Loyalty & Hypergamy

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I actually had another post warming up for this week, but I received the following correspondence from a reader whom I’ve promised to keep anonymous. I don’t do ‘guest posts’ on Rational Male, however I do repost some comments and email I receive on occasion, and in light of the recent discussions on the male concept of love and shit tests I thought I’d let this stand on its own today:

Rollo,

I know it’s been a long time since you posted your piece, “Soldiers”, but it struck a nerve with me. I’m not sure what kind of new insight (if any) you can get from my experiences, but I left the Air Force 6 years ago and have found the transition to civilian life much more difficult than I had expected. After reading your post and reflecting, I also realized that the values the military instilled into me set me up for a lot of difficulty with women down the road. I only wish I had something like your blog as a resource when I was 21.

I went to one of this country’s military academies at the age of 17. I am 31 now and am still friends with some of the guys I went through basic training with. The basic training experience was 6 weeks long, and physically and mentally very tough. At the academies this environment gets drawn out (in modified form) through the entire first year, where we are plebes and function as sort of second-class citizens beneath all upper classmen. There is a lot of adversity, a lot of animosity directed at you in such a system, but you come to realize later on it’s a kind of “tough love”. These experiences forced us all to bond with each other, and help each other out through some very rough times.

I spent too many years of my life hoping that I could find a relationship with a woman that would be on par with the relationship I had with my male military friends in terms of honesty, loyalty, trust, forthrightness. I ended and/or sabatoged a number of relationships with women because I was looking for this kind of “love” I had for my brothers and could never find it. I had always assumed that I would find a form of “love” that rivaled all other relationships I’d had previously. Loyalty was (and is) a major virtue for me, and I never felt like I was finding that with the women I dated. In the military I developed a pretty keen eye for bullshit, and every relationship I had with women, even the best ones, I found my bullshit alarms going off at some point. Now I realize what was tripping my bullshit alarm—hypergamy. Hypergamy is directly opposed to the concept of loyalty. I could tell when women were being shifty.

Part of the reason I could tell is because I had actually swallowed a version of the red pill as a cadet, though I’d never actually heard the term before. A few of my friends are what they call “naturals”. They helped to undo a lot of the extreme blue pill notions that I had been raised with.

Years of movies and TV and guidance from authority figures had trained me to look for “that special girl”. One of my friends in particular introduced the idea of being “kind of an ass” to girls, and only showing the nice side later (because I really was a nice kid). Never lead with your nice side, he advised me.

We also fucked a lot of girls with boyfriends. I saw some of the most disloyal and underhanded behavior out of women during that time. I remember when my friend was urging me to make a move on a girl we’d been talking to in a bar for some time. I said, “oh she has a boyfriend”. He asked, “well did she bring him up in conversation? Unless she brings it up it’s fair game. And you don’t address it either. Don’t say anything about the boyfriend, just keep the conversation elsewhere for the entire night.” It worked. Tactics like these worked over and over again, and while I enjoyed the hell out of this new found power, I was becoming more uncomfortable about the nature of women. It’s only due to my sense of morality and loyalty to other men in arms that I didn’t fuck the wife of an army guy who was deployed. I felt too disgusted with myself to go through with it… she, however, didn’t seem the least bit troubled by her marriage.

Fast forward to my adult life, I decided that I should be looking for a good woman to settle down with. See, I had never swallowed the Red Pill completely—I resisted the harsher implications of it. I told myself, NAWALT, and that I just needed to look for a good girl. The One. I understood so much that so many other guys don’t get, but I was still holding out hope for The One. I figured I would find this One at some point in grad school. After all, this is where all the smart, motivated, good girls are, right?

In two relationships the girls wanted to be exclusive with me. I said yes quickly, because exclusivity was what I wanted too. It wasn’t too long after that that my bullshit alarms got set off. One girl, leading into Christmas break, said she was going to a techno show in a city about an hour away from our school. I was planning on studying for a final, so I didn’t bother trying to go. As the date neared I realized I felt comfortable about the final and I wanted to go out that night. I asked to go with her—she said no. And this is where I could see the hamster frantically spinning its wheel.

All her reasons were obvious bullshit. I know when a girl is seeing another guy, because I’ve been the other guy. I know what the stories are like. I ended it. I was heartbroken. I wondered constantly whether I had made the right call. I missed her desperately, and I constantly questioned whether my radar had been off. My male friends (now thoroughly blue-pill, as I was attending a liberal civilian grad school) told me I was overreacting and being paranoid and jealous and not respecting her space, blah blah blah… A whole year later a girl I was friends with let slip that my ex actually was meeting another guy in the city, and fucked him the day after I dumped her.

No surprise—but I was quite upset that a few other girls I was “friends” with had known and never told me. They could have saved me a lot of grief. But then again, they were women—I don’t quite get it, but it’s like all the girls were sticking up for each other and covering for each other, even though they weren’t really close friends. It’s almost as if they felt they needed to cover up the tactics that women use, and keep the men from knowing about them—as though there was a driving need they had to keep men in the dark as to the true nature of women.

In fact, I have never been steered in the right direction in relationships by any woman. And this will bring me around to my next point—the feminine dominated civilian environment—especially academia.

The second grad school relationship followed a path that was remarkably similar to my first—in fact, looking back, I have had three major relationships, with girls who wanted to be exclusive, and they have ended because the girls were becoming involved with other men.

University life was especially difficult to adjust to. There was a lot less voicing of opinions and a lot more concern over offending others—that was one of the first things I noticed. I also noticed that many of the men seemed timid compared with my male military friends. See, this grad school was almost an extension of high school.

Approval by the females was very important, you could not anger them. The men were incredibly concerned with their popularity, and with getting to know the right people. I figured out early on that pissing off one of the cuter girls could lead to social death. And even apart from the girls, the men didn’t seem to act like men I had known.

There was a hierarchy in the school, and these young men followed the rules of this hierarchy. They would not challenge any male who was deemed to be “socially superior”. This blew my mind, because my military friends would never have accepted such a thing. We had a group, a crew, and we could always stand our ground, and if push ever came to shove then we might have to fight someone—if it meant protecting our dignity. I also figured out that physically standing my ground wasn’t socially acceptable in this environment.

I realize I may sound like some sort of thuggish asshole with a persecution complex, but I was responding to some blatant disrespect that shocked me. In the military, the men I knew wouldn’t openly disrespect or ridicule a man—unless they were looking for a fight. Actually, in the military I recall a lot more general respect between the men than I found in grad school. The grad school men felt like women to me—gossipy, petty. Overall, the male virtues that I had learned in the military became unimportant in the culture I found myself in.

Other values took priority, and I think this may be the Feminine Imperative you spoke of. Conflict was always to be avoided. Drastic effort must be taken to avoid offending others. Most of the men were willing to undercut each other for just a chance to be with one of the prettier girls. And the pretty girls—they walked on water, constantly had a harem of beta males tending to them. Actually, I watched several of these girls cheat on one boyfriend only to begin dating his friend. The social power of the prettier women cannot be overstated. I dated and dumped two pretty girls in a row (for the reasons I stated above) and quickly found myself on the outside of most social events.

I saw a lot of truth in your thoughts about military men. Some military men are some of the most Alpha dudes I’ve ever met. My military friends changed me from a dyed-in-the-wool beta to an Alpha that could fuck other dudes girlfriends with far too much ease, and stand up for himself (a modified pseudo-alpha, obviously I wouldn’t need to write this letter if I was a true natural alpha). But a lot of military men, Alpha though they are, have not actually swallowed the red pill completely. Somehow, I’d like to be able to get that message across, because there’s still a lot of NAWALT and One-itis in the military culture, even though it is a predominantly alpha culture. I am just grateful that I came across your blog.

After two failed relationships I was feeling like shit. I had tried looking for The One, and tried to have an Open and Honest relationship with lots of Communication and it failed dramatically. Now that I’ve found your blog I’ve come to terms with a lot of what had been plaguing me about women. I’m back to spinning plates, and I really do think it’s the best option for any male in today’s society. I’m still a little bitter about these red pill truths, but I’m no longer trying to fight against them.

I have a good correspondence with men in the military and it’s one of the more humbling aspects of writing what I do. I’ve had men on deployment send me pictures of their worn copy of The Rational Male on the barracks bed and I get chills. I’m glad I can help these guys transition from the idealism they have in the military to the often tragic Red Pill realities they encounter when they’re discharged.

This reader makes an interesting point I hadn’t considered in the Soldiers posts; there is a modicum of loyalty and respect men develop amongst themselves (even between different branches of the military) while enlisted that they believe will be relatable and respected by the women they encounter after their time in the military. They believe that the idealistic male concept of love (and in this case love for their military brothers) is the same concept women will share when they enter civilian life.

Young men entering into military life out of high school have (in most cases) 4 years to learn an idealism based on the Old Set of Books, is it any wonder they become suicidal after they are forced to come to terms with the disillusionment of that idealism in the face of the feminine-primary reality they enter when they’re discharged?

22 Veterans per day take their own lives.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]

Sun Wukong
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But then again, they were women—I don’t quite get it, but it’s like all the girls were sticking up for each other and covering for each other, even though they weren’t really close friends. It’s almost as if they felt they needed to cover up the tactics that women use, and keep the men from knowing about them—as though there was a driving need they had to keep men in the dark as to the true nature of women. There’s two dynamics going on here. One is that even though the Sandberg of the world are all about open hypergamy… Read more »

Nick
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There are parallels between military service and fraternity life, though obviously the military is a more intense, long-term and potentially life threatening commitment (not counting hazing deaths in college of course). I was solidly blue pill in my fraternity and only got laid once when I was drunk and acted dominant for once. I was frustrated by the contradictions between the values of the organization, including the expectation to be “gentlemen” and the promiscuous and reckless sex that a portion of the guys were having. It makes sense now, but it was very confusing at the time when being an… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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^^^^
“They k of the politics of the situation.”

They grasp the politics of the situation. Stupid auto correct.

Bango Tango
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Damn do any of you soldiers ever think how ironic it is that you are over there fighting the “enemy” who knows how to put the female in their place behind a burqa to limit her hypergamy then come back and find your wife fucking some other dude? Makes you think who is the real enemy huh?

horrenbrand
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Interesting, however still I would prefer to be part of that military brotherhood that at least teaches how to be a strong man at least when it comes to other things- I presume it’s easier to become alpha from that background than to not even try it and land in the place such as the one I described in ‘Old Pals’ post – living with close proximity to your parents, under the heavy iron shoe of some girl and being 100% beta thinking that this is how life should be.

rawr
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rawr
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Wonder if at some point women will decide to not cover for other women with the purpose of upping their rank among men, would work imo. Or do they already do that when their hypergamy is triggered for a new man… Its good to hear soldiers have a sense of loyalty to each other I’ve never had a high opinion of the military. Also makes me kinda sad to hear how there’s good people in there who get put through the cluster fuck of society completely unprepared, at least we were slowly weaned into it without years of hiatus from… Read more »

honeycomb
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“The first rule of fight club is .. you don’t talk about fight club!” Funny how my military experience was just like this almost 30 years ago now. Sigh Anyway, as a member of the US Navy I can say that the Army and Marines are the true band of brothers. Even as a member of a small tight-nit unit (ie submarines) we never had the same level of brotherhood the Army guys did. Hence why I think the suicide rates for the Army are higher than any other branch of service. But, regardless, Rollo your observations on suicide are… Read more »

agent p
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I tried to stop reading RM for a little while. I find I go on RP binges and then I just end up bitter and jaded. Fuck though I keep getting sucked back in. I feel for the guys in the military, seems so many get screwed over by these chicks, universally, its horrid. School / university etc seems more crazy then ever now. I suppose when I was doing my Architecture degree I should have figured out some Red Pill truths more readily. I was Alpha, I had tons of social proof, I was on my mission to the… Read more »

honeycomb
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My reference to fight club is regarding women not telling on each others hypergamy. Sorry for the confusion.

Jeremy
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“Where have all the good men gone?”

22 military veterans take their life each day.

Treat men with respect, ladies, or they will remove themselves from life, dooming large numbers of you to spinsterhood in your old age.

Sun Wukong
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@rawr

The only way for women to stop participating I that system is if being straight with men would optimize her hypergamy better than earning points with the ladies will. Basically getting caught once would has to result in complete and total social ostracism, and playing straight with men would have to guarantee every HB5 a committed HG10 for her participation. Not gonna happen.

sudden
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It pains me to read this. I can’t imagine anything crueler in this world than putting one’s life on the line to protect a society only to realize that the society you’re protecting is not merely unworthy of protection, but completely antithetical to those very virtues you thought you were protecting. @BangoTango Your point is duly noted. I’ve thought about this frequently since discovering the red pill and would like to see a detailed discussion from Rollo or someone of equal manosphere merit addressing Islamism and its merits relative to the contemporary Western feminine-primary decadence. The contemporary Western world lacks… Read more »

greginaurora
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The Red Pill changed my entire life, not just my dating habits. Everything, from deploying positive charisma in business meetings, to deploying disinterested charm with every women I interact with. In a nutshell: Women experience life as it happens around them Men live their lives interacting with what’s around them. A man’s life is his. A woman’s life is whatever her girlfriends and maybe her man are making/giving/allowing. This is all my view of course, but it changed my life. I was taught not to interfere and mind my own business; when I took the red pill, I started to… Read more »

Fred Flange's smashits
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I have sported a full beard for years, it’s a good look. Slowly going fifty shades of gray (woof woof). That said, I have noticed this face-fungus look too on the hipster-beardboys and it is a common look on “men” in commercials for cars, phones, and such things men are allowed to covet or buy. The thought I keep having is face fungus is a way of saying you are willing to be wee bit manly, but not too manly, that’s too scary or “oppressive”. Like a full commitment to facial hair of some sort is liable to be shamed… Read more »

10x10
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Islam is not the solution. It is a brutal, evil religion. Its ultimate aim is the conquest and subjugation of the entire non-Muslim world. Islam turns life for non-Muslims into a living hell. There is a tendency for some alt-right-wingers to sympathize with Islam if not openly side with it. Many Trads do this for example. This is wrong for many reasons. European Christianity restrained female hypergamy and still managed to build a thriving, beautiful civilization that did not treat women as chattel. What ruined it was Liberalism. Sadly the seeds for destruction were sown with the Classical Liberals and… Read more »

Get Off My Lawn
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I’m going to point out the elephant in the room here–the soldier and his alpha friends fucked other men’s girlfriends.

If you have respect for other men and moral superiority, you won’t mess around unless you know beyond a reasonable doubt the girl’s not spoken for.

greginaurora
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The only people who respect the “don’t fuck those already spoken for” rule are those men still working with the older set of rules. Women don’t live by those rules, and fuck anyone they please at anytime they desire. There exists a great deal of distress among men caused by this one very important point. Why, after all, should they respect the old rules when their women are not. To point out the elephant in your own argument-those girlfriends are all fucking other men. Don’t play the blue-pill game and blame the men. They’re just the one’s fucking them that… Read more »

jf12
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The key concept: “In fact, I have never been steered in the right direction in relationships by any woman.”

In general women’s advice will tend to women’s benefit, no surprise. To that extent, if your benefit is in opposition to the woman’s benefit then just do the opposite of what they say.

jf12
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re: military suicides

Remember how for years the media was spinning the issue as though these guys were feeling guilty for being child-killers? All along, almost all of them were Dear John dumped.

James
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10×10, you are so close. Now take the logical step and name the true enemy of the West. He lives among us, shapes the minds of young and old alike, you call him NeoConservative or the Frankfurt School but I call him the Jew. Every perversion introduced to our culture;feminism, Marxism,Modern Art, immigration, etc. is fathered by the Jew. Part of Red Pill Truth is naming the true enemy.

jf12
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BTW I know it is still very common for a guy to marry his girl right before he deploys, in order to try to keep her locked down while he is gone. Questions I have
1) Does it work? Is a wife who marries right before he deploys tend to be more faithful than a girlfriend who he promises to marry after he returns?
2) Under which circumstances, if any, has anyone ever demonstrated that absence makes the heart grow fonder?

Sun Wukong
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@Get Off My Lawn If you have respect for other men and moral superiority, you won’t mess around unless you know beyond a reasonable doubt the girl’s not spoken for. Bro knighting? Seriously? Dude get fucking real. I’ve said this before on here but I guess it bears repeating: 70% of the female population is at least overweight. That’s an automatic HB4 or less regardless of natural beauty potential. Another 10%-15% or so of the non-fatties are single moms. Automatic HB4 or less. We’re now looking at the remainder, roughly 15%, who are not automatically out. Assuming a normal distribution… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Get Off My Lawn I’m going to point out the elephant in the room here–the soldier and his alpha friends fucked other men’s girlfriends. The decision on who to have sex with lies with the woman, and the woman alone. In fact, to an unquestionably large degree, it is being made *only* their decision in the western world. Men are the ones who biologically want it 24/7, yet it is men who essentially have no say in whether intercourse takes place. You can say, “Those guys screwed wives…” but those men made no commitment to anyone to never screw another… Read more »

jf12
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re: poaching

Prescinding the question of morality of any extra-marital relations, if you intend to engage in sex outside of the person you marry then inevitably you will poach. I guess the ethical question, again assuming fornication, is what level of poaching is acceptable? Obviously it is situational, but does that level really change when the husband/boyfriend is not physically present?

jf12
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re: “the idealistic male concept of love”

In this case identical to “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

Johnycomelately
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All the male angst comes from men still being stuck in the Monogamy Paradigm (blue pill) while women are operating in the Serial Polygyny Paradigm (red pill). Since we are in a transition phase women are capable of optimising their sexual strategy by pursuing a dualistic scheme, to the extent that it has even been legally crystallised in marriage laws. Serial Polygyny for me but Monogamy for thee. The female’s resource is her sexual exclusivity while the male’s resource is his provisioning exclusivity, marriage no longer requires female sexual exclusivity but demands (under the threat of imprisonment ) male provisioning… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@jf12 I guess the ethical question, again assuming fornication, is what level of poaching is acceptable? A fair question. I will not poach from friends/family, as I value my friends more than my lays. I generally avoid poaching married chicks, but not as a moral concern. It’s just too much of a pain in the ass if the husband finds out. However, if I can conceal enough information from her to keep him from finding me, I’d probably do it still. If she’s gonna cheat, she’s gonna cheat. I might as well be the one getting laid in the process… Read more »

jf12
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Link from Rollo’s feed.
http://www.epjournal.net/articles/mate-choice-copying-in-single-and-coupled-women-the-influence-of-mate-acceptance-and-mate-rejection-decisions-of-other-women/
“The significant effects for single women were dependent on a decrease in attractiveness ratings when they perceived the models’ mate rejection. However, the significant findings for coupled women relied on an increase in attractiveness ratings when they observed the models’ mate acceptance.”

I firmly believe the previous confusion in the literature over mate-choice copying in human females has been due to the neglect of the overarching importance of rejection. The short answer is that the process by which preselection works is
1) Anti-pre-rejection for singles
2) Dread for couples

cervantesscthree
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When I read articles like this, despite all my knowledge of the stuff that’s discussed on this blog, and my real life experiences, I wonder: is it even possible to hold down a monogamous relationship? It seems that even if one was to keep their game sharper in marriage than it was when they first met their spouse, women would still end up drifting or “turning on them”. Of course Rollo has made it work but posts such as this one are scary. And the plight soldier face is upsetting. That suicide rate is hard to fathom. It just all… Read more »

jf12
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@Sun Wukong, re: “I will not poach from friends/family, as I value my friends more than my lays.”

Ok, but women tend to cheat within their social circle. It’s kind of rare that a woman intends to be picked up by a random stranger. But I concur that random stranger PUA, being a preferred male strategy, is a lot more ethical than social circle cheating.

Sun Wukong
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@jf12

Just because someone’s in your social circle doesn’t mean they’re your friend.

Jeremy
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@jf12 I guess the ethical question, again assuming fornication, is what level of poaching is acceptable? I would need defined “levels” of poaching to even begin to think about it. But on that topic, I believe my thoughts line up with Sun’s. I still think the voluntary nature of marital commitment places all blame on the one who violates that commitment. Hook up culture is presumed at this point, so if you’re a married woman and you’re hooking up, you’re in the wrong, and not the single men engaged in “poaching”. So yes, when it comes down to it, if… Read more »

Jeremy
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Here’s a question on poaching. Presume you’re a decent PUA, and your friend is one as well. You find a girl who you believe you can be faithful to, and who can be faithful to you. If your buddy PUA sees that she can be unfaithful, and has sex with your potential fiance, and then tells you about it… did he not just do you a favor? Did he not just save you the trouble of committing to someone who clearly couldn’t remain exclusive on you? I expect to be shouted down into dust on this one. The only reason… Read more »

Senior Beta
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Great post Rollo. And brings back lots of memories. Most of them bad. Like honeycomb I was Navy. But over 40 years ago. Viet Nam. On a carrier. I was the ship’s lawyer. Actually, the best job I ever had. But the fucking Dear John letters were a real burden. Almost every damn day. Telling the kid he would not be divorced raped (thanks to Congress and the Soldier’s and Sailors Civil Relief Act) was small comfort. No suicides but lots of acting out. This shit has been going on for centuries. Brother in law an AFA graduate and pilot.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy I don’t think it’s the FI. I think it’s about establishing a close group you can actually trust, hence my not being willing to poach from that group. If she came on to him, he turned her down, but then he came to tell me I’d appreciate it and she’d be out. If he went through with it, they’re both excised from my life; he just did me the favor of outting two people I couldn’t trust with one move. For the record, I’ve had this happen three times to me. Handled it the same way every time. Both… Read more »

Ra Sputin
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Fidelity is mostly if not completely the responsibility of the married/committed person, otherwise why did they bother giving that commitment in the first place. On the other hand the single non committed person is free to do as they please.

Slightly off tangent, but i find it odd that when my friends have caught their gf’s cheating they get angry/violent/indignant at the man their gf has been seeing on the side, while the girl is let off lightly. Ive started see this playing out in hollywood/MSM on occasion.

Jeremy
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But Sun, your male friend didn’t violate you or any explicit agreement with you (I’m presuming there). I’m not knocking your decision to next anyone, that’s your decision (and in truth, I’ve done the same thing you described). Realistically your male friend did nothing to violate you as a person. If he tried to hide it from you, that’s one thing, but if he just outright says, “Yeah, your girl, she fucked me,” I think he’s actually doing you a favor. Like Rollo says, it’s the old set of books that has that gentleman’s agreement in it, and modern hook-up… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo

I’d disagree with that, but then again I have 3 vivid examples in my own life of close friends not living up to it. I suppose it’s up to the individual to live by it or not. I do it for close friends, and expect it of them. If they’re unable to live up to it, I end the friendship.

Trust pretty much defines male friendship for me. If I can’t trust a guy, I ain’t friends with him.

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy Both people have outed themselves as untrustworthy. I appreciate that he has no specific agreement, but I also know that socially it’s a bad idea to keep friends around that will actively poach your women. I’ve dealt with the consequences of it. If you’re friends with a guy who has better game than you, better natural looks, and just hits on and fucks every chick you get, you’re actively working against your own self-interests by keeping him around. Women are hypergamous. If a dude can routinely activate the hypergamy in the women you meet and does so without considering… Read more »

Jeremy
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I hear you Sun, I hear you. But… by culture and by hard-coded-law at this point, the decision on who to have sex with is *entirely* in the hands of the females… and in doing this, they’ve removed all requirements on trusting men to discriminate on who they have sex with (responsibility begets power, and power requires responsibility, you wanted all the power ladies, so enjoy all the responsibility)… so male friends having sex with your flings at this point should be entirely forgiven. I’m just thinking outright logically here, I’m trying to keep emotion out of this thought process.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy

Put another way: knowing about hypergamy, and knowing that there’s always a guy better than you out there no matter how hard you work, why purposely keep one of them around making your life hard?

Badpainter
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Sun Wukong – “I will not poach from friends/family, as I value my friends more than my lays. I generally avoid poaching married chicks, but not as a moral concern. It’s just too much of a pain in the ass if the husband finds out.” In the current moral and ethical climate that seems a decent practical solution, but only because the husband is not enough of a pain in the ass. Sadly the law restricts men from violent retribution against poachers and the poached thus all responsibility for the actions of a cheating wife fall on the husband who… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun

Women are hypergamous. If a dude can routinely activate the hypergamy in the women you meet and does so without considering the impact to you, he’s not much value in your life. Why would I purposely put myself in that situation?

Ah, but your argument here precludes any notion of faithfulness in the woman you’ve chosen. She can’t both be capable of commitment to you, and a child in need of protection from your more-alpha buddies at the same time…

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy so male friends having sex with your flings at this point should be entirely forgiven. No. Remember in earlier threads where we chastised Cupkate for not curbing her own hypergamy? Men can curb their polygyny, too. They still have a choice in the matter hence my laying out my own limits. The choice not to do so for close friends is the choice to accept the consequences: you will be ostracized by male friends with the self-respect to realize they can find more friends. I choose not to ostracize myself from friendships I value. Other guys don’t. I don’t… Read more »

Random Angeleno
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Loyalty counts among men. Don’t have to have been in the service to experience that with other men. I was never in the service, but I know what loyalty is and I know why it is so important. That is what burns when looking for a woman; the available ones do not have it. At all. There do exist women who are loyal. Commonalities to these women: they grew up in traditional, typically religious settings with parents who stayed together, whose fathers were strong enough to command the daughters’ respect and adoration. Then they were raised and trained from birth… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy She can’t both be capable of commitment to you, and a child in need of protection from your more-alpha buddies at the same time… Notice how I excise the woman as well? I’m not protecting her. I’m making my own situation easier. Look I accept that women routinely trade up. If I find one that doesn’t trade up given those circumstances, I’m looking at a unicorn and would consider keeping her if I dig her enough to stay loyal to her. I’m already assuming all women will bail given a higher quality man. But if I’m spinning plates, I… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Keep in mind also I’m not saying this is some kind of moral absolute everybody has to obey; most of the public would say fucking a married woman is absolutely morally reprehensible yet I’ve done it and don’t feel bad about it. I’m just saying that it’s one of those things a guy has to decide for himself for his own reasons. If you won’t go for married chicks, cool. If you’ll fuck your friends’ chicks without hesitation, that’s fine too. I’m not judging you morally, I understand the logic, just understand that I’d have no desire to be your… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo I’ve actually had a similar experience when I was around 20. I was Blue Pill in a really bad way, and I had a similar betrayal, but it was really that Blue Pill idealism that was injured. Yes, back when I’d react angrily, it was about the BP idealism being shot down which is why I’d be only angry at the guy. The woman was pedestalized, but the guy wasn’t so I could be angry at him. These days it’s a simple logical choice. I debated exactly what Jeremy is saying (hence the reason that I’m not angry where… Read more »

BC
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@Jeremy re: question on poaching If it was my wife, then both the wife and buddy PUA would be in a shitload of trouble. Marriage definitely over. Continued friendship with buddy PUA? Possible, but complicated, since this is technically crossing a legal line in the biblical sense, which would be my only reason for marriage in the first place. If it was a fiancé, then buddy PUA would have just done me a huge favor a la the tradition of the Best Man’s duty to warn and make sure the groom is fully informed and knows exactly what he is… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo

Agreed. I’ve tried to remove as many obstacles to my polygyny as I feel comfortable removing, and I’ve drawn a line I feel is reasonable. It’s up to each man to define his own line, as TRP is amoral. It simply describes how things are. It’s up to you to decide what you want to do with that knowledge.

It’s like The Force and shit.

Bluepillprofessor
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Re: 22 soldiers a day kill themselves. For 10 years, Dan Rather gleefully counted off: “The Three-thousandth, one-hundred and sixty fourth soldier to die SINCE GEORGE BUSH DECLARED MISSION ACCOMPLISHED IN IRAQ.” Even during the battle of Fallujah we didn’t lose 22 soldiers a day! I think it was 100 dead in a 9 day battle. That is 1/2 what we are losing today and nobody cares! There is not a Republican to blame so the media won’t report it. Where is the newscaster informing us: “The Sixty-fifth thousand two hundred and ninetieth soldier to die since President Obama lost… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@bp But I do wonder how is poaching not the same as theiving or vandalism? Are you talking from the legal or the ethical standpoint? Legally, there’s laws against those two. There’s no laws against fucking a married person. Ethically, the stolen or vandalized object didn’t consent to being stolen or vandalized; presuming the sex was consensual, there was one person violating a marriage contract willingly and another person with no such obligation involved. The cuckold IS a victim and current marriage law IS fucked in that he can’t strip the woman of everything she owns and the kids. Should… Read more »

sudden
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It strikes me as some level of cognitive dissonance to absolve a man of any moral agency for his role in facilitating an affair with a hypergamous cheating woman. I’m not implying that his actions are of equal moral fault as those of the woman who is cheating (they are nowhere near it in fact since he’s made no agreement with the aggrieved party), but they’re certainly of questionable moral virtue. And frankly I think it’s kinda weak on the part of the man. When you pick up a single, unattached woman, you’re competing with every cock in the world.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Of course there’s always the situation where she runs off and marries the guy she cucked you with. I always root for that one to happen. “Good move dude; you already know she’ll cheat and you married her anyway. What could possibly go wrong?”

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/5900-black-guy-thumbs-up.jpg

Sun Wukong
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@sudden

When I stopped giving a shit was when I realized not only was hypergamy rampant, but other dudes were enjoying the benefits by running roughshod over me. It became readily clear to me that the vast majority of men will take from me regardless of the situation given the chance.

Additionally, the only married woman I slept with was interested in me for years, but I left it alone. Then he cheated on her. Clearly I should be concerned about his crocodile tears.

Allen
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The OP had no problem fucking other men’s girlfriends, but all of a sudden he has a moral crisis at the thought of fucking another man’s wife?
To which I reply, You big pussy, sack up and fuck that whore, because if ya don’t someone else will, so it might as well be you.

as for this question: “is it even possible to hold down a monogamous relationship?” Fuck no, especially in the military environs, all women are whores. A man’s only option nowadays is to be a ruthless player or go celibate.

sudden
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@sun It isn’t about respecting your fellow man at all. Yes, chances are that guy wouldn’t think twice about fucking you over if the tables turned. Who cares? His actions, whether hypothetical or actualized don’t register on my radar. And I’ve frankly been, if anything, thankful to the guy my wife left me for and proceeded to wife up for unintentionally forcing me into this community. The point is that I act independently of the world around me and in a way consistent with my value, the world at large be damned. My point of view is that the “eat… Read more »

Skenectady
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Your site does a great disservice perpetuating the myth of military superiority in any area, including loyalty. I am a ringknocker myself and I personally would not turn my back on any of my “brothers in arms.” The reason the poster describes a “brotherhood” and a “difficult transition into civilian life” is not because of any transcendent qualities of the military, but simply the comforts of a high-prestige government welfare program. Let’s just slaughter this last sacred cow of the truth movement. The modern military is one of the biggest enablers of the social justice ilk, it is prevalent everywhere… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo Actually something occurred to me following the exchange Jeremy and I just had. How is a guy supposed to deal with: “knowing about hypergamy, and knowing that there’s always a guy better than you out there no matter how hard you work”? This is actually one I struggle with. There’s the obvious “It’s hopeless to expect a committed long term relationship these days” which I’m leaning more and more towards. There’s outcome independence. But it’s such a blow to attempts to build self-confidence in realizing that there’s always going to be better out there than you, and you’re competing… Read more »

Badpainter
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@ Sun Wukong The stolen or vandalized property is the sanctity of the marriage. The victim is the husband. A victim of a fraud perpetrated by the wife in collusion with the poacher. When marriage meant something it was a publicly recognized union that the community agreed to support and defend. Which is why there are rituals and public vows, with offical witnesses to validate. The involvement of the state, or some authority was to ensure parties outside that union didn’t actively interfere without consequence. Consent on the part of the wife means nothing without the consent of the husband… Read more »

jf12
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@Jeremy, re: “Did he not just save you the trouble of committing to someone who clearly couldn’t remain exclusive on you?”

Yeah, but. It depends his level of effort expended. If he went through a lot of trouble to seduce the girlfriend then he didn’t do me any favors.

Sun Wukong
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@sudden

It isn’t about respecting your fellow man at all.

Oh really?

Men in the sphere will wax poetic about the higher degree of honor inherent in men as compared to women, but won’t treat their fellow man or even themselves with the slightest modicum of respect.

What was it not about again?

Don’t try to fucking shame me by claiming other people are “controlling my frame” when clearly they’re controlling yours by getting you so upset. Take that shit elsewhere.

jf12
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@Jeremy, re: pissed

That’s the correct reaction. She’s using the two of your in her hypergamy, not the other way around.

Sun Wukong
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@bp

I think you’re torturing the metaphor a bit there, but I digress. So far as I know it’s never in our history been illegal to be the other man (or other woman, for that matter). It’s often been socially ostracizing, but not illegal. Why is that?

Water Cannon Boy
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That training that builds such loyalty is preparing you for some of the worst situation that you could possibly find yourself in. Where you need to make sure somebody will fight for you and you will fight for them. That can’t translate to someone who’s only going to be concerned with you fighting for them, (or benefiting them) because that’s what you’re supposed to do, and anything reciprocating is a major convenience. Regardless of how minor the analogous situation. A lot of aspects of basic training and the military unfortunately probably helps lead men to being blue pill with women,… Read more »

jf12
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In what world does two men having to time-share a woman count as polygyny instead of hypergamy?

Of all hypothetical sexual strategies, universal rampant promiscuity is probably the most equal, but it is out because most women won’t do it with most men.

But two women do not mind sharing one of the top 20% of men, as much as men mind sharing with other men.

Sun Wukong
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@jf12

In what world does two men having to time-share a woman count as polygyny instead of hypergamy?

Girl World

The same world that brought you “Hitting on me is Rape Culture!” and “If you’re hawt it’s cute, if you’re not it’s creepy!”

jf12
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The efficient cause of almost all couples’ relationship problems is that the woman has become (or always was) sexually unattracted to her “sexual” “partner”, and behaves accordingly, i.e. to drive the other away sexually. Whenever she becomes reattracted, the relationship almost always rebounds markedly and the couple become sexual and become partners again. I don’t think it’s true that it’s the woman’s selection of a “better” man that causes her to be disloyal. It is her deselection of the original man. It all goes back to the important of rejection instead of selection. I’m almost certain that during the times… Read more »

jf12
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The one side of a woman’s sexual loyalty is her not having sex with other men. But the other side of sexual loyalty is important too: her continuing to be sexually active with her sexual partner. “Not cheating” seems such a low bar.

sudden
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@sun Sure, I paid small lip service at the beginning to respecting fellow men, but you read enough to know that my point was entirely about self-respect and acquiescing to the larger feminine-primary social order than anything else. Let’s not be disingenuous in these discussions. As for the second bit, I certainly never implied any shame upon you. You’re here and I’ve read enough of what you’ve said here, I consider you a brother-in-arms of sorts. Moreover, I’m not suggesting that your frame is compromised by people. Rather, you’re operating as best you feel you can in a broad society… Read more »

Tarrou
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Bit of a second to the writer, former infantry sergeant here. I struggled adjusting to civilian life, but I actually killed it with women coming out. The thing is simple. Girls are the enemy, the objective, the hill. Your mission is to subvert their defenses, assault the breach and lay fucking waste. Plus, even for a hardcore blue-piller, life in the infantry barracks will disabuse you of any pedestalizing with a quickness. An endless stream of women, most of them with husbands or boyfriends churn through the barracks, fucking anything that moves. The lads I served with thought nothing of… Read more »

D-Man
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Yeah, there’s always gonna be some guy out there better than you, once “new” qualifies as better, which the whole mainstream appears to be trying to convince them of these days. Massive reddit thing a couple weeks ago where a dude (supposedly, could’ve been fake) live-blogged discovering his wife’s cheating: http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/2sxpww/the_tifu_life_of_zack_carly_jenny_popcorn_spilled/ …it’s almost like some kind of infidelity porn. Are peoples lives too boring? But sometimes I also wonder if there isn’t a biological driver working behind this. The way we do relationships these days, we generally fuck and/or co-habitate for Years before thinking of having a kid. Could the… Read more »

sudden
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@skenectady I agree wholeheartedly with what you said. Well, save one: blaming bankers for war-mongering. I work in finance and most of the people I interact with generally believe war should be an option only for defense of the homeland. Bankers and financeers are the ones that enable a modern economy to innovate and thrive and though they do so only out of self-interest, it doesn’t negate the contributions. They’re only widely castigated throughout the manosphere because of this perverse obsession with TEH JOOOOOS!!1!!1!!1!!! And yet growing up in a heavily jewish neighborhood with many a life long jewish friend,… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong Men can curb their polygyny, too. They still have a choice in the matter hence my laying out my own limits. Why are you chastising yourself for feeling a natural human emotion about an experience that’s unpleasant? I’m not, I’m taking red pill understanding to it’s extreme in this conversation. I feel no guilt over removing people from my life for betrayal. Those feelings at the time were real and their lack of remorse made it much easier. Men have a choice of whether or not to voluntarily give attention to a woman. That’s about the limit of… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@sudden But what caught me as some measure of that cognitive dissonance is that upthread you discussed how you rule out single moms, which I take to mean that you have standards and can afford to have standards based on your ability to get it elsewhere. I rule them out as a practical matter. Single moms are just a bad idea. They have no time for you, and their kids come first. From the perspective of enlightened self-interest, that’s a dumb idea. If I’m with a woman, I want her giving me attention, not some other dude’s spawn. Additionally, you… Read more »

jf12
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@D-man, re: biological drivers

It doesn’t matter if he’s a dud. For example the most common scenario is the wife losing interest after popping out a kid or two. What seems to be the biological driver is the living together.

jf12
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Q. Can there be a marriage boot camp in which women learn loyalty, or else, and “sir yes sir”? I think so.
Q. Could it be mandated, so that women *have* to undergo loyalty boot camps? I think so.
Q. Could it work, i.e. make the women more loyal? I think so.
Q. Would women permit it? Nope.

Rhett
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@Bango Tango and Islam is very much the solution to the social destruction caused by feminism in the West. And 10×10’s rabid bigotry will not change the reality that Islam is a far more tolerant religion historically than Christianity. When the Muslims conquered the Middle East, the local Christians and Jews continued to live there and practice their religion. Contrast that with every effort by European Christians to destroy both Judaism and Islam. The Crusaders not only killed all the Jews and Muslims in Palestine, they killed all the Arab Christians as well for having dark skin like the enemy.… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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An older woman who is a very close friend of mine made an interesting statement this evening that dove tails into this post somewhat. She was never married, no children, had a few intense long term relationships in her life and remains close with one whom she almost married in her twenties over forty years ago. She is very well educated, masters degree and left Harvard while writing her dissertation on an English history subject. Would have a PHD From Harvard if she didn’t switch gears and go into banking, became a senior Vice President for a well respected international… Read more »

Nathan
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“the Feminine Imperative convinces men that unfettered Hypergamy is a benefit to them.”
the further elaboration of that statement would make an excellent blog posTing

sudden
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@sun I get it man. Fuck, I get it more than I ever wanted to get it. My only final clarification is that I’m not mad at single moms or hypergamous women either. I am mad at the same thing you are: third wave feminism. And while I know you can’t kill an idea, I gotta believe it can be driven back, if only for a time. Part of the ebbs and flows of humanity. And while I definitely recognize that my waging that war is the proverbial grain of sand in the ocean of shit, I’ll keep on keeping… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Rollo, “Men are the true romantics, not women. They talk a good game, but it’s men who are the real slaves to romanticism. It’s men who conceive every romantic gesture. Mrs. Tomassi wears the wedding ring my father picked out for my mom all those years ago. The back story is kind of lost on her, she just loves the ring and life goes on. We want to believe in the fairy tale. We want to believe we’ll be the exception against all odds and every horror story. My father was probably the most uninspired man you’d ever meet when… Read more »

Steve H
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Skenectady got to it before I could, but it’s otherwise been overlooked in these comments – poaching is about one thing and one thing only: scarcity. Aside: I was surprised that there was no mention of Holly Fisher in this piece. There is the hyperamy-triggered disloyalty of a woman, there is the betrayal of your best male friend, and then there is Holly Fisher and her path to GOP celebrity figure and the most astounding tale of hypocrisy I’ve seen in a while. I’ll just leave that there… Back to this topic – I’ll lay out my thoughts on ethics… Read more »

Softek
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re: suicide I’m not a veteran, but I attempted suicide recently. You could say I’m a veteran of mental illness. That’s for sure. Heh. That whole spectrum isn’t only familiar to me, it’s more or less where I’ve lived for the past 13+ years. There’s a Red Pill with psychology/psychiatry too, for sure. And that one’s a doozy. I’m not even going to go there. Should be a whole nother blog devoted to that — hell, maybe I’ll start one. I’ve been recovering from my “episodes” a lot more rapidly lately. A lot of that is owing to the fact… Read more »

sudden
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@Rhett This is all very interesting. But Islam’s historical achievements notwithstanding, is there any Muslim society today that can lay claim to giving such a wide berth to non-Muslims? It would seem the Ottoman empire and later Turkey functioned as such for some time, but under Erdogan and the moderate islamist party he leads, it seems that the pendulum is swinging back in the other direction. And weren’t the Christians and Jews of the Iberian peninsula still subject to the jizya and the laws governing the dhimmi and their participation in government? What was the status of intoxicants like alcohol… Read more »

Steve H
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Oh and on the notion of ‘Well, if I fuck my buddy’s fiance/girlfriend, I’m kinda actually doing him a favor by proving she’s disloyal so that he can be spared of wasting more time with her and future heartache blah blah…’

C’mon. Bullshit.

The minute you convincingly ascertain that she is intending to try to fuck you, you don’t need to go one step farther. You keep your cock in your pocket, and you tell your buddy. That’s called loyalty. Doing anything beyond that is stabbing him in the back, and however you justify it is just bullshit, period.

Steve H
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Not often that I disagree with Jeremy, but: “As has been said, you can’t escape the game. I hesitate to fault any man for restraining his practice of game under any circumstances, to do so is to ask males to accept that their own sexual strategy must take a back seat to somewhat outdated notions of honor. If males could simply go out, exercise their power of choice, and tell any individual women “come home with me, we’ll fuck,” and have it work regardless of which women they told it to, they would do so. That would be power of… Read more »

BC
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@Steve H: No, it’s not necessarily bullshit. What if she insists that she had no intention of going all the way and that she was only testing the friend’s loyalty since he made advances on her first, and that it was important to you to know about your friend’s disloyalty and to her because she is serious about you and doesn’t want someone disloyal, dangerous and destructive around you and this was the only way to make sure that you would believe her because he’s your friend and etc. etc. etc. And if you think that arguments like that have… Read more »

sudden
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@BC, I’m sure her rationalization hamster would go into such overdrive to try and absolve her of her guilt. And maybe a male rationalization hamster would believe as much. But that would be the height of naivete on his part. Any man who would believe as much would deserve what he gets.

Steve H
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Sure, those horseshit arguments been made by duplicitous women countless times and believed by countless naive fools. But that’s entirely irrelevant when considering the ethics of the matter. Any man who takes that possibility as license to fuck that particular woman is scum, and I’d disown him immediately if he had any friendship/social connection to me.

Steve H
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And if I were the one to tell my buddy that his girl tried to fuck me, and his girl turned it around as you describe, then the matter is out of my hands at that point, isn’t it. It’s his call. He can believe her, take ‘her side’ and consider me dead to him/them, whatever he decides. But I’d have done my part.

Will
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But, @rollo, then how have my parents been together for 35 years? My mom was hot when she was younger and my dad isn’t all that. He’s done some cool shit like pilots license and building his first home etc.

But there can’t be thattttt much negativity around LTRs today?

….or is there? Is it b/c society has changed so much?

Steve H
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Will – in the 1970s, people had a tiny fraction of the amount of choices they have for seeking sexual relationships in 2015. For women particularly, having too many choices is dramatically deleterious to their capability to be faithful. Too much choice for women renders hypergamy exponential.

Brody
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Re: cognitive dissonance Yeah, this thread and post are full of it. It takes some hardass hypocrisy and nuclear-grade rationalizations to rag on women’s lack of morals and wax about “ethics” while engaging in and promoting immoral behavior yourself. Since supposedly TRP is “amoral.” Bull. Nothing we do is “amoral” – our actions are either moral or not. In case it’s not clear, no, what’s moral is not everything that makes your dick happy. What’s more, unless you’re a sociopath, you know it. If you abandon a code of decency and honor, you are nothing. A maggot. And don’t start… Read more »

tribeofuno
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This is where I was…. Lost in my hometown. I recently broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years. Well, it’s been almost 5 months since we broke up and I’m still having problems adjusting. My girlfriend was socially awkward when I met her. She dressed like she was at work (PE teacher) all the time, wore very little make-up. On her behalf she was a very busy person, I’m not saying being a teacher is easy. Classic PE teacher looks, but she had something in her that said she was the most beautiful person in the world. I can’t… Read more »

jf12
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@BC, re: “What if she insists that she had no intention of going all the way”

If? Every single time she will say it, and she will mean it when she says it.

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