Open Relationships

Functional_cuckoldry

During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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CaveClown
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“scribbler mindfucked the men here. Gratz, scribbler. Sucks to be weak-minded.”

Did you really just call the other men here weak minded?

Blaximus
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CaveClown
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Jesus fuck ASD. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Always picking fights, always spouting nonsense. Always hiding behind your aspergers instead taking responsibility for your words, attitudes, and lack of fitting in with this group.

I’ve held my tongue and just scrolled you. But now I think you’re just a joke.

Go back to dancing, apparently that’s the only way you know how to socialize.

Maybe you should dance with men, then you’ll have a chance to relate to them better.

Quit the posturing and fucking learn something here for once.

keyser Soze
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@Emily, “Keyzer, I’ve known my bf since elementary. He knows I’ve had sex”. You stupid little bitch, I tricked you! , you never told us your (spineless) knew about your sluty past, “naturally” Your sluty past made you stupidest. He’s been watching you fucking every Chad in high school ?! No wonder you had to tell him, you are different now (since you found Jesus), just let the past be, in the past . What happened in the high school, stays in the high school. Congratulations, your boyfriend (spineless), should be the beta of the month. (poor guy, he waited… Read more »

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As the Devil (Mr. ScribblerG) went down to Georgia, he have SJF a tip. Tell a narrative. A beginning, middle and end. Stop being verbose. Stop cutting an pasting walls of data. Point well taken. I’m not good at narratives so I compensate by saying too much shit. And cut and paste. So, Rollo. I love you man. Your message to Emily @ 1:02 pm today contains the essence of what your teaching has helped me as a man in my relationship and self-improvement by distilling what you have described over your thirteen years of teaching. My red pill awareness… Read more »

SJF
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Damn, imagine if I hadn’t left the > off the:

…..different. ”</i

Emily
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@Scribbler Well, there was your error, hun. You married someone of much higher ‘SMV’ than you. It’s harder for both men and women to stay committed when they can have better options. And obviously you had the misfortune of marrying someone shallow like that. I’m sorry about that. You should have married someone of lower SMV. Or, better yet, you should have been more ‘RP aware’ and torn apart your wife’s confidence and self-esteem in the first year of marriage. You should have reduced her into an insecure wretch like Liz, who listened to your every command and constantly dreaded… Read more »

kfg
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” I’m very happy you wrote such a long post to educate me . . .”

He didn’t write it to educate you, princess.

Liz
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” You should have reduced her into an insecure wretch like Liz…”

It’s only because I had a very high N count before the age of 16, when my daddy caught me in flagrante delicato and threw me into an all girl school.

Liz
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Let me guess. This poor bastard who lives and sleeps sexlessly with you is the one daddy likes. A psychologist could have a field day with what you’ve revealed about yourself in this forum.

Liz
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Okay, okay.
Taking a break from the internet for a while.
This conversation is going to go nowhere that’s healthy. I already know your future, Emily. I’ve known lots of people like you.
Best of luck though.

Emily
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^Sorry Liz.
But yknow, red pill women like yourself treat other women poorly all the time. One post on RPW reddit was from a woman who was scared about being ‘post-wall’ and divorced. The red pill women tore her apart and mocked her endlessly.
Really put a sour taste in my mouth.

And you women, by posting here and encouraging these people, encourage that behavior. So I don’t feel very sorry. You HAVE to be insecure to support misogyny. Simply the truth.

Best of luck to you too. Merry Christmas.

Andy
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“Go back to dancing, apparently that’s the only way you know how to socialize.
Quit the posturing and fucking learn something here for once.”

Oh Snap! smile I knew you had it in ya.

Andy
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Hey Emily, You know that feeling deep, deep in the pit of your stomach? The one that tells you that something is wrong? It doesn’t go away. I just gets stronger and stronger. And you won’t marry him because of that feeling. And you know that’s true. You want to ignore it, you pretend it isn’t there, you WANT to want him. But you don’t. The longer you wait to end it the harder it is, and the more painful it is. We’ve all been there. It definitely sucks, but that’s life. Loading...

IAS
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The holiday “cheer” is running strong in the comments lately…

Well, from my part, genuine thanks and happy holidays to Rollo.

I also wish well to both ASD and SJF for helpful comments in the past weeks.

There is a lot of wisdom in the comments, which I think is a bit unusual in the internet. But even here, one has to sift through a lot of text to find the good parts.

CaveClown
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Andy,

Yeah man, he pissed me off.

Andy
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I just want to give him a hug.

Merry Christmas guys! Love you!

I’m going out with my boys on Tuesday. If I don’t cold approach some hot girls please publicly eviscerate me for my embarrassing pussification! I’ll try and post an FR. If I don’t get slapped or make a girl cry I will declare it a victory (both things have happened to me in the past). lol.

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@ Emily I married someone of much higher ‘SMV’ than myself. It is harder. But I bring other compensatory features to the table. “There is still a very unfair double standard in our society, and yes, some feminists do go too far to reverse that standard, by shaming men and supporting sluts. But really, they are just fighting against the double standard that has always existed in our society.” The double standard doesn’t just exist in society, it exists as a factor built into biology by Mother Nature (otherwise known as God). Eggs are expensive and sperm is cheap. Pay… Read more »

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” “There is still a very unfair double standard in our society, and yes, some feminists do go too far to reverse that standard, by shaming men and supporting sluts. But really, they are just fighting against the double standard that has always existed in our society.” The double standard doesn’t just exist in society, it exists as a factor built into biology by Mother Nature (otherwise known as God). ” This. Why make an idol out of equality and equivalence. Who fucking cares about that shit? “We’re not fascinated by your boyfriend, we’re fascinated with how he copes and… Read more »

kfg
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The so called double standard only exists as a function of assuming that the sexes are essentially equal except for a bit of plumbing.

The assumption is false and there is no double standard. The sexes are sufficiently dimorphic that there are two single standards, each equally appropriate to their application.

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Wrong, SJF, it did exist in mother nature (to a certain extent.) But with modern contraception, a woman can now be as slutty as she wants with (almost) the same risk as men. There is no longer any reason for the double standard to exist.

Anonymous Reader
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Gosh, “Emily”, you are sounding less and less like a 20 year old philosphy major on Daddy’s dime lately. I wonder why that is?

SJF
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So, because women can be as slutty as they want to be, then men should not have free will, choice and possess a trump card called commitment?
Men should respect slutty behavior in women? What is your point? You’re upset the double standard (or male standards) are wrong? What should we as males advocate for?

SJF
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I’m curious Emily, how do you just get, understand and interpret what KFG commented @ 9:53 am?

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[…] was competing with scribbler_g (I’ll call him ‘S’) over at Rollo’s blog for the hearts and minds of the readers.  S got very emotional over a political issue where he […]

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Guys, thanks to all who responded with insight and help. I am mostly responding to Forge’s post here, but I think I also address the points Dutchman and ADS gave me as well. 
“You emailed her again? Lord. If you tell a joke and no-one laughs, do you tell it again in a funny voice? 
I mean, I get it. Been there. Your beta brain just takes over and you make it seem like just the BEST idea in your head at the time, then you’re like ‘hey wait, aren’t you supposed to NOT do that?’ “ Yes, definitely it… Read more »

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@Emily: it is doubtful you are called into a sacramental marriage with your boyfriend. Stop wasting his time.

If you want to decommodify yourself enter the novitiate. Or become an Amish woman. Either way have no thought of yourself for two years. Then you might have gained value.

You are naive: it is all about sex: every time you attend Liturgy the priest, in persona Christi inseminates you. How else do you think the Word is to bear fruit?

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“Wrong, SJF, it did exist in mother nature (to a certain extent.) But with modern contraception, a woman can now be as slutty as she wants with (almost) the same risk as men. There is no longer any reason for the double standard to exist.” If I put a condom on, I don’t instantaneously lose my desire to bang her. Wonder why that is? Bilologicallt speaking, banging her is now pointless. Lol. Anyways. For the benefit of the learners here…. The thing is, Emily isn’t WRONG exactly. She’s just speaking chick. Aside from the equalism stuff and the born-gain virgin… Read more »

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Forge, Rollo, with all due respect, some of “Emily”‘s writings, tropes, turns of phrase seem…familiar, somehow. Maybe it’s just an accident that “Emily” sometimes seems to write very much like the woman she claims to admire? Forge She gets pissed off and annoyed, rather than turned on, by the sorts of things she reads here bc by talking about it we demonstrate to her that we don’t ‘just get it’ and so the thought of us being dominant towards a woman is repulsive rather than attractive. Eh, that’s one way to read it. Another way to read it – Rollo… Read more »

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@Anon, Yes that seems to make sense on some levels. Why wouldn’t a woman in an LTR play out her own version of shit tests for enjoyment? Sometimes it can come in the form of teasing. They want that thrill and playfulness. With women being the creatures they are it can be easy for men to misinterpret if one hasn’t been clued into how they operate. Playing with her in a verbal wrestling match could be a good way to initiate foreplay in some circumstances. I have completely underestimated the importance and depth of shit tests with women my whole… Read more »

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@seraph

“And part of me was not willing to accept that this person, someone I had known, that has been so overtly friendly and receptive, would act like this, Red Pill be damned! It just didn’t make sense for people to act like this…”

I know that feeling. It’s like you can’t wrap your brain around the fact that a person you defined in pre-RP terms fits right in with the RP knowledge you now possess.

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@Forge the Sky – I’m of the mind that it would be better if everybody became more aware of the baser aspects of our human nature (both men and women, intra and inter-wise), and the BS machinery in our minds/culture that hide this these truths from plain awareness, which I think, all together = redpill Perhaps if that could be achieved we could all get on to better shit (like let’s get past the shitty shit and get on to perhaps the less stinky shit, whatever that is – for each to find out I guess). All this machavellian bullcrap… Read more »

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Anonymous Emily is FILTERING. Not everyone is failing. Note when she reacts with contempt, when she has indignation, and when she starts doing that whole ‘cocky/sassy’ thing girls do around guys they’re trying to impress. It’s a combined bit of projection (she finds cocky/condescending attractive and so imagines men so as well) and a shit test – to see if we’ll crumple or not. But this is for the lurkers. Eventually you get to a place where you only think about this stuff if you want to do a post-facto analysis. I don’t think Emily is insanity. Insanity has tried… Read more »

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I’ve got to say things have seemed a little dark around here in respect of views on LTR’s. I know it’s an occupational hazard in dealing with the RP as one must be cynical for the most part to keep their eyes open for FI bullshit and general female fuckery. I point this out not because I think it’s misplaced, lord knows we see a lot of fuckery all around us, but also because I think it’s not all that bad all the time. I know some will suggest that I am being moron for not being sufficiently cynical to… Read more »

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Wild Person, good luck on that opening with “Emily”. Should be interesting to see what kind of response you get. I predict either silence, or hamsterbation. Girlies don’t like walls of text as a rule…

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Forge: Anonymous Emily is FILTERING. Not everyone is failing. Yeah, I know. She tends to ignore me except when something really gets under her skin, like the “lies women tell” graphic about N. And we all know why… But it’s Rollo she clearly has the hots for. But this is for the lurkers. Eventually you get to a place where you only think about this stuff if you want to do a post-facto analysis. Right, but note that some men seem to approach that state in an intuitive way; they know something is off in a presentation by a dearie,… Read more »

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@Seraph Good, good. I remember back when I decided I needed to prove to myself that shit actually works like RP says it does. I met my old oneitis in a coffee shop and pulled out all the stops with my charisma, ability to explain and empathize. I spent about an hour seeing if I could get her to see my perspective, see how her actions were illogical, see if she could at least modify them a bit out of compassion for me. She listened closely. She had some degree of sympathy, and was quite upset to see how much… Read more »

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Wild Person:
Emily – what would a woman’s life be like of there were no men or children?

A feminist named pretty much Joanna Russ already wrote that story back in the 1970’s. You should read it, but only in an Equalitarian way of course…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Man

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Forge Then I was like, okay. This shit’s real. And started focusing on gaining the POSITIVE reference experiences RP also predicts are possible. Excellent little report. The thing about Game is, a man doesn’t have to believe in it to make it work, although confidence surely makes it much more effective. I spent about an hour seeing if I could get her to see my perspective, see how her actions were illogical, see if she could at least modify them a bit out of compassion for me. She listened closely. She had some degree of sympathy, and was quite upset… Read more »

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Agent p,

I agree. 100% (except I don’t know if anyone here has been dark per se)

Its really easy to get cynical with all this.

Monogamy is a perfectly acceptable sexual strategy for a red pill man.

Sure, awalt….but not all women are the likes of Emily either. (Only good for sex)

I’m just enjoying what my wife has to offer me as the woman she is.

Andy
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Damn, this guy is getting really good at selling shit.

Blaximus
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Emily doesn’t respond to me either. So I’ll just throw this out there. Women are pretty damn good for sex. Damn good. It’s almost as if they were designed naturally for it or something. I reject the assertion that men here think that women are only useful for sex, or that men here act like sex is the most important thing ( between men and women ). All men are best served by having a better understanding of sexual dynamics in the 21st century. Sex is important and necessary for a satisfying and healthy life. This is true for both… Read more »

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Well said blax. Emily’s boyfriend reminds me of me. (Except my wife was a virgin) She played the religious hide the pussy game. At first it was “handjobs are a sin”, then after she did that anyway it was, “blowjobs are a sin”, then it was sex, then it was unprotected sex, etc… “We have to save SOMETHING for after marriage!” Then it was me fleeing a party after I bragged to her ex boyfriend that I took her V after 3 months and he never even got her pants off after almost 2 years. That dude was gonna kick… Read more »

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@Cave

“Emily’s boyfriend reminds me of me. (Except my wife was a virgin)”

Dude, Emily is a virgin too! Don’t you know all of that stuff she did before doesn’t count?

“Lots of slut shaming herself and premarital sex guilt. I could of handled all that much better.

If I’d had the red pill at the time, I would not have failed so many of her Jesus shit tests.”

Does she still hit you with the religious stuff? I noticed elsewhere you said you are no longer Christian.

Blaximus
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Cave, I try to understand and respect a woman’s religious objections to premarital sex for the most part. I may not like it, or agree, but I’ll keep my penis safely in my pants. But…. If a chick has been fucking and suddenly finds religion, and puts the pussy on a Jesus lockdown, I find that silly and insulting. I guess I’ve never been overly religious. Maybe that’s why my views are what they are. I consider myself spiritual, I’m a HUGE fan of Jesus but I have issues with a lot of his fan club at times. If a… Read more »

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Dutch, She is nondenominational Christian now. I’m actually a Buddhist. She hits me with “love” shit tests. Man, woman, one flesh type of deal. She reads a lot of purple pill style religious books that talk about being a good wife to me, which I’m happy to encourage. I usually play the love shit tests with some humor or sexuality. Sometimes I get serious and tell her I love her, but she’s gotta work for it lol. She’s red pill aware (ish). Openly disagrees with it (“hate speech”) and clings to the soul mate stuff, which is expected for a… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Dutchman

Don’t you know all of that stuff she did before 16 doesn’t count?

FTFY.

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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@Cave

“Now that I think about it, with my height insecurity and all, her ex had like a foot on me…interesting.”

And yet she didn’t fuck him….

CaveClown
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“If a virgin is trying to hide the pussy, well..okay. I can accept that to a great extent.” See, I didn’t accept it. I wanted her. That was all I knew. For the longest time I equated her making me wait with obligated compliance. Even rollo made a post on questions I asked trying to get to the truth of it. Still, I always thought that she was never into me because I assumed if she was, Jesus would of went out the window and she would of banged sooner. I guess I thought of it as If she was… Read more »

CaveClown
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“And yet she didn’t fuck him…”

Nope. For sure she didn’t, judging by his reaction later, and her nervousness and blood when I took her.

He was like 6’6″, 250 pounds. And a much bigger cock. (Saw him in locker room, we were friends…)

God I love it when shit clicks

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Cave

Thank you. It is a pleasure watching you do your thing. Here’s to much more ” shit clicking ” in time my friend.

Dutchman
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@Cave

Just wondering… does her BPD seem to be a lot more in check than it used to be?

CaveClown
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“Just wondering… does her BPD seem to be a lot more in check than it used to be?” Hmmm…. She has electronic copies of her treatments for BPD. I had never seen them, until I figured out the password the a couple weeks ago while she was Christmas shopping. (I check her phone and computer often) The diagnosis sheet said, “displays traits and behaviors common to those with bi-polar disorder and/or borderline personality disorder” The therapist went on to explain that he did not normally treat BPD’s. He said in his notes though that he took her on as a… Read more »

Dutchman
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Yeah dude I hadn’t seen you mention it in a while so I suspected that being in your frame probably helped her with that shit a LOT. That is GREAT evidence against the “game is just manipulating women!!!” BS. Props to ya.

A Definite Beta Guy
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But we mostly agree that our SO should know the truth. After all, if he’s gonna judge then he aint worth it.

You are so, so, so stupid.

I know of women who think like this. They are in college. Like you. They are idiots.

The women out of college actually finding man for life-time commitments are terrified of the slut label, despite whatever nonsense they spouted in college.

Everything changes when you leave that little bubble, darling. It takes a few years. But it changes.

SJF
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SJF
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CaveClown “I’m pretty happy with her right now. Most my problems are just inner game stuff now…” Hey, that is actually good news and should be a positive. Because you can control and self-improve you. She (or other women) will always be an un-knowable, and uncertain variable. I’m not so sure about Dutch’s assertion that: “I suspected that being in your frame probably helped her with that shit a LOT.” Doesn’t her BPD side resent you keeping frame because the hallmark of BPD is “always be pulling you into her frame”? I’m sure she was pissed at first. And maybe… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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The reason most therapists will not treat BPD is because a BPD case is always looking for how to get the upper hand. She will always be biding her time, looking for an opening. If she can’t find one eventually she’ll become upset and lash out. Always keep an eye out for it.

Emily
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Emily
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@Anon You guys keep trying to compare me to insanity as an insult. I don’t consider it an insult. @SJF You, as self-respecting males, should not hold that double standard. If you fuck lots of sluts, then so be it. Have at it, but don’t judge women who do so! If on the other hand, you respect yourself and commit to one woman, then sure, you can claim to be of a different standard. As for what KFG said… it’s the same logic we used to segregate and enslave black people. Different standards since they are different. Aside, but we… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Rollo- I want to take a break in the action to wish you and your family Happy Holidays. To be repetitive, Thank You again for providing such a useful space here for men to gain knowledge, not only of the nature of females and relationships, but also knowledge of self. the work visible here is pretty damn special. I truly appreciate the work you put in one this site. It has been, and still is, fascinating and challenging to come here and get motivated to THINK. Your work here has filled numerous gaping holes in my past and has given… Read more »

Emily
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Emily
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But blah blah blah it’s Christmas and I’m here arguing with you guys.

Soooo I won’t post for a while now. BYE GUYS.

(Btw, I don’t post here for ‘tingles.’ I do enjoy the conversations though.)

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Emily-

” The red pill is gonna save us women? Really? Why is it that 99% of women react so negatively towards this whole thing?
Maybe it’s cause we realize it’s a reactionary movement that wants to set back the status of women back around 50-100 years? Well, luckily for us we have the developing world as a good example of how life was like for women before women’s rights.”

Incredible.

Lmao.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/57516705.jpg

Women react negatively because feminism has put/ is trying to put women in a power position over men. Is life better since the advancement of women’s ri….oh fuck it. Never mind.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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” But blah blah blah it’s Christmas and I’m here arguing with you guys.”

Fuck. They moved Christmas to the 23rd??? I gotta get home asap and open ma presents.

SJF
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What EM posted at 8:34 pm with the handle of @SJF has to be one of the most moronic, juvenile things I have ever seen posted on the internet. And I’ve seen my share.

keyser Soze
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keyser Soze
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jCPjnuwdKkw

Emily, get out of your bf’s place, there are no tingles.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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To All of the Commenters here- I wanna wish you guys Happy Holidays as well. ( btw, funny- I’m listening to Closer by NIN while reading Emily’s comment..I dedicate that tune to her ) Anyway… I hope everyone here has a GREAT holiday!! All of you here ( I was gonna type out each name, then I was like ” fuck” and I edited..), it is a pleasure to come here to this male space and interact with you all. I’ve said time and time again, there is great work being done here in this blog – masterful stuff. My… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Oh, and Emily, Merry Christmas. In 2 days babygirl.

CaveClown
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“Don’t compare me to your gf. Those fake religious women annoy me as well.”

I was talking about my wife, none of my previous side chicks were fake religious women that I know of.

SJF
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Blaximus Wonderful thoughts. Right back at you. I feel the emotion. And I cosign your thoughts about the other commenters. I approach red pill awareness and game as if my life depends on it. (It doesn’t, but that mindset helps and I’m an enthusiast.) Keep giving us the masculine energy that you have so naturally have exuded here and expressed well. You are a wonderful role model not only for us married young fifties guys, but for any man. I see you, through your comments, as A Man in Full. Whatever that means. And your words for YaReally are reinforcement… Read more »

CaveClown
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“Cave- I LOVE YOU MAN!!! Nothing more to say after that semi-homo-erotic outburst. Lol….”

Back at ya bro! (No homo, lol)

To Rollo, and all the commenters here that have shared their experiences, thoughts, and opinions to help guide me in my masculine self improvement…thank you and merry Christmas!

SJF
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@keyser Soze December 23rd, 2015 at 9:14 pm Emily’s best strategy for herself is actually to lock down her boyfriend in marriage. You are not thinking in her frame and what is best for her with her current skill-set. She’ll do well in that place. He won’t. I’m sure he will make a good mule for her. And it will be the best she can do. (A red pill aware masculine male, or an Alpha male would actually suck for a partner of hers.) I’m not out to advocate for her, but if I were, that is the advice I… Read more »

stuffinbox
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stuffinbox
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High up in the Rockys they say you dont lose your woman you just lose your turn.I say you cant borrow my chainsaw or my woman,they come home FUBARed!

SJF
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SJF
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I understand the the metaphor, which fits perfectly to the narrative of the original essay. There is no way I will ever let anyone borrow my chainsaw. (Actually, any one of my five chainsaws.) It never ends up well and it is best not offered. Women need limits to be set. Men need to set limits.

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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emily thinks we want to take things baxk to 50-100 yrs ago.
hmm, personally i think not only should women not vote but they shouldnt drive, own property or be able to engage in legal contracts.
saudi-style. no holds barred patriarchy. as god intended.

merry christmas

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . no holds barred patriarchy . . .”

. . . is defined by default paternal ownership of children.

Wild Man
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@Emily – “Hmm, sorry we women are holding you back so much”. Don’t know what you mean by that. I would appreciate it if you would explain what you mean.

I think you may have misinterpreted the sincerity of my intentions with the thought experiment, but I would like to clear the air on your comment above, first, – hope you’re game.

SJF
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“….but I would like to clear the air on your comment above, first, – hope you’re game.”

Good luck with that. Emily is quite simply a sniper. She will not engage. Because she is firing blanks. No firepower.

Resort to amused mastery with her. For amusement.

Anonymous Reader
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“Emily”
@Anon
You guys keep trying to compare me to insanity as an insult. I don’t consider it an insult.

No, dearie, I’m dealing in reality. You have a habit of writing just a wee bit like Bites from time to time, it is an interesting coincidence.

Now, how about that blue-balled beta boy you used to sex up that you’re currently cockteasing, hmm? No wedding date, no sex, you won’t turn him loose…my, my, my, girlie, you are just plain mean.

Scribblerg
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Scribblerg
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Marriage advice, from Emily, lol. That’s just too rich. FYI I was insides quite a catch too, sweetie. One of the reasons that I put my foot down with the wife is cuz other HB9s regularly threw their pussies at me.

An observation for you. This God of yours gave you ears and a mouth. Why don’t you shut your mouth for a while and actually try and use those ears of yours for a change?

Pinelero
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From Anonymous Reader, “Huh. Just had a thought. Reading YaReally’s FR’s and viewing some of the vids I’ve gotten a conscious appreciation for the importance of spiking emotions in a woman’s life, how a constant emotional state (such as men often have) is just grey-out to them. Then some shit tests are as much for a woman to generate her own emotional spikes as to reassure herself that “yeah, he’s got it”. So running a version of the same Game YaReally et al refer to – spike emotions, run her on an emotinal roller coaster, etc. – is one way… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Any references on how to refine this method so I sill look like the stoic oak instead of a nagging female?”

Smile when you say that, pardner.

Andy
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Andy
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@Blax

Merry Christmas dude. You’ve helped me a ton. I’ll buy you a beer some day for putting up with my insolence. 😇 Same to Rollo and YaReally. Still working on killing that ego. It was a big one.

@SJF – I want to have your baby. Feel free to lecture me anytime.

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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“No, dearie, I’m dealing in reality. You have a habit of writing just a wee bit like Bites from time to time, it is an interesting coincidence.”

Can Rollo see IP addresses on here? Could Emily, in fact, BE Insanity?

CaveClown
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“Doesn’t her BPD side resent you keeping frame because the hallmark of BPD is “always be pulling you into her frame”? I’m sure she was pissed at first. And maybe your current situation is because of you keeping rock solid frame?” I honestly have no idea. I’m probably out of my mind thinking this could work with her. She has a bunch of good qualities though, so I’m inclined to try and make it work. Buffer? Probably. “Besides inner game for yourself, what else would you consider a problem now?” My biggest problem by far is clinical depression. Mostly related… Read more »

CaveClown
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“So running a version of the same Game YaReally et al refer to – spike emotions, run her on an emotinal roller coaster, etc. – is one way in an LTR / marriage to keep her from resorting to ever more intense shit-tests, aka “shit testing to destruction”. It’s a deeper version of “play with her, play WITH her” that I didn’t see before.” “Fantastic idea… I’ve been countering my wife’s shit test with my own counter shit-test.” Yareally says to “spread good cheer” and i agree with that. My LTR game runs basically like this: Strong boundaries combined with… Read more »

Pellaeon
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@Seraph What I needed to do at this point is completely and utterly illustrate to myself what you guys have been telling me, what I have been reading for years. I need to squash that little voice completely by illustrating directly how fucking delusional it is. Does that make sense? Yup – burn your hand on the stove. In my experience, one of the best ways to train your instincts is to follow them, and then keep in mind what everyone else is saying when you get your results. It’s one thing to listen to what people on a forum… Read more »

SJF
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@Pellaeon She is not actually a troll. She is our literary-like foil for Red Pill Awareness and Game. ( a foil is a character that shows qualities that are in contrast with the qualities of another character with the objective to highlight the traits of the other character. The term foil, though generally being applied for a contrasting character, may also be used for any comparison that is drawn to portray a difference between two things.) “Why do you care if she ignores you?” I personally don’t. I’m indifferent to her attention. However, I do find it an amusing sport-game… Read more »

redlight
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redlight
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She is our literary-like foil for Red Pill Awareness and Game.

Exactly. in her last sermon from the mounted, it was beautiful, classic, FI BS for men, lines like:

One way is to find love, find someone who loves you and therefore there won’t be an element of manipulation and control in your relationship

If on the other hand, you respect yourself and commit to one woman

SJF
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SJF
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Lol, exactly, you got it Redlight.

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo

Insanity got banned for spamming the same c&p’d comments in every thread.

You know to be fair I’ve seen you do that in response to like a million comments here, jefe. wink

Roused
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Roused
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Gentlemen,

Merry Christmas to all!

You are all my new tribe. Can’t think of a better gift than what I get here daily.

Rock on!

Striver
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Striver
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For those who want a primitive explanation, here is how I see it. The reason why we have nice things are the opposing forces of hypergamy and violence. Hypergamy is a fact, we are not a naturally pair-bonding species. Violence is all that men have done to counter hypergamy. In violence I am including not only actual physical violence but all rules, customs, laws, social expectations, that have been put in place to counter the hypergamic force. A lot of the manosphere, including here, tends toward an “all hail the alpha” attitude. In true primitive societies alphas, or the males… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” In true primitive societies alphas, or the males with preferred mating dances, likely had targets on their backs.”

The life span of the first kings tended to be rather short and even today a goodly number don’t die of natural causes.

” . . . over time we’ve evolved to feel that the violence and restraint on hypergamy is inherently wrong.”

Nonsense. We’ve been quite deliberately programmed for it.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Men instinctively feel rage upon seeing a man, cocksure and arrogant, surrounded by giggling women. Unless you think you are that guy too, then he’s just a peer. It’s just that now men don’t dare do anything but mutter ‘douchebag’ through gritted teeth. Armed government goons prepared to put you behind bars for clocking a dude tend to have that effect. It’s a great time for alphas and the hypergamy that loves them. (I will say, though, it’s tough not to feel smug when some dude you’ve never met feels the need to AMOG you from across the coffeeshop to… Read more »

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@the asd shamer
you’re a hopeless shitbag. we should understand you yet you hit below.the.belt, lash out, judge other guys.and are a.huge fucking whiner.
bitch

@forge, sribb, blax n all the others here doing good stuff n contributing (suwukong and.others i cant remember how to spell): merry christmas n happy new.year
@rollo: merry christmas n a happy new year. thanks for this blog.

the guys who offered to email with me- you’ll here from me shortly. thanks a.lot. appreciated smile

Emily
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Emily
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“Is life better since the advancement of women’s rights?” It is for the women. The arguments against this are amusing. I wonder, was life better for black people before civil rights or after? Hmm Gladly, Rollo dear. But first, note that most of those are privileges, not rights. And most of those have logical reasons behind them. As in.. Women have the right to choose parenthood. Well, if the man had to carry the baby for 9 months and deliver it, he would get the right to choose parenthood. But he doesn’t have to carry the baby, therefore he doesn’t… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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Nice, masculine, equalist ham-fisted comment that drifts into cliche and keeps it from being of any use at all, Em. You missed what KFG wrote on December 23rd, 2015 at 9:53 AM. Or you didn’t comprehend the meaning. The day you get your laundry list of equalist goodies is the day that inter-sexual Masculine-Feminine Polarity has no gradient of flow and you and your partner’s sexual desire dies in a boring death spiral. (…….Oh, wait. that was part of the plan. Neuter him for Jesus. And Feminist ideals–you know the ones you willingly bite down and chew on in college.… Read more »

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