Open Relationships


During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

709 comments on “Open Relationships

  1. a married couple i know tried to have an open relationship because he thought he would get threesomes, instead the wife was banging guys from words with friends. i know a poly couple, he is a fitness guy with 6-pack abs who has higher smv and that’s the only reason he isn’t home alone while she’s out banging dudes.

  2. NewlyAloof:

    You are going to make this painful, aren’t you. Read my posts, read the link to the post I gave you (To, with “The List”, which men have lived by for 15 years–that version is just the one from 2005).

    RADIO SILENCE. STFU. Do NOT try to win anyone over. Beta down, Alpha up, behind the scenes.

    The bottom line is, you still want to be married to this woman and hey, that’s your call. But she is going to divorce you eventually, and take all your shit if you are not prepared. Sharing sob stories, even if framed in whatever way, with her Aunt, or ANY CHICK is a losing proposition.

    In fact, as dumb as chicks are, they are HIGHLY SENSITIVE to guys trying to side-shame another chick, or guys trying to get sympathy, and they have a visceral reaction. SO MANY MEN have posted what you just did, back in the forums of the old DadsDivorce, only to taxi around again and admit they kept making mistakes, not following advice.

    S.T.F.U. Period. Women are NOT programmed for empathy, and I will go you one further, from my own life experience in my particular job and with divorce and other guys’ divorces:

    If you “confide” with your aunt or ANY woman, even if you think you are being clever, coy or dressing it up…do NOT be surprised when they show up on the witness list for YOUR WIFE, and then testify how “uncomfortable” you made them feel, bashing INSERT PERSPECTIVE OF WITNESS (“I really could not believe he was saying this about the mother of my nephews”, I could not believe he was saying this about my Sister/Daughter/Second Cousin” whatever). Nevermind that they will probably IMMEDIATELY REPORT what you’ve said, however they can do it, to your wife asap…which in turn puts her on alert that you are pretending to be cool, while privately bashing her.

    TEAM WOMEN will be in full force and you will have to change your logon to hide what a SIMP you were, and you will have gained wisdom AFTER THE FACT.


  3. Consider the how the concept of an open relationship serves a woman in light of the ovulatory shift behaviors that are prompted by the cyclic nature of women’s sexuality:

    Read through these articles (they’re short) and then go back and read the cartoon here again. You’ll begin to understand the reason that women promoting open relationships and open Hypergamy serve the interests of women far more than those of men.

  4. I should also add that the difference between women’s embrace of ‘poly’ relationships (socially positive) is also indicative of women’s opportunistic concept of love versus men’s idealistic concept of love.

  5. NewlyAloof,

    Depending on what state you live in be prepared to lose 50% of your assests.

    Others are right, get cash set aside, as much as you can without drawing suspicion. I had a buddy who offered to stash things for me, always had my back.

    DO NOT give her any indication you want a divorce or are even thinking about until you have planned it out and talked to a good lawyer. Shop around, ask hard questions. Make sure they damn well have good experience writing divorce decrees.

    Stay good and right with your kids! Love them up!

    Affairs sometimes matter and sometimes not depending on what state you live in. My state and court they did not care. Be prepared for her to fight for full custody and lie about you. If you love being a good father and want that NEVER EVER settle for anything less this joint or shared custody. If it comes to all this make sure your lawyer can write up a solid shared parenting plan that kicks in as soon as you or she files.

    Do a credit report on her, all you need is her ss number. Find out if she has racked up debt you don’t know about. You will be liable for any debt she has until you’re separated.

    That’s enough to keep you busy. Hope whatever happens is what you want.

  6. @Jeremy & Redlight
    Thanks for the quick responses! I’d like to try to paraphrase back your advice to make sure I’m understanding you both properly.

    To me, it sounds like both of you are basically offering the same advice, but worded differently: that I’m jumping the gun and worrying about something that’s not really going to come up (as an actually viable opportunity anyway) until I’ve gotten more of the fundamentals handled.

    If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that my focus right now should be on solidifying my ability to bring women into my life, and I can consider the next steps once I’ve handled that. It also sounds like Jeremy is further saying that even if I did ultimately want a monogamous relationship, I should not entertain one until I have established a mentality of abundance.

    Indirectly, it sounds like you are both saying that my fears about sliding back into betatude were well-founded, but for an entirely different reason than I was mentally approaching the problem- that I need that abundance and ability to replace a girl fairly easily before considering any kind of relationship.

    Is that a correct summation of what you guys are telling me?

  7. @Pellaeon

    Is that a correct summation of what you guys are telling me?

    Every relationship I ever tried to push forward immediately turned me into a beta. Every single one. Choosing a life partner is supposed to be a woman’s decision anyway, might as well let her come to that decision. As such, the SMP somewhat perversely only works right for both parties if the guys have abundance and the women are trying to choose. I guess that only sounds perverse because blue-pill land convinces the men that it’s their job to push and commit and it’s the women’s job to have abundance.

  8. What’s with the hate Rollo? I asked a legitimate question and you lost your frame. I have learned a lot here, most things I agree with some I do not. I would think you would respond more like a Rational Male to Rational Male.

  9. @zodak

    …the wife was banging guys from words with friends. i know a poly couple, he is a fitness guy … that’s the only reason he isn’t home alone while she’s out banging dudes…

    lol, I’m just waiting for the fire and brimstone. I hope to get a selfie with Lot and his wife as they’re fleeing the U.S., before she turns to salt, obviously…

  10. Holy crap that tweet Rollo. 3 dudes to satisfy one chick, eh?

    If I were still a Christian, I’d say Exodus 20:2-6

    Literal worship of women.

  11. @pellaeon

    Is that a correct summation of what you guys are telling me?

    that is essentially correct. in particular watch out for oneits

    best wishes

  12. @waco

    you missed the point. did you click on the link that Rollo provided? That was not Rollo directly talking to you, that was a quote from CH

  13. @dutch
    Yeah dude. Real life story no b.s. The cops in canada can be extremely corrupt, especially in big cities like montreal and toronto. I knew a guy who had to flogg weed to this total a$$hole cause if he didn’t the cops would tear him a new one. iow the ahole bought weed for cops and god forbid you didnt give this prick good shit at a good price. Judges taking suitcases full of cash for reduced.sentences. blah, blah.
    ‘Debbie’ stood out amongst all the shit I’ve seen due to her utter ruthlessness. People get divorced everyday. She treated it like ww3. That’s why I put a lot of distance betwen her and myself. Psycho. Probably a sociopath but how would I know? I’m no shrink buf I’ve seen plenty of crazy.
    This is the thing for me: Rollo stands.out in the manosphere because he cranks out essay after essay nailing it. I knew about 60% or more of this stuff but I had no overarching theory AND was blind to womens underlying code: they dont have one-amorality. I foolishly believed they were actually capable of a higher level of functioning: loyalty, honour, guy code stuff.
    I now know to approach my interactions with them as though they are dogs. I’ve worked with very high dominance alpha male studs. Dogs other people wouldnt due to their aggression. I turned the dogs.around. I dont believe that can be done with many women.They are just too deluded/damaged or dishonest.
    This site is an incredible gift. I used to feel like a dirty old man (47) when young women expressed interest in me. I now realize that is F.I. propaganda. To many young women I would be awesome to spend time with and bang: good-looking, intelligent, funny, tough but fair and good at sack drill. I think I need to just let go and far.I can get with these early 20’s throwing iois at me. I just do my thing. I have no plan when i do it, it just comes natural. I charm the shit out of them. Yareally can exlain shit at a level I cant even begin to approach. I just go and talk to them. Sometimes I’ve just gone up to a woman and said ‘hey, what’s up’…..’you look bored/tired/worried’…..I find.they usually give me an opening or.I create one. Mostly dropping the idea that Im an annoyance vs they all want it. I actually worked with an english guy who said it all the time: they all want it. I think it’s time to give it to them!

  14. In some ways, this reminds me of the SR-71 Blackbird .

    Stay with me guys. See , much like the SR-71s testing and development, most women practice polyamorous behavior under Black Project cover.

    Mr Alpha ? He never happened.
    Ex bf ? He’s in the past.
    That Girls Night Out to Vegas with the orgy and the male strippers doesn’t count either, because it never happened.

    Just like the SR71 “never happened ” until we declassified it.

    All this “Open Relationship” business does is socially declassify what women have practiced since time immemorial.

  15. ” . . . they are HIGHLY SENSITIVE to guys trying to side-shame another chick, or guys trying to get sympathy, and they have a visceral reaction”:

    Holy fuck; this guy is a . . . woman. Ewwwwwwwwww!

    ” . . . they will probably IMMEDIATELY REPORT what you’ve said . . .”

    Because they actually are women.

  16. A woman who is with an alpha would never EVER imagining sharing him.
    The alpha, trigger tingles, the beta, triggers crazy ideas in her head.
    Only alpha men will have no problem with open relationship (but his woman would cut his cock off) , meanwhile, the beta, would agree for two reasons , 1, he knows, he’s got no other options. 2, she will leave him if he objected , so he better pretend, he has an ” open minded “.

    A she Donkey, who is married to a horse, will never asks to have an open relationship (the chances are, she will get…….a Donkey).

  17. this is amusing, I was going to write something about poly relationships, so I signed on to fetlife, which I haven’t done for a while, and there was a message to me. She is:

    In An Open Relationship
    unpartnered (in a Dom/sub sense)

    so there you go, open relationships do work, aside from the spouse

    A guy friend of mine has been poly for many years. Never married. Never LTR. Has lived with women before but roommates with benefits. He’s BI. He’s not an alpha, but he does things as he wants to. He is a feminist who believes in nth wave feminism, but he has never given a shit about women. I knew one of the women he hooked up and her family, she wanted more, never got it, moved on.

  18. I just had a sickening thought…

    What if Hypergamy IS the default human condition for females AND a woman is behaviorally predisposed to be AF / BB when pregnant???

    In other words a woman becomes pregnant with Alpha seed. Then she is immediately behaviorally predisposed to look for the better deal provisioner or another alpha. So pregnancy (acquiring male genetic seed) is only half the evolutionary battle with women. They are biologically DRIVEN to seek the next big ride for their offspring to thrive.

    In a pure biological game theory way this makes total sense. If a pregnant woman sends out feelers for new suitors… a true alpha will fight them off. But if the father is not up to the challenge a new male seed provider gets acquired. AND if the female does this early enough can convince male #2 the offspring is his. The female wins either way and may come out much better in the end that sitting pat. (and perhaps a man is biologically attracted to women demonstrating their fertility)

    Now I think we see the social evolutionary function of laws and marriage. The ancients realized that it’s chaos to have this open competition over fertile females. Thus laws were created to prevent this very real threat of male to male aggression over pregnant women. And men were really valuable for defense and labor… so it makes sense that the true reason for marriage is to prevent Pregnant women “better dealing”.

    Now in modern times we scratch our heads about decline in marriage. But what if wide use of Pill based birth control is short circuiting this biological game? What if the pill (which tricks a woman’s uterus into thinking it’s pregnant so no egg implantation) is making women biologically predisposed to ACTING like Hypergamous Better Dealing pregnant women?

    And THAT is why we are having high rates of divorce. Empowered women are following their biological imperatives based on a drug deceiving their fertility biology.

    This has profound implications on explaining the behavior of women in western style medical care vs women in the rest of the world.

    And it explains why its standard practice in the non-western world for women NOT to intermix with men not in their family. These societies do not really have the problems we do.

  19. Catching up on some of the earlier comments in the thread:


    I can’t find a reason why a man would or should accept a open relationship when we/he can just spin plates & improve game. It just lines a man up for more providorship. Open relationships that is.

    Am I just misunderstanding what it means to “spin plates?” When I hear that, I think of a situation where you basically just see these chicks to fuck. You maybe do a few initial dates, but then just call them over for sex and make sure not to introduce them to your friends.

    Am I just oversimplifying it in my head?

    I like the idea of having a girl, whom I’ve had sex with, to join me at a party with my friends. I like the idea of having my own girl along while hanging out with my buddies and their girls (and again, maybe this is just lack of experience talking, maybe that actually sucks in comparison to just booty calls). If nothing else, it seems to me that it would be good social proof that I can leverage to get with other girls at the party, and to help build that reputation of being a guy who has lots of options.

    All of that, and with no pretense of being exclusive – I’m going to both fuck and bond with other women as well. Is this something that would still be considered as “spinning a plate?”

  20. I’m surprised I was actually able to find this, usually I have difficulty hunting down an article I read before.


    A man in a non-monogamous relationship, or a practitioner of solo polyamory, always has at least one other option. If you’re upfront about it, or behave in a way which successfully implies it, your woman/women will never for a moment doubt that you have other options. Her competition anxiety will always remain high, which means she’ll be strongly attracted to you and for a very long time (unless you completely submit to her / relinquish all the relationship control).

    Tell me guys… how many “headaches” does a woman get, when she knows her man can simply kick her out and call over another woman to have sex with in very short order?

    Answer: 0. Zero headaches. She is always in the mood.

    My ex-girlfriend, one of my first adventures in open relationships, was once sitting on top of me in bed. I began escalating towards sex, and she told me that she “wasn’t really feeling it right now.”

    I put my hand on her shoulder, said “no worries” as I pushed her off, and reached for my phone.

    “What are you doing?” she asked anxiously.

    “I’m definitely feeling it right now, so I’m going to call someone else who’s feeling it and hang out with them. Maybe you and I can chill later on tonight.”

    You guys should have seen the look on her face.

    In the entire rest of our relationship, she was never once “not really feeling it right now,” ever again. Guys, those headaches and “not in the mood’s” are power plays. It takes a few minutes of foreplay for a woman to be aroused enough to want sex, if she isn’t already. When she plays that card, she’s testing your mettle. So play your bigger, shinier card: if you won’t do it, miss, someone else will. Game over.

  21. ” I like the idea of having my own girl along while hanging out with my buddies and their girls . . .”

    This is the social construct, a million miles away from natural behaviour. It didn’t exist until the global nihilism of post WWI.

  22. “All this “Open Relationship” business does is socially declassify what women have practiced since time immemorial.”

    Pretty much what I was thinking.

    The main difference in a woman openly stating that she wants an open relationship is that she is prepared to be honest about her intentions.

  23. ” . . . she is prepared to be honest about her intentions.”

    Because she feels she has him totally whipped, and wishes to whip him harder. And, contrary to the idea that women will never be poly with an alpha, she will likely describe to her side alpha how whipped her pet houseboy is and how often (i.e. how seldom) she has sex with him.

    An alpha Buddha may join in and play pimp game, against the beta, pushing the woman to suck even harder at the beta’s resources, so that she can spend it on him.

  24. Addendum: I have also been privy to women discussing how, rather than fighting over an alpha, they will share him to avoid conflict with each other.

  25. Ang Aamer:

    I posted before, I agree that hypergamy is natural state. If humans were highly monogamous, pair bonding creatures, then we’d probably be living in grass huts. No reason for a man to improve himself.

    So women are hypergamous. Men start fighting over them, then figure out the fighting is pointless and distracting from other missions of the society. So they make rules to make mate procurement more peaceful. Men make all rules, all customs, including marriage. Ten commandments, Hammurabi’s code, what have you, all written by men. Women have no incentive to write rules, they are going to be there in any society.

    Now women are hypergamous, but if you make a rule that they can be executed for adultery, they’ll think twice. Women may be feral but they are not stupid.

    Women are a resource to be exploited. Like food, air, water, etc. Can’t live without them. Their sexuality and breeding potential essentially has cash value. Men’s largely does not, not close to the same value. That’s where Rollo’s SMV chart is inaccurate. In aggregate, women have more SMV than men, always will. As with other things, men need to master their environment, control it. Can’t just sit there complaining about the wind and the rain. Invent something, change the rules. But men make society. In the end, who gives a shit what women feel or think.

  26. I was in an “open” relationship for most of a year. It was at the tail-end of my only LTR, which lasted over 6 years… with only about six months of it having regular sex.

    It started with her having feelings for a male friend. I let her continue hanging out with the friend, but set boundaries.

    Those stretched, over time, and I think her reactions to those stretching were genuine, and that she’d respected my boundaries… but she was pushing to get me to say OK to my own cuckoldry. Eventually, I managed to rationalize it to myself.

    For a couple of months, I managed to ‘make it work.’ Basically I reduced her in my head to a plate, a girl that I was with for now and I’d find someone else as well, who was probably better.

    Then suddenly it wasn’t OK, when I remembered that I really liked this girl, and had wanted to marry her. I realized that I was losing out on so much productivity and putting so much energy into her by continuing to be her boyfriend and deal with her problems, and she wasn’t willing to be emotionally or sexually exclusive with me in exchange. I was miserable for an evening when I realized this, couldn’t sleep.

    So, I dumped her the next morning. It wasn’t long after that that I found the red pill.

    What surprised me was that when I dumped her, she asked if I wanted to have sex. For what was basically the first time in years, she initiated.

    With a TRP lens, I think she either – suddenly felt like I was alpha again (she had self-esteem issues and at earlier points felt very unworthy of me, but I tried to push her up because blue pill co-equal partners fantasy)… or was just terrified of losing her main orbiter fallback plan and wanted to secure it with sex.

    Whether she cheated on me or not, she got me to agree to my own cuckoldry, so I can’t blame her for me not knowing how to dominate her properly. AWALT. Don’t do an open relationship. “Polyamory” where the man isn’t alpha as fuck and building a harem of submissive slaves and FWB is not in the man’s favor.

  27. “Addendum: I have also been privy to women discussing how, rather than fighting over an alpha, they will share him to avoid conflict with each other.”

    This sounds to me like a few women talking about a hypothetical situation.

    If it existed in reality, I would expect that it would be more a case of a temporary keeping of the peace while each one regroups and works out a way of undermining the other by whichever means possible.

    The greater the potential gains of being the sole female “beneficiary” the more vicious and underhanded the fighting.

    The Alpha would be best advised to gain as best he can from the competition for his affections and then once a victor emerges from the scrap, fuck her senseless a few times and summarily evict her from his life while protecting himself from the inevitable butthurt and claims on her behalf.

  28. “This sounds to me like a few women talking about a hypothetical situation.”

    I knew the guy as well. You are hearing what you want to believe.

    “If it existed in reality, I would expect that it would be more a case of a temporary keeping of the peace while each one regroups . . .”

    One of them ended up living with me for several years after I AMOGed the shit out of the dude. Mistake on my part.

  29. Rollo,

    I was pursuing the more reproductive angle. I agree that for sexual attention that doesn’t lead to reproduction, the equation is different.

  30. The Last Psychiatrist made an interesting observation that narcissism in women is expressed through hyper sexuality (as trying to measure up to an ideal) while in men it is expressed as a drop in libido (can’t measure up).

    The narcissistic cuck might enjoy the process (open relationships) as it externalises his own inferiority and absolves him of his need to face the burden of performance. His supply comes from being a comfort boy.

    Other men fucking his wife becomes hot.

    Of course this necessitates the need to justify and promote the behaviour to allay his own innate inabilities and inferiority.

    As society becomes more reliant on autoregulation (online personas, social media, entertainment etc.) for stimulation (becomes more narcissistic) cucking will become the norm.

  31. “The narcissistic cuck might enjoy the process (open relationships) as it externalises his own inferiority and absolves him of his need to face the burden of performance. His supply comes from being a comfort boy.
    Other men fucking his wife becomes hot.”

    I’ve always wondered about this. Say a guy has a really nice car. Does he get a thrill handing the keys over to other people to use?
    The only thing I can think of is, perhaps, the case of a guy who drives a ghetto sled.

  32. Liz the more apt example would be if a man has a sweet ride but didn’t know how to drive, he’d take pleasure in other people driving the car and swooning over it. Of course his inability to drive would be construed to be his choice rather than his own fear of failure.

  33. @kfg

    December 17th, 2015 at 9:02 pm
    ” . . . they are HIGHLY SENSITIVE to guys trying to side-shame another chick, or guys trying to get sympathy, and they have a visceral reaction”:

    ‘Holy fuck; this guy is a . . . woman. Ewwwwwwwwww!’

    No, knowing what triggers women’s instincts is something any ‘actual’ man should know. Not bitching about advice to a younger cat looking for help.

    Btw, what kind of guy goes around saying “ewwwww”? LOL. Did you flick your hand up when you said that? You sound…bitchy.

  34. ” . . . bitching about advice to a younger cat looking for help.”

    If you read my comment again, you might find that it parses differently than you first thought.

    ” . . . what kind of guy goes around saying “ewwwww”? ”

    The kind writing dialogue for a character lacking reason and accountability, i.e. a woman.

  35. “What are your thoughts? Should I be open to a monogamous relationship (if the opportunity presents itself, it hasn’t really yet) just to get my feet wet?”


    I would say just fuck buddies for a while. Monogamy will probably teach you something about yourself, but you won’t learn the lesson unless you’ve spun plates for quite a few years first.

  36. Enrique, I did read and bookmark your posts. Thanks.
    Don’t take my hypothetical actions as desperation play on my part because they are not. I’m just rationally thinking about possible actions I can take in uncharted waters for me. You proved that my idea had serious flaws so I will not be trying them. That’s what great about this place. People can see what a man in the middle of a shit storm can’t.

    And you made me think hard about divorce and how shit can be turned on it’s head in a divorce proceeding. Made me realize that my wife has dirt on me that she could twist to make me look like a terrible person, so I have to put on a good face and try to enjoy things at home as long as I can to cement the bond with my kids for as long as I can. I have to also do the divorce preps you mentioned on the side.

    As far as getting some on the side to keep my sanity, I have all the attraction and IOIs from hotter women, but my logistics suck and it would be hard to pull off. If I go that route, I’ll have to be real careful, yet I’ll also have to figure out how that works in conjunction with dread game, which I feel my wife needs a good dose of.

    Thanks for all of your help, and that goes for everyone else here too. Invaluable support.

  37. “Women are a resource to be exploited. Like food, air, water, etc.”
    Ugh. I’m starting to think Liz and Lee Lee and all the RPW get off on reading stuff like this.

    Rollo, I don’t think I can post links. Aaanyway. I think human society has progressively evolved to be monogamous, simply because it produces a more stable society. ‘Sides, if promiscuity was natural, it would not be so risky (STDs, pregnancy w/o knowing who the father is), and you wouldn’t feel affection towards one person or jealousy towards sharing.

    On the other hand, humans do, like most mammals, experience the ‘coolidge effect.’ But I think most humans are mature enough to prioritize the incentives of monogamy than to trade it for the short term sexual excitement of a new partner. Most humans, anyway – not all humans are intelligent and mature, as people like Striver prove.

    1. I can show you genomic evidence of homosapiens regularly interbreeding with Neanderthals that would disprove your assertions, but even Abrahamic polygynous marriage traditions and acceptable sex practices will do.

  38. “Ugh. I’m starting to think Liz and Lee Lee and all the RPW get off on reading stuff like this.”

    lol. It turns you on too you know… You’re not going to do yourself any favors by burying your natural instincts in the name of religion. It’ll come out anyway except probably in an inconvenient way.

    “I think human society has progressively evolved to be monogamous, simply because it produces a more stable society.”

    The facade of monogamy has created a stable society. Society has never been truly monogamous.

    1. “I think human society has progressively evolved to be monogamous, simply because it produces a more stable society.”

      Said the 20 yo girl who’s proactively cuckolded her monogamous Beta BF with religion.

  39. “Said the 20 yo girl who’s proactively cuckolded her monogamous Beta BF with religion.”

    Emily rubbing one out: “Oh Jesus. Take me! Take me!”

    She receives communion alright.

  40. Yes Rollo, but polygamy has died out since then. Jesus Himself only talked about monogamous marriages, nothing else.

    Every successful society has been mainly monogamous. A large part of the decline of the West IMO is that much of the population no longer practice monogamous marriages. Instead, most people chase hedonism and sexual desire. So less and less children are born in traditional family units.

    And unfortunately, both feminism and the red pill teach their followers to be wary of monogamy.

  41. “Ugh. I’m starting to think Liz and Lee Lee and all the RPW get off on reading stuff like this.”

    No. But whenever someone casts aspersions on me, claiming I hold a view or said something I didn’t say it kind of makes me feel like I’m in highschool again. Just in time for Christmas, too.

  42. “‘…if promiscuity was natural, it would not be so risky (…pregnancy w/o knowing who the father is)”

    What? Cuckolding is a risk?

    Yeah, for the MAN.

    It’s only a risk for her if she risks losing her BB, which with the government, welfare, child support, and men that are willing to become involved with single moms, is NOT LIKELY.

    The worst thing that can happen to a man is getting stuck raising some bastard.

  43. “But I think most humans are mature enough to prioritize the incentives of monogamy than to trade it for the short term sexual excitement of a new partner.”

    Followed by:

    “A large part of the decline of the West IMO is that much of the population no longer practice monogamous marriages. Instead, most people chase hedonism and sexual desire.”


    Let me fix this for you:

    ……both feminism and the red pill teach their followers to be wary of monogamy modern marriage.

    Rollo: “Again, this is usually the result of a guy without the patience to really read what I’ve posted here for the past two years, and developed in my writing over the past ten. If it seems like it’s TL;DR material it probably wont resonate with an attention deficient reader.”

    Rollo:”You also asked if there’s a particular advantage to monogamy that can’t be achieved in spinning plates, and besides having raised a whip-smart, beautiful, honor-roll-student, 13 y.o. daughter, not really. Does that sound odd or callous? It probably does because I don’t think a comparison of advantage to disadvantage in either lifestyle is really an issue. I think they’re two different ways of living and one is not necessarily better than the other – just different for different people at different phases in life. For the record I’m not anti-marriage, I’m anti-never-saw-it-coming-pollyana-how-could-she-do-this-to-me?-hypergamy’s-a-bitch marriage.”

  44. “Every successful society has been mainly monogamous. A large part of the decline of the West IMO is that much of the population no longer practice monogamous marriages. Instead, most people chase hedonism and sexual desire. So less and less children are born in traditional family units.”


    Guys, I’m really sexually frustrated here. Like, OMG. I need cock bad. What is wrong with my boyfriend?!? Doesn’t he think I’m attractive? I bet that guy @Striver would be a REAL man and give me what I need. Okay, Focus! Focus! Jesus knows my thoughts! I’m such a slut! Why am I doing this? Oh yes… Society. Right. Yes… Be a good girl so I can go to heaven.

  45. Newlyaloof…….I have been there…….no sex, separate bedrooms, disgusted wife…..all of it. Just being in the same house with her created tension for her, and increased her antipathy.

    The advice here is good. Bleed what money you can, and get as much as you can…..understand that historical child caring split can be used as precedence when you do the custody split (if she does most of the child rearing, she will have a strong case for maintaining majority custody), make sure she doesn’t feel physically threatened by you especially when the situation is so tense, keep your business away from her family and friends.

    You’ve got a long road back, and probably unlikely to make it. I tried for 5 years and it made it worse, emotionally and financially. You have the benefit of the red pill, mine was a bit late. Here’s my advice:

    – assume the alpha traits…..aloof, confident, competent.
    – don’t talk too much, especially about your intentions. Laconic and unperturbed are what you want to portray.
    – hold frame. You probably got here in part because her frame has dictated throughout the marriage. Sounds like you are addressing that, which is commendable.
    – don’t fall into beta and supplicating behaviours to win her favour, this will work against you (see frame, above). No vacations, gifts, etc. Make her earn them.
    – come to terms with the fact that your life will change in the event of divorce. Face the fact that you might have to move, get new friends, see less of your children, etc. This is often a huge issue for men, the fear of change.
    – steer clear of openly committing to saving the marriage. She needs to know that you would be willing to walk if things don’t work for you. This is key. All about having hand; remember that people respond to the fear of loss.
    – lift weights regularly, commit to more exercise/fitness, get sharp new clothes. Up your social value.
    – go out alone or with friends more. Familiarity breeds contempt, and scarcity breeds attraction. Get out of the house.
    – work to ensure that you don’t present yourself in an unfavourable light, so no sitting on the couch scratching your balls eating Doritos.
    – game her to the extent you can. Teasing, calmness, letting her know that her emotional instability doesn’t affect you.
    – understand that, with game, life as a middle aged divorced man is pretty good. Amazing what independence and new pussy can do for your quality of life.

    I don’t know if you can recover here, but these are all things I would do if I had it to do over again. Women can’t help but respond to these things…..use biology to your advantage.

    Best of luck and reach out if you’d like more advice.

  46. @Doubter, thanks for that detailed response. I’m doing a lot of the points you mentioned, so I feel good about that.
    In fact, got a big bonus recently and yet can’t even share the enthusiasm with anybody. More blood for the vampires and all.

    Again, I hope Rollo can address this remaining, lingering question: How does a man prepare for a divorce and not have affairs that could be used against him in court, but at the same time instill dread that a faltering wife needs? It’s a fine line, so hammering out the fine points would be great to see.

  47. The “poly” crap is just the newest bullshit excuse for women that want to openly fuck around on their partner. Rather than admit the truth; that they aren’t ready for a monogamous, committed relationship and just want to slut around, they instead try to assert that it is an immutable and hardwired “sexual identity” that is equal to hetero or homosexuality, and thus are to be free of negative criticism or judgment by others.

  48. @aloof

    affairs that could be used against him in court

    isn’t this no longer possible?

    likewise you can’t use Chads in court either

  49. @newly,

    “Again, I hope Rollo can address this remaining, lingering question: How does a man prepare for a divorce and not have affairs that could be used against him in court, but at the same time instill dread that a faltering wife needs? It’s a fine line, so hammering out the fine points would be great to see.”

    You should keep that EXACT goal in the forefront of your mind in the way you do everything related to her. Like go through your day calibrating everything to present that image. When you’re getting dressed think “Given the fact that I’ll be doing X today, which one of these shirts most suggests that I’m THINKING about the fact that I want to look good” as opposed to days when you’re not doing shit purposefully dress down but not to an excessive degree. Be subtle but calibrate like a motherfucker.

  50. “@aloof
    affairs that could be used against him in court
    isn’t this no longer possible?
    likewise you can’t use Chads in court either”

    One of my closest friends is a top divorce attorney.



    “He shouldn’t have the kids because he has all these whores running around all the time and that is not something a child should be seeing. He separates from loving wife, leaves me ALONE, and immediately starts having sex with other women! While he’s still married! How could he, the monster!”

    Can she prove you have had an affair? Probably not. Can you prove she fucked chad? Probably not.

    Which means it is her word against yours…guess who wins?

  51. @Cave

    Sorry if this is an annoying question, but like, have you ever talked to your buddy about the mindset of those family court judges (specifically the male ones)? I always wonder about their psychology like is it “I’m the knight in shining armor who will rescue these princesses from their evil asshole emotionally abusive bastard husbands” or “Fuck I hate the way these cunts fuck over these dudes but the law says what it says and I could get in trouble with the bar or the voters or whatever if I don’t interpret it in a feminist friendly way”?

    I also wonder if there are ever judges who, they THEMSELVES have been burned by a cunt ex-wife in a frivorce and are like “Fuck it, I’m burning this shit down! Sole custody to allllllllllllll the dudes.”

    Again, lol, sorry for the esoteric fucking questions. I’m just obsessed with knowing all the angles about shit lol.

  52. @Dutch Cave, good points.

    What about this. I only use FaceFuckBook to keep tabs on the wife, but thinking about dread, I just friended a few hotties that had friend requested me many moons ago but I had ignored. I accepted an old dude friend’s request as a hedge so it looks better. SEE! I am thinking like a fucking lawyer already.

  53. The affairs business matters more for men in divorce than it does for women. I have not seen a woman stripped of custody because she was having an affair, as long as she keeps the paramour away from the kids while the divorce is pending (I have heard of cases in my state where the court adjusts custody if she crosses that line, but it doesn’t always happen — depends on judge, circumstances, age of kids etc.). For the man, it’s a broader thing, such that an affair that is reasonably well proved out (say, using PI-generated evidence, which a lot of people do in divorces) is often used against the man as an indicator that he isn’t stable enough to have more than X amount of time with the kids because he’s a bad influence and so on. It’s another double standard in the family courts.

    The key thing, though, is getting with an excellent, man-oriented (as in, they only represent guys and they do it well) family law expert in the state where you live, because the family court practices do differ quite a bit in different states. This makes it very hard to get good specific information for the state where you live on the internet — although the general advice available is still useful in almost all states, you will want more specific advice about how the courts view certain specific things in your particular state, and that’s what that lawyer can tell you.

  54. Yes Rollo, but polygamy has died out since then. Jesus Himself only talked about monogamous marriages, nothing else.

    Incorrect again…

    29But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30″For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. – Matthew 29-30

    Even Jesus agrees, there is no ONE, and there are no “soul mates“.

    See? I’m really just doing the Lord’s work here.

    Every successful society has been mainly monogamous.

    Misattribution of cause and effect. The fact that successful societies are generally founded on Patriarchal monogamy neither proves nor disproves human’s being naturally predisposed to monogamy.

    I can prove to you with biological evidence as simple as women’s menstrual cycle and the AF/BB Hypergamous sexual strategy that extends from it that your presumption is false.

    However, socialized monogamy exists and cultural advancement flourishes in spite of our evolved sexual strategies. When the social limitations that incentivize monogamy are compromised or removed entirely we see exactly how predisposed to polyamory and polysexuality humans really are.

    Monogamy is a social contract, Precious, not an evolved adaptation.

  55. @newlyaloof

    I wouldn’t obsess about dread too much. You might want to get her to the point where she LIKES you again first.

  56. Dutch,

    I live in one of the most conservative states in the country, so keep that in mind.

    It operates like this here:

    1. The welfare of any under age 13 children is priority #1

    2. Custody is assumed at 50% by law unless good reason to alter is given (see rule #1)

    3. Finances are assumed at 50% unless good reason to alter is given (see rule #1)

    4. Women and men both are expected to bring in a full time income

    5. Alimony is only awarded in extreme cases (high income disparity, disabled wife, etc)

    Those are the basic rules here. It is expected that all divorces will go through mediation ONLY, and that the Judge will only have to sign off and not actually hear testimony or make decisions.

    If it does go in front of the judge, according to my friend they are partial to the children and not the female or male specifically.

    However, he says that it is far easier to paint the man as the bad guy, resulting in the judge siding “with the children”…which means they go to mom.

    He’s seen many men lose custody over affairs, and “excessive drinking”

    There is a push towards genuine “equality” in the courts (my friend is an MRA), but make no mistake the man is not on equal footing against “the poor defenseless wimminz”

    His favorite saying…

    “As the man, emotions will cost you”

  57. It’s amazing how people confuse red pill with the purple one…..

    Because 90% of red pill males still hold onto blue pill ideologies just with a twisted bitterness towards women.

  58. @Cave

    “5. Alimony is only awarded in extreme cases (high income disparity, disabled wife, etc)”

    So just because a chick has been a housewife for the whole marriage, that doesn’t mean she will get alimony?

  59. @newlyaloof, there’s really not much I can tell you since from what you’ve described your soon-to-be Ex is too far gone.

    Before he sold out completely, even Athol Kay would have a husband evaluate his situation before considering whether his faltering wife was in fact worth making the effort for. There’s simply a point when a woman’s perception of you reaches a rubicon and it’s more effort than it will ever be worth to attempt to change it for her.

    Ask yourself this, what is the best case scenario you can imagine between you and your wife? Now ask yourself if that scenario could EVER be realistic. Then ask yourself if it even approaches an achievable state, what will it take on your part to change her mind about you and what will it take to maintain that changed perception.

    Then read this:

    Iron Rule of Tomassi #7

    It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was.

    Now ask yourself, is her leaving you or you leaving her just a formality at this point? Has she not already checked out of the marriage?

    Beware, once you initiate your departure she will become just as sexual, if not more so, than she was when you first met in order to reestablish frame. When faced with the emotional, comfort and material loss women ALWAYS resort to what they know has always worked for them to first attain it – sex.

    I should add that this, once again, yet another illustration of women’s opportunistic concept of love conflicting with, and playing on, a man’s idealistic concept of love. As I’m fond of saying, the best sex you will ever have with your otherwise frigid wife will be after a near-miss break up – never the insipid “date night” Oprah told you is your responsibility to “keep it fresh” with your wife.

    Men in this break up state almost always acquiesce and make up thinking that the incident instilled some real dread based change in their wives. They are almost universally disappointed, falling back into the same old routine and sexlessness after 3 months. Only now that card has been played, so the effort to repeat the incident that seemed to work will now seem contrived on the second go-round.

    That’s when things get even worse because on reconciling after the first breakup attempt you established that your love idealism makes you spineless and Beta. She picks up on that and now it characterizes you in the second, third or whatever attempt.

    If you’re going to cut, commit to it and do it. Don’t pull the bandaid of slowly and painfully, whip it off in one briefly painful stroke, then move. Walk away on your feet the first time; don’t let her walk on you while you’re on your knees after the fourth try.

    You may not have her love, but you will have her respect.

  60. “@Cave
    “5. Alimony is only awarded in extreme cases (high income disparity, disabled wife, etc)”
    So just because a chick has been a housewife for the whole marriage, that doesn’t mean she will get alimony?”

    In my state? No, she would not get it automatically. She is expected to work. Alimony is very unusual in my state.

    Now in a situation like mine? Where I make in a month what she makes in a year? Yeah, alimony would be likely.


    Listen to Rollo man, seriously.

  61. Aloof, Rollo just made the argument, and it’s true. Every man, even prospective Red Pillers have a little White Knight inside that WANTS to believe the relationship dynamic can change. It can–for the worse.

    You are only allowing her to reload by trying to make it work. It’s a relationship with yourself at this point. You need to be planning asap.

  62. If you’re going to cut,
    commit to it and do it.

    Don’t pull the bandaid of slowly and painfully,
    whip it off in one briefly painful stroke,
    then move.

    Walk away on your feet the first time;
    don’t let her walk on you
    while you’re on your knees after the fourth try.

    You may not have her love,
    but you will have her respect.

    ~Rollo Tomassi

  63. The ironic part of cuckholdery and hypergamy is how often it backfires, or once a normally alpha-seeming male bends slightly to his woman’s ways for posterity, then gets compartmentalized as “beta provider” and the deep sexual connection looses it’s luster.

    I allowed myself to fall into a situation as I described above by the mother of my only child who I was engaged to, and never got as far as the marriage, when we split partly due to her “feeling attractively inadequate” after blowing up and keeping on pregnancy weight. In short, she cheated because I wasn’t telling her 24/7 how pretty and attractive she was still, when over a year after giving birth, she was still a blob, my dick went limp. I did however still have sex occasionally with her, but her own extreme insecurities essentially ruined the physical side – the cheating for which I didn’t discover until many months after it had started occurring.

    What she failed at was properly compartmentalizing me, rather than turning the compartmentalizing wand on herself. Women won’t put themselves into any compartment, which would indicate self-imposed restriction, in a restrictionless feminized environment.

    She refused to get off her ass and do anything to help her own perceived lower self-image. And frankly, a woman 35-45lbs heavier than I impregnated, who senses no urge to rid herself of the weight, if not only for herself, but my maintained sexual interest in her too, needs to place the blame on her, not me, with her immoral actions that tore a family apart.

    Now in her quest to find a more “alpha” male than me, she’s landed with a guy whose her captain-save-a-hoe, and just about as beta-symp as you can get, but parades around like he’s a “real G.” Dudes now got 3 kids from 3 different mothers. Ghetto life choices take precedence over rationale so often. I just LMFAO at the whole charade. Meanwhile, my ex knows I’m sifting through girls, everyone of which has her beat in looks, and typically better quality. Don’t you just love it when you beat them at their own game?

  64. In the entire rest of our relationship, she was never once “not really feeling it right now,” ever again. Guys, those headaches and “not in the mood’s” are power plays. It takes a few minutes of foreplay for a woman to be aroused enough to want sex, if she isn’t already. When she plays that card, she’s testing your mettle. So play your bigger, shinier card: if you won’t do it, miss, someone else will. Game over.

    Wow, Palaeon……that’s so true. Never thought about it like a power play. That’s a great, great comment.

  65. “You are only allowing her to reload by trying to make it work. It’s a relationship with yourself at this point. You need to be planning asap”


    It’s only a relationship when both are committed, engaged, and putting effort into it. And, whomever is less committed and least engaged has the power.

  66. Newlyaloof…..couple of points.

    Rollo is right. Your shit marriage is likely doomed. When the woman cannot stand even the sound of your voice, it’s a long, long, long way back. And unlikely. But, I know in my case, I couldn’t rightly break up the family until I had exhausted every single opportunity to turn things around. And it didn’t work, so I left knowing I had given it my utmost.

    Leaving a marriage is counseled early and often in the manosphere, but it’s really, really hard to do when you’re in the middle of it. You can stay, but make sure you are clearly mindful of what’s good and what’s toxic for you. See a dealbreaker (affair, abuse, etc.) give yourself permission to bolt immediately. Otherwise, use the time to put as much cash out of the way as possible, work on yourself, and practice game. Not sure the age of your kids, but focus on them and making the upcoming transition as painless as possible. Also, develop contingency plans on living arrangements, etc. to have in case things go awry.

    Re dread…..don’t worry about it. Dread game won’t do anything for you….she hates you lol. Focus on the points you’ve been given here, and go with that. At least you’ll have some practice being your own man, cause when you divorce, you will be a hot commodity. You will be surprised at how much a new woman can love and appreciate having you around, which you’re undoubtedly not getting now.

  67. @Rollo. thanks man.
    What I don’t get is, she used to be hot for me but after the first kid, she changed. Didn’t help that she had two c-sections and a hernia and sex has be uncomfortable for her ever since. Even when she was still hot for me she complained about that. Combine that with the fact that she’s 45, has gravity effecting her tits and gutt (still attractive though), no finances, no savings, and two kids, you’d think she would have sense, but we all know bitches be crazy. Right now I have an ex that coming into town that she can’t stand and gets jealous of. Why? Women just make no damn sense, so I’m planning accordingly.

    My ideal body type is curvy in the right places (no heffers) and some big tits. I always joked that that’s how I knew I really loved my wife because she was petite. We just instantly hooked and we tight as fuck for many years. We didn’t plan to have kids but it just happened, and she’s been struggling to be the great mom she is. But the price of that struggle has been at my expense.

    Anyway, just venting. Love all the advice. Makes a dude feel like he’s not alone in the nut house.

  68. Rough times, @newlyaloof.

    Tons of good stuff about the logistics of the circumstance here. I don’t know much about divorce law and so on so I won’t comment on that. And I personally think that Rollo’s assessment is very likely correct – saving this circumstance would be very difficult and even if successful would likely prove to be a pyrrhic victory.

    That said, I still want to rip ya a new one wrt your game ‘n’ frame. Andy dropped this:

    blockquote>”I wouldn’t obsess about dread too much. You might want to get her to the point where she LIKES you again first.”

    And that’s the essence of it.

    Your issue is a lack of congruence, and a lack of intuitive understanding of when certain tools are warranted or likely to be effective. That’s not an insult, it’s an evaluation of your current ability. When I got the redpill I was in a disintegrating relationship, and for a good long time my attempts to game it up to save the relationship were uncalibrated and mostly just made me more unlikeable – a ‘real’ asshole rather than a sexy asshole. By the time I started to ‘get it’ it was too little too late.

    So here: dread only works if she likes you/is attracted to you emotionally and/or physically. If some ugly annoying girl is following you around a bar and you ignore her and are mean to her to drive her away, and she’s finally like ‘alright then, fine. I’m gonna go talk to that dude over there if you can’t shape up’ you’re just gonna be like ‘Sweet, cya.’ and sight to relief to yourself.

    You can only establish frame with someone when you already are creating a frame that they want to be a part of. So all this stuff where you take her debit card away if she isn’t good comes across as really weird and manipulative to her; she no doubt sees herself as being very long-suffering with your ‘crazy’ behavior lol.

    And this stuff about telling her to not disrespect you. I know how frustrating it can be to be disrespected. It seems to hit a very deep button in the male psyche, one that unambiguously tells you that you don’t have the power/hand you need to effect strategies of survival and reproduction. But you cannot explicitly ask for respect. Not even by punishing disrespect in an open fashion. If you cannot inspire respect by default, any attempt to elicit it only brings attention to that lack of default respect. My father is total alpha who we all revered and could draw tears from his children with a simple word of disapproval. But even in that position, he would occasionally say things like “I am your father, you don’t speak to me that way!” and it only ever generated resentment. My response to that was never ‘OK,’ or ‘I guess I should show him more respect.’ It was just a sort of angry ‘Don’t tell me what to do!’

    You seem to have the start of the mindset you need. But only the start. I’d drop trying to ‘game’ your wife and focus on developing your own MPO. Focus on becoming happy with yourself and what you’re doing, finding interest in passion in what comes before you, find a state where you can just be the sort of person other people like to be around.

    The relationship you had is dead. Drawn, quartered, deep-sixxed. It’s not impossible to create a new relationship, interaction, attraction with the woman you happen to be married to. But it starts with you becoming someone she likes, is attracted to, wants to be around. Then maybe she bites, maybe not. Not coincidently, if you become such a person she won’t be the only one drawn to you, and dread happens without any condemnable intentions on your part.

    Of course, this is devilishly hard to accomplish when you’re caught in a barbed net like you are. That’s why the marriage probably won’t make it. But your effort towards yourself will be invaluable either way.

  69. Heh, well I jacked the formatting of that one pretty royally. Don’t know how block quotes work I guess. Looks like it’s still understandable though.

  70. Need tips on mundane social interaction. Had an office Christmas party today. I always feel awkward at these sorts of things, but like I can START them out having a good time, being social and making people laugh. I’m always good at delivering witty remarks that are well calibrated and make people laugh, but I don’t know how to transition past that into more serious, less silly conversation. It’s like this

    Me: (funny witty remark that makes EVERYONE laugh heartily)
    Someone in the group: boring stuff
    Me: (another funny line, everyone laughs)
    Someone else: more boring stuff
    Me: (not wanting to just be an entertainment monkey) poorly timed, overly detailed boring personal stories
    Group: (polite boredom and indifference)

    WTF. I don’t understand what the next step is. OBVIOUSLY it’s stupid to just be all jokes. I’m not trying to show off. I don’t even like being the center of attention. I’m just naturally pretty funny.

  71. @Forge, thanks man.
    Yeah, the last two weeks, I’ve been solid as an oak in my calmness and frame. So much so, I realized what you said about the debit card and calmly told her, “Look, have the debit card back, but just communicate with me so nothing surprises me.” She agreed and has been calling me to ask about purchases, so she’s showing reciprocation. But the attraction thing is so fucking odd with her. This morning, just to humor myself, just to guage her reaction, and just because this is the type of crazy shit I do, I came out of the bathroom buck naked, walked up to her and said, “Do you think me shaving my beard makes me look skinnier?” You can see her state change and get excited enough to joke around with me and push me away, but on a typical night she has no mojo. Total mixed signals on her part.

    Anyway, I’m acting like it’s dead, doing my own thing, and self amusing like I’ve always done, with or without a relationship. People are drawn to me because of my positive spirit. Most people love me when they meet me. And the young waitress that waited on me today lingered around my area and talked much longer than she should have. lol.

  72. @Newlyaloof, this married stuff isn’t in my wheelhouse at all, but I assume you’ve read MMSL? And also I recently read a fantastic comment by a reader of Chateau Heartiste (back when it was still Roissy) who turned round his marriage – if you google “Heartiste Dave from Hawaii” it should pop up.

  73. @Dutchman – that last post really struck a bit of a chord with me. I do something similar myself in social situations (also connected with how I let interactions fizzle out with girls I’m hitting on).

    I’ve been doing some reading on it (Juggler method etc, or even a good book on networking – the advice is almost the same anyway to build rapport whether it is Game related or not) and basically the idea is to match and empathize the other person’s emotional state and then lead them to where you want to go and also being authentic and opening up yourself to let the other person open up and being genuinely interested in them.

    YaReally has a few good examples of this in his archives. It’s still very much a work in progress though to get to the point where people you’ve just met feel like they’ve known you for ages and open up to you about very personal stuff..

  74. @Calum, that Dave from Hawaii post was what broke through my beta defenses and finally turned my opinion around on the red pill.
    Time will tell. My situ may not work, but I’ll be fine in the end.

  75. @Culum

    Yeah it’s hard as FUCK for me to open up and be vulnerable. I think that’s why my personal stories also bomb, because I’m not at ALL comfortable relating them. To me it’s like WHY would I want to be vulnerable? But that’s where social comfort comes from I guess lol.

  76. @Redlight
    Thanks for the confirmation, and the advice.

    You didn’t specify, so I’m gonna assume you meant “Yes, that’s a good summary. Now here’s some extra perspective to keep in mind.” Thanks as well.

    @Other peeps
    Following up on this:

    Am I just misunderstanding what it means to “spin plates?” When I hear that, I think of a situation where you basically just see these chicks to fuck. You maybe do a few initial dates, but then just call them over for sex and make sure not to introduce them to your friends.

    Am I just oversimplifying it in my head?

    I like the idea of having a girl, whom I’ve had sex with, to join me at a party with my friends. I like the idea of having my own girl along while hanging out with my buddies and their girls (and again, maybe this is just lack of experience talking, maybe that actually sucks in comparison to just booty calls). If nothing else, it seems to me that it would be good social proof that I can leverage to get with other girls at the party, and to help build that reputation of being a guy who has lots of options.

    All of that, and with no pretense of being exclusive – I’m going to both fuck and bond with other women as well. Is this something that would still be considered as “spinning a plate?”

  77. @newlyaloof, I rarely link MMSL since Athol went full mayonnaise, but this was from his old blog and I think might help:

    Even if you win, even if she recalibrates, you still lose because the overt Dread necessary to shock her into it ends up becoming a constant negotiating for her desire. Nothing is organic, spontaneous or unsolicited.


  78. @newlyaloof

    Good, sounds like some solid internals/externals to start with. I suspect there’s some things you just don’t quite have pegged yet wrt generating attraction, otherwise you wouldn’t be confused about how up and down she is. Also possible there’s something you’re not getting about her state, or that something (like an affair maybe) is going on that you don’t know about. Not only does this draw her attraction elsewhere, it can make things confusing for a husband bc if you’re nice and acting in a fun/attractive way she’ll feel guilty instead of engaged. Also true if she feels like she’s not physically attractive to you (in which case a solution is to give her genuine (but rare) compliments about things she actually feels are valuable about herself).

    Thing is, focussing on any of these things too much only makes things worse. So I think my advice above holds – ZFG, have fun and work on yourself for yourself. Just try things and note her responses without attachment to success or failure to see what works and what doesn’t so your knowledge base grows at the same time.

    If something works inconsistently, it’s because of a variable you didn’t account for. Like, when I was a real amateur about this, I’d find things my girl would really like wrt escalation, then I’d try it again when she wasn’t in a turned on state in order to get her into a sexual state. Because I didn’t realize that it wasn’t the escalating action itself, it was that PLUS the attraction/arousal that was going on the first time I tried it.

  79. I think this cut and paste is appropriate to this thread. @Rugby originally tipped us off to this book.

    Yeah it is long, but I think it points out what not to do for those men starting a long term relationship, or trying not to screw up an existing relationship. I was talking to my daughter last night about her new boyfriend (who seems like a decent gentleman) and I mentioned that she can’t let a man be like the character, Dean, in the movie Blue Valentine. She mentioned that was a coincidence, she broke up with her last boyfriend last year soon after she and the former boyfriend after watching that movie and that he was just like the Dean character. Seems like he saw himself in Dean and knew it was over because it never began.

    Don’t be like that guy and learn from this, it’s prescriptive:

    From: Practical Female Psychology: For the Practical Man
    by Joseph South (Author), David Clare (Author), Franco (Author)

    “Stages of Manipulation

    When it comes to marriage, one man is as good as the next. And even the least accommodating is less trouble than a mother — Marquise de Merteuil in “Les Liaisons Dangereuses,” by Choderlos De Laclos.

    We believe that manipulation is an instinctual behavior deeply rooted within female biology. Manipulation is also a learned behavior, due to one’s need for survival. From a biological point of view there is not too much of a difference between biologically-rooted and learned behavior. In fact, from the point of view of both modem neurobiology and evolutionary psychology, behaviors repeated and learned over time become deeply rooted in the neurological patterns within the brain, to the point where the behavior becomes largely unconscious. As individuals are prone to choose behaviors which support survival, manipulation has certainly been selected as a desirable survival skill.

    Manipulation can be defined as the attempt to influence another person’s mind to achieve a certain outcome. Manipulation is very often seen as a negative thing. We, however, are not judgmental about manipulation, and actually consider it a positive feature, which has been designed to keep life continuing on this planet.

    In order to best manage relationships with women, the Modern Man should understand that there are various stages of manipulation that a woman will go through during the course of a relationship with a man.

    On the biological level, the female of our species is programmed to:

    1. Elicit a strong sexual attraction in one or more strong males.
    2. Feel a strong sexual attraction for such males.
    3. Become impregnated by her choice of male.
    4. Have a male to provide materially for both her and her infant child.
    5. Afterwards, she will subconsciously tend to operate in such a way so as to have her sexual attraction for that male decrease.
    6. Wash, rinse, repeat: she will tend to have more sexual intercourse and more children with other strong males.

    We call this process betaization, where the strong, alpha male is rendered beta — which means “secondary” or “subservient” — within the relationship, over a period of time. Quite often, this process occurs gradually and almost imperceptibly to both parties.

    Manipulation is widely used by women to achieve:

    • Safety and comfort for her and her children, with their survival being the primary purpose.

    • To thereby influence the man’s mind in such a way that he will feel compelled to protect her and her children, especially before pregnancy, during the pregnancy and throughout the children’s early developmental years.

    Female manipulation can be either creative or destructive, depending on the desired outcome. From the point of view of the man, female manipulation can be considered “good” when it supports life and the man’s interests and “bad” when it destroys life and/or damages the man’s interests.

    Succinctly, the more manipulation is used by a woman, the more it becomes natural and unconscious to her. It is like learning to play a musical instrument: at first it is difficult and one needs to pay conscious attention to each note being played, Then, as mastery is gradually achieved, manipulation becomes more and more unconscious.

    Behaviors are slow to develop and also slow to be unlearned. In the modem woman of the industrialized countries, the way instincts are expressed has changed slightly with time, due to less-demanding survival conditions. However, the influence of the female’s primal instincts on her behavior remains evident.

    It is important for you to learn to recognize manipulation. In fact for a woman’s sexuality to be satisfied, it is important that her manipulation attempts against her man not be too effective. You must learn to observe female behavior and give the right responses, with the goal of making her happy on the emotional level, as opposed to responding to manipulation attempts on a logical level.

    Learning to respond appropriately requires knowing the various stages of female manipulation.

    A woman’s attempt to own you mentally will follow certain incremental stages, which predictably occur with mathematical precision. We will now discuss each of the following stages in detail:

    • Testing the Male

    • Seeking Communication

    • Putting him to Work

    • Evolutionary Selfishness

    • Self-Determination

    Depending on the woman’s self-esteem, there are big differences in the way these stages will play themselves out. If a woman has high self-esteem (HSE), she will test you and manipulate you in a totally different way than a woman who has low self-esteem (LSE).

    Testing the Male

    “Let me be a little bitch to him/’ A woman knows on the instinctual level — and also on the rational level — that a man can impregnate a large number of women without too many consequences. In our modem age of mandatory child support, this is not always true in practical terms, but biologically it remains the case that the female has a much higher risk and burden when it comes to pregnancy than the man does.

    A woman also knows that a weak male will not be able to protect her or her children in any way. Imagine as a man how your thoughts about survival would be different if every time you made love to a woman you faced the possibility of carrying a baby in your belly for the next nine months, followed by the primary responsibility of taking care of the baby for many years to come. Imagine how you would feel if you knew that your partner could leave you at any time and impregnate other women and/or leave for war or for hunting. Get the picture? You would become much more selective in your choices of who to mate with.

    From this biological reality stems the deep need that a woman has to test the male for his physical and leadership qualities. In our modern society, the need to test for physical qualities and financial stability has become less important than the need for qualities such as leadership, intellectual capacity, and strength of personality; but that would be quickly reversed in the case of war.

    One thing is for sure: a woman in this stage will test the male for his skill of being a hunter. This will happen whether you are skilled in hunting animals in the grassy field or company shares in the business field; you can be sure that at the first stage of manipulation a woman will test you.

    A woman will always test a male who she is sexually attracted to. For a psychologically healthy woman, survival and sexual desire must always harmonize with each other. A woman who tests men only for survival benefits — such as a man’s ability to provide — is denying her sexuality. A woman who tests men only for their sexual appeal, is either planning to live her life without men, or is being self-destructive.

    Seeking Communication “Open up to me, please.”

    Once a woman has tested the male, and is relatively sure that he is strong enough to serve her purposes, her concern begins to revolve around making the man serve her exclusively. Many men who are relatively strong and pass the tests of the first stage, fail to understand the meaning of this second stage. This stage is extremely difficult for the average man to detect. It is instinctually and often unconsciously masked by the woman as a purely innocent attempt to “communicate” with the male.

    It is a feature of the feminine psyche to appreciate communication above all else, but from an evolutionary point of view what the female of our species is really doing at this stage is using language to befuddle her partner, which will hopefully cause him to serve her and her purposes.

    This stage is extremely important to the success or failure of couple relationships. Couple therapy fails so frequently because it tends to disregard the real, evolutionary meaning of this stage. A very common pitfall for couples is when the woman starts to feel that the man is displaying an inability or unwillingness to “communicate properly” with the woman. Modern couples therapy almost invariably places the blame for this supposed lack of communication squarely on the man’s shoulders.

    In the first stage, the woman has screened out the weaker males; the man was specifically chosen by the woman for a relationship. In this second stage, the woman acts as if she is seeking deeper communication with the man. A strong man will start to sense that an attempt is being made to weaken him, and he will then usually react with certain predictable behavior patterns. He may get angry or he may withdraw. Arguments that seem to the man to be based on nothing logical at all will often occur at this stage.

    Putting Him to Work

    “Honey, please take out the trash and wash the cat, and please hurry!” When and if a man opens himself emotionally up to a woman — in the sense of what we discussed in the preceding subsection — from that point onwards the woman effectively owns the frame of the relationship. Now, the active destruction of attraction can begin in earnest, as she starts her attempts to take over aspects of the man’s life which directly affect his material interests. For example, purchase decisions can now be made “jointly” which, in the cool light of rational analysis, really are the result of the woman’s manipulation attempts and the man’s desire to maintain some semblance of peace in the household.

    Female Evolutionary Selfishness

    “I am never satisfied no matter what you do or how hard you try.” This stage begins once the woman has succeeded in having her formerly-strong male open up to her emotionally. In this stage, any communication with her male partner is only for the purpose of deriving something useful for her and her children. At this stage she will exhibit a total disregard for the man’s psychological and material interests. The man will be put under the power of a strong and constant psychological double bind, along the lines of:

    “If you don’t open up to me I am not satisfied. You don’t communicate with me.”

    simultaneous with

    “As soon as you open up to me I will use the information you provide in a totally selfish way for my own needs.”

    Either way, the end result for the male is usually guilt, shame, or confusion, finally giving way to resentment and anger. Assuming he takes her seriously — and most men do — he will get caught into an ongoing psychological mechanism, which will make him weaker and weaker, with terribly-negative results for her sexual attraction towards him. At this stage, he is no longer the strong male she admired at the beginning.

    Female Self-Determination

    “I am full grown, independent woman now.” Of course, the female in the relationship never was a “little girl.” In the self-determination stage, however, another double bind — even more powerful than the preceding — will be thrown at the male. Once he starts to seek out the emotional communication that she had been asking for all along, she will begin to express sentiments such as she is feeling oppressed, or that the man is boring, or that he is too nice, or that he doesn’t understand her, and so on. Again, the usual effect of such feminine expressions on the man is bewilderment, shame and guilt.

    If at this point the man decides that he does not care at all about what she says or does, she will assert that “he is not a loving husband/boyfriend” or “I cannot live with him because he does not understand me,” or “I do not feel anything for him anymore,” or “sex without communication is a turn off”; once again inducing some very negative feelings within the man.

    In the Self-Determination Stage, the female expresses her resentment and dissatisfaction with the relationship. This happens virtually without exception in the case of male partners who have become progressively psychologically weaker with time.

    Men who are able to pass through these stages without a corresponding decrease in their women’s sexual attraction towards them are exceptionally-strong men. These men avoid becoming psychologically weaker through the process. We believe that such men are more the exception than the norm. It is much better for nature to first create attraction between a male and a female and soon after have it decrease. That helps to ensure both a safe upbringing of the offspring as well as more sexual interactions with other sexual partners, which in turn results in more offspring and a wider spreading of genetic materials.

    This is not much different from what happens with many animal species, including species where the female kills the male after copulation. In the case of humans, this “killing” happens on the psychological level. The killing of human males by their female partners is largely symbolic, but we must also take into account those men who take this process so seriously that they start to destroy their health through the abuse of alcohol or drugs, or start to abuse their partners, or even murder their partners or commit suicide.

    In other words, permanently-monogamous sexual relationships are not necessarily natural. They are partly a modern, social construct. Or, put another way, they are a social construct, the evolutionary purpose of which lasts for as long as Nature considers it useful.

    Manipulation End-Game

    In traditional, male-dominated societies, if the female cannot leave the relationship when her attraction evaporates through the process discussed above, the end result is often clinical depression and/or cheating. Clinical depression occurs when her sexual attraction for her mate decreases or dies out completely, and she is prevented from having sex with other males by social restraint. The woman in this case has to face a practically impossible conflict between her emotions, which demand sexual satisfaction, and her societally-restrained behavior, which prohibits sexual satisfaction.

    In modem, politically-correct societies, a common end result of the manipulation process is the woman ending the relationship, or acting in such a way that the man has no other choice but to end the relationship. Infidelity is very likely to happen in either case.

    Psychological counseling and family therapy usually fail to help couples in this situation because they start from the shaky assumption that exclusive committed relationships are always “healthy” and that having sex with different partners is “sick.” They also fail miserably in detecting the slow and dangerous psychological process whereby the mind of the male is confronted with schizophrenic double messages from the female, which would be considered to fit the clinical definition of Borderline Personality Disorder by most experienced clinicians on the planet.

    Usually what happens in therapy and psychological counseling in the western world is that the male is made to be the scapegoat of a process which has been actively maintained by the female. There are some professionals who understand this process better than most, but they often do not have the courage to speak out about it. On a meta-level, what is happening with this social process is simply another evolutionary mechanism, one which allows for more pregnancies and for the upbringing of children in the most viable way possible.

    There is certainly a strong cultural influence at work here and it behooves men to understand these forces and to work hard to make themselves strong men who do not succumb easily to female manipulation. Above all, a man with children should start from the premise that he is an equally important and vital link to a child’s psychological well being. There are countless studies which show that statistically, children do better in every social and psychological respect when they enjoy the equal influences of a healthy male and a healthy female parent.

    Although the onset, intensity and order of occurrence of each of these stages in the betaization process may vary from woman to woman, in our experience this process has occurred in every long-term relationship we are familiar with: ours, our friends, and our families, and in countless case studies that we have researched. In fact, this process is exactly the means by which women turn short-term relationships into long-term relationships. However, female manipulation is not difficult to counter once a man understands the process. Let’s revisit each stage in turn.

    Testing never ends. Women test unconsciously. Testing is the woman’s primary method for determining congruency and for discerning a man’s authenticity; his ability to be genuine. Testing ceases to be an issue of any significant consequence when the man is fully congruent — both internally and externally. The woman will still always test, but once a man has it together, he will pass the woman’s tests without much effort or even realizing he is being tested.

    Since testing is so closely related to the mechanisms controlling sexual attraction, it is important to remember that testing never ends. Maintaining an appropriate level of attraction within any romantic relationship is very important. One way we, the authors, maintain attraction with our mates is through regular, social interaction with other attractive females. For more information on why maintaining friendships with the opposite sex is important to your relationship, please see Chapter 19, “Male Qualities Attractive to Women.”

    Seeking Communication is really her signal that she is suffering from emotional ambiguity. Most men view a woman’s pronouncement of “I don’t feel we are communicating” as a logical statement addressing the exchanging of facts — or a lack of such activity — between two people. It is not. It is an emotional statement involving her confusion and emotional disconnection from the relationship.

    When the woman puts the blame on the man, this is normal, for two reasons. For one, women habitually blame their own emotional distress on external factors, thus absolving themselves from responsibility. When a man happens to be the most convenient “blame receptacle”, then he gets the blame. The second reason she does this is that she is actually making a request for masculine leadership. She wants her man to step up and deal with her out-of-control emotional state with mascvi-line strength, and without fear.

    The only important word in any such statement coming from a woman is “feel.” It’s so important that in many cases it doesn’t matter what she feels, as long as it’s any emotion stronger than indifference. Anything with passion will do, as long as it’s followed up, in all cases, with the appropriate level of physical commitment. And always make sure that intense displays of passion are followed by intense displays of affection. Let’s be blunt: keep her well-sexed.

    Being Put to Work can be stopped simply by saying “no.” Do it sometimes. Just say no! If your woman has become habituated to your instant obedience, then refusing a request is going to stop her in her tracks. She will literally not know what to do. Lots of drama could ensue, so be prepared.

    Another way to handle her constant requests is in a spirit of teasing and fun. You can gently make fun of her being “bossy,” and so forth.

    Yet another effective way to handle a woman’s attempts to put you to work is to negotiate with her. For example, if she demands that you take the kids shopping for clothes, you can kindly request that she prepare a special meal while you are gone. While tit for tat may seem thoroughly unromantic, by the time a man is in this situation, we believe the romance is far gone anyway. There is nothing to lose, and your self-respect to regain.

    Best yet, be proactive and act like a leader: women want to feel useful and contribute to something meaningful. Spend some time to give your female counterpart meaningful work, ensuring that yon are the one who determines the direction of the family. You will find that agreeing on specific tasks becomes much easier. When you appreciate a good woman for her specific contribution, she will be delighted in her relationship, and feel she made an excellent selection in a man.

    Evolutionary Selfishness is understandable when we consider that the female’s primary concern is always for her own well-being and that of her children, It is difficult — if not impossible — for most women to feel altruistic or merciful towards a grown man. Your role as the man is to be her protector, or to get out of her way. However, as a strong protector you have great value in the eyes of a healthy woman. So the key here is to assert your value and put a price tag on your leadership of her and the family. This means simply that you lead the relationship and continually give her tasks within the context of the relationship.

    Putting a price to your leadership also means having your own moral standards, whereby it’s subcommunicated from the beginning and throughout the relationship that you, as a man, expect certain behaviors and certain types of treatment from the female, if she is to retain your interest in being her leader and protector. As we discussed in the chapters on Screening and Female Self-Esteem, certain women, obviously, will never he able to submit to male leadership, no matter how strong you are.

    Self-Determination This stage is a very strong signal from the woman that — in her mind — the relationship has ended, or is about to end. She is effectively telling you that she no longer views the two of you as a unit. As difficult as it may seem, at this stage you may need to be prepared to let her go. Your best chance to salvage the relationship may be to start right back at the beginning; let her know that you are equally prepared to leave the relationship if you are not getting the respect and admiration that you want and deserve.

    You never want to be in a position where you are chasing or begging a woman. Not only is that a pathetic position for a man to find himself in, but any shred of sexual attraction that had remained in the woman will be completely destroyed by such actions.

    In reality, a man can survive just about anything, including the ending of a cherished relationship. Therefore, consider this stage as the ultimate test of how much of a man you really are. If you fail this test, the game is over with this particular woman.”

  80. @Rollo

    I think I’m TOO guarded about everything. Even as a child, it was RIDICULOUS to me that women wanted me to act more vulnerable (BE LIKE THE GIRLS). I sort of rebelled against it by going too far in the other direction, and I have a hard time dropping my guard and just being chill with other people (including other dudes).

    Like I don’t want to be a crying emoting faggot lol. I just want to have conversations in which I feel comfortable and people get along and are cool and everything.

  81. Rollo’s right, even if I had been able to retrieve my relationship with game it wouldn’t have been worth it. I can see that in retrospect. Maybe if she was a really awesome girl and the thing started from complete scratch without any intention on my part years later lol. But in this case nah, she was a sweet girl and I LIKE her but she has real issues. She’d be deadweight for me and my missions.

  82. @Dutchman

    Are you typically smarter than most other people you find yourself in conversation with?

    “Like I don’t want to be a crying emoting faggot lol. I just want to have conversations in which I feel comfortable and people get along and are cool and everything.”

    False dichotomy. There are more emotions than weepiness and comfort.

    Realize that small talk isn’t about talking, it’s about calibrating first, and about creating openings for people to express their personality second. It’s not meaningless.

  83. @Rollo, thanks for that post. I feel I have a good understanding of that dynamic I’m stuck in already though. Not sure what actionable items I can take from that post.

    @forge, well, I didn’t know red pill when I married, so I went 12 years without it. I was no pushover beta, but I went on autopilot thinking my provider role should be enough to keep things hot. lol. I didn’t know red flags to look out for. She’s the kind of girl that has guy friends and little girlfriends. Her father died young and she felt that her mother didn’t care enough and that’s why she feels her grandmother really raised her. She’s too inhibited, and I told her I think she has some kind of odd sexual repression she’s not telling me about. When we first met though, it was like those throw each other against the wall and rip clothes off kind of attraction. We were so tuned into each other that we could fall asleep together within two minutes of spooning. Really had a wonderful connection.

  84. And let me also add that this is very difficult because if I could, I’d be nutting 2-3 times a day. With that kind of sex drive, you can see why it’s extremely hard for me to keep my anger in check.

  85. “Are you typically smarter than most other people you find yourself in conversation with?”

    Not to be a douche but yes.

    “Realize that small talk isn’t about talking, it’s about calibrating first, and about creating openings for people to express their personality second. It’s not meaningless.”

    I know, I just seem to only have only two modes “cocky/funny” and guarded/stoic.” I SUCK at “chill/in the moment” which is what I think is missing.

  86. @dutch

    Me: (not wanting to just be an entertainment monkey) poorly timed, overly detailed boring personal stories

    I would suggest eliminating the overly detailed boring person stories with quick emotional hit stories. You should have a bunch of these saved up, and pick the most appropriate for the occasion. These stories do not need to be true. In Avengers: Age of Ultron the Don Cheadle character is using a story like this at a party.

    Time these stories to be about two minutes, and try them out by yourself and in a various social settings. These are like elevator pitches, except instead of selling, you are making emotional hits.

    “I just broke up with my girl friend. Well I think I did, she was screaming and shouting that I shrunk all her sweaters in the wash, which, yeah I sort of did, but they would now look nice on her dog. Just then the dog started to bark, and she flipped out on both me and her dog, telling us both to get the fuck out. Sheet, just buy some sweaters that don’t shrink, like the one you’re wearing. I gotta go back there tomorrow and see if the dog’s okay, but tonight let’s party!”

  87. Here’s another story, see if you can guess where it came from.

    “So my friend just called me. He think his wife is cheating on him, so he plants a voice activated recorder in his car. He gets home, listens to it on earphones, and hears her talking to him on the phone, then when the call is over, she shouts to herself MOTHERFUCKER, MOTHERFUCKER, I’M GOING TO KILL YOU MOTHERFUCKER. Shit like that. Then he goes downstairs and she is all sweetness and kindness and she says I made you some soup. So he calls me and goes I just ate the soup! So I hope the fuck I’m not a witness at her murder trial, do you think he should have had the soup?”

  88. “Not to be a douche but yes.”

    Lol figured, this is a common dynamic. I only ask cause I’ve been there and it’s fairly predictable.

    This changed for me (still effort some times, but the skill is there) when I got a job that required me to talk to all sorts of people for 15-20 minutes each for a big chunk of the day. Occasionally it would just happen that small talk would turn into a good convo, and after a while I started to recognize how it was happening. Both people need to be open to engagement, but people usually are.

    If you’re a smart guy, a lot of people’s conversation will seem inane. And so you amuse yourself by being witty and funny, calling forward the absurdity in what you’re hearing. Or you draw back, unable to empathize, bc the flow of thought is too slow for you. What you need to do is find things you can tell about that are interesting to both you and the audience per redlight’s suggestion, and also to cultivate an ability to be interested in other people for their perspective and experiences – even if you think they’re silly or something. Try to learn what it’s like to be that person.

    I was talking with a lady a while back who’s a tai chi student, was into esoteric yoga, and worked as a ‘zodiac researcher.’ I had a great time talking with her simply because her ideas and experiences were so far removed from my own, and because it was interesting to see what went into that sort of life, and what sorts of legitimate ideas she could nonetheless draw from a deeply flawed set of base principles.

    Now, some people are more boring than that. But many people who seem boring are really just ‘guarded/stoic’ just like you lol.

  89. @redlight

    That’s actually a great idea. There’s some fucking crazy stories we here on these boards, why not use them?

    It’s funny, if you say it’s someone you know on the internet people think it’s lame. But if you just don’t mention that, and tell the same true story, people think it’s awesome.

    It also removes the issue I have with most of the crazy stories I could tell – my social groups are intertwined enough that I can hardly tell stories about people I know without gossiping or maligning others.

  90. @ Forge: I have that problem – almost all conversations (small talk) are inane to me. That is even with other highly intelligent people. How do you manage not to get bored? Sometimes I just want to get out of there but that would be considered rude etc.

  91. @SJF —

    Great long comment there. It pretty much perfectly describes how a typical contemporary “equalist” marriage works.

    I’ve confronted women in equalist marriages about this online, and they basically say: “Well, we discuss major decisions and make them together, we’re a team!”. When I follow with “How many decisions are made where you don’t get your way?”, usually the response is: “Well, it’s not about keeping score like that! I mean, as long as we discuss and agree, why does it matter if almost all of the time he agrees with me? Why are you so paranoid and insecure?” and so on.

    Gents, that’s what an equalist marriage actually *is* — women manipulating men and owning the relationship under the guise/mask/appearance of “discussing everything together” and “making joint decisions”. Women *own* that scenario, they just *own* it. Plays into their wheelhouse, as the long quote in SJF’s comment details very well. Never embrace that dynamic.

  92. SJF:

    The “communication” part reminds me of one of Warren Farrells old books, where he notes that women say they want a sensitive man, who communicates (think it was Farrell). Basically an Allan Alda. So what if the man sat on the edge of the couples’ bed, crying and saying he wanted to talk about how he just lost his $50k job.

    How many women would dig that? Be all sensitive and understanding to it.

  93. All these musings are somewhat valid but they can only be taken seriously by men who have committed themselves to the subjugation of the female imperative. Rollo’s analysis is of the social dynamics experienced by a man who allows himself to be trapped within the frame of that subjugation. Just considering theses feminine influences, reflects personal concern of them. That concern cannot be entertained unless the man places personal importance upon them from a relatively self imagined inferior position. Otherwise the man really doesn’t give a shit. The man who is free of this is the man who is indifferent. Indifference is not defiance. Defiance reveals aknowledgment of the others power and fear of that power. Fear of subjugation can only occur after aquesence to the knowledge of that power. In this context the power of another only exists if it is allowed to exist in the mind of the less powerful. The man gives up his power and accepts her power over him. Otherwise there is nothing to fear and the man is his own leader, really doesn’t care what her agenda is except that he only allows her into his frame if her agenda serves his interests.

  94. @NBTM

    I get what you mean, but power isn’t just something that happens inside of people’s heads. FI influences have genuine power in our society apart from what you may think or not think about it.

    I may not agree with (hypothetical example) eminent domain, but that doesn’t make it disappear when the gub’mint comes knockin’ at my door.

    It’s true that many of the ways the FI has assumed power is through social conditioning, which does exist in your head and is therefore hypothetically reversible. I fully encourage such reversal. But some things you can’t change with a change of perspective.

  95. @walawala: “i had an “open relationship” with one of my plates. We banged for around a year. She banged other dudes, I banged other girls. I didn’t ask any questions. But once at a party I walked into a store room to toss a beer can and she was blowing a dude I knew.”

    Hehe! Damn! It is what it is mate…we are men. As RP men especially, we embrace our nature….in essence for me this means that even if I have 10 plates I don’t share any one of them.
    Men are naturally polygynous, an “open relationship” was just women and the FI trying to rewrite one of our cardinal rules, trying to curtail our ability to create dread naturally.

    It was bull in the 70s and it still doesn’t fly now….

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