SMV and the Aging Process

aging_process

A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:

I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD.

I just don’t get it. There are plenty of women closer to their ages and single, but yet they all go for the young women. I feel kind of sad for women entering the dating market, at least where I’m from because it seems women my age have no hope in competing with these younger, perkier women.

Just a rant I suppose. I don’t have anything against younger women of course, but I can’t help but feel a bit unnerved by the trend I see here.

This is an overt observation of what women understand from a very early age – women’s sexual marketability declines with age, while men’s (should) increases as they age. This woman’s concerns should come as no shock to any Red Pill aware man. It’s the clarion call of a woman who’s aging out of the SMP and on the tail end of her Epiphany Phase.

All women have conditions (prerequisites) for men in order for them to become intimate (sexual) with them; he’s got to be good looking, he’s got to be financially stable (surplus resources), he’s got to have some status, respectability, ambition, be confident, he has to be the initiator, he’s has to be decisive, he has to make an emotional connection with her, he’s got have ‘provider’ potential,..etc., etc. And the list goes on and on for any individual woman and according to her ability (i.e. looks) to demand each condition. Each of these personal conditions for intimacy is set in a priority order depending on her ability to demand them and this demand is mediated by her age relative to her attractiveness to men.

It’s no secret that a woman’s sexual marketability declines as she ages and men’s increases as he ages. As a woman ages she progressively loses her ability to physically attract a mate (his one condition for intimacy), thus her conditions and their priority order shift accordingly because she is forced to compete with younger, more attractive women for the same pool of eligible men.

These men tend to be the ones best able to provide for her long term security and any resulting offspring. Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy, in their existing priority order, the more suitable he becomes for that intimacy and the harder she will compete with other women to achieve his long term commitment.

Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. While pre-menopausal women do in fact experience a spike in their testosterone levels and a resulting sex drive increase prior to the last of their eggs dropping, it is women between the ages of 18 and 26 that are in fact in their prime fertility stages. Women’s bodies in this age range are far better prepared for the rigors of pregnancy. At no other phase in her life is she more sexually active and most capable of commanding the attentions of the best male meeting her conditional criteria and in their most strict order. However these conditions are still mediated by her physical attractiveness – thus, if she’s fat her conditions (and their priority) will be adjusted accordingly – but she is nonetheless at her personal prime in this phase.

Unsurprisingly we see in most cultures older males striving for the attentions of the younger and more attractive females, but in western culture he becomes vilified and shamed for this – or at least that’s what western feminized women would like to be the case. The most common complaint women in their mid-thirties bemoan is that “There’s no good men” or they can’t understand why men just can’t “grow up” and find them more attractive than the young women they used to be themselves.

Increasingly, ‘careerist women’ desiring to finally start a family at age 35 find that men – particularly the ones that meet their conditions – in their age range (33-38) are not interested in women (to say nothing of ‘careerist women’) of their own age range. They’re interested in the 22 year olds who wouldn’t give them the time of day when they didn’t have the status (or maturity) that they’ve just discovered they now have. And of course the 35 year old career woman was one of these 22 year old girls, only 13 years prior, who was doing precisely the same thing the 22 year old girls are doing today.

But that doesn’t stop 30 something women from complaining about how men their age are ‘infantile’ for wanting to breed with ‘little girls’, rather than mature, intelligent, respectable career women such as themselves. They are incapable of conceiving why men ‘wont live up to their responsibilities’ and commit to a lifetime with them. They write article after article about how men are in fact threatened by their ‘successfulness’ or their ‘status’, when the simple fact remains that his breeding choices are dictated by one single condition – she’s got to be hot. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. The mid-thirties woman is (with a few notable exceptions) simply not as attractive as younger women.

So as an unspoken reaction to this predicament we get to see the popularity of the idea that “You can be 40 and still ‘have it'” among women. “Those men and their fragile egos just don’t know what they’re missing. How dare they be aroused by, and date younger more attractive women, we’ll show them”, they’d have them believe and pander to this dynamic while encouraging the fallacy that ‘men ought to be ashamed of their sexual impulse.

And finally we encounter the 40+ woman looking for what she couldn’t get in her 30s. Her priorities and conditions for intimacy have been altered radically now. At 40, the career woman has abandoned the idea of long term commitment; she may make up some sort of internalized blame for men not accepting her, but the truth comes that time has or is running out.

Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them.

They’re virile, young, dumb and full of cum. That’ll show those immature older men who don’t know how to commit! She’ll beat ’em at their own game. “Look at what I’ve got! A hot guy (relative, actually) who knows how to pleasure an older woman”; again shaming and insinuating older men’s sexual performance isn’t up to ‘women’s standards’. All conditions for intimacy and the priority orders she had before are out the window with the exception of physical attractiveness now, which, interestingly enough, has been a man’s only condition since he hit puberty. She’s come full circle, only now she makes an effort to enhance her appearance in the gym, with plastic surgery, Botox, breast augmentation, anything that will increase the attraction for young guys.

And of course the young guys are all too happy to ‘fill that hole’ (pun intended) since the effort required to get after it with the 40+ is practically nil and the rejection ratio is far lower. In addition most 22 year old guys know an LTR is more or less out of the question; they may be a booty call for her, but that’s an ideal situation for him, sex on demand with no expectation of any form of security for her. They like to make up reasonings like “she’s more experienced in bed” or “we’re both in our sexual primes”, but this just serves to justify him being a booty call, as if he’d have a problem with that.

The real irony of the whole situation is that 40+ woman is now doing exactly what she mercilessly criticized these ‘immature’, problematic 30-40 something men for doing. However, we don’t see any articles telling women to grow up, or to do the right thing or how infantile they are for sexually desiring younger men. On the contrary, they’re applauded for ‘bucking the system’ and embracing their sexual natures (as if they were formerly repressed) and “You go girl!” using isolated celebrity examples like Demi Moore fucking Ashton Kutcher as a role model.

The SMP After Marriage

For a long while I’ve been content to let bloggers like Athol Kay address sexual dynamics post-marriage (or LTR). I don’t think it’s any real secret that Married Man Sex Life has been more than compromised by a feminine-correct influence and the discussion is now directed by women’s imperatives there. This has been the forum’s state for some time now. So as such, I feel it’s kind of incumbent upon me to open myself up to addressing Red Pill issues within marriage (or LTRs) for the foreseeable future. This is just an avenue I’ll be opening up here, not a particular focus, don’t worry.

The following was a comment from YaReally in last week’s thread. I thought this more or less summed up the disconnect he believes exists between Old Married Guys (OMGs) and Young Single Guys (YSGs) who both have enough Red Pill awareness to want to employ it in their marriages as well as the plates they’re spinning as a PUA:

Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we’re happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that’s awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives’ pics in the “post your idea of a 10” threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it’s simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.

This is an interesting paradox for OMGs, but I think it’s also not accounting for how sexual priorities and Frame shifts as a couple matures. The most glaring shift is of course maturing men’s SMV comparative to their wives’ will almost always be an order of magnitude above that of their wives’. As I laid out in Preventive Medicine, at this stage of maturity the task for wives becomes one of keeping that husband in the dark about his real SMV status; the concern being his sexual disinterest in her and him coming to a realization of his SMV and he leaves her for ‘younger, hotter, tighter’. Whether this is an actual threat is often inconsequential – unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it – what occurs at this phase of a woman’s maturity is either a passive form of Dread or a feeling of regret for not having better optimized Hypergamy for herself so late in life.

Most men (i.e. Blue Pill Betas) never make this connection and blunder through their peak SMV years with a wife whose late-life competition anxiety sounds like nagging most of the time, or else it’s a possessive Frame grab with the latent purpose of keeping him focused on “her needs” rather than coming to understand he’s in the best position to capitalize on his SMV in his lifetime. This is actually part of the Blue Pill, feminine-correct plan for maintaining an optimal Hypergamy (or at least the impression of it) for women.

I’ve mentioned countless times on this blog that men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38 depending upon how well he’s established himself in a variety of ways that contribute to it. As Red Pill awareness grows I (hopefully) expect more men will be able to capitalize on their moment of clarity as well as use this peak moment to enjoy and choose what’s best for themselves and their futures with regards to women. When men reach this peak it is generally a point at which women are also at their most necessitous (i.e. the Epiphany Phase). This simple matter of logistics also contributes to that man’s peak SMV in the form of making his commitment a valued commodity – presuming he’s built himself into that peak in the years prior to it.

My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so threatening that it causes dread in his wife. I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife, and particularly if, up until this phase, she’s firmly dictated the Frame of their relationship since marriage.

I should add that this advice isn’t meant as some form of punishment or a big ‘get even’ with a man’s wife, but rather, a man pressing his SMV advantage at this point, to the point of instilling dread, will form a more solid attachment with his dominant Frame being the primary one – which is something his wife has likely craved for their marriage since the outset.

What YaReally (probably inadvertently) is revealing here is that women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction.

Feminine-primary social conventions build this into a man’s Blue Pill conditioning so he believes that a marriage “always requires a lot of work” before and after he’s been married. This is why Athol’s Blue Pill advice of not overdoing the Alpha is so in error; it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.

Pop culture likes to call this effect “wife goggles”, but that’s a euphemism for how feminine-primary social conventions have conditioned men to feel a need to pander to their wife’s insecurity. In doing so they self-defeat any positive effect that this natural dread would benefit him and his relationship with his wife. If a man makes a conscious choice to limit himself in the phase of his life where he can best capitalize on his peak SMV this lifts the burden of a woman being the focus of him having to do so to make her feel secure.

And all of this has been about married men; feminine-primary social conventions have a whole set of social dictates intended to get a single man in this phase of life to willfully limit his own options. This is why we get shaming tactics and presumptions of ego-centrism for men in this demographic. This is why they’re called commit-o-phobes; because the hope is that these men will feel some measure of inappropriateness about their natural sexual impulses and choose an older women as a choice of mate. A woman who, again, is at her most necessitous and insecure about her future in the SMP or her long term prospectives.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

724 comments on “SMV and the Aging Process

  1. Othergrain

    ” she’d probably overlook (or more likely not notice) that one instance since it’s like taking a cup of water out of a pool.”

    The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving it as beta….. quack!

    The more you look at the dog logic AF/BB explanations the more it fails to explain the edges…

    Women are naturally attracted to Alpha [DPA traits] = tingles… HOWEVER this does not equate automatic Penis in Vagina…

    Game is a language… the language of female seduction… if you do not know game, a DPA guy WITH a TON of attraction will still fall short of his potential [witness missing IOI’s, failing to spot seduction cues, being too literal, missing girls throwing themselves at him etc etc], and the attracted women will move on. Mystery Method is the Rosetta Stone.

    Beta is boiled down to fear. Beta is unattractive.

    Both DPA and Beta guys can learn the language of female seduction and get a degree of sexual success… however when the fear comes out… attraction is lost. A fluent conversationalist can keep the fear hidden, until he can’t. buh bye!

    Beta Bux [in dog logic] guys have some of the DPA traits and some language skill… and they will do until too much of the fear is exposed or better options appear.

    Hypergamy is the engine that keeps testing for the fear.

  2. @Anonymous Reader

    He won’t change that. Call it “bleeding out” or whatever, it’s not negotiable.

    Then that’s a real problem – that’s a tough situation to box yourself (or whomever) in.

    If a man is too stubborn to change his attitude or situation what else can you expect of him but for him to live in the hell he’s created for himself? Let him bleed. Or let him in on RP which might help him take action.

  3. The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta. For some reason, you can’t, or won’t, separate the action from the man.

    Brad Pitt used to be so NET high value, that a few chinks in the armor are overlooked, or as Rollo was saying, Owens spergy ticks.

    “Both DPA and Beta guys can learn the language of female seduction and get a degree of sexual success… however when the fear comes out… attraction is lost. A fluent conversationalist can keep the fear hidden, until he can’t. buh bye!”

    Do you beleive fake it til you make it works? I ask because this is not the first time I’ve seen you express this “the mask will slip to show the AFC reading a script underneath” sentiment.

    It’s congruence you’re referring to, and the more you practice, the more congruent you get. Yea, there’s a learning curve. We start kids on teeball first. They don’t just walk into an MLB park and hit a home run.

    An AFC can learn the language of love and yet remain an AFC. But helicopter him into a foreign country (the field) where he is forced to use that language (try to have sex with women) and lo and behold! He’s less of an AFC. Each success brings him closer to your DPA ideal.

    Is it a chicken and egg thing? We’re saying actions first, you’re saying mindset first?

  4. @Rollo
    “Ya, I get that you stress practice makes possible, but what Scray was arguing is that mindset has no effect on converting a Beta perceived behavior to an Alpha perceived behavior.”

    It’s not that it’s CHANGED, it’s just that it doesn’t matter. Like, girls won’t ever think Tyler being spergy is alpha, they just won’t hold it against him. And because they won’t hold it against him, they’ll feel attraction for him. And when they feel attraction for him, his sperginess will matter even less.

    That girl doesn’t come away from Tyler going “I sure wish OTHER guys had this weird sperg vibe, that’s so alpha” lol

    “But you just said that, with lots of practice and a new mindset that results from that practice, you CAN convert a Beta perception of behavior (or some subcom handicap visual cue) into an Alpha perception as a result of that practice-created mindset.”

    You’re confusing the end result (Tyler getting the girl) with the reason for it (“because he’s alpha”). You don’t get a girl “by being alpha” so much as you get the girl by “not being beta”. Tyler’s mindsets and field experience allow him to neutralize things that would hamper other guys into not mattering to the girl, but those things are still objectively not alpha things.

    “In fact, your example of the cup and the ball training reinforces that if a guy has a self-belief of his own attractiveness and he applies this in game, what would be considered Beta can take on an Alpha appeal.”

    They just don’t take on a beta appeal. Think of it like everything starts at neutral and it can either move toward Alpha or toward Beta. Brad Pitt buying a drink isn’t “being Alpha”, just his value mindsets and giving value attitude etc make that move “not Beta”. Whereas an AFC buying a drink is “being Beta” because his value mindsets etc are all shitty and taking value.

    “Objectively, Alpha is Alpha, Beta is Beta, but if the Game becomes all about you and your mastery of it, then can Beta cues subjectively take on an Alpha appeal as a result of that mastery?”

    When she’s attracted she’ll minimize/ignore/rationalize your flaws away and/or convince herself that those flaws are actually attractive. But they’re still objectively FLAWS. As soon as she loses attraction, those flaws will be seen as the flaws they are.

    @scray @Rollo
    “buying a girl flowers and drinks and whatever else = beta.”

    Right, like OBJECTIVELY that’s a beta move. You can do it from an Alpha value-giving mindset where it won’t count AGAINST you, and if she’s attracted she may even rationalize that it’s an attractive quality because she’s in the NRE stage where EVERYTHING you do is amazing…but she’s not going to walk away and have AFC Chode Man approach her and offer to buy her a drink and go “WOW HE’S ALPHA” lol

    Does that make sense?

    Now keep in mind that this is the EXECUTION of this. The MINDSETS that we want guys to have are the delusional belief that their flaws ARE attractive, because that will help give them good subcomms. ie – if you’re insecure about your looks you won’t approach with good entitled subcomms…but if you delusionally believe your looks are SEXY, you WILL. It’s not that you’ve actually turned your looks into the new universal definition of sexy for her, it’s that she just won’t hold your looks against you, and may rationalize that she likes those things about you when you’re flipping all the other switches.

    She’ll basically categorize you in an “other” category where you’re not the same as other guys with the same looks, you’re “different” because you flipped all those other switches. Like scray isn’t a “short guy” to girls, girls will probably even complain ABOUT short guys to scray forgetting that he’s a short guy. Same with my minority buddies, where girls will complain about guys of THEIR race to them, because they literally don’t consider my buddies the same as THOSE guys because THOSE guys are unattractive and the girls see those guys’ flaws, whereas my buddies flip enough switches that those things aren’t considered flaws to the girl while she’s attracted. If she 180’s on them and loses attraction or goes War Brides or the NRE wears off etc, she’ll start to see them as the same as the other guys.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_dKkLkox2Y

    @Sentient @scray @Rollo
    “I am glad to see Yareally and Rollo and I are on the same page… Scray is still on the other side.”

    wut? I honestly can’t understand what you guys think Scray is saying lol, he’s saying the same thing I’m saying.

    Scray says “no rollo is unknowingly on my and the PUA side.”

    lol I agree. Again this is one of those situations where you guys agree with us, you just don’t understand what Scray is saying ’cause he keeps assuming you guys are gonna connect the dots to where he’s at when he pre-emptively answers your questions that you don’t realize you’re gonna ask yet lol I’m just baby-stepping through the thought process for you guys patiently so what I’m saying sounds more agreeable.

    “When you view how the arbiter views things, it will make sense… and Brad Pitt’s flowers will be Alpha as Fuck to her… Alpha Provider”

    That’s not “giving flowers” being alpha. That’s “Brad Pitt is alpha, but doing a beta behavior, but has enough value to get away with it (and she may hamster rationalize that she likes it, but only from HIM)”. You guys are jumbling cause, effect and reason all into one big lump lol You gotta dissect it past the surface level.

    Like, with your guys’ theory any high-value dude should be impossible to blow himself out because just everything he does is alpha. It would be impossible for Brad Pitt to ever get rejected or lose attraction because everything he’s doing is now alpha. That doesn’t make any sense.

    Take any alpha guy infield and have him do a bunch of needy texting and outcome dependent behavior and he’ll lose attraction. You guys seem to be implying that his texts will just become alpha and his outcome dependent behavior will just become alpha and attractive…so how could he ever lose attraction once he has it?

    Doesn’t make any sense lol There are inherently beta things that, if he does too much of them, and doesn’t have the internal mindsets etc to neutralize them from crippling his value, or doesn’t have the value to take the occasional beta hit, he will lose attraction.

    Have you guys never seen an alpha dude lose a girl before?? Is it just any guy who EVER loses attraction or doesn’t get a girl wasn’t an Alpha in your mind? Doesn’t make any sense lol

    @hank
    Will check em out today.

    “also calling a brexit for trump…he’ll come in with a surprise win”

    lol Trump will win in a landslide. Anyone who doubted him doesn’t fully grasp how universal red pill concepts are, even on a mass scale. Literally everything that’s happened has followed red pill shit (from Hillary’s solipsistic corruption, to what the public is reacting to and how, to the way her campaign is handling things, to the way Trump is handling things, to the trends in the voter demographics, to the media trends, etc literally EVERYTHING) including what’s about to happen in the next few days.

    @having a bad day @Rollo
    “they’re saying that you don’t NEED to have any particular mindset… and you can STILL get your dick wet… you just have to display the external cues that indicate that you have the ‘proper’ mindset (sexually successful mindset)… not actually have the mindset…

    = fake it til you make it… (note – if you strictly follow MM, that underlying mindset is built into the process…)”

    This. That’s why I say if you follow MM to the letter, and stuff like that 25 Points by Tyler etc, you’ll get laid. Because all girls care about is the end result they see.

    But good internals can help make up for weaknesses in your flawed externals, or neutralize the weaknesses in your flawed externals. That doesn’t make your flawed externals alpha, they just won’t be held against you as hard.

    “I think this is applicable for a lot of different experiences, but I believe what TRP does is serve as a catalyst for this mindset change, which then changes process for a man downstream.

    i don’t disagree with this… and i think what you seem to be trying to get at is correct… you can change your mindset… which CAN then lead to a change in your externals… ”

    The problem is you CAN’T *TRULY* change your mindsets without field reference experience. That’s just not how it plays out when you teach guys to get girls.

    I get the theory, like I get the feel-good “but if I just make him have a positive attitude, girls will gravitate toward him” but that’s just not how it plays out infield. If it was, we could take a guy who’s just read internal theory for 5 years about how his height doesn’t matter and put him infield and he’d be slaying pussy. But the reality is he won’t be able to execute on that and that internal mindset we programmed him with will fall apart completely infield because it’s not based on anything. It has to be based on little reference experiences infield to slowly solidify.

    That’s why half the RVF forum and Manosphere and PUA community and MRA community and MGTOWs and shit can all understand all this shit, but when I take them out infield 90% of them will chode out and do fuck and all. Because they talked a big game at the pre-game, until I put a pretty girl in front of them or made them have to approach one and then it all falls apart because they don’t regularly go out and push their comfort zones.

    A measure of how good a guy’s internals are isn’t having him game in his favorite venue wearing his lucky shirt etc. It’s taking him out of his comfort zone and seeing whether he can still feel entitled to get the girl and 90% of the time that feel-good mindset stuff that’s based on nothing if he isn’t going out and following the process, falls apart completely.

    It SHOULDN’T, theoretically, in an ideal world. But in execution that’s just what happens. AFC Scray can listen to me tell him his height doesn’t matter but he will NEVER fully believe it until he experiences little bits of success for himself and pieces together that same belief through field experience.

    Again it’s the exact same dynamics of how half of what I say people either argue with it or THINK they believe it but don’t FULLY believe it, until they go try it for themselves and go “HOLY SHIT HE WAS RIGHT”. Like even the guys who BELIEVE me when I say “laser eye-contact will cause X reaction”, and fully believe 100% that I know what I’m talking about and that must be true, don’t TRULY believe it to their core until they go infield and actually EXECUTE lasers and FEEL it and get that reference experience in their brain and then come back going “OMG IT WAS AMAZING WOW!!”

    “BUT you can do it the other way, too… change your externals to lead to a change in your internals/mindset… and in fact that’s the easier/faster/more robust way to do that… because it’s objectively measurable… AND taking action trumps ‘thinking’… BC it builds those references experiences that you need to consolidate those mindset ‘changes’, which WILL lead to a change in your internals/mindset…”

    This. This is why I recommend a period of hyperfocus for newbies at the start. Because they need to be infield gathering reference experiences. It’s the fastest way they’re going to learn. And as long as we help them channel their success into “because I’m awesome and this technique helps me display that awesomeness” instead of “I’m still garbage but this magic technique is awesome”, they’ll slowly develop internals from taking external action.

    @mersonia
    “Your old…I doubt you went into the relationship for the first few years an emotionless drone”

    If he wasn’t at some point attractive to her, he wouldn’t have been in a relationship, unless it was an arranged marriage or some kind of accidental pregnancy from a hammered one night stand. At some point he was attractive to her even if it slipped off fast. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been in a relationship TO fall off in lol

    It’s like when guys say “I got her but I didn’t use any of that Mystery Method stuff”, no you DID use MM even if it wasn’t consciously, or you wouldn’t have gotten her in the first place.

    @othergrain @Rollo
    “And buying her a drink would not appear alpha to her. She would see a very high value man doing something beta. Now a (former) Brad Pitt would have to do a heck of a lot of beta to overcome that initial, assumed high value, and she’d probably overlook (or more likely not notice) that one instance since it’s like taking a cup of water out of a pool.

    Now, Brad Pitt gets down on both knees and with all his heart begs for sex…”

    This. Like…Brad Pitt can blow himself out through beta behavior. What you guys are saying sounds like you think Brad Pitt can’t blow himself out. Him begging for sex is objectively inherently a beta behavior.

    ANY guy, however alpha he is, if he takes up enough beta behaviors, will lose attraction. How is this even debatable? I’m not trolling I legitimately don’t understand where you guys are coming from on this lol

    “The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta. For some reason, you can’t, or won’t, separate the action from the man.”

    This lol And this is the disconnect that leads to “WUT U SAID MARRIAGE IS BETA SO UR SAYING ROLLO IS BETA?!?!?! FUK OFF SCRAY U SHOULD BE BANNED FOR INSULTING ROLLO!!!” lol

    Again feel free to ask questions. This is an important subject to clarify on and a big part of why the Manosphere does a lot of James Bond LARP’ing (“BRO U GOTTA JUST POST UP AT THE BAR AND NOT RISK MAKING A WRONG MOVE OR ELSE UR A BETA IF U MAKE A BETA MOVE!!!!”) so I’m happy to clarify the nuances. Again this is stuff that sorts itself out infield easier than in a discussion lol

  5. “The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta. For some reason, you can’t, or won’t, separate the action from the man.”

    You are overlooking, for some reason, that you have just stipulated that she separates the action from the man.

    Skittles guy performed one of the most egregious beta actions there is – he gave a girl candy. The girl perceived it as the ultimate evidence that he was an alpha asshole.

  6. Othergrain

    The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta Yes. Him or it… neither register to THE ARBITER as beta, ergo the actions are not “beta”… the action is just the action. the actions are beta when they are done by the perceived BY THE ARBITER betas. The actions have less to do with it… You need to lose the dog logic PUA orthodoxy to really grasp this, because it is apples and oranges.

    Do you believe fake it til you make it works? I believe that practice can build skill and make “it” real. But faking “it” will always show weakness and ultimately fear in time. That time may be one hour or may be 20 years…

    Congruence is not authenticity. The characteristics of a cubic zirconia are congruent with those of a diamond but the actual composition and properties are vastly different… especially when you look to ultimate “value”. A CZ is not authentically a diamond. A diamond is.

    They don’t just walk into an MLB park and hit a home run. and most never hit homes runs… even pros only rarely. The “pitch” of PUA as an equalist leveling device is one of the oldest and most seductive pitches of all time… language skill can be developed to an advanced degree but not the same degree among all… and some just don’t have an ear for it. PUAHate was full of recidivist practitioners for a reason. But this is a different issue altogether.

    An AFC can learn the language of love and yet remain an AFC. Yes, you can point to any master PUA as an example, Owen Cook, Mystery, Style etc… all lost their shit over women at various times, despite their fluency.

    He’s less of an AFC. Each success brings him closer to your DPA ideal. Not necessarily… the problem of viewing PUA as an ethos versus a skill leads to this kind of misalignment… I get why “they” do it, when one has been starved for so long everything becomes about food. Once one is full other things take precedence… Maslow etc.

    Watch Mr. Cook and Julian… they are moving to this direction (beyond refreshing content for new revenue – “Social Circle Game!” lol) slowly… Other guys are further along, like James Marshall…

    In other words, pussy is not your purpose… it’s an adjunct. As a DPA guy you can be happy and not get laid… women will be attracted to you regardless… drawn into your orbit.

  7. “You are overlooking, for some reason, that you have just stipulated that she separates the action from the man.”

    No I’m not. Send my earlier post on how she’ll overlook the small beta act.

    “You are overlooking, for some reason, that you have just stipulated that she separates the action from the man.”

    Glad you mention skittles guy again, because you’re missing all the little nuances of it.

    Yea, buying her candy is a cute little beta move. But that’s not all he did. The candy was the “pull” to his beta-takeaway “push”. So it was a net alpha move.

    Like, if you don’t see how skittles guy pulled a ZFG alpha move, idk what to tell you.

  8. “What you guys are saying sounds like you think Brad Pitt can’t blow himself out.”

    That’s your mindset you’re listening to.

  9. @kfg
    “That’s your mindset you’re listening to.”

    Like I say, the internal mindset we want Brad Pitt to have is different than the objective reality of how things work. Why is this getting lost on you guys lol

    “Skittles guy performed one of the most egregious beta actions there is – he gave a girl candy. The girl perceived it as the ultimate evidence that he was an alpha asshole.”

    Then if an AFC Chode gives her skittles tomorrow, she’ll fuck him? Because giving her candy is now alpha?

    It’s not the act of giving the candy, that in itself is a beta move that will blow out AFC Chodes. It’s all the stuff AROUND that act that makes him alpha.

    Or like othergrain says: “you’re missing all the little nuances of it.”

    “Yea, buying her candy is a cute little beta move. But that’s not all he did. The candy was the “pull” to his beta-takeaway “push”. So it was a net alpha move.”

    This. An AFC Chode giving her candy will just reinforce to her that he’s a chode. The candy move works for him because he has attraction already and is already aloof enough that the candy balances it out, and the gift he’s giving is flipping expectations (he’s giving a shitty little gift instead of an expensive impressive one) which adds a bunch of other dynamics to the equation.

    It’s all the stuff around the actual act of giving her something. Otherwise we’d just tell AFCs to go buy girls candy and drinks.

    @Sentient
    Oh god where to start with THIS shit lol

    “the actions are beta when they are done by the perceived BY THE ARBITER betas.”

    Are you saying a DPA guy can never turn a girl off or get rejected or lose attraction? No matter how much he authentically, dynamically, and passionately begs for sex and fails all her shit-tests? This is why your DPA thing is dumb lol You keep trying to push your “system” that’s just an oversimplification of a bunch of internal stuff with a mystical woo-woo spin added to it.

    “The “pitch” of PUA as an equalist leveling device is one of the oldest and most seductive pitches of all time… language skill can be developed to an advanced degree but not the same degree among all… and some just don’t have an ear for it. PUAHate was full of recidivist practitioners for a reason. But this is a different issue altogether.”

    lol no, anyone is capable of executing any of this stuff. If anyone plays Beethoven’s notes exactly the way he’s laid out, that person will execute the same song Beethoven wrote down. A lot of people might NOT play all the notes right, but that has nothing to do with the “pitch” that if you play the notes you’ll get the song being wrong lol

    “all lost their shit over women at various times, despite their fluency.”

    This is such a ridiculous oversimplification of a million dynamics that played into that stuff. If you get dumped can we say DPA doesn’t work? If Rollo gets dumped can we say all his writing was bullshit? lol

    brb boxer got sucker-punched in the face in a bar, now boxing don’t real!

    The early PUA guys don’t have the same understanding of some of the stuff Rollo’s written about. They’re simply missing pieces of the puzzle. A boxer not having a right arm doesn’t mean punches with the right arm don’t work.

    “it’s an adjunct. As a DPA guy you can be happy and not get laid… women will be attracted to you regardless… drawn into your orbit.”

    Nonsense feel-good fluff that guys who are way too up their ass about internal game spout because guys who are scared to take action will go “Ya man!! If I just be an alpha male bitches will fall from the sky!!” It just gives guys an excuse to go do a bunch of other shit thinking that they’re upping their magical draw them into his orbit shit so they can avoid the field and approaching and ego-protect.

  10. @kfg

    In comes social conditioning that changes the context. So he gave her skittles (10 beta bucks points), but he also shit on social conventions (what an anniversary present should look like) and made fun of her (30 asshole points).

    If there was no social conditiong interfering about giving presents to gfs, only beta points would be left. But still hypergamy demands sprinkles of beta bucks, so it would be advised if he was uncaring asshole.

    And whether she perceives it as ultimate evidence is open to her rationalizations

  11. Yareally

    It’s not that it’s CHANGED, it’s just that it doesn’t matter. Like, girls won’t ever think Tyler being spergy is alpha, they just won’t hold it against him. And because they won’t hold it against him, they’ll feel attraction for him. And when they feel attraction for him, his sperginess will matter even less.

    yup… the Arbiter again deciding what is alpha and beta…

    You don’t get a girl “by being alpha” so much as you get the girl by “not being beta”. Tyler’s mindsets and field experience allow him to neutralize things that would hamper other guys into not mattering to the girl, but those things are still objectively not alpha things.

    Yup.. you “get the girl” by speaking the female language of seduction. “in field” is merely full immersion language course…

    They just don’t take on a beta appeal. Think of it like everything starts at neutral and it can either move toward Alpha or toward Beta. Brad Pitt buying a drink isn’t “being Alpha”, just his value mindsets and giving value attitude etc make that move “not Beta”. Whereas an AFC buying a drink is “being Beta” because his value mindsets etc are all shitty and taking value.

    Yup… it is not the actions of themselves… The beta “mindset” is one beset by fear. Starting with the fear that they are not enough…

    When she’s attracted she’ll minimize/ignore/rationalize your flaws away and/or convince herself that those flaws are actually attractive. But they’re still objectively FLAWS. As soon as she loses attraction, those flaws will be seen as the flaws they are.

    Only flaws in dog logic… they just “are’ and the issue is attraction and fluency… The Arbiter decides foot rubs are hot… from the perceived Alpha…

    Take any alpha guy infield and have him do a bunch of needy texting and outcome dependent behavior and he’ll lose attraction.

    By becoming beta to the arbiter.

    I get the theory, like I get the feel-good “but if I just make him have a positive attitude, girls will gravitate toward him”

    This is not the theory. at all.

    Because they talked a big game at the pre-game, until I put a pretty girl in front of them or made them have to approach one and then it all falls apart because they don’t regularly go out and push their comfort zones.

    This is the difference between fluency in reading vs. speaking a language [to educated native speakers].

    This is why I recommend a period of hyperfocus for newbies at the start. Because they need to be infield gathering reference experiences. It’s the fastest way they’re going to learn.

    Yes, full immersion with native speakers in conversation…

  12. Yareally

    Nonsense feel-good fluff that guys who are way too up their ass about internal game spout because guys who are scared to take action will go “Ya man!! If I just be an alpha male bitches will fall from the sky!!” It just gives guys an excuse to go do a bunch of other shit thinking that they’re upping their magical draw them into his orbit shit so they can avoid the field and approaching and ego-protect.

    This is why your commentary is increasingly worthless… You are not even trying to follow along. Completely disingenuous strawmanning…

  13. “The candy was the “pull” to his beta-takeaway “push”.”

    You are illustrating the difference between a technician and an artist by missing the nuance, because it wasn’t anything of the kind. It was a shiv.

    And for the rest of her life, any guy who gives her Skittles will be an “asshole,” because the behaviour she detached from the man will now be attached to all men. She still feels the pain of the shiv.

    It wasn’t a beta action, it was a widowmaker action, entirely because of the particular man who performed the action.

    No technician will understand this. An artist will “just get it.”

  14. “women will be attracted to you regardless”

    If this isn’t along the same lines as “get jacked, rich, wear a suit and post up at the bar chicks will come to you” idk what is…

    Not saying that’s your intention, but clearly can be interpreted to rationalize away taking action.

  15. “it was a widowmaker action”

    Like I said, net alpha…

    Call it a shiv, a widow maker, call it a fucking whalebone I don’t care…

  16. For others who are following…

    Are you saying a DPA guy can never turn a girl off or get rejected or lose attraction?

    No he can stop being DPA and that will have consequences.

    You keep trying to push your “system” that’s just an oversimplification of a bunch of internal stuff with a mystical woo-woo spin added to it.

    First not a system, but yes it is a simplification of what are the irreducible elements of “Alpha”. Not what is the longest list of possibles… What do you have?

    anyone is capable of executing any of this stuff. If anyone plays Beethoven’s notes exactly the way he’s laid out, that person will execute the same song Beethoven wrote down

    Now anyone who plays an instrument knows that this isn’t going to sound the same… anyone may theoretically be capable of executing it… THAT IS THE PITCH after all… Realizing results is different… There is one Beethoven.

    This is such a ridiculous oversimplification of a million dynamics that played into that stuff. If you get dumped can we say DPA doesn’t work?

    sounds like no answer here… If one gets dumped, one will be able to go back and see where one stopped being DPA and started to act in fear.

    The early PUA guys don’t have the same understanding of some of the stuff Rollo’s written about. They’re simply missing pieces of the puzzle.

    Which is my point… they (and many here) are STILL missing pieces of the puzzle… but they groping towards it. The fact that Owen and RSD are now turning to TRM (see their instagram posts) is evidence that they know they are missing a great deal using just the catechism of MM in all its various names…

    I am starting to feel that Wild Man Mitch is owed an apology on the whole cult thing…

  17. Othergrain

    Not saying that’s your intention, but clearly can be interpreted to rationalize away taking action.

    What do you not understand about DYNAMIC coming first in the Triad? Really how old are you guys?

  18. “Call it a shiv, a widow maker, call it a fucking whalebone I don’t care…”

    Unless I ascribe the meaning of “shiv” to “whalebone,” the victim is going to bleed out because I won’t take the appropriate action.

    ” . . . can be interpreted to rationalize away . . .”

    Perhaps the problem to be addressed is the rationalizing.

  19. @Rollo

    I’m not arguing against the idea of certain behavioral sets being interpreted as Alpha or Beta, what I’m not getting is the disconnect between isolated behaviors and the mindset that prompts them.

    i don’t think i was explicit enough on the whole [mindset –> behavior = objective reality] idea (i just implied some of this)… and since you are drafting a post about this stuff, i thought maybe i could try to clear it up a little…

    your mindset does inform your behavior… it is upstream from actions that you take… but that doesn’t have to mean that you are stuck with your same behavior patterns… or the same mindset…

    your behavior = the objective reality that other people see… this includes EVERYTHING… like your body language, NLP-type language choices, choice of topics to talk about, who you talk to… and when… literally everything…

    and girls watch this whole objective reality interaction package to assess social status (and sexual repro fitness) of the players… (YaR posted a video (i’m too lazy to find it…lol) from Good Will Hunting that showed the girls in the background watching the exchange between Damon and ‘the rich kid’ about library fees…).

    the assumption that girls (and other people) make is that your behaviors/objective reality is a window to your actual mindset… bc your mindset is UNCONSCIOUSLY displayed through your behaviors… usually…

    that’s the normal situ…

    now, when you CONSCIOUSLY manifest different behaviors/objective reality than you normally would (behaviors which are associated with an unconsciously expressed ‘alpha’ mindset) it really doesn’t matter what your ‘real’ mindset is… girls make the assumption that you are unconsciously expressing your ‘true self’… which pings as ‘alpha stud’… (note – YOUR subconscious is going to do the same thing… and over time will adopt that mindset as the ‘true you’…)

    now, you might not be able to pull that off ‘completely’ enough to get a bang… bc of ‘lack of congruence’ (with your micro expressions, or whatever…or bc you are fighting some social conditioning that says you ‘shouldn’t be able to do that’…) but initially you will be seen as alpha stud…

    that’s why WKs call pua ‘cheating’… bc it doesn’t show the ‘real you’… so you are somehow ‘tricking the girl’ into having sex with you…

    but over time, if the pua keeps ‘putting in the work’ eventually his mindset WILL change to reflect his external behaviors/objective reality that he is manifesting… (it HAS to be that way… bc ‘science’…lol)… or else his head will explode…lol…

    what happens is that the ‘newbie’ pua will likely have huge cognitive dissonance between his real mindset and his behaviors (YaR’s fat guy in-field example)… which will mess him up mentally long-term if he doesn’t resolve that… but short term, you can put on the behaviors like a costume… and follow the ‘process’ which mimics that alpha mindset… (MM specifically, but other approaches (process) work too…)

    if he keeps playing, he will pick up (lol) enough reference experiences to actually re-form his mindset to ‘be’ the alpha mindset (like Scray calls it ‘creating a new self-concept’) … and then he CAN unconsciously express his ‘true self’… as alpha stud…

    fake it til you make it…

    and that process works for everything else you are trying to change in your life, too… take ‘right action’ consistently enough… for long enough… and you WILL change who you ‘are’… (which i think is where you are going with that post idea… and why i wanted to try to clear this up…)

    i also have a couple more clarifying points…

    So, with that in mind, is it still accurate to characterize a guy’s persona as “Alpha” or “Beta” (abstract terms) if his mindset predisposes him to default to those behaviors?

    I’m beginning to see the need to separate “Alpha” in terms of mindset, from “Alpha” in terms of process and behaviors. This is one reason I’ve never really adopted Vox Day’s social hierarchy terminology, because a Gamma or a Delta by his reckoning can still fake process well enough to be perceived as having an Alpha mindset – presuming they apply themselves. Thus, I’ve always stuck to distilling things down to AF/BB.

    AF/BB is the gold standard of male sexual repro strategies… i don’t know how you could change that to make it more clear…

    the biggest issue i see, is that ‘alpha’ is seen as ‘manly/masculine/good’ and ‘beta’ is seen as ‘not that’…lol… ‘beta’ has taken on this ‘short-hand pejorative’ meaning… which even men who should know better blend into value judging, when they discuss this stuff… (and why everybody gets wound up in the comments…)

    And I’m still not convinced that Beta behavior (or maybe I should say Beta impression associated with that behavior?) can’t be converted to a net positive (Alpha) impression with the right mindset or panache applied to it.

    see?… lol…

    beta behavior isn’t ‘bad’… and it CAN’T be converted to alpha… stretch that f*ker as hard as you want… it ain’t happenin’… lol

    This is what I mean:

    You haven’t changed your looks or anything, you don’t suddenly have a 6-pack and you’re not rich, and you purposely told her your job was something dumb and unattractive like I told you to so you wouldn’t have that crutch to rely on, and you told her you like Warcraft (or whatever your passion is) [authentic…] like I said to tell her, and you saw her get attracted when you talked passionately about that subject… [passionate…] she’s not just being nice, she’s attracted to YOU, because NOW you’re properly demonstrating [dynamic…] the value that you’ve always had but just didn’t know how to express because of the socially conditioned chains around you that told you to sit down and shut up and try to be James Bond.

    this dude IS expressing ‘alpha’… dynamic, passionate, authentic… (social conditioning of ‘video gamers = losers’ notwithstanding…)

    All of these confessions leave the impression of what any woman would otherwise consider Beta disadvantages.

    there’s that value judgment… beta = loser… and girls don’t think like that…lol…

    But with the correct mindset and the correct process – applying it to Game – those Beta deficits are converted to an Alpha impression.

    what exactly?… why do you think they are ‘beta deficits’?… serious question…

    Just like Tyler’s spergy tendencies are converted to quirky and cute advantages instead of Beta deficits.

    I’m playing Devils advocate in this. I don’t subscribe to the power of positive thinking, Zig Ziglar, Gorilla Mindset marketeering, but if I’m going to challenge this in a post using Game and TRP as counterarguments I want to have my facts straight.

    positive thinking only works to get you to take positive action… it’s the positive action that makes the difference… and you can do THAT (take positive (right) action) even if you have ‘negative thinking’ running in your head… just makes it harder…

    (and the social conditioning that says that ‘you can’t DO that (take positive action) if you have negative thoughts… is just that…)

    good luck!

  20. They just don’t take on a beta appeal. Think of it like everything starts at neutral and it can either move toward Alpha or toward Beta. Brad Pitt buying a drink isn’t “being Alpha”, just his value mindsets and giving value attitude etc make that move “not Beta”. Whereas an AFC buying a drink is “being Beta” because his value mindsets etc are all shitty and taking value.

    I don’t buy this. Everything most definitely does not start from a neutral perception. Brad Pitt or Tom Brady bringing a girl flowers doesn’t begin from a neutral perception. Sentient’s arbiter theory seems sound; Alpha or Beta preconceptions in women is a factor in arousal/attraction. How much so is subjective as well: an inexperienced 18 y.o. girl will have her attraction cues socially & biologically modified much differently than those of a 31 y.o. woman looking to cash out of the SMP.

    Furthermore, the same social conditioning that predisposes a guy to a Beta self-image also weighs on women’s preconceptions of men. Like we were saying when we had the Looks debate, certain visual cues are subcoms that indicate certain expectations which are interpreted as Alpha or Beta according to social conditioning (and I’ll still argue evo-bio hindbrain). This is why the jacked guy who presents the appearance of Alpha can get blown out when this appearance is incongruous with his Beta behaviors once he opens his mouth.

    However, that guy is not starting from a neutral position with women. His Alpha or Beta status is weighted by a woman’s socialized and naturalized preconception of him before that guy behaves in any way. Those cues may be entirely inaccurate – a homeless guy wearing a borrowed Armani suit for instance – but the initial preconception weights his status to either side of neutral.

  21. “I am starting to feel that Wild Man Mitch is owed an apology on the whole cult thing…”

    I didn’t get around to writing it, but yesterday I found myself thinking:

    “One of the ways to form a cult is to take words that have a well understood meaning and change the meaning to one that only people who are in the group understand. For a bonus point, begin ascribing that meaning to people who are not in the group when they use the word and call them to task for it. Wild Mitch Man might then have some real justification for calling us a cult.”

    Radical feminists do this with calculation. “Misogyny, ” for instance.

    Bodybuilders do it by being essentially ignorant. They have had to invent the term “work capacity” because they have ascribed their own meaning to the word which means “work capacity.”

  22. But kfg, it’s the mindset that causes that rationalization 😉

    We know men will take every chance they can NOT to put their ego on the line and learn to get better with women, through immersion learning. I can see hundreds of ways Dynamic can be interpreted as, “make lots of money, climb mountains, fight a bear…” ANYthing but talk to that pretty girl.

    “What do you not understand about DYNAMIC coming first in the Triad? Really how old are you guys?”

    “As a DPA guy you can be happy and not get laid”

  23. Othergrain

    We know men will take every chance they can NOT to put their ego on the line and learn to get better with women, through immersion learning. I can see hundreds of ways Dynamic can be interpreted as, “make lots of money, climb mountains, fight a bear…” ANYthing but talk to that pretty girl.

    Yes YOU can see hundreds of ways… which is why I asked about your background and explained how a POINT OF VIEW is formed… and a common point of view of late intermediate and early advanced PUA practitioners is they are the shit, they are the dope pimps and they are the ones that get “it”… but they are the ones that still lack the experience to understand what they do not understand…

    Ferran Adria closed El Bulli because he “thought” he had done everything and new everything… and when he stepped away he realized how little he actually knew…

    Or as the noodle master answered the cocky young cook who asked how long it takes to master the art of noodle making “let’s see… a lifetime”

    You can plainly see Owen and his crew slouching their way towards a better understanding as we speak…

    Quack quack…

  24. “… and a common point of view of late intermediate and early advanced PUA practitioners is they are the shit, they are the dope pimps and they are the ones that get “it”… but they are the ones that still lack the experience to understand what they do not understand…”

    Who are the most dangerous martial artists?
    The brown belts, because they know how to kill, but don’t know how to not kill.

  25. You haven’t changed your looks or anything, you don’t suddenly have a 6-pack and you’re not rich, and you purposely told her your job was something dumb and unattractive like I told you to so you wouldn’t have that crutch to rely on, and you told her you like Warcraft (or whatever your passion is) [authentic…] like I said to tell her, and you saw her get attracted when you talked passionately about that subject… [passionate…] she’s not just being nice, she’s attracted to YOU, because NOW you’re properly demonstrating [dynamic…] the value that you’ve always had but just didn’t know how to express because of the socially conditioned chains around you that told you to sit down and shut up and try to be James Bond.

    HABD –

    this dude IS expressing ‘alpha’… dynamic, passionate, authentic… (social conditioning of ‘video gamers = losers’ notwithstanding…)

    Exactly…!!! not some woo woo shit… oh wait that is a Yareally quote you broke down… Huh?

    LOL

  26. I’ve never claimed to know everything, in fact it seems you’re the one with all the answers…DPA, platinum rule.

    Maybe I’m assuming you think “be DPA” is actionable advice, when you don’t intend it to be.

    Are we playing duck duck goose? Or just making animal sounds. What sound does a turtle make?

    https://youtu.be/MAORPWwb8Ww

  27. @Yareally

    “Like scray isn’t a “short guy” to girls, girls will probably even complain ABOUT short guys to scray forgetting that he’s a short guy. Same with my minority buddies, where girls will complain about guys of THEIR race to them, because they literally don’t consider my buddies the same as THOSE guys because THOSE guys are unattractive and the girls see those guys’ flaws, whereas my buddies flip enough switches that those things aren’t considered flaws to the girl while she’s attracted. If she 180’s on them and loses attraction or goes War Brides or the NRE wears off etc, she’ll start to see them as the same as the other guys”

    Fuckin right? I’m overweight. I’m 6′ with a lot of muscle mass but im definitely carrying too much extra. Girls complain about fat guys to me all the time, even some that are simply not fucking fat.

    This girl I was seeing a couple months ago had a fling with my buddy a while back. Hopeless guy behavior wise and he’s short.. but he’s ripped. And that fact alone does get him some infrequently. But he can never keep them for long.

    Anyway one night she and I are in bed naked chilling, and she gets a text. She’s cuddled up to my chest so I see my friends name on the screen when she opens it. And I ask her how my boy is doing. She rolls her eyes and starts blathering on. At some point I tease her “why’d y’all break up , such a great couple”

    Firstly, she clarifies that they did NOT date, then proceeds to give reasons why they broke up LOL. One of which is, and I quote: “then he stopped working out and he got really fat and you know I like muscles I just can’t see myself with a fat guy”

    This guy has a fucking six pack LOL she says this and just keeps going. The reality (that this dude was NOT fat, indeed if either of us was it was definitely me) completely escaping her. His mindset did not make him ripped, and when she lost attraction for him he suddenly became fat.

    He was ripped when they got together. After she lost the attraction, even his positive attributes were now negative. They do this all the time.

    Shit, they even look at themselves this way. Lots of thin women legitimately think they are fat. Sure, sometimes it’s fishing for a compliment or something else, but often they really do think they are. But A 110lb girl with an hourglass figure is not fat, and her mindset does not change that (though it certainly can lead to behavior that will MAKE her fat in time).

    This is why it makes no sense to say that the nature (alpha/beta) of a behavior depends on the mindset behind it. Because this is exactly what that leads to (ripped guys being fat, thin girls being fat, obese women being attractive, consensual sex being rape, and on and on), blatant contradiction and denial of reality.

    I gotta start following these comments more. Good shit, Ya

  28. Rollo: “I’m beginning to see the need to separate “Alpha” in terms of mindset, from “Alpha” in terms of process and behaviors. This is one reason I’ve never really adopted Vox Day’s social hierarchy terminology, because a Gamma or a Delta by his reckoning can still fake process well enough to be perceived as having an Alpha mindset – presuming they apply themselves. Thus, I’ve always stuck to distilling things down to AF/BB.”

    HABD: “AF/BB is the gold standard of male sexual repro strategies… i don’t know how you could change that to make it more clear…

    the biggest issue i see, is that ‘alpha’ is seen as ‘manly/masculine/good’ and ‘beta’ is seen as ‘not that’…lol… ‘beta’ has taken on this ‘short-hand pejorative’ meaning… which even men who should know better blend into value judging, when they discuss this stuff… (and why everybody gets wound up in the comments…)”

    OK. I admit it. I’m one of those men that should know better than to blend into being value judging.

    The comments section under Rollo’s Beta Game essay had some interesting contributions. This was one of them by commmenter Yohami (of course this was in 2011, and as we all know: everything has changed since then):

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/02/beta-game/#comment-91

    Betas are not the wolves in sheep clothing. The betas are the guys that circle around you friendly, taking your side, acting like a peniless girlfriend, and some day you realize they have a crush on you. There’s no “wolving” here, more like a very, very timid effort to please you so you get to know the real him, while at the same time compensating you (with attention, money, favors, whatever) for not being up to your standards.

    At least by the definition of Beta in this sphere. With this definition, there’s no middle ground, because Beta represents only the negative stuff.

    Caring, loving, being trustful, able to bond, etc, are not “Beta” traits. These are only portrayed as Beta traits when someone is shaming the Alpha archetype.

    So if what you mean is, “is it possible for a guy to be strong, dominant, assertive, be in control of his life, fun to be around, sexually active, and also be caring, generous, loving, and committed?”

    Of course. That’s called a healthy man.

  29. Othergrain

    I’ve never claimed to know everything, in fact it seems you’re the one with all the answers…DPA, platinum rule.

    I think you’ve been behaving as if you think everything you know is everything…

    What I’ve given you is more answers… take it or leave it…

    How long does it take to be a Noodle Master?

    Maybe I’m assuming you think “be DPA” is actionable advice, when you don’t intend it to be.

    The whole point of reducing Alpha down to the irreducible traits is to make it actionable… not a paralyzing yet contradictory list of behaviors…

    Go be known by your qualities on display. When confronted with the fork in the road, think about the Triad and if you are aligned with it. Follow the principles…

    See how it all plays out… in the field, which is all of life.

    quack.

  30. @Sentient:

    I tried to find a smaller one, but sometimes when the urge is pressing you take what the field presents.

  31. @kfg

    You don’t know what the cat is thinking dude. You know what that posture is. You can only imagine what it’s thinking.

    Indeed, people commonly do things they think their pet likes, but that are actually quite annoying to the animal, because they think they know what it’s thinking/how it feels/what it likes.

  32. @rollo

    lol as it stands right now, your representation of the PUA side on this whole issue (if you’re going to talk about it in this article/post) has a high, high probability of being a misrepresentation.

    you keep characterizing our side as ‘mindset is irrelevant’ or some other such nonsense. it is not.

    mindset makes executing the program easier; i.e. a program with > alpha traits than beta traits.

    but the actions themselves are either alpha or beta.

    I don’t buy this. Everything most definitely does not start from a neutral perception. Brad Pitt or Tom Brady bringing a girl flowers doesn’t begin from a neutral perception.

    yes, social conditioning has people make assumptions about you based on how you look, from the get-go. (this is why we say looks don’t matter because looks, divorced from social conditioning, don’t in and of themselves matter)

    from that impression, they form an image of where you fall on alpha/beta continuum.

    then, you can simply alter that impression by taking alpha actions, or acting with enough alpha traits to tip the balance more in favor of alpha from that initial assumption.

    it ultimately comes down to YOUR DEMONSTRATED TRAITS.

    Yup… it is not the actions of themselves… The beta “mindset” is one beset by fear. Starting with the fear that they are not enough…

    no, it is the actions.

    your whole shit about ‘buying her a drink in a forceful/non-hesitant way’ vs ‘buying her a drink in a hesitant’ way is just unknowingly missing other alpha and beta traits.

    alpha = decisive action
    beta = hesitant action

    buying a drink + without hesitation = beta trait + alpha trait
    buying a drink + with awkward hesitation = beta trait + beta trait

    the first one would leave a more OVERALL alpha impression.

    but it did not convert an alpha trait into a beta trait.

    so what does mindset do?
    where does that come in?

    welp, it’s what makes executing those alpha actions easier (or more difficult).
    so it’s relevant, but it does not make beta traits into alpha traits.

    like lol.

    the “arbiter” “DPA” stuff is just woo-woo that is impossible to nail down with any objective formulation and is vulnerable to rationalizing plainly beta (or worse) behavior as alpha. like a dude sucking a dude off in front of a chick and letting the dude blast on his face is NOT GOING TO MAKE A CHICK MORE ATTRACTED, IT IS NOT GOING TO BE PERCEIVED AS ALPHA, I don’t care if the dicksucker says ‘yeah i’m hetereo, but i TRULY BELIEVE that sucking a guy off and letting him blast on your face is the ultimate showcase of my manly ability to completely destroy another dude’s soul’

  33. @Eon56: “You don’t know what the cat is thinking dude.”

    Oh, you poor, walking dead bastard.

    “Indeed, people commonly do things they think their pet likes . . .”

    . . . because they think their pet thinks like they do.

  34. @Yareally

    “It’s not the act of giving the candy, that in itself is a beta move that will blow out AFC Chodes. It’s all the stuff AROUND that act that makes him alpha.”

    About Skittles guy, I would argue that it is INDEED the fact that giving a girl candy is beta that made this action have such a strong impact on the chicks. If he hadn’t done that, the girls would not have been able to relate, and would not have remembered him like this.

    Like Scray explained time and time again, you need a mix of Alpha and Beta actions to get girls to fall for you. The community just never insisted on the beta side (comfort, rapport etc.) since most guys are already doing this by default.

    If you only do “alpha” shit, you don’t get laid lol Or only with very horny/drunk chicks.
    You need to balance the alpha with intermittent and dose-controlled shots of beta, at least that’s how I view it. Just a glimpse of some vulnerability you have, after having DHVd through the roof = nuclear.

    Also, i’m laughing so hard at guys being butthurt at Scray “YOU SAYING THAT I’M BETA BRO”.

    This comment section is really a proof that guys are just as emotion driven as chicks.

  35. @kfg

    “Oh, you poor, walking dead bastard.”

    Lol well what’s it thinking then? Be specific now. Forget the body language, I want to know what it’s THINKING, what’s going through its mind.

    “. . . because they think their pet thinks like they do.”

    Despite consistent behavior that clearly shows that is not the case. They deny reality.

    “. . . are both performing the same gross action, but the former is beta and the latter is alpha, and the only difference between them is what they are thinking”

    Is that the only difference? Or are you guessing that they aren’t thinking the same thing based on the squint of one’s eyes? And the direction of their gaze, one being upward, the other straight ahead?

  36. @Sentient

    “it’s an adjunct. As a DPA guy you can be happy and not get laid… women will be attracted to you regardless… drawn into your orbit.”

    You might not realize it and mean no harm by it, but this is exactly the type of reasoning that keeps soooooo many guys frustrated about their sexlife. Because it is just not true !!!

    The world is full of authentic passionate guys who have their shit together, cut wood and climb Mount Everest. And they don’t get laid, without knowing why, because everyone parrots the sentence above. “Don’t worry, the girls will come, keep doing what you are doing etc.”

    No, guys need to know that in order to have a satisfying love and sex life, they need to get good with girls.
    And to get good with girls they need to practice getting good with girls, it’s an ACTIVE process.

    I feel very strongly about this topic because I know so many cool guys who fit your recommendations to a T, and who are stuck in shitty relationships with subpar chicks, enduring year-long dry spell etc. because they are waiting for “girls to be drawn into their orbit”

    The world would be such a better place if guys considered their love/sex life like golf : you can only get better results by practicing.

    Now if only there was a step-by-step method that taught you how to talk to chicks, encompassing both the external aspects and the internal mindsets…

  37. “About Skittles guy, I would argue that it is INDEED the fact that giving a girl candy is beta that made this action have such a strong impact on the chicks.”

    The signal is getting stronger.

    “Like Scray explained time and time again, you need a mix of Alpha and Beta actions to get girls to fall for you.”

    Oh, now it’s getting weaker again.

    The girl didn’t bring up the Skittles to do a “You don’t know him like I know him,” as a pull would.

    She brought up the Skittles to add the final emphasis to what an asshole he was. Proof that he was an Alpha Cad.

    It wasn’t “comfort.” It wasn’t “negotiation of desire.” It was an insult.

    I say, I say, I say; don’t you know an insult, Son?

  38. @kfg

    “She brought up the Skittles to add the final emphasis to what an asshole he was. Proof that he was an Alpha Cad.

    It wasn’t “comfort.” It wasn’t “negotiation of desire.” It was an insult.

    I say, I say, I say; don’t you know an insult, Son?”

    This was after the fact.

    When he handed her that bag of skittles, you can bet your ass she was just so shocked that he somehow knew skittles were her FAVORITE CANDY EVER!!

  39. Klem

    Serious question. Can you read and comprehend without first interjecting your own thoughts?

    having your shit together, chopping wood or climbing Everest are not by themselves DPA… It is a Triad for a reason.

    And reduced to avoid exactly the kinds of actions you ascribe to being Alpha…

  40. Oh and Golf… Actually I was thinking about this recently… No matter how much you practice nearly all guys plateue not scoring par. Do you know what that is called?

    a handicap.

    Have fun on the driving range then holing out an 87… Again. Maybe Ludwig can caddie for you?

  41. I beleive I may have the wrong story in mind as Skittles Guy…and a quick search only brings up what i assume you’re referring to, kfg.

    I was thinking it was:

    Early on in the “courtship”, guy goes “I’ve been thinking a lot and I think you’re really special. I wanted to get you a little something to show you how I feel.”

    Bring out jewelry box, she starts thinking “oh god, what a pathetic bitch this is only our 3rd date!”

    Open it up and it’s skittles inside. Beta takeaway, you get the “asshole!” Punch on the arm.

    So my mistake if we’re talking two different stories. Only thing I can find supports yours,

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/be-a-skittles-man/

    so idk what the context was where mine came from…maybe snickers? Lol

  42. Scray

    Dont hold back. It’s Friday. Just come out and agree with me. Dont beat around the bush.

    Alpha = decisive action. [dynamic passionate and authentic!]

    beta = hesitant action [fear!]

    results are interpreted by whom though? Yareally?

  43. @Sentient

    You can beat around the bush all you like, your DPA stuff is just encouraging guys to be passive and avoidant, and ultimately aligns with the FI : don’t you dare take an active role in your love/sex life, just sit back and let the girls choose you.

  44. @sentient

    Dont hold back. It’s Friday. Just come out and agree with me. Dont beat around the bush.

    lol it’s “easy to agree with you” because your DPA formulation is so vague that it can mean anything, here you’ve taken dynamic, passionate, and authentic to = decisive. none of those words means decisive, none of those words is even a synonym for decisive….but you’ve just shoehorned it in anyway and sure people can spitball and say ok i guess kind of…and people can go the other way too….and that’s why it is a terrible formulation.

    and lol i’m not agreeing with you, anyway. I’m showing why the shit you think shows beta traits can turn into alpha traits is just adding in other alpha (or beta) traits into the mix.

  45. “When he handed her that bag of skittles, you can bet your ass she was just so shocked that he somehow knew skittles were her FAVORITE CANDY EVER!!”

    Q: Why do men have to treat women in a mechanistic way to get laid?
    A: Because they don’t understand a single thing women are saying.

  46. @Othergrain: “Only thing I can find supports yours . . .”

    Bingo! Perhaps I should have provided the link myself. I was ingroup thinking. It can happen even when you’re being careful about that sort of thing. That’s one of the reasons to be careful about it.

    Yes, your example is revolting.

  47. Klem

    You need some more notes brodie…

    Dynamic – passionate – authentic = alpha.

    Dynamic – a bias for action, initiation, invention. These are male life giving and sustaining traits. A man siting on his ass ain’t bringing in mastodon meat or discovering how to make fire or exploring and conquering new territories or defending existing ones. Male dynamism is the corollary to female reproduction and nurturing.

    Passion – a hunger for increasing knowledge and skill. Passion is the fuel for dynamic endeavor, informing and amplifying. Passion brings life to the male trait of mission, which drives larger society forward in the same way a female’s biological mission is to bare children – but on a broader basis. Passion reveals the mysteries of the cosmos underpinning navigation and exploration, the relationship of musical notes creating Bach’s fugues and the development of medicine.

    Authentic – male truth, the counter to female truth which is emotion. Being who you are by living as you say. This is independent of any moral judgements. Authenticity is the bedrock of leadership. So when you declare to drive your enemies from their land, raze their buildings and salt their fields you mean it AND you do it. Walking the talk even when difficult.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/03/10/how-the-urban-man-can-be-more-masculine/

    The working hypothesis…

  48. Tapped out on this discussion temporarily.

    Ive been chewing on the whole beta/alpha thing all day long though. The issue for me is that I can’t get out of my own head and MPO. I don’t think this is a bad thing though.

    I fall a lot closer to Sentient’s viewpoint though, but YaReally has some very interesting pua influenced takes that can’t be written off or ignored.

    Scray is still kinda hamfisted ( I suffer from this too…no shade ) so I’m disagreeing more with his position as he states it.

    HABD is logically very convincing…but what’s new?

    But what’s struck me most, and causing me to think even more is something kfg alluded to previously.

    The difference between ” technical ” and ” artistic “. Chord struck with me.

    But it has been interesting to see guys questioning DPA as a concept, and trying to deconstruct it technically. It seems as though somehow guys are being trained in some fashion to over complicate things and question everything to the point of mental paralysis.

    As an aside, and maybe O/T, I’ve raised a shitload of cats, lol. My specialty was very large black toms. Mini Panthers.

    I always knew what they were thinking.

    I’m always open to ” the other way “, so YaReally makes sense in his analysis of having guys ” do ” to gain experience, and then informing their mindset. Sounds reasonable.

    Still, mindset is optimal imo. My experiences have been the opposite of what Ya describes, I had to think, believe and then do. The mindset that resulted from this was transferrable across much of life itself.

    But….if we are only talking about getting pussy/women, that’s another story.

    Women are easy.

    They’re just chicks.

  49. “YaReally makes sense in his analysis of having guys ” do ” to gain experience, and then informing their mindset. Sounds reasonable.”

    It’s perfectly reasonable, within its purview, and Ya Really explicitly states the purview. All the frickin’ time. The problem only arises when you begin to bleed that purview outside of its boundaries.

    The purpose of teaching noobs game is the make them not noobs any more. If you start seeing everything in light of how noobs see things, than you start creating a Harrison Bergeron world where nobody is allowed to be an expert.

    First you paint by number. Then you paint by style. Then . . . you start creating art.

    And sure as shit some guy who’s an expert at painting by number is going to come along and tell you that you’re doing it all wrong, when he doesn’t even understand what the fuck it is you’re doing.

  50. @Klem

    This comment section is really a proof that guys are just as emotion driven as chicks.

    I hope you got good feelz of superiority by writing this, heh, heh.

  51. @hank holiday
    Props on going out and challenging yourself. Like I say, you are putting in more effort than most guys who have WAY better logistics and environments and opportunities to work with that they completely take for granted. I have mad respect for that ’cause I had to hustle to get my ass to venues where I could approach for most of my pickup career until recently where I moved into the nightlife district to not have to struggle so much.

    “chat up some bartenders. they all think I am cool from getting all the drinks.”

    Man do I ever wanna see you sarging in a better city lol You have no idea how far ahead of the game you are compared to most guys starting out, when they have way more opportunity than you.

    “I’ve got some fries I ordered.”

    Props on trying to extract but if you get too much resistance then just eat fries with her, spike her emotions and try again after the fries lol

    “fries come. everyone shares them. I get black girl to feed me a fry.”

    lol good.

    “try to pull black chick again. she gets up, walks off. I follow her. she walks out the bar, passed the chairs outside, and then maybe 20 feet away from the bar. Interesting the she walked that far…usually a girl will walk the minimum distance and be like “okay, what do you want.””

    She’s trying to make sure she has isolation so you can escalate on her. Right in front of the bar her friends will see her.

    “So I put my back to a lamp post and chat her up…which wasn’t ideal since I should have had her facing away from the bar.”

    Yup, step so that her back is facing the bar and she “forgets” about it, and at this point you should be up in her space instead of leaning back. Like the Liam Mcrae Rapid Escalation stuff…get up in her grill and escalate the sexual tension. ’cause sooner or later “nurse joy and charazard show up again and pull her away.”

    “not quite two hours later I text black girl “Nurse joy didn’t pull out charazard’s pokeballs did she…” but heard nothing yet.”

    Probably gonna be wood. Push for the SNL instead. Thinking back, what could you have done when you were outside together to get her to leave with you? Could you have escalated and moved her away, could you have taken her somewhere close where her friends wouldn’t find her, could you have engaged her friends when they came to get her, etc?

    “I did the usual of letting my hand go more slack after we first shook — so she was free to take it back if she wanted. But she held it there for about 10 sec or so.”

    Huge ioi. I do this a lot. Depending on the venue and how cockblocky her friends are, if she doesn’t take her hand back right away try putting it up around your neck so you end up in the slow-dance position with the space cut so you can laser easy and build tension etc, if you want to fuck around with more kino.

    Either way just understand that that’s a signal that she’s comfortable with you and that’s something you can build on.

    “pulling her back towards me, stroking her kneee and upper thigh, grabbing her necklace that was right by her boobs, and ofc at the last bar I rediscovered her she was sitting right on me just about, pushing into me”

    Re-reading that does it smack you in the face how much attraction you had? lol We often miss or second-guess these things in the moment but when you type up an FR it’s like “…oh shit, I guess I could’ve just pulled her in and made out with her outside FUCK!!” lol

    “I acted then like I didn’t remember her and made her tell me where we met.”

    Good lol

    “Walked to a bigger costume party. I went to this in just a hoodie. But I just acted like I was in costume. Chatted up the girls at pay area about it. Made them guess, couldn’t figure it out.”

    lol I did this a bunch. “What, you mean you can’t tell? Don’t you watch TV?” etc

    “but part of it was he was a guy who gave bj’s at a glory hole, and he even scratched up his knees to make it more authentic.”

    wow I didn’t expect anyone to dress up as Sentient for Halloween. (OMEGA GAMMA SHOTS FIRED PEW PEWW lol)

    “I was the ONLY dude that bounced around between groups. Most people were fairly open to chat…but they weren’t interested in meeting new people really. They were there just to party with their own friends. This is pretty standard for this location…and why I hate it. You don’t really have anything like a bigger city where people go out to socialize. Here there is a very strong “stick to your own group” vibe here.”

    Ya these are the toughest venues to do cold approach in. It’s funny how people work that way…like why not stay home and drink for cheap if you don’t want to mingle with new people etc When you do get to a bigger city you are gonna become a club rat ’cause you’ll be like “holy shit people coming out with just one friend, and open to talkig to new people?!?!” and will be in heaven lol

    “Biggest issue with this is that no one is really ever out to hook up. There’s nothing like a singles bar or anything. I’ve only VERY rarely seen any girls/guys out alone, or girls night out girls looking to hookup. Pretty much everyone everywhere I go is already picked out someone before hand — they get someone somewhere else, and THEN come to the venues. But there is nothing like I see in all these RSD vids where girls and guys are out to mingle, hook up, and have fun.”

    If it helps, you’re not wrong in your observations at all. That doesn’t make the situation better, but like, you aren’t going crazy or making excuses etc This is a legitimate dynamic that happens especially in smaller towns. The solution is generally to work group theory (work your way in through the guys and work your way in over time and don’t set off any red flags etc) and social circle game so you can work your way into those circles and have access to the girls…the problem is that most of the time that’s not worth the effort ’cause the girls you’ll have access to won’t even be that great in your current city (VS Luke running social circle game in Vegas) so it feels like a lot of effort for not much reward.

    “I just went around chatting with everyone, guessing their costumes and having them guess mine.”

    If you were doing this in a better venue/city that wasn’t so cliquish/loud, you would be tearing shit up. You’re taking right action and building the right skillsets, you just don’t have good materials to work with right now. Like following a cake recipe but using poop instead of cake mix. So don’t beat yourself up about it.

    How’s the job/moving situation looking?

    “There was ONE group of people I met that was cool. More like the kind of people I run into more often at bars–more like the biker dude. We had a fun convo here, they had a great vibe. I actually went to get their numbers…and they just kept talking. I was gonna walk off, but we kept talking for like 10-15 more minutes. Got their numbers though so I can maybe meet up with them some other time. But its worth noting out of the 100+ people that were here that night, these were really the only cool sociable people there.”

    lol that’s why I roll my eyes when people are like “BRO U WUD NEVER SARGE IN A BIKER BAR MY BADASS TOUGH BIKER GUYS WUD KNOW U WERE SOME CITY CHODE AND BEET U UP FOR TALKIN TO OUR GIRLS”. Yes, I would sarge those venues (cuz like hank I was working with a shitty city with a limited selection of venues so I was going to ANYWHERE I could get some experience at), and I have sarged them, and these big scary dudes are often the nicest dudes in the world if you’re just cool with them and treat them like normal people instead of putting on a shtick or pre-judging them as some stereotype. But the people who say that stuff are the people who picture PUA as being this in-your-face AMOG everyone and try to makeout with their girlfriend in front of them stereotype lol

    “Very different from RSD where they were out in that outdoor area with all the palm trees, and that other venues with that side area where he was doing the hub thing — like there is an actual VENUE.”

    Note that they PICK those venues FOR that reason, and they move girls to quieter areas of the venues on purpose etc. Again it’s like only having poop to make your cake with. Small tight venues, especially with live music, are tough to do anything in once they start getting crowded. In the summer there’s options like street game, smoking area game, patio game, etc at a lot of those venues, but as it gets colder it becomes a pain in the ass.

    “This what was so depressing about it all. Jesus, I saw HUNDREDS of people that night…and there were maybe 10 max I would say were bangable for me. Its like, its halloween, everyone is out, everyone is dressed up and sexy, and there is basically fuck nothing.”

    lol this is the stuff that will help you get to a new better city. Like it’s impossible that you’re going to live your whole life and die where you live right now. You’re GOING to get to a different city and it’s probably going to have some better options than this one when you do. And when you DO get there you’re going to destroy that city with the skillset you’re building. You’re basically training with massive weights on while other guys stand around and txt at the gym as their workout.

    “Right after I was creeping back into being suicidal again, but I’ve been there enough that I pulled myself out.”

    lol you’ll probably always creep back toward that after really bad nights. Your big problem right now is that a lot of this stuff is out of your control…you’re not CHOOSING to live there, or CHOOSING to go to venues that don’t have selection etc, so there’s a lot of powerless frustration. Plus you’re getting glimpses of positive results where you KNOW that in another city in another venue that shit would blow up huge…like the guy who’s on the bench but knows he can hit a homerun and the coach won’t let him play lol

    This is the stuff that will force you into doing ANYTHING you can do to get to another city, even if it’s not ideal or means a lifestyle hit etc. Like the current city I live in, as soon as I saw it I knew it was perfect for sarging in, so I moved into a complete shithole dump just to get myself here and it took a couple months to get out of there into a better place and that move had a lot of conseqeunces that I’ve had to recover from that over the last couple years, but it was worth it because when I go out tonight I know I’ll be surrounded by hot girls lol

    “***#1 THING**** I need more options on relocating. Any more options/suggestions on doing that? Companies to work for, especially something like a short time work you can go out to a new place for a bit and get a job? I just need to have a job available for a place I move to…I will probably have to use up just about all my money just to get there…I will MAYBE have enough to get housing, but will probably have to get family to help me out even then.”

    Has anyone offered suggestions on this? Gotta figure on a red pill forum full of self-made men, someone would have some ideas for ya. And again as much as I make fun of the RVF forum, they might be able to help you with some of this. Same with the RSD Inner Circle for your area if there’s a forum section for it. Red pill guys, especially PUA types, understand what you’re trying to do…explain your situation (that you want to move to a better city to sarge) and ask them for advice and you never know what you’ll find.

    Also befriending guys in the bar, like that band you befriended, follow that up and see where it leads. Travel to that other city to sarge and focus on just befriending guys there that might let you crash at their place for a couple months while you look for work at McDonalds etc. Someone somewhere sooner or later will be able to help you out, especially if you can give them value by wingmanning them and bringing good positive energy etc

    “Also, kind of HAD to get the gestures down, since it was so loud. Later on, I was able to use good gestures to compliment my voice to kinda make up for the noise.”

    This is the reframe for those loud venues…they give you a chance to work on your body language and subcomms/mannerisms. Sometimes I’ll literally just say nonsense jibberish to the girl because I know she can’t hear me but I’ll say it with different facial expressions and act like she said something offensive etc for fun lol It lets me practice giving off different vibes or creating a story for us (like where she offended me at one point but I forgave her etc) through just my expressions/mannerisms since we can’t hear what we’re saying.

    But it’s not ideal lol ideally the venue has quiet areas somewhere that you can lead her to or stick to opening in.

    A lot of the reason these venues HAVE loud music is because no one HAS anything to really say…make it hard for people to talk and no one has to feel insecure that they don’t know how to socialize with others and they can relax and not worry about that lol

    “after I brought up the free beers story with biker dude, I told him about my job problems and the wrecks and issues. This was a good set up — funny energetic story up front, then go into more vulnerable story afterwards”

    Do this strategy more, especially whenever you visit that other city. This is how you get people to 1) like you because you GAVE them value and good emotions at first, and 2) offer you solutions if they can help you because they like you and WANT to help you. Like whenever you’re in a set with guys who are receptive to you and you have them liking you, drop into your desire to move to that other city and difficulty finding a job there. Specifically those problems, ’cause they can’t help with your health or whatever, but they might know someone who can hook you up with work or a roommate etc

    “The older black girl said “you remind me of a guy I know named Bob.” and I just smoothly added in “well bob must be incredibly handsome.””

    lol we have the same sense of humor.

    “She said, when the others had walked off, that the slutty girl had a husband who was there so I shouldn’t hit on her any more. I said “Im not hitting on her.” because I wasn’t”

    lol they just see the attraction spikes in her subcomms whenever you walk away from her abruptly, and they assume you’re purposely doing something to cause those spikes aka hitting on her.

    “Also did good with just giving her disapproving looks and blank stares like I did with the slut. Just stop talking and stare at her lol. So she’s have to fill in the space “What? What is it? It wasn’t that bad was it?””

    lol now translate this to the loud venue where you can’t talk. Give those same blank stares and disapproving looks etc

    “but she was resistant to hold hands, kind of barely shook. Issue here was just on her bf being just a few feet away lol.”

    This lol. This is why I push so hard for guys to learn about lasers and tonality and innuendo etc Because you can build a ton of sexual tension but it’s all under the radar VS kino which is great but sets off a shitload of red flags. I can be talking to a guy’s wife right beside him and he doesn’t know what we’re doing but he can FEEL her being attracted to me, but can’t really pin it down to anything I’m doing because we’re just having a conversation.

    “Much better there, sneak in that FTC right there.”

    Good, the FTC SEEMS dumb, but it’s a mental hack that helps make people more receptive because they don’t have to immediately decide “do I want to spend my entire day engaging this person” where they’re more choosy/picky about who they engage…VS someone who’s just dropping in for a couple minutes and they can loosen up and not care, where you get more of a chance to connect with them and build a good vibe because they aren’t as on the defensive, and then you just ignore your own FTC if it’s going well.

    ““That’s cool. We’re just gonna get some coffee as all. 123””

    Good place for Julien’s “don’t worry I’m her gay friend from years ago, I’m gonna take her shopping” etc disqualifiers to diffuse the friends.

    “I keep saying “123…whats the rest…123” asian looks at her friend and back to me. She then tells me the rest of her number.”

    lol this is why it’s like, you can HAVE attraction, but if you don’t know how to handle the other external dynamics like logistics, social pressure, group approval, etc it can fuck a good set up. She’ll probably have been scolded for it right after and flake.

    “also would have helped a bit with friend if I could have said “No no, Sarah and I are friends. Just give us a minute. Just one minute. Real fast I promise.”

    This. Julien also uses “okay fine, just let us say goodbye, we’re just saying goodbye, two seconds”. As he explains it: that tells them that you’re GOING to leave, which helps them back off because until then they don’t know if you’re trying to take their friend right then and there, and it lets them feel like they’ve won a little bit, and it lets them think you’re just saying goodbye when really you still get the number but more subtly lol

    “Yeah I was the guy at the mall.”

    Would have left this out. Just assume she knows who it is lol I’d have said “save my name as Jessica in your phone” or something, to help her sneak around on her boyfriend/cockblock friend, and create a conspiracy roleplay.

    “Anyway, part way into this conversation when I was chatting with the other guy about girls she just says “Hank you have too many girls.””

    lol what you’re doing is WAY OUTSIDE OF SOCIAL NORMS. Most people could never do it. That’s why you go to venues and all these cliques are just hanging out with the people they already know. They’re all scared to put themselves out there like you’re doing and their lives will generally be mundane and eventless because of it.

    “It was good though in that it was a situation where it felt WEIRD *not* to open a girl. I’ve gotten to the point were I’ve rewired my mind like that.”

    I have a buddy who opens constantly and he says that’s what it’s like for him. He did it enough that now it feels weirder NOT to open them. He feels more comfortable talking to ANYONE at a bar than he does NOT talking to anyone, whereas most people are the reverse because they don’t approach as much as he did.

    “I’m also prepped now to open a girl going into a car…kind of like how I briefly opened the asian girl in the cafe…then the next time I saw a asian girl in a cafe a couple days ago I actually sat down next to her and ran game on her for a few minutes…and now I know how to turn that all into a pull.”

    Reference experiences are king. It’s all baby steps and exposing yourself to these different situations. That’s why Tyler Julien etc can adapt to random circumstances infield, because their brains have seen enough similar circumstances to quickly piece together how to navigate that new situation competently.

    “This works on everyone, but its especially good on guys.”

    Guys are generally friendly and just as in their head scared to socialize as you are, or MORESO most of the time, because they don’t even HAVE a process-based skillset to fall back on when they’re nervous. It makes THEIR night better to engage them because it helps THEM loosen up and get more social in general.

    When you walk into a venue, most of the time everyone there is just scared shitless to express themselves. When you can really see them that way, you almost just feel bad for them, and opening becomes almost about helping them express themselves more than taking something from them.

    That’s why I introduce random girls to random guys and stuff, because I know I’m making everyone’s night better. And the guys usually give me free drinks. lol

    “But the costume party/free beer are great stories that will help if you want to make friends with people fast.”

    BECAUSE you’re out infield testing these stories out, the field is helping you naturally refine them into stories that have more impact or sound cooler or DHV you better or have harder hitting punchlines or rhythms etc This is why you can’t learn this stuff just reading and theorizing, just like a comedian has to go up and test his routines until he perfects them.

    “Chat up a guy who I *think* is a patron…but ends up he’s a bartender…The fact that he actually WORKED there was telling.”

    These are the best accidental opens because those guys are used to people only engaging them because they’re behind the bar where they clearly have value (aka people trying to take value from them, free drinks, access to the venue, etc). So when you open them by accident off shift they’re like “hey this person is engaging me for ME as a human being, they don’t even realize I work here and could be giving him free drinks and shit”.

    And if you want to make it “accidentally” happen more often, engage any guys/girls you see sitting alone near the end service area of the bar drinking or eating, like where the waitress punches stuff into the machine or collects trays of drinks or whatever, there’s always a spot at the bar where off-shift staff chills because it’s a bit out of the way and they can chat with their coworkers during slow periods. Sometimes this’ll be a little table right beside that spot depending on the venue. Post up beside them and just shoot the shit and you’ll find that most of the time they’re someone who just got off-shift or is starting their shift soon or who’s just dropped in to kill some time in a place they feel comfortable.

    “He smuggles weed, drops acid, and is an overall irresponsible asswipe. I didn’t mind this at the time…but later on he gave me reason to.”

    lol in the future you can tell these stories and just keep what bar he works at anonymous or say it was years back in another city etc so no one recognizes the guy, but like, even just this intro is like “what happens next???” captivating.

    “they haven’t formed a circle they can lock you out of.”

    Really this is the key. If they aren’t in that full circle exclusion mode, you should be able to mingle with them. Just keep things light, don’t get too kino aggressive blatant, feel out the dynamics and work the group and figure out who’s with who…the girls in the group are subconsciously paying attention to all of this to scope out your value in relation to their men (always seeking the Hypergamous best option). And classic group theory, lead the men and you’ll lead the women etc

    ““Yes, I have all the diseases.””

    lol

    “So what I think happened here is our chat at first was neutral enough, but as we started chatting about dicks it got too sexual for her.”

    This. If he wasn’t there, it would have probably been fine. But with him there it’s ASD/judgement/social pressure/drama/etc because he’s probably NOT a guy who ever has conversations like that with her.

    “I simply take my hand, plant it on her face, and push her away.”

    lolol

    “Don’t remember how all this ended, I know though she put her hand on my face and pushed me in retribution. Later she just stared at me kinda blankly (she didn’t seem mad or anything) and we locked eyes for maybe 15 seconds then she walked off.”

    Hint: she wasn’t MAD. 😉 I hope I don’t have to explain this one to you lol

    “…and it still looks better than yours.””

    http://i.imgur.com/xgz9nkR.gif

    “Redhead BLOWS THE MOTHERFUCK UP”

    fucking lol Beautifully done. And note what it does to her emotions. This is what I’m talking about when I say EMOTIONAL IMPACT. Did she give a single fuck or notice whether your shoes matched your belt, or how expensive your watch was, or whether you have a six-pack or any of that other stupid shit guys worry about? No, in that moment when you’re giving her emotional IMPACT, none of that shit matters.

    That’s why Krauser’s style of game falls apart outside of the one specific set of circumstances he approaches in, and it’s why he has to dress in his skull stuff at age 40, because his style of game itself doesn’t have a lot of emotional impact, it’s the bare minimum of it, so the girls end up taking in all that other stuff about him. Same with the RVF guys I make fun of too, who are concerned about their pocket squares and $300 shoes…that shit only matters if you aren’t making emotional impact.

    When you properly make emotional impact it’s like an EMP nuke on her entire computer system, you take over her RAS completely and all that other shit becomes irrelevant.

    “Very very different vibe…and nice to see another guy confirm it for me”

    Ya, the thing you’re describing is a thing that legitimately happens. Like you are literally just in a shitty city for what you’re trying to do. You could move to almost any larger city and have much better opportunities. You’re not crazy or imagining it or making excuses. Some cities are worse for this than others.

    “I later learn that night that he’s a musician in a band. Awesome. These are my peeps. The drummer at the venue where people bought me the beers was the same way. They are all super chill dudes. They are loners, don’t chat people up unless prompted, but they don’t look like losers at all. They are completely at ease being alone. They don’t look desperate or sad or anything. Very zen.”

    ’cause they put themselves up on stage in front of MASSIVE social pressure of the entire room watching and judging them, and then express themselves through their music. They’re doing something similar to what you’re doing, so it builds their internals.

    “I think I’d like to go on tour with a band. Don’t really want to go into music but I know already I get along very well with musicians and they travel a lot like I would like to. So once I find the right people and get my shit together (read — health issues) I want to see if I can go gypsy and ride around the country for a spell. Regardless, I know now to hit up more music venues and try to hang out with more musicians. Also, musicians are an AMAZING source of stories and DHVs and shit.”

    Ya man, go for it. Life is short lol Befriend dudes and that networking will help with a lot of problems, like finding places to stay etc. Like this guy you could come into his bar for a drink and shoot the shit and get him laughing and then be like “ya I been job hunting in Better City all day but can’t catch a break so I figured fuck it I’ll drown my sorrows in a beer. I gotta get outta this town!” etc You never know where that conversation is gonna lead.

    “Through all this we had locked eye contact. I remember very clearly she did the thing that Julia Roberts did in that clip with James Franco, where her eyes dart back and forth between his eyes.”

    James Franco’s lasers in that scene (and in his General Hospital scenes with the blonde chick) are epic. They seem over the top exaggerated to watch from a 3rd person perspective, but if you do what he’s doing to girls it’s HUGE. And remember the more you cut the space the more the sexual tension builds.

    “I switch over to the others and guess their costumes.”

    Anything you can think of that you could have done differently here? It sounds like you basically had a one on one isolated conversation with this girl (even if the isolation was just her back was facing her friends). How could you have taken this somewhere?

    “Apparently, one guy actually DID whip out his dick. The girls are disgusted and leave.”

    Sorry I was pretty hammered.

    “Guy clearly isn’t gonna do it, but I have to go.”

    Good choice. If your goal was just to get drunk you could do that at home for cheaper. If your goal is to get girls, especially when you find one you’re attracted to, you make that shit happen lol You can always get another beer (and knowing you, someone will probably buy you one lol)

    “They walk off to the car. I ask for her number.”

    If it’s any consolation the number would probably be wood anyway. The question to ask is is there anything else you could’ve done with this girl to change this outcome?

    Could you have gotten her to stay behind when her friends left? Through group approval, through saying/doing something with her, through LYING if you have to (“oh my friends are showing up soon, keep me company for one drink”, etc), introduce her to other people so she’s locked into new conversations, introduce her friends to other people so they fuck off, etc

    Like you HAD lasers, so you HAD attraction going…but can you see any way you could’ve gotten her to stick around while they go off?

    “Head back in. Bartender said he was going to bring my beer in but I don’t see it. He just tossed it.”

    lol no surprise. But you made the right choice chasing her down. Who knows you might run into her next week and be able to bust on her for not having the cool glowy eyes anymore so now you’re not attracted to her etc

    “Not going to go into a long psychoanalysis of myself, but I’m pretty sure I’m wholly or partially a psychopath.”

    lol a lot of this stuff will sort itself out when you have more control over your world. Stuff like the bartender being a dick is just so uncalled for and so unwarranted and so needlessly assholish, combined with him having status where you can’t really flip your shit at him and get him back (because it would ultimately be a net negative for you since you would lose a venue, maybe have to deal with legal issues, etc), so it’s like the ultimate frustration. I mean, you’re an adult, in an adult environment, and basically got “bullied” when you’re out there trying to give value to people and didn’t do anything wrong to this guy. What kind of bullshit is THAT lol

    Down the road you’ll just feel bad for people like that, because you’ll have enough control over your life and have enough abundance and be coming from a place of value where stuff like that will just seem silly to you but not cause any real emotional reaction…you’ll look down on people like that but more in an “I feel sorry for you that you’re trapped in this low vibration headspace where you would do something like that” rather than in a “you’re dead to me you piece of shit” way lol But right now you don’t have any real control over most of your life and then this guy comes along and adds to it kicking you when you’re down, in the middle of the one area you’re finally starting to get a bit of control over, and it’s like man fuck this guy.

    ““Hey Its Hank.” she says.”

    ioi. Not that she remembered your name ’cause she might just be good at it, but that she re-opened you when she didn’t have to and used your name instead of “oh uhh hey.”

    ““Are you taller than me?” I ask.”

    Good. I use this a lot lol if a girl takes off a shoe to measure her height against me it’s a huge ioi (I mean look at that floor gross). I always just glance down blatantly at their shoes and simply say “You’re CHEATING.” They know what I mean and start to qualify themselves.

    “I start to leave…but redhead isn’t bad for a redhead…hmmm…”

    lol the better your game skills get, the more attraction you’ll get from girls, and the more variety of girls you’ll find go from “not my type” to “hmmm…” when you feel that sexual tension/attraction with them. You’ll probably always prefer a certain type of chick but you’ll be surprised at what you’re open to. My ACTUAL type of girl that really triggers my hindbrain isn’t the type I thought I liked back in my AFC days at all, it’s almost the exact opposite type lol But I wouldn’t have learned that without going out and meeting lots of different girls.

    When you have these “hmmm…” moments, just run with them and don’t question it. Sexual attraction/chemistry/tension is fun, see where it goes.

    “Go back in. There she is. She’s with her bf and the other couple playing pool. I go join them.”
    “I’m not really good enough to poach the redhead from her bf now, but I decide to just stick in there and get some references.”

    Good man. You could’ve gone home or not re-engaged this group and missed out on everything you’re about to learn in the rest of this report lol But you pushed yourself. The field is about gathering reference experiences. Julien’s motto is “I wonder what would happen IF…” Like “I wonder what would happen IF I went back into this set…”

    “Redhead’s bf is standing in front of her, she’s sitting down behind him on a stool. I ask the bf”

    Good man. Classic group theory: engage the guy instead of the girl. It lets her observe how he reacts to you and helps her sort out who’s the Hypergamous best option.

    ““We are. 25 to 0.””

    That’s a hell of a pool score lol

    ““I also helped” the redhead says.”

    Qualifying herself. ’cause of the emotional impact you made and your accent teasing etc. Plus she may have seen you lasering with the glowy eyes girl. Basically why WOULDN’T she be attracted to you? Look how lame her boyfriend is compared to the value you’ve displayed to her.

    ““ahh, so you are the cheerleader.” I say to the gf”

    Good lol Her BF said a bit of a socially retarded spergy thing and you turned it into good fun feels and a bit of a roleplay.

    “Redhead just happens to bump into me as she gets up to take a shot.”

    ioi. She wouldn’t bump into a creepy old homeless man covered in garbage.

    “However, when she leaned over, she also wiggled her ass around a bunch…which was NOT visible from where her bf was standing…but WAS visible to me standing behind her.”

    lol not an accident. She knows her body and what it’s doing and she knows where the guys around her are.

    “I realize bf looks like a movie star. I tell him this. I can’t remember the actor’s name but I describe the movies he is in. Bf doesn’t know. Bf leaves to go take a shot.”

    lol guys with their girlfriends in bars are usually pretty lame. They’re either super friendly chodes or they’re super aloof paraoid every guy is hitting on their girl and can’t loosen up and have fun (outcome dependent/scarcity, go monogamy!).

    Pool is funny because the guy HAS to keep leaving to take a shot, leaving you alone with his girl. You can bet every shot he took that game was frustrating as fuck to him because all he’s thinking is “fuck this guy is gonna keep talking to her!!” lol That’s probably part of why he panicked.

    “Redhead sits down on a stool. I sit down next to her.”

    Sitting down next to her was the big final trigger. Looks pro-active like you’re trying to hit on her. Whereas if you had naturally been sitting there already or stood somewhere and she stood/sat beside you, you could engage her with less triggering because that looks less gamey. Also he’s picking up little buying temperature spikes and subcomms and stuff and can FEEL something’s going on even if he can’t describe it.

    ““Don’t talk to my girlfriend again.” He says coldly”

    lolol Really this is a compliment that he views you as a threat. When a year ago he probably would’ve disregarded you completely.

    ““Ah no man. We’re just talking. I talk to everyone. That’s all. My name’s Hank by the way.””

    Good handling of it, with the name exchange and handshake. When you offer your hand out like that in a friendly way, he’s forced to shake it because if he doesn’t he looks like a chode to his girl. You’re putting him in a super frustrating position lol The irony is to his girl it looks like you have his approval, like you initiated a friendship and he reciprocated lol so this all just builds your value to her.

    Like I always say: other guys make me look GOOD. So I don’t mind other guys at ALL. They’re just going to boost MY value to the girls because I’ll always be 0.00001% cooler than them.

    “If you see a guy working on your girl, just walk up, put your arm around her, give her a passionate kiss real quick, then turn to the guy and introduce yourself. You should have enough control that just by *being* there the girl is 100% into you. He *tried* doing that a bit earlier, they were a little touchy feely, but it didn’t really work.”

    lol ya. There’s a whole bunch of stuff behind this, from guys being uncomfortable with sexuality in general (FI-shaming) to not being dominant enough to make a move like that sexy to the girl instead of reactive, to not having good enough social skills and confidence to pro-actively engage another guy because he’s just some monoLTR guy who watches Netflix with her all evening instead of a guy who’s out shaking 100 strangers’ hands in a night.

    It’s like Julien and Todd talk about: of COURSE you’re going to be more interesting than her Borefriend, if they aren’t early into the NRE stage. You’re out pro-actively working on your social skills and flirting skills and lasers and subcomms etc while he’s not. And in a tug of war with his girlfriend, YOU’RE the one with the outcome independence, he’s not. Like everything is stacked in your favor in those situations lol Being the single guy in a social circle full of couples is dangerous as fuck, you just naturally end up attracting their girlfriends (especially when alcohol is added to it and the girls get more blatant flirty) because you’re the single guy living an exciting mysterious adventurous life and their boyfriends are just these guys that they see all the time and already know everything about and who don’t go out etc

    “Him having to TELL me to stop was him blinking first in our mental staring contest. He reacted first. I was completely calm and composed…but HE is reacting to ME.”

    Yup. And her hindbrain picks up on that. He’s indicating to her that you’re a threat and because women ping off their environment for how to feel and use group consensus etc, she thinks “well he must know something I don’t know” and trusts his “judgement” and attributes value to you that you wouldn’t have if he hadn’t been outcome dependent and reactive.

    But why WOULDN’T he be outcome dependent? He’s in a monoLTR, that’s his GIRLFRIEND. His ONLY source of sex. If he loses her to another guy he loses his only source of sex and good emotions and validation, so he HAS to be outcome dependent.

    A guy with multiple girls on the go would let you flirt and think “finally she’s busy talkig to that guy, now I can mack this waitress I keep getting the eye from” and his chick would be paying more attention to him than you.

    “Just ME being there, standing around, is so unconscionable that he has to tell me off. Here is insecurity, here is him reacting to me, here is all the building blocks I could use to tank his value in his gfs eyes and raise my value. If her knight in shining armor is getting antsy around me…what does that say about me?”

    Exactly.

    “The second deeper realization I had was…you can absolutely poach a girl right under her bf nose. Yes yes, I’ve heard guys chat about being able to work over a dude so well that he actually WANTS you to take his girl because you are so cool. Its different though to experience in person.”

    This is my point on the “internal VS external” exchange with Rollo. I can TELL you this, and you can REALLY think you believe it…but when you actually get that reference experience, that’s when you TRULY believe it. Until you get that reference experience, it’s just theory and a weak theoretical mindset in your brain.

    “it doesn’t ping “hitting on her” at all…subtle as a whisper…then there is the brief outside bit…”

    A big part of negs is that they come off like you AREN’T interested in her, because you’re dissing her, which sparks her attraction and eases everyone’s guard because they’re like “lol he just made fun of her, so he must not be trying to get her, he’s doing all the wrong moves, if he wanted to get her he would compliment her!” lol

    “work on bf more, I didn’t chat him up enough so I seemed like a stranger and a threat…but what if i had worked on him FIRST, get him to like me as much as the band guy did earlier…so now he sees me as a friend…he has no reason to get defensive…”

    Right. Like visualize that whole situation then think back to how Mystery runs a group set. He opens the guys with something interesting, gaining their approval as he DHVs being slightly cooler than them from just being unreactive and winning them over, ignoring his target, and when she chimes in he scolds her with a “simmer down, missy I’m telling a story” or whatever, then does an “is she always like this? you can dress her up but you can’t take her anywhere lol” neg that makes her group lol at her, disarms them because he’s not trying to hit on her, but her attraction goes up and she feels the need to chase his validation, and when she initiates engaging him, guys can’t get mad at HIM because he’s not the one doing the pro-active engagement, SHE is. And then the more they react to that and try to get her away from him, the more value it gives him. etc etc

    “what if I came in with two girls on my arms, so it looks like *I* am taken and so have no reason to poach his girl…and what if I used one of those girls or a wingman to run interference on him..maybe to get one of those quick alone time moments with redhead…”

    You might be a crazy psychopath but you’re a smart one lol Your brain is starting to connect all the elements and see the chess strategies, because you’ve got the basic techniques/mechanics down. Like now that your brain doesn’t have to focus as much on “where do I aim my eyeballs?!?! What do I say when she says this?!” etc, that frees up more processing power to start connecting those things into a bigger overall strategy. That’s why this field experience is so key, even though you’re in a shitty environment, when you get to a better one you’re going to have all of this shit down and other environments in a better city will be like child’s play to you.

    Again this isn’t stuff you can learn from just reading, you have to go out and gather all these little references so that your brain can small-chunk them into more unconscious competence behaviors etc so that it can start stringing them together into a more elaborate spiderweb.

    When I’m doing this stuff I don’t have think about these strategies…I CAN think about them, and I can discuss and explain them to people, and if you show me footage I can break down every minute detail second to second, but in the moment a lot of this stuff is on auto-pilot for me because of my field experience. I KNOW how that guy is going to react, I KNOW what his girl is thinking, I KNOW how my value looks compared to his whenever he does XYZ and I KNOW the next move to capitalize on that is ABC. Because I have all those reference experiences in my head, like the ones you just collected, even if you didn’t get sex out of it.

    “I walk past redheads group. I tell them I am leaving. I shake the bf’s hand first “See you later Daniel.””

    lolol dick. 😀

    “next, the redhead. I say only “Later” and leave off her name.”

    Perfect. The more hooked she is, the less you do.

    ““Goodbye hank.” she says.”

    She’ll remember you name a month from now lol

    “Lol. Now I remember. He had a great Harley Quinn costume, complete with fake boobs lol. I ask him about the costume…ends up he has a tradition where he dresses up as the costume that most girls that year are dressing up as. He said the best one was when he dressed as a cat, and there were about 12 cat girls at the bar. A girl came up to him “Hey are you making FUN of me? I feel like you are.””

    That’s a hell of a lot of work to get the same result he could get with a couple DHVs. But as long as he had fun lol

    “I’m pretty good at this whole pissing people off then getting them to like me…or at least not fight me lol…should work on doing that with girls…only get them to fuck me lol.”

    Welcome to my style of game lol and Julien’s. Just calibrate like a motherfucker and remember there’s no shame in owning your fuckup and sincerely apologizing if you go too far or cross a line with someone.

    Props on heading out. Hope some of this helps. You’re on the right track entirely, literally all you need right now is girls you’re attracted to and these will be Lay Reports lol I have absolutely zero doubts that your FRs will be epic shit when you get to a better city. Like, zero doubt at all.

  52. KFG

    And sure as shit some guy who’s an expert at painting by number is going to come along and tell you that you’re doing it all wrong, when he doesn’t even understand what the fuck it is you’re doing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_4SJ4lZxk

    Great RP short movie (if you just watch the first of the three stories” Life Lessons, from 1988 film New York Stories…

    The Lion delivers a brutal put down to the young buck “you are graffiti artist?” as he catches him staring at his splendid work…

  53. @MrT
    “In comes social conditioning that changes the context. So he gave her skittles (10 beta bucks points), but he also shit on social conventions (what an anniversary present should look like) and made fun of her (30 asshole points).”

    You got it.

    @Rollo
    My wording was bad with the neutral thing, I didn’t at all mean what you’re saying lol I meant what Scray’s talking about in his +/- trait example or like MrT’s example. I should’ve worded things better but I don’t really have to explain this concept very often because it’s not something anyone really questions.

    “His Alpha or Beta status is weighted by a woman’s socialized and naturalized preconception of him before that guy behaves in any way. Those cues may be entirely inaccurate – a homeless guy wearing a borrowed Armani suit for instance – but the initial preconception weights his status to either side of neutral.”

    Like I agree with this completely. The neutral scale thing was a bad metaphor on my end.

    “Judging from the RSD instagram memes it would appear mindset is central to their pitch:”
    “After perusing Owen’s and RSD’s Instagram you’d think it’s almost all about mindset.”

    Like Scray says, you seem to have a way-off view of what we promote lol It looks like you seem to think we’re saying don’t ever focus on internal game and internal game is bad and PUA never teaches anything about internal game, just because we’re saying that objectively speaking you CAN get laid with JUST the externals and shitty internals.

    I can post a dozen videos where Tyler makes fun of the guys who focus on internal woowoo too much and aren’t getting their dick wet because they don’t have technical skills, if that helps.

    This is such weird behavior lol What are you trying to get at exactly?

    Why can we not just make an objective simple observation that you don’t need good internals to get laid, and you guys all seem to take that as “WUT UR SAYING NEVER HAVE GOOD INTERNALS AND GOOD INTERNALS WILL MAKE YOU UNATTRACTIVE LOOK AT THIS TYLER INSTAGRAM POST HE TALKS ABOUT INTERNALS SO WUTZ UP WITH THAT!? CHECKMATE PUAS!!”

    Like wtf??

    @Eon56
    “Fuckin right? I’m overweight. I’m 6′ with a lot of muscle mass but im definitely carrying too much extra. Girls complain about fat guys to me all the time, even some that are simply not fucking fat.”

    lol girls complaining about guys’ bodies to me is the funniest shit ever in my head.

    “He was ripped when they got together. After she lost the attraction, even his positive attributes were now negative. They do this all the time.”

    This.

    “This is why it makes no sense to say that the nature (alpha/beta) of a behavior depends on the mindset behind it. Because this is exactly what that leads to (ripped guys being fat, thin girls being fat, obese women being attractive, consensual sex being rape, and on and on), blatant contradiction and denial of reality.”

    This lol

    @Klem
    “The community just never insisted on the beta side (comfort, rapport etc.) since most guys are already doing this by default.”

    We literally have a whole section of MM dedicated to that stuff lol It’s just that she doesn’t WANT those things from you UNTIL SHE’S ATTRACTED is all.

    The stuff you do in Comfort/Rapport, if you do it BEFORE you have value/attraction with her, you repulse her. That’s WHY all these Nice Guys get blown out when they open and seek rapport immediately. We teach guys to do A1-A3 FIRST because those are where the girl gets attracted and then she WANTS your skittles lol

    Skittles guy already HAS A2 and he gives a SHITTY gift, so those things balance out the beta’ness of giving her shit. A guy without A2 giving her skittles and flowers and presents doesn’t GET A2 because that supplication is inherently objectively beta behavior.

    That doesn’t mean any guy who DOES that IS beta or BECOMES beta instantly the second he does it.

    A beta behavior done before you’ve passed A2 is going to blow you out. A beta behavior done after you’ve passed A2 is STILL a beta behavior, but you have enough value that she’s okay with it or will look past it or will rationalize some of it in a positive way but that behavior is still objectively beta because if you keep doing it and do more of it, you will lose attraction…otherwise any guy who has attraction would never be able to lose it and that doesn’t make any sense lol

    “Also, i’m laughing so hard at guys being butthurt at Scray “YOU SAYING THAT I’M BETA BRO”. This comment section is really a proof that guys are just as emotion driven as chicks.”

    Blows my mind. I missed a few days and skimmed through and saw everyone flip their shit at scray and me when I wasn’t even HERE and it’s like wtf is going on lol

  54. ” Also, i’m laughing so hard at guys being butthurt at Scray “YOU SAYING THAT I’M BETA BRO”. This comment section is really a proof that guys are just as emotion driven as chicks”

    I disagree.

    This isn’t a true characterization of what happened.

    Again, not to start anything, but some guys ….. ahhh, never mind.

  55. “I missed a few days and skimmed through and saw everyone flip their shit at scray and me..”

    Yeah, well let’s just say that skimming shit pattern of yours has been a pattern here. And an AHDH type lack of understanding of what other commenters have actually said and what their abstract stance is.

    Your logic is full of fallacies.

    That being said, your contributions are wonderful. When you stick to PUA game. Simply fantastic stuff you type about PUA Game. You should stick with that. Rather than abstract arguments about those red pill adherents that are not aligned with strictly PUA game.

    Good luck. With that. And have better social skills talking with the OMG’s

    Obligatory LOL.

  56. @Blaximus

    “But what’s struck me most, and causing me to think even more is something kfg alluded to previously.

    The difference between ” technical ” and ” artistic “. Chord struck with me.”

    technician = conscious competence
    artist = unconscious competence + inspiration

    “I’m always open to ” the other way “, so YaReally makes sense in his analysis of having guys ” do ” to gain experience, and then informing their mindset. Sounds reasonable.

    Still, mindset is optimal imo. My experiences have been the opposite of what Ya describes, I had to think, believe and then do. The mindset that resulted from this was transferrable across much of life itself.”

    you CAN do it both ways. but to do it ‘inside –> outside’ you need to have your MPoO solidly in you already…

    you can do it ‘outside –> inside’ regardless of where your MPoO starts/is… and doing it that way helps move MPoO to you at the same time… so win-win…

    good luck!

  57. Alpha = Gal buys him the drink and fucks him. Those who played broke guy game before; very hard to play by the way women can smell this out of you with surprising accuracy. In a club, dont sit. Walk around drinkless. Chat up gals, pick ones with ioi, any time they ask why you are not taking anything tell them you are broke if they can buy you a drink. Some will offer, some who offer may lose interest, one or two will keep buying and “offer” (imply) that you go out together. To that gal you are alpha as fak.

    At some point all women expect provision and that is where comfort shit tests have to come in. You must provide otherwise the girl will be hurt. You must. In the beginning the spark/tingles is/are enough. But eventually her need for provision will rear its ugly head up. Whatever you do at some point in a realationship with a woman you have to give her some beta. Pure alpha is unpalatable. The degree of beta must however be caliberated to minimal. Just enough to make a woman know you got her rear covered for now but can change anytime depending on your perceptions of her, of course she needs to be aware (through subtle/covert communication) that it is subject to your perception of her behaviour now and in future.

  58. @Scray

    ok well this whole mindset stuff just seems an awful lot like a way to hamster everything under the sun as alpha ‘so long as you FELT LIKE IT BRO’ …
    you can’t be 100% super alpha unless you’re planning on a life of just ONS and that’s it.

    so if you want any female companionship beyond that, you’re going to rely on some beta traits.

    but because the manosphere is so up the butt with ‘alpha = good’ we’re just gonna keep on with this “formulation” I guess.

    I didn’t realize how much I missed you and YaReally til now.

    I 100% agree and cosign this. There is such a fixation with “alpha = good” that many people refuse to say something is beta that contributes to a successful relationship.

    But literally, from an ego psych perspective, the beta strategy is resources for sex. It’s built into the mantra: alpha fucks (ie genes/short term mating) and beta bucks (ie resources/long term mating). Women have a plural sexual strategy – they feel pulled by both competing needs. Alpha builds arousal and drives the desire for fucking, beta builds bonding and drives the desire for companionship.

    Athol Kay, in the original non-cuck version of MMSL, built a model that exactly represented this idea- beta and alpha as separate “sliders” with values distinct from each other.

  59. I have the mother of all case studies. Actually, 3-in-one, and the main one having a plethora of family dynamics typical of narcissistic abuse patterns. As example, towards the end, after she had been called out on all of her lies (including the first one she ever told me – she was ritualistically raped by the freemason cult her parents were in, while they watched and approved), she involved her two main “flying monkeys”, that being her parents. After I told them about the cult thing, they told me she lied about being raped at age 12 – some decade later, over the phone, and shrugged it off afterwards.Did her father hold her accountable for the lies she had been caught in? Fuck no. She’s 31, and I’m 51, BTW. He is 64, and a case himself, but lest, I digress. Rather than give her any agency at all, he wrote her a poem, which I will be happy to forward to you if you like, telling her I was the man of her dreams, she was Cinderella, and some bible references (meanwhile, he said she would probably fuck her therapist, if she had one, and told me all about how he writes smut to some married gal online), as a typical beta blue piller would. He, and fathers of all these basket-case post-wall gals, are the ones I blame for not teaching respect to their daughters. They do not even respect themselves.On a side note, I am a dietitian, and used to cover ICU and CCU settings, as well as both OP and geriatric psych units. I’m retired now, and divorced from a nurse practitioner (surprise, I filed shortly after being unplugged), and the father of two special-needs boys. MGTOW is my way of possibly fixing the future for them, even if by long shot. I’m also celibate and do not masturbate any more after redirecting that energy into more productive means.Anyway, I have some 8,000 texts and numerous phone calls. It is a monumental task to just organize it all, but I’m telling you, I used evidence-based tactics to illicit every possible side of a woman with these three gals. I have dubbed them Single Mom from Hell (SMH), Future Old Lady in a Shoe (FOLS) and Future Crazy Cat Lady (FCCL).Give it a think, and if you are interested, I think Dana Morningstar should also be invited on board for her expertise in narcissism and experience as a psych nurse.Regards,Anthony DiValentin(256)330-9073

    WordPress.com | Rollo Tomassi posted: “A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 ” | |

  60. > “it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.”

    Essentially sexual altruism, where meeting a woman’s “need” is the standard of virtue.

  61. “men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38”

    I guess that would explain all the 34-38 year old men I see with college girls *sarcasm*.

    Let’s be real: girls prefer guys their own age up 2 years tops. Studies and anecdote bear this out. You won’t even show up on their Tindwr matches if you’re over 30.

    Of course if you’re happy with being a sugar daddy, that’s a whole different story.

  62. As I enter my 30s and am gainfully employed..it doesn’t take that much effort to get girls (am not even 6 feet lol)..on the MGTOW forums there were commenting on how this guy ran provider game on this chick and dumped her..I wonder if he got her enthusiastic sex from her i.e. her “True Attraction/Arousal”.

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