Two Camps

I thought this was an interesting take from Striver in this week’s comments. I think this part has some merit…

Once gut level violence is tempered, men want to be the hero, the doer, who is rewarded for his deeds by a woman or women. Game is inherently feminine, an admission that women have won. Game involving talking and “communication” – does that sound masculine?

However, I disagree with him here…

As far as whether Game is necessary, any sex that doesn’t produce surviving offspring is just recreation. If your n count is 100, and no babies are produced or all potential babies are aborted, then it’s the same as n count 0 except for how it makes you feel. If women choose to sleep with the alpha players, then have babies with the beta shlubs, that’s the COMPLETE game.

This fundamentally ignores the biological root of women’s Hypergamy. The ideal evolutionary outcome is for a woman to optimize Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. Ideally a woman who breeds and consolidates on monogamy with a man best exemplifying these aspects is the evolutionary “winner”. If that’s not possible, or not optimal, the ideal evolutionary winner is the woman who breeds with an Alpha Fucks man, and consolidates provisioning with a Beta Bucks man.

A lot of Blue Pill men feel a sense of vindication for the Epiphany Phase “success” they finally get with women once their long-term usefulness to women finally outweighs women’s ability to attract more Alpha Fucks ideal men. It’s a validation of their self-styled perseverance and some qualifier of  what they convince themselves is the ‘real‘ attractiveness women have for that self-righteous Beta provisioning.

The fact is that this is an old-order, old-SMP misbelief. In all of the eras preceding the advent of unilaterally feminine controlled birth control both sexes shared in the social responsibility of controlling women’s innate Hypergamy (AF/BB). However left to her own, unconditioned, expectation to responsibly assume control of her Hypergamy, women default to separate ideals for Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks.

In other words, women prefer a breeding model that separates men into two different varieties – the kinds of men women want to fuck and the kind they want to marry – or “the kind of man your mother wants you to marry and the kind of guy you leave him for to be with.”

So ensaturated into our social fabric is this understanding that even men will reinforce the archetypes. I have a 16 year old daughter, and even Rollo Tomassi would want his girl to be with ‘truck guy’ instead of ‘girly car guy’. Across all generations it just makes better sense, right?

I’ve mentioned this before in the Myth of the Good Guy. It’s amazing to me that men still seem to think they can embody the nobler aspects of both the Alpha Jerk and the comforting Beta to become a mythical Good Guy that women will naturally recognize, appreciate and prefer in comparison to the Jerkish Alpha Bad Boy or the Sympish Beta Nice Guy. The sell is one of combining the best of both archetypes and thereby satisfying women’s need for an optimized Hypergamy.

The mistake in this, of course, is presuming women have the foresight to identify and appreciate the aspects that should satisfy an optimized state of Hypergamy. What Good Guys don’t consider is that women simply don’t have the depth of experience with men needed to recognize or appreciate ‘the best of both types’ at various phases of their maturity.

For instance, young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful.

Yet even for an older, presumedly wiser, generation, the resourceful Alpha “has more sex appeal” than the sensitive, attentive, comforting Beta Herb male.

“I’d Rather Cry Over An Asshole Than Date A Guy Who Bores Me”

At least with the dick, there’s a spark there — even if it’s just one you’re trying to catch. At least with the asshole, you’re wasting your time on someone entertaining. At least with the guy who’ll bring you undeniable rage and pain, there’s a feeling there.

The problem with Good Guy ambitions of being the best of both Alpha excitement and Beta comfort is that women are incapable of appreciating either of these aspects simultaneously. The predominant need women feel for Beta comfort, dependability and provisioning during their Epiphany Phase just prior to the Wall is unrelatable to a woman in her peak SMV years when her predominant sexual focus is on exciting Alpha recklessness.

I speculated in Myth of the Good Guy that in today’s sexual marketplace women simply don’t believe the average man is capable of being the best of both types. I still hold to that assertion – only apex Alpha celebrity men are in anyway believable, but mostly due to women creating this optimized character for themselves. However, and probably more importantly, women aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at the same time.

This separation of Alpha exciting men from dependable (but boring) Beta men is a direct result of the social “empowerment” women have been afforded, and socially engineered by the Feminine Imperative, for the past 5 generations.

This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for Socialized Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women, Hypergamy doesn’t recognize men who embody a long term optimization of Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. Instead Hypergamy, unfettered by social restraint, prefers short term mating with exciting, but dangerous Alpha genetic potential, and an enforced long term responsibility to the cuckoldry of parentally invested, emotionally invested, dependable Beta providers.

The separate need for these archetypes does not occur at the same time in a woman’s progression of maturity. In fact the only area of overlapping need for these types is exactly the pre-Wall ages of 29-31 for women (i.e. the Epiphany Phase), the age range when the majority consensus of women agree that they want to marry and settle down.

From a strictly evolutionary perspective Striver’s assertion that Betas get the last laugh in the genetic olympics is correct. Nice Guys may finish last, but no one says they don’t finish at all. But do they finish best?

Unfortunately, on a subconscious level, women’s sexual strategies, which then translate into social doctrine, develop contingencies for duping Betas into provisioning for children not their own, or are ‘outsourced’ as parents once they’ve been removed from the family unit. Either that or they’re relegated to progressively sexless status of nominally male providership and parental investment.

A Beta fathering children is common, but there’s more to raising a child than just the combining of alleles.

Are Cads Outbanging Dads?

You’ll notice I titled this post “Are the cads outbanging the dads?” That was deliberate, because there remain questions about whether cads are actually breeding more or less than dads. Outbanging is different than outbreeding. A woman could casually ignore potential beta dads throughout her teens and 20s (her prime years) for a sterile ride on the cock carousel with alpha males, only to settle down later with a beta male and bear him 1.8 children. Cheap and easy contraceptives thwart the natural procreation advantage that alpha males would normally have over beta males in the state of nature, so it is very possible that alpha males could be winning the Banging Sweepstakes while losing the Breeding Sweepstakes.

Evidence that cad outbanging and supercharged female hypergamy is occurring resides in the later age of first marriage rates, and the lower overall marriage rate, as well as the higher STD rates among women.

And there is evidence for cad outbreeding as well. Serial monogamy — which is a form of soft polygyny — is on the rise, and men who have had more than one partner have more childrenthan men married to one woman.

On the other side of the debate are the GSS (General Social Survey) gurus who marshal self-reported evidence that dads are winning the breeding wars over cads.

I remain skeptical of the GSS data, but give it its due. My contention has never been that cads are having more children, but rather that cads are having more premarital sex than dads with higher quality (read: better looking) women when those women are in their sexual primes. This, not the discrepancy in fertility rates between alpha and beta males, is the contraceptively-aided shock wave that is roiling the sexual market and upending organic rules thousands, perhaps millions, of years old.

A society of both cad ascendence and civilization is unsustainable and incompatible. One or the other will go, and the pendulum with either swing back to dads or civilization will regress to accommodate the rise of women choosing cads. All social and economic indicators (particularly the debt overhang), and my personal experience in the bowels of the dating market, lead me to be pessimistic about a happy resolution to this building tension. Hopefully, I’m wrong, but in the meantime I’ll do what is necessary to secure my pleasure.

If the Chevy Colorado commercial is any gauge of our current sexual marketplace (and I realize it was supposed to be satirical), the female meta-desire for Alpha breeding opportunities far outstrips any notion that more Beta men are the preferred long-term parental mating choice of optimized Hypergamy.

This commercial is yet another shinning example of mainstream society’s increasing comfort with Open Hypergamy. In that post I outlined the conflict that occurs between women comfortable and prideful about revealing the duplicity of their sexual strategy, and the women less able to capitalize on that openness and cling to a secretive Hypergamy. However, men too are invested in that conflict.

When laws mandate a father be held financially and provisionally responsible for children that are not biologically his own (either by his choice or a woman’s overt cuckoldry) you can see how Hypergamy is literally an imperative that directs men’s lives to optimize it. In a social order founded upon women’s unrestricted Hypergamous influences no man, Truck Guy or Prius Guy, is ever truly the father of his child.

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Nick
Guest

As far as Striver’s comment, it sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of game. Talking is only a surface level behavior, what attracts the woman is subcommunication and physical leading, not lines or routines. Naturals apply the same principles as PUAs, though subconsciously. In my blue pill days I thought I’d be “rewarded for my deeds”, but now I see this is foolhardy. I don’t expect anything from a woman that I don’t attract through directly arousing her by my behavior. Game is just an understanding of female behavior, not a reliance on societally enforced restrictions on female hypergamy, which for… Read more »

Truss
Guest
Truss

So, in other words (per Myth of the Good Guy), Sirtyrion was correct. I suppose Robert Greene was right:

“Law 32

Play to People’s Fantasies

The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant. Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes for disenchantment. Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert: Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses. “

caprizchka
Guest

“In other words, women prefer a breeding model that separates men into two different varieties – the kinds of men women want to fuck and the kind they want to marry – or “the kind of man your mother wants you to marry and the kind of guy you leave him for to be with.”” Do women actually prefer this model or are they acting according to instinct? I use the “they” pronoun because I’m not a breeder and therefore can’t really weigh in as a woman on that level (albeit, as usual, I break the molds defined by this… Read more »

Factcheck
Guest
Factcheck

@Nick: Men dont want to pay child support for kids that are not his won

Bromeo
Guest
Bromeo

@Rollo

“This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for Socialized Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women”

This right here is huge. All men need to brace themselves for what the FI and female hypergamy is leading to in the future of our society. Bascially, we are coming full circle back to how it was in the wild with animals, the Alpha’s will get all the female resources and Beta’s will get the crumbs.

Alpha up.

Ra's al Ghul
Guest
Ra's al Ghul

The idealized mix of both is pre sex liberation. When marriage was more vigorously enforced as well as monogamy, then a woman would be (and her family) evaluating a suitor on both the maximum of both attributes that he provides because that was to a large extent the “deal” and women tried to get a man that would provide the best combination in her mind for those needs. And men were elevated in status to help this process. The epiphany is actually two stages the first is at 25, this is the beginning of the draw toward the beta side… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

It is essential to be able to beat a woman at her own game. Communications.

Funny enough the fm was having the “I want to have your babies” tingle (we have 4 and are past the stage…) last night. None the less it made her feel real good. She jumped my bones this morning.

Make babies. If you are strong enough.

Jeremy
Guest

@caprizchka Do women actually prefer this model or are they acting according to instinct? Do men actually prefer large boobs or are they acting according to instinct? At some point, one has to acknowledge that people are what they are, acknowledged instincts or not. Yes to the truck guy. The economy car guy is probably some academic who records his mileage in a little notebook in the glove compartment and may or may not ever get tenure. The best part about male stereotypes is how often they fail. In fact, that is one of the aspects of being male that… Read more »

Fifty Seven
Guest
Fifty Seven

Thought exercise: Swap the Prius for a Bentley and re-do the test.

Jeremy
Guest

Swap the Pious for anything that looks like a Bentley and re-do the test.

LiveFearless
Guest

Rollo writes the female meta-desire for Alpha breeding opportunities far outstrips any notion that more Beta men are the preferred long-term parental mating choice of… This is now embedded through all popular media that most people, for whatever reasons, choose to spend away time in their lives absorbing. At whatever age, do whatever it takes, spend whatever it takes, get to the gym every day to be on the fast track to creating new habits to be perceived as the opposite of beta. Sure, the real and specific changes naturally attract lovely women. The same changes also work well when… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

I guess my GTI wouldn’t win me many points. The bike makes up for it I suppose.

Northy
Guest
Northy

This whole Alphafux/Betabux is probably going to make me ignore women altogether eventually. I am the type of man who made European Civilisation possible. These “women” take it for granted and ignore good, decent men.

I can think of NOTHING (aside from cuckoldry) more disrespectful than this blatant lane-changing.

Mansa Sundiata
Guest
Mansa Sundiata

That commercial is awesome. I honestly have nothing else to add to this discussion Halfway through it i was thinking of getting one then i realized that’s exactly what they wanted me to think.

Mansa Sundiata
Guest
Mansa Sundiata

Hey Northy thanks for giving me something else to comment on. What is a good “decent” man? Most likely its an image you were conditioned to believe. I don’t think ignoring women is the answer. Since you are now a man with knowledge that most men lack you have an advantage that most men don’t. Use it to make your relationships suit your purposes or else they (women) will have you suit theirs

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

RE: Truck vs. Prius “choice”

Law 31: Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards You Deal
The best deceptions are the ones that seem to give the other person a choice: Your victims feel they are in control, but are actually your puppets.

See what they did, there?

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

““This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for SOCIALIZED Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women”” I don’t see that the AF BB separation is instinctually evolved. I think it is an artifact of you go girrrll feminism. Pre-civilization, women started breeding shortly after puberty in harsh conditions. They needed to have strong instincts for both AF and BB function seeking right out of the box. Sure, there might be a desire for EPCs if the mate isn’t AF enough. But the risks and difficulty in keeping this covert in small tribes makes it more efficient for them to… Read more »

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

This shit is so depressing. I get nothing of value in having sexual relationships with women.

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

“The Diplomat

February 6th, 2015 at 5:59 pm

RE: Truck vs. Prius “choice”

Law 31: Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards You Deal
The best deceptions are the ones that seem to give the other person a choice: Your victims feel they are in control, but are actually your puppets.

See what they did, there?”

Set up a false dichotomy?

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Mentats!

The initial anger and despair of swallowing the Red Pill eventually goes away. But ONLY if you change yourself with what you now see. It means fully realizing that you’ve believed a set of carefully cultivated lies that were not designed to benefit you, and accepting that you are not a solitary fool because of it (we’ve all been duped), AND that you now have (or can easily acquire) the knowledge to affect intersexual outcomes to your favor in a way you never could before (if you choose to do so).

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@jacklabear

False dichotomies are the basis of virtually every apparent “choice” that is offered to the weak by the powerful. Never order off the standard menu if you can avoid it.

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

The Diplomat

“Never order off the standard menu if you can avoid it.”

I get shit around here for doing that 😉

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@jacklabear

There’s always another restaurant just around the corner that’s willing to accommodate the discerning patron.

As Rollo is fond of pointing out, it serves a man better to avoid thinking in strictly binary terms–and especially when it comes to cultivating or maintaining an effective Red Pill mindset.

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

I admire your diplomatic skills.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@jacklabear

Right before I was about to post the quote below, I noticed your avatar was a picture of a dog—so, just to be clear, no correlation between the two things.

“Diplomacy is the art of saying ‘Nice doggie’ until you can find a rock.”
—Will Rogers

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

@The Diplomat

I will never be able to be high value enough. I refuse to be beta bucks and I’ll never be alpha fucks. No amount of lifting or PUA pseudoscience will ever chance that.

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

Good quote.

Actually it’s a polar bear trying to block out the noise.

mdavid
Guest
mdavid

The ideal evolutionary outcome is for a woman to optimize Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. Ideally a woman who breeds and consolidates on monogamy with a man best exemplifying these aspects is the evolutionary “winner”. This is only true if Alpha is fit for breeding children today. It’s quite possible Mr. Alpha will have less grandchildren than Beta has. In that case, Mr. Alpha is only a relic of what was ONCE successful and women are in the process of changing their preferences. Without more war, Alpha may be entering the dustbin of history. Actually, all of the West looks… Read more »

Mr T.
Guest
Mr T.

An early heads up, To some present and future commenters It’s not between a truck or a hybrid car or a guy with a horse and a guy with a donkey , you’re missing the point here. Never underestimate a woman’s ability to spot a man who exhibited beta or alpha traits. So yes, we all love to bet on the strong horse and women love it a bit more. It’s all about exhibiting the right traits. Even mothers tend to like/adore the son who is more alpha than his beta brother(she still love the beta son out of pity… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@jacklabear Good indicator that I needed to increase my screen zoom. Thanks. @Mentats! Muscles, looks, and PUA tech certainly don’t hurt. But, for you, working to change your intensely negative self-perception by focusing everything you can muster on your own inherent value by increasing your existing strengths, knowledge, and skills–even learning new ones–will get you further than dwelling on what you perceive you can’t do or will never be. Spend the entirety of the next year on that pursuit alone (forget about women altogether) and I guarantee you will notice a marked difference in your self-undermining attitude. You might even… Read more »

Moody
Guest
Moody

Hi Rollo,

One question I have is about the combination of Alpha dominance and Beta provider traits that women supposedly should. In our evolutionary past wouldn’t it have been mostly men that possessed both of these traits that would have been the preferred partners for women? As I understand it the split between Alphas for fucks and Betas for bucks only occurred fairly recently due to a number of consequences of modernity. So shouldn’t a woman’s innate Hypergamous optimization still be seeking the best of both worlds?

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat
Badpainter
Guest

Moody – “So shouldn’t a woman’s innate Hypergamous optimization still be seeking the best of both worlds?”

It is.

The best option today is to hire out those services based on specialization. Alpha fucks, a Beta for “emotional” support, government for basic provisioning.

Men do the same. We hire maids, pay others to cook our food, all the chores of wife are hired out. Spinning plates is just is just one way to hire out sexual services.

therhoubbhe
Guest
therhoubbhe

“When laws mandate a father be held financially and provisionally responsible for children that are not biologically his own (either by his choice or a woman’s overt cuckoldry) you can see how Hypergamy is literally an imperative that directs men’s lives to optimize it. ” It shocks people the law is not written with any regard for the husband. http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/paternity-issues-child-support-29847.html “In some states, any of these presumptions of paternity is considered conclusive, which means it cannot be disproven, even with contradictory blood tests.” Take note, even with evidence, a judge could say too much time has elapsed and beta bucks… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

“Game is inherently feminine, an admission that women have won. Game involving talking and “communication” – does that sound masculine?” Nick nails this one with: “Talking is only a surface level behavior, what attracts the woman is subcommunication and physical leading, not lines or routines. Naturals apply the same principles as PUAs, though subconsciously” It’s not the words I’m saying, it’s what those words subcommunicate to her about who I am. We start guys out with fancy wordy routines because it’s the easiest way to teach/learn but over time (WITH FIELD EXPERIENCE lol) the guy learns what his words are… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

I wonder if this can play out in divorces grouping around a certain age of their children, if they have any. An age when women feel any children are old enough to better handle it.
Epiphany phase, get married, have the kids, wait, kids old enough, end marriage, “rediscover herself”

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

Also pre-sexual revolution, open hypergamy took a back seat when people didn’t know which public well was giving people cholera.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

The Diplomat: “RE: Truck vs. Prius “choice” Law 31: Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards You Deal The best deceptions are the ones that seem to give the other person a choice: Your victims feel they are in control, but are actually your puppets. See what they did, there?” I know it’s not the point of this post, but I’d be interested to see a comparison between that truck and a sports car in the same price range – a corvette maybe, so as to not confound results with foreign ‘exotic’ appeal. That would help isolate… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

So M Simon’s activist proposal to make paternity checking mandatory (or at least normalized) sounds increasingly good to me…

We can’t fix this situation totally, but we can at least attempt damage control. Good male contraceptives, which may be quickly arriving (vasalgel), may help a bit too. Anything to twist a bit of parenting power in men’s favor really, we’re fighting with two hands tied behind our backs and three horse tranquilizers stuck in our ass at this point.

Jeremy
Guest

Even with legally required paternity testing and contraceptives; There’s still the state which is the back-up-daddy. Until women recognize (through enforced consequences) that they can’t just go fuck without using their brains, some form of open hypergamy is likely here to stay.

Most of you have likely seen this gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzspsovNvII

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

We need to dismantle the welfare state and end legally mandated child support.

If she wants full custody, she can pay for it herself.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Jeremy: Certainly, I’m just looking for winnable battles to shift the odds a bit. Even some small leverage, though not comparable to the economic clout of a gigantic state subsidizing poor decisions, is worth something.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Water Cannon Boy

Comparing the data of three different peer-reviewed, clinical studies, it appears the average age of children in divorce scenarios is roughly 9 years old.

I think you may be onto something.

Mr T.
Guest
Mr T.

Any idea how to cap the god damn hypergamy? (please don’t mention any religious idea)

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

Game. Everyday, all day.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Jeremy

Im thinking dismantle will never happen. Curbing it might though. Refusing welfare benefits to anyone not on birth control might be a good start. Kicking women off it that get pregnant while on it would also work. Not a complete removal, but might be politically doable… well, until the tradcons whine about paying for birth control or something.

@Mr T.

Alter the female genome. Alternatively, just get what you can from the situation and stop thinking it can be fixed; it can’t.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Game is presumed. I’d like a few more failsafes.

some guy
Guest
some guy

I know the commercial was satirical and all but it’s also very telling of American manhood. That pale, pasty bag of gym muscles is what passes for alpha these days? We are well and truly fucked.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

Every time I come to visit the Rational Male comments section, it seems like someone is always calling for ways to shut down, mitigate, or control open hypergamy. Unfortunately, that isn’t going to ever happen on a wide scale social basis in our time–barring a complete break down of society back into an agrarian-style late stone age via some apocalyptic scenario–at which point, gaming women to get laid will be the least of your concerns. Just accept that the genie is out of the bottle. The ship has already sailed. Pick your own metaphor for it. In the absence of… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

“Men are still conditioned using the old set of books, or are taught to loath their gender and be more feminine identifying. Beta sensitivity, supplication and deference are common and cheap in men. This then emphasizes (perhaps overly) men who are more Alpha.” Yup. And it’s getting worse. I am a vagina compared to oldschool rock solid dudes who were raised in a culture that respected alpha males like the 40s-50s and who went thru war and shit. They look at even the most alpha dude in my generation and think “what a pussy” I’m sure lol but what I… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Mr. T.: “Any idea how to cap the god damn hypergamy? (please don’t mention any religious idea)” Aside from altering human function as Sun Wukong mentions, it’s hard to find much. Forcing women to enter unions viscerally unsatisfactory to them, however accomplished, may seem like a good idea, but will generally end in misery for both men and women – the women will be unfulfilled, the men unsatisfied. Solutions in the past have been varied, but likely the most efficient method would be to make society view women as inherently inferior and subordinate to men – so that the average… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

Want to make god laugh…? Make a plan.

Better to have a malleable, yet solid global strategy that incorporates all foreseeable contingencies. As far as those mythical “Greatest Generation” men? Probably the same per capita division of alpha/beta spread. PTSD does not equal alpha.

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

“This separation of Alpha exciting men from dependable (but boring) Beta men is a direct result of the social “empowerment” women have been afforded, and socially engineered by the Feminine Imperative, for the past 5 generations.” Now then boss.The dual strategy is at least as old as the hills out front here, where the action of this old song allegedly took place, maybe 500 years back. ““Would you forsake your house and home, Would you forsake your baby? Would you forsake your own true love And the promises you gave me?” “Why did you leave your house and land? Why… Read more »

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

Still not seeing why I should bother. I don’t want to work out or work on my game. I’d only be doing it to please women. It does not please me.

You’re still plugged in if you’re bothering with women. Still playing their game.

Will
Guest
Will

@ROLLO

Do you think the profession of being a doctor (internal medicine or surgery) is alpha or beta? Something tells me beta, but I may be in my way to med school and that’s confusing me

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

I’d rather have a Prius than a truck. I don’t care if it gets women wet.

zdr01dz
Guest

young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful. That describes a subset of the female population, but it doesn’t describe all female behavior. According to the US… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Will:

Dr. Watson

vs

Dr. House

It’s not the job. Lots of surgeons in particular are very alpha, and tend to draw the ire of other healthcare practitioners as a result of their arrogance and grandstanding. But I’ve also seen alpha charisma used for the benefit of patients, so it’s not always a negative even from a quality-of-care standpoint.

Longer way of repeating Rollo above, really. Alpha is a state of mind. You can’t get it or lose it by money, career choices, or any other externality.

Joe Commenter
Guest
Joe Commenter

@Mentats. It does not take THAT much extra alpha to easily get a better class of women than before. Just do your approaches, go on your dates and work on your game. It will not take long before you notice that every women acts/reacts according to a similar script. With repetition you will be able to game the girls because you will have seen and heard all of their BS before and it will not phase you. It all just comes down to practice.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

zdr01dz: I think the trend is exaggerated as well. I think the biomechanics behind the theory are solid and useful, but there definitely is some tendency in the ‘sphere to act as though the stereotypical case is the average case.

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

@Joe Commenter

I don’t want to do any of that because I don’t want to waste my time with women. I don’t like people all that much.

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

“If you’re not doing your best, you’re screwing the pooch”.

noExcuseTomorrow
Guest
noExcuseTomorrow

I just partially agree with your notion about women not wanting ans beeing able to habe AF ans BB at the sime time. While that might be true during their peak SMV years it changes later on. I read an ‘article’ in a big german news Paper about polyamory ans the change of The concept of love ans relationship. The woman ( in her late twenties) enthusiastically described how great it is that besides her old boyfriend (BB) she has a second one now (AF) and how that takes the pressure from the individual to fulfill every need. Of course… Read more »

Striver
Guest
Striver

Since I “inspired” this post I guess I should respond. My tale of woe is practically a cliche, it seems. Soon to be ex is frivorcing me for another man. 8 years of marriage, 3 kids. I was 38 and she was 28 when we met. I’m a good looking guy, earn enough, super smart, but I was really challenged socially and admit to little or no game. I was finally starting to initiate at that point because I hated my life. She was right on schedule to settle down and pop out babies. She dated a player for a… Read more »

Joe Blow
Guest
Joe Blow

>>>only apex Alpha celebrity men are in anyway believable, but mostly due to women creating this optimized character for themselves. Bingo. Can’t tell you how many men I’ve known who are flat out dangerous and effective at anything they try, but because they are restrained and focused they come across to women as herbs. Some don’t, and you’ll find some pretty amazing women married to special ops guys and such, but often it’s not the case. Lot of military guys like this. There’s something in the merits to Alpha and Beta but a lot of both is just fantasy on… Read more »

zdr01dz
Guest

@ forgethesky I think the trend is exaggerated as well. I think the biomechanics behind the theory are solid and useful, but there definitely is some tendency in the ‘sphere to act as though the stereotypical case is the average case. If you believe that women know their market value (many do) the theory of efficient markets predicts that a significant number will sell (marry) at or around peak SMV. According to US Census data that prediction appears to be true. It’s been my experience that women who don’t settle down by age 25 are disproportionately unattractive, crazy or both.… Read more »

zdr01dz
Guest

@ Rollo
Median age of first marriage in the US 29 for men 27 for women. Average 28.

My age 25 for women comes from the year 2000 so your age 27 is probably more accurate for today. But with an average courtship of around 2 years it suggests the same basic scenario is in play for many women. No doubt your paragraph described with laser-like accuracy the females who buy into the FI and ride the cock carousel into their early 30s. One in four women have genital herpes and I have a feeling I know their demographic.

Bromeo
Guest
Bromeo

wait, if how society is now and how it was back in the day, its basically the same, before hypergamy was restricted 100’s of years ago, that’s what its all leading too, but if natural alpha’s operate in the fi, what does that make us? seems we are trying to somehow fight evolution to favour us, unnaturally

Bromeo
Guest
Bromeo

Im also pretty baked right now…

Steve
Guest
Steve

@Striver This sums it up, right here: “I do think Game is inherently feminine. It’s like angling to be a house Negro in the antebellum South. We know we can do better.” Is Game incorrect? Of course not: anyone who has practiced it realizes truth for truth. Is it merely a stepping stone into a better life, to be outgrown and dutifully discarded? Yes. As Rollo posits, it is inarguably true that females want both alpha genes and beta provisioning… it is wired into them. Can they get them both in a male who would rather not pursue the “inherently… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

Everyone claiming Game is inherently feminine is Doing It Wrong ™ I suspect. Not to say I’m doing it 100% right, but the better I get at it, the less I feel like I’m actually playing the female game. They’re forced to enter my world on my terms, and they beg to be in it when I hit all the right cues. I’m laughing at them the whole time and never taking them seriously. I frustrate them by doing what I want every time they demand something of me, and it just makes them wetter. Certainly seems a lot less… Read more »

Lucky White Male
Guest
Lucky White Male

Rollo, Torero claims that girls would * ideally * like to find Alpha (r-selected fuck) and Beta (k-selected resources) in the same man. That this CAN exist. But that this is very rare for it to exist in the same man. So what we see in the world is girls are forced to pursue a dual strategy So my question on this post to clarify – Are you saying girls * do not actually want * R and K in the same man? Not clear whether you are saying they prefer 2 different men. Or that if a R/K superstar… Read more »

Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
Guest

Everything you’re doing, you’re doing to get laid. Your “frame” is bullshit rationalization. Don’t give me that “I do it for me” horse shit either. You aren’t being alpha for shits and giggles, you’re doing because it’s what they want. You’re nothing more than a house slave.

Jeremy
Guest

I wouldn’t necessarily call game “feminine”… but it is a response to a massive shoveling of female problems into male hands. Women want someone else to optimize their hypergamy for them. But, as in any aspect of life, when you give up a responsibility, you lose authority/power. Game is an adaptation to turn the female unwillingness to optimize their own hypergamy into a male power over their decisions.

Ang Aamer
Guest

“The mistake in this, of course, is presuming women have the foresight to identify and appreciate the aspects that should satisfy an optimized state of Hypergamy. What Good Guys don’t consider is that women simply don’t have the depth of experience with men needed to recognize or appreciate ‘the best of both types’ at various phases of their maturity.” These are some of the best words written here… I think that the effectiveness of Game leads us to the female mind reality. Women are Unconscious actors in mating. They are not conscious of their actions this is why they insist… Read more »

Barrichello
Guest
Barrichello

Yeah, right. Now put that truck next to a Maserati or Aston Martin and you get a shit shoveling redneck (or a guy that fixes the toilet at best) vs wall street alpha ashole. Using a commercial that asks kids, old people, and fucking women about anything is anti red pill. That’s some mainstreem bullshit right there

ManPersonNumber6762
Guest
ManPersonNumber6762

There will probably be more “pre-cuckolding” going on. Young women have their “love child” with the alpha, then marry up the appreciative, compliant beta. So many blue pill men have no problem marrying single mothers, especially if she still has remnants of her youthful attractiveness, at least for now. So, as I see it, alphas can still breed with women with no problem. I know many blended families where I see this going on now. Until these clueless, idiot blue pill men discover this thing called the “internet” and all of the information it contains, nothing will change with them.… Read more »

Flip
Guest
Flip

I remember reading an article a few months ago about a sociological study of a black lower-class neighborhood in some large city where no one marries and all the children are illegitimate. Supposedly a large number of the children from many women were fathered by a small number of males in the neighborhood and so there were many half-siblings who didn’t even know they were related. It does seem like that primate structure is what happens when females don’t need males for provisioning.

KId Jupiter
Guest
KId Jupiter

Rollo, this woman blogger who you quoted/linked to – Lauren Martin – is a textbook example of female delusion and solipsism. I read the linked post “I’d Rather Cry Over an Asshole […]” and it just confirms everything you and Roissy have been writing about. I then read some of her other posts and was cringing at the level of delusion. Check this one out: http://elitedaily.com/dating/womanizer-and-a-gentleman/928136/ All of the 25 points she makes are Red Pill eye-opening, but especially enlightening as to the modern female perspective is this nugget from that post: “Womanizers like looking for a hole; gentlemen will… Read more »

Native Baltimoron
Guest

Game is essentially applying linear reasoning to identify and mimic behaviors which attract women; lived experience and social science research both support the core principles of game. You can call it feminine and thus unworthy of men if you like, but, realistically, you are rationalizing your decision to take your balls and go home, a decision which is likely a buffer against rejection.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Ang Aamer: “I think that the effectiveness of Game leads us to the female mind reality. Women are Unconscious actors in mating. They are not conscious of their actions this is why they insist on not being held accountable.” I suspect this is accurate. It’s a hard thing for men to grasp, because even if you can get really involved in the process of seduction/sex, you still have a sense of being in control and having agency, however compromised. With girls it seems you give the right input and their ordinary conscious self just isn’t there any more. I could… Read more »

Throughfare
Guest
Throughfare

Hey @Rollo > in today’s sexual marketplace women simply don’t believe the > average man is capable of being the best of both types > women aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta > trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at > the same time Not wanting to take easy shots at a place where a lot of good has been done for many lost beta souls, but I’ve spent a some interesting hours perusing the Married Man Sex Life site. It seems that the above idea, that a guy needs to have a mix of alpha… Read more »

10x10
Guest
10x10

Politics is also forcing this sexual dystopia we are seeing. We have the welfare state, egalitarian/Leftist marriage law, inflationary central banking, central planning interventionism (especially with wages), the regulatory framework, etc. All of these are on one level what Ayn Rand would have called parasitism on the producer class. But on a deeper level they are a direct parasitism on men and particular white men. The egalitarian themed modern welfare states that exist in the west are all a defacto war against the beta male and serve to undermine his SMV. In the current political/economic climate, women are not incentivized… Read more »

Throughfare
Guest
Throughfare

Postscript: This is the well-known lover vs. provider dichotomy that the PUA-sphere has known for years.

Women are hardwired to behave differently, sexually, with men they have placed in the Povider area of their mind, than they will with men they have placed in their Lover area. As our friend who discovered a video of his wife doing things with *groups* of jerkboys that she was refusing to do with him, found out to his chagrin (http://therationalmale.com/2013/12/03/saving-the-best/)

Of course, real pickup artistry always depends on learning the skills of placing yourself in the lover category right from the start.

10x10
Guest
10x10

@throughfare You write: “To wit, a guy who is not willing to be a jerkboy alpha 100% will inevitably have a compromised sex life if he remains in a mono-, married relationship with any woman.” Athol disagrees with this and so do I. You’ve never been married if you think that you can get away with 100% asshole game with your wife and have a successful marriage. Also, “asshole game” is itself a problematic term. What game is based on is the art of male psychological dominance. A truly dominant man doesn’t need to be an “asshole”. He needs to… Read more »

caprizchka
Guest

@Jeremy: “Do men actually prefer large boobs or are they acting according to instinct?” I think you’ll find men on all points of the boob-admiring spectrum. “At some point, one has to acknowledge that people are what they are, acknowledged instincts or not.” Since not *all* women engage in feral behavior or split the male archetypes for her own purposes then I guess that some just aren’t “people” then? “The best part about male stereotypes is how often they fail.” That goes for stereotyping or “profiling” in general, however, we all do it. I suppose I could be hypnotized to… Read more »

Throughfare
Guest
Throughfare

@10×10

I’m afraid you don’t “get” it.

You’re confusing Jerkboy-ness with someting else.

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

check this out boys, hypergamy everywhere.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=65266

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

http://www.wunrn.com/news/2012/11_12/11_12/111212_high.htm

no wonder their men becomes terrorists .

Striver
Guest
Striver

Okay. I’ll acknowledge that Game is one of the tools that men have. One of them. Call it cleverness, trickery, strategizing, whatever. Let me give an example of someone gaming someone else in a patriarchy. In the Bible there is the story of how Jacob obtained his wives. He starts working for another man, Boaz, I believe. Jacob wanted to marry Boaz’ daughter, Rachel. Boaz had another daughter, Leah, who was plain. Rachel was pretty. Boaz required Jacob to work for him for seven years before Jacob could marry his daughter. Jacob works the seven years, asks to marry Boaz’… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Mentats! Everything you’re doing, you’re doing to get laid. Your “frame” is bullshit rationalization. Don’t give me that “I do it for me” horse shit either. You aren’t being alpha for shits and giggles, you’re doing because it’s what they want. You’re nothing more than a house slave. Incorrect. YOU would do all these things to get laid, then surmise correctly that YOU would be submitting to a woman’s frame to do them because YOU genuinely can’t do them for yourself right now. Don’t put that on me. – I bought a new suit recently simply because I looked at… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Hum. Point of order, Striver: ‘Boaz’ = Laban. Boaz was the patriarch in Ruth. Also, Jacob got to marry both of the girls after the first seven years, but was contractually obligated to work seven beyond that as a condition to get Rachel. So they had the same time window for reproduction.

Anyways, don’t think it conflicts with your point at all.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

10×10: “Athol’s presentation may be “purple pill” but his advice / system is a solid workable system for men who are married. Its actionable unlike 99% of bitchfest you get with the Manosphere.”

True, any help in making men understand their gender will help a lot. But I think a much superior approach to LTR is at the Narciso’s (defunct) blog I referenced earlier:

https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/to-whatever-self-be-true/
https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-2/
https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-3-the-formula/

It’s more advanced stuff, but excellent. Too bad there’s so little of it….

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Jeremy Game is an adaptation to turn the female unwillingness to optimize their own hypergamy into a male power over their decisions. Motherfucking this. @Baltimoron You can call it feminine and thus unworthy of men if you like, but, realistically, you are rationalizing your decision to take your balls and go home, a decision which is likely a buffer against rejection. And motherfucking this. These two comments are what I was saying but more succinct. As I learn in wing chun, you take your opponents energy and use it against them. The harder they throw themselves in to their attack,… Read more »

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