SMV and the Aging Process

aging_process

A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:

I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD.

I just don’t get it. There are plenty of women closer to their ages and single, but yet they all go for the young women. I feel kind of sad for women entering the dating market, at least where I’m from because it seems women my age have no hope in competing with these younger, perkier women.

Just a rant I suppose. I don’t have anything against younger women of course, but I can’t help but feel a bit unnerved by the trend I see here.

This is an overt observation of what women understand from a very early age – women’s sexual marketability declines with age, while men’s (should) increases as they age. This woman’s concerns should come as no shock to any Red Pill aware man. It’s the clarion call of a woman who’s aging out of the SMP and on the tail end of her Epiphany Phase.

All women have conditions (prerequisites) for men in order for them to become intimate (sexual) with them; he’s got to be good looking, he’s got to be financially stable (surplus resources), he’s got to have some status, respectability, ambition, be confident, he has to be the initiator, he’s has to be decisive, he has to make an emotional connection with her, he’s got have ‘provider’ potential,..etc., etc. And the list goes on and on for any individual woman and according to her ability (i.e. looks) to demand each condition. Each of these personal conditions for intimacy is set in a priority order depending on her ability to demand them and this demand is mediated by her age relative to her attractiveness to men.

It’s no secret that a woman’s sexual marketability declines as she ages and men’s increases as he ages. As a woman ages she progressively loses her ability to physically attract a mate (his one condition for intimacy), thus her conditions and their priority order shift accordingly because she is forced to compete with younger, more attractive women for the same pool of eligible men.

These men tend to be the ones best able to provide for her long term security and any resulting offspring. Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy, in their existing priority order, the more suitable he becomes for that intimacy and the harder she will compete with other women to achieve his long term commitment.

Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. While pre-menopausal women do in fact experience a spike in their testosterone levels and a resulting sex drive increase prior to the last of their eggs dropping, it is women between the ages of 18 and 26 that are in fact in their prime fertility stages. Women’s bodies in this age range are far better prepared for the rigors of pregnancy. At no other phase in her life is she more sexually active and most capable of commanding the attentions of the best male meeting her conditional criteria and in their most strict order. However these conditions are still mediated by her physical attractiveness – thus, if she’s fat her conditions (and their priority) will be adjusted accordingly – but she is nonetheless at her personal prime in this phase.

Unsurprisingly we see in most cultures older males striving for the attentions of the younger and more attractive females, but in western culture he becomes vilified and shamed for this – or at least that’s what western feminized women would like to be the case. The most common complaint women in their mid-thirties bemoan is that “There’s no good men” or they can’t understand why men just can’t “grow up” and find them more attractive than the young women they used to be themselves.

Increasingly, ‘careerist women’ desiring to finally start a family at age 35 find that men – particularly the ones that meet their conditions – in their age range (33-38) are not interested in women (to say nothing of ‘careerist women’) of their own age range. They’re interested in the 22 year olds who wouldn’t give them the time of day when they didn’t have the status (or maturity) that they’ve just discovered they now have. And of course the 35 year old career woman was one of these 22 year old girls, only 13 years prior, who was doing precisely the same thing the 22 year old girls are doing today.

But that doesn’t stop 30 something women from complaining about how men their age are ‘infantile’ for wanting to breed with ‘little girls’, rather than mature, intelligent, respectable career women such as themselves. They are incapable of conceiving why men ‘wont live up to their responsibilities’ and commit to a lifetime with them. They write article after article about how men are in fact threatened by their ‘successfulness’ or their ‘status’, when the simple fact remains that his breeding choices are dictated by one single condition – she’s got to be hot. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. The mid-thirties woman is (with a few notable exceptions) simply not as attractive as younger women.

So as an unspoken reaction to this predicament we get to see the popularity of the idea that “You can be 40 and still ‘have it'” among women. “Those men and their fragile egos just don’t know what they’re missing. How dare they be aroused by, and date younger more attractive women, we’ll show them”, they’d have them believe and pander to this dynamic while encouraging the fallacy that ‘men ought to be ashamed of their sexual impulse.

And finally we encounter the 40+ woman looking for what she couldn’t get in her 30s. Her priorities and conditions for intimacy have been altered radically now. At 40, the career woman has abandoned the idea of long term commitment; she may make up some sort of internalized blame for men not accepting her, but the truth comes that time has or is running out.

Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them.

They’re virile, young, dumb and full of cum. That’ll show those immature older men who don’t know how to commit! She’ll beat ’em at their own game. “Look at what I’ve got! A hot guy (relative, actually) who knows how to pleasure an older woman”; again shaming and insinuating older men’s sexual performance isn’t up to ‘women’s standards’. All conditions for intimacy and the priority orders she had before are out the window with the exception of physical attractiveness now, which, interestingly enough, has been a man’s only condition since he hit puberty. She’s come full circle, only now she makes an effort to enhance her appearance in the gym, with plastic surgery, Botox, breast augmentation, anything that will increase the attraction for young guys.

And of course the young guys are all too happy to ‘fill that hole’ (pun intended) since the effort required to get after it with the 40+ is practically nil and the rejection ratio is far lower. In addition most 22 year old guys know an LTR is more or less out of the question; they may be a booty call for her, but that’s an ideal situation for him, sex on demand with no expectation of any form of security for her. They like to make up reasonings like “she’s more experienced in bed” or “we’re both in our sexual primes”, but this just serves to justify him being a booty call, as if he’d have a problem with that.

The real irony of the whole situation is that 40+ woman is now doing exactly what she mercilessly criticized these ‘immature’, problematic 30-40 something men for doing. However, we don’t see any articles telling women to grow up, or to do the right thing or how infantile they are for sexually desiring younger men. On the contrary, they’re applauded for ‘bucking the system’ and embracing their sexual natures (as if they were formerly repressed) and “You go girl!” using isolated celebrity examples like Demi Moore fucking Ashton Kutcher as a role model.

The SMP After Marriage

For a long while I’ve been content to let bloggers like Athol Kay address sexual dynamics post-marriage (or LTR). I don’t think it’s any real secret that Married Man Sex Life has been more than compromised by a feminine-correct influence and the discussion is now directed by women’s imperatives there. This has been the forum’s state for some time now. So as such, I feel it’s kind of incumbent upon me to open myself up to addressing Red Pill issues within marriage (or LTRs) for the foreseeable future. This is just an avenue I’ll be opening up here, not a particular focus, don’t worry.

The following was a comment from YaReally in last week’s thread. I thought this more or less summed up the disconnect he believes exists between Old Married Guys (OMGs) and Young Single Guys (YSGs) who both have enough Red Pill awareness to want to employ it in their marriages as well as the plates they’re spinning as a PUA:

Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we’re happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that’s awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives’ pics in the “post your idea of a 10” threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it’s simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.

This is an interesting paradox for OMGs, but I think it’s also not accounting for how sexual priorities and Frame shifts as a couple matures. The most glaring shift is of course maturing men’s SMV comparative to their wives’ will almost always be an order of magnitude above that of their wives’. As I laid out in Preventive Medicine, at this stage of maturity the task for wives becomes one of keeping that husband in the dark about his real SMV status; the concern being his sexual disinterest in her and him coming to a realization of his SMV and he leaves her for ‘younger, hotter, tighter’. Whether this is an actual threat is often inconsequential – unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it – what occurs at this phase of a woman’s maturity is either a passive form of Dread or a feeling of regret for not having better optimized Hypergamy for herself so late in life.

Most men (i.e. Blue Pill Betas) never make this connection and blunder through their peak SMV years with a wife whose late-life competition anxiety sounds like nagging most of the time, or else it’s a possessive Frame grab with the latent purpose of keeping him focused on “her needs” rather than coming to understand he’s in the best position to capitalize on his SMV in his lifetime. This is actually part of the Blue Pill, feminine-correct plan for maintaining an optimal Hypergamy (or at least the impression of it) for women.

I’ve mentioned countless times on this blog that men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38 depending upon how well he’s established himself in a variety of ways that contribute to it. As Red Pill awareness grows I (hopefully) expect more men will be able to capitalize on their moment of clarity as well as use this peak moment to enjoy and choose what’s best for themselves and their futures with regards to women. When men reach this peak it is generally a point at which women are also at their most necessitous (i.e. the Epiphany Phase). This simple matter of logistics also contributes to that man’s peak SMV in the form of making his commitment a valued commodity – presuming he’s built himself into that peak in the years prior to it.

My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so threatening that it causes dread in his wife. I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife, and particularly if, up until this phase, she’s firmly dictated the Frame of their relationship since marriage.

I should add that this advice isn’t meant as some form of punishment or a big ‘get even’ with a man’s wife, but rather, a man pressing his SMV advantage at this point, to the point of instilling dread, will form a more solid attachment with his dominant Frame being the primary one – which is something his wife has likely craved for their marriage since the outset.

What YaReally (probably inadvertently) is revealing here is that women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction.

Feminine-primary social conventions build this into a man’s Blue Pill conditioning so he believes that a marriage “always requires a lot of work” before and after he’s been married. This is why Athol’s Blue Pill advice of not overdoing the Alpha is so in error; it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.

Pop culture likes to call this effect “wife goggles”, but that’s a euphemism for how feminine-primary social conventions have conditioned men to feel a need to pander to their wife’s insecurity. In doing so they self-defeat any positive effect that this natural dread would benefit him and his relationship with his wife. If a man makes a conscious choice to limit himself in the phase of his life where he can best capitalize on his peak SMV this lifts the burden of a woman being the focus of him having to do so to make her feel secure.

And all of this has been about married men; feminine-primary social conventions have a whole set of social dictates intended to get a single man in this phase of life to willfully limit his own options. This is why we get shaming tactics and presumptions of ego-centrism for men in this demographic. This is why they’re called commit-o-phobes; because the hope is that these men will feel some measure of inappropriateness about their natural sexual impulses and choose an older women as a choice of mate. A woman who, again, is at her most necessitous and insecure about her future in the SMP or her long term prospectives.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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NewbieOnPoint
NewbieOnPoint
7 years ago

RSD Tyler & Julien on identity(mindset) and self-awareness shifts

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Othergrain ” she’d probably overlook (or more likely not notice) that one instance since it’s like taking a cup of water out of a pool.” The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving it as beta….. quack! The more you look at the dog logic AF/BB explanations the more it fails to explain the edges… Women are naturally attracted to Alpha [DPA traits] = tingles… HOWEVER this does not equate automatic Penis in Vagina… Game is a language… the language of female seduction… if you do not know game, a DPA guy WITH a TON of attraction will still… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
7 years ago

@Anonymous Reader

He won’t change that. Call it “bleeding out” or whatever, it’s not negotiable.

Then that’s a real problem – that’s a tough situation to box yourself (or whomever) in.

If a man is too stubborn to change his attitude or situation what else can you expect of him but for him to live in the hell he’s created for himself? Let him bleed. Or let him in on RP which might help him take action.

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta. For some reason, you can’t, or won’t, separate the action from the man. Brad Pitt used to be so NET high value, that a few chinks in the armor are overlooked, or as Rollo was saying, Owens spergy ticks. “Both DPA and Beta guys can learn the language of female seduction and get a degree of sexual success… however when the fear comes out… attraction is lost. A fluent conversationalist can keep the fear hidden, until he can’t. buh bye!” Do you beleive fake it til you make… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
7 years ago

@AR
habd said it better – great reply as usual.

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago

We are all our own story’s…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JJnL-kEGQE
Who could i be?

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
YaReally
7 years ago

@Rollo “Ya, I get that you stress practice makes possible, but what Scray was arguing is that mindset has no effect on converting a Beta perceived behavior to an Alpha perceived behavior.” It’s not that it’s CHANGED, it’s just that it doesn’t matter. Like, girls won’t ever think Tyler being spergy is alpha, they just won’t hold it against him. And because they won’t hold it against him, they’ll feel attraction for him. And when they feel attraction for him, his sperginess will matter even less. That girl doesn’t come away from Tyler going “I sure wish OTHER guys had… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Reply to  YaReally
kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta. For some reason, you can’t, or won’t, separate the action from the man.”

You are overlooking, for some reason, that you have just stipulated that she separates the action from the man.

Skittles guy performed one of the most egregious beta actions there is – he gave a girl candy. The girl perceived it as the ultimate evidence that he was an alpha asshole.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Othergrain The overlooking is easily explained as simply not perceiving HIM as beta Yes. Him or it… neither register to THE ARBITER as beta, ergo the actions are not “beta”… the action is just the action. the actions are beta when they are done by the perceived BY THE ARBITER betas. The actions have less to do with it… You need to lose the dog logic PUA orthodoxy to really grasp this, because it is apples and oranges. Do you believe fake it til you make it works? I believe that practice can build skill and make “it” real. But… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Thank your deity for KFG… !

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

I’ve already set up several shrines in his honor.

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

“You are overlooking, for some reason, that you have just stipulated that she separates the action from the man.” No I’m not. Send my earlier post on how she’ll overlook the small beta act. “You are overlooking, for some reason, that you have just stipulated that she separates the action from the man.” Glad you mention skittles guy again, because you’re missing all the little nuances of it. Yea, buying her candy is a cute little beta move. But that’s not all he did. The candy was the “pull” to his beta-takeaway “push”. So it was a net alpha move.… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“What you guys are saying sounds like you think Brad Pitt can’t blow himself out.”

That’s your mindset you’re listening to.

YaReally
7 years ago

@kfg “That’s your mindset you’re listening to.” Like I say, the internal mindset we want Brad Pitt to have is different than the objective reality of how things work. Why is this getting lost on you guys lol “Skittles guy performed one of the most egregious beta actions there is – he gave a girl candy. The girl perceived it as the ultimate evidence that he was an alpha asshole.” Then if an AFC Chode gives her skittles tomorrow, she’ll fuck him? Because giving her candy is now alpha? It’s not the act of giving the candy, that in itself… Read more »

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

@kfg

In comes social conditioning that changes the context. So he gave her skittles (10 beta bucks points), but he also shit on social conventions (what an anniversary present should look like) and made fun of her (30 asshole points).

If there was no social conditiong interfering about giving presents to gfs, only beta points would be left. But still hypergamy demands sprinkles of beta bucks, so it would be advised if he was uncaring asshole.

And whether she perceives it as ultimate evidence is open to her rationalizations

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

Fuck, perpetrating the singular narratives again.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Yareally It’s not that it’s CHANGED, it’s just that it doesn’t matter. Like, girls won’t ever think Tyler being spergy is alpha, they just won’t hold it against him. And because they won’t hold it against him, they’ll feel attraction for him. And when they feel attraction for him, his sperginess will matter even less. yup… the Arbiter again deciding what is alpha and beta… You don’t get a girl “by being alpha” so much as you get the girl by “not being beta”. Tyler’s mindsets and field experience allow him to neutralize things that would hamper other guys into… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Yareally

Nonsense feel-good fluff that guys who are way too up their ass about internal game spout because guys who are scared to take action will go “Ya man!! If I just be an alpha male bitches will fall from the sky!!” It just gives guys an excuse to go do a bunch of other shit thinking that they’re upping their magical draw them into his orbit shit so they can avoid the field and approaching and ego-protect.

This is why your commentary is increasingly worthless… You are not even trying to follow along. Completely disingenuous strawmanning…

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“The candy was the “pull” to his beta-takeaway “push”.” You are illustrating the difference between a technician and an artist by missing the nuance, because it wasn’t anything of the kind. It was a shiv. And for the rest of her life, any guy who gives her Skittles will be an “asshole,” because the behaviour she detached from the man will now be attached to all men. She still feels the pain of the shiv. It wasn’t a beta action, it was a widowmaker action, entirely because of the particular man who performed the action. No technician will understand this.… Read more »

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

“women will be attracted to you regardless”

If this isn’t along the same lines as “get jacked, rich, wear a suit and post up at the bar chicks will come to you” idk what is…

Not saying that’s your intention, but clearly can be interpreted to rationalize away taking action.

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

“it was a widowmaker action”

Like I said, net alpha…

Call it a shiv, a widow maker, call it a fucking whalebone I don’t care…

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

For others who are following… Are you saying a DPA guy can never turn a girl off or get rejected or lose attraction? No he can stop being DPA and that will have consequences. You keep trying to push your “system” that’s just an oversimplification of a bunch of internal stuff with a mystical woo-woo spin added to it. First not a system, but yes it is a simplification of what are the irreducible elements of “Alpha”. Not what is the longest list of possibles… What do you have? anyone is capable of executing any of this stuff. If anyone… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Othergrain

Not saying that’s your intention, but clearly can be interpreted to rationalize away taking action.

What do you not understand about DYNAMIC coming first in the Triad? Really how old are you guys?

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“Call it a shiv, a widow maker, call it a fucking whalebone I don’t care…”

Unless I ascribe the meaning of “shiv” to “whalebone,” the victim is going to bleed out because I won’t take the appropriate action.

” . . . can be interpreted to rationalize away . . .”

Perhaps the problem to be addressed is the rationalizing.

having a bad day
having a bad day
7 years ago

@Rollo I’m not arguing against the idea of certain behavioral sets being interpreted as Alpha or Beta, what I’m not getting is the disconnect between isolated behaviors and the mindset that prompts them. i don’t think i was explicit enough on the whole [mindset –> behavior = objective reality] idea (i just implied some of this)… and since you are drafting a post about this stuff, i thought maybe i could try to clear it up a little… your mindset does inform your behavior… it is upstream from actions that you take… but that doesn’t have to mean that you… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“I am starting to feel that Wild Man Mitch is owed an apology on the whole cult thing…” I didn’t get around to writing it, but yesterday I found myself thinking: “One of the ways to form a cult is to take words that have a well understood meaning and change the meaning to one that only people who are in the group understand. For a bonus point, begin ascribing that meaning to people who are not in the group when they use the word and call them to task for it. Wild Mitch Man might then have some real… Read more »

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

But kfg, it’s the mindset that causes that rationalization 😉

We know men will take every chance they can NOT to put their ego on the line and learn to get better with women, through immersion learning. I can see hundreds of ways Dynamic can be interpreted as, “make lots of money, climb mountains, fight a bear…” ANYthing but talk to that pretty girl.

“What do you not understand about DYNAMIC coming first in the Triad? Really how old are you guys?”

“As a DPA guy you can be happy and not get laid”

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

” . . . your behavior = the objective reality that other people see… this includes EVERYTHING…”

. . . like how an eyebrow is (or is not) cocked. People who can’t see and interpret the small behaviours can’t “read minds.” Those do, can.

http://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/shutterstock_93025579-800×430.jpg
comment image

I know what they are thinking.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Othergrain We know men will take every chance they can NOT to put their ego on the line and learn to get better with women, through immersion learning. I can see hundreds of ways Dynamic can be interpreted as, “make lots of money, climb mountains, fight a bear…” ANYthing but talk to that pretty girl. Yes YOU can see hundreds of ways… which is why I asked about your background and explained how a POINT OF VIEW is formed… and a common point of view of late intermediate and early advanced PUA practitioners is they are the shit, they are… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“… and a common point of view of late intermediate and early advanced PUA practitioners is they are the shit, they are the dope pimps and they are the ones that get “it”… but they are the ones that still lack the experience to understand what they do not understand…”

Who are the most dangerous martial artists?
The brown belts, because they know how to kill, but don’t know how to not kill.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

You haven’t changed your looks or anything, you don’t suddenly have a 6-pack and you’re not rich, and you purposely told her your job was something dumb and unattractive like I told you to so you wouldn’t have that crutch to rely on, and you told her you like Warcraft (or whatever your passion is) [authentic…] like I said to tell her, and you saw her get attracted when you talked passionately about that subject… [passionate…] she’s not just being nice, she’s attracted to YOU, because NOW you’re properly demonstrating [dynamic…] the value that you’ve always had but just didn’t… Read more »

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

@KFG: there is more to life than pussy.

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

I’ve never claimed to know everything, in fact it seems you’re the one with all the answers…DPA, platinum rule.

Maybe I’m assuming you think “be DPA” is actionable advice, when you don’t intend it to be.

Are we playing duck duck goose? Or just making animal sounds. What sound does a turtle make?

https://youtu.be/MAORPWwb8Ww

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@IAS: “there is more to life than pussy.”

Ba-roomp-boomp!

But speaking of pussy:

The second pussy above and this one . . .

comment image

. . . are both performing the same gross action, but the former is beta and the latter is alpha, and the only difference between them is what they are thinking.

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@Yareally “Like scray isn’t a “short guy” to girls, girls will probably even complain ABOUT short guys to scray forgetting that he’s a short guy. Same with my minority buddies, where girls will complain about guys of THEIR race to them, because they literally don’t consider my buddies the same as THOSE guys because THOSE guys are unattractive and the girls see those guys’ flaws, whereas my buddies flip enough switches that those things aren’t considered flaws to the girl while she’s attracted. If she 180’s on them and loses attraction or goes War Brides or the NRE wears off… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Rollo

I will try and find it… SFJ mentioned a Luke video call out and I recall a comment in an Igram post, not the main pic.

Meanwhile I will put this here…

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMKP2bPDRvA

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

Previous comment should day *This is exactly the kind of THING that kind of thinking leads to*

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

Rollo: “I’m beginning to see the need to separate “Alpha” in terms of mindset, from “Alpha” in terms of process and behaviors. This is one reason I’ve never really adopted Vox Day’s social hierarchy terminology, because a Gamma or a Delta by his reckoning can still fake process well enough to be perceived as having an Alpha mindset – presuming they apply themselves. Thus, I’ve always stuck to distilling things down to AF/BB.” HABD: “AF/BB is the gold standard of male sexual repro strategies… i don’t know how you could change that to make it more clear… the biggest issue… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Othergrain I’ve never claimed to know everything, in fact it seems you’re the one with all the answers…DPA, platinum rule. I think you’ve been behaving as if you think everything you know is everything… What I’ve given you is more answers… take it or leave it… How long does it take to be a Noodle Master? Maybe I’m assuming you think “be DPA” is actionable advice, when you don’t intend it to be. The whole point of reducing Alpha down to the irreducible traits is to make it actionable… not a paralyzing yet contradictory list of behaviors… Go be known… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

KFG – that is the biggest pussy i’ve seen in a while…

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@Sentient:

I tried to find a smaller one, but sometimes when the urge is pressing you take what the field presents.

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@kfg

You don’t know what the cat is thinking dude. You know what that posture is. You can only imagine what it’s thinking.

Indeed, people commonly do things they think their pet likes, but that are actually quite annoying to the animal, because they think they know what it’s thinking/how it feels/what it likes.

scray
scray
7 years ago

@rollo lol as it stands right now, your representation of the PUA side on this whole issue (if you’re going to talk about it in this article/post) has a high, high probability of being a misrepresentation. you keep characterizing our side as ‘mindset is irrelevant’ or some other such nonsense. it is not. mindset makes executing the program easier; i.e. a program with > alpha traits than beta traits. but the actions themselves are either alpha or beta. I don’t buy this. Everything most definitely does not start from a neutral perception. Brad Pitt or Tom Brady bringing a girl… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@Eon56: “You don’t know what the cat is thinking dude.”

Oh, you poor, walking dead bastard.

“Indeed, people commonly do things they think their pet likes . . .”

. . . because they think their pet thinks like they do.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

Lol.

MrT
MrT
7 years ago

Ban the cultists Rollo! Before it gets out of hand.

Klem
Klem
7 years ago

@Yareally “It’s not the act of giving the candy, that in itself is a beta move that will blow out AFC Chodes. It’s all the stuff AROUND that act that makes him alpha.” About Skittles guy, I would argue that it is INDEED the fact that giving a girl candy is beta that made this action have such a strong impact on the chicks. If he hadn’t done that, the girls would not have been able to relate, and would not have remembered him like this. Like Scray explained time and time again, you need a mix of Alpha and… Read more »

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@kfg “Oh, you poor, walking dead bastard.” Lol well what’s it thinking then? Be specific now. Forget the body language, I want to know what it’s THINKING, what’s going through its mind. “. . . because they think their pet thinks like they do.” Despite consistent behavior that clearly shows that is not the case. They deny reality. “. . . are both performing the same gross action, but the former is beta and the latter is alpha, and the only difference between them is what they are thinking” Is that the only difference? Or are you guessing that they… Read more »

Klem
Klem
7 years ago

@Sentient “it’s an adjunct. As a DPA guy you can be happy and not get laid… women will be attracted to you regardless… drawn into your orbit.” You might not realize it and mean no harm by it, but this is exactly the type of reasoning that keeps soooooo many guys frustrated about their sexlife. Because it is just not true !!! The world is full of authentic passionate guys who have their shit together, cut wood and climb Mount Everest. And they don’t get laid, without knowing why, because everyone parrots the sentence above. “Don’t worry, the girls will… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“About Skittles guy, I would argue that it is INDEED the fact that giving a girl candy is beta that made this action have such a strong impact on the chicks.” The signal is getting stronger. “Like Scray explained time and time again, you need a mix of Alpha and Beta actions to get girls to fall for you.” Oh, now it’s getting weaker again. The girl didn’t bring up the Skittles to do a “You don’t know him like I know him,” as a pull would. She brought up the Skittles to add the final emphasis to what an… Read more »

Eon56
Eon56
7 years ago

@kfg

“She brought up the Skittles to add the final emphasis to what an asshole he was. Proof that he was an Alpha Cad.

It wasn’t “comfort.” It wasn’t “negotiation of desire.” It was an insult.

I say, I say, I say; don’t you know an insult, Son?”

This was after the fact.

When he handed her that bag of skittles, you can bet your ass she was just so shocked that he somehow knew skittles were her FAVORITE CANDY EVER!!

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Klem

Serious question. Can you read and comprehend without first interjecting your own thoughts?

having your shit together, chopping wood or climbing Everest are not by themselves DPA… It is a Triad for a reason.

And reduced to avoid exactly the kinds of actions you ascribe to being Alpha…

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Oh and Golf… Actually I was thinking about this recently… No matter how much you practice nearly all guys plateue not scoring par. Do you know what that is called?

a handicap.

Have fun on the driving range then holing out an 87… Again. Maybe Ludwig can caddie for you?

othergrain
othergrain
7 years ago

I beleive I may have the wrong story in mind as Skittles Guy…and a quick search only brings up what i assume you’re referring to, kfg. I was thinking it was: Early on in the “courtship”, guy goes “I’ve been thinking a lot and I think you’re really special. I wanted to get you a little something to show you how I feel.” Bring out jewelry box, she starts thinking “oh god, what a pathetic bitch this is only our 3rd date!” Open it up and it’s skittles inside. Beta takeaway, you get the “asshole!” Punch on the arm. So… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Scray

Dont hold back. It’s Friday. Just come out and agree with me. Dont beat around the bush.

Alpha = decisive action. [dynamic passionate and authentic!]

beta = hesitant action [fear!]

results are interpreted by whom though? Yareally?

Klem
Klem
7 years ago

@Sentient

You can beat around the bush all you like, your DPA stuff is just encouraging guys to be passive and avoidant, and ultimately aligns with the FI : don’t you dare take an active role in your love/sex life, just sit back and let the girls choose you.

scray
scray
7 years ago

@sentient Dont hold back. It’s Friday. Just come out and agree with me. Dont beat around the bush. lol it’s “easy to agree with you” because your DPA formulation is so vague that it can mean anything, here you’ve taken dynamic, passionate, and authentic to = decisive. none of those words means decisive, none of those words is even a synonym for decisive….but you’ve just shoehorned it in anyway and sure people can spitball and say ok i guess kind of…and people can go the other way too….and that’s why it is a terrible formulation. and lol i’m not agreeing… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“When he handed her that bag of skittles, you can bet your ass she was just so shocked that he somehow knew skittles were her FAVORITE CANDY EVER!!”

Q: Why do men have to treat women in a mechanistic way to get laid?
A: Because they don’t understand a single thing women are saying.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@Othergrain: “Only thing I can find supports yours . . .”

Bingo! Perhaps I should have provided the link myself. I was ingroup thinking. It can happen even when you’re being careful about that sort of thing. That’s one of the reasons to be careful about it.

Yes, your example is revolting.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

” say, I say, I say; don’t you know an insult, Son?”

http://www.cartoonresearch.com/foggy2.jpg

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Klem You need some more notes brodie… Dynamic – passionate – authentic = alpha. Dynamic – a bias for action, initiation, invention. These are male life giving and sustaining traits. A man siting on his ass ain’t bringing in mastodon meat or discovering how to make fire or exploring and conquering new territories or defending existing ones. Male dynamism is the corollary to female reproduction and nurturing. Passion – a hunger for increasing knowledge and skill. Passion is the fuel for dynamic endeavor, informing and amplifying. Passion brings life to the male trait of mission, which drives larger society forward… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

Tapped out on this discussion temporarily. Ive been chewing on the whole beta/alpha thing all day long though. The issue for me is that I can’t get out of my own head and MPO. I don’t think this is a bad thing though. I fall a lot closer to Sentient’s viewpoint though, but YaReally has some very interesting pua influenced takes that can’t be written off or ignored. Scray is still kinda hamfisted ( I suffer from this too…no shade ) so I’m disagreeing more with his position as he states it. HABD is logically very convincing…but what’s new? But… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“YaReally makes sense in his analysis of having guys ” do ” to gain experience, and then informing their mindset. Sounds reasonable.” It’s perfectly reasonable, within its purview, and Ya Really explicitly states the purview. All the frickin’ time. The problem only arises when you begin to bleed that purview outside of its boundaries. The purpose of teaching noobs game is the make them not noobs any more. If you start seeing everything in light of how noobs see things, than you start creating a Harrison Bergeron world where nobody is allowed to be an expert. First you paint by… Read more »

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@Klem

This comment section is really a proof that guys are just as emotion driven as chicks.

I hope you got good feelz of superiority by writing this, heh, heh.

YaReally
7 years ago

@hank holiday Props on going out and challenging yourself. Like I say, you are putting in more effort than most guys who have WAY better logistics and environments and opportunities to work with that they completely take for granted. I have mad respect for that ’cause I had to hustle to get my ass to venues where I could approach for most of my pickup career until recently where I moved into the nightlife district to not have to struggle so much. “chat up some bartenders. they all think I am cool from getting all the drinks.” Man do I… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

KFG

And sure as shit some guy who’s an expert at painting by number is going to come along and tell you that you’re doing it all wrong, when he doesn’t even understand what the fuck it is you’re doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_4SJ4lZxk

Great RP short movie (if you just watch the first of the three stories” Life Lessons, from 1988 film New York Stories…

The Lion delivers a brutal put down to the young buck “you are graffiti artist?” as he catches him staring at his splendid work…

YaReally
7 years ago

@MrT “In comes social conditioning that changes the context. So he gave her skittles (10 beta bucks points), but he also shit on social conventions (what an anniversary present should look like) and made fun of her (30 asshole points).” You got it. @Rollo My wording was bad with the neutral thing, I didn’t at all mean what you’re saying lol I meant what Scray’s talking about in his +/- trait example or like MrT’s example. I should’ve worded things better but I don’t really have to explain this concept very often because it’s not something anyone really questions. “His… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Reply to  YaReally
Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

” Also, i’m laughing so hard at guys being butthurt at Scray “YOU SAYING THAT I’M BETA BRO”. This comment section is really a proof that guys are just as emotion driven as chicks”

I disagree.

This isn’t a true characterization of what happened.

Again, not to start anything, but some guys ….. ahhh, never mind.

mersonia
7 years ago

@Blaximus
“This isn’t a true characterization of what happened.”

He forgot to add pictures of ducks

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

“I missed a few days and skimmed through and saw everyone flip their shit at scray and me..” Yeah, well let’s just say that skimming shit pattern of yours has been a pattern here. And an AHDH type lack of understanding of what other commenters have actually said and what their abstract stance is. Your logic is full of fallacies. That being said, your contributions are wonderful. When you stick to PUA game. Simply fantastic stuff you type about PUA Game. You should stick with that. Rather than abstract arguments about those red pill adherents that are not aligned with… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Reply to  SJF
Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago
MrT
MrT
7 years ago

@blax

Whats your characterization of the scray altercation?

having a bad day
having a bad day
7 years ago

@Blaximus “But what’s struck me most, and causing me to think even more is something kfg alluded to previously. The difference between ” technical ” and ” artistic “. Chord struck with me.” technician = conscious competence artist = unconscious competence + inspiration “I’m always open to ” the other way “, so YaReally makes sense in his analysis of having guys ” do ” to gain experience, and then informing their mindset. Sounds reasonable. Still, mindset is optimal imo. My experiences have been the opposite of what Ya describes, I had to think, believe and then do. The mindset… Read more »

cheupez
7 years ago

Alpha = Gal buys him the drink and fucks him. Those who played broke guy game before; very hard to play by the way women can smell this out of you with surprising accuracy. In a club, dont sit. Walk around drinkless. Chat up gals, pick ones with ioi, any time they ask why you are not taking anything tell them you are broke if they can buy you a drink. Some will offer, some who offer may lose interest, one or two will keep buying and “offer” (imply) that you go out together. To that gal you are alpha… Read more »

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
7 years ago

@Scray ok well this whole mindset stuff just seems an awful lot like a way to hamster everything under the sun as alpha ‘so long as you FELT LIKE IT BRO’ … you can’t be 100% super alpha unless you’re planning on a life of just ONS and that’s it. so if you want any female companionship beyond that, you’re going to rely on some beta traits. but because the manosphere is so up the butt with ‘alpha = good’ we’re just gonna keep on with this “formulation” I guess. I didn’t realize how much I missed you and YaReally… Read more »

Anthony DiValentin
Anthony DiValentin
7 years ago

I have the mother of all case studies. Actually, 3-in-one, and the main one having a plethora of family dynamics typical of narcissistic abuse patterns. As example, towards the end, after she had been called out on all of her lies (including the first one she ever told me – she was ritualistically raped by the freemason cult her parents were in, while they watched and approved), she involved her two main “flying monkeys”, that being her parents. After I told them about the cult thing, they told me she lied about being raped at age 12 – some decade… Read more »

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[…] via SMV and the Aging Process — The Rational Male […]

nicholascloud
nicholascloud
7 years ago

> “it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.”

Essentially sexual altruism, where meeting a woman’s “need” is the standard of virtue.

Dave
Dave
7 years ago

“men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38”

I guess that would explain all the 34-38 year old men I see with college girls *sarcasm*.

Let’s be real: girls prefer guys their own age up 2 years tops. Studies and anecdote bear this out. You won’t even show up on their Tindwr matches if you’re over 30.

Of course if you’re happy with being a sugar daddy, that’s a whole different story.

FallenWarrior
FallenWarrior
7 years ago

As I enter my 30s and am gainfully employed..it doesn’t take that much effort to get girls (am not even 6 feet lol)..on the MGTOW forums there were commenting on how this guy ran provider game on this chick and dumped her..I wonder if he got her enthusiastic sex from her i.e. her “True Attraction/Arousal”.

rugby11
rugby11
7 years ago
Dave
Dave
4 years ago

Genius. Absolute genius. Thank you.

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[…] on men. As a man, your value side has no upper bound. If you take life seriously, you can take your sexual market value (SMV) higher than ANY woman on the […]

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[…] As a man, your value side has no upper bound. If you take life seriously, you can take your sexual market value (SMV) higher than ANY woman on the […]

Sophia
Sophia
1 month ago

I am a 35 year old career woman- not my own choice but forced by circumstances as I am the eldest and I am from single motherhood household hence I have seen the impact of failed marriages, separation and divorce from young age, particularly, how it affects woman financially. The other main reason is my faith as I always seemed man from same faith and there have not been many men who had genuine faith and kindness in my life. It is one thing when you are a single woman in her 30s who can spend time and energy in… Read more »

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