For Better or Worse

betterorworse

Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.

The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.

The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.

Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.

For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.

As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.

Instant Gratification

In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.

It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.

As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.

On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.

The Open Hypergamy Future

I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.

Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?

My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.

People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.

[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.

The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.

The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.

Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.

Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”

We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.

Primary LTRs

The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.

Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.

I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.

The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.

It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.

There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.

We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Yareally

The Red Pill either works or it doesn’t. These concepts either work or they don’t. MMSL works because these concepts work and MMSL triggers dread/attraction/hypergamy.

One would think that by your writing these sentences, by now you would have moved on from this whole topic… read them again.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ othergrain “Older guys, how would you recommend a young(ish) man goes about having kids in this day and age? No marriage…except it’s the best way to raise kids and there’s a chance a judge might treat you a little better (unless she cries abuse)? Like what combination of LTR, living arrangement, etc. Do you guys recommend. I get you think yareally’s plan won’t work. What alternative would you get behind?” I actually do not recommend that younger men have kids in this day and age. I’ve gone over a myriad of reasons why in previous posts, but mostly a… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

comment image

Lack of Bubble c. 1870

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Saying that you ” get ” when I say that men don’t want to do the hard work, and then telling me that you KNOW men should do the hard work, is confusing to me.”

This is how he gets to say he’s been saying it all along.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“The biggest disconnect for single unmarried guys is understanding that a GF is not a wife.”

@Blax

The vows don’t mean shit anymore. You need to get that through your head.

YaReally
5 years ago

@DisgruntledEarthling “I brought this up before – why are men so conditioned to (still) have kids given the one-sideness against men.” The reality is most men are hardwired to want to pass on their genes at some point. This is kind of like the argument Tyler makes for PUA: “your buddies will tell you PUA is creepy, learning to hit on girls is creepy and weird…no, you know what’s creepy and weird? NOT learning to hit on girls. Because it’s not like these guys talking shit aren’t going to TRY to do it. They’re not going to NOT talk to… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Andy ““The biggest disconnect for single unmarried guys is understanding that a GF is not a wife.” @Blax The vows don’t mean shit anymore. You need to get that through your head.” This. Maybe it’s too much to accept that society could have changed that much since his time? Us guys in the field are surprised how fast things have changed too. No one saw these technological/cultural shifts coming, we are scrambling to adapt to them. A guy can understand that a GF is not a wife, but that doesn’t matter…what matters is that <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 don't understand… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Sentient ” You also have an extremely naive view of what women’s relationships with their friends look like after they are out of college… and have all moved to different parts of the country… and are settling down with different guys and having kids and dealing with those logistics and many working jobs on top of that…” Lol. THIS. Sometimes I don’t recognize all of these absolute things YaReally CONSTANTLY points out as facts about EVERY woman of certain ages. Rollo asked him once, as he was ranting, where he lived and how old he was. He ignored both… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

“…But I like your questions…”

Lol.

As he discounts every, single, one of them.

@ Garnet

Good points. Factual, not all that speculative.

More on that in a minute. I’m still reading about myself and how I don’t know anything in 2016….

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

“…Unfortunately in Listen & Believe 2016 culture full of Vanirs…”

Now the 2016 is full of vanirs too.

Lol.

Up next, Vampires.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

All I’m doing is taking the tools we know, understand, and accept, and saying: how about we draft up a blueprint for a better house, using these tools that create better structures than using our bare hands does, instead of hanging our tools off our belt while trying to build a statistically shitty structure with our bare hands for no benefit? And all we are saying is “oh a house? You mean like this” and showing an actual real house, not a plan… and you say no no no that has a red door… in 2016 the houses need to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

and you know.. the house is all about the foundation and the roof and distributing the load of the roof…

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

…Checking my pulse now…

Yup!!! I’m still alive, hence I’m still in ” my time “.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Sentient

” and you know.. the house is all about the foundation and the roof and distributing the load of the roof…”

Lol. That’s how it was in your day, but it’s 2016 now. We’re just trying to find a new and better way to build houses without using that old style ” foundation ” stuff, that no longer works because I say so, even though I’ve never actually built a house.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND????

YaReally
5 years ago

@Kayos “YaReally I think you should give up trying to have a discussion on this here. This isn’t the place for it because of the mix of age groups here. Know that most lurkers below a certain age group understand what you’re advocating perfectly.” Thanks for the support. I know there are a lot of guys lurking that agree with me but just don’t want to get chewed out by the OMGs for saying it. Sorry Blaximus, this isn’t a sock-puppet. This is just a guy who’s dealing with the realities I’m trying to get across to you OMGs. And… Read more »

Strong, Independent Woman
Strong, Independent Woman
5 years ago

Men who think they have the right to dictate the actions of women, are inherently abusive – it’s something they simply don’t have the right to do.

Vanir, right again! No man should ever dictate the actions of anyone else.

That’s a job for women!

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Ever notice how YaReally just ignores kfg’s posts on this subject?

He just moves right along.

Interesting.

Maybe I should take a cue from brother kfg and reply short, consise and sweet.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@YaReally The stuff I laid out before that you reacted to like ‘this is my whole point!’ is my perspective about what we have a consensus about. Everyone basically agrees with you on the major stuff. I’m just not seeing the justification for your going after Blax etc over and over, sure there’s a few nuances of difference here or there but it looks to me you’re WAY over-pattern matching the opposition here. No-one has said anything about a LEGAL marriage license for pages, except to wonder if maybe having one could help in family court. Blax still sees a… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Vanir
“It’s a reason isolating the victim is the number one goal of crazy sociopath everywhere.”

lol this is LITERALLY the exact thing I said is the first go-to that <25yo 8+/10 2016 chicks will hear when you try to "make them get rid of their orbiters just like I told my wife to not talk to that one orbiter she had back in 1802" as Blaximus advised. And if it's a girl saying this, she'll add "I had an abusive ex and he did that to ME" etc etc

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

” lol this is LITERALLY the exact thing I said is the first go-to that <25yo 8+/10 2016 chicks will hear when you try to "make them get rid of their orbiters just like I told my wife to not talk to that one orbiter she had back in 1802" as Blaximus advised. And if it's a girl saying this, she'll add "I had an abusive ex and he did that to ME" etc etc"

sorry that the FI and vanir kicked you in the balls so hard.

But keep capitulating. Sounds like a plan to me.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Alright, let’s start this foundation in the bedrock. Introducing Skyforged Maxims 1 and 2. I. People stay in relationship to people who provide value to them they cannot obtain elsewhere. II. If you want someone to stay in a relationship with you, determine something of value that they cannot easily get, and which you can consistently provide. **** A few localized points emerging from this: Money is hard to work with now, since it matters less to women whose subsistence is accounted for. As well, it’s harder for the average man to work himself into an impressive financial circumstance than… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Forge the Sky “Blax still sees a marriage-like relationship as being the best bet, something where you can call her your wife, but that’s not really in opposition to anything you’re saying. ” *I* know that. I’ve known that for 20 pages. Could you please inform Blaximus of that? I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think he’d even disagree with most of what I’m saying if he could take a chill pill and stop getting emotionally riled up and actually logic out what I’m saying because most of it doesn’t even go against what he’s saying. But I have to… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@YaReally

I’m not arguing with your point, I’m furthering it. The stuff about pLTR’s (since we’re agreeing on it so far) is the sort of thing that should be included in a ‘guide’ like you envision. And the second thing re: social media is meant as a call to gather data.

Forward, not around.

Does anyone know many/any swingers or people in open relationships with children we could get info from? I don’t know any myself. Conservative UMC upbringing and all. Or heck, maybe we could find a bunch on some subreddit or something to ask.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Yareally

So surreal. But that’s where the disconnect between guys actually in the field trying to LTR <25yo 8+/10 women in 2016 and guys who are armchair theorizing and using outdated experiences shows itself.

Surreal is right… i’ve read a hundred times from you about the 22YO 8 stripper I banged but yet you keep posting this BS about “guys in the field”…

Which is it?

YaReally
5 years ago

@Forge the Sky I’d say we can leap ahead in the conversation right to triggering attraction/hypergamy. Literally everything comes down to hypergamy, that’s why I <3 Rollo so much for bringing hypergamy to the fore-front in the red pill community. It's unbelievably important and underlies EVERYTHING. If you aren't triggering her hypergamy, you're fucked and more likely to end up in the family court battle. If you're triggering her hypergamy, she's probably not going to leave (MMSL, OMGs LTRs, etc show this). So we can strip everything away and boil everything down to: what is the optimal way to trigger… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“with a fake name on his business trips”

Who said anything about this? fake name? You’re embellishing. Why?

No name is more like it, because as someone “in the field” most times girls don’t even ask your name

YaReally
5 years ago

@Sentient “Surreal is right… i’ve read a hundred times from you about the 22YO 8 stripper I banged but yet you keep posting this BS about “guys in the field”… Which is it?” Dunno, you dodged the question when I asked if you made her give up all her social media for you or monogamously LTR’ed her for multiple years. Glad you brought it back up, please tell us the answer to those two questions. Because the guys infield are the guys trying to LTR these girls, in all the pickup communities across the board. So please, tell us all… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Sentient
“Who said anything about this? fake name? You’re embellishing. Why?”

I’m using your situation as a base example and improving on it with the fake name part to stress that you don’t have to have girls who can look you up and come fuck up your family court date. You’re smarter than this, come on now.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Holy fuck… Now I have to say you must have some kind of autism or something Yareally…

If you aren’t triggering her hypergamy, you’re fucked and more likely to end up in the family court battle. If you’re triggering her hypergamy, she’s probably not going to leave (MMSL, OMGs LTRs, etc show this).

This is exactly what I told you two threads ago…

Vanir (@Vanir85)
5 years ago

“the first go-to that <25yo 8+/10 2016 chicks will hear when you try to "make them get rid of their orbiters just like I told my wife to not talk to that one orbiter she had back in 1802" " – YaReally It's also true. And really good advice. Someone trying to isolate you will only do so because it makes you easier to manipulate. They have their own "best interest" in mind – not yours – and their interest is in controlling you. As perfectly demonstrated on this site – would be manipulators hate that this is a well… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Gamma

Dunno, you dodged the question when I asked if you made her give up all her social media for you or monogamously LTR’ed her for multiple years.

It was all in the field report, so no… your fake hypothetical was answered before you asked it.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

http://www.museodelcomunismo.it/images/g-jim-jones/Jonestown_18-11-1978.jpg

Holy shit… now we have two idiots…

Look how isolated these folks are…

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

And the way to do that is to focus on triggering hypergamy long-term.
And we KNOW how to do that. Rollo has been talking about the tools to do that for 5 years. PUAs in all communities have been field testing the tools to do that for 10+ years.

I am literally pissing myself… “managed hypergamy” sound familiar? Do you read anything any of us wrote? Check your archive…

And 10+ years… but wait that is “old stuff” we’ve all heard before no?

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

This is what I’ve been saying.

Agreeing that feminuts are more powerful and relevant than they actually are empowers ( fake empowerment ) them.

There’s agreement to their agenda.

YaReally
5 years ago

@Forge the Sky “I’m not arguing with your point, I’m furthering it.” Agreed and I appreciate it, not sure if I’m coming off hostile to you but I don’t intend to, I’ve just had to bitch-slap a lot of OMGs around here lately lol I agree completely that pLTRs need to be discussed, experimented with, taught, etc more in-depth. Right now we just have scraps of information here and there, with Blackdragon being a huge part of that, but a lot of his stuff was written a while back before this 2016 culture picked up steam, Tyler’s a better example… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

“So we can strip everything away and boil everything down to: what is the optimal way to trigger hypergamy long-term?” Yes, although I’d add that sexual attraction isn’t going to be maintained 24/7/365 in most relationships, so it’s important to have some other forms of value engaged as well – to hold things together a bit, give you a bit of wiggle room in case attraction falls apart for a few months or something. Once money/providing did this. I think it’s legitimate to ask if we have other ways of doing this that work now. Are there things you can… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

STOP EVERYTHING Yareally has solved it! And the way to do that is to focus on triggering hypergamy long-term. Which is not at all like “have hand and never lose it” because that was just an impossible “dude be alpha 24/7 bro”… And it is not “develop a dynamic, passionate and authentic life”, cuz ya know those are just made up words that don’t mean anything, and if they do it’s just something that some other PUA said using very different words… OK then… just… trigger… hypergamy… long… term…. LOL But that is not agreeing with me KFG… No no…… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

…. I felt THAT coming

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Identifying Gamma males A recovering ex-Gamma helpfully provides a list of behavioral attributes: When you are having an argument with someone and it appears you are wrong, the most common belief and defense is that the other person simply doesn’t understand what you are saying. When discussing matters with someone and you think you are maybe, possibly, being shown to be wrong, you start to get snarky, crack lame jokes, and immediately try to change the subject. If someone holds an opinion contrary to yours, and you don’t think you have a good defense immediately to hand, you start to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Yareally

So you HAVEN’T monoLTR’ed a <25yo 8+/10 in the last few years past the NRE stage? Cool, I don't know why you brought up your lack of experience but thanks for clarifying that you're not what I mean when I say "guys in the field".

And as you agreed with me right at the start of this, you’ve not either.

So now what?

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Agreeing to a monogamous marriage is just as much of a capitulation to feminism as a pLTR. More if you ask me. Like kfg said you can’t out alpha the system. We need to choose the best way to stay out of the court system (keep the baby momma happy). Or don’t have kids.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Andy

*said with no malice*

What are you, 12 years old or something???

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Sentient

Forward, not around.

Do you want another 10 pages of arguing about definitions? This isn’t about anyone’s ego.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Rollo

I suspect YaReally wasn’t really taking the ideology of the poster into the context.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

This isn’t about anyone’s ego.

You’re speaking only for yourself, of course.

I know, let’s all ask Vanir what it thinks is the best form of LTR.
That’s got to be good for pages of fun.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ AR

I’m not really all that interested in what vanir has to say as it serves zero purpose for me in life.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“What are you, 12 years old or something???”

???

Happy= satisfy her hypergamy. You know what I mean.

Saracen III
Saracen III
5 years ago

Individual Child Support is Alimony
Alimony is the root problem.
The battle is lost,
and men do not yet have the numbers to un-rig the game.

The only honest risk mitigation is scorched-earth

Have the snip.
Don’t marry.
Don’t date single moms.
Prosper.

Until alimony ceases.

A financial gun-to-the-head is no way to live a life,
and no way to raise a child.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Andy…my brother

” We need to choose the best way to stay out of the court system (keep the baby momma happy). Or don’t have kids.”

Keep her happy???

http://eil.com/images/main/Molly+Hatchet+Flirtin+With+Disaster+423109.jpg

cheupez
5 years ago

Great post. Great comment thread too (except for the part where that vanir thing sauntered into this place and insisted on making its way through the crowded arena blind folded).

Scrib plainly recounts to it his first hand experience with a system that treats men as second class citizens, and it wont dare remove the blindfold to take even a passing glance? How do you argue with such a thing?

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Rollo “Even if you have a kid it doesn’t matter because that caveat to replace its mother is always on the table. ” no, it’s not… that was my point on the child support model of marriage being the new form of ‘common law marriage’. (and kfg’s point about that Red Queen’s corridor… and that laser looks slightly less painful than family court…lol… but the effect is the same…) have a kid = married… you CAN’T leave… bc of the kid… and THAT (not being able to ‘leave’) is enforced by the state court system…for the next possibly 24 years…… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ HABD

I don’t believe in forced monogamy.

Monogamy is always voluntary.

The idea that a man ” gives up all of his options ” when choosing monogamy is false.

The options, if they even existed in the first place, are still available. A man that gives up his options by force or coercion, has fucked himself.

That narrative has been foisted up the flagpole pretty consistently as a reason not to be monogamous.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

I thought of Rollo just now because of his history as a member of a band…was at a bar and met a couple…the man invited me to hear his band play this weekend…after a while he left to go talk to someone else…I was there with my buddy and we had chatted up the couple…I said good night to my buddy and the woman and the woman wanted a hug…she kissed my ear, lol…pulled away…then she did it again…she may have nibbled briefly on my lobe…I returned the kiss on her cheek…she held my hand for a few seconds, then… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Blaximus i’m glad you saw yourself in that example, but i was really pointing it at @Rollo…lol… I don’t believe in forced monogamy. Monogamy is always voluntary. The idea that a man ” gives up all of his options ” when choosing monogamy is false. no, it’s not… it’s the difference between BP monogamy and RP ‘monogamy’… BP monogamy = guy ‘gives up’ his options as required by FI/social conditioning to ‘earn’ his unicorn… this choice is really a coerced (forced) choice… to become?… a pLTR in the girl’s favor… in 2016 anyway…lol… which leads to disinterest and dead bedroom…… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
5 years ago

@Vanir

“It’s also true. And really good advice. Someone trying to isolate you will only do so because it makes you easier to manipulate. They have their own “best interest” in mind – not yours – and their interest is in controlling you.
As perfectly demonstrated on this site – would be manipulators hate that this is a well know warning sign that most normal people immediately find suspect.”

Only that most men have no idea this is even happening to them in the first place. They think they’re manipulating you by giving you what you want. Fucking morons.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ HABD

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess sometimes I should take out my Red Pill contact lenses.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Shit I can’t possibly jump on the spinning merry-go-round as it is spinning in an effective fashion. But WTF, will KJ anyway. (I actually didn’t catch on till a couple weeks ago the KJing meant Keyboard Jockeying instead of what I imagined was Kill Joying.) The OMG’s and the YSG’s have too much of a divide to actually agree on a choice of how to structure their masculine style of living. @Othergrain Sorry not to reply to your questions. But I can’t possibly make any sense of giving a recommendation to YSG’s. Because my situation is unique. And I would… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

Oh, there was no dancing at this bar…I was just chatting up the couple and playing pool with my buddy, so there was no Awesome Dance Lead Status ™ in play

NeverAgain
NeverAgain
5 years ago

“How much money she can spend, what car she can buy, how long she can stay out – smoking and using (for the sake of this discussion, legal) drugs…. that’s her own call.” @Vanir Absolutely!!! Now the small print: – what she spends is fine, as long as it’s her OWN money. – as long as when she’s finished staying out, she goes back to her OWN place. – what car she buys is fine as long as it’s her OWN money. I’d hope by now the theme is coming across. What women do is perfectly fine as long as… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
5 years ago

@SJF I think you do have answers. You basically be the kind of guy that knows game, but also knows that to achieve a certain result, you can’t just do whatever you want. It’s foolishness to acquiesce these women in their choice to ride the carousel over our feet. The truth is that if we don’t like it we can resist it and it will have an impact if we focus on ourselves first and others second. Women will tire of never meeting men who are stupid enough to commit to them while they stubbornly refuse monogamy. Anyone who lets… Read more »

Mineter
Mineter
5 years ago

I’d like to have a crack at the conundrum of “how to have a child” having had this swirl around my head these past couple of days. The argument has been going in circles. YSGs are asking “how does one have a child whilst mitigating the risks of getting arse fucked by the child support system?” and OMGs are saying “you cannot”, and YSGs saying “well, you ain’t no fucking help then”. I got to thinking that men can be no better than women trying to hold two opposing facts to be true at the same time. There are CHOICES… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“There are CHOICES to be made – you cannot just piss and whine that you can’t take cherry pick the advantages and leave behind the attached negatives.”

Give this man a Cuban El Rey del Mundo and a glass of Hennessy XO.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Mineter

Interesting perspective. Lol.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“There are CHOICES to be made – you cannot just piss and whine that you can’t take cherry pick the advantages and leave behind the attached negatives.”

Otherwise known as taking a Fork in the Road after Vetting and There after managing.

And I’d be satisfied with a Honduran El Rey del Mundo and a glass of George Dickel #12 Tennessee whiskey. For having said the same thing before.

Compromising and all. And not wanting to have it all, unconditionally. Because you know, Mastery. And as always, Adapt.

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
5 years ago

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

Rollo, guys…
There’s this Viceland series called ‘Black Market’ and one of their recent episodes was called “Sugababies”.
Has any of you watched it? Please do…

Rollo, don’t know I you’ve watched it or not but I thought it would make for some interesting, if not relevant, material for this series.

Mineter
Mineter
5 years ago

@ SJF I won’t take credit where it isn’t due. I didn’t dream up this stuff on my ownsome. Since my own near divorce a couple of years ago, I have read extensively, here and elsewhere. I have synthesised a lot of things. I have merely stood on the shoulders of the men who have come before me: OMGs, YSGs, PUAs, bible-bashers and MRAs, even some MGTOWs. I agree with your view that YSGs and OMGs have different foci, and therefore different ways of dealing with their particular circumstances. A man can’t effectively apply a solution that goes with a… Read more »

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

Here we go….

https://youtu.be/YrvjwZG8iuI

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Forge I. People stay in relationship to people who provide value to them they cannot obtain elsewhere. II. If you want someone to stay in a relationship with you, determine something of value that they cannot easily get, and which you can consistently provide. Agreed. The value can not strictly be material or monetary because there’s always somebody with more shit and more cash. Women find a good amount of value in how you effect them, how you make them feel. This can be a bonanza for men because it means that it is possible to get a hb9… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Damn, lost the last sentence….

Now that I’m more mature ( lol ) I have more confidence in my worth and value. I truly believe that I’m a prize catch for females. It’s their loss if they don’t get it.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

The message I’m getting as a single guy isn’t that there’s some sacrifices to be made for advantages. There’s just piling disadvantages on yourself now, and if you don’t like it you’re some kind of whiner. Helpful. If that’s the case, then the only winning move is not to play.

Damn shame.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Mineter:

The point is what I quoted. A specific strategic scenario was posed and tactics to achieve it solicited.

But the strategy is the specific one that the system is designed to chew up and spit out. And it’s waiting. The team had thought that they’d hacked the system to open the door, but, in fact, that was a subterfuge by the Queen. The door opening was an invitation.

So, “You cannot.”

If you don’t want to get sliced and diced, either don’t go down the Red Queen’s corridor, or disable the weapons system.

Do something different.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“If that’s the case, then the only winning move is not to play.”

That may well be the case for a very large number of men.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Or they could disable the weapons system.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Mineter “I won’t take credit where it isn’t due. I didn’t dream up this stuff on my ownsome. Since my own near divorce a couple of years ago, I have read extensively, here and elsewhere. I have synthesised a lot of things.” Absolutely. So did all the great manosphere bloggers. They synthesized. That is what the Manosphere is. A great synthesis. And why the OMG’s have nothing new, but what is old, but Mystery Method is old but Knew is pretty damn bitter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTkN8BQqv1M Othergrain: “Same question for you guys…but if the only thing you can say is “never be… Read more »

Mineter
Mineter
5 years ago

@ KFG Agree. Furiously agree. The system *is* designed like that. It is nigh on impossible to change the system, disable it, or hack it. One’s choices are limited. “Don’t play” is the obvious one. “Do something different…” well, the packages on offer aren’t to everyone’s tastes, for one reason or another. There isn’t a package on offer that suits every man, in every situation, all the time. The only solution, really, is to have the ability to be able to get out of an irrevocable election. This whole discussion appears to boil down to: be the man that a… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong

You are not getting the message that is being attempted.

The correct message is: If it (life) is indeed actually a Game. Then learn the rules (red pill awareness) and play it well (Game).

No one can forecast outcomes or make predictions. But take it as it comes and play to your strengths, minimize your weaknesses and hit for the fences.

Shut down negative thought loops and forge on with positive game.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Mineter

” This whole discussion appears to boil down to: be the man that a woman would never want to leave; or be the man than *can* leave (relatively unscathed).”

Call me old fashioned, or delusional ( I’ve been called both here…lol ) but I honestly believe that this is still possible.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I was taken by the fact that not only is a Red Queen metaphor used in the movie and the scene apropos to the discussion here, but is also a well known metaphor in evolutionary biology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

All kidding aside, Vanir has trotted out standard 3rd stage feminist lines. People like Vanir are embedded in many universities, teaching first year students (because freshMEN is teh patriarchy!) all about “sexual harassment” and “raype”. People like Vanir are increasingly in charge of uni star chamber proceedings. People like Vanir are the ones that will decide if your college student son is a raypist or not. People like Vanir are going to be more and more embedded in the “domestic violence” machine, which includes “marital rape”. Notice how Vanir seeks to criminalize Game, and even basic masculinity? That’s where “yes… Read more »

Mineter
Mineter
5 years ago

@KFG Nice… Not very energy efficient, though. If the corridor was just an oversized microwave, that would have worked, too. (I once considered having just such an entry hall for would be burglars…) A floor which gives way to a spike filled pit would have used no energy at all (nor required any maintenance). Some Anglosphere jurisdictions are a few degrees less horrible than others. For example, in Australia, CS is mainly a function of your actual taxable income and the proportion of time you have kids in your care. But it’s not financially crippling, and most of the draconian… Read more »

mersonia
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong

“The message I’m getting as a single guy isn’t that there’s some sacrifices to be made for advantages. There’s just piling disadvantages on yourself now, and if you don’t like it you’re some kind of whiner. Helpful. If that’s the case, then the only winning move is not to play.

Damn Shame”

Thats the consensus….

OMG = If it might not work don’t ever try it…… just keep doing what we know fails for sure.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

Population decline is a reality in most native First World populations right now, largely as a reaction to a lot of what we discuss here I wager. If we can offer them nothing as a solution, then that will continue to be the reality. I don’t consider that a good thing mankind. Real time anecdote: just got back from a vacation throwing motorcycles around the mountain roads of Arkansas. Sitting at the bar near me listening to a Beta orbiter try to talk his way in to the pants of the obnoxious 34 year old trainwreck he’s clearly spent a… Read more »

Rick Da Trick
Rick Da Trick
5 years ago

Seen this first hand with a beta buddy of mine. He knocked a chic up and lives in sin with her and the two kids 1 boy 1 girl.Anyhow, had the misfortune to stay with them for two weeks. During this time I observed that she runs the house he even admitted this much. They fought a bunch of the time. She is a spoiled bratt and the kids do the same thing as she does when they dont get thier way. It appears she is suffering from buyers remorse. She even sort of filtered with me because she knows… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
5 years ago

@yareally “Anyway thanks for the support, it’s been a pretty demoralizing uphill battle. I know it’s just the usual 4-5 man OMG crew, but it’s still nice when lurkers chime in with “just so you know, I get what you’re saying” lol ’cause you’re the guys I’m ACTUALLY trying to help with this discussion…” I love all you guys – OMG and YSG all. I do hate this continuous shitstorm though. The problem exists, as stated by Ya. OMGs have found their own solutions some time ago and props to them. I was an OMG and failed, so I totally… Read more »

Colbert
Colbert
5 years ago

@ Mersonia, “OMG = If it might not work don’t ever try it…… just keep doing what we know fails for sure.” The current model won’t, of course, fail for sure – but it has a pretty reliable rate of failure (in 2016). Sadly, I think we can all agree it’s too high. @ Mineter, Your points are helpful considerations until a better model can be found or the divorce, alimony and CS laws in the west are changed and made more fair for fathers to be fathers in the lives of their children. Makes me sad. I’ll bet it… Read more »

Vanir (@Vanir85)
5 years ago

“If that’s the case, why bother with ANY form of LTR with women?”
-Rollo

“I should add here that women DO need the correction of men.”
-Rollo

You keep claiming my statement that you seek to control, dominate and manipulate women is a “strawman” – yet you confirm that it’s very much your intent.

If you insist on being a monster, at least be an honest one.

Vanir (@Vanir85)
5 years ago

“Scrib plainly recounts to it his first hand experience with a system that treats men as second class citizens, and it wont dare remove the blindfold to take even a passing glance?”
– cheupez

Not being allowed to control and abuse women. Not having more rights than women. Not being able to isolate and manipulate women without people who care for them intervening – none of this makes men “second class citizens” – it just makes women NOT second class citizens.

Vanir (@Vanir85)
5 years ago

“Have you learned anything at all?”
– Colbert

I have learned plenty – most of all that my initial assumptions about “redpill” ideologists were correct. Most are men who consider women inferior, who have no respect for women’s autonomy, and who think they have the right to manipulate, dominate, control and change women to be what they prefer them to be.

They just hate when they are called out on it. Hate that ppl will intervene when they try to isolate women to make them easier to “manage”.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

SomeAttentionWhore: “I have learned plenty – most of all that my initial assumptions about “MUSLIM” ideologists were correct. Most are men who consider women inferior, who have no respect for women’s autonomy, and who think they have the right to manipulate, dominate, control and change women to be what they prefer them to be.”

Rollo, she’s merely lost. She thought she was at “theradicalizedmuslimmale[dot]com” site.

Colbert
Colbert
5 years ago

Rollo, she’s merely lost. She thought she was at “theradicalizedmuslimmale[dot]com” site.

lol

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

Vanir

“Divorce may be a raw deal for men, but marriage is a raw deal for women – even without being stuck with a dominating asshole.”

Could you explain how marriage is a raw deal for women?

Please try to do so without using the words
Dominate
Control
Abuse
Isolate
Manipulate

Or if you do insist on using them, at least provide some context, like HOW marriage is about these things. You’ve pointed and sputtered these few words for three days now, time to back it up.

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

@Vanir: I have learned plenty – most of all that my initial assumptions about “redpill” ideologists were correct. Most are men who consider women inferior, who have no respect for women’s autonomy, and who think they have the right to manipulate, dominate, control and change women to be what they prefer them to be.

“Don’t know much about consent . . .” you can add to your song.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Aw come on, you didn’t actually learn anything. You are just making shit up from your perspective. “I have learned plenty – most of all that my initial assumptions about “redpill” ideologists praxeologists were correct are simply incorrect. Most are men who consider women inferior complementary to men, who have no respect for are indifferent to women’s desire for autonomy, and who think they have the right to manipulate, dominate, control and change women to be what they prefer them to be know not to suggest that a woman fix her own emotional problems.” They just hate are indifferent when… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

She also seems to have lost all traces of her femininity.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago
Colbert
Colbert
5 years ago

@ SJF,

“Vanir seems so lifeless.”

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