Open Relationships

Functional_cuckoldry

During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

709 comments on “Open Relationships

  1. @sun, forge n scribblerg: thanks for the comments and support. It means a lot to me. I have been through a lot bit I view.it as I’m down but not out. Like a boxer who’s been knocked down, I get back up before the ref finishes the count and get back in the fight. Sometimes I feel like a punch-drunk boxer who just wants to survive the current round, can’t remember what f$cking round it is, and just hopes to hell he can finish the fight. In that sense it feels like I’m just trying to keep from drowning. In essence, life can become mere survival and the possibility of actual pleasure an oasis way off in the distance. Mixing fu$kin metaphors, now I’m making myself sick 🙂
    I think its true that certain experiences forge people. Identifying a brother at a morgue is one and so is nearly dying. The weird thing is that I function well in high stress intense situations then can be paralyzed by day to day shit. I know for a fact women sense a guy who has the ability to deal well with crisis. I just find it a strange place to be where I am tough but if I actually wang to discuss certain things with a women I would be viewed as weak. Women just seem so flawed, superficial and petty that I literally have had times where 2 minutes after fucking I’ve got my clothes on and am heading to the patio-via the kitchen where I grab a beer. I’ve pretty much concluded that the only people who will actually feel for me are other men.
    Anyway, I saw a guy tonight and he and I made peace. We almost came to blows a while back. I just said to him “…we’ve had our differences but I want to leave it in the past. Their’s no sense in us being at each others throats.” He put out his hand and we shook on it. I cant ever remember doing that-making peace. There was a ton of mutual respect and it was all non-verbal. I don’t think I’ve ever felt like that. It was always a zero sum game for me. Just how I grew up. I’m happy about that.
    It may not sound like much but I’ve made people wary for years. They could sense I was an inch from violence and I was. Fucking sad to be this old and to still have a hair-trigger. As for women bei ng turned on by that-and I know lots of.them are-it just makes me feel contempt for them.
    I used to think I had to figure this shit out. Now I dont give a shit-in the long run we’re all dead. I want peace and I’ve cut 3 bitches out completely-one whiff of ‘this chick could put me in jail’ and they’re OUT. I want a women like one I had in my 20’s: stands by her man, respect, pussy is on n wet and no games-cooks, cleans and bj’s.
    peace.

  2. @Bob – This. “The weird thing is that I function well in high stress intense situations then can be paralyzed by day to day shit. ” I can relate. I’m great in a crisis, and used to more like you said. What you describe is anxiety, but the kind that is paralyzing and that often comes from PTSD, Bob. Again, I don’t know what you’ve done in terms of help but these days there are real treatments for PTSD. But let me reiterate – it’s not wise for amateurs to do web diagnoses, so I could be way off too. But severe anxiety is horrifying to live through and many adults who were abused as children live with it daily.

    I was touched by the event you described, making peace with that guy. We do this for ourselves as much as others and it’s nice to want peace instead of war. What people who are not victims of severe abuse (and no, if you Dad spanked you too hard, you were not a victim of severe abuse) cannot understand is how this all goes on autopilot. The constant hypervigilance, always waiting for the shoe to drop, for people to turn on you, and in my case, for them to leave me. When living like an animal trying to survive as a child one cannot just switch it off as an adult, it runs much deeper than that.

    I didn’t realize how angry I was till I was about 35, but even then, I just used that to shame myself more. It was only after swallowing the Red Pill that I gave myself the right to be angry and to not be ashamed of it. Who wouldn’t be angry at what was done to me?

    Your closing lament brought a tear to my eye. I too wish there was a ‘good woman’ out there. I thought i had all that once and it exploded in my face. Women are like an unkept promise…

  3. I figure this might get you guys in the holiday spirit. Women riding a Sybian sex machine while singing Silent Night. And for those who don’t know what one looks like (cuz you can’t see it in the vid) here’s a pic.
    http://ep.yimg.com/ay/buyinprivate/the-sybian-vibrator-2.jpg

    @Emily, please tell us, where on earth would we get the idea that women are a bit out of hand today? Where are the guys doing similar things on YouTube? Could it be that women perhaps have lost their fucking minds?
    Merry Christmas, you goddamn snowflake. Aren’t you proud of your sisters? Aren’t they just so impressive?

    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPfnJYDnI5k&w=560&h=315%5D

  4. @SJB
    I don’t get it.. I mean, I find men frustrating sometimes too. But would I want them to be replaced with robots? Of course not. The perfect man or woman has to have faults, or else they won’t even be human.
    I love the dynamic between males and females, how we are so different. Besides, have none of you guys ever loved anyone? ever been loved? Can a robot really love you? Or is that just not important at all? Would you not mind if your mother, rather than being a loving human, would have been a robot? I can’t even..

    Aaaanyway, personally I’m looking forward to sex robots. At least then the men who only want us for sex will be removed from the dating pool.

    Keyzer, I’ve known my bf since elementary. He knows I’ve had sex.

    Scribbler, how do you know about that video 😮

    Anonymous, that site is bs. There is actually a pretty well agreed algorithm among women for how to adjust our number depending on who’s asking. But we mostly agree that our SO should know the truth. After all, if he’s gonna judge then he aint worth it.

  5. @Emily- a woman is free to do as she pleases, but how other people react to that is what they are equally free to do. If you have read enough of these types of blogs, then you know men will be looking at the count as an indicator of hypergameous tendancies, self-esteem, and stability in marriage. The count summarizes a lot of characteristics.

  6. @Pinelero
    I agree actually! 🙂 In both men and women, the number gives away certain characteristics.
    But.. people can change. If a girl had a high number before 16, but just 1 since then, you can’t really say your marriage w her will be unstable.

  7. ” . . . if he’s gonna judge then he aint worth it.”

    You’re just being silly, sweetums. There isn’t any reason I love you. Rest assured that to me you have never been and will never be anything other than a completely fungible object with nothing special about you. You could be replaced by any random woman off the street.

    So stop worrying your pretty little head about “why I love you” and go back to sleep.

  8. @ Emily

    If a girl had a high number before 16, but just 1 since then, you can’t really say your marriage w her will be unstable.

    The question is: Can she mateguard herself?

    Does she make herself available to ex’s? Does she have friends who are on the cock carousel? Does she make herself available on facebook? Does she go out clubbing and drinking heavily? Does she repel advances from bosses and peers in the workplace?

  9. “But.. people can change. If a girl had a high number before 16, but just 1 since then, you can’t really say your marriage w her will be unstable.”

    That seems very specific.

  10. I’d say if a girl has a high number before 16 that actually says a lot about her. And nothing that bodes well for a future with her.

  11. @ bob the bitch

    You think you know something about autism, but you don’t. You think you can poison the well, but you’re such a small, emotionally-damaged man. Not particularly bright, either.

    Stay away from my territory. I protect it. You don’t want to get in my sights.

  12. Scribbler is someone who can be a decent mentor if you are willing to submit to him. He is so emotionally insecure that he can’t handle peers or having a mentor himself. Scribbler also puts a lot of stock in pointy heads, including those of the psychobabble persuasion, despite mountains of evidence that those who have found TRP are waaay ahead of psychobabblers. Scribbler won’t listen to anyone about dealing with alienated family members, even when someone has managed to achieve reconciliation. It’s because of his insecurity.

    Scribbler also has trouble digesting history, lol. He thinks that Hitler was a Catholic dictator despite the fact that Hitler persecuted Catholics. He’s smart in some ways (book smart) and really stupid in others. When it comes to discernment of books that he’s reading, Scribbler is puerile.

    Scroll past his rants about history, politics, and religion. He’s worthless there.

  13. As far as my autism goes, it really is only a problem for me in social settings like clubs and parties, and only has a minor impact even there.

    The shrink who diagnosed me with autism told me that my high intelligence would be more of a problem socially than my autism. I already knew that, lol. That’s what shows up here, not my autism.

    So, YaReally, scribbler, bob, etc. don’t know fuck about autism or my issues. Pay attention to YaReally on gaming women, scribbler if you have a drinking problem, and to bob if you need to hear some guy bitching.

  14. @Emily: I know you don’t get it despite the reference; to be explicit: Adam’s first mistake was not silence in the face of the saraph but in being discontent in the solitude of dominus. For that sin God made woman. The sons of Adam have been making machines to obviate the conditions of the subsequent curse.

    C.f. Rollo’s “Mental point of origin”

  15. @Emily – Perhaps you could do some research on the entire idea of “Romance” and marrying for love – then you wouldn’t sound like such a fucking moron, yes?

    Do you know where this idea even emanates from? Do you know how and when this adoration of romantic love gets systematized and programmed into Western culture? My guess is that you don’t have the foggiest fucking idea, you just assume it as a giveb. It is not.

    Chivalry, courtly love and romantic all gave rise to the version of “love” that you babble about so glibly about 800 years ago. And even then, it was at first only for the “court”, not the masses. Knights, royalty and their courtiers played this game. It is during Victorian times where this becomes more codified into Western society for the masses. It was never a bargain for men.

    http://gynocentrism.com/2013/11/06/rise-of-courtly-love/

    http://gynocentrism.com/2015/11/25/courtly-love-ideology-leaves-bitter-men-with-only-fantasies/

    Even more deeply, you seem to believe that men should not want women “just for sex”, why is that? Again, more facts for you. Do you understand the difference between male and female sex drives? Are you aware that the only time you come within striking distance of the drive men have all the time is around the time of the month when you ovulate, you know, that day or two during the month when you are more horny? Do some research on female body builders who do testosterone therapy and listen to their reports of how shocked they were at having a libido that begins to approach that of men

    But the shit gets deeper for you, my precious little snowflake. In fact, it’s men who internalize romance and “love” and buy into it. Why? Because we desire women so much, we internalize all this programming about the “specialness” of women, and the elevated nature of romantic lovem and run our lives around it much more than women. It’s men who are shocked that women are hypergamous, and have a dualistic mating strategy. Men have been programmed for a long time to channel their lust into romance and to put women on pedestal and pursue them as “the prize”, imbuing women with so many qualities they don’t possess.

    Then we face reality and that’s why many of us have ended up here. You see, you arrogant quim, in many cases you are talking to men here who signed up for “love” only to find out they were Beta providers who were selected after a girl rode the cock carousel for a while and thought better of it (like you, honey). We were shocked to find out that such women actually didn’t really want to have sex with us but rather had done so to get us to marry them and have children with them. In my case, I had an alpha widow for whom I was the solution to his abuse of her – of course, I was never told any of this. I was told I was “the one”…Fyi, sadly for me, I married the prom queen/homecoming queen (a 9.5) who’s options were limitless and who’s narcissism was quite well disguised. When she “turned on me” – I was stunned and only doubled down on my efforts. Rollo wrote a post based on some comments I made about this http://therationalmale.com/2015/01/18/she-turned-on-me/

    We live in a society where women initiate 70% of the divorces, and where there are young children in the house, 80% of them. We live in a society where women have rejected the conventions of chastity and monogamy when in their sexual prime – and their sexual agency is lauded throughout the culture. Women slut it up? They get applause. Men do the same? This just happened to me recently, some hideous “age appropriate” woman found out I was “dating” multiple women and she went on a screaming tirade at me, calling me a dick and asshole and a scumbag in the most vicious, rude way imaginable. If I spoke to a woman in the way she had to me, I would have been asked to leave the bar. I would have been a “slut shamer”>

    Emily, I’m only scratching the surface of this subject. This in entire site is dedicated to men having to contend with women’s dualistic and often covert and deceptive mating strategies, and how they are being expressed in today’s society.

    You don’t even get that you are exhibit 1 in our case. We call you a “born again virgin”, perhaps the most ridiculous caricature of a woman possible. You want to erase your past experiences as “mistakes” – uh, how is having sex with lots of guys a mistake? No, you now regret it for some reason but it wasn’t a mistake. At the time you fully enjoyed it. What’s really true is that you realized earlier than most women that you devalued sex and that you needed to get a better “price” for it from men. That’s all. And now you make your BF “wait for it”? More Rollo – http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/23/wait-for-it/

    If you were just monogamous with him, swearing off all other men and being honest with him about your past and how you were trying to reform, that would be different. If you weren’t running around preaching to us, and I’d imagine, everyone else in your life about how having sex just for the sake of lust is a bad idea, you wouldn’t be so ludicrous and hypocritical.

    But no, you come here, barely out of childhood with your treacly, simplistic ignorance and try to correct us and lecture us about things you don’t really even understand.

    Sex robots. I don’t want to have sex with a robot. But women do all the time. Look at the video I posted above for exhibit 1 in my case. Or consider that dildos are merely small sex robots – most women have these now. They are presented in the pop culture and are seen as an entitlement to women now, a way of “owning their sexulity”. There are billions of dildos in the world, while there are a tiny fraction of sex toys sold to men in comparison. And even then, what has the most promise as marketable to men? A replica of an entire woman who seems as much like a real woman as possible. Women? They have no need for the entire man – just a simulated cock will do.

    My entire Red PIll journey has been about me coming to grips with how deluded I was about romantic love and female nature. And now I have to listen to a smartmouth little bitch like you come along and shame male sexual impulses? Do you have any idea how galling that is?

    Impress us here, Emily. Actually slow down and read my entire comment. Click the links, consider carefully what I’m saying, I dare you. Try to engage with these ideas and us thoughtfully instead of with your feelz. You are capable of it, you are just so entitled and so privileged that you are accustomed to men dealing with your feelz as though they are valid due our current fucked up society. Not here, little girl. You have an opportunity to wake up and become more responsible and sentient, I suggest you take it.

  16. @ SJF

    Scribbler helped you to figure out that you needed to stop drinking so much. You feel that you owe him for that. So you give him allegiance. He’s your lord and you’re his vassal.

    I write useful and helpful comments here from time to time. Scribbler encourages other men to scroll past my comments which might help them. Because of his insecurity and his subsequent hatred of me, Scribbler is actively trying to hurt other men by denying them help, merely to buffer his ego. Your lord is evil. You need to reconsider your allegiance to him.

  17. @ SJF

    I also don’t need your social proof. This is not a declaration of war, merely a statement of fact. When you say that you give it, you are claiming higher status. I reject that.

    My comments show my value and status.

  18. It is actually a lot more subtly complex than that ASDg.

    The way of men. A gang. Friends in that gang. Sub-communication among those friends. E-mail communications. In some endeavors it helps to strive like your life depends on it.

    And Heh, props to you for passing my “social proof” shit test, you wary gamer you. Couldn’t sneak one by you.

  19. @All – Just get that ASD is ego invested in his “standing” in the manosphere and this community. He actually stated plainly at some point that he behaves the way he has towards me to preserve this standing, yet misses how that is his ego at work. And for the record, he completely misrepresents many things about me in his feral, desperate attempt to cut me down (never once said Hitler was a Catholic dictator, although he was most certainly a christian, for example).

    What I’m glad for now though is that he’s dropped his mask and everyone can see it’s personal for him, not for me. I sensed this a while ago, hence me going at him so harshly. I’ve let it go as guys like him simply don’t matter, no matter how hard they try…

    And oh yeah, ASD, I can’t make anyone scroll by your comments, you invite that by your own behavior.

  20. Can anyone tell me if there’s spoilers in the Storytelling post or comments? I saw the movie title and I stopped reading.

  21. “I’d say if a girl has a high number before 16 that actually says a lot about her. And nothing that bodes well for a future with her.”

    As I’ve reached out to people to rebuild my social circle, I’ve realized I actually know of more “good” marriages than I was aware of.

    They all have 3 things in common as far as I can tell:

    1. The man is a badass in whatever it is he chose as a mission or occupation.

    2. The women seem conservative and my guess is they have had a low number of sex partners. Most married young. (a couple I know for sure (lol) are at 1-2 total partners)

    3. The women all use social media very sparingly.

  22. @ SJF

    Still playing dominance games? lol

    I’ve learned that I need to calibrate men more carefully as well. I’ve become aware that men in social settings often consider me a threat, which I’ve never experienced before. So, it behooves me to calibrate men as well.

    I tend towards relationship avoidance, so that works against bonding closely with other men. I have had a few close friends, but most of my male relationships were acquaintances or buddies with the same hobby.

    Yeah, my close friends were both smart and popular with women.

    I don’t need to provide commentary on Rollo’s blog. No skin off my back.

    I need to focus on my books more. I’ve been putting it off.

  23. @Cave – It’s taken me a while to come to see things the way you described above. Indeed, the marriages I see that work have similar characteristics.

    I guess I’m left wondering if there is any path possible for an older guy like me to have that kind of thing? While I’m “back on mission”, marrying some young thing and starting over seems unfair and close to impossible. If we had kids, what, I’d be 70 with a 15 yr old as the oldest if i met someone, married them and had a kid as soon as possible, starting the clock now? Assuming I could ever pull it off? And would I want to marry someone so much less mature than me? Nah.

    I used to think what you described was NAWALTing or Unicorn hunting but there are some decent marriages out there, I can’t deny that.

    For the time being my solution is to game young hotties, but really, as I get to a more centered and calm place with all this I’m coming to realize I never stopped wanting the traditional marriage. I was just too hurt/cynical/gunshy to ever try again after the first one ripped my guts out.

    Maybe I should try widows? Seriously, find some woman who is conservative, skipped all the madness and by fate finds herself single again? At least she’d have good values and not be cock-blind. I dunno, I can’t see any other path.

    And if I’m really honest, I feel ridiculous chasing young hotties. It’s making lemonade of my lemons for sure.

  24. “I’ve realized I actually know of more “good” marriages than I was aware of.”

    @Cave

    Curious. Do you know of any “good” marriages from the baby boomer generation? I know quite a few of them and NONE of them seem truly happy. Either divorced or just staying together because it would be too painful to split. I don’t know if it’s something with that generation, or the length of the marriage, or I’m unlucky, or what.

  25. Emily
    My bf hardly uses the net or his computer. Mostly just browses a comedy website every now and then, but that’s about it.

    Sure, dearie, you bet. This is the sucker you used to sex up, that you now are cock teasing into the land of blueballs, and you really believe this?

    Heh. When’s the wedding set for, again? Oh, right, “Daddy” wouldn’t approve.

  26. “@Cave – It’s taken me a while to come to see things the way you described above. Indeed, the marriages I see that work have similar characteristics.”

    I would add that none of them are under the age of 30 NOW, although they married in late teens or early 20’s.

    Guys under 30 today are truly fucked when it comes to LTR’s I think.

    As for your age and getting an LTR? I have no idea. I know a guy that married a chick that was 42 at the time. She had been married from the ages of 18 to 42 to a guy that refused to treat his low T and couldn’t get an erection. She tells her new hubby that the ex was her first, she had one guy in between and then my friend is number 3. Is she lying? Probably. But I’ve known her a long time and if her actual number was over 10 I would be surprised. She’s a sweetheart and a babe.

    “I used to think what you described was NAWALTing or Unicorn hunting but there are some decent marriages out there, I can’t deny that.”

    I’ll be honest. I’m having a very hard time with the NAWALT thing. It seems like most men in the manosphere, writers and commenters both, think that all women will immediately fuck an alpha at first chance, and immediately discard beta’s at first chance.

    Maybe I just haven’t been fucked over by women enough yet, but all of this seems so NEGATIVE.

    Women are hypergamous, ok I accept that. Women have dual mating strategies, ok I accept that too. Women are duplicitous, ok I accept that as well.

    But IRL, it seems to me that women fall into 2 camps.

    1. Following the script. Party in their 20’s, find a beta in their 30’s. These women are fucking miserable usually.

    2. Openly rejecting the script. Unconsciously finding a man that comes close to fulfilling both AF/BB and settling down. Tempted by more alpha men? Sure. Are a lot of them acting on it? Maybe. Frustrated by their husbands that probably err on the side of beta. Of course.

    Even the few teenage girls I know fall into one of these.

    Maybe I am more blue or purple or naive than I realize, maybe the wife being so good to me and providing value way beyond sex, has gotten my oneitis to cloud my judgement, I don’t know.

    I can name 11 women right now that openly reject the “party years” script, and are working hard to build families with the men they are with. Most have been married 10+ years. (or they are teens that keep to themselves and don’t “date” at all, much less AF partying)

    Mostly I just hate being cynical. Hate it.

  27. Andy,

    Like generations cover so many years, it’s hard to know. Like I’m a millennial at 34 years old, like so is a 16 year old. (Like lol, I can’t even bro)

    The older boomers though? Define happy. The ones I know are just in a routine. Are they unhappy? The ones I know aren’t. Boring for sure…

  28. @Rollo: “Oh, and lets not forget this great confessional list, courtesy of ‘Quality Women’”

    Exactly!! I have been seeing a lot of brothers comment about a woman “being quality” of late, even on reddit/RedPill…I think men need to be careful touting this kind of view point, I think it reeks of pedestalization and potential for regressing back into the BP morass that is modern day relationships/marriage.

    Maybe you should do a post about what a kind of woman an RP man, or real man should have, or maybe what qualities he should expect her to have. I dunno, just a thought…

    There’s a lot of RP wisdom out there thatnks to you sensei, and many other out there including TRM commentariat, about this issue, i.e. regarding ‘quality women’, and you’ve nicely directed the human hamster aka ‘Emily’ to it (dunno how I hadn’t added that to my favourites yet) Should there be certain bare minimums for (RP) men?

    What do the guys think of what “Frezno” here says from the doc “Human”: https://youtu.be/vdb4XGVTHkE?t=34m50s

  29. @theasdgamer
    December 22nd, 2015 at 10:25 am

    A surprising realization has come to me in the last 2 1/2 years (parallel to my pursuit of red pill awareness and game in order to have Real Power). That was: Male relationships among “normal” males matter and allow for better relationships with females.

    This was a by-product of my journey. Good men worth having as friends don’t come along very often (nor do good woman worth having relations with). Prior to five years ago, I saw no value in male relationships. Now I see value. (I never had any good ones before, now I got some good ones).

    So, yes I am playing dominance games. And honor among men games (core group of guys). As well as Strength, Courage and Mastery games in real life– engaging with life . Engage in things formerly thought to be mundane as if your life depended on it.

    “I’ve learned that I need to calibrate men more carefully as well. I’ve become aware that men in social settings often consider me a threat, which I’ve never experienced before. So, it behooves me to calibrate men as well.”

    You shouldn’t overlook the value of relationships with men even if it is just in the pursuit of relationships with women.

    Glenn and I had engaged in a way-of-men-is-the-way-of-a-gang relationship offline from here in the comments section ( for nearly 6 months). A real “honor among men” type of stand-up-and-be-better kind of thing.

    So, to summarize ASDg, I guess this comments section is just like a microcosm of real life. In real life you should game like your life depends on it. You play dominance games with me I’ll give you a Stephen Colbert-like wry smile. Play the same with ScribblerG and he’ll go all Henry Rollins on you.

    (if the line of thought seems jumbled, it is because it is–just throwing thoughts out there)

  30. @Emily: “I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

    Haha! Translates into, “Blah!Blah! Make men better for us….blah!blah! they should improve to be what we want them to be.”

    As usual, women thinking they know what’s best for men or relationships…the crisis of youth, or is pre-wall hamsternomics…or both!

    “I mean, there isn’t really anything constructive in fucking a girl for one night and never meeting her again, but figuring out strategies to do that constantly is 50% of what the manosphere is about.”

    What the fuck do you know about fucking girls? Whether you find it constructive or not is neither in your intellectual or philosophical jurisdiction. Busting a nut is in our nature…your opinion about it is irrelevant.

    Typical….meanwhile her boyfriend suffers from blue balls….or does he?

    http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/57746/1959196-stewie_by_111blur111.png

  31. “you guys essentially only deal with us because of sex. Nothing else is important to men, there is nothing else about females that you like.”

    This chic is just thick! ‘Stupid’ would be too nice a way to describe her.

    For all the time you spend on the net “contributing to blogs” the minimum one would expect would be for you to avoid touting dimwitted shit like this…but who are we kidding.

    You time would be best spent on your knees…fellating your boyfriend.

  32. “Glenn and I had engaged in a way-of-men-is-the-way-of-a-gang relationship offline from here in the comments section ( for nearly 6 months). A real “honor among men” type of stand-up-and-be-better kind of thing.”

    lol, I wish I could meet you IRL.

  33. “I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

    I’d honestly love it if you had the intellectual curiosity to really read through the dozens of articles where I do exactly this.

    The problem is that ‘help’ and that ‘improvement’ is based on a harsh but truthful awareness of the nature of women and one your ego-investments cannot accept.

    You, Insanity, Giggles, LivingTree, AlphaFemale, Sunshine Mary and even Dragonfly to a degree, etc. all want a better Beta. You want a Beta with a side of Alpha.

    You want a better slave, one that’s ignorant of the female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies your need for amused mastery and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needed to be made aware of their nature.

    This is precisely why you will tire of your present BF. You’ll get to a point where you’ll question his assertiveness and Alpha awareness by allowing you to control his desires. If a man is willing to sublimate the most powerful impulse he has in order to acquiesce to your frame, what else will he sublimate?

    Do you really want to be with a man so optionless? What does that reflect about yourself? Can you only do so well as a man who wont force the issue with you? Do you really want a man who defers to your authority and frame? How does that man stack up when it comes to your own personal long term security?

    Women want a man that other men want to be and other women want to fuck. What man envies your man’s position in life? What woman would challenge you to want to fuck him enough to try to take him from you?

    Trust me, I’ve been helping men in their relationships and with self-improvement for over 13 years now. The fear you have is that a man’s RP awareness and subsequent improvement will disqualify you from his consideration – in fact it’s likely so.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/02/10/the-threat/

    Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

  34. “I wish I could meet you IRL.”

    Andy, I would bore you to tears in real life. I like to do mundane things well.
    Like stay married, raise kids well, be monogamous for 27 years, engage in serial hobbies……..

  35. “I love the dynamic between males and females, how we are so different. Besides, have none of you guys ever loved anyone? ever been loved? Can a robot really love you? Or is that just not important at all? Would you not mind if your mother, rather than being a loving human, would have been a robot? I can’t even..”

    http://24.media.tumblr.com/9392e0a1a8778bfc6220aaf150cbbed0/tumblr_mr4w8odYPT1s6uduro1_400.gif

    Like clockwork…

    “But we mostly agree that our SO should know the truth. After all, if he’s gonna judge then he aint worth it.”

    http://funny-pics-fun.com/wp-content/uploads/Funny-Laughing-Face-Contagious-Laughter-13.jpg

  36. @ scribbler

    About time you drew a little blood. You’ve been swinging your toy sword long enough at me. You remind me of my annoying kid brother who still likes to play dominance games. He’s pretty good at them. My bro is quite subtle and tries to slide them by me like SJF does. He’s both obnoxious and fun.

    Now just claim victory and put your toy sword away.

    @ SJF

    I know that you’ve enjoyed watching all the dominance games. Not usually something I pay much attention to.

    See, if I defend myself against scribbler’s attacks, he gets the initiative. And if I riposte and draw blood, it feeds his insecurity and he becomes more annoying.

    I get a lot more traffic on my blog from search engines than from TRM. I’ve gotten a handle on bookmarking, I think. I’m still working on my marketing skills so that I can draw a lot from the WordPress reader. Somehow, Krauser’s site sent me a bunch of leads yesterday!???

    Men still make decisions more on whether they like you than on whether or not you can add value to their lives. The Hamster is powerful in men, too.

  37. @Andy – The marriages I was thinking of that i know well are all couples 40 years or older. I do see younger marriages, but don’t know them so well so it’s hard to say.

    My point was that the formula Cave laid out makes sense. Low N, conservative values, rejects the script, enjoys acting like a woman and a man with a mission who is the major breadwinner/provider. I’m not saying I can “prove it” I’m just being straight about how I see things now. I do think that being cynical is soul death, in all things. I am so happy that my cynicism and disgust have waned, and I’m as surprised as anyone that I actually want an LTR.

    I’m not here to play status games, fyi. I’m here to learn and work shit out so IRL I can play to my max. I DGAF if someone sees this as Purple Pilling or whatever, ‘party on Garth’ – just remember guys saying this are not in their 50s. There are seasons to life. Chasing pussy can feel quite empty at this point of my life. I would be happy with a woman who was as much a friend/life partner THAT I COULD TRUST as a sexual partner at this age. Hell, if I could talk her into getting couples massages from young hotties who give me a happy ending, shit, that would do the trick.

    My point? Getting beyond the anger at all of this is quite revealing and Cave is making a shitload of sense to me. It also helps explain how guys like Rollo and others here maintain what appear to be decent marriages. I could not process this when I first got here – I thought all such men were lying or deluded or just lucky. In a way, this was a buffer for me as I could not squarely face my own role in the demise of my marriage. Once I got that i was using an old set of books, and actually doubled down on that effort once my marriage went sideways, only making matters worse, I got that this was not my fault. I was conned by a society that wants to con me.

    Not any more. Now I have choice, and now that the anger at women has subsided, I can allow myself to really explore what I want and how to get it.

    @SJF – You are still missing the point in a way. I acknowledge men of higher ability and value in various domains all the time, and defer to their leadership/reasoning etc. I’ve done so many times on these pages. IRl I will also submit to the dominance of a man who is aggressive and clearly can physically best me and is threatening to do so if that is in my benefit at the moment.

    What you seem to not be able to distinguish is when a man is acting dishonorably and how I deal with that. I do not tolerate men acting dishonorably towards me or being excessively denigrating. One can reduce that to dominance/submission but that will make you miss what’s really driving my behavior. I function in social and work settings all the time where other’s lead and I follow and play a role. I function in my family and with my friends in similar ways. Just don’t “cross the line” with me.

    Where Henry Rollins and I are similar is that we don’t shame and repress our anger, we channel it at those targets we choose . When I arrived here, my anger at women in general and myself was so high, after being chewed up by the clinical parental alienation of my daughter. This was episodic and had its own arc. It’s not “who I am”. Notice how Colbert tries to shame Colbert for Rollins’ anger – this is blue pill/FI as shit. Rollins doesn’t walk around beating people up for no reason or raging at nothing, he doesn’t have a problem with “anger” – he’s just not a fucking pussy like Colbert. Fyi, I’ve met Colbert and he’s a pussy in real life too…

  38. “I’ve met Colbert and he’s a pussy in real life too…”

    Yeah he was a real pussy shitting all over Bush to his face at that White House correspondence dinner. Dude has some balls.

  39. The marriages I see that work, the guy is def a beta…but not a “nice guy” or pushover. Does that make sense?

    As an aside, I’ve decided I don’t give a flying fuck if I am an alpha or beta.

    I don’t kiss anyone’s ass, that’s good enough for me.

    “Better than yesterday” is all I care about.

    Men often express jealousy towards me for financial accomplishments, my confidence, and intelligence. (No brag)

    Limited female admiration, but whatever.

  40. @Andy – So you’ve met Colbert too? And sure, taking politically correct cheap shots, playing along with the feminized values of the left is quite masculine, lol. But please, let’s just leave it there – I’ve not once engaged with your productively and have concluded there is no point attempting to do so. Whether it’s me or you is irrelevant, I just know it’s a waste of time for me as I get nothing out of our exchanges. Zip. Nunca. Nada. Have a nice life…

  41. @Rollo – Wow, what a comment to Emily. You summarized so many powerful ideas that I’m only now really able to grasp and internalize. It makes me realize how completely our society is soaked in the FI and all it entails.

    One of the things that is hitting me lately is how much less women need to “work” to have the culture play to their natures and desires. A man who embraces his masculinity today is beating his way through waves and headwinds and a foul tide, going uphill both ways nonstop. It’s corrosive and stressful and emotionally draining. I realized that part of what I had done is just withdraw in many social situations and kept to myself out of a desire to minimize the friction. Sadly, in some settings folks took that as acquiescence. I had this situation with two sisters and it’s taken time to reframe back to where I can have my views treated as valuable and be who I am without friction. Sadly, a third sister is so infected with radfem hate that she cannot be reached. This is the same sister who not too many years ago asked me to walk her down aisle instead of our Dad, as I had been the only father figure she ever had. I was key to raising her since she was an infant (she was the my mom died giving birth to), and it’s just so sad to see where she’s at now. Married to an impotent man. living a life of simmering anger and leftist delusions. Pettiness, emotionality, it’s just gross. I’m cool with letting her go her own way but the contrast with the other sisters is just too notable.

    Now I’m learning to do so with grace and a minimum of effort. It’s amazing what a smirk or a word or two or even body language can communicate when you are confident and not repressed/suppressed. It also helps to not be angry at women in general anymore.

    Thanks for everything, Rollo, and Merry Christmas!

  42. “What you seem to not be able to distinguish is when a man is acting dishonorably and how I deal with that. I do not tolerate men acting dishonorably towards me or being excessively denigrating. ”

    I do get this honor among men thing. I respect what you are doing when you are being dishonored. I do see it even before you point it out.

    My Scorecard:

    Henry Rollins: hororable because he won’t allow himself to be dishonored– in general in life (he was promoting his movie and had to take Colbert’s alleged humor)

    TheAsd gamer: Disrespect and dishonor pointed at ScribblerG. Not calibrating the importance of his dialog with Scribbler

    ScribblerG: won’t allow himself to be dishonored.

    My respect for ScribblerG and Henry Rollins. I really want to hear what they say. They are engaging and advance the discussion.

    I’m pretty much indifferent to ASDgamer’s keyboard output. I don’t really mind it, but I don’t find it terribly engaging. And I think I’m probably not that fearful of autistic-like traits I might posses personality wise. So I won’t use psychological projection much.

  43. “A man who embraces his masculinity today is beating his way through waves and headwinds and a foul tide, going uphill both ways nonstop. It’s corrosive and stressful and emotionally draining.”

    That’s certainly how they would like us to feel…

    (not discounting your thoughts or feelings man, just starting to realize myself that these cynical feelings I have are for what? Because society says I should be less of a man? Because society says this is how I should feel or act? Talk about shit test! Truly & honestly not giving one flying fuck what anyone thinks of me has helped SO MUCH. It’s hard, I’m sure as hell not there yet, but working on it)

    (of course IDGAF doesn’t mean being a socially retarded asshole either)

  44. SJF
    Male relationships among “normal” males matter and allow for better relationships with females.

    And what do women often strive to do in any LTR, marriage or even STR? Yep, make a man give up his male friends. Shit test? Clearly…and if a man does what the dearie asks, he beta-izes himself immediately.

    “Emily” has a Madonna-whore complex for a reason, methinks…

  45. @SJF – Ah. I get it. I also think it’s important to be able to laugh at oneself. We are all ridiculous in our own ways, me included and especially. But I am who I am.

    Cave – One can frame it as a society-wide shit test, but it’s just as true that it’s society-wide antagonism to masculinity, men, boys and fathers non-stop. To claim to be unaffected by that seems to me to be a bit much. Handling it with equanimity, indeed and also powerfully, that’s where I’m getting to. But to not acknowledge the adversity such a man faces in the mainstream culture? That’s denial to me.

    Just consider corporate culture and how female values have corrupted and deformed it so badly. I cannot rail against it and cannot afford to behave instinctively, i have to navigate it and women carefully and with an eye towards what will work in these settings. I’m old enough to remember when the culture was much more masculine and things like a being a bit confrontational and challenging bad ideas was seen as good. Now? Do it after the meeting, never put negative thoughts in writing, always couch negative feedback constructively and do so one-on-one.

    Consensus has also run amok, and in today’s environment far too many people have a seat at the table on decisions who have no business being there in the first place. I remember working with a female CMO who begged me to tell her what I thought of the new product pitch deck she had labored to produce – it was garbage, and said nothing but bromides and corporate speak. There was nothing illuminating or inspiring about it, it was awful actually.

    So after much cajoling, in a meeting where i had sat quietly, obeying my instincts to not be critical, I finally said what I thought as constructively as possible. I told her simply, “Well, I can’t see using it with my clients much.” WWIII commences. The fact that everyone who mattered told me after the meeting that I was correct and that they were happy I had said something didn’t matter. I was now a target of this vindictive bitch, and even though I’d sold one million+ first quarter of 2008, when everyone’s forecast shit the bed later in the year, I was let go (I was the last sales rep to be let go) despite having sold more new business than any other rep. 10 years earlier? Such a move would have been unthinkable. But I made this fat, nasty bitch look bad and it was a big mistake that fucked up my career and cost me my job. I was laid off (along with 40% of the company, it was stripped down to a skeleton crew) while being a top performer, feature that. 15 years previous? The CEO would have said, “I think should listen to what Scrib has to say”…

    That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about.

  46. “One can frame it as a society-wide shit test, but it’s just as true that it’s society-wide antagonism to masculinity, men, boys and fathers non-stop. To claim to be unaffected by that seems to me to be a bit much. Handling it with equanimity, indeed and also powerfully, that’s where I’m getting to. But to not acknowledge the adversity such a man faces in the mainstream culture? That’s denial to me.”

    Oh, I’m not claiming to be unaffected. Just trying to scale back my own cynicism.

  47. @Scribbler: “15 years previous?”

    You couldn’t fire salesmen for anything short of actual criminal activity. If they had the numbers they were more secure in their positions than the CEO.

  48. Cosign what Cave says about marriages that work. In fact I think I’ve written something pretty similar in the past.

    My parents are boomers (though just barely) and they have a great relationship. Not sure the generation matters much. They were both quite attractive, very attracted to each other, (I believe) low n’s, conservative values/parents, my mother had many children early, and my father just crushed it in his career and hasn’t stopped.

    So that works. Why doesn’t everyone just do that? 😉

  49. A man who embraces his masculinity today is beating his way through waves and headwinds and a foul tide, going uphill both ways nonstop. It’s corrosive and stressful and emotionally draining.

    Yes. It is, whether a man is striving to better himself personally, professionally, in pickup, in STR, in LTR, in leading a family, it is like being Sisyphus.

    I need to get a copy of The 13th Warrior, an old ‘Nam Marine reco’d it to me as “motivational” and I need motivation sometimes, especially in winter.

  50. Cave, the RP doesn’t compel cynicism. And AWALT means that all women are running on basically the same programming, not that they’ll all act upon the darker aspects of that programming with utter abandon.

    Like, men are turned on by the sight of a hot woman. Given ample opportunity many of them would bang her. AMALT. But it’s not destiny.

  51. “I need to get a copy of The 13th Warrior . . .”

    The critics hated it. While it’s no great work of art (although based on one), it’s one of the best men’s movies made in the past 30 years or so, and particularly apropos to the times, because it’s a coming of age story in which the protagonist is already a grown man who was never forced to become a man.

    ” Merciful Father, I have squandered my days with plans of many things. This was not among them. But at this moment, I beg only to live the next few minutes well.”

    It may even turn out to prognosticate our future.

  52. Scribbler
    15 years previous

    As many have pointed out, the mindset of Game is not just for pickup in bars. It is useful, even necessary, in an increasingly feminized world.

  53. “Why doesn’t everyone just do that?”

    Attempting exactly that. (except the being attractive part, lol)

    “Cave, the RP doesn’t compel cynicism.”

    True.

  54. Rollo said..

    ” You want a better slave, one that’s ignorant of the female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies your need for amused mastery and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needed to be made aware of their nature.

    This is precisely why you will tire of your present BF. You’ll get to a point where you’ll question his assertiveness and Alpha awareness by allowing you to control his desires. If a man is willing to sublimate the most powerful impulse he has in order to acquiesce to your frame, what else will he sublimate?

    Do you really want to be with a man so optionless? What does that reflect about yourself? Can you only do so well as a man who wont force the issue with you? Do you really want a man who defers to your authority and frame? How does that man stack up when it comes to your own personal long term security?

    Women want a man that other men want to be and other women want to fuck. What man envies your man’s position in life? What woman would challenge you to want to fuck him enough to try to take him from you?”

    Awwww Yeahhh!!!!

    This right here is pure gold for any woman who seriously wants an understanding of what the main issues in relationships/marriage are.

    It’s too bad that so many seem fully incapable of grasping this on more than a cursory level. I used to think it was willful ignorance, but now I am convinced that the problem runs much, much deeper than that.

    Everything in women’s lives seems to cheer them on and overly validate their opinions and views. Anything that goes against the notion of the dutiful beta as optimal quickly gets poo-poo’d, even if an opposing view/fact is indisputable, if only they would take off the FI glasses and have a serious, unbiased look in search of Truth.

    So women saunter into RP forums and purport to want understanding, but are mostly unable to cast off their FI programming.

    Then there’s chicks like Emily who want to argue standard FI opinions and modus operandi.

    …and it never ends.

    If there was ever any doubt over the validity of RP teachings/thinking, many women who opine here will provide a stark confirmation of such while actively trying to debunk RP. It’s fucking hilarious and at the same time, very useful.

  55. So in a LTR, does picking a “quality” woman matter more than the man’s actions? I would lean towards yes, but want thoughts.

    In other words, don’t marry a woman with 7-8 LTRs under her belt and think you can “game” or “alpha” her into compliance. Pick a better woman. I’m a stats guy, so I like to go with percentages rather than thinking I’ll buck the odds.

    But, thoughts?

  56. Striver,

    Hmmmm. As a rule, chicks with 7 or 8 LTR’s under their belts won’t make good marriage material. I don’t subscribe to a General Descriptor of ” Quality ” woman. Someone upstream mentioned that it is like a form of pedestalization, and I tend to concur.

    Now, could a man ” Alpha ” a woman with so many LTR’s to her credit/discredit? The answer is Yes. I say this because there is a chance that the woman has been dealing exclusively with Beta males. Hence the numerous number of LTR’s.

    BUT, if the female in question is not a serial monogamous Ho, what is the benefit to any man to wife up a chick like this? The odds are heavily against your long term success.

    So, you could Game a chick like that, but there is no real payoff. The higher number of LTR’s is a warning sign of a potentially problematic broad, and nobody needs that shit.

  57. Striver

    Your mindset is by far the most important factor. If you don’t have that straight you don’t even know what ‘quality’ MEANS to you. And you sure as hell ain’t gonna get it by accident.

    If you find a ‘quality girl’ and get into a relationship with her, that relationship will always be inflected by your mindset – what you allow, what you encourage. Even if she’s not dysfunctional you will MAKE her dysfunctional.

    These things all work together.

    That said, don’t go wifing crazy chicks obviously lol.

  58. @Cave,

    ” (not discounting your thoughts or feelings man, just starting to realize myself that these cynical feelings I have are for what? Because society says I should be less of a man? Because society says this is how I should feel or act? Talk about shit test! Truly & honestly not giving one flying fuck what anyone thinks of me has helped SO MUCH. It’s hard, I’m sure as hell not there yet, but working on it)

    (of course IDGAF doesn’t mean being a socially retarded asshole either)”

    I have always advocated that men trying to better themselves have to disconnect from the societal megaphone. Concentrating on what society deems appropriate only muddies the waters or self discovery and determination.

    We can be ” In ” society without being ” Of ” society.

    Current society is massively vulnerable to trends and politically correct herd thought. It’s insane. It’s as if there is a societal underground that is usurping any semblance of a ” Real Society “.

    The only power others have over you, or even your thought, is the power that you cede to them. Give. Them. Nothing. But Hard. Dick. And. Bubblegum.

  59. Striver
    So in a LTR, does picking a “quality” woman matter more than the man’s actions?

    All women require some degree of leadership, of “alpha”. The question before any man is twofold:

    “How much alpha does this woman need, and am I willing to provide it?”

    Any man who’s been sufficiently Betaized will have a hard time providing any alpha at all, take that as a given, the starting point for too many of us. Beyond that, as a man improves himself and ups his Game, the level of alpha he’s got increases, it takes less effort to maintain a given level. There’s always room for improvement, of course, but eventuallly we all peak out somewhere.

    Then look at the landscape of women. You don’t want a woman where you have to be upping Game all the time, it’s bound to take energy away from your primary mission; don’t make gaming her the mission, it won’t end well. So how much alpha can you provide, and what does it take to keep her in a good State?

    On the one hand, too many men clawing out of betatude tend to sell themselves short. On the other hand, a man’s got to know his limitations.

  60. kfg
    The critics hated it.

    Like anyone should care…
    Really. Years ago I realized that Siskel and Egbert were political whores much more than actual film critics.

    While it’s no great work of art (although based on one), it’s one of the best men’s movies made in the past 30 years or so, and particularly apropos to the times, because it’s a coming of age story in which the protagonist is already a grown man who was never forced to become a man.

    That’s partly what the old ‘Nam Marine meant, probably, although he’s a man of fewer words; “You should get this movie. It’s motivational.”

  61. “Emily”
    Anonymous, that site is bs. There is actually a pretty well agreed algorithm among women for how to adjust our number depending on who’s asking.

    My goodness, dearie, you seem wise beyond your years today…

    But we mostly agree that our SO should know the truth. After all, if he’s gonna judge then he aint worth it.

    LOL @ your Female Imperative, dearie. The more I understand women the less likely I am to do two things: judge them, and believe anything they say.

  62. Forge

    If you find a ‘quality girl’ and get into a relationship with her, that relationship will always be inflected by your mindset – what you allow, what you encourage. Even if she’s not dysfunctional you will MAKE her dysfunctional.

    A year or more ago I would have discounted this, insisting that Women Have Agency, So There. Now that I’m getting more comfortable with the fact that women are indeed more like water, and thus tend to take the shape of what they are poured into…yeah, I’ll cosign that.

    A man who allows life (births, deaths, jobs, whatever) to Betaize him is going to drag any woman he has around down with him. She’ll become more cranky and hard to live with right when he doesn’t need that, because she’s missing whatever degree of Alpha he had before. The good news is that, in at least some cases, clawing back up out of the pit of Betaness will affect her also. First with increased frequency of shit tests, because her hindbrain is just not sure, but then not too much later with more compliance. I’ve seen it. It works.

    I’m telling myself and other, including women: “If your Significant Other doesn’t look like they did before, you first should look in the mirror and see what’s different there“.

  63. Anonymous Reader ,

    Thanks man. That’s something I’m passionate about re: men trying to figure things/life out. Society is actually a large part of the problem(s). It’s been hijacked.

  64. I have an HB4 feminist friend that is madly in love with me.

    She tells the guys she dates that she has been with 70+ men in her 38 years.

    Calls them shallow when they go dark on her…

    Only saw one guy try to stick around.

    She dumped him, lol.

    Women do it to themselves. 70+ dicks, are you kidding me? And you want a dude with any sort of self respect to LTR you?

    Ruined for life.

  65. Emily…

    ” I love the dynamic between males and females, how we are so different. ”

    Uhhh, I dunno. I guess we are exactly the same. Equal.

    ” Besides, have none of you guys ever loved anyone? ever been loved? Can a robot really love you? Or is that just not important at all?”

    I love. I am loved. I’ve learned to never accept any form of supposed conditional love. It’s unhealthy to jump through flaming hoops for other people. Love is a very natural and uncomplicated thing. Any ” rules ” in a loving relationship automatically render that relationship false.

    Yet, rules have been set. They have not been set by men. Men cannot win ( be happy ) under the prevailing rule structure. The current rule structure favors the feminine over the masculine. I think you see this as a good thing and you are using it to your advantage. In a perfect world I would destroy your advantage. In the end, you’d be much happier without the current structure, but you won’t understand this because you have a false power under the current system.

    Your BF is a perfect example of this power. Your comments are also a perfect example of the clueless power women have seized.

    Children. With dynamite.

    “Would you not mind if your mother, rather than being a loving human, would have been a robot? I can’t even..”

    If that were the case, I’d never know the difference. I think you have a very different description of ” love “, which is odd seeing how we are the same and equal. Why the difference I wonder?

  66. @theasdgamer

    scribbler mindfucked the men here.

    Yeah. The problem couldn’t be you. Must be the rest of us.

    I think your case of cranial-rectal inversion is getting bad enough that you might want to seek medical attention.

  67. “scribbler mindfucked the men here. Gratz, scribbler. Sucks to be weak-minded.”

    Did you really just call the other men here weak minded?

  68. Jesus fuck ASD. What the fuck is wrong with you?

    Always picking fights, always spouting nonsense. Always hiding behind your aspergers instead taking responsibility for your words, attitudes, and lack of fitting in with this group.

    I’ve held my tongue and just scrolled you. But now I think you’re just a joke.

    Go back to dancing, apparently that’s the only way you know how to socialize.

    Maybe you should dance with men, then you’ll have a chance to relate to them better.

    Quit the posturing and fucking learn something here for once.

  69. @Emily,

    “Keyzer, I’ve known my bf since elementary. He knows I’ve had sex”.

    You stupid little bitch, I tricked you! , you never told us your (spineless) knew about your sluty past, “naturally” Your sluty past made you stupidest.

    He’s been watching you fucking every Chad in high school ?! No wonder you had to tell him, you are different now (since you found Jesus), just let the past be, in the past . What happened in the high school, stays in the high school.

    Congratulations, your boyfriend (spineless), should be the beta of the month. (poor guy, he waited for his turn.
    How does it feel kissing him, knowing, he has no clue, you come to the manosphere?

  70. As the Devil (Mr. ScribblerG) went down to Georgia, he have SJF a tip. Tell a narrative. A beginning, middle and end. Stop being verbose. Stop cutting an pasting walls of data. Point well taken. I’m not good at narratives so I compensate by saying too much shit. And cut and paste.

    So, Rollo. I love you man.

    Your message to Emily @ 1:02 pm today contains the essence of what your teaching has helped me as a man in my relationship and self-improvement by distilling what you have described over your thirteen years of teaching. My red pill awareness and subsequent improvement has disqualified my wife from playing hide the vagina on me.

    Your description of why Emily will dig her hole and keep digging while her and her man will wake up in 15 years and say “WTF, is this is good as it gets?” Let me tell others why you in the manosphere actually focuses on helping me and the men in the manosphere in relationships and self improvement.

    If you reverse engineer why Emily’s relationship with her mark will eventually fail, as described by Rollo, you see why my relationship with my LTR will succeed.

    With your help, Rollo, I have shrugged off the mantle of a slave. I am no longer ignorant of female nature and it’s consequences. I “just get it” as a lover, husband, father and business owner and as a friend to males and female in a dynamic social milieu. I’m amused and have mastery. I just get woman and don’t need to constantly calibrate the nature of woman. I’m widely aware of their nature.

    I don’t allow women to question my assertiveness, my Alpha awareness or let them control my desires. If I were to sublimate the most powerful impulse I have in order to acquiesce to my wife’s frame, what else will I sublimate? My parenthood? My professional skills? My friendship with others outside the family? My good guy friends trust and my honor?
    I won’t be optionless. What would that reflect about my wife, if I were actually optionless? If I don’t force the issues with her, then who is she? Does she really want to be dominant, does she really want to usurp authority and frame over a man that provides for her, her children and is wise and can think on his feet? That makes her comfortable. That is the oak tree to cling on to in her emotional storm? Does she want personal, long term security or not?

    Does she want a man that other women want to fuck and that other men envy? Do other men envy my position in life? Would other woman challenge my wife to fuck me enough so they don’t try to take me from her? Does she want to be with a man that other men want to be, and other woman want to fuck, because it confirms for her that she is of an equal or higher value to attract such a man?

    The teaching works.

    Thank you Rollo. I learned it. I’m living it. And I’m loving it.

    @Emily…
    ” I love the dynamic between males and females, how we are so different. ”</i.

    That's sweet. Too bad you are too immature to understand that this is what Maculine–Feminine polarity is the energy that drives the desire dynamic.

    Different is good. Equalism is bad. Polarity drives energy.

    Rollo teaches about a man shaking off the FI. A man that is unabashedly masculine and purposeful, confident and directed, living his chosen way of life with deep integrity and humor. Sensitive, spontaneous and spiritually alive with commitment to awareness and living his deepest truth. A man energized and totally turned on by the feminine. Not being shamed for being sexual so he turns to online humor sites and porn. He is a free man bound neither by outer FI social conventions nor inner cowardice.

    Polarity and complementarity. Not egalitarian equalism.

    Have a clue Emily. It's all there for the reading. Too bad you're not intellectually curious enough to really read through the hundreds of essays that Rollo has written and comment on them. Rather than post ad hominem comments instead of debating the merits of his essays.

  71. @Scribbler
    Well, there was your error, hun. You married someone of much higher ‘SMV’ than you. It’s harder for both men and women to stay committed when they can have better options. And obviously you had the misfortune of marrying someone shallow like that. I’m sorry about that.

    You should have married someone of lower SMV. Or, better yet, you should have been more ‘RP aware’ and torn apart your wife’s confidence and self-esteem in the first year of marriage. You should have reduced her into an insecure wretch like Liz, who listened to your every command and constantly dreaded you cheating on her because she wasn’t good enough, and then you would have had a stable, ‘happy’ marriage (this is actually what the folks over at RoK advocate, not sure about Rollo.)

    As for this beauty:
    “We live in a society where women have rejected the conventions of chastity and monogamy when in their sexual prime – and their sexual agency is lauded throughout the culture. Women slut it up? They get applause. Men do the same?”
    Yeah.. effing right.
    Is that why when my dad saw me with a boyfriend he pulled me out of high school, homeschooled me for a few months, and then sent me to an all girls highschool, all while my brother was dating many girls?
    Is that why when guys had sex in HS their buddies congratulated em, whereas the girls called each other sluts.

    No, you are completely wrong. There is still a very unfair double standard in our society, and yes, some feminists do go too far to reverse that standard, by shaming men and supporting sluts. But really, they are just fighting against the double standard that has always existed in our society.

    @Cave
    I do agree with marrying young (if you are religious, don’t marry at all if you aren’t.) But, the statistics prove you wrong. Young couples are far more likely to divorce. That’s just the facts.

    @Keyser,Dutchman
    I’ve actually been w my bf before, and he’s had other girls before too.
    You guys have an odd fascination with him. I should really ask him to come on here.

    @Rollo
    The threat, Rollo, is that terpers will convince more and more men to treat us as commodities, just as feminists are convincing women to treat men as such.
    So, let’s say, hypothetically, my bf takes the ‘red pill.’ What happens then? He’ll demand sex from me, I’ll stay true to my religion and principles, so he’ll leave me (as many men do when they take trp, just look at the reddit forum!) and then what? He’ll sleep with a few dozen sluts until he turns 30/35 and he’s an empty shell like Roosh, his hedonism having destroyed himself and society.

    By the way bb, I actually agree with this:

    “Do you really want to be with a man so optionless? What does that reflect about yourself? Can you only do so well as a man who wont force the issue with you? Do you really want a man who defers to your authority and frame? How does that man stack up when it comes to your own personal long term security?
    Women want a man that other men want to be and other women want to fuck. What man envies your man’s position in life? What woman would challenge you to want to fuck him enough to try to take him from you?”

    No I don’t want a man like that. I do not want a beta, for sure. I want a man other women want (and they do want my bf.) I don’t want a man who I can yell commands at. No way. Men should be dominant.
    But I’m not sure I agree with you guys on what dominance is.

    Is demanding sex from your abstinent girlfriend a sign of dominance? No, that’s a sign of a scumbag.
    My priest is celibate for life. He has a very dominant persona. Why? Well, he’s not celibate cause he couldn’t get women but because he loves God. Similarly, my bf is abstinent until marriage both because he loves God and because he loves me. I think he knows we will be happy together when we marry. I think he’s bored of screwing sluts and wants a stable faithful partner. I respect that, I consider that a sign of dominance and maturity.

    You guys won’t get that because… for you guys sex is literally the most important thing in the world. As I said, high school mentality.

    But I must say hun I’m very happy you wrote such a long post to educate me <3. Have a merry Christmas.

  72. ” I’m very happy you wrote such a long post to educate me . . .”

    He didn’t write it to educate you, princess.

  73. ” You should have reduced her into an insecure wretch like Liz…”

    It’s only because I had a very high N count before the age of 16, when my daddy caught me in flagrante delicato and threw me into an all girl school.

  74. Let me guess. This poor bastard who lives and sleeps sexlessly with you is the one daddy likes. A psychologist could have a field day with what you’ve revealed about yourself in this forum.

  75. Okay, okay.
    Taking a break from the internet for a while.
    This conversation is going to go nowhere that’s healthy. I already know your future, Emily. I’ve known lots of people like you.
    Best of luck though.

  76. ^Sorry Liz.
    But yknow, red pill women like yourself treat other women poorly all the time. One post on RPW reddit was from a woman who was scared about being ‘post-wall’ and divorced. The red pill women tore her apart and mocked her endlessly.
    Really put a sour taste in my mouth.

    And you women, by posting here and encouraging these people, encourage that behavior. So I don’t feel very sorry. You HAVE to be insecure to support misogyny. Simply the truth.

    Best of luck to you too. Merry Christmas.

  77. “Go back to dancing, apparently that’s the only way you know how to socialize.
    Quit the posturing and fucking learn something here for once.”

    Oh Snap! 🙂 I knew you had it in ya.

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