SMV and the Aging Process

aging_process

A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:

I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD.

I just don’t get it. There are plenty of women closer to their ages and single, but yet they all go for the young women. I feel kind of sad for women entering the dating market, at least where I’m from because it seems women my age have no hope in competing with these younger, perkier women.

Just a rant I suppose. I don’t have anything against younger women of course, but I can’t help but feel a bit unnerved by the trend I see here.

This is an overt observation of what women understand from a very early age – women’s sexual marketability declines with age, while men’s (should) increases as they age. This woman’s concerns should come as no shock to any Red Pill aware man. It’s the clarion call of a woman who’s aging out of the SMP and on the tail end of her Epiphany Phase.

All women have conditions (prerequisites) for men in order for them to become intimate (sexual) with them; he’s got to be good looking, he’s got to be financially stable (surplus resources), he’s got to have some status, respectability, ambition, be confident, he has to be the initiator, he’s has to be decisive, he has to make an emotional connection with her, he’s got have ‘provider’ potential,..etc., etc. And the list goes on and on for any individual woman and according to her ability (i.e. looks) to demand each condition. Each of these personal conditions for intimacy is set in a priority order depending on her ability to demand them and this demand is mediated by her age relative to her attractiveness to men.

It’s no secret that a woman’s sexual marketability declines as she ages and men’s increases as he ages. As a woman ages she progressively loses her ability to physically attract a mate (his one condition for intimacy), thus her conditions and their priority order shift accordingly because she is forced to compete with younger, more attractive women for the same pool of eligible men.

These men tend to be the ones best able to provide for her long term security and any resulting offspring. Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy, in their existing priority order, the more suitable he becomes for that intimacy and the harder she will compete with other women to achieve his long term commitment.

Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. While pre-menopausal women do in fact experience a spike in their testosterone levels and a resulting sex drive increase prior to the last of their eggs dropping, it is women between the ages of 18 and 26 that are in fact in their prime fertility stages. Women’s bodies in this age range are far better prepared for the rigors of pregnancy. At no other phase in her life is she more sexually active and most capable of commanding the attentions of the best male meeting her conditional criteria and in their most strict order. However these conditions are still mediated by her physical attractiveness – thus, if she’s fat her conditions (and their priority) will be adjusted accordingly – but she is nonetheless at her personal prime in this phase.

Unsurprisingly we see in most cultures older males striving for the attentions of the younger and more attractive females, but in western culture he becomes vilified and shamed for this – or at least that’s what western feminized women would like to be the case. The most common complaint women in their mid-thirties bemoan is that “There’s no good men” or they can’t understand why men just can’t “grow up” and find them more attractive than the young women they used to be themselves.

Increasingly, ‘careerist women’ desiring to finally start a family at age 35 find that men – particularly the ones that meet their conditions – in their age range (33-38) are not interested in women (to say nothing of ‘careerist women’) of their own age range. They’re interested in the 22 year olds who wouldn’t give them the time of day when they didn’t have the status (or maturity) that they’ve just discovered they now have. And of course the 35 year old career woman was one of these 22 year old girls, only 13 years prior, who was doing precisely the same thing the 22 year old girls are doing today.

But that doesn’t stop 30 something women from complaining about how men their age are ‘infantile’ for wanting to breed with ‘little girls’, rather than mature, intelligent, respectable career women such as themselves. They are incapable of conceiving why men ‘wont live up to their responsibilities’ and commit to a lifetime with them. They write article after article about how men are in fact threatened by their ‘successfulness’ or their ‘status’, when the simple fact remains that his breeding choices are dictated by one single condition – she’s got to be hot. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. The mid-thirties woman is (with a few notable exceptions) simply not as attractive as younger women.

So as an unspoken reaction to this predicament we get to see the popularity of the idea that “You can be 40 and still ‘have it'” among women. “Those men and their fragile egos just don’t know what they’re missing. How dare they be aroused by, and date younger more attractive women, we’ll show them”, they’d have them believe and pander to this dynamic while encouraging the fallacy that ‘men ought to be ashamed of their sexual impulse.

And finally we encounter the 40+ woman looking for what she couldn’t get in her 30s. Her priorities and conditions for intimacy have been altered radically now. At 40, the career woman has abandoned the idea of long term commitment; she may make up some sort of internalized blame for men not accepting her, but the truth comes that time has or is running out.

Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them.

They’re virile, young, dumb and full of cum. That’ll show those immature older men who don’t know how to commit! She’ll beat ’em at their own game. “Look at what I’ve got! A hot guy (relative, actually) who knows how to pleasure an older woman”; again shaming and insinuating older men’s sexual performance isn’t up to ‘women’s standards’. All conditions for intimacy and the priority orders she had before are out the window with the exception of physical attractiveness now, which, interestingly enough, has been a man’s only condition since he hit puberty. She’s come full circle, only now she makes an effort to enhance her appearance in the gym, with plastic surgery, Botox, breast augmentation, anything that will increase the attraction for young guys.

And of course the young guys are all too happy to ‘fill that hole’ (pun intended) since the effort required to get after it with the 40+ is practically nil and the rejection ratio is far lower. In addition most 22 year old guys know an LTR is more or less out of the question; they may be a booty call for her, but that’s an ideal situation for him, sex on demand with no expectation of any form of security for her. They like to make up reasonings like “she’s more experienced in bed” or “we’re both in our sexual primes”, but this just serves to justify him being a booty call, as if he’d have a problem with that.

The real irony of the whole situation is that 40+ woman is now doing exactly what she mercilessly criticized these ‘immature’, problematic 30-40 something men for doing. However, we don’t see any articles telling women to grow up, or to do the right thing or how infantile they are for sexually desiring younger men. On the contrary, they’re applauded for ‘bucking the system’ and embracing their sexual natures (as if they were formerly repressed) and “You go girl!” using isolated celebrity examples like Demi Moore fucking Ashton Kutcher as a role model.

The SMP After Marriage

For a long while I’ve been content to let bloggers like Athol Kay address sexual dynamics post-marriage (or LTR). I don’t think it’s any real secret that Married Man Sex Life has been more than compromised by a feminine-correct influence and the discussion is now directed by women’s imperatives there. This has been the forum’s state for some time now. So as such, I feel it’s kind of incumbent upon me to open myself up to addressing Red Pill issues within marriage (or LTRs) for the foreseeable future. This is just an avenue I’ll be opening up here, not a particular focus, don’t worry.

The following was a comment from YaReally in last week’s thread. I thought this more or less summed up the disconnect he believes exists between Old Married Guys (OMGs) and Young Single Guys (YSGs) who both have enough Red Pill awareness to want to employ it in their marriages as well as the plates they’re spinning as a PUA:

Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we’re happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that’s awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives’ pics in the “post your idea of a 10” threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it’s simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.

This is an interesting paradox for OMGs, but I think it’s also not accounting for how sexual priorities and Frame shifts as a couple matures. The most glaring shift is of course maturing men’s SMV comparative to their wives’ will almost always be an order of magnitude above that of their wives’. As I laid out in Preventive Medicine, at this stage of maturity the task for wives becomes one of keeping that husband in the dark about his real SMV status; the concern being his sexual disinterest in her and him coming to a realization of his SMV and he leaves her for ‘younger, hotter, tighter’. Whether this is an actual threat is often inconsequential – unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it – what occurs at this phase of a woman’s maturity is either a passive form of Dread or a feeling of regret for not having better optimized Hypergamy for herself so late in life.

Most men (i.e. Blue Pill Betas) never make this connection and blunder through their peak SMV years with a wife whose late-life competition anxiety sounds like nagging most of the time, or else it’s a possessive Frame grab with the latent purpose of keeping him focused on “her needs” rather than coming to understand he’s in the best position to capitalize on his SMV in his lifetime. This is actually part of the Blue Pill, feminine-correct plan for maintaining an optimal Hypergamy (or at least the impression of it) for women.

I’ve mentioned countless times on this blog that men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38 depending upon how well he’s established himself in a variety of ways that contribute to it. As Red Pill awareness grows I (hopefully) expect more men will be able to capitalize on their moment of clarity as well as use this peak moment to enjoy and choose what’s best for themselves and their futures with regards to women. When men reach this peak it is generally a point at which women are also at their most necessitous (i.e. the Epiphany Phase). This simple matter of logistics also contributes to that man’s peak SMV in the form of making his commitment a valued commodity – presuming he’s built himself into that peak in the years prior to it.

My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so threatening that it causes dread in his wife. I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife, and particularly if, up until this phase, she’s firmly dictated the Frame of their relationship since marriage.

I should add that this advice isn’t meant as some form of punishment or a big ‘get even’ with a man’s wife, but rather, a man pressing his SMV advantage at this point, to the point of instilling dread, will form a more solid attachment with his dominant Frame being the primary one – which is something his wife has likely craved for their marriage since the outset.

What YaReally (probably inadvertently) is revealing here is that women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction.

Feminine-primary social conventions build this into a man’s Blue Pill conditioning so he believes that a marriage “always requires a lot of work” before and after he’s been married. This is why Athol’s Blue Pill advice of not overdoing the Alpha is so in error; it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.

Pop culture likes to call this effect “wife goggles”, but that’s a euphemism for how feminine-primary social conventions have conditioned men to feel a need to pander to their wife’s insecurity. In doing so they self-defeat any positive effect that this natural dread would benefit him and his relationship with his wife. If a man makes a conscious choice to limit himself in the phase of his life where he can best capitalize on his peak SMV this lifts the burden of a woman being the focus of him having to do so to make her feel secure.

And all of this has been about married men; feminine-primary social conventions have a whole set of social dictates intended to get a single man in this phase of life to willfully limit his own options. This is why we get shaming tactics and presumptions of ego-centrism for men in this demographic. This is why they’re called commit-o-phobes; because the hope is that these men will feel some measure of inappropriateness about their natural sexual impulses and choose an older women as a choice of mate. A woman who, again, is at her most necessitous and insecure about her future in the SMP or her long term prospectives.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Not semantics though. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s semantics. Why not investigate how an action results? You know it is a process right?

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Why people are going into an emotional spiral (not me) is because of cognitive dissonance… worth investigating as well…

SFC Ton
9 years ago

How do you handle the inevitable questioning once you meet up in person?

How do you think I am?

Their reply is their upper limit so just say close enough, wink and keep rolling.

By and large they don’t care unless yourban frame starts sagging

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

“Why not investigate how an action results?”

I’m not disagreeing with you. You say the action needs context to label something alpha or beta. Scray says that objectively without context somethings are alpha and some things are beta. Seems like semantics to me. Why would anyone care?

Chump No More
Chump No More
9 years ago

@AR “I’ve told this story before, it bears retelling.” It’s a good story, a bit too close to home for me. Pretty much lived it, down to the ex now living alone in an empty house wondering ‘wtf’, except for her doing the stepping out. @SJF’s comments is particularly apropos and sums it up fairly well for me… “When it comes to Red Pill discussion, the Old Guys are likely to refer to statements about ideas (as in Rollo’s non-prescriptive ideas). Because they have dealt with the hard truths for decades. They have more fully proved experiences (statements of the… Read more »

SFC Ton
9 years ago

Thanks HABD!

I’m stateside full-time these days. Given women and bikes more of a chance to kill me vs hajjis, juans and skinnies

lol I shot my share of deer and dogs as a kid but I still expected men to go down like in the movies.

Personally, there has always been a lag between when getting hit vs realizing it. I was surprised as shit the 1st time. Dudes still bust my chops over that one

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

I am 52 and am mainly here because yareally hangs out here. I would be glad to be in an intact marriage like the OMG crew but that did not happen. Almost nobody I knew had a good marriage. There was one alpha dude I knew who did but mainly it just drags you down. Nobody I knew ever alpha-ed up and turned shit around. I am sure it happens, but I would like to see some videos or something. I am not real sure the game stuff will work out for me. It is mainly just making me more… Read more »

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

I like advice of the form “do x then y will happen” (or even do x and see what happens) where x is something that is clearly do-able.

I did it for diet and exercise and game at least promises the same thing.

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

“Why people are going into an emotional spiral (not me) is because of cognitive dissonance”

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_14J2dEsfIG0/TPM9ZW1Z9BI/AAAAAAAAEeE/pptaQ7NeNfk/s1600/Family%2BCircus%2B11-28-10.gif

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
9 years ago

What I forgot:

Me: I thrilled you feel happy about our direction. Years ago I put both feet on the gas and kept faith.

Her: Yeah, I know you did. I remember. I liked the sex…but I put both feet on the brake. Now my feet are off. What would happen if I put my feet on yours?

Me: This is something new. Are you ready?

Her: Yes.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

adsgamer Of course, she cheated on him a first time, second time, 3rd time, etc. when she played hide the vaj. “To have and to hold” implies not playing hide the vaj. Agreed. Basically that whole, long, drawn out drama was a soft Next followed by a hard Next when you look at it from 30,000 feet in Game terms. The world would be a better place if that were made explicit before Her Day, too. Even better to write it into vows….heh. You can get a pretty good argument going in various parts of the web with that simple… Read more »

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

“I’ll be sure to save this quote for the next time I get accused of disheartening PUA noobs for making them aware of their objective realities.”

Looks don’t matter IS the objective reality.

Can you marry a chick and still be relatively alpha? Yes. Nobody every said otherwise. Is marriage itself a beta action? Depends on the semantics imo… There’s a good argument for calling it beta.

Does that bother you? <- this is the real story here. Not whether it's beta or not. It's if calling it beta bothers you for some reason.

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  Andy

@Andy, so just trust the process, right?

Mindset makes no difference in objective reality, so it doesn’t matter whether you change your mind about yourself or maintain your own self image so long as the process matches the objective reality?

A+B=C irrespective of what your self image is?

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

” bothers ” is a poor descriptor in this instance.

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Andy – still not semantics, because the process of how an action is developed and executed informs the “subjective” observation and labeling.

You to girl: “You’re hot.”

How that is perceived subjectively is the reality, and this valuation is rooted in the process you went through to take that action…

rugby11
rugby11
9 years ago
key
key
9 years ago

ugh, pls rollo, no banning scray’s dealing with some unknown unknowns, but has developed his known knowns tremendously and is trying to engage in discussion as others have opined, I think it’s mostly semantics in responses to this post, but enjoy YaReally, scray and the YSGs are critical contributors here even if, and maybe because of, the age and life experience gap the “OMGs” (love that term) are impossible to shame, so there’s no point in trying or responding don’t always agree with Sentient, but found this gem insightful and worthy of further discussion in another post perhaps: “provision or… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  key

@key, no one’s getting banned.

And as far as doxxing goes, the only time I’ve ever been doxxed was courtesy of a few guys on the RVF when I was locking horns with Roosh during his “transformation” days.

You’d be surprised how quickly allies turn to enemies when you disillusion them. That’s when they’ll gleefully turn the same weapons that SJWs use on you.

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

And ” semantics” is also inaccurate.

There are 2 opposing views that were in discussion.

It’s not about being bothered, but about the idea behind the original statement being put forth.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

sfer I like advice of the form “do x then y will happen” (or even do x and see what happens) where x is something that is clearly do-able. Well, sure, that’s how men are, and it’s what sets Game apart from all the fluffy stuff that gets pushed as “relationship advice”, from choreplay to “rub her feet” to “always listen” and on and on and on. That stuff fails, but it fails in various ways, and usually it takes time to fail. Although if a man tried to rub his wife’s feet at the wrong time / wrong way,… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
9 years ago

From the blog post: “I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife”

Huzzah!

Agent P
Agent P
9 years ago

I took my marriage vows pretty damn seriously, as they are a preamble to a marriage contract. When in my BP days my wife arbitrarily and unilaterally retroactively renegotiated the marriage contract and failed to advise me of the new terms it was a serious problem. Hide the vag was part of it. When I finally woke up to the fact that she was hamstering away at it and had done that contract modification, that’s when I took it upon myself to do the same, rewrite the whole thing according to new terms that were more favorable to me. For… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Chump No More I put a promising career and a dream job on hold so that my ex could advance hers. Yup, all the beta covert contracts and investments in egalitarian relational equity abounded. This probably will become more common. More women will be working at higher paying jobs than their men, because of the FI, Millennial men really need to know how to manage such women. The “Captain / First Officer” model that Athol used to endorse needs modification for “woman earns more” and especially “woman earns a lot more” situations. It can be done. No longer… I now… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

Look at it from any perspective, you need Game, I need Game, all men need Game.

Yes, it’s universal. And not just about, or even primarily about, girls. It’s about life.

Chump No More
Chump No More
9 years ago

“Mindset is not objective reality”

I think we found our disconnect.

rugby11
rugby11
9 years ago
Reply to  Chump No More
IAS
IAS
9 years ago

@Rollo: indeed! I try not to be surprised in the same way next time.

Andy
Andy
9 years ago
Agent P
Agent P
9 years ago

In light of the ongoing YSG / OMG debate, I wanted to speak to one issue that has not gotten any air time here. The idea of relationship resilience. It has been my experience that after quite some time, particularly under RP rule in a marriage, that the marriage, if it is kept healthy is a great well of resilience for all parties in the family. There are times when you are putting in more than you are getting out but there are also times when you are getting more out then you are putting in. You can arrive at… Read more »

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

And, hurray for Rollo having a forum that isn’t racist or anti-Semitic. I hate that shit.

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

Lol at last sentence…..

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

@Agent P

That can happen. I was definitely very happy to be married until I wasn’t. I guess a lot depends on who you are when you let your guard down.

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

@AR Best plan I have to offer such men is to run as much Game as they can, get her into different environments, preferably similar to places with good memories, stay positive. If she’s attracted again, he can try to find some aspect of her that’s still worth his effort. In the dark all cats are grey anyway. stay positive = recognize her ‘negativity’ as the shit test it is… based on your premise of no divorce (and i assume no cheating…) that IS the best plan… IF he is going to be able to turn it around, HE is… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
9 years ago

YaReally Sentient HABD Walawala Scray Hank Forge @PUA Another quick Lay Report guys – 18 year old HB6 with some interesting elements.. Sorry have been insanely busy between work (I work a lot more when in Small Town) and Game stuff – not read through comments to see any responses to me from previous Lay Report – will catch up soon. Wanted to post this while still fresh. It’s actually a double Tinder date FR/LR – I had them scheduled at two hour intervals (suddenly I seem to be having a lot more success in Small Town on Tinder –… Read more »

forgetheskies@gmail.com
forgetheskies@gmail.com
9 years ago

@SJF “Restated: When it comes game, PUA’s are likely to refer to statements about the world (i.e. the field, or their field). When it comes to the larger theater, PUA’s resort to statements about ideas (witness YaReally and abstract theorizing about raising children in his paradigm)” Interesting idea. Though I’d note that the main issue here seems to be defining alpha/beta in the context of attraction, or in the context of broader social dominance. With a bit of picking at the edges, just to confuse things, about how the origin of behaviors lies in mindset. Seeing alpha/beta as PUA tech… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Culum Now you are a boss… Nice! So you got this… Lead… Be you. Full circle man. so nice… <Man I just want to bottle that feeling… the feeling of just Being In Charge, and doing what I want and getting her to do what I want – not *forcing* her – just guiding her, KNOWING she’ll follow – like she’s *mine*, and of course she’s gonna follow my lead so I’m going to use her for my purposes while being aware and cognizant of her needs Bottle that Feeling indeed… this is it. MIndset. and No ego! And going… Read more »

key
key
9 years ago

knew it, rollo, just hate to hear it suggested

agent p – great stuff, not sure when you started commenting – assume longtime reader at RM and other rp sites, great contributions to the omg contingent here

very interesting to read of radical corrective action in your marriage – hope any guilt was minimal – had to be done and sounds like it worked

finally, just read the end comments of the last post – represents the best of RM-driven conversation and positive masculinity

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Culum

Oh Yeah… remember you can do the same stuff with girls just walking up to them too, on a random Tuesday night… and same time frame [short!]. don’t think it is just a tinder thing. no no no no

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
9 years ago

@Hank

Thanks for compiling your FR links, that’s helpful. I’m meaning to get to those but haven’t even had a chance to write my own FR’s yet lol.

@Culum

rock on.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
9 years ago

@kfg

“Q: What is a PUA?
A: Someone who know more and more about picking up girls and less and less about people.

I do not say that as a pejorative, but as a warning.”

All part of a balanced diet.

Though I’d appreciate being let know if I’m wrong. Kellogg rather soured me on the ‘part of this complete breakfast!’ rhetoric.

Damn cornflakes didn’t even keep me from whacking it, much less provide nourishment….

Agent P
Agent P
9 years ago

@Culum.

Bravo, fuckin bravo!

Respect

Agent P
Agent P
9 years ago

@key
She’ll get over her guilt eventually…

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
9 years ago

@ culum

“I pushed her up hard against a kind of recessed shop alcove and went for it…”

The bold win.

Cool.

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

@ Culum

Man, good shit!!!!!!!!!

Kudos!!!

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

h a b d Sorry, but you keep answering a different question. We all have our own version of “how to generate her attraction, that’s not the issue. The issue is – he doesn’t find her all that anymore. Suppose a man does all the work, gets compliance, she’s attracted to him again. But for whatever reason, he does not find her attractive any more Maybe he was betaized for years, and her shit testing wen too far, crossed some of his “not ever!” lines, maybe she physically let herself go way too much.. whatever. His “wife goggles” are broken..… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

like a f*kin moth to a flame…lol @Rollo if this is a rhetorical question, just to get this concept out on the table, then i apologize, but i’ll treat it like you really don’t know… @Mr. T, good analysis of the process, but it doesn’t address my question, where does that x-factor that can convert Beta subcoms (in this case provisioning) into Alpha perceptions in a woman come from? beta subcomms NEVER convert to alpha perceptions… what happens is that the actual subcomm cues change from beta to alpha… and bc girls are constantly pinging off their environment, they just… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

sfer I am not real sure the game stuff will work out for me. It is mainly just making me more social now- which is a pretty great failure mode. It will work out for you as much as you want it to work out. Seriously. You don’t have to have a rabbit’s foot or a lucky charm, you don’t even have to believe in Game for it to work to some extent. Just because Forge and I were sidetracked on pain issues the other day… In a way it’s like the myofascial trigger point – pain connection: old school… Read more »

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“… so ANY action the guy takes wrt HER is going to be interpreted through HER lens…”

Enter Skittles Man, stage alpha.

rugby11
rugby11
9 years ago
Reply to  kfg
Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

that mindset shift IS necessary and the principal element to having the subcomms you need to get a girl aroused… done!…lol… Apparently there’s some disagreement about this in the PUA set, since ‘objective reality’ trumps mindset. I’m not arguing against the idea of certain behavioral sets being interpreted as Alpha or Beta, what I’m not getting is the disconnect between isolated behaviors and the mindset that prompts them. If looks don’t matter, and your objective reality is that you’re 300lbs and 60% bodyfat, then so long as you follow the process, irrespective of mindset, you’re going to get laid more… Read more »

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

I did obtain a copy of that Julien tengame product. It is very appealing and watchable. Lots of emphasis on giving value and putting a positive spin on things.

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

@Culum Few notes Notice this most recent LR is coming just after your previous one, and that you set up a double date… Now imagine being in a club, and doing the same thing…not being going for one girl, but several. Bounce between them all. Good work an all, but here again, you’re still using the online crutch. This isn’t terrible…except the last blitz you had precisely 800 billion opportunities like this that you let slide. You could have had something very similar to these LRs back then. Those you let drop…but you don’t when you do online stuff. Go… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

@forge

Thanks for compiling your FR links, that’s helpful. I’m meaning to get to those but haven’t even had a chance to write my own FR’s yet lol

np

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo Apparently there’s some disagreement about this in the PUA set, since ‘objective reality’ trumps mindset. yes objective reality does trump mindset. that’s why you can’t fly using your arms, no matter how hard you flap them and believe. and no, there really isn’t disagreement in the PUA set. we all know what one another is talking about lol. so then let’s turn to objective reality. welp…there are behaviors that are beta. there are behaviors that are alpha. to gain desire/attraction, you must engage in alpha behaviors to some degree. what can help you do this? oh, right. a mindset.… Read more »

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

The PUA guys repeatedly state that looks don’t matter. I find that hard to believe, but they express it in terms of life history like “I was better at pickup when I was fat than when I was thin”. So, maybe?

You should certainly maximize what you can maximize.

I have known guys with natural game who were short and they have done great with women.

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

@AR Sorry, but you keep answering a different question. We all have our own version of “how to generate her attraction, that’s not the issue. The issue is – he doesn’t find her all that anymore. Suppose a man does all the work, gets compliance, she’s attracted to him again. But for whatever reason, he does not find her attractive any more Maybe he was betaized for years, and her shit testing wen too far, crossed some of his “not ever!” lines, maybe she physically let herself go way too much.. whatever. His “wife goggles” are broken.. She looks like… Read more »

Agent P
Agent P
9 years ago

game:

any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic

game = technology.

techno / techne (greek) = craft or art

logia (Greek) = denoting a subject of study or interest (Arthur C Clarke)

Subject of study + craft or art = magic = Game (To those who know not what they are seeing, e.g. improbable seduction)

game = magic

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
9 years ago

Abra Cadabra!

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

@Scray, if process is all that matters, inner Game become irrelevant. Fake it till you make it is pointless – it doesn’t matter if you “make it” so long as you adhere to process accurately. I realize it becomes circular eventually, because the confidence that successfully faking it instills in a guy will hopefully change his mindset, but we call Beta men ‘Betas’ because the mindset they’ve been conditioned to by Blue Pill social influence predisposes them to a behavior set that’s largely interpreted as ‘Beta’ by women. This predominance of behavior then defines their status as a male in… Read more »

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo inner Game become irrelevant. Fake it till you make it is pointless – it doesn’t matter if you “make it” so long as you adhere to process accurately. making it = “adhere to process accurately” = acting with sufficient mix of alpha traits to attract women mindset does not convert beta traits into alpha traits. it may make someone adopt more alpha traits, though. like lol inner game is relevant and obviously so. fake it til you make it = hey, you don’t have the inner game part down so just focus on RIGHT ACTION first. idk how much… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

@Rollo Apparently there’s some disagreement about this in the PUA set, since ‘objective reality’ trumps mindset. I’m not arguing against the idea of certain behavioral sets being interpreted as Alpha or Beta, what I’m not getting is the disconnect between isolated behaviors and the mindset that prompts them. i could argue that mindset can trump ‘objective reality’… but that really doesn’t work bc ‘objective reality’ is what you see in the world… it’s based on mindset… bc ‘mindset’ is upstream from the outer expression of that mindset… behaviors are never isolated from mindset (whether that’s a natural one, or one… Read more »

YaReally
9 years ago

lol no idea what’s happening in this thread, I’m too busy to read it all but banning scray wtf? I haven’t read what he said but I agree with everything in this last post by him: https://therationalmale.com/2016/10/31/smv-and-the-aging-process/comment-page-6/#comment-176946 That’s all dead-on. @Rollo “if process is all that matters, inner Game become irrelevant. Fake it till you make it is pointless – it doesn’t matter if you “make it” so long as you adhere to process accurately.” Correct. You don’t have to actually “make it”, you can get laid a bunch by simply following the process/routines. That’s how most PUAs get laid… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

Mindset is great, and a guy should definitely handle it long-term. But it’s technically not necessary.

Someone needs to pass this on to Mike Cernovich.

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

I’m pua adherent or practicioner…or expert… or w/e, so everyone more versed in the arts please correct/explain this to me, like I was 5 years old. I was under the impression that ” Fake it till you make it, referred to developing one’s mindset ( more alpha in this case ) as the ” it ” in the equation, no? I mean, I get that In The Beginning, if a guy is learning and gaining experience, he might just need some kind of process to follow, but is this process the final answer? Always follow the process ad infinitum? Does… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

Shit. Above should read ” I’m nopua adherent or practicioner….”

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

@Scray Rollo Your behavior can change your mindset. Your mindset can change your behavior. Mindset just makes executing a certain set of behaviors easier. But once again, there are living examples of dudes who have SHITTY mindsets, who nevertheless, EXECUTE alpha traits in sufficient proportion to be attractive to women. maybe it’s hard internally on them….and maybe it’d be better from a mental health standpoint if they had a better mindset, but wrt to achieving so-called “alpha” results — they get those results, they get the spoils. they. are. i want to hit this before somebody weighs in with…but, but,… Read more »

YaReally
9 years ago

@scray “fake it til you make it = hey, you don’t have the inner game part down so just focus on RIGHT ACTION first.” This. When a guy is starting out, like take a scray when he started out, or scribblerg when he was first recovering from his divorce, or culum when he was first trying to get away from his sugarbaby thing, or hank when he was starting out. These guys have shitty internals and weak externals initially (even if in scribblerg’s case they had good ones in a past life). So we encourage them to learn the externals… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

HABD, exactly, mindset is ‘upstream’ from process. What I think Ya and Scray are saying is again, “Mindset is great, and a guy should definitely handle it long-term. But it’s technically not necessary.” However, it must be necessary to some degree if that mindset is upstream from and influences process. Take a guy who has endured a traumatic enough experience (PTSD) to the point that it fundamental alters his personality, that guy is going to act differently than how he did before his mindset was changed. I think this is applicable for a lot of different experiences, but I believe… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

@Ya, just so we’re tracking here (and I don’t disagree with anything you’ve stated BTW), but mindset must factor in to a guy’s process as well as his improving his life if changing his mindset is results from changing his process (Game in this instance).

If that’s so, is it fair to assume that a man changing his mindset (or having it alter by some experience) would have a more positive or negative influence on his process.

I’m not trying to be difficult here, I’m building a new post on this.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo but mindset must factor in to a guy’s process as well as his improving his life if changing his mindset is results from changing his process no one argued otherwise If that’s so, is it fair to assume that a man changing his mindset (or having it alter by some experience) would have a more positive or negative influence on his process. ditto so…..i mean, i seriously don’t know what’s getting lost in translation/communication/whatever. “making it = “adhere to process accurately” = acting with sufficient mix of alpha traits to attract women mindset does not convert beta traits into… Read more »

walawala
walawala
9 years ago

@Disgruntled: “” How do you handle the inevitable questioning once you meet up in person?”” They don’t ask my age when they meet me. When they do I pull the “I’m young, be gentle…” “I always go for older women…” routine. It’s rarely a problem. The fact is they tell me they prefer “older guys” and can’t believe my age based on my looks because most guys in their late 40’s aren’t in my kind of shape. @Culum Juggling 3 girls in one night…You’re now on your way to becoming that confident PUA you have been striving for. Gradually transition… Read more »

YaReally
9 years ago

@having a bad day @Rollo “except, see above… you being 300lbs only has meaning if you give it meaning… (and social conditioning says ‘the fat guy is a loser’… but your mindset CAN say ‘the fat guy is awesome’…)… mindset informs subcomms” This is where experience teaching newbies comes into play. The reality is there is NO WAY I can convince a 300lbs fat guy that he should feel like girls will be attracted to him. I can show him a dozen fat guys getting laid and he’ll find reasons (beard, clothes, lifestyle, etc) that those guys can do it… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

So, with that in mind, is it still accurate to characterize a guy’s persona as “Alpha” or “Beta” (abstract terms) if his mindset predisposes him to default to those behaviors? I’m beginning to see the need to separate “Alpha” in terms of mindset, from “Alpha” in terms of process and behaviors. This is one reason I’ve never really adopted Vox Day’s social hierarchy terminology, because a Gamma or a Delta by his reckoning can still fake process well enough to be perceived as having an Alpha mindset – presuming they apply themselves. Thus, I’ve always stuck to distilling things down… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

@ YaReally ” Philosophically, yes. Executionally(?), no. It technically just means “make it” like, reach unconscious competence with that alpha behavior so that you execute it naturally. BUT, from a philosophical point, yes, you’re faking it until you develop the mindsets that help you execute it naturally.” ” There’s never a FINAL answer. This is a life-long path of self-development and growth. But you can get laid just by following Mystery Method to the letter. But if you don’t work on your internals too, you’ll end up fucked up even if you’re getting laid.” Ok, I get this much. Thanks… Read more »

YaReally
9 years ago

This also all goes back to why we make guys break out of their comfort zones and handicap themselves infield when they get some of the externals down. Like if I’m helping you, then as soon as you start to love wearing that lucky nicely ironed dress shirt of yours, I’m gonna make you wear a shitty shirt that you think looks horrible. As soon as you get a bunch of good results with your hair combed perfectly, I’m gonna make you go out with it looking fucked up. As soon as you get a bunch of good results on… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

@yareally

did a bunch this past halloween weekend, went out all four days:

https://therationalmale.com/2016/10/31/smv-and-the-aging-process/comment-page-4/#comment-176635

Plan to go out this sat/sun, would appreciate your feedback. went out w/o costume like you said, was the only person out of costume on sat and mon at both costume parties I went to.

YaReally
9 years ago

@Rollo “So, with that in mind, is it still accurate to characterize a guy’s persona as “Alpha” or “Beta” (abstract terms) if his mindset predisposes him to default to those behaviors?” I don’t really label them as that because our identities are fluid. I’ve seen “Alpha” guys who when they were single and on the prowl with me were as alpha as can BE…but I’ve seen them enter relationships and follow the blue pill script and that same guy ends up “Beta” as fuck because he’s started taking a bunch of Beta actions. It’s his actions that are Alpha/Beta more… Read more »

YaReally
9 years ago

Also: “And that’s OKAY, technically. You can get laid with those crutches, just like situational confidence isn’t a BAD thing, as long as you’re IN that environment where you have that confidence. It’s just limiting yourself and not optimal in the long-run…you develop an overall better internal frame if you try to remove your crutches whenever you sense them building.” This is also why a lot of Naturals turn into chodes in relationships. Because they based their internals/confidence on their results when they were young and handsome and in their prime slaying pussy left and right, like scribblerg did. Because… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

@Ya, I get that you stress practice makes possible, but what Scray was arguing is that mindset has no effect on converting a Beta perceived behavior to an Alpha perceived behavior. But you just said that, with lots of practice and a new mindset that results from that practice, you CAN convert a Beta perception of behavior (or some subcom handicap visual cue) into an Alpha perception as a result of that practice-created mindset. In fact, your example of the cup and the ball training reinforces that if a guy has a self-belief of his own attractiveness and he applies… Read more »

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo , but what Scray was arguing is that mindset has no effect on converting a Beta perceived behavior to an Alpha perceived behavior. buying a girl flowers and drinks and whatever else = beta. Brad Pitt can do this and the girl still thinks he is alpha overall Brad Pitt did not change beta traits into alpha traits. Similarly, having an awesome mindset will result in a ton of extra alpha traits that will boost the overall impression a woman has of you. but it isn’t going to change beta traits into alpha traits. we’re not alchemists. we’re puas.… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

@yareally thanks, monday (holloween) is the best, but read all of them if you have the time. I made major dhvs from friday and saturday, so you won’t really understand them if you don’t read those FRs. Culum has also made some serious progress…two LRs in as many days…tho he’s still falling back on his online crutch (tho he’s in his small town so is understandable). Check out his LRs as well if you have the time…I know he’s been on the verge of major progress, he’s just not been escalating on IOIs he gets in the clubs (like on… Read more »

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

@Anonymous Reader I had half an ear out for your questions regarding the locked in man that is Blue Pill and for whatever reasons doesn’t want to divorce or have an affair on the side. I don’t think the premise is really fair on a red pill blog with a flair towards game. It doesn’t make any sense for the guy to not have any Real Power and ability to control his circumstances and the outcome of his life. (Through Red Pill Awareness and Game.) (And pardon me if I’m wrong, but is this not Andy’s existential crisis of late?)… Read more »

Luciano
9 years ago

@All

You can think (mindset) that you’re a king but if your behavior is beta around women you wont get laid.

You can be a miserable suicidal wreck but if your alpha around women you will get laid.

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Wow lot’s of new terms and totally different things being thrown around in a big pot… I am glad to see Yareally and Rollo and I are on the same page… Scray is still on the other side. Yareally “And I’m still not convinced that Beta behavior (or maybe I should say Beta impression associated with that behavior?) can’t be converted to a net positive (Alpha) impression with the right mindset or panache applied to it.” Sure, that’s that Julien video I always link where he talks about just believing whatever you have is awesome and the girl will “feel… Read more »

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient no rollo is unknowingly on my and the PUA side. And I’m still not convinced that Beta behavior (or maybe I should say Beta impression associated with that behavior?) can’t be converted to a net positive (Alpha) impression with the right mindset or panache applied to it. 🙂 once again: “Brad Pitt can do this and the girl still thinks he is alpha overall Brad Pitt did not change beta traits into alpha traits.” rollo just doesn’t seem to be making the distinction as of yet….but the language he’s used when posing the questions is about the overall impression,… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray you can say it is beta all you want… if it appears as alpha to her… it’s alpha…

Which is why you have such a vast difference among guys with respect to their self worth, confidence, mindsets, physical condition, etc… all can appear Alpha to the arbiter if they convey the DPA traits…

Beta = fear. Not stuff.

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

@sentient When you view how the arbiter views things, it will make sense… and Brad Pitt’s flowers will be Alpha as Fuck to her… Alpha Provider well, I still feel buying a girl something is inherently beta…its just that brad pitt is so far above most girls that tanking his value at tad still leaves him miles above most girls. plus, he’d be doing it in more of a ZFG manner which would make it less beta and more alpha… but i still don’t think that would get the same reaction from a girl as if he had made her… Read more »

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

@Rollo “Objectively, Alpha is Alpha, Beta is Beta, but if the Game becomes all about you and your mastery of it, then can Beta cues subjectively take on an Alpha appeal as a result of that mastery?” One of the things that I’ve noticed in my red pill, LTR game experiences is the mindset that I have now (because of Mastery in game) and the mindset I had just 3, 2, and 1 years ago is totally a different thing. It was the mindset practice that had to ride shotgun with mastery, then the mastery developed, and then the feedback… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

also calling a brexit for trump…he’ll come in with a surprise win been talking to a lot of people…finding all these low key trump supporters…lots of blacks so you’ve got all the poll manipulation (where they survey 900 democrats vs 400 republicans…ofc hillary will be ahead) plus the secret supporters (esp amongst minorities) I think trump is gonna carry solidly. just had a deep as fuck convo with a new guy at a place I stop by, plus a super sexual convo with a milf that stops by (no escalation for me, know her husband and he’s a cool dude,… Read more »

mersonia
9 years ago

@Sentient
“versus reducing Alpha down to the irreducible elements of “what is Alpha?” and that is the DPA Triad [dynamic, passionate and authentic]…”

You still don’t understand that….. most beta’s are authentic dynamic and passionate but just stuck in blue pill conditioning and …those 3 character traits don’t make them alpha. ask SJF I doubt he was a emotionless drone when he was doing the wrong things that society displays as the correct ones.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

@Mersonia:

It isn’t the Pick Any Two game.

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

Lol… @ my man hank- ” been talking to a lot of people…finding all these low key trump supporters…lots of blacks” Oh Hell nah brother. Not even happening in any significant numbers. Nevaaaaa….lol. Not to go too political, but I’ll let you in on something. There’s trouble afoot in Dem-land. Teh ” blacks ” are not committing to Hellery in the vast numbers that the DNC just magically assumed would happen. The early voting numbers are looking weak sauce compared to 2004 and 2012. Most of ” us ” do not like nor trust Hillary at all. She is shady… Read more »

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

@Mersonia I actually wasn’t a blue pill conditioned guy much ever. I was Betatized in the fog of war after ten years of marriage by a high self esteem, very high SMV wife with a lot of heavy provisioning for our children during the ages of 6, 8 to 16,18 years of age. (Betatized= put to work for her benefit) I repeat, I wasn’t blue pill but was Betatized. In other words, I didn’t compromise my purpose and mission in life to my wife much at all, while still provisioning her and the children within the relationship. (Outside on my… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Hi Mersonia!

http://cdnimg.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/collection-of-cute-baby-duck.jpg

Beta = fear … so this negates all else… see?

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Mersonia

Oh yeah “quack… quack!”

Blaximus
Blaximus
9 years ago

Well, I give up.

YaReally’s explanations made a whole lot of sense though.

I’m still a yuuugggeeee proponent of mindset, and I guess that will never change.

As far as ” alpha ” goes, it is a mindset….

Beta is a mindset too, that depends on doing shit for all of the wrong reasons ( social conditioning, not understanding female nature, scarcity, etc..)

For me it’s still mindset and motivation that makes the distinction.

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

“Beta = fear” Yes. I’ve been there and done that. I can also attest to having fear when swallowing down the red pill, quick to Acceptance of it, re-arranging the dynamite three years ago. The first year of red pill and all in MRP game was laughable. I thought: “I got this.” But it was a conscious incompetence delusion. I’m actually a bit reticent about talking to new guys or making new guy friends these days because of a couple guys IRL trying to make a red pill conversion that had the dynamite blow up in their face. They forced… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

@Rollo HABD, exactly, mindset is ‘upstream’ from process. What I think Ya and Scray are saying is again, “Mindset is great, and a guy should definitely handle it long-term. But it’s technically not necessary.” we don’t really disagree though…lol… i just have a quibble with the concept of ‘mindset’… they’re saying that you don’t NEED to have any particular mindset… and you can STILL get your dick wet… you just have to display the external cues that indicate that you have the ‘proper’ mindset (sexually successful mindset)… not actually have the mindset… = fake it til you make it… (note… Read more »

mersonia
9 years ago


“I repeat, I wasn’t blue pill but was Betatized. In other words, I didn’t compromise my purpose and
mission in life to my wife much at all, while still provisioning her and the children within the relationship. (Outside on my own independently, when alone in my hobby pursuits, yeah, I was DPA, but within the relationship I was lifeless and had less than adequate Alpha”

Your old…I doubt you went into the relationship for the first few years an emotionless drone

mersonia
9 years ago

@sentient

comment image

othergrain
othergrain
9 years ago

“you can say it is beta all you want… if it appears as alpha to her… it’s alpha…” And buying her a drink would not appear alpha to her. She would see a very high value man doing something beta. Now a (former) Brad Pitt would have to do a heck of a lot of beta to overcome that initial, assumed high value, and she’d probably overlook (or more likely not notice) that one instance since it’s like taking a cup of water out of a pool. Now, Brad Pitt gets down on both knees and with all his heart… Read more »

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

Yeah, Mersonia “I doubt you went into the relationship for the first few years an emotionless drone.” That is 100% correct. But irrelevant to the discussion. Natural Game doesn’t actually count in the process of learning applied game. And we are not talking about Apex Fallacy here. LTR successful game is rare. I was at an Apex in 1988. On fire in the DPA department. And that was very attractive. I lucked into game and had high SMV and super high MMV. We are talking about learning red pill awareness. And digging out of a hole. (Whether the YaReally at… Read more »

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