Two Camps

I thought this was an interesting take from Striver in this week’s comments. I think this part has some merit…

Once gut level violence is tempered, men want to be the hero, the doer, who is rewarded for his deeds by a woman or women. Game is inherently feminine, an admission that women have won. Game involving talking and “communication” – does that sound masculine?

However, I disagree with him here…

As far as whether Game is necessary, any sex that doesn’t produce surviving offspring is just recreation. If your n count is 100, and no babies are produced or all potential babies are aborted, then it’s the same as n count 0 except for how it makes you feel. If women choose to sleep with the alpha players, then have babies with the beta shlubs, that’s the COMPLETE game.

This fundamentally ignores the biological root of women’s Hypergamy. The ideal evolutionary outcome is for a woman to optimize Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. Ideally a woman who breeds and consolidates on monogamy with a man best exemplifying these aspects is the evolutionary “winner”. If that’s not possible, or not optimal, the ideal evolutionary winner is the woman who breeds with an Alpha Fucks man, and consolidates provisioning with a Beta Bucks man.

A lot of Blue Pill men feel a sense of vindication for the Epiphany Phase “success” they finally get with women once their long-term usefulness to women finally outweighs women’s ability to attract more Alpha Fucks ideal men. It’s a validation of their self-styled perseverance and some qualifier of  what they convince themselves is the ‘real‘ attractiveness women have for that self-righteous Beta provisioning.

The fact is that this is an old-order, old-SMP misbelief. In all of the eras preceding the advent of unilaterally feminine controlled birth control both sexes shared in the social responsibility of controlling women’s innate Hypergamy (AF/BB). However left to her own, unconditioned, expectation to responsibly assume control of her Hypergamy, women default to separate ideals for Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks.

In other words, women prefer a breeding model that separates men into two different varieties – the kinds of men women want to fuck and the kind they want to marry – or “the kind of man your mother wants you to marry and the kind of guy you leave him for to be with.”

So ensaturated into our social fabric is this understanding that even men will reinforce the archetypes. I have a 16 year old daughter, and even Rollo Tomassi would want his girl to be with ‘truck guy’ instead of ‘girly car guy’. Across all generations it just makes better sense, right?

I’ve mentioned this before in the Myth of the Good Guy. It’s amazing to me that men still seem to think they can embody the nobler aspects of both the Alpha Jerk and the comforting Beta to become a mythical Good Guy that women will naturally recognize, appreciate and prefer in comparison to the Jerkish Alpha Bad Boy or the Sympish Beta Nice Guy. The sell is one of combining the best of both archetypes and thereby satisfying women’s need for an optimized Hypergamy.

The mistake in this, of course, is presuming women have the foresight to identify and appreciate the aspects that should satisfy an optimized state of Hypergamy. What Good Guys don’t consider is that women simply don’t have the depth of experience with men needed to recognize or appreciate ‘the best of both types’ at various phases of their maturity.

For instance, young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful.

Yet even for an older, presumedly wiser, generation, the resourceful Alpha “has more sex appeal” than the sensitive, attentive, comforting Beta Herb male.

“I’d Rather Cry Over An Asshole Than Date A Guy Who Bores Me”

At least with the dick, there’s a spark there — even if it’s just one you’re trying to catch. At least with the asshole, you’re wasting your time on someone entertaining. At least with the guy who’ll bring you undeniable rage and pain, there’s a feeling there.

The problem with Good Guy ambitions of being the best of both Alpha excitement and Beta comfort is that women are incapable of appreciating either of these aspects simultaneously. The predominant need women feel for Beta comfort, dependability and provisioning during their Epiphany Phase just prior to the Wall is unrelatable to a woman in her peak SMV years when her predominant sexual focus is on exciting Alpha recklessness.

I speculated in Myth of the Good Guy that in today’s sexual marketplace women simply don’t believe the average man is capable of being the best of both types. I still hold to that assertion – only apex Alpha celebrity men are in anyway believable, but mostly due to women creating this optimized character for themselves. However, and probably more importantly, women aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at the same time.

This separation of Alpha exciting men from dependable (but boring) Beta men is a direct result of the social “empowerment” women have been afforded, and socially engineered by the Feminine Imperative, for the past 5 generations.

This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for Socialized Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women, Hypergamy doesn’t recognize men who embody a long term optimization of Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. Instead Hypergamy, unfettered by social restraint, prefers short term mating with exciting, but dangerous Alpha genetic potential, and an enforced long term responsibility to the cuckoldry of parentally invested, emotionally invested, dependable Beta providers.

The separate need for these archetypes does not occur at the same time in a woman’s progression of maturity. In fact the only area of overlapping need for these types is exactly the pre-Wall ages of 29-31 for women (i.e. the Epiphany Phase), the age range when the majority consensus of women agree that they want to marry and settle down.

From a strictly evolutionary perspective Striver’s assertion that Betas get the last laugh in the genetic olympics is correct. Nice Guys may finish last, but no one says they don’t finish at all. But do they finish best?

Unfortunately, on a subconscious level, women’s sexual strategies, which then translate into social doctrine, develop contingencies for duping Betas into provisioning for children not their own, or are ‘outsourced’ as parents once they’ve been removed from the family unit. Either that or they’re relegated to progressively sexless status of nominally male providership and parental investment.

A Beta fathering children is common, but there’s more to raising a child than just the combining of alleles.

Are Cads Outbanging Dads?

You’ll notice I titled this post “Are the cads outbanging the dads?” That was deliberate, because there remain questions about whether cads are actually breeding more or less than dads. Outbanging is different than outbreeding. A woman could casually ignore potential beta dads throughout her teens and 20s (her prime years) for a sterile ride on the cock carousel with alpha males, only to settle down later with a beta male and bear him 1.8 children. Cheap and easy contraceptives thwart the natural procreation advantage that alpha males would normally have over beta males in the state of nature, so it is very possible that alpha males could be winning the Banging Sweepstakes while losing the Breeding Sweepstakes.

Evidence that cad outbanging and supercharged female hypergamy is occurring resides in the later age of first marriage rates, and the lower overall marriage rate, as well as the higher STD rates among women.

And there is evidence for cad outbreeding as well. Serial monogamy — which is a form of soft polygyny — is on the rise, and men who have had more than one partner have more childrenthan men married to one woman.

On the other side of the debate are the GSS (General Social Survey) gurus who marshal self-reported evidence that dads are winning the breeding wars over cads.

I remain skeptical of the GSS data, but give it its due. My contention has never been that cads are having more children, but rather that cads are having more premarital sex than dads with higher quality (read: better looking) women when those women are in their sexual primes. This, not the discrepancy in fertility rates between alpha and beta males, is the contraceptively-aided shock wave that is roiling the sexual market and upending organic rules thousands, perhaps millions, of years old.

A society of both cad ascendence and civilization is unsustainable and incompatible. One or the other will go, and the pendulum with either swing back to dads or civilization will regress to accommodate the rise of women choosing cads. All social and economic indicators (particularly the debt overhang), and my personal experience in the bowels of the dating market, lead me to be pessimistic about a happy resolution to this building tension. Hopefully, I’m wrong, but in the meantime I’ll do what is necessary to secure my pleasure.

If the Chevy Colorado commercial is any gauge of our current sexual marketplace (and I realize it was supposed to be satirical), the female meta-desire for Alpha breeding opportunities far outstrips any notion that more Beta men are the preferred long-term parental mating choice of optimized Hypergamy.

This commercial is yet another shinning example of mainstream society’s increasing comfort with Open Hypergamy. In that post I outlined the conflict that occurs between women comfortable and prideful about revealing the duplicity of their sexual strategy, and the women less able to capitalize on that openness and cling to a secretive Hypergamy. However, men too are invested in that conflict.

When laws mandate a father be held financially and provisionally responsible for children that are not biologically his own (either by his choice or a woman’s overt cuckoldry) you can see how Hypergamy is literally an imperative that directs men’s lives to optimize it. In a social order founded upon women’s unrestricted Hypergamous influences no man, Truck Guy or Prius Guy, is ever truly the father of his child.

221 comments

  1. As far as Striver’s comment, it sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of game. Talking is only a surface level behavior, what attracts the woman is subcommunication and physical leading, not lines or routines. Naturals apply the same principles as PUAs, though subconsciously. In my blue pill days I thought I’d be “rewarded for my deeds”, but now I see this is foolhardy. I don’t expect anything from a woman that I don’t attract through directly arousing her by my behavior. Game is just an understanding of female behavior, not a reliance on societally enforced restrictions on female hypergamy, which for better or for worse are now gone in America.

    Your end point sums it up though, both the Alpha and the Beta are going to pay alimony and child support if it comes to that.

  2. So, in other words (per Myth of the Good Guy), Sirtyrion was correct. I suppose Robert Greene was right:

    “Law 32

    Play to People’s Fantasies

    The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant. Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes for disenchantment. Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert: Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses. “

  3. “In other words, women prefer a breeding model that separates men into two different varieties – the kinds of men women want to fuck and the kind they want to marry – or “the kind of man your mother wants you to marry and the kind of guy you leave him for to be with.””

    Do women actually prefer this model or are they acting according to instinct? I use the “they” pronoun because I’m not a breeder and therefore can’t really weigh in as a woman on that level (albeit, as usual, I break the molds defined by this blog). As for my mother, she’s no great judge of character herself so who she would want for me hasn’t ever been relevant.

    Also wouldn’t a woman have a sense that having sex with a beta was like incest and otherwise be revolted by the notion? Or are all wives whores? I agree that any guy who attempts to pander to female tastes is revolting. It’s like some sort of aberration.

    Yes to the truck guy. The economy car guy is probably some academic who records his mileage in a little notebook in the glove compartment and may or may not ever get tenure. The truck guy however even if he doesn’t have a real job, can probably fix things or at least haul stuff and that’s more valuable in this economy.

  4. @Rollo

    “This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for Socialized Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women”

    This right here is huge. All men need to brace themselves for what the FI and female hypergamy is leading to in the future of our society. Bascially, we are coming full circle back to how it was in the wild with animals, the Alpha’s will get all the female resources and Beta’s will get the crumbs.

    Alpha up.

  5. The idealized mix of both is pre sex liberation. When marriage was more vigorously enforced as well as monogamy, then a woman would be (and her family) evaluating a suitor on both the maximum of both attributes that he provides because that was to a large extent the “deal” and women tried to get a man that would provide the best combination in her mind for those needs. And men were elevated in status to help this process.

    The epiphany is actually two stages the first is at 25, this is the beginning of the draw toward the beta side of things. It is a prime age for older men to attract younger women with daddy issues (and the majority of women now have daddy issues). Women start to think about having a long term boyfriend, women still start getting married at this point (or have friends that do) the college party years are starting to fall behind. This is also a prime time for first marriages to fall apart if they did get married.

    29-31 and unmarried (or older) is the concerned period, any woman not married at this point is in full on got to get married mode. I have watched this play out over and over

  6. It is essential to be able to beat a woman at her own game. Communications.

    Funny enough the fm was having the “I want to have your babies” tingle (we have 4 and are past the stage…) last night. None the less it made her feel real good. She jumped my bones this morning.

    Make babies. If you are strong enough.

  7. Also wouldn’t a woman have a sense that having sex with a beta was like incest and otherwise be revolted by the notion?

    This is what women mean when they LJBF a guy by saying “I think of you as a brother.”

    What she’s saying is “I’d consider sex with you to be incest.”

  8. @caprizchka

    Do women actually prefer this model or are they acting according to instinct?

    Do men actually prefer large boobs or are they acting according to instinct?

    At some point, one has to acknowledge that people are what they are, acknowledged instincts or not.

    Yes to the truck guy. The economy car guy is probably some academic who records his mileage in a little notebook in the glove compartment and may or may not ever get tenure.

    The best part about male stereotypes is how often they fail. In fact, that is one of the aspects of being male that I appreciate the most. Specifically the fact that I can always surprise people, particularly women, with the truth about me.

  9. Rollo writes the female meta-desire for Alpha breeding opportunities far outstrips any notion that more Beta men are the preferred long-term parental mating choice of…

    This is now embedded through all popular media that most people, for whatever reasons, choose to spend away time in their lives absorbing.

    At whatever age, do whatever it takes, spend whatever it takes, get to the gym every day to be on the fast track to creating new habits to be perceived as the opposite of beta. Sure, the real and specific changes naturally attract lovely women. The same changes also work well when you’re a mission driven entrepreneur, etc

  10. This whole Alphafux/Betabux is probably going to make me ignore women altogether eventually. I am the type of man who made European Civilisation possible. These “women” take it for granted and ignore good, decent men.

    I can think of NOTHING (aside from cuckoldry) more disrespectful than this blatant lane-changing.

  11. That commercial is awesome. I honestly have nothing else to add to this discussion Halfway through it i was thinking of getting one then i realized that’s exactly what they wanted me to think.

  12. Hey Northy thanks for giving me something else to comment on. What is a good “decent” man? Most likely its an image you were conditioned to believe. I don’t think ignoring women is the answer. Since you are now a man with knowledge that most men lack you have an advantage that most men don’t. Use it to make your relationships suit your purposes or else they (women) will have you suit theirs

  13. RE: Truck vs. Prius “choice”

    Law 31: Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards You Deal
    The best deceptions are the ones that seem to give the other person a choice: Your victims feel they are in control, but are actually your puppets.

    See what they did, there?

  14. ““This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for SOCIALIZED Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women””

    I don’t see that the AF BB separation is instinctually evolved. I think it is an artifact of you go girrrll feminism.

    Pre-civilization, women started breeding shortly after puberty in harsh conditions. They needed to have strong instincts for both AF and BB function seeking right out of the box. Sure, there might be a desire for EPCs if the mate isn’t AF enough. But the risks and difficulty in keeping this covert in small tribes makes it more efficient for them to seek both AF and BB in the same man.

  15. “The Diplomat

    February 6th, 2015 at 5:59 pm

    RE: Truck vs. Prius “choice”

    Law 31: Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards You Deal
    The best deceptions are the ones that seem to give the other person a choice: Your victims feel they are in control, but are actually your puppets.

    See what they did, there?”

    Set up a false dichotomy?

  16. @Mentats!

    The initial anger and despair of swallowing the Red Pill eventually goes away. But ONLY if you change yourself with what you now see. It means fully realizing that you’ve believed a set of carefully cultivated lies that were not designed to benefit you, and accepting that you are not a solitary fool because of it (we’ve all been duped), AND that you now have (or can easily acquire) the knowledge to affect intersexual outcomes to your favor in a way you never could before (if you choose to do so).

  17. @jacklabear

    False dichotomies are the basis of virtually every apparent “choice” that is offered to the weak by the powerful. Never order off the standard menu if you can avoid it.

  18. The Diplomat

    “Never order off the standard menu if you can avoid it.”

    I get shit around here for doing that 😉

  19. @jacklabear

    There’s always another restaurant just around the corner that’s willing to accommodate the discerning patron.

    As Rollo is fond of pointing out, it serves a man better to avoid thinking in strictly binary terms–and especially when it comes to cultivating or maintaining an effective Red Pill mindset.

  20. @jacklabear

    Right before I was about to post the quote below, I noticed your avatar was a picture of a dog—so, just to be clear, no correlation between the two things.

    “Diplomacy is the art of saying ‘Nice doggie’ until you can find a rock.”
    —Will Rogers

  21. The ideal evolutionary outcome is for a woman to optimize Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. Ideally a woman who breeds and consolidates on monogamy with a man best exemplifying these aspects is the evolutionary “winner”.

    This is only true if Alpha is fit for breeding children today. It’s quite possible Mr. Alpha will have less grandchildren than Beta has. In that case, Mr. Alpha is only a relic of what was ONCE successful and women are in the process of changing their preferences. Without more war, Alpha may be entering the dustbin of history.

    Actually, all of the West looks headed down the extinction road except Trads who eschew birth control, so that’s the evolutionary future in the West. All the rest of the West is unfit and slated for extinction. TFR must be 2.1 at least to even be in the game, and I doubt many Alphas get this done.

  22. An early heads up,
    To some present and future commenters

    It’s not between a truck or a hybrid car or a guy with a horse and a guy with a donkey , you’re missing the point here.

    Never underestimate a woman’s ability to spot a man who exhibited beta or alpha traits. So yes, we all love to bet on the strong horse and women love it a bit more.
    It’s all about exhibiting the right traits.
    Even mothers tend to like/adore the son who is more alpha than his beta brother(she still love the beta son out of pity because she knows he’s weak) . It’s her own hypergamy that can spot the difference.

    I as a man get turned off when spotting a boring beta, imagine how a woman feels?

  23. @jacklabear
    Good indicator that I needed to increase my screen zoom. Thanks.

    @Mentats!
    Muscles, looks, and PUA tech certainly don’t hurt. But, for you, working to change your intensely negative self-perception by focusing everything you can muster on your own inherent value by increasing your existing strengths, knowledge, and skills–even learning new ones–will get you further than dwelling on what you perceive you can’t do or will never be. Spend the entirety of the next year on that pursuit alone (forget about women altogether) and I guarantee you will notice a marked difference in your self-undermining attitude. You might even decide to opt for a second year.

    It’s not about getting women. It’s about you getting better.

  24. Hi Rollo,

    One question I have is about the combination of Alpha dominance and Beta provider traits that women supposedly should. In our evolutionary past wouldn’t it have been mostly men that possessed both of these traits that would have been the preferred partners for women? As I understand it the split between Alphas for fucks and Betas for bucks only occurred fairly recently due to a number of consequences of modernity. So shouldn’t a woman’s innate Hypergamous optimization still be seeking the best of both worlds?

  25. Moody – “So shouldn’t a woman’s innate Hypergamous optimization still be seeking the best of both worlds?”

    It is.

    The best option today is to hire out those services based on specialization. Alpha fucks, a Beta for “emotional” support, government for basic provisioning.

    Men do the same. We hire maids, pay others to cook our food, all the chores of wife are hired out. Spinning plates is just is just one way to hire out sexual services.

  26. “When laws mandate a father be held financially and provisionally responsible for children that are not biologically his own (either by his choice or a woman’s overt cuckoldry) you can see how Hypergamy is literally an imperative that directs men’s lives to optimize it. ”

    It shocks people the law is not written with any regard for the husband.

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/paternity-issues-child-support-29847.html

    “In some states, any of these presumptions of paternity is considered conclusive, which means it cannot be disproven, even with contradictory blood tests.”

    Take note, even with evidence, a judge could say too much time has elapsed and beta bucks is on the hook for ex-alpha boyfriend’s spawn. Many states set a time limit, say after 5 years they are on the hook for another man’s child.

    ‘A presumed father must pay child support.”

    The law states when the wife bangs her Alpha Ex-boyfriend and gets pregnant, beta bucks is PRESUMED the father unless he spends money to challenge it in court. That assumes he learns right away; most won’t learn until it is way too late…

  27. “Game is inherently feminine, an admission that women have won. Game involving talking and “communication” – does that sound masculine?”

    Nick nails this one with: “Talking is only a surface level behavior, what attracts the woman is subcommunication and physical leading, not lines or routines. Naturals apply the same principles as PUAs, though subconsciously”

    It’s not the words I’m saying, it’s what those words subcommunicate to her about who I am. We start guys out with fancy wordy routines because it’s the easiest way to teach/learn but over time (WITH FIELD EXPERIENCE lol) the guy learns what his words are subcommunicating and starts to strip them down and apply those subcomms to words that shouldn’t normally have those meanings.

    So when you’re good you can pick girls up without saying a word or saying minimal words because your body language, eye contact, tonality, the way you touch her, etc all subcommunicates “I’m a guy who’s used to fucking beautiful women” and you no longer need to tell that elaborate story about dating a stripper. Or you can actively say and do things that SHOULD be unattractive but become attractive because you’ve added attractive subcomms to them.

    Guys take a looooong time to understand the idea of subcomms let alone to master them. But the Natural is giving off those subcomms just because he has more field experience with women than the AFC because he was dating in high school while the AFC wasn’t.

    But like, they’re not separate things. PUAs aren’t getting laid in a different way than an alpha Natural “man”. The subcomms are the same because those subcomms are what create attraction even if it’s temporary. Without them, there is no attraction and no lay.

    That’s why you can’t escape game. Anyone who has ever fucked a girl consciously or subconsciously or by sheer fluke alignment of the stars executed the attractive subcomms we explain and train guys to execute. (except prostitution of course lol)

    The game is ALWAYS happening everywhere all around you and everyone is by default forced to play it. So you can either learn to get GOOD at it or stay average/mediocre/bad at it. But make no mistake: whether you want to or not you are playing the game.

    (I talked about this a bit more in depth over at CH recently, check my latest archives if you want to read up on it)

  28. I think it’s important to consider that in pre-sexual revolution times (not to mention evolutionary past) women’s Hypergamy was mitigated by the high probability of her becoming pregnant with the child of a man who she chose or had chosen for her.

    Women’s acculturation and upbringing included a very different precautioning with regards to her filtering for the right man. As a result the Hypergamously optimized man would more likely be a dependable, resourceful Alpha.

    In a post-sexual revolution era where women unilaterally control which child will be born and to whom there is no need for the previous old-order precautioning in their upbringing. Thus that socialization becomes one of preparing a woman for a condition in which unrestrained Hypergamy is the default.

    Men are still conditioned using the old set of books, or are taught to loath their gender and be more feminine identifying. Beta sensitivity, supplication and deference are common and cheap in men. This then emphasizes (perhaps overly) men who are more Alpha.

  29. I wonder if this can play out in divorces grouping around a certain age of their children, if they have any. An age when women feel any children are old enough to better handle it.
    Epiphany phase, get married, have the kids, wait, kids old enough, end marriage, “rediscover herself”

  30. Also pre-sexual revolution, open hypergamy took a back seat when people didn’t know which public well was giving people cholera.

  31. The Diplomat: “RE: Truck vs. Prius “choice”
    Law 31: Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards You Deal
    The best deceptions are the ones that seem to give the other person a choice: Your victims feel they are in control, but are actually your puppets.
    See what they did, there?”

    I know it’s not the point of this post, but I’d be interested to see a comparison between that truck and a sports car in the same price range – a corvette maybe, so as to not confound results with foreign ‘exotic’ appeal. That would help isolate different kinds of potentially attractive demeanors and their pros and cons.

  32. So M Simon’s activist proposal to make paternity checking mandatory (or at least normalized) sounds increasingly good to me…

    We can’t fix this situation totally, but we can at least attempt damage control. Good male contraceptives, which may be quickly arriving (vasalgel), may help a bit too. Anything to twist a bit of parenting power in men’s favor really, we’re fighting with two hands tied behind our backs and three horse tranquilizers stuck in our ass at this point.

  33. Even with legally required paternity testing and contraceptives; There’s still the state which is the back-up-daddy. Until women recognize (through enforced consequences) that they can’t just go fuck without using their brains, some form of open hypergamy is likely here to stay.

    Most of you have likely seen this gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzspsovNvII

  34. Jeremy: Certainly, I’m just looking for winnable battles to shift the odds a bit. Even some small leverage, though not comparable to the economic clout of a gigantic state subsidizing poor decisions, is worth something.

  35. @Water Cannon Boy

    Comparing the data of three different peer-reviewed, clinical studies, it appears the average age of children in divorce scenarios is roughly 9 years old.

    I think you may be onto something.

  36. @Jeremy

    Im thinking dismantle will never happen. Curbing it might though. Refusing welfare benefits to anyone not on birth control might be a good start. Kicking women off it that get pregnant while on it would also work. Not a complete removal, but might be politically doable… well, until the tradcons whine about paying for birth control or something.

    @Mr T.

    Alter the female genome. Alternatively, just get what you can from the situation and stop thinking it can be fixed; it can’t.

  37. I know the commercial was satirical and all but it’s also very telling of American manhood. That pale, pasty bag of gym muscles is what passes for alpha these days? We are well and truly fucked.

  38. Every time I come to visit the Rational Male comments section, it seems like someone is always calling for ways to shut down, mitigate, or control open hypergamy. Unfortunately, that isn’t going to ever happen on a wide scale social basis in our time–barring a complete break down of society back into an agrarian-style late stone age via some apocalyptic scenario–at which point, gaming women to get laid will be the least of your concerns. Just accept that the genie is out of the bottle. The ship has already sailed. Pick your own metaphor for it.

    In the absence of being able to affect some kind of global reform, the only sensible thing to do is to master the situation in your own daily sphere of influence and experience. If you feel beneficent enough–do help others to master theirs, too. That’s what Rollo–and others like him–have been doing all along.

  39. “Men are still conditioned using the old set of books, or are taught to loath their gender and be more feminine identifying. Beta sensitivity, supplication and deference are common and cheap in men. This then emphasizes (perhaps overly) men who are more Alpha.”

    Yup. And it’s getting worse. I am a vagina compared to oldschool rock solid dudes who were raised in a culture that respected alpha males like the 40s-50s and who went thru war and shit. They look at even the most alpha dude in my generation and think “what a pussy” I’m sure lol but what I am to them, the <25yo boys I see at the bar are to me. They are such huge vaginas that they make me look even MORE alpha.

    A big part of why I'm not planning to settle till I'm in my 40s at the earliest is that I'm looking at the long-con cause I see first-hand what the <25yo scene is like. When I was 25 I just assumed things would stay the same and at 40 I would have to compete with the same alphas I had to compete with at 25. Like I figured "oh those 22yo girls will want their alpha college peers". But what I've noticed is that feminism has turned the faucet handle of "alpha" dudes to a slow drip and will eventually turn it off entirely. So at 40 I won't HAVE competition for the <25yo girls. They will be surrounded by complete manginas who don't trigger any attraction and make me seem even MORE alpha dominant sexual authoritative etc. the <25yo girls are going to be pouring puddles when they meet me because they've never experienced "alpha" before (no fathers, no male teachers, etc).

    So for me to settle now in my early 30s with a girl who's 25, I'll be 40 with a boner but having to stick it in a 35yo and it's downhill from there. Long as I take care of my body I expect to be able to have sex through my 40s (Viagra if needed) so then I'm late 40s with a girl who's 40.

    Why not enjoy my 30s playing the field banging girls in their 20s, take care of my body, build my career and finances and overall solidify my frame as a man, then cash out at 40 with my favorite 23yo in my harem who's desperately looking for an alpha male to settle with because her peers are all mangina hipsters and she doesn't want to end up a crazy lonely old car lady like her feminist aunt?

    Pop a kid out at 45 and live a healthy lifestyle and I can toss it a football when I'm 60 no problem. Lots of older dudes are in good shape these days now that exercise and rejecting fast food for nutrition has gotten more popular.

    I fully expect to get laid more in my 30s than I did in my 20s lol there'll be a point when I'm 40 where just chatting a bartender will make <25yo girls open me trying to impress me because they're so starved to be around a man instead of the good little feminist puppets they've been surrounded by thru high school and college.

  40. Mr. T.: “Any idea how to cap the god damn hypergamy? (please don’t mention any religious idea)”

    Aside from altering human function as Sun Wukong mentions, it’s hard to find much. Forcing women to enter unions viscerally unsatisfactory to them, however accomplished, may seem like a good idea, but will generally end in misery for both men and women – the women will be unfulfilled, the men unsatisfied.

    Solutions in the past have been varied, but likely the most efficient method would be to make society view women as inherently inferior and subordinate to men – so that the average woman can viscerally feel she’s with a superior man even when they are both on par. The problem is, it’s difficult to create such a society stably without the influence of something like religion, since most rational secular impulses would refuse to endorse dogmatic overgeneralizations convincingly.

    In the end, the harsh truth is that blissful, joyous, passionate love has alway been almost exclusively the domain of the bold man and the beautiful woman united. Others can only scrabble at the scraps of such love. And some religious institutions broadened the spectrum of people who could experience it somewhat. It’s hard to replicate that effect in a secular way; religion resonates with deep parts of the human psyche, nearly as deep as sexual behaviors. So you could control things a little bit that way. With rationality? Humans feel rationality hardly at all. It has not a chance to channel or change sexual behavior.

    As a man: Learn game and be one of the bold ones. As a woman: Be beautiful and not unkind. If you cannot do one of these things, perhaps you should find other things than romantic love to be passionate about. We’ve probably exaggerated its appeal in our society anyways.

    So that’s MGTOW, I suppose. I’d only recommend it after trying game/redpill masculinity hard though, more men can succeed than they themselves may guess. I used to be pretty unconfident in myself and only recently figured out: Hey, I’m awesome. And that feeling has taken me pretty far already, in just a few months. Ha, I would not discourage any man from giving finding that a shot.

  41. Want to make god laugh…? Make a plan.

    Better to have a malleable, yet solid global strategy that incorporates all foreseeable contingencies. As far as those mythical “Greatest Generation” men? Probably the same per capita division of alpha/beta spread. PTSD does not equal alpha.

  42. “This separation of Alpha exciting men from dependable (but boring) Beta men is a direct result of the social “empowerment” women have been afforded, and socially engineered by the Feminine Imperative, for the past 5 generations.”
    Now then boss.The dual strategy is at least as old as the hills out front here, where the action of this old song allegedly took place, maybe 500 years back.

    ““Would you forsake your house and home,
    Would you forsake your baby?
    Would you forsake your own true love
    And the promises you gave me?”

    “Why did you leave your house and land?
    Why did you leave your baby?
    Why did you leave your own wedded lord
    To go with the Black Jack Davy?”

    “What care I for my house and home
    Or even my wee baby?
    What care I for my own true love
    For I love the gypsy Davey.”
    (exciting, and entertains her with songs)

    … …

    “Well it’s fare thee well my dearest dear,
    It’s fare thee well forever,
    And if you don’t return with me
    I swear you’ll see me never.”
    (abundance)

  43. Still not seeing why I should bother. I don’t want to work out or work on my game. I’d only be doing it to please women. It does not please me.

    You’re still plugged in if you’re bothering with women. Still playing their game.

  44. @ROLLO

    Do you think the profession of being a doctor (internal medicine or surgery) is alpha or beta? Something tells me beta, but I may be in my way to med school and that’s confusing me

  45. young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful.

    That describes a subset of the female population, but it doesn’t describe all female behavior. According to the US Census Bureau in the year 2000 a little more than half of women were married by the age of 25. Average courtships in the USA last just over 2 years. So roughly half of the female population settles down in their early 20s.

  46. Will:

    Dr. Watson

    vs

    Dr. House

    It’s not the job. Lots of surgeons in particular are very alpha, and tend to draw the ire of other healthcare practitioners as a result of their arrogance and grandstanding. But I’ve also seen alpha charisma used for the benefit of patients, so it’s not always a negative even from a quality-of-care standpoint.

    Longer way of repeating Rollo above, really. Alpha is a state of mind. You can’t get it or lose it by money, career choices, or any other externality.

  47. @Mentats. It does not take THAT much extra alpha to easily get a better class of women than before. Just do your approaches, go on your dates and work on your game. It will not take long before you notice that every women acts/reacts according to a similar script. With repetition you will be able to game the girls because you will have seen and heard all of their BS before and it will not phase you. It all just comes down to practice.

  48. zdr01dz: I think the trend is exaggerated as well. I think the biomechanics behind the theory are solid and useful, but there definitely is some tendency in the ‘sphere to act as though the stereotypical case is the average case.

  49. I just partially agree with your notion about women not wanting ans beeing able to habe AF ans BB at the sime time. While that might be true during their peak SMV years it changes later on. I read an ‘article’ in a big german news Paper about polyamory ans the change of The concept of love ans relationship. The woman ( in her late twenties) enthusiastically described how great it is that besides her old boyfriend (BB) she has a second one now (AF) and how that takes the pressure from the individual to fulfill every need. Of course jealousy would ne an issue in the First weeks but she said the boyfriend would have overcome (hardcore scarcity mentality in Action) this with time. I think in this case it was a late bloomer woman finally also wanting her piece of The cake while keeping the emotional and future parental support of her committed boring dad. Big emphasis was put on The male fragile ego and jealousy beeing a weakness to overcome (which is true of course but sure not by accepting beta cuckoldry) and become a goof productive cuckold supporter.

    No discussion about additional lovers of her two boyfriends toom Place, but I think it should ne clear whats going on there.

    So I think the next step of The FI is to prepare the male ego to accept open hypergamy ans seeing it as something good that is so far oppressed by their weaknesses ans insecurities. Therefore in the future we will der a lot ‘maturated’ woman with a main supporter boyfriend/husband and serial side studs (maybe woman may stray every two years or so with an alpha opportunity now but it is yet not openly embraced and advertised)

  50. Since I “inspired” this post I guess I should respond.

    My tale of woe is practically a cliche, it seems. Soon to be ex is frivorcing me for another man. 8 years of marriage, 3 kids.

    I was 38 and she was 28 when we met. I’m a good looking guy, earn enough, super smart, but I was really challenged socially and admit to little or no game. I was finally starting to initiate at that point because I hated my life.

    She was right on schedule to settle down and pop out babies. She dated a player for a couple of years before she met me; he dumped her and still she went back to him. This was all before we met.

    As far as women wanting both alpha and beta in alternating fashion, I do think if the man goes all alpha the woman will find some beta shoulder to cry on. They want both, and wanting both leaves the man fighting a two front war. I’m highly beta, she said I was kind even as she was ending the marriage, and yet she came up with ways where I wasn’t sensitive or caring enough. Women will attack on both flanks, whatever is vulnerable.

    If she was waiting to be dominated, she surely didn’t show it. She pushed back hard on any resistance I ever showed, and would do things behind my back just to have her way.

    I had my own life, own friends, and worked out and stayed in shape while she is always overweight and out of shape. But I think she just resented my being in shape anyway, so it didn’t help.

    Now the guy she’s leaving me for maybe has some alpha characteristics. Reportedly he hit on my wife’s sister the day she met her now husband. Wife knew him before we ever met. I know at the time he was dating a woman who ultimately broke up with him because he would never commit to her. That woman moved out of town and started a family with another guy.

    But if he’s alpha enough to hit on women and poach someone’s wife, what does he want with a 39 year old fat bitchy woman with three kids? I think I won that battle. Better years from her, and my genes survive while his will not. The player she dated before we married is married now too, so he’s in the same boat.

    The women want provisions from whoever fathers the kids. So even if an alpha cad knocks someone up, he’s still going to have to pay the way the same as everyone else. The women know this, which is why it doesn’t happen with the ones who have a choice. They will take provisioning from anyone.

    I do think Game is inherently feminine. It’s like angling to be a house Negro in the antebellum South. We know we can do better. My father was a beta, didn’t even make that much money. Mom worked with him, deferred in some ways, but they worked together to keep things together. This piece of crap i married tailored everything in our house to her specifications, then got bored with it all and blew it up. ‘Course my mom grew up on a farm during the Depression, while my soon to be ex got the princess treatment as the daughter of a doctor. The women of this moment are of low quality, I don’t blame those that can pull it off for pumping and dumping.

  51. >>>only apex Alpha celebrity men are in anyway believable, but mostly due to women creating this optimized character for themselves.

    Bingo. Can’t tell you how many men I’ve known who are flat out dangerous and effective at anything they try, but because they are restrained and focused they come across to women as herbs. Some don’t, and you’ll find some pretty amazing women married to special ops guys and such, but often it’s not the case. Lot of military guys like this. There’s something in the merits to Alpha and Beta but a lot of both is just fantasy on the part of women, no bearing on “hard” reality.

    Not that it makes it any less important to fit into the mold a bit. What do you figure you have better odds of doing – convincing a woman that you’re the real deal, or simply making a few lifestyle alterations to play to her fantasies. Hint: you can’t reason somebody out of a viewpoint they didn’t reason themselves into to begin with.

  52. @ forgethesky
    I think the trend is exaggerated as well. I think the biomechanics behind the theory are solid and useful, but there definitely is some tendency in the ‘sphere to act as though the stereotypical case is the average case.

    If you believe that women know their market value (many do) the theory of efficient markets predicts that a significant number will sell (marry) at or around peak SMV. According to US Census data that prediction appears to be true. It’s been my experience that women who don’t settle down by age 25 are disproportionately unattractive, crazy or both. The hottest girl in my high-school graduating class married her college boyfriend who I believe became a doctor. She was an HB10. They are still married 20+ years later and she is still smoking hot. Yes he was an alpha.

  53. @zdr01dz

    Dalrock is a veritable statistician when it comes to marriage, divorce and remarriage realities:

    http://www.census.gov/hhes/families/files/graphics/MS-2.pdf

    Median age of first marriage in the US 29 for men 27 for women. Average 28.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage

    These aren’t hard stats to find brother:
    http://mic.com/articles/92361/the-median-age-of-marriage-in-every-state-in-the-u-s-in-two-maps

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/12/14/barely-half-of-u-s-adults-are-married-a-record-low/

  54. @ Rollo
    Median age of first marriage in the US 29 for men 27 for women. Average 28.

    My age 25 for women comes from the year 2000 so your age 27 is probably more accurate for today. But with an average courtship of around 2 years it suggests the same basic scenario is in play for many women. No doubt your paragraph described with laser-like accuracy the females who buy into the FI and ride the cock carousel into their early 30s. One in four women have genital herpes and I have a feeling I know their demographic.

  55. wait, if how society is now and how it was back in the day, its basically the same, before hypergamy was restricted 100’s of years ago, that’s what its all leading too, but if natural alpha’s operate in the fi, what does that make us? seems we are trying to somehow fight evolution to favour us, unnaturally

  56. @Striver

    This sums it up, right here:

    “I do think Game is inherently feminine. It’s like angling to be a house Negro in the antebellum South. We know we can do better.”

    Is Game incorrect? Of course not: anyone who has practiced it realizes truth for truth. Is it merely a stepping stone into a better life, to be outgrown and dutifully discarded? Yes.

    As Rollo posits, it is inarguably true that females want both alpha genes and beta provisioning… it is wired into them. Can they get them both in a male who would rather not pursue the “inherently feminine” machinations of Game? Yes. How is that possible?

    I realize that so many males struggling in this area may not want to hear this, but ultimately, it comes down to spirituality. And I’m not talking religion, but rather your life force. Where is it centered? In you, or externally? And to be clear, because I often see this concept wildly conflated, I’m not talking about being self-centered in the sense that it’s all about you. Here we dip our toe into nuance. It is, in fact, all about you. But you are the nucleus of a sphere that is much larger than you. What consumerism, feminism, Rollo’s feminine imperative, and ALL other divisionary tactics have done is to atomize you, into a self-existence that is only you and no one else, to the point that you are utterly alone.

    Pretty, isn’t it?

    The reality is that we are not only troop, clan, tribe creatures, but also spiritual creatures.

    How does all of this apply to you and your endeavors with females? (I will leave the spiritual component out of this for today, specifically, though it should be evident in the following explication.) How it applies is that in your DNA, you are defined as a male by the connections you have with others, most commonly your original nuclear family, followed by your female and children, and then layered upon by your relationships with other males (professional, hobbies, friends, etc). The ultimate goal of Rollo-explained feminine imperative is to cut you off from those other connections that make you whole, females being a very important one of many.

    Are you beginning to see how diabolical this is?

    Most of your pain and hurt is not really about females, it is about the fact that you have been cut off from the most primal and essential social relationships necessary for your biological, emotional, mental, and dare say, spiritual wellbeing.

    Are you beginning to see how diabolical this is?

    Game IS feminine. It is, by definition, “game”. Who plays game? Females. The fact that males today are forced to resort to it is a testimony to the fact that far larger forces are prevailing at present over all of our genome. True male “game” is teaming up with his brothers to take down a buffalo with spears. That he would return to his female back at his teepee is a given. (Yes, shenanigans take place in camp, but that is not our overriding biological consideration (<5%)… good luck with shenanigans if you aren’t eating!) I respectfully submit that eating comes before shenanigans.

    Great, how can this benefit your life? Well, for starters, you can begin to realize that you are the center of a sphere, much like the nucleus of an atom. You are the center of the sphere of your life, whether or not you want that to be the case.

    As best as science is today able to inform us, the sun is the result of massive gravity pulling elements into its core. When all of those elements collide in the ensuing crunch, fusion occurs. The result is heat and light… the very same heat and light that you desire in your own life.

    Classical “game” teaches you to expend your energy outward into the universe in order to slake your desires. You pay “them” to teach you that. It is false. Does the sun operate that way? I think not. The sun drives its energy inward, and the solar system revolves around it. Such is life.

    Take that for what you will. The point is that rather than rail against the external forces in your life that are diffusing your life force, to rather, consider driving your energy inward so that the external forces in life come to you. The challenge then, of course, is to mature yourself to the point that you can do right by those energies that voluntarily give themselves to you (spiritual, no getting around it).

    Reach this place, and females will come to you. That’s a fact. But then you will bear the burden of responsibility, a whole other topic.

    Peace, everyone.

  57. Everyone claiming Game is inherently feminine is Doing It Wrong ™ I suspect. Not to say I’m doing it 100% right, but the better I get at it, the less I feel like I’m actually playing the female game. They’re forced to enter my world on my terms, and they beg to be in it when I hit all the right cues. I’m laughing at them the whole time and never taking them seriously. I frustrate them by doing what I want every time they demand something of me, and it just makes them wetter.

    Certainly seems a lot less feminine than being her beta bitch or being afraid of doing what has to be done to get laid. I have a lot to improve still, but the pieces I have gotten right have shown a lot of potential. Yes, it’s difficult. I don’t blame guys that don’t feel like doing it. Hell, I don’t mind having one less potential competitor. Guys that come here are some of the few modern guys I view as potential competition. The more of y’all that opt out the better for me.

    But it’s feminine to do what it takes to get pussy by refusing to be a mangina or put her needs first? Somehow I’m not buying it.

  58. Rollo,

    Torero claims that girls would * ideally * like to find Alpha (r-selected fuck) and Beta (k-selected resources) in the same man. That this CAN exist. But that this is very rare for it to exist in the same man. So what we see in the world is girls are forced to pursue a dual strategy

    So my question on this post to clarify –

    Are you saying girls * do not actually want * R and K in the same man? Not clear whether you are saying they prefer 2 different men. Or that if a R/K superstar showed up they would take him?

    If you are saying this, this would be a new claim in manosphere

    By the way if anyone is wondering if R and K can exist in same man – I would point to a celebrity such as Clooney. R selected fuck but also a multi-millionaire with K resources to lavish

  59. Everything you’re doing, you’re doing to get laid. Your “frame” is bullshit rationalization. Don’t give me that “I do it for me” horse shit either. You aren’t being alpha for shits and giggles, you’re doing because it’s what they want. You’re nothing more than a house slave.

  60. I wouldn’t necessarily call game “feminine”… but it is a response to a massive shoveling of female problems into male hands. Women want someone else to optimize their hypergamy for them. But, as in any aspect of life, when you give up a responsibility, you lose authority/power. Game is an adaptation to turn the female unwillingness to optimize their own hypergamy into a male power over their decisions.

  61. “The mistake in this, of course, is presuming women have the foresight to identify and appreciate the aspects that should satisfy an optimized state of Hypergamy. What Good Guys don’t consider is that women simply don’t have the depth of experience with men needed to recognize or appreciate ‘the best of both types’ at various phases of their maturity.”

    These are some of the best words written here…

    I think that the effectiveness of Game leads us to the female mind reality. Women are Unconscious actors in mating. They are not conscious of their actions this is why they insist on not being held accountable.

    They are a Mating Chinese Room.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

    Appropriate inputs gets the Bang.

    I have often wondered why many of my friends who are lesbians HATE HATE HATE to have a man sniffing around their current sweetie pie.

    Now I believe that women know consciously they are weak. And it’s only the tough frontal defenses of Shit Tests (logical counterarguments). That gives the veneer of a logical thought process.

    This is why Feminists are so hateful they know that their real enemy is the unconscious female mind. But all they can do is cow the male to not invoke these unconscious thought patterns.

  62. Yeah, right. Now put that truck next to a Maserati or Aston Martin and you get a shit shoveling redneck (or a guy that fixes the toilet at best) vs wall street alpha ashole. Using a commercial that asks kids, old people, and fucking women about anything is anti red pill. That’s some mainstreem bullshit right there

  63. There will probably be more “pre-cuckolding” going on. Young women have their “love child” with the alpha, then marry up the appreciative, compliant beta. So many blue pill men have no problem marrying single mothers, especially if she still has remnants of her youthful attractiveness, at least for now. So, as I see it, alphas can still breed with women with no problem. I know many blended families where I see this going on now.

    Until these clueless, idiot blue pill men discover this thing called the “internet” and all of the information it contains, nothing will change with them. I discovered the red pill, mgtow, the true troubling nature of women, the horrific anti-male bias of family courts, all of the blogs, etc., after doing some brief and simple research on prenups, marriage and divorce law and such.

  64. I remember reading an article a few months ago about a sociological study of a black lower-class neighborhood in some large city where no one marries and all the children are illegitimate. Supposedly a large number of the children from many women were fathered by a small number of males in the neighborhood and so there were many half-siblings who didn’t even know they were related. It does seem like that primate structure is what happens when females don’t need males for provisioning.

  65. Rollo, this woman blogger who you quoted/linked to – Lauren Martin – is a textbook example of female delusion and solipsism. I read the linked post “I’d Rather Cry Over an Asshole […]” and it just confirms everything you and Roissy have been writing about. I then read some of her other posts and was cringing at the level of delusion.

    Check this one out:

    http://elitedaily.com/dating/womanizer-and-a-gentleman/928136/

    All of the 25 points she makes are Red Pill eye-opening, but especially enlightening as to the modern female perspective is this nugget from that post:

    “Womanizers like looking for a hole; gentlemen will take you out of it.

    The sign of a true player is a man who preys on women in weak moments. Gentlemen, however, are the men who heal the broken until they’re ready to love again… even if it isn’t them these women will love.”

    Wow. So a gentleman is expected to “heal” her “brokenness” until she’s ready to go get broken on another player’s cock. Rinse and Repeat.

    How about this ode to the pedestal:

    “Womanizers see women as a prize to win; gentlemen see them as a gift.

    Players are those who see the chase as a game. Real gentlemen see it as an honor.”

    No comment needed….

    Check out more of this Strong, Independent Woman’s (TM) drivel, guys. It’s really an object lesson in what we’re learning here at RM:

    http://elitedaily.com/users/lmartin/

  66. Game is essentially applying linear reasoning to identify and mimic behaviors which attract women; lived experience and social science research both support the core principles of game. You can call it feminine and thus unworthy of men if you like, but, realistically, you are rationalizing your decision to take your balls and go home, a decision which is likely a buffer against rejection.

  67. Ang Aamer: “I think that the effectiveness of Game leads us to the female mind reality. Women are Unconscious actors in mating. They are not conscious of their actions this is why they insist on not being held accountable.”

    I suspect this is accurate. It’s a hard thing for men to grasp, because even if you can get really involved in the process of seduction/sex, you still have a sense of being in control and having agency, however compromised. With girls it seems you give the right input and their ordinary conscious self just isn’t there any more. I could tell stories, but for the sake of brevity I’ll say that you can just see the switch go off in the right circumstances – and suddenly her entire demeanor changes, and her whole body starts to act as a sex object. Then when it’s over she will say anything that happened is your fault – not resentfully, it’s just that nothing else computes or makes sense to her. She didn’t do it, really, she just kinda went away and then her body did stuff that she was aware but not in control of. Maybe it feels like that from inside.

    A few posts ago some lady commentator was saying that, when being pushed aggressively sexually by a new attractive man, she would go into a ‘fugue state’ of lust and end up having sex with him in spite of a profound desire to stay faithful to her current SO, etc. Lots of commentators perceived this as being her trying to excuse a lack of self-control and justify hypergamy, but I wonder if it isn’t actually a harsh truth that women really do just lose volitional control in the face of appropriate sexual input, and there’s not much to be done about it. It’s really not ‘her’ that does it, the ‘her’ that is usually driving the ship is bound and gagged.

    So we just try to prevent such circumstances as much as possible.

    Narciso Barbaero, on his now-defunct blog, once hypothesized that the only thing that could compete with lust in the hindbrain was deep faith conviction. So he suggested making yourself an object of almost religious adoration to your woman. And now we wonder why the Bible made men the spiritual head of the household, the conduit between God and women…

  68. Hey @Rollo

    > in today’s sexual marketplace women simply don’t believe the
    > average man is capable of being the best of both types

    > women aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta
    > trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at
    > the same time

    Not wanting to take easy shots at a place where a lot of good has been done for many lost beta souls, but I’ve spent a some interesting hours perusing the Married Man Sex Life site.

    It seems that the above idea, that a guy needs to have a mix of alpha and beta to remain successfully married and still have sex with his wife is the founding concept.

    I found the site instructive, but probably not in the way the married people on there would wish.

    To put it bluntly, I’m coming to the conclusion you’re right and MMSL is wrong.

    Here’s where I differ from them, would be interested to know your thoughts if you have the time:

    1. There’s no such thing a Good alpha or Bad alpha”.

    2. There is no shopping list of “things” a guy can buy or “activities” a guy can undertake that will make him alpha in womens’ eyes. Alpha comes from within.
    Perhaps the saddest thing to read is these hopelessly self effacing beta dweebs rambling on about their attempts to do alpha activities or obsessing over what car, or manly truck, they should be buying.

    3. There’s no such thing a good beta and bad beta. Self explanatory.

    4. Perhaps this is my most controversial conclusion. To wit, a guy who is not willing to be a jerkboy alpha 100% will inevitably have a compromised sex life if he remains in a mono-, married relationship with any woman.
    Some guys are willing to spend their lives having less sex than they would wish, or less enthusiastic, freaky sex than they want. Bully for them, but that’s not something a genuine alpha could even contemplate accepting.
    Also some women are just not cut out for mono life, and a jerkboy alpha who wants all his needs met by one woman will have to act like a jerkboy and next her out of his life.

  69. Politics is also forcing this sexual dystopia we are seeing. We have the welfare state, egalitarian/Leftist marriage law, inflationary central banking, central planning interventionism (especially with wages), the regulatory framework, etc.

    All of these are on one level what Ayn Rand would have called parasitism on the producer class. But on a deeper level they are a direct parasitism on men and particular white men. The egalitarian themed modern welfare states that exist in the west are all a defacto war against the beta male and serve to undermine his SMV.

    In the current political/economic climate, women are not incentivized to take a long term time horizon and choose better more moral men. No, they are incentivized to waste a good deal of their most fertile years gaining a worthless college degree and having meaningless sex in the short term sexual market (the r-selected market). Divorce laws ensure that they get bailed out for making bad decisions.

    Imagine if there were no Title 9, no government subsidized school loans, no government schools, no anti-discrimination laws, no welfare state, no unions, no government interference into wages and employment, no alimony, no egalitarian/equalist marriage asset redistribution laws, no insane child support laws, mandatory joint custody assumptions, the removal of bans on IQ tests by employers, no Federal Reserve, etc, etc.

    Yeah, if there were true liberty in America and not “equality” women would have to compete on merit. Most of the would not chose to do so at a high level. Why? Because they’re just not wired for it. They would get decent jobs and start looking for their husband when they were in their early 20s. The incentives of a truly liberty oriented society would push women towards more k-selected behavior. And men’s SMVs would be higher.

    Bottom line: yes we can bitch and moan about female nature and we can debate how important game is and how powerful it really is, but it is politics that matter. And it is politics that is driving this terrible behavior from women. Sadly the solution to that may either be revolution or collapse. Either way, we may all need to suffer to end this increasingly ugly and unlikeable feminist/leftist society we live in.

  70. Postscript: This is the well-known lover vs. provider dichotomy that the PUA-sphere has known for years.

    Women are hardwired to behave differently, sexually, with men they have placed in the Povider area of their mind, than they will with men they have placed in their Lover area. As our friend who discovered a video of his wife doing things with *groups* of jerkboys that she was refusing to do with him, found out to his chagrin (https://therationalmale.com/2013/12/03/saving-the-best/)

    Of course, real pickup artistry always depends on learning the skills of placing yourself in the lover category right from the start.

  71. @throughfare

    You write: “To wit, a guy who is not willing to be a jerkboy alpha 100% will inevitably have a compromised sex life if he remains in a mono-, married relationship with any woman.”

    Athol disagrees with this and so do I. You’ve never been married if you think that you can get away with 100% asshole game with your wife and have a successful marriage. Also, “asshole game” is itself a problematic term. What game is based on is the art of male psychological dominance. A truly dominant man doesn’t need to be an “asshole”. He needs to tease and be playful and set boundaries. But this asshole shit that you get from Manosphereans is nonsense. My guess is it comes from a bunch of socially retarded men who can’t conceive of what true male psychological strength is.

    Athol’s system is a good system for married men. His point though is that “alpha” and “beta” are based in different bio-chemical systems. Dominance is the result of dopamine and comfort is the result of oxytocin. A successful relationship needs both dominance and comfort. That to me is just fucking obvious.

    Athol’s presentation may be “purple pill” but his advice / system is a solid workable system for men who are married. Its actionable unlike 99% of bitchfest you get with the Manosphere.

    @YaReally,

    Nice plan about marrying/mLTRing a woman 15-20 years younger than you when you’re in your 40s. But you should know, marriages of more than 8 year age difference are statistically rare AND they have to be shown to include the more unattractive women. Young attractive women will want compensation in value for marrying an older man; ie a man who is physically deteriorating. You will need either status or money. From what I have read of your posts, you have neither. Unless you are going to get yourself a 3rd world woman, you will find it very hard to marry a girl with that big an age difference. Have sex with them? Sure, that is not hard and you have the game skill for that. But marriage is a different sexual market. It requires different value. If a beautiful young woman wants money, she will get money.

    I guess you could argue that you will do the “O-LTR” Blackdragon route. I doubt even he will pull that off with young women. At mid-30s you should look into getting a pretty, sweet young girl 10 years younger than you NOW. From my experience, I think you would need at least 5 million net worth to do what you want to do, and maybe even 10 million. Also factor in the possibility of economic decline in the coming years as Leftism intensifies and the currency is even more debased. “Game” will matter less in a society in the midst of economic decline. Survival will start to matter more; ie resource provisioning.

    Just saying.

  72. @Jeremy: “Do men actually prefer large boobs or are they acting according to instinct?”

    I think you’ll find men on all points of the boob-admiring spectrum.

    “At some point, one has to acknowledge that people are what they are, acknowledged instincts or not.”

    Since not *all* women engage in feral behavior or split the male archetypes for her own purposes then I guess that some just aren’t “people” then?

    “The best part about male stereotypes is how often they fail.”

    That goes for stereotyping or “profiling” in general, however, we all do it. I suppose I could be hypnotized to find economy car guy sexy just like I’ve obviously been hypnotized to find guys who work on their own cars and trucks to be sexy. Another girl might find grease under the fingernails to be of a class beneath her and might prefer economy car guy. It all boils down to archetypes and it turns out as human beings we are a whole lot more complex than binary mother/daughter or father/son archetypes.

    Speaking of sexy, sometimes a surprise, epiphany, or humiliation as to one’s preconceptions is sexy and sometimes it’s just the opposite. Sometimes watching someone else experience that surprise is what’s sexy. Sometimes the sexy part is identification and sometimes it’s the contrast. It’s not always evident to the observer which is which. Narcissism confuses this however, which, in my mind lately is not having a tolerance for feelings of shame.

    By the way, if I jump the bones of a guy who just fixed my car is that because he has “provisioned” me or because my feral nature responds to his mastery over the material world? It’s a trick question.

  73. @10×10

    I’m afraid you don’t “get” it.

    You’re confusing Jerkboy-ness with someting else.

  74. Okay. I’ll acknowledge that Game is one of the tools that men have. One of them. Call it cleverness, trickery, strategizing, whatever.

    Let me give an example of someone gaming someone else in a patriarchy. In the Bible there is the story of how Jacob obtained his wives. He starts working for another man, Boaz, I believe. Jacob wanted to marry Boaz’ daughter, Rachel. Boaz had another daughter, Leah, who was plain. Rachel was pretty. Boaz required Jacob to work for him for seven years before Jacob could marry his daughter. Jacob works the seven years, asks to marry Boaz’ daughter, Boaz says “Oh, I meant the plain one, Leah. Marry her, work another seven years, and you can marry Rachel.” So Boaz gamed, put one over on Jacob. Jacob works seven more years, then he can have Rachel. Now Leah wound up popping out 10 kids for Jacob, Rachel only two, so Jacob must have been okay with Rachel. Or maybe Leah + 7 did okay when compared to Rachel +14.

    In this sort of patriarchy, no one cared what Leah or Rachel thought. They had value as fertile women. Men ALWAYS have to work to get sex or offspring, no matter the society. But at the time, no one cared if Leah or Rachel had tingles for Jacob. Boaz essentially owned his daughters, and passed them on to a husband in exchange for work.

    Now we have passed the ownership of women’s sexuality from fathers and from social mores to the women themselves. WOMEN LIKE CADS. I get that. Heck, you could see that in TV shows and movies from way back. Some suave guy would roll into town, and the women would be all over it.

    Giving women more caddishness is playing on their side of the field. A minority of men enjoy being cads in the short term. A smaller number in the long term. Other men don’t enjoy it. The societies I think of with high numbers of cads are not usually very productive. Deep down there is probably some sort of female imperative driving the behavior.

    If I want to have some level of optimism about the future, I’d look for some ray of light, some sector that will advance masculinity. Men need to make the rules, need to run the society, for society to thrive.

    I honestly don’t care what other guys do, what the women do. Maybe I would sleep with 100 different women if they threw themselves at me. They don’t. I have to work at it, and being a cad would just be more work to me.

  75. @Mentats!

    Everything you’re doing, you’re doing to get laid. Your “frame” is bullshit rationalization. Don’t give me that “I do it for me” horse shit either. You aren’t being alpha for shits and giggles, you’re doing because it’s what they want. You’re nothing more than a house slave.

    Incorrect.

    YOU would do all these things to get laid, then surmise correctly that YOU would be submitting to a woman’s frame to do them because YOU genuinely can’t do them for yourself right now. Don’t put that on me.

    – I bought a new suit recently simply because I looked at myself in it and said, “Damn, I look good in this.” for the first time in my life. Gave no fucks if it ever gets me a woman, I just actually look great in it.
    – I went out driving expensive supercars at a track for my birthday just because it sounded like something that would make me happy.
    – I’ve kept my weight down and kept jogging over the years with or without a woman and regardless of Game because it just feels good. The one time in my life I got overweight I felt fucking gross just because my belly bounced a little when I ran. I wasn’t more than 10-20 lbs over.
    – I make six figures a year because life’s a helluva lot easier for a single guy that way than it is making five. I don’t plan to stop increasing my income.
    – As noted above, I don’t do what a chick says to do. Ever. Even my own mother gets told “No.” on a constant basis when I hear from her.
    – When I went camping for a month and a half on a motorcycle, it was for me to clear my head and find happiness completely alone. Not to impress some bitch. I’m going to do it again in the future, too. Without a woman.

    I could go on and on with the list of shit I do that you make it clear you would be doing for women, but I’m doing them for myself. But I don’t wish to belabor that point.

    I spend some time figuring out what I have to do differently with my female interaction to get what I want. I have to be a better observer of human behavior when I want to get laid. That’s really all that could be construed as being done for women, but really the motivating factor is my desire to get laid. If it weren’t there, she wouldn’t get the privilege of interacting with me.

    But the problem I see with your thinking is that you think you’re dancing like a monkey for somebody else because you have to spend some small part of your time learning how to control them. Learning how to bend them to your will. And once you get it right, it’s only the initial approach and setting the hook. Once they’re on the hook things are done in your frame. And once you’ve internalized all the lessons, as I understand it the behaviors simply become part of who you are.

    Once I embraced Enlightened Self Interest fully, I also realized that even when I do something for a woman so I can get laid, I’m doing it ultimately for me. My initial decision to do it was never about “How can I make a woman happy?” My initial decision about it was “I want to get myself laid consistently by attractive women. How do I do that?” You’re misinterpreting the tactics (Game) for the strategy (getting myself laid). In my mind, frame is about strategy. So long as it’s all going according to your strategic plan, you hold frame.

    If you want to call that a rationalization, fine. But what I see is you stomping your feet and creating a rationalization for yourself to not face your fears. A rationalization to allow yourself to be lazy. And unfortunately, a rationalization that seems to lead you down an incredibly negative path. You never seem happy when you post here. At all. If you seemed happy I’d say “MGTOW, bro.” But you don’t seem happy. Do you really want to live that way?

    I don’t.

  76. Hum. Point of order, Striver: ‘Boaz’ = Laban. Boaz was the patriarch in Ruth. Also, Jacob got to marry both of the girls after the first seven years, but was contractually obligated to work seven beyond that as a condition to get Rachel. So they had the same time window for reproduction.

    Anyways, don’t think it conflicts with your point at all.

  77. 10×10: “Athol’s presentation may be “purple pill” but his advice / system is a solid workable system for men who are married. Its actionable unlike 99% of bitchfest you get with the Manosphere.”

    True, any help in making men understand their gender will help a lot. But I think a much superior approach to LTR is at the Narciso’s (defunct) blog I referenced earlier:

    https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/to-whatever-self-be-true/
    https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-2/
    https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-3-the-formula/

    It’s more advanced stuff, but excellent. Too bad there’s so little of it….

  78. @Jeremy

    Game is an adaptation to turn the female unwillingness to optimize their own hypergamy into a male power over their decisions.

    Motherfucking this.

    @Baltimoron

    You can call it feminine and thus unworthy of men if you like, but, realistically, you are rationalizing your decision to take your balls and go home, a decision which is likely a buffer against rejection.

    And motherfucking this.

    These two comments are what I was saying but more succinct. As I learn in wing chun, you take your opponents energy and use it against them. The harder they throw themselves in to their attack, the more you punish them for me. The more women decide to throw away their lives on the AF/BB route, the more Game can be used to get you laid. Deciding not to learn Game in those circumstances is just a buffer against failure.

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