having Preselection just like the girls in this Julien merging video) and the two uggos can talk to eachother and the other hot girl lol Now you can get into a one on one conversation with your girl. You can even bring guys in to entertain the other hot girl and the fatties for you, just keep your girl focused on you (turn her back to the group etc).

    Since you know people at this venue this kind of thing should be easy for you, but note that Julien doesn’t even know the girls he’s introducing to eachother in that clip, even the one he says is his girlfriend isn’t that’s just some girl he’s calling his girlfriend as a playful roleplay.

    “One thing I do is over the course of a night I will approach the hottest single girl I see in a place – I don’t have a strategy per se. Even if it’s a few words I do it, just to avoid pussying out.”

    This is good, keep doing this lol

    “100 approaches does seem a lot to me. Feels like a shitload of rejection.”

    Don’t worry about the amount. Focus on better strategy and solving the logistics of getting them out of the bar and into your bed that night. You live walking distance from this place so like, all the elements are in place and lined up for you to be pulling, you just need to get around this hurdle.

    “An example? Normally I just make them laugh, saying things they don’t expect. I neg them playfully, usually try get them to talk about themselves a bit rather than putting too much pressure on myself to talk. It depends from girl to girl. I’ll never talk alt right stuff, at most I will drop something politically incorrect if its the right girl. I get a lot of appreciative ‘you’re so rudes’. Quite often if its a promo or shooter girl they will end up sitting talking to me half the night instead of working, so I think I am doing something right. Quite often ends up with them initiating kino – sitting with their legs against mine, brushing up on me, hand on forearm etc.”

    This is all just fine. I wouldn’t bother with Mystery Method except for the stuff on Group Theory. But otherwise you’re doing fine, even if you’re just naturally flipping the switches instead of consciously doing it, your problems aren’t in the actual interaction itself or you wouldn’t be getting these kinds of reactions.

    “One thing I am aware of is that I may be coming across as a player. Girls in this city have a fear of being consciously played. I might come across as too slick and confident, which I guess could be a red flag.”

    Merging would also help with this. Imagine if instead of just approaching the hottest single girl, you merged her into a set of hot girl/ugly girl that you were just chilling and joking around with and making laugh, and then introduced them all to eachother THEN focused on that hottest single girl. Now you’re not some sleazy player, you’re a social guy with Preselection.

    Also some disqualifying (disqualifying her or disqualifying yourself) helps avoid the player vibe, ’cause that comes off like you’re trying NOT to get them (Hank Moody in Californication is a great role model of an older man disqualifying himself with self-depreciation and “giving in” to having sex with the girl, VS trying to GET her), like the more she’s chasing you (because you disqualify her or yourself), the less she feels like you’re just a player and she’s prey.

    But I would focus on the PIMP stuff I recommend first ’cause even if you can get them more attracted to you, if you can’t get them out of the bar and into your bed that night you’re going to run into the same hurdles.

    “Honestly, I don’t know what my SMV is or how they see me anymore.”

    Don’t think about it. You’re fine lol

    “But at the same time, when it leads nowhere my overall confidence takes a dip, and I lose that sense of having SMV, which kindof compounds the after effects of seeing a 6 year long LTR go to shit and have my ex do the classic cold walk out on me like my SMV was zero. At this point because I havent had a gf for so long I struggle to feel like I am worth anything.”

    A buddy of mine is dealing with exactly this (similar age and time-frame on his LTR too, and similar ending to it) and is hitting the field slowly dragging himself out of his depression and self-esteem issues over it. You already know how/why you feel this way (being used to having external validation and then having it taken away and not being able to get it again etc) so there’s not much point psycho-analyzing it. Just grab PIMP and watch those sections and work on your end game and you’ll be fine lol

    “Increased competition means the majority of guys go to gym, are well groomed, shredded etc. Lots of good looking single guys around, women pretty much have their pick.”

    Perfect. Merge a hot girl/ugly girl combo with another hot girl/ugly girl combo, and then merge in a couple of these well groomed shredded dudes to entertain the fatties (pick some beta guys who will be too nice to be rude and not interact with them, then the fatties love you ’cause you handed them some dudes) and let them fight over the other hot girl, while you focus on isolation with one of the hot girls. 🙂 Just by being the social connector that introduces everyone and being able to spike girls emotions you should be able to come off cooler than the other guys.

    @Culum Struan
    “But I was thinking about it yesterday and I realised I KNOW I’m going to have that breakthrough. I know I’m gonna do it – there’s no doubt. It’s not an “if”.”

    This. Just go out. If you skip the gym or go to the gym and don’t lift anything, you won’t build muscle. But if you go to the gym and lift, you’ll build muscle over time. It’s just how the process works. Just write your Field Reports so you can narrow down where you need to tighten your shit up and keep going out putting yourself around women and in interactions with them. If you have an off night where you feel like shit, cool, sit and chill at a bar and sip a beer and have some bar food, at least you’re out. Even nights like that you eventually get bored and often end up opening just because sitting there by yourself is boring lol Try not taking your phone with you so you can’t throw yourself into surfing the net on it while you eat that burger.

    Remember this is supposed to be FUN lol

    “Of course the risk with this approach is that I can be so laid-back I can be at home watching Netflix instead of being out because “that’s what I want””

    This is the trap lol That’s why my paragraph above stresses STILL GOING OUT even if your goal is “to just stand in a corner being creepy all night” or “to sit at the bar and eat a burger and kill time till last call” etc

    “and I’m not gonna do that (for a start it ISN’T what I want in the long term).”

    Right. Going to the movies by yourself is fun, but your sex drive will come raging back if you don’t get laid for a bit or do no-fap for a bit, and then you’ll want company. Pretending that won’t happen is silly. But you don’t have to force it…put yourself in environments where the POTENTIAL is there and then chill.

    Also look at chill nights out as warmups for the next night out. Like “ok tonight I’m just going to be out around some chaos, I’ll go stand in this scary environment with all these hot unattainable girls and BE an awkward chode, whatever, because this will be scary but TOMORROW when I go to this LESS crazy venue, I’ll feel more confident because I went out tonight, even if I didn’t do anything”.

    Your problem isn’t that you need to do 100 approaches a night or anything. You already have most of the skillset. You need length of time in set over number of sets now.

    Also understand that THIS IS ALL PART OF THE PROCESS lol A lot of guys who don’t teach newbies will chime in going “now you finally understand” because they don’t understand that to get TO this point you have to go through the stuff you went through, and that the solution for this point will lead to another plateau and more solutions etc etc The game is about making it up the mountain, plateauing and sometimes even falling down the other side a bit, then finally being able to see that there’s an even higher mountain on that other side that you didn’t even realize was there, and then climbing that, and feeling that rush of excitement and love of the game again, then you plateau on that one, rinse and repeat over and over.

    So this is a totally normal stage you’re going through. And the solution for it is what you think it is: go into social environments but stop “trying”, just be chill/social without any real goals or rules in mind for a while.

    The thing that guys who don’t teach newbies don’t get is that if I tell you “just go out and don’t TRY” BEFORE you get to this plateau, you will 1) end up not learning the stuff you needed to learn because you’d be avoiding interactions that you needed to get you here, and 2) not get to this plateau until way further down the road and be further away from getting PAST the plateau onto the next mountain. So giving you that advice 6 months or a year ago would hinder you, whereas now when you can feel the frustration of the plateau, NOW it’s time to switch those gears up.

    But now you’re gonna get swarmed with the “FINALLY you understand our super deep message that PUAs totally don’t understand, just be DPA bro just don’t think just get a bunch of hobbies and then go out and let the mystical energy flow through you and PUSSY WILL FALL FROM THE SKY BRO” guys lol And you’re free to do any of that. But there are no hot girls in the forest where you’re cutting down trees like an OMG-Approved manly man lol You know where the girls are and you know that you’ll have to take action to get them. There’s a reason every single one of the “pussy will fall from the sky if you’re on your purpose bro” guys’ Field Reports involve them being around hot girls and actually taking action lol

    And they don’t get that sure you’ll listen to their alpha wave brain thought loop mp3s and go stand and feel your energy in a forest for a while, but WHEN that doesn’t get you laid, you’ll come back to pro-actively approaching, but you’ll have passed some internal hurdles that make it more potent. And then you’ll become an approach machine and plateau and go back to the forest except you’ll have better unconscious externals and subcomms etc from your approaching, and back and forth back and forth.

    This is what I was trying to explain to Rollo. It’s not one or the other. You can get laid with just the externals, but the externals help build the internals, and then the internals help build the externals, rinse and repeat over and over. This is the process. But you START with externals because it’s a lot easier to get you to remember not to lean in when you talk than it is to get your brain to believe women will respond positively to you when I put a girl in front of you because it wants PROOF not PROMISES and the smile you get when you remember not to lean in or you say that DHV etc will help build that internal “ohh, maybe I CAN get girls to enjoy interacting with me hmmm…” and the ping-pong game of internals and externals heading toward mastery begins.

    And like Walawala says “There comes a point in every PUA’s development where the push to get another notch starts to taper off and you begin to focus on what you want, higher quality and not being such an approach machine.”

    The thing is you will go back to being an approach machine down the road too lol but you’ll have better internal mindsets when you do it because you went through this plateau. And then down the road from there you’ll plateau again and go back to not trying but with better externals, etc etc these aren’t signs that you’re fucking up or anything, it’s just the natural ebb and flow of learning game. Don’t judge yourself for these things, just accept them as part of the process. This is a life long thing you’re doing, you can spend a couple weeks just chilling in venues. If you fall too far into being too passive, your dick will remind you that you want to get laid lol

    “Keep going until you are ready to just be, to coast and to know you don’t have to bang the 6 just because she said “hi” to you.”

    lol I screen SO fucking hard. Guys would be surprised because I think most guys picture PUAs as just going for whatever’s receptive (because that’s what most guys do). I turn down a LOT of opportunities, but I turn them down because in the past I TOOK them and learned what I needed to learn by doing that lol And I have limited free time right now, so I don’t want to spend the little free time I DO have with girls that I don’t enjoy being around.

    @Black Pill
    “In future I will just treat that as a shit test. Any suggestions welcome – I can’t just defer the question with a joke, have tried this and they are persistent, had one girl ask me 20+ times.”

    Defer with a joke, then “Agree & Amplify”. “Waaaaay too old for YOU. (silence and stare, maybe look her down & up)” “lololz no really how old are you??” “How old do you think?” “20-whatever?” “wow I love you.” “lolol c’mon how old are you??” “37. (said CONFIDENTLY with sexual laser eye-contact (Liam Macrae on YouTube “Rapid Escalation”), like being an older man is BETTER to you and like YOU might disqualify HER for being too YOUNG) You could practically be my daughter, what are you 18? Did you sneak in here with a fake ID?” etc etc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a88SnRrEcKI&t=1m40s

    Skip to these timestamps:

    1:40 – Tyler opens and pulls her into isolation ASAP, laser eye-contact and does a playful roleplay

    Then skip to 8:00 – Note how he even initiates the age conversation (Tyler is 33 in this clip, he’s 37 like you now) but he does it as if HE’S qualifying HER like “Don’t lie to me to try to impress me, tell me the TRUTH so I can screen you out for being too young because young girls are dumb” Then he can freely tell her his age because he’s already build enough attraction that she doesn’t care about his age and he can even make jokes about her having to call him daddy and shit fully rubbing their age difference in her face. HE thinks the age difference is funny and high-value, he doesn’t view himself as low value for being too old, so the girls generally don’t feel that way either.

    Polish girl didn’t care about your age when you were interacting in person. She cared about it after she lost the attraction you were making her feel in-person and you were in a boring text conversation…which is why a voice call might be better, it’s easier to spark attraction again, but both are less optimal than just trying for the pull that night lol

    “Generally I find the more rapport I have with them the less they care or seem interested, but in many cases where I get numbers I get asked that the next day. So if I have to bridge it to another day, that’s where the vulnerability comes in. ”

    ’cause the next day she’s in a different emotional state than you were making her feel when you were in front of her engaging her emotions directly, where she didn’t care. The next day she’s in who knows what state, so you’re more likely to get her trying to qualify you. In 2005 you could meet a girl and she’d still remember you and how she felt with you for a week or two after, that’s why we used to wait a couple days before calling etc. But now her phone at 2am has like 50 txts on it in 10+ different conversations, tons of dudes, same thing with all day Saturday as guys try to get her attention and friends bring her drama etc etc

    I can’t quite tell if you’re insecure about your age or if you just are annoyed that it’s seeming to cockblock you, but if you WERE insecure about it (especially if you’re macking girls in their 20s) that would be TOTALLY NORMAL, you just got out of a 6 year LTR and are back in the field where the young dudes beside you are doing tequila shots, maybe you even used to BE like them when you were their age etc. Like don’t sweat it if you DO feel insecure (but you might not, I can’t tell from your writing).

    If you ARE a bit like “ah she’s not gonna like me, I’m way too old for her”, the best cure for any insecurity is to shove it in your face until you don’t care about it anymore lol If I was with you I would take you to a nightclub full of young chicks and have YOU start the age conversation with them and try to disqualify them as being “too young” like you’re looking for a mature responsible woman not some ditzy bar chick etc till you can get them qualifying themselves to you (“I’m not THAT young!!” “my ex was 34!!” etc).

    Also I get where the “do a million approaches” guys are coming from, but for you and your situation I wouldn’t even worry that much about it. Try merging and tighten up your end game and you should do fine. Your problem is more logistical hurdles than anything attraction-based, you’re already getting lots of attraction. But lots of attraction doesn’t mean she doesn’t still have to drive her drunk girlfriend home because she’s staying at her place and she lives 90 minutes outside the city and she needs you to solve that dilemma for her lol

    That’s not to say you CAN’T approach a bunch more, or that you won’t learn anything from it. Feel free to do it. But you can do a lot more with your current style of going out to make it more potent. Like you can mix the ingredients you already have better to make a better tasting cake, you don’t necessarily need to go buy new ingredients. You can merge groups and Time Bridge harder etc without leaving a bar stool lol

    @hank holiday @Culum Struan
    “well, you don’t always have to be spam approaching, but you do have to always be pushing boundaries. otherwise you will make no progress and stagnate. so you must always have goals and always be pushing for them.”

    This is technically right but it’s okay to tell him NOT to set any goals or try to push his boundaries because once he spends a week or two NOT doing anything infield his brain will go “ok but seriously, let’s just talk to this girl beside us, how about that?” and he’ll start setting goals again lol

    Also he can set non-approach based goals…ie – a goal could be to keep a conversation going for half an hour, it can be a conversation at all, or disagree with a girl for the first 5 minutes about anything she says etc, VS “approach 50 girls and get a makeout or you’re worthless”, like low energy low stakes simple goals that don’t put massive outcome dependent pressure on him.

    “you need a more of a stack. and also other random dhvs you can just drop in there as things come up.”

    The problem is the online date is meeting up with him with some A2 that he’s built up over messages (she has to be SOME kind of potential green light or she wouldn’t be coming out to meet up with him) so he’s comfortable in that situation…but with a girl he’s just met, his brain is like “but we can’t just pretend this is an online date, I don’t have 2 weeks of messaging her or anything, I only have 5 minutes of flirting with her”

    A stack can help bridge this gap because it’s like “ok no matter what, if she gives me some iois then I’ll just say “it’s loud over here let’s go sit” and take her hand and lead her over there and then I’ll say that thing I say at the start of all my online dates” etc etc like, even that counts as a stack. It’s just a gameplan of shit to execute when your brain isn’t cooperating with you.

    It’s funny because this is techncially an easy problem to solve, like if I was out with Culum and we opened a 2-set, I would just lead us all to a table and turn mine so that I’m isolated in conversation with her and he would know “okay YaReally is going to handle the friend for a while so I have a solid half hour to kill with this girl” and he would just find that he’s IN an online date situation, sitting and talking to a girl just like he’s done a million times before and he’d be like “oh, I guess it’s really the same thing, it just FELT different”.

    But having to do it himself, after years of online stuff, his brain is probably having trouble going from “open her and get her laughing” to “feel like I’m in an online date situation where I can comfortably execute all my online date stuff”

    @Blaximus
    “Guys, correct me if I’m wrong, but I see the age question as an ioi in itself.”

    Technically yes and it’s best to view it that way (because it helps you pass the shit-test), since it means she’s picturing in her head the possiblity of you two being together in some way, otherwise it wouldn’t be relevant.

    But on a deep technical nuance level, the age question after you have A2 (female to male interest, aka she’s attracted to you) is seeking rapport whereas the age question before you have A2 is more of a shit-test/disqualifier. In both cases she’s thinking “could we be together” but BEFORE you have A2 she’s looking for reasons NOT to be together, whereas AFTER A2 she’s looking for reasons to BE together. Either way though, pass the shit-test right and you can spark attraction, so mentally framing it as always an ioi is best.

    @SJF
    “What about pre-selection, and social proof, rather than sniping?”

    You got it. See I can give props when you’re right about something that holds up infield lol

    @scribblerg
    “@YaReally – Credit where credit is due. I used to be so self-conscious about my age but now it’s like whatever…It’s an opening for me now, lol. All due to YaReally and other men’s coaching from right here.”

    All I do is report from the field. The only reason I know the age stuff is irrelevant (just like the looks and money stuff) is because PUAs (like Tyler in that clip I just linked), my buddies, myself, etc, have all purposely pushed those limits to test that shit and see where the real boundaries are. Turns out there pretty much aren’t any lol Go out infield enough and push the boundaries enough and you’ll see the same things we see and realize “oh…I get what YaReally was talking about now” lol

    My goal is just to help more and more guys see their inherent value and get the results they want out of the game. You could’ve let your age hold you back and no one in the Blue Pill world or even parts of the Manosphere would have judged you for it. They’d say “ya man, gaming is way harder when you’re old, you should go on OKCupid dates with 40yos and offer them an allowance or go to Eastern Europe”.

    But you chose to go out and push your comfort zone and push your limits and now you see what we see. 🙂

    And more importantly, you see how much potential you still have to live an awesome life even as an old dude who got burned hard and had to start over from scratch at an age where most guys would give up. Regardless of anyone’s feelings on President Trump (lolol wtf world are we living in, I love it), that dude is fucking *70* and has the energy of a 25yo (probably from not drinking or doing drugs), he was doing like 5 rallies a day in multiple states etc at the END of his campaign when he should be the MOST tired, and he isn’t even in good physical shape. Imagine if he did a few pushups or laid off the carbs a bit, even at 70 he probably wouldn’t have much problem getting laid. You’re only in your 50s, you could fit my entire pickup career, every pickup-related adventure I’ve ever been on, between your current age and 70 lol

    Just take care of your health so you can enjoy it instead of spending 20 years in a nursing home instead of with girls curled up in a hammock watching the stars with you lol

    “@Black Pill – One more tip. The age question also invites the conversation about the young guys she’s got floating around her, her orbiters. Get her to tell you about young beta guys who supplicate to her and how pathetic they seem to her. Talk about how young men these days are etc. She will pile on and maybe even start showing you her phone. Be the guy “who just gets it”.”

    This. Bigly. It also helps you learn how lame most of your competition is, which helps in terms of confidence lol

    “Thanks guys. In having this conversation I realized it is me taking a shit test to the next level because I am so aware I am hitting 40 next year.”

    lol ya when I turned 30 I went through the same thing. In my 20s I legit thought 30+ was over and done with. That was “old” and I better settle down or something before then because no way a guy in his 30s can still get hot young girls. Turns out I was wrong lol Most of the oldschool PUA instructors are in their late 30s now and doing just fine.

    When I turned 30 I was hanging with younger dudes who would take me to young venues (’cause of course they wanted to go there, not go to some “old people bar” like I felt like I should maybe start going to), and I felt insecure and self-conscious until I forced myself to just start bringing up our age difference in every conversation with every girl lol That’s where I learned that most of them love older men and/or have been with older men and/or just don’t give a shit and/or feel like *I* might disqualify THEM for being too young for me to want to waste my time on lol THAT was a mindfuck and a half. Now I literally tell girls “I have a DECADE on you. Think about that. That’s TEN YEARS. Do you even know what (something from the 80s, as if everything from back in my generation was the best and SHE’S lame for not knowing about it) is? Tsk tsk I didn’t think so, you can go now.” just to purposely drill in my age because it’s self-amusing to me now lol

    Now I would WAY rather be mid-30s than mid-20s. When I go to those same venues (yup still going to them lol and still doing just fine), I look around at the guys in their 20s and they’re all just squirrels bouncing around with no old man oak tree groundedness to them. No authority or dominance etc They fall into girls frames so easily and are just living fully in reaction to everything around them. But girls aren’t looking for more female energy lol

    Click here for more on the difference between cooler older men and chodes lol:

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/work-on-your-personality/#comment-574707

    @Zhu Wunang
    Solid response to Black Pill on qualifications and the difference between actual ones and ones that are just going to be funny and spike her emotions. I do a lot of playing up the age difference from the frame of they’re silly young girls who don’t know anything about the world and I’m way more mature and wise than them and everything from my generation was better etc. Hank Moody from Californication is a good role model of an older man interacting with younger women but viewing THEM as immature/silly and viewing himself as awesome, instead of viewing himself as too old or low-value and viewing THEM as the prize…in Hank’s frame it’s like the younger girls are an inconvenience/hassle to him but he’ll LET them fuck him if he HAS to, etc

    Also generally a guy has to start with the token disqualifications (making fun of her for being too young or not knowing how to cook etc) because before he’s laid a bunch of girls he doesn’t REALLY know what he does/doesn’t like. He might have some general ideas from previous relationships but he doesn’t really know himself well yet. He needs to be with a bunch of girls to learn “okay THESE are things I want in a girl and THESE are things I don’t care if a girl has and THESE are absolute deal-breakers”, and those things will be specific to him, his goals, the lifestyle he wants/has, etc Like right now based on my lifestyle (working a shitload) I have to screen out certain girls that, 10 years from now (when I have way more free time), I might not screen out. And vice-versa, some girls that pass my screening now and fit into my current lifestyle, I might screen out 10 years from now. But I’ve been with enough girls to know what type of things do and don’t work for me and whatever shape my lifestyle takes on. A guy just getting back out there will need some time to figure that stuff out.

    @theasdgamer
    “Does getting laid over a thousand times with one woman count for anything or does it have to be with multiple women?”

    10:45:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOWdKbSV-JE&t=10m45s

    @Blaximus
    “A chick could bone all day long, but that’s no indicator of her mental state wrt to you. Guys seem to miss this completely, talking about ” attraction ” and what not”

    No, you just don’t understand that we GET this shit lol This is what Mystery Method teaches guys to get. You keep thinking it’s some high-level thing the same way girls think attraction is some high-level thing. It’s been codified and isn’t as hard to get as people think, and yes that’s talking about the mental state not just boning her.

    The longer you assume no one but OMGs can possibly understand this amazing thing you think is unexplainable high-level shit that none of us silly PUAs could ever experience, the longer we’ll keep having these back and forths lol

    “But, guys will believe what they want. It’s just that if dudes can believe in pick up, they should be able to understand this.”

    This “Deep conversion” is LITERALLY WHAT PICKUP TEACHES lol Deep conversion is just seduction done PROPERLY. This is why it’s retarded to give it a new name, it just muddies the waters.

    And there’s no permanant deep connection. Your wife WILL lose attraction if you become a beta chode for too long. At best a high level of attraction (aka “Deep conversion”) will give you a small buffer, and/or if you have a lifelong investment with her she might stay out of obligation, but Attraction is not a choice, her mind will be wandering. She can’t shut off her Hypergamy.

    It’s literally just proper seduction done right lol nothing special no matter how much you guys want to believe it is, just like attraction is nothing special, it’s just flipping the right switches, no matter how much girls want to believe it is.

    @Sentient
    “Yet Deep Conversion is an impossible concept…”

    It’s NOT an impossible concept. It’s literally just SEDUCTION. The thing we’ve been teaching forever lol It’s what guys are supposed to be learning how to DO, it’s ENTIRELY POSSIBLE lol

    What’s impossible is converting a girl to where she’ll stay attracted when you’re no longer triggering her Hypergamy and she has better options triggering it.

    @Culum Struan
    “Good vibes and subcomms..what do I *DO*?”

    If you’re going to wing it without routines (and I get what you’re saying about them feeling stilted to you and whatever), then put your main focus on self-amusing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4zhbqj9WFU

    Ignore the actual words he’s saying about the period stuff in this next clip lol in the actual TenGame infield this is clipped from, after this part he explains “DON’T use my style of humor…don’t say these things, these are just the things that are funny to ME and make ME laugh, you’ll have a DIFFERENT sense of humor and DIFFERENT things that make you laugh, it’s not WHAT I’m saying it’s the fact that it’s making MYSELF have good emotions”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NZwHxYl3A4

    When you’re self-amusing your brain will connect dots and come up with things to say that it doesn’t do when you’re talking about something that isn’t self-amusing to you. Like if I say a routine someone else gives me, it’s not very fun for me so Julien talks about this a LOT these days. And he stresses in his TenGame infield to NOT say the WORDS he’s saying (’cause he says fucked up stuff), focus on the emotions it’s giving HIM, THAT’S what the girl is responding to, regardless of HOW he makes himself feel good emotions.

    Like one of my buddy’s has certain things he thinks are HILARIOUS (like saying cheesy pickup lines or pretending to be lamer than he is), that don’t do ANYTHING for me, but when he even TALKS about them or I even SUGGEST something along those lines, he starts smiling and is already internally laughing to himself. So when he does that stuff with girls, they love him. Whereas I don’t get off on it so if I do it they blow me out, but I have my OWN things that I instinctively smile at (deadpan humor, making shit up and seeing how far I can exaggerate it before they realize I’m fucking with them, making gay jokes with my wingman, etc). Both of us are WAY tamer than Julien’s period jokes, but we feel the same as he does when we poke our personal self-amusing buttons and the girls respond to that.

    If you watch Julien’s face, even when he’s playing footage for the students and he cuts back from something he’s said, he INSTINCTIVELY starts to smile and feel good emotions. Like in the Julien & Luke Devil’s Threeway video above, watch Julien’s face as soon as the student says “like…uhhh, incest?” Julien INSTINCTIVELY can’t help but chuckle to himself at that. Because it’s a trigger for him, personally.

    I don’t even need routines based around “making shit up and exaggerating it” or “making gay jokes”, those will just COME to me once I start because once I’m tapping into what’s self-amusing to ME, my brain goes “this feels good, so I want to do more of this so here’s more stuff to say that will result in more of this good feeling”, VS if I’m saying shit that isn’t self-amusing to me, where I gotta plan it out or have routines for it because my brain is like “what is THIS? This isn’t FUN…I dunno where to take THIS shit” and it fizzles. But if I’m self-amusing my brain will just connect dots for me and spit out gold because I’m making it feel good by doing those specific things it likes. These will be different for every guy but you’ll be able to figure out what consistently makes you laugh inside your head when you think back to your interactions.

    The trick with self-amusement is that even if the girl blows you out, you’re pumping your own state and good feelings, so you don’t CARE if she leaves. Like the period chick he says to the audience “Does it look like I care if she walks away? Would my night be worse if she walked off? No I wouldn’t care because I’m just making myself have fun and laugh, VS if I’m TAKING value where I’m trying to GET something and she walks off and I feel that “aghhh dammit!!” feeling”

    You can do 50 approaches and if none of it is self-amusing to you, you don’t feel great unless you get some good reactions. But if you’re self-amusing, you can do 5 approaches and they can all BOMB but you end up being in state because you were saying and doing things that were fun to you and put you in a good state.

    Most guys have NO IDEA what makes them laugh lol Because why would they, they’ve never had to think about it and narrow it down.

    (highly recommend the infield in TenGame btw, there’s a TON of great content in his breakdowns of his footage, he’s better than he was in PIMP, grab TenGame’s infield however you can wink wink lol)

    @hank holiday
    “okay so got to work on a girl working at check out”

    That was solid shit. That could’ve just been a normal boring interaction or you could’ve just stood there while she fixes the situation. By teasing her you turned the whole thing into an actual interaction where she’ll remember you.

    @N1
    “My limited experience in this suggests that with a 2-set you really need a wingman, otherwise you end up getting activley/passivly cockblocked.”

    A 3-set is easier solo than a 2-set because in a 3-set 2 of the girls can entertain eachother while you focus on one of them (win them all over of course though lol). In a 2-set you gotta juggle more shit comin at ya or risk the 2nd girl feeling left out and cockblocking so if I’m solo and have to run a 2-set I’ll usually try to bring in some random dude to talk to the friend. Most guys are happy to be introduced to a girl even if they won’t do anything amazing I just need them to bore her while I get time to build a connection with my target.

    @Zhu Wunang
    “You are trying to describe something that is very real to you, for which we have confirmation from the other OMGs and the guys in your social circle that it exists (so we know it’s not a hallucination”

    The only part of it that’s a hallucination is the idea that it overcomes Hypergamy. Getting a really deep connection with a girl is just what you’re supposed to be DOING if you follow MM and run a proper seduction lol

    Every single one of these guys’ wives would lose attraction if they stopped triggering their Hypergamy and other guys were triggering it. It’s not a choice, it’s hardwired.

    But they’re doing stuff that they don’t REALIZE is game lol So they lose their job but are still dominant, alpha, pass her shit-tests, confident, etc and go “SEE I LOST MY JOB BUT SHE STAYED WITH ME TILL I GOT A NEW ONE, I BEAT HYPERGAMY WITH MY DEEP CONVERSION”. No, you just don’t understand game lol

    “but is incredibly difficult to describe in such a way that people who have neither seen nor experienced it can understand.”

    Until people understand that we HAVE experienced this shit, it’s literally what Mystery Method was ABOUT, we’ll continue to have these fights. It’s like someone who grew up baking bread from scratch going “you guys these days don’t understand what bread is like” and we’re going “ya we do, we can get it at the grocery store for a few bucks, it’s easy” “No no you don’t understand, bread takes hours and you need these special ingredients I use” “Ya we know, they’re on the ingredients label, we can just churn this shit out with machines now” “but that’s DIFFERENT!!! This is HOMEMADE!!!” “okay then we can order it from a bakery that makes homemade bread” “BUT…But you just don’t understand!!!”

    The hardest part for these guys to accept is that maybe we DO know how to get what they think is special magical and hard to get, and we can do it way faster and easier than they can comprehend because they didn’t get it that fast. And it’s not a big deal to us because it’s what we were leaning about from day 1, so we don’t even CARE about it or actively try to AVOID it, while they’re still thinking “but, but, you can’t get it THAT fast, there’s no way!! *I* couldn’t do it that fast and I’m a boss!!”

    Sorry guys, we are just better educated on the subject. We understand how bread is made and we know the most efficient way to make it and it’s the exact same bread you took a week to gather ingredients and hand-churned the flour (or whatever lol) to make.

    Guys who get replaced with automation in factories probably go through a similar frustration/denial of “but, but, that machine can’t screw the screws onto that car the way a HUMAN can!!” Sorry, it can, and it can even screw it BETTER and more consistently, I know that’s hard to accept but that’s just how it is lol

    “accounts of the benefits of marriage or DC are going to sound like bigfoot Jesus to them.”

    There is simply no benefit that isn’t linked to FI-conditioned beliefs is all. You can believe that that blue shirt makes you more attractive, and you can reap the benefits of confidence and self-assuredness that come with that believe, but that is still a conditioned belief based in nothing…blue shirts are objectively not “more attractive than other shirts”.

    Every benefit can be boiled down to either not holding up under analysis, no longer being consistently/reliably applicable in 2016, or being based in FI-conditioning.

    The scary part to these guys is accepting that maybe we are just THAT fucking smart that we GET their position and we DO understand what they’re talking about and we CAN and HAVE experienced the shit they’ve experienced, but that we’ve done it in a more efficient way, broken it down and codified it and pulled the body apart to clinically name all the parts that make it function, and don’t view it as this special magical shit that their social conditioning has convinced them it is. They keep wanting us to see the beauty and magesty of churning butter when we get the exact same results easier and faster with an automated butter factory(? I don’t know how bread or butter is made lol).

    “However, you also have direct experience that there is something more to DC that is being missed by Yareally’s explanation.”

    This is imaginary fluff. Unless it counters Hypergamy, it’s just “lots of attraction”.

    It’s literally exactly the same as a guy with one-itis explaining how you just don’t understand, HIS girl is SPECIAL, she’s DIFFERENT, what THEY have is MAGICAL, bla bla bla it’s all the same shit lol That guy just really wants to believe that what he has is special. But it’ll follow the exact same rules it always does for everyone. It’s just pizza.

    “You can’t quite explain what it is or how it works in a way that isn’t fairly easy to swat down using current RP/PUA theory.”

    That’s because it ISN’T anything special just like that guy’s one-itis isn’t anything special. They just FEEEEEEEEEL like it’s special because they’re operating on FEEEEEEELZ when they discuss it. That’s why they hate when I clinically pull it apart. Because that’s BAD FEEELZZZZ The exact same way girls feel bad feels when they discover Tyler is teaching nerds how to trigger Attraction…that was supposed to be SPECIAL, it was supposed to “just happen”.

    This is just emotional bullshit from red pill OMGs lol

    “This tells me the RP/PUA model is inadequate to explain ALL of the experiences you have observed.”

    No, their experiences are clouded by emotions the exact same way the one-itis guy thinks we can’t explain his super special connection with his girl.

    “I believe you may be describing something for which the word love might have been perfectly adequate 50 years ago”

    Hypergamy worked 50 years ago exactly how it does now. It’s just that society was different so it was easier to keep Hypergamy triggered (less selection of men, a culture that promoted masculine red pill behavior, lack of instant communication = more dread, etc)

    This shit is just guys letting their FI-conditioned emotions complicate shit that’s very simple and consistent. Muddying the waters and making it confusing for newbies.

    “That means that you guys can’t give up when the discussions get pissy, when you get misunderstood, or even when you get mocked.”

    Does NO ONE see them initiating the snark half the time?? When they get butthurt about someone saying something objective and clinical and they take it as a personal offense and get all condescendingly snarky? And then play the victim? lol This is silly.

    “They’re not going to accept anything that isn’t very well supported, and why should they?”

    We can explain everything they feel just like we can explain everything the one-itis guy feels. But the one-itis guy will stubbornly push back and argue that we can’t possibly know what he feels, just like the OMGs will do the same. It’s all the same shit: guys making emotional arguments that don’t hold up to scrutiny because they’re based in feels not reality.

    “When the YSGs “don’t get it,” consider that a failure of jargon instead of an insult, and use different words.”

    Or consider that we DO “get it”, and we are just THAT MUCH ahead of them lol It’s like they’re saying “but guys guys, look at this really cool bottle rocket” while we’re constructing a rocket for NASA. Ya kid, your bottle rocket is super, we already get it. And the kid is sitting there going WHY AREN’T THEY MORE EXCITED ABOUT MY BOTTLE ROCKET THESE GUYS DON’T UNDERSTAND ROCKET SCIENCE AT ALL!! MY BOTTLE ROCKET IS SPECIAL!!!

    “eventually you will find a way to describe the taste of licorice.”

    We already know what licorice tastes like. I can take any girl I pull in the next month and get licorice if I want it. We’ve codified how to do it. And yes, it’s the same licorice you guys are chewing on, except you were fumbling around in the dark to get the package open while we have a system that lets us open it more efficiently, as much as that crushes your souls to accept lol

  32. Andy: “It’s all just idealistic sentimental BS. Parsing the definitions isn’t worth any practical value.”

    KFG: “This is what happens when we dismiss a Classical education because the Greeks are just a bunch of dead white men.”

    Well someone actually needs to parse some definitions. Because none of the different sides of the discussion are actually having a discussion about the same things.

    YaReally is talking about supercalifragilisticexpialidocious sport-fucking desire (otherwise know as masculine/feminine sexual polarity) and others are talking about mundane love and then also something in between those two.

    The following delineates some differences between plain love (which is a choice), romance (keeping a relationship together–if you want to) and sexual polarity/deep attraction triggering emotions (which is not a choice).

    Apologies for the airy-fairy Deida Language. If you don’t puke at the airy-fairy language, there are distinctions in what everyone here is actually talking about but not able to communicate. And the term “Intimate Communion” is an embarrassing abomination of a term for a manosphere blog. I get that. And the last paragraph is not really any type of summary and barely understandable, but I left it for completeness.

    I’m not going to blockquote it because the italics would be annoying.

    Deida’s Chapter 2 from Intimate Communion book:

    “Untangling Love

    THE THREE WAYS OF “LOVE”

    “I love you, son.”

    “Look at that young couple, they are so in love.”

    “My God, how badly I want to make love with you fuck your brains out.”

    In our culture, we have a tendency to use the word “love” for three very different feelings. We can begin to understand some of the complexities of our intimate life when we untangle these three different threads of our loving. The practice of Intimate Communion

    depends on a clear understanding of these three separate elements in an intimate relationship: love, romance and polarity.

    Love

    Of the three–love, romance and polarity–love is the simplest to understand and the most difficult to practice. Love is simply what is when your heart is open.

    You could love your husband, your dog, your mother, your car, a book, your child, a painting or the seashore-or all of them at once. Love is simply the opening of your heart. When your heart is open, you love whomever, or whatever, is in your life. Love is the union of you and the one you are with.

    Love is what is when your heart is open. To do love is to open your heart. If you are waiting to feel love, as if love will come to you, you may be waiting for a long time. Love happens whenever your heart opens, whether io years from now or right now, in this very moment.

    Love has nothing to do, necessarily, with sex. You can love someone and not have sexual desire for them. You can want to have sex with someone you don’t even know, or someone you are not loving. You exist as love when your heart is unguarded and opened, and you close yourself off to love when you guard your heart.

    You can actually learn to love. You can learn how to open your heart, even when circumstances are difficult. Even when your relationship is painful, even when you feel hurt, you can practice opening your heart. You can practice love. This is the foundation of Intimate Communion: to practice opening your heart in every moment, including when you feel hurt. Rather than turn away or close down, you can practice loving. This practice of love extends far beyond conventional therapy.

    There are many good books about how our intimate relationships often replicate our relationships with our parents. There are many good therapists who know how to work with childhood issues that come up in our intimacies. And when we work with a therapist, we often begin by examining our past, our parents, our childhood.

    Our childhood stuff seems endless, once we begin to dig. A little digging is good, in order that we understand the roots of our search for love and its resulting frustration. But after a little digging, it is

    time to release the past and practice intimacy right non’, in the present. Rather than concerning ourselves with the past cause of our present unhappiness, we can instead practice opening our hearts, right now. And through this moment to moment practice of open-hearted intimacy, this practice of being love, the power of the past weakens.

    When you fall and wound your knee, it hurts. It’s good to take a few moments, inspect the wound, clean it and put a bandage on it. Without doing much else, it will heal. Unless, of course, you keep falling on your knee and re-wounding it.

    In the same way, your childhood wounds will heal on their own, as long as you don’t repeat the old pattern of wounding yourself over and over again. It is much better to practice true intimacy now than it is to continually focus on the past, just as it is much better to learn how to walk without falling rather than it is to focus on your wounded knee.

    Eventually, through this practice of loving, our old childhood patterns of turning away or closing down when we feel hurt, or punishing our partner for hurting us, dissolve. We may still feel hurt when our partner acts unlovingly, but our hurt does not become closure. Our pain does not create distance in our relationship. Likewise, when we act unlovingly toward our partner, he or she can practice love, rather than striking back, closing down or becoming distant.

    Romance

    Imagine that you are at a party and you meet a person of the opposite sex. The two of you begin a conversation and the rapport is instant. The talk seems effortless. You really enjoy being with this person and you feel really comfortable. In fact, the familiarity is startling. You look at this person and say, “Its hard to believe that we just met a few minutes ago. I feel like I’ve known you for a long time, Maybe we knew each other in a past life or something!”

    Have you finally met “the one,” the mate you have always been hoping to find? You leave the party thinking about this person. You feel happy, maybe even a bit giddy inside. The two of you begin seeing each other, spending more and more time together. You feel the specialness of the relationship. There is a sense of uniqueness and destiny; you feel that it was meant to be.

    This is romantic attraction, infatuation, “falling in love.”

    Romantic attraction begins with a strong feeling of oneness and of bonding, a feeling that you have “always known each other.” You have probably felt this way about some person at some point in your life. If you have, you know that the feeling doesn’t last. After several months, or, if you are lucky, several years, the feeling of romantic attraction wears off.

    And when it does, it always seems to turn into something very specific. This person who was once so magical to you, this one who seemed to be the one who was going to give you everything you ever wanted, who was going to bring unending love into your life once and for all, seems to turn into precisely the person who does not give you what you want.

    Eventually, relationships based on romantic attraction always result in not getting the love you want. Why? Because romantic attraction is based on an imprint in our psyche that formed during our childhood. As many of us have already discovered through therapy or personal reflection, those people to whom we are romantically attracted are exactly those people who embody the qualities, good and bad, of our parents. Whatever our parents didn’t give us enough of (love, attention, praise, freedom, etc.), is exactly the thing we will not get from our romantically chosen partner.

    It seems like we “always knew” our romantic partner because we did know him or her: in the familiar texture of our parents, imprinted in our childhood psyche! Our new partner seems so special because we unconsciously hope to continue the relationship we had with our parents and finally get the love we always wanted, the acceptance we always desired, the fulfillment of our heart that we always craved. And, because we have unconsciously chosen our parents in our partner, we have chosen someone who will not give us what we always wanted, in exactly the same way that our parents didn’t. (Even if our romantic partner does give us what we want, we often cannot receive it, because our childhood imprint doesn’t believe it is real.)

    As the thrill of being in love” wears off, your romantically-chosen partner seems to be perfectly suited to cause you pain. He or she seems to have an uncanny ability to poke at your weak spots and hurt

    you, though not necessarily on purpose; the person who used to bring out the best in you now seems to bring out the worst, just by being himself or herself. And you do the same for your partner. Because romantic attraction is based on qualities in your partner that you unconsciously recognize from your childhood experiences, you will be as fulfilled and as unfulfilled by your partner’s love as you were by your parents’.

    Sexual Polarity

    The subtle power of sexual polarity pervades all our lives. It draws us toward our lover. It makes us uncomfortable with our spouses best friend. It keeps a marriage full of life, and when it is gone, it takes the life with it. What is sexual polarity?

    You are standing in the supermarket choosing tomatoes. You look up, straight into a very attractive stranger’s eyes, a stranger of the opposite sex. A jolt of electricity runs through you. Your eyes remain engaged a little longer, and then you look down at the tomatoes. Your body is flush with energy and aliveness.

    Sexual polarity the magnetic pull or repulsion between the Masculine and Feminine-affects all our lives. A few moments of sexual polarity can cause the memory of your trip to the supermarket to linger in your mind for hours or even days. Total strangers can raise your body temperature, cause your face to blush and make your heart pound. On the other hand, when sexual polarity is weak in our intimate relationships, we begin to feel that something is missing, and we often blame our partners or ourselves.

    Sexual polarity either is or isn’t happening-or so it seems at first. Before we understand that sexual polarity can be consciously turned on or off, we call it “chemistry.” It seems that either your intimate relationship has it or it doesn’t. In today’s modern ideal of a relationship based on friendship, we sometimes act as if sexual polarity is not as important as, say, good communication. So, over time, our intimate relationships tend to become more talk and less action.

    However, whether we like to admit it or not, talk is not enough for many of us. We also want to share the energetic juice of sexual polarity with our intimate partner.

    So, in the practice of Intimate Communion, we learn to consciously practice the art of cultivating and sharing sexual polarity. We face the fact that for most of us, the force of polarity is at the core of our sexual attraction in intimacy. This mysterious force affects all our lives, yet remains mostly at an unconscious level.

    We begin to master sexual polarity by becoming sensitive to its flow in everyday life. Imagine you are in a room talking with your good friends who are the same sex as you. The conversation is flowing effortlessly. You are laughing together and listening together. The mood is free and easy.

    Suddenly, an extremely attractive person of the opposite sex walks into the room. The energy shifts. The conversation halts for a moment and then begins again, a bit more choppy, a bit contrived. You feel slightly self-conscious. And you are aware of him or her, the attractive one whose mere presence in the room has shifted the energy. This is the force of sexual polarity.

    We are affected by sexual polarity from head to toe. Our minds become simple in the midst of a loving embrace and our thoughts are triggered to race by the inviting eyes of a stranger. Our heartbeat, skin temperature and posture are also affected by sexual polarity.

    Notice the shifts in your body the next time you are standing face to face with a highly interesting other. Merely imagining his or her eyes lingering on your body causes a shift in blood flow, breathing and muscle tone.

    INTIMATE COMMUNION IS NOT ABOUT ROMANCE

    To prepare for the practice of Intimate Communion, we must understand that love, romance and sexual polarity are not the same. You can love anyone. You can love everyone. You can love a mountain or a flower, a painting or a stuffed animal. Love is simply when you open your heart. In love, you allow yourself to relax your sense of separation, so that you become one with whomever or whatever you are contemplating, whether a child, a lover or the Grand Canyon. Love is unity, openness to the point of oneness, ultimately. And there is no limit to the number of people, things or places you can love.

    Romance is an exclusive feeling. The main feeling in romantic infatuation is, “Finally, here is the person I have been waiting for all my life.” You feel a deep sense of familiarity with this special person. Most people only feel this way with one person, or maybe several people throughout their lives. Whereas love is the action of opening your heart, romance is the less-common feeling of familiarity and “at-homeness” you feel with the special person in your life. And, inevitably, while loving only increases loving, romance often ends in disappointment when your special partner begins to irritate you or frustrate your desire for love more than anyone else in your life.

    Sexual polarity is an arc of energy that flows between two people. It could happen in the grocery store with a person you don’t even know, let alone love. It is a flow of energy that runs through your body, mind and emotions, and you might experience it many times a day-at work, on the street or at home.

    There are two main threads to the practice of Intimate Communion. The most important one is the practice of love itself: the conscious practice of opening our hearts and feeling through our obstructions to loving in every moment. The secondary practice is the conscious and artful use of the force of sexual polarity in the transmission of love. In the practice of Intimate Communion, the sex act itself can become a spiritual union, a communication of the force of life and love, a passionate transmission of openness and ecstasy. Whether sexual polarity is practiced or not, Intimate Communion is about relaxing more and more into perfect coincidence with love, surrendering our fears and resistances. To be freely open even in the midst of fear involves a moment-to-moment discipline of loving. To be free and loving is the ultimate discipline-and this is the practice of Intimate Communion.”

  33. Rollo you fucking with the wordpress layout or something?

    When that text is in this box it’s properly spaced into paragraphs with line breaks etc but after I hit post, BOOM, wall of text.

    WAT DO??

  34. Ok that worked lol breaking this down into chunks then:

    @Black Pill
    lol don’t sweat it. You’re in a way better spot compared to a lot of guys. My main wingman and I are mid-30s and we’re gaming young chicks lol Girls love older men these days.

    (didn’t notice your FR till after I wrote this so you can just skim this next part but it’s more applicable to general frustrated newbies more than you specifically, I make more direct notes to you below):

    “I have approached a good 100 women who have given me IOIs without it going further than maybe a kiss”

    Write Field Reports so we can see why it’s not going further than a kiss. Literally that’s the solution lol Like, we need to know what sort of stuff you’re doing to be able to go “ok this is where you dropped the ball, next time do XYZ”

    “and I am starting to lose confidence, because nothing ever goes anywhere”

    Nothing “goes anywhere”, that’s passive. You have to TAKE/LEAD things somewhere, which is where structure (like Mystery Method) comes in. 😉

    As Scribblerg says: “You sound like you are just kind of winging it when it comes to pickup and actual gaming of women. For me, buckling down and studying mystery method and running structured sets with a method to my madness was a huge stop forward”

    Exactly this. It sounds like you’ve mainly had Manosphere influences which are okay for getting some basic mindsets down but you still don’t have any CONTROL out there in your interactions. It sounds like you’re just hoping something happens. Field Reports help us narrow down “okay here is where you should’ve led her to isolation bla bla” I recommend you check out Mystery Method so you can start adding proper structure into your game to get you from having an interaction to having her in your apartment wanting to bone.

    You can still get results doing what you’re doing, but they’ll be inconsistent and frustrating and you’ll miss opportunities that you KNOW you “should’ve” gotten but didn’t know what to do to make it happen. It’s like a feeling of helplessness, a leaf blowing in the wind type shit. You want to MAKE shit happen, and that comes from structure and purposely leading things toward your goal.

    “For some reason all my friends who are in relationships, their wives are interested in me, and some have come onto me really hard.”

    Because most monoLTRs are boring lol

    “Eventually it turned out that one couple were literal swingers and I ended up fucking his wife a few weeks ago.. so none of this makes any fucking sense to me.”

    lolol could turn into drama so be careful with that one.

    “Next day I whatsapp her telling her I hope she didnt get in shit. Turns out her dad warned her about older guys, and that was that. Next time I saw her she’d gotten back together with her ex bf (who came across as beta as fuck), who she isnt sleeping with.”

    Nothing you could’ve really done here, just bad luck/timing on your part. You could’ve banged her before taking her back to her dad but that’s about it. Everything you did up to that point was fine. You could try to use Boyfriend Destroyers on her BF but it can be a long process. If she works there again just focus on flirting/teasing, giving her good emotions, laser eye-contact, etc and offer her a ride home or whatever and try escalating.

    (here’s some direct advice after reading your FR, which is why they’re important, I can tell from your FR whereabouts you are with game and what sticking points you’re likely to have etc):

    “It’s not like I am an outright failure”

    Your game is fine, first off lol You’re getting enough Attraction to get the girls so I wouldn’t even have you go spend time on Mystery Method now that I’ve read your FR, ’cause your problems sound like they’re coming down more to handling logistics than anything and you’re running into flakey txt shit (like girls making a plan for a picnic a week later, by the time that day arrives she’s got 100 other offers on the table…in the MOMENT she really wanted to do a picnic, but if you just number close you’re still usually just “some guy” a week later…it was different 5-10 years ago, but they’re just bombarded with options and attention these days). Was there a reason you couldn’t just stick with the Polish girl and try for the actual pull to sex? Even if there was, you also could’ve had the conversation over the phone via voice (where she can hear your tonality and you have her full attention and can hear immediate feedback/responses to calibrate to etc etc) rather than trying to game via a txt conversation.

    That’s the big takeaway in 2016, same as hank is figuring out: don’t try to game over txt. Avoid number closing in favor of the same night lay if you can, and if you can’t then just use txt as a way to get to a voice call where you can run better game. EVERY guy is trying to game via txt these days.

    “That second one she was really into me, had the deer in headlights look when I talked to her. This is what I find confusing. My text game may be way crap, and may show up the age gap, but I try keep it short, curt, and cocky, so I dunno.”

    Try phone calls instead (shoot a txt so when she responds you know you have her attention and then just call her and if she doesn’t pick up tease her about being shy in txt). Or ideally focus on the Same Night Lay. Flaking is at an all-time high in 2016, so you want to capitalize on the attraction while you have it. If you DO have to get a number, try HARD Time-Bridging (check out Julien’s PIMP product (get it by whatever means wink wink), specifically the section on Closing and how he does his number closes (and the infield with the pornstar chick where he Time Bridges EXACT specific plans with her for the next day, for like 20 minutes lol)) for a meetup within 48 hours. Like if you DO have to separate from her, you want to get back into an interaction with her within 48 hours, while she’s still feeling the attraction she had for you…past that you’re looking at a much higher flake rate. Like if you HAVE to take her number, do a hard Time Bridge (again watch that Julien infield, all his push/pull and disqualifying about like “don’t say yes if you’re one of those ditzy girls that makes a bunch of plans but flakes” etc lol) and push for coffee the next afternoon, like you meet her Friday night, push a Time Bridge for coffee Saturday afternoon (she may have plans for Saturday night already but you can bang her in the daytime just as much as at night lol).

    Ignore my recommendation for Mystery Method, your FR shows that you’re already doing that stuff fine. Instead just go get Julien’s PIMP product (by whatever means wink wink) and watch the entire section on Closing (there’s like 4 vids in it), and specifically watch the infield that starts with him on the dance floor telling a girl he has a sword (he’s carrying a balloon sword or something).

    Pay attention to when he gets her isolated in the corner, watch the whole thing from that point on and notice how much he goes back to his Time Bridging the coffee date. He’ll talk about other stuff and then go back to it, over and over, and get her to participate in defining and repeating the plans over and over etc. Combine that with meeting up within 48 hours and you should get less flakes…but ideally, like Julien describes in the Closing section (and demonstrates in his infield, like with the girl on the sidewalk in the daytime in the PIMP infield), always try for the actual pull even if it seems crazy to try for it (“but she’s with her friends”, figure out how to disarm them, “but she lives far away”, offer to drive her home, “but her dad is txting”, give her an excuse to tell him for why she’ll be a few min late and try to escalate, etc etc think of it like problem-solving lol)

    Spend the 2-3 hours it’ll take to watch the Julien PIMP stuff I recommend and you should be able to tighten your end/logistical game up.

    “Would be nice to just have one win to give me some confidence.”

    If it helps your game in general sounds just fine. You’re just running into endgame issues. It’s like you have a racecar with just one blown tire instead of a piece of shit car that’s broken and mangled and needs a complete overhaul lol Fix that tire and you’ll be cruising along just fine. 🙂

    And if you want to take up some super interesting hobby, go for it, but that super interesting hobby isn’t going to make girls not flake on you or make her whip her panties off when her dad txts her or make her stick around after a kiss etc lol those are external/logistical hurdles that there are external game solutions for.

    “so I get the fatty cockblock”

    GOTTA befriend the friends in that situation (fat girl hot girl combos). That fatty is your wingman for you to get her friend if you can win her over. Mystery Method Group Theory stuff for this one. Also consider that 3-sets might be easier for you than 2-sets, because in a 3-set the fatty has someone to talk to…in a 2-set, the fatty is stuck not having fun or you have to engage her and juggle more shit.

    “Also there are more, and younger, guys with game, so competition is more intense, bitch shields are up and activated.”

    Try merging sets:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fwlgN4378k

    This is an excessive version of it, you don’t have to go THIS extreme with this many people, but if you take a hot girl/ugly girl combo and merge them with another hot girl/ugly girl combo, now you have two hot girls to choose from (and the 2nd one views you as having Preselection just like the girls in this Julien merging video) and the two uggos can talk to eachother and the other hot girl lol Now you can get into a one on one conversation with your girl. You can even bring guys in to entertain the other hot girl and the fatties for you, just keep your girl focused on you (turn her back to the group etc).

    Since you know people at this venue this kind of thing should be easy for you, but note that Julien doesn’t even know the girls he’s introducing to eachother in that clip, even the one he says is his girlfriend isn’t that’s just some girl he’s calling his girlfriend as a playful roleplay.

    “One thing I do is over the course of a night I will approach the hottest single girl I see in a place – I don’t have a strategy per se. Even if it’s a few words I do it, just to avoid pussying out.”

    This is good, keep doing this lol

    “100 approaches does seem a lot to me. Feels like a shitload of rejection.”

    Don’t worry about the amount. Focus on better strategy and solving the logistics of getting them out of the bar and into your bed that night. You live walking distance from this place so like, all the elements are in place and lined up for you to be pulling, you just need to get around this hurdle.

    “An example? Normally I just make them laugh, saying things they don’t expect. I neg them playfully, usually try get them to talk about themselves a bit rather than putting too much pressure on myself to talk. It depends from girl to girl. I’ll never talk alt right stuff, at most I will drop something politically incorrect if its the right girl. I get a lot of appreciative ‘you’re so rudes’. Quite often if its a promo or shooter girl they will end up sitting talking to me half the night instead of working, so I think I am doing something right. Quite often ends up with them initiating kino – sitting with their legs against mine, brushing up on me, hand on forearm etc.”

    This is all just fine. I wouldn’t bother with Mystery Method except for the stuff on Group Theory. But otherwise you’re doing fine, even if you’re just naturally flipping the switches instead of consciously doing it, your problems aren’t in the actual interaction itself or you wouldn’t be getting these kinds of reactions.

    “One thing I am aware of is that I may be coming across as a player. Girls in this city have a fear of being consciously played. I might come across as too slick and confident, which I guess could be a red flag.”

    Merging would also help with this. Imagine if instead of just approaching the hottest single girl, you merged her into a set of hot girl/ugly girl that you were just chilling and joking around with and making laugh, and then introduced them all to eachother THEN focused on that hottest single girl. Now you’re not some sleazy player, you’re a social guy with Preselection.

    Also some disqualifying (disqualifying her or disqualifying yourself) helps avoid the player vibe, ’cause that comes off like you’re trying NOT to get them (Hank Moody in Californication is a great role model of an older man disqualifying himself with self-depreciation and “giving in” to having sex with the girl, VS trying to GET her), like the more she’s chasing you (because you disqualify her or yourself), the less she feels like you’re just a player and she’s prey.

    But I would focus on the PIMP stuff I recommend first ’cause even if you can get them more attracted to you, if you can’t get them out of the bar and into your bed that night you’re going to run into the same hurdles.

    “Honestly, I don’t know what my SMV is or how they see me anymore.”

    Don’t think about it. You’re fine lol

    “But at the same time, when it leads nowhere my overall confidence takes a dip, and I lose that sense of having SMV, which kindof compounds the after effects of seeing a 6 year long LTR go to shit and have my ex do the classic cold walk out on me like my SMV was zero. At this point because I havent had a gf for so long I struggle to feel like I am worth anything.”

    A buddy of mine is dealing with exactly this (similar age and time-frame on his LTR too, and similar ending to it) and is hitting the field slowly dragging himself out of his depression and self-esteem issues over it. You already know how/why you feel this way (being used to having external validation and then having it taken away and not being able to get it again etc) so there’s not much point psycho-analyzing it. Just grab PIMP and watch those sections and work on your end game and you’ll be fine lol

    “Increased competition means the majority of guys go to gym, are well groomed, shredded etc. Lots of good looking single guys around, women pretty much have their pick.”

    Perfect. Merge a hot girl/ugly girl combo with another hot girl/ugly girl combo, and then merge in a couple of these well groomed shredded dudes to entertain the fatties (pick some beta guys who will be too nice to be rude and not interact with them, then the fatties love you ’cause you handed them some dudes) and let them fight over the other hot girl, while you focus on isolation with one of the hot girls. 🙂 Just by being the social connector that introduces everyone and being able to spike girls emotions you should be able to come off cooler than the other guys.

  35. @Culum Struan
    “But I was thinking about it yesterday and I realised I KNOW I’m going to have that breakthrough. I know I’m gonna do it – there’s no doubt. It’s not an “if”.”

    This. Just go out. If you skip the gym or go to the gym and don’t lift anything, you won’t build muscle. But if you go to the gym and lift, you’ll build muscle over time. It’s just how the process works. Just write your Field Reports so you can narrow down where you need to tighten your shit up and keep going out putting yourself around women and in interactions with them. If you have an off night where you feel like shit, cool, sit and chill at a bar and sip a beer and have some bar food, at least you’re out. Even nights like that you eventually get bored and often end up opening just because sitting there by yourself is boring lol Try not taking your phone with you so you can’t throw yourself into surfing the net on it while you eat that burger.

    Remember this is supposed to be FUN lol

    “Of course the risk with this approach is that I can be so laid-back I can be at home watching Netflix instead of being out because “that’s what I want””

    This is the trap lol That’s why my paragraph above stresses STILL GOING OUT even if your goal is “to just stand in a corner being creepy all night” or “to sit at the bar and eat a burger and kill time till last call” etc

    “and I’m not gonna do that (for a start it ISN’T what I want in the long term).”

    Right. Going to the movies by yourself is fun, but your sex drive will come raging back if you don’t get laid for a bit or do no-fap for a bit, and then you’ll want company. Pretending that won’t happen is silly. But you don’t have to force it…put yourself in environments where the POTENTIAL is there and then chill.

    Also look at chill nights out as warmups for the next night out. Like “ok tonight I’m just going to be out around some chaos, I’ll go stand in this scary environment with all these hot unattainable girls and BE an awkward chode, whatever, because this will be scary but TOMORROW when I go to this LESS crazy venue, I’ll feel more confident because I went out tonight, even if I didn’t do anything”.

    Your problem isn’t that you need to do 100 approaches a night or anything. You already have most of the skillset. You need length of time in set over number of sets now.

    Also understand that THIS IS ALL PART OF THE PROCESS lol A lot of guys who don’t teach newbies will chime in going “now you finally understand” because they don’t understand that to get TO this point you have to go through the stuff you went through, and that the solution for this point will lead to another plateau and more solutions etc etc The game is about making it up the mountain, plateauing and sometimes even falling down the other side a bit, then finally being able to see that there’s an even higher mountain on that other side that you didn’t even realize was there, and then climbing that, and feeling that rush of excitement and love of the game again, then you plateau on that one, rinse and repeat over and over.

    So this is a totally normal stage you’re going through. And the solution for it is what you think it is: go into social environments but stop “trying”, just be chill/social without any real goals or rules in mind for a while.

    The thing that guys who don’t teach newbies don’t get is that if I tell you “just go out and don’t TRY” BEFORE you get to this plateau, you will 1) end up not learning the stuff you needed to learn because you’d be avoiding interactions that you needed to get you here, and 2) not get to this plateau until way further down the road and be further away from getting PAST the plateau onto the next mountain. So giving you that advice 6 months or a year ago would hinder you, whereas now when you can feel the frustration of the plateau, NOW it’s time to switch those gears up.

    But now you’re gonna get swarmed with the “FINALLY you understand our super deep message that PUAs totally don’t understand, just be DPA bro just don’t think just get a bunch of hobbies and then go out and let the mystical energy flow through you and PUSSY WILL FALL FROM THE SKY BRO” guys lol And you’re free to do any of that. But there are no hot girls in the forest where you’re cutting down trees like an OMG-Approved manly man lol You know where the girls are and you know that you’ll have to take action to get them. There’s a reason every single one of the “pussy will fall from the sky if you’re on your purpose bro” guys’ Field Reports involve them being around hot girls and actually taking action lol

    And they don’t get that sure you’ll listen to their alpha wave brain thought loop mp3s and go stand and feel your energy in a forest for a while, but WHEN that doesn’t get you laid, you’ll come back to pro-actively approaching, but you’ll have passed some internal hurdles that make it more potent. And then you’ll become an approach machine and plateau and go back to the forest except you’ll have better unconscious externals and subcomms etc from your approaching, and back and forth back and forth.

    This is what I was trying to explain to Rollo. It’s not one or the other. You can get laid with just the externals, but the externals help build the internals, and then the internals help build the externals, rinse and repeat over and over. This is the process. But you START with externals because it’s a lot easier to get you to remember not to lean in when you talk than it is to get your brain to believe women will respond positively to you when I put a girl in front of you because it wants PROOF not PROMISES and the smile you get when you remember not to lean in or you say that DHV etc will help build that internal “ohh, maybe I CAN get girls to enjoy interacting with me hmmm…” and the ping-pong game of internals and externals heading toward mastery begins.

    And like Walawala says “There comes a point in every PUA’s development where the push to get another notch starts to taper off and you begin to focus on what you want, higher quality and not being such an approach machine.”

    The thing is you will go back to being an approach machine down the road too lol but you’ll have better internal mindsets when you do it because you went through this plateau. And then down the road from there you’ll plateau again and go back to not trying but with better externals, etc etc these aren’t signs that you’re fucking up or anything, it’s just the natural ebb and flow of learning game. Don’t judge yourself for these things, just accept them as part of the process. This is a life long thing you’re doing, you can spend a couple weeks just chilling in venues. If you fall too far into being too passive, your dick will remind you that you want to get laid lol

    “Keep going until you are ready to just be, to coast and to know you don’t have to bang the 6 just because she said “hi” to you.”

    lol I screen SO fucking hard. Guys would be surprised because I think most guys picture PUAs as just going for whatever’s receptive (because that’s what most guys do). I turn down a LOT of opportunities, but I turn them down because in the past I TOOK them and learned what I needed to learn by doing that lol And I have limited free time right now, so I don’t want to spend the little free time I DO have with girls that I don’t enjoy being around.

    @Black Pill
    “In future I will just treat that as a shit test. Any suggestions welcome – I can’t just defer the question with a joke, have tried this and they are persistent, had one girl ask me 20+ times.”

    Defer with a joke, then “Agree & Amplify”. “Waaaaay too old for YOU. (silence and stare, maybe look her down & up)” “lololz no really how old are you??” “How old do you think?” “20-whatever?” “wow I love you.” “lolol c’mon how old are you??” “37. (said CONFIDENTLY with sexual laser eye-contact (Liam Macrae on YouTube “Rapid Escalation”), like being an older man is BETTER to you and like YOU might disqualify HER for being too YOUNG) You could practically be my daughter, what are you 18? Did you sneak in here with a fake ID?” etc etc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a88SnRrEcKI&t=1m40s

    Skip to these timestamps:

    1:40 – Tyler opens and pulls her into isolation ASAP, laser eye-contact and does a playful roleplay

    Then skip to 8:00 – Note how he even initiates the age conversation (Tyler is 33 in this clip, he’s 37 like you now) but he does it as if HE’S qualifying HER like “Don’t lie to me to try to impress me, tell me the TRUTH so I can screen you out for being too young because young girls are dumb” Then he can freely tell her his age because he’s already build enough attraction that she doesn’t care about his age and he can even make jokes about her having to call him daddy and shit fully rubbing their age difference in her face. HE thinks the age difference is funny and high-value, he doesn’t view himself as low value for being too old, so the girls generally don’t feel that way either.

    Polish girl didn’t care about your age when you were interacting in person. She cared about it after she lost the attraction you were making her feel in-person and you were in a boring text conversation…which is why a voice call might be better, it’s easier to spark attraction again, but both are less optimal than just trying for the pull that night lol

    “Generally I find the more rapport I have with them the less they care or seem interested, but in many cases where I get numbers I get asked that the next day. So if I have to bridge it to another day, that’s where the vulnerability comes in. ”

    ’cause the next day she’s in a different emotional state than you were making her feel when you were in front of her engaging her emotions directly, where she didn’t care. The next day she’s in who knows what state, so you’re more likely to get her trying to qualify you. In 2005 you could meet a girl and she’d still remember you and how she felt with you for a week or two after, that’s why we used to wait a couple days before calling etc. But now her phone at 2am has like 50 txts on it in 10+ different conversations, tons of dudes, same thing with all day Saturday as guys try to get her attention and friends bring her drama etc etc

    I can’t quite tell if you’re insecure about your age or if you just are annoyed that it’s seeming to cockblock you, but if you WERE insecure about it (especially if you’re macking girls in their 20s) that would be TOTALLY NORMAL, you just got out of a 6 year LTR and are back in the field where the young dudes beside you are doing tequila shots, maybe you even used to BE like them when you were their age etc. Like don’t sweat it if you DO feel insecure (but you might not, I can’t tell from your writing).

    If you ARE a bit like “ah she’s not gonna like me, I’m way too old for her”, the best cure for any insecurity is to shove it in your face until you don’t care about it anymore lol If I was with you I would take you to a nightclub full of young chicks and have YOU start the age conversation with them and try to disqualify them as being “too young” like you’re looking for a mature responsible woman not some ditzy bar chick etc till you can get them qualifying themselves to you (“I’m not THAT young!!” “my ex was 34!!” etc).

    Also I get where the “do a million approaches” guys are coming from, but for you and your situation I wouldn’t even worry that much about it. Try merging and tighten up your end game and you should do fine. Your problem is more logistical hurdles than anything attraction-based, you’re already getting lots of attraction. But lots of attraction doesn’t mean she doesn’t still have to drive her drunk girlfriend home because she’s staying at her place and she lives 90 minutes outside the city and she needs you to solve that dilemma for her lol

    That’s not to say you CAN’T approach a bunch more, or that you won’t learn anything from it. Feel free to do it. But you can do a lot more with your current style of going out to make it more potent. Like you can mix the ingredients you already have better to make a better tasting cake, you don’t necessarily need to go buy new ingredients. You can merge groups and Time Bridge harder etc without leaving a bar stool lol

    @hank holiday @Culum Struan
    “well, you don’t always have to be spam approaching, but you do have to always be pushing boundaries. otherwise you will make no progress and stagnate. so you must always have goals and always be pushing for them.”

    This is technically right but it’s okay to tell him NOT to set any goals or try to push his boundaries because once he spends a week or two NOT doing anything infield his brain will go “ok but seriously, let’s just talk to this girl beside us, how about that?” and he’ll start setting goals again lol

    Also he can set non-approach based goals…ie – a goal could be to keep a conversation going for half an hour, it can be a conversation at all, or disagree with a girl for the first 5 minutes about anything she says etc, VS “approach 50 girls and get a makeout or you’re worthless”, like low energy low stakes simple goals that don’t put massive outcome dependent pressure on him.

    “you need a more of a stack. and also other random dhvs you can just drop in there as things come up.”

    The problem is the online date is meeting up with him with some A2 that he’s built up over messages (she has to be SOME kind of potential green light or she wouldn’t be coming out to meet up with him) so he’s comfortable in that situation…but with a girl he’s just met, his brain is like “but we can’t just pretend this is an online date, I don’t have 2 weeks of messaging her or anything, I only have 5 minutes of flirting with her”

    A stack can help bridge this gap because it’s like “ok no matter what, if she gives me some iois then I’ll just say “it’s loud over here let’s go sit” and take her hand and lead her over there and then I’ll say that thing I say at the start of all my online dates” etc etc like, even that counts as a stack. It’s just a gameplan of shit to execute when your brain isn’t cooperating with you.

    It’s funny because this is techncially an easy problem to solve, like if I was out with Culum and we opened a 2-set, I would just lead us all to a table and turn mine so that I’m isolated in conversation with her and he would know “okay YaReally is going to handle the friend for a while so I have a solid half hour to kill with this girl” and he would just find that he’s IN an online date situation, sitting and talking to a girl just like he’s done a million times before and he’d be like “oh, I guess it’s really the same thing, it just FELT different”.

    But having to do it himself, after years of online stuff, his brain is probably having trouble going from “open her and get her laughing” to “feel like I’m in an online date situation where I can comfortably execute all my online date stuff”

  36. @Blaximus
    “Guys, correct me if I’m wrong, but I see the age question as an ioi in itself.”

    Technically yes and it’s best to view it that way (because it helps you pass the shit-test), since it means she’s picturing in her head the possiblity of you two being together in some way, otherwise it wouldn’t be relevant.

    But on a deep technical nuance level, the age question after you have A2 (female to male interest, aka she’s attracted to you) is seeking rapport whereas the age question before you have A2 is more of a shit-test/disqualifier. In both cases she’s thinking “could we be together” but BEFORE you have A2 she’s looking for reasons NOT to be together, whereas AFTER A2 she’s looking for reasons to BE together. Either way though, pass the shit-test right and you can spark attraction, so mentally framing it as always an ioi is best.

    @SJF
    “What about pre-selection, and social proof, rather than sniping?”

    You got it. See I can give props when you’re right about something that holds up infield lol

    @scribblerg
    “@YaReally – Credit where credit is due. I used to be so self-conscious about my age but now it’s like whatever…It’s an opening for me now, lol. All due to YaReally and other men’s coaching from right here.”

    All I do is report from the field. The only reason I know the age stuff is irrelevant (just like the looks and money stuff) is because PUAs (like Tyler in that clip I just linked), my buddies, myself, etc, have all purposely pushed those limits to test that shit and see where the real boundaries are. Turns out there pretty much aren’t any lol Go out infield enough and push the boundaries enough and you’ll see the same things we see and realize “oh…I get what YaReally was talking about now” lol

    My goal is just to help more and more guys see their inherent value and get the results they want out of the game. You could’ve let your age hold you back and no one in the Blue Pill world or even parts of the Manosphere would have judged you for it. They’d say “ya man, gaming is way harder when you’re old, you should go on OKCupid dates with 40yos and offer them an allowance or go to Eastern Europe”.

    But you chose to go out and push your comfort zone and push your limits and now you see what we see. 🙂

    And more importantly, you see how much potential you still have to live an awesome life even as an old dude who got burned hard and had to start over from scratch at an age where most guys would give up. Regardless of anyone’s feelings on President Trump (lolol wtf world are we living in, I love it), that dude is fucking *70* and has the energy of a 25yo (probably from not drinking or doing drugs), he was doing like 5 rallies a day in multiple states etc at the END of his campaign when he should be the MOST tired, and he isn’t even in good physical shape. Imagine if he did a few pushups or laid off the carbs a bit, even at 70 he probably wouldn’t have much problem getting laid. You’re only in your 50s, you could fit my entire pickup career, every pickup-related adventure I’ve ever been on, between your current age and 70 lol

    Just take care of your health so you can enjoy it instead of spending 20 years in a nursing home instead of with girls curled up in a hammock watching the stars with you lol

    “@Black Pill – One more tip. The age question also invites the conversation about the young guys she’s got floating around her, her orbiters. Get her to tell you about young beta guys who supplicate to her and how pathetic they seem to her. Talk about how young men these days are etc. She will pile on and maybe even start showing you her phone. Be the guy “who just gets it”.”

    This. Bigly. It also helps you learn how lame most of your competition is, which helps in terms of confidence lol

    “Thanks guys. In having this conversation I realized it is me taking a shit test to the next level because I am so aware I am hitting 40 next year.”

    lol ya when I turned 30 I went through the same thing. In my 20s I legit thought 30+ was over and done with. That was “old” and I better settle down or something before then because no way a guy in his 30s can still get hot young girls. Turns out I was wrong lol Most of the oldschool PUA instructors are in their late 30s now and doing just fine.

    When I turned 30 I was hanging with younger dudes who would take me to young venues (’cause of course they wanted to go there, not go to some “old people bar” like I felt like I should maybe start going to), and I felt insecure and self-conscious until I forced myself to just start bringing up our age difference in every conversation with every girl lol That’s where I learned that most of them love older men and/or have been with older men and/or just don’t give a shit and/or feel like *I* might disqualify THEM for being too young for me to want to waste my time on lol THAT was a mindfuck and a half. Now I literally tell girls “I have a DECADE on you. Think about that. That’s TEN YEARS. Do you even know what (something from the 80s, as if everything from back in my generation was the best and SHE’S lame for not knowing about it) is? Tsk tsk I didn’t think so, you can go now.” just to purposely drill in my age because it’s self-amusing to me now lol

    Now I would WAY rather be mid-30s than mid-20s. When I go to those same venues (yup still going to them lol and still doing just fine), I look around at the guys in their 20s and they’re all just squirrels bouncing around with no old man oak tree groundedness to them. No authority or dominance etc They fall into girls frames so easily and are just living fully in reaction to everything around them. But girls aren’t looking for more female energy lol

    Click here for more on the difference between cooler older men and chodes lol:

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/work-on-your-personality/#comment-574707

    @Zhu Wunang
    Solid response to Black Pill on qualifications and the difference between actual ones and ones that are just going to be funny and spike her emotions. I do a lot of playing up the age difference from the frame of they’re silly young girls who don’t know anything about the world and I’m way more mature and wise than them and everything from my generation was better etc. Hank Moody from Californication is a good role model of an older man interacting with younger women but viewing THEM as immature/silly and viewing himself as awesome, instead of viewing himself as too old or low-value and viewing THEM as the prize…in Hank’s frame it’s like the younger girls are an inconvenience/hassle to him but he’ll LET them fuck him if he HAS to, etc

    Also generally a guy has to start with the token disqualifications (making fun of her for being too young or not knowing how to cook etc) because before he’s laid a bunch of girls he doesn’t REALLY know what he does/doesn’t like. He might have some general ideas from previous relationships but he doesn’t really know himself well yet. He needs to be with a bunch of girls to learn “okay THESE are things I want in a girl and THESE are things I don’t care if a girl has and THESE are absolute deal-breakers”, and those things will be specific to him, his goals, the lifestyle he wants/has, etc Like right now based on my lifestyle (working a shitload) I have to screen out certain girls that, 10 years from now (when I have way more free time), I might not screen out. And vice-versa, some girls that pass my screening now and fit into my current lifestyle, I might screen out 10 years from now. But I’ve been with enough girls to know what type of things do and don’t work for me and whatever shape my lifestyle takes on. A guy just getting back out there will need some time to figure that stuff out.

    @theasdgamer
    “Does getting laid over a thousand times with one woman count for anything or does it have to be with multiple women?”

    10:45:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOWdKbSV-JE&t=10m45s

    @Blaximus
    “A chick could bone all day long, but that’s no indicator of her mental state wrt to you. Guys seem to miss this completely, talking about ” attraction ” and what not”

    No, you just don’t understand that we GET this shit lol This is what Mystery Method teaches guys to get. You keep thinking it’s some high-level thing the same way girls think attraction is some high-level thing. It’s been codified and isn’t as hard to get as people think, and yes that’s talking about the mental state not just boning her.

    The longer you assume no one but OMGs can possibly understand this amazing thing you think is unexplainable high-level shit that none of us silly PUAs could ever experience, the longer we’ll keep having these back and forths lol

    “But, guys will believe what they want. It’s just that if dudes can believe in pick up, they should be able to understand this.”

    This “Deep conversion” is LITERALLY WHAT PICKUP TEACHES lol Deep conversion is just seduction done PROPERLY. This is why it’s retarded to give it a new name, it just muddies the waters.

    And there’s no permanant deep connection. Your wife WILL lose attraction if you become a beta chode for too long. At best a high level of attraction (aka “Deep conversion”) will give you a small buffer, and/or if you have a lifelong investment with her she might stay out of obligation, but Attraction is not a choice, her mind will be wandering. She can’t shut off her Hypergamy.

    It’s literally just proper seduction done right lol nothing special no matter how much you guys want to believe it is, just like attraction is nothing special, it’s just flipping the right switches, no matter how much girls want to believe it is.

    @Sentient
    “Yet Deep Conversion is an impossible concept…”

    It’s NOT an impossible concept. It’s literally just SEDUCTION. The thing we’ve been teaching forever lol It’s what guys are supposed to be learning how to DO, it’s ENTIRELY POSSIBLE lol

    What’s impossible is converting a girl to where she’ll stay attracted when you’re no longer triggering her Hypergamy and she has better options triggering it.

  37. @Culum Struan
    “Good vibes and subcomms..what do I *DO*?”

    If you’re going to wing it without routines (and I get what you’re saying about them feeling stilted to you and whatever), then put your main focus on self-amusing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4zhbqj9WFU

    Ignore the actual words he’s saying about the period stuff in this next clip lol in the actual TenGame infield this is clipped from, after this part he explains “DON’T use my style of humor…don’t say these things, these are just the things that are funny to ME and make ME laugh, you’ll have a DIFFERENT sense of humor and DIFFERENT things that make you laugh, it’s not WHAT I’m saying it’s the fact that it’s making MYSELF have good emotions”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NZwHxYl3A4

    When you’re self-amusing your brain will connect dots and come up with things to say that it doesn’t do when you’re talking about something that isn’t self-amusing to you. Like if I say a routine someone else gives me, it’s not very fun for me so Julien talks about this a LOT these days. And he stresses in his TenGame infield to NOT say the WORDS he’s saying (’cause he says fucked up stuff), focus on the emotions it’s giving HIM, THAT’S what the girl is responding to, regardless of HOW he makes himself feel good emotions.

    Like one of my buddy’s has certain things he thinks are HILARIOUS (like saying cheesy pickup lines or pretending to be lamer than he is), that don’t do ANYTHING for me, but when he even TALKS about them or I even SUGGEST something along those lines, he starts smiling and is already internally laughing to himself. So when he does that stuff with girls, they love him. Whereas I don’t get off on it so if I do it they blow me out, but I have my OWN things that I instinctively smile at (deadpan humor, making shit up and seeing how far I can exaggerate it before they realize I’m fucking with them, making gay jokes with my wingman, etc). Both of us are WAY tamer than Julien’s period jokes, but we feel the same as he does when we poke our personal self-amusing buttons and the girls respond to that.

    If you watch Julien’s face, even when he’s playing footage for the students and he cuts back from something he’s said, he INSTINCTIVELY starts to smile and feel good emotions. Like in the Julien & Luke Devil’s Threeway video above, watch Julien’s face as soon as the student says “like…uhhh, incest?” Julien INSTINCTIVELY can’t help but chuckle to himself at that. Because it’s a trigger for him, personally.

    I don’t even need routines based around “making shit up and exaggerating it” or “making gay jokes”, those will just COME to me once I start because once I’m tapping into what’s self-amusing to ME, my brain goes “this feels good, so I want to do more of this so here’s more stuff to say that will result in more of this good feeling”, VS if I’m saying shit that isn’t self-amusing to me, where I gotta plan it out or have routines for it because my brain is like “what is THIS? This isn’t FUN…I dunno where to take THIS shit” and it fizzles. But if I’m self-amusing my brain will just connect dots for me and spit out gold because I’m making it feel good by doing those specific things it likes. These will be different for every guy but you’ll be able to figure out what consistently makes you laugh inside your head when you think back to your interactions.

    The trick with self-amusement is that even if the girl blows you out, you’re pumping your own state and good feelings, so you don’t CARE if she leaves. Like the period chick he says to the audience “Does it look like I care if she walks away? Would my night be worse if she walked off? No I wouldn’t care because I’m just making myself have fun and laugh, VS if I’m TAKING value where I’m trying to GET something and she walks off and I feel that “aghhh dammit!!” feeling”

    You can do 50 approaches and if none of it is self-amusing to you, you don’t feel great unless you get some good reactions. But if you’re self-amusing, you can do 5 approaches and they can all BOMB but you end up being in state because you were saying and doing things that were fun to you and put you in a good state.

    Most guys have NO IDEA what makes them laugh lol Because why would they, they’ve never had to think about it and narrow it down.

    (highly recommend the infield in TenGame btw, there’s a TON of great content in his breakdowns of his footage, he’s better than he was in PIMP, grab TenGame’s infield however you can wink wink lol)

    @hank holiday
    “okay so got to work on a girl working at check out”

    That was solid shit. That could’ve just been a normal boring interaction or you could’ve just stood there while she fixes the situation. By teasing her you turned the whole thing into an actual interaction where she’ll remember you.

    @N1
    “My limited experience in this suggests that with a 2-set you really need a wingman, otherwise you end up getting activley/passivly cockblocked.”

    A 3-set is easier solo than a 2-set because in a 3-set 2 of the girls can entertain eachother while you focus on one of them (win them all over of course though lol). In a 2-set you gotta juggle more shit comin at ya or risk the 2nd girl feeling left out and cockblocking so if I’m solo and have to run a 2-set I’ll usually try to bring in some random dude to talk to the friend. Most guys are happy to be introduced to a girl even if they won’t do anything amazing I just need them to bore her while I get time to build a connection with my target.

    @Zhu Wunang
    “You are trying to describe something that is very real to you, for which we have confirmation from the other OMGs and the guys in your social circle that it exists (so we know it’s not a hallucination”

    The only part of it that’s a hallucination is the idea that it overcomes Hypergamy. Getting a really deep connection with a girl is just what you’re supposed to be DOING if you follow MM and run a proper seduction lol

    Every single one of these guys’ wives would lose attraction if they stopped triggering their Hypergamy and other guys were triggering it. It’s not a choice, it’s hardwired.

    But they’re doing stuff that they don’t REALIZE is game lol So they lose their job but are still dominant, alpha, pass her shit-tests, confident, etc and go “SEE I LOST MY JOB BUT SHE STAYED WITH ME TILL I GOT A NEW ONE, I BEAT HYPERGAMY WITH MY DEEP CONVERSION”. No, you just don’t understand game lol

    “but is incredibly difficult to describe in such a way that people who have neither seen nor experienced it can understand.”

    Until people understand that we HAVE experienced this shit, it’s literally what Mystery Method was ABOUT, we’ll continue to have these fights. It’s like someone who grew up baking bread from scratch going “you guys these days don’t understand what bread is like” and we’re going “ya we do, we can get it at the grocery store for a few bucks, it’s easy” “No no you don’t understand, bread takes hours and you need these special ingredients I use” “Ya we know, they’re on the ingredients label, we can just churn this shit out with machines now” “but that’s DIFFERENT!!! This is HOMEMADE!!!” “okay then we can order it from a bakery that makes homemade bread” “BUT…But you just don’t understand!!!”

    The hardest part for these guys to accept is that maybe we DO know how to get what they think is special magical and hard to get, and we can do it way faster and easier than they can comprehend because they didn’t get it that fast. And it’s not a big deal to us because it’s what we were leaning about from day 1, so we don’t even CARE about it or actively try to AVOID it, while they’re still thinking “but, but, you can’t get it THAT fast, there’s no way!! *I* couldn’t do it that fast and I’m a boss!!”

    Sorry guys, we are just better educated on the subject. We understand how bread is made and we know the most efficient way to make it and it’s the exact same bread you took a week to gather ingredients and hand-churned the flour (or whatever lol) to make.

    Guys who get replaced with automation in factories probably go through a similar frustration/denial of “but, but, that machine can’t screw the screws onto that car the way a HUMAN can!!” Sorry, it can, and it can even screw it BETTER and more consistently, I know that’s hard to accept but that’s just how it is lol

    “accounts of the benefits of marriage or DC are going to sound like bigfoot Jesus to them.”

    There is simply no benefit that isn’t linked to FI-conditioned beliefs is all. You can believe that that blue shirt makes you more attractive, and you can reap the benefits of confidence and self-assuredness that come with that believe, but that is still a conditioned belief based in nothing…blue shirts are objectively not “more attractive than other shirts”.

    Every benefit can be boiled down to either not holding up under analysis, no longer being consistently/reliably applicable in 2016, or being based in FI-conditioning.

    The scary part to these guys is accepting that maybe we are just THAT fucking smart that we GET their position and we DO understand what they’re talking about and we CAN and HAVE experienced the shit they’ve experienced, but that we’ve done it in a more efficient way, broken it down and codified it and pulled the body apart to clinically name all the parts that make it function, and don’t view it as this special magical shit that their social conditioning has convinced them it is. They keep wanting us to see the beauty and magesty of churning butter when we get the exact same results easier and faster with an automated butter factory(? I don’t know how bread or butter is made lol).

    “However, you also have direct experience that there is something more to DC that is being missed by Yareally’s explanation.”

    This is imaginary fluff. Unless it counters Hypergamy, it’s just “lots of attraction”.

    It’s literally exactly the same as a guy with one-itis explaining how you just don’t understand, HIS girl is SPECIAL, she’s DIFFERENT, what THEY have is MAGICAL, bla bla bla it’s all the same shit lol That guy just really wants to believe that what he has is special. But it’ll follow the exact same rules it always does for everyone. It’s just pizza.

    “You can’t quite explain what it is or how it works in a way that isn’t fairly easy to swat down using current RP/PUA theory.”

    That’s because it ISN’T anything special just like that guy’s one-itis isn’t anything special. They just FEEEEEEEEEL like it’s special because they’re operating on FEEEEEEELZ when they discuss it. That’s why they hate when I clinically pull it apart. Because that’s BAD FEEELZZZZ The exact same way girls feel bad feels when they discover Tyler is teaching nerds how to trigger Attraction…that was supposed to be SPECIAL, it was supposed to “just happen”.

    This is just emotional bullshit from red pill OMGs lol

    “This tells me the RP/PUA model is inadequate to explain ALL of the experiences you have observed.”

    No, their experiences are clouded by emotions the exact same way the one-itis guy thinks we can’t explain his super special connection with his girl.

    “I believe you may be describing something for which the word love might have been perfectly adequate 50 years ago”

    Hypergamy worked 50 years ago exactly how it does now. It’s just that society was different so it was easier to keep Hypergamy triggered (less selection of men, a culture that promoted masculine red pill behavior, lack of instant communication = more dread, etc)

    This shit is just guys letting their FI-conditioned emotions complicate shit that’s very simple and consistent. Muddying the waters and making it confusing for newbies.

    “That means that you guys can’t give up when the discussions get pissy, when you get misunderstood, or even when you get mocked.”

    Does NO ONE see them initiating the snark half the time?? When they get butthurt about someone saying something objective and clinical and they take it as a personal offense and get all condescendingly snarky? And then play the victim? lol This is silly.

    “They’re not going to accept anything that isn’t very well supported, and why should they?”

    We can explain everything they feel just like we can explain everything the one-itis guy feels. But the one-itis guy will stubbornly push back and argue that we can’t possibly know what he feels, just like the OMGs will do the same. It’s all the same shit: guys making emotional arguments that don’t hold up to scrutiny because they’re based in feels not reality.

    “When the YSGs “don’t get it,” consider that a failure of jargon instead of an insult, and use different words.”

    Or consider that we DO “get it”, and we are just THAT MUCH ahead of them lol It’s like they’re saying “but guys guys, look at this really cool bottle rocket” while we’re constructing a rocket for NASA. Ya kid, your bottle rocket is super, we already get it. And the kid is sitting there going WHY AREN’T THEY MORE EXCITED ABOUT MY BOTTLE ROCKET THESE GUYS DON’T UNDERSTAND ROCKET SCIENCE AT ALL!! MY BOTTLE ROCKET IS SPECIAL!!!

    “eventually you will find a way to describe the taste of licorice.”

    We already know what licorice tastes like. I can take any girl I pull in the next month and get licorice if I want it. We’ve codified how to do it. And yes, it’s the same licorice you guys are chewing on, except you were fumbling around in the dark to get the package open while we have a system that lets us open it more efficiently, as much as that crushes your souls to accept lol

  38. @Sentient
    “If it is just, as Yareally keeps bleating on about, the constant treadmill like repetition of hypergamous triggering in real time… you would have no Alpha Widows, spanning decades long absences…”

    As I’ve explained repeatedly, the reason Alpha widows happen is because in that absence the guy can’t fail her shit-tests. Her memory of him stays as that guy who was triggering her Hypergamy. If he stuck around and stopped triggering it, she would lose attraction.

    If that WEREN’T the case then all you would have to do is trigger it once and then you could sit back and be a big beta chode piece of shit that doesn’t trigger Hypergamy and surround her with guys who DO trigger her Hypergamy because hey, you’ve triggered DEEP CONVERSION(TM)(TM) and beat the system! lol

    “you would have to retrigger attraction by all the switch flipping scale sliding actions…”

    No, you lose Hypergamy by failing shit-tests, not by not participating in them or her being able to give them to you. That’s why girls I only see when I pass through their town just assume I’m slaying pussy left and right 24/7 even if we haven’t talked in a year, because that’s the last impression they had of me and I’m still triggering a shitload of Hypergamy for them. Unless I fail a bunch of shit-tests and act like a chode, and then I’ll stop triggering their Hypergamy and they’ll lose attraction.

    Attraction is not a choice. Hypergamy doesn’t care about “DEEP CONVERSION””(TM)(TM) just like it doesn’t care about love or loyalty or honor or that you’re a good father or marriage or monogamy or any of that shit.

    “and anyone who has ever had and old GF who still longs for them knows, you can just start right where things left off…”

    Yes because she remembers you the way you were when she last saw you. FFS dude, how do you miss the point of literally everything I explain when I counter these points ahead of time to try to prevent this shit? I LITERALLY address this alpha widow stuff in my first posts in this thread on it lol

    “there is what you call “burn in” and what Krauser terms Deep Conversion and what others say are Alpha Widows…”

    You’re just muddying the waters like Krauser. This is fucking ridiculous.

  39. Yareally

    she remembers you the way you were

    This concept does not go away when you are with her in the present either… because there is still a pay off to her in remembering you that way…

    The period of Alpha Decay (TM) is far longer than you consider… for a host of differing reasons… [i.e. her having the progeny of That Guy(TM) is one of them… see OP pic]

    Who is zoomin’ who? Or the hamster is an omnivore…

  40. @Sentient
    “she remembers you the way you were”

    “This concept does not go away when you are with her in the present either… because there is still a pay off to her in remembering you that way…”

    Unless you fail a bunch of shit-tests. Otherwise you would be incapable of not being attractive to a girl once she’s “deep converted” even if you started begging for sex and crying about your feelings all the time and quit your job and just laid on the couch and complained 24/7 and asked her permission for everything supplicating 24/7 etc etc

    “The period of Alpha Decay (TM) is far longer than you consider… for a host of differing reasons… [i.e. her having the progeny of That Guy(TM) is one of them… see OP pic]”

    Staying with you does not equal being attracted to you. As I’ve said MULTIPILE TIMES she might stay out of obligation or cut you a slight bit of slack, and if there’s no one better around that triggers her Hypergamy more she might make do, but you won’t beat Hypergamy and she’s GOING to feel a loss of attraction and if someone else comes around that triggers her Hypergamy more, you’re done.

    This shit is hardwired and consistent. “DEEP ATTRACTION ALPHA MAGIC (TM)(TM)” doesn’t circumvent Hypergamy. It’s just what you’re SUPPOSED to be doing and what Mystery Method teaches guys to do. All Krauser did was accidentally run proper game lol

  41. ” if someone else comes around that triggers her Hypergamy more, ”

    Than her burned in memory of YOU, yes…

    But see Any Given Sunday or Kate Upton…

    Time is a bitch to your model…

  42. @sjf

    Think for yourself dude. Deida is just a flawed human being like the rest of us. He’s got a twinge of blue pill in practically everything you quote. Any definition of love is just some combination of different levels of hypergamy, attraction or ego attachment.

  43. @Andy

    “Think for yourself dude.”

    And that is the whole point of the exercise. It is pretty damn easy to strip blue pill thought out of Deida or Athol Kay. Real easy. You should try it.

    Every point in Roissy’s 16 Commandments of Poon re-iterated points made in The Way of the Superior Man sans the blue pill.

    At least he can be positive about interacting with women. I’m an advocate for being positive about what women in the context of “a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus”

    Deida is positive about masculinity (even if his writing sounds gay) and insists that men choose feminine women if they are masculine. And about keeping the sexual polarity of Maculine/Feminine that Deep Attraction is (and that is not LOVE, at ALL). And deep convert them, because you as a man can actively garner deep attraction from women because of understanding who you are as a man and how women operate. He has a huge amount of red pill awareness/knowledge if you actually have a desire to understand it. But you can’t get past his style.

    You think it is a prime sidebar book at MRP Reddit for no good reason? And that sub-reddit is far from being blue pill or purple pill. It is hard core red pill. And that sub-reddit does a great job of putting out posts for relationship Game. With no blue pill tendencies.

    And there is one particular blogger that participates there and has a great red pill blog:

    (read this and show me the blue pill in it)

    https://thefamilyalpha.com/what-is-a-family-alpha/

    The debaters can continue to denigrate Family as a value (for some guys) all they want by trying to make up a definition of what infield is for Old Married Guys who are red pill enthusiasts and call them purple pill. I don’t accept that. My infield is not YaReally’s infield.

    “Any definition of love is just some combination of different levels of hypergamy, attraction or ego attachment.”

    Love is something you do. It is not inherently blue pill. It is not in the same league as Attraction. Attraction and Deep Attraction is actually something different. And they are not even on the same pizza. If you can keep them separate, you won’t get so triggered by the word when it is spoken in the Manosphere among a collection of guys.

  44. “Love is something you do. It is not inherently blue pill.”

    Love has no definition that isn’t blue pill. It is inherently blue pill. The word has a connotation of sentimentality. Call it something else. Call it “deep attraction”, call it appreciation, call it familiarity I don’t care. This is the RATIONAL male. Not the RATIONAL male *except for in cases of old married men where we throw logic out the window and cater to their indescribably special relationships.

  45. ” Love has no definition that isn’t blue pill. It is inherently blue pill. The word has a connotation of sentimentality. Call it something else. Call it “deep attraction”, call it appreciation, call it familiarity I don’t care. This is the RATIONAL male. Not the RATIONAL male *except for in cases of old married men where we throw logic out the window and cater to their indescribably special relationships.”

    Laugh Out Loud

    http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c82f116b14ec94338efcbdc160e63c16a599a826f78adafad34f8deec68fc04b.jpg

  46. @ YaReally….and anyone else interested-

    THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT JEZEBEL WRITES. WHERE AM I?? What happened to this place?? lolol “Oh you don’t want that red pill stuff, that’s just to get laid by drunk bar sluts, if you want a REAL DEEP connection that’s DIFFERENT, it’s MYSTICAL and MAGICAL” No it’s the same shit, just “more” of it lol That’s WHY MMSL recovers marriages. MMSL is making guys do that “achieving the short term goal of pussy” thing on their LTRs and HOLY SHIT it works, because it’s all the same thing lol

    This is a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding of what I stated. I’ve made no such hyperbolized case ever.

    We can just agree to disagree. You are blowing my pov out of proportion and adding all kinds of attributes to it that I’ve not expressed. It proves my original point concerning the subject matter.

    No harsh feelings bro-

  47. Hey Andy,

    “…except for in cases of old married men where we throw logic out the window and cater to their indescribably special relationships.”

    Well then, I guess that depends on what your definition of cater is. (Or what your definition of indescribable is)

    And whose doing the catering on what Infield. Or if you are a Patriologist or a member of the Puerarchy.

    Love, Romance, Sexual Attraction–not the same things. Different flavors of pizza. (you actually didn’t read the Deida distinctions, did you?

    Is Romance a dirty word here too? Why? Because it is un-attainable? Just like red pill love is silly, because only Attraction really matters?

    As Ian Ironwood once commented:

    What the Red Pill man must understand, if he is to have a successful Red Pill marriage, is that romance (ed. otherwise know as married man game) is the essential lubrication that eases the emotional communication involved in mating. Married Game-style romance involves dating your wife, understanding and communicating with your wife, and — perhaps most importantly of all — enjoying your wife. Enjoying her company. Enjoying her conversation. Enjoying hearing her perspective and engaging her intellectually and emotionally. Looking forward to seeing her at the end of the day and appreciating seeing her as the first thing you see every morning. Enjoying your sexual relationship. Enjoying your cultural relationship. Enjoying those interests you have in common and appreciating those interests you have separately. (ed. And enjoying your children who you helped mature into adults. As a Patriologist that is no small component. Just ask an OMG).

  48. @ YaReally and everyone else, especially Newbies reading along-

    Like this nonsense from Blaximus:

    “Problem is, for men that haven’t experienced this, it is inconceivable. Hard to grasp. Impossible to execute.”

    Guess what, we HAVE experienced this shit, it’s NOT inconceivable, it’s NOT hard to grasp, it’s NOT hard to execute. What if instead of looking down on us condescendingly so you can brag about what a boss you are, you stopped to consider for just a second that MAYBE what you did wasn’t THAT special and maybe it isn’t THAT hard to achieve and maybe, just maybe, it’s been codified into a system and all the wizardry taken out of it.“….

    Please read the direct quote from me.

    Am I really being condescending in that sentence? Did I say anything about what a ” boss ” I was/am? ( I am a boss, but I don’t brag about it much, particularly here at TRM ). Did I make any references to ” wizardry at ant time?

    I don’t give nonsense opinions. My opinions are just as valid as Tyler or Julien or Mystery, from my lived experiences and knowledge as someone who did not use any kind of codification or method.

    I am speaking to the responses wrt to the OP. Guys do indeed seem to not get this , and that’s cooler than a fan. Some dudes playing Basketball on a court in the park think that since it’s all basketball, they can go play for the knicks and win a championship. Guys are allowed to think and believe whatever they want to think and believe.

    But everything is not always the same thing, even when they appear to be. Who taught me this? Nobody. I’ve observed it in life over time.

    Again, not starting anything, just clarifting my points after they get misinterpreted. Again.

  49. “you actually didn’t read the Deida distinctions, did you?”

    I did. All I saw was appreciation, attraction, familiarity, and ego attachment. The fact that there are even 3 definitions at all is a good argument for not using it. It’s a bullshit word with no clear definition and is usually thrown in with a bunch of sentimentality and specialness.

    “Is Romance a dirty word here too?”

    I don’t know if it’s a dirty word. Just a flowery word for comfort if you ask me. I’d probably just say comfort because we have a bunch of people coming here that have been fucked over by buying into the specialness of flowery language like that.

    “And whose doing the catering on what Infield. Or if you are a Patriologist or a member of the Puerarchy.”

    I don’t really know what that sentence means and I’m too lazy to use the dictionary. The only thing I care about is if something logically makes sense. I don’t care what label you give me or what you label yourself. If it doesn’t make sense I’m not going to agree with you.

  50. @ SJF

    ” I’m not a big fan of that.”

    Lol.

    Normally neither am I, but these disagreements always turn shitty and just never end well with anyone ever learning anything new or useful. the ” learn ” app has been deactivated after a while.

    AR told me that no one is stopping me from moving the conversation forward.

    Good advice is good.

  51. “The fact that there are even 3 definitions at all is a good argument for not using it.”

    The point of having three definitions was in fact to describe three different pizza’s; Love, Comfort and The Ability to Rouse a girl you want to fuck to have desire to fuck you.

    “I don’t really know what that sentence means and I’m too lazy to use the dictionary.”

    Debate is difficult when the opponent is inattentive. Or doesn’t have the same values. But actually shares some similar goals (inter-sexual game). Perhaps you aren’t actually using logic to make sense, but rather using emotion.

    Perhaps you can bookmark this for later. I doubt YaReally took any time to read it the last time I posted it, because it is actually kind of a long read on why the OMG’s and YSG’s have similar interests and should be aligned to have similar opponents (blue-pillers and feminists):

    http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/01/game-as-tool-towards-recovering-lost.html

  52. “….these disagreements always turn shitty and just never end well with anyone ever learning anything new or useful…”

    I disagree.

    If I had a nickel for every point I have learned in debates here (and another nickel for every point a lurker learned, or generated a new tangent to explore) I would have a completion in life. IOW, I have learned a tremendous amount and I hope interested lurkers have also. I know Softek and Scribbler have learned a thing or two. And are alive to talk about it.

    Keep in mind on-line intellectual debate is merely a masculine surrogate for tribal fighting in real life. I agree the back and forth sometimes turns shitty. It doesn’t have to.

  53. “AR told me that no one is stopping me from moving the conversation forward.”

    Good advice is good.

    And I endorse that goal.

    Scribbler once commented one and a half years ago:

    @SJF – Yeah, you comment way too much, lol. Seriously, just know what I get from you is GOLD – no shit. To me, the only issue is whether a comment is adding value and moving the dialog along in interesting ways. The ‘burden’ is to be engaging.

    LOL, so blame him for my hamster wheeling.

  54. “The point of having three definitions was in fact to describe three different pizza’s”

    So, when you use the word love from now on are you going to follow it up with which flavor you’re talking about?

    “why the OMG’s and YSG’s have similar interests and should be aligned to have similar opponents”

    You’re the one making it out like everything is different for old guys where love and romance flourish in a holy matrimony predicated on loyalty and honor and a good woman, and blah, blah, blah, blah… Ugh. I just threw up in my mouth.

  55. I put that megaYaReally single-paragraph comment into a word processor out of curiosity.

    In a standard novel format, that would be 41 pages, and you followed it with like 3-4 more that probably equal 2-3x that.

    I’ve written novels. That would be a solid month of work for me. WTF lol.

  56. “You’re the one making it out like everything is different for old guys”

    That is how you feel about what the OMG’s are saying. OMG’s are saying in unison that everything is not different in a manosphere world of red pill awareness and game. Probably because we are trying to, and do, include more variables in masculine expression and mastery.
    Beyond just getting laid (which is infinitely more important to me than “letting love and romance flourish in a holy matrimony predicated on loyalty and honor and a good woman”) we also want to revalorize masculinity in all aspects of life, including getting laid.

    We are dedicated to red pill awareness on this blog and get served a healthy dose of game strategy (in different contexts, one of which is OMG’s Game) by commenters.

    Once again in Ian Ironwood’s words from the above link:

    Re: Blue Pill

    “Between the Puerarcy and the Patriologists lie these true Beta Lost Boys. Despite their age and apparent maturity they will, indeed, remain “lost” to manhood in their hearts and their lives. They might become Adults, but they won’t ever be real Men. That’s because their self-loathing ideas about manhood and masculinity have been tainted by feminine and feminist critique for so long that they’ve abandoned all hope of controlling their lives, and have descended to merely managing their lives . . . and usually doing a piss-poor job of it. And an almost universal element of masculinity, across culture, is the idea that a fully-formed Man is in control of his life.

    Those poor Blue Pill Betas are the ones who need the Manosphere the most. They need to be taught that it’s not just okay to be male, it can be fucking fantastic if you quit worrying about what women think and approach it from a masculine perspective — ’cause that Blue Pill perspective just leads to misery and depression. That’s the Red Pill message. The Red Pill is nothing less than the attempt of Men in our culture to consciously revalorize masculinity.

    “Revalorize” is an obscure word, I admit. It was coined by Mircea Eliade, one of the great Religious Studies scholars of the 20th century, based out of the University of Chicago. He used it to mean taking a term, idea, or meme from the past and reconstituting the traditional with new and more useful meaning. In this context, the Red Pill revalorization of masculinity is vital and necessary if we don’t want to see the mistakes of the past four decades promulgate into our sons’ futures. Or our daughters: things are looking just as grim for our girls as our boys.

    The current popular ideal of masculinity, ala the Blue Pill, is essentially “a person who just so happens to posses an XY chromosome and lives to serve women”. Bereft of all the “bad” masculine qualities (which also happen to be all the Alpha qualities women get their panties wet over) – honor, bravery, aggression, anger, stubborn determination, leadership, and yes, violence – Blue Pill masculinity leaves “good provider” and “has a functioning penis” intact at the expense of all the rest, and the latter isn’t even really required.”

  57. Andy: “So, when you use the word love from now on are you going to follow it up with which flavor you’re talking about?”

    Agape
    Eros
    Philia
    Storge

    Perfectly good words that remain unpolluted by the Romantics. They can be expressed in English, but in English grammar the flavor precedes the noun. Following is for the romantics.

    SJF: “He used it to mean taking a term, idea, or meme from the past and reconstituting the traditional with new and more useful meaning.”

    Personally I’ve never found any lack in the old meaning and have observed that when people try to infuse traditional concepts with one “new and more useful” they almost always end up just destroying the usefulness of the tradition.

  58. And let me reiterate that I am not an OMG. If and when I have some agreement with them it is not because I am ego defending my marriage which does not exist.

  59. Hate to beat a dead horse here – but Deida is a SERIAL MONOGAMIST. That is his life’s trajectory, it’s provable by looking at all his books, speeches, seminars etc – there’s a trail of evidence there. For all his wisdom, that’s a major fucking strike against him. He’s completely catering to the apex FI lifestyle with his serial monogamy, then he dresses it up as something ‘deeper’ and ‘more spiritual’. Don’t get me wrong – he’s got a lot of great advice, but to my mind it’s all tarnished by the way he actually lives his life.

  60. @YaReally

    Could use your advice on something. I’m temporarily ‘living’ in an EE country where there’s no ONS lifestyle culture whatsoever, and yet girls in salons who are 7s-8s will basically give you anything you want for ~$35. I sleep all day, head out around 9pm, and just hit one bar/club after the next, and usually end my night “in the arms of” a different part-time pro at a salon (pardon the cautious CY(M)A phrasing). Thing is – when I go out, I have great frame, know for certain that I am the prize, flirt a lot and get massive IOIs which I will act on occasionally with flirting and kino, et al (but generally, only when approached 1st, see below)…but any hint of them coming back to where I’m staying is not taken well, so I just shrug and shift the conversation…again – ONS’s are about as uncommon here as anywhere in the world I’ve been.

    As an outsider who doesn’t know the language – I’m seen as exotic, prospectively a hell of a lot richer than virtually everyone here (which is true), confident, stylish etc etc…but my thought process is that if I cold approach random groups of chicks, rather than letting them approach me (which happens ~25% of the time, the other 75% of the time they just smile at me as I make strong EC and smirk at them from afar) – this will shift my attractive mystique into an inappropriately creepy vibe since I do not speak their language and therefore any banter/amused mastery I can participate in must be nonverbal – in other words, not conducive to approaching and starting a conversation *at all*….

    I suppose I have the best of all worlds here, but of course I still want ‘more’…I’d like to be pulling and banging these 9s+ who give me massive IOIs and aren’t pros, with all the risk that pros entail, and get that added kick of extra desire and eagerness to please me. Any thoughts on how to tweak either what I’m doing, or my mindset, in practical terms so that I can better capitalize on all the strengths I have going for me here?

  61. @yareally

    I wonder why you even bother with those ‘krauser, not rollo’ disclaimers. As if it ever achieved anything.

  62. @SJF

    Deida teaches that non-monogamy (non serial monogamy, at least) is “wrong” / “lower vibration” / “not as spiritual” and all that nonsense. He is catering to the FI and he knows it – hence his close association with rabid feminists like Marianne Williamson. Surely you know this.

  63. @YSG @OMG

    Sort of glad the OMGs have stopped escalating the marriage disagreement. Now Yareally needs to refrain from poking the old guys and we’ll all be a happy family again…

    But I dig where both sides are coming from and I think it’s been stated eloquently by others here and mostly absorbed by level-headed dudes like Blax, etc..

    The “agree to disagree” disconnect still stands though and I think it stems from Yareally’s insistence that attraction and game are all that matters and the OMGs view that they’ve got something special that rises above gaming young bar sluts.

    Being an ex-OMG (I’m 57, my ex 58) I can understand the OMG’s pov. But you successful OMGs are either naturals who’ve never had a problem meeting women or strong alphas who’ve let the the beta-side slip in and who’ve recovered using RP/game. Great on you guys. Wish I was as successful as you were. That’s an honest truth.

    There’s a hoard of betazied OMGs (myself included) and YSGs that understand Yareally’s pua pov (MM and attraction is everything) and think this is spot-on. Apply some shit that’s been tested against countless bar sluts and surprise! – it works with these other classy ladies of all ages we meet – because AWALT.

    Yareally is presenting the raw mechanics of attraction and states it’s the basis for everything man/woman and it’s hard to disagree with this view. The raw mechanics are ugly truths and I get OMGs might not want to apply them to their own situations but they can be transposed to successful OMG situations and in my mind correctly explains that mysterious ‘love’ thing and the successful 30 year marriage thing (where success is defined as an active sex life and an emotional variance that keeps the couple together), unlike my dismal 28 year failure.

    There’s no need to agree to disagree. The raw mechanics of attraction are seem universal to me. They might be hard to swallow for naturals but they are important to understand for OMG/OSG losers like myself and pua dudes of all ages.

    We can agree to agree. We can also agree to stop spiking each other emotionally. Keep that shit for the ladies. All you guys present so much value to us lurkers and recovering betas. Keep moving it forward.

  64. This is deep conversion.
    Note the kindness, devotion, respect in the note written to her lover 18 years after his death (lovers for 26 years) :

  65. DisgruntledEarthling

    No one is discounting attraction and it is not hard for anyone to understand… It is incomplete though in solely explaining long term male female relationships. This is the forever funny part, the persistent view of PUA that the field is limited solely to their own (and similarly situated) rather scant experiences… And shaped by their point of view developed from being hard cases… And all else doesnt exist because – makes brain hurt/cognitive dissonance.

    Perspective is an amazing thing for developing wisdom.

  66. Excellent points D Earthling.

    Will take your advice.

    I’m short on words, sitting in a deer stand. Only saw 12 deer in shooting range (30 to 50 yards) but no actual good enough shooters. Epic weather cold front has them moving good.

    Joe K. I know nothing of Deida except his red pill awareness books in which there is no monogamy preaching. I don’t advocate monogamy for others because that would be just red pill stupid silly and idiotic. Every man has his own choice in the matter.
    It’s not better for others.

    Sure I was defensive and trying to validate to others here in the past about how good it works for me and other MRP guys with children. Umm, Sorry? I’m past that now because of more mastery competence.

  67. @ DisgruntledEarthling

    Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

    I still believe that the better solution is to just agree to disagree in this case. That’s how moving forward can happen. Idk why some things that are beyond a person’s experience just have to be flat out mocked and discounted in the name of ” not misleading the newbs ” so consistently.

    Imo it fosters a narrow minded/tunnel visioned mindset and viewpoint. No one will disagree or argue about attraction. But there’s more to the possible story, and it’s not magical or mystical at all. Only considering attraction as the sole reason for everything in an interaction demonstrates limited thought, understanding and experience.

    One does not know what he doesn’t know. It’s just that simple in the end.

    So I make my case. Either guys can get it, or they can refuse and mock. Flat earth society and all that. What I’m confident in, is Time. Even now Tyler is starting to open his mind beyond what he thought he knew. This happens to all really curious guys after a while, but it takes time and experience. And it’s not about age and being ” old ” either. It’s about the individual and his outlook and mindset and willingness to constantly increase his knowledge and experiences. Full stop.

    Formula and clinical understanding is great, but it’s not the whole story.

    So, agree to disagree and move forward. Time is fucking undefeated. Ha ha.

  68. This shit is hardwired and consistent. “DEEP ATTRACTION ALPHA MAGIC (TM)(TM)” doesn’t circumvent Hypergamy.

    True. Mrs. Gamer hit me with several shit tests last night and this morning after I was out and she smelled women’t perfume on me. But Deep Conversion is on a different slider than Hypergamy. Men are susceptible to Deep Conversion just like women are. NLP works on everybody.

  69. @SJF

    “I’m short on words, sitting in a deer stand. Only saw 12 deer in shooting range (30 to 50 yards) but no actual good enough shooters. Epic weather cold front has them moving good.”

    You should come down to my place – plenty of dear here. Would be glad if someone could take down that large block bear that chased me though 🙂

  70. @OMG
    Understood. As mush as I like and appreciate Yareally I think he overstepped some bounds and crossed some lines that he shouldn’t have. I feel bad for him. Got deep bro love for him and the pua gang here.

  71. @anon
    Kate Hepburn an example of Alpha Widow. She obviously had a lot of Eros for Spencer Tracy in previous years. She still has a lot of Agape for him, plus the good memories brings up all the emotional state associated with those memories. It’s deep affection, resulting from deep neural pathways carved years before. Remember from a purely organ-level, dopamine-level, “in love” and “addiction are the same thing.

    Plus Hepburn never actually lived with Tracy for an extended period of time, so she never saw him fail shit tests, never saw him become less Alpha or more Betaized, she saw him at his best but never at his worst. So the deep neural channels were never sandpapered on.

    It’s a good example of deep attraction.

  72. @ DisgruntledEarthling

    Everybody loves YaReally ( but he doesn’t run on anyone’s approval, which is correct ). He’s sharp as a scalpel re: Pua. No question, hands down. And I lost count of how many guys express thanks for his help and explanations. So in that spirit, he can’t really ” cross lines “, but he can be highly mistaken about some things outside of pua. The ” Field is King “, but the field is also vast and expansive and varied. It’s so big in fact, that one can’t see all of it at once. I disagree and push back against the ” I haven’t seen it, so it doesn’t exist ” paradigm.

    Yareally is presenting the raw mechanics of attraction and states it’s the basis for everything man/woman and it’s hard to disagree with this view. The raw mechanics are ugly truths and I get OMGs might not want to apply them to their own situations but they can be transposed to successful OMG situations and in my mind correctly explains that mysterious ‘love’ thing and the successful 30 year marriage thing (where success is defined as an active sex life and an emotional variance that keeps the couple together), unlike my dismal 28 year failure.

    I do not disagree with Ya concerning attraction at all.

    But just for clarification, no one can ever reveal any ” ugly truths ” to me about any personal situations I may be involved in. Just because a guy doesn’t believe in ” love ” ( or keeps misreading the OP’s here regarding the subject ) doesn’t effect my circumstances at all. IMO, living life via a cold-ish program is not really living life, but this is only my opinion according to what I have learned. In the end it’s better than nothing at all. Guys can always do whatever the hell they want to do, believe whatever the hell they’d like to believe.

    And don’t get down on yourself seeing your marriage as a failure. Shit happens. The thing is to find out how not to repeat the same mistakes. Some people that have been divorced believe that marriage is just a clusterfuck period. That’s their perspective and they are entitled to it. Sooooo….they will never be able to have another because of their mindsets, that will prevent them from gaining knowledge. That’s their prerogative. Some guys that have never been married can tell you all about it , and it’s all negative. Lol, whatever. Misery loves company I guess.

    I just happen to believe that women/chicks/girls are not an unsolvable puzzle, or savage beasts, or only good for wetting one’s penis in. This has not been my life experience. If a guy thinks that they run shit, they are going to have a limited ability to get farther than some pussy with them in the long run, but some guys dig the short run. Women don’t run a damn thing when it comes to men. The only true power they have is what men have voluntarily conceded to them, and they hate them for precisely that.

    It all comes back to perception and experiences.

    I see men differently than pua’s. So Ya and I will probably bump heads often. Iron sharpens Iron. I’d like men to be all that they are capable of, and that also means mastering the weaker sex, because that is a man’s role here on the planet ultimately. I agree with the idea of correction, but outside of a handful of comments, that notion gets crickets. That’s really too bad.

  73. I made the mistake of originally scrolling past this comment:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/11/11/deep-conversion/comment-page-6/#comment-179140

    Otherwise I wouldn’t have actually responded to him.

    Good luck with that no-strings-attached method of interacting with women Joe K Dokey. Please under stand a bit more of red pill before you comment. Or please just stick to PUA topics so as not to ruin red pill newbies that actually read and learn from this forum and host.

    How young are you and what other purposes or missions are you striving for in life.

    PS. Please use scrupulous birth control methods.

    PSS. Good luck debating anthropology with KFG.

  74. Thx rollo for clarifying this concept as a lot of this opportunistic concept of love gets misinterpreted in the manosphere.

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