Open Relationships


During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

709 comments on “Open Relationships

  1. Crazy ass Emily said-

    ” As a man, you have the ‘right’ to not have to worry that old men/women may try to take advantage of you, even though you are a 14 year old girl. The internet is absolutely full of men whining about why they cant fuck 14 year olds, posting pictures of underage girls. Many on the manosphere and other forums actively encourage going for underage girls cause thats when we ‘have our prime.’”

    Well then, someone violated my rights about 5 times then. Where’s Gloria Allred??

    Women can’t be sexual predators? Really? How deep is the hole your head is in girl? Your list just spits out the anti-male propaganda that is becoming laughable old hat.

    Let’s see here….

    ” When applying for a job/promotion, the odds are skewed in the males favor. The more prestigious the job, the more this is true. ”

    I work in a multi national company that has more female exectutives ( EVP’s ) than male, soooo….wtf?

    ” At work, men have the ‘right’ to not deal with nearly as much sexual harassment.”

    My company cracked down hard on ANY thing slightly resembling sexual harassment a decade ago, while you were in grade school, soooo….wtf are you talking about?

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to have both a career and children, and not be called selfish and uncaring.”

    Because we aren’t selfish and uncaring when we take on the massive responsibilities, personal-professional, and most importantly LEGAL, to have a family. Most females want to take on more than they are capable of and choose to axe the family first to selfishly pursue careers that mostly they aren’t even qualified for in the first place. Seems to be an awful way for civilization to proceed.

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to walk in dangerous areas/late at night without having to fear rape. As a man, you have a faaar lower chance of being raped, as long as you can stay out of prison. Meanwhile, women have a far higher chance of being raped, the younger you are, the more this is true. The odds of a teenage girl being raped are despicably high.”

    Lmfao. As one who is in very close proximity to ” dangerous areas ” I don’t fear being raped by a man as much as I might fear being shot in the head by a man…or cop…or even a woman. Rape is awful. Gunshots ain’t no joke either. Dangerous areas are DANGEROUS.

    What’s with the FI and this damn Rape Drumbeat?

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to not have to deal with being objectified and called a slut for how you dress.”

    Women should be more modest in dress. Period. I figure a religious woman would cosign this, but a feminazi would not. As a father of daughters I understand that woman can/do dress like SLUTS on far too many occasions. displaying your body sexually will end with you being ” objectified “. Women objectify themselves first.

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to express themselves sexually without being harassed by men and women.”

    I don’t even understand what this means, soooo……

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to not have to deal with verbal harassment every time they are walking in an even slightly crowded urban area.”

    I’ve never seen this Verbal Harassment you speak of. I’ve seen men speak to women. I’ve seen men comment on a woman’s ass hanging out of her clothing. I’ve seen men comment on women’s breasts and nipples sticking out of their tops. I’ve seen men call women cute, sexy, beautiful.

    Any woman that is that sensitive should stay in the house or don a Burka before leaving.

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to be able to do certain things incorrectly (driving, work, using electronics, finance etc.) without having to fear other people attributing it to my whole sex.”

    Lol. Awwww. Btw, I don’t do any of these things incorrectly. Soooo…..

    “Men have the ‘right’ to be expressive without being called a bitch.”

    Naw, bitches be bitchin’. there is a difference.

    ” Men have the ‘right’ to be far less worried about their appearance than a female. if a man is 10 pounds overweight, there will be little to no consequences in terms of dating or career.”

    GTFOH!!! LMOA!!!!! Now you’re just being silly to fill in your list.

    “And that’s just some of the problems we face in the West. I’m not even going to get into Africa/the Islamic World/Far east”

    I live in America. I really don’t give a damn about what goes on elsewhere. None of my business. The places you mention have much, much bigger problems besides the treatment of women. Death by war and starvation can be more devastating than a denial of western feminism.

    You’re very touchy over stuff that hasn’t happened to you. Rollo is on point about you sounding like a 60 year old. Hmmmm….

  2. @Rollo
    By AWARE. 79% of victims of harassment were female.

    The other thing.. most homicides, suicides and combat deaths are also caused by men. So yeah… :/

    “90% chance she’s taking a women’s studies class this semester. Probably writing a paper on “The Manosphere”
    Actually I am registered for sociology of gender course next semester. Def will write about this if I get the chance.

    Course females can be sexual predators. But you don’t have reddit communities with tens of thousands of women drooling over pictures of naked 13 year old boys.

    I usually dress very modestly. But I’m not going to cover my whole face and body just so men show some fucking decency. And yes, you ask any woman if she has been catcalled (verbally abused) on the street and she will almost certainly tell you she has – often daily. If I go downtown it’s pretty much certain I’ll be catcalled.

    Bringing up the treatment of women in the east is important because it is because of feminism that women are not treated like that in the West. Example: my friend’s father back in her home country (Senegal) married another woman even though he was already married. Her mother won’t divorce because people of their culture won’t marry a woman in her 40s.

    The rest of your post is nonsense. Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Ooh my company this my company that blah blah. Oooh emily = insanity. Of course!
    Actuaally most girls of any age would agree w everything I said. Yep.

  3. Lol. You’re just too damn cute. Catcall…please. Ohhh somebody finds me attractive and verbalized it in a way that feminism disproves of. Call the law.

    Girls have been brainwashed if they believe and agree with what you state. Not surprising though.

  4. “sociology of gender course”

    Is that what they’re calling it these days?

    “Well, there you have it gentlemen, subjectively defined “harassment” is equitable to combat casualties, workplace death, homicide and suicide rates among men.”

    lol. But we already KNEW that!

  5. Harassment = touching female employees without consent, sending them lewd emails, sexual suggestions, sexual favors for promotions etc.
    I never compared harassment to combat deaths. But you can’t really complain that males get killed more in combat, or by suicides, or by homicides when they are the ones causing those things.

    And Blax you know full well that men say far more vulgar things than a simple ‘you’re beautiful’ on the street.

  6. Em,

    ” vulgar ” is subjective.

    I don’t see guys being vulgar in their comments on the street. But hey, that’s anecdotal.

  7. Aw, Emily got catcalled? Don’t worry, honey, in only a few years men won’t even notice you at all.

    Rollo: agree how odd it is that 20 year old Emily writes as though she’s a 60 year old postmenopausal feminist.

  8. @Emily,
    I don’t hold you responsible for your crazy (new found convictions) thinking, I hold your beta, SPINELESS bf, for triggering, crazy stuff coming out of your mouth . I know all the frustration that comes from the lack of “tingles”, in the old days (in high school) when you were sexually “active”(slut with all the hawt boys), none of the current convictions mattered, cause, you loved it when being TAKEN, and, that dick, Deep in your throat.

  9. @Emily: “But you can’t really complain that males get killed more in combat, or by suicides, or by homicides when they are the ones causing those things.”
    I cannot believe my eyes! They had it coming? What a sexist pig.

  10. Emily
    Harassment = touching female employees without consent, sending them lewd emails, sexual suggestions, sexual favors for promotions etc. by a man who isn’t cute or hawt.


  11. Yeah, it’s “harassment” until she turns 51:

    More than two thirds of those over 45 told how they had walked into a room and been ‘completely unnoticed’ by the opposite sex.
    More than half said they felt ‘left on the shelf’ and judged negatively simply because of their age.

    Only 15 per cent of those over 45 declared themselves as having high or very high confidence while nearly half described themselves as not very confident at all.

    But why, with all their achievements and experience, were these women so lacking in self-belief?

    Four in ten said missing out on male attention was a factor while for more than half, the presence of younger women at a social event was totally confidence sapping.

    So, once again, women’s sexual strategy (as well as their intrasexual competitive strategy) is SEXIST not to mention conveniently duplicitous.

    Put that in your college study punkin.

  12. Emily

    Actuaally most girls of any age would agree w everything I said.

    Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, dearie.

  13. I wonder if Emily has an open relationship with Jesus? Go to Mass on Sunday, worship fashion on Monday, worship romance novel on Tuesday, Girls Night Out on Wednesday to worship the Chippendales…

    How’s the cockteasing going, Emily? Still torturing that young man, giving him the blueballs while you tell him “Only a few years more, dear, then I’ll be able to marry you…”?

  14. Emily is laughing at her boyfriend and laughing some more at God. She’s using God for not fucking her boyfriend . But, God! My boyfriend doesn’t give me “tingles”, forgive me God, for using you.

    Those God damn “tingles”.

  15. @emily

    But you can’t really complain that males get killed more by suicides when they are the ones causing those things

    so the male suicide rate is caused by males killing themselves, and the reason they are killed themselves, that is the cause, is what?

    Likewise for combat fighting, what are the men fighting for, the cause?

  16. ” But you can’t really complain that males get killed more by suicides when they are the ones causing those things”

    This right here is actually offensive in it’s outright ignorance.

  17. Rollo – dropped in to say Happy New Year! Just purchased your 2nd book. Keep up the good work, you have a lot of MGTOW fans who may not comment as often but read every post top to bottom.. so please ignore the hate from troll MGTOWs (most of these are recent Red Pill converts still finding their way).

  18. @Blaximus, Rollo

    This right here is actually offensive in it’s outright ignorance.

    Woman and man get drunk and screw, woman has regrets: his fault.
    Woman marries man, fucks his best friend, gets divorce when she gets caught: his fault.
    Man kills himself because women have roundly rejected him, accused him of rape, and/or divorced him when he did nothing wrong: his fault.

    Emily seems to get the way the world works just fine.

  19. Dammit men these are the exact viewpoints of my 21 yo daughter,youngest child protected spoiled FI brainwashed from early age.Has mangina shackup boyfriend sexless relationship by Clinton standards maybe?Totaly full of sht I love her but she is in for hard times and rude awakenings.Hope I’m there to help pick up the pieces.

    I want to call this generation the what the hell happened gen.This mangina BF of hers is deeply steeped in beta game see him work it all over town,why is she such a sucker for this bullshit.

    My friends computer malfunctioned so he took it outside and shot it I should have done this to the television years ago, parental guidance suggested given ridiculed and ignored.It seems there are to many ideals founded in misinformed imaginings and these kids have internalized these ideals to the point of no return.

    I own up to my shit and avoid any kind of victim status at all cost.This brainwashing is incredulous;she says all the people together are like one big person and she is the eyes the big strong people are the hands and should build or do what she wants because she has vision.And this kid doesn’t use drugs,the manginas are off the hook of course,maybe because they have feelings.

    This modern world is in big trouble with a tired and failing infrastructure,terrorist immigrants and a fresh generation of boys that never took shop class it wasn’t even offered, no respect for the working man or his productivety.Who is going to fix it, some boy that complains about a splinter or blister or you hurt my feelings.

    In Aristotles Nicomacean ethics on science the highest form of science is political science as it must have an understanding of all the other sciences to be effective.This so called civilization has a way to go even to catch up to 2000 yrs ago.

    Emily we are getting off the topic of open relationships in the hope of opening the eyes of one person at a time.These men have obviously survived many hard winters and deep well bottoms to provide the things you take for granted.Please pay attention,take what you can use and leave the rest for later.

  20. “she says all the people together are like one big person and she is the eyes . . .”

    The eyes need to report to the brain.

  21. “But you can’t really complain that males get killed more in combat, or by suicides, or by homicides when they are the ones causing those things.”

    That’s not very Christian. Or human, for that matter.

  22. “The eyes need to report to the brain.”
    The brain needs to be more critical of the ideals and understand the current input.In order to make the right choices.

  23. Are males involved in combat protecting their homes and way of life of their loved ones?
    Are male suicides the seeming only solution to a temporary problem doing the best they can with their current information?
    How many homicides are crimes of passion or a way to get goods or respect?

  24. “Are males involved in combat protecting their homes and way of life of their loved ones?
    Are male suicides the seeming only solution to a temporary problem doing the best they can with their current information?
    How many homicides are crimes of passion or a way to get goods or respect?”

    You realize you are asking these questions to a person who has absolutely no understanding of either reality or cause and effect. There’s nothing but ideological blindness there. No one could make that statement if they had a single nugget of reason, social intelligence, or empathy.

  25. look..
    War – caused by men. Therefore, combat casualties are caused by men.
    Homicide – 90% caused by men. 75% victims are men. lol, we should be the ones complaining.
    Suicide. Actually, this is a pretty big problem in our society.. I’ll admit that. Certainly male’s have more responsibilities in our society and thus feel more stressed. They also can’t talk about their problems because other males expect them to act masculine.
    But don’t forget, women attempt suicide at almost the same rate. We just use methods like overdosing from pills rather than shooting ourselves. overdosing is less likely to be ‘successful.’

    “She’s using God for not fucking her boyfriend”
    How does that make any sense? I want to have sex, but after marriage.

    Well under the law, that isn’t rape.
    Women often get the benefit of doubt because many men try to get us drunk in order for us to have sex with them. I’ve seen that happen. Hell, just yesterday I overheard some guyfriends talking about a threesome where the guy got the two girls drunk and then got them to have sex with him. Getting girls drunk in order to have sex with them is pretty much considered normal among guys and it shouldn’t be.
    The reverse happens far less often. And I can’t imagine any of my friends going ‘oh I got two guys drunk and then gave them drugs and fucked them both.’ No way.
    But I’ll find you the statistics…
    Btw, Milo really needs to get off twitter. Alpha males spend their whole day tweeting? Yeah right.

  26. Suicides aren’t caused because men “can’t talk about their problems”. Feminists make this claim as a way of denigrating masculinity and promoting the feminization of men.
    War is not “caused by men” either. This is true in general but particularly true in a representative capitalistic republic where all women can vote. It would be more accurate (though not accurate) to say that women in the US send men out to war so they can maintain a certain quality of life and lifestyle.

  27. Liz, I wasn’t talking to you, and I don’t want to. Be a good RPW and make your husband a sandwich or something.

    Anyway, another thing about the suicides. Actually, since 1960 both male and female suicides have decreased. Female suicides have just decreased more since we’ve gotten rights. But even in 1960, when society was far more patriarchal, males were still 3-4 times more likely to commit suicide.

  28. Is male depression an immature selfish emotion brought on by his own unmet expectations and other peoples unrealistic expectations?

  29. As a side note, I’ve never been called a RPW so often in my life as I have from Emily in TRM.
    Certainly I’ve never called myself red pill. Guess it’s reflexive defensiveness. Some sort of juvenile “burn” thing.

  30. I’ve always ignored Emily as she is a distraction from intelligent conversations here. Largely see responding to her as a waste of time. I took the day off work to use up,vacation days so I have time this. Orning. Emm’s comments are so stupid and lame it made name want to barf up my coffee.

    “Women often get the benefit of doubt because many men try to get us drunk in order for us to have sex with them. I’ve seen that happen. Hell, just yesterday I overheard some guyfriends talking about a threesome where the guy got the two girls drunk and then got them to have sex with him. Getting girls drunk in order to have sex with them is pretty much considered normal among guys and it shouldn’t be.”

    Unless these girls have a gun to their head nobody is forcing them to drink. What you are demonstrating is a pure lack of understanding about personal responsibility. For what it’s worth, I’ve had four different women (ones I recall) try to seduce me into sex with drink. Only one I resisted as it was a weird situation friend of my sisters. These women knew I was reluctant to fuck them and they plied me with booze. Was it somehow their fault I chose to drink? Hell no! Fucking retarded to even consider that. So it goes both ways little girl. When women want to fuck they will go to great lengths to get some dick. Your comment also makes it look like women are stupid and brainless if they have no common sense to turn down an offer to drink. Are you suggesting females have less intelligence and ability to think? Like no self-discipline? Don’t answer, I’m being rhetorical.

    Don’t try to tell us what our norms should be. Just STFU for once.

    Simple copy and paste for a literal interpretation:
    “Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father”– Genesis 19:34

    If one takes the Bible seriously looks like drinking and sex go well together.

    Go read your Bible with legs crossed and give yourself an orgasm with Jesus.

  31. 80% of statistics are invented out of thin air and can be twisted to support any hypothesis.While I don’t question the effects I do believe the word caused is being misused in this instance.

  32. ” . . . male’s . . . can’t talk about their problems because other males expect them to act masculine.”

    More knowledge imparted to ignorant men from Emily’s lived experience as a male. How would we ever know about our lives as men among men if it weren’t for her.

    And I’m sure gonna miss the blues.

    ” I can’t imagine any of my friends going ‘oh I got two guys drunk and then gave them drugs and fucked them both.”

    The report is that it was two women who got one guy drunk and they both fucked him. They insisted on calling him “daddy.” They even had the audacity, after all that, to claim to be God fearing women, just like you.

    “Liz, I wasn’t talking to you, and I don’t want to.”

    You are displaying a remarkable lack of competence in your endeavour.

    ” . . . women attempt suicide at almost the same rate. We just use methods like overdosing from pills rather than shooting ourselves. overdosing is less likely to be ‘successful.’”

    Yep, can’t even do that as well as a man. Women have no sense of direction. The place you’re lookin’ for is down the road, not across the street.

  33. “I wasn’t talking to you either.”
    Yeah, you were just quoting my post and commenting on it without addressing me directly. Very mature.

    “I’ve never called myself red pill”
    Oh you haven’t? My bad. I guess I just assumed you were a rpw because of how much you suck up to the terpers here.

    stuffinbox, it is possible. Certainly society expects more of males, and often they don’t match those expectations and will consider suicide.
    I admit I don’t really know the exact causes of it. All I’m sayin’ is that the notion that feminism has made the world so difficult for men that the suicide rate is skyrocketing is just false. Suicide rates among men were 20% higher in 1950.
    Those stats are from the national center for health statistics.

  34. Emily doesn’t understand what the supreme ecstasy of the masculine actually it. It is what drives men to suicide, go to war and why a man benefits from ejaculating into his girlfriend.

    That’s a tease Emily. Do you know what the essential masculine ecstasy is?

  35. Women get drunk INTENTIONALLY, deliberately to remove all the guilt inhibitors in order to fuck the alpha tingle.
    That is the only reason women get drunk ( when out partying).
    Yeah, go get drunk and drive and kill someone, and then say : I was intoxicated and therefore, I’m not to be blamed.
    Emily, when you fucked all the hawt boys in high school, did they make you drunk to be sexually “active”, or you got drunk on your own? (in your case, you didn’t even need ANY inhibitor blockers)
    Emily is saying : Don’t go to jail if you don’t want to get raped(she doesn’t mind if men get raped in jail), and I tell her, don’t go walking in a bad neighborhood wearing yoga pants if you don’t want to get raped.

  36. Prima: So, you got wounded during the war, eh?
    Secundus: Yeah, being confined to a wheelchair with one eye really sucks too.
    Prima: What were you wearing?
    Secundus: Huh? What kind of question is that? My uniform, of course.
    Prima: Figures, don’t come crying to me, you were asking for it.

  37. Emily,
    Had your bf been the one who asked you not to have sex till married, he would’ve given you a true Godly “tingles”.

  38. @emilyInsanity

    War – caused by men. Therefore, combat casualties are caused by men.

    On her history exam:

    What were the causes of World War II? Men
    What were the causes of World War I? Men
    What were the causes of the fall of Rome? Men
    Name 10 famous women rulers that engaged in war? Not possible

  39. A posting today, a guy writes:

    Not a care in the world and just time for fun. We probably had sex 10 times a week. After becoming engaged, my wife/then fiancé told me she wanted to wait until marriage to make it special. I disagreed with the idea, but went along with it.

    Guess what happens next? Oh wait:

    She reassured me many times that our sex life would resume once we were married.

    So all good?


  40. According to Emily this form of birth-fraud is justified:

    Men being held legally, financially and emotionally accountable to children they didn’t father and/or were unaware that they didn’t father is justified.

    According to Emily ambiguously defined ‘sexist words’ constitute sexual harassment in gramar school:

    Westernizing justice, social or enforced, prioritizes the feminine concept. This is why the male is the presumed rapist in the above college campus poster when in fact neither sex could give consent to sex while drunk – if we have an equal application of that justice.

    When a man bails on his parental responsibility, there is panoply of social and legal contingencies that enforce feminine-primary justice. Whether that’s the socially encouraged insistency that a good Beta provider assume his parental investment, or child support laws that garnish his wages the ‘justice’ is still the feminine’s concept.

    When a woman deliberately perpetrates birth-fraud the cuckold is still held legally and financially responsible (to say nothing of the emotional manipulation he’s expected to accept) for a child he didn’t sire. DNA testing is actively being repressed in many countries to make the woman the sole arbiter of if that man will ever have the right to know his paternity – and even in cut & dried cases of birth-fraud no woman is ever held retroactively responsible to reimburse a man’s financial investment in that child.

    According to Emily this is a crime:

    This is not a crime:


    Not a Crime:

    Read these and tell me which sex’s concept of justice supersedes the other?

  41. Wow. “Emily” has a lot of hostility towards Liz and Dragonfly now that I peruse her comments. In fact most of it is verbatim what Insanity spat at them.

    Insanity = Emily = December (on BGR’s blog)

  42. ^Nope.
    Also I’ve seen Liz commenting on Insanity’s blog. Don’t think they have any problems. And I didn’t have problems with Dragonfly.

    Can we just end this Insanity = Emily thing? Christ.

  43. Emily “All I’m sayin’ is that the notion that feminism has made the world so difficult for men that the suicide rate is skyrocketing is just false.”

    She’s a closet feminist too.
    All my ONS, were drunk, aggressive, horny women, who were out to get lucky (and I obliged), almost all of them told me, they got drunk “intoxicated” in order to get fucked. Only one woman, I didn’t fuck, cause she threw up and I felt sorry for her, she slept in my bed and I didn’t touch her. In the morning, she told me to thank my mother!!.

  44. I’m guessing emily is = or > 50. Hence, she comes here to get the only attention from men available to her. Guess a vibrating egg cant replace a hard c$ck.

  45. Your combat deaths squid ink doesn’t hold water:

    Men may vote if, and only if, they agree they will face death if required (mandatory conscription). Women have no such obligation, but they do get to vote for the governments that can potentially send men to meet death. Again, regardless of how you feel about the draft, women have the right to vote without agreeing to be drafted. Men don’t.

  46. Can we just end this Insanity = Emily thing? Christ.

    Fine. Emily = Inane Willfully Ignorant Cock Tease will replace it.

  47. Liz:“I’ve never called myself red pill”

    Emily: “Oh you haven’t? My bad. I guess I just assumed you were a rpw because of how much you suck up to the terpers here.”

    Which brings up a cross reference in Rollo’s Appeals to Reason essay in which he stated:

    “I’m on record for stating that every woman is a red pill woman, it’s just getting them to drop the feminine-primary, psychological pretense and cop to red pill truths that’s the trick.”


    You can’t eat your cake and have it (too).

  48. My post on that topic:
    “I don’t think I’m red pill, but I do enjoy thinking about and discussing gender dynamics/personal motivations/and I really enjoy reading personal anecdotes and observations in the sphere. I’m not sure a woman can be truly red pill…not even sure the result would be good. I think Ayn Rand was about as close as a female can come to ‘red pill’, and she was a pretty grim customer, from the sound of things.

    I was very young when I determined that everyone is motivated by self-interest. It seemed such a revolutionary idea at the time. I was about seven or eight and had never heard of Darwin yet. I’ve learned since that society tweaks this human ‘selfish gene’ biological programming with different forms of conditioning in direct and indirect ways to influence behavior.
    What I didn’t realize until reading the red pill forums is the tweaking is largely gender-specific. I knew there were perverse incentives, but I didn’t realize the full extent of those perverse incentives.

    It seems to me that “red pill truth” should be a recipe to improve one’s life. The big picture is life enhancement, not to lose oneself so much in a Zeno’s paradox dissecting the reality of everyone’s individual motivations ever more finely in the interest of “keeping it real” to the point that music is just noise, the beauty of life lost, and everyone fungible. There’s value in things even if that value cannot be easily assessed in terms of dollars and cents.

    I’m kind of on the fence about women and ‘red pill’ forums. I think what BV says about male spaces is true. On the internet that’s largely up to the host…if the host wants a male only forum, he should have a male only forum. If he wants a forum where women are free to share their thoughts/ideas, it’s no longer a male-only space. I assume when a host indicates that female opinion is welcome, he means female opinion is welcome. If I encounter a lot of hostility that would indicate I’m not welcome, I don’t stay (I wouldn’t post at Jezebel).

    I’ve posted in lots of places that were ipso facto almost entirely male. Women don’t usually like the sort of debate and discussion that interests me. But it’s different in the sphere…women obviously love, love, love to talk gender relations.”

  49. Lmao.

    Really. Emily is a true comedian.

    Shits and giggles department. In college I got drunk with a female friend. Actually, I got HAMMERED. While fading in and out of consciousness, I came to once to find her blowing me ( I couldn’t even feel it ) and then a little later she had mounted me.

    Women can and do. Emily you live in an alternate reality.

    I wasn’t raped or attacked. I kinda appreciate her efforts, but I was in no shape to really contribute. She wasn’t my type ( skinny HB4 at best ), but ugly chicks need dick too. I wasn’t ashamed or insulted. I just learned to hold my alcohol better, especially around ugly, horny chicks.

    I have taught all of the young women in my life to not get drunk in the company of young men, lest you awaken cockstruck. There IS something WRONG with drinking substances that lower inhibitions, then complaining about the results. Don’t. Get. Drunk. That’s just my opinion. How about some self control and personal responsibility?

    But people who think like you do have been emboldened by our bullshit legal system, which is hellbent on prosecution due to bad judgement and hurt feelz.

  50. I met Bill Cosby 80 years ago and I asked him to help me expand my Taco business, we met, and he touched me “inappropriately” and I stormed out. I met him again to ask him how to expand my Taco business, he touched me “inappropriately” AGAIN! , then one day he asked me to come to his mansion and I went! , when there (to discuss my taco business) I was drugged, and my ass was kind of sticky. I’m very hurt.

  51. “I have taught all of the young women in my life to not get drunk in the company of young men, lest you awaken cockstruck. There IS something WRONG with drinking substances that lower inhibitions, then complaining about the results. Don’t. Get. Drunk. That’s just my opinion. How about some self control and personal responsibility?”

    The fact that you don’t give the same advice to all the young men in your life says a lot. You realize that it’s far more risky for women to be drunk in a room full of strangers than it is for a man. And you are right for thinking so – 99% of convicted rapists in 2010 were men (according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.) And even if you adjust for the fact that many men wouldn’t report rapes, it’s still much more likely for a woman to be carried away and raped when she’s incapacitated.

    Yes, it is a matter of personal responsibility. I personally would not get drunk if my boyfriend wasn’t around. But let’s be real, convincing a person to have sex with you when he or she’s very clearly wasted is a heinous act. Whether or not it’s rape really depends on how drunk they are. But when people claim that if the victim is drunk then the rapist has a complete defense, they are completely ignoring the issue. As are the feminists who say that ALL drunk sex w women is rape. But yeah, radical feminists and terpers aren’t all that different.

    Happy New Year!

  52. Just got from Amazon the “Rationale Male” to read during treadmill walking workouts.

    Treadmill safety lesson learned: the body tries to orient itself in the direction that the head is facing. On a moving surface that keeps going in one direction only, unconsciously turning the body in the direction the head is facing can lead to stumbling or a road rash. Moral of the story; When the toned 22-ish chick in the skin-tight yoga pants walks by grab the hand-rails.

  53. ” . . . during treadmill walking workouts.”

    Protip: You can walk, run and practice flat foot dancing in place nearly anywhere, anytime, without a machine whose only reason for existing is to sell the machine.

    ” . . . the body tries to orient itself in the direction that the head is facing.”

    So if your car skids, look where you want it to go and your control inputs will tend to automatically be those to get it headed in that direction. Intuitively understandable as well, as opposed to the “steer into the skid” advice which invariably draws a “WTF?” response.

  54. Lol at it being rape depending on how drunk you were…

    Who decides that? (Not him for sure)

    The two worst things about drunken party sex…she won’t take no for an answer, and whiskey dick.

  55. “And even if you adjust for the fact that many men wouldn’t report rapes”

    My mother spent lots of energy trying to keep us kids away from men when I was young, “all men are rapists!” she would say.

    But yet my first sexual experience was with her female BFF at age 14.

    Rape for sure.

    What’s the proper channel to report that…facebook or twitter?

  56. “But let’s be real, convincing a person to have sex with you when he or she’s very clearly wasted is a heinous act. ”

    Nope, when my wife convinces me to have sex with her when she’s very clearly wasted (on rare occasions) –not heinous at all. Especially when she exhibits a lot of desire. It is pretty good as long as it’s not a hot Cosby. You are ignoring the desire dynamic on the part of the woman.

  57. “Can we just end this Insanity = Emily thing? Christ.”

    Don’t take the Lord’s name in vain Emily.

    You of all people should know better.


  58. Can a woman in comfortable shoes [feminist] foisting ideals and misconceptions in male domain be considered a mental rapist,or is she only guilty of trespass with malicious intent?

    In the real world could this invoke the make my day law?

    Treadmills walking,dancing,and running in place are all non productive,I prefer dancing alone in public although the results are dubious at best.

  59. “I prefer dancing alone in public . . .”

    When I said nearly anywhere, any time, I meant it. For instance, in line at the DMV.

    It took me a while to understand a common criticism of Musicals, that they’re unrealistic because you never see people just bursting into song in real life.

    I see it all the time, for the same reason that man has never lived in an environment without predators – if man is there, the environment contains predators.

  60. Dancing in the dmv line could be a rel test for stamina eccellent choice.

    This talking and singing is very confusing to a deaf lip reader unless he can see the ear pieces.

    Men tend to eradicate predators from their environment.Or discourage them by other means.

  61. “What’s the proper channel to report that…facebook or twitter?”
    A fiction story website.

    Aint talking about you and your wife. She expects sex from you and vice versa. I’m talking about two strangers.

  62. Since when do 20-year old college students at exensive uni’s use the word “aint”? Isn’t that a bit, hmm, old fashioned?

  63. Y’all need to stop with your crazy theories. If I was insanity or 50+ I would say so. Nothing wrong with being 50+.

    but I am 20. I don’t know how to prove it. Let’s see.. I know what yolo and swag mean. I grew up watching powerpuff girls, Dora, Arthur and Rugrats and then glee and the OC. My favorite artists are Adele and Carrie Underwood…

    Buuut who knows. Maybe I’m 50 and didn’t know it myself. Does it matter?

  64. Y’all need to stop with your crazy theories


    If I was insanity or 50+ I would say so.

    Would you?

    Say, how’s that cuckteased boi-friend of yours doing? Are you still torturing him with an ever receding mirage of marriage “someday”, or have you released him?

    Just wondering how deep the cruelty goes.

  65. rollo love your blog and book. need advice from you and other readers.

    im 34 and my ex college gf reached out to me after 10 years. 10 years ago we broke up on not so great terms and i completely lost track of her. We went our separate ways, I fucked around 40+ girls, but single never married and no kids, while she got married although she also has no kids.

    Long story short, she sent me an email and we scheduled a call. The convo was still great, almost like nothing had changed. she definitely continues to have some of those characteristics that created that deep friendship that was the foundation of our college relationahip. During the call, she said she was currently separated from her husband and getting a divorce. We talked a couple times later and in one of the convos she told me one big reason she was divorcing was that her husband was obsessed with the swinging lifestyle,something she said she hated. After probing her a bit she admitted that she participated in the swinging and got fucked by 4 or 5 strangers while her husband watched. The way she talks about it, it sounded like a horrible experience that scarred her for life and something she would never repeat, and i believe this to be true. she mentioned if she could burn the swinging club down she would do so happily.

    at this point, we are friends but i am very tentative about rekindling things with her, for many reasons: the fact that getting back with an ex is generally a bad idea, the fact that she was on the cock/cuckoldry carousel and comes back when her marriage is in shambles, the fact that she is now 33 and has hit the wall pretty hard with daily pizza dinners during a decade of marriage while im still getting digits by 22 year old passengers on airplanes. Nonetheless, she came over and we fucked but im noticing shes a lot hornier now than she was in college. Maybe my libido has gone down since then, but is the increase in libido in the participant women a common side effect of cuckholdry?

    open to suggestions as to how i should treat this chick now. thanks.

  66. Something similar happened to Mike Tyson. I read in his autobiography that the son he thought was his turned out to be the son of another man.

    He found out when he gave the mother 100 thousand dollars before he went to prison. She then used the money to hire an attorney to sue him for millions. During the lawsuit is when it came out that the child wasn’t his.

  67. You mention that in order for one mating strategy to work the other must suffer. I think I’ve found a way around that.

    It seems to me that the best mating strategy for a woman would be to get rich or become financially secure. Then she would be free to fuck the bad boys as long as she wanted without needing to pair off with a beta provider. By embracing and advertising open hypergamy beta men would no longer have to get duped they just won’t reproduce (with hot girls at least) and these women would only fuck the top 20% of men.

    The equal mating strategy for men would be to be financially secure and to then learn the bad boy mannerisms and honest signals so he could fuck the best women. Then at a certain age the financially secure and sexually educated men and women could choose to pair off from a place of interdependence.

  68. Hey.

    Just wondering if you consider euro-style swinging (i.e. mostly older couples engaging ‘as a couple’ in various groupsex performances, in clubs or as private parties) as a subset of open relationships, or something else?

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