Open Relationships

Functional_cuckoldry

During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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digireaper
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Hello Rollo and everybody here, I don’t mean to derail this thread but I’m a 27 year old guy from latin america who has been reading your blog for more than a year now, and it has really opened my eyes in many ways regarding the dynamics between the genders. You see I was a skinnyfat weakling beta brony with no drive to do anything. Since discovering the red pill I have been improving myself, I workout on a regular basis and although I am very far from being jacked, my body has improved a lot (for example, I was… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ reaper

In the end I managed to talk with 2 girls last night.

Excellent! You’re ahead of 90% of men. Did you talk to any men? Have you read the YaReally archive?

Dutchman
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@digireaper “Last night I went solo to a club. I barely go out to that kind of places, the times I did were in clubs of other countries with some cousins, so I was very anxious going alone. I went without some kind of gameplan. I just wanted to go there for a couple of hours and try to talk to some people and maybe some girls. In the end I managed to talk with 2 girls last night.” 2 more girls than you would have talked to if you stayed home. “The first woman was a 30-something colombian attorney,… Read more »

Andy
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“What I don’t understand at all is the divorce landscape and a woman at the point that she would leave if not for kids.”

@newly

Honestly, if I had to guess you might have a glimmer of hope there. She might be rationalizing that she’s staying for the kids but actually still want you to step up. I have a hard time believing a woman would stay “for the kids” these days. Hard to say for sure though.

Roused
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Culum, Thanks for the observations. You 100% correct about a plan and focus. Here is what I jotted down after I read your challenge: Goals: – Learn to maintain Frame, but at the same time know when to evoke feelz. – Learn to get better at passing shit tests. – Become better at soft dread. – Create options…maybe pursue a plate or two if opportunity arises. Right now, I’ve got enough on my hands. Juggling a teenage daughter, job, side projects, GF, exercise, dog, yard, time with buddies does not leave a lot of extra time to manage a multi-poon… Read more »

Andy
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“But apparently, the ONLY mark of success for you is how many sluts you can sleep with. Wow, it’s like we’re still in high school.” @Emily Oh Emily, I feel bad about making fun of you earlier. Also, I just feel bad for you in general. You need to cut yourself some slack. Sleeping with a few guys in High School or whatever doesn’t make you a slut. It just makes you a human being. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sex is a natural and beautiful thing. Your religion is fucking you up. Why would you want to worship a… Read more »

Dutchman
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“Honestly, if I had to guess you might have a glimmer of hope there. She might be rationalizing that she’s staying for the kids but actually still want you to step up. I have a hard time believing a woman would stay “for the kids” these days. Hard to say for sure though.” I think newly has a lot more than a glimmer of hope here. There was an article on CH (or somewhere) about the difference between a guy who comes home to find his shit thrown all over the lawn versus a guy who comes home to find… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ newly Even if you’re not listening, this may help other men. If a woman has turned nasty on you–even showing contempt–you can still turn this around if you have some ethical reason for not moving on. First, train her like a dog, decreasing attention when she misbehaves and increasing it when she behaves properly. This will build up your frame (for you) and status (for her). Do not get angry. Rather, let yourself be bored with her bad behavior or better yet, slightly amused like she is your bratty kid sister who barely gets any attention from you. Second,… Read more »

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@Culum – Thanks. And yes, my wing is all about Sarging. We have been working together for a while now. I do need to lay down the rules a bit better though as he disrupts me sometimes midset. He’s not as good at escalating verbally and spiking and he interjects sometimes with the dumbest shit. He’s in competition with me subtly and doesn’t even realize it. We need to sort this out. But he’s teachable and open and not some insecure douche. He gets laid and can talk to women, he just has no real plan. I think I’m going… Read more »

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@Roused – While I’ll defer to Culum and SJF etc., I was also struck by your behavior at the party in the sense of what you were trying to achieve? Spiking a little dread the right way would have made her fuck your brains out after the party, instead you pissed her off. Not sure what you did made sense at all and I think being clear about your Intent is crucial.

scribblerg
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@Newly – Again, you are getting lots of good input from other guys here but I was left with a sense that you might be able to turn the situation with your wife around. It’s very hard to understand what’s actually going on with her by how you describe her – sure, she’s super frustrated with you and may be unsalvagable but perhaps she’s actually just begging for you to game her and dominate her properly? I get that you have the “asshole” vibe down but I don’t get a sense of any seduction action from you. Also, divorce is… Read more »

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@Roused A couple thoughts applying to LTR holiday party game. (mostly specifically to you, not general case game) Based on an observations of mine at parties with couples: One tip I would give you is when you are at a party like you described in your holiday party FR, at the stroke of 11:00 PM make it a point to gravitate toward the center of the party (the bar area, or middle of the “action”) rather than corner hotties on the fringe of the party. I’m talking about you, personally, being 6’3″ tall. When girls whether single or married are… Read more »

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“Spiking a little dread the right way would have made her fuck your brains out after the party, instead you pissed her off. Not sure what you did made sense at all and I think being clear about your Intent is crucial.”

I disagree. Specifically, once again in his case, Roused already likely got his brains fucked out of him in the last couple days and he is getting it regularly. So it is no big deal to not get it on one night if it stokes slight dread and cures perceived one-itis. Win the war.

newlyaloof
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@Scribble “I get that you have the “asshole” vibe down but I don’t get a sense of any seduction action from you.”

For about as long as we’ve had kids, we’ve been part of the struggling middle-class that is barely able to keep it together without having to downsize. So, this whole time, we’ve both been like overworked, stressed-out zombies just trying to keep our heads above water. Not a good environment to facilitate seduction, but I’m working on fixing up the house so that we can downsize and hot have so much stress. That should help.

Emily
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@Andy The point of my post is that terpers clearly overvalue sex with low quality women, to the point that it’s considered by some here as the main indication of an ‘alpha.’ Imo, it’s far more alpha to be loved by one high quality woman. And even if I wasn’t very religious I would still not sleep around, I think that’s an indication of immaturity and insecurity (for men and women.) I certainly was both immature and insecure in HS, I’m not now. So you basically proved my point. You think my bf is a beta for being monogamous with… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Emily – Funniest? You lecturing me about the meaning of solipsism when you aren’t even responding to what I actually said. Do you get that, you dingbat? Note – I said Bizerian was an asshole – he’s not my role model. I just saw him as another guy similarly situated to Trump and a public figure that others here would know who isn’t marrying models in sequence and paying them off, and who projects a stronger Alpha vibe than Trump does. And stop calling Trump “Mr. Trump” – it makes you sound sycophantic. For the record: sol·ip·sism noun the view… Read more »

kfg
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“I certainly was both immature and insecure in HS, I’m not now.”

And I thought your last joke was your best. Just goes to show it pays to wait.

“You think my bf is a beta for being monogamous with me . . .”

That’s not monogamy.

” . . . for me, being successful means forging a stable, happy family.”

Just like all the Mrs. Trumps did.

Softek
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“Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.” This is exactly what I’ve been dealing with. Long story short, I’m not committing to a relationship with this girl, and at the same time, I want her to be committed to me while I’m free to have sex with other girls. I’ve been VERY tempted to go Blue Pill with her and enter a monogamous relationship, but the fact is that Dread works, and I’ve worried that if I ‘give her what she wants’ and commit to her, she won’t be mine for much… Read more »

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“For my bf, being an ‘alpha’ means having a successful career (for him, Trump would be a far better rolemodel than Dan Bilzerian) and for me, being successful means forging a stable, happy family.” No, being Alpha would be if he turns you on, fucks you well, and could have other chicks if he wanted. Is he those things? My guess? Either you’ve never had good sex before and are ignorant to what good sex is like (which might actually work in your favor.) Or you think that the Holy thing to do is sacrifice your sex life in favor… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“She’s still hanging around and we’re having just as good a time as we ever were.”

Pay attention to what she does, not what she says.

“. . . I’m just her ‘friend’ is that a form of soft cucking?”

Since she’s negotiating commitment that you are withholding, it’s a shit test. Smirk.

theasdgamer
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Back when I was a boy/young man, we had tougher skins. I think that men have bought in to the FI’s femininization of men and that inhibits plain speaking.

Coddling of men vindicates the FI’s pussification campaign.

theasdgamer
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I don’t object to people telling me I’m out of line. I may not agree, but I have no inherent objection to being told off. Several men have done that and you don’t see me taking my marbles and going home or ignoring them.

SJF
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Heh Rollo, Emily should pay more attention to her studies.

That would suck to be a philosopher six years down the road that can only debate with
-changing the subject
-non-sequiturs
-ad hominems
-straw man arguments
-and making shit up.

And WTF is a terper? Is that supposed to be a derogatory term for someone that is red pill aware? She can at least capitalize it. What about if one is game savvy? does terper still apply?

theasdgamer
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I just published a post about pussification and the training of boys.

https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/pussification-and-training-boys/

scribblerg
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Lol, she sees Trump as a role model for a husband for her BF – when he’s been married three times and only marries hot, young models. She also expressly focuses on career success as what her BF should be focused on – expressly Beta conditioning. Of course, neither Trump or Bilzerian are good role models for any man. They are both fucktards who started life on third base, hit singles and think they hit homeruns. This is why they are both caricatures of men and are compensating nonstop with over the top displays of masculinity. As for an Alpha… Read more »

redlight
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Speaking of the guardian:

We have only had sex three times in four years

now what does Pamela Stephenson Connolly, a psychotherapist specialising in sexual disorders, think is the answer:

…try to simply share what it’s like for you to go without intimacy, and how much you miss it. Acknowledge that you’re aware sex has become an off-limits subject, but that – rather than cajoling her – you genuinely want to understand her feelings. Then just listen.

Hopefully the guy finds TRP at some point. Now he’s getting more sex than Emily’s boyfriend so perhaps it’s time for a stiff upper lip.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/dec/07/we-have-only-had-sex-three-times-in-four-years

scribblerg
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@Softek – You should write a book about your journey, it’s so inspirational and nothing short of amazing. My advice? Focus more on yourself, deepen your commitment to developing yourself. You’ve only finished the first lap in discovering your true power and abilities as a man. At a certain point, you will be laughing about how your girl behaves, not be perplexed by it. You are the prize – she gets that. Perhaps you should try internalizing that even more. Read the Henry Rollins interview I posted, seek out men like that who are truly “creating their own wheel and… Read more »

IAS
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@SJF: Terper is a slang time for a TRP person: The Red Pill (TRP). The term is mostly used on reddit, particularly by the blue pill (TBP) subreddit, which aims to try to make fun of the red pill subreddits. Emily probably is on TBP.

theasdgamer
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Game and kids…one of my kids took me out for coffee and a chat. Game is working. The kid used to not even talk to me back when I believed that Mrs. Gamer’s shit didn’t stink. My kid now even accepts that mom isn’t perfect. I’ve had to run some Mom Destroyer Game on the kid. (Not trying to destroy kid’s relationship with mom–I’m merely doing this to bring kid back to reality.) This is a big deal.

kfg
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kfg
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@Scribbler & Softek:

“At a certain point, you will be laughing about how your girl behaves . . .”

Exactly, the recommended smirk ought to come naturally, her ploy being so obvious that it’s funny.

And when she reverses the ploy to forcing the issue by calling herself your girlfriend, outright giggle.

theasdgamer
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Henry Rollins…introvert…liberal…MGTOW…not a model for me…who gives a fuck about him

theasdgamer
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@ IAS

What do we call Blue Pillers? Bloopers?

Striver
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ScribblerG: I would recommend every divorced father get as much time with the kids as they can. Quantity time, actually raising the kids. I would have taken 50/50 if I could have gotten it without a big court fight. I got 6-8, which is more than 40% time. My state has fuzzy criteria where I was going to get somewhere between 5-9 and 50-50 if there was a fight. Ex was lowballing and might have had sway with a judge because the kids were young and she was a SAHM. So I took the middle when it was offered. Lawyers… Read more »

Dutchman
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@Emily,

Does your boyfriend know about this site? Send him this way, what’s the worst that could happen?

scribblerg
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I can’t help it. My clients are all slowing down and I’m just chilling here, enjoying the day. So, I’m gonna talk a little more about Trump. Just one snippet, so people can get a sense of just how stupid the man is – in his primary business, that of real estate. Note, Emily, I didn’t say “dumb” – he’s not unintelligent, he’s stupid in that he doesn’t use his mind to its full potential by a long shot. I also do this for others here who have fallen under his thrall. In 2006, The Donald started a U.S. based… Read more »

Seraph
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Hey Folks… Field Report Follow-Up I almost hate to post this because it shows how little I know about RP despite all my reading, and is a bit cringe-worthy, but if it helps anyone, especially myself, well, that’s what RM is for, right? I need the post-mortem on it to get the lessons out of it. This may get long so I will go over basically what had happened and THEN do my take so people can just read an comment on the first part if they want. What Happened First, to sum up what happened before… Little over month… Read more »

Seraph
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One additional thing I could use some insight on dealing with… Despite me saying “women do what women do” I am having trouble accepting this idea that a woman can be so over the top with her signals, be so demonstrative and then shut that shit down on a guy. That feels like a ridiculous sense of entitlement, but is that just the ugly truth of today? Yes, I know there are bio-mechanics to that, and yes, please beat them into my head, but it irks me. I almost feel violated like a chick would be if you grabbed their… Read more »

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@Seraph,

My suspicion is that she initially had the vibe that you were alpha, but she became convinced otherwise. I could be way off here but I think she was looking for you to escalate, hence the kiss on the cheek. Why did you give her your email instead of your phone number?

Anyway, I think it confirmed for her that you’re not alpha when you sent the milquetoast email. She was not ACTUALLY looking to catchup but she offered that up as beta bait/plausible deniability.

Dutchman
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“Despite me saying “women do what women do” I am having trouble accepting this idea that a woman can be so over the top with her signals, be so demonstrative and then shut that shit down on a guy. That feels like a ridiculous sense of entitlement, but is that just the ugly truth of today?”

YaReally has written a ton about this. In that moment, she was super into you but over time her buying temperature cooled and you failed to spike it back up with your shitty email lol.

scribblerg
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@Striver – No hate as you aren’t being a douche. I wonder why guys here can’t get that it was how ASD went at me, and why versus me not being able to take input on me and my daughter? He was changing the terms of our argument on politics cuz he’s simply at not my level of understanding of such things and his facile thoughts on the subject were destroyed by me. So he started yapping about “step daddy destroyer game” and other such nonsense. The difference between us, Striver, was that I didn’t have “flex time”. I was… Read more »

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Emily
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@Dutchman My bf hardly uses the net or his computer. Mostly just browses a comedy website every now and then, but that’s about it. @Scribbler Solipsism is actually a theory that arises from Rene Descartes argument in Meditations, where he starts by asserting that you cannot prove that anything exists. But he then proves, by logic, that you cannot doubt your own existence because the very act of doubting your own existence proves that you are an entity that exists in some form. Solipsism then, is the philosophical position that your own existence is all that can be known to… Read more »

Seraph
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Seraph
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@Dutchman,

Thank you. I am going to walk away from keyboard for awhile after this, but keep it coming. I appreciate it.

Okay, I get what you are saying. All of it. It makes sense.

My question is, WHY do the last message? What is the female psychology of that? Is it simply a little more plausible deniability whip cream on the sundae? Is it trying to garner a little more attention? Is it an attempt to elicit a little more of the response she was looking for?

newlyaloof
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newlyaloof
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@Scribble, do you read ZeroHedge? Just curious. I do.

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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@Seraph

It’s not as if women don’t talk to men they consider betas at all. Think about it like if you saw her at the grocery store. She wouldn’t be falling all over you because she’s already concluded you’re beta, but she’s still probably going to at least say hi. Look at how little thought and effort went into the last message. Look at how little vulnerability she had to display. It’s just a throwaway friendly social gesture, like waving to your neighbor as you pull out of the driveway.

Dutchman
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@Emily

“My bf hardly uses the net or his computer. Mostly just browses a comedy website every now and then, but that’s about it.”

LOL. Way to not answer my question at all and disqualify him.

“Oh no, he’s not the sort of guy who even CAN use a website for communication with other men. That doesn’t fit my definition of who he is, so I can’t bring him on here.”

SJF
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“@SJF, doesn’t churchianity generally frown upon Philosophy and favor theology or seminary schooling?” I can’t speak from experience because I have never been a churchian (although I went to some excellent Catholic schools and love and respect that experience–an almost entirely secular experience) but I would think that a philosophical aptitude and rational thought would be scary for churchian elders and old church ladies. It would be more difficult to keep the flock in line. The Church doesn’t need to worry about Emily, though, her degree is for feather-in-a-cap only and at the rate she is going (at least judged… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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Emily – Honey, do you think I’m unfamiliar with Descartes? There is also a common use of the word solipsism, I even gave you the definition straight out of the dictionary. The word is often used to describe the kind of mindset I described and Rollo’s use of the term is accepted and it is used that way all the time – it is not always referring to Descartes tiresome reasoning (see his “circle” debunked very well here http://philosophyotb.com/w/descartes-circle-debunked) . So, get again that you have little idea of what you are talking about and instead are deflecting and using… Read more »

Emily
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Emily
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@Dutchman
Naa I’m just saying he’s unlikely to listen to me even if I ask him. I actually would like to know his opinion on the red pill. But he thinks I’m ‘weird’ for even commenting on blogs and on youtube. So he’s not gonna join the manosphere anytime soon.

Maybe after I ‘divorce-rape’ him or ‘leave him for Chad’ or something.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Re: the Roused party girls

Sounds like you were giving an impression of ‘chasing’ the girls a bit. That creates resentment. The impression to aim for is that you’re just being your usual self and the girls are chasing YOU. That’s dread and massive DHV.

Emily
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Emily
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@scribbler
“Treat older women as you would your mother”
Do you treat your mothers like you treat Insanity?

kfg
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kfg
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“The way you guys use the phrase is incorrect.”

It is shorthand for “solipsism syndrome,” which is well understood as such by people familiar with the term and eases conversation by not having to explicitly define all terms in their long form.

Of course that only works for people who have had a sufficient education in the subject, so it would seem you haven’t “taken a course” in that yet.

Perhaps when your level of understanding has progressed beyond the sophomoric.

But you’re so cute when you try to teach us to suck eggs.

SJF
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@ Emily Happy holidays. I’m not bitter or misogynistic. And I’ve been monogamous and married for longer than you have been alive. I like your religion too, just not your feminized version of a church. (and there is nothing wrong with femininity–I love the feminine in woman, it gives the masculine polarizing energy). So therefore you should listen to what I have to say because I am not bitter or misogynistic (how’s that for an argument?). The red pill and game are a praxeology. Not an ideology. They work. Your churchian-ism is an ideology. What is it doing for the… Read more »

SJF
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@Forge the Sky Re: the Roused party girls

Exactly.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Newly – Zerohedge is very good. but his politics are a bit off sometimes for my taste. However, for insight into capital markets (beyond the nonsense being spewed at you by CNBC), there is no better source for the “man on the street”.

Emily
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@KFG
Irony that you are calling me uneducated on this subject, while using the term ‘solipsism syndrome’ incorrectly.
‘Solipsism Syndrome’ has far more to do with existence and nonexistence in a philosophical sense than the way you use the term (self-obsessed, narcissistic.) Example: A person who believes that the world outside their own mind isn’t completely real suffers from solipsism syndrome.

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@Rollo: could I have your email address? I really need some advice.
I realize I probably come across like a bitter misanthrope but I promise I don’t bite. I just really need some help

kfg
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kfg
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“A person who believes that the world outside their own mind isn’t completely real suffers from solipsism syndrome.”

And here you are, “creating your own reality.”

Andy
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Andy
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“I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement. God knows some men desperately need it.”

lol. What would your advice be to men in relationships Emily?

“That Guardian article really makes me sick. Women like that are terrible.
But yeah, they have been manipulated by feminism. After all, feminism and TRP both teach their followers to focus on short term desire and hedonism.”

lol… Emily! Newsflash! It is possible to be attracted to your husband! You have a serious Madonna-whore complex.

theasdgamer
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@ Seraph

She likely saw you as the flavor of the minute and wanted immediate gratification, you didn’t provide it, some other dick caught her attention, etc.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Emily – That advice was for younger people, not for 53 year old men. But for the record, my Mom has been dead since I was 11. She died giving childbirth to my younger sister because she refused to have an abortion, a child I played a father figure to for decades. She turned into a cunt too, just as you are on the road to being… But I do have an analog. My ex-stepmother. I always respect her and treat her with kindness (even though she dropped me like a hot potato 21 days after I turned 18, so… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Emily

“Treat older women as you would your mother”
Do you treat your mothers like you treat Insanity?

Strangely enough, Insanity seems to like me a tad.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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scribblerg
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scribblerg
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Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@scribblerg

Hahaha, I was about to say “Dude I’d take a knife up against airsoft any day of the week…”

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@bobo

You keep hinting you’ve got something to spill here. Why not just out with it?

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@Forge
Are you referring to me?

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Seraph Thanks for reporting back dude! So. You emailed her again? Lord. If you tell a joke and no-one laughs, do you tell it again in a funny voice? I mean, I get it. Been there. Your beta brain just takes over and you make it seem like just the BEST idea in your head at the time, then you’re like ‘hey wait, aren’t you supposed to NOT do that?’ Later on. It’s like how RSDTyler says if you fuck s chick with no condom it’s like the BEST FUCKING IDEA you’ve ever had, and then you nut it and… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@bob

Ya, I’m typing on a tiny touchscreen lol

Roused
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Roused
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From Forge: “Sounds like you were giving an impression of ‘chasing’ the girls a bit. That creates resentment. The impression to aim for is that you’re just being your usual self and the girls are chasing YOU. That’s dread and massive DHV.” Yup, you nailed it. In retrospect that’s a it what I was doing. SJF was correct as well, I drank too much. I was not focused and got sloppy in what I was doing. The gin played a big role in that. The comments about dread dynamics were good stuff and will need to keep that in mind… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@roused

Yeah, what you’re doing is WAY better than being a beta wallflower. It’s just if you perfect it you can get the desire w/o the shitty emotions. But hell, those shitty emotions/her thinking you’re an ass can be good for an OCCASIONAL spike. It just can’t be her day to day impression of you if you want her to stick around.

theasdgamer
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@ Seraph This is about fixing stuff for the future, not worrying about the past. Don’t get hung up on this last broad. Don’t spend much any time thinking about her. Let’s talk about windows. Windows are brief periods of opportunity. When a woman walks up to you and shows massive interest, then you play it cool, she will feel like you’re a dud. You missed the window. There are things you can do to enlarge the window. Show massive demonstrations of value. One way to do that is to ask a broad you are at a club with to… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Roused

And that’s how it’s done. Gratz.

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@Forge: yeah, I got a couple things that bother me around this time of year. Losing my brother is right up their along with the fact that my cousin (my other brother) is a great guy but I hardly see him. He’s totally whipped and stuck in the matrix. I just had a morning where somethng happened that happens to me all the time. This women (volunteer at a food bank) threw herself at me. She kino’d me. Made it abundantly clear she wanted to bone me. As usual I did nothing. Other guys would kill for this. If I… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Emily
“But apparently, the ONLY mark of success for you is how many sluts you can sleep with. Wow, it’s like we’re still in high school.”

Speaking of high school, Emily, are you still cockteasing that poor sucker? The one you used to sex up, before you got religion? Did you set a marriage date yet, or did Daddy order you to finish your expensive but worthless degree first?

We’re all here to help you, dearie.

theasdgamer
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@ bob

To be honest, I’ve only started to piece it all together after I hit 40.

So what’s your self-improvement/life-improvement plan? Your female relatives sucked and mistreated you, so what are you doing about it?

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Bob – I can relate to these childhood traumas deeply affecting our adult relationships and I commend you for speaking up about your suffering. I have a some questions before I can make any recommendations: – Do you have any diagnosable condition? PTSD? Anti-social personality issues? – Have you done any therapy or other form of treatment for what happened? My experience has been that revisualization therapy works very well for childhood traumas/abuse. I also use the Sedona Method to release negative emotions when they overwhelm me. But let me say that your issues sound serious and I think you… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Roused, Forge & SJF – Yeah, I get it now. It was the chasing that threw me off I saw it as too mean or something. Interesting how it spiked her though, good learning for me. Thanks for sharing it and all the break down guys.

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@asdgamer: I would respond by saying you’re an idiot but it’s clear that you lack certain capacities due to your autism. I’m familiar with autism as a close friend had an autistic grandson. I wouldn’t expect him-the grandson-to respond appropriately so I won’t expect it from you. Nevertheless, I’ll make an effort: enquiring about a persons ‘lifeplans’ when they just shared something that has haunted them for decades-and took a significant emotional risk btw-is inappropriate and emotionally obtuse. Also, its not relevant at this point. People grieve-something I know.a great deal about- and it is a process. I lost nearly… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ bob My life is a fucking bowl of cherries, lol. No income coming in yet but I’m working on my books. One kid shacked up in South Dakota and was taught better. Another has been emotionally distant. One friend doesn’t like the Red Pill me. Mrs. Gamer was shit-testing me today yet again. Money troubles. I came out of a five year depression. Was obese. Am old. Parents divorced when I was young. Parents both dead. You don’t hear me whining and offering excuses. Or daring people to knock the chip off my shoulder. Or trying to pick fights… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Bob – ASD is who the scroll button on your mouse was designed for…As for all the losses, I too had a string of losses over six years, my mom, all my remaining grandparents, two aunts and two uncles, in my teens. It was like a death carnival and simply overwhelming emotionally. No friends though. Again, good for you for opening up. Many men here can and will help. As I opened up more, many guys here were very constructive and supportive. Also, sounds like you may have done some work, so take my suggestions as merely that. And also… Read more »

Andy
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Andy
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I was kind of thinking over the weekend about what society would look like where open relationships are the norm. So there’s really two outcomes I think. There’s the reality where very very few guys have game and then there’s my dream world where all men know that game exists, and spend a good portion of their lives to getting good at it. Regardless though we can always expect there to be a spectrum of value. Actually I think the only difference is in the latter case the median guy would get laid, while in the case of the former… Read more »

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@asdgamer: didn’t whine. not once. again, you are an emotional retard. from what I’ve seen, you offer very little. this forum seems to be where you come to tell awesome dance stories and give yourself pep talks about what a lady-killer you are. Now fuck off you pathetic little cunt. @scribblerg: appreciated. i’ve lurked a long time and I’ve been cottoning on to the fact that you, and certain others, are doing the work. that’s exactly what I want to do. it takes balls to put oneself out their-both here and in meatland. thanks for setting a good example and… Read more »

redlight
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redlight
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This comment in r/deadbedrooms shows how TRP can be presented without TRP lingo. The case is a 20+ passionless marriage for a nice guy. Part of the reply: Just imagine, the look on her face will be priceless when she realises that you pulled the ultimate revenge on her, when you cut her off from her free money supply. WRONG! She most likely will just hurl a bit more abuse at you and laugh in your face for taking it for so long, and you’ll just continue on to another relationship where you’ll be downtrodden and hen pecked again. Ego… Read more »

theasdgamer
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Ok, bob. I’m autistic. I’ve got a wife who’s into me and is a unicorn of sorts. A kid who still talks to me. Sort of what scribbler says that he wishes he had. Yeah, I’m clueless, obviously. You need to listen to scribbler. He’s the man with the plan. Are you just gonna wallow in self-pity, being haunted by shades of angry female relatives? Are you gonna let your female relatives’ malignant programming constrict your life and continue make you miserable? Enjoy playing the victim card over and over and over? If you realize that that’s been going on… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@bob Recovering from abuse and violence is difficult, particularly when the source of it was women earlier in life. You feel like you’re going to face massive consequences merely for acting in your own self-interests, so long ago you stopped even thinking of what you want and acting on it. Your decisions are driven entirely by external authority. It hollows you out as a man. It’s hard to move from that long held default learned internal behavior to visualizing what you want then acting on it as a default instead. I know as it’s currently what I’m struggling heavily with.… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Andy – Interesting but I see one problem with the scenario in which most guys game. That is the fact that women “aim up” – they are all after the top 20% and that is a relative measurement so there will always be a top 20% – in SMV, in game skills etc. I think what happens will look more like this. Beta men get less and less sex in general. Many resign from the game as the marrying/monogamy and trad values old world was about restraining female sexual agency and now that this is gone, more and more men… Read more »

Emily
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Emily
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Seriously, Rollo that ‘Planned Obsolescence’ article (and the articles linked there) kind of frightened me.

Not that I’m afraid that sexbots will replace me one day (good luck w that) What struck me was that.. you guys essentially only deal with us because of sex. Nothing else is important to men, there is nothing else about females that you like.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Sun – This. “Counter intuitively the former is proving more difficult than the latter for me, largely due to long held negative internal views of myself that I’m still struggling to shake.” And this “Every time I feel like I should be over my past, some new bullshit crops up that’s related to it” Yep. That’s the neurology and biology. These pathways are grooved in. Releasing and revisualizing are my tools but my path is so fucking crooked I think I’m moving backwards half the time. Good to hear this from you, brother. How about we do a “wounded soul”… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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As a personal aside, a few weeks back I started updating parts of my wardrobe I felt confident in picking. Casual stuff, mostly. Disposed of all my ancient t-shirts, leaving only a few for days I’m doing housework and such. Got rid of any stuff I didn’t think looked good. Replaced the t-shirts with far fewer more form fitting stuff, the jeans with darker pants. Updated my shoes to be a bit more stylish, grabbed a weathered black leather jacket with fake white fur lining and hoodie that looked nice. I’m still striking out while going out, but I’m starting… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“I think it’s almost unavoidable that we are heading for serious social disruption . . .”

There will be no peace. Prepare for war brides.

kfg
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kfg
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@Emily: “Not that I’m afraid that sexbots will replace me one day . . .”

That would be redundant.

“.. you guys essentially only deal with us because of sex.”

Bring something else to the table that can’t be obtained elsewhere.

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