The Art of AMOG

If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.

One of the more contentious aspects of intersexual competition the early PUAs hit upon was the phenomenon of the AMOG – Alpha Male Of Group – and how ‘that guy’s’ apparent social dominance focused all interaction within a peer group on himself. The AMOG was an easy parody of a guy to hate on for early Game practitioners because his archetype was so relatable for men looking to improve their chances with women they’d never been able to consider before they discovered Game. The nefarious AMOG was their worst cock-blocking villain.

For a recovering Beta experimenting with Game for the first time it was bad enough that the very real, in-his-face proposition of rejection by women was always to be considered, but to have to account for a guy that looked (in his mind) like the typical jock who regularly out-Alpha’d him back in high school seems like an unfair obstacle to need to overcome. I think that a lot of men’s competition anxiety focuses on a very overdramatized caricature of the Alpha ‘bullies’ they were familiar with when growing up.

This characterization is also the basis of the long-clichéd plot of every boy-meets-girl, boy-overcomes-shyness, boy-overcomes-bully-to-get-the-girl story ever told, and not just by Hollywood.

While female written romance stories revolve around multiple suitors for a woman protagonist to tame the most Alpha among them – usually ending with the one who’s a misunderstood asshole to everyone but her – male written romance generally centers on an underperforming Beta male (with a heart of gold) who, through extraordinary circumstance is placed in a position of  outperforming all of his previous rivals for his dream girl, or the girl he ‘should really be with’ instead of the shallow girl he thought would be so great. Instead of selfishly abusing his newfound Alpha powers by kicking sand in the faces of lesser Betas, he fashions himself as the hero exemplar of how Betas should act if they find themselves in a similar empowerment.

The stories of Spider Man, Captain America and even Back to the Future follow these male-romance scripts to the letter, but in every case the Beta-with-a-chance has to teach the bully a lesson before he can qualify for the girl’s attention, much less her intimacy. This clichéd story arch is a manifestation of men’s internalized understanding of their burden of performance. And while I can’t entirely assert this is an intrinsic part of men’s own mental firmware, I have to speculate that the fantasy of fulfilling it is part of men’s ubiquitous need to adequately perform for women’s intimate approval.

Regardless, the objective purpose is still to ‘get the girl’.

Examples of this Alpha bully archetype are part of most men’s formative learning. Not all men learn the lesson of the bully (some play the role with relish), but if we hold to the 80/20 rule of the manosphere we’re statistically looking at around 80% of (Beta) men who do. From grade school to high school to college, that guy, the douchebag, the guy who can’t help but actively or passively draw attention to himself, becomes the AMOG – and damned if he’s not the most contemptible bastard (or type of bastard) you know.

I’m highlighting that guy because more often than not he’s less a real person and more a manifestation of the anxiety that results from men’s insecurity about performing adequately for feminine approval. It’s easy to poke fun at the guys you see on hotchickswithdouchebags.com because they’re representations of the bully you hate. They’re the Jerks that every woman loves and every ‘normal’ guy vainly tries to make women rationally understand are the worst possible romantic option for them.

One very difficult hurdle men have in unplugging is getting past what they believe is the emulation of the Alpha Jerk who so regularly outperformed them, if not bullied them – yet, his asshole ways were still undeniably effective with the women he wanted to get with. Thus, for men who come to Red Pill awareness there’s a natural resistance to become that guy.

This AMOG archetype impression is tough to confront for men, but it’s important they do so.

This impression for men is an incredibly useful tool to effect women’s sexual strategy later in life when the woman (or type of woman) he’s held in such high regard and pined to be intimate with for so long finally “comes to her senses” around her Epiphany Phase and accepts him. For men with this AMOG mental impression, that woman’s acceptance comes with a certain degree of (sometimes smug) vindication. He waited her out and finally she’s “realized” what he’s been trying to make her see for so long – he’s actually the ‘perfect boyfriend’ for her.

He doesn’t realize he’s just playing the convenient ‘savior’-provider role women’s sexual strategy has conditioned and prepared him for, but believing his Beta Nice Guy life track has finally won out over the nefarious AMOG in his head is a strong reinforcer of a belief women need him to strongly believe when it’s time to cash in their Beta Bucks chips and her SMV starts its decline.

And therefore those skilled in war bring the enemy to the field of battle and are not brought there by him.

I’m going to flip your AMOG impression upside down now. That AMOG isn’t the one you should concern yourself with.

Most of the first PUAs always suggested a process of containment and isolating your target woman in order to ‘poach’ her from that guy. I understand the proposed isolation idea is to remove a girl you like from her social group, but the effect is really similar to Mate Guarding – isolate her awareness of all other sexual competitors and focus her on yourself. 

However, unless you’re making your approaches in clubs or loud bars it’s likely the context you’re working on a woman in isn’t one where an active, in-your-face AMOGing is happening. Isolation becomes a security measure to focus her on you being her best immediate prospect.

Roissy once stated that there are groupies for every male endeavor, I should also add that there are AMOGs in every male endeavor. Every group of nerdy programmers, geeks, chess club, your bowling team and even in your Bible study group, there’s an AMOG. Some are more significant than others, but rest assured, you know him, or you will.

Most men will compartmentalize themselves socially so as to best facilitate their chances of meeting, banging, marrying or otherwise interacting with women. This compartmentalization is really a form of Buffering against rejection, but it’s also a logical social positioning of a man putting himself into an environment where he can (hopefully) excel and be noticed for it.

All warfare is based on deception – Bear this in mind when you enter into a new social group dynamic or an unfamiliar social environment. You are an unknown commodity and therefore your strengths are novel to the group. Your weaknesses (your Beta-ness) will be more obvious than your strengths and thus more easily attached to you.

Playing to one’s strengths usually involves defining a man’s social environments. King Douchebag at a Vegas pool party is excelling in his environment, just as Bobby Fisher is at a chess tournament. One reason less ‘socially adept’ men enjoy more confidence at a ComicCon is because the environment buffers their social deficits, but emphasizes their particular talents. The first mistake most men make when considering an AMOG situation is underestimating the importance of that environment. In high school the environment was probably set for you, but as an adult you’ve got a greater degree of control over it.

Bear this in mind when you’re confronted with a guy “all the girls love”. There’s a tendency on the part of Beta leaning guys to think the AMOG is a ‘natural’ Alpha when in fact he’s really domain dependent on the social environment you share with him. Of course there will always be guys who excel in almost any environment because Hypergamy is universal to women and a ‘hawt guy’ is ‘hawt’ to all women, but remove him from his preferred domain to one you’re better adept in, or, outperform him in his domain with a particular strength or expertise you possess in such a way that he’s forced to acknowledge your skill.

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.

The caricature of an in-your-face belligerent AMOG is really a social anomaly, and usually your experience of him is the product of an environment you’re not at home in. Far more common however is the AMOG who is unassuming, affable, and honestly a guy you probably can’t help but like. In fact this likability is his primary appeal. Obvious Alpha superiority combined with even a marginal humility makes for an irresistible AMOG to women.

One of my best friends to this day was a guy I despised when we were in high school. We ended up becoming lifelong friends, but initially I hated him for having such a natural Alpha affinity with the girls I wanted to get with. I actually attribute part of my early 20s sexual success (and if I’m honest some proto-Red Pill awareness) to many of the lessons women’s behavior around him taught me.

Both the nervous Beta and the PUA like to encourage the idea of an AMOG as being the drunk, loud-mouthed frat boy who pushes you aside to get to the girl at the bar you’re sarging (“Step aside McFly!”), but the Alpha Male of the Group to really consider is the guy women can’t stop talking about when he’s not even present. He’s the guy who leaves the room and girls giddily huddle together to agree about how ‘hawt’ he is. He doesn’t even have to be in the group to be the Alpha of it.

The best form of social proof is the unsolicited kind. The kind where women can’t help but talk about a guy, and ask his Beta-chump friends how they can get to know him better.

He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.

In the immediate sense, unseating this AMOG would be a challenge only the most exceptional men could hope for. He’s established in his environment and his status and social proof is perpetuated for him within his social group. This situation may seem hopeless, and if your goal is to supplant him you’d have to really consider what the rewards would be in doing so, however there is much to learn from him within your shared environment.

Pose as a friend, act as a spy. Befriending the AMOG may be your best option as it opens you up to his social proof as a peer. You may not replace him in the short term, but if you’re spinning plates as you should, his confirmation of you as a peer will only benefit you. This confirmation will allow you an insight into the dynamics of that social environment. Your ultimate success doesn’t lie in destroying the AMOG, or becoming one yourself, but mastering a shared environment in which your strengths are best applied.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance. The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

This tact is useful for both the in-your-face AMOG as well as the non-direct, status affirmed AMOG. Sometimes proving one’s superiority is simply allowing the mediocre enough time and opportunity to self-destruct. The trick of course is in being prepared to swiftly capitalize on that AMOG’s missteps.

Law 33 – Discover Each Man’s Thumbscrew
Everyone has a weakness, a gap in the castle wall.  That weakness is usualy an insecurity, an uncontrollable emotion or need; it can also be a small secret pleasure.  Either way, once found, it is a thumbscrew you can turn to your advantage.

In the early part of my career in liquor branding I worked for a very rich man in his mid 60s. This guy had quite the resume of “successes”, but for the greater part they’d come from his self-importance and borrowing money than any real talent of his own. He was the owner, but had a reputation for attention seeking and a love of flattery that bordered on arrogance. Usually this would come at the expense of whomever happened to be outshining him as the master.

He was a consummate AMOG, but with no real legitimacy. At one point we had an important negotiation with a Chinese distributor to get our brands into an Asian market and as he’d typically do he wanted to entertain the reps over dinner after a big trade show we’d met them at. They were impressed with me because I was responsible for the creative side of the company, but even with my own deferential credits to my ‘boss’ he took it as an opportunity to AMOG me in front of his new ‘friends’.

I actually saw this coming (it’d happened on other occasions) and I had a good prior knowledge of the sensibilities of the Chinese from my time in doing casino marketing, so I diplomatically let him hang himself with his self-aggrandizement and bluster at my expense. Predictably the reps were off-put by this and we lost the distribution. The good news was that about a year and a half later I was offered a string of very lucrative branding contracts for several of this Asian company’s holdings (2 of which I still front now) because of this patience and letting my boss implode. And all I did was see it coming and let him convict himself.

Every AMOG has a weakness to exploit. Sometimes discovering this requires a patience most guys simply don’t want to wait around for, but with a bit of tact and attention it doesn’t take long. I think the older a man gets the easier it is to judge the character of others (or it should) – you experience the “types” enough to gauge a predictable character action.

There’s an old, but fantastic breakdown of the classic Boyfriend Destroyer script on RSD Nation. I wont repost it here, but if you take a moment to read the script, the premise is one of breaking down a boyfriend’s reputation by indirectly whittling away at the most predictable areas of contention in most relationships. Emphasize his Beta attributes while leading (not telling) her to consider and appreciate your Alpha attributes.

Yes, it’s bad form, and yes, your efforts would be better applied to new prospective plates to spin instead of working on some girl with a boyfriend. However, it is an excellent study in understanding how to deconstruct an AMOG and learning his thumbscrews.

Amused Mastery isn’t just a technique to hold women’s attention, it’s also an effective tool in defusing an AMOG. Once you have an understanding of that AMOG’s weakness – a penchant for self-aggrandizement, a taste for booze or a kind of woman, lack of legitimate ambition, Beta thinking/behavioral tendencies, etc. – the plan then becomes one of emphasizing those character flaws indirectly by exemplifying counter-strengths to those weaknesses.

Women love a man who Just Gets It, and the best, playful way of expressing that is with Amused Mastery; but it’s even more sexy when that Mastery extends to men who she perceives are your intersexual rivals. This then, by association, compliments her ego for your Amused Mastery of her.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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forgethesky
forgethesky
7 years ago

@ Jeremy, good comment in reply to me, I basically undersign all you write. Everyone has a different conception of the red pill I’m sure, just as everyone has a different conception of reality. But I think it really begins as you say – with an alliance to the empirical truths discovered through lived experience. And the experience of PUA’s is the basically unfiltered discovering of how male/female interactions work, and any man rejecting such ideas based upon visceral, ethical, or idealistic impulses is likely not taking the red pill all the way. I’m not saying the things PUA’s have… Read more »

forgethesky
forgethesky
7 years ago

Rollo: ‘Those quotes are all from The Art of War…’ I feel your pain. It seems whenever you want to incorporate classic writing into a discussion you either get swarmed with pedants or surrounded by a wall of oblivious open ears. Classic literature isn’t very highly regarded any more. So most people who recognize it are a bit too involved in it – kind of like trekkies, before sci-fi became cool. I, for one, really appreciated the quotes. I’ve never really felt I had the strategic acumen to really apply the Art of War well. Hazy stuff like the ‘I… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

I wasn’t trying to imply red pill digestion problems in you, forgethesky, I just wanted to point out that saying, “I don’t want to be a PUA,” (which I freely admit that I have said) is like saying, “I don’t want to do my physical rehabilitation,” after a major car accident. Rehabilitating ourselves from years of blue-pill lies is the actual goal, so ignoring the one activity guaranteed to build the survival ability that we lack is entirely self-defeating. Not saying it’s easy, not saying it’s smooth, but it must be done to some degree or we’re just wage-slaves with… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

I confess.. I knew they were from The Art of War as I was reading them. I knew what was trying to be said with them. I fully appreciated them being put into the article because they’re great and completely appropriate for the topic….and I *still* tripped on trying to figure out how BTTF figured into the meme of “getting the girl”, because when I think of that movie’s romance, I think of Marty, and his gf is barely shown.

Sorry Rollo.

YaReally
7 years ago

@forgetthesky
“acceptance of the world as we find it is the essence of the red pill, even if some of our info turns out to need modification with new data.”

Like the kid paraphrasing Thoreau in Into The Wild says: “Rather than love, than money, than faith, than fame, than fairness… give me truth.”

YaReally
7 years ago

@Jeremy ” is like saying, “I don’t want to do my physical rehabilitation,” after a major car accident.” This. I don’t even bother telling people “seriously, you can “be a PUA” by just approaching girls sober in the daytime on your lunch break, you don’t have to go take over nightclubs and add bouncers to your Facebook and stay up drinking till 4am with club girls, you can just chat girls up on the subway on the way to work and try applying this stuff”, because the people who need to be convinced to apply this stuff won’t stick with… Read more »

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

This is a great post with a lot of insights on AMOG destroying I had not considered but have employed “naturally” or intuitively. A case and point, a dude who my ex gf had started seeing provocatively took her to a party I was holding for some visiting musicians. He was a brash, loud, overly confident idiot who overwhelmed people with his brashness and threw a lot of money around. He had bought my ex gf a ticket along with a bunch of other people. I was fuming but let it go. They showed up and in the middle of… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Wow. A lot of solipsism going on here in this comment section on the blog article. Seems there are different frames of reference. A couple of thoughts. Red pill truths are the framework of Rollo’s blogs. they help men at any different level. My frame is 53 y.o. married will do it all over again with fringe adult children and hoping not going to get divorced. Three elite acquaintances had bad economic experiences in the last three years with divorces. At most my AMOG worries are with married guys who are interesting up to a point. But they are not… Read more »

forgethesky
forgethesky
7 years ago

Rollo: “I am Red Pill and I am Game. There will be issues I’ll put my voice and effort behind for all of these branches of the manosphere, but I will not spare them objective truths and warranted criticism.” Thanks for that. I’ve been more than a little confused by things the past year or two, so even if you don’t end up being right on every detail (can’t really think of any major thing so far though) it’s been a great help to have a clear vision of how things work from someone more experienced. I’m not sure where… Read more »

forgethesky
forgethesky
7 years ago

Jeremy: “I wasn’t trying to imply red pill digestion problems in you, forgethesky…” Ah, but I may have them. I suppose I’ve come along quickly as these things go. But I though I was really red pill before, then last week came along and I saw how much I was still rationalizing stuff. I told the long version last thread, but the short version – the girl I had been going out with, the first girl I had ever been serious with – she started going out with another guy, and I was in denial about how serious things could… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
7 years ago

The readership may be interested:

Generation of Vipers Paperback – September 1, 1996
by Philip Wylie (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1564781461/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Rollo

Yeah, I recognized all the Art of War quotes instantly. I’ve been working on memorizing it. It is, in truth, a treatise on human psychology in conflict. A brilliant one at that. Reading it is what started me on the way to thinking more strategically about every interaction with human beings in my life, no matter how small.

It’s a no bullshit assessment of how to deal with conflict, through and through. Completely appropriate for the topic at hand.

trackback

[…] Then, for Aaron, the Art of AMOG. […]

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

YaReally :”Yup. This is why I call it clutching to the blue pill by the fingertips. They’re fully on board with red pill except for that oooooonnnneeeee last fantasy of living happily ever after being able to stop putting in effort or gaming their wife. “ You called it man. Up until a few months ago I thought I had two unicorns. For 3 years I had been running 2 concurrent LTRs with my live in and a mistress. One had been exclusive with me for 10 years – I was only the second man she had been with –… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago

Hey there, I’m a girl. I know, but hear me out. I read Red Pill sites from time to time since I am genuinely fascinated by the dogma of others, even if I may not subscribe to it myself. That being said, I do have a couple of questions for you guys. I find Return of Kings to mostly be a bunch of whiny, butthurt children, but this site seems to have a more mature approach, so I’m posting this here. I can understand finding Alpha men attractive, since I certainly do, but I’m having trouble seeing the link between… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Thanks for the response! You ask what type of man I would or have given all to and the only answer I can leave you with is “someone who knows better than me in every way”. If this was a person who existed, I would happily defer to them. The problem is that that’s not really a realistic thing, and since it’s not, I don’t think I could ever totally give in to anyone. I’m not an emotionally driven person or a person who is lead by desire. Those things have their place, but are certainly not my main decision… Read more »

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

Let me rephrase that.
I’m trying to adjust my personality and circumstances to fit TRP reality.

stuttie
7 years ago

@ Rollo – each & every post means so much to me – thank you.

@ YaReally – I’ve missed your comments on CH & RM of late. Your comments in this thread have been epic – thank you.

Internalising Rollo/Roissy/Roosh/YaReally = total all-round RP awareness

GhostOfJefferson
GhostOfJefferson
7 years ago

If there’s anything I’ve learned from a few select posters here and on another couple of sites it’s that I surely would not trust some men, ostensibly on my side, in a foxhole next to me. Howitzers are a value neutral weapon, they are in and of themselves value neutral, however if you use them to wipe out orphanages and nursing homes, intentionally, for no other reason than “hur hur, it’s war, fucking destroy shit this is fun, you should thank me bro, hur hur” then you are using the tool in an evil sense and absolving yourself of responsibility… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

“I’m sensing a bit of a disconnect here, I don’t generally believe people should run around making serious life decisions based on what gets them off. There’s simply more to it than that. While I’m sure some guys are incredibly intelligent and capable of heading a household, I bet it’s a bit of a rarity since most people of both genders wouldn’t know common sense if it smacked them in the face.” There is no disconnect if you have read Rollo’s other 400 essays. If you are a woman you might want to read Athol Kay’s or David Deida’s books… Read more »

jeremy
jeremy
7 years ago

@Kristine Rose I’ll give you my own opinion to answer your question, though others here may disagree. You ask why a woman should give up control to a man regarding her own life, and adopt his frame rather than her own. That is a very very good question IMHO. Why should ANYONE adopt the frame of anyone else in a society that values independence? Yet, when considering relationships (and especially marriage), someone has to be the leader. I know what you may be thinking – no one HAS to be the leader, the couple can govern the marriage democratically –… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  jeremy

Thank you for thoughtful response. I absolutely don’t want to live in a world where I am constantly coddled and condescended to, that sounds like a nightmare. I basically want us as a couple to always do whatever the smart thing is. If my boyfriend presents a logical argument that makes sense, I am of course going to follow him. He does have to earn that through actually being right though. And while I have looked for someone (I’m currently in a relationship) that will bring things to the table that I don’t have, more often then not, it doesn’t… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
GhostOfJefferson
7 years ago

Demographically you might find ROK writers to not consider marriage and RM readers to be once divorced. The moment a man get’s married, he might as well tattoo the word Beta on his forehead. He just became a provider. “Providing” is not the sole determining factor of “beta”. We call lots of non-married men, in fact most of them, “beta”, so clearly there are other defining traits that apply to make the whole of the definition with no one exclusively “the” trait. And “providing” is not a bad deal IF the woman is traditional, non-feminist and adheres to traditional behaviors… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
GhostOfJefferson
7 years ago

Sorry, meant “reproduced AND run away”

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Ok, sorry I meant a Beta Bucks Provider tattoo on the forehead. Not solely and exclusively Beta.

newlyaloof
7 years ago

@YaReally, Rollo, Jeremy, Steve, I was alpha with sports and fighting, but a lifetime of mom-advice and feminine programming on media caused an odd chasm in my mind regarding social/sexual interactions. I remember being in bars in my early twenties and having my natural friends constantly interrupt me when I was talking in mixed sets and saying to myself, “Why is my buddy always interrupting me when we’re talking to girls? He’s being a dick. Doesn’t he know if he pisses me off I’ll kick his ass?” What I didn’t know back before the Red Pill was how uncalibrated my… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

Bro Knights just coming out of the woodwork around here.

GhostOfJefferson
GhostOfJefferson
7 years ago

@sjfrellc

Ok, sorry I meant a Beta Bucks Provider tattoo on the forehead. Not solely and exclusively Beta.

Cool, we’re both on the same page then.

I know it seems like I get pedantic with definitions and observations sometimes, but accuracy in concepts and statements seems critical to me. The Left makes great use of our loosely defined concepts and statements to our detriment, so I prefer not to give them any rope to work with in trying to hang us, heh.

Slainte

kobayashii1681
7 years ago

@ sifrellc – “Nightcrawler is not red pill. It is straight hard on Dark Triad. Machiavellian ism, Narcissism and Psychopathy. Some of us civilized married man game guys would be hard pressed to see the value of that.” I think the character, though dark and machiavellian, displays a lot of RP cues, especially, I think, when it comes to maintaining frame, and focusing on bettering ones self, being able to set goals and acheive (murder and cold…I dont know what this has to do with being married, or civil, being using game in marriage. Maintaing frame and bettering ones self,… Read more »

StitchInTime
StitchInTime
7 years ago

@ maestro — February 3rd, 2015 at 3:37 pm “Now this guy drunk as he was starts talking with us and eats his kebab and he said something like oh this kebab is so good you must try it and put it in front of my girl. She started to move closer to take a bite and looked at me. i just said hey hey and she stopped. after that i took her by the hand, we said goodbys and left. How would you react in that situation?” My reaction would be say nothing to her, give her no indication… Read more »

forgethesky
forgethesky
7 years ago

@Kristine, I don’t disagree with what others said above, I’ll try to add a bit to it by backing up still more. I wish humans could act more logically than they do. That would allow us to avoid all sorts of biases, errors, tragedies of the commons, and so on. But the fact is that logic follows emotions, not the other way around. The human brain is wired to feel something, and then find a reason why it is feeling that – i.e, to rationalize. Humans do this constantly, to a one. People who are good at acting rationally get… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Kobayashii, I wish there was an edit feature like on vbulletin forums. I keep mis-speaking.

I should have said
“Nightcrawler is not ONLY red pill. It is straight, hard on Dark Triad.”

I have no doubt those that score nearer 5 (on a 1 to 5 scale) would have better game and swallowed a bigger red pill. I’m not sure how the Jake Gyll. character Louis Bloom would fare in a LTR or Marriage.

Man was the ending cold: “I wouldn’t send you in to do anything I wouldn’t do myself”. Very Dark Triad.

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Rollo, So what would your disagreements with PUAs be? @Kristine Rose You talk about how the woman should conform to the man’s “frame” but what exactly makes this hypothetical guy know so much more than me that I should let him direct the whole relationship? You’re making two mistakes here. One, you’re presuming that you’ll accept dating men who are dumber than you (most women do not). You’re also making the mistake of presuming that the most intelligent people make the best leaders. Leadership is a role, not a qualification. In general society, we mix the two and generally force… Read more »

forgethesky
forgethesky
7 years ago

Good way to frame that Jeremy. It’s a good point that leading is more about directness of action than anything else. It’s not about superiority or inferiority, just who acts when and in response to what. In relationships, men act first and women calibrate their action based upon that action. He initiates, she responds.

It’s a good thing if the leader has intelligence and ability, but that’s a secondary issue so far as the bare dynamic is concerned.

jeremy
jeremy
7 years ago

@forgetthesky Excellent and well thought out comment. I agree with you 100%. It’s the mistake that too many women make when they read red pill theory. It isn’t that men want to lord it over women, manipulate them, or rule them. Some might, but most don’t. It’s that we’ve seen what equalism does to relationships – particularly to WOMEN in relationships – and we know it doesn’t work. It is amazing to me that more women haven’t figured it out. But then, what would their motivation be to do so? Men want women, but women want power (power being the… Read more »

447
447
7 years ago

@Yareally: “Ok I’ll be the asshole since I get the impression no one else is going to call this out: @steve h @447 Good god the mental masturbation. Try not to slip on your jizz, guys. Anyone who thinks the BF Destroyer stuff doesn’t work is someone who either doesn’t go out or has just never tried it extensively. It’s killer. Lethal shit. This nonsense?: “Don’t get me wrong, that M.O. will work on chicks with weak boyfriends/husbands just fine – but if an aspiring PUA operates that way with a gf/wife of an alpha who just basically shrugs and/or… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@YaReally Awesome stuff. Checking your archives out. My take has always been that I’ve allowed anxiety to overtake me, and that’s the only reason I’m in the position I’m in. Good Looking Loser has a whole series on Approach Anxiety that I’ve been considering doing. The Fight, Flight, or Freeze response. This is the kingpin in PUA problems. What’s really going on when we feel anxiety is our mind is telling us, “This is going beyond what we know and are comfortable with. This isn’t safe.” I had panic attacks during the last two hookups. I was horny and confident… Read more »

447
447
7 years ago

@Jeremy: “Once they have the man’s power, they have significantly less need for him, and less motivation to make him happy.” I agree. And if you block/prevent this situation by not being needy – the only source of *applied* female social power vanishes into thin air. *poof*, there it goes. Cue standart quote about what males are attractive to females… “It isn’t that men want to lord it over women, manipulate them, or rule them.” The second you arrive at an elimination of needyness, that state is achieved indirectly with even greater force – even if you have absolutly no… Read more »

447
447
7 years ago

“The temptation to drop out of the Game is extreme. But again….we have to remember that we’re cheating ourselves when we do this. Denying our desire for sex, pretending that it just isn’t worth the effort to us, that “women aren’t worth it”….in reality it has nothing to do with women; it has to do with our attitude about ourselves. At least until you’re talking about commitment.” Simple solution (the way there is hard, not the solution itself): What if you (even) commit, but feel no need? Getting sex (just sex) is not a problem anyway. But commiting (by just… Read more »

jeremy
jeremy
7 years ago

@Rollo, agreed. Even as a married man (especially as a married man), one can not stop gaming one’s wife and expect attraction to be maintained. It’s funny – men get married in order to secure frequent, passionate sex and not have to constantly expend energy to do so. This is the theory – it is what most blue-pill men believe about marriage. Women marry for children, for security, for status, for physical touch, for companionship. Men marry mostly for the idea of frequent, effortless, passionate sex. Women usually get what they want, men usually don’t. Women feel entitled to get… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
7 years ago

@steve H…. “And I apologize once again for beating a dead horse, but mens’ (writ-large) willingness to simply pay for it negates virtually all her power, including – inconsequentially enough – her power to elicit responses from the men on this forum….. You fool yourself. Paying for it is a cop out Steve. Paying for it is a “buffer against rejection”. Paying for it is avoiding game. Paying for it Does NOT “negate virtually all her power”. Paying for it avoids courtship and courtship is a battle. Paying for it is surrender before the battle has begun because you consider… Read more »

Striver
Striver
7 years ago

@Softek, Men are not hardwired for Game. They probably are hardwired for rape and dominance. Once gut level violence is tempered, men want to be the hero, the doer, who is rewarded for his deeds by a woman or women. Game is inherently feminine, an admission that women have won. Game involving talking and “communication” – does that sound masculine? If we return to patriarchy I can’t imagine Game being a big part of life. Men have better things to do. As far as whether Game is necessary, any sex that doesn’t produce surviving offspring is just recreation. If your… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

Learn this now, you will never achieve contentment or emotional fulfillment in a blue pill context with red pill awareness.

Yet… I see more men trying to do that than I do men trying to play by the second set of books.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

In regards to the threads in this comment section, Rollo’s essay on Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite. I managed to fully swallow the red pill 18 months ago and also would like to say a big thank you to the red pill pushers, esp. Rollo. As Rollo says” game is even more important in a LTR or marriage than being single.” Thanks to my skill level I only sustained a few minor injuries from the dynamite. I turned the ship around after 24 years of marriage and took over as captain. @forgethesky February 4th, 2015 at 10:28 am “Sometimes… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Not Born This Morning – “Don’t pay for it.”

You always pay for it.

There’s no such thing as free. The only question. Is whether it’s better to pay with labor in exchange for money, or pay with the time and the energy needed for game. Either way sex is sex. There’s nothing special or meaningful in the experience. Anyone who believes there is suffering a blue pill dilusion.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

“Bro-Knighting” is what made civilization possible.
Civilzation is also about the betas organizing to keep the alphas in check.
It’s not surprising that alpha types would want to promote ideas destructive to civilization.

AnonS
AnonS
7 years ago

““Bro-Knighting” is what made civilization possible. Civilzation is also about the betas organizing to keep the alphas in check. It’s not surprising that alpha types would want to promote ideas destructive to civilization.” And the Betas got wealthy enough that they turned to their subordinate in hubris and said “we like you women, so we are going to give you a promotion to be by our side.” And the women returned the promotion not with gratitude but instead stabbed them in the back and left them to die. And reality said, “Since you listened to your wife and ate from… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree
whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,
the ground is cursed because of you.
All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.”

Heh, that’s an interesting take on Genesis, punishment for no game.

sean
sean
7 years ago

“While female written romance stories revolve around multiple suitors for a woman protagonist to tame the most Alpha among them – usually ending with the one who’s a misunderstood asshole to everyone but her”

this is so true. indont know why people like atlas shrugged so much. i couldnt even read the book after she “falls in love” with the main guy after fcking 2 other people. b

Jeremy
7 years ago

Keep in mind that Atlas Shrugged was written by a woman. An old, somewhat colored-history woman, but a woman nonetheless. The romance in the story definitely reflects that fact.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

Bro Knighting may have benefitted society in the past, but here’s the fact: it only benefits women and alpha males in modern society. It actively damages the males that practice it while helping the males that don’t.

I hope you Bro Knights avoid acting on this knowledge. I appreciate your making my Game easier.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Ayn Rand was a far stretch from being feminine. She had a straightforward masculine bent when philosophizing. Very logical and not ruled by her emotions. She was a MBTI INTJ type pretty damn rare for a female. I don’t know about you but she was pretty damn red pill aware. And possibly anti feminist. Here’s a quote from her: “For a woman qua woman, the essence of femininity is hero-worship—the desire to look up to man. “To look up” does not mean dependence, obedience or anything implying inferiority. It means an intense kind of admiration; and admiration is an emotion… Read more »

kobayashii1681
7 years ago

* “(murder and cold blooded self serving machinations not withstanding)”

Fuck, long day….

kobayashii1681
7 years ago

@sjfrellc – Haha…I hear you man…agree on the dark triad bit.

kobayashii1681
7 years ago

Haha!!!
“Heh, that’s an interesting take on Genesis, punishment for no game.”

Well said Jeremy, well said!

Jeremy
7 years ago

@sjfrellc

She was a MBTI INTJ type pretty damn rare for a female. I don’t know about you but she was pretty damn red pill aware. And possibly anti feminist.

You can be all those things, and still ruled by hypergamy. The romance she wrote in Atlas does actually read as if she wasn’t trying to disguise the hypergamous influence in her characters mating decisions.

Men can be blue-pill-dyed-in-the-wool-feminists… and still feel the biologically coded desire to screw everything that moves. It’s just biology, not a knock on Ms Rand.

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
7 years ago

We are at cultural crossroads and transitioning from Monogamy to Serial Polygyny, the vestiges of Monogamy still exist (it’s to the FI’s advantage to maintain the Monogamy illusion to facilitate the dual BBAFs strategy) but it is slowly eroding as men become more aware. Most of the men on this board are reasonably mature (I would doubt whether many Millennials are reading here) and heavily enculturated in the Monogamy paradigm, these are the types struggling the most with the new rules (hence MGTOW and PUA animosity). The younger generations will have no need for game as they will be living… Read more »

Kyfho Myoba
Kyfho Myoba
7 years ago

Couple of things about dear old Ayn. One, she had a decades long affair with Nathaniel Branden, a much better looking fellow than her husband. Two, some work of hers was reviewed/commented on by some famous economist (or something), and he said of her that she was the (something like) “the strongest man he knew.” When told of this, Ayn asked, “Did he really?” When answered in the affirmative, she went for days smiling smugly (even more so than her usual) and recounted the story to all who would listen, and most likely many that wouldn’t. Ayn was NOT a… Read more »

ianironwood
7 years ago

@Kristine Rose: I’ll keep my answer short and simple: it’s a matter of practical hypergamy and the fact that female sexual desire is responsive in nature. In other words, if you find yourself the leader of your marriage, as a wife, odds are you will eventually lose respect/attraction/arousal for your husband, leading your innate hypergamy to kick in. If he doesn’t lead, you don’t follow; if you have to lead, he’s not the man you thought he was, no matter what you tell yourself. It’s not a matter of capability. Women mate upwards, and if you are not shown demonstrable… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  ianironwood

Yeah, I couldn’t really care less about who does the laundry and things like that. I certainly wouldn’t want to be with someone who I feel kisses my ass or is intimidated by me in any way. I’m talking about things like…being better with money. If the guy shows me that he is more capable of handling our money then I’m of course going to let him handle it, because I’m not an idiot, I’m just saying he has to show me that. I’m not gonna relinquish control to a guy simply because he has a dick, he has to… Read more »

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

Sun Wukong seems to posit a false dichotomy. It is possible to advocate honor from a position of abundance. What, you say that getting that abundance requires dishonorable behavior? Am I desparately clinging now just by my nails by believing maybe not? “Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice” I find it distasteful that the hardcore PUA doctrine is effectively aligned with the mission of the feminists. Since I have seen for myself the truth of the RP, am I also in bed with the feminists? Or can I apply RP in a way that is overall of benefit… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

“My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.” — Ayn Rand, Appendix to Atlas Shrugged Sounds good to me. The only problem is that the script was flipped in 2008. Stephen Moore’s editorial in Jan 2009 “‘Atlas Shrugged’: From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years” http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123146363567166677 Only exactly 0.8% of women think like Ayn Rand. I know what you are saying Jeremy by Ayn Rand was merely red pill observing and… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Wow. Just Wow. A newcomer that either never read anything said in the last four years or someone who couldn’t understand it. I can tell she’s trying. But those are few posts that are painful to read.

ianironwood
7 years ago

@Kristine Rose

You’ve essentially validated the entire Red Pill praxeology with your responses. You’ve also spelled out, subcontextually, the inherent dilemma between the feminine imperative and feminism, and why modern women are kinda screwed. Thank you.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  ianironwood

I think modern everyone is totally and completely screwed. I find you guys fascinating because the problems you highlight ring true to me, I’m just not sure your suggested solutions will work because sometimes it seems that there are no solutions. Maybe the push and pull you’re describing is just an inexcapeable part of life :p

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

There are certain kinds of women who want specific things, yeah. Not contesting that in the least.

My “writing style” right now could be appropriately titled “On Codiene Cough Syrup”, if that’s also the case for the other writers you mentioned I will be quite amused.

I’m not saying I don’t find dominant men attractive for reasons I’ve already expressed, but I also have an intellectual fascination with serial killers and the Nazis, just to keep it all in perspective haha.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

jacklebear – “Or can I apply RP in a way that is overall of benefit to the society and the women I get involved with as well as myself?”

Yes!

BUT….

…you might have to consciously delay or deny personal gratification in favor of your goal for society, or a greater good. Now that sort of old fashioned behavior is the essence of being a chump, and not Alpha, but don’t let that stop you.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

Kristine Rose, I recommend the work of David Deida to you. He wrote it for a new age audience, feminine friendly so he skirted directly stating the hard truths, yet women were saying things like “finally a man who understands how we women are” while at the same time it was considered a bible of sorts by the PUAs of the time. Some of the language used here like” submitting to a dominant man” sounds harsh to the modern ear, but realise that this is code for more nuanced concepts. It just makes it more efficient to build and discuss… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  jacklabear

Interesting! Yeah, I will check that out. I’m of course only comfortable speaking for myself here and my own wants and needs. I mean I have a hard time relating to the things a lot of other women (and people in general) say, so I don’t feel right speaking for anyone else. I personally need a strong man because I myself am a really strong person who takes no shit. If I am with a guy who’s not at least totally in control of himself and his life, I will totally eat him alive and that’s not good for either… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Kristine Rose please do me a favor. Have you and your boyfriend read Rollo Tomassi’s and Ian Ironwood’s books and blogs (Ian’s the redpillroom.blogspot.com). Then re-ask your questions. And then thank me for suggesting it.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  sjfrellc

I will check that out. People keep pointing it to me that I’m not familiar with every sentence ever written about this subject. I’m well aware of that, my whole life is hardly devoted to this subject. If I sound like a casual observer it’s cause I am. I’m just sick and bored and shouting into the abyss over here.

Jeremy
7 years ago

If the guy shows me that he is more capable of handling our money then I’m of course going to let him handle it, because I’m not an idiot, I’m just saying he has to show me that. I’m not gonna relinquish control to a guy simply because he has a dick, he has to show me he is actually superior in that skill. So I guess what I’m asking is if the guy in question isn’t actually superior at that skill, or is even just lacking intellectually in general, what happens then?… Jesus, it’s taken me this long to… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Rollo – “Just saying…”

AWALT?

Seriously if they are all the same person I find it a crying shame he/she/it can’t find more productive outlet like….macramé perhaps.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Kristine Rose – “I personally need a strong man because I myself am a really strong person who takes no shit.”

…Yawn.

So how do you benefit the man? What do you bring to the relationship? Perhaps more importantly can his strength diminish as your weight and age increase?

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Badpainter

I know that since you don’t know me, that sounds like bullshit, and since you probably never will know me I can’t convince you otherwise. I could name a bunch of good qualities but you’re already set to not believe me about those either. So…?

It is highly unlikely I will gain weight or age badly cause it’s just not in my genetic make up.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Good one Rollo. Just saying….= I TOLD YOU SO. @jacklabear February 4th, 2015 at 7:52 pm Good comment in mentioning Deida for the woman. I personally read The Way of the Superior Man many years ago and it made me want to puke at the suggestion to just belly up to my wife when she was shit-testing me and have a good amused mastery moment. I always felt at that time, that yes I could do that if I won the lottery, was independently wealthy and had no worry about the work, the taxes and the emotional investment involved in… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

“I personally need a strong man because I myself am a really strong person who takes no shit. If I am with a guy who’s not at least totally in control of himself and his life, I will totally eat him alive and that’s not good for either of us.”

Heheh….you be just saying.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  sjfrellc

I mean…self awareness?

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

“Perhaps more importantly can his strength diminish as your weight and age increase?” good reality slap

But Badpainter, surely you’re not suggesting that a man can relax his game long term?
I have seen a 65yo 240lb woman with an unreconstructed total mastectomy branch swing.
So no, he must continue to perform.
That makes the question to KR that much more important :
What are you offering him to motivate him to perform for you in a superior manner ad infinitum? Are you sure it is actually of value to him? Would you call yourself feminine?

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  jacklabear

Everyone really wants a list? Sure, why not. First of all, I don’t want someone to perform for me. I never wanted that. I want someone who does all of those things for themselves and I just happen to be around. I think everyone should be the best version of themselves for themselves, not a partner. The things I’m expecting from a guy are things that benefit him in his career and all of his interpersonal relationships, not just ours. That doesn’t mean he can never have a moment of doubt or vulnerability. I am a really supportive person, if… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

“I mean…self awareness?” Otherwise acknowledged as solipsism. “Thank you for thoughtful response. I absolutely don’t want to live in a world where I am constantly coddled and condescended to, that sounds like a nightmare. I basically want us as a couple to always do whatever the smart thing is.” There is a misunderstood thing about game. If coddled and condescended to means being manipulated, that’s not where red pill awareness and game end up in a male partner. Sure, you cant legislate intelligence in a mate, but for the most part if a reasonably intelligent male would peruse the so… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

@ jacklabear

You and I and all men are free to do as we want. So yes we can dial back the game in an LTR. But, unlike women, we can’t escape the consequences of our actions, nor do we expect to be the beneficiaries of one sided non-reciprocal relationships. Even bluepill guys still understand they have burden of performance, just an incorrect understanding of the burden.

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Kristine Rose First of all, I don’t want someone to perform for me. I never wanted that. I want someone who does all of those things for themselves and I just happen to be around. You realize, of course, that there’s absolutely no difference between… “Someone who just does all these (awesome?) things while I’m around” and… “Someone who just does all these (awesome?) things while giving me attention.” One you (I’m guessing) would call “performance”… the other you’re somehow deciding is “not a performance”. Women crave the attention of a high value male. You seem honest enough to at… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

I get what you’re saying, but I think there’s more to it than that. I think that a guy can pay attention to me because he enjoys having me around (sexually, socially, etc.) and so yes I am getting his attention, but he is reaping a benefit from it also. It’s not done to make me happy, me being happy is bi product of him making himself happy. I mean that’s why I give my boyfriend attention, being around him makes me happy. I don’t do it as a show and a favor to him. My boyfriend has made it… Read more »

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

So is it that your BF is not alpha enough? Not passing your tests? Maybe not as successful financially as you would like? Taking your self description at face value, you would be a desirable woman in a number of ways, worthy of a good man. If the answers to those questions is true, then you need a different man. He is not “trustable” to you to relax into his frame. Otherwise, you are in fact in an RP relationship and I’m not clear what your concern is. Is it just that the rhetoric of the femists and blank slatists… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  jacklabear

I’m mostly just curious about your ideology and how my relationship does and doesn’t fit into it. I am actually quite happy in my relationship. I just am not sure I have it in me to completely trust anyone in the way you’re describing. It’s not really about Feminism since I actually don’t subscribe to a lot of the modern views of feminism, it’s more that I can’t help but see the flaws in any human being. The most alpha guy in the world will still be imperfect and so I wouldn’t be able to completely let go. I don’t… Read more »

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

here we go again

this time it’s “submissive in bed, sexual person, no gag reflex, amazing body”

before with the other personae, we had IQ 148, everybody she slept with wanted to marry her, alpha female etc.

and, imo, we’ve had the “male” version of this, a guy who was so hawt he just got women without any game

they show up, they disappear, it’s bogus

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  redlight
jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

“I’m mostly just curious about your ideology and how my relationship does and doesn’t fit into it…I was just wondering what you guys think about relationships where the woman encourages the guy to improve himself for the good of both parties.”

A complete lack of even RP101.
Do your homework. We have given you good direction where to look. Come back when you have something to offer us.

jacklabear
jacklabear
7 years ago

That’s nice. Got some more?
I lived with a 9 who wanted to marry me after 5 years even though I had little money. I broke it off instead because her behavior was unacceptable to me.

Are you going to read Deida’s The way of The Superior Man? Athol Kay MMSL 2009?
Then you will know how your relationship fits into reality, not “our ideology”

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  jacklabear

http://instagram.com/p/yoAkd4AsBr/

http://instagram.com/p/sN0a_8gsB5/

http://instagram.com/p/x5sHO5AsGV/

I am who I say I am.

And yeah, sure I will read it. Sounds interesting.

redlight
redlight
7 years ago
redlight
redlight
7 years ago
redlight
redlight
7 years ago
Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  redlight

Yes, I’m a writer. You got me?

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

lots of fun stuff:

http://www.xojane.com/issues/this-is-the-best-ive-ever-looked-and-the-worst-ive-ever-felt

This Is The Best I’ve Ever Looked And The Worst I’ve Ever Felt

“Apparently, you can’t possibly have real problems if you’re attractive.”

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  redlight

Thank you for the trip down memory lane, but I’m aware of my body of work. I appreciate the effort you’re putting into this…is there actually a point or are you just expanding my readership?

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

this woman writes lots, here’s the last link I’ll post:

http://www.xojane.com/sex/girl-talk-i-did-everything-wrong-but-i-still-found-love

I Broke All the Dating Rules and I Still Found Love

It seemed like a better idea to just say, “I like being choked, is that a problem for you?” than to get emotionally invested in someone before realizing we wanted different things.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  redlight

Oh my god all my work! How did you find it?! It’s almost like it was posted publically or something.

…what are you trying to do exactly? You’re officially too into me now, it’s a turn off.

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

your backstory matches what you said here, won’t treat you as bogus

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  redlight

Yeah. Wasn’t kidding about the whole honestly thing so…

Jeremy
7 years ago

Back to the topic of AMOG… The opening scene of Schindler’s List is a great one. What’s missing from this clip is Liam Neeson prepping at home, dressing up, attiring himself properly, collecting money from all over his apartment (typical in the days before checks/plastic)… then he very smoothly tips the waiter to get a prime table… he scopes the room. At the end of the scene, which is fairly long, he has every person in the room wanting to party with him. He could have gone home with any woman there, and the guys might not have even minded.… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

“My relationship isn’t completely equal and I’m fine with that, I think it’s realistic. I was just wondering what you guys think about relationships where the woman encourages the guy to improve himself for the good of both parties.” Inter-sexual relationships aren’t by nature equal. They are complementary. Societal Feminine Imperative conventions put the equal word in your mind. And you are compelled to say the first sentence. When the female questions whether the woman encourages the guy to improve himself for the good of both parties , I would translate the question into how can my man make more… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  sjfrellc

Not about money at all! I just want my guy to be happy. Urging him to stand up for himself more (this was years ago when we were both very young, no knock on him now) has made him a happier person, he’s told me that. It had nothing to do with money. I will read those things, sounds interesting. I am well read, just not on this topic. I wasn’t even aware of The Red Pill till like a month or so ago, obviously haven’t done all the required reading yet. I don’t feel like anyone has picked on… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Kristine Rose

The most alpha guy in the world will still be imperfect and so I wouldn’t be able to completely let go.

Sounds like more apples-and-oranges unfortunately. Alpha is not a rating system for male value, it’s a state of mind. You need to read more before commenting. It’s fine to be curious, but you gotta get some basics down.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

I know, that’s not what I meant. I was saying even if I am attracted to someone’s state of mind because they’re alpha, I might not be able to get past their flaws.

That’s fair that I should read more, I will.

I hope I’m making sense…sorry, on cold meds.

Not Born This Morning
7 years ago

@badpainter “You always pay for it. There’s no such thing as free. The only question. Is whether it’s better to pay with labor in exchange for money, or pay with the time and the energy needed for game. Either way sex is sex. There’s nothing special or meaningful in the experience. Anyone who believes there is suffering a blue pill dilusion.” If “meaningful” is from an idealistic or fantastical perspective, then I agree. Anything ideal or fantastical is meaningless because it isn’t real. I disagree if “meaningful” is from a realistic perspective. Relationships can be very enjoyable and that is… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago

I agree!

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

It didn’t make me despise him because it was a rare thing. If I had to do that with every facet of his personality, it would. One thing here or there? No, I personally don’t hold that against someone. No one is perfect.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

The thing is, he wasn’t changing himself for me. I simply vocalized something that he disliked about himself to begin with. That tendency to avoid conflict came from a WASPY upbringing upstate. My guy realized that it was not a mindset that would serve him in NYC and that his actions were dictated by fear. If he did not agree himself that it was something that needed to change, he wouldn’t have changed it. I have also said things should change that he did not agree with and he did not change those things, which makes me respect him. I… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

lol, fantastic quote from Rogan… I’d never heard that one.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Thats a good guess, and I see where it comes from, but that’s not the case. I’m completely happy with my boyfriend now. The situation I was talking about happened years ago. I was slightly less attracted to him during that time but that faded when he stepped up and now he does not fit any of the beta descriptions and our sex life is pho nominal, actually. I’m not here cause I’m lacking anything in my relationship, I’m just trying to learn about social behavior cause it’s interesting. If anything I am looking to figure out why out of… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
7 years ago

Kristine,

What should he do to improve himself for the good of both parties and what needs to happen for you to completely let go, completely trust someone?

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago

He pretty much fixed any of the things I had issue with in the past. Mainly not standing up for himself. He also once told me I was his best friend and I didn’t think that was healthy. I encouraged him to connect more with other people and now he considers his roommate his best friend. I think it’s been good for him to have another guy to confide in. As far as making me let go completely? I don’t know that he can do anything realistic that would make me do that. It’s honestly not his fault. I’ve had… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

Kristine, your questions/comments now are so night-and-day different from your original question. A little reminder… You talk about how the woman should conform to the man’s “frame” but what exactly makes this hypothetical guy know so much more than me that I should let him direct the whole relationship? And now you’re talking about how your current relationship is awesome, your boyfriend is a fine leader, and you’re just trying to understand why that is so… Either I’m missing something, or you’ve essentially reversed course in your questioning. Now you seem not to care about “submitting” to a “frame”, when… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

That’s a good question and I see why it might be confusing. Basically I was asking if you should subscribe to a guys frame because he is simply a man, or because he has proven himself to be a good leader. In my particular situation, my boyfriend has already proven himself. I do subscribe to his frame, but not absolutely 100% of the time. I am submissive about certain things because of who my boyfriend is as a person, not just because he is a guy. And so I was just wondering if he didn’t prove himself to be a… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Yeah, it would have to be with a man. Only certain men though. It depends who it is.

I can like girls, but don’t feel submissive to them, personally.

I’m into BDSM though, so not sure how much of it is that.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

I really am satisfied in my relationship. Really guys, I’ve been honest about everything else, if I wasn’t happy I would just say that! I don’t want everyone to judge my guy over one anecdote that happened like 3 years ago.

In 5 years there has been like 1 or 2 areas I wish he was more dominant in. In 5 years. I don’t feel like that’s a lot.

I do think there is a real life element of danger there too, and the reasons I like all of those things sound pretty spot on, yeah.

Mr T.
Mr T.
7 years ago

@kristine rose
I have three questions for you

1, why did you become Goth?

2,why you’re not jealous?

3,do you think you’re bi?

Ps, your relationship is 98% on its last leg.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Mr T.

I just liked goth music and aesthetic.

I’m not jealous because I’m not insecure. I know what I have to offer. Insecurity is weakness. I also don’t want someone to only be with me because they have no other option.

I am a little bi, yeah. We have talked recently about having a threesome and I am excited about it. So, yeah. A little bi.

We are absolutely not on the verge of collapse but thanks for the concern!

Not Born This Morning
7 years ago

Kristine, It is good that you encouraged him to stand up for himself. His friends, parents, etc should also encourage that. No one can do a better job of standing up for him than himself (if he applies himself) and it is his responsibility. Life is full of risk and although we all make plans the real future Can be unpredictable. This makes life a little scary sometimes, but it also makes life fun and exciting. It is good that you are cautious but remember, nothing ventured, nothing gained. You are young, but life is short. You are considering your… Read more »

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago

Thank you! Yes, I’m just exploring my options right now.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

I absolutely don’t fuck guys I don’t respect. I’ve only fucked 3 people and I’m 25. They were things that I brought up and then he thought about them and asked his friends what they thought and he realized that not being more assertive was keeping him back. I think the stuff I wanted him to change was like just being more extroverted, but that’s just not who he is and I understand that. It didn’t come naturally to him at first but he was young. I don’t expect everyone to be at 25 who they’re going to be for… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
7 years ago

Fascinating how Kristine, LivingTree, Alpha Female, Trunig Star, and Kryptokate all have similar writing styles, common problems and similar “fascinations” with “Red Pill” guys.

Just saying…

Guys its the SAME FUCKING PERSON!

Take the HINT

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Really not the same person…

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Kristine Rose

…you guys would think I should submit anyway just because I am a woman.

No. That is wrong. You’re mixing cause and effect.

What we think is, as a woman, you will not want to accept a situation where you have to lead. This doesn’t imply obligation based on the accident of X-vs-Y chromosomes, it describes the mean optimum that exists because of evolution.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

Yeah, that’s true. I lead enough things in the rest of my life, leading a relationship would be a burden. I wasn’t sure where you stood on that, so that’s why I asked. Now I know.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

Jesus would ya lookit this attention whore?

Surprised you guys aren’t bored with her yet.

Kristine Rose
Kristine Rose
7 years ago
Reply to  Sun Wukong

I’m just sick and stuck in the house, dude!

Netflix only goes so far…

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