SMV and the Aging Process

aging_process

A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:

I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD.

I just don’t get it. There are plenty of women closer to their ages and single, but yet they all go for the young women. I feel kind of sad for women entering the dating market, at least where I’m from because it seems women my age have no hope in competing with these younger, perkier women.

Just a rant I suppose. I don’t have anything against younger women of course, but I can’t help but feel a bit unnerved by the trend I see here.

This is an overt observation of what women understand from a very early age – women’s sexual marketability declines with age, while men’s (should) increases as they age. This woman’s concerns should come as no shock to any Red Pill aware man. It’s the clarion call of a woman who’s aging out of the SMP and on the tail end of her Epiphany Phase.

All women have conditions (prerequisites) for men in order for them to become intimate (sexual) with them; he’s got to be good looking, he’s got to be financially stable (surplus resources), he’s got to have some status, respectability, ambition, be confident, he has to be the initiator, he’s has to be decisive, he has to make an emotional connection with her, he’s got have ‘provider’ potential,..etc., etc. And the list goes on and on for any individual woman and according to her ability (i.e. looks) to demand each condition. Each of these personal conditions for intimacy is set in a priority order depending on her ability to demand them and this demand is mediated by her age relative to her attractiveness to men.

It’s no secret that a woman’s sexual marketability declines as she ages and men’s increases as he ages. As a woman ages she progressively loses her ability to physically attract a mate (his one condition for intimacy), thus her conditions and their priority order shift accordingly because she is forced to compete with younger, more attractive women for the same pool of eligible men.

These men tend to be the ones best able to provide for her long term security and any resulting offspring. Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy, in their existing priority order, the more suitable he becomes for that intimacy and the harder she will compete with other women to achieve his long term commitment.

Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. While pre-menopausal women do in fact experience a spike in their testosterone levels and a resulting sex drive increase prior to the last of their eggs dropping, it is women between the ages of 18 and 26 that are in fact in their prime fertility stages. Women’s bodies in this age range are far better prepared for the rigors of pregnancy. At no other phase in her life is she more sexually active and most capable of commanding the attentions of the best male meeting her conditional criteria and in their most strict order. However these conditions are still mediated by her physical attractiveness – thus, if she’s fat her conditions (and their priority) will be adjusted accordingly – but she is nonetheless at her personal prime in this phase.

Unsurprisingly we see in most cultures older males striving for the attentions of the younger and more attractive females, but in western culture he becomes vilified and shamed for this – or at least that’s what western feminized women would like to be the case. The most common complaint women in their mid-thirties bemoan is that “There’s no good men” or they can’t understand why men just can’t “grow up” and find them more attractive than the young women they used to be themselves.

Increasingly, ‘careerist women’ desiring to finally start a family at age 35 find that men – particularly the ones that meet their conditions – in their age range (33-38) are not interested in women (to say nothing of ‘careerist women’) of their own age range. They’re interested in the 22 year olds who wouldn’t give them the time of day when they didn’t have the status (or maturity) that they’ve just discovered they now have. And of course the 35 year old career woman was one of these 22 year old girls, only 13 years prior, who was doing precisely the same thing the 22 year old girls are doing today.

But that doesn’t stop 30 something women from complaining about how men their age are ‘infantile’ for wanting to breed with ‘little girls’, rather than mature, intelligent, respectable career women such as themselves. They are incapable of conceiving why men ‘wont live up to their responsibilities’ and commit to a lifetime with them. They write article after article about how men are in fact threatened by their ‘successfulness’ or their ‘status’, when the simple fact remains that his breeding choices are dictated by one single condition – she’s got to be hot. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. The mid-thirties woman is (with a few notable exceptions) simply not as attractive as younger women.

So as an unspoken reaction to this predicament we get to see the popularity of the idea that “You can be 40 and still ‘have it'” among women. “Those men and their fragile egos just don’t know what they’re missing. How dare they be aroused by, and date younger more attractive women, we’ll show them”, they’d have them believe and pander to this dynamic while encouraging the fallacy that ‘men ought to be ashamed of their sexual impulse.

And finally we encounter the 40+ woman looking for what she couldn’t get in her 30s. Her priorities and conditions for intimacy have been altered radically now. At 40, the career woman has abandoned the idea of long term commitment; she may make up some sort of internalized blame for men not accepting her, but the truth comes that time has or is running out.

Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them.

They’re virile, young, dumb and full of cum. That’ll show those immature older men who don’t know how to commit! She’ll beat ’em at their own game. “Look at what I’ve got! A hot guy (relative, actually) who knows how to pleasure an older woman”; again shaming and insinuating older men’s sexual performance isn’t up to ‘women’s standards’. All conditions for intimacy and the priority orders she had before are out the window with the exception of physical attractiveness now, which, interestingly enough, has been a man’s only condition since he hit puberty. She’s come full circle, only now she makes an effort to enhance her appearance in the gym, with plastic surgery, Botox, breast augmentation, anything that will increase the attraction for young guys.

And of course the young guys are all too happy to ‘fill that hole’ (pun intended) since the effort required to get after it with the 40+ is practically nil and the rejection ratio is far lower. In addition most 22 year old guys know an LTR is more or less out of the question; they may be a booty call for her, but that’s an ideal situation for him, sex on demand with no expectation of any form of security for her. They like to make up reasonings like “she’s more experienced in bed” or “we’re both in our sexual primes”, but this just serves to justify him being a booty call, as if he’d have a problem with that.

The real irony of the whole situation is that 40+ woman is now doing exactly what she mercilessly criticized these ‘immature’, problematic 30-40 something men for doing. However, we don’t see any articles telling women to grow up, or to do the right thing or how infantile they are for sexually desiring younger men. On the contrary, they’re applauded for ‘bucking the system’ and embracing their sexual natures (as if they were formerly repressed) and “You go girl!” using isolated celebrity examples like Demi Moore fucking Ashton Kutcher as a role model.

The SMP After Marriage

For a long while I’ve been content to let bloggers like Athol Kay address sexual dynamics post-marriage (or LTR). I don’t think it’s any real secret that Married Man Sex Life has been more than compromised by a feminine-correct influence and the discussion is now directed by women’s imperatives there. This has been the forum’s state for some time now. So as such, I feel it’s kind of incumbent upon me to open myself up to addressing Red Pill issues within marriage (or LTRs) for the foreseeable future. This is just an avenue I’ll be opening up here, not a particular focus, don’t worry.

The following was a comment from YaReally in last week’s thread. I thought this more or less summed up the disconnect he believes exists between Old Married Guys (OMGs) and Young Single Guys (YSGs) who both have enough Red Pill awareness to want to employ it in their marriages as well as the plates they’re spinning as a PUA:

Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we’re happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that’s awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives’ pics in the “post your idea of a 10” threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it’s simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.

This is an interesting paradox for OMGs, but I think it’s also not accounting for how sexual priorities and Frame shifts as a couple matures. The most glaring shift is of course maturing men’s SMV comparative to their wives’ will almost always be an order of magnitude above that of their wives’. As I laid out in Preventive Medicine, at this stage of maturity the task for wives becomes one of keeping that husband in the dark about his real SMV status; the concern being his sexual disinterest in her and him coming to a realization of his SMV and he leaves her for ‘younger, hotter, tighter’. Whether this is an actual threat is often inconsequential – unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it – what occurs at this phase of a woman’s maturity is either a passive form of Dread or a feeling of regret for not having better optimized Hypergamy for herself so late in life.

Most men (i.e. Blue Pill Betas) never make this connection and blunder through their peak SMV years with a wife whose late-life competition anxiety sounds like nagging most of the time, or else it’s a possessive Frame grab with the latent purpose of keeping him focused on “her needs” rather than coming to understand he’s in the best position to capitalize on his SMV in his lifetime. This is actually part of the Blue Pill, feminine-correct plan for maintaining an optimal Hypergamy (or at least the impression of it) for women.

I’ve mentioned countless times on this blog that men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38 depending upon how well he’s established himself in a variety of ways that contribute to it. As Red Pill awareness grows I (hopefully) expect more men will be able to capitalize on their moment of clarity as well as use this peak moment to enjoy and choose what’s best for themselves and their futures with regards to women. When men reach this peak it is generally a point at which women are also at their most necessitous (i.e. the Epiphany Phase). This simple matter of logistics also contributes to that man’s peak SMV in the form of making his commitment a valued commodity – presuming he’s built himself into that peak in the years prior to it.

My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so threatening that it causes dread in his wife. I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife, and particularly if, up until this phase, she’s firmly dictated the Frame of their relationship since marriage.

I should add that this advice isn’t meant as some form of punishment or a big ‘get even’ with a man’s wife, but rather, a man pressing his SMV advantage at this point, to the point of instilling dread, will form a more solid attachment with his dominant Frame being the primary one – which is something his wife has likely craved for their marriage since the outset.

What YaReally (probably inadvertently) is revealing here is that women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction.

Feminine-primary social conventions build this into a man’s Blue Pill conditioning so he believes that a marriage “always requires a lot of work” before and after he’s been married. This is why Athol’s Blue Pill advice of not overdoing the Alpha is so in error; it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.

Pop culture likes to call this effect “wife goggles”, but that’s a euphemism for how feminine-primary social conventions have conditioned men to feel a need to pander to their wife’s insecurity. In doing so they self-defeat any positive effect that this natural dread would benefit him and his relationship with his wife. If a man makes a conscious choice to limit himself in the phase of his life where he can best capitalize on his peak SMV this lifts the burden of a woman being the focus of him having to do so to make her feel secure.

And all of this has been about married men; feminine-primary social conventions have a whole set of social dictates intended to get a single man in this phase of life to willfully limit his own options. This is why we get shaming tactics and presumptions of ego-centrism for men in this demographic. This is why they’re called commit-o-phobes; because the hope is that these men will feel some measure of inappropriateness about their natural sexual impulses and choose an older women as a choice of mate. A woman who, again, is at her most necessitous and insecure about her future in the SMP or her long term prospectives.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@scrib “@Scray and Sentient – Is alpha really axiomatically exclusive of material provisioning? Like if you provision, you cannot be alpha?” Material provisioning is the epitome of beta. What can a man provide a woman with that she doesn’t already have/have access to via other men? Short term, it’s definitely beta. Negotiation of desire and all. Ltr/marriage? I mean it still seems beta to me. Why provide for a woman at all, particularly if she has a job herself? Material provisioning is appealing to the betabux side of female sexuality. Sure you can do it strategically, but it’s still beta.… Read more »

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@scray

“you can be relatively alpha in spite of provisioning. but provisioning/providing = beta trait. always and forever”

Yes, well said. That’s pretty much exactly what I was trying to get at lol I usually lurk, not particularly skilled at putting my thoughts to paper , but I’ve been getting interested in the comments on these last few posts

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

” Material provisioning is appealing to the betabux side of female sexuality. Sure you can do it strategically, but it’s still beta.”

Not in every circumstance.

If a man uses provisioning with expectations that it’s ” what he’s supposed to do in life ” or ” it’s how you keep her “. then he is setting himself up and doing it wrong.

scray
scray
7 years ago

@blax

r is a man automatically and forever a beta strictly by the act of ltr’s or provisioning for a wife or offspring?

no one is saying that.

provisioning = beta trait.

just like LTR/monogamy = beta traits.

now, maybe relative to other dudes who share similar traits you are more alpha, but that doesn’t change the fact that those traits are beta traits.

scray
scray
7 years ago

@blax

If a man uses provisioning with expectations that it’s ” what he’s supposed to do in life ” or ” it’s how you keep her “. then he is setting himself up and doing it wrong.

no, if he does it at all it is part of the beta reproductive strategy. the hamstering has to stop lol.

it’s just a beta trait. and that’s okay. so what?

why are you guys so afraid of possessing a beta trait or five or six lol

Forge the Sky
7 years ago

I think we need to be careful to distinguish between talking about alpha and beta traits and alpha and beta men.

I’ve linked this before, but Scray’s point seems pretty similar to this:

https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/to-whatever-self-be-true/

(It’s a 3-part series of posts, you can find links to the next part at the bottom if interested)

scray
scray
7 years ago

@forge

you can only judge alpha and beta between men if you put them relative to one another.

that’s why a dude can have like 9/10 beta traits but still be alpha relative to the dude who has 10/10 beta traits.

so yeah, just talking about the traits is easiest. that little slider/continuum is pretty good.

the point about congruence is good. Congruence is king after all.

However, I don’t really think that it’s all about ‘moving all sliders at once.’ People just resist change.

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

” Is alpha really axiomatically exclusive of material provisioning? Like if you provision, you cannot be alpha?” Hes just saying that provisioning is a beta action , that satisfies the beta bucks side of hypergamy. From Rollo we know that for long term relationships you will want to satisfy AF and BB both. This analogy of alpha=good, beta=bad is a misrepresentation and there are even guys getting offended because of it (when someone says provisioning is beta). Alpha/beta doesnt have moral value in this sense (does it have moral value in any sense? idk). Talking about “beta husband” is another… Read more »

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

Aaah, late to the party as usual.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

And if provisioning is not part of the beta reproductive strategy i.e. I do this to get that… Then it is not “beta”… Or alpha LoL. It simply is.

Now what is alpha? Dynamic, passionate and authentic.

thedeti
7 years ago

@ Hollenhund: “Yes. The only difference I’m noticing now vis a vis, say, 20 years ago, is that there appear (at least to me) to be more and more physically attractive women in that age group. Women are taking better care of themselves now, or more of them are. “Do you happen to live in some relatively safe and neat, mostly white and/or Asian, middle-class and/or upper-class neighborhood, by any chance? In that case, it all sounds plausible. On a national level, it doesn’t. The available data contradicts it, or at least I’m pretty sure that’s the case.” Yeah, I… Read more »

Agent P
Agent P
7 years ago

With regards to the cultural use of the word “sex” is what you are describing not best encapsulated by it’s transition from being an adjective to a verb?

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Forge

Thanks for the link!!

That series was extremely interesting. So much so that I gotta read it twice.

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@blax

“If a man uses provisioning with expectations that it’s ” what he’s supposed to do in life ” or ” it’s how you keep her “. then he is setting himself up and doing it wrong.”

What other purposes for provisioning are there? Well being of the offspring is all I can think of, but even then it still serves her just the same

Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Scray “you can only judge alpha and beta between men if you put them relative to one another. that’s why a dude can have like 9/10 beta traits but still be alpha relative to the dude who has 10/10 beta traits.” More or less, and women will tend to choose the most alpha (for short-term stuff at least) that she sees in the vincinity. Then jump ship if a more alpha dude shows. Hypergamy and all. There is an attraction floor, but this is generally true. “the point about congruence is good. Congruence is king after all. However, I don’t… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ Eon56

I’m not trying to be glib here, but the question shows me that your understanding is FI conditioned.

Seriously, not jabbing at you.

One never does anything in the hopes of ” keeping the woman “. This includes any provisioning.

I thought this stuff was fairly clear? Why do guys like to circle back around to the ” beta ” aspect so often?

scray
scray
7 years ago

@forge I mean, you don’t want to follow the idea off a cliff, but one trait waaay out of character with the rest will tend to make people a bit uneasy. to me that’s just someone having a mix of alpha and beta traits, like most everyone does. some dudes interrupt a lot but are little bitches when it comes to sex and so on and so on. every dude has a natural mix of more alpha more beta traits. you can move all the sliders up or just one and you’ll get the same reaction because you’re acting different.… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@blax

I thought this stuff was fairly clear? Why do guys like to circle back around to the ” beta ” aspect so often?

because dude, you can say all day long that there is some other mystical reason for doing x y or z.

it doesn’t change the looks like, walks like, talks like a duck aspect of things.

you can hamster yourself into thinking you’re doing shit for all sorts of reasons.

but the fact is that provisioning and care for offspring are BETA STRATEGIES. that’s just it. the end.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Eon56

Do you enjoy steak? Which is more alpha cabernet or pinot noir? Is chablis beta?

The subjects in my kingdom get the benefit of its largess… But it is my kingdom for my purpose.

Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Blax

No prob man! I thought it was interesting too, surprised it doesn’t get a bit more play around these parts.

I suspect you’d like this one: https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/energy-of-activation/

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

” but the fact is that provisioning and care for offspring are BETA STRATEGIES. that’s just it. the end.”

Maybe it’s the ” STRATEGY ” part that evades me.

Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Scray, Blax

I suppose the question is, can you do a beta thing from an alpha frame? That seems to be what Blax is saying he’s doing (though I don’t want to put words in his mouth).

Alpha and Beta in Rollospeak are mostly about frame rather than specific actions.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ Forge

Thanks again. Like I’ve said before, I didn’t know any of the Alpha vs Beta stuff until recently, and I see that there is still a fair amount of confusion concerning what’s what.

But from my perspective ( and that’s mostly all I’ve got irl to go on ), the most alpha dudes I’ve ever known were mostly family men. I don’t accept the idea that caring for your family can only ever be done in a beta context.

On to the next article!!!

Matt
Matt
7 years ago

Yes, peak men at 35 IF they do everything right. They then can take advantage of post party phase women. But no matter how established he is, he’s still stuck with shitty options if he wants to marry. Very few women will go past 8 year age difference unless it’s serious money being offered. And, in that case, enjoy your prostitute if your looks significantly differ (and enjoy your divorce). Everyone on here already knows the tired divorce statistics tied to partner count. Advancing age is as good a proxy for women’s partner count as anything else. And don’t forget.… Read more »

anon
anon
7 years ago

Is obtaining a personal legacy beta?
Is striving to obtain a personal legacy beta?
Or is it beta only if that personal legacy happens to be progeny?

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Reply to  anon

Been going to new dances. About to go to rugby practice and I realize that my life is wonderful.
http://wp.me/p4tvpM-1Nzp
http://wp.me/p4tvpM-1Nzl
http://wp.me/pXWyH-9XM

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ Forge

Thanks for pointing me to hvren. Lotsa cool stuff there.

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

FR on public transport, 4-set Approach Invite. I missed out on the Halloween (did a few approaches in a social circle setting, basically). Logistics with respect to my wife didn’t pan out, it would look very strange going out without her due to circumstances so I missed out on “Easy mode” this year. On the flipside, I got a very blatant Approach Invite today. I was on public transport coming from the airport with my luggage. I thought my suitcase was propped up but it was obscured by a seat. A 4-set gets in and one of the girls leans… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@forge I suppose the question is, can you do a beta thing from an alpha frame? That seems to be what Blax is saying he’s doing (though I don’t want to put words in his mouth). lol can a woman be a “quality” woman who has a bunch of cats, no family, single at 45 if she does it from a ‘quality woman’ frame? @blax Maybe it’s the ” STRATEGY ” part that evades me. alpha and beta describe different reproductive strategies. alphas have such high quality genes that women mate with them and accept zero investment in child rearing/bonding… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Reply to  scray

Women never want full disclosure
http://wp.me/p4tvpM-1Nz6

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Reply to  scray
newlyaloof
7 years ago

@Scray, “alphas have such high quality genes that women mate with them and accept zero investment in child rearing/bonding because the genes are such that the child will likely survive and thrive without them, thus it is short-term mating strategy for reproduction” So this begs the question, if women are MATING with alpha, but they are using the pill, or the dude is using a rubber, is the alpha still alpha? I ask this because if the girl isn’t truly mating and creating babies with alphas, then these girls are actually controlling the outcome of the interaction. Thus, by the… Read more »

SFC Ton
7 years ago

It’s intresting watching men take offense to certain things like thevery notion providing for kids makes you beta. So providing for my kids makes me beta to some dude on the interwebz? Cool. Certainly sounds plausible. Don’t rightly care either way. Some other dude on the interwebz will say owning your own company makes you alpha…Cool. Certainly sounds plausible. Don’t rightly care either way. Though it would seem the two contradict each other at some point. Always to much ego vested in the wrong kind of shit which leads to a bunch of squabbling over dumb shit leading me to… Read more »

SFC Ton
7 years ago

The cool factor comment is also intresting

Yes chicks of all ages dig the cool factor but in a real way men don’t maximize the cool factor until later in life. Takes a while to accumulate the various experiences and attitudes that makes one cool

Example

Playing the guitar makes you kind cool at 16; playing in some local bars makes you cool at 20; touring for 5 months at 30 makes you fucking awesome sort of thing

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@Newly Aloof:

Drives are there to ensure outcomes, but that doesn’t imply that they are directly connected to the outcome.

The hunger drive and the taste reward are there to ensure that you eat, and eat something like the right stuff, so that you survive. A person gorging on Cheetos is doing so according to the drive and reward, but they are not eating for survival.

MikePhil
MikePhil
7 years ago

Jesus, the Elizabeth Wurtzel photo; I realize she’s 47 but it just goes to show it’s the mileage that tells, not the years…..

Read her article, and noted the part where she admitted she cheated on the good guy because the allure of bad boys was too much for her to resist. You almost never a woman admit that, and it’s refreshing to read.

Maybe if she had settled down then, she wouldn’t look like Carol Channing with a meth habit now.

Chump No More
Chump No More
7 years ago

@scray “provisioning = beta trait. just like LTR/monogamy = beta traits.” If Alpha is a mindset and not a demographic, then Beta must be equally so. Provisioning is neither Alpha nor Beta, it’s an action or behavior… but mindset does drive the intent and the tone.. From Rollo’s ‘The Myth of the Good Guy’, “There is only the man who’s genuine concern is first for himself, the man who prepares and provisions for himself, the man who maintains Frame to the point of arrogance because that’s who he is and what he genuinely merits. There is only the Man who… Read more »

mersonia
7 years ago

@chump

“Provisioning is neither Alpha nor Beta, it’s an action or behavior… but mindset does drive the intent and the tone..”

you gotta stop trying to rationalize this stuff.

scray
scray
7 years ago

@chump no more Provisioning is neither Alpha nor Beta, it’s an action or behavior… but mindset does drive the intent and the tone.. lol yeah dude w/e Beta invariably = provisioning, but provisioning does not necessarily = Beta. yes it does. it’s literally part of the beta PROVIDER strategy. Unfortunately, ~99.9% of men provision for truly beta reasons, from every possible Frame but their own, and women are particularly adept at picking up and leveraging the intent and tone. In that context, you’d be right. let’s just assume this is true. then it’s already lol because you’re spending a lot… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@mer

lol seriously

comment image

Anonymous REeader
Anonymous REeader
7 years ago

This one, including the married man area, feel so true and for those of us who missed our primes (35-40) and opportunities there, and remain in a marriage with a much lower SMV partner… well, the struggle is real. Brings up an interesting question. We have techniques via Game to spark up a woman’s sexual attraction when a man has allowed himself to be Betaized. What about the reverse? I’m sure there are men in LTR’s / marriages who lurk here who just are not all that attracted to their women anymore. Getting betaized, having her turn into a perpetually… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
7 years ago

A few points to consider here, and no, I don’t have a definitive answer or even disagreement with anyone here. Just more thoughts. 1. Alpha/Beta is a very limited model. It barely works in the animal kingdom. Example, in wolf packs there is an alpha male and and alpha female. There are examples of female alphas leading packs. Read this story http://tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com/2014/01/19/she-wolf-rise-of-the-alpha-female/ In fact, the reason the female wolf assumes the alpha role is because the wolf she ended up mating with wasn’t able to provide for and protect the pack – what the fuck? Alpha in that context includes… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago

Andy
How are you doing?

scribblerg
scribblerg
7 years ago

Correction on Bilzerian example. If he is fucking her but doesn’t just ignore her afterwards until he’s horny again, and even lets her stay at his place and maybe pays her cell phone bill so it doesn’t get turned off, is that Beta?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

myrealitie
I am currently 32, and when I was 18-24 before I met my husband I (and all my friends) were creeped out by over 35.

That’s nice, dearie, but you’re wrong in mulitiple ways. It is not an accident that the peak years for frivorce appear to be 35 to 45, for example; branch swinging to a better branch .
Plus many men here know more about how to pick up girls under 25 than you do, because they’ve done it. I’m betting you have not.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Megawit
Oh yes, And YAWN…. at the abundance of unsolicited tripe some guys are writing on here yet again.

Post a link to your website where you do a better job than Rollo.
Thanks in advance for all your work and thoughts.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ scrib You know me, I’m going to attempt to use myself as an example because at one time I’d gone full beta, and I’ll cut off my nuts before ever doing it again. Growing up, I’d learned some skills. One being carpentry/roofing/lite masonry/dry walling. The males in my family taught most of the boys of my generation these things. My Dad did not own his own home until late in life. This bothered me to no end for some reason, and I always wanted to own my own property as a result…of some kind. So as soon as I… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
7 years ago

From self be true article

finally, i’ll leave you with some shit that will shake your understanding of relationships to its very core:
now, make all four of the foregoing changes at once.
dude is now a rude, bossy horndog who is too distant…
…and wifey/gf loves every minute of it.

I’ll think of the above as the chill asshole smacking the missus around…and she’s getting off. I love it! Yes!

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ scrib Oh yeah, I forgot…. I treat people I care about as well as is reasonable. Your Bilzerian example, I’d help a chick out if I felt like it. Never help people out and expect any return on investment, ever. If I enjoy a chicks company, she’s welcome until she’s not, for whatever reason. I used to take women to altlantic city in my single days. I paid for the room, and the food, and the gas to get there. I never had any issues with that, because I was going to go regardless, even if I just went… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago
Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Anon reader

If your guys are not going to do ANYTHING but bleed out… Well then they should just get into a comfortable position.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

KFG

Looks like my dinner table some nights… Lol

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

lol

hank holiday
hank holiday
7 years ago

@Megawit Some men just HAVE this. Game, age & resource-related SMV increases etc. can only compensate for so much. Women will naturally be drawn to the top 15~20% of men looks wise (e.g. shoulder to hip ratio, test. & GH influence in facial bone structure – evolutionarily VERY important in attracting women), irrespective of age, within the pool of 20–38yr old men. LOOK AT THAT SEXY PASTY REDHEADED BEAST!!! What a prime display of superior genetics. No wonder he gets so many hot chicks. Like, seriously, screw girls, I just want to be gay with that dude. Hes that hot.… Read more »

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

Provisioning and is it “beta”? No. I pay for girls drinks or taxis, or cook all the time. But when I do there’s a clear expectation that they will contribute somehow: bring something, wear something, bang me…something. It’s not about the money, it’s about the behavior. I went out with an HB8 2 weeks ago. I gamed her, got her out. Paying wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t expensive. I look at this as “It’s the thought that counts”—did she put ANY thought into the evening? In that case, she dressed up hot, was fun, danced with me…it got social proof… Read more »

Looking For Zion
Looking For Zion
7 years ago

Here’s Jamie Lee Curtis literally crying for women who have passed the wall. She laments how invisible they are. Fascinating peek into the female psyche.

http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2016/09/23/jamie-lee-curtis-this-is-me

scray
scray
7 years ago

@wala But when I do there’s a clear expectation that they will contribute somehow: bring something, wear something, bang me…something. that’s literally the beta provisioning/provider strategy lol it is quid pro quo…. @all alpha = how can i fuck this chick without that stupid fucken gayass feelz shit beta = i like spending time with her and it’d be cool to fuck too THE LESS YOU HAVE TO DO TO FUCK WITHOUT “THAT STUPID FUCKEN GAYASS FEELZ SHIT” = MORE ALPHA. END OF STORY. IF IT AIN’T ALPHA IT’S FUCKEN BETA. PERIOD. LIKE, ON THE RAG. DRENCHED. PLEASE GET THIS… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@all

corollary –>

and this is crucial…so i’m going to say it again….

YOU CAN, AND PRETTY MUCH DO, HAVE A MIX OF BOTH.

Sometimes you need to go a little beta, just a bit, to get the girl comfortable enough with you.
Sometimes you need to go a little beta if you want various other things too — in life but also with women.

Why?

Because not everything boils down to just tingles.

You need the tingles, but you need other shit too lol.
Pick-Up Artist

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Looking for Zion
Here’s Jamie Lee Curtis literally crying for women who have passed the wall.

She looks a lot like her father, Tony Curtis. A LOT like her father. That might be part of her issue.

scray
scray
7 years ago

@all Lol I’m on a roll so hat trick. I said already that the best words for scoring the SNL IME are “I feel really comfortable with you.” (as you’re in full kno just chilling or hanging out) Like, most natural AMOGs are very good at coming in and dropping bombs and spiking temperature and other shit, but just a tiny bit of calibration will pretty much inoculate her against that…. why? because you’re the guy who cares … just a bit.. …. awwwwwwwwwe…. the game isn’t ALL attraction. you guys ever notice that even in the old model like….attraction… Read more »

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

@Scray Having an expectation of certain behavior isn’t beta, it’s having a set of clear standards. If standards aren’t met, if there are no boundaries, it’s just whatever, whenever and nothing gets done. Women do need a container of some kind, it’s how they respect you. If you don’t lay out what those expectations are, then you’re just either so disengaged that nothing matters or you’re quietly and passive aggressively building up a case and then blowing up. All girls are different…some “get it” and pull their weight. Others need to be explicitly told: “This is unacceptable…” They CRAVE being… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@wala Having an expectation of certain behavior isn’t beta, it’s having a set of clear standards. If standards aren’t met, if there are no boundaries, it’s just whatever, whenever and nothing gets done. providing resources in exchange for time/sex/etc. whatever is a beta trait. and that is what you said: ” I pay for girls drinks or taxis, or cook all the time. But when I do there’s a clear expectation that they will contribute somehow” Being decisive is alpha. ok. “deciding” to pay a hot woman’s way in exchange for sex must be ‘alpha’ now too, right? lol c’mon… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@wala

As for being a little bit beta to build comfort…that’s over simplifying it. It’s calibration

that is calibration dude lol….cooling off on the alpha at just the right time, pouring it on at just the right time. like this why I’m lolling and giffing and shit because it just goes to show that — and there’s really no other way to say it at this point — there’s some serious foundation FIELD-based gaps in knowledge among the OMGs and that shit is starting to infect people who are trying to get out there and hustle.

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@ Blax “I’m not trying to be glib here, but the question shows me that your understanding is FI conditioned.” What. My question reveals nothing, it’s the obvious question to ask in response to your comment. You told me what the wrong reasons to do it are, so I ask what reason is. From reading yours and other comments since then.. the closest thing I’ve seen to an answer is.. @Chump no more: “Provisioning is neither Alpha nor Beta, it’s an action or behavior… but mindset does drive the intent and the tone..” That just doesn’t make sense though. Men… Read more »

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

Above should be:

*I ask you what the right reason is*

NewbieOnPoint
NewbieOnPoint
7 years ago

@scrib ” Is alpha really axiomatically exclusive of material provisioning? Like if you provision, you cannot be alpha?” @Blaximus “There is such a beast as an alpha husband. I believe I have witnessed quite a few ( just not many recently ).” Is being alpha and satisfying a woman’s hypergamy(AF/BB) the same thing? The way I see this is that the “alpha husbands” you are talikng about Blaximus, are men who create attraction for their wives AND they also satisfy their hypergamy. The more these husbands’ behavior/mindset comes closer to what scray describes as 100% alpha(this guy wouldn’t provide anything)… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@rollo ok well this whole mindset stuff just seems an awful lot like a way to hamster everything under the sun as alpha ‘so long as you FELT LIKE IT BRO’ instead, there should be a more holistic approach taken that just freaking acknowledges that LTRs (including pLTRs) require a balance of alpha and beta traits. it’s just silly to say ‘YEAH BRO I’M SUCH A MARRIED ALPHA MALE’ when literally that’s a non-sequitur. instead, you’re just a dude who balances the alpha (desire) with the beta (keeping her from worrying too much about your continued support/presence to the point… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

” You don’t see them running around giving family or friends access to their bank accounts or handing them their checks, buying them silly shit.. And that’s because.. it’s a sexual strategy. Betabux.”

Not for every man.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

Wow, the ” hamster ” talk is getting real.

….but I’m gonna take Sun and scrib’s advice and not play along.

anon
anon
7 years ago

Sounds like Spray’s definition of “alpha” is ghetto values by another name.

Though I have no doubt there probably are more alphas in those types of environments.

anon
anon
7 years ago

Oops…autocorrect messed up the name.

Scray
Scray
7 years ago

@Rollo

Yes it boils down to if you felt like it.

Which just opens everything up to be rationalized in similar fashion, which now means any behavior can be alpha.

And if alpha can be anything it’s nothing.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

nuance

Scray
Scray
7 years ago

@anon

Loll….it’s just what evo psych people really mean by alpha….anything tending more toward cad.

mersonia
7 years ago

@anon
“Sounds like Spray’s definition of “alpha” is ghetto values by another name.

Though I have no doubt there probably are more alphas in those types of environments.”

Yeah

http://68.media.tumblr.com/5c9d0e3c2633b806c6c02098f88a3c8d/tumblr_miec0eZHLn1rwg8rco1_500.gif

Alpha defined at its root was never a great model of a citizen.. That’s why there’s the saying civilization would fall apart without betas.

Heartiste Considered Corey Worthington a Alpha Buddha or w/e.. and look at him.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

Subject= Provisioning, beta?

Things always swing off subject somehow.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

I provided a woman with a car once, but only after I set the ground rule that she would provide me with a bit more than fair market value in cash. I didn’t want the car anyway and the cash seemed like it would be useful to me. My neighbor lady feeds the birds (and as consequence the squirrels). I do not feed the birds. I do, for me, grow various flowers, berries, fruits and vegetable matter. As a consequence my yard is full of more birds, butterflies, bees, squirrels, wood chucks (those bastards love poppies), chipmunks, raccoons, possums and… Read more »

anon
anon
7 years ago

So…Genghis Khan was beta?
He provisioned.
A lot.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@anon:

Oooooooooh lawdy. I’ve already been a few rounds with Rollo over that one.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Eon56

You don’t see them running around giving family or friends access to their bank accounts or handing them their checks, buying them silly shit.. And that’s because.. it’s a sexual strategy. Betabux.

It can be a sexual strategy but only if that was your intent to make it so.

Is electricity beta?

anon
anon
7 years ago

kfg: lol sorry I missed it. 🙂

anon
anon
7 years ago

“Is criminal behavior an Alpha trait? Is public service a Beta trait?”

Wolf versus Sheep dog….

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@ anon

“So…Genghis Khan was beta?
He provisioned.
A lot.”

What else did he do? When I see the name Genghis Khan, provision isn’t the first thing that comes to my mind lol

anon
anon
7 years ago

“What else did he do? When I see the name Genghis Khan, provision isn’t the first thing that comes to my mind lol”

True. But if provisioning is the disqualifier (an extreme position), an extreme example would seem to make the point best.

anon
anon
7 years ago

Ol Genghis did some extremist provisioning. (come one kfg…)
lol

Scray
Scray
7 years ago

@Rollo

I didn’t avoid anything. I already said that provisioning = beta trait which would apply to all relationships.

Again 100% alpha = lifetime ONS

Thus anything beyond that must mix beta and alpha. One such hybrid may include the beta trait of provisioning.

EzPz.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“What else did he do?”

He built a cohesive nation where previously there were only warring, multi-ethnic tribes. That, in fact, was his mission.

After he had done that, so the story goes, he sent a couple of goodwill ambassadors to the Persian court, which responded by sending back their heads. This was such an egregious violation of civilized conduct (safe passage for ambassadors is an ancient custom) that the Great Khan decided the Persians needed to be taught a lesson in manners.

And so he also built an empire.

And he was a river to his people.

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

@rollo “If provisioning is inherently Beta, a pLTR arrangement is inherently Beta as well.” Provisioning is a beta trait. We dont call a man beta just because he has a beta trait or two or ten. We call him beta when hes predominantly beta. Same with pLTR. Its not beta because one aspect is beta. You can say its beta if most of its aspects are beta. Does the pairbonding with your primary (beta aspect) outweigh the alpha plate spinning? If you think it does then go ahead and accost it the horrific B-word. “According to this definition every marriage… Read more »

anon
anon
7 years ago

And after his father died, and his brother hid food from the family he killed his brother. He didn’t kill him to get the food for himself, he killed him because he didn’t share it with the whole family.
And after his wife was abducted, he went to that camp and got her out.
He didn’t just say, “Heh, already tapped that…”
Yes, he was a river to his people. And he built an empire.
He was also very serious about the business of provisioning.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

Mersonia should be chiming in at any moment now…..

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

@Rollo/Scray On the one hand Scray believes if you’re not alpha you’re beta, on the other he draws a distinction of zero investment= alpha provisioning of any kind=beta. The realities are much more nuanced. If you game and bang a lot of girls you start to see patterns. There are girls who are immediately needy and will throw themselves at you…read that as a red flag. There are girls who go along…but then don’t fuck, and if you do this more than 2 times, you’re wasting your time. There are maybe girls….these are the girls I just throw out a… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ MrT

so do you think that mindset and frame count for anything re: this subject?

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“He was also very serious about the business of provisioning.”

While he himself never owned much more than the clothes on this back, his “standard issue” weapons and his yurt.

When he conquered China and his men occupied the capital, he refused to live in the palace, remaining in his yurt outside the city walls. The city was for his people.

anon
anon
7 years ago

True.

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

If were discussing whether an action is alpha/beta, then no. But if you come up with an action that can be both, this notion will be challenged. Also I understood from the start that we were discussing sexual strategies (AF/BB). Thats why electricity, crimes, apples, career choices are irrelevant. Even though alpha beta is used for almost everything, I assumed we were talking sexual strategy where its distinguishable. @walawala “On the one hand Scray believes if you’re not alpha you’re beta” False. See my previous post. @all Can we drop this alpha=good, beta=bad shit? I know when we call someone… Read more »

Scray
Scray
7 years ago

@walla

Lol the nuance is the MIX of alpha and beta traits.

Not the ability to hamster everything into an alpha trait

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@ Scray What is your point in talking about beta vs. alpha actually? Rollo clearly defines his placeholder concept of Alpha. When he says: “But is a nominally Alpha guy, who has excess means and resources being “Beta” by providing for his wife & family? I don’t think that the act of provisioning is inherently Beta or Alpha, rather it’s the mindset and status of that guy that makes it so.” The greater beta, lesser alpha. In super zip codes this works fine. In any guys like Rollo’s, Blax’s, Sentient’s world this works fine. You don’t live in or near… Read more »

stuffinbox
7 years ago

Blax

I totaly agree with your stance on this matter,note one thing don’t bitchslap a non provisioning alpha smartass IRL it makes them cry and you will never hear the end of it from his alpha female partner.
Ask me how I know.

Kate
Kate
7 years ago

Beta= sole provider
Alpha = soul provider

🙂

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