The Art of AMOG

If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.

One of the more contentious aspects of intersexual competition the early PUAs hit upon was the phenomenon of the AMOG – Alpha Male Of Group – and how ‘that guy’s’ apparent social dominance focused all interaction within a peer group on himself. The AMOG was an easy parody of a guy to hate on for early Game practitioners because his archetype was so relatable for men looking to improve their chances with women they’d never been able to consider before they discovered Game. The nefarious AMOG was their worst cock-blocking villain.

For a recovering Beta experimenting with Game for the first time it was bad enough that the very real, in-his-face proposition of rejection by women was always to be considered, but to have to account for a guy that looked (in his mind) like the typical jock who regularly out-Alpha’d him back in high school seems like an unfair obstacle to need to overcome. I think that a lot of men’s competition anxiety focuses on a very overdramatized caricature of the Alpha ‘bullies’ they were familiar with when growing up.

This characterization is also the basis of the long-clichéd plot of every boy-meets-girl, boy-overcomes-shyness, boy-overcomes-bully-to-get-the-girl story ever told, and not just by Hollywood.

While female written romance stories revolve around multiple suitors for a woman protagonist to tame the most Alpha among them – usually ending with the one who’s a misunderstood asshole to everyone but her – male written romance generally centers on an underperforming Beta male (with a heart of gold) who, through extraordinary circumstance is placed in a position of  outperforming all of his previous rivals for his dream girl, or the girl he ‘should really be with’ instead of the shallow girl he thought would be so great. Instead of selfishly abusing his newfound Alpha powers by kicking sand in the faces of lesser Betas, he fashions himself as the hero exemplar of how Betas should act if they find themselves in a similar empowerment.

The stories of Spider Man, Captain America and even Back to the Future follow these male-romance scripts to the letter, but in every case the Beta-with-a-chance has to teach the bully a lesson before he can qualify for the girl’s attention, much less her intimacy. This clichéd story arch is a manifestation of men’s internalized understanding of their burden of performance. And while I can’t entirely assert this is an intrinsic part of men’s own mental firmware, I have to speculate that the fantasy of fulfilling it is part of men’s ubiquitous need to adequately perform for women’s intimate approval.

Regardless, the objective purpose is still to ‘get the girl’.

Examples of this Alpha bully archetype are part of most men’s formative learning. Not all men learn the lesson of the bully (some play the role with relish), but if we hold to the 80/20 rule of the manosphere we’re statistically looking at around 80% of (Beta) men who do. From grade school to high school to college, that guy, the douchebag, the guy who can’t help but actively or passively draw attention to himself, becomes the AMOG – and damned if he’s not the most contemptible bastard (or type of bastard) you know.

I’m highlighting that guy because more often than not he’s less a real person and more a manifestation of the anxiety that results from men’s insecurity about performing adequately for feminine approval. It’s easy to poke fun at the guys you see on hotchickswithdouchebags.com because they’re representations of the bully you hate. They’re the Jerks that every woman loves and every ‘normal’ guy vainly tries to make women rationally understand are the worst possible romantic option for them.

One very difficult hurdle men have in unplugging is getting past what they believe is the emulation of the Alpha Jerk who so regularly outperformed them, if not bullied them – yet, his asshole ways were still undeniably effective with the women he wanted to get with. Thus, for men who come to Red Pill awareness there’s a natural resistance to become that guy.

This AMOG archetype impression is tough to confront for men, but it’s important they do so.

This impression for men is an incredibly useful tool to effect women’s sexual strategy later in life when the woman (or type of woman) he’s held in such high regard and pined to be intimate with for so long finally “comes to her senses” around her Epiphany Phase and accepts him. For men with this AMOG mental impression, that woman’s acceptance comes with a certain degree of (sometimes smug) vindication. He waited her out and finally she’s “realized” what he’s been trying to make her see for so long – he’s actually the ‘perfect boyfriend’ for her.

He doesn’t realize he’s just playing the convenient ‘savior’-provider role women’s sexual strategy has conditioned and prepared him for, but believing his Beta Nice Guy life track has finally won out over the nefarious AMOG in his head is a strong reinforcer of a belief women need him to strongly believe when it’s time to cash in their Beta Bucks chips and her SMV starts its decline.

And therefore those skilled in war bring the enemy to the field of battle and are not brought there by him.

I’m going to flip your AMOG impression upside down now. That AMOG isn’t the one you should concern yourself with.

Most of the first PUAs always suggested a process of containment and isolating your target woman in order to ‘poach’ her from that guy. I understand the proposed isolation idea is to remove a girl you like from her social group, but the effect is really similar to Mate Guarding – isolate her awareness of all other sexual competitors and focus her on yourself. 

However, unless you’re making your approaches in clubs or loud bars it’s likely the context you’re working on a woman in isn’t one where an active, in-your-face AMOGing is happening. Isolation becomes a security measure to focus her on you being her best immediate prospect.

Roissy once stated that there are groupies for every male endeavor, I should also add that there are AMOGs in every male endeavor. Every group of nerdy programmers, geeks, chess club, your bowling team and even in your Bible study group, there’s an AMOG. Some are more significant than others, but rest assured, you know him, or you will.

Most men will compartmentalize themselves socially so as to best facilitate their chances of meeting, banging, marrying or otherwise interacting with women. This compartmentalization is really a form of Buffering against rejection, but it’s also a logical social positioning of a man putting himself into an environment where he can (hopefully) excel and be noticed for it.

All warfare is based on deception – Bear this in mind when you enter into a new social group dynamic or an unfamiliar social environment. You are an unknown commodity and therefore your strengths are novel to the group. Your weaknesses (your Beta-ness) will be more obvious than your strengths and thus more easily attached to you.

Playing to one’s strengths usually involves defining a man’s social environments. King Douchebag at a Vegas pool party is excelling in his environment, just as Bobby Fisher is at a chess tournament. One reason less ‘socially adept’ men enjoy more confidence at a ComicCon is because the environment buffers their social deficits, but emphasizes their particular talents. The first mistake most men make when considering an AMOG situation is underestimating the importance of that environment. In high school the environment was probably set for you, but as an adult you’ve got a greater degree of control over it.

Bear this in mind when you’re confronted with a guy “all the girls love”. There’s a tendency on the part of Beta leaning guys to think the AMOG is a ‘natural’ Alpha when in fact he’s really domain dependent on the social environment you share with him. Of course there will always be guys who excel in almost any environment because Hypergamy is universal to women and a ‘hawt guy’ is ‘hawt’ to all women, but remove him from his preferred domain to one you’re better adept in, or, outperform him in his domain with a particular strength or expertise you possess in such a way that he’s forced to acknowledge your skill.

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.

The caricature of an in-your-face belligerent AMOG is really a social anomaly, and usually your experience of him is the product of an environment you’re not at home in. Far more common however is the AMOG who is unassuming, affable, and honestly a guy you probably can’t help but like. In fact this likability is his primary appeal. Obvious Alpha superiority combined with even a marginal humility makes for an irresistible AMOG to women.

One of my best friends to this day was a guy I despised when we were in high school. We ended up becoming lifelong friends, but initially I hated him for having such a natural Alpha affinity with the girls I wanted to get with. I actually attribute part of my early 20s sexual success (and if I’m honest some proto-Red Pill awareness) to many of the lessons women’s behavior around him taught me.

Both the nervous Beta and the PUA like to encourage the idea of an AMOG as being the drunk, loud-mouthed frat boy who pushes you aside to get to the girl at the bar you’re sarging (“Step aside McFly!”), but the Alpha Male of the Group to really consider is the guy women can’t stop talking about when he’s not even present. He’s the guy who leaves the room and girls giddily huddle together to agree about how ‘hawt’ he is. He doesn’t even have to be in the group to be the Alpha of it.

The best form of social proof is the unsolicited kind. The kind where women can’t help but talk about a guy, and ask his Beta-chump friends how they can get to know him better.

He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.

In the immediate sense, unseating this AMOG would be a challenge only the most exceptional men could hope for. He’s established in his environment and his status and social proof is perpetuated for him within his social group. This situation may seem hopeless, and if your goal is to supplant him you’d have to really consider what the rewards would be in doing so, however there is much to learn from him within your shared environment.

Pose as a friend, act as a spy. Befriending the AMOG may be your best option as it opens you up to his social proof as a peer. You may not replace him in the short term, but if you’re spinning plates as you should, his confirmation of you as a peer will only benefit you. This confirmation will allow you an insight into the dynamics of that social environment. Your ultimate success doesn’t lie in destroying the AMOG, or becoming one yourself, but mastering a shared environment in which your strengths are best applied.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance. The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

This tact is useful for both the in-your-face AMOG as well as the non-direct, status affirmed AMOG. Sometimes proving one’s superiority is simply allowing the mediocre enough time and opportunity to self-destruct. The trick of course is in being prepared to swiftly capitalize on that AMOG’s missteps.

Law 33 – Discover Each Man’s Thumbscrew
Everyone has a weakness, a gap in the castle wall.  That weakness is usualy an insecurity, an uncontrollable emotion or need; it can also be a small secret pleasure.  Either way, once found, it is a thumbscrew you can turn to your advantage.

In the early part of my career in liquor branding I worked for a very rich man in his mid 60s. This guy had quite the resume of “successes”, but for the greater part they’d come from his self-importance and borrowing money than any real talent of his own. He was the owner, but had a reputation for attention seeking and a love of flattery that bordered on arrogance. Usually this would come at the expense of whomever happened to be outshining him as the master.

He was a consummate AMOG, but with no real legitimacy. At one point we had an important negotiation with a Chinese distributor to get our brands into an Asian market and as he’d typically do he wanted to entertain the reps over dinner after a big trade show we’d met them at. They were impressed with me because I was responsible for the creative side of the company, but even with my own deferential credits to my ‘boss’ he took it as an opportunity to AMOG me in front of his new ‘friends’.

I actually saw this coming (it’d happened on other occasions) and I had a good prior knowledge of the sensibilities of the Chinese from my time in doing casino marketing, so I diplomatically let him hang himself with his self-aggrandizement and bluster at my expense. Predictably the reps were off-put by this and we lost the distribution. The good news was that about a year and a half later I was offered a string of very lucrative branding contracts for several of this Asian company’s holdings (2 of which I still front now) because of this patience and letting my boss implode. And all I did was see it coming and let him convict himself.

Every AMOG has a weakness to exploit. Sometimes discovering this requires a patience most guys simply don’t want to wait around for, but with a bit of tact and attention it doesn’t take long. I think the older a man gets the easier it is to judge the character of others (or it should) – you experience the “types” enough to gauge a predictable character action.

There’s an old, but fantastic breakdown of the classic Boyfriend Destroyer script on RSD Nation. I wont repost it here, but if you take a moment to read the script, the premise is one of breaking down a boyfriend’s reputation by indirectly whittling away at the most predictable areas of contention in most relationships. Emphasize his Beta attributes while leading (not telling) her to consider and appreciate your Alpha attributes.

Yes, it’s bad form, and yes, your efforts would be better applied to new prospective plates to spin instead of working on some girl with a boyfriend. However, it is an excellent study in understanding how to deconstruct an AMOG and learning his thumbscrews.

Amused Mastery isn’t just a technique to hold women’s attention, it’s also an effective tool in defusing an AMOG. Once you have an understanding of that AMOG’s weakness – a penchant for self-aggrandizement, a taste for booze or a kind of woman, lack of legitimate ambition, Beta thinking/behavioral tendencies, etc. – the plan then becomes one of emphasizing those character flaws indirectly by exemplifying counter-strengths to those weaknesses.

Women love a man who Just Gets It, and the best, playful way of expressing that is with Amused Mastery; but it’s even more sexy when that Mastery extends to men who she perceives are your intersexual rivals. This then, by association, compliments her ego for your Amused Mastery of her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] The Art of AMOG […]

ManPersonNumber6762
Guest
ManPersonNumber6762

Jack Donovan’s work (The Way of Men) enlightens one on what an alpha male actually is. Manly behavior does not directly curry favor with women. Healthy men seek approval from other men. This is the way we were designed. Men earn approval within their masculine ingroup by becoming good at useful things, by working hard, and by being loyal. Fucking or even flirting with another man’s wife is, in this context, the opposite of strength or “alpha”. A woman looks to a mans’ associates to see if he has their respect – A woman is attracted to a man that… Read more »

Christian McQueen
Guest

Excellent play by Leo’s character to hold Frame with her date.

Didn’t back down.

Flipped the script.

Immediately handled him and then focused attention on her.

Barely acknowledged his presence as well.

Allen
Guest
Allen

Then there is Marty McFly’s way of disposing cock blockers: “Biff, get your damn hands off of her! (Marty successfully delivers a right hook to Biff’s left eye and Biff falls to the ground.)

“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.” – Mike Tyson

horrenbrand
Guest

great text, just in the right time as I’m starting a new job thus new social group approaching 🙂

YaReally
Guest

“Far more common however is the AMOG who is unassuming, affable, and honestly a guy you probably can’t help but like. In fact this likability is his primary appeal. Obvious Alpha superiority combined with even a marginal humility makes for an irresistible AMOG to women.” Ya, this is why I don’t get punched. Most of the guys I AMOG *LIKE* me because I’m not doing it in the in-your-face frat-bro way people picture in their heads. Most of the time I’m doing it completely under the radar around the guy (like through the girl herself or her friends), or doing… Read more »

Roby
Guest
Roby

Brilliant essay Rollo. It’s amazing how you can assemble sparse PUA practices into a solid model. The fronteers of manosphere knowledge are without doubt established here in your blog.

ianironwood
Guest

Another brilliant insight, Rollo. I’d go slightly farther and say that the apparent AMOG also acts as a filter, a means of gauging the quality of a woman in a group by her reaction to the AMOG. Women with little loyalty and high hypergamy will move quickly, while wiser women, perhaps more choosy in their opportunism and therefore more considerate, will react much differently. Then there is the Beta girl on the sides, perpetually sidelined due to her low SMV, who may see her opportunity by aligning with an AMOG-aligned Beta, etc. Also, flipping the script on an AMOG to… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Christian McQueen, thank you and Rollo for that great podcast you did. I put it in rotation on my Ipod and seriously detect different nuances from Rollo’s focused ramblings each of four different times I listened to it. Good leisure time listening.

Please try to get him to do another podcast.

The Rational Male (book and blog) and The Way of Men rank in the top three best reads I’ve had in the last 40 years. And just like Minter (heh), I’m well read.

StichInTime
Guest
StichInTime

Chess player Bobby Fischer’s last name is spelled with a “c.” As for your Asian liquor distribution story, you were the AMOG in the meeting where your boss imploded. You were the AMOG before the meeting, during the meeting, and 18 months later when the Asians came back to you for your own distribution deal. The AMOG is not the front and centre who draws the most attention or has the women whispering after he leaves. AMOG has always been and always will be the man who is most conscious of himself. The man who not only understands how he… Read more »

ck
Guest
ck

If you attach yourself to this type of Alpha and can capitalize on that association then in fact you are Alpha yourself. You are the one who gets it. By default you can only get it if you are prerequisited for being Alpha. I have never seen Beta depose Alpha and walk away with prize. Alpha will simply not let you win. If Alpha is just an asshole and benefits only when he is in his social setting there could be need for expansion of the term Alpha. How much of Alpha he would be in trenches when bullets are… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

No disrespect to any of the principle characters but the Chr. McQ. podcast was a perfect exposition of this above blog post. I.E. Christian the AMOG (for real) is charmed by Rollo’s skilled art of AMOG. All of the principals hit a home run.
Complementary, not competitive.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Game recognizes game.

OK.

While I am gushing and you guys are helping me not get frivorced. Let me just say:

Ian Ironwood is one of the most skilled writers of Alpha Style.
The Manosphere book and the book of Alpha Moves have scored beautifully for me in a non-toxic harmonious relationship.

Simply wearing a peacock Australian Outfitters hat to the superbowl party last night accomplishes wonders. ALA the black fedora.

Simple truths.

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

ManPersonNumber6462: “Men earn approval within their masculine ingroup by becoming good at useful things, by working hard, and by being loyal …. A woman looks to a mans’ associates to see if he has their respect – A woman is attracted to a man that has the respect of other men, a sort of social proof, akin to a man that is associated with other desirable women that desire him…” This may be true, but it falls apart in a setting with many people living in one place – say, more than about 200. Once you get past tribal sizes,… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

StitchInTime: “AMOG has always been and always will be the man who is most conscious of himself. The man who not only understands how he behaves, but is aware of why he behaves as he does. He may never be predictable to others, but he’s always predictable to himself. Understanding the self first is the only way to experience long term benefits that come from understanding others.” Nothing to add, just thought it bore repeating. Well done. YaReally: Good to see ya here! Haven’t seen you around in a while. Your enthusiastic game explication is always a welcome break from… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

evidently I don’t understand how italics work

Kryptokate
Guest
Kryptokate
Wanderer
Guest
Wanderer

Good post. First one in a while where I didn’t want to cut my wrists afterwards.

But really, I liked the part about the AMOG being the affable type. This has been an observation of mine and is the first time that I’ve read it confirmed. The super-asshole will never be as succesful with women as the guy who knows when to be an asshole and when to be charming.

Victor King
Guest
Victor King

Great post as always Rollo. I’ve been working to become the AMOG in my own little corner, it’s a work in process and this article is a helpful boost. I’m going to check out the Christian McQueen podcast as well. I enjoy Christian’s blog as much as I do Rational Male, and find his practical game advice to be a great supplement to Rollo’s wisdom. I’ve stopped going to Return Of Kings as I feel the quality of articles has plummeted and there are a lot more bigots (race/religion etc) commenting there. Both Rollo and Christian make men of all… Read more »

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

Outstanding framework for teaching game-learning men the psychological framework for how to succeed….right up til you link Papa from RSD. Don’t get me wrong, that M.O. will work on chicks with weak boyfriends/husbands just fine – but if an aspiring PUA operates that way with a gf/wife of an alpha who just basically shrugs and/or regards the poacher as a creepy pursuer, it’ll backfire. Even if the aspiring PUA is just trying to poach in a new environment, for a ONS, with no ties to the contextual milieu – he’ll sabotage himself for probably the rest of the night. Then… Read more »

447
Guest
447

“The shrug is your million dollar insurance policy” I strongly agree. The article makes very convicing points for something that more readers/TRP-followers seem to know every month: At it’s core, AMOG is not a direct, visible “attack”, but a display of value. Someone who was amoged might perceive this in a very different way, of course. 🙂 In males, this behaviour actually starts early and without resulting in “fights” or “angry displays” of AMOG: When you are in a social setting with other guys who are (at least in part) manly, it is perfectly normal to do non-sexual shit tests,… Read more »

447
Guest
447

“Don’t get me wrong, that M.O. will work on chicks with weak boyfriends/husbands just fine – but if an aspiring PUA operates that way with a gf/wife of an alpha who just basically shrugs and/or regards the poacher as a creepy pursuer, it’ll backfire. Even if the aspiring PUA is just trying to poach in a new environment, for a ONS, with no ties to the contextual milieu – he’ll sabotage himself for probably the rest of the night.” I agree. There is a different, very simple reason that supports your statement, too: A man doesn’t even have to be… Read more »

447
Guest
447

“Bear this in mind when you’re confronted with a guy “all the girls love”. There’s a tendency on the part of Beta leaning guys to think the AMOG is a ‘natural’ Alpha when in fact he’s really domain dependent on the social environment you share with him. Of course there will always be guys who excel in almost any environment because Hypergamy is universal to women and a ‘hawt guy’ is ‘hawt’ to all women, but remove him from his preferred domain to one you’re better adept in, or, outperform him in his domain with a particular strength or expertise… Read more »

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[…] The Art of AMOG | […]

olympiapress
Guest

I’d not criticize the master on semantics, but sometimes when the boss was extemporizing on his own magnificence, I got the vibe I wasn’t in the presence of an AMOG, but rather a greater beta in constant need of affirmation. If I could gbfm for a moment, Petronius, in his Satyricon, described a dude, Trimalchio, who had the best of everything ancient Rome could offer and described it all at length. When he finally passes out from the finest of wines, the visitors, bored with his feasting and generosity, “give Agamemnon the slip” and duck out of there. An American… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

One very difficult hurdle men have in unplugging is getting past what they believe is the emulation of the Alpha Jerk who so regularly outperformed them, if not bullied them – yet, his asshole ways were still undeniably effective with the women he wanted to get with. Thus, for men who come to Red Pill awareness there’s a natural resistance to become that guy. This also, never gets any easier for me. I still get feelings of automatic resentment and disqualifying someone as a potential friend when I perceive them AMOGing. On this topic, it almost literally causes me physical… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
Guest
GhostOfJefferson

Back to the Future? What the hell? Marty had the girlfriend from frame one until frame “end”, with no deviation, losing her, or catering to her. She was a prop on his arm that was a mild side story at best. Marty’s main antagonist was *himself* and overcoming his own weaknesses which had *zero* to do with his girlfriend. She may have been present in the scene where he decides not to drag race, but the reason he doesn’t has nothing at all to do with her. Overcoming Biff across the episodes was the supposed traditional antagonist who turned into… Read more »

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

Rollo – (video) – exactly. It can backfire far worse than had the AMOGing not been attempted and rather a man just remained asocial (or worse). Jeremy – “This also, never gets any easier for me. I still get feelings of automatic resentment and disqualifying someone as a potential friend when I perceive them AMOGing.” To the extent that there’s a primitive, bellicose style AMOGing being attempted on you personally, I’d say that’s a healthy impulse – to not want to befriend a would-be poacher. He’s just an irritating boil you have to lance, and most likely via indifference. Why… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

Ok, that was some damn funny shit. They kept managing to top themselves which was surprising. The appearance of a gov’t official to delete social handouts was hilariously unexpected, as was Obama’s brilliant inclusion.

Jeremy
Guest

@GhostOfJefferson

Back to the Future? What the hell?

I tripped on this as well, But Rollo’s speaking about Marty’s father.

Jeremy
Guest

I completely understand the problems in movie references. If I were to have written this post Rollo, I would have used “Lucas” (1986). Lucas doesn’t get the girl in the end, which is all the more real.

GhostOfJefferson
Guest
GhostOfJefferson

I think it’s a thin case at best for Marty’s girlfriend in the exact specific scenarios you’re alluding to (for which Spiderman is in fact a perfect example). But this is of course off topic, so I’ll leave it at that.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

RE: Back to the Future. George McFly captures Lorraine’s sexual interest through an alpha display (manning up, putting Biff on the ground), immediately followed by Marty’s loss of perceived SMV via his embarrassing guitar-shredding antics. Afterward, there is the uncomfortable “LJBF” moment when she tells Marty that his performance was “interesting,” then goes home on George McFly’s arm. I would argue that Marty McFly is pretty RP already. No sexual interest in Lorraine (yet fully captivating her), obviously on solid ground with his devoted girlfriend without extraneous effort, boldly devoted to his interests/mission, and relatively fearless about actively pushing forward… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

And Rollo nails it: Captain America is the ultimate Blue Pill fantasy.

Jeremy
Guest

Lucas is exactly Captain America, minus the superhero, perhaps that’s why it doesn’t work for an AMOG post. But the burden of performance on the scrawny kid is so well drawn out in that movie, I think it deserves mention in RP/BP discussion somewhere.

And yeah, Marty’s gf is definitely just a prop. She has maybe 2 lines in the two follow on movies. She probably just serves as social proof for Michael J Fox so that women will appreciate the movie more.

kobayashii1681
Guest

Rollo, guys, I dunno if you have watched “Nightcrawler”…but I think that is one one the best RP movies from 2014…
The display by the protagonist should form, along with RM and other readings, the hand book for every man….
The character is a sort of antithesis to amoging, just being a man, purposeful in every way…

YaReally
Guest

Ok I’ll be the asshole since I get the impression no one else is going to call this out: @steve h @447 Good god the mental masturbation. Try not to slip on your jizz, guys. Anyone who thinks the BF Destroyer stuff doesn’t work is someone who either doesn’t go out or has just never tried it extensively. It’s killer. Lethal shit. This nonsense?: “Don’t get me wrong, that M.O. will work on chicks with weak boyfriends/husbands just fine – but if an aspiring PUA operates that way with a gf/wife of an alpha who just basically shrugs and/or regards… Read more »

anon
Guest
anon

that wolf of wall street scene is so good and she’s a 10 if one exists. and I don’t even prefer blondes.

YaReally
Guest

@Rollo
Holy shit that vid was amazing lol will be sending that to a handful of buddies who will know it’s totally about them lol

Amit
Guest

@kobayashoi1681

Love the film. The ultimate Redpill entrepreneur!

anon
Guest
anon

Need YaReally advice: I have a “scarcity” of male buddies with whom I can go out. Yeah I need to work on that, but in the meantime: this one buddy of mine is an “almost” natural or lower-alpha natural who used to have some game and pull some cute girls, but has been married for about 9 years and has 3 kids. But he can sometimes go out with me. I’m a greater beta “almost sometimes accidental” alpha who can comfortably flirt with women, look them in the eye, be cute and unfazed by sarcasm, etc. I’m pretty much the… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@YaReally Thanks for that. Things like that need to be said more often around here. You also bring up the scarcity position, which is something that I haven’t noticed discussed much lately. It ties in directly with a failed point I tried to play devils advocate on 2 threads ago about being upset at getting your girl(SO or even wife) poached from you. Only a scarcity mindset gets upset at being poached, just as you said. The correct mindset is to simply congratulate the “poacher” and regard a woman who may be violating a commitment to you as not worth… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

lol, can’t read YaReally’s blog at work… Reason: Pornography

Can’t read the rdsnation.com link either… Reason: Adult

Blue pill world strikes again on my lunch hour.

YaReally
Guest

@anon Speak up more, AMOG him “sorry about my buddy he has apparently never seen a girl before lol”, or ditch him and find a single dude in-field who’s on your wavelength. Can’t make people swallow the red pill and he has no reason to change his behaviour because he has a wife and kids. There’s no incentive for him to change what he’s been doing for years. @rollo lol ya I caught your “how do I link this without people misinterpreting my point and getting sidetracked or tossing it out like they would with a back to the future… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

I agree YaReally, denying the tactics behind the BF destroyer would work on a ‘quality woman’ is denying reality. It’s trying to assure oneself that more control over monogamy is possible than actually is. A kind of paradoxical danger here is that someone with a scarcity mentality might use it as a way to fool themselves into thinking they’re gaming girls all red pill and shit, when they’re actually fixating on a girl who isn’t really the best prospect. Kinda, ‘I’ll get that girl no matter what, even if she has a boyfriend!’ No danger of someone with your experience… Read more »

maestro
Guest
maestro

Hi, interesting subject. That reminded me of one situation i encountered with my now ex girlfriend of 5 years. im 27, she is 22. After night out in town we went to one of that kebab stands to eat something and as we placed our orders two guys came and waited in line behind us. They both were pretty tipsy, loud and were cracking some jokes and laughing. Now im fairly tall, 6,4 and jacked but one of that guys was like 6,5, way more jacked than me and boxer as i heard through conversation. now i could immediately spot… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Jeremy “about being upset at getting your girl(SO or even wife) poached from you. Only a scarcity mindset gets upset at being poached, just as you said. The correct mindset is to simply congratulate the “poacher” and regard a woman who may be violating a commitment to you as not worth your commitment. Again I acknowledge the position of weakness from which I argue on this point.” This is dead-on. Why would you be with a girl no one else wants to fuck? What’s next get a hot girl but tell her to dress frumpy when you go out to… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

Rollo: “But don’t think a BF Destroy and the underlying principles behind it aren’t valid. And certainly don’t think that those principles can’t or wont be exploited by other men.” This is essential. Even if you wouldn’t use a trick yourself, you must understand it so you can a) avoid falling prey the best you can; and b) know what went wrong if you do fall prey. It’s like being a man who would never run a scam on anyone for money. If you don’t nonetheless understand that some people are greedy for money, and how they might take it… Read more »

katmandu07
Guest
katmandu07

i just got my answer too 🙂 YaReally

Jeremy
Guest

Yeah… beta is fat-girl territory for guys

YaReally
Guest

@forgetthesky Ya I’m glad the manosphere and /TRP/ exist. I’m glad there’s a “pua-lite” because realistically pua is too over the top for most guys to be open to let alone get into and ultimately even if 80% of dudes only get 40% of the message that’s better than them getting 0% of the message. Like that married dude with kids needs something digestible to fix his life and in the end I just want all guys to be able to fix their shit and live the life they want. But when these manosphere convos turn to balls to the… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

YaReally, your points about how social media has blown women’s options wide open is well-taken. We’ve gone from a world where monogamy held uneasy sway, to a world where temporary mating arrangements ruled (even if we still called some of them ‘marriages’) subject to possible upgrades. I suppose I haven’t even calibrated to that yet and now even that system is obsolete; even those temporary arrangements don’t hold, where the only rules are ‘always be the best’ and ‘diversify your portfolio, don’t invest in one place (spin plates).’

I’ll have to reconsider how I think about things.

YaReally
Guest

“Personally, I agree that it’s typically bad form. And I wouldn’t run it at all on a women who had kids with her SO, or who had said marriage vows. I recognize this may come off as naive. I know precious few women truly take them seriously. But I don’t like to interfere with others’ religious convictions, so long as they don’t interfere with mine.” Ya. It may come as a surprise to people who read what I wrote here because it’s SO easy to paint people saying things that make you uncomfortable as villains so of course I seem… Read more »

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

@YaReally – I’ve apparently struck a nerve, huh? You wrote a novel there defending RSD, and I get it. I do. Lot of projection, so you might take all the questions you fired off and ask them of yourself. C’mon, be honest here. You want to elevate poor intentions and unethical behavior into something better, but you’re only fooling yourself. I don’t have to write 15 paragraphs rebutting what you wrote, because I don’t care enough to write more than this. Shrug. Have a good day.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

Oh, I do have one more comment. Question actually.

Rollo – if YaReally tried to poach your wife, how would you react, and how would you regard him?

YaReally
Guest

@forgetthesky “YaReally, your points about how social media has blown women’s options wide open is well-taken” I go out in-field regularly and I’m hitting on the <25 crowd (I'm early 30s) so this just comes from observation. These girls show me their texts and tinder conversations and I pick their brain for their perspectives and because I'm non-judgemental about sex they tell me stuff they don't tell anyone else like casual hookups and mistakes or fantasies or previous experiences with relationships etc. and I pick their brains for why they think they do these things or how they felt etc.… Read more »

forgethesky
Guest
forgethesky

From the OP: “While female written romance stories revolve around multiple suitors for a woman protagonist to tame the most Alpha among them – usually ending with the one who’s a misunderstood asshole to everyone but her….”

I laughed. Then wondered why I never noticed this before. It’s always the biggest asshole, isn’t it? Who ends up being the best guy ‘inside’ after all.

Thanks for keeping it empirical YaReally. I tend to more myself in theory, so I started hitting the clubs sometimes just to interact and observe.

YaReally
Guest

@steve h The answer to all my questions asked to myself is “yes”. I’ve been doing this a long time and I actually go try shit out in-field regularly instead of talking out my ass. All you’re doing is playing the “I’m above that boorish behaviour” card the same way a white knight is above that “teasing girls” thing because he doesn’t understand it and he’s determined to stay brainwashed by not trying to understand it. That’s why you wrote a bunch of snark instead of addressing anything I’ve written (there’s plenty of points for you to choose from) so… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

“@ManPersonNumber6762 February 2nd, 2015 at 6:05 pm Jack Donovan’s work (The Way of Men) enlightens one on what an alpha male actually is. Manly behavior does not directly curry favor with women. Healthy men seek approval from other men. This is the way we were designed. Men earn approval within their masculine ingroup by becoming good at useful things, by working hard, and by being loyal. Fucking or even flirting with another man’s wife is, in this context, the opposite of strength or “alpha”. A woman looks to a mans’ associates to see if he has their respect – A… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@YaReally Agreed on all points, sir. Many of the comments after Jeremy and I pretty much agreed that poaching girlfriends/fiancés/wives from random dudes or being poached from random dudes was just part of the game (and indeed a necessity for the reasons you mentioned plus my own) were pretty much labeling guys who acknowledge and work with that reality “shitbags”. Those guys need to sack up and kill the beta, or join the Fat Acceptance movement. If a woman is an HB6+ these days her needs for male attention are met before you talk to her. Whether a boyfriend or… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

“her needs for male attention are met before you talk to her.” I disagree. These days, far too many men are providing the kind of attention women really desire. Women are starving for it. It is very easy to sack a pretty attractive girl these days because there are so many self loathing self degrading men wasting their lives begging for approval and acceptance. It is really extremely pathetic what some men will do to try and gain esteem from others. If you take an honest look at yourself and everyone else you will notice this…..those who are always trying… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@forgethesky I disagree that the Red Pill is PUA lite. It’s just broader in focus; a lot of guys here don’t want to be PUA’s, so they don’t start from a place of already seeing the whole thing as a big game – as any aspiring pua must…. That’s all fine. There’s no getting around facts, and the fact is that most guys who read and study red pill truths don’t want to become PUAs. There’s a problem though. It comes when you try to consider why so many guys would rather go MGTOW than PUA. Where is the influence… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

Correction ….”are not providing the kind of attention…

anon
Guest
anon

@yareally thanks again as always. You are funny and it’s obvious that people enjoy hanging with you.

“sorry about my buddy apparently he’s never seen a girl before lol” see I never think of that. You have answers for everything.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

YaReally – you realize that your the prototypical keyboard jockey calling other guys keyboard jockeys? All your assumptions about me (and 447, or whoever else) are projections. We have no way of knowing if half the stuff you’ve written about your own experiences is true, and I doubt it is – but even if I grant you that, you’re investing an incredible amount of time and energy in the scarcity-based poaching game when you could just buy callgirls. Your identity is so wrapped up in circa 2004-era ‘sarging’ though, you can’t accept it. You can’t even see it. If you… Read more »

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

Check that, appreciate your answer. I think that mentality is exactly right.

christie
Guest
christie

hehe, i giggle at all you “men” here. all this strategy and knowledge is funny. i’ll let you in on a little secret: us girls can’t be bullshitted for too long. what i mean is, even though you may think you’re “winning us over” with your confidence, we already had you picked right from the start. we pick most beta men out of convenience and not out of a real desire. i’ve had guys run their little game on me and while i may give in,i only do so when i knew i could use him for something. like, if… Read more »

newlyaloof
Guest

@Christie: Okay, I’ll bite…

“I giggle at all you ‘men’ here.”
Yet, here you are wasting your high-and-mighty precious time dialoging with us instead of making babies. Go laugh at your barren womb, cause THE WALL will have the last laugh.

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

Loyalty and respect are NEVER gained by pretending confidence, complaining, demanding and begging. A man who is insecure ALWAYS looses. His insecurity predetermines his fate.

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

“@christie hehe, i giggle at all you “men” here. all this strategy and knowledge is funny. i’ll let you in on a little secret: us girls can’t be bullshitted for too long. what i mean is, even though you may think you’re “winning us over” with your confidence, we already had you picked right from the start. we pick most beta men out of convenience and not out of a real desire. i’ve had guys run their little game on me and while i may give in,i only do so when i knew i could use him for something. like,… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

Steve, Honestly, I think you need to relax a bit. Perhaps something YaReally said pushed a button or two, that’s understandable, but what you’re responding with now just doesn’t make sense to me. “Scarcity-based poaching game” doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever, that’s a contradiction in terms really as I understand them. Take note, Jeremy. Why are you working in that job? …Because I happen to really enjoy being what I am now. There’s nothing but therapy preventing me from practicing day-game. As I understand things, however, daygame is a lot harder than club/party game and takes longer to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Not Born These days, far too many men are not providing the kind of attention women really desire. Women are starving for it. When you’ve got 6s putting up the bitch shields of 9s, they believe their needs are filled. If they believe their needs are filled, that’s enough that you have to be ready to destroy what she believes fills her needs. Destroying that attention’s value in her eyes is showing her she’s not got the kind of attention she really wants: yours. It’s like any sales pitch. You create the need, then show her you fill the need.… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@Rollo Tomassi

…and it conflicts with the blue pill wish that it didn’t work so predictably.

Hah, I dunno about that. If it worked so predictably I think they’d jump on it. I think the chafing is over what the blue pill told them women should be. The chafing is over the fact that above-board nice-guy-equalism doesn’t work in the PUA sphere. I think it’s entirely over having not fully digested the truths contained herein.

Jeremy
Guest

@Sun Wukong

It’s like any sales pitch. You create the need, then show her you fill the need.

Sell me this pen.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

Rollo,

What if you rushed and published book 2 on Valentines day?

May I also suggest keeping the pics in the book

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong
Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

Maestro, you know your English is fine. Don’t apologise to us Brits about it. After all, it (English) is just a kind of organically made-up trade language, a bit like Swahili. It helped to stop all the island-monkeys cutting each others’ throats, which tended to happen when they stuck to their own languages (at least six, and some very unintelligible).

Seriously, we don’t care what people do to it. We’re not the bloody French.

jacklabear
Guest

Allen

February 2nd, 2015 at 6:53 pm

“Then there is Marty McFly’s way of disposing cock blockers: “Biff, get your damn hands off of her! (Marty successfully delivers a right hook to Biff’s left eye and Biff falls to the ground.)

“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.” – Mike Tyson”

It is clear why Allen was incapable of grasping the subtlety I was exploring a couple posts back.

He is also an excellent example of one who displays obvious weaknesses that a man with more intelligence and impulse control can exploit in the long run.

christie
Guest
christie

@rollo: hehehe, you think you have girls figured out but we will always see through anything men give us. we only let things happen because we want them too. most of us don’t care about any particular guy seeing as how we can get any we choose. this is why it’s easy for us to dump guys. it doesn’t work out? oh well, i’ll just text mike and see what he’s doing 🙂 a lot of guys think they’ve won us over or think that women get more attached than men, but they forget that most girls have more options… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Jeremy

Actually, amusing anecdote: the first (and only) job I ever did sales in, they told me to sell them a pen and showed me the wrong way as the right way. Yes, by carefully describing the features of it and why they’re so great. No attempt to create need at all.

There’s a fucking blue pill even in sales.

Jeremy
Guest

How long did you stay at that job Sun? Sounds like amateurs. Note that I’m not claiming I would have been able to recognize such naivete when I was young either.

Gotta create need and demonstrate value offered. Thankfully women create their own need, otherwise humanity might have died out from reproduction just being too damn hard.

jacklabear
Guest

christie

February 3rd, 2015 at 6:19 pm

Let’s see, pre-epiphany hamster aerobics.

The irony here is that she is demonstrating just how well we have girls figured out.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Jeremy

Haha, it was a Best Buy. I was like.. 21 or 22 I think. I had no clue how wrong they were at the time, just wound up thinking sales was really hard or something. I quit after like 4 or 5 months after a pretty huge argument with a bitchy male manager that had it in for me and a buddy of mine that I met working there. Buddy quit with me. He became one of the best salesmen I’ve ever met, and is still a good friend of mine to this day.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

that’s alright. looking forward to it Rollo

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

@Sun Wukong Yea we are saying the same thing…but I want to add something. “When you’ve got 6s putting up the bitch shields of 9s, they believe their needs are filled……..” Their real needs (desires) are never filled because there are too few men willing to fill those real needs (desires). The 6s believe (and they are usually correct) they can get away with bitch shield 9 behavior because so many men will succumb today. They are getting away with acting like they are more valuable than they actually are because men tolerate it. Too many men are letting women… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

So Christie…

If all you say is true and what you are attempting to project about yourself is true….then why are you participating on this blog…..what are you hoping to find or gain here?

If you really believe all you say about this and you are really what you claim to be, you would not be here. It would be of no interest to you.

Not Born This Morning
Guest
Not Born This Morning

Christie….

Are you fat dear?

jacklabear
Guest

It was so stereotypical I suspected it was a spoof.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@jacklabear

You’ve now experienced Poe’s Law. Congratulations.

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