Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.
The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.
The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.
Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.
For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.
As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.
In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.
It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.
As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.
On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.
The Open Hypergamy Future
I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.
Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?
My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.
People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.
[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.
The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:
The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.
This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.
The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.
Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.
Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”
We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.
Primary LTRs
The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.
Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.
I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.
The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.
It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.
There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.
We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.
@ Scribb,
Curious as to your thoughts on Deutsche Bank since you said you used to work w/derivatives. What are your thoughts as to the potential implications of that particular financial institution going under given their exposure to them?
@Colbert: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-30/european-liquidity-banking-system-collapses-deutsche-stock-hits-single-digits
As an aside, concerning technological advances 😉
https://www.rt.com/uk/361200-robot-sex-cafe-london/
Vanir: “They just hate when they are called out on it. Hate that ppl will intervene when they try to isolate women to make them easier to “manage”.
“They” don’t hate it at all.
You are actually providing “them” with a great deal of entertainment.
You’ve made yourself a conversation piece.
You should really read some of Scott Adam’s advice on persuasion.
You have the melodramatics down but none of the persuasion tools. So you come across as an impassioned and condescending whiner.
Rollo – Have you done any posts on the “dick twitch”? It’s a really fascinating phenomenon. One I’ve come across yet again today. Some women, have this “allure”… that just immediately goes past your brain completely and right to your ballz and zaps them… It’s interesting because there is no thought or “wow she’s hot” mental impulses.. just a primal feeling. Different from involuntary heads snaps as a hot woman goes by catching your eye. Yeah that is an impulse but remains more ocular and cerebral. And different from catching “slut eye” from a girl and you know it is… Read more »
@Colbert – No way will the german govt or the ECB let Deutsche Bank fail. However, it could be the first signal of a bank run, but of a different type than what you’d see from retail depositors. A number of hedge funds have moved their derivatives trading away from Deutsche’s prime brokerage unit, and this is due to those firms wanting to eliminate any settlement risk that might result from a Deutsche crisis. There is a lot of credit and capital required to clear and settle derivatives transactions and if they were to lose large numbers of hedge fund… Read more »
Colbert
What are your thoughts as to the potential implications of that particular financial institution going under given their exposure to them?
Come now – just another “too big to fail” situation in the global ponzi scheme…
PS – I hope you all enjoyed the Feds 10th bait and switch move in a row… LOL
@ Vanir I’m a bit confused. How many “redpill ideologists” are there? And what proportion of them have had the time and inclination to comment here? Have you spoken to any in real life? Generalisation much…? From what I’ve seen in the Manosphere, and in real life, most men WILL consider women inferior in many ways. The most obvious is that most women, on average, are physically smaller and weaker than most men, on average. And that most women, on average, tend to be controlled by their emotions than most men, on average, who tend to be less visibly emotional.… Read more »
@ Newlyaloof/Kobayashi,
Thanks for the link (ZH – good website BTW). Will Ray Kurzwell’s technological singularity bail us out or could DB trigger a “Havenstein Moment” and pop the global bond market bubble resulting in an eventual hyperinflation???
http://treatyofrapallo.weebly.com/uploads/2/6/4/4/26449593/4850310.jpg
…..and, perhaps more importantly, what is the woman thinking in that photo? lol
“are indifferent to women’s desire for autonomy” – SJF Not gonna bother with commenting on most of your attempt to justify your sociopathic desire to attain control over women – but this stood out – in that you don’t even try to rewrite my claim – just re-word it. If you are indifferent to another human beings desire for autonomy, for freedom and right to own and control their own life, if it matters nothing to you – then you do not respect it. And that makes you a monster. As for femininity, it needs to be coupled with strength… Read more »
In the series The Affair, I’ve only seen up to season 2 episode 6, they start to pick at the subject that some women just have a raw sexuality that ultimately defines them… Maybe I should watch the rest of them.
Colbert
perhaps more importantly, what is the woman thinking in that photo?
Math is hard….!
I see what you did there.
You spelled complementary wrong.
@ Mineter
Bravo.
Well spoken and thank you.
@ Sentient/Scribb,
Years ago I read a book called The Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff about the Weimar Republic of Germany. The similarities to Germany then and the west today are ominous indeed.
we are living in Weimerica
“bc if you are NOT legally married (when the kid is born) you have NO rights as the father (unless you are specifically legally determined/ ORDERED by the court to ‘be’ the father… get that paternity test, yo!…lol) but that doesn’t stop you having to pay child support, (that just happens on the mother’s word that you are the father…) it just means that you don’t have any rights to the kid… those rights are ALL in the mother…” this is why brad pitt is better off that he got married. At least now he will likely get partial physical… Read more »
@Vanir: you’re being daft: autonomy means you are not in relationship. If a woman is in relationship to anyone she is not autonomous.
Come on–add some value to the comments rather than sputtering trite bile.
“You spelled complementary wrong.”
-SJF
Great. The gender-fascists are also grammar nazis. Oh joy!
Still doesn’t change that complEmentary is just “redpill-pc” terminology for; “women are / should be unequal / inferior”
“we are living in Weimerica”
I agree.
“If a woman is in relationship to anyone she is not autonomous.”
-SJB
Unless you surgically attach her to the man’s nervous system; yes she is. (Goes both ways, obviously, a man is also an autonomous being – *even* in a relationship).
“Great. The gender-fascists are also grammar nazis. Oh joy!”
“Fascists and Nazis” – finally a pertinent contribution to the current discussion by Vanir!
autonomous: the state of existing or acting separately from others; independence.
unless she’s just a fb or fwb she is not.
and she doesn’t want to be.
faggot.
@Vanir: Very good. You’ve concluded that men and women are autonomous. If a woman follows a man, that is her tacit consent she desires to be led.
“What drives most men spare is the bullshit about how strong and independent women are” – Mineter In my experience. What drives *misogynist* men crazy is whenever women prove that it isn’t bullshit. “You appear to conflate men’s “domination” with a man’s refusal to yield to the woman’s wishes in every instance.” – Mineter No. I conflate it with a man’s expectation of the woman to yield to his wishes in every circumstance. And with his expectation that his wishes and position should generally be superior to hers. “men want to control what happens to them in their relationships with… Read more »
Our honorable gentlecreature will, if permitted by the student life consultants, happily assume the position of university “yes means yes” complaint officer/investigator/punisher, fighting cisheterosexism one expelled drunk beta boy at a time. And yes that is a danger to college life, since those Torquemadas work their way into the system, they are not elected, chosen or directly appointed. (Ze will find out to zxits chagrin that gaining the post of Spanish Inquisition is itself a choice political plum, for which one must pay dues, work scour and scrape. Drug gang initiations are less demeaning. Virtuoso virtue signaling and doubleplusgoodthink tweets… Read more »
Godwin’s Law is an Internet adage asserting that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazism or Hitler approaches. There are many corollaries to Godwin’s law. For example, there is a tradition in Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin’s law. Godwin’s law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent’s argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made… Read more »
@Colbert Shhhhh! Don’t interrupt an attention whore when she’s wasting days of her ever-decreasing biological clock fighting the patriarchy FOR FREE. Feminism’s foot soldiers don’t even get minimum wage for their efforts! Talk about a wage gap between capitalism and feminism! lol!
“autonomous: the state of existing or acting separately from others; independence.”
– PP
Yes. And a human being does this, even if in a relationship with another human being – unless before-mentioned surgical attachment has been carried out.
“faggot”
– PP
I’m sure I am.
Oh c’mon, Vanir! I’m not feelin’ the love. You didn’t answer ALL of the questions I posed to you. What you have failed to address speaks volumes more about you than the little bits you picked out of context.
“Can’t stop the porn though, Van”
– FFRM
Considering most here – likely* – vote Trump or republican / conservative in general – you’re probably doing more to stop porn than feminists ever will (we’re in disagreement and porn in itself is not a huge issue, mostly).
Note that I don’t want to start a general politics / current election debate. This is just an observation.
* I could of course be wrong, but I doubt I am.
“You didn’t answer ALL of the questions I posed to you.”
– Mineter
Believe it or not. I *have* other things to do.
“I’m sure I am.”
i know.
“Believe it or not. I *have* other things to do.”
prove it.
@ Newlyaloof, “Shhhhh! Don’t interrupt an attention whore when she’s wasting days of her ever-decreasing biological clock fighting the patriarchy FOR FREE. Feminism’s foot soldiers don’t even get minimum wage for their efforts! Talk about a wage gap between capitalism and feminism! lol!” LOL. Yeah, but she’s getting something out of it. You’re right on that. Her attention whoring is getting her that emotional push/pull negging by alpha dudes that she’s secretly loving. You know you love it Vanir! This is porn for you! I’ll bet Sentient’s contribution of the woman getting spanked was one of your high points these… Read more »
Trump can’t stop the porn, Van. Neither can Hillary. Neither can you. Not the fine folk at Feministe. Not the Churchians. Catherine MacKinnon tried and FAILED. It’s too big. It pervades all, and infests all, it invades your dreams.
(well mine, anyway)
Plus if you’re against porn you’re misogynist because sex workers have a union and are pushing for better working conditions and have to feed their children. Who are you to say they can’t?
@Sun Wukong Predictable isn’t the same as boring. Sure, when I hear sex/game/relationship talk I can typically predict where it’s going with a fair degree of accuracy. I just see that as having an accurate view of the territory; it’s no different than being able to observe how women and men tend to be shaped, for example. The interest is in the nuances, which are specific to the individual. Same thing with, say, a soccer game. Once you get to the upper levels, the basic strategies and moves are well-practiced and predictable. But it can still be interesting if you… Read more »
We are just delivering tingles now, guys. We gave it – the Vanir thing – a chance to engage thoughtfully and to offer an actual argument, but it can’t. It can help us understand the feral, deformed mindset of our overlords though. We’ve gotten to the point where they essentially demand that we be seen as violent, destructive and morally depraved from the outset. We are “the deplorables” – even though I won’t vote this time around because I simply cannot pull the lever for the likes of Trump. I have too much self-respect. But of course, Hillary is far… Read more »
@Blax
“Jane’s girlfriends always ask Jane what she sees in you, and it’s hard for Jane to describe to their satisfaction….”
Yes! That’s the sort of thing I was implying. Way to evoke it, ya folklorin’ sonuvabitch! 😀
Well, since we’re still on this topic let’s flip the telescope around for a second:
http://i.imgur.com/aTRSpoV.jpg
It’s meme shit so grains of salt etc, but it’s the sort of thing that happens.
“What’s saddest is that the likes of Vanir don’t even realize it is the thug, the SS trooper, the fascist, the oppressor here. ”
-scribblert
Relax. You’re quite safe. It’s YOUR side that discusses how to best isolate ppl and manipulate their minds – not mine.
Any violence from my side will simple be in self defense – to keep YOU from taking/violating our rights and freedoms.
I have no interest in oppressing you – I simply wish to keep you from oppressing women.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkcbxjWG9Mc
Here you go Forge…
regardless of the “who shot John” of the who left who… here is the Millennial EMO Anthem… the loss of Father… the death of Masculinity…
And here we are today.
What will you do?
Summary of Vanir’s viewpoint:
Women should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, which means they should NEVER, under any circumstances, have any form of obligation or responsibility.
This is what Vanir refers to as “autonomy.”
Which is fine if a woman wants to be single and childless for her whole life.
Let them dig their own grave.
Vanir
http://www.eastonline.eu/images/blogger/sognocinese/rivoluzione_culturale_maozedong.jpg
Again… I don’t see much isolation?
For those who would rather read: Father Of Mine” Father of mine Tell me where have you been You know I just closed my eyes My whole world disappeared Father of mine Take me back to the day When I was still your golden boy Back before you went away I remember the blue skies, walking the block I loved it when you held me high I loved to hear you talk You would take me to the movie You would take me to the beach Take me to a place inside that is so hard to reach Father of… Read more »
@ Vanir
“I have no interest in oppressing you – I simply wish to keep you from oppressing women.”
You do realize that claiming women are autonomous, while claiming that they have no responsibility or obligation to make decisions about anything, is a contradiction, right?
@ Scribb,
Her preoccupation with labeling us as fascists and Nazis is just a cluster H projection of her own internalized fascist feminist ideology. I think we all can recognize the psychological pattern now; so I’m just stating the obvious.
Maybe our FEMA Camp guards will look like this! I doubt it.
“Her choices are her own to make.”
Unless you disagree with them.
“Yes. And a human being does this, even if in a relationship with another human being – unless before-mentioned surgical attachment has been carried out.”
Ergo, all you have to do to find the elimination of autonomy is find surgical attachment. To find advocacy of elimination of autonomy, find advocacy of surgical attachment.
3 . . .2. . .1. . .Go!
“they should NEVER, under any circumstances, have any form of obligation or responsibility.” – Softek They should never have any obligation or responsibility decided for them by some man – be he their boyfriend, husband of father of her children. True. What women can and cannot do is not for some wannabe-patriarch to decide. “Which is fine if a woman wants to be single and childless for her whole life.” – Softek Women with an ounce of self-respect, who wish to reproduce and/or have a relationship, will still do so – but on their own terms, not yours. Their terms… Read more »
“You do realize that claiming women are autonomous, while claiming that they have no responsibility or obligation to make decisions”
– Softek
I haven’t claimed that. I only state that it’s not for you/men to decide what those obligations and decisions are to be.
http://66.media.tumblr.com/dca630088931d78405287c2e71e7104d/tumblr_nviaai6B4o1uqdkpzo1_1280.jpg
Poor girl — just the beginning of a life of misery under the heel of the patriarchal pencil.
Ooops, a couple of “hims” snuck in, I never proof my comments here carefully as it’s always just stream of consciousness. Fyi, loving the dialog about ltr and kids. I’m getting a lot out of it. As an OSG who is playing with the young hotties, I get it. But I also fucked up my marriage by being the incompetent Natural that YaReally mentions. I did do some real dread to my ex-wife at one point and she snapped back to being in love with me and being a good wife, but I never understood what she was doing was… Read more »
SomeAttentionWhore: “I have ‘other” things to do … oh wait – comment … I have ‘other’ things to do … oh wait – comment … I have ‘other’ things to do … oh wait – comment.” lol.
@Scribble, No I don’t think you’re crazy. I just read the book Shadow Men, so I think you are spot on.
A woman’s perspective: “He understands he can’t win a fight with a woman, and certainly not with a woman who signals her femininity as strongly as Clinton did last night. Trump has some massive strikes left in his arsenal. Benghazi. The Clinton Foundation. Her private server. Immigration. The Second Amendment. Death Taxes. Bill’s rape roster. Big strikes. If and when he pulls them, he is risking the paradox of fighting with women. Nailing her to the wall can backfire on him badly, because many people simply cannot stomach seeing a woman take a massive punch from a man. No matter… Read more »
“He understands he can’t win a fight with a woman”… In 8th grade, a proto bull dyke 200lb “girl” called out a 145lb boy, to a fight… now this kid was no nerd, he was a pretty tough kid, but he was faced with exactly this problem. The proto bull dyke kept it up and eventually in an empty class room (ha!) they squared off with many of us watching… and basically he pushed her around but she was slugging him in the face.. he never teed off on her and clocked her. double bind. so either he “hit a… Read more »
@ Vanir “Women with an ounce of self-respect who wish to reproduce and/or have a relationship, will still do so – but on their own terms, not yours.” You do realize that men have the power to do the same thing, right? i.e., “Men with an ounce of self-respect who wish to reproduce and/or have a relationship, will still do so — but on their own terms, not yours.” So let me get this straight: Women have the right to impose their will and their terms for a relationship on men, but not the other way around, right? This is… Read more »
Vanir
“Divorce may be a raw deal for men, but marriage is a raw deal for women – even without being stuck with a dominating asshole.”
Could you explain how marriage is a raw deal for women?
@ Sentient Funny how feminists scream for “equality,” and yet the ENTIRE feminist ideology is based on double-standards in women’s favor. It’s okay for a woman to hit a man, but if he hits her back? He’s a misogynist. He should know that he’s stronger and that fighting back would be unfairly imposing his will on her. i.e., he should KNOW that men and women are not physically equal, and have the discretion to not hit a woman back. But women aren’t *equally* required to have any discretion, and can hit a man wantonly because well, women are weaker. I… Read more »
“Why is it so hard for you to accept that women are free to choose what they want?”
Projection. It is demanding what it doesn’t have: strength of character.
@Sentient / all That brings to mind something I’ve danced around before without saying directly. Jack Donovan often says that a group of men must ‘start the world’ to make things happen. I think that an individual man must start the world when he creates a family, and this task is of the HIGHEST importance. Because that world will BE the world for the child, until (if you do it right) about the age of 12. At which point not much important about them changes. Not to get all sentimental here, but that very concept is the origin of the… Read more »
Or hey, a vid for those that prefer a listen. I’d advise just listening tho, these guys are a lot better with music than video.
https://youtu.be/9rs-or7As0k
@Softie – Vanir isn’t here to engage substantively. I suggest moving on, we’ve learned all we can from it. One little tidbit to chew on. Women are of course capable of much independent action, and I enjoy women who aren’t weak and powerless. But have you ever been in a life threatening situation where women are around? I have on several occasions and they immediately expect any man in the vicinity to protect them. I remember those skanky hoes in Philly who got robbed after a night of clubbing and they were complaining about why men didn’t come to their… Read more »
@ kfg
Basically, it’s like taking a shit test seriously. Which is an automatic fail.
The only difference is here we’re at least sharing ideas for the sake of learning, and other men who are lurking can benefit too.
Handling someone like Vanir in real life would be completely different.
Mostly a complete lack of words and walking in the opposite direction.Or hitting up the hot and willing 20 something standing two feet away instead.
@Vanir
“Relax. You’re quite safe. It’s YOUR side that discusses how to best isolate ppl and manipulate their minds – not mine.
Any violence from my side will simple be in self defense – to keep YOU from taking/violating our rights and freedoms.
I have no interest in oppressing you – I simply wish to keep you from oppressing women.”
Right, on your side you discuss how to best gaslight and keep a co-worker out of the mix while undermining his personal autonomy.
@ scrib You’re right, you’re right…I’ve gotten a bit carried away. I should keep that tendency of mine in mind, too. Taking a shit test seriously is a guaranteed fail. My mom complained about bringing my dad pudding one day. He told her if she didn’t like it she could leave and go get a full time job and support herself. She didn’t say anything after that and then brought him his pudding. When I was growing up he got laid off 3 times and every job he had he was working 60-80 hours a week. My mom didn’t have… Read more »
Handling someone like Vanir in real life would be completely different. Having done so recently, I can say that my reaction went from ‘hmm maybe i should open her, she’s a bit cute’ to ‘completely ignore her oh god, she’s a walking lawsuit’ as soon as I heard her talking about her job as a ‘consent advocate’ at a college, start virtue-signalling by proudly using alternative pronouns when telling a story about some genderless gentlecreature she knew, and spoke of how sad and terrible it was that she still needed to explain consent to people in 2016. Good thing she… Read more »
Vanir
“Relax. You’re quite safe. It’s YOUR side that discusses how to best isolate ppl and manipulate their minds – not mine.
Your side discusses how to eliminate 90% of men, dearie.
Now run along, false rape reports won’t file themselves, you know.
@ SJF
Thanks for the recommendation of “When I Say No I Feel Guilty” by the way.
Everyone here should read that book if they haven’t already. It’s awesome. As well as No More Mr. Nice Guy.
@ Scrib
Isn’t it great all that stuff is in the past? So glad that shit is over with. One thing that keeps me going is the joy of knowing that I will never again be the person I was a year ago, and I have something new to look forward to every day.
“It’s a really fascinating phenomenon. One I’ve come across yet again today.”
@Sentient
haha, good story. My friends and I used to call these “je ne sais quoi girls” Must be subcomms. 😛
Veneer doesn’t understand the difference between “leading” and “controlling”. This is typical in feminists and their White Knight sockpuppets.
So we can expect this particular little Manbooby troll to stay on a very narrow “men bad, women good” message, not quite like a bot but very close, rather than actually engaging.
Because Veneer just isn’t all that smart. Really. Kind of dumb, actually, and not very interesting.
@Sentient “total SJW as well… ” so, ‘sex positive’ then…lol… ” One day probably a month or so of this looking going on, we ended up seated next to each other and she was alone ” who sat by whom?…lol “and she was alone and I ran some basic laser eye game on her and she gave me her situation and I probably teased her a bit too hard… maybe flustered her a bit, maybe annoyed her a bit. ” spike those emotions, yo!…lol “Anyhow she says she is moving in a month or two ” did you spot this… Read more »
@ Forge There was a hot girl who lived near me that I tried Gaming a while back. I stopped because as great as it might’ve been to fuck her, she was a die-hard feminist and liberal. I just couldn’t deal with it and just imagining hearing her talk about any of that in person was enough to make my dick shrink. The statuses she posted on FB constantly about how women are mistreated and how she was ‘traumatized’ by a man cat calling her was enough to make me run for the hills. Personality-wise, women that are anti-feminists and… Read more »
@scribblerg
“I even over-dreaded in the end, as she became convinced I was having an affair so started fucking her backup guy. ”
no, that’s just what she told you, so that her cheating would be YOUR fault…
good luck!
Yareally being called a gamma and agreeing with vagnear troll, I love these threads lol
I have dated feminist and non-feminist women and it doesn’t seem to make that much of a difference in a LTR. What really drives things is power within the relationship.
@HABD – No, I don’t think so. I think she concluded I was on my way out the door as I had given her another ulitimatum “get in or get the fuck out of this marriage”. And I had met someone else who was very interested in me who I was resisting, but flirting with a lot so she detected a new vibe from me she never had before. I’ve heard married Red Pill guys mention how you have to use dread carefully with high SMV women, and in this case I think I should have been more circumspect. Remember,… Read more »
I looked up what gamma means on the internet and now I have no Idea what gamma means.
“there’s a shit load of pain hiding behind that outcome… but it IS inevitable (largely bc of physics…lol)” I know this isn’t an economics forum, but why does everyone think this is going to happen? There’s still slack in the labor market. 100% debt to gdp isn’t unmanageable. Technology is deflationary. If the economy picks up steam I don’t see why the Fed won’t be able to control inflation. It just doesn’t make sense to me why everyone thinks the hyperinflation boogedy man is always just around the corner. I genuinely want to understand your position, so please don’t jump… Read more »
Done feeding the troll. It has made it very clear that “equality” to it means I can only have a relationship on the woman’s terms and I have no right to any terms of my own. That’s what passes for “equality” in its brain. Been there, done that, threw out the t-shirt… I was a YMG, then I became a YDG, then an ODG, now I think of myself as more an OSG. No kids, fortunately. But I can see both sides of the debate from here. I go dancing and I see the young women are plugged into social… Read more »
@Forge “I’m trying to help YaReally bang out technical details, because who knows maybe the most optimal way to do things now looks a bit different on the externals. But if you don’t have the ability to BE THE WORLD, do not have a family. Because that is what you will be to them.” that clarifies a proto-thought i had on this whole ‘game the system to have a kid’ idea… whom are we trying to minimize the risk FOR?… the father or the kid?… or both?… bc THAT answer might change how we approach the issue… (which i still… Read more »
@scribblerg @HABD – No, I don’t think so. I think she concluded I was on my way out the door as I had given her another ulitimatum “get in or get the fuck out of this marriage”. And I had met someone else who was very interested in me who I was resisting, but flirting with a lot so she detected a new vibe from me she never had before. I’ve heard married Red Pill guys mention how you have to use dread carefully with high SMV women, and in this case I think I should have been more circumspect.… Read more »
” ‘being careful with dread with high SMV women or they will leave’ is the same problem that YaReally is trying to solve in that ‘have a kid’ hypothetical… ”
Ya Really defined the problem in terms of being workable for the 90%, and then defined them out of his plan.
https://twitter.com/TheMeninism/status/781933136041144320
Someone has created on eheck of a botnet out of cameras, DVRs and other junk on the Internet of Things and is using it for DDoS. It is trivial i its output : 990 G-bit/sec. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/27/152463_hacked_cameras_deliver_990gbps_recordbreaking_dual_ddos/ This is an example of “It wasn’t supposed to be like this”. The Internet of Things was supposed to enable Dilberts in office cubes to turn on their pizza oven from their phone so that they could heat dinner as soon as they walked in the door. Or adjust their HVAC thermostat slightly just for the fun if it. Not the creation of a… Read more »
Scrib No personal experience with too much dread, but I’ve heard it said quite often that women don’t mind as much that you fuck other women, it’s that they’ll be replaced, demoted like HABD says, or that she’ll lose your provisioning. I read this article a few weeks ago and spent the last few minutes rooting through my browser history (yikes lol) for it. Seems pretty relevant. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/07/homo-hypocritus-mates.html Regardless of your feelings on overcomingbias (I think he’s pretty polarizing in the manosphere) it’s an interesting read. Idk what your relationship with your ex’s “threat” was like, but maybe the ex… Read more »
“Women have the right to impose their will and their terms for a relationship on men, but not the other way around, right?” – Softek Nope. Simply that men don’t have the right to impose their will and terms on women. No more, no less. “what society thinks feminism is vs. what feminism actually is” – Rollo Nice try. Don’t fly after you straight out state that you think men should “correct” (dominate, control, mold) women. “I should add here that women DO need the correction of men.” -Rollo It’s men’s attempt at oppression feminists seek to bash – not… Read more »
@Andy – With respect, let me ask you a question. What’s so hard about building a big, complex database? I mean, I have the manuals and I know how to program in a couple of languages, I can just figure it out, right? Lol, that’s what your question sounds like to me. We don’t have “slack in the labor market” – we have the largest number of people out of the workforce since women joined the labor force. 1 in 6 men between 22 and 54 are out of the workforce – 10 million men, poof. In their prime earning… Read more »
““Women have the right to impose their will and their terms for a relationship on men, but not the other way around, right?”
– Softek
Nope. Simply that men don’t have the right to impose their will and terms on women. No more, no less.”
In other words, “yes.”
@scribblerg
So, you’re saying there’s going to be another recession, not that there’s going to be some insane hyperinflation event? I could buy the recession idea.
Manbooby troll Venir
It’s men’s attempt at oppression feminists seek to bash – not men.
Of course feminists of all stages have defined “oppression” so broadly, they now seek to criminalize maleness itself.
This is what desperate 3rd-wave feminists seek. This is why they celebrate the likes of Mary Daly, who once mused that 90% of men should be elminated.
Elimination of men is what Veneer wants.
“In other words, “yes.”” -kfg Nope. That you can’t impose your will on someone, does not mean are imposing their will on you. All you have are two people where neither can dominate the other. Where both are in charge of themselves, but not the other. That’s it. No dominance from either part. No control from either part. No “correction” from either part. Just two autonomous, adult human beings. I realize that must sound horrible to someone who apparently think their dick will shrivel up and fall of if they can’t grind a woman beneath their heel – but there… Read more »
Simply that men don’t have the right to impose their will and terms on women. No more, no less.
Problems getting a date because you are obese?
“they now seek to criminalize maleness itself.”
– Anon
Considering what’s illegal is stalking, rape, violence, harassment, etc. That paints a rather bleak image of what you think “maleness” is…
Dear bad-at-biology commenter: it’s not the heel which grinds the woman.
If reality disagrees with a woman, it’s wrong and needs to be mob shamed.
“Elimination of men is what Veneer wants.”
-Anon
Sure. Not wanting misogynist men to try and impose their control on women, means I want all men dead. Wanting women strong and independent and not tamed and broken for men’s benefit, means I want all that is male eradicated. Being a feminist also means I agree with every thing every feminist has said, ever.
(sarcasm, btw)
Come on. You’re smarter than *this*.
“No dominance from either part. No control from either part. No “correction” from either part. Just two autonomous, adult human beings.”
Sigh. Last time I feed the troll, but you need to realize that women unconsciously test for dominance. If the man cedes “hand” to the woman she becomes dominant. If the woman is dominant in the relationship she loses attraction and the relationship fails.
There is no such thing as equal in a man/woman relationship. It’s a fantasy.
“That you can’t impose your will on someone, does not mean are imposing their will on you.”
Dem goalposts are frickin’ fast little buggers, ain’t dey doe?
And why are you using tools of the misogynistic patriarchy anyway?
“If the man cedes “hand” to the woman she becomes dominant.”
-Andy
I don’t care about your ideological justification for dominance. Might as well say that if the woman cedes “hand” to the man, he becomes dominant – therefore she never can and must always keep him in check.
There is always a dominant person in every relationship you’ll have in life, regardless of the sexes involved or the nature of the relationship. If teaching men to be the dominant party so that they and the people around them can be happy and successful is “misogyny”, then that word means something so different from its dictionary definition that the people using it are no longer speaking English. Might as well just start stringing random syllables together and calling it Shakespeare. @Forge I can’t figure whether your female Title IX officer or the male one I talked to is more… Read more »