Open Relationships


During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

709 comments on “Open Relationships

  1. I noticed this paradigm chance in Scandinavia also. Media started to promote open relationship with celebrities.

    Prolly the most idiotic relationship form that males can enter into…

  2. Excellent article. Rollo, pursuant to this topic need some advice. What are your thoughts on alternative lifestyle such as swinging / swapping? What does a guy in an LTR stand to lose in the long term? Is this a slippery slope leading to an open relationship?. Some background: In an LTR presently, I have high social status, heavy prior use of dread game. She is hot / very attractive but has a high level of suspicion that I can / have / will bang other girls at work. She has suggested a threesome and I have mandated “female only” as our third which she is okay with, but now she’s also suggesting an adults only resort…. Thoughts / advice on the latter?

  3. Hmph. I’m so glad I found out about you Rollo. And even moreso I’m glad I found out about YaReally through you. What amounts to the “Doom and Gloom” some people refer to when it comes to you and your work really seems moreso to apply to men who’d let this shit happen to them.

    Not Red-pills.

    She still only has access to men she can realistically attract. How many of those guys are “Optimal Alphas”? And how many of these “optimal Alphas” have access to the internet, and may not be interested in sharing their woman?

    If women and my own biology are going to make me play then I’d rather play ping-pong than cuck, cuck, goose.

    Also, thank you for making the audio of the man in demand conference available. I gave it a couple of listens and I was able to catch everything after all.

  4. Going with your previous posts about about Open Hypergamy

    Normalizing of adultery in marriage. Rationalizing covering up a friend’s affair as the best outcome.

    We will probably see more of this “It’s for the best”.

    (But for whom?)

  5. If you were a “beta” are you still a “beta” even if now you are acting like an “alpha” ? No one I know has gone from being a “pussy” to the leader of the pack. The real “alphas” do not allow that. Or is it just around women that you refer to yourselves as “alphas”.

    1. @waco,

      7. The Political is Personal Hate

      Hater: A true alpha lives the life, and does not neurotically obsess about his status on an internet blog.

      Other than in a facetious fashion, I don’t think I’ve ever written about my own status, neurotically or otherwise, on this blog. Instead, I simply speak the truth about the world as it is, and give advice about attracting women that has worked for me and many other men. People who are offended by that decide I must be revealing my inner neuroses and obsessions, for any other explanation would surely pucker their sphincters. These people are best suited for careers as buttplug testers.

  6. Now wait, maybe I’m missing something…

    But in an open relationship, where she goes off to fuck other dudes, wouldn’t the sex with the “primary” just trickle down to nothing?

    Cue the sad handjobs!

    So the dude in an open relationship with her would literally only get the “privelage” of providing?

    Its like wives that cheat, I think most of the time there is little or no sex at home with the husband.

    Have their cake and eat it too, is all this is.

    ‘re: swinging

    “If you’re going to swing, be the biggest dick in the room” – Athol Kay

    As purple as he went, I agree with him on that.

  7. Here’s some truth too…

    My wife provides plenty of value to me.

    Having sex with other women does NOT decrease her value to me.

    (Having options decreases my scarcity NEED, but not my WANT to have her around)

    I can love my wife and still fuck around is all I’m saying.

    I think most men, if it weren’t for blue pill beta programming, could say the same of themselves.

    Women can’t compartmentalize in the same way.

  8. I don’t think women are looking for open relationships to get more provisioning, right? I mean if they can find a richer provider, then they would just change men.

    So most of the time it means a woman has already maximized the provisioning side, but needs to boost the sexual side. If the dick she currently owns is not getting it done, of what use is it? Perhaps some courtesy fucks here and there, but maybe not.

  9. ” If the dick she currently owns is not getting it done, of what use is it? ”

    Cooking, cleaning, changing diapers and receiving packages from UPS. Beyond that he’s her parachute, her insurance policy. She doesn’t need him for provisioning, per se . . . but she might and he’s reliably whipped.

    Men will jump off a cliff to find out what happens. Women will not unless they know what will happen.

    The dude’s her tested and trusted bungee chord.

  10. For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.
    … Work

  11. yeah open relationships are ridiculous. If that’s what you are in, then being single is better, as you don’t have a SO to provide for. Women in the open relationships can’t deal with the partner fucking around or having him getting another woman to fall in love with him.

  12. “For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.”

    Exactly. I would also say that compartmentalization is masculine, bottom line.

    There is this Christian marriage book that’s all about how men are spaghetti and women are waffles. I’ve never read it but the metaphor is amazing.

    The whole idea is that men are like waffles, like they have little separate squares to put feelings and situations and different parts of their lives into and they don’t touch. So this is why some girl’s husband plays video games all day and has no job but he doesn’t seem to feel it and she doesn’t understand. His joblessness and his enjoyment of video games are in separate boxes and they aren’t touching.

    But women are like spaghetti. All the feelings and situations and relationships are all jumbled together and everything is touching and inextricable. A healthy feminine woman, even if she wasn’t attracted to her husband, wouldn’t be able to separate out the shame and pain of what she was doing to the most important man in her life and openly sleep with other men.

    But women are further masculinizing, and now we have this.

  13. Why does open relationship favor women and not men?
    A woman can knock on one door and get laid 100 times.
    A man can knock on 100 doors to get laid once.

  14. A woman can get laid 100 times and get one kid and at least one child support payment. If she’s really slick, maybe as many as three.

    A man get get laid once and get to pay child support equal to more than he makes for the next 24 years (plus penalties and interest on the shortfall) and not even find out the kid isn’t his until he’s too deep in to get out.

  15. I think the “open relationship” dynamic is just the evolution of the LJBF shit test whilst in a LTR. It really serves as an agreed and accepted time-bridge for her to openly branch-swing, whilst maintaining the beta’s safety net of resources – usually so she can squirrel away enough resources to eventually drop the “open relationship” once she’s satisfied her hypergamy. Her sexual strategy must always be strictly on her time scale.

  16. I’m currently witnessing two separate relationships that are illustrating the AFBB dynamic. Two of my friends are both marrying women with multiple kids from other men.

    I don’t doubt a single thing you have written Rollo. What is interesting however is that these “lessons” the women have “learned”, as predictable as they may be, are also totally real to these women.

    In their heads they dated the jerks, learned their lessons, and have finally found someone who appreciates them for realz and will take care of them and their brood.

    It’s kind of surreal with red pill awareness. To see something totally predictable that is at the same time very real to them. It’s gone a long way in convincing me that freedom of choice is really just an illusion.

  17. ” Why does open relationship favor women and not men?
    A woman can knock on one door and get laid 100 times.
    A man can knock on 100 doors to get laid once.”

    Women drive the act of sex. Men take the blame/responsibility.

    Practically every woman I have ever bedded has actually made the decision/selection. Game just expedited the process and helped to guide that choice.

    The average man would never attempt to put forth the proposition of having an Open Relationship. Men might talk about such a thing among themselves, but a super-majority would NEVER approach a wife with such a proposal.

    There is zero benefit for a married man to ever consider such an arrangement. It is an automatic lose.

    I had an odd circumstance with a woman once, not a spouse and not even a true LTR. She was just a chick I was sticking my penis into regularly for a few months. Story goes like this -\

    Her: 24 year old Ecuadorian stripper ( ! ) working in the same club that I worked in. Club consisted of mainly Brazilian and Russian strippers. Good Times.

    Stripper was hotter than New Orleans in August. I pressed her harder than an iron on a wrinkled shirt. She relented and the fuckage began in earnest.

    Around the 3rd or 4th encounter, she made me an offer. She wanted me to marry her so that she could get ” papers ” ( this was before immigration wised up and put a stop to this tomfoolery ). Under her master plan, it would be an ” open ” arrangement where I could do whatever I wanted. I could bring women home and she would join in if I wanted. She promised sex on demand ( L O fucking L ), cooking, cleaning… anything thing I wanted.

    Okay, so I knew at this point it was time to blaze a trail away from this broad, but I wanted a few more parting shots.

    It ended when she started removing my condom under the guise of the mid sex blowjob, then re-inserting my junk raw and trying to grind a surefire baby out of ma balls.

    IMO, all ” open ” relationships only ever provide benefits to the woman. Their reasoning and justifications are abject bullshit every time. Call me a chauvinist, ( No really, I like that shit..) but there is a difference in penetrating and being penetrated. A woman has different mechanisms at work to make sex possible. She has to get at least a little hot and bothered.

    I can kinda see how a guy might think ” HEY!!!! Alright!!! this is gonna be GREAT!!! “, until he finds himself lying in bed alone while his girl is out riding John hard to the finish line.

    A requirement all men should have for an LTR and/or marriage, at the VERY LEAST, is that no cock but mine for you. I always thought this was automatic.

    Polygamus. or polyamory or polyethylene, IDGAF how they name it, shit by any other name still stinks. Leave it up to the FI/Media to slap a new name on cuckoldry ( Cuckoldry sounds so negative after all ), wrap it up with a pretty bow and set it out in front of us all, with a huge smile and a ” look what I made for you honey ” declaration.

  18. I can’t find a reason why a man would or should accept a open relationship when we/he can just spin plates & improve game. It just lines a man up for more providorship. Open relationships that is.

    Meanwhile, a female recieves all kinds of benifits: side slice of alpha cock as some have already mentioned, more money and/or gifts/goodies, ATTENTION, men competing for her which then provides ego nurishment and fulfillment. Seems like winning for women, you know what for the rest of the AFC’s out there

  19. All you need to know about “open relationships”:

    A key that opens any lock is a master key. A lock that opens for any key is a shitty lock. Choose your locks appropriately.

  20. Our 5 closest living relatives- Chimps, Orangutans, Gorillas, Gibbons and Bonobos share roughly 98% of our DNA which diverged from humans about 5-7 million years ago.

    Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangutans are quite sexually dimorphic (big males, smaller females) and have a Harem sexual mating system (Males rule and collect a harem of females that he guards from other males). The strongest male gets the biggest harem.

    Orangutans are much less sexually dimorphic and they are a Matriarchy. The smaller females will gang up together as a group of team woman Tang to subdue any disobedient male, first by shouting him down, then by cutting off sex, and finally by ganging up and beating the hell out of him. The male tangs spend most of the day lounging around with no motivation to do much of anything.

    Gibbons are a reclusive and sexually monogamous species. They have sex about once a year.

    We were Chimps and Gorillas. They tried to make us Gibbons for much of human civilization.

    Since 1st wave feminism, they have tried to turn us into Orangutans and we see the precise social dynamics playing out- lazy men unmotivated to do much of anything. Rampant and indiscriminate sex. Females shouting down men in public and on social media forums. They will fully succeed if open cuckoldry becomes socially enforced.

  21. @LeeLee

    The concept you’re talking about we call ‘female solipsism.’ More or less.

    I’ve written about it a bunch (think it was under the article ‘Solipsism I’ in particular) b/c it’s a tricky thing for men and women to mutually grasp. Basically women tend to bleed together all factors into a current ‘now’ experience that supersedes all other perspectives – whether their own (past) perspectives, or other people’s perspectives.

    For women, everything is a factor. And ‘everything’ is all the things currently in awareness – no more, no less.

  22. For those who cannot imagine a man who would want an open relationship, let me speak up. I was married for 8 years (we lost our virginity to each other) when I asked her for the open relationship, the idea being that I wanted a fling or two here and there, offering her the same. We have children and I can tell you honestly she was not going to run off on me (yes, AWALT, whatever). She had no interest. From her point of view, I had married her and I was hers, no sharing. She simply cannot see that variety matters to man (Rollo is right that a woman will never understand what a man gives up to get married). I stayed faithful for another 4 years until, for various reasons, I thought “what the hell” and cheated on her several times. Yes, as a man I was “making up for missing out.” Men do this too, you know. She eventually found out. I had no intention of leaving and these were one night stands and not emotional affairs, so our love was still there. Some of the best sex I ever had has been after her desire to please came back. Point is, don’t assume that every open relationship request comes from an AF/BB dynamic.

  23. i had an “open relationship” with one of my plates. We banged for around a year. She banged other dudes, I banged other girls. I didn’t ask any questions. But once at a party I walked into a store room to toss a beer can and she was blowing a dude I knew.

    I never said a word. We never spoke of that. I nexted her immediately. She texted a day later saying “so drunk that night”. Nothing.

    There is a point where this just isn’t cool. I think you have to know your limits and when to say when. I wasn’t mad. I just realized this girl wasn’t for me in any way shape or form.

    So the idea of “open relationships” may be acceptable to some women but for men it has to be a plate and it has to be just about having fun and then you have to have a point of no return.

  24. If we’re going by ‘the Old Set of Books’….

    Men are the pigs. Men are the ones who can’t keep it in their pants. When a man gets into a committed relationship, it’s a major sacrifice he makes to not fuck around.

    If that’s *really* the case, then why are there poly women popping up? If it’s tough for a guy to be faithful, then surely it should be no problem for a women to remain faithful.

    That is, if we’re going by the Old Set of Books.

  25. Too many people in our society will chalk this up to women (now) being on the same playing field as men. What they won’t admit or want to talk about is how men are the ones who usually get screwed over in our legal system – by default. I agree with men staying single if they want options because once they are married there is no open relationship. If she wants an open relationship then it’s time for a divorce (thus, women win the money and they are now free to pursue new men).

    In addition, men marrying women with kids is a bad deal. I’m advising many younger men to disqualify women (actually tell them) once they find out they have kids. It’s the only way that this trend will reverse – once women realize their value plummets (being told by men) when they already have kids.

    Women always see their options as “empowering” as long as it pertains to them. Once you put the shoe on the other foot (men doing it) then it seems wrong or the man should pay. In either case, the man does actually pay (that’s the part they are missing).

    Men need to be a little smarter, stop paying and see their path 2-3 steps ahead before getting involved versus trusting and just letting things happen (old books – as RT would say).

  26. I’ve never seen an “open” marriage turn out well, longterm. I think the “swinger” movement started with fighter pilots. They call it the “Lifestyle” last I heard. Some bases have more of it than others (remote locations seem to do it more, no surprise there). Everyone claims it’s just fun, and all that. In my experience women have a harder time “compartmentalizing” than men.
    However, I’ve seen a lot of men leave their wives for mistresses.
    There was a flight attendant a while back who was juggling two married Captains. The Captains thought it was exclusive (at least, on her front), and when they found out about each other they were angry and there was a ‘bidding war’ of sorts. One promised her (stuff) the other promised her (more stuff) until it culminated in one offering to leave the wife and family for her. That guy “won” (lucky bastard!). I think that was the third exoskeleton in that black widow’s closet.

  27. The normalization of cuckoldry has always been in the air in this breeder culture we call America where the brood sow is worshiped as a special magical being. The 1998 movie Waking Ned Divine disseminated the brood sow propaganda that it doesn’t matter that the “father” doesn’t know it’s not his child.

    And it’s only gotten worse. JFK had multiple sex partners, everyone kind of knew it, and the nation respected his privacy. Today, cheating male politicians are lampooned and run out of office while the press never inquires into the sex lives of female politicians or the wives of male politicians.

    All hail the brood sow!!!

  28. @Sun Wukong – That is a brilliant metaphor!

    @Forge the Sky – Interesting. I’ve been meaning to learn about and understand solpisism better.

  29. @BluePillProf: Women will continue screaming at men in public (ala Yale) until men are willing to get back up into their faces, make it clear he feels assaulted, and starts pushing her away from his face, just like any woman could do, or any parent could do to a stranger screaming at your child. The Yale guy is a liberal White Squire Mangina who deserved everything he got, in public fashion. Like he said to the crowd, “hey, I support/ed everything you do/have”. Fuck him and guys like him, he got hoisted with his own petard.

    In fact, MGTOWs and other Red Pillers should, as a matter of subterfuge, be encouraging liberals/progs to go after these “elements of colonial white male patriarchy”, and get this pieces of hamstershit off public payrolls and university payrolls (private or public). It will bring about the total collapse sooner. So if you find yourself subjected to finger pointing by some sensitive, prog or SJcreep guy who is in charge, at work or wherever, plant the seeds with the “underclass” there (women/minorities) that this guy is “such a remnant of the old way of thinking (patriarchy)” and shit like that, so they will target him. The Salem Witch trials only ended after rich/prominent folk got targeted. Same thing here.

  30. I hate to put it so literally, yet its my observation that yonger women essentially consider all their relationships “open” as a default status.

    If Mister Beta comes in and assumes he’s the only one she’ll let him believe so because his presence serves her purposes. Yet, whether she says so openly or not, few modern women consider themselves truly bound to their boyfriends /husbands .If a better guy comes along and she won’t be socially marginalized for it, she will act on it and to hell with the consequences.

    As such, its my belief the “Open Relationship” label is merely full disclosure of what she will do anyways. It’s the difference between being told what the APR on a loan is upfront versus the APR being hidden on page 10 of the forms. Either way the bill is the same . For the modern Beta male , female fidelity is a pipe dream no matter how the terms are explained.

    On her side being in an “open ” arrangement is a nice way to dodge the “cheating slut” label. See cupcake wasn’t cheating when she slept with her wealthy boss, it was an open relationship. Given the ubiquitous branch swinging instinct women have , my AWALT crystal ball says in a generation the boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic will basically cease to exist. She’ll date multiple guys openly, and the guys will either play ball or walk.Should a dude sack up and walk ,ten of his peers will trip over themselves to get a spot on her roster .

  31. Field Report:

    When a relationship is stressed and both people in it are at each other’s throats, it becomes an emotional open relationship in a way. One or both stop trying and stop respecting each other to the point where does it really matter if they physically cheat?

    This past week, I’ve found a new calmness in dealing with things that would have caused me to blow up. That’s a big development for me. I’ve been much happier even though I still have to correct my wife for stuff I deem disrespectful to varying degrees.

    But she’s constantly rushing around and yelling at the kids in the morning due to her not giving herself enough time to relax and plan for the unexpected and still be on time and stress-free. I’ve joked with her in the past that she needs the drama of constantly being on the edge of being late as if it were a drug.

    Anyway, I needed some financial information about our mortgage from her yesterday morning, so I called her before she left for taking the kids to school (website was down, so I couldn’t access my information I usually get online). I asked her to look something up about the mortgage that would have taken her 20 seconds to tell me, but she said she was too busy and would call me back after she got the kids’ clothes. Well, she didn’t call me back, so 20 minutes later I called her on her cell and asked her why she didn’t give me the information I needed. She acted as if I was being insane and that she’d simply give me the information when she got home. She accused me of making up the website malfunction just to prove a point about being late. I told her she could check it herself when she got home to see I wasn’t lying. This whole time I was not yelling or upset.

    Little did she know, though, that since she has planned a girls’ midday out, and I’m trying to build up ammo on her in case she tries to bail with the kids, I had a voice recorder in her car. As soon as she hung up with me, she yells, “FUCK YOU YOU MOTHER FUCKER! IF IT WASN’T FOR THE KIDS, I’D LEAVE YOUR FUCKING ASS! YOU’RE INSANE JUST LIKE YOUR FUCKING MOTHER!”

    That’s the first time I’ve actually hear with my own ears what I’ve suspected for some time. So, anybody want to chime in with some advice, I’m all ears. It’s a bit sad to finally hear the words, but I’m not mad at all. Sometimes shit doesn’t work.

    Despite what happens, I want to have as much time with my kids in one home so that Mommy can’t make me out to be the bad guy and ruin our relationship. So I’ll be as polite as I can for as long as I can and keep shit together in one house. Not sure if I’ll find a side piece right now. She may do the same, but at least now I won’t be surprised if either of us do.

  32. LOL- I’m still not getting what the big deal is here.

    Polyamatory (or whatever nom-de-jour is being used today) is Fucking Fantastic for us guys who just want to get our rocks off with lots of female members of the species.

    Give the ladies their feelz without the hypocrisy of “affairs” while their beta dwerbs who could never satisfy them anyways continue to flush their lives down the disney drain.

    Lots of guys waste their lives doing online gaming, doing drugs, watching porn … so what? We don’t get all hot and bothered about problems people have that existed long before, and will still be here centuries into the future.

    So why all this angst about betas doing what betas have always done?

    You have more than enough to do to get your own house in order.

    As far as hypergamy goes. Are you wanting to find a reliable baby momma and raise a kid (or two?)

    Grow a pair man- become the kind of dominant, no-compromises, man-with-a-plan who takes charge and builds the kind of relationship a woman really wants to be in.

    Of course- how to that could be the subject of an entire encyclopedia, but guys … this is doable! I’ve seen it happen.

    Make it happen if mono is where you want to be.

    Fuck the polys if you want to experience variety.

  33. There really is no reason for a man to invest in a long term open relationship. There is no guarantee of paternity. And given Hypergamy a female will game the males to oblivion.

    Every single girl who informed me of her open relationship status tried to bed me.

    Perhaps Open relationships are merely a woman putting a fence around her beta orbiters and domesticating the herd. Because you know Miss Open is still looking for Alpha Meat.

  34. “my AWALT crystal ball says in a generation the boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic will basically cease to exist. ”

    My HS aged niece says this is already the case. She says there is no “dating” really at all. Take a girl out? No, doesn’t happen. The closest they come is him inviting her to a party with 100 other people.

    They use the boyfriend/girlfriend terminology, but only if others know she is fucking him for a longer period of time, and only as a sort of ASD.

    Otherwise, girls proudly talk of their “hooking up” with multiple high value males.

    For their part, the guys don’t care what she does, because they are the top 20% alpha guys that are getting laid regardless. The other 80% bug them on social media, but don’t make a move at all IRL.

    Says guys are either “video gamers” or the “one’s that get laid” with no between.

    AF without any real BB to speak of.

  35. And @newlyaloof ,

    This is over. You need a pitbull lawyer ASAP. The reason you need a pitbull is because you’ve got a very pissed-off woman on your hands,

    Don’t underestimate how dangerous your situation is. This woman has made it clear that she will turn on you, and it appears to me that there is a high probablity of this degenerating into what lawyers call a ‘high-conflict’ divorce.

    It’s fantastic that you’re outcome-independent, because that’s exactly what you need.

    Keep her completely clueless, prepare the ground for the split, sock away enough assets, especially cash, keep on recording (ABR-Always Be Recording has saved the ass of many a man from divorce rape)

    Because of the bias of the family court system, you have to make sure you’re fully prepared in every way. The biggest reason for complete discretion is that even preparing for divorce can be viewed as a negative by the family court system, on the part of a man.

    From what I’ve seen, preparation, especially making sure the woman can’t borrow money to retain a pitbull lawyer, is key to heading off divorce rape at the pass.

    this is a resource you may find useful

  36. @Cave,

    “Says guys are either “video gamers” or the “one’s that get laid” with no between.

    AF without any real BB to speak of.”

    I suspect that will change as they age. <18 girls don't have a need for BB.

  37. newlyaloof,

    You have potentially a looming divorce. Get thee immediately to a good divorce attorney to receive counseling on how best to protect your assets and how best to behave in order to best position yourself in a custody dispute.

    In the mean time, never underestimate the power of giving her a good fight, a good spanking, walking out for a month or two, and, of course, dread game. Do not deal with her rational faculties. Deal with her limbic system.

  38. @Newlyaloof, be careful recording without consent, it is NOT legal in ALL states to do so, even of a spouse. It may be in your state, but it is not in all states, not even in your own house or car.

    You might want to head over to, which has a lot of good info, especially in the forums. Search and read “The List” (or google it), it’s been floating around the father’s rights/divorced fathers sphere for 15 years, with some updates I am sure. It is INVALUABLE as far as strategic thinking.

    From reading your post, you are making one of the MANY mistakes men make in heading for divorce, but also are doing one good thing.

    Your mistake is in thinking that the courts give a shit that she is a shitty person, mom or wife. They don’t. Proving infidelity does not matter (remember Enrique’s law, white women’s participation in infidelity, made it socially acceptable for all women, which judges have adopted). Catching her cheating or hating you, or even anything LESS than the most egregious parental alienation, means ZERO to any judge in family court. Nothing will be withheld her, regardless of what you prove as far as her fitness as a wife–and as a mother, unless she is actually abusing the children, her activities won’t mean jack.

    The GOOD thing you seem to be doing is this: You absolutely, when kids are involved in a divorce situation, WANT TO ENCOURAGE HER TO SEEK AND HAVE HER ALPHA FUCKS. Women will often get so many tingles that they will AGREE (without battle) to joint custody, or for you to have the kids, as long as on paper she can look pure. TAKE WHATEVER YOU CAN GET, and FIGHT for 100 percent custody, knowing that the original status quo, is what the courts usually go with. So if she moves out–encourage her to spend more time with her boyfriend, you’ll take the kids (take them to do many things, set up appointments with the doc, teachers, etc). Let her be “free”, while you focus on establishing your primary caregiver creds.

    Women don’t really want their kids. They just want to avoid the stigma of not having them, and they want CA$H when divorcing. Seek an agreement that gets you the kids and gives her whatever–some men (most actually) waive child support, meaning, do not actively seek it, if they can have custody. Wait a couple years, then file for CS. The kids are technically entitled to it, but if you go into Court all friendly, she has her AF and you are being the “understanding beta” with the kids, many judges will sign off on it. She will eventually get dumped/dump/hypergamy her way out of that first relationship, but you will be rolling with the kids (hopefully at your home/full time) and THEN you turn the screws. “Gee, Karen, I don’t know…I mean, I’ve had them full time the last two years…and frankly, my attorney was saying I really should file for CS”.

    EVERY SINGLE divorced woman with kids, who did not HAVE the kids, that I met…was an Alpha widow, and usually they are either not paying CS (he isn’t asking) or they are complaining that they “can’t fucking believe my ex just took me to court after three years of getting along, to get child support…i mean, he HAS the kids, right?! WTF should he get that” I smile every time I hear that kind of story.


  39. @Dutchman, yeah you are right.


    That sucks man.

    Yeah, listen to Tom. Dangerous waters for sure. You are on stage, everything you say to her will come back, so watch it. No anger.

    DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. It WILL be used against you in court, especially when it comes to child custody.

    I would assume she is already cheating. Keep that in mind as far as STD prevention. (lots of raw dogging in affairs)

    Also, if she freaks out and decides she wants you around, beware of her getting pregnant to keep you.

    It’s also common that a woman who has “checked out” will have financial obligations the man is unaware of.

  40. @ Dutchman

    “I suspect that will change as they age. <18 girls don't have a need for BB."

    No it will not. Cause as the little carousel rider ages public welfare and social service steps in. Governmental subsidy is the new BB.

    I know a lots of "heroic" single moms in their thirties. They have zero need for any human BB.

  41. My experience of women who self-identify as poly are of very low SMV. I’d assumed they could only get orbiters by putting out—literal attention whores.

  42. @zip,

    Yeah, but there is a huge stigma attached to welfare/single motherhood. The government might provide enough to live, but it doesn’t provide enough to have dat pinterest lifestyle they start dreaming about in their mid to late 20s.

    And I’m not saying women won’t have LESS use for BB, but they will still have PLENTY of use for them. Shit is changing, but it’s not changing THAT fast.

  43. I’m 50, my wife is 40, my GF is 29, both look a good ten years younger than they are, and are intelligent, accomplished, high value women. We have a fully polyamorous arrangement. They aren’t with me for provisioning, they are with me (and share me) because I am the alpha in their lives. My wife enjoys plenty of male attention, but she only has eyes for me. My GF dreams of an exclusive provider, but we all know she won’t be able to settle for one. The only problem I have with this arrangement is keeping two sexually voracious women satisfied. It’s a hard (heh) job, but someone has to do it.

    I got here through game, and a long, painful road it was, especially as a teenager. Nevertheless, having made the journey, I can say the ONLY obstacles were internal. There are several books I could write on that process, but the bottom line is, I had to slay the beta. I did, and I still do every day.

    Polyamory is not all about women. Women do gain from it, but its benefits flow more from beta males to alpha males. It’s an increasingly mainstream social concept, which from my point of view only enables and supports exactly the relationship model I want.

    There is nothing in the world that cannot become an advantage, if only you can find a way to turn it into one. We live in history’s golden era. If there’s something you don’t like, either work to change it or learn to use it. Starting with yourself.

  44. “Yeah, but there is a huge stigma attached to welfare/single motherhood.”

    Maybe still in the States but not in “liberal” Europe. Au contraire are single mothers glorified in poor old Europe.

    They have a bunch of orbiters around them, true. They use them on occasion, e.g. for going on holidays, managing relocations or “having fun”. But rarely one is committed to these orbiters.

  45. There’s no “stigma” in the US attached to welfare of single motherhood, and many of the single moms, you know, the one living in that $500k home in your neighborhood, are receiving Child Support, and possibly Alimony and many in the lower-middle-class-yet-still-drives-an-Acura class are receiving some form of welfare, soft or hard.

    Most welfare is “hidden” from view anyhow, which has helped de-shame it’s receipt and also shielded it’s recipients. I think people, particular White folk, are COMPLETELY oblivious to just HOW MUCH welfare minorities receive. And almost all programs are designed to give welfare benefits to “needy” mothers, which can be a woman who makes $50k or $75k, depending on how her finances and/or salary are structured (and CS and alimony almost never are inputed)

    Free breakfast, lunch programs, discounts or free afterschool programs, SNAP (food stamps on credit card, swipe like ANYONE at the store!), paid tuition at upper class private schools, subsidized transportation, classroom books, computers (laptops, tablets), FHA programs, housing allowances, electric/power subsidies.

    Nearly every aspect of their lives–subsidized on the backs of the American Mules. Which is why I say, let those career women work those hours, move up and pay those taxes to fund all that. While I’m too old and established in a well paying career, I admire the young guys who are spinning plates, keeping low paying jobs, and playing whatever the newest games are.

    People seem to have no idea how MUCH of the lives of minorities in the US (and single moms of any stripe) are subsidized. And no, I am not saying ALL minorities, but percentage-wise, it’s very high. The HIDING of such reality is in fact the point of the progressive agenda.

  46. Open relationships aren’t really relationships at all really.

    Humans are naturally conditioned to be monogamous, so I’m not really sure what’s wrong with people who desire open relationships. Also, it seems to be far more beneficial for the women, so I’m not sure why a man would agree.

  47. @Newlyaloof:

    The general advice I have offered here is to get your divorce lawyer working on your case before you get married.

    You’re late to the rodeo; lawyer up cowboy.

  48. @enrique

    “There’s no “stigma” in the US attached to welfare of single motherhood, and many of the single moms, you know, the one living in that $500k home in your neighborhood, are receiving Child Support, and possibly Alimony and many in the lower-middle-class-yet-still-drives-an-Acura class are receiving some form of welfare, soft or hard. ”

    There isn’t a stigma attached to a DIVORCED single mother living it up on beaucoup child support BB, but there is definitely still a stigma attached to the “I’ve never been married and rely on welfare subsidies to support my brood” shit. How many yuppieish hot white girls have you encountered that you realistically think will NEVER marry and NEVER try to have that “My perfect pinterest life” BS?

    “People seem to have no idea how MUCH of the lives of minorities in the US (and single moms of any stripe) are subsidized. And no, I am not saying ALL minorities, but percentage-wise, it’s very high. The HIDING of such reality is in fact the point of the progressive agenda.”

    The internet let the cat out of the bag.

  49. Update, just talked to her on the phone calmly. Created a friendly atmosphere in the words and tone I used (Thanks guys, kind of like, let’s be friendly for the holiday spirit). I reiterated that I did not in any way make up the website malfunction and showed her how she could go to the site and see what I meant. She actually replied, “I know. I know. I didn’t doubt you for a second.” Total lie. I’d say that it’s unbelievable, but we know better don’t we.

    She’s mid forties, talks about how she thinks menopause is coming up fast, has zero saving, no financial sense, yet thinks she can find better out there, if not for the kids. Amazing.

  50. “Humans are naturally conditioned to be monogamous”


    Thanks, needed that laugh after a depressing post such as this, and then seeing newlyaloof’s troubles too.


    when the wife and I were having troubles, she was actively encouraged to divorce me by pretty much all other women she knew. Yeah, there is no stigma on single mom’s. There is a stigma on being alone though.

    With that said, it’s impossible to know what the current 16-25 year old’s relationships will look like in 10-15 years.

    Sure, open relationships, open hypergamy, poly whatever…but men are checking out in droves, so how long does that last? LOTS of lonely men and women in 1-2 decades if things continue this way, lots of financial and cultural hardships too.

  51. “when the wife and I were having troubles, she was actively encouraged to divorce me by pretty much all other women she knew. Yeah, there is no stigma on single mom’s. There is a stigma on being alone though.”

    I have no doubt my wife’s friends would “you go girl!” her all the way to the courthouse if she went that route (while talking shit behind her back lol) but I don’t think she would HAVE those same friends in the first place if she was a never been married single mother welfare recipient instead of a married middle class chick. The stigma would be that she would have to run in lower status social circles.

  52. @newlyaloof,

    “Update, just talked to her on the phone calmly. Created a friendly atmosphere in the words and tone I used (Thanks guys, kind of like, let’s be friendly for the holiday spirit). I reiterated that I did not in any way make up the website malfunction and showed her how she could go to the site and see what I meant. She actually replied, “I know. I know. I didn’t doubt you for a second.” Total lie. I’d say that it’s unbelievable, but we know better don’t we.

    She’s mid forties, talks about how she thinks menopause is coming up fast, has zero saving, no financial sense, yet thinks she can find better out there, if not for the kids. Amazing.”

    Was it hard for you not to call her out on that shit?

  53. @newlyaloof: a woman is insane to begin with; add perimenopause and it’s a vial of nitro. Sure ride the wave; yet there is no dishonor in having a PFD.

  54. @Dutchman “was it hard for you not to call her out on that shit?”

    I thought about it, but I didn’t WANT to call her out. It has no long-term strategy gain to do so. Besides, I like controlling the great feeling I’m having lately of controlling my frame and being calm more than I wish to “win the argument.”

    I am treating all interactions moving forward as potential actions to be used against me in court. I plan to be happier and more carefree and act like our relationship is the best despite all the issues I’ve brought up.

    Chess, not checkers.

  55. P.S. About a week ago after reading some stuff from Scrib and YaR and others, I realized I needed to be more calm and handle my frame better. It has helped me tremendously with inner development this past week. Concurrently, I was at a Mom’s store a week ago looking for some B-12 shit my wife has harping on me getting for the kids. I saw all these essential oils (which I think is all hippy hogwash generally) as I was looking for the b-12. Saw one for Sage Oil – Mental calmness or some shit the label read. I sad F it and I got some and have been taking it all week. Damn if it hasn’t helped calm my frame and relax me like a champ. Shit seems to be amazing, but I’d like for some of you other guys to try and tell me if you experience similar “frame/calmness control” as I have, or if it’s just a psychosomatic response, or if my new mindset has been solely responsible for my calmness, thus I don’t need anything else.

  56. If you are contemplating divorce, she’s already 5-10 steps ahead of you. Read “The List” and absolutely fight any instinct to White Knight, unless it is part of some underlying subterfuge, or to obscure your intent to divorce. Once it get’s kicking, you are absolutely advised, to NOT leave your house, and to openly record in front of her, everything. THAT has saved many men. One thing I have noticed from having gone through my own divorce and observing other men for 15 years…if you openly (and safely) battle back, such as recording every interaction, openly, and let them know you will have all points covered, they will eventually retreat to the basics (whatever the law says as far as $$).

    Women don’t like to work hard, and if she thinks she will have to sift through hundreds of hours of recordings or her own, or pay an attorney to, or if she will have to prove things, she is unlikely to go much beyond the cash and prizes already deemed lawful to take. The false abuse claims usually are avoided when the man makes it clear he has ZERO trust and is recording everything openly.

    She will of course, set the narrative with friends that you are paranoid and crazy…none of these people, including the men, will be your friends anyhow, so no one cares. Also, never helps to let her know–when appropriate, that you TOO have concerns she is abusive, to you or the kids, or that she is not mentally stable, etc. Men ABSOLUTELY have to utilize the system the best they can, to even come out almost even.

  57. ” I was at a Mom’s store a week ago looking for some B-12 shit my wife has harping on me getting for the kids . . .”

    If she weren’t feeding them sugar frosted Crap-In-A-Box for breakfast they wouldn’t need it.

  58. “They tried to make us gibbons.” Who are “they?” It’s men all the way down.

    Forget about humans are naturally this or that. Unless you want to live in grass huts. The struggle is why we have all of these nice things. The tension. So hypergamy is necessary, I guess, but it must be struggled against.

    Too much orangutan, the men do nothing. Betas can organize and kill alphas, harems won’t work for humans in the long run. Too much temptation makes gibbon a struggle to maintain. RP alone is nihilistic and ignores that fate must be struggled against. Ultimately a struggling subset will overtake secular RP thought.

  59. @newlyaloof

    enrique has given you some spot on advice. I know more than one woman who dumped both husband and kids when they thought Chad Thundercock was going to take care of her for the rest of her life. If you can engineer that, so much the better. You can make all of your legal maneuvers much easier if you can get her in that state of mind.

    And get a damn lawyer. So much divorce advice depends on where you live and the laws that pertain.

    I will say, you might want to start making extra ATM withdrawals and socking the cash away somewhere. If she ever decides to play hardball, all it takes is one DV accusation for you to loose access to everything. Then you have to address the DV charges before you can even begin to handle the divorce. And all of this will be true, while you have limited access to your money.

  60. Also, you can get an app on your phone that records all calls. Check your local laws however. Not all locations allow for one party consent of recordings.

  61. ” . . . you might want to start making extra ATM withdrawals and socking the cash away somewhere.”

    And a safe house (or even just a self-store) would be dandy if you can swing it. Sock away some place to go, or at least some stuff to have.

    Make up a go bag as well, something you can grab as you’re grabbed out the door. Make sure it contains a USB drive with copies of all your vital documents on it.

  62. @kfg

    Oh god yes. Don’t even think about storing your evidence in your home. Get it out and somewhere else the moment you collect anything useful.

  63. @newlyaloof: you absolutely need to read The List, and start planning. Oh, and all this stuff men think about how if they work harder, make more money…all that will be used against you. You need to focus on being fatherly, and robotic. Soccer dad who just wants to be so loving to her and for her to be happy.

    Beta down, encourage her hypergamy:

    “Fuck’s sake Sarah, I want you to be HAPPY, why are you not already living with him? I get it…I failed…you’re right. Sheesh. Look, I’m taking the kids to the park, it seems like it’s all I am good at these days…I wasn’t up to the task and I have zero rights to keep you from being happy. Plus, Chad seems like a nice guy. Hell, take a weekend, I’ll have the kids and it will make you a better mom to be refreshed.”

    American women are narcissistic enough and stupid enough to track that hypergamy with you–6 months later in Court, you show all the happy pictures of you and the kids at the museum…the dates you took them to the doctors, your communications with teachers. Make it undeniable. She will already be buried deep in so much cock, once her attorney phones it in to her that you are willing to pay $$ (which you pretend is a concession, even if it is what she was already going to get), she will be glad to hear it, hang up and get back to Chad Thundercock.

    –document everything, watch all interactions with her, monitor cash flow, develop even BETTER relationships with teachers, docs, church/synagogue folks…never bad mouth her to women in those positions btw, the best you can hope for is a neutral teacher, social worker, etc.

    RADIO SILENCE is also key. Holy shit if I could set up a seminar. Looks like DadsDivorce forum has moved to that link I posted above. But gosh, you got all these guys that blab every move to their (soon to be ex) wife, or go out and get extra jobs, or hours at work. BETA the fuck down, be that diaper changing stay at home dad just about. Encourage her tingles, get an attorney, and play negotiations cool, always seeking more information, etc.

    Never settled for anything less than half, at any court ordered mediation (or don’t agree!). Women, I think even MORE now than 10-15 years ago, are MUCH more comfortable with a (ex) husband who agrees to take the kids half (or more), as long as she doesn’t have to pay, etc (that can be changed later once you have established primary status). They are out partying saying shit like, “No, my ex has the kids…he’s better with them”.

    The stigma has, interestingly, been somewhat removed due to hypergamy.

    -Also, download and read, on your password protected Tablet, Negotiation books. Much of this, in the Courts, is structured to keep you from actually going to a Hearing on the Merits. You want to know your BATNA, and learn how to game theory the shit. Once it’s locked in, give zero fucks, in a couple years, she will be an Alpha widow of many cocks (she may even make a second approach). Always encourage her to get mental help at that point (to document her instability, LOL).

    Fucking PLAY this shit learning from other men’s mistakes.

  64. @newlyaloof: TRM is a great resource but these hard core guys are not interested in “saving” a marriage. You can also try

    with your field report and question. I will be happy to discuss/answer over there.

    On the TRM forum I have three questions for you: Are you leading? Are you just collecting information for the divorce? Or do you want to try to “fix” this?

    I have 2 points:

    1. A woman will treat you precisely as badly as YOU let her treat you.

    2. Because a woman rants and raves uncontrollably does NOT mean the marriage is over. Not quite AWALT, but close.

  65. @BluePillProf

    My experience suggests that most men seeking to “Salvage” a marriage, are operating under Rollo’s well-named “Old Set of Books”. In a case like Aloof’s where he has already heard her, discretely recorded, articulate her utter contempt for him, he SHOULD be divorcing her (following the rules set out by learned men in the Father’s Rights Movement, most of whom are WAY BEYOND in Red Pill wisdom).

    Trying to save anything with a chick like this, is essentially giving her time to reload. He can slow down the clock, by letting her Thundercock for a while, but he should ALWAYS be planning and preparing, per my recommendations, which are from years of experience in this.

  66. @Driver “It’s the only way that this trend will reverse – once women realize their value plummets (being told by men) when they already have kids.”

    Your assessment is sound, but Women don’t think that way. They simply double their efforts in landing a soft enough chump to sign up for the job. Or, worse, they get knocked up again and trap some misguided AFC.

    As long as there are plenty of AFC’s buying into the Disneyesque fantasy they crave (and there are legions of them) the tide of Open Cuckholdery is not going to recede anytime soon. All we can do as Men is to be aware of this reality in our daily lives and (most importantly) advise as many young men as possible about Red-Pill awareness. I’m already counseling my 15yo and his friends about what to expect and they are quite receptive.

  67. ” . . . these hard core guys are not interested in “saving” a marriage.”

    I am not interested in “saving” a marriage, but my advice is not only neutral, aspects of it can used as pieces in the game of saving a marriage by saving the man.

    And saving the man is something I am interested in.

    Along that line, the only men I have ever advised to actually leave a marriage are those that are married to cluster B’s.

  68. @newlyaloof

    SUBTLY son.. and before you let on about any hint of splitting. i.e. over the course of about six months.

    – Start closing credit card accounts she has access to that are tied to your name.

    – Start making small cash withdrawals that will go unnoticed that you can sock away. Get $20 cash back on convenience store debit purchases, for example.

    – Begin contacting lawyers every day and inquire about their services, giving your full name to them.. Find out who the best *man-slaying* lawyers in town are, and contact them. make a record of every one you contact. In Texas, at least, none of these lawyers you have spoken with can now be hired by your wife.. you are basically severely limiting her options. This is probably the most effective tactic of all.

    – Record her constantly. Especially when she’s hysterical with the kids. Everything you can stage that makes you look like the far more reasonable and mature parent.. do it. Again, be patient, do this subtly over a period of months.

    – Make sure you are mixing in some good times with her, making her happy where you can.. even do something above and beyond, try to get her to sorta backtrack and fall back in love with you to some extent. This will make her more easily manipulated.

    – Generate hard proof that she has access (and always has) to your family financial accounts. If you have any accounts that are exclusively in your name, disclose them to her (subtly), and record it, or create some other proof that she is aware of it. It’s important that you have this proof. Otherwise she can say she didn’t know about it and you were defrauding the community. The burden of proof will be on you to prove she knew about it, and that you spent the money on legitimate things. Give her some money from it. Or, spend some of it on her and retain proof.

    – If you’re recording and you have a fight, get her to hit you/throw something at you. Better yet, get her to falsely accuse you, or threaten to falsely accuse you, on record.

    – Save those recordings of her ranting in the car.

    – MOST IMPORTANTLY: When the time comes to do it.. Try to do it amicably, and with a mediator. Do not do it yourself. Spend the $2500 and use a mediator. Kiss half of whatever you’ve got goodbye, and don’t bat an eye. If you fuck up, or things become messy, you can kiss all of it goodbye my friend.

    The fact that you have kids will cause this to be painful.. no question about it. If you want primary custody, and her paying the child support, you better be squeaky clean, and have some dirt on her. There is no other way. If this is the case, you should speak with a lawyer long before you announce to her, do much preparation ahead of time, and come at her with guns blazing when the time is right.

    – If you and the wife smoke pot, you stop smoking now, but let her continue (if possible). When you file, order a hair follicle test for both of you. This alone could win your custody battle. This was done to me, and basically killed my disposition completely. Here, the judges do care about it..

    Do not tread lightly. Do not expect lawyers to do the work for you (even though you’re paying them). YOU will have to do the work.

    The things on this list are ALL things I WISH I had done.

    Instead, I lost everything, and lived a nightmare come true.

  69. I think it’s a matter of perspective. If a guy is contemplating divorce–the feeling is in the air–you can bet she’s WAY AHEAD of him in planning. I think Aloof could find himself balls deep in Pendente Lite payments, changed locks, restraining orders. Seen it too many times to not warn otherwise.

    Saving the man in this case, is forcing him to recognize her chess moves and to prepare according to OUR set of books. Countless men have thought they were gaming their wives (when the conditions are as he has laid out) only to get hammered anyhow, a year, two or 5 down the road, with different financial situations, housing issues, kids in whatever situation.

    Radio Silence. Document. Father your kids. Move carefully. Execute.

  70. Tufflaw cements what I am saying.

    Also, when it comes to mediation and White Knight tendencies…remember, if you ACT like a wallet, you will get treated like one. You MUST make it clear that you are going to actively parent, do all that 100 percent, etc.

    Now, having said all this, as Tufflaw and other men have noted, even when you are fucking PERFECT, it’s still difficult.

    The biggest thing I learned, of the many things, which would almost seem to nullify our advice (but doesn’t) is: The rules do not apply equally to her. If I had a penny for every time my ex did something unlawful, or violated procedural law (even with her attorney’s advice), or failed to disclose something…fuck. She didn’t even attend the court ordered parenting classes (which are typical). She basically proved female bias, and gave zero fucks about any of it, because she knew–the Courts will NOT sanction her in most cases.

    I remember my Red Pill moment of Family Law when I finally pleaded with my very cool, conservative Female attorney (who saved my ass basically): That my Ex kept breaking the procedural rules, lying over material things (like her income), doing things like not attending the Court ordered parenting class, etc…and I was like, “How can she do all this shit and nothing happen, even when I win I lose, WTF?” My attorney was like, “Now you’re learning.” She was as RP as they come. She knew I had to approach it as a business transaction where you KNOW the other party is lying about the number and quality of the widgets involved in the sale.

  71. @enrique

    “The biggest thing I learned, of the many things, which would almost seem to nullify our advice (but doesn’t) is: The rules do not apply equally to her. If I had a penny for every time my ex did something unlawful, or violated procedural law (even with her attorney’s advice), or failed to disclose something…fuck. She didn’t even attend the court ordered parenting classes (which are typical). She basically proved female bias, and gave zero fucks about any of it, because she knew–the Courts will NOT sanction her in most cases. ”

    Family court judges would seem to the biggest white knight faggots on the planet. Those dudes have NO excuse for it either. Women’s bad behavior is on full display for them day after day in their courtrooms.

  72. “Those dudes have NO excuse for it either.”

    Actually, where children and/or charges of domestic abuse are involved, they do. Kickbacks; they are not, as judges are supposed to be, independent. They have self interest involved.

  73. Thanks Tuff, Enrique,and everyone else. I’m into prepping, so I shall merely expand my efforts on this front.

    I actually would like to work it out, but besides the kids, I won’t suffer if it doesn’t since I get eyes from 20-somethings and 30-somethings regularly.

  74. Aloof: Remember, VENT here, or other places on the RP/Manosphere (encrypted or password protected of course). Do not share your ideas, hopes and dreams with her, unless it’s part of a strategy. Absolutely NO POKER TELLS, don’t get cute with it. Men who do best, are those who essentially start running an intel strategy (which is basically dread), so much so many women are like, “what’s up with you? You seem different…aloof, distant?”. THAT MEANS YOU ARE WINNING. “I don’t know honey, just feel like you have a right to be happy, blah blah blah”.

    So many dudes, operating under the Old Set of Books, think they have the special path, or some secret system to keeping the marriage together, or proving she’s a slut in court, or working more hours to impress the court–none of that shit matters really…the only path is the one AROUND the landmines of the last guy.

  75. @enrique, I have been prepping my mind to deal with her bailing out and possibly not seeing my kids much for quite some time. I’ve also prepped for getting all my shit taken in court and her bumping into some dicks. I’m a minimalist, so losing “my” house (the one the bank owns and I slave over each day) wouldn’t be a problem. Losing a 45-year-old vagina wouldn’t be too much of a problem either. I do need to get more action though, so I’ll have to determine how side slices and fear of getting caught and dragged into court play into my decisions.

  76. Man, after reading this and having a discussion with a friend over work I got a much better understanding overall of male/female mating strategies and how its effecting the current society.

    We discussed how, if you look at like a time line spectrum:

    Male——————Equilibrium (first/old set of books)————–I—-Female

    The “I” is where we currently are in terms of the female sexual strategy, very close to their biological threshold.

    At the extreme male end, it would be similar to caveman, tribe era where there is a greater population of alphas and they have harems, the strong survive and conquer. There is almost no need for the female to implement a strategy as that is the norm, if she is with a male, he is most likely already an alpha.

    At the extreme female end, we have open relationships as the norm and an era when there is a greater population of betas, in this scenario the females need to increase their strategy to find alphas the best possible way among the hoards of betas, by actually tapping into their genetic biology, using hypergamy and open relationships to their advantage.

    The more I think about it the more I marvel at the complexities of humans and almost feel proud of what we can accomplish (even when the females are currently in the era of their sexual strategy).

    What a time to be alive, being alpha in todays context is a rarity, its what the female biology craves. But what is in the future? Where will we be in another 100 years? With evolution anything can happen.

  77. The only such situation that I know of at the moment is a friend who married a woman with 1 child from a father who left her and decided he was gay. So while my friend isn’t exactly the biggest alpha, he’s certainly a step up from what she procreated with before.

    Frankly, their family is a disaster. The lone child (a boy) from the previous father is absolutely confused about just about everything w.r.t. life and his own place in it. Just about every observer believes he will turn gay or trans at some point, and my friend has basically *zero* influence on him.

    I think the rule of “never raise another man’s children” still applies, regardless of whether or not you’re the new “alpha”. Ultimately that child is his responsibility to be involved with. The risk to your own frame from dealing with a child that was not subject to your frame from the beginning is simply too big a risk to family harmony. You as a man should want no part of it, there is simply too much risk that it will undermine your authority and drag you down into beta-dom.

  78. Even female baboons and crocodiles are effectively monogamous, and I have seen no situation where a human female was happy being non-monogamous (with the serious stuff), or for that matter any man she was making plans for being non-monogamous. As far as I can see, the main syndromes in operation in women wanting “open” relationships are 1) trying to see what she can get away with in terms of trading up, and 2) avoidancy, which does not co-occur with happiness (not counting temporary self-delusion).

  79. All this advice re:divorce preparation really drives home how skewed the matrix is. I have to say that it is inspiring to see guys give a shit enough to help a brother out.
    I dont live in the states, gwn-‘onscario’, and our divorce laws arent as brutal; no jail for arrears on child support, etc. Having said that, is it possible to establish out of state residency with a view to filing for divorce elsewhere? In B.C., people incorporate in Alberta, rent or buy-changes primary residence;it’s a tax-dodge. Could this be a solution for newlyaloof and others?

    Anyhow, been lurking for quite a while. I probably come across as a misanthrope. Not one. Just really bummed by what I’m seeing on two levels. Rollo’s trm has educated me about the true nature of women. F$ckin’ wow. No honour their. More and more I just see how morality has been shed, just like a snakes skin, by women. Unfu$cking believable what trash most of them are by 35.
    I never got married. What led me here was a false DV charge. I spent a year going through court. All over now.
    I dont know if I’m a natural but women generally treat me pretty well, do me favours, vie for my attention,etc.
    The stuff I find that makes me cringe is having women near my age hit on me right in front of their kids. That’s happened to me several times in the last few years. I’m just amazed by that shit: no propriety. I read faces very well. I don’t solicit information. Yet for some reason it always comes my way. Each time this has happened to me, I noted the kids reactions. They weren’t old enough to cognitively ‘get’ that their mom was hitting on a total stranger but their facial expressions showed discomfort. One was trying to get my number! Outside a mall fer fecksakes. I feel like a mask has been pulled off to reveal a skull.
    I dont reek of provider. I reek of ‘this guy will fuck me good and put me away wet’ but I’m very restrained, low-key but something else has to be going on. I’m trying to figure it out. I’m leaning towards the violence continuum. I’m convinced women are attuned to it. I get a certain, consistent response over decades that makes me believe that women can discern where a man ‘fits’. This isn’t binary. I think women assess men as to where they fit. The severely damaged want to sit on the back of a chopper-attuned and responding to a rebel, fighter, possibly a brute. I think I’m getting a ‘he won’t use violence randomly but will when necessary without hesitation’. I think it is an aphrodisiac for them. They feel safe, protected and turned on. Plus, I like sex and fuck like a champ.
    I get IOI’s from young women routinely. From 20’s on. I’m pretty lad back when I talk to them and they really enjoy it. I do too but I hold back a bit.
    I started noticing women trying to get my attentio when I was 14. My best friend really resented it. I didn’t know till he told me once.when we were 17, ‘dude that girl was all over you….’. His resentment was right their in his tone. I didnt.know what to do so i just away.
    I’m struggling to accept human nature, specifically the horrible nature of women, for what it is. It’s not easy. I feel bitter and somwhat hopeless about it. Point blank: what is so disturbing to me is the idea of living in the same space with someone i can’t trust.
    I had a serious LTR in my 20’s. Should have married her. I broke up with her because I knew I wasn’t able to be a good father at that time-wasn’t psychogically prepared for.fatherhood until my 40’s. She wanted kids and has them with another guy. I saw her a year ago. It was only after reading here was I able to understand what i saw in her face completely. I ‘widowed’ her. She still loves me. I could see sexual desire in her non-verbals; intense passion beneath the surface.
    This stuff amazes me, embitters me and horrifies me. Simultaneously.

  80. @Bob, I can relate to what you say here. Women can sense a man that’s a fighter, rebel, etc. That killer instinct goes a long way when everything else is going to shit.

  81. Thanks for.the i put newly aloof. While I’m comments my inner critic is.viewing what I’m saying as juvenile or.pretensious. I’m just looki g for.answers and glad that rollo et al are here.
    I’ve lurked for a long time and only made.sporadic semi-bitter, somewhat insecure, somewhat boastful posts.
    I am a.natural of sorts. I can just women and, generally, I get a good response. The.problem is not understanding the.hardware level code of.their program because: I wasn’t taught, society propagandizes, was too distracted.too put the pieces together and make conjectures. In every LTR I’ve just ended up confused as to what the feck is going on.
    I’d have to say I am something of a natural and.women often approach me. It’s beyond getting.ioi’s. I’ve had many women 2 stalked me. In high school one girl from the trio of ‘it’ girls pined and then approached me. She I told her no. She wanted to know why. I told.her it.was.because she was stupid. She cried. My cousin gave me shit. I wasn’t being deliberately cruel. I was just raised in chaos and violence and had a mean streak. Much less so now.
    In essence, my problem isn’t ‘getting the girl’ but filtering for a decent one. Right now I’m just chilling. No need for women as I’m focused on my own stuff: building a business, etc.
    I have a problem with something very basic and fundamental: I don’t even want to touch people at this point. It’s not easy explain this.
    Briefly, I almost died 3 times by 16-drowning, bleeding and car crash. 4 count nearly being shot in the eye. At 18 I saw my first death at work. After that I had about a dozen friends die by my late 20’s-dui accidents, suicides and overdoses. At 32 my older brother died-suicide.
    I’ve kinda.been through the.mill.
    I view finding this site as a painful but necessary gift so I can get some enjoyment out of women over the next 20 years before I croak.
    I’ve had this female calico cat for.a year. Never had a female cat. Had males and dogs. It’s pretty interesting to see the similiarities to women. It’s helping me to learn give.kindness to a.female without feeling like it’s a blood-sucking emotional vampire-my premise of women my whole life.
    I have an avid interest in int’l relations, politics, economics and what I’m seeing over.the last few.years is.very discouraging. Hence, this last year has been a.double whammy for me: women and the world as we know it- gone to hell in a hand basket.

  82. All the talk of divorce jarred my memory.
    The following is a true story. Every word.

    I met a woman in a university course in the 90’s. Mid-twenties, blonde, great figure. I don’t go for.blondes but I made an exception for her.
    Her story: her Mom was a wasp who married some jewish beta bucks who’d made a wack of cash in retail-owned several stores. I’m not sure if ‘Debbie’ was his daughter or step-daughter. Instict says the former.
    Debbie was nutz. Her step-dad ‘knew’ people. She had a daughter with some guy but wanted out. Step-dad gets her a referral to a ruthless italian divorce lawyer. She goes to see him. He asks her what he wants. She says sole custody, total control, blah, blah. He quotes. She pays. Within a few days her husband is arrested and charged with assault. She gets sole custody, $ and total control. The lawyer paid a cop and hubby went to jail.

    Ruthless bitch eh? I let her blow me once. After she called in a bomb threat to postpone a final exam I lost her number. Effing crazy bitch. You would never guess to look at her. She had a squeaky clean girl next door emerged from her shell vibe. HB-8.5 with a great smile. Fucked over her husband. No regret, no remorse.

  83. Tooting my own horn, I’ve always had a great outlook on life and had a good personality. I genuinely have empathy for people, and it’s shown throughout my life with most all people I meet feeling like they can tell me anything and I won’t judge them. 99% of people that meet me love me.

    Anyhow, my wife’s aunt is real close to me and our kids, and last year, I made her aware of some of the problems my wife and I were having because at that point I didn’t give a F about getting divorced and losing the kids. Her aunt fully sided with me and thinks her niece is fucking up. Her aunt knows I still love my wife, still have the fire for her, but that she doesn’t.

    I’m saying all this because I had the idea that since I still want to work things out, I can use something similar to the “Boyfriend Destroyer” routine, but call it the “Wife Divorcing Me Destroyer” routine where I confide in her mother and her aunt and basically tell them that I’ve tried to work things out, I’ve put up with living in separate rooms for 8 years, I’ve put up with her losing her fire for me and basically abandoning me emotionally all this time, but I still want to work things out. But my wife simply doesn’t act like she cares any longer. I basically want to confide in them about how upset I am, and then “RELUCTANTLY” tell them some of the F’d up shit she’s done (without going into detail, like doing something involving another man that looks really bad and looks like infidelity on her part) I’d bring this up to them, but under the promise that they can’t say anything or it may blow up our family if she gets upset for revealing some of her dirt. I just want to have her mother and aunt fully on my side so they can perhaps talk some sense into her. And if not, I’ll have the ammo in court that I tried with several of her family members to figure out how to fix the situation.

    Any thoughts on this? P.S. Rollo, don’t mean to hijack the thread.

  84. I’m looking forward to seeing YaReally’s thoughts on this post, particular in how the pLTR differs from an open relationship.

    Personally, the idea of something a little deeper than just “another plate” appeals to me, but I also get that this may just be the product of a lack of experience (and perhaps I just misunderstand what “plate” means). To me though, it seems like a lot of guys are in denial of just how much they want to bond emotionally with a chick. As Rollo says, men are the true Romantics

    They go on and on for a long time about “Yeah man, I just want to fuck pussy. Screw emotions and all that bullshit!” And yet…they’re actions say otherwise. I have a friend who I’d try to introduce to game, but he was very resistant to much of it. He really took to “Mode One,” when I bought him a copy and asked him to read it as a favor to me…but something was still off.

    He would say “Yeah, I don’t give a fuck about this chick,” but then the next day he would complain to me that the she didn’t respond to his call, and she was off fucking some other guy. I’m thinking “Yeah, that’s what chicks do – they fuck you while you stay alpha and they move on to another dude if you falter, or if they’re looking to wrangle some beta bucks. You just keep doing your own thing and replace her…eventually she comes back around or you’ve got some other chick.” I didn’t say this directly, I tried to hint towards it, and I could tell he wasn’t really receptive to the message.

    Later he told me he confronted this chick and kept pushing her to admit that she was “just using him for sex” (again in my mind, why does that matter if you don’t actually care about what she thinks?). After pushing and pushing, she finally says “Yes, I just wanted to fuck that time and I’m not interested in you anymore” Then he gets even more angry and tells her off.

    He recently got married. Everything just seemed perfect with her, and she just happens to be at the age of the Epiphany Phase. From what he’s told me, it does sound like he’s managed to balance the alpha fucks and beta bucks aspects with her well…but I can’t help but feel like it’s a time bomb waiting to happen. I fully admit though that it’s mainly my skepticism for marriage – if any marriage will probably work, his seems like it’s a good candidate from what I’ve heard.

    I just can’t help but think – what do you REALLY get from monogamy that you can’t get from a setup like the pLTR situation that YaReally has laid (my ideal goal)? Clearly, there is a need for something more than just the physical…but why give up the variety for that?

    Roosh, to me, seems like another example. For the longest time all he did was yammer on about “flags” and how women are really only good for fucking…but now all of a sudden it’s “You guys, this pick up stuff is bullshit. Y’all are wasting your lives, you need something DEEPER! Join my cult and try to find religious virgins to be monogamous with” Or whatever BS “neo-masculinity” is supposed to be – I admit that I have no interest in his new “realizations.”

    I mean seriously, relationships ARE what YOU put into them (after factoring in a realistic understanding of female nature). If you want something more than just fucking her, then invest the effort into learning how to get that outcome. That doesn’t nullify the entirety of established pickup knowledge – it just means a refocusing on a different aspect. Most pick up advice focuses on getting laid because most guys have difficulty getting laid with the girls they want.

    To me, it seems Roosh spent years struggling against himself, and then sets up an effigy of his own limiting beliefs as the symbol of what PUA is all about and rails against PUA as the major obstacle to his happiness. In his book, Bang, he talks about how he nexts a girl if she doesn’t give it up on the third date. Then, on his blog, he complains that women give it up too easy, and the problem with American women is that they are all sluts.
    If you screen for women who give it up easily, then you will only get with women who give it up easily.

    To me it seems like he could have avoided a huge load of drama and wasted effort, and making himself look like a caricature by just taking a second to realize that sex, by itself, wasn’t doing it for him. But I dunno, maybe I’m just engaging in mental masturbation – I haven’t hit the point where I’m regularly pulling yet. Still though, I can’t help but the get the feeling that even in the midst of my embracing incel MGTOWism for the past few years, I’ve been more happy than Roosh has been.

    Yeah, I fully admit that I’m nowhere near where I want to be…but I’ve learned to accept a lot of what my life has to offer, and I just keep plugging away at solving the rest. I feel like Roosh attained what he THOUGHT he wanted, but never realized along the way that “being happy” is itself a skill that is independent of getting laid. Certainly, getting laid makes it MUCH easier (I would assume, anyway), but it’s not enough by itself.

    Shifting gears:

    @YaReally (and for my question below: I invite everyone to chime in on)
    Your advice has been really helpful for me, I’ve been putting it into good use this week – I think it’s helped me make a breakthrough (I won’t really know for sure until a few more months out – it could just be another case of novel insights giving a temporary boost). I meant to write up a mini-FR on this post as a kind of “hey, look how your advice is working for me. Thanks,” but then I got lost in the rambling above. I’ll post it soon, I hope.

    In the meantime, I have another question for you:
    Do you think it’s important to get experience in a traditional, monogamous relationship before attempting to get into a pLTR?

    The pLTR you’ve described is my ideal situation I’d like to have. While I didn’t have a structured outline of how it would work like you have, I had a rough idea of something similar. So for the past five years or so, I’ve held in my mind that I would not get involved in a monogamous relationship at all, because I wanted to hold out for my ideal.

    Recently though, my friends have gotten me to doubt whether that’s the right play. They say that they think a regular relationship is a necessary step before attempting multiple girls at the same time. They say that I’m acting like a virgin who refuses to hook up with skanks because I’m “holding out for someone special” – that I’m intimidated by my lack of experience, and therefore avoid getting the necessary experience because of fear. I had let them convince me recently, but hearing your talk about pLTR makes me wonder again if I didn’t have the right idea before:

    My prior thoughts were that I don’t have enough of an abundance mindset to “survive” a monogamous relationship. I feared that, since I know I ultimately want to be with multiple girls, any decision to “go steady” with a girl would really just be a self-admission that I can’t handle doing the work it takes to become alpha enough for girls to want to adapt to my relationship style preference. I feared that giving in on that front would lead to a slippery slope where I regress more and more into beta behaviors (as I’ve seen many of my friends do) and end up in a worse situation than I am now.

    I thought that as much as it sucks to sexless, I would rather leverage that hunger to force myself to become alpha enough where multiple girls would rather share me than risk losing access to my cock. I figured that the subcomms and habits necessary to properly setup a pLTR (mltr, poly, open relationsihp, whatever) were fundamentally different than those for a normal monogamous LTR, and that I would therefore be best served focusing on how to go for what I really want rather than adopt habits that might be counterproductive to the kind of relationship structure I really want.

    What are your thoughts? Should I be open to a monogamous relationship (if the opportunity presents itself, it hasn’t really yet) just to get my feet wet?

    @Everyone else (particularly Rollo)
    Just to re-iterate, I’m interested in everyone’s thoughts on the question just above this sentence. Thanks ahead of time for everyone’s perspective.

  85. @newlyaloof

    Applying pressure indirectly via family feels a whole lot like ‘negotiating desire by proxy’. You *might* see short-term gains or it *may* act as a buffer until you build true desire back by becoming a high SMV man with options, but it’s not a long-term strategy that will get you ultimately what you want.

    That said, 8 years is a metric shit-tonne of negative momentum to overcome.

    If you were a man with options, firmly in his frame and an abundance mindset, would you be putting up with this bullshit?!?

    Instead of trying to ‘win her back’, your plan *must* be to become that high SMV man with options who knows his value… she must be the one who gives you a compelling reason to stay! Passive dread will be your friend.

    Work on yourself, for yourself, get your financials in order. Be that guy who can blow everything up and land on his feet running.

  86. @aloof

    Could you define your best outcomes?


    What are your thoughts? Should I be open to a monogamous relationship (if the opportunity presents itself, it hasn’t really yet) just to get my feet wet?

    A young musician asked me if his second album should be a three disc set like the Weeknd’s trilogy or a visual album like Beyoncé’s 2013 release. I asked what his first album was like and he said he didn’t have one, and it turns out he has never put a song on iTunes or YouTube.

    Your friend sounds like a mix of Angry Beta and Beta Bucks, do not model alpha after him.

  87. @newlyaloof

    …where I confide in her mother and her aunt and basically tell them that I’ve tried to work things out, I’ve put up with living in separate rooms for 8 years, I’ve put up with her losing her fire for me and basically abandoning me emotionally all this time, but I still want to work things out. But my wife simply doesn’t act like she cares any longer. I basically want to confide in them about how upset I am, and then “RELUCTANTLY” tell them some of the F’d up shit she’s done…

    Never appeal to the feminine for sympathy. You will receive nothing but less respect for you in response.

  88. @Pellaeon

    What are your thoughts? Should I be open to a monogamous relationship (if the opportunity presents itself, it hasn’t really yet) just to get my feet wet?

    The basic rule of thumb is that you as a man should go seek out what you desire, spin plates, keep women around you that you like. You keep spinning plates, and you wait. When one of those women who you keep around expresses a desire to lock you down, she must enter your frame.

    Monogamy works fine, so long as it is the woman who comes to the realization that she has found the man she wants to be monogamous with.

  89. @Dutchmen
    I’m just wondering if that ‘faaaaaaack’ was for me?
    fyi: you can call me bobbo. the bitchin’ as a last name is my joke to myself re:80’s surfer slang, ie. ‘bitchin dude’. Im a pretty bitchin guy: loyal, honest, tough but fair and generous.
    If that was a faaaaak on my behalf tell me your opinion. I’m on the verge.of asking rollo to correspond via e-mail. I knd of need some help getting some perspective onlife, women, red pill truths, etc.

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