SMV and the Aging Process

aging_process

A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:

I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD.

I just don’t get it. There are plenty of women closer to their ages and single, but yet they all go for the young women. I feel kind of sad for women entering the dating market, at least where I’m from because it seems women my age have no hope in competing with these younger, perkier women.

Just a rant I suppose. I don’t have anything against younger women of course, but I can’t help but feel a bit unnerved by the trend I see here.

This is an overt observation of what women understand from a very early age – women’s sexual marketability declines with age, while men’s (should) increases as they age. This woman’s concerns should come as no shock to any Red Pill aware man. It’s the clarion call of a woman who’s aging out of the SMP and on the tail end of her Epiphany Phase.

All women have conditions (prerequisites) for men in order for them to become intimate (sexual) with them; he’s got to be good looking, he’s got to be financially stable (surplus resources), he’s got to have some status, respectability, ambition, be confident, he has to be the initiator, he’s has to be decisive, he has to make an emotional connection with her, he’s got have ‘provider’ potential,..etc., etc. And the list goes on and on for any individual woman and according to her ability (i.e. looks) to demand each condition. Each of these personal conditions for intimacy is set in a priority order depending on her ability to demand them and this demand is mediated by her age relative to her attractiveness to men.

It’s no secret that a woman’s sexual marketability declines as she ages and men’s increases as he ages. As a woman ages she progressively loses her ability to physically attract a mate (his one condition for intimacy), thus her conditions and their priority order shift accordingly because she is forced to compete with younger, more attractive women for the same pool of eligible men.

These men tend to be the ones best able to provide for her long term security and any resulting offspring. Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy, in their existing priority order, the more suitable he becomes for that intimacy and the harder she will compete with other women to achieve his long term commitment.

Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. While pre-menopausal women do in fact experience a spike in their testosterone levels and a resulting sex drive increase prior to the last of their eggs dropping, it is women between the ages of 18 and 26 that are in fact in their prime fertility stages. Women’s bodies in this age range are far better prepared for the rigors of pregnancy. At no other phase in her life is she more sexually active and most capable of commanding the attentions of the best male meeting her conditional criteria and in their most strict order. However these conditions are still mediated by her physical attractiveness – thus, if she’s fat her conditions (and their priority) will be adjusted accordingly – but she is nonetheless at her personal prime in this phase.

Unsurprisingly we see in most cultures older males striving for the attentions of the younger and more attractive females, but in western culture he becomes vilified and shamed for this – or at least that’s what western feminized women would like to be the case. The most common complaint women in their mid-thirties bemoan is that “There’s no good men” or they can’t understand why men just can’t “grow up” and find them more attractive than the young women they used to be themselves.

Increasingly, ‘careerist women’ desiring to finally start a family at age 35 find that men – particularly the ones that meet their conditions – in their age range (33-38) are not interested in women (to say nothing of ‘careerist women’) of their own age range. They’re interested in the 22 year olds who wouldn’t give them the time of day when they didn’t have the status (or maturity) that they’ve just discovered they now have. And of course the 35 year old career woman was one of these 22 year old girls, only 13 years prior, who was doing precisely the same thing the 22 year old girls are doing today.

But that doesn’t stop 30 something women from complaining about how men their age are ‘infantile’ for wanting to breed with ‘little girls’, rather than mature, intelligent, respectable career women such as themselves. They are incapable of conceiving why men ‘wont live up to their responsibilities’ and commit to a lifetime with them. They write article after article about how men are in fact threatened by their ‘successfulness’ or their ‘status’, when the simple fact remains that his breeding choices are dictated by one single condition – she’s got to be hot. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. The mid-thirties woman is (with a few notable exceptions) simply not as attractive as younger women.

So as an unspoken reaction to this predicament we get to see the popularity of the idea that “You can be 40 and still ‘have it'” among women. “Those men and their fragile egos just don’t know what they’re missing. How dare they be aroused by, and date younger more attractive women, we’ll show them”, they’d have them believe and pander to this dynamic while encouraging the fallacy that ‘men ought to be ashamed of their sexual impulse.

And finally we encounter the 40+ woman looking for what she couldn’t get in her 30s. Her priorities and conditions for intimacy have been altered radically now. At 40, the career woman has abandoned the idea of long term commitment; she may make up some sort of internalized blame for men not accepting her, but the truth comes that time has or is running out.

Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them.

They’re virile, young, dumb and full of cum. That’ll show those immature older men who don’t know how to commit! She’ll beat ’em at their own game. “Look at what I’ve got! A hot guy (relative, actually) who knows how to pleasure an older woman”; again shaming and insinuating older men’s sexual performance isn’t up to ‘women’s standards’. All conditions for intimacy and the priority orders she had before are out the window with the exception of physical attractiveness now, which, interestingly enough, has been a man’s only condition since he hit puberty. She’s come full circle, only now she makes an effort to enhance her appearance in the gym, with plastic surgery, Botox, breast augmentation, anything that will increase the attraction for young guys.

And of course the young guys are all too happy to ‘fill that hole’ (pun intended) since the effort required to get after it with the 40+ is practically nil and the rejection ratio is far lower. In addition most 22 year old guys know an LTR is more or less out of the question; they may be a booty call for her, but that’s an ideal situation for him, sex on demand with no expectation of any form of security for her. They like to make up reasonings like “she’s more experienced in bed” or “we’re both in our sexual primes”, but this just serves to justify him being a booty call, as if he’d have a problem with that.

The real irony of the whole situation is that 40+ woman is now doing exactly what she mercilessly criticized these ‘immature’, problematic 30-40 something men for doing. However, we don’t see any articles telling women to grow up, or to do the right thing or how infantile they are for sexually desiring younger men. On the contrary, they’re applauded for ‘bucking the system’ and embracing their sexual natures (as if they were formerly repressed) and “You go girl!” using isolated celebrity examples like Demi Moore fucking Ashton Kutcher as a role model.

The SMP After Marriage

For a long while I’ve been content to let bloggers like Athol Kay address sexual dynamics post-marriage (or LTR). I don’t think it’s any real secret that Married Man Sex Life has been more than compromised by a feminine-correct influence and the discussion is now directed by women’s imperatives there. This has been the forum’s state for some time now. So as such, I feel it’s kind of incumbent upon me to open myself up to addressing Red Pill issues within marriage (or LTRs) for the foreseeable future. This is just an avenue I’ll be opening up here, not a particular focus, don’t worry.

The following was a comment from YaReally in last week’s thread. I thought this more or less summed up the disconnect he believes exists between Old Married Guys (OMGs) and Young Single Guys (YSGs) who both have enough Red Pill awareness to want to employ it in their marriages as well as the plates they’re spinning as a PUA:

Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we’re happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that’s awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives’ pics in the “post your idea of a 10” threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it’s simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.

This is an interesting paradox for OMGs, but I think it’s also not accounting for how sexual priorities and Frame shifts as a couple matures. The most glaring shift is of course maturing men’s SMV comparative to their wives’ will almost always be an order of magnitude above that of their wives’. As I laid out in Preventive Medicine, at this stage of maturity the task for wives becomes one of keeping that husband in the dark about his real SMV status; the concern being his sexual disinterest in her and him coming to a realization of his SMV and he leaves her for ‘younger, hotter, tighter’. Whether this is an actual threat is often inconsequential – unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it – what occurs at this phase of a woman’s maturity is either a passive form of Dread or a feeling of regret for not having better optimized Hypergamy for herself so late in life.

Most men (i.e. Blue Pill Betas) never make this connection and blunder through their peak SMV years with a wife whose late-life competition anxiety sounds like nagging most of the time, or else it’s a possessive Frame grab with the latent purpose of keeping him focused on “her needs” rather than coming to understand he’s in the best position to capitalize on his SMV in his lifetime. This is actually part of the Blue Pill, feminine-correct plan for maintaining an optimal Hypergamy (or at least the impression of it) for women.

I’ve mentioned countless times on this blog that men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38 depending upon how well he’s established himself in a variety of ways that contribute to it. As Red Pill awareness grows I (hopefully) expect more men will be able to capitalize on their moment of clarity as well as use this peak moment to enjoy and choose what’s best for themselves and their futures with regards to women. When men reach this peak it is generally a point at which women are also at their most necessitous (i.e. the Epiphany Phase). This simple matter of logistics also contributes to that man’s peak SMV in the form of making his commitment a valued commodity – presuming he’s built himself into that peak in the years prior to it.

My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so threatening that it causes dread in his wife. I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife, and particularly if, up until this phase, she’s firmly dictated the Frame of their relationship since marriage.

I should add that this advice isn’t meant as some form of punishment or a big ‘get even’ with a man’s wife, but rather, a man pressing his SMV advantage at this point, to the point of instilling dread, will form a more solid attachment with his dominant Frame being the primary one – which is something his wife has likely craved for their marriage since the outset.

What YaReally (probably inadvertently) is revealing here is that women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction.

Feminine-primary social conventions build this into a man’s Blue Pill conditioning so he believes that a marriage “always requires a lot of work” before and after he’s been married. This is why Athol’s Blue Pill advice of not overdoing the Alpha is so in error; it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.

Pop culture likes to call this effect “wife goggles”, but that’s a euphemism for how feminine-primary social conventions have conditioned men to feel a need to pander to their wife’s insecurity. In doing so they self-defeat any positive effect that this natural dread would benefit him and his relationship with his wife. If a man makes a conscious choice to limit himself in the phase of his life where he can best capitalize on his peak SMV this lifts the burden of a woman being the focus of him having to do so to make her feel secure.

And all of this has been about married men; feminine-primary social conventions have a whole set of social dictates intended to get a single man in this phase of life to willfully limit his own options. This is why we get shaming tactics and presumptions of ego-centrism for men in this demographic. This is why they’re called commit-o-phobes; because the hope is that these men will feel some measure of inappropriateness about their natural sexual impulses and choose an older women as a choice of mate. A woman who, again, is at her most necessitous and insecure about her future in the SMP or her long term prospectives.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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walawala
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walawala
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The whole dynamic is why my Natural alpha friend is able to bang older reasonably ok women while for me to target younger women under 30 is more high-risk, but higher reward. Older women will throw themselves at him and I wince on learning who they are when he points them out. But for them it’s a kind of last hurrah, they get a fun, confident guy who doesn’t really give a shit, he gets….a bang. Game is critical not just to bang but to have better relationships and target women you truly want not just what you can get… Read more »

rotepilleblog
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So are u gonna leave ur wife for younger, hotter, tighter at some point, Rollo?

kobayashii1681
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“Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. ”

This is the megaton nuclear explosion that guys women everytime they step out of their homes. Nature is not your friend.
Tho always says their solipsistic hamster in in rampage.

kobayashii1681
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*on a rampage….

So to assuage the hamster and sooth the dissonance the blame is placed on men, who (chose not to) don’t date their 30+ female age mates…

The harpy cries of unfairness are heard all over the world, in all forms of media…

It’s a good run to be a (RP) man!!!

SFC Ton
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SFC Ton
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I call bullshit on

I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone

And

I don’t have anything against younger women

kobayashii1681
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Truth….

Just Saying
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EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD. You want to know why? Because they can… At 31 you over played your hand, it is that simple. Now, I’m an extreme, mostly because I have my own band, but at 55, I’m still enjoying those 18-24 year olds – mostly because I can. At some point I may want to start a family, but that won’t be in the US. American women over value themselves and I have no intention of handing over everything I’ve worked for to some crazy woman. No thanks – when I want to start… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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so, where are all the 21yr olds?

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Rollo – More brilliance. Now back to work on my value…

redcastle600
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I tried using MMSL to fix a marriage going downhill just before he went all fem-centric but not long after he started having females as his moderators it was time for me to find another way. I also found out that my wife at the time contacted him for counseling unbeknownst to me at the time. It soon dawned on me based on conversations with the wife that Athol forwarded all private messages between myself and someone I considered a mentor helping me. Needless to say she is now my ex and so is MMSL. When a female moderator “knows”… Read more »

stuffinbox
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Sounds to me as if epiphany 31 and Ya really have something in common,whining about how hard things are nowadays. What has been overlooked is that a 55 yo OMG in a 35 yr LTR w/ 58yo wife some wrinkles but no cellulite pussy Nailed down his 23yo hb8 at the age of 20,stealing her away from a 27 yo alpha,and kept her through all the bs of growing up together. I am quite sure I could do this again at 55 but the 23yo seem stupid now and Mrs box and I have alot in common. Now she could… Read more »

SJF
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Rollo: “My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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try that again…

..point out put in a plug for the manual of dread that BluePillProfessor put out on on this topic.

ChunkyMonkey
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I found this on YouTube and is bang on for this topic (it was shown on UK terrestrial television in the late nineties).

It’s a mini-series, docu-soap, that follows the lives of post wall Liverpudlian female night club goers:

ChunkyMonkey
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p.s. The 42 year old double divorcee, who has a boob job, is brilliant.

theasdgamer
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Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. The fact is, keeping a 70 yo wife attracted to her man is surprisingly difficult. By age 45, over half of couples have sex less than once a month. 28% of Americans over age 45 report they had sexual intercourse once a week or more in the last six months, and 40% report having intercourse at least once a month. That leaves 60% of people over 45 who have intercourse less than once a month.… Read more »

theasdgamer
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I got my quote from https://kinseyinstitute.org/research/publications/faq.php under “Age and sexual activity”.

theasdgamer
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There was also this gem: For women aged 50 and higher, older age is related to a decline in all sexual behaviors: 5% per year of age for penile-vaginal intercourse; 7% per year of age receiving or giving oral sex. (National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, 2010)

rugby11
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Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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This guy is excellent. Giving redpill a huge empirical backing.

http://youtu.be/x_fBYROA7Hk

He also had a longer debate with SJF types:

http://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc

One of the more lucid things I’ve seen for a while.

Divmoy
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I’m 33 and I’ve noticed lately the difference in behavior and attitude coming my way from women of various age groups. 40+ women are usually neutral or flirtatiously trying to see if they still got it. They don’t have it. Fast approaching the wall late 20’s-post wall 39yr olds often come at me with a thinly disguised hostility and bitterness. Teens to still hot late 20’s non-single mommies are a) shy intimidated eager to please, b) playful openly flirty eager to please, or if ready to settle down mature mid-late 20’s they’re sort of business-like in that they are concerned… Read more »

BC
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between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD It bears pointing out that this is exactly the “Half plus seven” age rule of thumb. Divide the man’s age in half, and add seven for the lower age limit of women that a man is likely to be able to relate to and keep in a successful relationship. 28 ÷ 2 = 14 + 7 = 21 years old 32 ÷ 2 = 16 + 7 = 23 years old These men are simply going for the best deal they think they can get and keep rather… Read more »

Pinelero
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I needed this blog 20 years ago. At that time there was no red-pill, but there was gangster rap and hip-hop, which had RP themes. The Master P’s music saved me. He had a few raps about not being a Cap’n Kirk (ie beta provider to a manipulative bitch) and being a player and not getting played. Not getting played, was basically some alpha MoFO behaviours. My wife still reminds me about our first date, when I refused to pay the whole bill for dinner. Being a player isn’t totally RP, so we discussed it at the table, but it… Read more »

Playdontpay
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@ BC

“Half plus seven rule”.

I’m 48, main Plate is 31 so right on the lower age boundary.

One question does this mean I have to dump my 46 year old Botox/silicone enhanced milf plate and my 44 year old ex fitness model plates as they are too old?

I’d say for me I’ll make my own rules as follows.

Lower age limit rule – As young as I can get as long as she’s over 18.

Upper age limit rule – strip her naked and apply “boner” test.

Simple really!

Playdontpay
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Time waits for no Ho.

Playdontpay
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Need to add that the for the upper age limit test, even if they pass the boner test..

Menopause – natures self limiting upper age limit, I just don’t like the way post menopausal women smell!

Agent P
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Heheh I fondly remember after University coming home and hooking up with a long time interest of mind. I was 27 and she was 18, from inside my close social group, she had been a student of mine. Her n count at that point was 1. The most fantastic ass imaginable atop mile long legs. An incredibly feminine and not yet fucked up beautiful young lady / girl. We went out with each other for 2 years. Holy shit did the girls in my age group ever flip their shit. “AGENT P, you are a cradle robber!”, “Well I do… Read more »

M Simon
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Well this didn’t post the first time.

This OMG (72) still occasionally has young women stalking him. The wife notices. I’ve been Red pill since about ’62.

BTW this has been going on since I turned 28 or so. On one notable occasion a lesbian (her partner was not amused) was deeply attracted in a restaurant where I was with the LTR for take out. She came up to me wanting to know why she was so attracted.

The LTR was never interested in Betas. She has often said that. So at least to some extent she knows the territory.

hank holiday
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@forge @yareally @culum @hadb @othergrain @scray @sentient @blax @PUA FR Stopped by work earlier in the day. Boss is there, and the same guy I gave advice on a month ago. Dropped some rp truths on him then, gave him some advice on text game. Anyway he’s back, and having issues with another girl. Details aren’t important…what was important was the vibe. I told them a bit later on that my boss and myself were like the little angels and devils on people’s shoulders in cartoons. My boss, she’s the angel, I’m the devil. She’s keep saying stuff about “Nah,… Read more »

M Simon
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Playdontpay
November 1, 2016 at 3:03 am

Menopause – natures self limiting upper age limit, I just don’t like the way post menopausal women smell!

I can’t say it works for all women but I have kept mine in tolerable shape by keeping her excited. She looks 10 to 20 years younger than her actual age. She still lubricates quite well. Don’t let them dry up.

M Simon
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Hank,

Your FRs are as interminable as ever. Nice to see you doing better.

And this struck me:

He smuggles weed, drops acid, and is an overall irresponsible asswipe.

Well I could tell you stories of a (well) misspent youth. There is nothing wrong with living like that. It wasn’t his habits that made him an asswipe. It probably came naturally. There are LOTs of alcohol only asswipes.

parisi91
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@Rollo “Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy” This is BS, all of this puts guys on the Provider track. Some Older guys are able to attract the younger hotties because they learned the ropes in their 20s not because they went to Yale and got jacked (which are things you are supposed to do as a man; strive for the best). But that isn’t necessary to attract them, but it can increase you options by expanding your circles… Read more »

M Simon
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palmasailor
November 1, 2016 at 4:33 am

I’m American. I’m NOT with HER. I’m expecting another Brexit. I think you will do well. Especially if “everyone” is on the other side. The payout should be good.

hank holiday
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@M Simon

Hank,

Your FRs are as interminable as ever. Nice to see you doing better.

Well I made this one all spiffy like…spent more time editing it so its less like I just vomited it up on my computer and more like an actual novel…and a little longer than a novel as well lol.

Figured you’d like the extra editing on this one.

M Simon
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parisi91
November 1, 2016 at 4:42 am

Ya know – a girl’s ideal is an Alpha provider. The two don’t usually go together.

MikeHoncho (@mike_build)
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These comments are chock full of competitive male externalities, but I’m not surprised.

Everyone rationalizing their situation.

Luciano
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Luciano
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@M.Simon
Ya know – a girl’s ideal is an Alpha provider. The two don’t usually go together.

True, but that kind of guy is extremely rare and girls have so much abundance nowadays that you’re better off displaying Alpha traits because they literally have guys begging them to buy them stuff

trackback

[…] hits it on the head today with his post on SMV and the Aging Process.  His analysis has long indicated that Sexual Market Value (SMV) decreases with age for women.  […]

kobayashii1681
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*It’s a good time to be a (RP) man!

geraldhayne
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Rollo, thank you. Your posts, your books, your analysis, all of them resonate strongly with me. This one, including the married man area, feel so true and for those of us who missed our primes (35-40) and opportunities there, and remain in a marriage with a much lower SMV partner… well, the struggle is real. Lately the struggle has included her stating “You deserve better than me” to which I’m wanting to take the Alpha road and state “Yes, Yes I do” but I’m still living squarely in her frame… maybe this is my impetus to change that. Irregardless, thank… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
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DisgruntledEarthling
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@geraldhayne
“Lately the struggle has included her stating “You deserve better than me”…”

Have you read the previous article with care?

theasdgamer
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@Mike

These comments are chock full of competitive male externalities

I’ll be sure to cross-dress for you so that you can say, “You goooo, GIRL!”

myrealitie
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I agree that dread is important in marriage, even though it makes the woman uncomfortable. My husband never ever panders to me, it’s just not his nature, and I know deep down if he did I would lose respect even though sometimes I feel “dread” which is not the most pleasant feeling in the world. I want to add though that I disagree with the SMV of men being 34-38. In my opinion it’s actually a bit younger, 29-33 let’s say is prime for men. Women who are under 23 want a “cool” factor in their men, not just men… Read more »

Megawit
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Enjoyed the article as ever, Rollo, but as someone who interprets your writing from a scientific / evolutionary POV I still feel you slightly underplay the importance of pure looks, the ‘animal magnetism’ card, if you will. Some men just HAVE this. Game, age & resource-related SMV increases etc. can only compensate for so much. Women will naturally be drawn to the top 15~20% of men looks wise (e.g. shoulder to hip ratio, test. & GH influence in facial bone structure – evolutionarily VERY important in attracting women), irrespective of age, within the pool of 20–38yr old men. Oh yes,… Read more »

Major Styles
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“I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone…”

Typical nonsense comment from a Western “educated” woman. Too busy with her Women’s Studies Degree to be concerned with trivial items like a husband and children.

kfg
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@Megawit: It is not a drum he beats in every post, but much of your objection is dealt with in the way Rollo makes a distinction between attraction and desire. Looks generate motivated prospects, but they don’t close the sale. That said, those top men are still playing in a somewhat different league, as their job isn’t so much to generate the sale as it is to not fuck it up. They have to be good at handling shit tests right off the bat, as the prospect will be getting right down to finding out if the product is as… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Not Born This Morning
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Ha!

“I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone,….”

Typo!

Correction: “I am 31 years old, and looking for anyone,…”

kfg
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@Major Styles:

The claim is a prophylactic defense against a valid charge she knows in advance will be levied against her.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. She is dissembling. I don’t accuse her of lying because she is trying to make herself believe it as much as she is her audience, but it is still, at heart, a fabrication.

EhIntellect
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@walawala Classic! Perfect Dissonance Give her 2/3 texts she sends, be a mystery, chill throughout relationship high and lows, always say less than necessary, dread… BTW: Kudos to the earlier asystolic relationship analogy. Let the mayhem ensue, and guess what? She’s in to us more. You’d think game would be intuitive, easily implemented, since it requires men to be imperfect. We must walk away when we want to, give less commitment to more girls, spin plates i.e. give less to more women, do less than you’d think necessary. Be the asshole lazy bf. And…as the women age, they become more… Read more »

SJB
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@Rollo: . . . women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction. This seems to run counter to observed female attraction to bad boys. I.e. the bad boy boffs the HB8+ with little or no effort and keeps her as a FB with little or no effort. SMV might play into initial… Read more »

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When I look at my female peers who are also are 30 like I am, alI I see is baby-rabies. Those women don’t look even at me to be honest, because I look five years younger. And I’m not interested in them either btw. I’m 30 dating a 23 y.o. Younger, hotter and above all: easy going. I don’t want to look at credenza’s at IKEA and talk about babies like 30 y.o women want to. Dating 30 y.o is something I might do in about… 7 years. It’s probably how nature intended it to be

kfg
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The future:

sfer
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If there were equal numbers of women and men, men and women on average would be in a heterosexual relationship for the same amount of time. so it all averages out.

That women is probably living in NYC or some place where the ratio favors men.

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it This is my stepfather. My mother’s psychologically abusive nature has never changed, but when I stopped allowing myself to be the target she needed a new target. Enter my Beta stepfather who put a stupid grin on his face and bobbleheaded dutifully as my mother told me he was a Beta right in front of him. Then she wonders why I don’t want him helping me with buying a new suit or advice on… well anything other than his professional speciality of investment. I look at… Read more »

key
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re ‘wife goggles’

one real manifestation is far-sightedness at age 40+ (reading glasses)

puts that Old Married Chick in perpetual soft focus

blindness = lower standards

ftw?

Opus
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There is Rollo, I believe a mistake in the fifth sentence of the paragraph beginning with the expression Pop Psychology: your write ‘sexually active’ but, if I am right, you meant to write ‘sexually attractive” – the spell checker will not of course pick up the missing attr.

Recovering from oneitis
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“Wife goggles” do exist. I have them because I love my wife of 19 years. When I look at her, I think “she’s a solid 8, maybe a 9.” But I know that this perception is overstated by my feelings for her. How am I sure? Because when I look at her in the mirror, or if I use photo editing software to flip her face symmetrically in a picture, I see a woman who is a 5, maybe a 6. I challenge all married men to try this. Take a picture of your wife and flip it symmetrically (so… Read more »

Novaseeker
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Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them. Yep, which is why the Cougar thing, despite all of the FI cultural cheerleading, is at its base totally unimpressive — since when has it… Read more »

MikePhil
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Sheesus, this article is so dead-on. Whether they’re aware of the Wall or not, it comes for all women. And the shaming of men to wife them up is designed to be an air bag, to lessen the impact of hitting the wall. Not how I want to spend my time… I’ve had a former FWB mention that to me. Last we spoke, she was going out to the bars, and she said,”It isn’t what it used to be, 5 years ago.” While still attractive, she’s seeing the men she’s interested in leaving with women 5-10 years younger than her.… Read more »

Carl
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The soundtrack to this post:

EhIntellect
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@ novaseeker

Ann Bancroft was banging Hoffman to keep him away from her daughter. When that failed she attempted to expose the affair to the daughter. Mom considered Hoffman not good enough. he was banging her willingly.

The whole “I studied art” scene exposed this canard.

kfg
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The last seconds are critical:

Novaseeker
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constrainedlocus
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Great piece Rollo. Thank you. I often chuckle about this with friends – and I’m not saying anything many OMGs and YSGs haven’t learned already on their own probably – but simply getting your ass to the gym to lift weights hard 4 to 5 times a week as a new priority of your time and schedule, and then later going out to buy a new set of dress pants, dress shoes and dress shirts for work, and perhaps a dress jacket yields some very interesting female behavioral responses, whether she is your girlfriend or your wife. Just my observation.… Read more »

EhIntellect
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@ novaseeker Just finished launch failure article. My favorite solipistic line: “These days, I am a stable adult professional—a practicing attorney, capable of common sense—but I still know how to live life on the edge.” God almighty, is she insufferable. No wonder no dude can commit. What a heap of mental jiu-jitsu. Now at 41 she vaingloriously promotes her “common sense”? F@#k, I expect that out of my 9 year old! Life on the edge. My ass. All she did was lie there for ~30 years getting banged. Some accomplishment for a pretty girl to get banged. Now she’s only… Read more »

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@Forge@Sun Indeed the chip-on-shoulder of protecting Candanavian exceptionalism from being tainted by the South is ever present. Feeling the need to repeatedly pause to qualify as not being related to The States must be tedious. I do wonder if the self-congratulatory posturing will wane once the rewards from a Pyrrhic victory in the race to the bottom come due. Aside from that, the one thing that was repeatedly made clear is that the only argument – and I’m being generous framing it as such, the gender-benders seem capable of formulating is that “my (or by proxy) feelings matter more than… Read more »

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@constrainedlocus

Word, brother. Less is more.

It helped as a youth and now to have a preternatural disgust for all things non-sexually feminine.

kfg
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A younger, hotter woman who is not as attractive as Wurtzel was at the same age chimes in:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a12475/elizabeth-wurtzel-anti-aging/

Note that the article features a picture of Wurtzel, who claims to look much younger than her actual 45 years, in which she looks like a 75 year old trying to look 55.

scray
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@theasd There was a site at Kinsey that showed the frequency of marital sex by age, but I can no longer find it. As I recall from that site, couples have dead bedrooms by age 70 except for a tiny fraction (< 1%). So, low SMV is irrelevant to a woman's attraction to men. A low SMV woman doesn't want to fuck an unattractive man, unsurprisingly. I'm sure that health issues enter into the equation as well. welp, that seems to be because no man wants to fuck a 70 y/o woman, if the data about what men find attractive… Read more »

Razorwire
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@Divmoy “Fast approaching the wall late 20’s-post wall 39yr olds often come at me with a thinly disguised hostility and bitterness” +1 Generations of young women have been indoctrinated to apply only the most blunt of tools to problems created by that very same indoctrination. The dissonance becomes intolerable. What we are observing in these women is the innate looking for a way to express. All within an environment that suppresses the beauty and necessity of their unique biological purposing, while at the same time plying that same biology with sweet nectar. Nectar that should be rare, and earned. While… Read more »

thedeti
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“since when has it been difficult for the more physically attractive women between 38 and 50 to sleep with much younger men on an NSA basis?” Yes. The only difference I’m noticing now vis a vis, say, 20 years ago, is that there appear (at least to me) to be more and more physically attractive women in that age group. Women are taking better care of themselves now, or more of them are. Plus, men’s thirst is at an all time high, so an attractive 45 year old woman can still pull a 30 something guy for relationships (maybe) and… Read more »

Sentient
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Nova Yep, which is why the Cougar thing, despite all of the FI cultural cheerleading, is at its base totally unimpressive — since when has it been difficult for the more physically attractive women between 38 and 50 to sleep with much younger men on an NSA basis? I once destroyed a very full of herself 37YO who was boasting to me about how she “bangs” 28YO guys with “well that like me saying i bang 60 year olds”… Of course I slept with her an hour or so later that night, after ripping off her panties. So who taught… Read more »

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“Note that the article features a picture of Wurtzel, who claims to look much younger than her actual 45 years, in which she looks like a 75 year old trying to look 55.”

Good God. Wurtzel is actually 49. But, yeah.

Sentient
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Scray The observation that they’re harder to bed is seriously incomplete. Blackdragon’s observation about fucking >33YO’s is based on the comparison of using the same metrics used to bang under <33YO's… which is completely in line with So you’ll have more dates and shit with older women, but outside that small % who will just 0-4 hour fuck you, you’ll have to work harder. For young women, you won’t get many ‘dates,’ but whoever you get will be in that 0-4 hour demo. and of lane changing and epiphany girls screening for BB…. Mo harder, mo work… Unless…. M Simon… Read more »

Sentient
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Agent P – on MMSL… watch out, you will be banned soon. Lots of us have been… LOL

kfg
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“Wurtzel is actually 49.”

Ah well. I guess time flies when you haven’t even been paying enough attention to think, “Liz who?”

thedeti
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“a girl’s ideal is an Alpha provider. The two don’t usually go together.”

This is THE fundamental problem women have – how to get their AF and BB together, at the same time, in the same man. That’s women’s cross to bear. And it is a real problem for them. Most of the time, women end up compromising a lot on sexual attraction if they want to get married/be in a LTR.

scray
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“a girl’s ideal is an Alpha provider. The two don’t usually go together.”

They don’t ever go together.

The whole sexual strategy of ‘alpha’ is premised around not providing lol.

it’s cool tho.

men have unicorns too….the super virginal slutty horny devil beast etc.

anon
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http://cos.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/14/25/53a097df46f80_-_cos-01-elizabeth-wurtzel-de.jpg

“I’m in my forties, I’m a nasty woman, and I endorse Hillary!”
(vote Trump)

Now, that’s persuasion.

sfer
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Wurtzel is charismatic and lands on her feet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/style/elizabeth-wurtzel-finds-someone-to-love-her.html?_r=0

concentrating on how bad life is for women over age x is kind of bitter. not that they have it so great, but who really cares. you do what you want; they do what they want.

scribblerg
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As a 54yo man, the SMV concept is so intriguing to me wrt how I might optimally play mine and their’s to my advantage. Not too long ago a young woman speculated that I was 38. I have a very young face – got proofed in the bars until I was about 30 pretty regularly before that was SOP at every bar. I also have been getting the grey blending done to my hair to reduce my grey hair which is mostly salt and little pepper naturally. It takes 10 years off of me and is not detectable. People I… Read more »

EhIntellect
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@ thedeti “…there appear (at least to me) to be more and more physically attractive women in that age group.” Female obesity and attendant comorbidities is a significant cause of 30+ y.o. female surgery. It was rare to admit 250# woman 20 years ago. It’s every day now. Cholecystecomy is directly related to being female and fat and is in the top 6 of performed surgeries nationwide. We have million-dollar bariatric departments providing wildly expensive snake oil procedures to tend to self-willed obesity. Theses procedures are fraught with risks not sane person would consider; all the candidates are over 30.… Read more »

Novaseeker
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Yeah, Wurtzel aged horribly. Lots of drugs and booze will do that to you, though. When she was high as a kite in her 20s, and writing books about it, she was attractive — not as attractive as her touched up glamour shots suggest, but she was attractive when dolled up. Went downhill fast. The one thing I do like about that piece, despite how insufferable she clearly is (she’s always been that way) is that she’s actually honest about hitting the wall and how it sucks and how irritated she is by it — instead of the usual papering… Read more »

scray
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@all re: SMV over time this is just an average tho. liiiiiike, just because you are 35 and a male doesn’t mean your SMV is peaking. you need to have busted a move in your 20’s and done correct shit. in fact, getting married often means sidelining your big dreams and aspirations to ensure that you never fully realize your SMV potential. instead, you’ll just remain at whatever level you were when you got married, or probably less so (get fatter, get schlubby, needy, no big promotion, etc.) I see schlubby married dudes all the time talking about how they’re… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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comment image

Sentient
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Scray

The whole sexual strategy of ‘alpha’ is premised around not providing lol.

Wrong… unless you aren’t ejaculating maybe?

EhIntellect
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@ novaseeker

Back to the superzip idea, our culture pulling apart. Want to find a hottie 40-something? Best search based on zip code.

scray
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@sentient

yes, because that’s what people mean in the manosphere and evo-psych by providing….ejaculating.

godspeed on the mission to define everything under the sun as alpha tho.

Elite Manhood
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Gender is Binary with exceptions. Doesn’t mean fluidity doesn’t exist but it’s at the edges and a minority. SJWs kill me with their logic a lot of times

kfg
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“Women are not better looking than 20, let alone in the 50-60 years ago, most of this is obesity.”

Selection bias.

There are more fit women, who are themselves fitter, than there were 50 years ago, and there is an obesity epidemic.

The population is splitting into two distinct demographics, with little to no spectrum (childhood obesity is now circa 20%) between them.

What you see depends on where you are.

ER docs see quads, snow blowers and bandsaws from a different perspective than the general populace, so tend to view them more negatively.

Sentient
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Prime Directive Scray… The idea I enjoyed the most in this article is that as a woman’s SMV declines, she’s going to feel dread more naturally if she’s with a man who is still high value. In a way, the more you try and win her over and cater to her, the more you are demonstrating low value as her SMV declines. It seems that in fact, a man should be less accommodating and attentive as she ages to not signal lower value. So interesting. Scribblerg… glad you are feeling better. it is an interesting post – on many levels…… Read more »

scray
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@sentient

was don’t ever get married because your aging, inexorably lowering SMV wife is going to divorce rape your ass and take up with her numerously available orbiters…

Now we are learning no wait… it’s not about her… it’s about how the man interacts with her… well now!

omg u sillies.

during ages 25-40 the divorce rape threat looms.

after she can’t have kids anymore and is post-menopausal, we just say — who gives a shit, have fun with your sexually unattractive (according to the SMP) “prize.” (who can still divorce rape you, altho her options are much less if you made it that far)

Novaseeker
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There are more fit women, who are themselves fitter, than there were 50 years ago, and there is an obesity epidemic.

The population is splitting into two distinct demographics, with little to no spectrum

Exactly. One of the demographics is much more numerous than the other, of course, but if you’re in certain places like the superzips and so on it can be flipped.

scribblerg
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@Sentient – It’s a given that alpha selection is about best genetics, hence the ejaculation bit is implied. Beta selection is about material provision and that’s what we mean by “providing”.

Just a hint – you are getting into dickhead territory again. Perhaps you might explicate a bit more without the snark cuz I think maybe you were trying to get something deeper.

@Scray and Sentient – Is alpha really axiomatically exclusive of material provisioning? Like if you provision, you cannot be alpha?

EhIntellect
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Sure. Selection bias re: trauma. I do see more tablesaw vs. hand injuries than the average Joe.

Obesity rates empirically understood and by the strict per capita numbers are up. Way up.

True, the demographics are splitting, low class and middle class (soon to be low class) and the top 20%. Obesity is a middle, low class issue more than upper class.

I guess if I hang out at peak gym times in Miami and game there I’d have selection bias too, albeit in reverse. But how many scenarios nationwide contain that financial and physical demographic?

Great talking.

Sentient
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Scribblerg

Let’s not get all MMSL forums now…

Is alpha really axiomatically exclusive of material provisioning? Like if you provision, you cannot be alpha?

It is all about your frame and motives… and actually having the means to “provision” using Scray’s definition…

Are you in scarcity or abundance? Are you trying to get something? Are you trying to hide something?

Höllenhund
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“since when has it been difficult for the more physically attractive women between 38 and 50 to sleep with much younger men on an NSA basis?” Yes. The only difference I’m noticing now vis a vis, say, 20 years ago, is that there appear (at least to me) to be more and more physically attractive women in that age group. Women are taking better care of themselves now, or more of them are. Do you happen to live in some relatively safe and neat, mostly white and/or Asian, middle-class and/or upper-class neighborhood, by any chance? In that case, it all… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Sentien – Let’s not turn it back into an asshole festival either – it’s zero value except to your ego…

kfg
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“Gender is Binary with exceptions.” Sex is binary with exceptional defects. Gender is tripart, masculine, feminine and neuter. In the early 20th century the word “sex” shifted in meaning to include “fuck,” and people under the influence of Victorian pseudo-prudishness began to be uncomfortable with the word. Some people started using “gender” as a self-aware mocking euphemism of that phenomenon. In the 60’s radical academic feminists adopted the term “gender” specifically because it did not mean sex. Their aim was to detach ideas about sexuality from sex. Thus a person of the female sex could be claimed to be of… Read more »

Elite Manhood
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Only aspect I disagree with is overt vs covert dread and really how you view communication between the sexes.

Matching your words with your actions is what makes you a man. When either is off you aren’t congruent and women see it as weak.

Saying for example you can get younger women to your older wife without demonstrating it is just as bad as cheating with her with a younger woman without verbally communicating your intentions. A mans words has to always be backed up with his actions. Always.

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