
The following post quote has been making the rounds in professional circles. It’s from Sallie Krawcheck, CEO of Ellevest, an investment firm dedicated to helping women with financial investment (no jargon, no ‘playing’ stocks for sport, no mansplaining, you got this). She’s also the “chair” of Elevate Network, a global professional women’s network. I’m adding this here to make a later point, but it’s important to understand how normalized it’s become for women to create a sexually exclusionary organization for women who will simultaneously complain about men’s sexism for not accommodating their (presumably successful) business culture to the interests of women. More on that later.
I thought I’d riff on this click-bait for, I assume, professional women because I expect we’ll see more of this prefabricated outrage in the coming years as a response to what will undoubtedly be the suffering of the Trump era in America. I’ll be the first to admit I was surprised by Trump’s win, but the denial of the First Female President® into the White House will be the cause du jour for every jilted woman who believes she’s a “professional”. Even if Clinton had won the mainstream would’ve been inundated with how ‘we still have a long way to go’ stories, however, with Trump in the Presidency the same tired narrative of systemic male sexism will get reinvigorated in the coming years.
From, A Letter to young women, in the age of Trump:
When I was your age, I thought it was over. My mother was a feminist, so I wanted to call myself anything but a feminist. And anyway, I seemed pretty welcome at work. Even though it was Wall Street, my analyst class was about a third women. We weren’t just on our way — we’d arrived.
But then…there were the inappropriate pictures left on my desk. The guy miming a sex act when my back was turned. I wasn’t given the great assignments; the more senior woman I worked with was likewise dismissed as “lightweight” (and, lest you think that might have been true, that woman was Safra Catz, now the co-President of Oracle). Then the women started to fall away in their 30s…more in their 40s. But the worst of it, I thought was over.
And now Trump has made it clear to everyone that the battle for us women is not over.
In femopshere there will always be an ‘us’. As I’ve outline in many prior essays, the Sisterhood will always take precedence above religion, politics, personal conviction and even family affiliations for women. Largely this is due to women’s evolved propensity for collectivism among their own sex. In our hunter gatherer beginnings women had an interdependent need for collective support for keeping tribal cohesion as well as child rearing.
This intrasexual collective support has carried over into what’s become the Sisterhood today. If you look at the interactions of young girls and their social group interdependence you begin to see that nascent tribal collectivism naturally come through. In terms of larger societal scope this collectivity becomes about acknowledging a shared experience of an imagined oppression by men. Between all women there is a gestalt understanding of “the plight of women” and a presumption of an endemic sexism no matter how culturally or socioeconomically dissimilar those women are.
As I mentioned, Trump is now a universal icon of that presumption of sexism and oppression. Granted, it could’ve been any man who displaced a woman in the history books, but the fall back presumption is that whoever ‘he’ is, he becomes emblematic of a ready narrative of sexism irrespective of merit. We presume sexism, we presume a guy would mime a sex act behind a woman’s back and leave ‘inappropriate’ pictures on a woman’s desk despite decades of workplace harassment legislation. We believe it because it sounds right; it sounds like something a typical sexist guy would do.
I can’t stop thinking about this and what we can / should do:
Remember that gender bias in the workplace is not a thing of the past. I’m sorry if I didn’t act when I should have. I thought we had left sexism behind us by the time I was in more senior roles. After all, we had complaint hotlines and diversity plans and requirements for diverse slates of candidates for every job. But now I’m remembering one of the members of the senior leadership team who would kiss younger women on the cheek at the beginning of meetings. Creepy, right? I now wonder what was being said when I wasn’t in that room.
What’s creepy is that in spite of years in a professional field that’s been the domain of men she’s just now remembering this fact. Would it have been less creepy if he’d kissed only his age-appropriate women on his leadership team? Professional women’s default presumption is that it is always sexism that is holding them back from breaking through a mythologized ‘glass ceiling’, but as is women’s solipsism, their first thought is that their problems are caused by externalities. Never is there an insight that they may simply lack the skills or that they don’t perform at their peak in a job they were told should be rewarding to them.
Gender biases will never be a thing of the past because to suggest they ever might be so is to presume a default state of egalitarian equality between the sexes. The gender biases in the workplace are most evident in the peer selection and peer evaluations of women – not some secret group of guys getting together in a private office room to expressly talk about a their co-workers’ tits.
As it stands in today’s modern office men are scared shitless every time they are called to cooperate with a woman on work projects for fear of being accused of sexism or harassment:
“In a lawsuit-happy culture, where claims can be made on a ‘he said/she said’ basis, men are now trying to ensure their actions are always covered by a third party witness”
“The terror of being accused of sexual harassment is now so common it has its own term, ‘backlash stress”
There’s a reason HR departments are largely staffed by women, because they want to be positioned in a way that they can execute policy. HR departments no longer exist to serve the company with regards to employees, rather they exist in order to protect that company from lawsuits and enforce feminine-primary conditions in the workplace.
Ask tough questions, and call the guys out when necessary. I recently asked my best guy friend: “Do guys really talk like Donald Trump and Billy Bush behind closed doors?” His response: “No, but…” And the “but” was that the conversations are more along the lines of: “Boy, she has great legs,” or “she’s a looker” or “Whew. Wouldn’t touch her with a ten-foot pole.” When I asked him how he responded to this, he said he didn’t say anything; after all, he has to work with these folks.
But so do we. And breaking us down to our body parts or our appearance dehumanizes us in some way. Maybe it’s only in some small way. But it’s clear that for some years, we (and by we, I mean I) were likely too complacent about the inevitability of gender progress in the workplace and relaxed perhaps just a bit too much.
It’s funny and irreverent when all the girls in the office get together for drinks or a male revue strip show after work, but it’s dehumanizing when men do the same. I’ve known very few men who would ever comment on a woman’s anatomy in a workplace environment. I have known men who would scold other men for staring a little too long at a female co-worker. I have known women to actively flirt with guys and wear inappropriate outfits to get attention from them. I’ve known women who’ve called me and other men I’ve worked with their “work husbands”.
I’ve worked in the liquor and casino promotion businesses for two decades now. I see some pretty wild behavior on the part of women who are not unlike the poor victimized dears Krawcheck describes going to work on Monday mornings.
The modern workplace culture has conditioned men for fear of women thanks largely to strict codes of conduct, but also because these men have been raised from birth to be dutiful Betas and White Knights who look for every opportunity to correct a ‘typical man’ for his sexist and rude behaviors. They look for these backroom boys clubs where women are rated on their looks so as to expose their heinous misogyny and institutionalized sexism, but they are disappointed when they don’t actually find it. So instead they contribute to an atmosphere of fear in some lame form of Beta Game they hope will be recognized and rewarded for by workplace women.
If you’re in a bad work situation, it’s ok to quit. So many women think that it’s a “failure” if you quit your job; and you know how hard we females take failure. But sometimes it’s not us: it’s them.
I recently left the board of a non-profit that I LOVE. I had been on it for years (and years). At nearly every meeting I asked how much we were spending on our investment managers, in comparison to the return we were getting. Meeting after meeting I was told that the answer was complex, it was hard to calculate, it would take a lot of work – and why did it matter anyway? It was really the net returns that matter, regardless of how much we paid for them. And then, last spring, before I could bring up the topic, one of the men did; and all the other guys eagerly agreed with him, that we need to keep an eye on fees because those are really all we can control.
I quit the next week.
Life is too short, and I can have a lot more impact with the week-a-year I get back instead of being ignored in meetings.
I know not everyone is in the position to quit; I wasn’t earlier in my career. So the onus is also on those of us who are more senior to be more supportive of women who leave these situations. I am hopeful that an outcome of this election will be greater understanding of this.
If it had been a woman who’d made the same suggestion would we be hearing about this? Shit like this happens all the time in the workplace. One reason The 48 Laws of Power resonated with men so well is because it was relatable to exactly this kind of situation. Law 7: Get others to do the work for you, but always take the credit for it yourself. Sallie sees this as sexism because it happened to be a guy who pulled it on her, but would she have quit the non-profit had it been a woman who outplayed her?
This is the reality of even the most seemingly benign of companies. They are defined by the interplay of power dynamics, but when women are bested in it the sexism narrative is ready on standby to comfort and explain their failure. So it becomes OK to quit, because the environment is always sexist. The business environment is one defined by competition and this grates on women’s expectation of it to be cooperative and collective. Women like Sallie expect recognition for merit, but wish for things to be easier rather than developing the skills to play the game better.
Get yourself a senior, successful – preferably female – mentor, who can help you navigate the politics of your company. This includes the gender politics. Can’t find one on your own? Speak to HR about helping you find one; this is their job, after all.
Your company doesn’t have a senior, successful female? Get the hell out of there.
Really the only sexism I’m seeing in this piece has been one coming from and endorsed by Krawcheck. She bemoans a lack of gender equity and then suggests a female mentor would be preferable to a male one. Her sexism is blatant here – the only definition of a solid reputable company is one that ensures it has a senior, successful female in it. Since most HR departments are staffed primarily with women it’s their job to help you find a senior, successful and female mentor? I’m not a business insider, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t their job.
I made this point in Male Space, but what happens when women insert themselves into a traditionally male dominated domain is that the enterprise becomes about accommodating the female influences rather than the enterprise itself. This entire article is an indictment of this. Again, the solution to a woman’s problem of not being successful is sought externally.
Do your best to make sure that your success is quantified. Be it a sales goal, a client satisfaction rating, an output metric, a quality target. Numbers count here because they’re black-and-white, cut-and-dried. Were you successful or not? I recommend this even if you work in a “normal” company, because implicit gender biases and expectations still exist for all of us.
Solid enough advice, but it’s couched in the context of an expectation of gender biases (at least the type of bias Sallie finds unacceptable). There’re implicit gender biases, but the ones we see dominate even ‘normal’ companies are ones that favor a feminized workforce.
Think about starting your own thing. This is what’s exciting; we have the ability to start our own businesses today, in a way we didn’t in the past. Why not take our marbles to our own playgrounds and build great businesses and cultures? Our mothers couldn’t do this because the cost was so high – but the costs of everything-about-starting-a-business, including technology, people (i.e., freelancers), real estate (co-working spaces) and support services are coming down. And then no one can relegate you to the less-interesting jobs.
Women are taught that they deserve the luxury of interesting jobs. In fact this is the sole reason for even wanting to enter the workforce most times – a rewarding career that’s fulfilling, but as I wrote in She’s Unhaaapy… that fulfillment is always elusive. Therefore it must be that uncooperative men are holding women back from this happiness.
I’m not sure opening another gourmet cupcake eatery counts as contributing to the status of women in business, but I would say that women ought to be encouraged to start up their own businesses rather than rely on the proven successes of established ones to prove their business acumen. Carly Fiorina and Sheryl Sandberg are not innovators in any sense. Neither started a company from scratch, but they are lauded as powerful businesswomen because they supposedly had the moxie to compete with the big boys and their sexist enterprises – not actually as a result of their companies wanting to present a feminine-correct public image.
I would love to see women’s organic business successes despite themselves, but my guess is that every failure or setback would have some tinge of external sexism attached to them. The truth is there are very few women who actually create something of worth because the easier path to success is to create a social convention that shames men for not including women in their own successes. It will always be easier for women to appropriate the success of men rather than create anything for themselves.
I am going to go out of my way to support other women. It’s clear now: we can’t do this alone. Another woman who is promoted or celebrated or funded clears the way for another. I am actively looking to buy from women-owned businesses, which is much easier these days — Glossier, Outdoor Voices, and Project September are just a few of a new wave of startups led by women — and avoid companies that remain all-men. I’m just so over supporting them.
And here we have yet more fem-centric sexism in a piece decrying male sexism. Weren’t we just reading about how surprised Sallie was about gender bias not being a thing of the past in the workplace? Because Trump won the election she calls for a boycott from buying anything from male owned companies?
One thing I’ve always found ironic about women’s call for collective, gender-exclusionary support for other women is that women are often guilty of even worse infighting than men are in the workplace. Lets face it, women hate other women to a degree that most men are unaware of. Their capacity for sub-communication and psychological warfare among themselves makes intra-sexual competition more brutal than having to deal with any so-called sexist male co-worker. From women’s collectivist perspective one would think that women’s intra-sexual support of other women would make them all outstanding successes in business, but we find the opposite is true. Women have a very hard time making an all-female enterprise a success. Naturally this is blamed, again, on men’s sexists brinksmanship and outmaneuvering them, but by and large it’s internal conflict that destroys all-female run enterprises.
Invest. Having spent my career on Wall Street and now being the founder of Ellevest, a digital investment platform for women, I know I’m a broken record on this topic. But men invest to a greater extent than women do, and it costs us. Indeed, I believe investing is the best career advice women aren’t getting. Think about it – are you more able to tell your boss to take this job and shove it if you have more money or less money?
That’s what I thought. At the end of the day, money is the real key to gender equality.
Of course we get the sales pitch at the end. Women don’t invest because it’s not sexy. It requires a degree of commitment and a depth of insight that goes well beyond what an average woman has any interest in. I do find it entertaining that Sallie finally gets to the real reason for a gender inequality she claims she wants to see abolished. Money is most definitely a key to establishing social dominance and that creates a fundamentally unequal condition between men and women.
Businesses, successful ones, are founded on competition, not cooperation. This is the fundamental conflict we are experiencing in today’s corporate culture; women’s collectivism promotes what they believe should be a successful enterprise based on egalitarian cooperation while men largely see the enterprise as competition. Sometimes this is a win-at-any-cost type of competition, other times it may be more subtle, but the crux is that women’s propensity to want for a more collectivist approach to a successful enterprise is at odds with men’s competitive approach. Success in business is fundamentally unegalitarian, there are winners and losers, not co-equal participation trophy winners. But as women continue to insert themselves into the unegalitarian male spaces of enterprise we will see this push for cooperative hopes for business success fundamentally alter the purpose of these businesses as we attempt more and more to accommodate them.

“I’ve asked you to define what is Alpha…. a few times.”
How about this: A guy who is ultimately secure in who he is, and has game.
Millennial report but no way an FR: A few days back a college student, probably 22 or so, slim with long black hair spent some effort qualifying herself to me in a coffee joint, all verbal but she was in my space, asking questions about what was on my laptop screen, took teasing well. Insisted on a handshake as she left while giving me her name. I had to let her go because reasons. Yesterday… Went ot a chain bookstore to buy some things. The checkout clerk was about 5′ 10″ and pudgy with black hair and vaguely effeminate features.… Read more »
Andy
How about this: A guy who is ultimately secure in who he is, and has game.
So an incel virgin whose taken a bunch of bootcamps…?
“So an incel virgin whose taken a bunch of bootcamps…?”
Hmmm, the “has game” part would disqualify your incel virgin assertion.
” . . . an impudent male is able to create a company with 1000 workers and still be somehow less capable and less intelligent when compared to some other males.”
An interviewer once put forth, as an accusation, that the men in Charlie Daniels’s band were all better musicians than he was.
He answered:
“Of course they are. I wouldn’t have hired them if they weren’t.”
@Keith
I don’t understand how some one can get a grasp of holding frame without doing a little bit of couples dancing. If can’t hold frame your gonna lose your partner or your going to constantly be bumbing into each other. Much like relationships. Every man knows female love to dance once a man comprehends why he is already half way out of the matrix
YSGs won’t believe you unless you have a vid showing it, heh.
@kfg
Mea culpa (I had to look up what that meant after other people used it.)
I had assumed DPA was a theory in regards to behavior that attracts women. I admit that I didn’t remember Sentient from before, and had only been basing my replies on his posts the past few days.
I will take more time to consider his theory.
@Sentient
Thank you for reposting your breakdown of your theory.
Would it be fair to say Mystery’s condition is representative of a guy who’s spent too much time on ‘process’ (PUA) and not enough time on forming insights on what the data that process presents to him (TRP)?
Is Mystery suffering the result of a disconnect between perfecting the process and understanding why that process works?
“I had assumed DPA was a theory in regards to behavior that attracts women.”
Ahhhhhh, but that it is!
And with regards to passion, note that psychopaths (word has it that it’s going back in the DSM) display strong emotion without having any, and Zen masters have strong emotion without displaying it.
Andy
Hmmm, the “has game” part would disqualify your incel virgin assertion.
Really? Does Hank have “game”? Or did you mean something else by “have game”? Like having “game” that works?
Understanding game and acting on the game understanding not equal to game success…
RSD bootcamps and PUA communities full of guys who memorized everything there is about Game… they certainly know it backwards and forwards. and are yet virgins… Having game by itself is meaningless…
And many of them are also secure in their view that they are worthless losers…
KFG
” . . . an impudent male is able to create a company with 1000 workers and still be somehow less capable and less intelligent when compared to some other males.”
Been there, done that… LOL
@ Rollo
The answer is an unequivocalyes.
There’s a great difference in the procedural and the deeper understanding of why the procedure exists.
Fake it till you fuck up, as it were.
@Sentient, that comment of your describing DPA works excellently for me. I’ve create a page on my site with your summary. I used to be a teacher, so creating course material that is the-least-common-denominator easy for the dumbest person to comprehend is just something I like doing. When I learn a new software program, I get into the help files and deconstruct shit like a detective, so forgive my desire to go all “tutorial” on this issue. I think some of the YSGs are getting thrown a bit because they want it spelled out like Google directions with each street… Read more »
“Fake it till you fuck up, as it were.”
Positive thinking, necessary, but not sufficient.
“I don’t understand how some one can get a grasp of holding frame without doing a little bit of couples dancing.”
There are alternative paths. For instance, aikido.
Oh. Wait . . .
Newly
Cool!
I used to be a teacher, so creating course material that is the-least-common-denominator easy for the dumbest person to comprehend is just something I like doing.
I am actually supremely lazy… so I always look for short cuts and models… notwithstanding I have discipline and determination to do the work when there are no alternatives…
Yikes! A contradiction!!! Oy my….
@YaReally & Scray I’m going to repeat my advocacy for creating your own space. At this point, you have enough people who follow your comments and want to post field reports that you would have a solid niche audience to start with. As for the blog, you wouldn’t even have to post your own articles. You could literally just repost”Field reports for the week of X” and increment X for the appropriate week. Hell, you could even just link back to the main article on TRM for the body of your posts. I think Rollo rightfully feels upset that he… Read more »
Quick correction (since we don’t have an edit feature):
You both could still continue to chime in on discussions hererelated to the topic, and us YSGs could feel free to post any more FR comments on the new blog
Would it help if I created a page dedicated to FRs here?
Rollo I just read through Mystery’s Twitter meltdown. Why would the guy who literally wrote the book on PUA be having suicidal thoughts (again) about his relationships and his personal state? Interesting questions. I don’t do Twitter, but will go and look. Based on that “Man The F Up” clip that someone posted a while back (Sentient, IIRC) he’s been drifting blue pill for a while. Hmm. I wonder, does he even lift anymore? Not entirely joking. Was it that he lost attraction to his wife (wives) baby mamma? More likely she lost attraction for him, due to his betaization.… Read more »
@kfg
notwithstanding I have discipline and determination to do the work when there are no alternatives…
Did you get those from a vid?
Rollo
Is Mystery suffering the result of a disconnect between perfecting the process and understanding why that process works?
Works for me. He’s like an F1 driver suddenly having to do his own car repair / maintenance.
“Really? Does Hank have “game”? Or did you mean something else by “have game”? Like having “game” that works?”
In my definition I’m going to imply that Has means Has. Not learning game, or understanding game. But HAS game. Fucking lol at you vacillating trying to disprove my definition.
Andy
So a guy who has gamed 1,000 HBs with zero lays has no game until he lays the 1,001st gamed HB?
Unplug.
“So a guy who has gamed 1,000 HBs with zero lays has no game until he lays the 1,001st gamed HB?”
Has Game means has game. Not a difficult concept.
@SJF @Andy
Ivan Throne is good, but he tends to be more style than substance. For men who really want to dig deep into the struggle of life and the quest for meaning…
Well, nothing’s perfect. But I’ve been listening to Jordan B Peterson’s lecture series ‘Maps of Meaning’ on Youtube, and it is excellent striving. The man is, in his own sphere, very Red Pill. In the sense that he casts aside all obstacles and paradigms that interfere with the quest for truth.
https://youtu.be/bjnvtRgpg6g?list=PL22J3VaeABQAGbKJNDrRa6GNL0iL4KoOj
Rollo – for what it’s worth my suggestion (and Hank’s too) as one of the more prolific FR posters is that a separation isn’t necessary and may be counterproductive. FR volume is relatively low – all related posts and FRs are never more than 10-15% of a thread and there is significant value in keeping the discussion and the audience all in one place. And FR volumes are often even lower – for e.g. There will be no FRs from mr for the next couple weeks. As established earlier in this thread when I had an exchange with Blax and… Read more »
@Rollo
Yeah creating a subforum thing for FRs and PUA discussion sounds dope
This comment section is hellish because it keeps devolving into people talking at each other and taking forever to reach an “Ahh, I see what you mean” moment.
@Rollo
Yes. I think that’s a great idea.
It wouldn’t eliminate the link backs to RSD videos coming from TRM, but it would segregate them so as to minimize exposure to readers who have no interest in them.
@Forge
thx, I’ll check it out. Coincidentally I was just about to watch him on Rogan’s podcast.
”
Really? Does Hank have “game”? Or did you mean something else by “have game”? Like having “game” that works?
”
Like this is a good example of a why a subforum would be a good idea, we wouldn’t have to endure conversations like this (and they wouldn’t have to endure ours)
Andy
What about a guy who has no game but has slept with more than 100 women? Is he not alpha?
@SJF I am implying that “satisfaction, confidence or happiness with this” is their satisfaction confidence or happiness with the quality of their girls after they fuck them. They certainly have an aversion to deeply convert those girls (because they might stick around too long) rather than merely spike high attraction. I could be wrong. But that opinion stems from observing their stated behavior. I don’t know where you got this from. Another thing I’ve repeatedly harped on in the manosphere is the misogyny. I always talk about how there’s a lot of cool girls out there. Shit, man, 80% of… Read more »
@sentient
idk, if he’s a 6 who has nailed 100 2 or 3’s, is he alpha? is he meaningfully alpha?
“What about a guy who has no game but has slept with more than 100 women? Is he not alpha?”
lol… Nope. Look, it’s unfalsifiable dude. Just like DPA. Get the point?
I’ve learned a lot from the PUA’s here. A sincere debt of gratitude to Scray, and others, for helping me understand my position.
So much so I was telling the boys this yesterday:
“Consider strapping Secretariat (we saw the movie) to a milk cart (had to explain that). It’s more power than needed and the milkman doesn’t know how to get the most out of him anyways.”
“Until I know what makes me tick, and recognize weaknesses, encourage strengths (more there, there), I’ll never get the most out of PUA and my relationship skills remain inchoate.”
Alright, I’ll be adding a dedicated page in the top nav for FRs this weekend. We’ll see how it works for people.
@Scray
“Another thing I’ve repeatedly harped on in the manosphere is the misogyny. I always talk about how there’s a lot of cool girls out there. … And the aversion to “deep conversion” is a desire not to break anyone’s heart.”
That’s cool. I’ll give you honor (among men) and merit for that. For being positive about masculinity and positive about feminine women.
@culum Creating an FR forum won’t solve that issue – it’s much deeper. Perhaps not, but I think it would help lessen the tension. If you read the complaints of the OGs in this thread, many of them echo the sentiment that they are tired of hearing about PUA and RSD in particular: “PUA is a phase” – the unspoken end of that sentence is “and I’m glad to be done with it.” “Not everything is about getting pussy” -> unspoken “so let’s talk about something else for a change” “I’ve watched as RSD videos flooded the comments” -> “I… Read more »
@Othergrain “So you’re saying she responds better after you spike her emotions and give her value (good feels)?! Every time you move things forward (lead) should be done on a high note (for her), escalating physically, location change, etc. Lol I know you know all this, but just wanted to highlight the concepts.” Nah, thanks, it’s easy to miss this stuff sometimes. I actually hadn’t thought of it like that. Maybe bought a bit into the ‘just be alpha brah lead her, don’t be a dancing monkey’ line of thought on this one. But at least my impulse was to… Read more »
@Rollo
The FR thing may work for people…atleast make them easier to find. I know for a fact i’ll never click it cause once I open TRM I just read the new post and scroll through comments (repeat)
@Rollo
Alright, I’ll be adding a dedicated page in the top nav for FRs this weekend. We’ll see how it works for people.
http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif
@Scray I can’t speak for Ya, but I’m not there yet to where I feel I can offer something totally new and that is rock solid Field-Tested. You don’t have to (though clearly your club game post had a lot value as evidenced by RSD putting forth the same content a year later), you just have to keep doing what you guys are doing – providing good feedback on FRs. I’ve been a member of five different lair forums over the past ten years (though to be fair, one of them was an evolution of the other). I found most… Read more »
Don’t faint, Rollo, but I wish to return to the OP. A couple of times over at Dalrock’s I have observed that BD/SM has become more mainstreamed – 50 SOG for example – and speculated that it may be in part due to the ongoing elevation of women up to the glass floor. Yeah, ok, “many resources” and so forth, “fall of Rome”, ok. But women are still women. Girls are girls. The buzz-cut lesbian / bi girl who selected the seat right next to me in a college town restaurant last month when lots of other seats were available,… Read more »
MurrayStreet “Yeah creating a subforum thing for FRs and PUA discussion sounds dope This comment section is hellish because it keeps devolving into people talking at each other and taking forever to reach an “Ahh, I see what you mean” moment.” So removing the FR’s won’t solve that…there are lots of off topic discussions here. I skim past some like the economics ones, hell I even skip FRs sometimes. But that’s all it takes…the wheel. I cant imagine what the comments were like before all of this “hellish” debate, was everyone just in agreement and back patting? Certain articles, like… Read more »
@ blax So firstly I nohomo love you too blax. Just getting frustrated from having things devolve into the same shitstorm it always does, from having just about fuck nothing when I have gone out these past few days (except for the 14 year old I thought was 22…but she was 14 so I had to abort lol) and because I am very close to getting daygame down solid, I just have to try out my new stack which is a fair amount bolder and more sexual than I am used to, so I am excited and apprehensive to use… Read more »
@Rollo Alright, I’ll be adding a dedicated page in the top nav for FRs this weekend. We’ll see how it works for people. Yay! @Hank ME:You seem like trouble. At first glance you seem normal enough, but I can tell deep down you are a party girl. You drink a bunch. And when you do, you turn into a raging lesbian. You just start making out with random chicks. HER: Nooo, I don’t like girls. Nooo (because they ALWAYS say something like this lol) ME: Yeah, I agree, you don’t like girls…until you start drinking that is. Then you start… Read more »
othergrain I cant imagine what the comments were like before all of this “hellish” debate, was everyone just in agreement and back patting? LOL. No. At the late, lamented Spearhead there was a regular who went by the handle of Anonymous Age 64 (then 65, 66, etc.). He had spent years in the 1980’s working with men who were being frivorced, were recovering from frivorce, etc. and had some hard won insight into reality. He was the man who posted quotes from the Bible book of Proverbs on a regular basis, just to make it clear “No, dude, it’s not… Read more »
@Sentient
I think DPA is a fine description of a well rounded dude. Kind of like the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon. It’s not a cure to all woes. 🙂
@Rollo, I like the idea of a FR “place” but if you do it in one post, that post qill quickly grow in size to the point it would probably take a shitload of time to load up. Also, if people are just adding their own FRs to existing FR’s already on the post, people will get lost quickly when people randomly comment on differing FRs. A Dedicated WordPress “page” that had links to various FR’s would cause you to have to create numerous “posts” to link from the page. Don’t know how you’d do that. Forum software would probably… Read more »
Scray
idk, if he’s a 6 who has nailed 100 2 or 3’s, is he alpha? is he meaningfully alpha?
What would Biology say? What would Genghis Khan say? What would the average of the numbers have to be? The median?
Which is better a 7 you have great sexual chemistry with and enjoy as a person or a 9 who is a bad lay and a bad person?
Your numerology is only a reflection of where you are ATM. Eventually it wont matter. this is where “they are just girls” resides.
Level up Scray, I’m counting on you!
Andy
I think DPA is a fine description of a well rounded dude.
Might be so, but it is not sufficient as I’ve demonstrated over the last 24 hours in this comment stream alone.
@sentient
Level up Scray, I’m counting on you!
What would Biology say? What would Genghis Khan say? What would the average of the numbers have to be? The median?
Do you have an answer regarding your own theory or do you not?
If it is not said clearly, it is not thought clearly.
Shit or get off the pot, dude.
Context
Film about Barbie
http://variety.com/2016/film/news/amy-schumer-barbie-movie-1201932313/
@ Rollo ———————– “Would it be fair to say Mystery’s condition is representative of a guy who’s spent too much time on ‘process’ (PUA) and not enough time on forming insights on what the data that process presents to him (TRP)? Is Mystery suffering the result of a disconnect between perfecting the process and understanding why that process works?” ———————– Absolutely. @ Sentient ———————– “But guess what? If you pursue the Platinum Rule and start to live a dynamic, passionate and authentic life – YOU become your MPO… YOU become the focus of your life. EVERYTHING else is an adjunct… Read more »
Scray
You have the answer to my theory… DPA… in your hypothetical we don’t have the data… 🙁
Biology would say that a guy with 100 women laid is alpha. Biology is binary at the edge – reproduction or not. Repro we can have this talk in 20 years with your kids… No repro you are dead in 20 years… there are no bonus points for HB scales
Now if you subscribe to the theory that only 40% of men ever reproduce, you would have to conclude that the guy is elite as well.
Catching up on comments – so many…
I don’t think Mystery is really RP. Just because he’s broken down pua doesn’t mean he’s worked out the theoretical aspect like Rollo has. Hence his meltdowns. The two aren’t even in the same camp but they both offer valuable advice for those clever enough to pull the two together.
@Rollo Just turn the TV on, never mind how it works i’m the LAST guy to EVER diss working to understand how shit works…lol… buuut, sometimes that’s what needs to happen (just click the remote button)… for my part, when i was looking down the barrels of my pending divorce situ, i didn’t have enough time/energy/MPoO/mental capacity/etc to even begin to understand what i didn’t know… i HAD to take it on faith that somebody ELSE ‘knew how that tv worked’ and had designed it ‘properly’ to work as claimed (largely bc i could tell that what i ‘knew would… Read more »
Softek! Worrying about what BEING dynamic, passionate and authentic will “get” you is putting the cart before the horse. Big time. At the end of the day, my routine is about me. Nice MoP development… You have to want to live your life, and be excited to live it. In one way or another. emphasis on your life… I’m counting on you too… handle your home life as YOU wish. PSA – anyone interested taking a break from HB’s and in observing a couple of DPA guys in the field, should check out the recent Anthony Bourdain episode with Masa… Read more »
Been laid up recovering from hernia-repair surgery. Lottsa fun – hope you all get to enjoy it a some time in your lives 🙂 I’m been taken care of buy a nice 46yo lady I met on pof a couple of months ago. I thank Yareally and the pua crowd for the gaming instruction that worked so wonderfully on her. And the rest of the TRM gang too. I get sex on demand, bondage, anal – stuff I couldn’t dream of during a 28year OMG relationship. She’s not a < 24yo chick but who cares? She's certainly not long term… Read more »
@sentient Biology would say that a guy with 100 women laid is alpha. Biology is binary at the edge – reproduction or not. Repro we can have this talk in 20 years with your kids… No repro you are dead in 20 years… there are no bonus points for HB scales Now if you subscribe to the theory that only 40% of men ever reproduce, you would have to conclude that the guy is elite as well. All right! Now we have a discussion and not some dude stroking his fu manchu speaking in almost-koans. Great! The rejoinder is simple:… Read more »
@EhIntellect He’s great at the opening, the cold call, but then can’t close a date. I’d be performing parental malfeasance telling him contrary what his gut is telling him. you should maybe rethink this… you really should help him understand that ‘his gut’ is trying to keep him inline with FI/social conditioning (it’s the FI pushing on both of you…)… bc ‘closing a date’ is really all about the sexual expectation (isn’t that the point of pairing off?…lol)… and the FI undermines the idea that men should be in control of that process… good luck! ————– @Blaximus Guys said they… Read more »
@ hank How old are you? Just curious. I didn’t get laid until I was 26. Tons of rejections and horrible and humiliating experiences with women before that. That’s a long time. Your brain gets wired differently and your mindset is absolutely vastly affected. I’m a big believer in change, including the theory that if you believe you CAN’T change, then it’ll become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It could be very possible that a guy like me could be thinking like Blax next year and be fucking as many girls as I want if I put my mind to it. The… Read more »
Mystery is the Poster Boy for Rollo’s post that being “alpha” is a mindset. Mystery had technique, but he didn’t use technique to improve his internals. Maybe that’s the problem with “PUA and Game are about the lays, brah!”
Game is about more than seduction…it’s about relationships as well.
I can see the whole discussion moving towards my post about relationships and my contention that The Taming of the Shrew is still relevant here in modern 1016, er 2016.
She’s certainly not long term for me – I’m firm in my belief that I’ll never LTR or marry again and I tell her that. But she’s been there at the hospital and the last couple of nights tending to me.
I’ve been wondering, what explains that. What’s the payoff for her?
——-
She views you as alpha and wants to lock you down to one degree or another; every woman born thinks she is special enough to change a man’s mind on that commitment deal
@ Sentient
Thanks, and good to hear from you. Been doing my best lately to grow and develop. It’s good to feel the worm turning.
Disgruntled
I’ve been wondering, what explains that. What’s the payoff for her?
Cats are not dogs… the payoff is simply you. Men lead, women follow… she is under your spell… Enjoy and get well.
He’s great at the opening, the cold call, but then can’t close a date. I’d be performing parental malfeasance telling him contrary what his gut is telling him.
you should maybe rethink this…
He admitted days back his gut tells him “stop overthinking the process, get out there and just go for it.”
I say “Yep, they’re just girls.”
Thanks!
Corporate party tonight…free booze and uptight folks…these can be fun.
@Anonymous Reader
Should be interesting to see how churches deal with this, as they all want to attract millennials.
I’m sure you already know this, but if it’s millennial men they hope to attract, I would summarize efforts to date as –
Rumbling, Bumbling, Stumbling, Fumbling.
With apologies to Chris Berman (his younger self).
@ Hank Scrib once told me that I talk too much ( brag ) and make it seem like I’ve never done shit wrong or had a misstep. I dig scrib, so I took his comment under strong advisement. I’ve been determined to have as much fun as possible, without ending up in the penitentiary or grave yard, for the better part of 40 years now. So, I got stories. Hell, I got a story from yesterday. But when I recall stories and such, I’m trying to convey that 1) At the end of the day, I am just a… Read more »
@ AR
Lol, I’m glad I finally said something that made practical sense.
Blaximus Lol, I’m glad I finally said something that made practical sense. Eh, you say a lot of stuff that makes sense, well, it makes sense to me. Hmm. Some of what I learned over the years came in the form of older men recounting situations. Telling stories, in other words. Is that less common now than it used to be? Maybe. On the one hand, I see a lot of people 35 and under glued to their phones, often viewing vids. Looked over at a studious college girl in a public place the other day, phone with earbuds &… Read more »
@ Hank Oh yeah, I forgot to add something- ” So, you banged multiple girls you worked with AND had you manager begging to have sex with you…all when you are 17?” It sounds waaaayyyy cooler than it was in reality, hence my lament about it being a bad decision. What the real of it was, the manager was a 5 at best. She had a desperate, begging thing going on that wasn’t appealing or desire provoking. It didn’t really have much to do with anything about me other than I was Male and Young. But I miscalculated by thinking… Read more »
Mystery is the Poster Boy for Rollo’s post that being “alpha” is a mindset. O_o Mentally, I hear that “record screech” sound effect reading this. You must have a far different definition of alpha than I do. @softek I didn’t get laid until I was 26. Tons of rejections and horrible and humiliating experiences with women before that. That’s a long time. Your brain gets wired differently and your mindset is absolutely vastly affected. Haha yep. For me it was 27 though. I’m speaking for myself here. Not saying you have a low self-esteem; from your posts it seems pretty… Read more »
@blax
Haha been there, done that. It’s the only kind of sex I’ve had so far.
Mystery is a prime example of exactly the disconnect between Game practice and TRP “theory” I describe in Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite:
https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/22/dream-girls-and-children-with-dynamite/
His is a textbook example of why it’s necessary to understand how the car works as well as how to drive it.
@ Pellaeon
” Haha been there, done that. It’s the only kind of sex I’ve had so far.”
You gotta do what I do/did after that. I hold ’em down until I’m done..lol ( joke…kind of ) XD
@HABD Thanks dude! Thank my parents for electing to skip that lobotomy lol (not really) @AR, Blax “However, FR’s tend to be very bare bones, “I went to this place, said that, she reacted the other way” in a direct, linear, to-the-point way. Recounting situations as stories, “So there I was, leaning over the balcony rail…” are not so linear, not so direct. Maybe that’s the difference, subtlety and nuance are not as common as they once were.” There is a kinda joyless character to FR’s that I dislike. I write stories for fun after all. But when I try… Read more »
@rollo His is a textbook example of why it’s necessary to understand how the car works as well as how to drive it. no PUA argues otherwise. And if anything Mystery proves the supremacy of ACTION, Mystery practically created this entire community without — according to you — acquiring the proper mindset. Mystery hooked up with tons of hot chicks — according to you — without acquiring the proper mindset, and he even knocked up a hot chick. And the darkside of ‘mindset’ is that it’s the internalization of a certain set of behaviors that have led to a certain… Read more »
Is it “success” if your behaviors have led you to regularly contemplate suicide?
@blax Lol, I’m trying to encourage guys to do what they think is hard or not really possible. Life is opportunity mostly. Except YOU ARE NOT. How many times do several different people have to tell you that your approach has the exact OPPOSITE effect of your stated intentions. When you have a neophyte to any discipline coming to you asking for advice, you’re not being encouraging by just saying ‘HEY FIGURE IT OUT. A GUITAR IS A GUITAR. A THEOREM IS JUST A THEOREM. A CAR IS JUST A CAR. A SYSTEM OF ETHICS IS JUST A SYSTEM OF… Read more »
@rollo
Is it “success” if your behaviors have led you to regularly contemplate suicide?
If the goal was to slay pussy, then yes, it’s a success. And to be honest, mindsets like ‘they’re just girls’ don’t address the type of mindset problems that lead a dude to think about suicide anyway. It’s a wholly separate mindset problem.
Plenty of historical “alphas” have struggled with depression and negativity.
Mystery is the Poster Boy for Rollo’s post that being “alpha” is a mindset.
Mentally, I hear that “record screech” sound effect reading this. You must have a far different definition of alpha than I do.
Well, I meant that the betaized version of Mystery is someone who knows pickup, but has lousy internals, hence a beta mindset even though he has gotten many lays.
Mystery is no longer alpha and notch count isn’t evidence of an alpha mindset.
@Rollo
One thing to calibrate for: was Mystery a depressed, suicidal guy from time to time before game as well?
I don’t know if any of us really know.
Clearly at the very least his specific brand of success didn’t lead to these sorts of problems being eliminated. It’s possible they exacerbated them, or even caused them, but that’s hard to demonstrate without more info.
@ Softek I get what you are saying. This is where YaReally is correct when he says that I might just not be good at explaining stuff. ( along with a bunch of other commenters… I’m working on it though ). It’s of little comfort to guys going through extended droughts, but imo, losing my virginity at 13 was mostly a curse. I was not mentally mature enough to handle all of the feels that came along with that. I ” fell in love with my *girlfriend* ” and suffered greatly when she devolved into a total whore. I didn’t… Read more »
@Asdgamer
Mystery has solid Internals………. He’s just stuck looking for something people told him is suppose to be there but isn’t
Were those the same people who told him if he just drives the car far enough he’ll get there?
To add: I get the sense that Mystery is a socially isolated guy. That’s surely in part due to his unusual lifestyle, but I see guys like Owen and the RSD coaches at least making a social circle of themselves. Mystery went it alone for the most part. Owen formed a gang. Chronic isolation is likely a much larger factor in depression/suicidality than adverse relationship events. Why do so many more recently-divorced men than women commit suicide? Couldn’t it be that they made the marriage and its family the totality of their social world, while the women retained friends? Couldn’t… Read more »
@Rollo
The same people who gave him a surefire roadmap to get to location x …..but he didn’t know his whole life the map he was following was just a joke
@Rollo Mystery is a prime example of exactly the disconnect between Game practice and TRP “theory” I describe in Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite: https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/22/dream-girls-and-children-with-dynamite/ His is a textbook example of why it’s necessary to understand how the car works as well as how to drive it. true enough… (at least if you don’t want your life to explode…lol) but the FI is cunning and pervasive… and you don’t know what you don’t know… (like all those BP puas…lol) if you didn’t already KNOW that cars were ‘more’ than just keys and gas (and society was actively telling you… Read more »
@blaximus
“I talk to models the same way I talk to the chick out the grocery checkout, the same way I talk to my neighbors or the chick delivering my mail or the skyscraping blonde at Hotake or 1oak, or the chick walking down the street with that impossibly see through outfit on.”
This counts as actionable advice. I definitely need to work on that.
Julian says something like that here:
@ sfer
Thanks, but I’ve been recently informed that I don’t give good/actionable advice, and that I am condescending.
http://media.tumblr.com/25f2ddbae24c3c70550c6a88e93de2b8/tumblr_inline_mq614gQ07i1qz4rgp.gif
Regarding us yougnins wishing to be spoon fed like the little babies we are… You learn fire will burn you when you touch the stove. You learn to change the oil by watching your dad do it. Some guys learn early, and the first car they get, they change the oil. Some guys never change it. But there are some that, for one reason or another, decide to start doing it on their own, and grab the Haynes book for their vehicle. Those guys should just do the hard work and not be afraid cuz Cara are just Cars. And… Read more »
@Othergrain
“You learn to change the oil by watching your dad do it.”
Youtube has been my daddy for a long ass time
ROLLO can change the format and put FR in separate spot. But I don’t think the omg vs. ysg is ever gonna change its just masculine nature. Old bull and a young bull standing on a hill. Young bull says let’s run down their in the valley and fuck one of them heifers. Old bull says wait a second let’s walk down and fuck all them heifers. But on the TRM it’s a little different.
@Ton, @Sentinent
“She views you as alpha and wants to lock you down to one degree or another;”
And that’s what I thought… TRM guys, you have no idea how that tickles me pink – at 57 and being BP all my life, I learned how to play with my food…
and it’s here I learned it. Rollo, Ya, Blax… you’re all doing more good than harm.
Forge
Why do so many more recently-divorced men than women commit suicide?
Dynamic, Passionate and Authentic despair, far as I can tell.
Self killing is another thing that men are much, much better at than girls. Number prove it.
@Scray
Haha be careful with absolutes, it only takes one counter-example to blow them away.
I’m pretty sure the answer is yes. It’s heavily implied in The Game that mystery had been dealing with this kind of depression long before he started macking on chicks. He hated his dad while he was there, and hated him more when he left.
@Rollo
“His is a textbook example of why it’s necessary to understand how the car works as well as how to drive it.”
+1
I don’t think my knewly-learned gaming skills would serve me well without knowing the underlying theoretical aspects. At my age that would just be increasing notch-count and increasing depression.
Pelleon
it’s heavily implied in The Game that Mystery had been dealing with this kind of depression long before he started macking on chicks. He hated his dad while he was there, and hated him more when he left.
“Wherever you go, there you are” — Buckaroo Banzai
@sfer This counts as actionable advice. I definitely need to work on that. does it? he’s not trying to fuck anyone, he’s not trying to get laid by those chicks. I guarantee you if you talk to models like you talk to chicks you just want to chill with or be friends with, you aren’t going anywhere. if you approach a model in a club the same way you approach a hot chick at the grocery store, you aren’t going anywhere due to the societal constraints and norms inherent to each place. or you know…calibration or whatever some shit. busting… Read more »
@mersonia
Mystery has solid Internals………. He’s just stuck looking for something people told him is suppose to be there but isn’t
WhatSposeTerBeButAint?
I didn’t know that betaized men have solid internals. Maybe they lost those internals somewhere along the way…you know, that Frame stuff.
So much of this frame and Game stuff is all about having the balls to just do it it seems particularly hard to give a concrete action plan
@Rollo
Were those the same people who told him if he just drives the car far enough he’ll get there?
…and get a new car when the current car runs out of gas
This counts as actionable advice. I definitely need to work on that. does it? he’s not trying to fuck anyone, he’s not trying to get laid by those chicks. I guarantee you if you talk to models like you talk to chicks you just want to chill with or be friends with, you aren’t going anywhere. if you approach a model in a club the same way you approach a hot chick at the grocery store, you aren’t going anywhere due to the societal constraints and norms inherent to each place. or you know…calibration or whatever some shit. busting a… Read more »
That’s outfuckingstanding Disgruntled!
Congrats my man!