Father Knows Best

luke

I received the following from Mark Minter in this week’s comment thread. Regardless of what your or my opinion of Minter is, I will admit this is an area I haven’t explored before:

I have a request for a post. It is for a rework of a Rational Male post sometime back about sons of divorce that try to be “better than dad”.

I would think you might have more to say on the topic since a couple of years have passed since you posted it.

Or perhaps how a newly red pill divorced father might approach his son, especially if there has been a period of estrangement.

I have a “date” for a phone call with my son after quite a long period. You might imagine my relationship with my “old family” is sort of “interesting”, to put it euphemistically. My daughter has dropped my last name from social media accounts. My son calls himself “Younger Minter” and his assumed “middle name” is “Fucking”. Sort of a throwback to mine back in the day, but he seems quite pissed though.

I have been told these things can be quite emotional, and then a flurry of contact, but then a “backsliding” away from contact. Inevitably and probably rightfully so, he has innate loyalty to his mother. And he grew up in one of places that is so liberal it is often referred to as “The People’s Republic of …”

So the question is “How to bring him along?”

If by “bring him along” you mean convince him you’re not the asshole he’s convinced you are, that’s really subjective to your personal history and how amenable he is to listening to your side of the story. That said, there’s a world aligned against you that’s likely conditioned your son not just to hate you, but to loath his own sex by association with your past decisions and circumstances.

My intent with this weekend’s discussion isn’t to run Minter up the flagpole, but rather delve into a tough Red Pill area – reestablishing a lost or misguided connection with a son or daughter, from a post-Red Pill awareness perspective.

The post Mark is referencing was Promise Keepers. In that post I hit this situation from the opposite side:

Slay the Father

One common theme I’ve encountered amongst the more zealous beta White Knights I’ve counseled over the years has been this determination, bordering on fanaticism, with outdoing the life-performance of their asshole fathers. Before I go on further, many of them had legitimately rotten, alcoholic dads, who were abusive to them and their mothers. Others had the perception of their fathers colored for them either by their ‘strong independent®’ single mothers, or by watching their fathers resolve their own beta tendencies in a post-divorce life. Whatever the case, each of these guys had a mission – to be a better man than their father was, protect their mothers, and by extension the future mother their girlfriends and wives would become for them. His father’s personal failings would be his personal triumphs.

Being the father in this scenario and attempting to reestablish an after-the-fact, positive connection with a son is a very tall order. It’s almost easier to address the particulars of a daughter with ‘daddy issues’ who’s absent father contributed to her ‘victim status’ condition than it is to consider the upbringing and feminine conditioning a boy receives in his father’s relative absence.

The difficulty being that a son will have every negative perception of his father reinforced for him by a feminine-primary social order. Even in the rare instances when an insightful mother doesn’t resentfully color her son’s negative perceptions of his father during his formative years, there is an entire world of feminine social conventions pressing and affirming that impression into him.

From Daddy Issues:

Matrix Fathers

Have a look at postsecret this week. It’ll all be gone by Sunday so have a look while it lasts. This week’s thread is the usual fare for Father’s Day, a hearty “Fuck You Dad!” or “You’re the reason I’m so fucked up!” interspersed with a couple ‘good dad’ sentiments so as not to entirely degrade the feminized ideal of fatherhood – wouldn’t want to discourage men’s perpetual ‘living up’ to the qualifications set by the feminine imperative. There has to be a little cheese in the maze or else the rat wont perform as desired.

I always see a marked difference in attitude between mother’s day and father’s day, especially now that I’ve been one for 14 years. I was listening to a local talk radio show on the ride home Friday that was opening lines for callers to express their ‘gratitude‘ for their fathers, as they’d done the previously in May for mother’s day. Damn near every caller had the same “fuck you dad!” story about how shitty their lives were because of their father’s influence or his lack thereof. One girl had called in to bleat out her story about how her dad had left her mother 30 years ago and for the last 10 years she’d sent him a father’s day card with a big ‘FU’ on it to tell him she’d never forgive him. Another guy called in to say how horrible his dad was for leaving his mom and how he sends her a father’s day card because he thinks she fulfilled a masculine role for him that he owes some gratitude for.

Father’s Day is a slap in the face for me now – not because my wife and daughter don’t appreciate me as a father, but because it’s become a big “fuck you” Mr. Man. It’s now a reminder (as if we needed a special occasion) that masculinity, even in as positive a light as the Matrix might muster, is devalued and debased, and we ought to just take it like a man and get over it.

It’s a difficult task to unplug a man who’s a friend and open his eyes to Red Pill awareness. That guy has to be seeking answers to really be open to having his ego-investments in his conditioning challenged and realigned – you can’t really make a man Red Pill aware, he’s got to come to it in some fashion. This is a very important distinction to make when the man you’re attempting to unplug is your own son.

A father in this predicament has the double jeopardy of clearing his name as a father and as a representative of masculinity – the representation of all the negative aspects the Feminine Imperative has ever embedded into him about the taint of his own masculinity. As I mentioned in Promise Keepers, some of the most ardent anti-conventional-masculinity crusaders I’ve ever encountered all had the common denominator of a ‘bad dad’. There are no ‘deadbeat mothers’.

Minter’s not the first father to ask me for advice about this. One of the more painful aspects of waking up and accepting Red Pill truths is coming to terms with the consequences of basing your past decisions on a Blue Pill paradigm. I can empathize with younger unplugged Betas getting angry with themselves for having wasted part of their lives with the effort of chasing after the carrot of Blue Pill goals, but it’s an entirely different anger older men feel after coming to realize that their lives and the lives of their children (the only reason to get married, remember?) are the results of their Blue Pill decision making.

Fortunately I had my Red Pill awakening prior to my daughter being born and had the foresight to live by example. However I know enough men in similar straights as Minter to see what an impossible task it is to untangle the past Blue Pill version of themselves with the Red Pill aware men they’ve become. I do not envy them.

I think the questions for the weekend are obvious:

I understand that Mark is seeking reconciliation here, and it may not even be warranted, but what would advise you men in a similar situation?

Attempting to unplug a friend, even one in a trauma that makes him ready to hear Red Pill truths, is a difficult task, but when that man is your own son how do you go about it?

Bear in mind I do understand that raising your son by a Red Pill example would be ideal. I’ve written about it before. What I’m asking is how to approach a young man already steeped in a Blue Pill feminized conditioning for the better part of his life and make him Red Pill aware? That kid may be a son who’s made it his life’s mission to be a “better man” than you based on the definition of a feminine social doctrine that’s taught him to hate you, his own sex, or at the very least would prefer he remain confused about masculinity until after he’s committed himself to useful Beta provisioning when a woman needs it most from him.

I’ll give my own response in the comments.

Related:
Dreams of the Future Past

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

160 comments on “Father Knows Best

  1. Gosh, hardly know what to say here. I read so much anger and resentment at fathers, I’m almost afraid to report I had a solid relationship with mine. And with my mother as well. H That must be so anomalous and on the far side of the Bell curve that I stand as some sort of freak.

    But maybe I can contribute one aspect of what I think my fahter did right by me and my brothers (of course my mother was the typical mid-Fifties June Cleaver wife,SAH-she didn’t even have a drivers’ license and we lived in the country, who pretty much oved up and yiedl to my father as HoH) and what I did right by my kids: Spend time with them all. T-I-M-E! Not money, not gifts, not free with anything, except time. There is no substitute.

    Yeah, “I coulda been a contender in my profession”, I started out “hot” di lots of running around, committees this, work force that, serving here and there, building up rep; but then it all got boring as hell and I found time spent with kids was far more important, as my father and I discussed, since that was his philosophy. I added a wrinkle: Give your kids the gift of poverty. My father gave that to me as well, but only because he had a small-time job, with a wife and four kids to support. He bragged about saving money and spending wisely.

    We were never short on the basics, but never went wild on extravagance either. He was never in debt, except for the house, which he paid off ASAP. Cars were all used and kept forever. Jobs were encouraged and I held multiple low-paying jobs (grew up in a college town where very decent paying job and even the crappy ones were taken by students) and paid my way through my own schooling, turning down offers of parental help.

    Got married to a decent young woman, semi-feminist with daddy issues, but worked through the rough spots, but always focused on spending time with the kids when they came. Admit that I did “step outside the marriage” for some …er…moral support….. and other stuff, but always faced down threats of divorce as bad for the kids. Even got the kids to the point they mocked mom’s dislike of me at certain stages; all as a result of spending time with them and never substituting swag for that.

    Remember there is no such thing as “quality time” to a kid. That’s a femnist myht to assuage their guilt over their careerism. Just sitting around, doing nothing or throwing or kicking a ball or walking in the park, its ALL quality time to a kid. Fathers, if you man up for anything from a frivorce, double and triple down on time with the kids.

  2. Are you seeking “reconciliation” or are you seeking approval?

    If it’s reconciliation you want, then exactly what is being reconciled? Any reconcilliation can only occur if ALL persons involved in the estrangement or rift admit the truth and each forgive and forget. Usually no party to an estrangement or bitter rift is without fault. It takes 2 (or more) to fight. And probably the most fault is with those persons promoting the FI. You may be willing to concede your past mistakes, etc. but I highly double the other parties will. Their self images, ego investments and entire approach to life requires that they maintain their current delusional perspective. Hating, shaming, and vilifying you is central to their destructive paradigm. If you are seeking approval, then you are subjugating yourself to their destructive intent, its run amuck feral FI and lies.

    The best way to gain your sons respect and to teach him anything, is to first realize that your son owes you respect by virtue of the fact that you are his father. Second, make no apologizes for being a man. Be the best MAN you can for yourself. Set a truly masculine example for him. You sure as hell owe him no reconcilliation by begging for acceptance or forgiveness. If you succumb to the the FI, he will NEVER respect you.

  3. Oh and a couple of ther points that failed to escape my brain hereinabove: Of that time spent read to to your kids. Nothing expands their minds and builds up rapport like sharing the adventures of reading. Establish some common ground easily this way.

    Next respect their growth, but always act a firm, but not dictatiorial, Parent with a capital “P”. That means frequent use of the word “no”, but such use should be consistent and as fair as possible, with an explanation, as the kids get older, it shows respect.

    Sports—do them! I’m no athlete, but I got them, and me involved in simple stuff. Soccer is great, one pair of shoes and a ball. Never played it all, but I learned with them, again, common ground established.

    Show a sense of humor and be self-depracating, especially when they get older. My kids joked with and about me constantly, but always from a position of respect. They knew I could take some abuse, but if it went too far, we’d always wrestle, never fight; its a far different challenge when you wrestle and you cn even do it albeit gently, with a daughter. To this day, my friends are shocked with how good a friends I am with my kids, with all the teasing and testing of each other that we do. They were never afraid, but knew they had limits, based on respect and the time spent together.

    Yet, all in all, it comes back to time spent.

  4. “You have this attitude, you’ll never have any kind of relationship with your kid.”

    This is not true. No matter what, every child and parent has some kind of relationship, even those who haven’t met. You will have some kind of relationship with your kid no matter what. What matters is the KIND of relationship that exists and how that relationship affects the parties in it.

    Improve yourself, be honest, be in control of your life to the best of your ability and all your relationships will improve.

  5. @Glenn “You don’t believe that children you raised and provided for owe you at least basic respect and civility? ….
    Just see what happens if you get sick or lose your job and have financial difficulties.”

    I am talking in simple terms of my actions being outcome independent and proceeding from the strength (even if it is economic), courage, mastery and honor of being a masculine father in a pitifully feminine society. If I failed to have these qualities in my tribe 10,000 years ago I might die and be nexted. If I fail in these masculine traits today, I might be broke, depressed and nexted.

    Yes, I do hope my children I raised and provide for owe me more than basic respect and civility. And that is in place now. But it’s their prerogative to change their minds of their own free will. My parents are still alive and provided wonderfully for me up until I left home and was employed and it worked out great for me.

    My further donations to my children are of my own free will and are outcome independent. They may owe me but I’m not expecting any payback at all.

    Sure, I may get felled in battle. But one thing that guided me through my professional training for my career was my own voice in the back of my head continually telling myself “Don’t F**k UP!” If I do fail in the battle, I’ve had a enjoyable, honorable life and don’t regret anything except actual and metaphorical taxes.

    I live in a Midwest town with a very low divorce rate and some very well provided for and well behaved early 20’s children. I personally can count on two hands women I know that are divorced or not currently moderately happilly married. My latest hobby is not getting divorced because I want to be with my wife. And it is going well currently.

  6. @ cholo – Great comment, thanks. And I for one am glad to hear that you had a good relationship with your Dad – I’m jealous.

    But there is one subtle distinction I’d like to make regarding your comment about spending time with your children. Of course, at the most basic level you are correct. Time spent with your children is crucial, particularly when they are little, under say 9-10 years old. But I think some people have twisted that idea around, and I think it’s really a female informed view of how fathers should behave.

    Let me give an example. I helped coach my daughter’s 7 yr old soccer team, it was coed. We would practice on the weekends and have games but it was all just skill development. And the kids couldn’t play at all. But I was amazed at how many parents would come to the practice and watch, not the games – the practice. Why on earth is a parent watching a practice of a 7 year old playing a game they suck at? Do these parents not have anything better to do? These parents communicate to their children a ridiculous idea about how important their children are to them.

    When I was that age, in 1969? First off, the coach would have told my parents to leave, that he didn’t want parents interfering in the practice session. And none of the father’s of my teammates would ever have dreamed of wasting their saturday morning watching us practice. Hell, I could barely get to practice sometimes cuz my Dad just didn’t feel like being my driver. I was to find a friend to get a ride with most of the time and that’s the way most parents were. We usually car pooled to practices, with a parent, usually the mom, taking turns driving 3-4 of us so the other parents could get on with their lives.

    What are these helicoptering parents teaching their children? That their lives are not that important, that they don’t value their own free time. That they don’t have anything better to do with their lives. And i see this in a million ways with parents today. And I say this is a modern woman’s idea of parenting, the obsessiveness, the involvement in every minute aspect of your child’s life.

    Just saw a great Red Pill flick last night, Whiplash – men, and ego, and performance and greatness and competition and fear and malice. Really well done. J. K. Simmons was in it, he’s 60. I tried to clip a pic of him and put it in here but no joy. He’s my new role model, in many ways…

  7. @ siffrellc – Nice, good for you. But just so we are clear, you agree with me. In fact, your children do owe you something in your eyes. Me, I don’t even ask for gratitude, I just don’t want to be lashed out at and denigrated and treated poorly. That’s not a very high bar.

    So we are not in disagreement. The rest of what you said was quite contradictory. I’m just talking about civility. Listen, I can even understand adult children and parents not being super close. Sometimes parents and adult children don’t like each other that much – it happens. So, you do the couple of times a year, birthday and holidays kind of thing. Suck it up and play nice, because it’s family and you actually value it at some level. This is what nice, considerate people do. And oftentimes family relationships change over the years, so you should remain open. And really, just be smart, if you don’t like your parents, don’t spend time with them.

    This is where I saw my daughter as at with me by the time she was 24. I wasn’t happy about it, but I was not deeply troubled by it either. She was young, I figured her head is getting big, she got a running start in life and was doing well, I had gotten sick and was really set back by 2008, so I just kind of soldiered on, and was content to let it lie. I get it, she doesn’t owe me love or being friendly and affectionate, you can’t ask that of anyone. That has to be given – but my daughter began to lash out at me and treat me really viciously.

    I really didn’t want to do this here. So many guys get activated by how I talk about my daughter. Get this, it was this event that had me find the Red Pill. I could not process how fucked up things had become. I was google searching on “Parental Alienation” and discovered the Red Pill. 2 years ago. It was the gang-up attack on me that my two sister’s engaged in with my daughter, I won’t give the blow by blow – it was bizarre. I could not understand how any of this could have happened to me.

    The Red Pill explained it all. Men are disposable to women. I hope you never find that out from your wife or daughters. But don’t dare think you are immune – your whole world could be ripped apart by a woman at any time. Don’t kid yourself. Even in small town Utopias like you seem to believe you live in.

  8. @Not Born

    “This is not true. No matter what, every child and parent has some kind of relationship, even those who haven’t met. You will have some kind of relationship with your kid no matter what. What matters is the KIND of relationship that exists and how that relationship affects the parties in it.
    Improve yourself, be honest, be in control of your life to the best of your ability and all your relationships will improve.”

    This is completely wrong. I have no relationship with my father, none. I’ve said maybe a sentence to him in the past 2 years. This problem has nothing whatsoever to do with concepts of ‘masculinity’ or ‘being a positive masculine role-model’ or disenfranchisement by the FI, yadda yadda – has nothing to do with RP whatsoever. It has to do with responsibility and admitting you fucked up big time.

    You have a responsibility as a parent, male, female, alien, whatever. You have a responsibility to raise a kid. That means financially, spending time, imparting wisdom (which can include RP), and everything in between. If you didn’t do this when the kid was growing up – if you weren’t there or refused to pay for anything, you’ve got a serious problem to fix if you’re looking for reconciliation decades later with that kid. ‘Being masculine, improving your life by being as such’ is good advice, but it has no place in fixing this problem. The kid couldn’t give two shits how masculine you are if you weren’t there for two decades.

    I’m a big fan of this blog and RP-awareness, but when it comes to this issue, it has no place. This is about parental responsibility.

  9. I don’t think that I feel anger about most of the shit I went through anymore. I’ve started to view my parents exactly like I view everyone else: most people don’t hurt you out of malice, they just do it as a side effect of selfishly getting what they want. Hurting you is only incidental to fulfilling their own selfish motives.

    Doesn’t mean I excuse people in general or my parents for such behavior (which is why I still make no effort to talk with my father), it just informs me why I shouldn’t waste time being angry with them.

  10. Glenn, you are very perceptive. My middle name is Contradictory. It’s either a strength or weakness depending on the topic. I’m Meyer’s-Briggs type INTJ. Similar to the fictional Walter White in Breaking bad and how he viewed performing for his family.

    “A paradox to most observers, INTJs are able to live by glaring contradictions that nonetheless make perfect sense – at least from a purely rational perspective. For example, INTJs are simultaneously the most starry-eyed idealists and the bitterest of cynics, a seemingly impossible conflict. But this is because INTJ types tend to believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible, while at the same time they believe that people are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve those fantastic results. Yet that cynical view of reality is unlikely to stop an interested INTJ from achieving a result they believe to be relevant.” (copied from 16 Personalities * com)

    And for reference, I am a physician. I learned long ago that humans are not immune to bad things happening at any time. I can face random acts of bad things happening. In fact when I was 30 years old and came down with Type I diabetes I went through the Kubler Ross Denial phase in literally 6 hours and moved on with my life.

    Parent Game still needs red pill truths. You can’t puke the red pill back up.
    And if the children are blue pill. They are still going to want cash and prizes for their affection.

    Twenty years from now, the money outlay to support my children won’t matter to me. It really won’t. Until that time: my wife and kids might be too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually be good members of my family. But I believe in my own ability to perform up to my standards. I believe in being a better man from now on.

  11. @zdr01dz

    You have to understand that this is an “unapologetically male space” – I usually never post here.. must be the lack of sleep from the recent baby. I read some, but I usually don’t read all the comments or even ever post a comment. My husband reads even less becasue of how little time he has. Is it depressing? yes. But it’s a male space where men can come and really hash out these things and feel all their feelings that they generally can’t show in society (even sometimes to their family – maybe especially their family).

    The truth about women scarying you? It is scary, there’s no doubt – I think even to “red pill” women it’s scary because its so ugly. Your wife sounds wonderful – she (I remember you posted before) loves sex with you – the kind that is extremely passionate (you said in your own words.. haha ironically the words my own hubby would use “a good pounding” omg). Anyway, she keeps herself in shape the way you like it – she sounds like she adores you. You found her young and locked her in, growing together and establishing your “frame” you said that only grew as you aged (as your SMV went up).

    She WOULD NOT DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU if she didn’t love you and respect you. The key is really the “respect” thing.

    To me, I trace it back biblically… Eve (women) were cursed with wanting to control their men. This is horrible, because it just makes it harder for ya’ll to maintain any kind of control – a woman (depending on her upbringing etc.) will be harder to manage or easier (obviously some are more stubborn against being “ruled over”)… but the “struggle” will ALWAYS be there. Therefore, if you “lose frame” which can happen from time to time, she then has the opportunity to see you as being able to control. ONCE she can control you, you instantly lose respect in her eyes.

    Once respect (true respect) is lost, you can tell by her ACTIONS – does she put you down in public, ridicule you, turn you down frequently for sex (for ridiculous reasons like that poor Spreadsheet Guy), etc. Any man feeling these little or not so little acts of disrespect gets angry and confused and feels desperate to gain back the respect that has been lost.

  12. Bravo to the commentorship of therationalmale.com! I teared up too many times to count. Let the walls finally come down. To the silent readership, let this be known—we are ALL human beings and we ALL must navigate the trials and tribulations of life. Everything else that ever crosses your path in the wider sea of popular media (blogs, TV, news, “seminars”, manosphere, game sites, government reports, public corporation annual reports, S&P financial analyses, etc, etc) is one giant exercise in OTHER humans trying to convince you that they are large and that you are small (ie, “game”). It is ALL a giant crock of shit. We are all small, in this world. And we are all large, in a different world. My only point is for you to NOT allow the framing within framing within framing of this world to beat down your spirit. Again, bravo to the commenters for your authenticity—truly amazing, and THANK YOU for sharing (sharing is what brings down the walls).

  13. @ Fromm

    “You have a responsibility as a parent, male, female, alien, whatever. You have a responsibility to raise a kid.”

    +1 to that.

    I didn’t ask to be born into this world. I didn’t ask for my parents to have me. I always thought it was extremely selfish when people say to their kids, “We wanted you.”

    My parents gave me that line a lot. Wanted me? How can you want someone that doesn’t exist yet? What you wanted was an idea. It was like buying a new fucking car or some other material object.

    I got a double hit with what I faced in psychiatric “care” for so many years. Once again in a situation where people are SUPPOSED to be responsible for your well-being, and completely fail to do their job.

    And then a TRIPLE hit when the topic of abuse came up and my parents denied everything. And they thought I was a liar. There was no way I could convince them that it was true. I even blew up and basically told my therapist to fuck off when he told me “memories aren’t facts” when I told him I distinctly remembered my dad sarcastically saying “Why don’t you go up to your room and cut yourself” — when I got upset about a confrontation I’d gotten in, and came home and vocalized that I was upset about it.

    I have the scar on my arm right here. I’m looking at it now. I KNOW that that’s how it got there — he said that, and then I went up to my room and took a razor blade and slashed my arm as hard as I could. He denied it and said “That never happened” and then my therapist told me that line about how memories aren’t facts.

    This is separate from TRP. But it ties into it too. How?

    The QUADRUPLE hit. So your parents aren’t there for emotional support. Psychiatry/psychology offers you no emotional support. And least of all would be women to provide support — the best way to attract and keep them is to hold your cards close to your chest, hide your emotions from them, divulge as little as possible and maintain as consistent a character as you possibly can, always staying on top of your Game and never letting them see any chinks in your armor.

    I’ve mentioned there being a “Red Pill” with psychiatry/psychology before. If you thought that it being impossible for women to genuinely emotionally support men was bad, see the same dynamic play out at in-patient and outpatient at the mental hospital, and in ‘therapy,’ and it’s even worse. That feeling of literally having no one in the entire world to go to when you’re at wit’s end — I refer to it as “the void.”

    I’ve had a psychotic episode before and it’s about a million times worse than the worst nightmare I’ve ever had. When you experience something like that in isolation it’s even worse. “What did I do to deserve this” might as well be a wisp of smoke spiraling out into nothing in the atmosphere.

    I’ve been in and out of mental hospitals and in various ‘therapies’ for over 13 years and I still have the same issues I’ve always had. If anything it’s only made it worse by realizing how alone I still am.

    Add on the prospect of never having a family — never getting married, never having children — and on top of that, never even being able to have a moment of respite with women, because they’re physiologically incapable of genuinely loving and supporting men unless they’re Alphas who don’t need their love and support —

    — it’s a zero-sum game.

    Not to mention “TRP” with religion. I was Christian for a long time and snapping out of that was traumatic for me. That’s a whole nother topic though and it’d be best not to get into that.

    Even one of the only solaces I have left — independently researching nutrition and taking care of my body — there’s a Red Pill with that too. I’m not going to live forever and our health fails us naturally as we age.

    The one plus side to this is I’m in an extreme minority. Between my past mental health issues, the environment I grew up in, combined with the current climate of feminism and being conditioned for the blue pill — it was a perfect storm that has basically left almost all of my memorable life void of genuine human contact. I would say my entire life has more or less been defined by my attempt to cope with loneliness and develop and build myself in spite of the fact that being alive has been borderline intolerable for about as long as I can remember.

    So if I can push through this, anyone can. Basically that’s the only reason I’m even alive right now. I decided a very long time ago that no matter how bad things got, someone somewhere in the world would have to be able to understand what I’m going through. Because I’m human. Whatever it is I’m experiencing isn’t unique. The only thing that got me through some of the worst times, and continues to, is imagining a future audience — I dissociate from myself when I’m at my worst, and imagine that I’m someone else, and then I realize that someone else in the world has to be experiencing the same thing I am.

    So if I survive and find a way to transform it into something even remotely positive, or can be an example to someone else — then it’s worth enduring it.

    Even though if I was given the choice, I wouldn’t endure it. I’d much rather just have a peaceful happy life. But it is what it is. So if I have to endure this then I would say the only purpose I’d see in it would be to help other people, whether that would be in writing or whatever.

    Now to bring this back on topic, this isn’t a tangent. This is what we’re ALL doing here.

    So I do agree with Steve there. I think it’s great that everyone’s sharing — good and bad. Being able to vent as much negativity as possible in a space where it’s inconsequential is very important. It’s all part of the process.

    Not that we SHOULD be being negative — it’s just that a lot of people here are, me included plenty of times, and I think that’s a very HEALTHY thing that’s also generally repressed in society. We have to hide enough. This being a male space on top of that, with the occasional exception — is very valuable.

    And even with the women that do comment here, they aren’t in our personal lives. The anonymity is fantastic. I haven’t told anyone that I read this website. It’s my personal secret. But that’s also what makes me feel free to say whatever I want here about my personal life and personal struggles, and connect with other people on here.

    I’ll say too that sharing personal stories is a big stumbling block for me. I always was put down for it — nobody cared, and they’d let me know they didn’t care.

    But I myself read through just about every comment on this blog and I always pay attention in particular to people’s personal stories. That’s been some of the most enlightening reading for me, as a supplement to the main material. That’s where the humanity is infused into it and the real relevance of what Rollo’s writing about here comes to life.

    Not to get maudlin. But in a culture so overtly repressive of men’s true natures, we need somewhere to go. This place is a good start.

    I always said when I was in the mental hospital, the other patients were the ones that helped me the most. Not the staff.

  14. “My shit is handled and if my daughter wants me back in her life she can apologize and treat me well or go fuck herself. I’m good either way because I know I did the right thing, and ultimately that’s all a man has in this world.”

    Glenn, I am praying for you, brother, personally. I believe that I’ve read previous comments of yours to the effect that you don’t believe in that (totally fine with me), but I do (simpleton that I am). I am praying for your pain to be reconciled inside of you, for what’s that’s worth. (To assuage your concerns about mumbo-jumbo, I pray for a lot of things, so this is not a special instance.)

    Here is what is uniquely new to my life, directly attributable to this thread on Rollo’s site: I am going to begin praying WAY more, for WAY more people, including myself. Whether or not that helps anything, is not up to me. But it can’t hurt, and it’s no big shakes for me to do it… I should do it more, and I’m going to begin doing just that, as of now.

    There are SO many people who need prayer, myself included. So, I’m just going to start doing it. Don’t know why I didn’t do it before, really. My prayer tonight is that pain be lifted from where it needs to be lifted from. That’s it.

  15. @ Steve – While I appreciate the sentiment, don’t pray for me. I’m good with my daughter. You see, I deal with reality and here’s the reality of it. My daughter is an ungrateful, spoiled, nasty cunt towards me. I react accordingly. She’s an adult (now 26) and made these choices as an adult.

    I saw a psychologist who specializes in parental alienation and deals with many non-custodial Dad’s like me. Men who have been dedicated fathers and met all their responsibilities (unlike the loathesome Minter), who find themselves with an adult child who treats them like shit.

    Like most divorced, but involved, Dad’s, I mistakenly thought that when she became an adult it would get better. For years I ignored the slights, the attitude, and how visitation became more and more difficult to schedule (due to her and her mom). I figured once she was out of the house, our relationship would improve since we did get along well for the most part and were still close in ways – that’s what I thought. And when she was little, up till she was maybe 13, she was “Daddy’s little girl” and we were super close and she was very loving. I figured that would amount to something in her adult years.

    Nope. Like many non-custodial Dad’s, I was excised as a father figure and my daughter had to face a choice. Treat the new guy like Dad (and the whole world and her mom and her husband were screaming for her to do that) or have a Dad who isn’t there most of the time. It’s not much of a choice at all.

    But she doesn’t need to be nasty to me about it. That’s what’s on her. I’m actually ashamed of her for not having the class to treat me civilly. I have an “ex-stepmother” who my Dad married when I was 12. They divorced when I was 15 and I lived with her till I was 18 cuz my Dad was a nutter. She has always tried to play the part of being my Mom, but I don’t feel that way about her, yet I don’t intentionally hurt her. She actually was good to me in many ways (and an intolerable martyr too) and I choose to focus on the positive. I’m nice and civil to her and have been for my whole adult life.

    My daughter could at least do the same for me (and I did far more for her than my stepmom ever did for me). But no, because of this FI culture, she feels entitled to do treat me however she likes with no obligation or respect towards me – both of which I earned (some Dads like Minter don’t earn it). So while she didn’t get here on her own (none of us has), adults make choices. And she’s made hers. So fuck her. What I won’t do is kiss her ass anymore. What I won’t do is beg for her affections (did that for too long). I won’t debase myself in order to be close to her.

    I deserve better and won’t accept anything less than civility and respect. I know this pains some of you guys to hear this, and some of you think you see things that I don’t – trust me, you don’t. Most of you don’t even really understand how parental alienation works and are looking at this like a parent-child fight that has to be settled. It’s not. Here’s the most bitter truth I had to accept, one that the psychologist hammered into me. I cannot live in “hope” that someday she’ll come running back. She’s unlikely to do that (because of parental alienation – we didn’t just have some fight guys) and even if she has a moment of clarity after she has a kid or two, we’ll still never be close. I’ve lost all that. It’s gone.

    So what am I to do? Mope around? Keep “trying” while I’m shit on? Have a hole in my heart so big that I can’t function? I was totally depressed about this for a while. It was devastating to me. But at a certain point I had to see that I still deserved to be happy, that I was more than just a father. That this wasn’t my “failure”, it was a symptom of a much larger problem that I had no control over. If you had asked anyone who knew me and my daughter when she was young if we would someday be estranged, they would have laughed at you. My home was littered with pictures of her. All my friends were used to hearing me talk about her all the time and I always made the effort to see her as much as I was allowed to. In fact, when younger, we were unusually close, people would comment on how cool our relationship was.

    So, don’t waste your prayers on me. If you want to pray for my daughter, fine. But really, I’ve moved on. And in way, even this has been growth to me. As a Blue Pill guy I saw way too much of my own value given be being a father. My ego and identity was far too invested in it all. I’m much more than a father and my life is more important than that. I know, it sounds like heresy – consider where that sentiment comes from inside you.

    The Red Pill allows me to see this clearly and to act in my interests instead of playing to some script society has handed me.

  16. @ Minter – Your crime was getting laid off in the ’08 crash? Really? You are going to lie to us even here? Mark, newsflash – men don’t lose their visitation rights due to failure to pay child support. You could have seen and spent time with your kids no matter what the support situation. So first off, stop lying to us and perhaps yourself. If you stopped seeing your children and attempting to be some kind of father, that is all on you.

    As for not getting work, that’s also your choice. At a certain point after ’08, I was desperate and hustling just to keep the lights on as I was also struck with illness at the same time and didn’t work for a while (I have great luck in life). I could not find a job (my industry was a desert for 2 years after the crash) so I started to do consulting gigs, picking up whatever income I could. At one point, I was about to go tits up and took a job on the weekends baking in a bakery. It gave me 1,000/mo more in income per month which allowed me to keep my life going while I started my business. It meant showing up for work at 3:30 am on Fri, Sat and Sunday after working my ass of in my own business all week. I did this for 14 months. It was grinding, hard and also ego deflating and embarrassing. I hadn’t “punched a clock” since I was a 21 yrs old. And oh yeah, I will do low six figures with my consulting business this year because I just keep at it. Funny how hard work pays off over time.

    I did what I had to. Did you, Mark? Did you deal with your financial responsibilities like they were a “have to”? No, I sense you blew it all off.

    Funniest part of your commentary? Claiming you are the most well read person on this forum (meet Jf12…). Wow, perhaps your kids are better off without you in their lives. And as for how your son treats you, have you asked yourself this? Why in the fuck would he want to be close to you after you abandoned him? Just a thought…

  17. You are correct in that it is extremely difficult to impart red-pill knowledge to a son post-divorce, particularly if he lives in a different state / city. I am 41 now, and began unplugging from an extreme blue pill life at the age of 33. The process took 4 long and painful years. It did not help that my ex has Histrionic personality disorder. Let me tell you, there is no better form of self-flagellation than a hardcore beta personality latching to an axis II cluster B PD girl at an early age.

    Long story short, I had 3 children, the oldest a son who was about to start middle school when I left. Oddly enough, my relationship with my girls remained well intact from the beginning, though they were younger and had little memory of me as a blue pill father. My son, on the other hand, had the misfortune of being very cognitively and emotionally aware of things during my transition, which was very tumultuous. I believe the challenges of unplugging around a male child are two-fold. First, as stated in your post, the feminine influence on his life is already generally the dominant one and has set his tendencies from an early age. Second, because of his early conditioning, seeing you begin to express masculine power can be very traumatic (especially early on in unplugging, where masculine emotion can come in fits more like Tourette’s syndrome than anything else!).

    My suggestion is to try and find or form at least one masculine hobby that allows you to share at least a small amount of time with your son away from any blue pill influence. For me, it was hunting. At least once a year I take my son deer hunting deep in the mountains. There the only conversation is between the two of us. He must build fires, hike in the dark, overcoming the fear of unknown sounds and coyotes howling in the distance. In fact, this week is often the only meaningful influence I feel I have right now. He still goes home to the matrix and largely plugs himself back in immediately. But at least I am able to slowly teach him the vernacular of red pill bit by bit.

  18. Glenn,

    Got “counselor” in my job title and have worked with the best and worst in people for nearly 40 years. After reading your posts, I see a couple of things from you that could be causing some issues: It seems you want your daughter to now respond to you as “daddy, the parent” with all the childhood aspects of that term, including a demand for respect, absolute authority and control, and dare I say, fear of adverse consequences? Second, you seem to demand things , rather than let them flow from an adult relationship. I also detect a rather stiff neck on your part. Can you be humorously self-deprecating about yourself and how you’ve been treated all these years, around her? Or is it “I’m the Dad” all the time?

    You’re well beyond that phase of both of your lives. Its time for friendship, not parenting. I’ll bet you don’t treat your friends as demandingly as you treat your daughter when you’re with her. Find a common interest from long ago or a recent interest and work on that together as “friends”. Don’t demand anything behaviorly, particularly respect or gratitude, as you’ll receive neither upon demand, just let things flow around that common interest.

    She like to ride horses? Go watch and learn about the damned smelly critters and how they are controlled by humans, then talk to her as the expert–her, not you! She like biking? Same thing. Foods or drink? Same. My daughter is a “foodie”, we discuss good restaurants and food. One son is a beer afficianado, another enjoys fine wines, I enhance my knowledge of all those things so I can discuss, teach and more importantly, be taught by them. They all call me by my first name or by the name of a goofy cartoon character and we all laugh about it. We’re now friends first, not parent and child. (I know to some that can be a shock. I’ve had other adult friends express great surprise at the ration of crap that my kids give me and how I can take that. Deal with it, I say.)

    Find out what you now have in common or develop a commonality and learn togethter, as co-equals and adults, to enjoy the finer points of your shared interests. The respect and a closeness will flow from that. People love to teach others about things they enjoy, give her the chance to teach you about the things she enjoys as an adult, not as “daddy’s little girl”. You spend time like that, the respect will return. And ease into it, don’t demand, don’t rush, go as fast as she wants, not as you want. Patience is a virtue.
    You’ve got the wisdom to unstiffen that neck!

  19. @ GWADFT

    Thanks. Although I see it as a matter of necessity more than any kind of nobility on my part — having almost killed myself a number of times, obviously I never succeeded, and my heaviest burden and what I’ve been racking my brain over for the longest time is how to focus my thoughts into a book that could help people. There’s so much, I just don’t know how to focus it enough so it would be clear and coherent instead of a jumbled mess.

    A lot of times I imagine myself on my death bed and asking myself what I’d be most at peace with, in terms of what I’ve accomplished in my life. I love doing a lot of different things but writing a book that could reach a lot of people always comes back as just about the #1 thing I can think of.

    I’ve learned a lot reading here. The themes of what I want to write about are very diverse, but I think above all it would have to do with sexual isolation/deprivation. I don’t think I’d use the term “incel” due to the stigma attached to it. Dissecting as much as possible about that topic — which I’ve never seen anyone else do. There are no books that I’m aware of or really anything of significance written about them.

    Rollo’s work and a lot of the rest of the ‘sphere are great for OVERCOMING these issues. But as I mentioned earlier, that’s all about intergender dynamics — my main focus is intrapersonal dynamics that result of intergender dynamics, and the lack thereof.

    Especially since there are a lot of guys like me that are ‘late to the game’ and even though they’re learning about Game and TRP and hopefully making some improvements, coming from an ‘incel’ background, they have some unique problems to face.

    Just about everything I’ve read about incels online is just complaining, and reinforcing the pain of having no sex in your life. My goal would be to acknowledge the pain but to provide some kind of lucidity for dealing with it. Drag the pain/hurt out of the darkness with the intent of shedding some light on it, so it doesn’t seem so overwhelming.

    The little I have read about sexual deprivation — just Googling “incel” will bring up just about all there is that’s written on the topic — is negative and destructive. And that’s coming from the point of view of someone who’s still a virgin and has had some sexual experience, just enough to know what it’s like and understand what it’s like to feel desired by and connected to someone — but also more than enough lack of it to understand the insane amount of frustration that comes with seeing the days come and go wondering if you’re ever going to have sex, or ever going to have any kind of sexual experience with anyone ever again.

    I have to laser-focus on a thesis, and I think that would be it. Sexual deprivation, all the implications of it, the things that few people experience and even fewer people want to talk about — and writing about it in a way that would not just give people something to relate to, but some kind of hope for getting out of it.

    The only setback is I feel like I have to get out of it myself first. To some extent, anyway. And to some extent I have with the couple hookups I’ve had.

    I’m also unsure about catering specifically to men as my audience. That is my experience, after all. I wonder if I should reference TRP or anything about it. It’s a lot to think about. TRP certainly comes into play but I don’t know if mentioning it would be necessary or not.

    Anyway, I’ve learned and continue to learn a lot here. But I think I have an immense amount to contribute as far as the intrapersonal side goes, which I haven’t seen anyone else do in writing to anywhere near the degree I’d like to see it.

    A lot to think about. But I continue to grow and evolve, especially as I keep up with this blog, and all the comments on it. I’ve just been feeling a more nagging sense of responsibility lately to write something like Rollo has, but from an intrapersonal point of view. Directed at a male audience and from a male-primary point of view, especially, I haven’t seen anything else like that.

    As far as Myers Briggs goes I always got INFP — for years — although I got ENFJ more recently. I did score INFJ and ENFP a couple times in the past but out of the maybe 30 times I’ve taken the test I got INFP probably 99% of the time. So the whole intrapersonal emotional thing is kind of my forte, which is why I feel compelled to write a book about it, especially after realizing that not everyone thinks the way I do, or has had anywhere near the amount of time to process the thoughts about these things like I have.

    If I could condense my thoughts and experiences in a way that would be universally relatable to people struggling with the similar issue of sexual deprivation that I’ve had, there’s a good chance it could reach a lot of people who otherwise would have no way to put words to their experiences.

    I’m torn between just wanting to save myself, especially after everything I’ve been through, and forgetting the world, and the idea that by going through with writing a book on this topic I’ll be saving myself without forgetting the rest of the world, and maybe it’ll help integrate me more fully into it.

    The thing that torments me the most is feeling like I’ve been a POW of sexual deprivation. And even if I was the only guy in the world to find a “unicorn” and live happily ever after, even if I achieved that impossible ideal — I think I’d still feel tormented knowing that there were other people just like me back in the POW camp that needed my help and I just left them behind and pretended that they didn’t exist anymore. It was very painful for me to hear about the whole Eliot Roger thing and reading through his manifesto because I felt like I could relate to it so much — I just had the internal and external resources to somehow pull myself out of it and not go down the rabbit hole like he did.

    And I wonder if by sharing my experiences I could help prevent even just one guy like that from doing something like that in the future. When people feel they have no one to relate to, it’s easy to believe you’re a “devil” or a “monster” and your humanity just gradually slips away from you. I’ve been there myself. And that’s not a fun edge to teeter on, but I don’t know anyone else who’s teetered on that edge and actually wrote about it.

    It’s a fine line between feeling like I’m sacrificing myself vs. fulfilling myself and embracing one of the many purposes I feel like I could have in life.

    That being said, I’ve always shared things online, and in that way I’ve already contributed a lot — as has everyone else commenting here, for example. So I don’t also want to get too grandiose and underestimate the power of sharing online, even if it’s not in an organized format.

    But even running this blog, Rollo’s written a book and is working on publishing another one. So that says a lot about reaching as many people as you can. I’ll have to think about this.

    1. @ Softie – Yo, focus on yourself and your life before writing that book. It will have a much happier ending. While I’m overly analytical myself, I figured out that the RP is an inside job, first and foremost. It starts with developing a profound and honest relationship with reality. And reality is where our lives occur, not in books or on websites. I’ve written two books and have an editing credit on a third, so I know what it’s like to “have to write a book” – go for it. But first things first. I want to see you turning down an 8 because she’s too much of a pain in the ass before you write a word, okay?

      Great line of thought though, thanks.The BP, FI informed world has profound effects on men’s psyches. And it think guys like us, with damage, can be be mawled by the troubles it brings us.

  20. Whenever I talk to someone about relationship/family issues who is beta, I ask a probing question. The conversations have gone something like the following:
    Me: “Hey, have you seen the movie The Matrix?
    Beta: “Yeah, I’ve seen it.” (if he hasn’t seen it, I ask him to watch it and tell me if he’d take the blue pill or the red pill.)
    Me: “Well, would you take the red pill like Neo or take the blue pill like Cypher and continue enjoying the fake steak.”
    Beta: “I’d take the red pill.
    Me: “Well, there’s a red pill for relationships too, so I’ll send you some URLs.”

    If the beta says he’ll take the blue pill, I just leave him alone.

    As for my young kids, I always make it a point to say thank you for our meals at night. My prayer is, “Thank you for this food. Some kids won’t have any food tonight so we’re fortunate. And thank you for our family. Some people don’t have family either.” I’m trying to show them how lucky they are to have an intact family that can eat together. I also remind them that Daddy has to work a lot of hours and if I didn’t, we would not be able to eat or buy toys and clothes. If you don’t remind them of this, the women in your life sure as hell won’t. And I tell them I love them and are proud of them all the time so they can never think I don’t.

    @Glenn, one hell of a story. Keep updating us.

  21. @ Glenn

    This is what my gut’s been telling me too.

    It’s been a rocky road lately but I’m coming back, and developing more skills. I’m getting very good; I just have to get myself out there and get the exposure. The trade I’m in is pretty esoteric, and on top of that, I’ve built my own tools that are trade secrets and put me at a tremendous advantage over everyone else. I just haven’t put myself out there yet. I have business cards and I’ve handed them out to everyone I’ve done work for though, and continue to do so when I get anything in.

    You don’t get rich doing this kind of work but I could easily be doubling or tripling what I’m making at my job now (minimum wage). It’s going to take time to build up a reputation and get more work in but having the skills and experience is priority one. I also have not been getting a whole lot of hours at my current job and I could easily keep that job while doing this work on top of it.

    Is it my passion? It’s one of them. There’s another skill I want to build up and get that going too. The nice thing would be that running my own business, and it being a business centered on case-by-case commissioned skilled labor, I could take on as much or as little as I want.

    The big thing with that would be having independence. Being able to generate an income for myself doing something I like doing. Ideally I would also work from home too, which would be a big plus.

    My friend said he’d hire me. He’s said that before so I don’t know if I believe him. But that would be the best case scenario. I love working with him, and he also has the best reputation around. So having that on my resume would help me a lot for getting future work.

    But all that stuff has nothing to do with my passion for ‘intrapersonal dynamics’, for lack of a better word. But at the same time, that’s okay. It’s like a vacation for me. It gets me out of my head and gives me something mechanical to worry about instead of something abstract that has no clear solution.

    I also don’t want to isolate myself — I’d love to get more work but getting some action is definitely another priority at the top of the list. Speaking of sexual deprivation, that’s another area I’d like to address if I ever write about it — denial.

    Sexual deprivation is like a beast lurking in the shadows. You can have very good days and feel like you’re on cloud nine. But in a day or a week or whenever, it sneaks up on you and grabs you. It doesn’t mean you didn’t genuinely have fun, or that you can’t enjoy yourself without having sex — but if it isn’t straightened out, and you act like it doesn’t exist….things can get ugly very quick, and a lot of times it’s like a switch snapping on. One second you’re fine and the next you’re overwhelmed, and you didn’t see it coming.

    I have a very bad habit of coping with it like that. I need to get it through my head that sex IS a priority, and admit that I’m not happy without it. I’m almost constantly on auto-pilot denial these days and just try to block it out of my mind. The ‘episodes’ I have that keep recurring are a huge red flag that that might not be the best strategy.

    Anyway, yeah — putting myself first is the key. You mentioned having compassion for myself in the other post (if you dig back there btw I did put my e-mail there). I don’t have it for myself, and I need to work on that.

    I understand these things intellectually well enough to write about them, and I’ve applied them to my life — but I haven’t applied them enough to fully be on the other side yet. I won’t write off writing a book; but I also need to realize it’s okay to wait and to gain more knowledge and experience before diving headfirst into it. Maybe what I’d want to write about will become clearer indirectly by focusing on my own life.

    The habit of self-sacrifice and putting others first, after all, is mostly what got me into this hell in the first place. That’s been the golden thread all along, the common pattern.

  22. @ softie – I missed the email, sorry, have had a hectic week. Will go find and reach out. Great post. Particularly the denial piece. You might recall I’ve mentioned “keeping two sets of books” here, and of course that’s how one maintains denial. Sexual frustration and tension will creep up on a guy – hell, it may explain the entire MGTOW movement…

  23. @Steve: THANK YOU for sharing (sharing is what brings down the walls)…I am going to begin praying WAY more.

    Try Dalrock bro, but even there this is thin gruel. You post like a Care Bear. Sharing is caring? Like double hellfire it is. Plus Glenn is not sharing willingly. We dragged this story out of him over many posts.

    @Glenn: I have seen this alienation of affection thing as a legal investigator putting together high end divorce cases a bunch of times and it is most definitely a real thing. The courts refuse to prevent it and the custodial parent poisons the child’s mind. They undermine the non-custodial dad and float “adoption” and us being a “family” on trips to Disneyland with the new dad (aka mom’s new fuck buddy of the month). They criticize the “deadbeat.” If he is paying half his income in child support and working 90 hours a week he is a “deadbeat.” It really is the death of a thousand cuts.

    The societal decision we took on giving default custody to the mom is the final nail in the coffin of Western civilization.

    All that said, Glenn, fuck her but unless your MGTOW I wouldn’t close myself to reconciliation with your daughter. All you have described is a normal woman. AWALT. The truth is your daughter doesn’t owe you anything for those years of support. You know that women routinely divorce providers who busted their ass for decades the SECOND he loses his job. So if wives do it all the time, would you expect a daughter to be more loyal? Didn’t think so. Solopsistic, Disloyal, Lacking Honor, Hypergamous, Duplicitous. AWALT.

  24. Wow, this post hurts. This is basically me. Discovering red pill *after* getting divorced (with 2 kids who are my world) is hell. I need to write Rollo a longer message when I get a few minutes.

    Luckily for me, my two very young kids have me in their life and are doing great and adore me, for now (but have not gotten to the teen years yet). It’s a fight every day to be in my kids’ lives and to support their mother and protect them from their mother’s ignorance, to the total detriment of my having any chance at a sex life (paying three times the guidelines on child support, for example).

    1. That’s an angle I hadn’t considered – women’s constant provisioning requirement is a form of indirect sexual containment of a previously parentally invested mate.

      Interesting.

  25. @Rollo, of course it is. I could write my own book. It’s been six years since my separation (she moved out) and I have paid about $300,000 in after-tax dollars as “child support” (not tax deductible), which is really “shadow alimony.” Google it. A well known problem in the divorce law field.

    In my state and all states today, the divorce laws are indeed “gender neutral,” both in terms of “custody” and “visitation” and child support/alimony. The real-world problem–and I’ve commented on this at length over at Heartiste–is when you have a truly caring father and a mother with no education or willingness to earn any kind of real income. The man is between a rock and a hard place. In my case I essentially pay the rent for my ex wife’s luxury apartment ($2500 a month), because I want my kids living in a good area and going to good schools, and then pay what my child support should be ($2000 more) (I earn $150,000 a year). Then I do things like pay an extra $500 for birthday parties, $3,000 a year for ballet classes, buy them clothes and shoes and toys directly when they are with me.

    This is not “buying my kids’ love.” They are actually well educated (by me) about how money does not grow on trees and how daddy has to work to pay for all of this. They know I’m not happy about the divorce. You are not supposed to talk bad about the ex, but I refuse to let them grow up thinking I’m the stereotypical man who abandoned the family for a younger woman. In fact it’s literally the opposite. I have turned down many opportunities with hot young women the past six years, including one who wanted to marry me, because I have my kids every weekend and that comes first.

    Of course it is (what you said.). I could *easily* have a 28 year old hottie new LTR or wife–I know that for a fact whether anyone wants to believe this anonymous internet comment or not. I literally pay, as GBFM used to say, past, present and future dollars for past (not very satisfying) use of my ex wife’s “sex.” I pay for a wife right now without any of the benefits. I give her half my take home pay. I drive an 8 year old beta car when I could have bought a lambo just with the money I’ve used on her rent the past 6 years.

    Just last weekend I had a true HB8 who called me and invited me out on a Saturday night. I declined because I”m not going to give up one of my two nights and mornings with my kids. That happens constantly. I have to apply game and get women going on on week nights–when both she and I have work the next day. That alone is a cock block meaning I need to up my game and (that’s not even the problem) be willing to be dead tired at work the next day if I want to have a “fun” night of sex.

    I don’t want to get a woman with beta game anyway, but this is the world we live in and even after learning some game and being able to fake alpha much of the time….like, dude, I drive a POS car and live in a cool apartment with a view, but it’s renting…. and there is the bitterness and worry over my kids.

    My ex wife (except for giving me two beautiful kids) absolutely wrecked my life from age 27 until now (almost 40). Married her at 28 before I had even approached my peak, had been with 10 girls the prior 2 years even before knowing anything about red pill, was just getting warmed up, married her because I felt sorry for her and she was sweet….. bam. I’ve had barely any sex from the age of 30-40 and I’m a 8 and was greater beta/lower alpha even before discovering blogs like heartiste and rational male.

    As a married guy you cannot imagine life as a divorced with kids guy who discovered red pill after the divorce. I respect your writing and intellect greatly, so not attacking you, but I’m surprised you’d say you had not thought of that.

    I could explain better and write 50 more pages, but I’ll stop here…

    but as to your comment. yeah. imagine yourself with $9,000 a month in real take home pay (from working hard all week) and you give $4500 to your ex wife as shadow alimony for the good of your kids while driving a POS car that’s 8 years old (paid off) when you work in an industry where your peers all drive S class mercedes or land rovers, you rent when your career is badass in that I should be owning (have owned 3 times in my life) with mortgage and equity.

    the divorce absolutely destroyed any chance at a good adult sex life. despite that I do have game and have gotten laid and found a really good woman who wanted to marry me despite knowing all of this.

    but my ex wife has literally taken my life from the age of 29 until 40. and never so much as a “thank you” from her. I have thanked her for giving me great kids.

  26. tldr version: despite what the left wants to say, women and men are not equal, of course, and if your ex wife is not a lawyer or other high earner yourself, then your statement applies. total disaster of an economic situation. a good father will do whatever it takes for his kids who he loves. they came out of my balls, did not ask to be born, and I will do whatever it takes to protect them, even if it means paying my ex 3 times the child support guidelines as “shadow alimony” that is seen by the IRS as a “voluntary gift” (not tax deductible), and having a very hard time having a social life of my own, even though I’m a young, healthy good looking man who always had some game, can get women, and have needs, as a man.

  27. @anon

    say you continue the expenditure of time and money, including greatly assisting in paying for college, and then after all that the new college grad goes “I don’t owe you anything”. What would you guess would be your reaction?

  28. There comes a time when children need to grow up. To face that parents are just human. When my Dad apologized and changed (as much as he could) I forgave him. He did he best he could with the handicaps he was given. It took me until age 40 to get that. It took him until I was 50 to make amends as best as he could. Now that he is gone I’m glad. There was a hole in my soul until we reconciled. The fm still has several from her parents never getting it.

  29. @redlight yeah I would be beyond devastated. I read the comment above from someone in that situation who reminded me of me (was it you?) — the daughters loved him when they were still young. That’s where I am NOW and I cannot imagine a situation where my daughters don’t love and appreciate me. If that happens to me through no fault of my own, because of my wife poisoning them or whatever… there is no telling what I would do.

    I’m devastated and overwhelmed even now, as my former fiance who loved me and pities me could tell you. In fact, I’m in the process of seeing about talking to a psychiatrist. But what sucks about that is, the CH and RM view of the world is correct, I’m unplugged now and see the truth, and all a psych can do is drug me up to sedate me with tranquilizers and make me numb to reality.

    One thing I”m considering is purposefully seeking out a blue pill female psychiatrist and going in there just to argue with her re: red pill concepts and YKW (of course you know she will be YKW)

  30. Sorry for so many comments but let me add something I know will be new to most of you. Contrary to so many and to the stereotype, my ex wife not only has not had a string of new fuck buddies, she has not had even ONE date with a new man in the six years since we separated. This is not my wishful thinking; it’s the absolute truth. Now, she was always kind of a cold fish, not that into sex (very rare for a woman), and she has me giving her $5,000 a month (she does not pay taxes on it), so one factor is she does not need a new man for provisioning like so many single moms do.

    But point being, I’m still miserable EVEN THOUGH I have not suffered like so many other men the indignity of a new man being there with my kids, being the new dad, possibly abusing them. My greatest problem is my ex wife’s poor mother, who lives with them in the apartment for which I pay approximately 70% of the time. (She shuffles back and forth between my ex wife’s apartment [which I pay for] and my ex’s sister and her husband’s house in another state.)

    But to Rollo’s latest comment, which I believe was directed to me: yeah, duh. GBFM called it “men pay past, present, and future dollars for past use of pussy.” If one is a good father and the ex wife either can’t or won’t earn any kind of real money, then the father is going to pay “shadow alimony” that is not tax deductible (IRS treats as voluntary gift) to ensure that the children live in the best home possible and have the most stability possible. In my case (and this gives me away if anyone who knows me reads this) I have my kids every weekend (not every other weekend) and for years I saw them every evening from 7:30-8:30 too (the first 4 years after the divorce), and even that is not enough. I am sad every morning I wake up not being able to have breakfast with my kids (when I purposely worked my way into a job that would otherwise allow that–I understand some men travel a lot, work on ships at sea, are truck drivers…. I have a normal 9-5 job that would let me be with my kids if I were allowed to have them), and every work day when I come home at 6 and do not get to experience my kids running to the door saying “daddy’s home!!!!” and then I still pay my ex over 50% of my take home pay, all while turning down HB8s 10 years younger than me who want to go out on a Saturday night, because that’s one of my two nights with my kids.

    Divorce with kids, if you care about your kids, is an unmitigated catastrophe.

    You married guys considering divorce, understand this: if you love your kids, you do NOT want to get divorced, even if your wife has ballooned up to 400 pounds.

    In fact, I have a good friend who got married around the time I did and his wife is about 350 and I know for a fact that this friend is still happier than I am–as he gets to tuck his kids in for bed every night as it should be.

  31. I’ve seen friends stick out the bad marriage until the kids grow up; I’ve seen other friends get divorced while the kids were still pre-teen. I think that the kids whose father is able to stick around in spite of all the crap the wife throws at him tend to do better than the kids whose father leaves (whether voluntary or pushed out). So for the fathers who grit their teeth and stay in for the kids, that is the potential payoff. No guarantee of course, YMMV wildly.

  32. Soften: “Sexual deprivation is like a beast lurking in the shadows. You can have very good days and feel like you’re on cloud nine. But in a day or a week or whenever, it sneaks up on you and grabs you. It doesn’t mean you didn’t genuinely have fun, or that you can’t enjoy yourself without having sex — but if it isn’t straightened out, and you act like it doesn’t exist….things can get ugly very quick, and a lot of times it’s like a switch snapping on. One second you’re fine and the next you’re overwhelmed, and you didn’t see it coming.”

    Thanks for writing this man. I’ve tended to be a pretty stable person in the past, but my emotions have been all highlowhighlow for the past while. I thought I was just still sad about losing the girl i care(d) about, as seen in my comment a few days back, but on reflection it was kinda like that even when we were still together but the sex was sporadic. I knew the deprivation was stressful I suppose, but I still may be in a bit of a BP perspective about how sex and the lack thereof affect men.

  33. Anon: “Married her at 28 before I had even approached my peak, had been with 10 girls the prior 2 years even before knowing anything about red pill, was just getting warmed up, married her because I felt sorry for her and she was sweet….. bam. ”

    This is a bit terrifying to me. I started dating the (aforementioned) girl at 27 or so, and I think part of what drove me to her is me feeling bad for her and wanting to fix things, and the fact that she is very sweet and kind in demeanor. I didn’t have your game, but definitely a lot of female interest I didn’t know how to capitalize on. That is probably why I’m not on the fast track to marriage now; wondering if that’s a weird blessing in disguise. Ha, strange.

    Do you mind elaborating about how you felt bad for her? Was that an issue down the road? With my girl it was dysthymia/depression and chronic pain, both I think from a dysfunctional upbringing. And yeah, I did my best but it made shit stressful to say the least…

  34. @foregetthesky, it should be terrifying.

    I don’t want to give too many details, but let’s just say she is from a very, very poor family background. But she was very very sweet when we met. I was “in love” with her, or I thought that I did not want to lose her and that she would make a good wife and mother. Also, she never pressured me to marry her. It was totally my idea. I was 100% blue pill beta at the time, my dad is as beta/blue pill as they come and never gave me *any* advice about women, at all, at all. Never even told me something easy like “don’t be shy–women love the class clown.” (man if I ever have a son, I will teach him so many things that my dad never taught me). I wanted to be a young father and I’m proud I did that. I’m the dad who actually climbs on the monkey bars with my kids at the park and can run and play sports with them. I was 30 when my first was born.

    Let me tell you, if you are living in the United States (or western Europe, from what I’ve read), feminism controls all and even your super sweet wife cannot be saved from being a woman–if you marry her, she *will* be unhappy/miserable after 5 to 7 years, sex life becomes once a month, and since our society no longer encourages marriage either through social mores or laws, a marriage is very very difficult to maintain. Her single friends will whisper the divorce fantasy in her ear. She will become a miserable bitch (if you stay beta–I think I could have changed things had I known of CH and RH back in 2003).

    Even an ugly or plain HB5 is still a woman, and they detest beta.

    I don’t know how long you’ve been a reader here, but read all the stuff on hypergamy doesn’t care… your poor little girl will NOT appreciate anything you’ve done for her. There is no equity. It is always “what have you done for me lately (or how have you made me feel lately?” and “lately” means “within the past week.” If you marry young, they do resent it because they have all of their single friends and societal pressure telling them that 38 is the new 28 and 28 is the new 18. They resent having their partying cock carousel years “taken from them” if they are married with kids by 28, even though that is biologically correct.

    disclaimer: sounds like you are talking about a past relationship. I could not find whatever past comment to which you are referring re: your particular situation.

    And yes her issues were an issue down the road, the main one being that HER parents had suffered a nasty divorce and her mom is crazy.

    If I ever marry again, it is an absolute prerequisite that the woman’s parents are still together, as mine are.

    People can overcome their upbringing, but I’d say you start out with 80% chance of being like your parents re: whether you get divorced or stay married, and it takes two to tango. If either partner has divorced parents, there will be a divorce. This is my unscientific opinion based on observation.

  35. @ forgethesky

    I think part of the problem is the FEMINIZED “esoteric significance” of sex that Blue Pill guys adhere to.

    Not the biological significance. Not a genuine curiosity in what the actual biological relevance of it is (like my curiosity about it) — but a belief that there are “soul mates” and that sex is a vaguely defined “mystical” experience that’s as essential as food and water, etc.

    The FI message is that FEMINIZED sex is essential. The stuff they sell Blue Pill guys that they actually don’t want to fuck.

    A lot of ‘sexual frustration’ can be a result of BELIEFS we have about sex. I would say it’s mostly, actually, Blue Pill beliefs about sex, and what it’s supposed to be, that accounts for a massive amount of the frustration in sexual frustration.

    From a Red Pill perspective, no “special girl” got away from you. There are plenty of fish in the sea. If it doesn’t work out with one girl you can find another and it can be just as good.

    Guys drive themselves INSANE with ONE-itis and thinking they let “the one” get away.

    Now is that a sexual problem, a problem of not having a sexual need met, or is it a Blue Pill problem, i.e. a mental disorder that is ultimately self-created and self-perpetuated, and it’s only real on a biological level because they BELIEVE that it’s real? That their imaginary need for sex with their “one” is, in fact, a need, instead of a fantasy that is actually counterproductive to their being happy and fulfilled for real?

    So you see…you can drive yourself nuts thinking you NEED SEX with…you guessed it….ONE GIRL. One SPECIFIC girl.

    You will drive yourself insane if you feel like there is only one girl in the world who can provide what you “need.” And trust me, I know, because I’ve had crippling ONE-itis more times than I can remember. And ALWAYS for girls that I never got ANY ACTION from AT ALL. Ever. Not even a kiss.

    Looking at sex more generally, like Rollo’s mentioned in “You Need Sex” — is much healthier.

    Sexual deprivation is something I am EXTREMELY familiar with, and have been tormented about for a very long time.

    But I’d say the worst part of it was the ONE-itis and OBSESSIONS with girls I saw as being “the one.” And ONLY wanting to have sex with them, and putting the blinders on and forgetting about every other girl.

    Now that I’ve had a little experience with a few different girls….I have some more perspective. I see sex as more of a “common” thing now.

    And funnily enough, it makes dealing with the frustration easier. Because now I can LET GO of the obsessions with this girl, or that girl — and I am seeing that there are way more opportunities out there.

    Even the less attractive girls — fuck it. I would much rather have sex with an HB5 than whack off. As long as it was a one night stand and I didn’t have to deal with them the next day. Heh. But for the record that goes for HB10s too. Where I am now I just want to be regularly meeting my need for sex without committing to any one girl or getting obsessed with any of them.

    I can remember being a teenager clearly…never did ANYTHING with any girls that whole long, lonely, hellish time. I’m talking as if I’m out of that hole, but keep in mind I’m only 25, and after the initial 9 year incel hell, I had a couple 5-day breaks, then another 4 year dry spell, and since then I fingered and made out with one girl, and got a blowjob from another, and that’s been it. New Year’s was the last time I got any and that was after 6-7 months of not getting any, and that 6-7 months before was after a 4 year dry spell….and before that was the 9 year spell, etc.

    But I am, oddly enough, identifying much less with that narrative now. I don’t feel like a loser anymore and even though I’m still a virgin, it’s weird to say it, but I don’t feel like it. My attitude has changed significantly.

    Anyway, I was obsessed with plenty of girls — “In love” with plenty. Spent so many nights masturbating about this girl or that girl wishing they were there having sex with me.

    But I had the blinders on. I only saw them. Now that I’m a lot more in tune with myself and emotionally healthier — a LOT of thanks to RM, a whole lot — yeah, I’m still sexually frustrated, but it isn’t the same in the absence of ONE-itis.

    ONE-itis takes sexual frustration to the levels of Dante’s Inferno. I just had some dirty conversation with some random girl online last night and it felt GREAT. There was some sexual chemistry and connection. Nothing’s going to come of it. But it just reminded me of how sex is a “common” need — I used to be so obsessed with specific girls, but now I’m basically open to anything.

    She was a girl and she was writing dirty things so I wrote some dirty things back and we made a little game of it for the night. It was fun. And it felt very restoring to me, especially having no strings attached.

    And it makes the sexual frustration much easier to deal with, because now there are so many more opportunities to deal with it. And in my experience, even if I’m not getting any sex, getting some sexual tension going with girls helps A LOT. Just talking to them and flirting and injecting some sexual comments here and there.

    Of course, I’m working on actually getting laid.

    But my point is that even if sex is a need, we can freak ourselves out by how we perceive the lack of it.

    A sexually frustrated BP guy with ONE-itis is MUCH, MUCH worse off than a sexually frustrated RP guy without ONE-itis. An RP guy who isn’t getting laid, but has overcome the mental hurdles of ONE-itis and the myths and lies of the FI, to the point of reclaiming his dignity and peace of mind —

    — even in the interim where he hasn’t figured out how to get laid, or get laid regularly, or spin plates, etc. — he is MUCH better off mentally and emotionally than the Blue Pill guy who is in the throes of ONE-itis and desperately clinging to the hope of realizing the “white picket fence” dream.

    I’ve been that guy. And for the record, the second girl I hooked up with was while I had ONE-itis to a disturbing degree for another girl. It actually scares me to think of how bad I had it for her.

    I see her pretty regularly now because she’s always around my friend (male friend), but it actually doesn’t bother me anymore. Not at all. I almost can’t even believe that I had ONE-itis for her. It’s unbelievable to me. I have moved onto bigger and better things (literally and figuratively — that girl that put out on New Year’s almost broke me in half by sitting on top of me…yikes….sorry honey but you tell me to “grow a pair” and you just bought yourself a lifetime ticket of denigration….heh)…….

    ….but yeah. Sexual frustration is sexual frustration. But throw Blue Pill thinking into the mix and you have something on par with a serious mental disorder. I know, because I’ve had those too.

    Seeing a LOT of girls as potential sexual partners, and having a laid back attitude about sex…..even if you’re not getting any, you’re opening yourself up to getting some, and it makes you feel more like you have OPTIONS. With Blue Pill thinking, self-defeat, self-flagellation, ONE-itis….you could be in the same situation of not having had sex for X amount of time….but who’s worse off?

    Blue Pill guy. Because he’s tormenting himself by telling himself stories about his sexual frustration, and what it means, and how he NEEDS to have sex with “The One” or it doesn’t count as sex, etc.

    Whereas Red Pill guy realizes he’s sexually frustrated, but if he’s like me and has panic disorder, etc. — it sucks, but he can deal with it, because he knows he’s not in a hopeless trap like he used to be with ONE-itis and all these stories about sex.

    I’m still anxious. But at least now I’m OPEN to the idea of having sex casually with girls. There are PLENTY that I like that I’d love to have sex with, none of whom I’d want to commit to.

    I’m seeing the light on the other side, and now I know it’s not the oncoming train I used to think it was. Our biological needs don’t change but life sure as hell feels a lot more tolerable when you start thinking rationally and calm down and stop beating yourself up with horror stories.

    I used to think Red Pill was so depressing….looking back, what was depressing was whacking off while fantasizing about whoever “The One” of the week was. Holy shit. THAT is depressing.

    It makes the worst truths of TRP look like a weekend vacation in Bermuda. So now that I’m making my way across the river to the other side….yes, there is hope, and I’m evidence of that. Unplugging is like being cured of a mental illness. I’ve had plenty of experience with that, as I mentioned before — and life is much better when those things are no longer controlling it. For sure.

  36. when that man is your own son how do you go about it?

    You have to lead by example – trying to tell someone something is an exercise in futility, they have to see it with their own eyes to start to wake up. I have a friend that after his marriage exploded, I invited him to join us for a weekend at one of our performances – figured he could do little stuff, but partake of the women afterwards to start to see how life and women really are. Since then he’s dusted off his guitar and started to play again and is actually pretty good – and since he’s started solo’ing the women line up. Now he’s banging out women younger than his youngest daughter and enjoying life again.

    His ex isn’t happy and constantly tries to shame him, as does his daughters but he’s enjoying life too much. Seeing the change in him from chump to man is good to see and shows and any man CAN embrace and take charge of his life and the women in it, when they want. Now that he’s in control, his daughters have stopped giving him grief and act like women should.

    I loved when they came with him and he spent the weekend with several women younger than they were each night and made it obvious that he was banging them out. At first they (his daughters) were outraged, and he told them to leave. They were flabbergasted – their father literally threw them out and told them not to come back till they could show some decorum. THAT had never happened to them before – they saw life was different, now they wait for some of his time and are grateful to get it. His ex came with them to one of the shows and I made sure that our camera guy got a photo of him with his ex and daughters on one side, and the two young women he was having that night on the other. Have it back in our rehearsal hall just so that he never forgets. The look on his ex’s face is priceless…

    That is what you have to do with your son – show him the nature of women. If you don’t have something convenient like I do, just take him to another country where women are plentiful and let him see and learn… He’ll take to it like a fish to water…

  37. Thanks Rollo. I read it but evidently needed to again. I went to a very strict Christian school and learned to demonize my sexuality except as a platonic ideal. Good thing my parents were rather more balanced or I might still be stuck there.

    Anon, thank you for your reply. I didn’t mean to make you hunt for my post, just didn’t want to tell the same mostly unremarkable story over and over. Yeah, it’s a past relationship, a few months ago. It was weird to me for a long time that two people could care a lot for each other and put effort in and it could still fall apart. Thought I could beat the world with kindness and temerity, lol. Rollo’s ‘hypergamy doesn’t care’ post was actually a pivotal to me seeing the non-negotiable reality of the situation.

    In retrospect the whole swinging in to help/save her was kinda co-dependant, really. So there’s that too.

    Like I wrote last comment, with more game I might be marrying this girl by now. It’s a sobering thing to think of what game but no solid masculine frame can do – things can still really blow up. I think that’s been the main purpose of a lot of Rollo’s more recent postings – game without proper frame is not only exhausting but futile. Suppose that’s actually the message in the very early post ‘dream girls and children with dynamite,’ when I think about it.

    Basically, hypergamy doesn’t care how much you were trying to help her. And kindness, though a good trait for a woman to have, does nothing to override it. The only solution that has a decent chance of working is game/frame (being your own mental point of origin). And even then, yeah, if her parents are unhappy/divorced that’s a serious red flag.

    Nothing new to you, I’m sure. I’m just summarizing to organize my thoughts I suppose.

    Major props to you taking care of your kids. The good relationship I have with my parents is something I’m very grateful for. It’s important work.

  38. @Softek,

    That was a quite apropos comment for me, actually. I’ve been on both sides of what you’re talking about – having options and feeling a pathological pull to ‘the one’ – just in a recent span, so I know what both feel like. Just last week I was all about building myself into the sort of person I’d like to be. I bought a car, negotiated successfully to buy a house, developed a plan for the future. Might not sound like much for the men here who have built multiple businesses, but it’s actually a big step for me – moving away from the sheltering family clan.

    I’m kinda down on myself right now, so I guess I’m just spilling everything. Storytime.

    I’ve stayed friends with the girl I had one-itis for. I do genuinely like her as a person and appreciate some things she’s done for me, but if I’m honest it’s probably mostly because I was subconsciously hoping I still had a chance to make things ‘right.’ And when I was feeling good about myself, advancing my goals, starting to spin some minor plates, etc, she showed that she pretty clearly still holds a bit of a torch for me. She’d smile, be all shy, blush, etc. This would give me an unhealthy hope. And when I was feeling low she’d be really guilty about making me sad, which made me feel close to her. So I suppose I wasn’t able to disconnect from her really, in spite of good redpill gains elsewhere. I would still be anxious about her new boyfriend, kinda in denial about it, jealous, shit like that.

    This weekend I hung out with her for an hour or two for the first time in a few weeks. She stepped away to change her shoes, leaving her phone on the table in front of me. Her boyfriend sent her a text; probably shouldn’t have read it, but it was just right there. It was kinda explicit, made it clear they were having sex. She had always told me that she was saving it for marriage (hahahaha), so we never actually had intercourse. Came close once or twice – she practically begged me to – but I got nervous each time and didn’t/couldn’t.

    (Be sure to respect woman’s verbal boundaries gents! Or else she won’t respect you!)

    I’d suspected of course in my more lucid, redpill moments the past months. But now I can’t rationalize it away any more.

    We had a decent time. She picked up on something being off at first, but then I found my balls back and pushed it from my mind. Chatted about stuff. When we talked about all the stuff I’m doing to make myself stronger and more independent, she seemed mostly interested in making sure I wasn’t just trying to get her back. I only realized this a bit later, girls can be sneaky as fuck how they get info from you.

    Anyways. Been kinda down ever since. That’s it. It’s done. My bluepill remnants can’t hide from that shit any more. I don’t know if the red pill journey is ever really done, but I’m hoping this is one of the last major cullings from my mind.

    Unluckily, I had to go to a party where she was later that evening. She was considerate enough not to bring her new boy. I was pretty cool the whole time there; somehow at the end she decided to go with me to the afterparty, but she felt really tired so I decided to bring her home instead. I was fairly buzzed; in front of her house she asked me a bunch of stuff about if I was ok, how I felt, didn’t I think I deserved some-one better (she may actually think I deserve someone better, she has low self-esteem) and the pressure broke, and I broke down in front of her. She was really sad and didn’t know what to do. I told her I didn’t really know what to say about it; I’d already said everything meaningful that I could. Basically, ‘You left me. I’m sad about it. Being sad about it doesn’t fix anything. And I didn’t want someone ‘better,’ I wanted you. That’s all.’ And I sent her out of my car.

    With her, I’m still beta. And I couldn’t seem to fix it. Easier, like Rollo says, to start fresh with your frame in place from the beginning. I went to a club and tried to dance. Not much happened; I mostly just observed how many girls seemed willing to dance with me and how, to a one, they didn’t because their wing-girls acted like parents and chaperones, to a one. Crazy. I also put my hand momentarily on a girl’s waist to see if she’d be down to dancing with me – common maneuver in loud clubs – and she spun around, started yelling and pushing me, something about how I might have had a chance if ‘in the first place, you…’

    I didn’t let her finish. Her aggression pissed me off. I grabbed her wrist and twisted it, quickly but gently, behind her back, making her face her friends again. Instant silence from her. Some white knights tried to yell, but she cut them off – ‘It’s okay.’ I just walked away.

    A few guys were fistbumping and highfiving me as I danced by myself the next few minutes.

    I’m not sure there’s a coherent point here, more a succession of them. I’m just dumping my experiences here as an alternative to ruminating on them in silence. I’m kinda just wiped. Maybe this will help some other reader, I dunno. Usually, though, I get in this depressed state before some RP breakthrough, so I have some hope for that.

  39. @Softek – it sounds like so many ideas – very good, writing anything, even small pieces like you’ve done somewhat here (I believe) would be helpful towards your eventual goal. You’re so young, you have so much time to figure it all out and work out the kinks….

    Some sage advice from Hemingway (a true man’s man):

    “Do not worry. You have always written before, and you will write now.”

    “There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter, and bleed.”

    “There is no use writing anything that has been written before unless you can beat it. What a writer in our time has to do is write what hasn’t been written before or beat dead men at what they have done.”

    “My temptation is always to write too much. I keep it under control so as not to have to cut out crap and re-write. Guys who think they are geniuses because they have never learned how to say no to a typewriter are a common phenomenon.”

    I just write short and cute things… this whole father post really got me thinking… so, http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/02/03/dads-sons-leaving-a-legacy-for-your-children/

  40. This thread has been helpful. I am a father. I have young sons. My problem, now, is not the boys. My problem is the inverse to the one discussed in this thread. How does one go about showing his own father the red pill? He suffers from the blue pill, but has kept the same wife for 40+ years. He comes from a time when you could be beta and still keep the house. I don’t even know if it is worth it, to show him. He is a fretful rabbit all day long, but the trama of ripping out 60+ years of psych training is no joke.

  41. I wanted to thank everyone that shared. Some of these stories really moved me and I wanted to thank you.

    I tried to put some replies together regarding my own Father, but I found it too difficult. Simply put, I met him once when I was 15 (29 now) and I came to the realization that he did not want to have anything to do with me.

    We could spend a lot of time analyzing why, but that’s not what matters. What matters is that I spent my life seeking to be loved. I think many men do. Blue Pill men seek it from women, not knowing its impossible. Red Pill men knowing the truth, spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to have purpose and letting go of that desire to be loved, or settling on an appropriate rational frame of mind for the current climate. Rollo always says that the Red Pill is hard thing to swallow and he is right, the hardest thing is coming to the realization that I can’t be loved in the way that I have always wanted to be.

    I do wonder though, is that what Fathers were meant for? I can imagine myself loving my son (if I have one) with steadfast devotion. Even if all manner of bad things happen, divorce, step-dads, FI brainwashing, losing all of my money, him hating my guts for whatever reason. I would continue to love him with steadfast devotion, why? Because I would know that he needs that from his Father, even if he doesn’t know it. I think of that as the solution, but perhaps I am being too idealistic.

    Anyhow, thanks again for all of your stories.

  42. dorsey, leave your father alone at this point. He’s close to 70 and still married to your mom? why would you tell him about red pill now? he might even be happy.

  43. I on the other hand have been telling my uber-beta dad about red pill and letting him know that I think it sucks that he never taught me a damned thing about women. Any alpha in me has been self taught.

    My dad didn’t have the internet and is married to his high school sweetheart (my mom), but how could he not learn some things just from living in this world? He left the house and went to work every day, saw women in the office.

    He never once gave me one bit of advice when he saw me struggling with major shyness and one-itus in high school, when I was a good looking guy and athlete.

    Just one thing–all he had to tell me was “don’t be shy.” Women are repulsed by shyness (beta) and love funny-confident-cocky class clowns. I spent a lot of time worrying about my hair in high school, which was parted to the side like Clark Kent, the way my mommy taught me. Worrying about my cowlick.

    Jesus fucking christ I got up super early every day for already-too-early high school to take a shower and blow dry my hair and use hair spray.

    My dad should have told me to fucking shave my fucking head and not give a fuck and to simply mack on all the girls. That’s what they wanted!!!!

    I had hot “study buddies,” one in particular (I taught her Algebra II and Geometry), but I was super friendzoned by my own doing. Took her on a traditional date. Was too shy. Wrote her a love letter professing my love. Uber beta sickness. I now know I could have literally HAD SEX with her at age 16!!!! She WANTED me to make a move; she’s not going to do it for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF my dad did not teach me anything!! My hot study buddy, BTW, ended up dating (fucking) a junior when we were seniors–a YOUNGER kid (who was funny alpha — stupid as fuck but alpha).

    If I ever have a son it will be EASY to ensure he is great with the girls. jesus.

    Despite all of this I was not a total loser. I had dates to homecoming and the prom. I got to play with my girlfriend’s boobies senior year and get handjobs.

    But I never even tried with the girls I really wanted, even though I had an “in” (track team).

    All my dad had to tell me was one little secret: girls don’t like shy/nice guys. Be confident and funny. Don’t give a flying fuck what you look like.

  44. @ anon

    I had hot “study buddies”

    My first date with my college gf was a study date. I had met her through a friend and his gf–my eventual gf was his gf’s sister. I wasn’t expecting anything since she had previously told me that she was madly in love with her bf back home and wanted to marry him but her parents didn’t approve of him because he was 10 years older. So when we were studying in lounge chairs in the library facing each other about fifteen feet apart, the girl kept looking over her textbook at me for about ten minutes. Finally I got off my butt and went over to ask her what she wanted. I didn’t say anything before she licked her lips, leaned towards me, and closed her eyes.

    That started eight months of daily, hour-long makeouts. I learned so much about women from her since I didn’t grow up with sisters. I didn’t realize that girls considered me very kissable until reflecting on this experience in the last year.

    My sophomore and junior year sexual experiences consisted of picking up girls at my all-boys boarding school dances where the girls were brought in on buses from other schools. Making out, playing with b00bies, and dropping panties. My senior year I returned to public school. I had a few dates, but I was always petrified of nuclear rejections. Didn’t go to prom. I did some Day Game at college.

    All my dad had to tell me was one little secret: girls don’t like shy/nice guys. Be confident and funny. Don’t give a flying fuck what you look like.

    Wish I had heard this. I’m autistic and it took a while for me to get a lot of social skills. Developmental thing for autists.

    My grandma told me, “Skirts are like buses. There’ll be a new one along in ten minutes.” Don’t get hung up if one doesn’t work out.

    My mom told me, “Play the field.” Great advice! Avoid Oneitis.

    Stephen Stills told me, “Love the one you’re with.” Emphasizes mom’s advice.

    Playboy taught me to ask even if the odds look long. That led to my loss of virginity. I just asked this HB9 friend to make love, lol, and she was DTF.

    Dad didn’t teach me anything about girls that I recall. Only saw him for six weeks once after I had hit puberty. He was concerned that I might be gay, lol.

  45. @theasdgamer:

    wish I had that grandmotherly advice, yeesh. Coulda used some breaking out of my stick-up-the-ass purity crap.

    I have an alpha father though, so that’s helped in the long run. Huh, when I think of it my younger brother may have too – he’s a natural, but it’s hard to learn from a younger brother until you get to an age where the age difference isn’t significant.

    Before that, you tend to look up to the older brother. My older brother is gay. Maybe that explains a lot, actually.

  46. @Glenn,

    Look man, still praying for you. I pray for me, too, so please don’t take it as anything too particular. Similar situation, different details.

    To be clear, NOT praying for what’s right, but merely for the lifting of pain… that’s the extent of the prayers… the lifting of pain. A better man would pray for more, but I’ve been down that path, too many times to count, so my prayers only extend so far, realistically… to relief of pain.

    “My ego and identity was far too invested in it all.”

    I hear that. That’s a whole other *BLOG* that Rollo could potentially start.

    “I know, it sounds like heresy – consider where that sentiment comes from inside you.”

    I know *exactly* where that sentiment comes from inside of me—that’s why I’m praying. It’s sobering to think of “where that sentiment comes from inside of me.”

    “The Red Pill allows me to see this clearly and to act in my interests instead of playing to some script society has handed me.”

    I live by no societal standard, but rather, a different standard—again, that’s why I’m praying.

    Anyway, look, you have a friend here, that’s it. Best wishes, man… with the relief of pain, and all.

    Think I’m going to now go lay on some ice, myself. Best to you.

  47. @bluepillprofessor ie Care Bear,

    Thank you for your “caring.”

    “Try Dalrock bro, but even there this is thin gruel. You post like a Care Bear.”
    Assuredly so, and you?

    “Sharing is caring? Like double hellfire it is. Plus Glenn is not sharing willingly.”

    That’s true. Perhaps he’s hurting. I have hurt my lower back in my life, to the point that I couldn’t even get off of the couch… and you?

    “We dragged this story out of him over many posts.”

    That’s true. But he’s here, working through his shit. And you?

    Look, man, I’m sure that you are perfect, but, perhaps, the rest of us are not. We all have our challenges—if that doesn’t apply to you, then, congratulations… not exactly sure why you’re here, bro.

  48. From my own personal experience (my parents being divorced) I’d say that your chances to reconcile with your son depend on how deep his liberal/blue pill conditioning is (I’m also assuming that the blame was unjustly put on your shoulders and you weren’t beating the living shit out of them). It may be outright impossible until he finds the red pill truth on his own (which may require him to get burned by women one way or another). Maybe you could somehow get him to read Rollo’s books and hope he will connect the dots by himself but again that depends on how much he belives the crap that the mainstream narrative feeds him.

    Also, even though the internet can be used to spread red pill knowledge it is also more than often used to reinforce blue pill bliefs. I’ve been on all kinds of sites and I’ve seen a lot of examples where all the blame goes to the father and the mother is not questioned even once.

  49. My work – if there be any – in the world of “red pill” seems to be reaching other fathers and I have a goodly bit of experience on this so I’d like to add a few notes to this one by Rollo.

    First – in all things in life – everything – from mundane workaday to “red pill”, I notice that the most important thing is this:

    Show up.

    Be physically present. A problem with “red pill” is at day end even if it comes with insights impossible otherwise, it still is 4 steps of 5 to an ideology and in that respect it shares the same weaknesses all ideologies share – people begin believing their own ideas over facts, they begin smelling their own farts and thinking its roses.

    Show up. No matter what “warfare” you believe is being waged against dads, no matter what “blue pill” sensitivities you think people have, at day end … guys, this is one of the most basic “alpha” lessons out there:

    … at day end – they will form their ideas around the PHYSICAL presence you IMPOSE upon them.

    So – for dads – it amounts to this:

    Show up. Every day.
    No kidding, every day.

    And the places where you think you will be least welcome, i.e.: the school, or kids’ sports or church other social context where you THINK she is burning the midnight oil to turn people against you …

    Show up. Children in tow. And you don’t have to do anything special – just parent your kids.

    The power of your presence will be so strong, and magnified so by the presence of you, together with your children who you are obviously responsible for and caring for NO MATTER WHAT ANY A–HOLE THINKS OF YOU … that will overwhelm all other things.

    It has amounted to this in my case: my ex did the whole kitchen sink of things we complain about in the manosphere I won’t list them all – but it was ALL of them – but one of them was she tried viciously to turn people against me at our place of worship and for six months it was working.

    Until it all came apart – because it was all her ideas, and emotions, and hateful words, which came up against me being present, and being present, and being present, and never conforming to what she said and never agreeing to be what she claimed I was – merely by making myself physically present. In the end and to this day, the whole thing backfired on her.

    People are out there who hate their dads. You can’t do anything about that because among other things: the world is not wont for a–hole dads. Don’t worry about them. Fight back with your presence. Show up.

    1. @ Bluedog – Showing up and being there is key. But what do you do when your ex moves an hour’s drive away? Not far enough to go to court over but too far to just do all those daily things that you can do when you live in the same town.

      This is what my ex did to me, and I didn’t even realize it. Moving to her town would have resulted in a 2.5 hour commute each way to work for me and all my work was in NYC so there was no moving to that town.

      The other challenge is when they become teens. Try showing up “every day” in your teen child’s life as a non-custodial parent. Good luck. They are trying to avoid their custodial parent as much as possible, you will fall a distant second.

      It sounds like your ex did overplay her hand, but many do not. In my case the alienation was done so subtly and gradually, I didn’t realize what was happening precisely until years later when my adult daughter was treating me like shit that got caught to her shoe. When we had been quite close while she was young.

      Consider visitation with a teen child as an example. With sports, are you going to take your child away from their teams for the weekend? And their friends? If you live 40 miles away, that’s the deal. Also, when my ex started to tell me that “it’s up to you to organize your visitation with Alice” when she became a teenager, I thought that it made sense. Fyi, it was only once I spoke to a psychologist who specializes in parental alienation that she explained that this is how many an ex-wife cuts Dad out of the equation. My daughter kept pushing our time together around, and I always felt like she shouldn’t have to suffer because her mom and I were divorced, so I compromised and gave up bits here and there.

      But the reality is that while I did see her regularly in her teen years, the visits were much shorter, and she rarely stayed over with me, agreed to go away for the weekend to see my family or go skiing as we had when she was younger. I made the huge mistake of writing this off to being a teenager. I felt that we had made a good foundation when she was young and while she was troublesome and not always respectful at times, I just wrote that off to typical teen life and that she and I would become closer once she didn’t live with mom anymore. I’d ask myself, “How many of my married friends are close to their teen daughters and spend a lot of one on one time with them?”

      This is how I helped shave my role of father down to a nub. My bottom line? Being the non-custodial parent will erode your parental relationship no matter what. If she remarries while the kids are younger than say, 14, you will be marginalized even more.

      The only solution is to take custody. Spike you ex with drugs and have her drug tested. Frame her for some sort of felony. Do anything you have to do to get those kids living under your roof most of the time. That is the only way to not be marginalized as a father.

  50. ” (the only reason to get married, remember?) ”

    What is this in reference to? I’ve said this to my wife before, that was the only reason I got married. To have kids. She didn’t appreciate it, but it is still the only motivation on balance.

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