Father Knows Best

luke

I received the following from Mark Minter in this week’s comment thread. Regardless of what your or my opinion of Minter is, I will admit this is an area I haven’t explored before:

I have a request for a post. It is for a rework of a Rational Male post sometime back about sons of divorce that try to be “better than dad”.

I would think you might have more to say on the topic since a couple of years have passed since you posted it.

Or perhaps how a newly red pill divorced father might approach his son, especially if there has been a period of estrangement.

I have a “date” for a phone call with my son after quite a long period. You might imagine my relationship with my “old family” is sort of “interesting”, to put it euphemistically. My daughter has dropped my last name from social media accounts. My son calls himself “Younger Minter” and his assumed “middle name” is “Fucking”. Sort of a throwback to mine back in the day, but he seems quite pissed though.

I have been told these things can be quite emotional, and then a flurry of contact, but then a “backsliding” away from contact. Inevitably and probably rightfully so, he has innate loyalty to his mother. And he grew up in one of places that is so liberal it is often referred to as “The People’s Republic of …”

So the question is “How to bring him along?”

If by “bring him along” you mean convince him you’re not the asshole he’s convinced you are, that’s really subjective to your personal history and how amenable he is to listening to your side of the story. That said, there’s a world aligned against you that’s likely conditioned your son not just to hate you, but to loath his own sex by association with your past decisions and circumstances.

My intent with this weekend’s discussion isn’t to run Minter up the flagpole, but rather delve into a tough Red Pill area – reestablishing a lost or misguided connection with a son or daughter, from a post-Red Pill awareness perspective.

The post Mark is referencing was Promise Keepers. In that post I hit this situation from the opposite side:

Slay the Father

One common theme I’ve encountered amongst the more zealous beta White Knights I’ve counseled over the years has been this determination, bordering on fanaticism, with outdoing the life-performance of their asshole fathers. Before I go on further, many of them had legitimately rotten, alcoholic dads, who were abusive to them and their mothers. Others had the perception of their fathers colored for them either by their ‘strong independent®’ single mothers, or by watching their fathers resolve their own beta tendencies in a post-divorce life. Whatever the case, each of these guys had a mission – to be a better man than their father was, protect their mothers, and by extension the future mother their girlfriends and wives would become for them. His father’s personal failings would be his personal triumphs.

Being the father in this scenario and attempting to reestablish an after-the-fact, positive connection with a son is a very tall order. It’s almost easier to address the particulars of a daughter with ‘daddy issues’ who’s absent father contributed to her ‘victim status’ condition than it is to consider the upbringing and feminine conditioning a boy receives in his father’s relative absence.

The difficulty being that a son will have every negative perception of his father reinforced for him by a feminine-primary social order. Even in the rare instances when an insightful mother doesn’t resentfully color her son’s negative perceptions of his father during his formative years, there is an entire world of feminine social conventions pressing and affirming that impression into him.

From Daddy Issues:

Matrix Fathers

Have a look at postsecret this week. It’ll all be gone by Sunday so have a look while it lasts. This week’s thread is the usual fare for Father’s Day, a hearty “Fuck You Dad!” or “You’re the reason I’m so fucked up!” interspersed with a couple ‘good dad’ sentiments so as not to entirely degrade the feminized ideal of fatherhood – wouldn’t want to discourage men’s perpetual ‘living up’ to the qualifications set by the feminine imperative. There has to be a little cheese in the maze or else the rat wont perform as desired.

I always see a marked difference in attitude between mother’s day and father’s day, especially now that I’ve been one for 14 years. I was listening to a local talk radio show on the ride home Friday that was opening lines for callers to express their ‘gratitude‘ for their fathers, as they’d done the previously in May for mother’s day. Damn near every caller had the same “fuck you dad!” story about how shitty their lives were because of their father’s influence or his lack thereof. One girl had called in to bleat out her story about how her dad had left her mother 30 years ago and for the last 10 years she’d sent him a father’s day card with a big ‘FU’ on it to tell him she’d never forgive him. Another guy called in to say how horrible his dad was for leaving his mom and how he sends her a father’s day card because he thinks she fulfilled a masculine role for him that he owes some gratitude for.

Father’s Day is a slap in the face for me now – not because my wife and daughter don’t appreciate me as a father, but because it’s become a big “fuck you” Mr. Man. It’s now a reminder (as if we needed a special occasion) that masculinity, even in as positive a light as the Matrix might muster, is devalued and debased, and we ought to just take it like a man and get over it.

It’s a difficult task to unplug a man who’s a friend and open his eyes to Red Pill awareness. That guy has to be seeking answers to really be open to having his ego-investments in his conditioning challenged and realigned – you can’t really make a man Red Pill aware, he’s got to come to it in some fashion. This is a very important distinction to make when the man you’re attempting to unplug is your own son.

A father in this predicament has the double jeopardy of clearing his name as a father and as a representative of masculinity – the representation of all the negative aspects the Feminine Imperative has ever embedded into him about the taint of his own masculinity. As I mentioned in Promise Keepers, some of the most ardent anti-conventional-masculinity crusaders I’ve ever encountered all had the common denominator of a ‘bad dad’. There are no ‘deadbeat mothers’.

Minter’s not the first father to ask me for advice about this. One of the more painful aspects of waking up and accepting Red Pill truths is coming to terms with the consequences of basing your past decisions on a Blue Pill paradigm. I can empathize with younger unplugged Betas getting angry with themselves for having wasted part of their lives with the effort of chasing after the carrot of Blue Pill goals, but it’s an entirely different anger older men feel after coming to realize that their lives and the lives of their children (the only reason to get married, remember?) are the results of their Blue Pill decision making.

Fortunately I had my Red Pill awakening prior to my daughter being born and had the foresight to live by example. However I know enough men in similar straights as Minter to see what an impossible task it is to untangle the past Blue Pill version of themselves with the Red Pill aware men they’ve become. I do not envy them.

I think the questions for the weekend are obvious:

I understand that Mark is seeking reconciliation here, and it may not even be warranted, but what would advise you men in a similar situation?

Attempting to unplug a friend, even one in a trauma that makes him ready to hear Red Pill truths, is a difficult task, but when that man is your own son how do you go about it?

Bear in mind I do understand that raising your son by a Red Pill example would be ideal. I’ve written about it before. What I’m asking is how to approach a young man already steeped in a Blue Pill feminized conditioning for the better part of his life and make him Red Pill aware? That kid may be a son who’s made it his life’s mission to be a “better man” than you based on the definition of a feminine social doctrine that’s taught him to hate you, his own sex, or at the very least would prefer he remain confused about masculinity until after he’s committed himself to useful Beta provisioning when a woman needs it most from him.

I’ll give my own response in the comments.

Related:
Dreams of the Future Past

160 comments

  1. I had an abusive father and an intact family. It took me years to straighten him out. But he was the product of an extremely abusive mother. I forgave him. After he changed.

  2. Just to start, I’d try to engage him in comfortable, non-emotional events. Have him over for a barbeque. (Assuming he’s close. I’m guessing that he’s not though). It will be rough over the phone. The only thing I could really recommend is to not mention his mother. Let her be the one filled with bitter hatred. He needs to see how a man behaves, and men should be able to move on and make the best of things without harboring enfeebling resentment.

  3. If the father failed to set the RP example for his son during his upbringing, then I’d say the conversation, the ‘unplugging’, begins with acknowledging that, and calling it what it is.. a mistake.. Therefore you are saying, yes son, be better than I was, don’t make this mistake. Accept now that if you don’t understand some simple truths about women, you will unconditionally meet a similar fate.

    If you did manage to set an RP example to some degree, it shouldn’t take much to get the boy back on your side, at least for the duration of the conversation.

    I think it’s imperative to be open and honest about some things too, if the kid is at least a man-child (18).. You’re not going to get anywhere at all if there’s some big guarded secret about mom that has tainted the boy’s entire perception of how things went down.

    Don’t forget the beer.

  4. “Jung said that when the son is introduced primarily by the mother to feeling, he will learn the female attitude toward masculinity and take a female view of his own father and of his own masculinity. He will see his father through his mother’s eyes. Since the father and the mother are in competition for the affection of the son, you’re not going to get a straight picture of your father out of your mother.

    “Some mothers send out messages that civilization and culture and feeling and relationships are things which the mother and the daughter, or the mother and the sensitive son, share in common, whereas the father stands for and embodies what is stiff, maybe brutal, what is unfeeling, obsessed, rationalistic, money-mad, uncompassionate. So the son often grows up with a wounded image of his father – not brought about necessarily by the father’s actions, or words, but based on the mother’s observations of these words or actions.

    “It takes a while for a son to overcome these early negative views of the father. The psyche holds on tenaciously to these early perceptions. Idealization of the mother or obsession with her… may last until the son is thirty, or thirty-five, forty.

    “A friend told me how, at about thirty-five, he began to wonder who his father really was. He hadn’t seen his father in about ten years. He flew out to Seattle, where his father was living, knocked on the door, and when his father opened the door, said, “I want you to understand one thing. I don’t accept my mother’s view of you any longer.”

    “‘What happened?’ I asked. ‘My father broke into tears, and said, “Now I can die.”‘ Fathers wait. What else can they do?” – Robert Bly, Iron John, pp. 24-25.

  5. With the middle name mentioned, I can only guess that we’re referring to a young man past puberty.

    The Mark Minter writing style indicates a good supply of testosterone, so a “Younger Minter” would likely have more testosterone passed to him than most young men these days.

    Testosterone means strength, focus, calm (not hysterical) behavior and healthy desire for sexual intercourse.

    One thing most young men understand is the desire for sex. The drive is quite strong then.

    For whatever reasons, things didn’t work out. Usually, the connection between two people that is sexual intercourse, stops.

    Often that’s not the man’s choice. It’s not my personal experience, but all popular media has made this the brunt of jokes for more than five decades.

    Things aren’t perfect, so she says no. She checked out and there was nothing you could do.

    A young man with desires can understand what it would be like to be in a marriage with no sexual intercourse… with no other option. A conversation like that might be a way to clear the first hurdle with a young man.

  6. I have nothing to do with my father to this day. The man is a fucking traitor who has always allowed his bitch ex-wife to treat me like shit when I was a kid. The man also took the side of my baby’s momma when she tried to get me arrested. I would be able to forgive him for being a drug addict and being abusive, but I will never forgive him for taking the side of a cunt over his own flesh and blood. When this cocksucker dies I will personally take a shit on his grave

  7. The question I hear Rollo asking is: “How do you unplug someone from the FI Matrix?”

    For boys, express the Blue Pill and Red Pill ideas forthrightly and ask the boys to observe the behavior of woman vs. what the women say and see which ideas are more accurate. Focus on the top two or three, as in 1) hypergamy (women’s tendency to branch swing), 2) what about men attracts women, and 3) beta provisioning and frivorce.

    Not sure if it matters to daughters. Got some and don’t care much.

  8. Well it depends,
    It’s a natural thing that boys or girls tend to see mothers as the softer/weaker and fathers as strong and intimidating .
    So no mater how good the father is the mother still try to manipulate boys to be on her side.
    When fathers are not there due to divorce and shared custody don’t even try , the boy is completely brained washed against his father by his mother + the help she gets from the feminine imperative. It’ll take years and years to unplug and it’s not going to be by his father (because he-the boy-doesn’t respect him) but there is still hope though, it’s when the boy becomes a 30 year old and the father is either dead or too old to even bothered!.

    It’s much easier to unplug a boy when mother and father are still together.

  9. Most fathers with sons, assholes or not, will be disappointing to them in some (or many) ways at some point. Not to downplay the difficulty or the headwind of the FI or the divorce toll, but I’d do my best to see this as an opportunity, a gift. For both of you. Which isn’t to say it is all pleasant or nice even. You still have each other.

    My dad passed before we could ever have these conversations. He was a self-made man; solid granite. But through the years of FI driven hailstorms and my bipolar mom, with hammer and chisel, I watched him become a crumbling statue of his former self, a draft horse whose only pleasure was sneaking into the basement to watch TV.

    He was no asshole. But I held some anger in me over him – for him; his lack of spine, his constant labouring to serve the female needs, his complete lack of self-regard. He was a true giver. But it was painful to watch his gifts just send him further into oblivion. Together, he and mom, passed it on to me. I was to be respectful, full of character, “nice”, but never aggressive, never flexing my strengths unfairly. Blue. So Blue. And so, of course, I became that pain.

    Before he died (I was 30) when I would visit, we would sequester ourselves in the work shed to build. He wanted to tell me things, I wanted to ask him things, neither of us finding the words. I was moments before being frivorced and he was moments before the beyond. It was too late for both of us.

    But we spoke some through our bodies, hands turning the wood this way or that; our conversations would follow, circuitous arcs and tangents cut from linear minds. The words eventually began to hold some shape. The lathe was setting loose years of unspoken things, along with long curls of pine gathering at our feet.

    He insisted that I cut, not waning to admit that his hands were already too weak. I let him tell me how; instructing me in the same way he did 20 years back when I’d first checked out on the machine. Those words that annoyed the living shit out of me back then were welcomed. “Jeeze, I know dad!!” became “Oh, I forgot about that trick, thanks.”

    He always wanted me to be a better man than him. I always wanted him to be better man for him. No, for me too. I wanted him to be the rock not the puppet. It’s not just women who feel unease at seeing a man not hold his ground; it is also future men. But beneath the crushing weight of that much blue, those conversations are just bubbles rising up. Bits of air, but not yet a sky full of it.

    There was no red pill wisdom that day or any that followed. There was an understanding though. A beginning. For me, it would take more time. More pain. But I was on my way to becoming some version of him, a lot closer to the one that I always wanted him to be. He saw it in me. And in so many words, that was his gift to me that day.

    Now, RP aware, I both understand his choices as well as my own. For me, a lot of it is about the principle of giving of self; it can be both beautiful and destructive. We need fathers to tell sons these things, these words that give steerage to navigate past the treachery and on to the joy that awaits them.

    A boy becoming a man will likely hold ill feelings for his father for some reason for some time. Better it be for truth, the hard lessons leading to workable skills, the tough conversations that unbind manhood from the FI, and those small moments together that will feed his soul when you are long gone and he is looking at his future – or holding it in his arms. Be that kind of asshole.

    Learning the “right” way to cut wood will result in some splinters, but removing splinters is not nearly as painful as a lifetime of never truly knowing how the machine works.

  10. In a sense I’m “lucky” in that my red pill awaking took place around the time of my son’s first birthday. And after a year and around $55,000 wasted I now get to visit in his life eight days a month rather then four.

    I’ve had a discussion on the red pill reddit forum a few months back where a few folks brainstormed ideas for teaching the truth amidst being steeped in the feminine imperative.

    I have no control over what tv shows my ex wife is going to be sitting my son down in front of while she goes off and has her fun. Nor really any control at all. Instead I’m just going to make sure my game stays on point enough that I can teach by example. Teach my son what pitfalls to ignore. Introduce him to the manosphere as he ages. Do what I can so he doesn’t grow up ashamed of his masculinity.

    I have no idea how Minter can reattach to his father. I grew closer to my father as an adult when I got into a fist fight with him and won. That was the only time he apologized to me for the physical abuse he put me through as a child.

    Can we teach our children the truth of the feminine imperative operating in society? Or do we just have to watch them realize themselves and be there to guide them to the correct realizations?

  11. “Jung said that when the son is introduced primarily by the mother to feeling, he will learn the female attitude toward masculinity and take a female view of his own father and of his own masculinity.”

    Jung, disliked by Rollo for valuing the irrational (I understand your hesitation Rollo), was on to this feminizing shit 70 years before his time…

    “There is only so much vital energy in any human being. We call that in our work the Libido. And I would say that the Libido of the American man is focused almost entirely upon his business, so that as a husband he is glad to have no responsibilities. He gives the complete direction of his family life over to his wife. This is what you call giving independence to the American woman. It is what I call the laziness of the American man. That is why he is so kind and polite in his home, and why he can fight so hard in his business.”

    “I noticed that whenever the American husband spoke to his wife there was always a little melancholy note in his voice, as though he were not quite free; as though he were a boy talking to an older woman. He was always very polite and very kind, and paid her every respect. Yo could see that in her eyes he was not at all dangerous, and that she was not afraid of being mastered by him.”

    http://www.returnofkings.com/51627/carl-jung-predicted-catastrophe-of-modern-gender-relations

  12. There is a great story recounted by Carl Jung in his autobiography, ‘Memories, Dreams, Reflections’, from his his time as a practising psychotherapist.

    I will quote it here at length. It is quite an illuminating passage, entirely relevant to the original article.

    “In contemporary psychotherapy the demand is often made that the doctor or psychotherapist should “go along” with the patient and his affects. I don’t consider that to be always the right course. Sometimes active intervention on the part of the doctor is required.

    Once a lady of the aristocracy came to me who was in the habit of slapping her employees – including her doctors. She suffered from a compulsion neurosis and had been under treatment in a sanatorium. Naturally, she had soon dispensed the obligatory slap to the head physician. In her eyes, after all, he was only a superior ‘valet de chambre’. She was paying the bills wasn’t she? This doctor sent her on to another institution and there the same scene was repeated. Since the lady was not really insane, but evidently had to be handled with kid gloves the hapless doctor sent her on to me.

    She was a very stately and imposing person, six feet tall-and there was power behind her slaps, I can tell you! She came, then, and we had a very good talk. Then came the moment when I had to say something unpleasant to her. Furious, she sprang her feet and threatened to slap me. I, too, jumped up, and said to her, “Very well, you are the lady. You hit first – ladies first! But then I hit back!” And I meant it. She fell back into her chair and deflated before my eyes. “No one has ever said that to me before!” she protested. From that moment on, the therapy began to succeed.

    What this patient needed was a masculine reaction. In this case it would have been entirely wrong to “go along.” That would have been worse than useless. She had a compulsion neurosis because she could not impose moral restraint upon herself. Such people must then have some other form of restraint-and along come the compulsive symptoms to serve the purpose.”

    The entitled, selfish woman in the story is modern feminism. She needs men to put her in her place.

    http://www.returnofkings.com/51627/carl-jung-predicted-catastrophe-of-modern-gender-relations

  13. He could send his son some links to the manosphere. Just the links, without any explanation that might be interpreted as self justification or excuses. The idea is to implement a seed in the mind of his son that will lead him to question the current situation. It will take a long time and the boy must travel his own journey and reach his own conclusions at his own pace. All Mark can do now I think is try to get him started.

  14. Indeed. The boomers lost the country. A generation of weak men. Saddled gen x with hell, and the millennials and younger have a ton of work to do. I’m not sure they can do it, almost none of them growing up in a nuclear family.

  15. Q1. what would advise you men in a similar situation?
    A1. The high road. To those of us whose ex-wives’ hatred poisoned everything, this maybe longshot phone “date” would be a definite positive but only if it can be leveraged into continuing in order to promote your views. Thus, there is no need for you either blaming OR taking any blame.

    Q2. when that man is your own son how do you go about it?
    A2. My two daughters, from my 1st wife, responded totally differently to the divorce and post-divorce life. One has remained in contact but the other has shut me out for over 23 years. I’ve not advised my son about red pill stuff explicitly, but he has figured out MGHOW on his own.

    Q3. how to approach a young man already steeped in a Blue Pill feminized conditioning for the better part of his life and make him Red Pill aware?
    A3. This remains a daunting question for me since I can’t reconcile the truth about what works with women (i.e. sexualization and Dread and domination) with what remains the foundation of morality (you really should treat people nicely).

    There never was anyone else in a position to even have the faintest shot at being a “better man” of “better dad” than I according to most social conventions. So I conclude, contrary to the thrust of this post, that the reason so many boys have become slackers is that they have observed that the “better man” doesn’t win nowadays.

  16. ” I can’t reconcile the truth about what works with women (i.e. sexualization and Dread and domination) with what remains the foundation of morality (you really should treat people nicely).”

    that requires so much nuance maturity anticipation intuition understanding excetera excetera

  17. And still not even an attempt to answer Rollo’s question. Or was he just being rhetorical?

  18. I cannot offer any real personal experience to Mark. In my situation, my father was a documented criminal who did a lot of time in jail. My brother and I both grew up with the mentality of “I will not be like my father”.

    It would seem to depend upon what the mother told him about the father. The social-media thing with the daughter is a huge tell. Parental Alienation.

    I guess it will depend upon how level-headed Mark is.

    I am vaguely reminded of a female blogger in the Manosphere, who reunited with her father. Once she found out that:

    1/ her mother had cashed every single check that he’d sent, while lying and saying that he’d never sent anything

    2/ her mother had taken them on vacation every time her father came back (from overseas?) to visit

    She did a massive about-face w/regards to her feelings about her father.

    Guess it depends also on how Mark presents himself, as a level-headed and relaxed person or a screaming and frothing fruitcake filled with hatred for the ex-wife. I can’t imagine the latter from what little I’ve heard.

  19. My issues with my daughter are quite different as we were never estranged until she was 24, I was always in her life and provided for her. So I can’t relate personally. My suggestion is humility, Mark. If you haven’t been there for him, own up to it. Realize that he may be quite pissed at you and rightfully so if you haven’t been there. Don’t play Daddy either, if you haven’t been one to him, he will resent it. Start slow, peer to peer.

    My brother’s son from his first marriage pulled away from him when he was 21 or so. Despite all my bros effort, he stayed away for a while. His approach was to be patient and wait it out and keep the door open. But in my bros case, he had some messes to clean up with his son too about how his first marriage ended. He came back two years late of his own accord. i think he was reconciling the view of his Dad that mom was giving him and understanding why my brother left his mom. She’s a BPD or some kind of psycho, so in part my nephew was coming to terms with his mom’s limitations too.

    I do know this. Adult children will do what they want. The popular culture imposes no demand upon them to respect fathers and in fact, divorced dads are easy to kick around. Even after I paid all I was supposed to and much more, and was always there, my ex had my daughter believe I was some kind of deadbeat dad. I also know parental alienation firsthand, so no matter how hard you try as a divorced Dad, you are most likely going to get fucked with to some degree, and you are at least super easy to fuck with.

    Good on you Mark for re-uniting with your son. It’s never too late to do the right thing. I wish you luck.

  20. This is the reason I stay married. There is no way I would end up with as much contact with my child post divorce. I wish I had taken the red pill earlier, but such is life. The best I can personally hope for is to ride this hellish train as long as I can until my son is of an age where he can not be redily swayed.

    For this gentleman, I would start out by telling his son that there are two sides to every story, and when his son is ready, he would be happy to share his side. I would refuse to tell it on that day, but instead force his son to call him specifically to hear it. It would give his son the required time to think on it. Perhaps to realize he has only heard one side. The phone call either comes or it doesn’t. Trying to jam his side of the story into an unwilling mind will be futile though.

  21. I don’t know what it’s like to have a son, estranged or living under my roof. I still don’t know if I ever want to have one. But it certainly gives a man a whole new reason to be a man. Not only for himself, but now for his son, as Razorwire expressed from the son’s perspective. I can understand the base need to intervene or subvert your son’s FI social conditioning, and set him on a better path, both for himself and those he interacts with. I think most fathers want their sons to be better men than themselves, certainly no man wishes their sons to be underachievers, social rejects or cripples as if their sons will some day pose a threat to the father’s SMV or mating strategy.

    From the son’s perspective, he will resent Minter no matter what, especially as an estranged father. Most boys, this day in age, don’t or can’t respect their fathers enough as men to really internalize, and reflect on their advice (most men don’t even offer the kind of life/social advice their sons need) but again, as Razorwire pointed out, “I KNOWWW Dad!”

    So with that in mind, my advice would be to lead by example. Sons, almost like women (bear with me here) may respect demonstration rather than explication. I think this is the case for all people. There is no doubt that children learn behaviors in the home, emulating their parents. So instead of telling a parable or explaining to him a shit test for example, show him how to react. Show him that acting like a man (agree and amplify for example) creates the positive female reaction desired, while a submissive reassurance of her higher SMV dries her up and kills the attraction.

    As an estranged father, you are already fighting for your son from a deficit. He’s on your ex’s side to begin with. If he is of an age where you can explain what went wrong in the relationship, he may realize it wasn’t your faut, maybe you’re not the demon your ex has painted you as. I think the most important thing is becoming a strong father figure, for lack of a better term. Even in a professional environment, it’s important to have a mentor, especially when starting out. Having someone to emulate, ask questions, confide in and strive to impress is hugely important to developing as a man. The knowledge that someone expects you to be a man, to do great things is the most important part of having a father.

    Unfortunately, for most father-son relationships, these things go unspoken. It isn’t until later in life, all too often too late in life, where the son sees the father as a man, equal, instead of Dad, that these realizations or conversations occur.

  22. On my father. I certainly committed myself to being a better father than my Dad was, and I succeeded. It was one of the most important goals of my life to not pass on the physical abuse and violence and insanity. That’s why I did 15 years of therapy and other work.

    It’s hard for people who aren’t victims of serious childhood abuse to understand how central this experience becomes to your life. I feel like trying to be a better Dad than him was a healthy reaction as I had to be very conscious of myself to not be like my father. I often thought while I was doing all that painful therapy that I was re-parenting myself. For a while, when I was really waking up and becoming present to the love I had for my daughter, I used to often just tell myself to do the opposite of my instincts, and she’d probably turn out alright. I didn’t want to pick her up when she cried when she was an infant because I didn’t want to “spoil” her – but found out you can’t spoil an infant by holding it too much. In fact, the more the better.

    So I changed. That and a million other things, mostly by just tuning into my love for her and how amazed I was by her. It was being a father that helped me transcend so many of my own childhood issues. I realized how little I actually got from my Dad. Children need so much love, it’s astounding. My daughter was terribly well loved and it shows. She doesn’t have this hole inside of herself that she can’t fill like I do. She loves herself, and she isn’t plagued by self-loathing or doubt. Sadly, she can’t seem to forgive these things in me, yet doesn’t understand that the only reason she doesn’t have them herself is because I strove mightily to not be that kind of father. Sigh…Knowledge doesn’t fix the situation.

    For me, it’s different though because of the childhood onset PTSD and how it went on steroids after my rock climbing fall 11 years back. For me, it was the sins of my father visiting me yet again, in my 40s. I thought I’d left most of that shit behind me, but it came back and clobbered my like never before. So in my life, my father’s effect is still writ large and an incredibly negative example for me.

    I’m not sure how that is a character defect. In my case, my mom enabled him, she didn’t tear him down. So I don’t really know what to say about all that. She was both a traditional and modern woman. Went back to college after I was born, became a teacher, but also kept house and cooked and was a good mother. But my Dad was a madman, so it’s hard to draw generalizations from any of it.

  23. Start him off by giving him a copy of the book: “The Manipulated Man” by Esther Vilar.

    Also:

    “The Predatory Female” by Lawrence Shannon.

    Whoops, almost forgot: The Rational Male by Rollo.

  24. HeHeHe …”The Peoples Republic of Vermont ” where we showcase to the entire nation what a bunch f kooks we are by electing Bernie Sanders to the US Senate. I know it well oh I know it well

  25. Don’t play Daddy either, if you haven’t been one to him, he will resent it.

    Beat me to it.

    You’re not his Father. The FI is his father and has plans for him to fulfill. This is the first part to understand.

  26. Re , don’t tell woman how much money you have.

    I have to admit, ,,,those weren’t my words! they were uncovered by archiologist in Sumer the real cradle of civilization 4500 BC ! .(this is where Abram STOLE all his stories from).

    Those words were found in a man’ bedroom.

  27. This post strikes home. I’m a father. I was the one who left and I’m still estranged from the kids. Daughter still won’t speak to me and my son has the most knight-ish attitudes you can imagine. I lost frame in my marriage early.

    When I think of my father, he seemed RP but he was also cold. Always a rock, never lost control. I never got to know him and he haunts me. I’ve always felt that I couldn’t live up to his example. I resolved to not be him so I married a women from a feminine primary household because I thought women must be right. I became BP as a reaction to his RP and popular culture. How weird is that?

    Anyway, about my kids, my ex turned them on me. My son is seeing the light, my daughter probably never will.

    We can lay third-wave feminism directly at the feet of family breakdown and absent fathers. If you’re a woman and you’ve never had a strong father you’ll spend your life rebelling against it and wanting it at the same time.

    Whenever I hear a young woman say “the patriarchy” I imagine her saying “my Daddy issues.” 90% of the time, it works.

    Rollo, I don’t know the answer to your questions but I know the direction. The direction is: regaining frame. Estranged Dads have to do it and men going through life have to. We get to set agenda.

  28. And what if your father is the blue one, Rollo?

    It affects a son deeply to watch his father fall from his graces. Mine is a living deadman to what he, at least, appeared to be previously.

  29. No idea how to help Minter. My own experiences with my dad were strained as a kid. I think he expected a baby adult but I was a putz as a kid, and usually in trouble. My old man was one of those very tough guys but extremely sensitive at least to me. He was red pill all the way, loved my mom to death but never relinquished the upper hand with her and was familiar with her very typical feminine shortcomings.

    What I mistook as anger when I fucked up as a kid was hurt. He expected more and my fuckups hurt him. He had a few issues for sure, was a little paranoid in his politics (Korean War vet, not shocking) and had trouble closing on home improvement projects sometimes, which was odd because he could close hard on that – and everything else including serious business ventures – quite easily.. it was tough because he was a smart accomplished guy. I joined the Army probably in part to get away from home in a permanent manner, to spread my wings. I got closer to him after I served in a war (like him) and became a paratrooper and did some other stuff *he* looked up to. We were equals after that or at least he treated me that way and I saw him as a close friend who “got” me.

    Despite the rough edges and him being 20 years gone a couple weeks ago, he’s still the yardstick against which I measure myself. No way can I top him in a couple areas, on the other hand I have some traits that help me do a few things superior to him. Ever had an accomplished best friend who was a bit of an asshole sometimes, but also a bit of a hero to you? That’s how I feel about my old man. I don’t feel like I have to beat him but when I’ve had some tough professional or personal times I ask myself what he’d do and then usually try to critique it, except in the cases where the answer is “totally lose his shit” and then I try to figure out a better way.

    If feel for you guys who didn’t have a strong father in your lives growing up. Don’t get me wrong, it sucked sometimes, I did not get along with him for the most part b/t/w ages 10 and 22. But still it fuckin’ sucks when a dad falls down on his primary job in life, which is to show up and parent his son. God damn the gynocracy for working so hard to denigrate and downgrade the role of men in the family.

  30. off the top of my head, take from as required…..

    “How to bring him along?”

    Don’t think you can initially. Anything red pill will bounce.
    Just be the example.
    Let it be emotional from his side but not yours.
    Make sure he knows you’re hearing him.
    You can’t say too much because it will likely be discussed with the ex.
    He doesn’t need your mistakes, regrets or ideas – right now he needs your love. No apologies you didn’t know any better.
    A lot must stem from your own father; how would you have liked your father to have communicated with you?

    My answer to that question: a father who actively engaged in my life by knowing what I’m doing and keeping abreast of developments even if they were not his direct interests, such that it would be easy for me to ask his advice and receive motivation to carry on achieving my own aims.
    .
    As such I’d be listening to my son, asking him what he’s doing , telling him to keep me posted on things, and making commitments to speak again.

    Opening up easy avenues for him to communicate with you will allow him in time to ask you how you handle(d) girls doing such and such. Then if he needs your new knowledge it’s open to him.

    If your daughter sees your son having regular straightforward non-problematic communication with you, she’ll probably start to feel she’s missing out.

  31. I love reading TRM, and I’ve gained a lot of insight from reading it over the years – for that, I give all the respect and brofives to Rollo for continuing it onward. I’ll be reading as long as you’ll be writing. However …

    This post is a bit off the mark. My personal history is one of a shitty father. I grew up very poor, and he was there maybe half the time, at clubs the other half, and blowing money on whatever hobby fancied him at the time in between. My mother somehow did her best and an amazing job raising two kids being married to such an asshole (actually marrying and having kids with the asshole is a whole other argument – the deed was done). My father left my mother by means of an affair when I was a teenager. Getting him to do anything responsible usually involved getting the courts to do it – child support, etc.

    He never voluntarily helped or paid for anything. Forget college. Because of this, to this day, I refuse to so much as speak to him. He doesn’t get a relationship with me now – it’s too late, although he always tries, always reaches out. That chance was gone because of his utter selfishness.

    Now, why I told that story was because my situation had nothing to do with RedPill awareness, nothing to do with the FI. If you conflate all these things together and start mixing in RP ideology with serious, long-term parental issues, you’re doing more harm than good here.

    You want a relationship with your kid? It depends. It has nothing to do with RP. What kind of father were you? If you were like mine above, there’s probably no chance. If you were there, if you were responsible, but the wife booted you and kept you away (be careful, you can rationalize she did this, but you did it yourself – children see that shit miles away), then you might have a chance. But do not mention any RP truths or anything related. It has no place in that conversation.

    Your first two words are I’m sorry. Your next two are I regret. That’s a start. If your children can accept those words, it’s a beginning. If they cannot, then that’s life unfortunately.

  32. I took the RP about two years ago and I’ve been slowly coming to grips with alot of the decisions I’ve made based on a BP mentality. Not pretty.

    My father committed suicide when he was 20. I was just 6 months old at the time.

    My grandfather was a womanizer and ended up in prison for murdering a woman he was having an affair with. My dad’s sister has told me that my grandfather would write letters to them from prison just to let them know how much he hated all of them, how ugly they were (false, my father had model good looks and a 180 IQ) and how he wished they had never been born. He would also tell them they had better be watching their backs because ‘I’ve got connections outside of these walls.’ Wow, threatening to kill your own flesh and blood. Damn. PURE MADNESS. I’m not married and don’t have children but I can’t imagine saying something like that to any child, much less my own.

    For a few years it was my dad, his older brother and his younger sister. My grandmother remarried and had four children with her 2nd husband. My dad’s older brother left home at 16 and never went back. This left my dad in the oldest child position. The only thing I’ve ever heard about my dad is, “My, what a good looking kid” and “What a nice kid. He’d give you the shirt off his back.” I think my dad developed the Nice Guy Syndrome so that he wouldn’t end up like his SOB father. I can’t blame him for not wanting to be like a guy who was verbally abusive, a womanizing adulterer (back in the 50s when Marriage 1.0 was in its Golden Age) and a murderer. I think for my father, his father became the enemy.

    My parents were high school sweethearts. They married one year after graduation and nine months later I was born. It’s my guess that my mother is the only woman that my dad was ever with. Once again, the total opposite of his father. My father enlisted in the Navy and went AWAL after about a year in the service. He was discharged and went to work in a factory back in his hometown. It wasn’t long after that that he committed suicide. I think all the responsibility of family life at nineteen frankly overwhelmed him. He used to tell my aunt: “I’ve got problems no one would understand.”

    Whenever I visit my dad’s mother she often makes the comment, “Your dad was always a momma’s boy.” I think my grandmother still resents my father for taking his own life, and that’s how she deals with the pain, labeling him a “mama’s boy.” He sounds like he probably was to an extent. But, he never really had a solid male around to teach him how to navigate adult life so what did she expect.

    I remember back in 1996 going over to my aunt’s house and my uncle was up from Florida. My aunt let me know that my grandfather had recently commited suicide at age 75 after spending most of his adult life in prison. I never met him once. My aunt: “He was a horrible person and I won’t miss him one bit.” My uncle informed me that my great-grandmother would whip my grandfather with a switch until his back was bloody. Whipping a little boy until his back is bleeding? WTF? My blood boils when I envision my great-grandmother whipping my grandfather. I think he grew up internalizing a lot of rage, and probably much of it associated with women. I don’t condone his horrible actions, but I understand it.

    By the time I was 23 both my father and grandfather had taken their own lives. Tragic legacy. Between the family craziness and my chronic physical pain, I’ve often felt like cashing it in. I’m not sure what keeps me going?

    So how do I feel about my own father? I hated him for many years. His decision wrecked our family. But, I’ve forgiven him. I understand that he never really got anything but hatred and abuse from his father. And that left a huge void in his life. It’s sad because I’ve always gotten the impression that he could have achieved some great things with the mind he was blessed with.

    Sorry for the rambling nature of this comment.

    My hats off to you men who are trying to be positive role models to your children. Don’t give up. Society needs you.

  33. My main suggestion is not to talk about these things over the phone. In my opinion the phone is a terrible, terrible medium for serious conversations. Any hope of rebuilbing your relationship with your son will be face to face, over a period of years. Actions speak louder than words, like with a woman, you’ll never convince her why she should be with you through debate, you show you’re a man worth being with and respecting by your character, achievements and accompanying behaviors. I don’t know your personal situation other than the laundry thats been aired in comment threads, but you probably have a lot of “inner game” to work on before you can expect your son to want to spend time with you, let alone look up to you.

  34. “What I’m asking is how to approach a young man already steeped in a Blue Pill feminized conditioning for the better part of his life and make him Red Pill aware?”

    Disclaimer: I’m no father (yet) – but have plenty of dicorce cases around me in my old SC.

    With that out of the way:
    I can only think of one way to not activly ‘do’ this in the way of a prescribed formula, but passivly *achieve* this over time:
    1. Keep a casual contact, so that information filters through.
    2. Be the best man you can be according to what is written here and on good PU-sites around the world: Don’t be the fat, sad looser, if you can even dodge out of paying alimony – be as strong and successful *on your own*as possible. And fuck more. 🙂

    Seen it working with two guys, who really took the wake-up call.
    Also seen three other guys (classic beta-divorce stories/guys in their thierties) who tried the FI-way of ‘good communication’, ‘taking it like a man’ etc. pp. – their sons and daugthers do not respect them AT ALL, even though they are still very young ( 8, 5, 9 respectivly).

    With that said – from what I see, it still is incredibly hard.
    But then again, what isn’t *supposed* to work from the FI-POV (becoming more alpha, disregarding the ex-wife as much as possible, being strong and successful and openly sexual) seems to really “bend the reality” of the matrix – with ex-wifes lamenting and trying to put their ex-husband down and the kids “against all facts” looking up to them, asking about them etc. pp.

  35. I think the best move would be to ‘lead by example’ and give it time. I’d say get involved in his life and then show him the way (by example, don’t force it). I believe that over time the FI conditioning (plus any bad blood or feelings about dad) is “washed away” and a new foundation (a masculine one) is set.

    Time is going to be the key here. The son wasn’t programmed over night…it’s going to take a bit to make the crossover.

  36. @ Rollo – Be careful about conflating things here. Without trying to start another argument with Minter, it seems that he voluntarily abandoned his kids for a long time and also didn’t financially support them. Divorce is a disaster and fathers face many challenges as I’ve shared on these pages. But if you abandon your kids, there is more going on the “the Blue Pill”, yeah?

    There is a related issue known as Parental Alienation that I think is well informed by the FI. It’s how father’s who don’t abandon their children and meet their financial responsibilities have their parenting role whittled away over the years down to nothing. I happened to me. The very short story is that if your ex-wife remarries when your kids are young, the new guy will functionally be their Dad. I did everything possible to stay involved but over 13 years, (we split when she was 4.5 and my ex remarried when she was 7) my daughter’s perception of me had become so denigrated due to my ex and her husband’s nonstop undermining of me. In fact, the way it played out is that, essentially, the new guy was treated like Dad when I wasn’t around, but when I was they hid that. There is a ton of evidence of this, really ridiculous things but I won’t bore you with it all, suffice it to say I was in denial and really never could understand what was happening because they were always sending mixed signals – classic female shit.

    It culminated in my daughter becoming increasingly hostile to me as she became an adult, and to the huge blowup that happened when she was 24. That short story is that I finally put my foot down and refused to be treated like shit by her anymore. The parallels between her behavior towards me and her mother’s behavior to me in our marriage were terrifying, btw. What was really going on is that I was insisting on being treated like her father, but she didn’t really see me that way on a very basic level. As an important aside, my daughter really went south on me after mom and the new hubby split up, and then he of dropped off the face of the earth on her. Her mom’s narrative is “men have ruined my life” (while dropping over 1 million USD on her, lol). My daughter seems to have internalized her mom’s narrative after the step-dad did his fade. Even worse, when he did show back up after a couple of years, he did so with his new girlfriend and this infuriated my daugther. She was reacting to this as HIS daughter, not mine. This is how me and many men get fucked.

    I believe that all fathers are set up to be diminished in their kids eyes while mothers receive a hagiography in our society today, even while married. I think many women today assume far greater parenting authority over children than the fathers. I remember my ex-wife overruling me right in front of my daughter when she was 3 and 4 years old. She would essentially override me and demean my authority as a parent nonstop. Combine this with how Dad’s are portrayed and the total domination of primary education by women and voila, Dad’s are “obsolete”.

    What to do? I shared my thoughts with String of Coins on the last post. Bottom line is go for shared custody or full custody. Visitation is a death of a thousand cuts. Go after you wife and have her found to be negligent or dangerous. I don’t care if you have to spike her vitamin pills so she fails a drug test after you accuse her of doing drugs in the home.

    And even then, as most Dads here will tell you, the world takes your children and does what it will with them far sooner than you realize. Your individual ability to override all this stuff in our institutions and culture is more limited than you think. Dad’s are disposable, Mom’s are not, that’s the lesson women are teaching the world. And the world is listening, including your children, boys and girls.

  37. @Fromm, re: “You want a relationship with your kid? It depends. It has nothing to do with RP. What kind of father were you? If you were like mine above, there’s probably no chance. If you were there, if you were responsible, but the wife booted you and kept you away (be careful, you can rationalize she did this, but you did it yourself – children see that shit miles away), then you might have a chance. But do not mention any RP truths or anything related. It has no place in that conversation.”

    I disagree. Most lousy fathers like the one you described would be given more of a chance than, what I believe is far more common situation of, the alienated nice guy that Glenn further discusses. With real problems the grown child can vent “How could you have been such a drunk all those years?” and then feel better. But against a nice guy father whom you hate merely for him being weak enough to love your mother, there is no such venting possible.

  38. It is never good to aspire to be a negative example “Don’t you do like I did.” But, and this is the key point, very often it makes sense to be a third-party negative example “Don’t you be like him.”

    For reasons we have not plumbed yet, women try very hard to explicitly raise their sons to be unreproductively successful with women. A post with this theme could be titled “Mother Knows Best”.

  39. Sometimes you have to cut your loses because there’s no going back. No one has control over the feelings of another person, and never will.

  40. “and also didn’t financially support them. ”
    Not arguing for neglecting children here – but even in Germany (where divorce laws have been unintentionally ‘shot in the foot’ in some very minor aspects by accidental ‘over-application’ of feminism) well-earning middle-class men (accomplished craftsmen, university degrees, stuff like that) are easily reduced to the living standart of what is called “burger flipper” in some parts of the English speaking world.

    From my my first game experiences with low-hangig fruit (picture HB5-single-moms here 🙂 ) I can tell you one thing: Those bitches (yes, intentional use of that word here) WITHOUT EXCEPTION have money and time for:
    1) Investing in pushing their SMV – going out, buying make-up (ever checked prices for beauty products? You might be surprised…), going to female centered sports, doing diets/buying non-licensed “health products”…
    2) Investing in useless decor and a (somtimes large) amount of non-practical objects / dust-collectors
    3) Pasttimes like smoking, drinking, sometimes recreational drug use on a weak level (smoking pot)
    4) Electronic gadgets – always the shiny and expensive ones, a smartphone MUST be from Apple and a new model etc.pp
    5) Consuming massive amounts of medication / medication expenses for “feel good products”, (ab)using the health care system for things like a “Mutter-Kind-Kur” (=three weeks paid vacation for mother and kid)…yes, that is no joke, Obamacare is nothing in comparison to these expenses…
    6) Feeding and keeping around pets like cats or dogs, where even a visit to the animal doctor can easily amount to 250 EUR for minor scratches or a small infection.

    Points 1-6, just to be safe on that one, are NOT referring to women of low social class or even working-class strata…middle class and above, mind you.
    For the uninitiated, these women look like regular citizens, have some sort of job or part-time job and are not sticking out in the streets at all.

    Not giving these bitches money or tricking in that area might be illegal – but even as a person not directly affected by that, I can not condem somebody for not paying. (And I’m not gettign started on what the socialization of these pure luxuary goods are taking out of the tax base, eg. from my money…)

    I cannot imagine what I would do, if I were affected by that drain – luckily, just that mindset keeps me from being the victim of that. 🙂

  41. ” But against a nice guy father whom you hate merely for him being weak enough to love your mother, there is no such venting possible.”

    I think jf12 touched a very important dynamic here:
    A “jerk father” (!= criminal, child abuse etc.) or a father that discovers his “inner jerk” (=normal masculine behaviour) after divorce offers:
    1) cognitive dissonance versus his mother’s FI-indoctrination: “But women hate that mom said and it SHOULDN’t work…” on a subconscious level
    2) a role model by indirect transmission
    3) unconscious attraction in the sense of triggering “copy”-behaviour: All children copy & assimilate what they are aware of, and this happens strongly if a behaviour is SUCCESSFUL in an immediate, instictivly observable way. (No matter what the ‘grown-ups’ say or even what a child thinks about it on the conscious level – of course this also happens with behaviour that is just indivdually successful and perhaps scorned by society)

  42. It’s all very Freudian, of course. “Your light saber is bigger than your father’s!!”

    Padma thinks hers is big too.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/padma-lakshmi-jokes-penis-new-ph-article-1.2097322

    This silly article nonetheless reinforces two important concepts.
    1) The *least* bit of visibly bulgey penisy-looking stuff counts as penis-y for women. It really does. Size isn’t nearly as relevant as over tpresence. You’d be surprised, very very surprised, if you didn’t already know this: If you visibly bulge, at all, she will notice. Yes, she will.
    2) Women are overjoyed at thinking of themselves as having a penis. Due to the apex fallacy, EVERY woman imagines that if she had penis then she could have sex with any woman whenever. Yes, it’s all true, every one of your suspicions.
    3) EVERY woman thinks that if she had a penis then women everywhere would want to see it and would want to be ordered to suck it. Yes, I’m perfectly serious. EVERY woman thinks this, which tells you the behavior women expect from a “real” man. Women cannot understand why a man bothers to be nice, at all.

  43. This is off-thread but I had to share it with you guys. I am working away here, listening to Pandora in my favorite coffee shop in town and this Stevie Nicks song comes on. It was recorded with Sheryl Crow too, but really, I never processed the lyrics of it before from a Red Pill POV. So much stuff like this hits me all the time now, it’s crazy. Okay, for your perusal.

    Strong Enough

    God, I feel like hell tonight
    Tears of rage I cannot fight
    I’d be the last to help you understand
    Are you strong enough to be my man?

    Nothing’s true and nothing’s right
    So let me be alone tonight
    Cause you can’t change the way I am
    Are you strong enough to be my man?

    Lie to me
    I promise I’ll believe
    Lie to me
    But please don’t leave

    I have a face I cannot show
    I make the rules up as I go
    It’s try and love me if you can
    Are you strong enough to be my man?

    When I’ve shown you that I just don’t care
    When I’m throwing punches in the air
    When I’m broken down and I can’t stand
    Will you be strong enough to be my man?

    Lie to me
    I promise I’ll believe
    Lie to me
    But please don’t leave

    And if you want to see Stevie and Sheryl sing it like their national fucking anthem, here you go http://youtu.be/Pdnpng-gHAE

    Part of why I’m freaking out lately is because of seeing shit like this that I’ve ignored for so much of my life. It’s like being on another planet, this post RP world

    @All – Question – Do other aggressive, dominant guys here find Beta guys just lashing out at them sometimes? My change in orientation is palpable I think and recently I’ve had conflicts with three Beta guys who just decided to give me shit, kind of randomly, over the past 3 months. I of course informed all of them to shut the fuck up, to take a look at what pathetic pricks they were before taking my fucking inventory, and that if they didn’t do so I would put them in the emergency room. The 25 yr old who did this was particularly shocked that a man twice his age and not as big would get in his face and threaten him with violence – he nearly pissed himself, fyi. He was trying to AMOG me and that’s a big mistake.

    I also think that my confidence in physical conflict has always been part of my social dominance. I must have had 100 fights before I gave up fighting at age 17. I’ve never initiated violence since. I’ve defended myself and threatened it, but never started 1 fight since then. But knowing that I can handle myself is huge in terms of how I carry myself.

    I’m very conscious of the image I project now, and how I carry myself and have been working on that for over a year. Posture, dress, eye contact, the smirk – and I think it really rubs some guys the wrong way. In another case where this older guy who looked like a tub of shit and apparently thought I should give him more deference in a conversation and went kind of crazy, at the same time, at the same time I was getting several IOIs from the young waitress who was hanging out with a young guy, as the bar was virtually empty, I was in a hotel the day after the storm. But she could not resist stealing glances at me even though she was obviously working this other guy when I showed up.

    I think a cocky, selfish prick arouses women but I think it also angers Betas. Any thoughts?

    Health update: Back in my workout regime full steam and wow, what a difference it makes to work with a good trainer and to do proper, timed high intensity workouts. Muscle mass seems to increase with each and every workout. Back to Vegas for this coming week and will be doing my best to game some hotties while out there. No surrender from this old bastard! My corpse will be hitting the the mortician if she’s a hot, young woman. Lol.

  44. re: “Do other aggressive, dominant guys here find Beta guys just lashing out at them sometimes?”

    I’ve never had a problem with beta or alpha men, ever. I’ve always been a hyperactive dork, thoroughly beta but thoroughly socially dominant (scfton knows my type very well btw, the weaponized nerd whom he has no problems saluting), and besides some prissy artsy types and the occasional foreign royalty, I’ve never had *any* man really AMOG at me.

    A lot of women AMOG at me, though.

  45. @Glenn, re: “Back to Vegas for this coming week and will be doing my best to game some hotties while out there.”

    Do be, uh, “safe”. Come to think of it, it has been a while since I spent any time in Vegas. The last big trip was a vendors conference for a few days, and at the time, several years ago, I was the designated fuddy duddy. I don’t drink or gamble, and even going with some “other” old ladies to see Celine was quite risque for me.

    But even at safe locations like restaurants, shopping, venue hospitality suites, not to mention (!) the streets, Vegas is filled with hotties. It probably would be way too easy for me to go overboard there, and I’m definitely not talkign about pros.

  46. My father did some really fucked up things and I got zero encouragement from my mother to reconnect with him later in life, in fact quite the opposite. My mother is no saint but we know how imbalanced life is for men in general these days.

    I was only able to forgive and forget after my emancipation (red pill awakening). I was able to play devil’s advocate and view life from his perspective as far as my mother was concerned.

    Without this realization and the drive to figure out the truth, it would’ve been impossible. I would’ve gone to the grave hating him, or at the very least, ended up indifferent to his existence.

  47. @jf12

    ‘I disagree. Most lousy fathers like the one you described would be given more of a chance than, what I believe is far more common situation of, the alienated nice guy that Glenn further discusses. With real problems the grown child can vent “How could you have been such a drunk all those years?” and then feel better. But against a nice guy father whom you hate merely for him being weak enough to love your mother, there is no such venting possible.’

    What? No.

  48. Agreeing and amplifying on Rollo’s statement that the FI is the Father–strategize as if the kid thinks of the FI as a god and become the devil who asks leading questions designed to open eyes. Don’t pretend to be a hero–instead say that you have made some mistakes and have learned a lot.

    Bring the young man into a man circle centered around some masculine activity like auto repair or fence-building, where the other old men are also RP. Then you RP guys occasionally discuss some RP concepts and give examples.

  49. @Fromm, re: “What? No.”

    Oh, because you said so.

    In actuality, the guilt that people feel for having wrongfully hated is much more self-sustaining, because imaginary wrongs are evidently harder to forgive than real wrongs.

  50. @ Rollo

    Taking a cue from Nathan and Jung above…we could go old-school Freud on this idea. Specifically, this can be seen as an Oedipal issue. Freud described the Oedipal Complex as a young boy falling in love with his mother (first love object) and competing with his father for her affections. If the father is a strong leader and man, the boy realizes that he cannot win. So, he “resolves” the conflict by identifying with his father and trying to emulate his masculinity, hoping to get a woman like his mother in the future for his efforts.

    With divorce and the FI involved, however, these young sons feel like they have “won” their mother’s affections over the father. So, they instead internalize the behavior that the mother praises and see the father as a negative example of the “loser”. Thus we are left with a “momma’s boy” and “white knight” who appeases women, instead of a masculine man who leads them.

    From that perspective, a divorced father can perhaps help his young son by 1) becoming a more alpha and masculine leader in his own life as an example, 2) live a social life that his son would like to emulate, and 3) invite that son into that life. Put plainly, what I am getting at here is that dad gets a younger/hotter/nicer girlfriend or step-mom, by acting like a man. Let his son bond with her, see how nice she is, and transfer some of his attachment/interest as a “love object” onto her.

    Then, the Oedipal Complex might reset over this new woman. Without a verbal argument on the father’s part, the son will start comparing his own mother to this new woman. Eventually, the son will desire whoever is more appealing and learn to pattern his life accordingly to attain that type of relationship. If the father is being masculine and creating a more desirable relationship, then the son will desire his new woman, emulate him to get something similar, successfully resolve the complex, and learn to be masculine himself.

  51. @Rollo, (tangent alert… obviously I can’t really answer the posted question)… but you deserve an update on my brother (24)… we just met with him this morning out for coffee at a bookstore, and he just looks so amazing – I am so freaking proud of him. I honestly haven’t talked with him much, he’s been finishing up his school and applying for jobs while working 2 jobs all at the same time, and SUPER involved in his school’s government chamber(?). This past year, he was elected their Senator (one of their top ones) and won the respect of so many peers – he’s just transformed… come so alive.

    My husband has honeslty been like a second father to him this past 8 years of us being married. You would think it’d be more of a “older brother” relationship, and I suppose it’s that way now… either way, my husband has taken on the role of “mentoring” him. My dad was so wonderful to me, we still have a great relationship where he sees us frequently and I can have the deepest conversations with him. But… I think women have to marry someone they consider better than their father in some way. When I was young (maybe 8) I heard a teacher on the playground bragging about how she used her relationship with her father (whom she obviously viewed as the most amazing man to walk the planet) against her husband – as a tool for manipulation She was laughing talking to another teacher about how if she wants anything, all she has to do is tell her husband that her DAD would’ve done it… yuck! Even at that young of an age this was just repulsive to me.

    And I’ve often thought (and even told my husband) what ways he just excels above what my dad was able to do. I obviously still have the utmost respect and adoration for my father – he just amazing and I can’t imagine my life without him, but at the same time, my husband is a better leader of our family, a better dad to boys, and doesn’t put up with disrespect at all from me. My poor dad had to deal with my mom (who ironically has a lot of feministic ways of thinking, even though she hates feminism and taught me so well about men and how to be a wonderful wife – she didn’t employ hardly anything that she taught me).

    My brother has a horrible relationship with our dad (so does my husband with his – lol but he gets along great with mine… probably because mine (now) has the utmost respect for him and treats him as such… my dad doesn’t respect my brother, and my brother was never forced to respect my dad – my mom always gave him an out in that way). It’s so hard for me to understand how one man can parent his two children so differently, I see my brother’s side, I see my dad’s side… it’s strange. BUT, your stuff and my husband mentoring him has replaced what my dad should’ve done for him while growing up… my husband’s even recently told me (around Christmas) that he feels like he’s a dad to him, even though he’s only about to be 30.

    So in short, he is “glowing” with the results of confidence and masculinity you could probably smell from miles away. It’s amazing to see him “in frame” I guess the words would be… it makes me so proud of him. It was wonderful to see it in person (I haven’t seen him in so long) this morning. Just thought the update might be nice….

  52. Humiliating your man:
    http://nypost.com/2015/01/30/humiliating-your-man-funny-but-not-a-great-idea/

    As Francis Childs put it in a column for the Daily Mail UK, “Get any group of women together and you can be sure they’ll talk about their husbands — and it will rarely be complimentary.”

    It’s become so commonplace to run down our spouses that Sally Bercow, publicity-mad wife of the speaker of the Commons, felt totally at ease painting her husband John as a henpecked domestic drudge on national television.”

    I’m not the first and I certainly won’t be the last person to say that there is a “fatherhood crisis” in America. A third of American children are now growing up without their dad in the home.

    And while there are promising signs that those fathers that do stay with their children are becoming more involved in their lives or at least want to be, this is still an area that needs improvement in American society.

    But I can tell you one way that women can ensure that men won’t help more with their kids: Mocking them when they falter. Posting their “please help” moment of desperation for all to see.

    As Childs put it, “In sharing tales about men’s incompetence, women are coming dangerously close to normalizing a corrosive and lasting disrespect for fathers that can only have devastating consequences.” Those consequences will most certainly undermine moms, by the way.

  53. @DrJ, re: “Let his son bond with her, see how nice she is, and transfer some of his attachment/interest as a “love object” onto her.”

    Yes! I am in total agreement.

  54. @Rollo, re: “Those consequences will most certainly undermine moms”

    Oh, yes. By far the most important aspect of humiliating her husband is that it slightly negatively affects her in the long run ….

  55. @gwadt, re: “I think women have to marry someone they consider better than their father in some way.”

    Yes, because hypergamy. But I think possibly I, as a skinny, ugly (honestly), poverty-stricken nerd, was brought home to her rich snobby parents by my Southern belle of a first wife as a way of rebellion, as a way of showing that even someone like me, in that way, was better in so *many* ways than her father. And, (again honestly), my second wife’s father thought I could have done a whole lot better than his daughter and was mightly confused what I saw in her, but extremely grateful to me for taking her.

  56. @gwadft, re: “So in short, he is “glowing” with the results of confidence and masculinity you could probably smell from miles away. It’s amazing to see him “in frame” I guess the words would be… it makes me so proud of him. It was wonderful to see it in person (I haven’t seen him in so long) this morning. Just thought the update might be nice….”

    Your feelings are nice, but I’d like some behavorial details if you’d be so kind. What is he *doing* that you consider so masculine? Showing dominance? I.e. the ability to force himself? Anything else?

  57. Hi everyone, especially Mark.

    First time I comment something in the Rational Male, I have been in the red pill for the last year and half and mostly I owed my successful triage treatment to you Rollo.

    I will share my story to you all since I am one of those blue pill conditioned kids you talk about in this post.

    I think is an interesting story and could be kind of exotic for you there in USA. I am a thirty eight year old man from Spain.
    My father was a bullfighter, not a matador but a banderillero, a helper of the main matador (There are classes in bullfighting too, here you can see one in action https://blogletteratura.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/banderillero1.jpg).
    He was not rich at all but still, back then (50s to 80s) there were one of the few times when people of the villages and small towns of rural Spain got some excitement.

    A bullfighter was the definition of alpha here. After all, risking your life against a half a ton bull on a glittery costume would get (and still does) most women in the village thirsty for those brave men cocks. And my father who was in that sense alpha as fuck was getting his share.

    He married my mother during that time and had five children, two sons and three daughters. I am the youngest one, and they had me very late (likely an attempt to save their marriage) when both were over forty. I do not have almost any fond memory of him, he taught me chess and made me go with him to wash his car, and even clean his capote (the bullfighter robe yellow and pink, the very well known red is reserved for the matador in the last act, you can see one here http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cFADCjBevY8/UlfOl-qT4II/AAAAAAAARDY/0876ShHW01A/s640/3.jpg) of blood by using an iron brush for pocket money. But I would not share almost any conversation with him, so I felt always very alien to him.

    So of course with so many chances and macho attitude my father was fucking around as long as I can remember. Back then most people would not divorce and even if my mother was really unhappy they did not divorce till almost her end. For as long as I got memory of the past the brainwashing and emotional incest from my mother to my siblings and me was rampant. I was trained to hate my father and then after few years when my puberty kick in, all males by default.

    I was lectured in how my father was the devil incarnated, how I would end up like him chasing up whores and how we all men were the same. Any time my father and me would talk I would expect my mother waiting for me in the kitchen ready to interrogate me on what we were talking about.
    Unsurprisingly I ended up hating him deeply, feeling awful about being a guy, about having sexual urges, etc.

    By my seventeen birthdays I was Sir Galahad the supe white knight, paladin of woman and the female imperative. Of course my life followed the pattern you can imagine.
    Thanks god I inherited both their looks and some charm otherwise I would not have known a pussy but from the movies.
    Years passed and it became unbearable, so early on my twenties I left Spain and moved to UK. I wanted to escape and put that life behind. Immediately as joke of fate a year after I left my mother got Alzheimer disease.

    My oldest sister pressured to return and take care of my mother with her. For first time I said no, I could not see myself going back there once I finally got my freedom. But the guilt still did not leave me. Imagine, my poor mother, first being married to Satan, then getting a destroying disease. So all this time I could not and would not criticised her in any way.

    My first catharsis came after she died eight years later, a few days after the funeral I it came out of me and told my sisters for first time how angry I was with her for making me hate my father. This thought grew and grew on me, Then by going to the deepest of a long depression including suicidal thoughts I finally managed to get to the other side of the tunnel.

    Three months ago I called my father, with a voice full of emotion I told him how I forgave him of the past, and that I could finally understood how my mother brainwashed my to hate him (In this I owe the manosphere a lot). In Christmas I went to see him, and for first time in my life I was able to spend a day with him without feeling shit and actually curious to know this man for first time.

    So Mark, unfortunately your son must walk this path alone, You can give him hints, and I am sure the cognitive dissonance is be there, it was all those years in me.

    It is mostly a matter of the paradigm your son has on genre and life. His vision about his past, His role as a man and what you represent as a father and the most important man (even if he would hate to recognize it) in his life.

    If you meet him he will fight to keep his vision on reality with teeth and passion, he will try to hurt you, so you lose control, therefore validating his thoughts. But in some part of his mind there will be doubt. Likely he already has some bad experiences with women that refute those ideas, me personally its how I got into the red pill.

    I read all your comments in the past Mark you made laugh more than once and I know you are a smart man but I think it is difficult for you to control your anger.

    So basically expect his attacks deflect them gently and control your anger, and then you may see the doubt in his eyes and find a chink on his armor.

    As a final thought I recommend meditation, that practice (no new age mumbo jumbo needed) and the manosphere has been the greatest findings of my life.

    Good luck.

  58. jf12 on January 31, 2015 at 1:07 pm
    @Fromm, re: “What? No.”

    “Oh, because you said so.

    In actuality, the guilt that people feel for having wrongfully hated is much more self-sustaining, because imaginary wrongs are evidently harder to forgive than real wrongs.”

    Imaginary wrongs? There’s nothing imaginary about not paying for or seeing your kid.

    You don’t get a ‘reconnection’ 20 years later once the kid is self-sustaining & already raised.

  59. @Fromm, re: “There’s nothing imaginary about not paying for or seeing your kid.”

    Those are the real wrongs, which as I’ve said are easier to forgive. But instead of those bad guys, there are millions and millions of nice guys who didn’t do anything wrong.

  60. Second to Glenn’s advice and ‘Is This Thing On?,’ and props to Razorwire.

    I don’t really have too much advice for Mark. I’m in my late 20’s, my parents are still together and have a great relationship with each other and with me. Posts like this remind me of what I all have to be grateful for; lots of men here have dealt with worse than having a strong one-itis bail on them, like I did.

    But it strikes me that it might be helpful if I describe the way I’ve had to grow the relationship I have with my father into adulthood. The past few years, and particularly the past few months, have seen me come to my own as a man a great deal – and I’ve had to adjust my perspectives of my parents as a result. There’s a lot of manosphere-specific things there, like how I see my mother reacting to my frame or lack thereof, but it’s been interesting for me to observe how I’ve come to regard my father as a fellow man (albeit one with greater frame and experience) rather than an unattainable mythic figure. And how I have suffered no disillusionment or disappointment during this process.

    I think it’s easy to demonize one’s father for having flaws. You grow up with a sense of fathers being complete, infallible, unshakeable. The man behind that myth dissapoints. That can lead to anger. For me, it did not. Because I saw a passionate, driven, kind man trying to do the best he could in an uncertain world. He loved his children, his wife, and his mission. And I found I could admire that, and found that I had some hope of aspiring to that. I don’t alway relate to him as an equal, of course – old habits – but I do see him as another person whom I can relate to.

    And I think that’s the essential part. Mark has, partly through human flaws and even more through gaslighting and brainwashing, been knocked from the tall pedestal of fatherhood. I think the place to rebuild is to establish oneself as another person, struggling and fighting in an imperfect world. Don’t complain, but maybe give, slowly, an impression of how difficult you have found this world. Humility helps with this. He thinks you’re low. So start low. Be the low person that doesn’t shatter his expectations and cause him to write you off as a liar. Then show why that low-ness exists in you, and how it does not comprise you. All this under the surface of course, the feminine conditioning probably precludes the possibility of direct unambiguous communication, or even (at first) of masculine ball-busting and teasing.

    Mark, this is hard. A lot rests on your ability to communicate emotions and ideas effectively. I’ve seen you write, and I don’t doubt you have the words and the ideas. Just watch the tone.

  61. It’s almost easier to address the particulars of a daughter with ‘daddy issues’ who’s absent father contributed to her ‘victim status’ condition than it is to consider the upbringing and feminine conditioning a boy receives in his father’s relative absence.

    I actually don’t agree with this. Try teaching empathy to a woman who’s never learned it and instead was only taught that her own needs are of primary importance at all times. It’s damn near impossible. Women learn empathy from their fathers.

    As for the questions. The only thing you can do that’s worth anything is to be the best example of masculinity you can. Your son has chosen resentment because they’ve been lied to by either mom or the FI, that’s his choice. You can’t force him to reconsider that choice. He has to see that your outlook on life, your lifestyle, and your example is worth following. So just be the best man you can be, and don’t hide the facts of your existence from him.

  62. @Glenn – re the lyrics of songs from a red-pill perspective, you are not the only one. Eventually you will gravitate to Red Pill music and pure instrumental music, to get a break from having feminist bullshit memes rammed into your mind all day long.

    Constant indoctrination is acutely painful.

  63. TL;DR your original post Rollo…

    To answer this:
    “Or perhaps how a newly red pill divorced father might approach his son, especially if there has been a period of estrangement.”

    I already know the answer here it’s actually really easy.

    I had this friend (Bob) who was fri-vorced by his suburbanite princess wife.
    Yes she was a mid manager moving up and he.. well he was just a techie doing network administration (pullin wires really no Cisco certs).

    He had a son who was 12 at the time of the divorce. The son was doin ok until the Ex married an uber-Beta and it all went to hell in a hand basket.
    The Beta was a high earner tech guy (programmer) etc etc kept putting Bob down around Jr you know the story.

    And yes the son started to pull away when he has 15. In fact Bob’s son was doing the “don’t want to leave my real home for week end visits” excuse tearing Bob up inside. Would have been a sad sad story except for the most unlikely of events. (strange how random chance changes everything)

    One day Bob drove up and had a girl named Vanessa was in his car. She had called and asked to be taken to work and Bob being mostly Beta still obliged. Now Vanessa is a knockout Honduran lady with eyes that you usually see in Vogue. She really is stunning with a personality to match.

    From what I heard it went down like this.
    ——————————————————–
    Ex Wife: Who is that?
    Bob: Oh she’s a friend who needed a ride.
    Bob Son: (stares)
    Ex Wife: As I was telling you he really doesn’t want to…
    Bob Son: No it’s ok mom let me get my stuff…
    Ex Wife: (mouth hangs open)
    meanwhile Jr makes a world record clothes grab and is by the car staring at Vanessa who is smiling sweetly. She so sweet she climbed in the back so the son could ride shotgun.

    And the scene that followed… Vanessa asked about Jr and all his life. Vanessa kept complementing Bob and how Jr could learn a few things about how to treat women from Bob…. on and on and on. It was amazing!
    Bob could not believe this was actually happening.

    Bob dropped her off at a restaurant (not her work but close). Vanessa sweetly kissed Bob on the cheek and asked when she would see him again. Bob demurred and said “really soon I hope”. With a flirtatious smile Vanessa was on her way… and things would never be the same.

    For all Jr talked about ALL WEEKEND LONG was Vanessa and how pretty she was. And how Bob could teach Jr might have more luck with girls. And really the rest is history. Today both Bob and Jr are firmly Red pill and have good looking girlfriends.

    But the story of Vanessa is what I will talk about next post.

  64. You see Beautiful Vanessa was a Stripper.

    I know I know all of the “WTF with his son in the car” comments are probably justified but hear me out.

    After Bob’s divorce he was a wreck. Productivity dropped and frankly I think his boss was probably going to get rid of him. I let him join a team I was leading doing a network update for a financial system. I don’t know how it came up but Bob said something like “I would give a lot just to touch a woman again.” Bob post divorce was a pathetic figure 50+ lbs overweight with stained button up shirt… yep probably going to need some help. Something inside of me just went out to this guy.

    “Ok wire up the 20 ports to this switch by end of day and I’ll find a woman for you to touch. He just looked startled. “I’m serious go”. And he did… worked hard and got the wiring done.

    After work I took him to a local strip club. (yes after getting a kitchen pass from the wifey… poor soul needs help honey no really I’ll be good). (yes after debating in the parking lot with this guy about going to “such a place”) sheesh… anyway we walk in pay the door and the first sight Bob saw was a Buxom D cup blonde moving from stage A to stage B with a only a smile and a thong on. Bob was smiling. We got settled and I explained how everything worked… I even donated a few 20s to get him started. And he was hooked… hooked a bit too well I later found out.
    I drove him home … he had this strange smile on his face.. and for a while his work improved, Pat on the back for the team leader motivating his team, Go Team.

    Of course it’s never that easy. Bob started going to the club regularly talking with the girls… yes a few took advantage of him. But to his credit not many and not for too much money. Vanessa became one of his “club friends”. And that’s how she ended up with his number and how she ended up in his car that fateful day.

    It was after the Vanessa Car ride that I heard how much he had been to the clubs and also that he was giving rides to strippers. Egad!
    He asked me what to do so he could give advice to his son. I said heck I don’t know isn’t there some dating tips or training out there? Bob went off to find out. He went to some seminar didn’t get any good advice but the guys in there talked about this book called “The Game” by Neil Strauss how good it was. Bob read it. Bob then sometime later read The Mystery Method. He insisted I read both… which I reluctantly did which in a way is great because It eventually led me to Rollo’s site.

    Anyway Long Story Short: Bob ate up the PUA stuff. He got better at gaming strippers and eventually girls who don’t do pole tricks. He helped his son with his girl problems and trained him in the ways of the Dark Force. His success seemed to give confidence and he dropped the weight and studied more Cisco stuff eventually becoming a Network Architect at the company. Bob is successful now.

    And it all started because a stripper with a heart of gold made a father look awesome in the eyes of his son.

    If you want to have a son’s undivided attention. All you have to do is demonstrate success with women. It’s a social proof world my friends.

  65. loved the Vanessa story, thanks

    suggestions:

    be authentic, in particular promise to and do answer questions honestly

    accomplish things and post about them, often the kids are using the net to find out about bio-dad (even if they are not on speak terms with you). Keep your linkedin/fb/twitter etc. up-to-date with good stuff, and don’t post bad stuff (got totally pissed and fucked two whores)

    keep contact info on your site/post/whatever

    if providing help, don’t provide money alone, but time and money or just your time

    maintain frame, no strong anger

    Questions:

    @glenn

    on the 19th you wrote, in part:

    “Like how I caused her to go bankrupt 15 years after we split – it was too much fun to watch her lose her house, marriage and credit all in a short 6 months when she stupidly overplayed her hand seeking more child support from me (when my daughter had just turned 18, lol, she’s such stupid cunt) and instead lost it all and i was only responsible for a portion of college. I think some woman she knew told her she could do so but she of course has no idea how the law actually works. I could have helped her or been more flexible to work out a transition, but instead I cut her off suddenly (legally) and brutally because she tried to play hardball with me. Funny without “child support” she could no longer afford her lifestyle and the whole house of cards built on stupid amounts of debt crumbled. And then the husband bolted too …”

    could your daughter blame you for this? Personally if my bio-dad caused my mom to lose her house, marriage and credit, even though he could have helped her, that would have me thinking a lot less of him. I might not say anything if he was still supporting me in college, but after college I might quit talking to him.

    @mark

    there has been the suggestion you bailed on your kids. I haven’t seen you own this, but perhaps you did somewhere or it isn’t true. If you did bail on the kids, could you discuss this here?

  66. Nice picture selection… I think that’s the exact moment when the words “I am your father.” are being said.

  67. I understand that Mark is seeking reconciliation here, and it may not even be warranted, but what would advise you men in a similar situation?

    Having been the child in this situation (marriage ended when I walked in on dad hitting mom, tried as best as a 7 year old can to stop him, got thrown against a closet door by my 31 year old father), I’d say there’s a strong possibility you’re fucked if you blew things up the way my father did. His is an extreme case of being a genuine scumbag, but then mom abused me a helluva more frequently than he did after they got a divorce and she moved me 1000 miles from dad (he was regularly making death threats against her), so I had two scumbags for parents.

    I also dealt with him telling easily disprovable lies (“I filed for the divorce” he said while I was looking at the papers with my mother as the plaintiff), being a blue pill simp in situations where my stepbrothers did something wrong and stepmother came down on me for it (“Dad, where the fuck were you?” “… she’s just like that.” “Thanks for the support.”), and generally whining about every fucking thing that went wrong in his life. On top of that, both parents had anger issues (to the point that I would have nightmares of my father’s voice screaming at me from about 3 or 4 years old until I was 24; I still occasionally have them) yet they’d both pull this constant “I don’t understand why you’re such an angry person, son!” like it was my fucking fault I grew up like the two examples I had.

    So there’s a litany of issues we’re looking at there. Let’s address them.

    1) Don’t blame your child for their own anger issues they’re going to face as a result of the failed marriage. It’s not their fault, and if you treat them as though it is or try to feign ignorance about your own role in it then shout down their arguments, it’s gonna explode on you. My manifested by basically telling my father to get lost out of my life 16 years ago. We’ve remained estranged, and I’ve felt no desire to fix it. Largely because I got tired of a relationship where the other person constantly blames you for everything they did wrong in your life.

    2) Don’t whine. I know we bitch on here about divorce rape and the shitty behavior of the ex and all that shit… if you want your kid to be a stoic, you’re gonna have to show him a stoic. Keep your anger under control and definitely don’t whine in front of them. Not saying don’t get angry, but don’t express it like a hysterical woman. Don’t complain about your life and their mother and every thing else that isn’t perfect in your life.

    3) Do not allow stepmother or step/half siblings to run roughshod over your child. There is no better way to show you’re a blue pill chump than to let the stepmother assert the value of her children over yours. You will be perceived as a bitch that can’t keep control of his household; distinctly not red pill. And make no mistake: if stepmom brings kids of her own to the marriage, she WILL trample your kids for hers. The shit’s biologically hardwired. Catch it early and defuse it. Do not tolerate it for even a moment. If you’re too afraid to deal with it, don’t get remarried. Pretty simple.

    4) Don’t lie to your kid. My mother, for all her psychological and physical abuse she put me through on a daily basis, never once told a lie to me. She got a bunch of shit wrong (because of her fucked views of life and psychological issues), but when there was a documented truth even if it cast her in an unfavorable light, she told me the truth. My father lied through his teeth on many many occasions with documented truths staring me in the face, basically proving all the cheating on my mother she claimed he’d done.

    5) Don’t threaten or fight with their mother. No matter how much of a fucking bitch she is, don’t give her ammo. She will tell them about it if you do. She will take them away from physical proximity of you and this will ruin any chance you have of happiness with the kids. Be as stiff-lipped with your ex as you can (stoicism, remember?) and do what it takes to keep the children near you. If you think it’s hard to stay in their life over alternating weekends plus 4 days a month, try it when you see them one month a year in the summer + a week at Christmas and no time in between.

    Finally, if we’re talking about trying to restore things in a situation where you’ve already failed to do all those and the kids are adults, you’re gonna have to approach your child with humility and seek mutual respect. My father never did this. He always approached me with the incredible audacity to smugly assume one day I’ll need my blue pill, lying, whiny bitch of a father in my life eventually. I don’t. He wants me in his life, I don’t need or want him in mine. See who’s got the control here? He can approach me on my terms, or he can’t approach me.

    If you can’t do that or if they just won’t give you an in (it’s entirely possible at some point the bridge was permanently burned), I know this is incredibly painful to say, but let them go. Accept that they will seek you out if they ever feel the need, and fill your life with other things and people in their place. I know it’s a child and you think you can’t do that, but you might have to in the end.

    Attempting to unplug a friend, even one in a trauma that makes him ready to hear Red Pill truths, is a difficult task, but when that man is your own son how do you go about it?

    Lead by example. Stay in their life and lead by example. Don’t try to explicitly talk about TRP. If they suffer a rough break up, listen to them, then carefully dissect everything the woman did. Do not use our terminology, and don’t try to seem “cool”. Just be matter of fact about it. This is how I’ve been unplugging friends who are 10-15 years younger than me. I simply dissect what a woman did to them or dissect the rejections they’ve faced, lay the truth out in plain words, then trust them as men to make the leap on their own.

    Part of being a man is learning to independently make your own decisions. Give your kid the example and the world view, and let him draw the logical conclusions on his own.

  68. @jr12

    ‘Those are the real wrongs, which as I’ve said are easier to forgive. But instead of those bad guys, there are millions and millions of nice guys who didn’t do anything wrong.’

    Are you serious with this? I’d rather my father be the biggest beta chump in existence and be a responsible father, regardless of the relationship or lack thereof with his wife/my mother. I’d much rather have someone to help me along as a child instead of an asshole drunk who’s never there or is never responsible for anything.

    Being a nice father from a failed marriage is much, muuuuch easier to reconcile than the asshole father who was worthless. The former can certainly be forgiven and reconciled – the latter? In my case, not a fucking chance.

  69. Keeping in mind that John Hughes, the consummate beta, married his first and only girlfriend, no different in that way from millions or billions of other men, he managed to write a redpill soliloquy, spoken by Ferris, containing:
    “he’s gonna marry the first girl he lays, and she’s gonna treat him like shit, because she will have given him what he has built up in his mind as the end-all, be-all of human existence. She won’t respect him, ’cause you can’t respect somebody who kisses your ass.”

    The difference in his case was Nancy kissed his, too. He gave up everything at the height of his career, just so they could hold hands and laugh together for the rest of his life. And she actually appreciated it. And hence his sons grew up strong family men too.

  70. @Fromm, re: “Being a nice father from a failed marriage is much, muuuuch easier to reconcile than the asshole father who was worthless.”

    That makes rational sense and hence is wrong when applied to humans. Seriously. My younger brother was an alcoholic asshole, inveterate cheater, worthless scum of a father, and beloved by his wife and daughters because of it.

  71. I was raised Red Pill and I didn’t even know it. I never heard my mother say anything bad about my father, ever. Not even once. All I remember is she’d always be at his service whenever he called to her, immediately, no questions asked.

    They would joke around a lot too. But my dad always did whatever he wanted to do. It was one of those “I’m the king and this is my castle” situations — except he walked the walk. My grandpa was the same way. Whatever he said was how it was going to be, no questions asked.

    The model I grew up with was that you respect your father. It’s just the way it was.

    Now my dad really was an asshole a lot of times. For real. Abusing me for one thing (less frequently) and deliberately emotionally neglecting me (most frequently) for another, because he enjoyed making me feel bad. We actually talked about this years later and he told me he didn’t know where he got that mean streak from. It was just some kind of sadistic pleasure he got out of causing me pain, emotionally and physically.

    But I could never in a million years imagine my mom telling me my father was ‘bad’ or badmouthing him in any way at all, or putting him down in any way at all.

    And even though he did majorly fuck up in a lot of ways, I still respect him. Not just because that’s the model I grew up with, but he did a lot that deserves respect.

    Providing for me and supporting me, for example. My sister resents my dad because of his more or less complete lack of involvement in our lives. Absolutely resents him for that. Even though he’s supported her financially to unimaginable degrees and has also spent a lot of his personal time at her house doing all kinds of work.

    As a child, all I could see was that my dad didn’t want to spend time with me, and that he had a mean streak that was mostly the only side of him I ever saw if we did happen to interact.

    — but I can still deeply appreciate that he did provide for me.

    What I really wanted was for him to teach me how to throw a ball. To spend time with me. To teach me skills. Prepare me for the world. To raise me. To spend time with me, care about my interests and my life, or generally have any interest in me. To raise me to be a man. To play an active role as a father. I felt like I didn’t exist to him, except for when he was yelling at me, threatening me or abusing me. Outside of that it was the potentially even worse feeling of feeling like I wasn’t even worth acknowledging. He would make fun of me calling me a pest and then tell me to go away or, a lot of times, would completely ignore me and not look at me or respond at all until I would just give up and leave and go play by myself.

    And those are legitimate complaints. But the difference here is it ends there with my sister — she doesn’t respect my dad and doesn’t appreciate everything he’s done for her.

    My dad is no saint. But I’m not either. It isn’t forgiving all the things he did wrong to acknowledge what he did right.

    And he did a lot right.

    A lot of times he would bring home candy and pastries for no reason just to surprise me and my sister. We always had food to eat (even though we never sat down and ate together at a table — the first time I went over a friend’s house and saw them sitting down together I didn’t understand what was going on and it made me extremely anxious and uncomfortable and I wanted to leave).

    Heh. As an adult I can realize how hard my dad worked. And he did work very, very hard when we were growing up. He got laid off two or three times and the stress that caused him to have to go out and find another job each time and wondering how he was going to support his family —

    — as a kid, especially since we had no relationship or interaction, I couldn’t understand any of that. And I hated him. As an adult I can look back and while for example the abuse and neglect weren’t right….

    …I know that he was genuinely doing the best he could to raise me.

    My sister still resents him, and she didn’t even get close to experiencing the worst from him. I got the brunt of that.

    But my mom and I never bonded. My sister and her did. When I was about 15, after being hospitalized for the first time for being suicidal, my dad and I started spending time together for really the first time in my life. He told me a lot later that when he found out I was having so many problems he just sat in his room with his head in his hands thinking,

    “What the hell did I do?”

    I terrorized my neighbor’s brother when I was younger. I was abused and I was just giving it to him. Someone smaller and weaker, like how I was smaller and weaker than my dad.

    A couple years ago, after not seeing him for God knows how many years — I found him. And all I did was go up to him and apologize. He tried to say “It’s okay, no, it’s okay.” And I told him it wasn’t okay, and that I was sorry I treated him that way, and he didn’t deserve that. And I left.

    I don’t know what impression that left. But I did that because I was acting on a belief.

    So my belief is that no one is beyond redemption. People might not forgive you, but then it’s on them.

    If you make amends, and you OPEN THE DOOR to communication — that’s your part. What else can you do?

    The thing here is, Red Pill or not, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter what someone’s resentment is based on, if it’s ‘justified’ or not. If they resent you, they resent you.

    It’s very important not to forget that point.

    Do you want to mend a relationship with someone, or do you want to convert someone to your way of thinking?

    Even if TRP is correct, which I believe firmly that it is — it doesn’t matter in these cases.

    The first key is opening the door to communication. Making amends. Even if you feel like you didn’t do anything wrong, to honor the other person’s feeling that they FELT like they were wronged —

    — well, that’s the first step.

    I haven’t done this with one of my best friends. Because I can’t swallow my pride. I don’t want to apologize because I don’t believe I did anything wrong, and I care more about feeling like I’m right than maintaining that relationship. Otherwise I would’ve made amends.

    So I have some thinking to do too.

    But yeah. Opening the doors of communication. And by “communication” I mean the potential for a relationship more than anything else — I should say, open the doors of “connection.”

    Lead by example is the way to go. Honor the other person’s feelings — you have to if you’re interested in maintaining a relationship with them — but don’t dishonor your own.

    Apologize, but only within reason. Acknowledging someone’s resentment of you, irrational or not, does not mean that you have to resent yourself.

    It’s a tricky balance. But all you can do is make the offer, reach out, show the person that you’re ready and willing to make amends — if they refuse?

    Then it’s their problem. If you come to someone with a gift and they don’t accept it, who does the gift belong to?

    That being said…go with the program. Letting people vent can be very good. But you have to stand your ground. Keeping in mind that this is all in the past now.

    My father really did do all these things to me. It was horrible. But who is doing it to me now when I go back there in my memories? Me. I’m the one replaying the movies. It’s me doing it to myself. In my memories, I’m my father. And I’m the young version of myself. I’m everyone in my mind — I’m the movie director. It was real, but it isn’t real anymore. But when I think of it, it feels as if it IS real and is happening right now. But it isn’t.

    Anyway, when I’m less tired I might write more about this. I had a horrible/nonexistent relationship with my dad for most of my life. And then things changed. I’m very lucky for that. And I have a lot of respect for my dad because of that. Just trying. Even though he still ended up doing a lot of the same things that pissed me off — just knowing that he at least TRIED to do something, at least he ACKNOWLEDGED the need for change, and that things weren’t okay, and had to be improved —

    — just trying. That was the turning point where I really came to respect my dad completely. I don’t want to say it “made up” for everything he put me through, but in some way it did.

    Everything isn’t sunshine and rainbows and I don’t know if my relationship with my father will ever be what I wanted it to be, or can ever be what I wanted it to be — in some ways it feels like it’s too late for that. I don’t know.

    But I do know that I respect him for trying. Not only now, but even in the past. He was doing the best he could and he supported and loved me in the only ways he knew how.

    That’s my perception. I’ve chosen to gradually let go of the anger and resentment towards my dad and focus on the positive qualities he’s exhibited, as far back as I can remember.

    It isn’t all horror stories. People can just get confused, thinking that you can’t have good stories, or they’ll negate the bad ones, as if the bad ones didn’t happen.

    I remember times when I was little that my dad would let me get into bed with him if I was having nightmares and couldn’t sleep. My mom would want me to get out and go back to my room, and he would more or less tell her to shut up and let me sleep in their bed.

    If I was ever having nightmares I would always go into my parents room and go to my dad’s side of the bed. I don’t remember one time ever going to my mom, or wanting to.

    So the ‘gray area’ includes the fact that in a lot of ways I saw my dad like Superman. I always felt protected and that my dad was very strong and very intelligent and could handle anything that came his way, and even though he didn’t instill that directly into me — he modeled it.

    It isn’t all good. But it isn’t all bad either. Seeing things in a ‘gray’ area has taken me a very, very, very long time. My whole life, more or less. I’ve always seen things in ‘black’ or ‘white’ — absolutes. Either someone’s good or they’re bad. I think a lot of that is a result of what I went through growing up.

    But yeah. A major thing that happened is that I changed. If I choose to see all the bad in my father and focus only on that, I’m the one carrying around a bad perception of him.

    Having a good perception doesn’t mean that what he did was good, or okay. But some of the things were. A lot of them, even. If I choose to focus on those I can see how my dad was a good example and role model to me in so many different ways.

    You can’t make someone do that. But validating their grievances while standing your ground…that’s where it starts. My dad did do that. At some point he acknowledged that he abused me although he tends to block those memories out because, as he told me one night a long time ago, he feels ashamed of all of them.

    The saga isn’t over yet. But yeah. I’m very tired right now and I do hope that what I think is a jumbled mess of a comment can have some useful parts in here for whoever’s reading through it. The Father-Son relationship is something that has been pivotal in my life and I think this topic is worth exploring more.

  72. @ redlight – The context wasn’t clear. When I informed my ex that I would cease paying child support to her and instead use that, and much more money to pay for my daughter’s college, she flipped out. But she’s stupid. You see, there was no language on paying for college in our divorce agreement. And in ’94 in NY, there was no positive obligation to pay for college, just as there was none for married parents. This changed under the law since then.

    So, when I said I would pay for college, I was going from paying 15k in child support a year to 37k per year. It was absurd for my ex to expect me to continue to pay her child support while my daughter was in college. But she thought she had some power, I think she was being directed by some other moronic divorced women in this. Well, it never went to court. You see, the law stipulated that college now be apportioned across both households in Connecticut, where she’d moved, so the end game would be that I would be on the hook for about 12k (the actually legal amount of child support, I paid her 20% more voluntarily), along with my ex paying 12k too. Not only would the child support be over, she would have to pay 1,000/month. This shut her up fast. My lawyer explained this to her, as she didn’t even have money for the lawyer she claimed she was going to sue me with – she was running a ruse on me to try and keep me paying he.

    She went bankrupt of her own accord. I was shocked by it actually. Child support was 1200/month, they both had jobs and made over 100k jointly, how could the lack of my child support payment have them go bankrupt?

    The truth is that they were probably going tits up at some point anyway as their cheap mortgage rate had reset and they were already behind and drowning in debt. I had no idea any of this was going on, I only found out afterwards. I was also completely shocked when it was suggested that it was my fault. For the first time in my life, I sat my daughter down and showed my daughter some numbers. We had never talked money, she had no idea how much money I gave her mom or what our agreement said or what the law was.

    So I laid it out. I gave my ex 220k over 13 years. Paid out another 100K plus on stuff and caring for my daughter. She had no idea that her mom got that much money from me. And she got super pissed at her Mom, not me. But I also relished it, like I said above. And she deserved it so richly after how badly she’d fucked with me. And she brought it all on herself by not even understanding our divorce agreement.

    The other thing is that my ex had my daughter believing that I was a deadbeat Dad – she literally thought I wasn’t pulling my weight, so this all worked against Mom at the time. Last. Given the above, do you now realize how absurd your idea is that should have ever considered “helping” my ex-wife and her husband at this point? I was facing my costs more than doubling to pay for college, there was no way I was ever giving her a fucking dime again. Why on earth should I have done so? After she threatened to go to war with me, I got a lawyer and served her up a well-deserved dish of reality.

    And my daughter had been pulling away for years already, I was in denial about it. It all happened gradually, like the death of a thousand cuts. We were still relatively close in those day. And this happened 6 years before my daughter lost her mind.

  73. @ Redlight – If I really wanted to fuck with her, I could have taken her to court and had her court ordered to pay 1000/month towards college. That would have been mean, but still, I should have done it.

  74. @Sun Wukong – I agree with all your points… I’m so sorry both your parents failed you so horribly 😦 You’re right about parents who are honest – their honesty when it will paint them in a bad light even, is what makes such a difference. And this statement is just so true:

    “Part of being a man is learning to independently make your own decisions. Give your kid the example and the world view, and let him draw the logical conclusions on his own.”

    @JF12 – I tried to reply, but I think it got stuck in moderation. Basically, all the confidence and dominance shows in his body language and the vibe he gives off now – totally different from when he was early college or in high school. He’s also changed his body physically… he was skinny and “scrawny” but has lots of muscle mass now and it just makes him look more like a man instead of a boy. He looks almost identical to actor Eric Dane now (truly handsome, with facial hair & now a bulked up body). He cared far too much what women thought of him, and was always putting them on a pedestal, but has since changed all that. Those are just a few examples, but basically he’s gone from a nice guy blue pill version of himself, to a truly confident, red pill alpha.

  75. Don’t know what to tell anybody with this kind of experience. Will try to relate mine in as few words as possible.

    I’ll turn 52 in a couple of weeks. I’ve been into redpill for about 2 years now. I live with a woman (wife) who I have because I received her in my house for 3, max 6 months, to help her (unknown to me at the time) out of a shitty situation, without an afterthought – I’ve never been able to get rid of her since.

    My parents divorced when I was p’haps 1 y/o, my mother eventually dumped me at an orphanage from where my grandmother salvaged me. When she got clued that my father wanted to take me in she had me put into a plane to another country, where she lived with her newly-wed beta chump, my step-father-to-be.

    During childhood I was abused constantly, what was to stop when they were told that I had a rather high IQ – about 3 stddev above average – and as consequence was sent to a “better” school out of town.

    As a consequence of childhood and my “family” I took several decisions, starting at about age 13, only one of which I regret, namely having no children. From my own experience and from seeing how my half-siblings were treated, I decided, still in my teens, to never have children of my own in order to not continue the pattern of abuse I had seen and experienced at home.

    That decision was obviated and did not help to wrangle with a love I had in my twenties and who decided to have an abortion, for whom I tried to do really everything in my power in order to give her the conditions so that she could have the child. The wrangling came to naught, and I still go to church sometimes and light a candle for that unborn child. After her, I’ve never again found a woman interested in having a child from me, and at this age finding one becomes increasingly difficult.

    Mulling it over, perhaps the only things I could tell men with a similar experience is to never let go of yourself, and at least as crucially important, to accept the red pill in all it’s harshness. These two will bring any men more happiness and wisdom you could ever imagine.

    Thanks Rollo for this article. When are your next books due BTW?

  76. I’m so sorry both your parents failed you so horribly

    Eh, I don’t need people feeling sorry for it. I’m not. I’ve fixed a lot of the damage they did, and I think in the process I’ve become an strong, introspective person. I’ve gotten a later start on a lot of aspects of life than I should have, but I think the end result has been a man that truly is his own person.

    When your parents are both shitbags, you tend to reject 99% of what they say and build your own beliefs and values. You come to realize that everything good in your life as an adult is the result of your own hard work and intelligence. You realize that even though your parents may have been more successful professionally, they weren’t very interesting people.

    People find conversations with me really interesting, and I attribute that to what I’ve taken from such a rough start to my life.

  77. The beginnings of my “red pill awakening” started before I got married. Unfortunately, I married a terrible woman. However, she knew that I would stand up for myself when I needed to, and I displayed it constantly throughout our marriage. After we had our son, I came up with one simple goal when it came to raising him. That goal was to teach him to become a successfully independent human being. He is now 8 years old and has taken to heart everything that I’ve taught him thus far.

    After me and my wife split up, I made it a goal to keep my son in my life for at least half of the time. When I was served with my divorce papers, my ex noted that she wanted to move out of town and take our son with her. After I saw that, I made sure I hired a good lawyer, and she quickly dropped the request. I suppose her new beta boyfriend had caused her memory to fail, and had forgotten that I’m one of the few men who stands up for himself.

    For any men out there who are on the verge of going through what I have, I highly encourage you to fight to keep your children in your lives. You don’t get a second chance here. You CANNOT have a boy being raised solely by his mother and expect him to gain any valuable masculine traits. EVERY grown man I’ve seen who was raised solely by his mother displays a significant lack of confidence. Every woman I’ve dated who’s been solely raised by her mother has displayed a lack of compassion for men. Work now to prevent problems later.

    For the men out there who are facing the uphill battle of trying to re-connect with their children, you’ve got a lot of work ahead of you. You’ve likely been demonized by the other parent, and you’re going to have to accept the fact that your child is going to be angry at you. Your response to their anger cannot be harsh. Remember, your child was raised by a woman, and therefore was brought up learning female coping mechanisms to deal with their anger, frustration, and sadness. You’re going to have to be patient and suck up a lot of your own emotions if you want to build a relationship with your now-grown children. You’re also going to have to accept that they are well past their prime learning age, and they may NEVER become red pill aware. The best you’ll be able to do is to give them red-pill advice, but only after you’ve begun to mend your relationship with them. You also cannot expect them to actually use the advice you give them. Your children have grown up with the blue pill, and are now very set in their ways.

  78. Sorry, I just found this post.

    I don’t seek reconciliation in the true sense of the word. I continue to say you all don’t know the whole story.

    And frankly, now that this process is going on, this all reminds me of what it was like “back in the day”, of being newly divorced, and the whole deal of dealing with the “ex and them” was very reminiscent of dealing with something like a flaky girl, dealing with her options. I was put into a position to tailor everything to deal with reality of choices other people made, yet tasked with making those choices work out for them. If they had a better offer, a better option, then I got shit on, the beta boy seeking approval, always ready to bend, always hoping for the next call, the next date.

    Now, I would like to counsel the boy. I would like to even say “Hey, here are my personal flaws. Here are the biggest mistakes I made. These are probably genetic character weaknesses you may confront.”

    And of course I would like to point out red pill truth.

    My crime is that I was 55 years old, getting laid off during the crash, then not getting back into the workforce.

    So I am guilty of not paying, not coming across with the cash. If I had the cash, then none of this happens. The difference between being the good divorced dad and the bad is cash.

    To me it’s all rule number 1 of the Feminine Imperative:

    Men Pay now.

    Rule Number 2

    Men that don’t follow rule number 1, for any reason, may be subject to abuse, isolation, rejection, ridicule, jail, whatever is necessary until that man begins to appropriately follow Rule Number 1.

    It’s well known I am married again. And it’s going pretty well. Every person in this house is happier now than they were before I got here. We have all evolved into this tight little ship. And the real key is that I feel that I am enhancing the sanity, the well being, and the enjoyment of all. Even the fucking dog. He comes to greet me every fucking morning upon hearing me stir.

    This is going to sound very arrogant. But I am using the rules of Rational Male and of Game on the situation. Partly to keep it going, but even more so for my own sanity. The first is the Iron Rule of Relationships: The one that wants the relationship has less power than the other.

    My life is fine for the first time in about 20 years. I don’t have crazy in my life. I don’t have to react to crazy. I don’t have to be abused by crazy. But letting these people back in exposes me to crazy again, exposes me to abuse that I can do without.

    And like Rocky vs “Clubber” Lang (Mr T), “I ain’t going down no more.”

    My opinion is this. I am one of best read motherfuckers in this community. I have done a buttload of research into the physical nature of depression, how to get out of it, how to stay out of it. The people that know me best now like me. I got good shit to say. I offer the path to sanity. I offer the path to keep the boy from getting his ass whipped by life. We have a place here for him if he wants it. We have a life here for him if he wants it. We have a future here in this town if he wants it.

    But I’ll be goddamed if I am gonna chase him around and plead with him to take it, to try to rebuild his relationship with me. I am nobody’s orbiter, nobody’s whipping boy.

    If we are the disposable gender and one woman threw me away, and then another woman decided one woman’s trash was another woman’s treasure after I figured out how to wipe the tarnish off, polish myself back up again, become another shiny, albiet old, penny, then that’s just too goddam bad. My shit is goin’ on now.

    I got this idea called “The Pareja Ideal” when it comes to women. It translates roughly to “The Ideal Pair”, but it really means “Mr Right” because the determination of whether the guy is or isn’t is subjective to the woman. If he is, then she invests, has good comportment, invests in the relationship, answers calls, comes on time, finds a way to be with the guy. If he isn’t, then she is a fucking shit, flakey, bitchy, dishonest, undependable. If I detect any behavior that tells me I am not this “Ideal Pareja” thing, then I am gone.

    And frankly, this idea works for me in every personal relationship. I am gonna try to bring value into the deal if someone doesn’t commit to it, in word and in deed, then fuck off.

    A long time before I got to this community, I realized how this game is rigged against husbands, and definitely against divorced men. And being here has shown me just how much, how pervasive, how common my experiences were and are. And as the time went by, and shit didn’t work out for me with them, I learned to accept it and go on.

    And I still say this and I don’t give a fuck who disagrees with me. It is not up to men to make the choices of women turn out OK for everyone.

    If a woman throws her husband away, and in the aftermath, if he crashes and burns in the depression that goes with it, if children have issues, if the money doesn’t go the way everyone wishes it would, then too goddam bad. I didn’t ask for none of this shit. She drove it all. Before, during, and after. Women need to stop throwing their families under the bus and project the bad shit that can and will happen when their own selfish drives allow them to take these actions.

    So thanks for the post. I didn’t really want it so much for myself, I just thought maybe you had more to add for others.

    My tact is this, “Shit happened. Get over it. It goes with being cursed by being born with a dick. This is how to not have it happen to you.”

  79. Sorry for the bad grammar in my previous comment. I also forgot some stuff.

    With my mother, I had a bad relation in childhood, and essentially stopped speaking to her at about age 14. As a consequence of redpill readings – here, Chateau, Roosh, RoK and a few others – I’ve come to the conclusion that she was less than a stellar woman – just read the articles over at RoK about negative traits for women to have and you’ll get an idea. As a mother she was pretty much what you can read in the books about toxic parents, to my siblings and to me. Still, despite her and my beta stepfather, I turned out the most redpill of all of us, or as I used to say before, they turned into lapdogs while I turned into a wolf. From following their lives from afar I see them as “established losers”, prototypical mindless cogs of the system, the kind of people I avoid normally.

    With my father I never had any kind of relation and he died a while ago. I also never had the urge to send him postcards with “fuck you”. He was simply unmentionable, and, what I found out about him was later in life. For one, he came from a rather affluent family, was liked by his friends, finished two university degrees and a doctorate, was a bona-fide poon-hunter, and managed to marry a respectable woman with whom he had two more children. That brother is a very beta doctor who recently married, the sister is a student of sculpture, divorced, and works part-time at a doctors office. They live in Arizona. My father died when they were rather young and they’ve been affected by growing up w/o father as well, going to seminars to learn cope with that just last year, while they are both in their 30s.

    My stepfather, well, what could I say about him: he married my mother who at the time already had a kid (me). His marriage went to shit despite high income, influential relationships and several more kids (my half-siblings). After he and my mother parted ways, he shacked up with a proletarian landwhale who gave him two more village idiots.

    As said before, accept the truth of the situation (your situation) no matter how ugly and harmful it may appear. It will set you free and open up new perspectives for your life. That is BTW how I understand “red pill”.

  80. As a general observation, there is a diversity of commenters’ experiences with their fathers, and their experiences with women were basically uncorrelated with their father’s redpillness.

  81. @glenn

    thanks for the reply. the “absurd your idea” was not mine but introduced by you when you said “I could have helped her or been more flexible to work out a transition”, I was wondering what your daughter’s feeling was about it, in particular how much your ex blamed you for the financial disaster to your daughter. In your reply, you told how you explained the numbers at the time to your daughter, and she became pissed at your ex. Still after this, might your ex be ranting on and on to your daughter how you caused everything bad in her life? If I understand it correctly after college (or at some point before this) you understandably reduced or eliminated funding your daughter, which might resonate with what her mom had said. In college would your daugher have taken any “blame the men” courses, partly financed by you?

  82. @mark

    you had asked “perhaps how a newly red pill divorced father might approach his son, especially if there has been a period of estrangement”

    In your reply this morning, you discussed how you would “like to counsel the boy”, not so much a “reconciliation in the true sense of the word” but trying to help. I would suggest there would need to be some form of reconciliation before he would be open to counsel, and this process would need several meetings and a lot of listening.

  83. @ redlight – My issues with my daughter stem from a well known phenomena called “Parental Alienation” – you seem to be unfamiliar with it. I was replaced as Dad and my conflict with her stemmed from me insisting that she treat me with respect as an adult, which she was not doing. She doesn’t really see me as her father after her mom’s (and the erstwhile step-dad’s) 13 year campaign of undermining and belittling and lying about me.

    If you are trying to help. you aren’t. If you think you are being clever, you’re not. My situation is nothing like Minter’s – I was present, loving, supportive and financially responsible to my daughter throughout her entire childhood – and was played like a rube.

    I’m not saying I’m without character defects, but what happened with my daughter is what brought me to the Red Pill world, as when she became her most vicious with at age 24, two of my sisters (to whom I was and am a father figure, particularly one) joined in with her denigration of me.

    I had become sick and lost my job and was in financial trouble for the first time in my daughter’s life. She was used to a high earning Dad who was always successful and spoiled the shit out of her and who swallowed everything and was always there. but suddenly not doing so well. I actually needed support (emotional) and help for the first time in my life. And the women who saw me as a father attacked me like vicious hyenas on a carcass.

    This is how I learned that men are disposable. After a lifetime of serving women, of supporting them, protecting them, spraying gobs of cash at them (one sister I’ve spent tens of thousands supporting including helping her out while in college) I was discarded like an old shoe. I found that they felt no obligation to me nor did they really care about my problems and challenges. What was most noticeable was how my male friends and family really were there for me, but women – particularly my daughter and those two younger sisters – found me disgusting.

    In a way, the huge argument/fight that blew all this up was just one giant shit test from my daughter, and it was her last one. You see, I’d had it. I’d reached my limit and told them all to go fuck themselves, especially my daughter. Just imagine this. I asked her at one point after this if she felt she had any obligation to at least be respectful of me given that in total, I’d spent about 400k raising her and was always there for her to the best of my ability. She said, “No, I don’t owe you a thing.”

    Fuck her. And fuck every single cunt on the face of the earth who screws over men and fathers this way. Being a father was the single most important thing in my life for 24 years. Not any more – I’m done. I’m not a slave and nowhere else in my life to do I have relationships like this that are completely one-sided. I’ve actually straightened it out with one sister, and have achieved a detente of sorts with the other one – a rabid radfem, so fuck her too. Oh yeah, she’s the one I raised in very real ways since she was an infant (my mom died giving birth to her and I made a solemn promise to my mom’s memory to try and be there for her because my dad is an insane fuckup). Not 7 years ago, this same sister asked me to walk her down the aisle when she was getting married, as an acknowledgement of my role as her father in many real ways. Fyi, being the “good man” that I used to be I asked her to not to denigrate my Dad in that way, as there was no point in it.

    Are you starting to get the picture? There is more, but really, let’s leave it alone. I didn’t write a note to Rollo looking for help and really don’t need any. My shit is handled and if my daughter wants me back in her life she can apologize and treat me well or go fuck herself. I’m good either way because I know I did the right thing, and ultimately that’s all a man has in this world.

  84. jf12: “As a general observation, there is a diversity of commenters’ experiences with their fathers, and their experiences with women were basically uncorrelated with their father’s redpillness.”

    I think that’s a good observation. There are a lot of things involved in RP awareness I suppose. My father is a natural leader and alpha, but that didn’t totally translate – I was BP as all hell. In my case I think it was an abusive (BPD) older brother; from a young age he punished any attempt from me to do or express what I wanted or felt. It was his reality or pain.

    This got better fast, by the time I was eight maybe it was a non-issue. But the path was set, in spite of looks and charisma I was always low-status because I deferred to everyone and everything, and so I never had experiences with girls that could have opened my eyes to what was going on wrt relationships (the Red Pill).

    But fast-forward to today, and I do think my father’s influence made a big difference. After the RP paradigm shift, a lot of masculinity/ game seems natural to me, like finding my true self. I’d internalized it, but had the wrong perspective to utilize it.

  85. Who ever acknowledged that children or ex-wives will appreciate you for what you contributed in the past?

    That wasn’t part of the red pill doctrine.

    And it is not just in regard to ex-wives and girlfriends. It extends to any person you deal with with a blue pill mindset.

    My son’s former baseball coach was all blue pill and he was famous for criticizing the players if they didn’t “perform for him in the last inning”.

    I had red pill wrestling coach in the ’70’s and after a prominent match in which our team lost by a few points and a few grumbles in the locker room about “the refs screwed us” were met with him reaming us out for even mentioning that. He taught us a life’s lesson by viciously berating at us. His message: You individuals didn’t perform well enough as a team to overcome the burden (or a tax in real life) of the match. Remember that and always do better in your performance than it takes to win–taxes included.

    The Feminine Imperative is a monstrous tax. And you have to always be performing. This includes performing for your blue pill children.

    I have understood and used red pill realities for the past 18 months. I’m not sad, or bitter. Nor have I had a nasty divorce. I still have a WILF and a 20 and 22 year old children. I consider Ian Ironwood writings most appropriate for me. I wipe my account balance clean. My dependents don’t owe me anything. Red pill has made me a better father to my son and daughter and a better husband to my wife. Nothing absolves me of the burden to keep performing going forward.

    I wouldn’t mind hearing more positive red pill stories.

    BTW, nothing gave me the better FRAME in regards to becoming a better father to my son than Jack Donovan’s book and re-engaging in weightlifting. I see myself as the fictional Walter White without the estrangement of the family and hope to not go down in a blaze of bullets one day. But I am not fearful of going down. That’s what my hindbrain is programmed for.

  86. @Mark

    “But I’ll be goddamed if I am gonna chase him around and plead with him to take it, to try to rebuild his relationship with me. I am nobody’s orbiter, nobody’s whipping boy.”

    You have this attitude, you’ll never have any kind of relationship with your kid.

    ‘The money wasn’t there’ can mean lots of things. It could mean you spent in on yourself. If it truly wasn’t there, then you should’ve communicated that to them if they were old enough at the time. If they weren’t, then bring that up with them now – that you regret not being able to take care of them.

    See, from the grown up kid’s point of view, you just absolved yourself from your responsibility as a parent, and like I told my father, go fuck yourself for wanting a relationship 20yrs after. You have to confront that fact – and the attitude above will just make it worse, not better.

  87. The question I keep seeing in these comments “How can I lead him to the red pill?” is misguided WRT grown sons.

    They are their own people. You can impose anything on them.

    What you can do, though, is inspire them to see the need for the red pill, and to want it.

    It can only come from within, they can’t be dragged there somehow, but you can open a new window for them and show them a new world through that window. That’s where inspiration comes from.

  88. Rollo writes some of the most insightful pieces in the manosphere. I just forwarded several RM articles to a buddy who is having trouble with his girlfriend. Although I’m a huge fan I’m not the first person to notice that in the comments section Rollo can sometimes come off as angry. I think I understand why. Pure and simple this topic contains enough emotional TNT to set off any man. I don’t have a single, significant complaint about my wife. She’s beautiful and I love her. And yet the more I delve into the manosphere, the more I become suspicious of all women. I’ve only been reading for a month or two and I’ve become cynical. Rollo has been writing for years. Thinking about this topic that intensely and on such a deep level has to take an emotional toll.

    The other topic I read about on a regular basis is the impending death of the 1st world’s monetary system on sites like http://www.zerohedge.com. That’s a subject infinitely more serious and yet the farcical nature of our political/financial system always brings a smile to my face.

    It’s odd that when money blows up I find it humorous. However when women screw over men it’s not funny. I feel an emotional response even when it’s not happening to me.

  89. @ sifrellc – “My dependents don’t owe me anything.” – Really? You don’t believe that children you raised and provided for owe you at least basic respect and civility? What kind of world is this that you live in? Fyi, when my daughter was 20 and 22, it appeared that we were getting along just fine to most people.

    Just see what happens if you get sick or lose your job and have financial difficulties. It ripped the scales from my eyes.

    The best part is that I’ve recovered. My business is going really well, i’m healthy, I’m approaching being fit after a year of effort. I gig frequently, have great friends and am close with those members of my family who treat me well. I’m doing it all for me now, on my terms and in a way in which puts my needs first. What other people want out of me is a distant second to my needs now, and that’s the RP mindset in a nutshell.

    I’ve finally gotten the message. Women can do without men – good, I was tired of carrying their lazy asses anyway. Now? Sisters, daughters, lovers, friends – if you are causing me unhappiness or friction in my life, you can hit the bricks. My male friends and my older brother are different though. And ladies, listen up here, these people actually possess a characteristic called “loyalty”. They support me. They see the best in me. They encouraged me when things went really sideways. A few loaned me money (and all got paid back) and others helped in other material ways. The contrast is impossible not to notice. Women scurried away as fast as they could like rats leaving a sinking ship, but even rats don’t spit at the ship and bite it and scratch at it and denigrate it on the way out. No, that was the women in my life who did that.

    Newsflash to all fathers here: Every woman is someone’s daughter. And they are all “like that”.

  90. @ Fromm

    “You have this attitude, you’ll never have any kind of relationship with your kid.”

    Yep.

    “See, from the grown up kid’s point of view, you just absolved yourself from your responsibility as a parent, and like I told my father, go fuck yourself for wanting a relationship 20yrs after. You have to confront that fact – and the attitude above will just make it worse, not better.”

    Double yep. Hit that nail right on the head.

    Whatever a person’s problem is, it’s real TO THEM. That has to be respected and acknowledged to maintain a connection. If you don’t want to respect it or acknowledge it, then admit you don’t want to and stop pursuing any kind of connection with whoever it is.

    I lost one of my friends last year because I couldn’t swallow my pride. There was a little ‘episode’ and basically, he wanted to make up. I didn’t. So I just ignored him. He was one of my best friends for about 5+ years.

    I felt like I didn’t do anything wrong and I was angry at him for blowing up. I felt pissed off because I felt like he was trying to hold me accountable for something I wasn’t accountable for.

    In reality, I was probably at least somewhat responsible. The idea of admitting that pisses me off for some reason. Probably because I feel like nobody ever gave me the gratification of saying “sorry” or holding themselves responsible for any of the horrible things they did to me.

    So I’ve modeled myself after that inadvertently. And the idea of giving that gratification and sympathy to anyone else when I’ve been denied it is actually pretty infuriating. Nobody was there for me, so why the fuck should I be there for anyone else?

    I can understand both sides. The having a problem with someone, and being angry and resentful because they don’t respect that you have a problem with them, and are more concerned with being ‘right’ than maintaining a relationship with you….

    …and not wanting to acknowledge someone else’s problem with you, because you feel like they have no valid reason for having a problem with you. Even if you “know” that their reality is real to them, it doesn’t matter — it doesn’t feel worth the effort of trying to connect with them. Feels like too much self-sacrifice. It just feels like they’re trying to dump all their garbage onto you. Trying to give me all that shit on top of everything else I’ve had to deal with and have to deal with now? Fuck you.

    Probably one of the main reasons maintaining connections with people can be such a challenge is because it forces us to take some inventory of ourselves.

    Of course, you don’t have to like everyone, family or not. It’s not like you can’t opt out and just burn bridges. That’s always an option. I’ve done that many, many times in my life. Although in reality more people have done it to me, and part of the reason I am the way I am now is having been rejected so many times after trying to mend relationships — even as a kid, if I pissed my dad off, he would just ignore me. I would go to apologize to him and try to make up and he would just completely ignore me as if I didn’t even exist. After a while I stopped apologizing and just gave up on trying to do anything to connect with him.

    Same with a lot of other people in my life — would try to apologize and make amends and just get ignored.

    It’s pretty obvious we’re social creatures, and trying to deny that is about as productive as trying to deny RP realities. Pissing up a rope.

    “No man is an island,” as the saying goes. I’ve fought that saying my whole life. Hasn’t worked out so well for me.

    But TRP has revealed to me that a lot of things didn’t work out for me because I wasn’t assertive/aggressive enough. It’s not all “communication is the key to everything.”

    So there’s that, and the whole meta level of communication vs. directly talking about things. No wonder the drug abuse and suicide rates are so high. This is the kind of stuff that keeps people up at night tossing and turning.

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