Before I dive in here today it’s going to be important to put things into perspective with respect to an Old Married Guy becoming Red Pill aware and then applying what he’s learned in his marriage. In the last few comment threads the discussion has veered to what exactly the state of “monogamy” (if it can be called that) will look like in the next few decades given Red Pill awareness, Open Hypergamy, the progression of technologies that conflict with (or exacerbate) our evolved capacity to reproduce, etc.
The conversation tends to be a back and forth between what a more feasible and pragmatic approach to long-term relationships might be. The Young Single Guys make a (rather convincing) case for some form of men reserving the option of non-exclusivity; to take on short term lovers should the opportunity present itself – even if for just protecting a man’s state of Frame. Dread, being what it is, would necessarily be a mutually understood cornerstone of this arrangement.
The OMGs who’ve had the benefit of experience with respect to living with women (and in some cases divorces), rearing children (for better or worse) then offer up the realities of what a pLTR might be limited by with respect to actually living in an arrangement like this and the legal ramifications it leaves men open to.
Hashing out what Marriage 3.0 will or should look like is a discussion I’ll reserve for the next essay. For now I think it’s going to be important for that debate to recognize that since Red Pill awareness, in the intersexual respect, is a relatively new social awareness there’s always going to be differing experiences with it.
For the young men who’ve had the benefit of being Red Pill aware and learning Game, courtesy of communication technology and the experiences of countless other older men, it may sound kind of mundane when an Old Married Guy (OMG) finally ‘gets it’ after being Blue Pill for so long. But while you may never consider getting married in the future, you will no doubt get older and hopefully wiser in a way that your elders never had the benefit of. The reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to do just this; to teach men what to expect from women and their sexual strategies and prioritization at their various phases of maturity. However, I would be remiss not to take into consideration what YSGs relate about the realities of today’s sexual marketplace. I think between us we have a very powerful knowledge-base.
As I said, for YSGs, it may seem mundane for a formerly Blue Pill OMG to kick up his wife’s sexual interest with his new Red Pill awareness, but consider that to him the Red Pill is an exciting answer to a long struggle. Likewise, an older guy reeling from an ugly divorce and rebuilding an even better life and sex life with Red Pill awareness is a fantastic feeling that I think is hard for YSGs to empathize with.
In my Stalling for Time essay I quoted reader YaReally and his understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace. I won’t re-quote it here, but the gist of it was how women of this generation are so predisposed to the attentions that social media offers them. The immediacy of social affirmation is just an Instagram post away and Beta orbiters are now a utility women simply take for granted.
It’s important to understand this in the light of how women’s psyches interpret instantaneous affirmation, as well as instantaneous indignation, attention and emotional consolation from both Beta orbiters and ‘you go girl’ girlfriends. I should also point out that there’s an even uglier side to this equation for women and girls who find themselves social outcasts. The cruel venom from haters is equally as instantaneous and likewise women’s evolved psyches struggle to process this.
As is the theme of this series, we have a situation wherein technological advancement outpaces human capacity to adequately process how it is affecting us. In this case we have women’s solipsistic nature that prevents the insight necessary to self-govern themselves with regard to how instant gratification of their base needs for attention is affecting their personalities and the decisions they make because of it. Prior to the communication age women’s need for interpersonal affirmation was generally limited to a small social circle and the opportunities to satisfy it were precious and private. It used to require far more investment on the part of women to connect interpersonally. But in the space of just two generations the social media age has made this affirmation an expect part of a woman’s daily life.
On top of this, we find ourselves in a time when feminine-primacy in our social structure makes criticizing or even making casual, constructive, observations of this self-gratifying vanity on par with misogyny for men. Women cannot hear what men wont tell them, and women have far less incentive to self-examine the consequences of what this affirmation-satisfying attention is working in them.
The Open Hypergamy Future
I get what the Young Single Guys are saying, I really do. I linked this article in a recent comment and after reading through it and author’s blog I can’t help but sympathize with the YSG’s grasp of the modern dating scene and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage. There is no upside to monogamous commitment, but the real kicker is that this condition is what women plan for and would hope for their own daughters.
Now, I understand Emma Johnson is another click-bait outrage broker, but is the sentiment her reader relates in raising her daughter to expect to be a single mother as an ideal state all that difficult or shocking to believe from women in this era?
My dream for my daughter is that she be in a loving relationship, and have a good ex-husband who really does a great job with the kids, 50 percent of the time.
People forget the joys of divorce — sharing your kids without guilt and having alone/me time.
[…]I also have time to exercise, enjoy vacations that are relaxing and involve lots of book-reading, and I have had time to nurture a relationship with my new husband, with fewer of the stresses of blended families.
The idealized state is one in which I outlined in The Myth of the Good Guy:
The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.
This is a new step in Open Hypergamy, the acknowledgement and proud embrace of women’s Hypergamous sexual strategy is not enough. The open expectation that one man will father and support her children while another will satisfy her sexually and appreciatively is not enough. The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s. We’re left to presume that the preferred norm for raising boys will be in teaching them it’s their responsibility to accommodate this norm.
The plan is not simply to end the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy with the “Equal partner, someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” The plan is to leave that well-providing Beta once he’s been locked into indefinite utility and take up with a sexier husband with fewer parental stresses.
Yet, despite the overtness of women’s Hypergamy, men still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to them. Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest.
Whether by our conditioning or some intrinsic idealism, we want to believe in the earnestness of the Old Set of Books in the face of New Book women openly telling us “You stupid men, this is what we plan to do to you from the outset. Naked, open Hypergamy and all its machinations is what I will teach my daughters and grand daughters to do to your sons and grandsons. And you will take it and accept your Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks roles in all of it because you’ll never get past your inherent idealism that we might not do all of this.”
We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.
Primary LTRs
The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control.
Even a PUA like Mystery believed he could maintain a literal harem in some kind of live-in pLTR. And then there are the men who subscribe to the Charles Bukowski school of intersexual relations – in the right socioeconomic conditions this pLTR is realtively possible, but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.
I’ve locked horns with more than a few women who want to take me to task over my debating that human beings are not naturally monogamous. From a social perspective, loose monogamy and women’s inherent need for cuckoldry has always conflicted with our more or less successful human progress based on monogamous marriage. This is changing right along with the latest technologies that afford it to. As such, men are also forced to adapt and improvise with women’s inabilities to process these changes and the rapidity with which the next ones occur.
The old gals always like to tout that western society is the result of our agrarian roots and monogamous way of life. This is ironic since it’s women themselves who’ve fought tooth and nail to destroy exactly this ‘successful’ set up. Ruthless, open Hypergamy is now something to be proud of; something to instruct our daughters to utilize for their own solipsistic, selfish betterment at men’s expense – and to feel no shame for it, but rather expect it as the future norm.
It’s now time for men to either accept and adapt to this, or to form our own response to it in a way that not only benefits our interests, but the interests of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept their counsel about the affairs of women. We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity. Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.
There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society. Today this is a bold statement, one that could likely bring consequences to man’s life, but it’s only a bold thought because we’ve allowed women and their imperatives define the Frame of our social order for so long now. The socio-intersexual conditions we find ourselves in today are the direct result of women’s inability to process rapid social changes. As men we need to collectively recognize this. We need to recognize also that our social state is the result of allowing women to set a social framework that indentures men, that calls single motherhood and Hypergamous choices normative ideals.
We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes.
Well, how many articles here are FRs? Articles or comments? If you mean commments, “it depends”. Some threads have few FR’s, some are chock full of them. Some FR’s are short, some are long. I think it would be great to have a forum so that the FRs could be there for the guys who want to benefit from them, to be honest. They aren’t responsive to the articles Rollo posts and clutter up the responsive comments as it is. Eh, I disagree. In general I don’t find it a challenge to skim past something that I do not have… Read more »
Oh I don’t find FRs offensive, it’s just that at times there are a lot of them and they aren’t really responsive to the article posted by Rollo, even tangentially.
@Dr. Flange – Laying it down, nicely done. But here’s another scenario to chew on. World War III. Economic collapse. Race wars. These are not nearly as improbable in the next 20 years as many people think. Social change tends to happen “a little at at time, and then all at once.” It’s very likely we’ll see a material reset of very large magnitude. The wealth we see slushing around us is a temporal aberration, and mostly illusory. Just think about how many billions we fling at universities – it’s unimaginable. And utterly unsustainable. Ever notice how many women work… Read more »
“Everyone loves LARPing about the red pill here, and talks about how they’re immune to social conditioning…but they’re scared to even TALK about how far the rabbit hole might ACTUALLY go if we throw all social conditioning off and triple-down on the iron clad core concepts of hypergamy/attraction that we’ve all been reading here for 5 years.” The OMG’s are not actually larping here. For you to suggest that we are is just you being sour grapes. And we are full-blooded red pill. You are targeting something that may not be assailable (to undertake with the purpose of mastering). YSG’s… Read more »
kfg More generally, post-menopausal women. They were the keepers of women’s heritage, the skills and behaviours of the woman clan. The old family recipes. The tricks of keeping a marriage together through tough times. More prone to emotional stability and logical thinking within the women’s circle and in interaction with the political sphere of men. Sometimes. And sometimes just sillier older versions of the silly girls they once were. I’ve seen this personally. And they were the ones who worked to keep a lid on the young chickadees, keep them off the CC and direct them toward solid husbands. Sometimes.… Read more »
“Sometimes.”
Sure. I’m talking about a general class in generalities.
Like “men are the fighters.” But sometimes they’re cowardly little shits who sell out their own people.
I expected such criticism from somebody, because it isn’t invalid.
It isn’t data, just a modern retelling of an old tale merged with an old diary, but The 13th Warrior has been mentioned here before by myself and others as an example of a good man’s movie.
Consulting the old woman is a key scene.
<> Vanir, I’m going to say this in the simplest way possible. 1. Dominance desires & requires submission. 2. Submission is a voluntary, consensual decision freely made. Thus the Dominant/submissive relationship dynamic is one that is entered into BY CHOICE by both parties. (This is irrespective of gender.) Thus there is no coercion and no “criminal” manipulation (which laws are those, btw?). If coercion occurs, then that is (by definition) *coercion* and NOT dominance. These two different words are used to describe two very different things, despite your attempt to conflate the two. Also, an individual man can be Dominant… Read more »
Lets take back, for the sake of of our future. Let the fire burn in your balls. Thank Rollo
@SJF – For the win with this jewel wrt dominance and Vanir. “…most will never be in a position to enjoy the sublime pleasures of dominance over women. A complete lack of acquaintance with dominating women, and a dearth of opportunity to do so, psychologically castrates weaker men until they embrace, at least in theory, the opposite of what they truly desire. The embrace of anti-desire, the dark matter of joylessness, offers respite from an otherwise unrelenting daily reminder of their sexual and romantic failure.” This may be the most concise definition of what the cuck and submissive man are… Read more »
Dammit, the paragraph from Vanir that I quoted at the beginning of my post got eaten. Here it is again – “The only unacceptable path is one that is due to coercion and criminal manipulation carried out by gender supremacists who can’t take that a free humanity don’t conform to their vision of ‘proper gender roles’.”
Just ran across this. Haven’t listened to it yet, but the title alone makes it apropos; You Can’t Alpha The System:
Re: The New Model – As an old guy chasing young pussy, divorced and with a child, I find myself in mixed on what’s coming from YaReally and the OMGs. I guess the question I have is does Ya think that relationship game as played by OMGs won’t work on the 2016 woman in her mid-20s? Yet I also think the OMGs simply cannot understand what it’s like without putting their dicks into one of these young hotties. To go through their phones with them, laughing at the chodes. And getting sexy pix from them like it’s nothing, or some… Read more »
@ scrib Government take-over would be the most likely, agreed…and if we reverted back to the “Old Set of Books,” we’d have a lot more shit to worry about, like surviving independently or staying alive in a FEMA camp. On a lighter note: IMO, Monogamy/marriage etc. only REALLY matter for men who know that they want to have kids, 100%. Then I could see how it could get tricky debating between getting married or not. I can see what Ya is suggesting, and also Blax/SJF and the like. OMG vs. YSG. This all seemed so distant to me, but then… Read more »
kfg Like “men are the fighters.” But sometimes they’re cowardly little shits who sell out their own people. Yes. But the law of large numbers tells us some things. And it doesn’t tell us much about Wise Women. Because frankly..there aren’t many. Maybe that’s why the writer of Proverbs goes on and on in verse 31? More precious than rubies. Minirant: “Wise Woman” is I admit a term that I came to loathe some time ago, the umpteenth time some purple-encrusted post-menopausal Boomer feminist invoked it to rationalize that something really, really, really obviously stupid was actually Very Wise…in the… Read more »
Phil o Spher, let’s wait and see if Vanir comes back for more batting practice or not. IMO it’s a 50-50 chance, on the one hand Manbooby Futrelle’s bois are notorious for being easily butthurt, on the other hand Veneer seems like a truly dedicated pedestalizing White Night incel frustrated chump so he may be hoping to get some Beta orbiter points by taking on the Fearsome Beasts in their lair.
Also: Isn’t monogamy, at least in some form, what we’re alluding to when we talk about “correcting” women? This is the one conflict I’ve had with TRP for a long time now. Isn’t the modern state of affairs, and women’s reckless abandon with sex, a GOOD thing if you’re an Alpha male? Wouldn’t this mean more access to sex than ever if you’re in the top 10%, which you can work your way into by learning how to run super tight Game, working out, etc.? YaReally’s assessment would make sense in this light. That even strong, Red Pill Alpha men… Read more »
kfg, maybe post-menopausal women appear to be wise only because they have finally stopped being menopausal?
One Old Married Guy I know once described menopause like this:
“Ok, You’ve seen what PMS looks like? Now imagine that going on for about 4, 5, maybe 6 years. Nonstop. That’s menopause”.
Of course, that’s just one anecdote. NAMWALT I’m sure.
“most will never be in a position to enjoy the sublime pleasures of dominance over women.” -SJF/scribblerg Good. How it should be – except it should be ALL men. No man should know the “pleasure” of dominating another human being (outside of overt consensual BDSM play). Women aren’t for you to grind under your boot, even if not being able to do so makes your dick permanently sad. “In a more constrained material world that is more dangerous, you can bet women will change their tune. […] I also imagine men will not be so gracious when this reset happens.… Read more »
“Legal marriage and monogamy increase a mans options,especialy with women that aren’t looking for commitment and women that want a stable steady guy they know won’t have some wierd attachments.Psychdar”
@stuffinbox
Um, hate to break it to ya dude, but what you are describing is exactly what YaReally is advocating for. That’s not monogamy. That’s a pLTR.
In terms of biology it’s clear: Wars / religions evolved as a sexual strategy for men. Invade and rule. Control. The ones with power get access to the females. It’s why the Alt-Right is so tied up with nationalism and religious conservatism. They want the good old days of patriarchy / family which used to work as a sexual strategy for them. But who’s invading today? Who’s dominant, forceful, sexual, aggressive, controlling, patriarchal? Muslims and the spread of Islam. While western men cry on Twitter over their skinny lattes and vegan burgers about hurtful tweets, Muslim males are travelling and… Read more »
@Scribble, save your typing. She suffers from Dunning-Kruger Effect and can’t be reasoned with.
” . . Wise Women. Because frankly..there aren’t many. Maybe that’s why . . .”
. . . I used the modifier “the best of them.” The general case wasn’t that they were wise, simply more emotionally stable and more rational – than younger women.
The downside is that it tends to come with a moustache.
” . . . maybe post-menopausal women appear to be wise only because they have finally stopped being menopausal?”
But if we make that “emotionally stable” you might be on to something there.
KFG
“The downside is that it tends to come with a moustache.”
But the meatballs!
seriously though this is a good point on grandmothers… even the narcissist boomer women are mellowing with age. My w’s mother told her on her 40th birthday “whatever you do don’t do what I did… don’t get a divorce. Biggest mistake I ever made”…
Between that and serving as a safety valve with the granddaughters, when they are sparring with mom daily in the teen years, grandma’s are good.
http://www.northjersey.com/polopoly_fs/1.484805.1395903456!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_780/0116f-meatballsinthekitch60p1.jpg
But really the meatballs… do not lose the meatball recipes…
Haven’t caught up since last night, but all I see is the same talking past each other.. Older guys, how would you recommend a young(ish) man goes about having kids in this day and age? No marriage…except it’s the best way to raise kids and there’s a chance a judge might treat you a little better (unless she cries abuse)? Like what combination of LTR, living arrangement, etc. Do you guys recommend. I get you think yareally’s plan won’t work. What alternative would you get behind? kfg I think your laser hallway metaphor is accurate, let’s throw in a shark… Read more »
@Softek
Isn’t monogamy, at least in some form, what we’re alluding to when we talk about “correcting” women?
This is the one conflict I’ve had with TRP for a long time now. Isn’t the modern state of affairs, and women’s reckless abandon with sex, a GOOD thing if you’re an Alpha male? Wouldn’t this mean more access to sex than ever if you’re in the top 10%, which you can work your way into by learning how to run super tight Game, working out, etc.?
Monogamy is about corralling women. It constrains STDs. Monogamy enhances rapport.
Blax’s child support list was awesome. Not sure if the same exists where I am but it’s likely. I brought this up before – why are men so conditioned to (still) have kids given the one-sideness against men. Maybe the most noise about this we hear is from the total nuke-cases that failed. It looks to be though that a much larger majority of men ‘succeed’ in some way (like myself and my peers) even though the man/woman relationship blows up. But things might be totally different in large American cities (where most of you guys are) and across different… Read more »
@Disgruntled “We need to examine the social conditioning that incepts this desire” Biology wills us with this desire, not social conditioning. The men in the shadows who control the social media message want us to stop breeding, and they wish to kill the traditional family unit – they have done an outstanding job thus far. They view us as “useless eaters” so they want us to stop breeding. Since the 20s, they have unleashed the messaging of feminism and anti-traditional family formation to great effect. They’ve created an economic condition that ensures the collapse of traditional family formation and ensures… Read more »
@Dusgruntled So, I have made it a goal to limit all outside messaging coming into my house, and the little that does, I make a point to point out the anti traditional family/male messaging present. My daughter and son will be well aware of the treacherous messaging that is coming at them, so they’ll be less likely to succumb to it. One daughter and son at a time is all we can do as individuals to turn the tide.
@Eric101 – “If the manosphere wants to return to the “good old days” of controlling women, halting feminism and such like, it needs to take advice from Muslim men. Like it or not, they don’t have triggleypuff problems in their culture.” Sorry to burst your bubble but by and large it isn’t any different for Muslim men in the West than it is for any other man. What you’d call Muslim women – nominally or otherwise – are going to college\university, riding the CC with the Alpha’s that their parents will never approve of, get a “career” and then lock… Read more »
My god the dementia must be setting in – Woody Veneer (without meaning to) actually made a point: I’m sure zxe’ll try not to do it again. As in: Let’s not get too big an Apocalypse Now Boner wishing for World War III where it all goes to shit and we can enjoy our schadenfreude blend coffee in our Idaho mountain compound surrounded by cigarettes, whisky and wild wild wimmin (with a freezer full o’ butt steaks and an 88 mm cannon). Maybe a consummation devoutly to be wished by some of you, but realize that’s as blinkered a fantasy… Read more »
Newlyaloof How we go about procreating against evil that wished us FLAT OUT DEAD is up for debate, but we will always have the biological urge to do so, so we need to figure out a game plan. sounds like you did… My daughter and son will be well aware of the treacherous messaging that is coming at them, so they’ll be less likely to succumb to it. One daughter and son at a time is all we can do as individuals to turn the tide. And from this culture is established… first intrafamily, then interfamily, then community then… Just… Read more »
@Sentient, made me laugh out loud. I’ll keep lifting (Hey, did you read that book I mentioned earlier?)
“Setting boundaries and having hand and being the head of household will ALWAYS trigger attraction, IN THAT MOMENT, but how long until her friends, family, buzzfeed, Cosmo, starts telling her that’s abusive?” -othergrain A man “setting boundaries” for a grown ass woman is abusive. Inherently so. Sometimes women need outside help to get out of such a relationship – which is why many of you yahoos want to isolate women… and why attempts at isolation are the first danger signs that means a woman really needs to GTFO ASAP. This site, or at least the comment thread, reads like a… Read more »
“George Carlin had a bit on this called “The Planet Will Be Fine.” ”
A great piece with a tiny flaw: man didn’t invent plastic, he discovered it. Trees make it. Geological forces mold, polymerize and thermoset it. Man has been wearing plastic jewelry for millennia. They found it on the ground.
“My daughter and son will be well aware of the treacherous messaging that is coming at them, so they’ll be less likely to succumb to it. ”
-Newlyaloof
Hopefully your daughter will spot what you’re trying to do to her – isolate her, break her independence, and turn her into a brainwashed servant programmed to obey men – and will leave your little cult-setup as she gets older.
This is why extremist misogynists should simply not be allowed to raise children. They’ll happily sacrifice them on the altar of male supremacy.
@Vanir
“A man “setting boundaries” for a grown ass woman is abusive. Inherently so.”
A man needs to set boundaries with ALLpeople in his life. Since the subject here is women – the talk is of setting boundaries with women.
You call it abusive – which would suggest you feel a man shouldn’t set boundaries. So don’t set boundaries – good luck with that!
“Sometimes women need outside help to get out of such a relationship”
Let me guess – that’s your role?
SomeAttentionWhore: “A man “setting boundaries” for a grown ass woman is abusive. Inherently so.”
God: “Eve, don’t eat the apple.”
SomeAttentionWhore: “Sometimes women need outside help to get out of such a relationship.”
The Devil: “Eve, go ahead and eat that apple.”
lol!
Newlyaloof – no but it looks good.
Disgruntledearthling –
Really, what’s the fucking point?
Because we want this –
http://www.bridalwave.tv/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/kelly-brook-lingerie-new-look-1.jpg
– and because we do, we eventually get more of them…
Drive by posting: Brit mainstream media discovers MGTOW, is confused.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/reddit-mgtow-men-sex-sleep-women-manosphere-meninist-a7330276.html
Softek
What would women being corrected look like?
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ep/original/DT3626.jpg
Second drive by posting: girl comes up with a formula for filtering “nice guys” out of her life. Nothing newsworthy but it disturbs some men to see girlies think this way.
Probably should pass this on to some of the millennial college men – “yes, AWALT, just as I told you, now what do you plan to do about it?”
https://www.refinery29.com/2016/09/124677/naked-test-dating-tips
@ YaReally and the OMG’s You guys don’t understand the reality of divorce. Paul McCartney and Sergey Brin and ball players getting jacked is the norm for guys at that level He makes a billion dollars, and she doesn’t work. She’s going to come away with half of the property he earned during the marriage, and spousal support. But if you’re the average guy, you don’t have a housewife. She has a job with a reasonable salary. And you have a job that has a reasonable salary. There won’t be much alimony, if any. Even in the regular dude with… Read more »
@Othergrain: “let’s throw in a shark pit and swinging saw blades in there too.” You’re one step ahead of me. ” . . . guys are gonna go down that hallway regardless. Why not throw them a reflective codpiece so their big swinging dicks don’t get clipped by an errant laser?” Let’s send a guy down and see what happens. Hey, worked great! His dick is fine. He only lost his arms, legs and head. Don’t make the mistake of thinking your tactical goal was the strategic goal (guys do this all the time). Keep your eyes on the prize.… Read more »
“The financial aspect of divorce is not the parade of horribles . . .”
I keep thinking that we’ve dealt with this issue ages ago, but it keeps coming up, despite its basic irrelevancy.
“You call it abusive – which would suggest you feel a man shouldn’t set boundaries. ”
– NeverAgain
Correct. Men who think they have the right to dictate the actions of women, are inherently abusive – it’s something they simply don’t have the right to do.
And if it is seen happening, it needs to be stopped.
“What would women being corrected look like?”
-Sentient
Thx for the nightmares. Death is preferable to letting men reduce you to that thing. Leashed. Restrained. Broken. A mockery of a real woman and an insult to the human spirit.
Scribblerg
Social change tends to happen “a little at at time, and then all at once.”
http://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/350x235p/photos.demandstudios.com/getty/article/110/213/78036715_XS.jpg
also bankruptcy…
Vanir
Death is preferable to letting men reduce you to that thing.
Vanir is a woman…
Weird, I suddenly got the feeling that this song is appropriate in this thread somehow. Wonder what it could be?
@Vanier:
When can I expect you over to try to remove the locks from my doors?
“Vanir is a woman”
– Sentient
Y’all really hung up on what gender a person is. Which is why I keep it vague. Not gonna say you are right or wrong.
But yeah. Death is better than that. That’s no longer a human, it’s a parody – a big, neutered child on a leash, holding another child.
http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/files/2014/01/StrawMan2.jpg
“When can I expect you over to try to remove the locks from my doors?”
-kfg
The moment you try to lock a woman inside against her will, obviously.
‘@Vanir – So you’ve never felt the sweet, VOLUNTARY surrender of a woman then? Shocker…
Which is why I keep it vague.
Vanir is a gender confused woman…
“Y’all really hung up on what gender a person is.”
Back to feminism school to work on that language thing again.
“The moment you try to lock a woman inside against her will, obviously.”
And you might want to work on keeping track of your own premise.
I know Vanir is a woman because she had nothing to say over the Kelly Brook picture…
SomeAttentionWhore: “Death is preferable to letting men reduce you to that thing. Leashed. Restrained. Broken”
SomeAttentionWhore’sMother: “Honey, how long have you been leashed to that computer readin’ those men’s blog while restrained in that chair? You’re biological clock’s gonna tick until it’s broken!”
“I know Vanir is a woman because she had nothing to say over the Kelly Brook picture…” -sentient Kelly Brook? Is that the “pinup”? Yeah. I don’t care that you like pretty girls. I don’t care you want to fuck pretty girls. I care about you wanting to dominate women, control women, treat them as inferior. I care about you wanting to reduce them to a living insult of all things woman – like the thing on display in that other picture: The neutered female half-child in a western style “burka” – broken and tamed to be safe and easy… Read more »
@Yareally, I'm a major fan of your infield analyses and breakdown of the 2016 realities facing men. I think we're all in agreement marriage has unfavourable odds (divorce rape etc), and having kids leaves a man vulnerable to paying child support (scary shit listed by Blaximus). I applaud your desire and efforts in trying to find a workable solution for most men, but I have to ask: if it's so difficult for a man to maintain frame in a conventional LTR due to unforeseen factors such as illness, job loss etc, how can a guy keep tight game in a… Read more »
Yeah sure – but what you saw was raw female power, in her beauty… and you gave her a Go Grrlll high five in your female limbic system. and then a stir in your loins, since you are at least bi…
But the absence of raw power via beauty, displayed in Motherhood, that is “the thing on display in that other picture”…
Lol… Oh Jeeeeezzzzz
More Vanir…Of course, you would reduce my trenchant commentary on the economic and fiscal and monetary issues we face as ‘cheering on the apocalypse’ (couldn’t even be bothered to scroll up to get the exact quote). Not at all, I’m just a guy who worked in the highest levels of the derivatives business – globally – for a while. I also read and study history and political philosophy carefully, hence my forecast. I don’t cheer it on at all. It will be a disaster. But it isn’t happening out of nowhere, and it’s morons like you who’ve cheerleaded on our… Read more »
@ Vanir “I don’t care you want to fuck pretty girls.” Pretty girls care that strong, dominant men want to fuck them. Or maybe I’m wrong? Maybe you should start instructing women to only have cowgirl style sex, and warn them that if a man is bending them over, or grabs her body in any way to fuck her (instead of her fucking him), it’s rape (even though she consented 100% to sex and they were just fucking with her on top 5 minutes ago)…. …oh, and an abdication of power on her part that is an insult and disrespect… Read more »
“absence of raw power via beauty”
-sentient
Yeah. I prefer women to be strong. That should hardly be surprising at this point.
The “mothers” absence of power has less to do with looks, and more to do with what she has been reduced to. A joke. A tamed creature living by men’s rules.
A woman doesn’t have to be pretty to exude power: Not being broken by traditionalism goes a long way.
“Saddest? You seem to think you are “winning”” – scribblerg The debate? Hardly. Can’t beat ya’all on your own turf. I’m sure I genuinely look like an idiot to many here. That’s fine. I don’t overly much care about what opinion misogynists have on me – it’s gonna be bad one way or another. I am learning, tho. And getting confirmed a lot of what I already thought about “redpill” ideologists. “If someone say they want to kill you believe them” – and the same goes if someone say they want you subjugated, dominated, controlled. And that is confirmed here,… Read more »
@Garnet: I see an issue with thresholds here, which may be why I find the whole marriage coming up again and again a bit frustrating. Let’s say in a divorce you lose a grand. In child support you lose everything you will ever have +5%, +interest and penalties. If you are in the second situation, what is the point of focusing on saving the grand? It’s gone anyway. You didn’t save a damned thing. Now, let’s say you annoyed Blue Pilldom, so your child support is everything you will ever have +10%,+interest and penalties. In this third case are you… Read more »
“Shouldn’t you try to push an agenda that naturally selects for men who are more like women? That’s the best way to have a truly equal world: reduce sexual dimorphism as much as possible.” – softek That may happen or not happen. Depends on individual choice. It’s your side that thinks it’s okay to deliberately break and “tame” people for their own benefit (see picture above). Men can be whatever – as long as they aren’t transgressive towards women (i.e. as long as they don’t try to dominate, control, abuse – as long as they respect overt consent or lack… Read more »
“Second drive by posting: girl comes up with a formula for filtering “nice guys” out of her life. Nothing newsworthy but it disturbs some men to see girlies think this way.
Probably should pass this on to some of the millennial college men – “yes, AWALT, just as I told you, now what do you plan to do about it?”
https://www.refinery29.com/2016/09/124677/naked-test-dating-tips
”
That seems reasonable to me. don’t date people you are not attracted to.
@Vanir You have yet to offer one cogent counterargument to anything anyone has challenged your ideology with. Instead you only make insults, presume a point and argue with straw men. There is not one point you have even attempted to debate. Even the feminists you think would agree with you disprove your ideological premises. http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a43563/im-a-feminist-but-i-like-when-he-comes-on-my-face/ https://therationalmale.com/2014/09/15/alpha-agents-of-righteous-karma/ According to a new survey released this month, your odds of winning the cash would increase if you skipped any 40-something, single female professionals and focused on the middle-aged male managers with one child at home and a wife who works part-time. In its… Read more »
@vanir You said: A man “setting boundaries” for a grown ass woman is abusive. Inherently so. So let’s parse that in the context of a typical relationship with a few softball questions that represent circumstances common to most marriages. A man sets a boundary on his wife’s credit card spending. Is that abuse? A man sets an upper boundary on the kind of car his wife has available to her. Is that abuse? A man sets a lower boundary on his wife’s standards of cleanliness. Is that abuse? A man sets a boundary on how late his wife can be… Read more »
“you only make insults, presume a point and argue with straw men” – Rollo You keep claiming this. You were not able to back it with any actual proof the last time. I doubt you have any this time. I have made no false assumptions; y’all seek to dominate and control women, mold them into what you want them to be – for your own benefit. You consider men dominating and treating women as inferior, to be desirable. This is not a lie. It is not a strawman. It is simply true. As for the rest. I also know there… Read more »
“So let’s parse that in the context of a typical relationship with a few softball questions that represent circumstances common to most marriages.” – Random Angeleno Pretty much *yes* on all of those, except maybe the third – given it’s the man asserting that when *he* cleans the house, he’s not going to do so to her standards. How much money she can spend, what car she can buy, how long she can stay out – smoking and using (for the sake of this discussion, legal) drugs…. that’s her own call. Boundaries like this are something one sets for a… Read more »
“At least “cat-lady” is the main agent in her *own* life.”
Uhmm, no, the cat is, actually.
“have made no false assumptions; y’all seek to dominate and control women, mold them into what you want them to be – for your own benefit. ” Nah, friend, we do it for their benefit. “And I’d rather be that “miserable” single lady in her 40s, than that woman whose life revolves around living in servitude for the sake of her husbands success and happiness. At least “cat-lady” is the main agent in her *own* life” So raising a child and working part time is “servitude for the sake of her husband’s success and happiness.”? They can’t both share the… Read more »
Vanir – Last chance. I try to engage anyone new here with reason (if also some tartness). I wonder, do you get that you actually haven’t dealt with any of the ideas actually being discussed here? Seriously – do you really get that? Even worse, you seem to believe we are misogynists. Put this in your pipe and smoke it – PUAs here live by the credo “leave them better than you find them”. We strive (i’m no PUA master, just working my game the best I can) to “add value” to those we interact with in all social settings.… Read more »
“You’d rather they outsource their childcare and both work? ”
If she’s Swedish she can drop her kid off at childcare on her way to work at a childcare to pay for the childcare plus childcare tax.
“Nah, friend, we do it for their benefit.”
– othergrain
Said the slave owner about his slaves.
It’s the oldest fascist lie in the book. Dominating and controlling someone is not “for their benefit” – but I realize you need to rationalize it like that – that “hamster wheel” you’re attributing to women – working full speed in your own head.
@Kfg Excellent call on critical thresholds. You're right in underlining the point past which @Yareally I see a bigger downside to having kids within a pLTR compared to an okay-ish upside (if it all goes according to plan). That alone for me (personally) is a reason to avoid it. Also I don't think the average Joe has the skill set, nor the desire to make it work. Props to you for trying to find a way to help the mass majority, but I suspect you could find a sure fire way to make a billion dollars and the majority would… Read more »
Ugh, that should read ‘You’re right in underlining the point past which additional penalties don’t matter.’
Vanir At least “cat-lady” is the main agent in her *own* life. keeps selling the dream. You Go Grrrlll!
@Rollo, I think I found Vanir. lol!
@ Vanir Live and let live. Your main problem is thinking that other women have to live the same way you want to live, or it means they’re broken and in some kind of slavery. There are millions of women who genuinely enjoy being in a submissive relationship with a dominant man that takes care of them and provides for them. The wives of more than a few men on this blog are included in that. What is similar to “slavery” about these situations, especially considering that all these women are free to divorce at any time they like with… Read more »
Ironically, it isn’t interested in living it’s own life. It’s interested in pushing other people around to live for it.
Interesting
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4t62iiOv7RY
@ kfg
People that are insecure make up arbitrary rules and standards for behavior and feel threatened when other people don’t abide by them.
Vanir, you are so right! No man should know the pleasure of dominating another human being, that pleasure is reserved for strong, independent women alone! We like sensitive men like you who know how to serve us!
@vanir How much money she can spend, what car she can buy, how long she can stay out – smoking and using (for the sake of this discussion, legal) drugs…. that’s her own call. Boundaries like this are something one sets for a teenager, not a grown woman – and yes, trying to do so is abusive. If a man tries to do so, she has to set him straight; make it clear she’s his girlfriend/wife – not his daughter. If I were to accept that it’s “her own call”, then I cannot stop her from spending more than we… Read more »
“Women shouldn’t be dominated unless they SAY they want to be dominated!”
(man waits)
“Why are men such pussies these days?! I shouldn’t have to tell you what I want you should just get it!”
@SJF “Your rabbit hole is deeper and you want to put that on us rather than having to be more adaptable in your point in life than us.” No I was offering the OMGs a chance to provide some of their amazing OMG wisdom they always talk about no one wanting to hear. All you guys provided was stuff we already know, stuff other men have already taught or teach, “love” lol, and squashing the discussion telling men not to bother trying to improve their odds. So I guess we’ve reached the end of what unique amazing perspective you’re able… Read more »
YaReally I think you should give up trying to have a discussion on this here. This isn’t the place for it because of the mix of age groups here. Know that most lurkers below a certain age group understand what you’re advocating perfectly. The main disconnect is that the OMGs don’t think anything has changed in 2016. That’s the real issue and their answers make sense when you come at the entire discussion from that perspective. The advice they’re giving is the same old advice because they see women as being the same now as they were 20 years ago.… Read more »
@Softek “YaReally’s assessment would make sense in this light. That even strong, Red Pill Alpha men can’t keep hot <25 y.o women locked down these days because they aren't willing to give up their tingles, real and digital alike, from other Alphas or attention from Orbiters." This is my point. Why do we suddenly have to increase the intensive of the Time Bridges we do infield now? Why do hank, Culum, etc find that girls flake like crazy if they don't meet up within 48 hours? With no fucks given? Why do girls tell Blaximus even in a hypothetical experiment… Read more »
“The reality is a lot of men will have a biological drive to pass on their genes. I’m just looking to discuss safer options for doing that . . .”
3. . .2. . .1. . . Don’t be named as the father.
“You think you’re going to pull that shit off for 18+ years, through thick and thing, through her unhaaaappy stages and fights, with 50 Vanir’s in her life and 10 of them are her close personal friends/family that she discusses her LTR problems with?” -YaReally Really must suck. Would be so much easier to get away with abuse if it wasn’t so *hard* to isolate women from friends and family. It’s a reason isolating the victim is the number one goal of crazy sociopath everywhere. If your idea of a “relationship” would benefit if you could lock the other person… Read more »
” . . Wise Women. Because frankly..there aren’t many. Maybe that’s why . . .” kfg . . . I used the modifier “the best of them.” The general case wasn’t that they were wise, simply more emotionally stable and more rational – than younger women. Try this modifier: “the least bad of them”. The downside is that it tends to come with a moustache. That’s the genes talking again. ” . . . maybe post-menopausal women appear to be wise only because they have finally stopped being menopausal?” But if we make that “emotionally stable” you might be on… Read more »
“Your main problem is thinking that other women have to live the same way you want to live”
-Softek
Actually. My main problem is the kind of men here – who want women to behave the way THEY want women to behave – who want to dominate women – and who are willing to isolate and manipulate them to do so.
You really don’t see a problem with this?
Yareally Spiraling out of control… “All you guys provided was stuff we already know, ” Mystery was doing MM 15 years ago… you don’t seem to have an issue with it now in “the current year (OMG!)”… but it stuff that “we already know”… Huh. How about that. But actually bring logical discussion to the table that’s based in what we all know about how attraction/hypergamy work, and where the plan has flaws, so we can tweak them. Except you don’t because it’s stuff we already know… and you simply reject it. (while oddly arguing for it)… Yareally: “It’s different… Read more »
Yareally You think you’re going to pull that shit off for 18+ years, through thick and thing, through her unhaaaappy stages and fights, with 50 Vanir’s in her life and 10 of them are her close personal friends/family that she discusses her LTR problems with? You also have an extremely naive view of what women’s relationships with their friends look like after they are out of college… and have all moved to different parts of the country… and are settling down with different guys and having kids and dealing with those logistics and many working jobs on top of that…… Read more »
@Vanir:
“My main problem is . . .”
. . .that you want women to behave the way you want them to behave, free and independent, without coercion, and they won’t do it, you will force them to do it.
You really don’t see a problem with this?
“So saying “just find a girl without Vanirs in her life” is the equivalent of saying: human population stop reproducing entirely.”
There ya go, problem solved.