Loyalty & Hypergamy


I actually had another post warming up for this week, but I received the following correspondence from a reader whom I’ve promised to keep anonymous. I don’t do ‘guest posts’ on Rational Male, however I do repost some comments and email I receive on occasion, and in light of the recent discussions on the male concept of love and shit tests I thought I’d let this stand on its own today:


I know it’s been a long time since you posted your piece, “Soldiers”, but it struck a nerve with me. I’m not sure what kind of new insight (if any) you can get from my experiences, but I left the Air Force 6 years ago and have found the transition to civilian life much more difficult than I had expected. After reading your post and reflecting, I also realized that the values the military instilled into me set me up for a lot of difficulty with women down the road. I only wish I had something like your blog as a resource when I was 21.

I went to one of this country’s military academies at the age of 17. I am 31 now and am still friends with some of the guys I went through basic training with. The basic training experience was 6 weeks long, and physically and mentally very tough. At the academies this environment gets drawn out (in modified form) through the entire first year, where we are plebes and function as sort of second-class citizens beneath all upper classmen. There is a lot of adversity, a lot of animosity directed at you in such a system, but you come to realize later on it’s a kind of “tough love”. These experiences forced us all to bond with each other, and help each other out through some very rough times.

I spent too many years of my life hoping that I could find a relationship with a woman that would be on par with the relationship I had with my male military friends in terms of honesty, loyalty, trust, forthrightness. I ended and/or sabatoged a number of relationships with women because I was looking for this kind of “love” I had for my brothers and could never find it. I had always assumed that I would find a form of “love” that rivaled all other relationships I’d had previously. Loyalty was (and is) a major virtue for me, and I never felt like I was finding that with the women I dated. In the military I developed a pretty keen eye for bullshit, and every relationship I had with women, even the best ones, I found my bullshit alarms going off at some point. Now I realize what was tripping my bullshit alarm—hypergamy. Hypergamy is directly opposed to the concept of loyalty. I could tell when women were being shifty.

Part of the reason I could tell is because I had actually swallowed a version of the red pill as a cadet, though I’d never actually heard the term before. A few of my friends are what they call “naturals”. They helped to undo a lot of the extreme blue pill notions that I had been raised with.

Years of movies and TV and guidance from authority figures had trained me to look for “that special girl”. One of my friends in particular introduced the idea of being “kind of an ass” to girls, and only showing the nice side later (because I really was a nice kid). Never lead with your nice side, he advised me.

We also fucked a lot of girls with boyfriends. I saw some of the most disloyal and underhanded behavior out of women during that time. I remember when my friend was urging me to make a move on a girl we’d been talking to in a bar for some time. I said, “oh she has a boyfriend”. He asked, “well did she bring him up in conversation? Unless she brings it up it’s fair game. And you don’t address it either. Don’t say anything about the boyfriend, just keep the conversation elsewhere for the entire night.” It worked. Tactics like these worked over and over again, and while I enjoyed the hell out of this new found power, I was becoming more uncomfortable about the nature of women. It’s only due to my sense of morality and loyalty to other men in arms that I didn’t fuck the wife of an army guy who was deployed. I felt too disgusted with myself to go through with it… she, however, didn’t seem the least bit troubled by her marriage.

Fast forward to my adult life, I decided that I should be looking for a good woman to settle down with. See, I had never swallowed the Red Pill completely—I resisted the harsher implications of it. I told myself, NAWALT, and that I just needed to look for a good girl. The One. I understood so much that so many other guys don’t get, but I was still holding out hope for The One. I figured I would find this One at some point in grad school. After all, this is where all the smart, motivated, good girls are, right?

In two relationships the girls wanted to be exclusive with me. I said yes quickly, because exclusivity was what I wanted too. It wasn’t too long after that that my bullshit alarms got set off. One girl, leading into Christmas break, said she was going to a techno show in a city about an hour away from our school. I was planning on studying for a final, so I didn’t bother trying to go. As the date neared I realized I felt comfortable about the final and I wanted to go out that night. I asked to go with her—she said no. And this is where I could see the hamster frantically spinning its wheel.

All her reasons were obvious bullshit. I know when a girl is seeing another guy, because I’ve been the other guy. I know what the stories are like. I ended it. I was heartbroken. I wondered constantly whether I had made the right call. I missed her desperately, and I constantly questioned whether my radar had been off. My male friends (now thoroughly blue-pill, as I was attending a liberal civilian grad school) told me I was overreacting and being paranoid and jealous and not respecting her space, blah blah blah… A whole year later a girl I was friends with let slip that my ex actually was meeting another guy in the city, and fucked him the day after I dumped her.

No surprise—but I was quite upset that a few other girls I was “friends” with had known and never told me. They could have saved me a lot of grief. But then again, they were women—I don’t quite get it, but it’s like all the girls were sticking up for each other and covering for each other, even though they weren’t really close friends. It’s almost as if they felt they needed to cover up the tactics that women use, and keep the men from knowing about them—as though there was a driving need they had to keep men in the dark as to the true nature of women.

In fact, I have never been steered in the right direction in relationships by any woman. And this will bring me around to my next point—the feminine dominated civilian environment—especially academia.

The second grad school relationship followed a path that was remarkably similar to my first—in fact, looking back, I have had three major relationships, with girls who wanted to be exclusive, and they have ended because the girls were becoming involved with other men.

University life was especially difficult to adjust to. There was a lot less voicing of opinions and a lot more concern over offending others—that was one of the first things I noticed. I also noticed that many of the men seemed timid compared with my male military friends. See, this grad school was almost an extension of high school.

Approval by the females was very important, you could not anger them. The men were incredibly concerned with their popularity, and with getting to know the right people. I figured out early on that pissing off one of the cuter girls could lead to social death. And even apart from the girls, the men didn’t seem to act like men I had known.

There was a hierarchy in the school, and these young men followed the rules of this hierarchy. They would not challenge any male who was deemed to be “socially superior”. This blew my mind, because my military friends would never have accepted such a thing. We had a group, a crew, and we could always stand our ground, and if push ever came to shove then we might have to fight someone—if it meant protecting our dignity. I also figured out that physically standing my ground wasn’t socially acceptable in this environment.

I realize I may sound like some sort of thuggish asshole with a persecution complex, but I was responding to some blatant disrespect that shocked me. In the military, the men I knew wouldn’t openly disrespect or ridicule a man—unless they were looking for a fight. Actually, in the military I recall a lot more general respect between the men than I found in grad school. The grad school men felt like women to me—gossipy, petty. Overall, the male virtues that I had learned in the military became unimportant in the culture I found myself in.

Other values took priority, and I think this may be the Feminine Imperative you spoke of. Conflict was always to be avoided. Drastic effort must be taken to avoid offending others. Most of the men were willing to undercut each other for just a chance to be with one of the prettier girls. And the pretty girls—they walked on water, constantly had a harem of beta males tending to them. Actually, I watched several of these girls cheat on one boyfriend only to begin dating his friend. The social power of the prettier women cannot be overstated. I dated and dumped two pretty girls in a row (for the reasons I stated above) and quickly found myself on the outside of most social events.

I saw a lot of truth in your thoughts about military men. Some military men are some of the most Alpha dudes I’ve ever met. My military friends changed me from a dyed-in-the-wool beta to an Alpha that could fuck other dudes girlfriends with far too much ease, and stand up for himself (a modified pseudo-alpha, obviously I wouldn’t need to write this letter if I was a true natural alpha). But a lot of military men, Alpha though they are, have not actually swallowed the red pill completely. Somehow, I’d like to be able to get that message across, because there’s still a lot of NAWALT and One-itis in the military culture, even though it is a predominantly alpha culture. I am just grateful that I came across your blog.

After two failed relationships I was feeling like shit. I had tried looking for The One, and tried to have an Open and Honest relationship with lots of Communication and it failed dramatically. Now that I’ve found your blog I’ve come to terms with a lot of what had been plaguing me about women. I’m back to spinning plates, and I really do think it’s the best option for any male in today’s society. I’m still a little bitter about these red pill truths, but I’m no longer trying to fight against them.

I have a good correspondence with men in the military and it’s one of the more humbling aspects of writing what I do. I’ve had men on deployment send me pictures of their worn copy of The Rational Male on the barracks bed and I get chills. I’m glad I can help these guys transition from the idealism they have in the military to the often tragic Red Pill realities they encounter when they’re discharged.

This reader makes an interesting point I hadn’t considered in the Soldiers posts; there is a modicum of loyalty and respect men develop amongst themselves (even between different branches of the military) while enlisted that they believe will be relatable and respected by the women they encounter after their time in the military. They believe that the idealistic male concept of love (and in this case love for their military brothers) is the same concept women will share when they enter civilian life.

Young men entering into military life out of high school have (in most cases) 4 years to learn an idealism based on the Old Set of Books, is it any wonder they become suicidal after they are forced to come to terms with the disillusionment of that idealism in the face of the feminine-primary reality they enter when they’re discharged?

22 Veterans per day take their own lives.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

281 comments on “Loyalty & Hypergamy

  1. But then again, they were women—I don’t quite get it, but it’s like all the girls were sticking up for each other and covering for each other, even though they weren’t really close friends. It’s almost as if they felt they needed to cover up the tactics that women use, and keep the men from knowing about them—as though there was a driving need they had to keep men in the dark as to the true nature of women.

    There’s two dynamics going on here. One is that even though the Sandberg of the world are all about open hypergamy (because “Fuck you, I got mine” is the zeitgeist of our time), the rest of the women who are more average need the tactics and strategies to remain hidden for as long as possible in order to optimize THEIR hypergamy. Hence, don’t talk about what other girls do or the guys might get wise to your plans.

    The other is the social intelligence of women playing their political games. They k of the politics of the situation. “If I cover up for her, then in the future when I need to test a branch swing, she’ll cover for me.”

    It’s not that they’re banding together in the fashion men do. Men operate on a totally different system. Women perform actions for each other accruing political influence like a currency. Later they will spend it with the same circle to purchase favors. They are mercenaries and politicians, not a standing army loyal to one another.

    The military instills a great deal of military solipsism in men; this strengthens the incredibly important bonds among the military, but creates a massive blind spot when dealing with women or anyone else that plays political games.

  2. There are parallels between military service and fraternity life, though obviously the military is a more intense, long-term and potentially life threatening commitment (not counting hazing deaths in college of course). I was solidly blue pill in my fraternity and only got laid once when I was drunk and acted dominant for once. I was frustrated by the contradictions between the values of the organization, including the expectation to be “gentlemen” and the promiscuous and reckless sex that a portion of the guys were having. It makes sense now, but it was very confusing at the time when being an “honorable man” as I understood it, got me nothing with women, while the guys who were forward and sexual got laid a lot.

  3. ^^^^
    “They k of the politics of the situation.”

    They grasp the politics of the situation. Stupid auto correct.

  4. Damn do any of you soldiers ever think how ironic it is that you are over there fighting the “enemy” who knows how to put the female in their place behind a burqa to limit her hypergamy then come back and find your wife fucking some other dude? Makes you think who is the real enemy huh?

  5. Interesting, however still I would prefer to be part of that military brotherhood that at least teaches how to be a strong man at least when it comes to other things- I presume it’s easier to become alpha from that background than to not even try it and land in the place such as the one I described in ‘Old Pals’ post – living with close proximity to your parents, under the heavy iron shoe of some girl and being 100% beta thinking that this is how life should be.

  6. Wonder if at some point women will decide to not cover for other women with the purpose of upping their rank among men, would work imo. Or do they already do that when their hypergamy is triggered for a new man…

    Its good to hear soldiers have a sense of loyalty to each other I’ve never had a high opinion of the military. Also makes me kinda sad to hear how there’s good people in there who get put through the cluster fuck of society completely unprepared, at least we were slowly weaned into it without years of hiatus from the rest of the world.

    I’d ask Rollo what should I do to not live a bitter life hateful over society and women for their degenerate and unevolved behavior, but I already know the answer, neither of which is satisfactory. Mgtow or plates.

    Instead of hate, maybe I should instead pity women for being inferior and unevolved? I see clear as day most women are miserable and it’s usually their own doing. All they had to do was find a loving man and treat him well and they would be the happiest person on earth. Hypergamy is a source of misery for especially women themselves. I have a lot of contempt for it, but it might give me some peace to pity it as well.

    Thank you for your contributions rollo. I’m no alpha, but you’ve saved me from being a whipped cuckold, a generous gift if there ever was one.

  7. “The first rule of fight club is .. you don’t talk about fight club!”

    Funny how my military experience was just like this almost 30 years ago now. Sigh

    Anyway, as a member of the US Navy I can say that the Army and Marines are the true band of brothers. Even as a member of a small tight-nit unit (ie submarines) we never had the same level of brotherhood the Army guys did. Hence why I think the suicide rates for the Army are higher than any other branch of service.

    But, regardless, Rollo your observations on suicide are correct.

    It’s sad .. really sad we can’t reach more of these good men before they end their lives.

  8. I tried to stop reading RM for a little while. I find I go on RP binges and then I just end up bitter and jaded. Fuck though I keep getting sucked back in.
    I feel for the guys in the military, seems so many get screwed over by these chicks, universally, its horrid.

    School / university etc seems more crazy then ever now. I suppose when I was doing my Architecture degree I should have figured out some Red Pill truths more readily. I was Alpha, I had tons of social proof, I was on my mission to the exclusion of chicks, I just didn’t give a fuck about getting laid as I was so into my school work. But God damn. In first year I ended up chatting up some chick in second year. (We all worked, nay almost lived in our studio so it was entirely normal to spend 18-20 hours a day there) So a few nights of chatting up this chick and soon enough I had her bent over my drafting table having a grand old time. Went on like that for a few months until her 4th years finance finally figured it out.

    In a school of only 400 students, news travels quickly. Sure enough all the chicks didn’t tell because none of them wanted the fiancé. So I banged her with impunity until one night when he tried to kill me. She still kept coming back though even after that.

    Even when I lost my virginity. I had the hots for this girl but figured I’d never get he as she had a huge football playing boyfriend three years older then me and she was smokin hot. One night she just invited me over to her place to “watch a movie”, then an hour later she jumped me. There I was about to do the deed and it was her first time too. I asked her if she had just broken up with her boyfriend. “No she said, I just don’t want to give him this” (cherry). So I banged her and was on my way. Smile on my face, box checked off, but dam, bitches be cold!

  9. My reference to fight club is regarding women not telling on each others hypergamy. Sorry for the confusion.

  10. @rawr

    The only way for women to stop participating I that system is if being straight with men would optimize her hypergamy better than earning points with the ladies will. Basically getting caught once would has to result in complete and total social ostracism, and playing straight with men would have to guarantee every HB5 a committed HG10 for her participation. Not gonna happen.

  11. It pains me to read this. I can’t imagine anything crueler in this world than putting one’s life on the line to protect a society only to realize that the society you’re protecting is not merely unworthy of protection, but completely antithetical to those very virtues you thought you were protecting.

    @BangoTango Your point is duly noted. I’ve thought about this frequently since discovering the red pill and would like to see a detailed discussion from Rollo or someone of equal manosphere merit addressing Islamism and its merits relative to the contemporary Western feminine-primary decadence. The contemporary Western world lacks any coherent animating ethos and, in that vacuum, ideologies like that of Islamists appear attractive. The evidence of this can be seen in the growing popularity of conversion in Western Europe. The men of the West have become pussified and afraid to speak out for fear of insulting women broadly and losing out on the morally loose women that inhabit their lands.

  12. The Red Pill changed my entire life, not just my dating habits. Everything, from deploying positive charisma in business meetings, to deploying disinterested charm with every women I interact with. In a nutshell:
    Women experience life as it happens around them
    Men live their lives interacting with what’s around them.

    A man’s life is his. A woman’s life is whatever her girlfriends and maybe her man are making/giving/allowing.

    This is all my view of course, but it changed my life. I was taught not to interfere and mind my own business; when I took the red pill, I started to talk to everyone with the intention of enjoying myself. Nevermind the sex: ALL aspects of my life changed for the better.

    I get a smile from the hipster-beardboys. They grow beards because they’re lost, know they aren’t men, and don’t know what to do. They want to change and are grasping. But these guys, and there are LOTS of them, have never been exposed to men or maleness or whatever you want to call it. They don’t know how to be men because they’re been taught all of their lives that they should behave like women. And they’re miserable.

    I’ve seen both sides myself, similar to the author above. I’ve been in the Army, and I’ve been in liberal-college-land. You want to know why most people with college degrees today are incompetent fools? The author nailed it; if you’re required to think and act like women, you will NOT develop an open (some would call it “academic”) method of intercourse. Women play head games and fight for social dominance. Men discuss ideas and argue logic. Logic and ideas do not exist in today’s academic world, and we have the feminization of higher learning to thank for it.

    And now women are being allowed into combat positions in the military, and sexual harassment training is more important than combat readiness. How much longer will our fighting units be capable of actually fighting?

  13. I have sported a full beard for years, it’s a good look. Slowly going fifty shades of gray (woof woof). That said, I have noticed this face-fungus look too on the hipster-beardboys and it is a common look on “men” in commercials for cars, phones, and such things men are allowed to covet or buy. The thought I keep having is face fungus is a way of saying you are willing to be wee bit manly, but not too manly, that’s too scary or “oppressive”. Like a full commitment to facial hair of some sort is liable to be shamed as too much peacocking. By whom? Dunno. But it is a puzzle.

  14. Islam is not the solution. It is a brutal, evil religion. Its ultimate aim is the conquest and subjugation of the entire non-Muslim world. Islam turns life for non-Muslims into a living hell.

    There is a tendency for some alt-right-wingers to sympathize with Islam if not openly side with it. Many Trads do this for example. This is wrong for many reasons. European Christianity restrained female hypergamy and still managed to build a thriving, beautiful civilization that did not treat women as chattel. What ruined it was Liberalism. Sadly the seeds for destruction were sown with the Classical Liberals and metastasized into Leftism. We now live in a Leftist world; ie the world of the “feminine imperative” which is really a silly way to refer to the Frankfurt School Left.

    Our soldiers are fighting a ridiculous war. A war waged by converted Leftists, ie NeoCons, and now real Leftists. We are fighting a suicidal half assed war to defend Muslims from themselves which can’t be done. American war policy of “spreading democracy” or “winning the hearts and minds” or “spreading freedom to the Islamic world” is nothing more than a different version of the Leftist social engineering that has been applied to crime by the Left. Its an attempt to bribe the Muslim world into liking us. Our soldiers are dying for this crap and many of them know its a big lie.

    The solution sadly is something no-one outside of the hard right advocates; ie the total removal of ALL Muslims from Western nations. I don’t even think much war would be needed at all to suppress the Jihad impulse coming from the Islamic world. If there were no Muslims in Western nations there would be no Muslim aggression. This is an immigration issue not a military one. All those military deaths and amputations for nothing. I could spit.

    But ours is a weak, pathetic liberal world. The same reason why Western man cannot stand up to Islam and say it is fundamentally evil and ban it is the same reason why Western women no longer respect Western men. But the fact that Islam does understand that women need to be restrained does not mean that it has anything to offer. Its a plague that should be quarantined to its own lands. We don’t need it nor should we respect it.

  15. I’m going to point out the elephant in the room here–the soldier and his alpha friends fucked other men’s girlfriends.

    If you have respect for other men and moral superiority, you won’t mess around unless you know beyond a reasonable doubt the girl’s not spoken for.

    1. The only people who respect the “don’t fuck those already spoken for” rule are those men still working with the older set of rules. Women don’t live by those rules, and fuck anyone they please at anytime they desire. There exists a great deal of distress among men caused by this one very important point. Why, after all, should they respect the old rules when their women are not.

      To point out the elephant in your own argument-those girlfriends are all fucking other men. Don’t play the blue-pill game and blame the men. They’re just the one’s fucking them that night. These girlfriends are the ones cheating, not the dudes who are fucking them.

  16. The key concept: “In fact, I have never been steered in the right direction in relationships by any woman.”

    In general women’s advice will tend to women’s benefit, no surprise. To that extent, if your benefit is in opposition to the woman’s benefit then just do the opposite of what they say.

  17. re: military suicides

    Remember how for years the media was spinning the issue as though these guys were feeling guilty for being child-killers? All along, almost all of them were Dear John dumped.

  18. 10×10, you are so close. Now take the logical step and name the true enemy of the West. He lives among us, shapes the minds of young and old alike, you call him NeoConservative or the Frankfurt School but I call him the Jew. Every perversion introduced to our culture;feminism, Marxism,Modern Art, immigration, etc. is fathered by the Jew. Part of Red Pill Truth is naming the true enemy.

  19. BTW I know it is still very common for a guy to marry his girl right before he deploys, in order to try to keep her locked down while he is gone. Questions I have
    1) Does it work? Is a wife who marries right before he deploys tend to be more faithful than a girlfriend who he promises to marry after he returns?
    2) Under which circumstances, if any, has anyone ever demonstrated that absence makes the heart grow fonder?

  20. @Get Off My Lawn

    If you have respect for other men and moral superiority, you won’t mess around unless you know beyond a reasonable doubt the girl’s not spoken for.

    Bro knighting? Seriously? Dude get fucking real.

    I’ve said this before on here but I guess it bears repeating: 70% of the female population is at least overweight. That’s an automatic HB4 or less regardless of natural beauty potential. Another 10%-15% or so of the non-fatties are single moms. Automatic HB4 or less. We’re now looking at the remainder, roughly 15%, who are not automatically out. Assuming a normal distribution of “good looking” characteristics across the population, and assuming that about 25-30% of the female population have HB6+ good looks, that means that men who want an attractive woman (not super hot, just attractive) are competing for less than 5% of the population at large.

    Think about that for a moment. Those women quite literally live in cock paradise. They have their absolute pick of men. If you think the vast majority of that 5% are not some form of “taken” at any moment you’re sorely mistaken.

    If you want to date attractive women in this country with the obesity epidemic as a male, you must poach from other guys. Period. End of story. Yeah, it sucks. I wish it wasn’t that way, but it is. Get over your moral indignation about it, or go fuck fat chicks. As for me, I’d rather poach than put my dick in an overweight, over privileged hambeast.

    Anyone bro knighting under the circumstances we live in that expects to date anything other than overweight single moms is delusional and needs to wake up.

  21. @Get Off My Lawn

    I’m going to point out the elephant in the room here–the soldier and his alpha friends fucked other men’s girlfriends.

    The decision on who to have sex with lies with the woman, and the woman alone. In fact, to an unquestionably large degree, it is being made *only* their decision in the western world. Men are the ones who biologically want it 24/7, yet it is men who essentially have no say in whether intercourse takes place.

    You can say, “Those guys screwed wives…” but those men made no commitment to anyone to never screw another mans wife. Those wives made commitments to their husbands. How then am I supposed to hold men who offered no vow of commitment to the standard by which those women voluntarily bound themselves?

    It is presumptuous to impose ethical/moral standards on the party to an act that did not volunteer to avoid committing a moral outrage, when the other party clearly did so…. imho.

  22. re: poaching

    Prescinding the question of morality of any extra-marital relations, if you intend to engage in sex outside of the person you marry then inevitably you will poach. I guess the ethical question, again assuming fornication, is what level of poaching is acceptable? Obviously it is situational, but does that level really change when the husband/boyfriend is not physically present?

  23. re: “the idealistic male concept of love”

    In this case identical to “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

  24. All the male angst comes from men still being stuck in the Monogamy Paradigm (blue pill) while women are operating in the Serial Polygyny Paradigm (red pill).

    Since we are in a transition phase women are capable of optimising their sexual strategy by pursuing a dualistic scheme, to the extent that it has even been legally crystallised in marriage laws.

    Serial Polygyny for me but Monogamy for thee.

    The female’s resource is her sexual exclusivity while the male’s resource is his provisioning exclusivity, marriage no longer requires female sexual exclusivity but demands (under the threat of imprisonment ) male provisioning exclusivity.

    The solution is simple, play the same games the females are playing, spin plates.

    The most important thing is to deny ‘male provisioning exclusivity’, that’s the golden goose that facilitates the dualistic strategy.

    How one is to achieve that with children involved is beyond me, particularly given that all the law is designed to facilitate female serial polygyny was still insisting on monogamy male provisioning exclusivity.

  25. @jf12

    I guess the ethical question, again assuming fornication, is what level of poaching is acceptable?

    A fair question. I will not poach from friends/family, as I value my friends more than my lays. I generally avoid poaching married chicks, but not as a moral concern. It’s just too much of a pain in the ass if the husband finds out. However, if I can conceal enough information from her to keep him from finding me, I’d probably do it still. If she’s gonna cheat, she’s gonna cheat. I might as well be the one getting laid in the process if I can do so safely.

    Obviously it is situational, but does that level really change when the husband/boyfriend is not physically present?

    Husband? I’d avoid it with him present due to the aforementioned problems. Boyfriend? If he can’t keep her loyal while he’s present, that ain’t my problem. He needs to up his game, and I need to get my dick wet.

  26. Link from Rollo’s feed.
    “The significant effects for single women were dependent on a decrease in attractiveness ratings when they perceived the models’ mate rejection. However, the significant findings for coupled women relied on an increase in attractiveness ratings when they observed the models’ mate acceptance.”

    I firmly believe the previous confusion in the literature over mate-choice copying in human females has been due to the neglect of the overarching importance of rejection. The short answer is that the process by which preselection works is
    1) Anti-pre-rejection for singles
    2) Dread for couples

  27. When I read articles like this, despite all my knowledge of the stuff that’s discussed on this blog, and my real life experiences, I wonder: is it even possible to hold down a monogamous relationship?

    It seems that even if one was to keep their game sharper in marriage than it was when they first met their spouse, women would still end up drifting or “turning on them”. Of course Rollo has made it work but posts such as this one are scary.

    And the plight soldier face is upsetting. That suicide rate is hard to fathom. It just all seems fucked, really fucked.

  28. @Sun Wukong, re: “I will not poach from friends/family, as I value my friends more than my lays.”

    Ok, but women tend to cheat within their social circle. It’s kind of rare that a woman intends to be picked up by a random stranger. But I concur that random stranger PUA, being a preferred male strategy, is a lot more ethical than social circle cheating.

  29. @jf12

    I guess the ethical question, again assuming fornication, is what level of poaching is acceptable?

    I would need defined “levels” of poaching to even begin to think about it. But on that topic, I believe my thoughts line up with Sun’s.

    I still think the voluntary nature of marital commitment places all blame on the one who violates that commitment. Hook up culture is presumed at this point, so if you’re a married woman and you’re hooking up, you’re in the wrong, and not the single men engaged in “poaching”.

    So yes, when it comes down to it, if I am single and my married friend’s wife and I have sex… then imho, she is far far more to blame than I am. I say this even though I know culture and male-friend expectations means that I will lose that male friend. I am responsible for deciding to violate a gentleman’s agreement, she is responsible for destroying her family… The two are not remotely similar in degree, imho.

  30. Here’s a question on poaching.

    Presume you’re a decent PUA, and your friend is one as well. You find a girl who you believe you can be faithful to, and who can be faithful to you. If your buddy PUA sees that she can be unfaithful, and has sex with your potential fiance, and then tells you about it… did he not just do you a favor? Did he not just save you the trouble of committing to someone who clearly couldn’t remain exclusive on you?

    I expect to be shouted down into dust on this one. The only reason I mention it is because this is an area (guys getting upset at other guys for taking advantage of their cheating SO) where I think the FI has a very firm grip on the male psyche.

  31. Great post Rollo. And brings back lots of memories. Most of them bad.

    Like honeycomb I was Navy. But over 40 years ago. Viet Nam. On a carrier. I was the ship’s lawyer. Actually, the best job I ever had. But the fucking Dear John letters were a real burden. Almost every damn day. Telling the kid he would not be divorced raped (thanks to Congress and the Soldier’s and Sailors Civil Relief Act) was small comfort. No suicides but lots of acting out. This shit has been going on for centuries.

    Brother in law an AFA graduate and pilot. So I know what the commenter went through. At least he figured it out at a relatively young age. And before marriage. He is lucky.

  32. @Jeremy

    I don’t think it’s the FI. I think it’s about establishing a close group you can actually trust, hence my not being willing to poach from that group. If she came on to him, he turned her down, but then he came to tell me I’d appreciate it and she’d be out. If he went through with it, they’re both excised from my life; he just did me the favor of outting two people I couldn’t trust with one move.

    For the record, I’ve had this happen three times to me. Handled it the same way every time. Both people summarily removed from my life. Haven’t missed any of them.

  33. Fidelity is mostly if not completely the responsibility of the married/committed person, otherwise why did they bother giving that commitment in the first place. On the other hand the single non committed person is free to do as they please.

    Slightly off tangent, but i find it odd that when my friends have caught their gf’s cheating they get angry/violent/indignant at the man their gf has been seeing on the side, while the girl is let off lightly. Ive started see this playing out in hollywood/MSM on occasion.

  34. But Sun, your male friend didn’t violate you or any explicit agreement with you (I’m presuming there). I’m not knocking your decision to next anyone, that’s your decision (and in truth, I’ve done the same thing you described). Realistically your male friend did nothing to violate you as a person. If he tried to hide it from you, that’s one thing, but if he just outright says, “Yeah, your girl, she fucked me,” I think he’s actually doing you a favor. Like Rollo says, it’s the old set of books that has that gentleman’s agreement in it, and modern hook-up culture women don’t play by those rules.

    Obviously, human nature is what it is. I’m not saying I would have any easier time dealing with a guy friend doing that to me than you would. But I do honestly believe that I should be placing *all* of the blame on her.

  35. @Rollo

    I’d disagree with that, but then again I have 3 vivid examples in my own life of close friends not living up to it. I suppose it’s up to the individual to live by it or not. I do it for close friends, and expect it of them. If they’re unable to live up to it, I end the friendship.

    Trust pretty much defines male friendship for me. If I can’t trust a guy, I ain’t friends with him.

    1. I’ve actually had a similar experience when I was around 20. I was Blue Pill in a really bad way, and I had a similar betrayal, but it was really that Blue Pill idealism that was injured.

      I was pissed at my ‘friend’, but it was because of the situation that I went on to never investing myself too much in a woman’s fidelity. Even with the BPD I knew she ‘had it in her’ to cheat (and I was right).

      The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t mean the truth doesn’t hurt, and it doesn’t excuse you from learning from the consequences of that truth.

  36. @Jeremy

    Both people have outed themselves as untrustworthy. I appreciate that he has no specific agreement, but I also know that socially it’s a bad idea to keep friends around that will actively poach your women. I’ve dealt with the consequences of it. If you’re friends with a guy who has better game than you, better natural looks, and just hits on and fucks every chick you get, you’re actively working against your own self-interests by keeping him around.

    Women are hypergamous. If a dude can routinely activate the hypergamy in the women you meet and does so without considering the impact to you, he’s not much value in your life. Why would I purposely put myself in that situation?

  37. I hear you Sun, I hear you.

    But… by culture and by hard-coded-law at this point, the decision on who to have sex with is *entirely* in the hands of the females… and in doing this, they’ve removed all requirements on trusting men to discriminate on who they have sex with (responsibility begets power, and power requires responsibility, you wanted all the power ladies, so enjoy all the responsibility)… so male friends having sex with your flings at this point should be entirely forgiven.

    I’m just thinking outright logically here, I’m trying to keep emotion out of this thought process. Because yeah, I’d be pissed as hell if a guy friend I had did that to me… but in my gut I know I should not be so upset. Women have skewed the power ratios so badly, I can’t blame any guy for screwing with any woman, married or not.

  38. @Jeremy

    Put another way: knowing about hypergamy, and knowing that there’s always a guy better than you out there no matter how hard you work, why purposely keep one of them around making your life hard?

  39. Sun Wukong – “I will not poach from friends/family, as I value my friends more than my lays. I generally avoid poaching married chicks, but not as a moral concern. It’s just too much of a pain in the ass if the husband finds out.”

    In the current moral and ethical climate that seems a decent practical solution, but only because the husband is not enough of a pain in the ass. Sadly the law restricts men from violent retribution against poachers and the poached thus all responsibility for the actions of a cheating wife fall on the husband who failed to have the proper amount and style of game. And game is only permitted active form of mitigation against poaching.

    Of course marriage is a dead and hollow institution that is now more social farce than tragic personal delusion. I suppose one could argue poaching someone’s wife serves to illustrate how stupid a man has to be to commit to a women in such a legally binding manner. Or perhaps the nonchalance with which poaching is dismissed is sign of how little respect men have each other generally, as well as how little respect women have or men.

    But I do wonder how is poaching not the same as theiving or vandalism? If the affair results in a divorce with attendant financial costs is the cuckhold not a victim? What about the children if there are any? Do they not get to claim a great wrong has been done to them? Or is depriving them of their father no big deal?

    Obviously wives can’t be held to account, and it would be unfair to hold the men they cheat with to greater degree of responsibility. But it seems to me insane to make the cuckhold the only responsible party, and the only one who is burdened with the blame for why it happened, while having zero recourse.

  40. @Sun

    Women are hypergamous. If a dude can routinely activate the hypergamy in the women you meet and does so without considering the impact to you, he’s not much value in your life. Why would I purposely put myself in that situation?

    Ah, but your argument here precludes any notion of faithfulness in the woman you’ve chosen. She can’t both be capable of commitment to you, and a child in need of protection from your more-alpha buddies at the same time…

  41. @Jeremy

    so male friends having sex with your flings at this point should be entirely forgiven.

    No. Remember in earlier threads where we chastised Cupkate for not curbing her own hypergamy? Men can curb their polygyny, too. They still have a choice in the matter hence my laying out my own limits. The choice not to do so for close friends is the choice to accept the consequences: you will be ostracized by male friends with the self-respect to realize they can find more friends. I choose not to ostracize myself from friendships I value. Other guys don’t. I don’t need those guys in my life.

    but in my gut I know I should not be so upset.

    Why are you chastising yourself for feeling a natural human emotion about an experience that’s unpleasant? Look while I agree that we should operate largely on logic (and if you notice, my decision how to handle the situation IS backed by logic), there’s nothing wrong with feeling wronged by somebody you trusted. And in my own experience, the person I was most angry at was myself for trusting both people in spite of signs that I shouldn’t.

    Even if I fully remove emotion from the equation of my reaction, the logical choice is to excise both people. They’ve both shown that I cannot trust them to be in my life and should be removed for my self protection.

  42. Loyalty counts among men. Don’t have to have been in the service to experience that with other men. I was never in the service, but I know what loyalty is and I know why it is so important. That is what burns when looking for a woman; the available ones do not have it. At all.

    There do exist women who are loyal. Commonalities to these women: they grew up in traditional, typically religious settings with parents who stayed together, whose fathers were strong enough to command the daughters’ respect and adoration. Then they were raised and trained from birth accordingly; never allowed to become feral. Then they married young and remained married to that guy through thick and thin. Many posters here can point to their parents who stayed married for life as examples of what that looks like. Some can even point to siblings and friends who married well and are still married today as further examples.

    But that’s the thing: the women who actually absorbed their training are just about all married off now, that is the nature of the beast. For the rest of us, there are the scraps. Understand now that even if you find that woman who you think might be loyal, there is still the risk that she will turn on you.

    Bro’s before ho’s, that might have worked in the old days. But definitely not now, at least not among close friends and family. The sad part is that many of us are simply losing all trust for women to the point where enough of us will refuse to marry one and that will lead us into the demographic dead end down the road.

  43. @Jeremy

    She can’t both be capable of commitment to you, and a child in need of protection from your more-alpha buddies at the same time…

    Notice how I excise the woman as well? I’m not protecting her. I’m making my own situation easier. Look I accept that women routinely trade up. If I find one that doesn’t trade up given those circumstances, I’m looking at a unicorn and would consider keeping her if I dig her enough to stay loyal to her. I’m already assuming all women will bail given a higher quality man. But if I’m spinning plates, I don’t want higher quality men who routinely poach from me around. There’s enough of those (by my own admission, you notice) OUTSIDE my circle of friends that will take her at the drop of a hat. I don’t want to compete with my friends too. I want somewhere I don’t have to be competing every second of every day with every guy over women. I want to get and drop plates at my own behest, not because a friend I can’t trust is poaching them. That’s a pain in the ass I don’t need.

    1. Unrestrained polygyny taken to its extreme is just as detrimental as unrestrained Hypergamy. The difference is that the Feminine Imperative convinces men that unfettered Hypergamy is a benefit to them.

      Like I’ve said before, the purpose of feminism is maximally restricting male sexual strategy while maximally freeing women’s sexual strategy.

      When’s the last time you heard or read a discourse among women about restraining their Hypergamy over considerations of loyalty, respect or honor? It’s neither prudent or practical to limit Hypergamy in a feminine-primary social order.

      Hypergamy is inimical to the concept of honor, and is only too ready to use it as a tool to influence men to achieve the ends of their own sexual strategy.


  44. Keep in mind also I’m not saying this is some kind of moral absolute everybody has to obey; most of the public would say fucking a married woman is absolutely morally reprehensible yet I’ve done it and don’t feel bad about it. I’m just saying that it’s one of those things a guy has to decide for himself for his own reasons. If you won’t go for married chicks, cool. If you’ll fuck your friends’ chicks without hesitation, that’s fine too. I’m not judging you morally, I understand the logic, just understand that I’d have no desire to be your friend. If your game is tight I might even like to learn from you. But “friend” is not something I’d ever consider you.

    “Coach”? Maybe. “Friend”? No.

    And despite what I’m writing here, it’s not something I get tremendously emotional about anymore. I simply excise and move on with my life. I avoid emotional attachments to the women currently, and men that prove untrustworthy as friends aren’t worth fighting with or for. They’re simply disposed of.

  45. @Rollo

    I’ve actually had a similar experience when I was around 20. I was Blue Pill in a really bad way, and I had a similar betrayal, but it was really that Blue Pill idealism that was injured.

    Yes, back when I’d react angrily, it was about the BP idealism being shot down which is why I’d be only angry at the guy. The woman was pedestalized, but the guy wasn’t so I could be angry at him. These days it’s a simple logical choice. I debated exactly what Jeremy is saying (hence the reason that I’m not angry where you seem to think I might be, Jeremy), and came to the conclusion that it’s still right to remove both people from your life.

    There is an emotional catharsis to be had from it, but as an ongoing concern it’s a practical way to weed out people you can’t trust from your life. If a dude will fuck the chick you’re with, you can already be sure you can’t trust him with a lot of other shit. You’d have to be daft to keep him around.

    I’m not commenting on the morality of his actions, merely their practical implications in my life.

  46. @Jeremy re: question on poaching

    If it was my wife, then both the wife and buddy PUA would be in a shitload of trouble. Marriage definitely over. Continued friendship with buddy PUA? Possible, but complicated, since this is technically crossing a legal line in the biblical sense, which would be my only reason for marriage in the first place.

    If it was a fiancé, then buddy PUA would have just done me a huge favor a la the tradition of the Best Man’s duty to warn and make sure the groom is fully informed and knows exactly what he is doing before actually tying the knot. Buddy PUA might get punched, and might not, but beers are on me.

    If it was a girlfriend (LTR or other), NEXT! or demote her to FWB status, and go out for for beers, on me, with buddy PUA.

  47. @Rollo

    Agreed. I’ve tried to remove as many obstacles to my polygyny as I feel comfortable removing, and I’ve drawn a line I feel is reasonable. It’s up to each man to define his own line, as TRP is amoral. It simply describes how things are. It’s up to you to decide what you want to do with that knowledge.

    It’s like The Force and shit.

  48. Re: 22 soldiers a day kill themselves.

    For 10 years, Dan Rather gleefully counted off: “The Three-thousandth, one-hundred and sixty fourth soldier to die SINCE GEORGE BUSH DECLARED MISSION ACCOMPLISHED IN IRAQ.”

    Even during the battle of Fallujah we didn’t lose 22 soldiers a day! I think it was 100 dead in a 9 day battle. That is 1/2 what we are losing today and nobody cares! There is not a Republican to blame so the media won’t report it.

    Where is the newscaster informing us: “The Sixty-fifth thousand two hundred and ninetieth soldier to die since President Obama lost the war Bush had won by pulling all U.S. troops out of Iraq.”

    I think Rollo is right on. A lot of these suicides are not PTSD or whatever they want to claim. They are men coming back to a hopeless situation who fought, bled, and saw buddies die for a culture that holds soldiers in contempt, despises masculinity, makes fun of male sexuality, and constantly strives to give more and more power to women at the expense of men. Is this what I was fighting for?

    Semper Fi brothers.

  49. @bp

    But I do wonder how is poaching not the same as theiving or vandalism?

    Are you talking from the legal or the ethical standpoint?

    Legally, there’s laws against those two. There’s no laws against fucking a married person.

    Ethically, the stolen or vandalized object didn’t consent to being stolen or vandalized; presuming the sex was consensual, there was one person violating a marriage contract willingly and another person with no such obligation involved. The cuckold IS a victim and current marriage law IS fucked in that he can’t strip the woman of everything she owns and the kids. Should the other guy be legally liable though? I’m up in the air about that.

    Obviously in my own personal interest I’d say “No”, but would society benefit from it? Maybe. But it sure as hell would complicate contract law elsewhere if they pointed at marriage and said “Well somebody that hadn’t signed the contract was held responsible in that case, so we think that should be the case in this business contract dispute.” That’s a very sticky question, honestly. I’m not sure what the answer should be.

  50. It strikes me as some level of cognitive dissonance to absolve a man of any moral agency for his role in facilitating an affair with a hypergamous cheating woman. I’m not implying that his actions are of equal moral fault as those of the woman who is cheating (they are nowhere near it in fact since he’s made no agreement with the aggrieved party), but they’re certainly of questionable moral virtue. And frankly I think it’s kinda weak on the part of the man. When you pick up a single, unattached woman, you’re competing with every cock in the world. Successfully wooing a woman under those conditions is an accomplishment. When you’re actively picking up a woman in a relationship, you only have to demonstrate higher value (per her often clouded perception thereof) than a single man. That’s weak sauce.

    But here’s where the cognitive dissonance comes into play: we in the red pill sphere recognize hypergamy as a natural condition of women. While our culture in the past did yeoman’s work at restraining such, it no longer does and in fact actively encourages it. Men in the sphere will wax poetic about the higher degree of honor inherent in men as compared to women, but won’t treat their fellow man or even themselves with the slightest modicum of respect.

    If you’re going to bitch and moan about the duplicity of modern women on these esteemed blogs, then you yourself should act with some measure of honor not towards women, and not even towards other men, but to yourself. You can’t simultaneously rage against the horrid state of affairs our world is in while acting in a way that not merely enables it, but rewards it. If you successfully get a woman to give you access to her sexually, but then discover she in a relationship: call her out. You don’t have to call her the petty conniving slut she is but you can explain that your standards don’t begin and end with beauty, and that given your level of skill you’ve never had to concern yourself with going without simply because you demand some basic level of decency and class from those you bed.

    I’d wager that many on here are like me, having awakened to the bitter truths of the red pill after having had a painful lesson in it courtesy of a woman’s infidelity. It hurts, and then the knowledge that follows from reading people like Rollo is both eye opening and disillusioning. And from what I’ve seen in the manosphere, far too many project their hurt out into the world: “hey, it’s a cruel Sisyphean world and no one gives a fuck about me so why should I act with any respect towards them.” The higher man is the one who doesn’t react to painful reality by projecting it back out, but by internalizing the lessons learned, and not letting it change his frame. He cares not that a woman of loose character and looser legs will simply get a different cock. What matters is that she will not get his, because that is the true prize.

    As Nietzsche said: “Beware when fighting monsters that you yourself do not become a monster.”

    Oh, and spare me the knee jerk white knighting accusation malarkey. A white knight defends women. If anything, your willingness to bed a hypergamous whore only perpetuates their adultery and the feminine primary dystopia it has wrought. It’s the men who realize that women come and go and aren’t willing to compromise their value for another notch that are actually waging the war against the white knights who condone female behavior and the black knights who merely mimic their hypergamy.

  51. @sudden

    When I stopped giving a shit was when I realized not only was hypergamy rampant, but other dudes were enjoying the benefits by running roughshod over me. It became readily clear to me that the vast majority of men will take from me regardless of the situation given the chance.

    Additionally, the only married woman I slept with was interested in me for years, but I left it alone. Then he cheated on her. Clearly I should be concerned about his crocodile tears.

  52. The OP had no problem fucking other men’s girlfriends, but all of a sudden he has a moral crisis at the thought of fucking another man’s wife?
    To which I reply, You big pussy, sack up and fuck that whore, because if ya don’t someone else will, so it might as well be you.

    as for this question: “is it even possible to hold down a monogamous relationship?” Fuck no, especially in the military environs, all women are whores. A man’s only option nowadays is to be a ruthless player or go celibate.

  53. @sun

    It isn’t about respecting your fellow man at all. Yes, chances are that guy wouldn’t think twice about fucking you over if the tables turned. Who cares? His actions, whether hypothetical or actualized don’t register on my radar. And I’ve frankly been, if anything, thankful to the guy my wife left me for and proceeded to wife up for unintentionally forcing me into this community.

    The point is that I act independently of the world around me and in a way consistent with my value, the world at large be damned. My point of view is that the “eat pray fuck” is ruining the West, financially, culturally, and spiritually. If you feel the same way but you acquiesce to this world you only serve to reinforce it by your conceding. You’ve let it control your frame. My frame is such that I don’t care if it costs me an easy lay. There are plenty of attractive single women in my area, I’ll not be deprived of my sexual needs on account of turning away women in committed relationships.

  54. Your site does a great disservice perpetuating the myth of military superiority in any area, including loyalty. I am a ringknocker myself and I personally would not turn my back on any of my “brothers in arms.” The reason the poster describes a “brotherhood” and a “difficult transition into civilian life” is not because of any transcendent qualities of the military, but simply the comforts of a high-prestige government welfare program.

    Let’s just slaughter this last sacred cow of the truth movement. The modern military is one of the biggest enablers of the social justice ilk, it is prevalent everywhere and it has gotten to the point that flag grade appointments are made based on quotas instead of actual ability or experience. This emailer, like so many other nephews of congressmen and political hacks the inhabit military education knows the scam, but he’s still playing along with it. Case in point, he had no problem screwing females in a relationship, as long as it wasn’t one of his fellow sacred ones, but rather some faceless peasant who wasn’t “serving” the bankers, oops, I mean his country. I’m glad someone else was willing to point out the “elephant” on here, it gives me hope.

    Yes, I get the scarcity case. But scarcity is a double-edged sword; by jumping on an unscrupulous female you are acknowledging you are desperate for a lay and you have no abundance in your life. You’re also thrilled at the prospect of having “your turn,” like a guy who can’t wait to play Russian roulette after the last guy just got dragged away. You are rewarding a reprehensible female with the night of her life, and you are inviting loads of unintended consequences into your life. In short, play in the dumpster, expect to get dirty. Have some standards, grow up, take off your patriotic training wheels, and face the truth.

  55. @Rollo

    Actually something occurred to me following the exchange Jeremy and I just had. How is a guy supposed to deal with: “knowing about hypergamy, and knowing that there’s always a guy better than you out there no matter how hard you work”? This is actually one I struggle with.

    There’s the obvious “It’s hopeless to expect a committed long term relationship these days” which I’m leaning more and more towards. There’s outcome independence. But it’s such a blow to attempts to build self-confidence in realizing that there’s always going to be better out there than you, and you’re competing with them. How do you square that with seeing yourself as a prize? How do you avoid saying you’re the prize to a woman, but somewhere in the back of your mind honestly knowing there’s somebody better out there? It seems like this is another one of those things that being an oblivious natural alpha makes a lot easier; a barely cognizant Alpha Buddha wouldn’t even think about shit like that. He’d just do.

    How do you get across that barrier if it’s not in your nature?

  56. @ Sun Wukong

    The stolen or vandalized property is the sanctity of the marriage. The victim is the husband. A victim of a fraud perpetrated by the wife in collusion with the poacher. When marriage meant something it was a publicly recognized union that the community agreed to support and defend. Which is why there are rituals and public vows, with offical witnesses to validate. The involvement of the state, or some authority was to ensure parties outside that union didn’t actively interfere without consequence.

    Consent on the part of the wife means nothing without the consent of the husband because that’s the nature of the agreement. Or rather it was. Now it’s every man for himself, but not quite. It’s winner take all in an arena of limited competition. The poacher fucks the wife and fucks over the husband. The husband has no recourse. The poachers goals align with wife’s only because the current social and legal regime has effectively eliminated violence as both a deterrent and a consequence.

    In the old order the poacher was actively interfering in the marriage, violation the husbands perogatives, and usurping his privileges. But today the husband has no recognized marital perogatives, no privileges, and likely not enough self respect to demand his honor.

    Oh BTW, and not to get off too far on a legal tangent, recent case law regarding how businesses poach employees already addresses some of these issues.

  57. @Jeremy, re: “Did he not just save you the trouble of committing to someone who clearly couldn’t remain exclusive on you?”

    Yeah, but. It depends his level of effort expended. If he went through a lot of trouble to seduce the girlfriend then he didn’t do me any favors.

  58. @sudden

    It isn’t about respecting your fellow man at all.

    Oh really?

    Men in the sphere will wax poetic about the higher degree of honor inherent in men as compared to women, but won’t treat their fellow man or even themselves with the slightest modicum of respect.

    What was it not about again?

    Don’t try to fucking shame me by claiming other people are “controlling my frame” when clearly they’re controlling yours by getting you so upset. Take that shit elsewhere.

  59. @Jeremy, re: pissed

    That’s the correct reaction. She’s using the two of your in her hypergamy, not the other way around.

  60. @bp

    I think you’re torturing the metaphor a bit there, but I digress. So far as I know it’s never in our history been illegal to be the other man (or other woman, for that matter). It’s often been socially ostracizing, but not illegal. Why is that?

  61. That training that builds such loyalty is preparing you for some of the worst situation that you could possibly find yourself in. Where you need to make sure somebody will fight for you and you will fight for them. That can’t translate to someone who’s only going to be concerned with you fighting for them, (or benefiting them) because that’s what you’re supposed to do, and anything reciprocating is a major convenience. Regardless of how minor the analogous situation.
    A lot of aspects of basic training and the military unfortunately probably helps lead men to being blue pill with women, (and if add hollywood influenced ideals of women and military men) even if can be reinforcing red pill behavior when dealing with men.

  62. In what world does two men having to time-share a woman count as polygyny instead of hypergamy?

    Of all hypothetical sexual strategies, universal rampant promiscuity is probably the most equal, but it is out because most women won’t do it with most men.

    But two women do not mind sharing one of the top 20% of men, as much as men mind sharing with other men.

  63. @jf12

    In what world does two men having to time-share a woman count as polygyny instead of hypergamy?

    Girl World

    The same world that brought you “Hitting on me is Rape Culture!” and “If you’re hawt it’s cute, if you’re not it’s creepy!”

  64. The efficient cause of almost all couples’ relationship problems is that the woman has become (or always was) sexually unattracted to her “sexual” “partner”, and behaves accordingly, i.e. to drive the other away sexually. Whenever she becomes reattracted, the relationship almost always rebounds markedly and the couple become sexual and become partners again.

    I don’t think it’s true that it’s the woman’s selection of a “better” man that causes her to be disloyal. It is her deselection of the original man. It all goes back to the important of rejection instead of selection.

    I’m almost certain that during the times that she is attracted to her husband and frequently sexual with him that it is very difficult to convince a wife to cheat.

  65. The one side of a woman’s sexual loyalty is her not having sex with other men. But the other side of sexual loyalty is important too: her continuing to be sexually active with her sexual partner. “Not cheating” seems such a low bar.

  66. @sun

    Sure, I paid small lip service at the beginning to respecting fellow men, but you read enough to know that my point was entirely about self-respect and acquiescing to the larger feminine-primary social order than anything else. Let’s not be disingenuous in these discussions.

    As for the second bit, I certainly never implied any shame upon you. You’re here and I’ve read enough of what you’ve said here, I consider you a brother-in-arms of sorts. Moreover, I’m not suggesting that your frame is compromised by people. Rather, you’re operating as best you feel you can in a broad society characterized by hypergamy and female-primacy. In Roissian terms, you’re lounging poolside by not rejecting women whom you ordinarily would have little to no respect for. But what caught me as some measure of that cognitive dissonance is that upthread you discussed how you rule out single moms, which I take to mean that you have standards and can afford to have standards based on your ability to get it elsewhere. And presumably single moms violate your standards because you consider it a social ill, a pathology that is wilting the very fabric of traditional values and sexual market equilibrium. And on that, I fully agree. And that’s why you’re pushing back. You know there’s enough thirsty men in the world where a reasonably attractive single mom is gonna get dick, but you’ll deny her your essence, your better prize, out of principle. Is that principle some solidarity with the father saddled with child support payments that are buying her Jimmy Choos? I doubt it. I bet that principle is that you’re sick of watching the world burn before your eyes.

    But it strikes me as treating the symptom rather than the disease. The point I’m getting at is that single moms are nothing but a consequence of hypergamy. They don’t exist in such numbers in a world that punishes such behavior. And by being a willing participant in a woman’s deceit of her allegedly-committed partner, you only serve to further entrench the hypergamy that surrounds us. Believe me, I get the rebuttal: if she’s gonna cheat, she’s gonna cheat. But the same holds true with a single mom: If she’s a hard 6 and wants dick, she’s gonna get dick. There’s always enough thirst out there for her. But you can deny her yours because yours is better than what she will get. All I’m suggesting is that you treat hypergamous women in relationships the same way: by regarding their failings as unworthy of your seed.

    But if you really wanna turn the shiv for maximum effect: game them anyway, build the sexual tension, get them wanting it, and then when the moment is ripe and they’re presenting themselves to you on a silver platter that is the linens of the bed they share with another man every night: say no.* Knock her off of her entitled pedestal. Attractive women aren’t used to hearing no these days. Shit all over her and let her know that she doesn’t merit you. This is the only way we’ll ever combat the epidemic that is hypergamy, because beta-thirst is so widespread that she’ll have no trouble getting someone to spread her wide. Alternatively, if in the course of this you learn her significant other is a lefty SJW, cuckold that sumbish. That’d be the exception where the ends justify the means.

    *I fully recognize that this is some next level shit game wise, because it presumes a game so tight that she’s presenting herself without your physical sexual escalation. It requires both a disparity in SMV that has you higher than her, some skilled acting, and the will to say no. But if you can achieve that level with some practice, you can apply that elsewhere in ways that will be highly rewarding.

  67. Bit of a second to the writer, former infantry sergeant here. I struggled adjusting to civilian life, but I actually killed it with women coming out. The thing is simple. Girls are the enemy, the objective, the hill. Your mission is to subvert their defenses, assault the breach and lay fucking waste. Plus, even for a hardcore blue-piller, life in the infantry barracks will disabuse you of any pedestalizing with a quickness.
    An endless stream of women, most of them with husbands or boyfriends churn through the barracks, fucking anything that moves. The lads I served with thought nothing of handing off their putative girlfriend to their buddy for a quickie, or swapping girls three times a night. Women just don’t even register as something important. They get traded around like nothing. The divorce rate is well over 100%, as most infantrymen have two or three ex-wives. After a deployment, no one stays married. The team and the brothers are what matters, women are just a hole. Plenty of stupid privates get oneitis and marry a stripper or some shit, but they learn. By the time they get stripes, they’ve learned.

    Infantry joke: How can you tell which unit on a base is in the field? By whose wives are in the NCO’s club.

    I once threw a full-bird colonel’s wife out of a short-ass PFCs barracks room at three in the morning while on CQ. Dependahoes!

  68. Yeah, there’s always gonna be some guy out there better than you, once “new” qualifies as better, which the whole mainstream appears to be trying to convince them of these days.

    Massive reddit thing a couple weeks ago where a dude (supposedly, could’ve been fake) live-blogged discovering his wife’s cheating:


    …it’s almost like some kind of infidelity porn. Are peoples lives too boring?

    But sometimes I also wonder if there isn’t a biological driver working behind this. The way we do relationships these days, we generally fuck and/or co-habitate for Years before thinking of having a kid. Could the woman’s biology be sending her messages saying: “must be something wrong with this guy, he is fucking me and fucking me, but failing to get me pregnant, maybe he’s a dud”?

  69. @skenectady

    I agree wholeheartedly with what you said. Well, save one: blaming bankers for war-mongering. I work in finance and most of the people I interact with generally believe war should be an option only for defense of the homeland. Bankers and financeers are the ones that enable a modern economy to innovate and thrive and though they do so only out of self-interest, it doesn’t negate the contributions. They’re only widely castigated throughout the manosphere because of this perverse obsession with TEH JOOOOOS!!1!!1!!1!!! And yet growing up in a heavily jewish neighborhood with many a life long jewish friend, I’ve seen “the Chosen people” fucked over at least as much by the feminine-primary world as I have anyone else.

  70. @Sun Wukong

    Men can curb their polygyny, too. They still have a choice in the matter hence my laying out my own limits.

    Why are you chastising yourself for feeling a natural human emotion about an experience that’s unpleasant?

    I’m not, I’m taking red pill understanding to it’s extreme in this conversation. I feel no guilt over removing people from my life for betrayal. Those feelings at the time were real and their lack of remorse made it much easier.

    Men have a choice of whether or not to voluntarily give attention to a woman. That’s about the limit of their choice on the matter, because legally (and quite easily socially) she can preclude any male from giving her any attention whatsoever. Men have absolutely no choice in which woman will decide to open up their legs, that’s the woman’s decision, both in writ and in culture.

    I’m not going to pretend that seducing is not a positive action on the part of the male. But in today’s western culture, all choice w.r.t. sexual intercourse is completely removed from males, and placed in the hands of females at their own insistence. Because that choice is theirs, all responsibility for that choice is theirs, imho.

    We can presume that the concept of ownership begins with the ownership of self. Without self-ownership, attribution of even people’s most basic actions is nonsensical. Since I own my body, I own what my body does, what choices I make in terms of what to do with my body are also summarily owned by me. I think you would (as most would) agree that rape is about power. The reason it is wrong is because it removes all power of sexual choice/body control from a sentient being, it violates self-ownership.

    Seduction, or game, while a positive action on the part of a male, cannot be a violation of another. It is a sales pitch, a prospectus, a performance, a commercial jingle that just happens to work depending on how well it’s done and who is being sold to. Seduction is frankly, the only choice on the part of the male that is within his direct control when playing the game. As has been said, you can’t escape the game. I hesitate to fault any man for restraining his practice of game under any circumstances, to do so is to ask males to accept that their own sexual strategy must take a back seat to somewhat outdated notions of honor. If males could simply go out, exercise their power of choice, and tell any individual women “come home with me, we’ll fuck,” and have it work regardless of which women they told it to, they would do so. That would be power of choice over sex. But I think we both agree that men do not have that power. That power is reserved for women, which is why game is necessary in the first place.

    Since men only have power over their sales pitch, but not over with who or when they will have sex. It is fair to remove most responsibility for that choice from the men. The seduction process and the escalation, you can perhaps fault a friend for, but that’s not sex.

    Let’s suppose that you were leasing an automobile. This lease does not give you ownership over the vehicle, but it does give you all the rights and privileges towards the exclusive use of it. Now let’s suppose that the company that owns the vehicle lets your friend borrow the car for a day of off-roading without you knowing. Are you going to be angry at the friend, or the company who violated your lease agreement when you found out? Would you chastise the friend because of that?

    I honestly think, that most of male anger at being poached is a direct result of the FI convincing a lot of men of a power they do not have. It’s a result of females pretending that they were taken advantage of, when in fact they were fully aware of the choices they made to allow escalation to continue. We are being dual-natured by the FI. We’re being told that we must seduce and escalate (or else no pussy), but that when we escalate and sex is the result, the responsibility is entirely ours, even though she was the buyer, she was the one who accepted the sales pitch. It’s like holding a car salesman responsible for your wife getting a ferrari financed in your name. The salesman was just doing his job, the wife violated your trust. It’s a no-win scenario and I actually do think at this point that it’s women who imposed that thinking.

    It isn’t so black and white in real life. I admit I’m being too philosophical here. If I know that my friend deliberately seduced and escalated with someone they knew I was exclusive with, that’s a huge trust problem. But the more I ingest red pill, the more I’m willing to ignore men being men, and place blame on the women (who have committed themselves already) for failing to stop escalation, and opening their legs.

  71. @sudden

    But what caught me as some measure of that cognitive dissonance is that upthread you discussed how you rule out single moms, which I take to mean that you have standards and can afford to have standards based on your ability to get it elsewhere.

    I rule them out as a practical matter. Single moms are just a bad idea. They have no time for you, and their kids come first. From the perspective of enlightened self-interest, that’s a dumb idea. If I’m with a woman, I want her giving me attention, not some other dude’s spawn. Additionally, you knock her up you know you’re gonna be stuck with it.

    And presumably single moms violate your standards because you consider it a social ill, a pathology that is wilting the very fabric of traditional values and sexual market equilibrium.

    This is rather neutral in my considerations for dating. Any interest I would have in fixing the problem doesn’t come from traditionalism. It just comes from looking at the results: single moms raise shit kids. Two parents normally does a better job. I have a purely pragmatic view of the situation. I have no fantasies of fixing it through my actions though, I’m only aiming to avoid dealing with unnecessary difficulty in my own life.

    Single moms are a waste of a man’s time.

    And by being a willing participant in a woman’s deceit of her allegedly-committed partner, you only serve to further entrench the hypergamy that surrounds us.

    No. I am choosing to take what I can from this shit, because I can’t fix it. It was entrenched long before I came around. If you think you can reverse it, you have fun tilting at that windmill there, Don Quixote. When I realized how fucked up things were, I considered what impact I could have and it worked out to none in the grand scheme of things. I can help a few friends wake up, I can get what I can for myself while the gettin’s good, and I plan to leave the US as soon as possible to see if there’s any unicorns left elsewhere. If I have kids, in all likelihood their mother will not speak American english as her first language.

    But make no mistake that I have no illusions of our social situation being fixed in my lifetime. You see Japan’s declining birth rate? That’s where we’re headed. Caucasians in the US are already in steep decline. The only thing keeping us as a country from declining in population like Japan is that we lack the xenophobic immigration laws + our poor breed like mad thanks to how welfare works.

    My epiphany came from being exposed to enlightened self interest, and that’s what guides my actions. Not some dedication to a society that tossed me as a white male overboard 40 years ago. If they can do without me, that’s fine. Just don’t expect me to try and save any of it.

    But if you really wanna turn the shiv for maximum effect

    No, you misunderstand me. Christ, man. I’m not angry at single moms. Much like I’m not angry at women in general for hypergamy gone wild. I point and laugh at them, sure. But it’s biology + they were fed their own Blue Pill. I know how hard it is to wake up from it, so I’m not more angry at them than I am at BP betas.

    Single moms are a waste of my time. I mean any kind of time. Time I could spend gaming women I’m actually interested in. The fuck man, why do I care what happens to them? Why even consider how to spite them? They’re not even worth my spite. Maybe a sigh and a “Damn, what a shame” if she’s particularly cute, but not a moment more.

    I’m angry at Third Wave Feminism, but it’s an idea. You can’t kill an idea. You can’t even reasonably express your anger at it. And when it’s a big part of the modern society pushed via media and culture, you can’t even put the tiniest scratch in its effect. All you can do is become aware of how reality actually is, get through the anger by realizing how much bigger than you it is, and once you’re through it move on to doing what you can for yourself. That’s it.

    I don’t even need to consider how to twist a shiv on single moms or even hypergamous bitches. That won’t make me happy. What’ll make me happy is focusing on shit I enjoy. If that’s banging a married chick, whoopie. If it’s banging hot unmarried single chicks even better (though they’re in really short supply in the south). But dude, seriously, I don’t need to take out anger on them. That would be letting somebody else control my frame, and that’s not what I’m about.

    Controlling my frame is identifying what reality is, figuring out what I want from that actual reality, then going out to get it. Attacking women for perceived wrongs is not part of what I want.

  72. @D-man, re: biological drivers

    It doesn’t matter if he’s a dud. For example the most common scenario is the wife losing interest after popping out a kid or two. What seems to be the biological driver is the living together.

  73. Q. Can there be a marriage boot camp in which women learn loyalty, or else, and “sir yes sir”? I think so.
    Q. Could it be mandated, so that women *have* to undergo loyalty boot camps? I think so.
    Q. Could it work, i.e. make the women more loyal? I think so.
    Q. Would women permit it? Nope.

  74. @Bango Tango and Islam is very much the solution to the social destruction caused by feminism in the West. And 10×10’s rabid bigotry will not change the reality that Islam is a far more tolerant religion historically than Christianity. When the Muslims conquered the Middle East, the local Christians and Jews continued to live there and practice their religion. Contrast that with every effort by European Christians to destroy both Judaism and Islam. The Crusaders not only killed all the Jews and Muslims in Palestine, they killed all the Arab Christians as well for having dark skin like the enemy. The Crusaders even resorted to cannibalism as a terror tactic in the Holy Land.

    Look at the glory of Islamic Spain where Jews, Christians and Muslims created a vibrant culture that advanced art and science for 800 years. Muslims in Spain preserved the Greek philosophers even as the works of Plato and Aristotle were burned by Catholic Church for heresy (works like Plato’s Republic exist today as translations from Arabic, since the Greek documents were destroyed by the Church). And then contrast it to the Christian Inquisition that destroyed Islamic Spain, torturing and forcibly converting all the Spanish Muslims at threat of death, and expelling all Jews.

    And Islamic law is more liberal than biblical law. Women have no right to property or inheritance in the Bible — it was Islam that gave them that right (1300 years before it was allowed in Europe or America), even as it taught women to curb their hypergamy for the good of society. Polygyny was allowed by Islam as it recognized that men naturally want multiple sex partners. But the practice was regulated (can’t have more than four wives, must treat every wife equally) and and all children from multiple wives were legitimate. Contrast that to the Christian practice in Europe (tacitly endorsed by the Church) of official monogamy coupled with taking mistresses on the side. Children of the latter were denied legitimacy and inheritance rights by the Church, even as it allowed men to practice this unjust sexual system.

    Islam even treated slaves better than Christians. It is unlawful in Islam to separate slave children from their parents, which was the fundamental practice in the American South that tore apart millions of African families. And in Islam a slave owner is not permitted to have sex with his slave if she is already married. if she is not married, he can have sex with her, but any child of the union is born free and has immediate property rights from the estate of the father. Contrast that with American Christians who fathered “bastard” children with their slaves and then kept their own children in chains, denying their parentage. All blessed by pastors following the Bible.

    So which religion is the barbaric one?

    10x10s image of Islam is shaped by the tiny minority of extremist Wahhabis who reject mainstream Islam as “too liberal”. Guess who put those fanatics in power? The British imperialists, who helped the Saudis expel the moderate Hashemites from Mecca and take control of the heart of Islam, from where they have bred monsters like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, who spend most of their time killing mainstream Muslims. Guess who has been keeping the Saudis in power since then, even though they are despised as stupid fanatics by most Muslims? The West. The same West that is run by Social Justice Warriors who have corrupted its moral core with feminism. And it will be Divine Justice when it is mainstream Islam that defeats feminism at last.

    10×10 — Islam is an idea, not an ethnicity. Expel all the Muslim immigrants from the US (most of who are doctors, lawyers and engineers) and converts will pop up again, as the idea cannot be destroyed. Guess you will have to ban reading the Qur’an online too. Good luck with that.

    And for the record, I am a Muslim who grew up in New York City. I have multiple degrees, make well into the six figures and pay my taxes. And I am a registered Libertarian Party member and a fan of Ron Paul. Process that if you will.

  75. An older woman who is a very close friend of mine made an interesting statement this evening that dove tails into this post somewhat. She was never married, no children, had a few intense long term relationships in her life and remains close with one whom she almost married in her twenties over forty years ago. She is very well educated, masters degree and left Harvard while writing her dissertation on an English history subject. Would have a PHD From Harvard if she didn’t switch gears and go into banking, became a senior Vice President for a well respected international bank in the seventies. She worked in what was a predominately male environment and was quite sussessful, an exception to most women withou a doubt. I give you a rough description of her background, because I think it’s important. In my opinion she is able to communicate in a masculine way more than most women, more analytical and direct than any other woman I’ve known, yet quite feminine in the good way.

    Anyway, tonight we were discussing men and women’s behavior in the work place and she said she had observed that men will challenge each other, get mad, fight, resolve their differences and get over it. She said in her experience men do not hold long term grudges against each other and will sometimes develope stronger bonds with one another after they initially combat or compete with each other. Not so for women, according to my female friend, women hold grudges to the death. They will develope irrational animosity and never relent even to the detriment of all parties involved and whatever process is being performed by the team. I agree with her, not that this is always the case, but it is generally true.

    I have noticed that men I’ve worked with will allow various members of a group or team to enjoy an alpha status or leadership role based on merit. Often some form of competition establishes status. Men of lesser ability will subjugate themselves to another who has proven his superiority and actually support the leader even after previous confrontations. Maybe this is ingrained in our genes after 2 million years of hunting and defending together. I have had to terminate and relocate women in the past because they refused to cooperate together. Some were otherwise excellent employees. Another factor that may influence this is that men have millions of sperm with which to reproduce over a much longer period of time compared to women’s relatively short window of opportunity and far fewer eggs.

  76. “the Feminine Imperative convinces men that unfettered Hypergamy is a benefit to them.”
    the further elaboration of that statement would make an excellent blog posTing

  77. @sun

    I get it man. Fuck, I get it more than I ever wanted to get it. My only final clarification is that I’m not mad at single moms or hypergamous women either. I am mad at the same thing you are: third wave feminism. And while I know you can’t kill an idea, I gotta believe it can be driven back, if only for a time. Part of the ebbs and flows of humanity. And while I definitely recognize that my waging that war is the proverbial grain of sand in the ocean of shit, I’ll keep on keeping on because I’ve found the joys of pussy fleeting once I’ve seen the world for what it is. Before I fully swallowed the red pill but walked through the world armed with red pill tactics, each notch could carry me a month feeling validated and happy. But then as I began seeing the habits and red pill truths manifest before me, I became so disenchanted by it all, like unlocking cheat codes in video game, that each notch only gives momentary joy punctuated by even more disillusionment at the state of affairs in the modern West. I began actively loathing my new found ability (and went through a shit dry spell to coincide with it, since such disillusionment turned my jerkboy game into misanthropic asshole MGTOW game, i.e. worse than beta game).

    I’ve since found that my way of straddling the line between toxic disillusionment and ignorant bliss is continuing to spread the word to what friends will listen and interacting with the world in a way that at least won’t reward the zeitgeist I find so objectionable. And I’ll readily admit that it’s much easier for me to find unattached women in Los Angeles than for you in the South. Here women don’t really marriage up until the wall looms. This also makes it easier to not have to look over my shoulder when I’m walking around.

    I get that you’re maintaining your frame the only way you can in your situation. As am I, since the only thing that will make me happy is a higher purpose and that higher purpose is battling back in some small and meaningless way at the enemy that is third wave feminism. I know what reality is, and I’ll only be happy if it changes. So I’ll fight to change it even knowing that’s fruitless. But as far as I’m concerned, I’m far from a white knight.

    And I’m not exactly bullish on other parts of the world holding any great promise either. The ubiquity of Western culture and the spread of technology are compromising those areas and turning them onto the same things (and from an economic and freedom standpoint, I can’t think many places that hold enough allure to balance out any marginal gains from being less fem-centric). There are some areas where I see a nascent movement for turning the corner away from this crap, but there a SJWs in those places as well.

    But good on you, sun. We’re both confronting the abysmal realities we’re presented with in the only ways that work for us to preserve our respective sanities. And I’ll not take issue with that.

  78. Rollo,

    “Men are the true romantics, not women. They talk a good game, but it’s men who are the real slaves to romanticism. It’s men who conceive every romantic gesture. Mrs. Tomassi wears the wedding ring my father picked out for my mom all those years ago. The back story is kind of lost on her, she just loves the ring and life goes on. We want to believe in the fairy tale. We want to believe we’ll be the exception against all odds and every horror story. My father was probably the most uninspired man you’d ever meet when it came to women. He was very analytical, he was very ordered in his life, but he was also a hopeless savior for the women in his life. I wouldn’t call him a White Knight; he was much too rational for chivalry, but he did what he did because even he, the staunch atheist, believed marriage could make you happy. At some point my old man looked at that ring in the jewelry store and thought “yeah, that’s a good one, I could see that on my wife.”

    Are we fighting windmills here?

  79. Skenectady got to it before I could, but it’s otherwise been overlooked in these comments – poaching is about one thing and one thing only: scarcity.

    Aside: I was surprised that there was no mention of Holly Fisher in this piece. There is the hyperamy-triggered disloyalty of a woman, there is the betrayal of your best male friend, and then there is Holly Fisher and her path to GOP celebrity figure and the most astounding tale of hypocrisy I’ve seen in a while. I’ll just leave that there…

    Back to this topic – I’ll lay out my thoughts on ethics of various scenarios:

    -I wouldn’t go as far as ‘get off my lawn’ went. A man need not make a proactive attempt to verify that a woman is single before fucking her.
    -I would never, ever fuck the wife or gf of a male friend. Under any non-armageddon-scale circumstances. Ever.
    -If I immediately knew a random potential ONS-woman was married, and I were single, I probably wouldn’t fuck her. If she simply had a bf but was talking shit about him, and I was horny and single, I might well fuck her and feel a little guilty about that…

    …but here’s the thing – even in that last scenario, that’s operating out of scarcity. If I’m single and horny, why do I risk that drama and a potentially violent boyfriend trying to track me down, etc? Not to mention the ethics of it. Now I’m certainly not going to pry, and I’ll assume that no mention of a boyfriend or husband puts me ethically in the clear, and that’s good enough for me (and selfishly, that’s what I want in terms of a clear conscience). But why wouldn’t I just say ‘nah, no thanks’, dial a decent $300/hr callgirl instead, and go that route? Or text any other fwb to hook up, if I were that horny? The point is, scarcity can make men do fuckin’ dumb shit. Have abundance, and the entire context of a man’s decision-making process with these things gets elevated dramatically – and protects him from consequences of unneeded drama, dishonorable conduct, and threats of physical/bodily harm that might well be justified on some level.

  80. re: suicide

    I’m not a veteran, but I attempted suicide recently. You could say I’m a veteran of mental illness. That’s for sure. Heh. That whole spectrum isn’t only familiar to me, it’s more or less where I’ve lived for the past 13+ years. There’s a Red Pill with psychology/psychiatry too, for sure. And that one’s a doozy. I’m not even going to go there. Should be a whole nother blog devoted to that — hell, maybe I’ll start one.

    I’ve been recovering from my “episodes” a lot more rapidly lately. A lot of that is owing to the fact that I used to indulge BP fantasies about love/support from a woman. And feel very frustrated that nothing would ever happen or that I’d always seem to fuck things up with girls no matter how hard I tried. It was the only thing I wanted to help me with all the things I was going through. For years.

    That dream has not only died; it rolls over in its grave every time I remember that I used to entertain it in my mind.

    There’s a relief in not desiring women beyond having sex with them. And also a relief in not even wanting to have sex with them. Like where I am right now.

    I let someone know I tried to kill myself and the past week or so has been a deep process of introspection for me. I let them know I was okay now but needed time to think. They’ve been open to talking but I’m always reluctant to do that in-person, especially with people I know. But I appreciated his concern and I also reassured him that the dust has settled and it was just a major outburst that opened my eyes up.

    I’m very happy to say that having sex is just about the last thing on my mind. For where I am right now that has absolutely no appeal. It’s like women don’t even exist to me right now. I’m so focused inward and realizing my need to heal myself that I just don’t have the RAM for it.

    That is a very good thing. I can’t explain how good. In the past I would torment myself with BP fantasies, and I really thought that’s what I wanted and needed. Feminine love and support.

    TRP has opened my eyes. To most people this might sound really bad. But keep in mind that attempting suicide is like child’s play to me considering where I’ve come from. I’ve been struggling with shit like this since I was 12 years old and even younger. The stuff I’ve put myself through is unbelievable.

    But folks, this is the cold, hard truth. Now my issues have a lot to do with a whole lot of stuff that doesn’t have anything to do with women.

    But the key is, I DIDN’T REALIZE THAT before. I would just project all the pain/frustration/etc. onto fantasies about being loved/supported by whoever the girl of the year was.

    Donald Winnicott wrote about the “transitional phenomenon.” Like babies using blankets to simulate their mother as they grow beyond infancy. Comfort objects. When I read about that years ago, I was like, oh shit, that’s like these fantasies I’m having about these girls. Filling some void where my needs for love/support weren’t being met, or hadn’t been met.

    I only told a few people about the incident. Men. That I’ve known for a very long time and that I trust. They’ve supported me to their individual capacities. I don’t ask for much — actually nothing at all. Just letting them know was enough for me.

    But the BP fantasies were the main way I was tormenting myself.

    I am not there anymore. That’s ancient history. But looking at it in hindsight is very enlightening.

    If only I knew back then that it was a dead end.

    I feel a separation in my mind now, a distinction. A clear one and a good one. Women are out there. I’m in here. My main priority over the past year especially has shifted to taking care of myself, and focusing on myself.

    This includes, above all (above all for me, personally), dropping the blue pill fantasies. I actually dropped those long before I found this blog, but I ended up getting ONE-itis unexpectedly and fell back into the same trap. I thought I was immune to it.

    That’s ancient history now. But very important for guys still stuck in the Matrix, and especially guys with serious issues like I’ve had…..to keep in mind. To be aware of.

    Women are a dead end. But it’s perfectly okay that they’re a dead end. It’s actually a good thing that they’re not the solution to your problems, because now you’re liberated from all the torment that comes with believing that they are.

    The validation you want from women is completely irrelevant. It means nothing. It means less than nothing. It’s a wisp of smoke vanishing in the air.

    I’m completely open to learning Game and approaching and actually developing a sex life. It’s something I want to do.

    But for right now it’s on the backburner. I have some major things I have to work through. A lot of old memories have surfaced and blown up and it’s left quite a wasteland in my mind that I have to start working on. Building everything back from the ground up. And building it better.

    I wouldn’t wish what I’ve been through on anyone. And I definitely wouldn’t advise pushing yourself there thinking you’ll get some benefit out of it — but to be honest I feel like I have.

    It is what it is. But for me trying and failing to take my own life — the aftermath has been supremely enlightening. Talk about a wakeup call.

    Anyway, I hope at least some of what I’ve said can resonate with guys reading this. I don’t want to be thought of as an extreme example. I personally don’t think it’s extreme. A lot of my experiences and struggles line right up with Blue Pill conditioning and understanding that has been pivotal to the internal changes I’ve been making.

    The whole experience of taking TRP is significant on a meta level:

    It’s guys taking responsibility for themselves. Being independent. Putting themselves first. They’re reading and learning because they want to improve their lives. Or at least that’s what the smart ones do.

    And that’s a very healthy thing to do. Especially men in this culture need to do things like this more often — take time to really prioritize themselves and adopt a “me first” attitude.

    Funny thing when you put yourself first: you have more to give to other people than you ever had before. Because you’re wasting less energy and conserving and building up more, and directing it and expressing it much more efficiently.

    The light at the end of the tunnel is not, contrary to popular belief, an oncoming train.

    It’s legit. I’m seeing that now. There are no more shoes that are going to drop. They’ve already dropped when you were living in Blue Pill Girl-World.

    I heard once, I don’t remember where:

    “It’s like a clown suit. You don’t realize how much it stinks until you take it off.”

    My life kind of flashed before my eyes, and looking back at where I used to be — I am oh so happy to be where I am now. I know I still have issues. But they’re like nothing compared to what the past 13 years plus were like. Light years of improvement. I wouldn’t go back to where I was mentally and emotionally for all the riches and pussy in the universe.

    Guys: be good to yourselves. That’s the main message. The anger and denial are natural stages. Rollo’s laid that all out. On the other side the realization occurs that it literally is a complete waste of energy to even be upset with women for the way they behave.

    The goal is to become completely secure in yourself after re-inventing yourself and learning how to respect and prioritize yourself — and a big part of that is learning how you were conditioned to disrespect yourself and prioritize other people — ESPECIALLY women. And realizing that you didn’t even KNOW you were prioritizing them. That’s how deep the conditioning runs.

    Anyway, I’m really seeing now that it truly is better on the other side. I’ve got a lot of thinking to do. Been on a major Zevon kick lately, too, which is nice. Been listening to him for over 7 years and after getting back into him after going a long time without listening to anything by him….is kind of like a re-integration, if you could call it that. Heh.

    Keep it real guys. And I do mean real. The little extra water you have to sip to get the RP down is worth it.

  81. @Rhett

    This is all very interesting. But Islam’s historical achievements notwithstanding, is there any Muslim society today that can lay claim to giving such a wide berth to non-Muslims? It would seem the Ottoman empire and later Turkey functioned as such for some time, but under Erdogan and the moderate islamist party he leads, it seems that the pendulum is swinging back in the other direction. And weren’t the Christians and Jews of the Iberian peninsula still subject to the jizya and the laws governing the dhimmi and their participation in government? What was the status of intoxicants like alcohol in the Islamic world at its height? Islam may, philosophically speaking, hold some promise for mitigating the disaster of feminism in the West, but it certainly has within its text a political ambition that Christian texts never claimed jurisdiction over (the papacy and the Catholic church were not textual interpretations of the bible, but rather an efforts outside of the text to consolidate political power using faith as cover). I would be fascinated to read any literature you can refer me to any literature that either presents the case for Islam’s merit in the historical world, details Muhammad’s conquests as being relatively benign, or especially any that presents a worldview of Islam compatible with modernism and wide social pluralism.

    The savagery of Western warriors may indeed be why it was able to conquer back the lands conquered by Mohammad. And that may also be why the ISIS and Al-Quedas of the day are using such barbaric tactics to advance their causes. As bin Laden cleverly noted: when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse. Savagery shows a strength of will.

    And even if one were to accept the premise that Islam, in a moderated and enlightened version akin to the one that may have existed at its height of flourishing, there are some aspects that seem problematic with its current status in the West. Islam has largely (and astoundingly) allied itself with the Left and the SJW movement. What are the Western Muslim organizations that are trying to break bread with the broad libertarian right? And how could Islam catch on in the West without it being an outgrowth of the more backasswards practitioners of Islam? The Muslim converts in Western Europe have largely embraced the more virulent strains of Wahhabism and Salafism (and now are beginning to spark a push back in some parts, whether through lone wolves like Anders Breveik or organizations like PEGIDA).

    Finally, what can someone who hope does Islam as a cultural organizing principle have for those of us who simply cannot accept belief in a god as an article of faith generally? There are millions of Christians and Jews in the West who self-identify as such due to cultural background but when really quizzed about the texts and beliefs in those faiths, readily admit that not only do they not believe is all, but they don’t even believe in the central premise of a personified Abrahamic faith God. Is there an Islamic equivalent of the cafeteria catholic or cultural jew?

  82. Oh and on the notion of ‘Well, if I fuck my buddy’s fiance/girlfriend, I’m kinda actually doing him a favor by proving she’s disloyal so that he can be spared of wasting more time with her and future heartache blah blah…’

    C’mon. Bullshit.

    The minute you convincingly ascertain that she is intending to try to fuck you, you don’t need to go one step farther. You keep your cock in your pocket, and you tell your buddy. That’s called loyalty. Doing anything beyond that is stabbing him in the back, and however you justify it is just bullshit, period.

  83. Not often that I disagree with Jeremy, but:

    “As has been said, you can’t escape the game. I hesitate to fault any man for restraining his practice of game under any circumstances, to do so is to ask males to accept that their own sexual strategy must take a back seat to somewhat outdated notions of honor. If males could simply go out, exercise their power of choice, and tell any individual women “come home with me, we’ll fuck,” and have it work regardless of which women they told it to, they would do so. That would be power of choice over sex. But I think we both agree that men do not have that power. That power is reserved for women, which is why game is necessary in the first place.”

    Call-girls. Only pre-requisite: $$$. Then you have the greatest ‘power of choice’ of all. Whoever you want, whenever you want. It’s Hof’s sole premise (and his genius).

  84. @Steve H:

    No, it’s not necessarily bullshit.
    What if she insists that she had no intention of going all the way and that she was only testing the friend’s loyalty since he made advances on her first, and that it was important to you to know about your friend’s disloyalty and to her because she is serious about you and doesn’t want someone disloyal, dangerous and destructive around you and this was the only way to make sure that you would believe her because he’s your friend and etc. etc. etc.

    And if you think that arguments like that have never been made and never swayed anyone, then you are the naive one.

  85. @BC, I’m sure her rationalization hamster would go into such overdrive to try and absolve her of her guilt. And maybe a male rationalization hamster would believe as much. But that would be the height of naivete on his part. Any man who would believe as much would deserve what he gets.

  86. Sure, those horseshit arguments been made by duplicitous women countless times and believed by countless naive fools. But that’s entirely irrelevant when considering the ethics of the matter. Any man who takes that possibility as license to fuck that particular woman is scum, and I’d disown him immediately if he had any friendship/social connection to me.

  87. And if I were the one to tell my buddy that his girl tried to fuck me, and his girl turned it around as you describe, then the matter is out of my hands at that point, isn’t it. It’s his call. He can believe her, take ‘her side’ and consider me dead to him/them, whatever he decides. But I’d have done my part.

  88. But, @rollo, then how have my parents been together for 35 years? My mom was hot when she was younger and my dad isn’t all that. He’s done some cool shit like pilots license and building his first home etc.

    But there can’t be thattttt much negativity around LTRs today?

    ….or is there? Is it b/c society has changed so much?

  89. Will – in the 1970s, people had a tiny fraction of the amount of choices they have for seeking sexual relationships in 2015. For women particularly, having too many choices is dramatically deleterious to their capability to be faithful. Too much choice for women renders hypergamy exponential.

  90. Re: cognitive dissonance

    Yeah, this thread and post are full of it.

    It takes some hardass hypocrisy and nuclear-grade rationalizations to rag on women’s lack of morals and wax about “ethics” while engaging in and promoting immoral behavior yourself. Since supposedly TRP is “amoral.”


    Nothing we do is “amoral” – our actions are either moral or not. In case it’s not clear, no, what’s moral is not everything that makes your dick happy.

    What’s more, unless you’re a sociopath, you know it. If you abandon a code of decency and honor, you are nothing. A maggot. And don’t start with accusations of white-knighting and other shit to excuse your maggotry. They are too transparent and idiotic.

    If being a maggot is fine with you, cool. But you have no right to bitch about others behaving in immoral ways when you yourself eschew morality. You have no credibility in the matter.

    Since water seeks its own level, you should not be surprised to learn that maggots attract other maggots only. You get back from life what you put into it = what you deserve. It is a basic truth that should be somewhere on the top of TRP rules.

  91. This is where I was….
    Lost in my hometown.
    I recently broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years. Well, it’s been almost 5 months since we broke up and I’m still having problems adjusting. My girlfriend was socially awkward when I met her. She dressed like she was at work (PE teacher) all the time, wore very little make-up. On her behalf she was a very busy person, I’m not saying being a teacher is easy. Classic PE teacher looks, but she had something in her that said she was the most beautiful person in the world. I can’t describe it. Maybe I saw what I wanted to see or maybe I loved the fact that she just wanted to be around me all the time. I used to tell her that I couldn’t stand for women to hang all over me, but when she did it I was ok with it. We went out with my friends all the time and everyone loved her. She went out of her way to meet everyone and make them feel special for just being a friend of mine. Little did I know after the break-up she would want to keep as many friends as she had made. Now she is going out of her way to keep all the friends that I had introduced her to. Two hundred Facebook friends! Ugh!
    I had learned in the relationship that she wasn’t just socially awkward; she was jaded because of childhood friends as well as her own family growing up. Her dad was never around, her mom had a disability that made her grow up at an early age and she learned that life and other people can be cruel. I am learning now that I didn’t treat her as special as she treated me. I gave her that impression that I didn’t want to be around her and do the things that were important to her. I fell in love with the person that she wanted to become and not the person she had been in the past. I loved her and I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. She was intrigued by that fact that my family was so close, trusting, giving and she loved being a part of it. I get so frustrated when people are jaded or defensive right off the bat. I grew up with good family values. My parents have been together for 36 years. I’ve always been a trusting person; I see the good in people when I meet them, I’m extremely friendly and maybe a bit naive. Heck, I leave my keys in my truck and the door unlocked most of the time. It’s strange to me when people lock their car when it’s in the driveway of their own house. I have this love to give and no one to give it to.
    Most of those two hundred friends believe she is a good person and none of the want to lose either of us as friends. They want to be mutual friends. They don’t want to choose and I really can’t make them choose, but when some of them call her to go to out drinking and daily activities before they call me, it rubs me the wrong way. Mostly the single guys that think they have a chance to get laid or the single women that want to better their own Facebook pages with “another” good looking woman. These I now know are truly not my friends. It bugs me that some of them, even the ones I have known for 20 years, are on the fence about who they like more. What does that say about me? Am I not fun and interesting anymore? I am struggling to find true friendship in a crowd of my own people, my own town where I was born and raised. I am starting to surround myself with strangers, friends I had in high school, looking for new friends and new relationships. I have taken myself off Facebook and I refuse to compete for friendships that I believed to be genuine.
    I am struggling with the loss of a lover, the loss of two teenage girls that have her own lives now and no one really to talk to. I feel “Lost in my hometown”.

    Now I plan on Regaining my Social Superiority”

  92. @BC, re: “What if she insists that she had no intention of going all the way”

    If? Every single time she will say it, and she will mean it when she says it.

  93. “Since water seeks its own level, you should not be surprised to learn that maggots attract other maggots only. You get back from life what you put into it = what you deserve. It is a basic truth that should be somewhere on the top of TRP rules.”

    No offence- but that is a very common form of logically flawed thinking, it constitutes one of the primary forms of cultural propaganda keeping AFCs ‘in line’ for BB:
    The concept of *poetic justice* – one of the most dangerous forms of mind control ever developed. –> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_justice

    You (and I) have been influenced by this structure (that is embedded in almost all cultural narratives, children’s stories, movies etc.pp.) all our lives – but it does NOT (in any way, shape or form) constitue a rational description of reality.

    In former times, this ‘white lie’ was a good thing, keeping communities together, enforcing/imprinting positive role models on children etc.

    But today – it’s pure posion.
    Because the structure of poetic justice can be filled with any *content* – cf. all the tall tales of heroic single moms, divorcees and sluts being rewarded with “Mr. Big”, nice guys winning the beauty in the end after much hardship and tons of supplication etc. pp.

  94. @tribeofuno, re: “What does that say about me?” + “the loss of two teenage girls”

    I suspect there’s a more universal pattern to this relationship than youve been letting on.

    Girl is nice looking and has a lot of boyfriends. Some of them get her pregnant, some of which she keeps. Her pattern is to bond quickly, but it tails off quickly after a brief honeymoon period. She hits the Wall and tries to settle down, and finds a nicer guy than usual for her, specifically a family guy, to help raise her children.

    She gives him a real shot, the whole nine yards, really tries to give hm the boyfriend experience. But she kept her options open because her heart really wasn’t in it. You felt desperately in love, and treated her too nice, I’m sorry to say.

  95. @447 re: poetic justice.

    I agree. Also called karma, in which the idea that you can expect such justice in this life is ridiculed, since it takes multiple lives apparently.

    Probably the single biggest red pill truth is that being treated well brings out the worst in many people, especially women.

  96. An uncle who was a veteran of the German Army on the Eastern Front, related to me one of the bitter truths he and a lot of other German men learned about their women at the end of the Second World War.

    He said that while it took the Allies 6 years to defeat the German Army, the women on the other hand were conquered in one night. All it took was a bit of whiskey, some cigarettes and their legs were in the air.

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